Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2459

 1                           Wednesday, 18 April 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4      (redacted)

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning to everybody in and around the

 6     courtroom and out there in The Hague.

 7             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 9             This is case number IT-04-84bis-T, the Prosecutor versus

10     Ramush Haradinaj, Idriz Balaj, and Lahi Brahimaj.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Mr. Registrar.

12             Could we have the appearances for the day, please, starting with

13     the Prosecution.

14     (redacted)

15     (redacted)

16     together with Ms. Priya Gopalan, Ms. Daniela Kravetz, Ms. Barbara Goy,

17     and our Case Manager Ms. Line Pedersen appearing in The Hague.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Rogers.

19             And for Mr. Haradinaj.

20             MR. EMMERSON:  On behalf of Ramush Haradinaj:  Ben Emmerson,

21     Rodney Dixon, Annie O'Reilly, and Andrew Strong in the remote location;

22     Kerrie Rowan in The Hague.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Emmerson.

24             And for Mr. Balaj.

25             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Good morning.  Gregor Guy-Smith and Colleen Rohan


Page 2460

 1     at the remote location.  Holly Buchanan and Gentian Zyberi in The Hague.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Guy-Smith.

 3             Mr. Brahimaj.

 4             MR. HARVEY:  Harvey.  Good morning, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  For Mr. Brahimaj.

 6             MR. HARVEY:  For Mr. Brahimaj:  Richard Harvey and Luke Boenisch

 7     here in the remote location.  And in The Hague, Mr. Troop and Ms. Kinabo.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Harvey.

 9             By way of a housekeeping point - I don't know -- I don't think we

10     need to go into private session for this one - we talked at the beginning

11     of our hearing on Monday here of the possibility of appointing counsel

12     for the witness.  The Chamber now makes a formal oral order, authorising

13     OLAD back in The Hague to appoint counsel for the witness.  Thank you so

14     much.

15             May the Chamber please move into closed session.

16                           [Closed session]

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 2461

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18                           [Open session]

19             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, we are back in open

20     session.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.

22             Mr. Rogers.

23             MR. ROGERS:  Your Honour, thank you.

24                           Examination by Mr. Rogers: [Continued]

25             MR. ROGERS:


Page 2462

 1        Q.   Mr. Witness, I just want to ask you a matter, please, relating to

 2     some of the evidence that you gave yesterday.  I just want to ask you a

 3     little bit about it.

 4             At our transcript reference page 38 of the printed version we had

 5     yesterday, you -- I was asking you about the beating of the three young

 6     men and I was asking you about the issue of papers for Drenica.  And I

 7     asked about Mr. Balaj and in particular whether you heard him saying

 8     anything, and your answer at line 6 was:

 9             "I heard that they should arrange his papers to go to Drenica or

10     somewhere else, I don't know."

11             And then I asked you:

12             "Who was saying ... arrange the papers for Drenica?"

13             And you said:

14             "Idriz Balaj was the person."

15             And then later, at transcript page 41, I was asking you what --

16     what else was being said to the people as they were being beaten.  And I

17     said:

18             "Can you recall anything else that was said to those people as

19     they were being beaten?

20             And you said:

21             "I said even earlier that they said, We will arrange for your

22     papers to go to Drenice.  That is, to remove them from there."

23             I just want to ask you:  Apart from Mr. Balaj, did you hear

24     anybody else refer to taking papers, to giving them papers to go to

25     Drenica?  And if so, who?

Page 2463

 1        A.   I told you yesterday that Lahi Brahimaj was there, too, and he

 2     was saying, Prepare the papers for Drenica, as well.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  During the course of the beating, did you -- did you

 4     hear people saying anything else to -- to the young men as they were

 5     being beaten?  Or any other words or threats or insults or anything that

 6     was being said.  Can you try to help us with what may have been being

 7     said, if anything, please.

 8        A.   I don't know what else they could do to them, except the beating.

 9     They beat them.  Maybe I forgot what they were saying at the time.  I can

10     remember the papers for Drenica and the beating and the torture.

11        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Witness.

12             MR. ROGERS:  Your Honours, I have no further questions for this

13     witness, nor do I have any further applications in relation to him.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Mr. Rogers.

15             Mr. Emmerson.

16             MR. EMMERSON:  Your Honours, you know I appear on behalf of

17     Mr. Haradinaj, and, by agreement between the parties, the order of

18     cross-examination will be Mr. Harvey, first of all, on behalf of

19     Lahi Brahimaj.  Then Mr. Guy-Smith on behalf of Idriz Balaj.  And it is

20     possible that I may have some questions at the end on behalf of

21     Mr. Haradinaj, but they will be very brief.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Emmerson.

23             And Mr. Harvey.

24             MR. HARVEY:  Your Honour, as we indicated yesterday, the Defence

25     would like --


Page 2464

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- an adjournment.

 2             MR. HARVEY:  -- an adjournment at this point so that we can

 3     consult directly with our clients and amongst ourselves.  It is our

 4     belief that such an adjournment would be approximately three quarters of

 5     an hour to an hour.  It is also our belief that by granting that

 6     adjournment the Court will be saving itself a substantial amount of time

 7     in the long run.

 8             So we ask you to grant that adjournment.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And in the very immediate short-term.

10             MR. HARVEY:  Indeed.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

12             MR. EMMERSON:  Well, can I give this reassurance for housekeeping

13     purposes:  In the light of the manner in which event have progressed, it

14     is almost inconceivable that we will have any need to proceed beyond

15     Friday.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Emmerson.  That's why I

17     was saying in the immediate short-term there's going to be a benefit.

