1 Wednesday, 14 November 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.32 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is the case
7 number IT-04-84-T, the Prosecutor versus Ramush Haradinaj et al.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
9 The Chamber explains the late start by quite a lot of paper to be
10 digested, and sometimes it's better to do it before the court -- before
11 the hearing starts.
12 I'd like to deal very briefly with a few procedural matters first.
13 For the first one it will not take much time, but I have to go into
14 private session for a moment.
15 [Private session]
11 Page 10697 redacted. Private session.
22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 The Chamber would like to now give a statement concerning the
1 Prosecution's motion to admit the statement of Witness 1 into evidence
2 pursuant to Rule 92 quater of the Tribunal's Rules. The Chamber has
3 considered the motion and the Chamber has taken a decision on the motion.
4 The decision, the gist of it is, that only parts of the statements are
5 admitted into evidence. The decision of the Chamber will be delivered in
6 writing, and that written decision will indicate precisely which parts
7 will be admitted and will also give the reasons for the decision.
8 Nevertheless, the Chamber might be -- the parties might be in need of some
9 guidance in view of the upcoming testimony of Mr. Versonnen. Therefore, I
10 inform you already - and this is not the decision, but this is just a
11 brief explanation of what the gist of the decision is - the parties are
12 informed that the Chamber will admit those parts of Witness 1's statements
13 that directly relate to the alleged abduction of this witness and his
14 wife. Not necessarily to include all the details of ill-treatment that is
15 dealt with in these statements, ill-treatment on that day -- or I should
16 rather say during that night.
17 Further, the parties are informed that the Chamber has in one
18 respect not finally made up its mind, that is, as to what extent those
19 portions of the statements that deal with forced labour, digging trenches,
20 whether that should be admitted or not be admitted. This is -- this
21 concludes this statement, and again I emphasise that it's mainly for
22 guidance of the parties that we give this statement because we want to
23 write down our decision in detail.
24 Having dealt with that, I move on to another procedural matter
25 which is the deadline for the Defence to respond to the admission of
1 P1212, which is the Human Rights Watch report. We have invited the
2 submissions of the Defence, but we didn't give any deadline for that. The
3 Chamber has in mind to put a deadline Thursday, close of business, that's
4 tomorrow. Is that -- would that -- I see that it does not find strong
5 opposition, therefore the deadline is set at Thursday, this week, at close
6 of business.
7 Then the next matter is there was an exhibit, P1228, that is, if I
8 could call it a Dunjic exhibit. The Chamber would like to know whether
9 there's any objection against admission of P1228.
10 MR. EMMERSON: Would you mind if we return to that a little later
11 in the afternoon?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's -- it's a photograph. I take it then
13 that you'll come back to it soon.
14 MR. EMMERSON: We want an opportunity just to check the exhibit.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I move on to the -- as a matter of fact,
16 it's a photograph of two ladies.
17 MR. EMMERSON: I do recall, it's most unlikely that we will object
18 to it --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but we will hear further from you.
20 Then I move on to the next item, that is, P1181 has been uploaded
21 again, but now in a slimmed-down version and it is now on e-court under 65
22 ter number 2173. We're not at this moment discussing admission of that,
23 but the Chamber would like to give to the Defence an opportunity to verify
24 whether all elements of P1181 has now in a new version been uploaded,
25 whether all documents that were already exhibited are taken out, and
1 whether no new ones are added so that we could then proceed and replace
2 P1181 by this newly uploaded, slimmed-down version.
3 Then next issue I'd like to briefly deal with is the latest
4 disclosure discussion.
5 In view of the next witness, Mr. Guy-Smith, the Chamber received
6 courtesy copies of two letters you've sent to the Prosecution, one before
7 you had received the English translation, one after you had received the
8 English translation. This appears to be exculpatory evidence. Of course
9 the Chamber hasn't seen it. And I think it was our latest ruling on the
10 matter that if material lately disclosed was inculpatory, that consent of
11 the Defence should be obtained before following the Rules and disclose it
12 to the Chamber as well.
13 I've got no idea what it is. I also, for very practical reasons,
14 would like to inquire with the Defence whether the Defence considers it
15 where we have received, I would say, in one line what the information is
16 about, whether it makes any sense to disclose this material to the
17 Chamber, as the Rules require.
18 Mr. Guy-Smith.
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, I think it makes sense to disclose the
20 information to the Chamber, as the Rule requires.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes --
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: Because I'm sure it's also going to be at some
23 point the subject matter of some other type of discussion.
24 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it that the original is in German?
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: You may, yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: And as before, when it's in German we were not in
3 a position to provide a translation. I trust that that's not going to be
4 a problem at all I don't think.
5 JUDGE ORIE: This Chamber has no problems in reading German.
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: There is a translation in English, we don't know
7 of the accuracy of the translation but --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps it would be good that this translation would
9 be provided to the Chamber as well, so that we -- although we are not the
10 ones to check, but it would be obvious errors in there, then we might
11 notice that.
12 Mr. Emmerson.
13 MR. EMMERSON: At some point - and I'm very much in the Trial
14 Chamber's hands as to when that point most conveniently arises - but
15 certainly at some point prior to cross-examination it's going to be
16 necessary to have some discussion about this document, and it might be the
17 most convenient thing would be for the Trial Chamber to have an
18 opportunity to look at it over the first adjournment and for the matter
19 then to be dealt with after evidence in chief has been concluded.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 Mr. Re, is there any possibility that German and preferably also
22 English version of the newly disclosed material is available for the
23 Chamber during the next break?
24 MR. RE: It's electronically on its way as we speak.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's good.
1 Then finally, a new revised version with as far as Legal Officer
2 of Chambers could verify with correct redactions of the 92 ter statement
3 of Witness 69 has been uploaded. And at first -- the first impression is
4 that now also the B/C/S version is -- appears to be correctly redacted.
5 So therefore, the Defence can have a look at it under 65 ter number 1720
6 so that everyone is prepared if it comes to admission of this 92 ter
8 Mr. Re.
9 MR. RE: I understand that someone from the Prosecution sat with a
10 Legal Officer from the Trial Chamber to make sure that the two matched
11 earlier --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and of course now --
13 MR. RE: -- and were given to the Defence --
14 JUDGE ORIE: -- it's also for the Defence to verify whether now
15 the new version also reflects what the Defence understands was the
17 Then, having dealt with all that, I think we could -- we could
18 invite the Prosecution to call its next witness.
19 MR. RE: The next witness is Avni Krasniqi. Before he comes in,
20 the issue is how to present the evidence. I think we had one hour on the
21 estimate of the evidence in chief, but that was of course before he was
22 subpoenaed and then indicted. I have -- did have an intention of trying
23 to present it through the provisions of 92 ter, based upon a statement he
24 gave to -- as a suspect in Kosovo on the 30th of January, 2006, under the
25 provisions of Rule 92 ter it would have to be a statement, that is, a
1 statement could be of course a question-and-answer statement as long as it
2 is verified or signed by the witness or attested to by the witness.
3 I understand the Defence is objecting to our proceeding on that
4 basis, I assume on the basis that it's not a statement within the Rules.
5 It's certainly not a transcript of proceedings before this Tribunal. In
6 my submission, it could be admissible if the witness adopts it or signs
7 it. I haven't had a chance to speak to the witness. We have provided --
8 I hope the witness has been given a copy of it. We attempted to get one
9 through the Office of Legal Aid and Defence to the witness at the
10 Detention Unit this morning in Albanian some hours ago and his lawyer has
11 a copy of it, Mr. Pestman, as well. We would make the application if the
12 Trial Chamber is of the view that it is admissible under that section, of
13 course, if the witness adopts it; if not, I will call the evidence orally.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.
15 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. We do object to the use of the suspect
16 interview within the provisions of Rule 92 ter, not only because in our
17 submission it doesn't meet the requirements of sub-paragraph (a), which
18 require it to be in the form of a written statement of evidence given by a
19 witness in proceedings before the Tribunal or in the form of a transcript
20 of evidence given by a witness in proceedings before the Tribunal.
21 Moreover, the fact is that at the time this suspect interview took
22 place, Mr. Krasniqi was the subject of a criminal investigation by UNMIK
23 into his complicity in the abduction and death of Sanije Balaj. It
24 followed discussions which had taken place that morning with the public
25 prosecutor about the potential for him being declared a cooperating
1 witness and being given an immunity, and he subsequently testified at
2 trial and some of the testimony that he gave differed from the contents of
3 the interview.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Give me one second, Mr. Emmerson.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, you were explaining the objections, and
7 I wanted at that time already to consult with my colleagues to see whether
8 there was any further need to -- may I take it that other Defence counsel
9 join in the objection?
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, that's correct, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, the circumstances under which the, at that
12 time, suspect was interviewed are such that the Chamber considers it not
13 to be appropriate to use the statement as put on paper at that time, to
14 use that for 92 ter purposes. So you're invited to elicit the evidence
15 viva voce, orally.
16 MR. RE: Will do. I just -- just make one small point, and that
17 is that the only reason we were attempting to use that rather than the
18 transcript was that -- of the trial proceedings in Kosovo was because we
19 didn't have an Albanian transcript, whereas we had an Albanian transcript
20 of that interview. Just to answer any concern that we were trying to
21 prefer one over the other, we weren't. It was just a matter of there
22 being Albanian translation or transcript. So I call Mr. Krasniqi --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. --
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I could have but one moment to confer with
25 counsel before the calling of the witness. There may be one other issue
1 that arises as a result of something Mr. Re has just said. I just want to
2 double-check with my colleagues.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
6 [Defence counsel confer]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith.
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you for the opportunity to confer with my
9 colleagues. I'm looking forward to seeing the witness.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 Then, Madam Usher, I think with the assistance of security could
12 you please escort the witness into the courtroom.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, there was one issue whether Mr. Krasniqi's
15 Defence counsel could be present. The situation in which Mr. Krasniqi
16 finds himself at this moment, that is, being an accused in a contempt case
17 and being a witness in the Haradinaj case -- being detained as well
18 creates a situation in which the Chamber allows Defence counsel to be
19 present too, but his role of course would be limited to advising his
20 client on any procedural matter that would arise, such as the right to
21 remain silent, not to answer questions, unless compelled by the Chamber.
22 And then, of course, then the answers not to be used against him. These
23 type of matters not the substance of his testimony, of course.
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: That is -- the matter just raised by the Trial
25 Chamber with regard to the presence of Defence counsel with the underlying
1 matter, that being the situation which he particularly finds himself in
2 does cause me some concern procedurally with regard to how best
3 appropriately to proceed --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What I suggest is the following, that if
5 Defence counsel would like to consult with his client on any such matter
6 which arises out from the examination of him as a witness, that he'll make
7 clear to me that he would like to raise an issue, either with the Chamber
8 or with his client; that we then ask Mr. Krasniqi to take off his
9 earphones. That then Mr. Pestman will be given an opportunity to explain
10 why there's any need at that moment to intervene to the extent of course
11 that it could be explained in public, and then we'll see how this
12 develops. But we'll take a very cautious approach because Mr. Pestman
13 would not be here to intervene in the examination of the witness on any
14 other ground than in relation to the complex legal position the witness or
15 the accused finds himself in.
16 Is Mr. Pestman already in the courtroom? If not -- I would like
17 Mr. Pestman to be seated in a place where there's no direct eye contact
18 with the witness.
19 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
20 [The witness entered court]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Krasniqi. You appear today as a
22 witness in this courtroom, a witness who is under an obligation to answer
23 to questions that are put to him. Unless he would incriminate himself,
24 then that witness may address the Chamber and ask whether he should answer
25 that question. But if you answer a question and again you're supposed to
1 answer them unless there's any specific reason why you would not answer
2 them, if you answer questions it should be fully in accordance with the
3 truth; that means the truth, the whole truth, nothing less, and nothing
4 but the truth.
5 The solemn declaration you'll have to make for that purpose, the
6 text of that solemn declaration will now be handed out to you by Madam
7 Usher. And I'd like to invite you to make that solemn declaration.
8 Could you please read that aloud.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do you mean I have to read this?
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you have to give a solemn declaration that
11 you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, and I
12 invite you to read this aloud because that is your solemn declaration.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A solemn declaration. I solemnly
14 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Krasniqi.
