1 Wednesday, 2nd December, 1998
2 (Open session)
3 --- Upon commencing at 2.35 p.m.
4 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Please take
5 your seat. Mr. Usher, could you please make sure that
6 the accused is brought in?
7 (The accused entered court)
8 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) I would like
9 to greet everyone. Hello to the interpreters. I hope
10 everybody can hear me. I am also greeting the members
11 of the Prosecution team, the members of the Defence
12 team. Good afternoon, Mr. Jelisic.
13 I see that Witness B is already in the
14 courtroom. Can you hear me, Witness B? Have you been
15 able to take a rest? Do you feel comfortable?
16 THE WITNESS: Yes.
17 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Thank you.
18 I'm sorry for the slight delay. The interpreters have
19 worked very hard this morning. Judge Rodrigues has
20 worked very hard also this morning. We've all worked
21 very hard, in fact, so we took a few minutes more to
22 take a bit of rest, but we may now resume our work.
23 May I remind you that we are in public
24 session, that the witness is under oath, and that the
25 witness has been granted a number of protective
1 measures. Therefore, I will ask that since we are in
2 open session, every document be shown on the screens of
3 the public gallery.
4 Mr. Greaves, you have the floor.
5 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much, Your
7 WITNESS: WITNESS B (Resumed)
8 Cross-examination by Mr. Greaves:
9 [Witness answers through Interpreter]
10 Q. Witness B, I am going to ask you some
11 questions now on behalf of Mr. Jelisic, and I would
12 like you to --
13 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) You will be
14 the only counsel putting questions to the witness; is
15 that right, Mr. Greaves?
16 MR. GREAVES: That's right, Your Honour.
17 Q. Witness B, can I just ask you this before I
18 start asking you some questions: If you don't
19 understand my question, please remember to stop me and
20 ask me to repeat it again so that you can understand
21 it, all right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And if you want to take a pause or anything
24 like that because you are feeling a bit upset or
25 anything, please ask and we'll make arrangements for
1 you to do that, all right?
2 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness please be
3 advised to move closer to the microphone, please?
4 MR. GREAVES:
5 Q. Yes. I think you may need to move a little
6 closer to the microphone, Witness B. It's not picking
7 up your voice.
8 Thank you very much, Mr. Usher.
9 Witness B, I would like to ask you, first of
10 all, about your -- I think you arrived in The Hague
11 this week; is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Since arriving in The Hague but before you
14 began giving evidence yesterday, did you discuss that
15 evidence with anybody?
16 A. No.
17 Q. So you didn't spend some time with
18 Mr. Tochilovsky and go over what you were likely to say
19 or your statements about these incidents?
20 A. I don't know.
21 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Why are you
22 putting this question to the witness, Mr. Greaves?
23 What is your aim?
24 MR. GREAVES: The next set of questions I
25 think will make clear what my objective is, and perhaps
1 you would be patient, please.
2 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Yes.
3 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much.
4 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) I will try to
5 be patient, Mr. Greaves.
6 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much, Your
8 Q. Witness B, my next question is this: Since
9 you gave evidence yesterday afternoon, have you
10 discussed that evidence with anybody?
11 A. No, I have not, with anyone.
12 Q. Thank you very much. I'll move on now,
13 please, if I may? I want to ask you, first of all, now
14 about your arrival at what I think is called the Laser
15 company on the 6th of May of 1992. Just so that we
16 understand the setting, please, is it right that the
17 Laser company is a bus or transport company?
18 A. It was on the 6th of May, not 16th of May --
19 Q. I think you may have misheard, I think I said
20 the 6th, but your arrival at the Laser company on the
21 6th of May, I want to know a little bit about the
22 physical --
23 A. On the 6th of May.
24 Q. The Laser company, is that a bus company?
25 A. Yes, it is a bus company. That's where the
1 buses would come and they would leave from there, and
2 it was called the Laser company.
3 Q. And the buildings that you were taken to, was
4 that -- I hope that you understand the difference
5 between the two -- was that the bus station or where
6 the buses were repaired?