18     That's what I ...

19             Thank you so much.  We'll take an adjournment and come back -- I

20     beg your pardon.

21             We must move into closed session first.  Thank you very much.

22             May the Chamber please move into closed session.

23                           [Closed session]

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2465

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9                           [Open session]

10             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, we are back in open

11     session.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

13             Mr. Harvey, we -- the Chamber will rely on you to send word when

14     you are ready to reconvene.

15             MR. HARVEY:  Thank you kindly.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  We will take a break until

17     we are invited back.

18             Court adjourned.

19    (redacted)

20    (redacted)

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much for coming.

22             Before we carry on with the proceedings of today, I think it's --

23     oh, I beg your pardon.  The witness is not here.

24             May we please move into closed session.

25                           [Closed session]

Page 2466

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8                           [Open session]

 9             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, we are back in open

10     session.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.

12             The Chamber indicated this morning that it's authorised the

13     appointment of counsel for the witness.  Counsel who has been appointed

14     is in court now.

15             Could you please place yourself on record, counsel, and --

16             COUNSEL FOR WITNESS: [Microphone not activated] ... good

17     afternoon --

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry.  Sir, we have to do that in private

19     session.  I beg your pardon.

20             May the Chamber please move into private session.

21                           [Private session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 2467

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16                           [Open session]

17             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, we are back in open

18     session.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

20             Yes, Mr. Harvey.

21             MR. HARVEY:  Good afternoon, Your Honours, and -- oh, good

22     morning still.  May I thank you for the time that you gave us.  You know

23     other matters have intervened as well, which caused an extended

24     adjournment.

25             Before I start, for everyone's convenience it might be helpful to


Page 2468

 1     know whether you intend to have another break today, whether we're going

 2     to steam on through.  We're in your hands.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We have two hours and ten minutes to go before the

 5     end of our day, our working day.  Depending on whether The Hague can take

 6     a ten-minute break, we probably can go for an hour, and a ten-minute

 7     break in between.

 8             MR. HARVEY:  I see a technical nodding.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is that possible?  If we can do that, then go for

10     an hour, up to ten to 1.00, then we'll take a break at ten to 1.00 and

11     come back.  Thank you so much.

12             MR. HARVEY:  Thank you, Your Honour.  There's one in every

13     courtroom.

14             MR. ROGERS:  We're just glad it's not us, Your Honour.

15                           Cross-examination by Mr. Harvey:

16        Q.   Witness, my name is Richard Harvey.  I am counsel for

17     Lahi Brahimaj, whom you have named many times in the course of your

18     testimony.  Before we get to specific issues, I'd just like to touch on a

19     couple of matters that you mentioned yesterday and ask you, first of all,

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2469











11 Pages 2469-2473 redacted.
















Page 2474

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4        Q.   Very well.  At a particular time on the day of that offensive,

 5     shelling of your village commenced; is that correct?

 6        A.   Yes.  Yes.

 7        Q.   It was in the evening; is that correct?

 8        A.   6.30.

 9        Q.   And before the shelling began, you had removed your family from

10     the village; is that correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And how long did the shelling last?

13        A.   About two hours.  Up -- until 8.00.  So about one and a half

14     hours to two hours.

15        Q.   And where were you during the shelling?

16        A.   As soon as I removed my family, I went back to my house.

17        Q.   And did you have any weapons there?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   After the shelling finished at approximately 8.00, what happened

20     the next day?

21        A.   There were attacks on the village.

22        Q.   And what role did you play in the defence of the village, if any?

23        A.   The villagers offered me a weapon for the protection, for the

24     defence of the village.

25        Q.   And what role did you play?


Page 2475

 1        A.   I was a simple soldier.

 2        Q.   What did you do?

 3        A.   I stayed at the position.

 4        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... what was that position?

 5        A.   At the point on the front line.

 6        Q.   Was there only one point on the front line of your village, or

 7     was there more than one?

 8        A.   There were several.

 9        Q.   Do you remember the names of any of the other people who were

10     with you at that point?  You may go into private session if you wish to

11     do so.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Witness,

13     to give the names, if you want to?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, please, Your Honour, if we can

15     go into private session.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Overlapping speakers] ... may the Chamber please

17     move into private session.

18                           [Private session]

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2476

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9                           [Open session]

10             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, we are back in open

11     session.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.

13             Yes, Mr. Harvey.

14             MR. HARVEY:  Thank you.

15        Q.   And how long did the three of you remain at that position?

16        A.   Two days.

17        Q.   And on the second day, at some stage, did Serb forces overrun the

18     village?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Where were you when the Serb forces entered the village?

21        A.   I withdrew from the village and went towards (redacted).

22        Q.   As the Serb forces entered, or sometime before they arrived?

23        A.   No, they were entering.

24        Q.   Did you use your weapon in defence of your village?

25        A.   Yes.


Page 2477

 1        Q.   So you fired at the enemy.

 2        A.   I did.

 3        Q.   And as you left the village, did you take your weapon with you?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And did the two people you have mentioned who were at the same

 6     point with you, did they leave the village together with you?

 7        A.   One of them was with me.

 8        Q.   What about the other one?

 9     A.  He went to another direction, in the direction of (redacted), to stay

10     with some other relatives we had there.

11        Q.   And as you left with one of the people you've mentioned, were

12     there more people who joined you in leaving the village?

13        A.   Yes.  The whole village withdrew.

14        Q.   How many people were together with you as you were walking in the

15     direction of (redacted)?

16        A.   I told you, the whole village.

17        Q.   And I ask you:  How many people?

18        A.   The whole village.  There were many people.  It wasn't possible

19     for me to count all of them.  A large number of people.