17 Mr. Pestman, you are present in court. You are Defence counsel
18 for Mr. Krasniqi in another case pending before this Tribunal. The
19 Chamber allows you to be present. Your role, however, should be limited,
20 strictly limited, to any matter of self-incrimination. Therefore, if your
21 client would need advice on that specific issue or when you feel that
22 there's a strong need to advise him on these matters, you may address me.
23 If you do so, just give me a sign. We'll then ask Mr. Krasniqi to take
24 his earphones off, and then you can explain why there is a strong need at
25 that moment, if need be, in private session, but then you can explain to
1 the Chamber; and then the Chamber will decide whether or not you're
2 allowed to consult with Mr. Krasniqi. Is that procedure clear?
3 Mr. Krasniqi, you will first be examined by Mr. Re, who's counsel
4 for the Prosecution in the case in which you testify, that's the case
5 against Mr. Haradinaj, Mr. Balaj, and Mr. Brahimaj.
6 Mr. Re, please proceed.
7 WITNESS: AVNI KRASNIQI
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 Examination by Mr. Re:
10 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Krasniqi. Is your name Avni --
11 A. Yes, good afternoon.
12 Q. Is your name Avni Krasniqi?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Were you born on the 18th of May, 1969?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Were you born in Vranoc, in Kosovo, and do you still live there?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And is your occupation auto mechanic?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And did you testify on the 16th of May this year in a trial in
21 Kosovo against Idriz Gashi, also known as Galan or Galani, for the murder
22 of Sanije Balaj?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. I want to make it clear, I'm only going to ask you questions about
25 what happened there. I'm not asking you any questions about the case in
1 which you are an accused yourself. Do you understand?
2 A. Could you repeat that again, please.
3 Q. I'm not going to ask you anything about the contempt of court
4 charge. I'm only going to ask you about what happened in Kosovo in 1998,
5 and in particular in relation to Sanije Balaj. Do you understand that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. I want you to confirm that since your arrival in The Hague, I
8 think on Saturday, you haven't had any contact with anyone from the
9 Prosecutor's office, that's my office, except to see us in court several
10 days ago on your initial appearance?
11 A. You mean before I came here?
12 Q. No, since you got here on Saturday. I want you to confirm to the
13 Court that you haven't spoken to anyone from the Prosecutor's office.
14 A. That day when I appeared in court myself.
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, because we're in somewhat of a unique
16 position, to the extent that Mr. Krasniqi is represented by counsel and
17 there were any conversations between the Prosecutor's office and counsel
18 which were communicated to Mr. Krasniqi and there was any communication
19 from Mr. Krasniqi through his counsel to the Prosecutor's office, then his
20 lawyer operates as an agent for the Prosecution's office, and that needs
21 to be clarified.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, of course you could seek clarification
23 of that issue. It's not a question that Mr. Re has put to the witness at
24 this moment himself. I also can imagine that you -- because I take it
25 that you are -- you would like to be informed about any such matter if it
1 has taken place. Then of course you could either ask the witness or
2 perhaps find out in other ways which doesn't take court time.
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: I appreciate that.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: But to the extent we have already received late
6 disclosure and there may well be other late disclosure and this could well
7 be a Rule 68 issue and there's an agency concept that exists, I thought I
8 should raise it now before anybody was led astray as to what anybody's or
9 position may be because we're in such a unique situation.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I'm aware of that. I think it could be initiated
11 before court and the Chamber even has considered whether we should inquire
12 into it prior to the testimony of the witness. But certainly I do
13 understand that you would like to find out and there will certainly be a
14 way to find out.
15 Please proceed, Mr. Re.
16 MR. RE: My question is directed solely to whether the witness has
17 spoken to anyone in the Prosecutor's office before coming to court and I
18 was seeking an answer to that.
19 JUDGE ORIE: No, I think I understand that.
20 Mr. Krasniqi, you might be a bit disturbed in your concentration.
21 What Mr. Re asked you is whether since you arrived in The Hague whether
22 you had any conversation with any member of the Office of the Prosecutor,
23 or whether you only saw them when you were in court.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I only saw my lawyer.
25 JUDGE ORIE: And no one from the Office of the Prosecution, I take
1 it from this answer?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I met somebody from the Tribunal the
3 first day when I came here.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but that was not someone from the Prosecutor's
5 office, if I correctly understand you?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand the question. I
7 don't know what you mean by that.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's try to resolve this to the extent
9 possible by agreement, Mr. Guy-Smith, and perhaps also the other questions
10 that are -- Mr. Emmerson.
11 MR. EMMERSON: Can I just make the practical suggestion that we
12 carry on with the witness's testimony --
13 JUDGE ORIE: That's what I --
14 MR. EMMERSON: -- and when there's a break perhaps we can have
15 five minutes longer than normal and we can inquire of Mr. Re for full
16 disclosure --
17 JUDGE ORIE: That seems to be a very practical approach.
18 Mr. Re, please proceed and let's go to the core of the --
19 MR. RE: I will. Although I indicate there is no disclosure
21 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, let's go back to 1998 and May of 1998. Were you
22 living in Vranoc in May 1998?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Were you working then?
25 A. Up until one month before Vranoc was attacked, I was working, yes.
1 Q. When was Vranoc attacked?
2 A. Vranoc was attacked on the 29th of May.
3 Q. What were you doing in the month before Vranoc was attacked?
4 A. I had a private firm.
5 Q. You said you were working up until a month before. What's the
6 significance of that? I want to know what you were doing in the month
7 before Vranoc was attacked.
8 A. As I said, I had a private firm. I had trucks and I transported
9 gravel and shingle for construction work or to build canals or things like
11 Q. Were you in the FARK or the KLA before your village was attacked?
12 A. Before our village was attacked, there was an organization carried
13 out before the village was attacked. There were volunteers who formed a
14 staff that would defend the civilian population.
15 Q. Were you one of those volunteers?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did you have arms?
18 A. For the moment when we formed this staff, we did not have enough
19 weapons, but weapons came I think 10 to 15 days after that.
20 Q. Approximately when was it that you formed this -- you people
21 formed this staff?
22 A. It was in May, 14th or 15th of May, I'm not sure.
23 Q. How many people were involved in forming this staff?
24 A. In the forming of this staff you mean, well, the whole village or
25 all the villagers were ready to protect ourselves.
1 Q. In terms of numbers, how many are you talking about?
2 A. Well, there were many, but I don't know how many because we did
3 not have lists. But there were many volunteers.
4 Q. When you say "many," I mean, are you talking about 10? 50? A
5 hundred? A thousand? What sort of figures?
6 A. About 20 or 25 people.
7 [Prosecution counsel confer]
8 MR. RE:
9 Q. Now, you said about 10 to 15 days after the staff was formed you
10 received weapons. What sort of weapons were they and where did they come
12 A. These were weapons that came from Albania. There were people who
13 were authorised to go there and bring the weapons.
14 Q. What sort of weapons were they and how do you know they came from
15 Albania? Or in other words, which people were authorised to go there and
16 bring them?
17 A. People went there voluntarily and they were authorised to go and
18 get the weapons and bring them back in order to protect and help the
19 civilian population.
20 Q. Did you go to Albania to collect weapons?
21 A. No.
22 Q. What sort of weapons were brought back to your village, type of
23 weapons and quantities, please?
24 A. Kalashnikovs, we called them Kalasha.
25 Q. And ammunition for them?
1 A. Yes, yes. Not a lot, whatever they could bring for those weapons.
2 Q. What about heavier weapons, did you have those as well?
3 A. No, there were no heavy weapons.
4 Q. And were each of the 20 to 25 people referred to as volunteers,
5 did each of them receive a Kalashnikov?
6 A. There were not enough to go around. Some did receive weapons,
7 some didn't.
8 Q. Did you have uniforms at that point?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Who was organizing bringing the weapons to your village?
11 A. I don't know who did the organization. I know that the weapons
12 came from Albania, they were collected there.
13 Q. Who was the commander of your village staff?
14 A. Din Krasniqi.
15 Q. Do you know who he reported to, who his leader was?
16 A. Well, Din had good relations with Ramush Haradinaj.
17 Q. Are you saying he reported to Ramush Haradinaj?
18 A. Well, Din was head of this staff and he was obliged to have
19 contacts with Ramush.
20 Q. What contact was he obliged to have with Ramush?
21 A. I don't know.
22 Q. Did your village staff obtain the weapons before or after the
23 attack on your village on the 29th of May?
24 A. Some of the weapons were there before Vranoc was attacked; after
25 the attack, other weapons came.
1 Q. Who attacked your village, was it the Serbs?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What did they do?
4 A. They attacked at 5.00 in the morning. They burned down 42 houses
5 and they also burned my excavator. Four civilians were killed, some
6 people were wounded.
7 Q. In your statement of the 30th of January last year, you said 22
8 houses. Did we hear 42 or 22?
9 A. No, it was 22. I saw that I confused it. I said 42, but it was
11 Q. All right. Describe the attack. What did the Serbs do? You said
12 they burnt down some houses, your excavator, and civilians. How did they
14 A. They attacked the main points where our guards were,
15 Gani Krasniqi, Astrit Krasniqi, and Komir Krasniqi, who protected the
16 population because they were there, guarding the civilian population, the
17 civilian population could escape.
18 Q. Did the -- were the guards armed with the Kalashnikovs you
19 referred to a moment ago?
20 A. Yes, of course. Yes.
21 Q. Did they fight back when the Serbs attacked?
22 A. No.
23 Q. What was their response to the Serb attack, that is, the guards,
24 what did they do?
25 A. Well, their reaction was to raise the alarm and notify the people
1 that we were being attacked, and whoever heard that an attack was being
2 launched, they started to leave.
3 Q. Before the Serbs attacked, was the village staff in control of
4 your village of Vranoc?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did your village staff resist the Serb attack on the 29th of May;
7 and if so, how?
8 A. There was no resistance in the proper sense of the word, because
9 the weapons and the ammunition we had was not sufficient to react against
10 the enemy.
11 Q. And had there been a Serb or a government police station in your
13 A. No, no.
14 Q. When did the Serbian officials leave your village?
15 A. That day, at about 2.00 or 3.00.
16 Q. A moment ago you said the village staff had been in control of the
17 village before the Serb attack. What I'm asking you was: Before the
18 village staff took control of the village, when did the Serb officials
19 leave it?
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.
21 MR. EMMERSON: That's --
22 JUDGE ORIE: One moment -- one second, please. One second.
23 MR. EMMERSON: It may be a bit like the question: When did you
24 stop beating your wife.
25 MR. RE: Well --
1 MR. EMMERSON: It makes the assumption in the question that there
2 was Serb officials inside the village, at the moment as far as I
3 understand it, there's no testimony to that effect.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re.
5 MR. RE:
6 Q. Had there been Serb officials in your village at any point before
7 May 1998?
8 A. No.
9 Q. You described the Serbs attacking the village on the 29th of May.
10 How long did the attack go and what happened -- last for, and what
11 happened afterwards?
12 A. Well, the attack continued until midday. Some villagers came from
13 other villages as volunteers to help us. One of them was Rrustem Tetaj,
14 who came to assist with some of his soldiers.
15 Q. Did Rrustem Tetaj and his soldiers resist the Serbs on that day?
16 A. I did not see them when they came. I saw them later.
17 Q. Do you know anything about whether they resisted the Serbs on that
18 day, that is, whether there was a fight between the Serbs and Rrustem
19 Tetaj and his soldiers?
20 A. Rrustem came after the attack at about 12.00, that's when he came.
21 Q. Where were the Serbs by then when Rrustem Tetaj and his men
23 A. The Serbs were in the village with their machinery.
24 Q. Well, what -- was there any conflict between Rrustem Tetaj and his
25 men and the Serbs after he arrived?
1 A. I don't know.
2 Q. How long did the Serbs remain in the village for?
3 A. Until 2.00 or 3.00.
4 Q. In the afternoon?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Was it Serb police or military or a combination?
