1 Thursday, 19 April 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everybody in and around the
7 Mr. Registrar, please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
9 This is case number IT-04-84bis-T, the Prosecutor versus
10 Ramush Haradinaj, Idriz Balaj, and Lahi Brahimaj.
11 Thank you.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, Mr. Registrar.
13 Could we please have the appearances for the day, starting with
14 the Prosecution.
15 MR. ROGERS: Yes. Good morning, Your Honours, and good afternoon
16 in The Hague. It's Paul Rogers and Aditya Menon appearing in the remote
17 location. Ms. Daniela Kravetz, Ms. Priya Gopalan, Ms. Barbara Goy, and
18 our Case Manager Ms. Line Pedersen in The Hague.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Rogers.
20 And for Mr. Haradinaj.
21 MR. EMMERSON: Good morning, Your Honour. Ben Emmerson for
22 Ramush Haradinaj, together with Rodney Dixon, Annie O'Reilly, and
23 Andrew Strong in the remote location; and Kerrie Rowan in The Hague.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
25 And For Mr. Balaj.
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: Good morning, Your Honours. Gregor Guy-Smith and
2 Colleen Rohan on behalf of Mr. Balaj at the remote location.
3 Holly Buchanan and Gentian Zyberi in The Hague.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
5 And for Mr. Brahimaj.
6 MR. HARVEY: Good morning, Your Honours. Richard Harvey and
7 Luke Boenisch here in the remote location; Paul Troop and Sylvie Kinabo
8 in The Hague.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
10 May the Chamber please move into closed session.
11 [Closed session]
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, we're back in open
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
8 Good morning, Mr. Witness.
9 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] ... made at the
11 beginning of your testimony to tell the truth, the whole truth, and
12 nothing else but the truth.
13 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: I heard no interpretation.
15 Interpreters, are able to tell us what the witness just said?
16 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, I will tell the whole truth.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, ma'am.
19 COUNSEL FOR WITNESS: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
20 Prior to -- if we may go into a closed session, please.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into closed session.
22 [Closed session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of the Chamber]
23 MR. ROGERS: There needs to be a redaction.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: May we please redact --
25 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, we're in closed
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
3 While we are in closed session could we please redact the name of
4 the counsel for the witness. I mentioned the name by mistake.
5 Mr. Registrar, that will be done? Okay. And you may proceed.
6 COUNSEL FOR WITNESS: Yes, thank you very much, Your Honour.
7 Prior to recommencing the cross-examination of this witness, I
8 would like to bring forth an application that the proceedings be
9 adjourned pending adjudication by a (redacted)
10 (redacted) with respect to the proceedings, the manner in which the
11 proceedings are taking place, as well as to rulings with respect to the
12 order which has brought this witness before this Tribunal.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: The order that brought this witness before this
14 Tribunal. Are you talking about the (redacted)?
15 COUNSEL FOR WITNESS: Correct, sir. And the order that was
16 imposed regarding having this gentleman testify before the Tribunal in
17 today's proceedings.
18 I believe under the order -- and I canvassed this issue with my
19 friends from the (redacted), and I am not in a position to go
20 into any details since I do not know to what extent the members of the
21 Defence team have had access to the order or even being familiar with the
22 order bring this gentleman before the Tribunal.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: The problem is that if you can't go into details,
24 sir, you're leaving the Chamber with very little information on which to
25 make this decision which is so fundamentally disruptive of the
1 proceedings given the time left for us to finish with this witness.
2 COUNSEL FOR WITNESS: Yes, and --
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: And we don't know how soon it is -- how soon you
4 would be able to resolve what you want to resolve before the local
6 COUNSEL FOR WITNESS: Yes. I believe the issue that will -- or
7 the issues to be adjudicated by - I believe (redacted) has been
8 assigned to this matter - will have a huge bearing on the manner or if
9 the proceedings will be continuing. And -- but I believe that is a
10 matter to be adjudicated by His Honour with respect to the parameters
11 that have been established for these proceedings by the order that was
12 imposed previously.
13 So, respectfully, this gentleman is exercising his right pursuant
14 to that order to have any issue, objection, or refusal be put fourth or
15 any concerns regarding the proceedings be put forth before the (redacted)
16 for a ruling.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Say that again?
18 COUNSEL FOR WITNESS: Pursuant to the order that brings this
19 witness before the Tribunal, any issue regarding the order or any -- or
20 the proceedings may be brought before the (redacted)
21 for adjudication to obtain a ruling.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's not how this Chamber understands that
23 order, sir.
24 COUNSEL FOR WITNESS: It's at page 4, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Page 4 of ...
1 COUNSEL FOR WITNESS: The order.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you talking of the order by the local court?
4 COUNSEL FOR WITNESS: Correct, sir. I don't wish to go into
5 greater detail since I'm not aware if my friends from --
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: I don't believe that either side -- I don't
7 believe -- you don't -- I don't believe that either side has the local
8 order from (redacted). Neither of us have that order.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure you don't.
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: We don't. I don't know whether or not in order
11 to facilitate all parties it makes sense for us to have this order or
12 not. But apparently there's some hesitancy to have a discussion by
13 virtue of whatever's in this order.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Right.
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: So I don't know whether or not it makes sense for
16 us to have the order or not have the order, or if there's some other way
17 we can do it, in order for the -- to fully ventilate whatever the issue
18 may be.
19 COUNSEL FOR WITNESS: I believe, Your Honour, I could be of
20 assistance. At the bottom of page 4, I believe my friend's query may be
21 answered in that respect.
22 I believe (redacted) is nodding in the affirmative as well.
23 So I'm limited as to the details that I can bring forth before
24 this Tribunal today, due to the order that this witness is bound by and
25 also the Tribunal is bound by with respect to the order.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 MR. ROGERS: Your Honour, the microphone is on.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Without using the word "ex parte," the order does
4 exclude the parties from having access to the order, which means, in
5 fact, that if we are to entertain your application, we've got to do so in
6 the absence of the rest of the parties. It's got to be an ex parte
7 application. And that will enable us to raise pertinently with you the
8 point that you are raising that you say needs to be adjudicated upon.
9 Because --
10 COUNSEL FOR WITNESS: [Microphone not activated] ... my,
11 respectfully --
12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
13 COUNSEL FOR WITNESS: [Overlapping speakers] ... respectfully,
14 Your Honours, it's -- pursuant to the order, I believe, any issue with
15 respect to adjudication, as indicated in my application, has to be dealt
16 with by a (redacted). I don't believe there's any
17 requirement to obtain leave of the Tribunal. I believe upon my -- based
18 upon my application today the matter has to go before a (redacted)
20 The reason being is there are issues with respect to these
21 proceedings, as indicated, that, respectfully, are in contravention of
22 the order that was imposed by His Honour. And respectfully, that issue
23 has to be adjudicated (redacted). And I believe the
24 order sets the parameters as to the manner and the method in which this
25 gentleman is to testify, and I believe we require a ruling if -- with
1 respect to the issues that will be brought before the presiding (redacted)
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: I want to believe that you're basing your argument
4 on the third paragraph from the bottom of -- on page 4.
5 COUNSEL FOR WITNESS: Essentially -- that paragraph essentially
6 is the paragraph -- I believe I'm still -- we're discussing the
7 order -- [Overlapping speakers] ...
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure. No, but is -- that's the paragraph?
9 COUNSEL FOR WITNESS: Yes.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Because I'm not satisfied, sir, that in fact
11 you're reading it correctly.
12 COUNSEL FOR WITNESS: Yes. That would be essentially a
13 paragraph that essentially assigns (redacted) as a referee
14 with respect to the manner and the method in which the proceedings are
15 taking place.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Not -- not with respect to a manner of
17 manner [sic]. With respect to a specific issue that arises at that
18 specific time.
19 COUNSEL FOR WITNESS: Correct.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: And the -- you are not citing to any issue that is
21 arising at a specific time. You just -- this gives the general way of
22 doing things, but now you want to go back to go and ask for a general way
23 of doing things when you have been given that, and the general way says
24 to you there shall be a specific issue.
25 COUNSEL FOR WITNESS: And those specific issues are issues that I
1 wish to address before His Honour or Her Honour --
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: This. That's right.
3 COUNSEL FOR WITNESS: -- whoever will be adjudicating --
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: But that issue must arise. And now before an
5 issue has arisen, before counsel has begun to cross-examine, you are
6 asking to -- for an adjournment, and not -- we don't have the issue that
7 it is -- that arises that you want to take to the judge.
8 COUNSEL FOR WITNESS: If -- I believe if we, as indicated by the
9 Tribunal, I'm limited in how I can provide the Court with an indication
10 of what the issues are because I'm limited with respect to the order due
11 to the presence of parties that are excluded or not parties to this
12 order. The issue that it raises, then, is --
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me --
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you asking -- are you asking to go ex parte?