20        Q.   More than 100?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   More than 500?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   So somewhere between a hundred and 500.

25        A.   Yes.  Because there were other people from other areas that had

Page 2478

 1     come to get shelter there.

 2        Q.   So this is on the third day after the attack began on your

 3     village that the whole village walks in the direction of (redacted);

 4     correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And you arrived first in (redacted), is that right,

 7     (redacted), as it's sometimes called?

 8        A.   No.  First we arrived in (redacted), and then (redacted).

 9        Q. And then from (redacted), you made your way through (redacted) onto

10     (redacted); is that right?

11        A.   Yes.  But first I stopped at the (redacted).  I was stopped

12     at the (redacted) before we got to (redacted) and (redacted).

13        Q.   But eventually you continued to (redacted), and you remained in

14     (redacted) for more than two days; isn't that right?

15        A.   Then I went to (redacted), and we were stopped there, at

16     (redacted).

17        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... [Microphone not

18     activated] --

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone.  Microphone.

20             MR. HARVEY:

21        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... you were stopped both in the

22     (redacted) and in (redacted); is that right?

23        A.   Yes, that's correct.

24        Q.   So who stopped you at the (redacted)?

25        A.   (redacted).


Page 2479

 1        Q.   And who stopped you when you got to (redacted)?

 2        (redacted).

 3        Q.   So they stopped you twice before you got to (redacted); is that

 4     right?

 5        A.  Yes.  Because it takes some time to go to (redacted), and we were

 6     on foot, and they were driving a car.

 7        Q.   But you got to (redacted) the same day; is that right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Then if we may move into private session for a moment, please.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

11                           [Private session]

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22                           [Open session]

23             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, we are back in open

24     session.

25             MR. HARVEY:  Thank you.

Page 2480

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Harvey.

 2             MR. HARVEY:

 3    (redacted)

 4    (redacted)

 5    (redacted)

 6    (redacted)

 7        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... [Microphone not

 8     activated] ...

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

10             MR. EMMERSON:  Your Honour, whilst that's done, I wonder if,

11     without any intended rudeness, I might absent myself for just a moment?

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, sir.  May we --

13     [Private session]   [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of the Chamber]

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2481











11 Pages 2481-2489 redacted. Private session.
















Page 2490

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5             MR. HARVEY:  I think I'm trying to do that.  But we'll see how we

 6     get on.

 7        Q.   Witness, when do you say you first joined the KLA?

 8        A.   In May, it was, when I joined the KLA.

 9        Q.   And in May also you left the KLA, didn't you?

10        A.   I'm saying that I joined it in May.

11        Q.   Isn't it right that you have previously stated that you left the

12     KLA in May?

13        A.   What -- what did I say about leaving?  I don't understand.

14     Please, sir, don't make me indirect questions [as interpreted].  The war

15     began in May, and I said that I was on the front line.  I didn't say that

16     I left the KLA.  I am one of those who took up arms.  I didn't leave my

17     place for a single day.  Please don't ask me indirect questions.  Ask me

18     straightforward.

19        Q.   Witness, when did you get your KLA uniform?

20        A.   I didn't have a KLA uniform until June.

21        Q.   And did you -- did there come a time when you did leave the KLA,

22     if it wasn't in May?

23        A.   I didn't leave the KLA.  I was in the KLA all the time.  But I

24     was not with these groups.

25        Q.   You say you were with the KLA all the time.  Didn't there come a

Page 2491

 1     time when you joined the FARK forces?

 2        A.   Yes.  But there was only one insignia, one emblem.  Yes, the name

 3     was FARK.  But we, too, were KLA.

 4        Q.   So you -- you were a member of both organisations at the same

 5     time?

 6        A.   No at the same time.  Initially, from May to June, I was with the

 7     KLA.  And I have everything documented.

 8        Q.   How do you have everything documented, Witness?

 9        A.   I have a document which testifies to the fact that I was a member

10     of the KLA.

11        Q.   And do you have that document with you here, Witness?

12        A.   No.  But I can bring it to you tomorrow.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Carry on, Mr. Harvey.  We -- I notice we are still

14     in private --

15             THE WITNESS: [No interpretation] [Overlapping speakers] ...

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just hold on.  Just -- just hold on.  Just hold

17     on.

18             We're still in private session.  Do you want to stay in private

19     session, sir?

20             MR. HARVEY:  I had no idea.  I do apologise.  We don't have the

21     little dingbat on our screen, or wingding, or whatever they call it.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  May the Chamber please move into open

23     session.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise, but

25     please don't ask me such kind of questions.  I want direct questions,

Page 2492

 1     please.  Not indirect ones, because they might be costly for me.  If

 2     Mr. Lawyer is interested in the questions that the Prosecutor asked me,

 3     and you, Your Honours, I may answer.  But not -- not these kind of

 4     questions he's posing me which do not seem to me proper questions.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much for that last bit because I

 6     thought at the beginning are you saying the questions are asked by the

 7     Bench.

 8             There's an appeal from the witness.  I'm not quite sure how you

 9     resolve that, but ...

10             MR. HARVEY:  Well, very simply.

11        Q.   Witness, if I ask an improper question, I will be stopped by the

12     Judges.  If I ask a question that is prejudicial to you, I'm sure your

13     counsel will seek to intervene or the Prosecutor will seek to intervene.

14     But unless and until I am stopped by the Court, I would please ask you to

15     answer my questions.

16             Now, I want to give you an opportunity to --

17             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Excuse me, excuse me,

18     Your Honours.  Should we now move into open session?

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, ma'am.  I thought we were in

20     open session, aren't we?