7 A. There were army people, paramilitaries, policemen, they were all
9 Q. Did you see them yourself?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What sort of weaponry did they have?
12 A. That day -- well, I couldn't recognise all the weapons from afar,
13 but they had tanks and APCs, military vehicles. I couldn't recognise what
14 handguns they had.
15 Q. And how many do you think there were or what -- how many do you
16 think you saw there?
17 A. Many.
18 Q. Can you give an estimate, 10, 20, 100, 500?
19 A. Well, I think there were a hundred, 150 soldiers and policemen all
21 Q. After this attack and houses were burnt down and people were
22 killed, did the Serbs leave the village?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Was it then again under the control of the village staff after the
25 Serbs left?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You said you had become one of the volunteers. I want to ask you
3 about the formalisation process of arming and becoming part of the KLA or
4 the FARK. I want you to tell the Trial Chamber about that.
5 A. Could you repeat the question again, please, it's not clear to me.
6 Q. Did you become involved in the KLA or the FARK yourself?
7 A. In the beginning I was in the KLA. The commanders then agreed
8 with each other and then I joined the FARK.
9 Q. Can you just give us some dates for this, when it was that you
10 were in the KLA and then you joined the FARK.
11 A. I joined the FARK after the military barracks were established,
12 but I don't know the dates.
13 Q. Were these the military barracks in Baran?
14 A. Yes, one of them in Baran and the other one in Prapaqan.
15 Q. And the one in Baran, was that in the school?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You said you're not sure of the dates, what about the seasons?
18 Was it summer? Autumn? Spring?
19 A. It was July I think, if I'm not mistaken.
20 Q. What was your assignment?
21 A. Some people were selected to be soldiers, some were selected to be
22 military policemen. The commander of the police was Hasan Gashi and the
23 military police had the duty to keep the army under control so that the
24 soldiers would be disciplined. That was it.
25 Q. Are you saying that you joined the military police?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did you have a uniform?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What was it? Describe the uniform.
5 A. It was a multi-coloured uniform, it was a German uniform. Some
6 people had different uniforms from mine. Not all the people in the army
7 had the same uniform because there were not enough uniforms to go around.
8 Q. How many people were in your military police unit?
9 A. I don't know the number. Well, I would say about 15 or 20.
10 Q. What about patches, did members of the military police unit wear
11 patches; if so, what were they?
12 A. The patches were KLA patches.
13 Q. Did you wear a KLA patch yourself?
14 A. I can't remember whether I had it on my uniform, but I remember
15 that I had one on my cap.
16 Q. What weapons were you and the military police issued with and
18 A. Kalashnikovs.
19 Q. The military police unit you've been referring to, was that based
20 in the military barracks in Baran?
21 A. It was based in the Shkolla e Kuqe, the red school, that's where
22 the barracks were, but the military police was in a different place from
23 the main barracks.
24 Q. Where was it, how far away was it and in what building was it,
25 that is, the military police headquarters?
1 A. We call it Shkolla e Kuqe, which is, the red school.
2 Q. Who was the commander of the barracks, that is, the soldiers and
3 the military police there in July 1998?
4 A. Nazif Ramabaja, Musa Draga and Esat Ademi were in Baran, while the
5 commander of the police was Hasan Gashi.
6 Q. Was Nazif Ramabaja the commander?
7 A. In the military barracks in Baran, yes.
8 Q. And just describe very briefly your duties as a military police
9 officer, what did you do?
10 A. I was not an officer, I was just a policeman.
11 Q. What did you do as a military policeman?
12 A. Our tasks were to keep the army under control. They were not
13 allowed to do whatever they wanted. That was what we had to do.
14 [Prosecution counsel confer]
15 MR. RE:
16 Q. I'm going to ask you now about Sanije Balaj. Were you related to
17 Sanije Balaj?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What was your family relationship to Sanije Balaj?
20 A. As far as I know, my father is a cousin of her uncle's on her
21 mother's side.
22 Q. How well did you know her?
23 A. I knew her from before. I knew the whole family.
24 Q. Are you saying you knew her by her first name and she knew you by
25 your first name?
1 A. I knew Sanije Balaj, her brother Shaban Balaj, and her relatives,
2 I know them.
3 Q. I'm going to ask you about what happened to Sanije Balaj. I want
4 you to tell the Trial Chamber about your seeing her at the military
5 barracks and what happened. Okay?
6 A. Can you repeat the question, please.
7 Q. I'm going to ask you about Sanije Balaj and what happened to her,
8 okay? And I want you to go to a day when you saw her at the military
9 barracks and I want you to start at the beginning. Where were you when
10 you saw her the first time on that day?
11 A. Okay. There were some of us, policemen, we were sitting and
12 drinking a soft drink and we saw two policemen who had taken Sanije Balaj
13 and they were accompanying her to the barracks. They were taking her
14 somewhere in the barracks to Nazif Ramabaja, probably, but I don't know
15 where they took her.
16 Q. When was this?
17 A. What do you mean when?
18 Q. Was it 1998? When was it?
19 A. Yes, yes.
20 Q. When in 1998? You said you were a military policeman there in
21 July. When was it in relation to when you started working there as a
22 military policeman.
23 A. It must have been in August.
24 Q. Was it day?
25 A. It was in the afternoon.
1 Q. Who were the two police who were taking Sanije Balaj to the
3 A. I can't remember who stopped her and who took her there -- well,
4 the person who interrogated her was Cufe Krasniqi. The thing I can speak
5 about is only after she was interrogated and on.
6 Q. Who were you with when you saw her being brought into the
8 A. I was together with some soldiers, Hysen Ukaj, Ahmet Ukaj,
9 Nexhat Gashi and other policemen, some of them were killed and others I
10 don't know their names.
11 Q. Where was Sanije Balaj and the two --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.
13 MR. EMMERSON: The witness has just mentioned the names of three
14 people. I wonder if we could have some clarification about the second
15 name he mentioned and its relationship to a witness who testified
16 yesterday. I see the way it appears on the transcript.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. RE:
19 Q. Is that the Ahmet Ukaj you referred to yesterday, is he the Ahmet
20 Ukaj from Vranoc who was born in July 1968 [Realtime transcript read in
21 error "1958"] and testified here, I think, yesterday. Is it the same
23 A. Well, this date, 1958, I don't think this is the Ahmet I mean.
24 Q. I said -- it appears as 1958, I thought I said 1968.
25 A. Okay, yes, 1968.
1 Q. The same Ahmet Ukaj who was in the military police?
2 A. Yes, yes.
3 Q. Where was Sanije Balaj and these two other police coming from when
4 you saw them going to the barracks?
5 A. There was a kiosk or a shop where we bought things there, food,
6 and drinks, cigarettes, and they brought her in that direction and went
7 towards the school where the military barracks were.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, one of the previous questions triggered by
9 Mr. Emmerson still is puzzling me. You asked whether it was the same
10 person, and since the year of birth was corrected to 1968, I think this
11 witness would know that we're referring to a person of approximately 40
12 years old.
13 Now, you suggested that the witness would be aware that he was a
14 witness in this courtroom. Could we verify whether the witness is aware
15 of that, because otherwise we have only 40 years old, nothing else, and
16 that might be a not-too-solid basis to draw such conclusions.
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. RE:
19 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, do you hear Judge Orie's question, are you aware
20 that someone called Ahmet Ukaj born in 1968 testified here yesterday and
21 he was from Vranoc and is that the same person you're talking about?
22 A. Yes, yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: These are two questions, the first whether you are
24 aware that he gave testimony. You were aware of that?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I saw him on TV last night.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. RE:
4 Q. You said you were aware that she was -- Sanije Balaj was
5 interrogated by Cufe Krasniqi. How do you know that?
6 A. At the place we were sitting, we were in front of the school and
7 Cufe was in inside with her in a room. And I don't know what they talked
8 about or how he interrogated her.
9 Q. Do you know how she came to leave the room?
10 A. Yes. When Idriz Gashi, Galani, came and he went inside and spoke
11 to Cufe, I don't know what they talked about, then Galani came outside
12 with Sanije Balaj.
13 Q. Let's go back. Did you know Idriz Gashi, Galani, before that day?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now, Idriz Gashi, Galani, did you see him go into the school?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Tell the Court what you saw.
18 A. I saw Idriz Gashi entering the office where Cufe was with her.
19 Q. Where did he come from to go into that office?
20 A. He stopped the car at the kiosk. He stopped there for two or
21 three minutes. Somebody told him that a person had been arrested, and
22 when he heard that he went inside. So he went to a side door of the
23 school. That's where the entrance was, the gate. I cannot say that I
24 could see him entering the office when the entrance was on another side,
25 but I could see it.
1 Q. Do you know why he went to that office?
2 A. No, I don't.
3 Q. Did you see him come out of the office?
4 A. When he came out with Sanije Balaj.
5 Q. Describe what you saw when he came out with Sanije Balaj.
6 A. He came out with Sanije Balaj. He had a little notebook, it
7 looked like a white notebook, and he was swearing at us. He said, How can
8 you allow a person who is a suspect and that is interrogated and this
9 person has in her notebook names of criminals, Serb criminals. We knew
10 some of the names who were policemen in Peje. I remember some of the
11 names, and we kept silent, we didn't say anything.
12 Q. Do you remember the names now?
13 A. Some of them I remember of the Serb policemen, such as Salipur
14 [phoen], Borelovici [phoen], and I don't know the surnames, I'm sorry, but
15 there were five or six Serb names that he mentioned but I remember these
16 two best.
17 Q. Did he show you the names in the book or just tell you the names
18 were in the book?
19 A. Well, he pointed to the notebook and he said, Look at the names
20 and look at the phone numbers, but we could not see what was written there
21 from where we were.
22 Q. Where was Sanije Balaj when he was talking to you and, you said,
23 swearing at you?
24 A. She was behind him.
25 Q. Was there anyone else with him?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Was he armed?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What weapon did he have?
5 A. He had a Kalashnikov and a pistol.
6 Q. Was he in uniform?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Describe his uniform.
9 A. That day he was wearing a black uniform with a cap, but it was not
10 black, it was of a different colour and with the KLA patch on it.
11 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Excuse me, did I understand "a black uniform" or
12 "the black uniform," what did you say?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That day the uniform he was wearing
14 was black, but his cap was not black, it was of a different colour.
15 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
16 MR. RE:
17 Q. What was his position? You said he was wearing a KLA -- he had a
18 KLA patch. What was his position in the KLA?
19 A. He was commander of Lugu i Drinit, that's what he said, that he
20 had been appointed by Ramush Haradinaj and Sali Veseli and we respected
21 him as the commander of Lugu i Drinit, who contributed and who was a good
22 commander. But look what happened later.
23 Q. What was Ramush Haradinaj's position at that time?
24 A. At that time Ramush Haradinaj was commander of the Dukagjin Plain.
25 For a short period Tahir Zemaj was commander and then after that again
1 Ramush Haradinaj was commander.
2 Q. How long was Sanije Balaj inside the school before you saw her
3 come out with Idriz Gashi?
4 A. She stayed in the barracks for about one hour, one and a half
5 hours, because her cousin was waiting for her, to take her home.
6 Q. Did she leave with her cousin to go home?
7 A. No, no. No, it's wrong -- well, she was waiting for her cousin to
8 come and take her home, but it happened differently, as you know,
10 Q. That's what I want you to tell the Court about what happened
11 differently. Now, Iber Krasniqi, was he there? Iber Krasniqi.
12 A. No.
13 Q. Where was -- what about Cufe Krasniqi, was he there when she came
14 out of the building with Idriz Gashi, Galani?
15 A. Cufe was inside the building with Sanije Balaj when Idriz Gashi
16 came, and Idriz Gashi went inside. I don't know, I was not there, to tell
17 you what they talked about. But what I know is that Idriz Gashi and
18 Sanije Balaj came outside. Whether Cufe went towards the school, I don't
19 know, because from the place we were sitting we could not see.