15 COUNSEL FOR WITNESS: I believe --
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Because -- because then it means your application
17 for adjournment must be heard ex parte.
18 COUNSEL FOR WITNESS: Well, the application which essentially
19 sets the parameters of the proceedings with respect to this gentleman is
20 an ex parte order which, respectfully, the only proper forum that can
21 address any issues or concerns regarding this order is (redacted)
22 (redacted), not this Tribunal.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: May --
24 COUNSEL FOR WITNESS: And basically the issues that I'm raising
25 are not with respect to any issue regarding -- well, the issues that I'm
1 raising are essentially the manner and the method the questions are being
2 asked with respect to the parameters that have been set by the (redacted)
3 (redacted). And I believe we require a ruling as to the manner and
4 the method in which the Tribunal will be proceeding by the (redacted)
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, Your Honour. If it's of any
7 assistance, and I don't know if it is, but I'm having a sneaking
8 suspicion that the conversation is somewhat halted by virtue of the fact
9 that I am present. And if that is the case, I am willing -- I'm
10 willing --
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] ... that's not the
12 issue. That's not the issue.
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: Okay, fine.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's either going to be an ex parte application or
15 we can talk in Morse code now and resolve this issue without the rest of
16 the parties understanding what we're talking about. But my problem is,
17 I'm concerned about time, and I don't think that your application is
18 well-founded, (redacted), I must tell you clearly.
19 COUNSEL FOR WITNESS: I do understand, Your Honour. I believe if
20 efforts had been made to have me involved in the proceedings at the
21 outset I believe this issue could have been -- [Overlapping speakers] ...
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would have been ventilated at the beginning?
23 COUNSEL FOR WITNESS: Essentially so. And I was just appointed
24 yesterday, and essentially based -- [Overlapping speakers] ...
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: But then -- but then I think that you should have
1 raised the issue at the beginning, as soon as you'd arrived.
2 COUNSEL FOR WITNESS: But essentially, following the proceedings
3 yesterday and upon reviewing the materials, essentially I have been
4 instructed and I believe I am required to bring this application before a
6 I do apologise for any inconvenience this may cause to the
7 Tribunal and the members present. I do understand that -- [Overlapping
8 speakers] ...
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: But then you should have raised that at the
10 beginning yesterday --
11 COUNSEL FOR WITNESS: Yes.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- as soon as you arrived.
13 COUNSEL FOR WITNESS: Correct. And --
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Because -- because, and I'll tell you why, because
15 your application is not based, as -- as my reading of the document says,
16 is not based on an issue that arises that necessitates an objection on
17 your part.
18 COUNSEL FOR WITNESS: There are issues, but I am limited in
19 voicing or presenting to the Tribunal what the issues are due to
20 my limitations -- [Overlapping speakers] ...
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's why I asked you a question, sir. Do you
22 want an ex party hearing?
23 COUNSEL FOR WITNESS: My application, Your Honour, would be to
24 appear before a (redacted) to have the issue adjudicated.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, the thing is, you are not able to ventilate
1 that application in the presence of these people. Do you want an
2 ex parte hearing to be able to ventilate that so that we can give you
3 a -- decide whether to give you an adjournment, sir?
4 COUNSEL FOR WITNESS: Correct, sir, without limiting my ability
5 to go before a (redacted).
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the rest of the parties please excuse us.
7 MR. EMMERSON: Would Your Honour wish to hear from any other
8 party as to the appropriateness of this matter being dealt with ex parte?
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: No.
11 MR. EMMERSON: No?
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Because we're bound by this order. I mean, this
13 order excludes it from you.
14 MR. EMMERSON: This is an order of a national court.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is an order of a national court, yes.
16 MR. EMMERSON: I mean, on the face -- I mean, I would wish -- the
17 reason I just pause is not because I formed a very clear view on the
18 issue but because I'd like a moment to form a clear view on the issue,
19 because I question whether you're bound by an order of a (redacted)
20 national court. But, I mean, it may be because I don't see it, I don't
21 know --
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed. And we -- that issue will be canvassed
23 with the counsel.
24 MR. EMMERSON: Very well.
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, I don't know. I mean, since Mr. Emmerson
1 has indicated what he's indicating, I'm not clear at this point and form
2 no opinion as to who has what jurisdiction at what time given the
3 situation we're in. And there may well be jurisdictional issues that
4 the -- that we don't -- that we, the ICTY, don't have, and the national
5 court does have. I don't know.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: That is a situation. But the question is, which
7 jurisdictional matter are we dealing with here? And we'll sort it out
8 with counsel.
9 The request came from the Bench that may the rest of the parties
10 please excuse themselves.
11 We're going to have to adjourn for 30 minutes for the Court to be
12 set up for an ex parte hearing, sir. This is what is going to be the
13 result of this adjournment.
14 So we will have to adjourn and give the technicians time to set
15 up the court.
16 Court adjourned.
18 [The witness stands down]
19 [Open session]
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into closed session.
22 [Closed session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of the Chamber]
23 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, we're in closed
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
1 We adjourned this morning in order to hear the application that
2 was made by counsel for the witness, which application we resolved, but
3 then counsel then had a further application before the local judge.
4 Are you able to give us feedback on this story, sir?
5 COUNSEL FOR WITNESS: Yes. Thank you very much, Your Honours.
6 Essentially, we had a (redacted) attend, at
7 which time His Honour heard evidence and the issues that were raised in
8 the ex parte hearing, and my friend from (redacted)
9 also made submissions, and His Honour, I believe, has stood down and will
10 be granting -- my calculation is, approximately, 15 minutes from now,
11 will be granting a ruling on the objections or the issues that were
12 raised in the ex parte application before (redacted)
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
15 Then we would like to carry on with our case in the interim.
16 We'd like to get the witness in.
17 COUNSEL FOR WITNESS: If -- before I raise some further issues or
18 concerns, if we may have (redacted) present.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed. Thank you so much.
20 May the witness please be brought in.
21 [The witness entered court]
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Witness. We're sorry for that --
23 just a second, sir.
24 We -- we just apologise for the break that we had to have this
25 morning. We just wanted to -- I was reminding you this morning that
1 you're still bound to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else
2 but the truth, in terms of the declaration that you made at the beginning
3 of your testimony. I see your counsel wanted to stand.
4 Yes, counsel.
5 COUNSEL FOR WITNESS: Yes. Thank you very much, Your Honour.
6 Essentially, clearly an application for adjournment was granted
7 and was denied by the Tribunal for an adjournment pending a decision by
8 the (redacted). As I have indicated,
9 His Honour is in the process of completing or -- a judgement which he
10 will provide orally which will have some bearing with respect to the
11 issues that were raised before the Tribunal on an ex parte matter.
12 So my request will be that essentially the proceedings be stood
13 down pending the decision of (redacted) decision
14 have huge repercussions regarding the manner and the method of these
15 proceedings as well as this witness continuing to testify in these
17 And, as indicated, it will be within 15 minutes. His Honour is
18 quite cognizant of the time limitations and is quite cognizant and
19 essentially made it evident that he will provide a decision in an
20 expeditious manner, and it will be provided orally.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: I would like to invite counsel from the Tribunal
22 to make a contribution if they have any contribution to make on this
24 Yes, Mr. Rogers.
25 MR. ROGERS: Your Honours, I know we're all very conscious of the
1 time, but it seems to me sensible to allow the 15 minutes to at least
2 determine where we are with that application and then move on from there.
3 I don't want to lose time, but if we start to force a series of
4 questioning now, I would anticipate that probably we're going to lose the
5 15 minutes arguing about whether we should proceed. And it may be more
6 sensible to just allow the 15 minutes to happen and see where we are.
7 But I'm in Your Honours' hands, of course.
8 MR. EMMERSON: As to the merits, I'm neutral. It seems to us
9 that -- that particularly given that we are a blind-sighted as to the
10 content of the ex parte application, it's difficult for us to make any
11 submission other than to urge upon Your Honours the necessity for these
12 proceedings to be kept on foot so that the Prosecution can close its case
13 this week as it has indicated it intends to do.
14 That said, the only other matter I want to address you upon is
15 that the outcome of the ruling of (redacted) be communicated to the
16 parties. It may be an ex parte hearing and it may -- I mean, as far as I
17 understand the position, no thought has yet been given in those
18 proceedings to whether or not it is communicable either to us or indeed
19 to Your Honours. It can't clearly be communicable to Your Honours and
20 not to the parties because we would then -- none of us be in a position
21 to have a meaningful interchange about it.
22 May I making a practical suggestion. If Your Honours are minded
23 to follow the course proposed by Mr. Rogers, and, as I say, on that I'm
24 neutral, but if you are, then may I suggest you adjourn only until noon.