21             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, we were waiting for

22     the discussion to finish so we can move without losing any record.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Overlapping speakers] ... I beg your pardon.  I --

24     so -- okay, fine.  Yes, please move us into open session, ma'am.

25                           [Open session]


Page 2493

 1             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, we are now open

 2     session.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, ma'am.

 4             Yes, Mr. Harvey.

 5             MR. HARVEY:  My apologies and my thanks to the Court Officers in

 6     both jurisdictions for their assistance on opening us up.

 7        Q.   Witness, it's right, isn't it, that you were involved in weapons

 8     smuggling over a lengthy period of time?  I'm talking from at least the

 9     mid-1980s until the 1990s.

10             Do you agree?

11        A.   No, I do not agree.  The smuggling was carried out by the very

12     accused, not by myself.  I was involved in the supply of weapons for the

13     defence of my country.

14        Q.   Where did you get your weapons from, Witness?

15             MR. ROGERS:  Could we have a time-frame, please.

16             MR. HARVEY:  Between 1986 and the 1990s.  Up until, in fact,

17     1998.

18             MR. ROGERS:  Well, that's a massive time-frame.  Do we need -- I

19     don't know how many times the witness will have received weapons.

20     Perhaps we can try to break it down.

21             MR. HARVEY:  Your Honour, with respect, I would ask that

22     Mr. Rogers allow me to take my course.  All of these are questions that

23     are going to come up.  I'll humour him to this extent.

24        Q.   Witness, during the 1980s -- I see you smiling.  Do you find this

25     question of arms smuggling to be amusing?


Page 2494

 1        A.   No, I don't find it amusing at all.  Had I been involved in

 2     smuggling, I would feel ashamed before all these people.  But it's not

 3     true that I was.

 4        Q.   You were involved in obtaining weapons for the defence of your

 5     village.  That is true, you have told us; yes?

 6        A.   Yes.  The weapons came from above.  I was an ordinary person.  I

 7     was involved only in the distribution.  Smuggling is something that

 8     benefits the persons who are engaged in it.  I was not.  I simply dealt

 9     with the distribution of these weapons.

10        Q.   Very well.  Let's leave out the word "smuggling."  Over what

11     period of time do you say you were involved in the distribution of

12     weapons?

13        A.   From when I had the weapons at home, it was in -- sometime in

14     1986.  And the weapons I had, I purchased with my own money, the money of

15     my family.  When I started, it was in the 1990s.  And the supply came

16     from above, from the big persons, whose names I cannot mention here.

17             MR. HARVEY:  Can we go into private session, please.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

19     [Private session]   [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of the Chamber]

20             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, we're now in private

21     session.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, madam.

23             Yes, Mr. Harvey.

24             MR. HARVEY:

25        Q.   Witness, you say the weapons came from above.  Do you mean from

Page 2495

 1     above in Kosovo or outside Kosovo?

 2        A.   Within Kosova.  This is where I obtained them.  I don't know

 3     where they have found them.  Even to this day I don't know.  I simply

 4     took the weapons to certain places.  Because of those weapons, the

 5     accused asked me to give the names of the persons I took these weapons

 6     to.  But these weapons came from above, and they didn't have any

 7     authorisation to hold me responsible for them.

 8        Q.   From whom did these weapons come?

 9        A.   From the government which was in exile at the time.

10     (redacted).

11        Q.   Well, who did you receive the weapons from?  Because you just

12     said they came from inside Kosovo, not from people in exile.  Who did you

13     receive the weapons from?

14        A.   The funding came from abroad.  I, personally, simply went by my

15     car and took the weapons to certain places.  I don't know more.

16        Q.   The funding came from abroad.  Where did the guns come from, to

17     get to you?  Did you go and buy the guns yourself?  Or did somebody say

18     to you, Witness, Here are the guns, go and distribute them?

19        A.   No, I didn't buy the guns.  They brought them to me.  I simply

20     distributed them.

21        Q.   Who brought them to you?

22        A.   I said earlier, people who were authorised by the government, the

23     then-government.  Those people brought the weapons.

24        Q.   Which people?  What were their name -- what were their names,

25     please?


Page 2496

 1        A.   (redacted).

 2        Q.   And were those members of your village, or did they come from

 3     somewhere else?

 4             MR. ROGERS: [Microphone not activated] ... open session.

 5             MR. HARVEY:  No, we're not.

 6             MR. ROGERS:  Thank you.  It's very helpful that Judge Delvoie has

 7     his cuff on the microphone so we know.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, they were not from my village.

 9             MR. HARVEY:

10        Q.   Do you know where they were from?  And, if so, please tell us

11     where.

12        A.   I didn't know who they were, and they didn't know who I was.

13             MR. HARVEY:  Your Honours, I note the time, and I understand that

14     this was the point at which you wished us to take break.  It's a

15     convenient moment for me.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  We'll take a break, a

17     ten-minute break, and come back at 1.00.

18             But before we do that, may we please move into closed session.

19     Just a second.

20                           [Closed session]

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2497

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18                           [Open session]

19             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, we are back in open

20     session.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

22             We'll take a break and come back at 2.00 -- at 1.00, I beg your

23     pardon.

24             Court adjourned.

25     (redacted)

Page 2498

 1     (redacted)

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into closed session.

 3                           [Closed session]

 4    (redacted)

 5    (redacted)

 6    (redacted)

 7    (redacted)

 8    (redacted)

 9    (redacted)

10                           [Open session]

11             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, we are back in open

12     session.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

14             Mr. Harvey.

15             MR. HARVEY:  And may we move into private session, and I think

16     all parties will be very grateful to the Court Officer for a remarkable

17     new technique he has just invented for assisting us in this respect.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

19             And you to, Mr. Court Officer.

20             May the Chamber please move into private session.

21    [Private session]   [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of the Chamber]

22             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, we're in private

23     session.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

25             Yes, Mr. Harvey.

Page 2499

 1     (redacted)

 2     (redacted)

 3     (redacted).