7 A. No, it was neither. It was a restaurant.
8 This is where people ate.
9 Q. So this was part of the bus station where
10 people would actually get on the bus and get off the
12 A. Yes. This was within the compound of the
13 Laser company, it was this restaurant, and I was there.
14 Q. And, again, so that we can get the picture of
15 what the building was being used for, is it right that
16 this building was being used as a collection point for
17 people who had been detained and who were then moved
18 after a couple of days to some other detention
20 A. Yes. That is what the building was used for.
21 Q. And in your own case, you were moved to the
22 Luka facility on the 8th of May.
23 A. That's right.
24 Q. During the period in which you were held at
25 the Laser company, were you always kept in the
2 A. Yes, I was.
3 Q. I want to ask you now about the voice that
4 you heard at the Laser company. It is right, isn't it,
5 that you did not physically see Mr. Jelisic at the
6 Laser company buildings?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And what it comes to is that you heard a
9 particular voice on one of the occasions -- one of the
10 days when you were at the Laser company?
11 A. Yes, I heard Goran's voice. I did not know
12 that it was Goran, but on the 8th of May, that it was
14 Q. I'm going to come back to your knowledge of
15 Mr. Jelisic in a moment, but I just want to explore a
16 little, if I may, the circumstances at the restaurant.
17 Was this on the 6th of May or on one of the days
19 A. On the 6th of May.
20 Q. And you were still in the restaurant building
21 at the time when it took place?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. The voice that you heard on that occasion,
24 was it inside the restaurant or was it something that
25 you heard taking place outside the building?
1 A. Inside the building. I could not see
2 outside. I was inside the building. It wasn't just
3 me; there was quite a few of us. There were a lot of
4 prisoners or detainees in the restaurant.
5 Q. I understand that, Witness B, but can I just
6 explore it a little further? You were inside the
7 restaurant, but from where did the voice come? Was the
8 voice actually inside the restaurant or was the voice
9 outside the building?
10 A. Inside the restaurant.
11 Q. Thank you. Now, it's right, isn't it, that
12 you had never heard that voice before that night?
13 A. Never.
14 Q. And, indeed, you did not know Goran Jelisic
15 from before the war at all, did you?
16 A. Never, never in my life had I met him.
17 Q. And you had never heard of him either?
18 A. Never, never.
19 Q. I want to look at the conditions inside the
20 restaurant. Was it at night when this incident took
21 place when you heard the voice?
22 A. It was night, about 8.00. There were no
23 lights. There was some small lamp, but you couldn't
24 really see.
25 Q. So --
1 A. This was on the 6th of May at night, around
2 8.00, at least this is my best guess.
3 Q. Well, it may be that the time doesn't matter,
4 but in any event, it was dark outside; the only
5 light --
6 A. Dark, dark.
7 Q. The only light that was present in the
8 building was a small light which didn't enable you to
9 see at all?
10 A. Not at all. Not at all.
11 Q. So just to make it clear, it is only a
12 question of you hearing a voice; you did not see
13 anybody who was speaking on that occasion, you
14 physically couldn't see anybody?
15 A. I could not. No, I could not. I could only
16 hear the voice because I did not know who it was. In
17 fact, there were three of them. They entered --
18 Q. Three people speaking?
19 A. Yes. The third had a rifle, and he
20 ordered -- he was ordered to cock his rifle, to train
21 it on us so that we wouldn't budge.
22 Q. Now, I want to ask you this, please: The
23 voice that you heard, did you hear that for a very
24 short period, a matter of seconds, or was there a lot
25 of conversation and speech?
1 A. It was about ten to fifteen minutes, that is
2 the time span within which this happened.
3 Q. Would it be right to say, Witness B, that at
4 the time when you were first taken into detention, you
5 were confused and in a confused state having just been
7 A. Who wouldn't be confused at that time? We
8 didn't know who was coming -- to come for my house, to
9 see these people all scared. We were helpless. We
10 didn't know what to do. Nobody had any idea.
11 Everybody used to live well. We were used to good
12 living. I almost died from fear there.
13 Q. I'm not criticising you in any way,
14 Witness B; you understand that. I'm just trying to
15 establish what frame of mind you were in and how well
16 you were able to assess the circumstances in which you
17 found yourself; do you understand that?
18 A. Of course, I understand.
19 Q. Thank you. Given that there was only -- I'm
20 sorry. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt, Your
22 Given that there was only a very small light
23 which didn't enable you to see terribly well, can you
24 tell us this, please: How were you able to see any
25 beatings taking place or the guard pointing a gun?