25 That we re-sit at noon, that the judge be told we will be re-sitting at
1 noon, and he has, therefore, 15 minutes to announce his decision.
2 MR. HARVEY: Your Honours, I have nothing to add to this. It is
3 classically a matter for your determination. I am ready to proceed and I
4 am very keen, as of course is everybody else, that these proceedings
5 finish this week.
6 Thank you.
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: I, too, would like resolution of these
8 proceedings. I always get somewhat concerned when clearly matters that
9 are as important as the matters that are apparently going on that I do
10 not know about are whipped by time. And if a judge needs 15 minutes or
11 17 minutes or -- and I've watched this Chamber and other Chambers take
12 the time that they need in order to make an intelligent and informed and
13 objective decision. You know, I'm not sure that the gentleman is fully
14 appreciative of all the concerns that we all have, and that he'll issue
15 his decision as rapidly as he possibly can.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
17 We're adjourning.
18 MR. EMMERSON: Can I just add one word, and it's just for
19 Your Honours' consideration. The issue of concluding this week, that is
20 to say, Mr. Rogers closing his case this week, is not simply a question
21 of procedural convenience in going over to next week. I make it clear to
22 Your Honours, and Mr. Rogers is aware of this: As soon as the
23 Prosecution have closed their case, on behalf of Mr. Haradinaj I will be
24 making an application for provisional release. And if these proceedings
25 do not conclude on Friday, that application will be delayed. And in our
1 submission, it's gone on long enough. And we need to be in a position to
2 make the application, because my client's liberty is at issue.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. The Chamber is grateful for
4 the contributions made by counsel.
5 We'll take an adjournment, and we'll hope to hear from the judge
6 in 15 minutes' time. And if we do not, we'll inquire.
7 Thank you so much.
8 Court adjourned.
10 [The witness stands down]
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into closed session.
13 We are in closed session.
14 May the witness please be brought in.
15 [The witness takes the stand]
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: While we are still in closed session,
17 (redacted), can you tell us the outcome of your application, please.
18 COUNSEL FOR WITNESS: I believe the information is relayed
19 through --
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you tell us the outcome of your application,
22 COUNSEL FOR WITNESS: I believe the application was heard in an
23 ex parte manner, and unless I obtain leave from --
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: We're just asking for the outcome.
25 COUNSEL FOR WITNESS: Essentially we are prepared to proceed with
1 the cross-examination. But I'm not in a position to disclose what
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] ... thank you very much.
4 COUNSEL FOR WITNESS: Thank you.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Harvey.
6 MR. HARVEY: Your Honour, I did hear you, I do apologise. Just
7 give me one second to organise my computer.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are -- you have -- you can --
9 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Take your time.
11 Cross-examination by Mr. Harvey: [Continued]
12 Q. Witness, yesterday --
13 MR. HARVEY: Yes, thank you. I'm reminded we are in closed
14 session, even though we don't have our flag up.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very --
16 MR. HARVEY: Oh, that's a rather big one there.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
18 May the Chamber please move into open session.
19 MR. ROGERS: It has been there all morning.
20 MR. HARVEY: These glasses, yes.
21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, we're in open
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
25 Yes, Mr. Harvey.
5 Q. And due to your violent behaviour, you were dismissed from that
6 job, were you not?
7 A. No.
8 Q. You drew a weapon and threatened your superior at work, didn't
9 you, and you were dismissed?
10 A. No, sir. That's not correct. I won that trial. It's not true
11 that I drew my weapon.
12 Q. Is it true that you were dismissed?
13 A. I left because of the things that happened, and I was not -- I
14 was not feeling secure to go to work. I had to work nights.
15 Q. Witness, I remind you, you are under oath here to tell the truth.
16 Were you or were you not dismissed from your job?
17 MR. ROGERS: He's answered the question.
18 MR. HARVEY: No. Please, I'm entitled to remind him that he's
19 under oath, and entitled to remind him of the risks of his telling lies
20 to this Court.
21 MR. ROGERS: He's answered the question that was put. That is my
22 objection. That's objection number one.
23 Objection number two is to the relevance of this.
24 And objection number three is that this is a collateral issue to
25 which the witness has answered, and that answer is final. It has got
1 nothing to do with the issues that are being tried before this Court.
2 MR. HARVEY: It goes to credibility of this witness. It goes to
3 his willingness to sit here and tell lies to this Tribunal in the hope
4 that I will not produce the piece of paper that documents his lies.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: But --
6 MR. ROGERS: I'm sorry, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: I beg your pardon. I'm sorry.
8 MR. ROGERS: Forgive me.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: If we are going to raise objections, we raise an
10 objection one objection at a time, we rule on that one, and we carry on.
11 And then if there's a second objection, we will raise the next one later.
12 What's your objection, sir? Now, question asked and answered?
13 That's your objection?
14 MR. ROGERS: That was one. Yes, we could start with that one.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you so much. Sit down. Let's
16 rule on that.
17 Sorry, your answer to that one, you said you want to remind the
18 witness of the risks of not telling the truth.
19 MR. HARVEY: Yes, indeed.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Fine. We will overrule the objection on
21 that basis.
22 You may proceed.
23 MR. HARVEY: Thank you, Your Honours.
24 Q. Witness --
25 MR. ROGERS: The second was to relevance to this line of
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, you -- we told -- we were told this was
3 going to credibility.
4 MR. HARVEY: Absolutely, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Overruled.
6 MR. ROGERS: Your Honours, forgive me. Whether the witness was
7 or was not dismissed at work does not appear to be an issue that goes to
8 credibility. It doesn't go to his credit.
9 MR. HARVEY: The question is whether or not he's telling this
10 Court the truth.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Objection overruled.
12 MR. HARVEY:
13 Q. Witness, I remind you: You are under oath to tell the truth.
14 Now, will you tell the truth, please. Were you dismissed from your job?
15 Yes or no will do as an answer.
16 A. I am telling the truth. I have proof that I left the job and
17 that I was acquitted by the trial. And the things you are saying are not
18 true. And I can bring those things tomorrow to you to see for
20 Q. We don't need to wait.
21 MR. HARVEY: Let's have 1D150537, please.
22 MR. ROGERS: Can Mr. Harvey identify the tab in the binder we're
23 using, please.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Court Officer. Okay.
25 MR. HARVEY: At tab number 32.
6 And I'm going to go to the third paragraph now and the second
8 "On his arrival," you it means essentially here, were asked why
9 you had not arrived time and had intentionally not answered the call from
10 work. You began shouting and making threats, initially verbal ones, and
11 later you also threatened --
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. -- Mr. Harvey.
13 MR. HARVEY: Yes.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: The document has been circulated and we assumed
15 that the document that's been circulated is the document that you called
16 1D150537 and that you are reading from it. The document we have doesn't
17 have what you are saying.
18 MR. HARVEY: Your Honours, I do apologise. There's been a slight
19 mixup at my end here. May I just have a word with my Case Manager for a
20 moment. I apologise.
21 I apologise. I was winging it because I had the wrong document
22 and I just didn't think that I'd got what I was looking for. I've now
23 got it.
24 Q. You see this document states: "Decision on termination of
1 You see that, don't you, sir?
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Harvey, may I ask, before you continue this
3 line of questions.
4 Do you have information about what the witness is saying that
5 he -- he contested this and had a labour case before the court and he won
6 the case? Do you have information about that?
7 MR. HARVEY: I have information to the contrary to that.
22 Q. Witness, I'm not talking about a criminal trial. I'm talking
23 about the termination of your employment. Were you or were you not
25 A. I was not dismissed. I left the job myself because I did not
1 feel secure. I -- I was at risk.
2 Q. So where it says here that your employment was terminated, are
3 you saying this document's a forgery or what?
4 MR. ROGERS: He's just disagreeing with it. And that's -- you
5 can put the point; you've put it to him; he hasn't agreed with the
6 document. That's the end of the matter.
7 MR. HARVEY:
8 Q. Do you accept that as of the (redacted), your appeal
9 against termination of employment was denied?
10 MR. ROGERS: Make it clear whether this was an appeal to a court
11 or whether it was an appeal to another supervisory body within the
12 employment agency.
13 MR. HARVEY: If need be, we'll produce the document.
14 MR. ROGERS: Could Mr. Harvey please put it to the witness, the
15 document, so we're all clear.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: He's pulling out the document, Mr. Rogers.
17 MR. HARVEY: Your Honours, it may take me a moment. I have the
18 document, but we had difficulty with printouts this morning.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Proceed with your cross-examination, sir. You'll
20 come back to the point.
21 MR. HARVEY: I will. Thank you.
17 MR. HARVEY: Could we have 1D150262, and in that bundle could we
18 please go to 0294. It's the document which -- excuse me. I'm looking at
19 the wrong line. 1D150537, and could we please go to 0558.