20 Q. Now, after Idriz --
21 MR. RE: I'm in the Trial Chamber's hands.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Re, you are, we had a late start and
23 therefore if you could find a suitable moment in the next --
24 MR. RE: That's a suitable moment for me.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll have a break and resume at 20 minutes past
2 --- Recess taken at 3.56 p.m.
3 --- On resuming at 4.23 p.m.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, please proceed.
5 MR. RE:
6 Q. Before we broke you were -- you said that Sanije Balaj was outside
7 with Idriz Gashi waiting for her cousin to take her home. Now, I'm just
8 trying to work out whether it appeared to you from that that she was
9 actually free to leave at that point.
10 A. No. Sanije Balaj remained inside with Cufe Krasniqi. When Idriz
11 Gashi arrived, Sanije Balaj remained inside because she was allowed to
12 return home.
13 Q. All right. Look. What I'm just after is when you said you saw
14 them outside, did you see Cufe Krasniqi say anything about whether or not
15 she was allowed to stay or go?
16 A. We were outside, then we learned that she was allowed to return
17 home and then her relatives are waiting for her to take her home, but in
18 fact she remained inside with Cufe, in the office of the police.
19 Q. Do you know whether Cufe released her?
20 A. Yes, we knew that, that she had been released.
21 Q. That Cufe had released her?
22 A. I don't know who released her from the military barracks,
23 Nazif Ramabaja or somebody else, I don't know about that.
24 Q. Do you know whether Cufe had any role in her release?
25 A. I don't know.
1 Q. Now, let's just go back to where you were outside when she came
2 outside. What happened after Idriz Gashi had the notebook, started
3 swearing at you, and told you about the names of the Serbian police in
4 that notebook, what happened then?
5 A. We went out, Sanije Balaj and he had that notebook in the hand,
6 and he said, How do you allow these to be released and return home? And
7 he read out the names of the Serbian police to us.
8 Q. And then what did you do, what did Idriz Gashi do and what did
9 Sanije Balaj do?
10 A. Sanije Balaj was behind Idriz Gashi. Idriz Gashi ordered me,
11 said, Take it to the Gllogjan headquarters, and then I obeyed to -- his
12 order and then we went to Gllogjan.
13 Q. Gllogjan headquarters of what?
14 A. It was the command of Ramush Haradinaj.
15 Q. Why did Idriz Gashi order you to take Sanije Balaj to
16 Ramush Haradinaj's headquarters in Gllogjan?
17 A. I don't know.
18 Q. Why did you obey his order?
19 A. Because I couldn't say no because he was my superior and I had to
20 obey his order, and anyone else who would have been told so would have
21 done so as I did.
22 Q. Who was he reporting to?
23 A. Who he was reporting to? Can you please repeat the question once
25 Q. Who was Idriz Gashi reporting to that you had to obey his orders?
1 A. He was reporting to the UCK command.
2 Q. You said earlier that Ramush Haradinaj was the commander in the
3 Dukagjini Zone. Was Galani reporting to Ramush Haradinaj or someone else?
4 A. Well, he was a military superior and he was appointed to that post
5 and he was reporting to Ramush Haradinaj and Sali Veseli and we respected
6 that. We don't know to whom he reported or with whom he had any contact
7 because we were in the command of Baran.
8 Q. Who appointed him to that post, do you know?
9 A. No, we did not know that.
10 Q. Did he say why you had to take Sanije Balaj to Ramush Haradinaj's
11 headquarters in Gllogjan, that is, what the reason was to go there?
12 A. No, he did not give any reason, and whether it would be sent to
13 Ramush Haradinaj but that it would be sent to the Gllogjan staff and we
14 never asked him why or how.
15 Q. A moment ago you said: "I obeyed the order, then we went to
17 Did you actually get to Gllogjan?
18 A. No. Probably you understood it not in the proper way. I did not
19 go to Gllogjan. He sent a car to send her to Gllogjan.
20 Q. I don't quite understand your last answer. Can you clarify that?
21 You said: "He sent a car to send her to Gllogjan." Who is "he"?
22 A. He ordered me to take the car and then drive Sanije Balaj and
23 Idriz Gashi to Gllogjan.
24 Q. Was there a car?
25 A. Yes, it was the car of the military police.
1 Q. What sort of car?
2 A. It was a red Golf.
3 Q. Who got into the car?
4 A. It was myself, Sanije Balaj, and Idriz Gashi.
5 Q. Who was driving?
6 A. Myself.
7 Q. Where was Sanije Balaj and where was Idriz Gashi in the car?
8 A. Sanije Balaj was in the back seat of the car and Idriz Gashi was
9 in front seat.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 MR. RE:
12 Q. Did you drive in the direction of Gllogjan from Baran?
13 A. Yes, yes.
14 Q. Was Sanije Balaj aware that you were taking her to
15 Ramush Haradinaj's headquarters in Gllogjan?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Was she aware of why she was being taken there after --
18 A. No, probably because she was going to be interrogated or I don't
19 know why.
20 Q. Was there a connection with the notebook that Idriz Galani --
21 Idriz Gashi, Galani, had in which he said were the names of Serb
22 policemen, was there a connection between that and the trip to Gllogjan
23 for the interrogation?
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: At this time I'm going to interpose an objection;
25 it calls for speculation at this time.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can you repeat the question again,
3 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps in a way in which no speculation is sought.
4 MR. RE:
5 Q. Were you aware of any connection between the notebook, the Serb
6 names, and the trip to Gllogjan for the interrogation at
7 Ramush Haradinaj's headquarters?
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, apart from the fact that that question --
9 apart from the fact that that question is leading --
10 JUDGE ORIE: One second, one second, Mr. Krasniqi.
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: The way it's put now, it's leading. I mean, we're
12 shortly going to get to the point where the bell -- where it will be
13 impossible to unring this bell, but we haven't reached that point yet.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, it is a leading question. Would you please
15 reformulate it.
16 MR. RE:
17 Q. You said probably she was going to be interrogated. What was she
18 probably going to be interrogated about as far as you knew?
19 A. About the notebook with the names of the Serbian policemen, and
20 I'm sure that it would have probably been about that notebook.
21 Q. How far did you get on your drive between Vranoc and
22 Ramush Haradinaj's headquarters?
23 A. We went about 3 to 4 kilometres, 5 maybe, I don't know. We were
24 driving the car and the road was -- it was not an asphalted road, but that
25 it took us probably 20 minutes or something like this, but I'm not sure
1 about that.
2 Q. Did you stop?
3 A. Yes. When I was driving the car in the direction of Gllogjan and
4 then was told, Stop the car here, I stopped the car. And he spoke with
5 Sanije Balaj. They went outside the car. And after 40 minutes we --
6 sorry, after 40 seconds we reached to -- heard shots.
7 Q. Where did you stop? What was the location where you stopped?
8 A. It was at Lugu i Isufit, as we call it in the mountains of Vranoc.
9 Q. Why -- do you know why you were ordered to stop the car there?
10 A. I don't know.
11 Q. You said they went outside the car and about 40 seconds you heard
12 shots. Where did they walk to?
13 A. No, I did not get out of the car. I remained inside the car.
14 Only Idriz Gashi and Sanije Balaj got off the car, went out of the car.
15 Q. Did Sanije Balaj come back?
16 A. No. And I did not believe that this would have occurred.
17 Q. Where did they walk to?
18 A. They went in the direction of the mountains.
19 Q. You said in the direction of the mountains. What was the -- were
20 there plants there like trees or bushes or any geographical features?
21 A. The area was mountainous and I don't know what was the aim of
22 taking her there, it was his order, and they got her out of the car and in
23 40 seconds I heard three shots. Then when returned from the mountains I
24 said, What did you do? And he looked at me that I was a bit confused and
25 he said, Don't worry, the same -- he said, If you say something, then the
1 same fate will happen to you as well.
2 Q. You heard some shots. What was he armed with?
3 A. He had Kalashnikov and a white pistol.
4 Q. What was he doing with the pistol when he came back?
5 A. The cartridge was still there, and when he came inside the car and
6 then he just put the pistol down slowly.
7 Q. Were the shots you heard Kalashnikov shots or pistol shots?
8 A. They were shots from the pistol.
9 Q. Was anyone else around?
10 A. We saw some shepherds around who were there with their cattle, but
11 they were very far away. And I do not know who might have been there in
12 that area.
13 Q. Were there any children?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Can you remember how many?
16 A. No.
17 Q. And what happened when he got back in the car and said, Don't tell
18 anyone or you'll suffer the same -- the same fate will happen to you, what
19 did you do then? Where did you go?
20 A. After that, I took him to Baran and I left the car of the staff.
21 I took my own car and then went home. I was very concerned and upset and
22 I went home to rest.
23 Q. Do you remember whether -- just going back for a moment, whether
24 Idriz Gashi spoke to the children that you said were around when he came
25 back from shooting Sanije Balaj?
1 A. Can you repeat the question again, please.
2 Q. Do you remember whether Idriz Gashi spoke to any of the children
3 before or after going off with Sanije Balaj?
4 A. I do not remember before or after, but I remember that he yelled
5 them and then said, Go away, told them, Go away, but I can't remember
6 whether it was before or after that.
7 Q. And what was Sanije Balaj wearing?
8 A. She was wearing a short skirt, white and black; she had white
9 shoes, but I cannot remember anything -- any colour -- any other colour of
10 her clothes because I probably didn't watch very closely.
11 Q. I'm going to show you a photograph and ask you if you can tell us
12 anything about it?
13 MR. RE: Can we please be shown photo Exhibit P804, it's the fifth
15 Q. It's going to come up on the screen, but while that comes up I'm
16 going to ask you: Did she have a handbag or any accessories with her?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did she take it with her when she went with Galani?
19 A. No.
20 Q. All right. Now, there's a photograph on the screen of a dress.
21 Was that the dress she was wearing or does it look like the dress she was
23 A. It might have probably been that.
24 Q. Does it look like it?
25 A. Yes, black and white, it seems so.
1 Q. What about the notebook, where was the notebook? What did Galani
2 do with this notebook he had before?
3 A. Galani took the notebook with him and I don't know any further.
4 Q. Now, you said you went home. What happened after that?
5 A. I took Galani to Baran. Then I took my own car and went home to
6 rest. I was very upset and very concerned, and this is the reason I went
7 back home.
8 Q. Do you know where Galani went after that?
9 A. No. I don't know where Galani went, but afterwards I heard that
10 he met Mete and then he quarrelled with him, and then Mete asked him,
11 Where did you leave that person? He said -- he said he sent her to
12 Gllogjan. And then he had a few words with -- quarrelled with him because
13 then he was not allowed to -- he -- she could not come back to the
14 military barracks.
15 Q. Mete, is that Mete Krasniqi?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Was it Mete who told you about this?
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.
19 MR. EMMERSON: I'm reluctant to interrupt, but that really is a
20 very leading question. It would be extremely helpful if Mr. Re could
21 explore the basis for the witness's knowledge of this particular
22 interchange for reasons that will become apparent.
23 MR. RE: That's what I was doing.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, in a leading way. You could have asked who has
25 told you or how did you learn. Please proceed.
1 MR. RE: Okay. Okay. I didn't realize that was an issue, but
3 Q. What's your relationship with Mete Krasniqi?
4 A. He's my brother, Mete is my brother.
5 Q. And he's deceased?
6 A. He was killed after the war.
7 Q. Mete told you, according to what you just said, that he had
8 quarrelled with Galani. When did he tell you this and when did he say
9 that they had quarrelled?
10 A. Mete had quarrelled with Galani because of the murder of Sanije --
11 the killing of Sanije Balaj, and because they quarrelled, then Galani at
12 one point said, I killed her, there's nothing you can do about it.
13 MR. EMMERSON: I think we must be at cross-purposes because the
14 objection was to Mr. Re specifically putting to the witness that his
15 brother Mete had told him about that conversation, and that's exactly what
16 he's done the second time. So it must be that he mustn't have understood
17 my objection to the leading question. Could he please just explore with
18 this witness what the basis is of his knowledge of that conversation
19 between Mete and Galani.