1 A. I saw because there were windows, there was
2 moonlight. Of course, you could see; it wasn't
3 entirely dark. At any rate, he ordered the guard to
4 cock his gun and train it on us, and then they called
5 us one by one, and they had to stand against the wall,
6 to spread their legs and raise their arms, and then
7 they started beating them and then they took turns at
8 beating them. Two or three men were beating; and some
9 documents were taken away, they were thrown out. The
10 man who had been beaten asked to be given back those
11 documents, but the next day, they couldn't find them.
12 Q. Yesterday in evidence, you said this when you
13 were asked about who it was who had said, "Cock your
14 rifle and point it at them," you told the Court, "I
15 think it was Goran Jelisic." Do you remember saying
16 that to us?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Would it be right to say that you are not
19 sure when you say, "I think it was him"? You are not
20 sure that it was him?
21 A. I never knew this man until I saw him in the
22 Luka camp on the 8th of May. That's when I knew that
23 this was Goran Jelisic from Laser, and I recognised him
24 by his voice.
25 Q. All right. Well, let's move on to another
1 topic please, Witness B, if we may. You've described,
2 upon your arrival at the Luka detention facility, being
3 taken initially -- after handing your documents in,
4 being taken to a hangar and finding there a woman. Do
5 you remember telling us about that yesterday?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. The woman, was she a Serb or a --
8 A. A girl, a girl, it was a girl, and it was a
9 Serbian girl. I don't know exactly, but she was a
10 girl. I'm not sure whether she was Serbian, but for
11 me, it was a girl, and she was a very pretty,
12 attractive girl.
13 Q. But was she in any kind of uniform or was she
14 dressed in civilian clothes or what?
15 A. Civilian.
16 Q. And did she tell you that she had had her
17 breast cut off or were you able to see that or was
18 there just simply a large bandage or wound that you
19 could see? How did you know that?
20 A. She didn't tell it to me. She told it to
21 everybody who was present in the hangar. Of course,
22 you could see that the woman had breasts, and she had a
23 bandage where the breast was. She said that the
24 Muslims had cut off the breast. We could see that her
25 body was normal, but we had to watch and listen to what
1 she was saying because we were completely helpless.
2 Q. Did you learn the name of this person at any
4 A. No, no, I did not.
5 Q. Was this the only occasion when you saw this
7 A. I saw this girl on that day when she
8 appeared, and never again. During my time at Luka, I
9 never saw her again there.
10 Q. All right. I'd like to now ask you, please,
11 what time of day it was that you arrived at Luka?
12 A. Around 1.30 or 2.00 on the 8th of May. From
13 Laser, we were bussed to Luka.
14 Q. And before -- I'll start again. Was it
15 immediately after you had handed in your documents in
16 the way that you've described? Was it immediately
17 after that that you were taken to the hangar?
18 A. Immediately.
19 Q. And --
20 A. I'm sorry. The bus stopped right by the
21 hangar, by the door, and we went directly from the bus
22 into the hangar. We just had to throw all the
23 documents as we were entering. This is what we were
24 ordered, and this is what we did.
25 Q. Inside the hangar, was it dark inside there
1 when you first went in?
2 A. It wasn't dark. It was daytime. It was a
3 nice day, sunny, but to me, it was a deadly day when I
4 realised how many people there were in the hangar.
5 There were glass shards from the explosion when the
6 bridge had been blown up, and so you couldn't stand.
7 The whole floor was filled with shards. I was very
9 Q. Were the doors to the hangar closed after you
10 had gone into it?
11 A. The door was open. Both doors were wide
13 Q. I think there are doors at both the front and
14 the back of the building; is that right?
15 A. No, no, only on one side. No, no, they were
16 only from one side, not from the front and back.
17 Q. All right.
18 MR. GREAVES: If Your Honours will just give
19 me a moment, please.
20 Q. I'd like you to look at the exhibit bundle,
21 please, and the first photograph in that exhibit
23 A. Yes, of course.
24 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Please go on,
25 Mr. Greaves.
1 MR. GREAVES: I can't see the witness at the
2 moment, and I'd like to be able to see him as I ask him
3 questions, please, because the usher is in the way.
4 Thank you very much.
5 Q. Witness B, have you had a look at that
7 A. Yes, I recognise it.
8 Q. Would you agree with me that that is a
9 photograph of what might be called the front side of
10 the hangar?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. I'd like you now to look -- well, can you
13 just help me with this. At the back of the hangar, on
14 the opposite side from the side which we can see on
15 that photograph, is there a railway line, a railway
17 A. Yes, that is correct. There is a railway
18 track. I believe that there are two tracks there, a
19 double track behind.