20 MR. ROGERS: Please may we have the tab, because that's what
21 we're all working from.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]
23 MR. EMMERSON: Just to be clear --
24 MR. HARVEY: 1D150537, at page 0558.
25 MR. EMMERSON: Just to be clear: The tabbed bundle is in fact
1 not what Mr. Harvey is working from, and indeed the Judges don't have a
2 copy of it. That is simply a bundle that was disclosed by the
3 Haradinaj Defence. So whilst there may be some documents in it,
4 Mr. Harvey will not be using the tabbed bundle.
5 MR. ROGERS: [Overlapping speakers] ...
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Overlapping speakers] ... sorry. Mr. Harvey, the
7 ID number you've just quoted now is the same ID number of the dismissal,
8 so I'm not quite sure what you're calling. 1D0537 is 1D0537 that you
9 just referred to a couple of minutes earlier, and that's this document
10 that you gave us.
11 MR. HARVEY: Your Honour, I do apologise. There seems to be a
12 mixup over numbers here. I'm ...
13 MR. ROGERS: Your Honours --
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes.
15 MR. ROGERS: Your Honour --
16 MR. HARVEY: It is --
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Rogers.
18 MR. ROGERS: The -- I've got a supplementary notification from
19 Mr. Harvey which consists of six photographs. My understanding was that
20 the Brahimaj Defence was utilizing the same documents that were being
21 produced by Mr. Haradinaj. Have I misunderstood that?
22 MR. HARVEY: No, Mr. Rogers is quite correct. We are utilizing
23 many of the same documents that Mr. Haradinaj and his team -- or
24 Mr. Haradinaj's team put together. However, we're not specifically using
25 the same bundle. That is not a bundle that is formally before the Court.
1 It's -- it was collated together with joint assistance by all of the
2 Defence teams, but some -- some documents provided by some, some provided
3 by others.
4 MR. ROGERS: Now I understand. It's just that I can find it more
5 quickly if you can give me a tab reference so we're going to follow what
6 you're saying. It may be the Judges don't need to see the document, but
7 for me I need to see it so I can understand what you're saying and I can
8 look at the other documents to see whether there are any others. It's
9 much more helpful if you can. Thank you. That was our understanding.
10 MR. HARVEY: Well, we have copies of this document here. Let's
11 short-circuit it and circulate it to everybody by hand if we may. I'm
12 sorry that --
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Give us the document and then give us the document
15 MR. HARVEY: Yes.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
17 MR. HARVEY: 1D150558, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: 05 ...
19 MR. HARVEY: -- 58.
20 Q. This is headed: Investigation diary, UNMIK international
21 police --
22 MR. ROGERS: No, Your Honours, this needs to be, please, in
23 private session if this document is to be referred to.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
25 [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of the Chamber]
1 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, we're in private
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
4 Yes, Mr. Harvey.
5 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.
6 Q. Witness, do you see, on the (redacted), where it says
7 you asked to get a WAC card. That's a weapons authorisation card. Isn't
8 that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. [Microphone not activated]
11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.
12 MR. HARVEY:
13 Q. [Microphone not activated]
14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.
15 MR. HARVEY: My microphone is on.
16 Can you hear me?
17 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, yes.
18 MR. HARVEY: Testing, testing. Yes?
19 THE INTERPRETER: The English booth can hear you.
20 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.
21 Q. (redacted), you were asking for a card because you
22 didn't have one at the time that you were arrested and charged with
23 possession of fire-arms and ammunition; isn't that correct?
24 A. Yes, it is true. But I was not arrested as you are putting it.
25 They knew my situation, (redacted), they
1 knew the situation I was in. I was not arrested. I only went to give a
2 statement, and then I was given back the weapons.
3 Q. Witness, you are still under indictment (redacted), are you not,
4 in relation to those weapons?
5 COUNSEL FOR WITNESS: The position being taken on behalf of this
6 gentleman is he should not answer any questions where --
7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.
8 COUNSEL FOR WITNESS: -- essentially charges are pending due to
9 self-incrimination with respect to any other --
10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
11 COUNSEL FOR WITNESS: -- outstanding proceeding.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: The microphone is on, ma'am.
13 Maybe if you speak, sir, can you speak closer to the microphone
14 so that the -- they can -- the stenographers can pick up your --
15 COUNSEL FOR WITNESS: Yes. I'll reiterate.
16 Essentially this witness raises the privilege against
17 self-incrimination due to outstanding and ongoing proceedings in any
18 other jurisdiction and --
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: And let me just understand what you are saying,
21 Are you saying that admitting that there are proceedings
22 outstanding against him is -- would be self-incriminating, or is it just
23 a fact that whether there are or are not proceedings against him?
24 COUNSEL FOR WITNESS: I believe I -- there would be no difficulty
25 with respect to responding if there are ongoing proceedings. But if any
1 issue regarding any details or --
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's fair enough. But just this question.
3 COUNSEL FOR WITNESS: Yes, sir.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: You can't object in anticipation. Object --
5 COUNSEL FOR WITNESS: Thank you.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- you are objecting to this question. Are you
7 objecting to this question, sir?
8 COUNSEL FOR WITNESS: As long as it's limited if there are any
9 outstanding charges, that's fine.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
11 MR. HARVEY: That's my question.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Will you please answer, Mr. Witness.
13 Are there any proceedings, criminal proceedings, outstanding
14 against you in (redacted), sir, on this issue? Yes or no? Don't elaborate.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know, Your Honour, because
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. You have answered, sir.
18 "I don't know," Mr. Harvey, is the answer.
19 MR. HARVEY:
20 Q. Yes, Witness, and it's not a truthful answer, is it? Because you
21 asked Mr. Rogers when you met him for your interview, you asked him to
22 take care of those charges for you, didn't you?
23 A. I had nothing to do with these things. You are saying now that
24 there are charges against -- outstanding charges against me, but I don't
25 know anything about that.
1 Q. Very well, Witness. That's your testimony.
2 I want to come now to the actual weapons that were in your
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Harvey, are we still talking about (redacted)?
17 MR. HARVEY: Yes, we are, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
19 MR. HARVEY:
20 Q. So the picture is this: (redacted), you are arrested for
21 weapons possession. You go in (redacted) to ask for a weapons
22 authorisation card (redacted). And then, also, on the (redacted),
23 you tell (redacted) about an attempted murder; isn't that right?
24 A. I was not arrested, please. Mind you, someone is considered
25 arrested when he is imprisoned, when he's put in prison. I simply gave a
1 statement and I was let free to go. (redacted) only gave me the
2 authorisation card and brought me my weapons.
3 Q. And on the (redacted) --
4 MR. HARVEY: Still looking at 1D150558, Your Honours.
5 Q. -- (redacted), you made a statement about an
6 attempted murder, an attempt to murder you; is that right?
7 A. Yes. I don't know about what you are talking about.
8 Q. Do you still have that -- yes, you do still have that document in
9 front of you. (redacted), if you look at the document, sir,
10 you will see: Witness statement about an attempted murder against the
11 witness on (redacted).
12 Do you see that on the document, sir?
13 COUNSEL FOR WITNESS: I believe the document before this
14 gentleman is in English, unless there's a translation --
15 MR. HARVEY: As this gentleman speaks English.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: This gentleman is entitled to documents in the
17 language he understands best.
18 And -- and, if you look, sir, at the last two pages of the
19 document, you'll find that there are -- there's a translation into your
21 MR. HARVEY: There are, indeed. Thank you.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it's true.
23 MR. HARVEY:
24 Q. Why did you wait from the (redacted)
25 (redacted), to report an attempted murder? Because it wasn't
1 true, wasn't it?
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Rogers?
3 MR. ROGERS: Now we have the point. Perhaps the counsel can just
4 put to the witness that the allegation wasn't true rather than asking him
5 why he waited, because that's really what he wants to put to him, that
6 the allegation's not true.
7 MR. HARVEY: No, I really do want to put to him that he has
8 fabricated an allegation, that he's waited (redacted) to fabricate it,
9 and that's what I'm trying to put to the witness with -- if I may be
10 allowed to do so.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Rogers, I'm not quite sure I understand; what
12 is your objection?
13 MR. ROGERS: He hadn't -- it doesn't matter. If you just --
14 counsel just puts to the witness that the allegation is not true and then
15 move on from there, that would be simpler.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: But why do you want do prescribe to counsel how to
17 prosecute his case?
18 MR. ROGERS: Your Honour, I leave it with you.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Objection overruled.
20 MR. HARVEY: Thank you. It certainly saved time.
21 Q. Witness, you waited (redacted) before making a complaint about
22 an attempted murder allegation; it's because it was a lie, isn't it?