20 MR. RE:
21 Q. If it's not clear, Mr. Krasniqi, who told you about the quarrel
22 between your brother Mete and Galani?
23 A. There were also other policemen there when they quarrelled. It
24 was not only Mete and Galani, and they debated and it was a big deal why
25 she was killed in that way. And then he said, I killed her, what can you
1 do now? If someone asks about her, then you tell my name and tell those
2 people who killed her.
3 Q. Who told you this?
4 A. It has been like this.
5 Q. Who told you about the quarrel between your brother Mete and
6 Galani? Was it your brother or someone else or a combination of people
7 who told you about that quarrel?
8 A. This has been a combination of all people who had heard about it.
9 It was like this, and also Galan also told about the presence of the
10 police there because he said he had killed her and if someone asks who
11 killed her just tell them my name. He told it not only in the presence of
12 Mete but there were other policemen there. I do not know who else was
13 there from the policemen.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krasniqi, there seems to be the following
15 problem. You describe a situation where your brother and Galani are
16 quarrelling, and as you said in the presence of policemen. Now, were you
17 present when this happened?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Then who told you that this happened? Was there one
20 person or were there more persons who told you about this event?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When Mete came home, he told me
22 about this, that it happened like this, why Galani killed her. And then
23 he told me how it happened and how he killed her.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Did anyone else also tell you the same story or was
25 he the only one who told you?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it was Mete, but I also heard it
2 from other people, but I cannot remember who was from the policemen there
3 when they had that conversation.
4 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Sorry, I have also a short question, Mr. Krasniqi.
5 It was translated that you said: "When Mete came home, he told me about
6 this, that it happened like this, why Galani killed her." Did he tell you
7 the reason why Galani had killed her or the fact that Galani had killed
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When he came he wanted to know -- he
10 quarrelled with Galani there and Galani had told me, and this is -- he
11 said Galani told me this and this and where -- the place where she was
12 killed. This had been -- Mete had wanted to know from him whether she was
13 killed or not.
14 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
15 MR. RE:
16 Q. You mentioned before a person called Sali Veseli. Was there any
17 mention of his name in the context of anything you've just said?
18 A. Galani mentioned that in Baran, in the presence of the police, and
19 in many other places he had said that he had killed her upon the order of
20 Sali Veseli. I don't know what that order might have been or from whom he
21 got the order to kill her.
22 Q. Where was the discussion you're referring to between Mete and
23 Krasniqi -- Mete Krasniqi, your brother, and Galani? Where did they have
24 this quarrel?
25 A. I do not know whether it happened in Vranoc or in Baran, I'm not
1 sure about that.
2 Q. Now, what happened with burying her body? Did you participate in
3 burying her body?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. All right. How did you come to do that?
6 A. Iber Krasniqi and Galani came by car, they took me, and we went to
7 bury her. Iber Krasniqi took us to the place. Galani and myself went
8 there. Galani was armed that night. I went and he -- he actually showed
9 me the place where she was killed, he said, It's there, and he said, We
10 have to bury her. And Hysen Ukaj, Ahmet Ukaj and Zymer Ukaj came at this
11 moment -- or maybe it was Zymer Ademi, I cannot remember the name quite
12 well, cannot remember his family name. And probably there had been also
13 two other people but I don't know them and I don't know who they were.
14 Q. How long after Idriz Gashi shot Sanije Balaj did you go with Iber
15 and Galani, that is, Idriz Gashi, to bury the body, was it that day or
16 another day?
17 A. I'm not sure about this, whether it was that day or another day or
18 it might have been sometime when it's -- became dark, maybe it might have
19 been 7.00 or 8.00 in the evening, I cannot remember that.
20 Q. You said Hysen Ukaj and Ahmet Ukaj and someone else maybe it's
21 Ademi were there and two other people, what were they doing?
22 A. We went to bury her and they -- a child had told them that a
23 killing had occurred. And now I recall that we went to bury her the same
24 night, and they came to see who was killed. And at the time when they
25 came, Galani was there with a Kalashnikov and was pointing the Kalashnikov
1 at them and said, Stop.
2 Q. Where were you when he was pointing the Kalashnikov at them and
3 yelling, Stop -- I'm sorry, and saying, Stop?
4 A. I was burying Sanije Balaj.
5 Q. And what did you do?
6 A. At that moment he ordered Ahmet Ukaj to come and help out, to bury
7 her, in order not to destroy the body or anything else.
8 Q. You said you were burying the body. How were you doing that? I
9 mean, were you digging a hole, for example?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. With what?
12 A. With a spade.
13 Q. Where did you get the spade from?
14 A. The spade was in the car, Iber and Galani had the spade in the
16 Q. Why did you go with them to bury the body?
17 A. Because they took me. Galani said, You should come, and then we
19 Q. Where did they collect you from?
20 A. They collected me from my home.
21 Q. Let's just go back to the burying. You said he -- Galani ordered
22 Ahmet Ukaj to come and help you. What did Ahmet Ukaj do?
23 A. Ahmet Ukaj came and helped me and we buried her. Then we left the
24 scene and we went each to his own home.
25 Q. Did Galani help you bury the body?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Why not?
3 A. Because he did not help me.
4 Q. All right. Now, did you return to the scene? Did you return to
5 the scene?
6 A. How --
7 Q. That is, where the body was buried.
8 A. No, not that day. I do not understand the question quite well.
9 Q. Okay. You said you helped to bury the body. Let's go to that.
10 When you buried it, how deep was the hole and how effectively buried was
12 A. It was not deep. It was 30, 40 centimetres. It was not deeper
13 than that. It was a soft ground, soil, and then we took soil from that
14 area and then we covered her.
15 Q. You said you had heard shots and the body was there and she was
16 wearing the dress you've identified. Where had she been shot?
17 A. I did not see her.
18 Q. You said you helped bury her.
19 A. Yes, it was night. It was very difficult to see where the shots
20 were and it was in a forest amongst the trees.
21 Q. Okay. Now, you left there. You went home. You said you didn't
22 go back the same day. Did you go back to the place where she was buried?
23 A. Only on the day we went to rebury her.
24 Q. How --
25 A. Unearth her.
1 Q. How long after the day you buried her the first time did you go
2 back to rebury her?
3 A. After three days, as far as I can remember.
4 Q. How did you come to go back to rebury her?
5 A. We were at the school, Iber Krasniqi and myself and many other
6 policemen, and Idriz Gashi came with Toger and two other people whom I did
7 not know. And he pointed his finger at me and said, Come here. Because
8 of security I took Iber Krasniqi with me, and then we went and unearthed
9 her together with two other persons, and then we put her in the jeep of
11 Q. Okay. You said you were with -- you were at the school and
12 Idriz Gashi came with Toger. How did they come?
13 A. They came by jeep and parked it in front of the school building,
14 and then Galani addressed me and said, Come here. When I went there he
15 said, We should go and take the body and take it to another place. And I
16 took Iber Krasniqi with me just to help me and because of security
17 concerns. Then we took her -- blanket.
18 Q. Okay. Let's just go back for a moment. I'll come back to that.
19 You said there was a jeep. Whose -- Toger and Idriz Gashi came in a jeep;
20 whose jeep was it?
21 A. I don't know.
22 Q. What colour was it?
23 A. Black.
24 Q. Who was driving it?
25 A. Togeri.
1 Q. Had you seen the jeep before?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Why did you take Iber Krasniqi with you for security reasons?
4 What was your concern?
5 A. I was concerned because I thought it's better than Iber Krasniqi
6 is better -- is present there as well to see what will happen.
7 Q. But you said you had security concerns; what were they?
8 A. That he should come there with me and see what will happen or if
9 something will happen to me.
10 Q. Okay. Now, let's just go back to where we were a moment ago.
11 JUDGE HOEPFEL: And could the witness please go a little closer to
12 the microphone.
13 MR. RE:
14 Q. You said Toger drove you and Iber Krasniqi and Idriz Gashi back to
15 where the body was. What did you do? You said before you had a shovel or
16 a spade. Did you have a spade when you came back to the scene again?
17 A. Yes, the spade -- well, I don't really remember it, whether we had
18 a spade or we were just taking the soil by hands. I don't really remember
20 Q. There was a blanket. What did you do with the blanket?
21 A. Well, we put the body in the blanket, and then we put it at the
22 trunk of the jeep.
23 Q. Where was Toger -- stop there. I withdraw that question.
24 Who dug the body up? Who helped you?
25 A. It was me and Iber Krasniqi and two other people - I didn't know
1 them. Toger was sitting in the car, in the jeep.
2 Q. Why did you go with them to dig up this body and put it in
3 Toger's -- and put it in the jeep that Toger was driving? What was the
4 reason for digging the body up?
5 A. Well, the reason was I really didn't know what purpose -- on what
6 purpose it was done like that. Idriz Gashi said that they were sending
7 her to some other place just to be in a safer place, and I think this was
8 the reason.
9 Q. On whose orders was this being done?
10 A. It was order by Galani.
11 Q. What was Galani's relationship to Toger?
12 A. I don't know.
13 Q. Did Idriz Gashi tell you why Toger was there with him?
14 A. No.
15 Q. You said a moment ago that Idriz Gashi said they were sending her
16 to some other place just to be in a safer place. What was the safer place
17 they were taking the body to?
18 A. Well, I don't know where they took the body to.
19 Q. What were you told about where this safer place may be?
20 A. I don't know. We went to Vranoc, and then I don't know what
21 direction they took.
22 Q. Okay. Now, we've got to the point where the body was in a
23 blanket. Whereabouts in the jeep was it put?
24 A. At the trunk of the jeep.
25 Q. All right. Where did you all go from there with the body? And I
1 take it -- and did Toger drive the jeep?
2 A. Yes. Then we were sent to Vranoc, and I don't know where they
3 went after that.
4 Q. Okay. You're in a car with Toger, Idriz Gashi, Iber Krasniqi, two
5 people you don't know, and a body in the trunk. You went to -- all of you
6 went to Vranoc; is that right?
7 A. Well, Idriz Gashi stayed in Baran, whereas me and Iber Krasniqi,
8 we were ordered to get on the jeep and Toger was with two other people,
9 whereas Idriz Gashi remained in Baran. We were sent back to Vranoc. I
10 don't know where they went after this moment.
11 Q. That was my slip. I apologise. Did Toger drive you back to
12 Vranoc or did you make your own way back?
13 A. Well, we were driven to Bistrica and I don't know -- we were
14 dropped off there and I don't know where he went after that.
15 Q. Which road did Toger take when he dropped you off in Bistrica?
16 A. Well, there is a crossroad there where we were dropped off and
17 there is a way going to Baran and another road going to our house.
18 However, I don't really know whether they got the direction to Gllogjan or
19 to Baran. I don't really know that.
20 Q. Who was in charge when Toger drove you there in his jeep and
21 waited in the car when you, the others, went and dug up the body?
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. --
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: Misstatement of the evidence. The possessive
1 MR. RE: The jeep.
2 JUDGE ORIE: The jeep.
3 MR. RE: The jeep, sorry.
4 Q. Who was in charge when Toger drove you there in the jeep, the
5 black jeep, picked up the body, drove you back, and drove off with the
6 body in the trunk?
7 A. Well, who was in charge? Idriz Gashi was in charge.
8 Q. Who was in charge in the car when Toger drove you in the jeep to
9 dig up the body and then drove off with it after dropping you off? Who
10 was in charge then?
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith.
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, the question calls for speculation, first of
13 all. It also assumes that someone can be in charge of a car. Mr. Re has
14 more than once got information that an individual named -- as far as this
15 witness is concerned named Toger was driving the jeep.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that doesn't -- Mr. Re, you may ask the
18 MR. RE:
19 Q. Please answer the question, Mr. Krasniqi. Who was in charge?
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: It also -- I'm sorry, I apologise, it also assumes
21 facts that are not in evidence that anyone was in charge, and therefore
22 it's also leading.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Guy-Smith, the objection is overruled.