20 Q. I'd like you to look at two photographs,
21 please, and before they get an exhibit number, just
22 have a look at them, please.
23 A. Yes, of course.
24 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: The Prosecution would like
25 to see the photos first because we've never seen them.
1 MR. GREAVES: Of course.
2 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) I quite agree
3 with Mr. Tochilovsky, Mr. Greaves, and these exhibits
4 should receive a number anyway. You are trying to
5 impeach the witness on some very specific issues;
6 therefore, it is necessary for the Judges and for the
7 members of the Prosecution team to be able to refer to
8 the photographs on the basis of which you are trying to
9 do this, and it's very important that the Judges should
10 be able to see these photographs.
11 MR. GREAVES: Of course, and I apologise if
12 there was any discourtesy, Your Honour. I'm just
13 anxious to make sure that --
14 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Don't worry,
15 Mr. Greaves. But, Mr. Greaves, you have to answer a
16 particular question I put to you at the very beginning
17 of the cross-examination, and you haven't given me an
18 answer. Why did you ask the witness repeatedly a
19 certain number of questions? You told me that I had to
20 wait for the next set of questions. I've waited, and I
21 haven't understood your aim.
22 MR. GREAVES: You're entirely right, Your
23 Honour. I'm only concerned -- I have no objection to
24 the --
25 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) I never forget
1 the questions I put to Defence counsel, Mr. Greaves.
2 MR. GREAVES: I shall remember that, Your
3 Honour. I have no objection to the people on the
4 Prosecution side discussing the evidence with a witness
5 before he gives evidence, but I make it plain that I do
6 have an objection to them speaking to a witness after
7 he has taken the oath and before he has completed his
9 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Precisely.
10 This is a very crucial issue that you are raising,
11 Mr. Greaves, and the members of the Defence team should
12 think about it, just as much as members of the
13 Prosecution team, and we will have the opportunity to
14 go back on this particular issue, I'm sure. It is a
15 problematic issue. What should we allow the witnesses
16 to do outside the courtroom? This is something both
17 the Prosecution team and the Defence team should think
18 about. The Judges are not quite sure what the best
19 procedure should be. I'm not criticising the questions
20 you've put to the witness earlier on. I was just
21 trying to see what your aim was.
22 Thank you, Mr. Greaves, for your
23 explanation. You may now proceed. I will just take
24 this opportunity to hand to my colleagues the pictures
25 of the back side of the hangar, I think.
1 MR. GREAVES: Can I just add that the reason
2 I passed on immediately was because the witness said
3 that he'd spoken to nobody, and I accept that answer,
4 and I didn't think it, in connection with this witness,
5 of any further importance to raise the matter, and
6 that's why I moved on and forgot to answer Your
7 Honour's question. I will remember in future that I
8 have to answer.
9 Q. Witness B, I would like you just to have a
10 look at these two photographs, please.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibits 2 and 3, D2 and D3.
12 A. This is behind -- these are the railway
13 tracks behind the hangar, from behind. The photograph
14 was taken from the back.
15 MR. GREAVES:
16 Q. Yes. I'm not criticising you in any way,
17 Witness B, and I want you to be clear about that. I
18 just want to get it clear that we can see there what
19 looks like a door at the back of the building. Do you
20 accept that?
21 A. The door is closed. These doors were
22 locked. They were never opened.
23 Q. Right.
24 A. Those doors were never opened. They are
25 locked. I forgot to mention that.
1 Q. I'm not criticising you in any way. I just
2 wanted to make it absolutely clear that there were not
3 only doors at the front of the building but that there
4 were doors at the back, and you say that they were
5 closed at all times?
6 A. Yes, there were doors there, but they were
7 always locked, always. No one can go out through
8 them. They only went out through that one door. This
9 door was always locked, and there were heavy chains on
10 them and a big lock.
11 Q. All right. Thank you very much. We've
12 finished now with the photographs. They can go back to
13 the Registry, please.
14 You say that when you were first in the
15 hangar, that you could see because it was daylight
16 outside. Apart from the daylight that was lighting up
17 the inside of the hangar, was there any lighting of any
18 kind inside the hangar?
19 A. No, there wasn't. There was moonlight that
20 gave us light. That was all.