23 A. Please, sir. I'm being provoked. I have a document that, when
24 an attempt was made on my life, it was reported to the police. The
25 police came and they mentioned the names that were involved in my
1 attempt -- in the attempt against me, and they are from (redacted). I
2 have the document at home. I can bring it to you tomorrow. You can see
3 for yourselves. I think they are misusing my -- they are misusing facts.
4 I have documents. Where has this gentleman obtained such notes, I don't
6 Q. Witness, you know, don't you, that the attempted murder
7 allegation was found to be unsubstantiated and was not pursued (redacted).
8 You know that, don't you?
9 A. Someone was captured after one year, and his name is here. (redacted)
10 (redacted). I was present there. It's true. And he
11 was (redacted) and he admitted to everything to the
12 police [indiscernible] wearing civilian clothes. I don't know more. I
13 am speaking on the basis of a document that I have related to my murder
14 attempt. I am not talking in vain. I don't know where you have taken
15 such notes. As far as I'm concerned, as I'm saying, I have the document
16 that on the day of the murder attempt, police came to the site of the
17 event. The investigators came, and then I went and reported it to the
19 Q. Could we have 1D150554, then, please, Witness.
20 MR. ROGERS: Again, could you tell us the tab, please.
21 MR. HARVEY: Ah, I understand the document was notified but is --
22 apparently was not in the Haradinaj bundle, so I apologise for that.
23 It's a very short document.
24 MR. ROGERS: Can we see it, please.
25 MR. HARVEY: I'm sorry, I thought you had a copy.
1 MR. ROGERS: No. We -- we have got what was provided by
2 Mr. Haradinaj and --
3 MR. HARVEY: We've got one coming to you.
4 MR. ROGERS: Thank you very much. It's very hard to --
5 Your Honour, forgive me, because it's extremely hard trying to find these
6 documents by reference to the 1Ds, because they're all down the side of
7 the schedule that we have. They're all out of order. They're not
8 chronological in terms of the 1D references. It's very difficult for us
9 to find them and listen at the same time.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, I understand. Well, generally, you know
11 that the Chamber is not involved in how you identify documents amongst
12 ourselves and the identification that you give to us. Now, please
13 identify your documents such that your colleagues on the opposite side
14 are able to identify the documents according to how you told them you are
15 going to be calling them in court, okay?
16 MR. HARVEY: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 You're aware of that, aren't you? And I see you smiling. But
1 the truth is, you're aware of that, aren't you?
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: For the edification of the Bench, Mr. Harvey,
3 where on this document do we find that it relates to this witness?
4 MR. HARVEY: Your Honour, if you will note the file number
5 (redacted) and then refer back to the previous document, 1D150558, it has
6 the same case number on that document, which this witness has accepted
7 refers to him and, indeed, his name appears on that.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thanks for the link, sir.
9 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: It was not clear.
11 MR. HARVEY: I understand it was not clear.
12 Q. Now, Witness, you heard the question. You know that that case
13 was found to be unsubstantiated and was not proceeded with, don't you?
14 MR. ROGERS: There's two questions there. The first one is
15 whether he knew it was unsubstantiated, and the second is whether he knew
16 it was closed.
17 Can he ask one at a time, please.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Harvey.
19 MR. HARVEY:
20 Q. You know the case was unsubstantiated, don't you, Witness?
21 A. No, I didn't know.
22 Q. You know the case was closed, don't you, Witness?
23 A. I didn't know it was closed.
24 Q. You told us yesterday that you were in contact with
25 (redacted). You were in contact with him on a regular basis, weren't
1 you, Witness?
2 A. Yes, I was in regular contact.
3 Q. You will note that this is a document that has his name on it.
4 It's his document. He told you this, didn't he, Witness?
5 MR. ROGERS: We don't know that this is his document,
6 Your Honour. It just has the name Officer (redacted) written on it.
7 We don't actually know who's produced it.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed.
9 Yes, Mr. Harvey.
10 MR. HARVEY: I will leave that there, Your Honour, if this is the
11 witness's answer.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, I'm telling you that I have
13 documents from (redacted) where he writes about myself and my family.
14 Please deal with what I'm here for. Don't deal with such things. There
15 are other people who can see to that.
16 MR. HARVEY: Could we go back now to 3D240056. At tab 40, for my
17 learned friends.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]
19 MR. HARVEY: 3D240056, Your Honours.
20 Your Honour, apparently the printer was not working when we were
21 trying to print this out. We have serious technical problems here.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is the printer working now?
23 MR. HARVEY: Apparently it's not, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Are you able to go on -- can you either
25 circulate what you -- the one copy that you're going to print, or go on
1 to the next point and come back to that later. One of the two.
2 Mr. Harvey?
3 MR. HARVEY: I'm sorry, Your Honour, we're just trying to resolve
4 these technical problems.
5 We have a copy in Albanian which the witness can look at. And
6 this refers back to the final decision in relation to the dismissal from
7 his employment which I said that I would look for and come back to --
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Right.
9 MR. HARVEY: -- for the Court. We can perhaps --
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you have an English version of that copy that
11 you want to have, that you have in Albanian?
12 MR. HARVEY: Yes, I do. One, so far.
13 Let's move on for the time being. In that case, I'm -- these
14 are -- problems are beyond our control.
15 Q. Witness, then, I'm going to come back to your claims about when
16 you first went to Jabllanice, because you told us --
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just a second. This 3D240056, are you done with
18 it? We --
19 MR. HARVEY: I can't do anything with it until we have copies for
20 everybody, so that's --
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Isn't it the one that we've just been shown?
22 MR. HARVEY: Yes, that is the one. If that's -- if that's
23 sufficient for Your Honours' purposes, I'll deal with it now with the
24 witness. I was -- I thought we were waiting until we could get more
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I just want to understand where we are in the
3 MR. HARVEY: I'd love to clean that up, if we can, then move on
4 and -- [Overlapping speakers] ...
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Keep it in abeyance and do what you want to do,
7 MR. HARVEY: Does the witness have a copy of this in Albanian?
8 I'm sorry -- could -- could the witness be provided with a copy in
9 Albanian. I do apologise to the Court Officer.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Court Officer, I'm not sure whether it's not
11 fair at least for the Prosecution to see what it is that the witness is
12 being shown.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 MR. ROGERS: Thank you for your kindness, Your Honour. I'm very
15 happy to move on as quickly as we can.
16 MR. HARVEY: I'm grateful, then.
19 We are in private session.
20 You see that, yes?
21 A. Yes, I have seen it.
22 Q. And you see that it says:
9 That's what it says, doesn't it?
10 MR. ROGERS: I agree it's what it says. Is there another
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, let the witness answer whether he agrees.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please. I think that I've given my
14 answer clearly. I have a decision by the court that I was innocent, that
15 I did not use the gun, that the allegations were not true. And I have
16 the decision at home.
17 What you have here is not true. You can type these kinds of
18 documents anywhere in Kosova.
19 MR. HARVEY:
20 Q. Are you suggesting that this document is a forgery, Witness?
21 A. This document was prepared by people who have contact with the
22 accused. I'm telling you that I have a decision by the court, and I
23 believe the court - I trust the court - I don't believe other people, and
24 I abide by the decision of the court.
25 Q. Witness, you're talking about a completely separate matter.
1 You're talking about a criminal investigation which was not pursued. I'm
2 not asking you about a criminal investigation. I'm asking you to confirm
3 and accept and tell the truth that you were dismissed from your
4 employment and that your application for reinstatement was denied, as
5 this document states.
6 Do you say that this is true or false?
7 A. No. I was not refused. I won the trial, and I had the right to
8 return to my place of work, but I did not return because I did not feel
10 Q. Please bring us those documents tomorrow to prove that.
11 Now, I'll move on, because we're short of time, and I want to
12 raise with you --
13 A. I take full responsibility for those documents. I will bring
14 them tomorrow.
15 Q. Thank you. When you were asked questions on Monday, at 2331 of
16 the transcript, you were asked about the first time that you went to
17 Jabllanice. And you said that you were called to go there, you were
18 called to report there, (redacted)
19 (redacted). You simply were called to go there,
20 and you went yourself.
21 Now, I want to ask you again, Witness: The first time you went
22 to Jabllanice, to the headquarters, when was that and how did you do
24 MR. HARVEY: [Microphone not activated] ... reminded that we are
25 in private session. I would ask that we be in open session.
1 Thank you very much, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into open session.
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, we're in open
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
7 We're in open session. Can you put your question again, now that
8 we are in open session.
9 MR. HARVEY: Yes, thank you.
10 Q. Yesterday -- on Monday, you were asked:
11 "Could you tell us about the first of those times when you were
12 in Jabllanice. Why were you there?"
13 And you answered:
14 "I was called to go there, to report there."
15 You were asked:
16 "Who called to you go there?"
17 You answered:
18 "Lahi Brahimaj.