 4             COUNSEL FOR WITNESS:  Your Honours, pursuant to section

 5     seventy -- sorry, Rule 75 of the Rules, I would be requesting that we

 6     move into a closed session.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into a closed session.

 8             Rule 75 of the ICTY Rules?

 9             COUNSEL FOR WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

11             COUNSEL FOR WITNESS:  75(B), to be exact.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank, sir.

13     [Closed session]   [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of the Chamber]

14             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink]  Your Honours, we're in closed

15     session.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, ma'am.

17             Yes, (redacted).

18             COUNSEL FOR WITNESS:  Yes, sir.  Thank you very much.

19             I'm -- on behalf of the witness, I am requesting a ruling on the

20     initial refusal of this gentleman to provide the name, and I am putting

21     forth for the Tribunal's consideration that this witness not be permitted

22     to provide the name on the basis that disclosure of the name pursuant to

23     section -- or Rule 75 may result in jeopardizing the security and

24     protective measures in place for this gentleman with respect to his

25     testimony today.

Page 2500

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Thank you, sir.

 2             Mr. Harvey.

 3             MR. HARVEY:  Your Honours, I'm at a loss to understand how the

 4     mere disclosure of a name would be, in itself, likely to jeopardize the

 5     security measures that are in place for this witness.  We know this

 6     witness's name, and we know at least the general parameters of his

 7     location.  The naming of a relative of his in and of itself cannot, in my

 8     submission, without some clear showing to the Tribunal, provide any

 9     justification for refusal to provide the Tribunal with that name.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you have any -- [Microphone not activated] ...

11             COUNSEL FOR WITNESS:  The concern and reason why this gentleman

12     has -- has refused or initially was not prepared to provide the name is

13     that the disclosure of the name of the individual, this individual, may

14     have information as to this gentleman's whereabouts and, as a result, may

15     create a security -- or a risk to his person and to others as well.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I don't know whether or not the Chamber is

18     inclined to rule yet or not, but based upon the information that we've

19     heard thus far, there is no factual basis upon which the ruling should go

20     in favour of non-disclosure.  There is a speculative basis upon which one

21     could ask for such relief, or the witness can ask for such relief, but

22     there are no facts.

23             And with regard to the issue of protection of witnesses and

24     security of witnesses.  When a Chamber takes that unique measure, they

25     take it because they have been presented with a factual basis, sufficient

Page 2501

 1     factual predicates, upon which they can rely.  As opposed to where we are

 2     right now, which is a conjectural basis.  This deals with matters that

 3     occurred a number of years ago, quite some number of years ago, this

 4     particular name and this particular place, and it effectively blocks an

 5     investigation and forecloses the ability of the Defence to mount an

 6     appropriate preparation and investigation for adequate preparation of the

 7     cross-examination.

 8             But the main problem here is this:  Is that as it stands right

 9     now, it's speculative.  Anything may happen in this best of all possible

10     worlds, but we're not in that situation.  You don't have sufficient

11     information.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let me understand what facts we have and what

13     facts we do not have.  We have been told that the Defence requires the

14     name to be able to investigate the veracity of the testimony of this

15     witness through that person.

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well, there are two -- there are a number of

17     different ways that --

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No --

19             MR. GUY-SMITH:  -- an investigation can -- excuse me,

20     Your Honour.  -- can occur.  One of them is:  The name was Bob.  Bob was

21     at a certain place.  Other people were also at that place.  I don't go to

22     Bob.  I go to the place where all these people were.  I say, Was Bob at

23     the place?  They say, Nope, no Bob there.  Bob wasn't there.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But we haven't been told who else outside

25     Bob -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

Page 2502

 1             MR. GUY-SMITH: [Overlapping speakers] ... yes, we have.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  (redacted)

 3     (redacted)

 4     (redacted)

 5             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well, the -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  There's just other people but whose names have not

 7     been mentioned, so we are not able to go to them.

 8             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well, we can certainly go to at least one other

 9     to find out if Bob was there.  Because that name has been mentioned.  We

10     don't ever have to go to Bob.  We never have to go to -- we never

11     necessarily have to go to the witness or the named person in the first

12     instance to determine the accuracy of statement.  I can impeach the

13     information in a variety of different ways.  I may end up going to Bob,

14     saying, Bob, were you ever there?  Bob says, No, I was never there.  Or

15     Bob says, Yes, I was there.  Bob says, Yes, I was there.  Well, then, you

16     know, obviously it's a point -- it's a point in the favour of the

17     gentleman.

18             MR. ROGERS:  Your Honours, I've stayed out of this for the

19     moment, but if I may just add my ha'porth worth.

20             The question is really, perhaps, whether it's -- the answer is

21     material in the circumstances and whether it is necessary to force the

22     witness to answer the question.  Your Honours, if the argument that's

23     being made is adequate time and facilities for preparation, my learned

24     friends, of course, have already another witness whom they have had

25     (redacted)

Page 2503

 1     information relating to these particular incidents.

 2             So, Your Honours, in my submission, the answer -- the question is

 3     not sufficiently material to warrant a compelled answer, and that may be

 4     that the -- that deals with the whole of the debate that we're having at

 5     the moment.  It's a question of whether Your Honours consider it is

 6     sufficiently material to force an answer from the witness or whether you

 7     accept the answer that he's given, that he doesn't wish to name the

 8     individual for the reasons he's stated, and then refuse an application to

 9     compel him to answer that question.