21 Q. Can I just clarify again, as far as your
22 arrival at Luka was concerned, was it 1.30 in the
23 afternoon or 1.30 in the middle of the night that you
25 A. In the afternoon.
1 Q. I'd like to move now to the time when you say
2 Mr. Jelisic came and introduced himself to you. Your
3 evidence yesterday was that his introduction was in the
4 following terms: "My name is Goran Jelisic, known as
5 Adolf. You will get to know me well. I am the boss
7 In relation to the first part of that
8 introduction, it's right, isn't it, that what you said
9 to the investigators was, "My name is Goran. They call
10 me Adolf."
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Thank you. I want to move on now to the -- I
13 hesitate to call it a joke because it's not a joke, but
14 the remark that was made about those whose names would
15 be read out were to be executed, but, in fact, they
16 were meant for release. Were there releases that took
17 place that day?
18 A. There were.
19 Q. In general terms, was that the only day on
20 which releases took place or were there other occasions
21 when releases took place?
22 A. There were other occasions, but on that day,
23 most people went home. There were another two or three
24 occasions when 10 to 20 people were released on each of
25 those occasions.
1 Q. I'd like you to help me with some numbers,
2 please, Witness B. Can you tell us, and I don't want
3 an exact figure, but roughly how many people were
4 detained with you at Luka on the first day that you
5 were there at the outset, and then I want to know about
6 how many were released?
7 A. Roughly, there were about 400 or 500 of us.
8 The hangar was full. We were standing very close to
9 one another. We were packed. There were too many of
10 us, in fact. More than half of the hangar was packed
11 full. We were standing right next to one another, so
12 there really were quite a number of us.
13 Q. Of the 400 or 500, I appreciate that's a very
14 rough figure, but of the 400 or 500 people who were
15 initially there, how many would you say were, in fact,
16 released that day?
17 A. I assume about 100, maybe a little more.
18 Anyway, quite a number were released because he carried
19 quite a large number of documents with him, so did the
20 guard, so quite a large number were released that day.
21 Within a two-hour period after having examined those
22 documents, these people were called out and they were
23 released. I can't give you the exact number, but many,
24 almost half, of the people in the hangar were released.
25 Q. Help me with this: You think there were some
1 two or three other days when releases took place, is
2 that accurate, or was it more or less?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. On those occasions, were similar numbers of
5 people released from the detention facility?
6 A. I know that Goran released them on that first
7 day. As for the other days when people were released,
8 between 10, 15, up to 30 men were released. On those
9 occasions, I didn't see Goran giving these pieces of
10 paper with signatures on them but, rather, the people
11 who interrogated us, they gave us release papers. I
12 too was interviewed, but I didn't have the good fortune
13 to be released, but I was kept on because they said,
14 "We don't have any more of these discharge papers.
15 You will be moved to another part of the hangar or
16 exchanged." In any event, there would be no more
17 discharges, but, rather, a work unit would be formed.
18 Anyway, for two or three days after that day,
19 quite a number of people were released, up to 30
20 perhaps every day, and they were sent home.
21 Q. Were all the people who were detained with
22 you Muslim or were there people from other ethnic
23 groups detained with you?
24 A. There were some Croats as well but very few.
25 Most of us were Muslims, and there were a few Croats.
1 Q. The people who were released, were they all
2 Muslim people?
3 A. I think, I can't be sure, but most of them
4 were certainly Muslims. I didn't know who was a
5 Muslim, who was a Croat, but it was mostly Muslims who
6 were released. I don't know whether any Croats went,
7 we didn't dare look, but mostly it was the Muslims who
8 were released. There were very few Croats anyway
10 Q. Thank you. Now, on that first occasion when
11 something like half the people were released, was that
12 Goran Jelisic, you say, who released them?
13 A. I know for the first day. I don't know for
14 the other days, whether it was Goran, because the
15 people who were interrogating us in the offices, they
16 were giving papers. Then they would come to the hangar
17 to say good-bye to us, saying "We're going home."
18 Q. Thank you. I would like just to move very
19 briefly to the death of the Zahirovic brothers about
20 which you told us yesterday.
21 A. Zahirovic, Zahirovic.
22 Q. I'm sorry. You have to understand that I'm
23 not a Bosnian speaker, and I do apologise if I
24 mispronounce the names. You will forgive me, I'm sure,
25 Witness B.
1 A. Oh, never mind, never mind.
2 Q. It's right, isn't it, that you personally did
3 not see the killing of those two men?