19 "How were you called to go there? In what way?
20 "I was there with a relative of mine whose name I wouldn't
21 mention because I did not want to cause any harm to him. I was there
22 related to an armament issue.
23 "For the first time," you said of Lahi Brahimaj, "I met him by
24 accident, and they called me for an informative talk, they said."
25 Now, is that the correct version of what happened the first time
1 you went to Jabllanice?
2 A. No.
3 Q. And what is incorrect about that version that you gave on Monday?
4 A. The first time that the weapons were taken from me, I was
5 arrested by these people. And I think I said it clearly several times.
6 I don't know why you are asking the same question again.
7 Q. [Microphone not activated]
8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.
9 MR. HARVEY: Thank you very much.
10 Q. I'm asking the question, Witness, because you've been asked
11 several times about the first time that you went to Jabllanice.
12 Now, are you now saying what you said yesterday, which was, "They
13 came at night, took away my weapons, and then took me with them, and then
14 to Jabllanice"? Is that what you're saying now, they took you in a jeep;
15 is that right?
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Harvey.
17 MR. HARVEY: Yes, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Am I wrong when I remember that there was a big
19 discussion about the first time he was forced against his will to go to
20 Jabllanice, which would be different from the first time he went to
22 MR. HARVEY: You're not wrong in that recollection, Your Honour.
23 I'm simply reading from the transcript, not about force, but the first
24 time that he went to Jabllanice.
25 Q. Witness --
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: But --
2 MR. HARVEY: Sorry.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: You're opposing that part of the statement, of
4 the witness statement, to the statement where he says the first time I
5 was -- I went there against my own will. And that was the time when the
6 weapons were taken.
7 MR. HARVEY: Your Honour, we --
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Unless I don't understand.
9 MR. HARVEY: Your Honour, you are quite correct with respect that
10 yesterday was the first time that he has told this Tribunal that he was
11 taken there by force when his weapons were taken. Yesterday was the
12 first we heard any of that, and so that's why I'm trying to establish now
13 whether he is saying that is the first time or whether it was another
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: So I understand that you will make a difference
16 between the first time he went to Jabllanice and the first time he was
17 forced to go to Jabllanice.
18 MR. HARVEY: Well, there are two different issues there. One is,
19 he told us previously that he was forced to go to Jabllanice but said
20 nothing about that being in relation to weapons having been taken from
21 him at his house. This came out yesterday. That was a completely new
22 story, as far as the Court is concerned.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. As long as we're able to understand
24 whether you're talking about the first time forced, or the first time,
25 full stop.
1 Thank you.
2 MR. HARVEY: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. So, Witness, you're saying the first time you were taken by force
4 to Jabllanice was on about the 13th of May, I think you said yesterday;
5 is that right? [Microphone not activated] ... said they came to take
6 weapons from your house.
7 A. Yes, that's correct. Please, every time I went there by force.
8 I never went there of my own will. Only when I passed by there, when
9 they met me there, and spoke -- I spoke to them.
10 Q. The next time, after -- when you say you were taken there after
11 people had come for weapons. The next time you were taken there was from
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Why don't you just ask to us go into private
18 session rather than cause a lot of things that --
19 MR. ROGERS: Oh, I'm sorry, I'm not trying to cause anything.
20 Can we go into private session.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]
22 May the Chamber please move into private session.
23 [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of the Chamber]
11 Pages 2577-2578 redacted. Private session.
24 Q. Irrespective of their relation to you, you stayed in Jabllanice
25 for, what, about ten days or so, after you were -- you left the
2 A. I can't remember exactly. I stayed there for some time.
3 Q. And nobody harassed you during that time? You were left alone to
4 get on with your business; right?
5 A. When I was staying in Jabllanice?
6 Q. [Microphone not activated] ... yes.
7 A. Yes, they did come to arrest me.
8 Q. And when do you say that was, sir?
9 A. They came on the next day or the day after that ...
10 Q. Who did?
11 A. Arbnor Zeneli.
12 Q. And where did Arbnor Zeneli take you?
13 A. He had an order by Lahi Ibrahimaj [as interpreted].
14 Q. Oh, yes. And what happened?
15 A. The man of the house, the elderly man, went out and told him
16 that, Nobody will be taken away from my house.
17 Q. And I thought you said that you were arrested. Did I
18 misunderstand you? Were you arrested?
19 A. They came to arrest me, but they did not arrest me because --
20 because they couldn't. But they wanted to take me to the headquarters.
21 Q. Okay. So they didn't take you to the headquarters.
22 And then sometime, you told us - I'd like you to try and help us
23 with this - there was an occasion when you were on the road between the
24 village of Kosuriq and Catholic Gllogjan when, again, you say you were
25 arrested. How long was that after the time that you were staying in
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you still want to stay in private session,
3 Mr. Harvey?
4 MR. HARVEY: No, I think it would be better in open session.
5 It's difficult to know what's going to happen next, but let's go into
6 open, please.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into open session.
8 [Open session]
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think --
10 MR. HARVEY:
11 Q. Can you wait just a second, please, Witness.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just hold on, sir.
13 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, we're in open
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you put your question again --
16 MR. HARVEY: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- in open session, sir.
18 MR. HARVEY:
3 MR. HARVEY: Thank you, Your Honours.
4 Q. When this occurred (redacted), how
5 long after you had been staying in the house in Jabllanice was that?
6 A. About a week later.
7 Q. Because in your first statement you said that this was probably
8 the end of June or the beginning of July 1998. That's paragraph 21.
9 Would you agree with that, end of July -- end of June, beginning
10 of July?
11 A. (redacted). I told you
12 about that. (redacted).
13 Please. These are facts. I am giving my arguments about the things
14 here. (redacted)
19 A. Other people were kidnapped on the same road, and I was --
20 Q. [Overlapping speakers] ... just about you.
21 MR. ROGERS: The witness is trying to answer.
22 MR. HARVEY: He's trying to avoid answering.
23 MR. ROGERS: Perhaps Mr. Harvey can not talk over him.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the witness please be given an opportunity to
1 And can you finish your answer, sir.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] (redacted)
4 MR. HARVEY:
8 Q. What do you mean by "several times," Witness? Two, three, four?
9 A. That was the road that linked my village to other places, and I
10 used to pass on that road several times, and I had my sisters, other
11 relatives, along that road, so I -- whenever I went there, I sometimes
12 ran across them, and when I ran into them, (redacted).
14 (redacted). And if you wish, I can tell you about
15 that in detail.
16 Q. Oh, yes. I do wish that you would tell us some more detail.
17 On which of these occasions is it that you say you saw three
18 young men brought to Jabllanice?
19 MR. HARVEY: Just looking confused? Or ...
20 MR. ROGERS: I was confused about the occasions --
21 MR. HARVEY: At paragraph 14 of the statement.
22 MR. ROGERS: The -- Your Honours, the examination has progressed
23 in a style which has opened up a whole variety of occasions, and now it's
24 becoming a little confusing, perhaps it's only me, as to what is being
25 put to the witness. Perhaps Mr. Harvey could try to put some more
1 concrete and straight questions.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: What is being put to the witness is, of the
3 several times, that are over ten times that the witness has just referred
4 to, that (redacted)
5 which of those several locations was the occasion when he saw the three
6 young men.
7 Wasn't that the question.
8 MR. EMMERSON: May I -- [Microphone not activated] ... may I
9 speak for a moment?
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just a second, sir. Just a second, sir.
11 Was that the question, sir?
12 MR. HARVEY: That was the question.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Right.
14 MR. HARVEY: Or which of the ten or more times (redacted)
15 (redacted) is the one that he says that he saw three
16 young men being brought to the village.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, what's confusing about that? Fine.
18 MR. EMMERSON: May I intervene briefly, because I'm obviously
19 trying to follow the evidence as well, and Mr. Harvey was about to take
20 the witness to a passage in the witness statement on this point. If
21 Your Honours may recall the testimony of the witness earlier - I don't
22 want to repeat it - as to where it was he was taken from on the occasion
23 when the three young men came.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's fine.
25 MR. EMMERSON: Well, then the question, as formulated, is
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, that's -- that's -- I'm not correcting the
3 question. I'm just repeating the question as put. And if the question
4 is inaccurate, that's Mr. Harvey's problem. Now, I will ask you to
5 please sit down, and the witness will tell him that he's inaccurate.
6 MR. HARVEY:
7 Q. Witness, let's break it down. There was an occasion when you say
8 you saw three people being brought -- sorry. Three Romas and one
9 Albanian man and one Serb being brought to Jabllanice. Do you remember
10 giving that statement?
11 A. Yes. I don't know whether they were Roma or whatever. I only
12 know that they spoke Albanian. I don't know their ethnic origin.
13 Q. And on which of these many occasions do you now say you witnessed
14 those people being brought to Jabllanice, to the headquarters?