10             It seems to me those are the parameters.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Indeed those are the parameters we are aware of,

12     sir, and we're trying to make a determination whether -- how we are going

13     to rule within those parameters and trying to get a little more

14     information to be able to do that.

15             I see you're on your feet, Mr. Harvey.

16             MR. HARVEY:  Your Honour, I would absolutely invite you to seek a

17     little more information, because at the moment I'm in full agreement with

18     Mr. Guy-Smith.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] ...

20             MR. HARVEY:  No.  I assumed that you were going ask the witness

21     for a little more information rather than just the mere speculation that

22     has been offered by his counsel.

23             The question is, Who is in control here?  Is the witness to tell

24     this Court what evidence he will and what evidence he will not give, or

25     is he to provide this Court with a factual predicate for refusing to

Page 2504

 1     supply information?

 2     (redacted)

 3     (redacted)

 4     (redacted)

 5     (redacted)

 6     (redacted)

 7     (redacted)

 8     (redacted).

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Specifically on whether or not you accept --

11     what -- I beg your pardon.  What submissions do you have to make on

12     the -- the allegation that your application is speculative, sir?  It's

13     not based on facts.  And we can rule after that.

14             COUNSEL FOR WITNESS:  Essentially the -- if I start providing --

15     I don't wish to be in a position where I'm giving the evidence, but

16     essentially the concern that has been raised is essentially, as indicated

17     in my initial objection, in that in a general manner the disclosure of

18     this person's name, I think if we start getting into details, I believe

19     that's where the concern that is being raised may arise, that it may

20     create that protective or security issue concern.

21             But with respect to the objection that is being raised, the

22     concern, and I believe this witness has been forthcoming in providing

23     names, is that this name will create some concerns on his part and for

24     others as well, and I believe that is a belief that this gentleman is

25     presently in possession of.

Page 2505

 1             If we -- I believe if we require -- if the Defence's application

 2     that we provide details, I believe we'd have to be in a voir dire

 3     situation as to the reason or the -- why this gentleman is not -- is

 4     refusing to provide that information, and I believe then, as indicated,

 5     we are once again faced with that security protective issue of the

 6     disclosure.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The Chamber refuses the application.  Doesn't see

10     the mentioning of the name as material enough to justify compelling a

11     witness to give the name.

12             MR. HARVEY:

13        Q.   Witness --

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Harvey.

15             MR. HARVEY:  Yes.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Should we stay in closed session?

17             MR. HARVEY:  We should go into open session.  Thank you so much,

18     Your Honour.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into open session.

21                           [Open session]

22             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, we're in open

23     session.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

25             Yes, Mr. Harvey.


Page 2506

 1             MR. HARVEY:

 2        Q.   Witness, before the short adjournment I asked you some questions

 3     about your involvement in supplying weapons over a period of years.  And

 4     you said that that started in approximately 1986 and continued through

 5     the 1990s.  Is that a correct summary of your testimony on that point?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And during that period of time, approximately how many weapons

 8     were you involved in supplying?

 9             MR. ROGERS: [Microphone not activated] ... relevance of this

10     question.

11             MR. HARVEY:  Your Honours, that will become apparent with -- in

12     about three questions' time.  May even one.  But I'm --

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm not quite sure that's how you answer that kind

14     of objection.  You have got to show us the relevance.  Otherwise we're

15     going to rule now.  We can't wait for three questions before we rule on

16     this objection.  We've got to know the relevance now to be able to rule

17     on the objection.

18             MR. HARVEY:  Your Honours, it goes to credit, it goes to this

19     witness's involvement in illegal activities over an extensive period of

20     time, and (redacted)

21    (redacted). It goes to the very essence of what this witness is about here

22     in court today.  And I will make that very clear.  But I would ask

23     Your Honours to let me take my course.  I'm not here to waste the Court's

24     time, or Mr. Rogers's time, for that matter.

25             I think an answer to that question of how much gun-running he was

Page 2507

 1     involved in is a matter that must surely be of concern to all parties

 2     here.

 3             MR. ROGERS:  The witness hasn't accepted he was involved in

 4     gun-running.  He said that he was involved in the distribution of

 5     weapons.  And he said repeatedly that that was over a long period of

 6     time.  Your Honour, I fail to see how the numbers has anything to do with

 7     the propositions my learned friend wants to put.

 8             MR. EMMERSON:  I'm sorry to rise, because I -- as Your Honours

 9     know, I don't have a -- I've used this expression before - I don't have a

10     dog in this fight.  But I wonder if there is some potential for

11     misunderstanding here.  I'm sure Mr. Harvey didn't mean to suggest that

12     the importation of weapons into Kosovo and their distribution in support

13     of the armed struggle was illegal activity.  I imagine he was referring

14     to some other form of smuggling.

15             MR. HARVEY:  Absolutely correct.  If any clarification is needed,

16     I accept that clarification.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, then we haven't got any evidence on that

18     other form of smuggling.  The evidence we have so far is the -- the --

19     the alleged smuggling and the -- what the witness says was distribution

20     of arms by him.

21             MR. HARVEY: [Overlapping speakers] ... and that's what I was

22     seeking to --

23             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Overlapping speakers] ... so if, indeed, your

24     clarification, sir, is that are you not referring to what is on record so

25     far, but on something else, then we've got to have that in evidence

Page 2508

 1     first.

 2             MR. HARVEY:  Then if I may take that course, I will do so.  I was

 3     trying to shortcut it.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Please.  Okay.

 5             MR. HARVEY:

 6        Q.   Mr. Witness, just dealing with that period from 1986 to 1990, who

 7     were the weapons to be used against?