4 A. I did not.
5 Q. And what you know about it is what you have
6 been told by other people, other detainees?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you. I want to now move to another
9 topic, please, Witness B.
10 MR. GREAVES: If Your Honours will just give
11 me a moment, please.
12 Q. You've described to us how that evening, the
13 first evening that you were there, people would be
14 invited or asked to volunteer, and some three or four
15 people would go out of the hangar. You, yourself, were
16 not a member of such a group that night?
17 A. I was not.
18 Q. Again, in telling us about anything that may
19 have happened outside, you are dependent on the
20 accounts of other people as to what happened?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. I would like to move to, please, to the
23 killing of two men after you had cleaned -- I'm sorry,
24 let's just pause for a moment, please.
25 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Just a moment,
1 please. I wish to consult with my colleagues.
2 Mr. Greaves, the Judges, and I too, wish to
3 observe that there are facts which the accused has
4 pleaded guilty to, the murder of Huso and Smajil
5 Zahirovic was confessed to by the accused; he plead
6 guilty to it.
7 MR. GREAVES: I have not suggested anything
8 otherwise. Merely that he did not see the incident.
9 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) But after all,
10 you are introducing some evidence. I just wish to draw
11 your attention to the facts that have been admitted;
12 there is no point in insisting on them too much. That
13 is just an observation on the part of the Judges.
14 You may continue, Mr. Greaves.
15 MR. GREAVES: I think my learned friend
16 Mr. Londrovic has something to add.
17 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Yes, please?
18 MR. LONDROVIC: (Interpretation) Your
19 Honours, I do apologise. It is true that the accused
20 Jelisic has confessed regarding the Zahirovic brothers
21 but only to the killing of one of the two brothers and
22 not both of them, just one of the two brothers. So I
23 do apologise. And he has, in fact, been charged with
24 the killing of one of the brothers.
25 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Let me check
1 the indictment. Mr. Tochilovsky, which count is it?
2 Maybe I made a mistake; it's possible.
3 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: Can we have a couple of
4 moments just to check it?
5 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Yes.
6 MR. GREAVES: If Your Honour has the agreed
7 statement of facts, I think if you look at paragraph 11
8 of that -- I hope you've got a copy in French rather
9 than English -- you will see the terms in which the
10 agreement has been made.
11 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) I apologise.
12 I was looking at paragraph 22, Counts 16 and 17,
13 killing of Huso and Smajil Zahirovic. Maybe I'm wrong,
14 but under this count, mention is made of two brothers;
15 am I wrong?
16 MR. GREAVES: The document which I have,
17 which is the document that has been signed by counsel
18 for the accused and for the Prosecution, contains a
19 paragraph 11 which reads in the following way: "He
20 will plead guilty to Counts 20 and 21 and admit that on
21 about the 8th of May, 1992, he took two Muslim
22 brothers, Huso and Smajil Zahirovic, outside of the
23 main hangar at Luka camp and shot and killed one of
24 them." That, as I understand it, and I see my learned
25 friend Mr. Bowers is nodding in acknowledgement that
1 that is the agreement that has been reached, so I
2 conclude that that is a correct statement of the
4 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: That is exactly what the
5 witness testified about yesterday, that he took two
6 brothers and he heard the shot. So there are no
7 inconsistencies in that.
8 MR. GREAVES: And I make it clear that I'm
9 not trying to suggest in any way that there is any
10 inconsistency in what --
11 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) But what I am
12 troubled by, Mr. Prosecutor, is that when we had the
13 initial appearance on the amended indictment, when
14 paragraph 22 was read out, I had the impression that
15 the accused recognised his guilt. He used the same
16 wording. I don't have the transcript before me --
17 maybe I am mistaken. Do you make a distinction between
18 Counts 16 and 17 and 14 and 15?
19 The indictment was read by the registrar as
20 follows --
21 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: The difference between
22 Counts 16 and 17 and Counts 15 and 14, 14 and 15, the
23 difference is that in the first incident, Counts 14 and
24 15, neither the accused nor the witnesses were sure
25 which of the two victims were killed by Goran Jelisic.
1 So he pleaded guilty to killing one of those victims.
2 With regard to Counts 16 and 17, again, he is
3 charged with killing one of those brothers, and he
4 admitted to that, killing one of those brothers. So
5 there is no inconsistencies and no disagreements
6 between the Defence and the Prosecution on these
8 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) The difference
9 being that the title, the title of your counts, at
10 least in the French version, 16 and 17 say "killing of
11 Huso and Smajil Zahirovic." If that is the case, we
12 need to revise the text, at least the French text. I
13 don't know what the English text says. Let me look.