15 A. (redacted). They were arrested before
17 Q. Witness, your testimony is that they were arrested before the
18 outbreak of the war? Yes?
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: He's just said so.
20 MR. HARVEY:
21 Q. I would like to take you to paragraph 14 of your statement 03046.
23 MR. EMMERSON: [Microphone not activated]
24 MR. HARVEY: March ... first -- first statement.
25 (redacted), it was signed.
1 Q. And, Witness, this immediately follows, in point of time, where
3 MR. HARVEY: Sorry. We probably should go into closed session at
4 this point. Private session.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
6 [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of the Chamber]
5 Q. Well, you said here at paragraph 14:
6 "During our stay in the headquarters in Jabllanice --"
7 Please follow me.
8 "During out stay in the headquarters in Jabllanice, we witnessed
9 how one Serb, three Romas, and one Albanian man were brought into the
11 Do you see that?
12 A. Yes, I see that. They were there before me. They were arrested
13 before the beginning of the war, (redacted).
14 Q. Well, you see the difficulty, don't you, Witness, that you
15 haven't said that anywhere else in this statement? Not here. And here
16 you are saying --
17 A. [No interpretation]
18 Q. Excuse me, let me finish the question, please.
19 Here you are saying, During our stay, we witnessed how they were
20 brought into the headquarters.
21 A. Yes. I am repeating. They were taken from the basement and
22 brought to the -- the headquarter. The staff was separate from the
24 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, could the witness be asked to repeat.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: The interpreter would like you to repeat your
1 answer, Mr. Witness.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, I already said that they were
3 brought to the headquarters from the basement. I mean that the staff was
4 in a separate building from the prison.
5 MR. HARVEY:
6 Q. What do you mean "the staff was in a separate building from" -
7 what you call - "the prison"?
8 MR. ROGERS: It seems quite clear. In the separate buildings.
9 Perhaps my learned friend could try another question.
10 MR. HARVEY: No. I think I'm perfectly content with this
12 Q. Did you witness them being brought into the headquarters?
13 MR. ROGERS: He's asked and answered that.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, that was answered.
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: Just because - and I do apologise - so I'm not
16 confused: My understanding of the state of this gentleman's testimony is
17 that these people were brought from the cellar to the headquarters.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, he hasn't used the word "cellar."
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, basement. I'm sorry.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: He has said two separate buildings.
21 MR. GUY-SMITH: Okay.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's quite possible that they were coming from the
23 one building to another. I don't know. But he is --
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: [Overlapping speakers] ...
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't think it's for us to speculate.
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: Okay.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: We can ask the witness to explain what he means.
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm just trying to make sure that I understand at
4 this point in time.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, let's let the witness explain and then we
6 can -- we can all understand what he means.
7 Sir, you said, when you were being asked whether you witnessed
8 these people being brought into the headquarters, you're saying they were
9 brought from one building into another. Is that what you said? Am I
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: So --
13 MR. HARVEY:
14 Q. What it is you mean by "the headquarters"? What building do you
15 call the headquarters?
16 A. I mean the staff. There were two buildings: One for the staff;
17 one for the prison. The prison was separate from the staff. They were
18 in the same yard, but there were two different buildings.
19 Q. You've described a building which had three bedrooms and a
20 cellar. And you've described a kitchen area. Are you saying there's
21 another building that is the staff, the headquarters?
22 A. No. Please. I explained it clearly. The kitchen was separate.
23 The building from where these children were brought out was also
25 Q. The headquarters is that whole area, isn't it? It's the
1 buildings and the yard. That's what you call the headquarters, isn't it?
2 A. No, they were separate. Please understand me.
3 Q. Which building do you say, then, is the headquarters? The one
4 with the three bedrooms and the cellar? Or is it a different building?
5 A. At the entrance there were -- there was a staff and the kitchen
6 in the same building. Then the second building was the prison, sir,
7 where people were detained, were beaten up, and that was it.
8 Q. Witness, what you're saying -- what you said here was that you
9 saw when these people, these -- all of these people, five people, were
10 brought to that headquarters area. Not from another building. You saw
11 when they were first brought in, didn't you?
21 A. Yes. In my opinion, the children were kept there for several
23 Q. You said nothing in this paragraph, nothing in this statement,
24 about the children, as you call them, the young people, being brought
25 from the cellar, did you?
1 A. I am not saying they were children just to say this, but they
2 were children, in fact. This is true.
3 Q. Witness, you heard the question. Please don't avoid it. You
4 said nothing about them being brought from the cellar, did you?
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I understand what is the dispute here,
6 Mr. Harvey.
7 MR. HARVEY: Your Honour, yes, absolutely. The plain meaning of
8 the words here, the plain meaning of the witness's words, is that he
9 claims to have been present already in Jabllanice when these five people
10 were actually brought to Jabllanice. That is the plain meaning of his
11 words --
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: But read -- read the entire paragraph.
13 MR. HARVEY: I have.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me tell you, let's listen to what this witness
15 is saying. He said "During our stay in the headquarters in Jabllanice,
16 we witnessed how one Serb, three Romas, and one Albanian man were brought
17 into the headquarters."
18 Carry on.
19 "They were ordered to serve the commanders with tea and something
20 to eat. I could observe that they had all -- they had all -- they all
21 had been beaten very badly, and when they brought them into the
22 headquarters they handled them very roughly."
23 These are people who are already in the -- in the institution.
24 MR. HARVEY: Your Honour, I cannot confirm that, and I don't
25 think Your Honour can.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] [Overlapping
2 speakers] ...
3 MR. HARVEY: No, but the witness has said this. And that's a
4 matter of whether you accept what the witness is saying. Obviously
5 you're the judges of fact. What I -- what I read this to mean, and I
6 will be very plain --
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Overlapping speakers] ...
8 MR. HARVEY: How I read this and interpret it is that the witness
9 is saying he saw them brought to the headquarters area. The whole -- the
10 place that he has described as the headquarters - please, let me just
11 finish - and that they had already been beaten before they got there.
12 Now, you know that the witness claims that he has information -- or that
13 he (redacted). He claims to
14 have been there. He claims to have been here. He claims to have seen
16 My point is that the plain meaning of this paragraph as I read
17 it, and I may be the only one who sees this reading of it, is that he saw
18 them when they were first brought to Jabllanice.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: But in the meantime, Mr. Harvey, the question you
20 have about this and the way you read it, the witness has clearly answered
21 that question. And he says they came not from outside the headquarters
22 area, they came from one building to another. Which is the -- which is
23 the way Judge Moloto and, for that matter, I read it.
24 So shouldn't you go on?
25 MR. HARVEY: Well, I was going on. In fact, the question I was
1 asking in which the witness, in my submission, was avoiding answering,
2 was that at no stage in this statement does he claim that those people
3 were in the cellar, were being brought from the cellar. Which is what he
4 is saying now.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]
6 MR. HARVEY:
7 Q. Witness, it's correct, isn't it, that you did not say that those
8 people were brought from the cellar?
9 A. Sir, you asked me where they were brought from. I said they were
10 brought from the cellar when we were there.
11 Q. In your statement you say nothing about them being in the cellar.
12 MR. ROGERS: Your Honour, I -- [Overlapping speakers] ...
13 MR. HARVEY: Please, I -- I'm sorry I really --
14 MR. ROGERS: -- may I object.
15 MR. HARVEY: -- do insist on an answer to this question.
16 MR. ROGERS: May I object. We've been over and over and over
17 this point, and it must be clear that we have exhausted it. And I would
18 ask that Your Honours direct that the case move on to another subject.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Harvey, will you move on, please.
20 The statement tells us where the people were brought to. It
21 doesn't tell us where they were brought from. That's what the statement
23 MR. HARVEY: I accept that -- [Microphone not activated] ...
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: So let's move on, sir. Yes, we can accept that he
25 never said in the statement where they were brought from, but he told us
1 where they were brought to. It stands to reason. We see it.
2 MR. HARVEY: [Microphone not activated] ...
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: So we can move on. Let's move on.
4 MR. HARVEY: I can accept that that's --
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's move on.
6 MR. HARVEY: I'm about to do so.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] ... yes.
8 MR. HARVEY:
12 Is that a serious answer, Witness?
13 A. Yes, it is a serious answer.
14 Q. Very well. You were on good terms with Lahi Brahimaj after the
15 war, weren't you?
16 A. No, it's not true.
17 Q. You spent time together with him in Albania, didn't you?
18 A. Yes. I have photographs with him when he invited me for dinner.
19 Q. Photographs of you smiling in a group together; right?
20 A. Yes. You can smile even if you are under pressure, because of
21 the words he said to me and how my life -- what -- how my life developed
22 after that.