24 Please proceed, Mr. Re.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What am I supposed to say?
1 JUDGE ORIE: Well, to give an answer to the question. The
2 question was when you were in the car whether there was anyone; and if so,
3 who decided or gave instructions or -- I mean at every corner you can turn
4 to the left or the right. Was anyone saying, Let's go to the left or to
5 the right, or was it the driver who silently decided where to go. Could
6 you tell us how this happened?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Galani, when he was dropped off in
8 Galan [as interpreted], the order was that Togeri should take the corpse,
9 and then I was driving from this place to the scene of the crime.
10 JUDGE ORIE: You said "the order was ..."
11 Did someone give such an order?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Galani had ordered.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Re.
14 MR. RE:
15 Q. Did Galani go with Toger as far as you know when Toger drove off
16 with the body in the back of the jeep?
17 A. I'm not sure. I don't know. What I don't know I cannot say.
18 Q. What's Toger's name?
19 A. At that time we didn't know the name.
20 Q. Do you know his name now?
21 A. Now I do know it now.
22 Q. Well, what is it?
23 A. His name is Idriz Balaj.
24 Q. All right. Did you ever hear what happened to the body after
25 Idriz Balaj, Toger, took it away in the jeep?
1 A. No -- well, after the corpse was taken from that place, then the
2 relations between Galani and Mete were not anymore the ones they used to
3 be. I've never have good relations with these persons anymore later this
4 moment and I don't know what happened.
5 Q. What was your feeling and the feeling of other soldiers towards
6 Toger, that's Idriz Balaj, at the time when you took Iber Krasniqi with
7 you for security reasons?
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: Objection, relevance as to the feeling.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And apart from that, what the feeling of others
10 is, Mr. Re, is not something the witness could tell us. I think he could
11 tell us about how he saw other people reacting, and that is a relevant
12 question. So please put that question to the witness.
13 MR. RE:
14 Q. How did other people react to --
15 JUDGE ORIE: And of course the witness himself because it was part
16 of the question as well.
17 MR. RE:
18 Q. How did you yourself react towards Toger?
19 A. Well, we did nothing.
20 Q. You said you took someone with you for security reasons when you
21 went with him in his jeep?
22 A. Yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...
24 MR. RE: Sorry the jeep.
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: I rise for an objection.
1 JUDGE ORIE: And is that -- the jeep has been corrected by now.
2 Is there another objection, Mr. Guy-Smith?
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: He's indicated how he -- he's already I indicated
4 how he reacted to Toger, so it's -- it's been asked and answered. He did
5 nothing. How did he react to Toger, he did nothing. I know precisely
6 what Mr. Re is trying to lead him to, but he's already got his answer.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re is allowed to ask the question in a different
8 form, as he did.
9 Mr. Re, you may repeat that question.
10 MR. RE:
11 Q. My question was: You said you took someone with you for security
12 reasons when you went with Toger in the black jeep.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber why you felt the need to take
15 someone with you for security reasons when you went with Toger in the
16 black jeep to dig up the body?
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: Your Honour, I really -- at this point I have to
18 object and I need to stop the transcript to go back because the reference
19 was earlier made with regard to the issue of security reasons where --
20 MR. RE: I withdraw the question.
21 Q. A moment ago you said that you took Iber Krasniqi because you --
22 "that he should come there with me and see what will happen or something
23 would happen to me."
24 What did you think or fear might happen to you if you did not take
25 Iber Krasniqi with you?
1 A. Yes, I took him just for security reasons. I wanted him to be
2 with me there. This was the only reason I took him with me.
3 JUDGE ORIE: That's not, Mr. Krasniqi, is not an answer to the
4 question. The question is if you take someone for security reasons, one
5 usually has an idea about why there's any need for security at that
6 moment. Could you tell us why you thought that it would be good to have
7 someone there for your security.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I thought when Galan got off
9 the car and ordered me to get on the car alone, I was feeling unsafe. I
10 didn't want to be there alone. And I told Iber Krasniqi, You are coming
11 with me to the place --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- to -- this was the reason, and
14 I've been repeating it several times.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now you said "I was feeling unsafe." Unsafe
16 for -- because of what or because of whom? Could you tell us?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, simply I was not feeling safe,
18 and this was the reason I took him with me.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Was this a kind of, then, unspecific feeling of being
20 unsafe? Is that what your testimony is?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Re.
23 MR. RE:
24 Q. Did you have any fear or not of anyone in that jeep?
25 A. No. I simply was feeling ill at ease and I wanted to have
1 somebody with me.
2 Q. What was Toger's relationship with Ramush Haradinaj?
3 A. I don't know.
4 Q. Do you know someone called Aslan?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did you know someone called Zenun Gashi?
7 A. Zenun Gashi, yes.
8 Q. How did you know Zenun Gashi?
9 A. Well, he used to work at the police force of former Yugoslavia,
10 and often we happened to see in the roads, in the village. He was in the
11 village of Baran -- well, I can't say I didn't know him.
12 Q. When you say "he was in the village of Baran," was he ever in the
13 military headquarters, where you worked in Baran?
14 A. I don't know.
15 Q. When was the last time you saw him?
16 A. Only when he was a policeman -- myself, I mean. I saw him when he
17 was in uniform.
18 Q. Do you know what happened to him?
19 A. I don't.
20 Q. What about Kemal Gashi?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Did you know him or who he was?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Did you ever see any Roma in the military barracks in Baran when
25 you were there?
1 A. No, only soldiers. There were Roma people who were soldiers in
3 Q. Do you know someone called Selin Kelmendi [phoen] from Kosuric?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Was there someone called Ramush from Kosuric?
6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. I'm going to show you a photograph, it's Exhibit P925. There are
8 two photographs I'm going to show you and I want to ask you if you
9 recognise the scenes in them. The first photograph shows a man taking a
10 photograph near a muddy water course with some trees in the background.
11 Was that the area where Sanije Balaj was shot, her body was buried, and
12 then reburied -- sorry, exhumed. Sorry.
13 A. Yes, but this photograph was taken after the war, not at the time
14 it happened, because at that time this place here was covered in woods.
15 MR. RE: Can we turn to the second photograph, please.
16 Q. Does that show the wooded area where Sanije Balaj was taken and
17 shot and her body buried?
18 A. Yes, it shows a part of it from the place it has been
20 Q. Okay. Now, you made a statement on the 30th of January, 2006, as
21 a suspect to an international prosecutor, Mr. Robert Dean, in Kosovo. And
22 I asked you before about Toger and feelings or reactions towards Toger.
23 You said something in that statement about feelings and reactions towards
24 Toger. Do you recall what you said there?
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm not sure whether or not Mr. Re is seeking to
2 impeach his own witness at this time --
3 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know.
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- or he's engaged in some other activity.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Well, perhaps it might help us if we would know what
6 portion of that statement you are --
7 MR. RE:
8 Q. At the bottom of page 19, the number is R0628908 and ...
9 [Prosecution counsel confer]
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I speak?
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so. The question was whether you
12 remembered what you said at the time when you gave that statement.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know how you understand
14 this. I repeated this several times. I took him because I did not feel
15 safe, and I was afraid. That's why I took Iber Krasniqi with me, and I
16 remember having said the same thing in that statement. I probably said I
17 was afraid only in the way that you are putting it to me now.
18 MR. RE:
19 Q. What I'm interested in is who you said you were afraid of which is
20 in that statement. Is it something you've forgotten and which reading
21 this would assist you to -- assist in refreshing your memory?
22 A. I mentioned it several times already. I was afraid and I did not
23 want to go alone with them, and there were these three people and that's
24 why I took Iber Krasniqi with me, I was afraid.
25 Q. In your statement you mention that you were afraid of a person.
1 I'm asking you whether you have forgotten and if reading the statement
2 would refresh your memory as to who it was you said you were afraid of?
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith.
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you --
5 MR. RE: It's not impeachment.
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: He has now indicated on a number of occasions that
7 he remembers what he said in his statement --
8 JUDGE ORIE: No --
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: Therefore -- excuse me, Your Honour, if I may
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yeah.
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: Therefore, what Mr. Re is doing at this point is
13 impermissible for a number of reasons. The first is that it's leading;
14 the second is that it's been asked and answered, he's got an answer to his
15 question. This witness has not indicated any failure of memory
16 whatsoever. Had he indicated a failure of memory that would be a
17 different matter, but that's not what he's done. He's indicated that he
18 remembers his statement and that's what he said. Now Mr. Re is suggesting
19 that he's forgotten something specific and because he's forgotten
20 something specific he may have a mechanism whereby his memory can be
21 refreshed and that is impermissible. Memory refreshment, that is
23 MR. RE: He hasn't answered the question. The question was: Have
24 you forgotten it and if so, would reading --
25 JUDGE ORIE: That question has not been clearly answered,
1 Mr. Guy-Smith. The witness referred not to what he said at that time but
2 he referred again and again to what he testified today. And the question
3 on whether -- but let me just see.
4 Mr. Krasniqi, you heard Mr. Re asking you whether you do or
5 whether you do not remember anymore what you said at the time when you
6 gave that statement which is available to the parties. And Mr. Re
7 indicated that you specified a person people would be afraid of. Do you
8 remember that you said such a thing at the time?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: And could you tell us then what exactly you said at
11 that time about a person people would be afraid of?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, of course Togeri.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Re.
14 MR. RE:
15 Q. Why did you say that people would be afraid of Togeri?
16 A. Well, people were afraid of him.
17 Q. Why were they afraid of him?
18 A. I don't know.
19 Q. I mentioned earlier -- how did you know that people were afraid of
21 A. Well, it was said so. They were afraid. Maybe they did not have
22 any reason to, but I don't know.
23 Q. Who were these people you're talking about, civilians or military
24 people or a mixture?
25 A. Things that were said when people sat together and talked. They
1 said things like this, that they were afraid.
2 Q. What were the reasons they were giving for their fear of Toger?
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: Are we now --
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: He's answered the question.
6 MR. RE:
7 Q. All right. Just for one moment go back to Zenun Gashi. What was
8 his ethnicity?
9 A. He was Roma.
10 MR. RE: That's the evidence in chief.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
12 It is close to time for a break, but I know that Mr. Harvey would
13 like to address the Chamber for a minute, not in the presence of the
14 witness, but I'd like to be informed about what the order of
15 cross-examination will be after the break.
16 Mr. Emmerson.
17 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, I think I shall cross-examine first.
18 JUDGE ORIE: You cross-examine first.
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: I will follow.
20 JUDGE ORIE: You'll follow --
21 MR. GUY-SMITH: I believe --
22 JUDGE ORIE: And then --
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- unless Mr. Harvey wishes to go --
24 MR. HARVEY: No, Mr. Harvey doesn't.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Doesn't.
1 Then could you give us a time estimate?
2 MR. EMMERSON: I would expect cross-examination to take a little
3 time in combination as between myself and Mr. Guy-Smith. And may we give
4 you a precise time after the break, but I would think it inconceivable
5 that one has directed us to do so that we could complete cross-examination
7 JUDGE ORIE: If need be --
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: I would concur in that assessment.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Krasniqi, we'll have a break. There's
10 another procedural issue which is not in any way relating to you which the
11 Chamber would like to hear. So therefore, would you already follow Madam
12 Usher, who will escort you out of the courtroom.
13 [The witness stands down]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey, there was something about witness
15 scheduling which you would like to raise.
16 MR. HARVEY: Yes, Your Honour, you had asked me to provide you
17 with a response after the last break on the scheduling of (redacted).
18 I --
19 JUDGE ORIE: We are in --
20 MR. HARVEY: Sorry, are we in open --
21 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open court.
22 MR. HARVEY: There are --
23 JUDGE ORIE: You would like -- you would give an answer on the
24 videolink scheduled for the 20th of November, isn't it?
25 MR. HARVEY: Well, that was what you asked me --
1 JUDGE ORIE: At least what the request was --
2 MR. HARVEY: That's right.
3 JUDGE ORIE: -- that the scheduling would be the 20th.
4 MR. HARVEY: I raised an additional concern with Mr. Re before I
5 went to speak with my client, which is whether Witness 30 might be
6 rescheduled for tomorrow.