14 But in that case, it needs to be amended. Even in the
15 English version, it says "killing of Huso and Smajil
17 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: Your Honours, this
18 indictment is not only against Goran Jelisic but also
19 against another accused, and another accused
20 participated in that, so we couldn't change the caption
21 of the counts. That's what we were saying: Two
22 victims were killed and two indictees are in this
23 indictment. One of those victims was killed by the
24 accused; the accused pled guilty to that.
25 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Very well. In
1 that case, we are in agreement. Without knowing which
2 one was killed by the accused, we agree that the
3 accused admitted killing one of the two brothers, Huso
4 and Smajil Zahirovic, without being able to determine
5 today who was the victim of Goran Jelisic. So things
6 are clear now. Thank you.
7 You may continue, Mr. Greaves.
8 MR. GREAVES: Can I also point out that the
9 particulars of the count make it plain that the
10 allegation against him is "shot and killed one of
11 them," so his plea that he tendered to the Court was a
12 proper plea to the indictment on the basis which has
13 been agreed, and I see two of my learned friends nod in
14 agreement of my assessment of that position.
15 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) That's fine.
16 We have no further problems. Please continue.
17 MR. GREAVES:
18 Q. Witness B, I'm sorry, I was going to ask you
19 now, please, about the incident in which you saw the
20 killing of two men after you had cleaned an office, and
21 I'm sorry to have to go over a little bit of the
22 details of that again.
23 Would it be right to say that in the terms of
24 your life, that was the most shocking thing that's ever
25 happened to you?
1 A. Yes. It was the first time for me to witness
2 a killing.
3 Q. Would it be right to say that both during and
4 after the incident, you were in a very confused and
5 shocked state?
6 A. Of course, I was. How couldn't I have been
7 when I saw two young men being killed half a metre
8 away? I stood there, I was immobile, I was wet from
9 perspiration. I couldn't believe my own eyes, seeing
10 one man kill another. I saw this with my own eyes; it
11 is the truth. I am telling you what I saw.
12 Q. Let me make it plain to you, Witness B, that
13 I'm not for a moment suggesting that you are in any way
14 being other than truthful about that incident, and also
15 that I do not in any way criticise you for being
16 confused and shocked at such an incident. I don't want
17 you to think that I'm making light of it in any way.
18 Do you understand that?
19 A. I do. Please speak freely. I am here to
20 tell the truth.
21 Q. Would it be right to say that during the
22 incident that you described to us, that you were
23 focused on the fact of killing that was taking place in
24 front of your eyes?
25 A. I don't know how to answer that question.
1 Could you repeat it, please?
2 Q. Yes. That there were two men whose lives
3 were being put at an end, and just help us about that
4 which you were focusing your attention on. Was it the
5 two men who were there on the ground being killed? Was
6 that what you were looking at in particular?
7 A. They weren't lying on the ground. At first I
8 was cleaning the office. There was my jacket on the
9 traffic sign, and the traffic sign was next to the
10 grate. I went up to it; I cleaned it well. I heard
11 Goran's voice. I cleaned the office. I was going
12 towards the traffic sign on which my jacket was
13 hanging. Goran entered the hangar leading the young
14 man, a young man, and he was going towards the grate
15 where my jacket was. I went out to fetch my jacket,
16 and I was struck dumb. This was the first time I saw
17 anything like that.
18 They reached the grate. He ordered the young
19 man to kneel down, which he did, to put his head on the
20 kerb, the grate was right next to the kerb, and I was
21 standing there. I was about to pick up my jacket with
22 my left hand, but I stopped dead, and the young man did
23 whatever he was ordered to do. He put his forehead on
24 the kerb, and he took out his pistol and shot him in
25 the back of the head. The man went limp. He called
1 for three volunteers, who had to come out of the
2 hangar, and I watched all this, and these volunteers
3 carried the dead man behind the shed where they would
4 throw the bodies.
5 While these volunteers were carrying the man,
6 he went back to the hangar for another fair, blond man
7 with a broken nose. He told me, "Stay there." And I
8 did. And he told this other man too to kneel down.