23 Q. And you took money to help his nephew get to Italy, didn't you?
24 MR. HARVEY: Sorry, we are in private session. This is clearly
25 something that can be answered in open session, I think.
1 May we go into open session, please, Your Honour.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, this is no lie.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into open session.
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, we're back in open
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.
8 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.
9 Q. But my question, Witness, was: You took money to help Lahi's
10 nephew get to Italy, didn't you?
11 A. No, that's not correct. In the situation I was, I couldn't do
12 anything to take his nephew to Italy. I was not in that position. If I
13 was, I would have taken my family.
14 Q. Just to be clear, I'm suggesting that was in approximately
15 December of 1998. That was when you were having dinner together with him
16 in Tirana, wasn't it?
17 A. Yes. I can show you also the hotel they invited me to and I was
18 obliged to go. They called me.
19 Q. Even after the war, in 1999, you were on good terms with the KLA
20 and with Lahi Brahimaj, weren't you?
21 MR. ROGERS: KLA is a very large organisation. Perhaps it can
22 just be expressed to a single individual.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. -- and I don't know how he becomes friends
24 with KLA as a -- which is not a human being.
25 MR. HARVEY:
1 Q. You joined a celebration on Flag Day, that's the
2 28th of November, 1999, didn't you, in Peje?
3 A. No. Do you have any proof of that? It is true that I took part
4 in the celebrations on the occasion of the Flag's Day. I do it every
5 year as an Albanian. But I don't recall when.
6 Q. As long as you agree that you were present at a KLA celebration
7 of Flag Day in November of 1999. Do you accept that?
8 A. That celebration was staged by the government of Kosova, not by
9 the KLA. It was the Kosova government. And in every such rally, I have
10 taken part.
11 Q. [Microphone not activated]
12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone. Microphone.
13 MR. HARVEY: I'm so sorry. I think that's a convenient moment.
14 It may well be that I won't have any more questions. If I do, it will
15 just be one or two. But I'd just like a moment to reflect.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: We're giving you a moment to reflect. Will you
17 please reflect and come back to us. We want to know whether you still
18 have questions or not.
19 MR. HARVEY: Yes. Okay.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 [Defence counsel confer]
22 MR. HARVEY: Your Honour, I have no further questions. Thank
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Harvey.
25 Mr. Guy-Smith.
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'll take the four minutes and then we can start
2 again. I'll take the four minutes. I'll take every second I can get.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Go ahead.
4 Cross-examination by Mr. Guy-Smith:
5 MR. GUY-SMITH:
6 Q. Good afternoon, sir. I'd like to see if there are a couple of
7 things that we can agree about in the remaining time that we have left.
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: Could we go back to -- this will be tab 1, which
9 will be 0346 for Your Honours, paragraph 14.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: 03 ...
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- 46.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: 46.
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: Paragraph 14.
14 Q. Do you have that in front you, sir?
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, for the sake of record: It's 03046.
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you. That's the paragraph that we've just
17 been discussed.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Right. Thank you.
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: There go my four minutes. I hoped to get three
1 questions, but I only got one. But, it's better than nothing.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Better than nothing. By which you mean? You
3 still have two more questions to ask later? Okay.
4 Once again, Mr. Witness, we've come to the end of our working
5 day. We're still not done with you. You still have to come back
6 tomorrow. I remind you once again ...
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: I -- I ...
8 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we excuse you, there's something that we
10 need to do that might affect tomorrow's time, so you stay there for a
11 while longer.
12 Do the parties have anything to say about scheduling for tomorrow
14 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. We are confident that we will conclude to
15 enable Mr. Rogers to close the Prosecution case before we rise tomorrow.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: What about starting time tomorrow? Do you have
17 anything to say on that?
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm happy to start as early as practicable,
19 considering --
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, okay. Let's --
21 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- concerning some of the concerns that I've
22 heard. I'm happy to start any time.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me say what messages have been passed on to
24 the Bench.
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: Sure.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: We've been alerted to a possible request that we
2 start at 8.00 tomorrow because we want to cover time lost today, and then
3 I thought the parties were going to make representations on that point.
4 MR. ROGERS: Your Honour, I have no difficulty with that. We
5 didn't know how long Mr. Harvey would be, whether he would conclude
6 today. So with that in mind, we anticipated we may need a little longer
7 than perhaps necessary. I don't know how long Mr. Guy-Smith thinks he's
8 going to be. I think we're really in his hands. Because I will be very
9 short. I don't know what Mr. Emmerson's planning to do.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: How short is short going to be?
11 MR. ROGERS: I'm not going to hold myself to it.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
13 MR. ROGERS: It will be short, not long.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
15 Mr. Guy-Smith.
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, part of the reason that I wanted to do what
17 we did today as an experiment dealing with a relatively easy question was
18 to get some kind of a sense or a feeling for how long things would take.
19 I have structured the examination in such a fashion that most of the
20 questions to be asked are sufficiently, I think, straightforward and
21 clear and easy to follow, that if we have an honest give and flow in
22 terms of question and answer, I could get done starting at 9.00.
23 My concerns, however, are seeing what happened in the brief four
24 minutes that we just had, that we may need a bit more time. So I would
25 suggest we start -- [Overlapping speakers] ...
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: You've got a feeling now in the four minutes. Can
2 you give us a straightforward clear answer how much time you think you
3 will need tomorrow?
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: I think that I will need at least two sessions
5 and probably two and a half.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, sir.
7 Do you still want to start at 8.00? It looks like you're the one
8 who wanted to start at 8.00, Mr. Rogers.
9 MR. ROGERS: [Overlapping speakers] ... to rush out of bed for
10 8.00, but we will if we think we need it. I don't know what Mr. Emmerson
11 thinks his time will be, but I'm happy to come early.
12 MR. EMMERSON: I think -- I think, based on discusses with
13 Mr. Rogers, that on the state of the evidence so far, half a session
14 would be sufficient to deal with Mr. Rogers and any questions that I may
15 have. Is that -- I mean, unless Mr. Rogers dissents from that.
16 That means that as matters currently stand, unless there's a
17 significant change over the next -- during the course of Mr. Guy-Smith's
18 cross-examination, he ought to be in a position to have two and a half
19 sessions sitting at 9.00.
20 We have three sessions altogether.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. And if he has two and a half, and the
22 remaining half you two will share.
23 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: And we'll finish?
25 MR. EMMERSON: On the current state of the evidence, yes.
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: I think what Mr. Emmerson is suggesting, that as
2 the evidence has thus far been presented, and having some appreciation of
3 where I am going - and I think he has a good appreciation of where I'm
4 going - that based upon the current state of the evidence as between
5 Mr. Rogers and Mr. Emmerson, they can finish what they need to do in a
6 half an hour.
7 MR. EMMERSON: Half a session.
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: Half a session. I'm sorry, half a session.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] ...
10 MR. EMMERSON: [Microphone not activated] ... the only question
11 is, is whether he -- in the unlikely event that there's a change of
12 course either by myself or Mr. Rogers arising out of Mr. Guy-Smith's
13 cross-examination, the only question is whether the Court, out of an
14 abundance of caution, will want to sit an hour early because there's a
15 possibility that things might change. I can't guarantee they won't.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, I think -- I was going to suggest that we do
17 that so that we have some little fat -- a buffer, because if we don't do
18 that and we need to sit longer tomorrow, then there's no way we can do
20 So, that being the case, we are going to adjourn to 8.00 tomorrow
21 morning, if everybody else is listening. Is that okay?
23 Now, can I come back to you, Mr. Witness. We will start at 8.00
24 instead of 9.00 tomorrow morning, okay? If you can just wake up just one
25 hour earlier and that will be the last day, hopefully.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't mind that, Your Honour.
2 But I have a question. Shall I bring these papers, these documents with
3 me tomorrow? I brought these two cards with me when he said to me
4 yesterday that you haven't been in a -- a member of the KLA. These are
5 the documents that I have with me to show that I have been.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] ...
7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] ...
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Your Honour.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Your Honour has got a microphone on, ma'am.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, we couldn't hear anything.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: I asked the witness to bring the documents that
13 shows -- show that he is a member of the KLA or was a member of the KLA
14 tomorrow, together with the documents that he's promised today to bring
15 because it is now late in the evening, particularly for you people there,
16 to start looking at the documents here and now. Okay?
17 So bring those documents tomorrow and bring the documents that
18 you were asking me about a few minutes ago tomorrow as well. We can look
19 at them tomorrow.
20 Having said that, again I remind you that you may not discuss the
21 case with anybody until you are finally excused from further testimony.
22 See you tomorrow at 8.00 in the morning.
23 I beg your pardon. May the Chamber please move into closed
25 [Closed session]
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, we're back in open
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
13 We are adjourned to tomorrow morning, 8.00, same place.
14 Court adjourned.
16 to be reconvened on Friday, the 20th day