 8        A.   We were preparing for war which was expected to start at any

 9     moment.

10        Q.   1986?

11        A.   We prepared ourselves at that time.  From that time till 1990.

12        Q.   But when did the war start, Witness?  It was 1998, wasn't it?

13             MR. ROGERS:  Collateral issue.  He's given an answer, and

14     it should -- and that's the end of the matter.

15             MR. HARVEY:  With respect, it most certainly is not.  This -- I'm

16     sorry.  This witness is here under oath to tell the Tribunal whether or

17     not he was actually a member of the KLA, as he claims, whether or not he

18     was actually involved with guns, as he claims, and the purpose for which

19     he was.  If he was there as a member of the KLA legitimately waging armed

20     struggle against an oppressive force, that is one thing.  If he was, over

21     a lengthy period of time, supplying weapons to all manner of people with

22     no prospect of war in sight, then that is something else.  And that comes

23     on --

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Harvey, I'm sorry to interject while you're

25     speaking.  I would like to suggest that rather than you now making

Page 2509

 1     closing arguments or giving evidence, you just respond to the objection

 2     and carry on with the cross-examination.

 3             MR. HARVEY:  I'll carry on with the cross-examination.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, sir.

 5             MR. HARVEY:  Thank you.

 6             MR. ROGERS:  Is my objection overruled to the relevance of this

 7     particular question as being a collateral issue which has been asked and

 8     answered?

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The question will be allowed.

10             Was it in preparation for a war that was in 1998 or in 1990.

11             MR. HARVEY:

12        Q.   Witness, in 1986, do you claim that you were supplying weapons in

13     preparation for a war that didn't start until 1998?

14        A.   No.  We were preparing ourselves.  There was no war at the time,

15     but the things began to go worse.  The things changed.  The people in

16     power were imprisoning people, were beating people up.  And in 1991 I

17     was, myself, imprisoned by the regime.  But there was no war at the time.

18     And this was not arms smuggling, because smuggling is buying and selling

19     the arms on, but I didn't do that.

20        Q.   Witness, I think you should be aware that the Court has been

21     provided with information that -- and I think you need to hear the terms

22     of this so that you can have a fair and reasonable opportunity to respond

23     to them.

24             I'm going to read a paragraph to you and ask you to respond to

25     it, and, in fact, I will be reading a total of four paragraphs to you,

Page 2510

 1     and I will be asking you to respond to them.

 2             So, first of all --

 3             MR. ROGERS:  Before we do, I think we should be in private

 4     session.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Harvey.

 6             MR. HARVEY:  Your Honour, I don't think it's necessary for part

 7     of this.  I -- I will obviously not use the witness's name, and I will --

 8     if I come to anything that I think is likely to jeopardize his protective

 9     measures, I will either editorialise it or I will ask to go into private

10     session.  But for the first paragraph I don't think it's necessary at

11     all.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Harvey.

13             MR. HARVEY:

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2511











11 Pages 2511-2512 redacted.
















Page 2513

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:  But that's not --

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can we just not overlap, please?  Because we are

14     not going to be recorded now.

15             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I appreciate that.  But the witness wasn't

16     responding --

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Fair enough --

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:  -- to you, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I understand.

20             MR. GUY-SMITH:  That was the problem.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And I was going to deal with that.

22             Can I deal with that first before you rise, Mr. Emmerson?

23             MR. EMMERSON:  Would Your Honour like me to read my note?

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No, I don't want you to read your note.

25             Witness.  Witness, could you please say the last sentence of your

Page 2514

 1     last answer, when you talked about "even people in Kosovo ..."

 2             Can you finish that sentence?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Even in Kosova, based on the

 4     evidence I gave, people were captured by the police and imprisoned, and

 5     they explained why such attempts were made on my life.  That was it.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Got it, Mr. Guy-Smith?

 7             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes.  Thank you very much.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're welcome.

 9             MR. GUY-SMITH:  New information.  And thank you.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

11             Mr. Harvey.

12             MR. HARVEY:  Your Honours, I would ask that the witness be shown

13     1D151540, we have copies for the Bench.  I don't think this one was part

14     of the original file.  If those could be ...

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The ERN number again?  1D15 ...

16             MR. HARVEY:  1D151540.  That's --

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  15150?

18             MR. HARVEY:  151540.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Thank you.

20             MR. HARVEY:  65 ter number.

21             MR. ROGERS:  Your Honour, if there's going to be reference to

22     this document, it needs to be dealt with in private session, please.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Harvey.

24             MR. HARVEY:  Yes, thank you.  Please could move into private

25     session.


Page 2515

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

 2    [Private session]   [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of the Chamber]

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

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25   (redacted)

Page 2516

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7             Witness, do you agree that that is an accurate description of

 8     when and how you came to approach (redacted) in this matter?

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11     individuals.  But whether he is trying to ask that the note that somebody

12     else has made is an accurate description of what went on.  I don't know

13     whether there's one or two questions there.

14             MR. HARVEY:  I asked whether this was an accurate description of

15   what the witness did and how he first approached (redacted). If there's any

16     confusion, I'm willing to break it down further.  I was hoping to be able

17     to do it in one.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We will allow the question.  But I may ask just to

19     break things into one, because it's too large -- [Overlapping speakers]

20     ...

21             MR. HARVEY: [Overlapping speakers] ... I'll break it down a bit.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- a mouthful.

23             MR. HARVEY:

24        Q.   Witness, having --

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What brought you to this document was the question

Page 2517

 1     whether he gave the statement (redacted)

 2     And I think just the last sentence of that paragraph is what you were

 3     putting to the witness before you -- you came to this document.