7 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
9 MR. HARVEY: And whether if the Prosecution were unable to
10 reschedule Witness 30 for tomorrow that would be it as far as they were
11 concerned or whether there might be any attempt to reschedule him for some
12 time next week. I understand from Mr. Re that his attitude is they do not
13 wish to let that witness go and want to pursue him by all means available
14 to them.
15 I at this stage have no idea whether there is any potential for
16 that witness to be called tomorrow. If not, whether the Prosecution
17 intends to make an application to have him videolinked next week. Those
18 matters are inextricably linked as far as my client and I are concerned
19 because it is inconceivable that my client would agree to what are
20 arguably the two most important witnesses in the case against him being
21 taken in a week where his senior counsel cannot be here. So I am in their
22 hands to some extent.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re.
24 MR. RE: The updated information I've just got actually this
25 moment is the -- can we move into private session for one moment, please?
1 JUDGE ORIE: We turn into private session.
2 [Private session]
11 Pages 10763-10764 redacted. Private session.
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
19 We'll have a break until 6.00, but we'll then move into private
20 session immediately, although not for a very long time I take it.
21 We resume at 6.00.
22 --- Recess taken at 5.41 p.m.
23 --- On resuming at 6.02 p.m.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Before we turn into private session I'd like to ask
25 the Defence to respond on P1181, which is the slimmed-down exhibit to
1 complete the verification by Friday, this Friday, at noon --
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: And the same that if there are any -- to verify the
4 redactions of the 92 ter statement of Witness 69 by this Friday, noon, as
5 well. This is a more friendly way of setting deadlines, yes, but of
6 course it's the same.
7 Then we move into private session.
8 [Private session]
11 Pages 10767-10776 redacted. Private session.
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
19 Mr. Guy-Smith.
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: The first letter request of information concerning
21 prior convictions of witnesses was sent by me in November of 2006. I'm
22 not sure that the Chamber has a copy of that letter and whether that was
23 one of the letters that was actually in the letters that was submitted
24 during the UNMIK hearing that we had --
25 JUDGE ORIE: I think that was at the time it was filed, and you
1 referred to that letter in your recent correspondence with Mr. Re.
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: Having heard what Mr. Re just said, I would only
3 alert to the Court to the fact that the motion for this witness to be
4 added as a witness was in September of this year. So if we take the
5 assertion made by Mr. Re that they begin their search shortly before a
6 witness is to come and they have been in a position at least for two
7 months to deal with this information which would have perhaps given us a
8 chance to deal with this. And thirdly, and lastly, this is clearly a
9 systemic problem that we have been dealing with throughout this trial and
10 I must say that it has caused an extreme burden on the Defence and an
11 extreme hardship for purposes of adequate and proper preparation.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: With all the prejudicial concerns that we have.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I suggest to the parties that we do not enter
15 into further debate on this matter at this moment and that we -- not to
16 say that it's not justified that Mr. Re gives his reasons for the late
17 disclosure and that you give the reasons why it should have been done
18 differently. That's now clearly on the record.
19 I'd like the witness to be called in again so that he can be
21 Madam Usher.
22 Yes, then there's another matter which I'd like to raise. In view
23 of what Mr. Harvey told us before the break and in view of many, many
24 uncertainties - and when I'm talking about uncertainties, I'm only talking
25 about the uncertainties we are aware of now, I'm not even talking about
1 the uncertainties we might face tomorrow morning or tomorrow at 10.00 or
2 at 11.00 - but in view of all those uncertainties, the Chamber does not
3 rule at this very moment on the motion for the videolink, but allows
4 Mr. Re to continue preparing for it.
5 [The witness takes the stand]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krasniqi, you'll be cross-examined by -- first by
7 Mr. Emmerson, who's counsel for Mr. Haradinaj.
8 And may I urge the parties, all parties, that to try to be as
9 efficient as possible and to focus on the most important matters first.
10 Mr. Re, the Chamber noticed that the first hour of the examination
11 covered an area on which we have already quite some evidence, and
12 especially when we are running out of time. The -- such decisions may
13 have an impact on what happens in the very, very near future.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE ORIE: If there would be any doubt, I was talking about the
16 videolink scheduled for the 20th -- requested to be scheduled for the
17 20th. Please proceed.
18 MR. EMMERSON: Can I indicate with Your Honour's comments in mind
19 that where -- if it becomes necessary to cross-examine in relation to
20 either testimony given at the trial in May or in relation to questions and
21 answers given by this witness during a suspect interview, that I shall do
22 so initially without bringing material up on the screen. But if there's
23 any objection that at any point to the content of what's being put, then
24 obviously that can be dealt with in that way.
25 Cross-examination by Mr. Emmerson:
1 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, I want to make sure I've understood, first of all,
2 your position as of the 12th of August, which is the date that I think
3 we're all agreed was the date on which Sanije Balaj disappeared. At that
4 time you were a member of the military police unit of the FARK brigade at
5 Baran, correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And your brother Mete, your late brother Mete, he was also a
8 member of the military police unit of the FARK brigade at Baran, correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And Iber -- can I be clear, is Iber your brother or your cousin?
11 A. Iber is my cousin.
12 Q. Iber Krasniqi, he was also a member of the military police at
13 Baran, correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And I'm just going to put to you one passage from the testimony
16 that you gave when questioned in January of 2006 by the prosecutor in
17 Kosovo. You were asked about the military headquarters in Baran and you
18 said: "Nazif Ramabaja was the general commander of the military and the
19 police, and then under him were Esat Ademi and another person by the last
20 name Draga, Musa is his first name."
21 Is that a correct statement of the position?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. So you took your orders from Hasan Gashi, who was the commander of
24 the military police at the Baran headquarters. Is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. But all of you were under the command of Nazif Ramabaja?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And now I want to ask you some questions about the very end of
4 this sequence of events and the investigation that was conducted into
5 Sanije Balaj's disappearance. First of all, you know, don't you, that
6 there was an investigation set up by the KLA into Sanije Balaj's
8 A. Yes, at that time.
9 Q. And you were called in for interview by a man called
10 Fadil Nimonaj; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And you were questioned about your involvement?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. By the time that that interview took place, is it correct that
15 Galani had fled the area to your knowledge?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. I'm going to put to you a passage from the evidence that you gave
18 at Idriz Gashi's trial, and then I'm going to ask you some questions about
19 it. I'll read it to you slowly so that it can be translated. You said
20 this --
21 MR. RE: Could we have the page number to assist?
22 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, it's page 44 of the trial transcript.
23 Q. "I was not present, but I remember when Gani Gjukaj came with
24 Ramush Haradinaj to find out what had happened. Sanije's family were
25 asking where the corpse was and who killed her. I was not there, but the
1 late Mete Krasniqi told them who killed her ..."
2 A. That's what happened.
3 Q. Thank you. And did you learn about that conversation from your
4 late brother Mete?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. I want, please, to pull up Defence document 1D140026, which is a
7 statement or interview of Gani Gjukaj by UNMIK dated the --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, do you intend to tender that?
9 MR. EMMERSON: I do intend to tender that.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then it needs a number.
11 Madam Registrar that would be number ...?
12 THE REGISTRAR: That would be D220, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. Marked for
14 identification at the moment.
15 Please proceed.
16 MR. EMMERSON:
17 Q. Now, we have the Albanian on the screen I think, and I think we
18 will need to look at the second page of the translation -- of the Albanian
19 original. And I shall just read to you from the English translation.
20 Mr. Gjukaj was asked: "What do you know about the kidnapping and killing
21 of Sanije?"
22 And he replied: "Family members of Sanije came to me in the next
23 day after Sanije was kidnapped and asked me to go to Vranoc village to get
24 information about this case. They also told me that Mete Krasniqi was
25 involved in the kidnapping. Two, three, or four days after this -- I'm
1 sorry, two, three, or four days after I got this information, I was
2 speaking with Ramush Haradinaj, and after I told him that Mete Krasniqi
3 stopped Sanije, we went to Vranoc where we met Mete. I told Mete about
4 the case, but he didn't give me any exact information. After Ramush
5 Haradinaj insisted with words like 'who let you stopping the people? Why
6 are you stopping the people without any reason?' And the strict question:
7 'If she is alive, please bring her back immediately or if she is dead
8 return her dead body to her family,' to find the people who did this and
9 give responsibility.
10 "Q. What was the answer of Mete Krasniqi?
11 "A. Mete admitted that Sanije was not alive. During that
12 conversation, Mete mentioned the name of the person who killed Sanije and
13 he was Galani."
14 MR. EMMERSON: I'll let the translation catch up.
15 Q. Now, my question, Mr. Krasniqi, is this: Does that reflect what
16 Mete Krasniqi told you about this conversation with Gani Gjukaj?
17 A. Well, he did not say all those words to me, but he told me that
18 they were there and he had told them who had killed her, and that was
20 Q. And that they were pressing for information about it?
21 A. I don't know.
22 Q. Mr. Gjukaj has made a statement to the Office of the Prosecutor
23 about these meeting -- about this meeting, in which he describes what took
24 place in the conversation with Mete Krasniqi. And he says that after Mete
25 revealed that Galani was implicated, his statement continues: "Avni
1 Krasniqi then entered the room. Avni did not know whether Mete had
2 confessed. When we found out" -- sorry, "when he found out that we knew
3 that Galani had killed her, he became very upset. He also admitted that
4 Galani had killed her."
5 Do you remember a conversation yourself with Gani Gjukaj?
6 A. Well, I don't. I don't actually.
7 Q. Does that mean you're telling us that such a conversation did not
8 occur or that you can't remember one way or the other?
9 A. I don't remember.
10 Q. I want to move now, please, to the suggestion that you've made
11 that Galani was claiming to be some sort of commander. Now, you told us
12 in your evidence in chief that you did not know who appointed him. I just
13 want to ask you this: Was it Galani himself who claimed to be a
14 commander? Is that where you got the information from?
15 A. May I speak? Is it my turn?
16 Q. Let me put the question to you again. Was it from Galani himself
17 that you heard that he was a commander?
18 A. No, everybody knew that he was commander of Lugu i Drinit, not
19 only me.
20 MR. EMMERSON: Can we go into private session for just a moment,
22 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
23 [Private session]
11 Page 10785 redacted. Private session.
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
5 Please proceed.
6 MR. EMMERSON: Could we please call-up Exhibit P172.
7 Q. You will recall, Mr. Krasniqi, that passage that I have just read
8 to you concerning reallocation. I'd like you to look at this document,
9 please, if you wouldn't mind. This is a document dated the 7th of July of
10 1998 which bears a signature of Ramush Haradinaj. And just so that we're
11 clear it's a transfer document and in the English it reads: "Fighter Idriz
12 Gashi from the district of Pec reported to our staff on 4 July at his
13 request he is being transferred for duties to another zone. The
14 above-mentioned fighter is ready to assume his duties immediately."
15 Do you see that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And if you look at the Albanian original, the word that is given
18 for Idriz Gashi throughout this document is "luftetari"; is that the
19 correct pronunciation?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Just explain what that word means for us.
22 A. "Luftetar" means a fighter of the liberation army.
23 Q. As opposed to a commander, you would agree?
24 A. Well, he's a fighter and there's no commander here.
25 Q. Yes. One of the important parts of the account that you've given,
1 Mr. Krasniqi, is that everything that happened that day on the 12th of
2 August you had to do because this man was your commander or you felt he
3 was in command, correct?
4 A. No, he was not a commander in Baran, he was a commander in Lugu i
5 Drinit, and that's what he said. We never asked for his ID or anything to
6 know who he was. Because we did not have that right. He was the
7 commander of Lugu i Drinit.
8 Q. Help us about this. He'd slept and eaten at the house you shared
9 with Mete Krasniqi in Vranoc, hadn't he?
10 A. Yes, that's true.
11 Q. And in the past, that is, before this incident with Sanije Balaj,
12 he'd borrowed a white Mercedes minivan that belonged to your brother Mete,
13 hadn't he, from time to time?