 4             MR. HARVEY:  Thank you, Your Honour.  That's exactly right.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And rather than asking about the whole paragraph,

 6     you could probably read that to him, that sentence, and ask him about the

 7     correctness of that sentence.  That will be much more focussed.

 8             MR. HARVEY:  Thank you for that advice.  I will certainly follow

 9     it.

10        Q.   Witness, do you accept that the first time that you approached

11     (redacted)?

12        A.   I don't remember.  I was there several times.  I can't remember

13     the date.  (redacted)

14     (redacted)

15     (redacted)

16     (redacted)

17     (redacted)

18     (redacted)

19     (redacted).

20     Q.  Do you accept, Witness, that you told (redacted) - and I'm looking at

21     the last two sentences -- sorry, the last three:  "(redacted)

22     (redacted)

23     (redacted)."

24             Does that -- is that right?  That's what you said to (redacted)?

25        A.   No.  Before, I gave the evidence; (redacted).  This is a

Page 2518

 1     fact.

 2        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... listen to the question,

 3     Witness.

 4             That you told (redacted): (redacted)

 5     (redacted)

 6     (redacted).

 7     Is that a reasonable paraphrase of what you said to (redacted) then?

 8        A.   No, sir, I didn't.  (redacted)

 9     (redacted)

10     (redacted) -- I had my house (redacted)

11     (redacted).

12     (redacted)

13     (redacted).

14     (redacted)

15     (redacted).

16     (redacted)

17     (redacted)."

18             Isn't that what you told them?

19        A.   No, it's not true.

20        Q.   (redacted)

21     (redacted)

22     (redacted)

23     (redacted).

24             JUDGE DELVOIE: [Previous translation continues] ... ask where we

25     are going with this?

Page 2519

 1             MR. HARVEY:  Yes, Your Honour, we're going towards the

 2     reliability of the information with which the Court has been provided the

 3     day before this hearing -- or the day this hearing began.  We're going

 4     towards the question of whether, in fact, the -- Your Honour will recall

 5     (redacted)

 6     (redacted)

 7     (redacted)

 8     (redacted)

 9     (redacted)

10     (redacted).

11     (redacted)

12     (redacted).

13     (redacted)

14     (redacted).

15             MR. HARVEY:  He says that.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yeah.

17             MR. HARVEY:  It's a lie.  That's my submission.  And that he has

18     a motive to lie.  And that that is a matter that this Tribunal has to

19     take very seriously.  (redacted)

20     (redacted).  And the more it's told, the more believable it may

21     become.  It has to be unraveled, and I'm entitled, in my submission, to

22     pursue that.

23        Q.   (redacted)

24     (redacted)

25     (redacted)

Page 2520

 1     (redacted)

 2     (redacted)

 3     (redacted)

 4        Q.   I'm sorry, that's not my question.

 5     (redacted).

 6        Q.   That's not the question.

 7             MR. ROGERS:  Your Honour, it's quite -- with respect, it's quite

 8     clear what the problem is here.  It's about the word "want."  (redacted)

 9     (redacted).  And the answers

10     that we're getting from the witness tend to indicate that that's not --

11             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] ... but the witness

12     answered it's not true.  Unfortunately, the witness went on to explain.

13     But the answer to your question has been given, Mr. Harvey.

14             MR. HARVEY:  Then I want to ask it again.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And -- well, to the extent that witness made

16     further explanations and that thereby exposes himself to further

17     questioning on that answer, so be it.  That's -- in his own wisdom,

18     that's how he answered.  But your question was answered, indeed.  And I'm

19     not quite sure what the fight is between --

20             MR. HARVEY:  Well, I think Mr. Rogers may well have a vert good

21     point.  I don't say that every day, but I'll certainly say that today.

22             MR. ROGERS:  That's a rare grace.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah.  The word "want."  Yeah, that -- the

24     relevance of that, I can see that.  And -- or at least the fact that

25     that's what you are concentrating on.  And I think he has answered that.

Page 2521

 1     He says, No, I didn't.

 2     (redacted)

 3     (redacted)

 4     (redacted)

 5     (redacted)

 6     (redacted)

 7     (redacted)

 8     (redacted)

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I think that's a play on words now.  It's the flip

10     side of the first question.

11             MR. HARVEY:  If that's the Chamber's view, then I'm happy to

12     accept it.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, it's a flip side of the first question, sir.

14             MR. HARVEY:  I also notice the time.  I'm prepared to continue.

15     I don't know how long you wish to continue for.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Another ten minutes.

17             MR. HARVEY:  Thank you.

18     (redacted)

19     (redacted)

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Asked and answered.

21             COUNSEL FOR WITNESS:  Your Honour --

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Asked and answered.

23             COUNSEL FOR WITNESS:  Thank you.

24             MR. HARVEY:  On that particular occasion.  I'm -- maybe I should

25     have made the question clearer.

Page 2522

 1     (redacted)

 2     (redacted)

 3             COUNSEL FOR WITNESS:  I believe we're asking the same question in

 4     a different fashion, and I believe the Tribunal has made a ruling.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, the question has now been reformulated.  It

 6     says on any other occasion as opposed to ... this is the direction in

 7     which now the question is going.

 8   (redacted)

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Page 2523











11 Pages 2523-2528 redacted. Private session.
















Page 2529

 1   (redacted)

 2                           [Closed session]

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25                           [Open session]


Page 2530

 1             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, we are back in open

 2     session.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 4             We'll take an adjournment and come back at 9.00 tomorrow morning.

 5             Court adjourned.

 6     (redacted)

 7                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 19th day of

 8     (redacted).