14 A. Before this incident.
15 Q. You're confirming that he did do so before this incident?
16 A. Yes, yes, before the incident.
17 Q. A lot of people claimed to be commanders when they weren't really
18 commanders, didn't they, at this time?
19 A. Yes, yes.
20 Q. And we've heard evidence that your brother, Mete, was referred to
21 as a commander. Mr. Krasniqi, did he go by the name Commander Krasniqi?
22 A. Mete was not a commander. He was a policeman. He worked with the
24 Q. Did he claim to be a commander? Did he ask people to call him
25 Commander Krasniqi?
1 A. I don't know.
2 Q. Do you know Vesel Dizdari?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. He was in the military police at Baran, wasn't he?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Also under the command of Nazif Ramabaja directly I think?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Can you help us as to why he might refer to your brother Mete as
9 Commander Krasniqi?
10 A. I don't know. I've been with Vesel Dizdari for a very short time
11 during that period, maybe two or three times I met him. I had no relation
12 with him.
13 Q. Was your brother Mete in a position to give orders to other people
14 in the military police?
15 A. No, no.
16 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, in January of last year, January 2006, you were
17 interviewed by the international prosecutor in Kosovo, Mr. Robert Dean,
18 and I think you know, don't you, that at the time that that interview took
19 place on the 30th of January of 2006 UNMIK had opened a criminal
20 investigation into you in connection with this matter?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you were being interviewed, I think, just two weeks after you
23 had been formally declared a suspect on the 16th of January; is that
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And just before you were formally interviewed by Mr. Dean, you had
2 a meeting with him, I think, in his office; is that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And in the course of that meeting he discussed with you the
5 possibility that even though you were a suspect it would be possible for
6 you to be declared a cooperating witness, didn't he?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And he explained to you that that would involve giving you an
9 immunity from prosecution for your potential involvement in Sanije Balaj's
10 disappearance and death, didn't he?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And were you told that the reason why there was a suspicion,
13 particularly in relation to the account that you had given, was that the
14 prosecutor in Kosovo had information that two men had been seen dragging
15 Sanije Balaj into the woods, not one?
16 MR. PESTMAN: If I can --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --
18 MR. PESTMAN: -- intervene at this particular point.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Krasniqi, would you take off your earphones
20 for a second.
21 Mr. Krasniqi, do you understand any English? Apparently not.
22 MR. PESTMAN: Not mine, that's for sure.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 I do understand what the issue is.
25 Mr. Emmerson, we are close to a point where the questions you put
1 to the witness might trigger an answer which could not be excluded to also
2 pertain to the role of Mr. Krasniqi in these events in which he might
3 incriminate himself. I'm not saying that he will, but at least the issue
4 is there.
5 MR. EMMERSON: I think, if I may say so, I understand the
6 suggestion we are getting towards that area. I don't think the question
7 that I had just asked would have that potential because the question was
8 asking him whether he had received information from the prosecutor that
9 that was the reason why he had been suspected, which is simply information
10 as to what had been communicated to him by the prosecutor. But be that as
11 it may I'm very happy for the Trial Chamber to caution the witness at this
12 stage but then in my submission I should be permitted to continue with my
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'm not saying that -- Mr. Pestman, you are
15 aware that there is a Rule that if a witness invokes that the answer he
16 would give would incriminate himself that he can address the Chamber and
17 then the Chamber would decide whether or not he has to answer that
18 question. But then, of course, it's up to the witness finally to --
19 MR. PESTMAN: Yeah.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Would that be the -- in your view the suitable
21 approach to take at this moment, that I inform the witness about his
22 rights under - if I immediately find the Rule - yes, I think it's 90(E).
23 MR. PESTMAN: I'll have a look at the appropriate rule in a
24 minute, but it might be interesting to know whether he was actually
25 allowed that status of cooperating witness or not.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's a question that --
2 MR. PESTMAN: I'm not familiar with the procedure --
3 MR. EMMERSON: I know the answer to that.
4 JUDGE ORIE: You know the answer to that.
5 MR. EMMERSON: I know the answer to that.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Then let me -- then this will be further explored by
7 Mr. Emmerson in his cross-examination. It does not -- well, it might --
8 Mr. Emmerson, you say you know the answer, could you already --
9 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, the position is as follows.
10 Mr. Krasniqi was then interviewed as a suspect and gave an account
11 to the prosecutor. Under the relevant provision of the Kosovan criminal
12 procedure law as it stood, there was a six-month period of time during
13 which a person could remain a suspect unless that was extended and that
14 period of time was not extended and the status of cooperating witness is
15 finally only given to those who remain suspects when called to testify. So
16 he was never formally given the status of a cooperating witness. There
17 were discussions about it prior to his first interview. He then gave the
18 interview and after a period of six months --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Do I understand you well that -- at first let's give
20 some time.
21 Mr. Emmerson, is my understanding then correct - and we're talking
22 about legal matters - that since the six-month period had elapsed and
23 apparently there was no realistic expectation or perhaps even a legal
24 impossibility, that Mr. Krasniqi would regain the position of a suspect,
25 that there was no need for him to --
1 MR. EMMERSON: My understanding is I'm not in a position to answer
2 the mediating portion of that question. I have no idea at all --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 MR. EMMERSON: -- whether or not it is possible for him become a
5 suspect, let us say if fresh evidence were to emerge. It could well be
6 the case I could imagine certainly in many jurisdictions that if that were
7 to happen that somebody could be redeclared a suspect. But certainly at
8 the time he testified in Kosovo in the trial of Idriz Gashi, he was not
9 then the subject of an ongoing investigation and was called as a witness
10 without cooperating witness status.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's understood.
12 Then I'll -- Mr. Re, anything to be added?
13 MR. RE: Well, just a query. The question was --
14 JUDGE ORIE: The witness was aware that the reason for being
15 suspected was that there was information that two men --
16 MR. RE: Had been seen dragging --
17 JUDGE ORIE: -- had been seen dragging --
18 MR. RE: Now I'm asking Mr. Emmerson through the Trial Chamber,
19 where is there evidence of two men being seen dragging. I just would ask
20 that he point out where exactly the dragging reference is --
21 MR. EMMERSON: It may be that I've used the word "dragging" too
22 loosely and there's been plenty of evidence based upon information --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Accompanying --
24 MR. EMMERSON: -- from Zymer Hasanaj --
25 JUDGE ORIE: -- Sanije Balaj.
1 MR. EMMERSON: -- and from the evidence of the witness yesterday
2 that there was an accusation that two men were involved.
3 JUDGE ORIE: We are -- yes.
4 We are rightly admonished not to speak at the same time.
5 The issue then rather is whether Mr. Krasniqi remained in the car
6 or accompanied --
7 MR. EMMERSON: Yes --
8 JUDGE ORIE: -- the -- Mr. Gashi and Sanije Balaj when they
9 left --
10 MR. EMMERSON: Exactly so.
11 JUDGE ORIE: I'll -- we'll continue.
12 Mr. Krasniqi, could you put on your earphones again.
13 Mr. Krasniqi, the last question that was put to you was about why at the
14 time you were suspected of being involved in what happened to Sanije Balaj
15 beyond what you testified, now the reason being that there was information
16 that not one but that two persons accompanied Sanije Balaj out of the car
17 into the wood.
18 Now, I would like to inform you that not necessarily this question
19 but questions that could follow. If you would answer them truthfully,
20 that you might say things that would incriminate yourself. Of course I do
21 not know, but you're the only one who knows. If listening to the question
22 you would consider that if you would answer them, as you gave a solemn
23 declaration, in accordance with the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
24 but the truth, that you would incriminate yourself, then you may address
25 me and say that you for that reason would rather not answer that question.
1 Now, if that situation arises, this Chamber has the power to order
2 you, to compel you, to answer that question; but if we would do so, then
3 the testimony would give after we would have ordered you to answer the
4 question cannot be used as evidence in a subsequent prosecution against
5 you for any other offence than false testimony. So if you're ordered and
6 you would still not tell the truth, then you may be subject to
7 investigation and prosecution for false testimony.
8 So is it clear to you? If you fear that your answer might
9 incriminate yourself, and for that reason if you would like not to answer
10 it, please address me.
11 Yes, Mr. Pestman.
12 MR. PESTMAN: Am I correct to understand that he would be, if he
13 were forced to answer a question by the Court, that he would be immune to
14 prosecution by the ICTY?
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's for certain.
16 MR. PESTMAN: But not by any other judicial body, including the
17 authorities, legal authorities, in Kosovo?
18 JUDGE ORIE: That -- I think at this moment, but the parties will
19 correct me, is an unresolved question. And therefore, I cannot answer
20 that. What I could do is to explain to Mr. Krasniqi that if we would
21 compel him to testify where he has addressed us, that he is immune -- he's
22 not immune for prosecution, but that testimony could not be used against
23 you if you would be prosecuted before this Tribunal. And I add to that
24 that there is some uncertainty whether such testimony could ever be used
25 elsewhere. A possibility of course would be that such answers would be
1 given in private session, which makes it not -- at least not immediately
2 accessible for other jurisdictions.
3 This is for your information, Mr. Pestman. I'm not saying that
4 this is the final solution, but we would -- we could consider to go into
5 private session for those purposes, although it's not the usual reason to
6 go into private session. And of course I would not do that until after I
7 would have consulted the parties on this legal issue.
8 Then --
9 MR. EMMERSON: I see the time.
10 JUDGE ORIE: -- I'm looking at the clock --
11 MR. EMMERSON: Can I just indicate on one matter.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MR. EMMERSON: Mr. Re asked me to clarify the use of the word
14 "dragging". I think the testimony on the record is two men forcing a
15 woman out of a vehicle and two men taking a woman, so just to be clear --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. EMMERSON: -- rather than dragging, "forcing" and "taking"
18 were the words that we used.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krasniqi, it's 7.00. It's time to conclude for
20 the day. We would like to see you back tomorrow in the afternoon at a
21 quarter to 4.00 because we'll adjourn since there is an initial appearance
22 scheduled at quarter past 2.00 and since we need some time for changing
23 tapes, et cetera, we'll not resume the testimony in this case until
24 quarter to 4.00.
25 MR. EMMERSON: I don't know whether the Trial Chamber would wish
1 in these circumstances to give the normal direction to a witness and/or to
2 modify it in any way, given the present circumstances and the fact that
3 he's legally represented.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I would give the normal -- you would like to
5 have it --
6 MR. EMMERSON: No, I don't --
7 JUDGE ORIE: -- given the same --
8 MR. EMMERSON: -- I just want it to be clear --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes, I do understand.
10 Mr. Krasniqi, you have given testimony today. You'll continue
11 tomorrow. You should not speak with anyone about the testimony already
12 given or testimony still to be given.
13 Mr. Pestman, when the testimony has not been finished, the Chamber
14 deems it inappropriate for counsel to discuss matters with the
15 then-witness. If, however, there would be any specific reason why you
16 need to speak to Mr. Krasniqi which could not wait until tomorrow in the
17 afternoon, you would have to apply for permission; and then of course you
18 would tell us why there's such an urgent need. And we'll then consider
19 whether we allow you to speak with Mr. Krasniqi before he has concluded
20 his testimony, and that would then of course be under the very, very
21 strict condition that you would not speak in any way about the testimony,
22 substance of the testimony.
23 MR. PESTMAN: I won't make such an application now, but I cannot
24 exclude that the need will arise tomorrow to make such an application with
25 regards to his right not to incriminate himself with a particular -- with
1 regard to a particular issue.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that is a -- that is an issue which is at the
3 edge. If there's any specific reason -- if you would have -- if you would
4 have any special wishes for me to inform the witness about his rights in
5 this respect, you could contact me or at least through the Legal Officer.
6 You can make an application, say, I would -- and then please copy that to
7 the parties in this case. Yes.
8 Anything else? If not, then with, again, apologies to
9 interpreters, transcribers, but also I often forget them, security,
10 technicians, we'll adjourn until tomorrow, Thursday, the 15th of November,
11 quarter to 4.00, Courtroom I.
12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.06 p.m.,
13 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 15th day of
14 November, 2007, at 3.45 p.m.