9 The young man did so. He told him to put his head, to
10 lean his head against the kerb. The young man didn't
11 want to do that. Again, he shouted at him, "Put your
12 head there," and then he got hold of him with his
13 jacket, got hold of his jacket, and pushed his head
14 down saying, "Don't move." The poor thing had to do
15 that, and he killed this second young man. And again
16 he called for three volunteers, and they went out and
17 carried him. And then he said to me, "What are you
18 doing there?" I couldn't speak. I had a choking
19 feeling in my throat. I was trembling. I was wet with
20 perspiration to see two young men being killed. And so
21 with my head and my hands, I was indicating that I was
22 cleaning the office. And went to see. I had cleaned
23 it well. He said, "You have cleaned it well. You
24 won't be killed." And he said, "Why are you so
25 scared?" Of course, I had to be scared. If I had a
1 voice to speak with, I would have told him. And he
2 said to me, "Since you have done the job well, you
3 won't be killed. Go into the hangar."
4 Q. Witness B, I don't doubt the details except
5 in one regard, and I want to ask you about that now.
6 What I want to suggest to you is that in the confusion
7 and shock of this incident, you made a mistake about
8 who it was who was carrying out the killing and that,
9 in fact, it was not the accused Goran Jelisic who did
11 A. It was Goran Jelisic. In the second case
12 too. I saw it with my own eyes. I have him in my
13 mind. It couldn't be anyone else but Goran, unless I
14 had gone crazy.
15 Q. Well, Witness B, just so that it's plain --
16 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) What was the
17 name of this victim, please? I wish to check --
18 MR. GREAVES: There's been no evidence as to
19 what the name of this person was.
20 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: We don't have the name of
21 the victim in the indictment.
22 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Very well.
23 Please continue. Proceed, Mr. Greaves.
24 MR. GREAVES:
25 Q. Just to conclude, I make it plain what the
1 case for the Defendant is on this point, is that you
2 have made a mistake as to the name of the perpetrator
3 of this crime.
4 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Are we outside
5 the indictment, Mr. Prosecutor?
6 Yes, Mr. Prosecutor?
7 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: Mr. President, in our
8 indictment in Count 1, it reads that in addition to
9 those killings enumerated in all these counts, he
10 killed other people, other detainees, other victims,
11 which are not named in those counts. It is in our
12 Count 1. So it is within the indictment.
13 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Thank you. So
14 we are within the scope of the indictment.
15 What is the detail over which you wish to
16 question this victim, please? Are you trying to
17 contest his version of events?
18 MR. GREAVES: I contest it only in respect of
19 one thing, which is as to who it was who committed
20 these killings. I don't contest any other matter, and
21 I make it plain both to Your Honour and to the witness
22 that I am not calling him a liar, I am merely saying
23 that he is mistaken, and that the reason for his being
24 mistaken is his condition as a result of what he had
1 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Very well.
2 Your observation is a pertinent one, Mr. Greaves.
3 MR. GREAVES: I am now going to refer, Your
4 Honour, if you have got the document which is the
5 agreed basis of plea in front of you, I am now going to
6 refer to paragraph 14 of that, and I think Your Honours
7 will find it on page 5 of the English version. I'm not
8 sure of the French version.
9 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Which
10 paragraph, Mr. Greaves?
11 MR. GREAVES: Paragraph 14.
12 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Mr. Greaves, I
13 don't have this document at the moment. At any rate,
14 we are going to take a 15-minute break. This will give
15 me the opportunity to find this document, and I don't
16 wish to go any further on this issue. I will only
17 enter this debate once I have the French version of
18 this basis of plea in French.
19 We are going to take a break. As I was
20 saying, a 15-minute break. This will give the
21 registrar the opportunity to hand me the French version
22 of this basis of plea, and then you can proceed,
23 Mr. Greaves, with your cross-examination.
24 --- Recess taken at 3.41 p.m.
25 --- On resuming at 4.04 p.m.
1 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) The hearing is
2 resumed. Can the accused be brought in, please?
3 (The accused entered court)
4 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Mr. Greaves,
5 thanks to the Registrar's efforts, the Judges now have
6 the French version of the agreed basis of plea. You
7 were referring us to paragraph 14; is that right?
8 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, paragraph 14.
9 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) The murder of
10 Stipo Glavocevic; is that right, Mr. Greaves.
11 MR. GREAVES: That's the one I'm referring to
12 the witness.
13 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Thank you very
15 MR. GREAVES:
16 Q. Witness B, I want to turn now to the incident
17 in which a man returned to the hangar with an ear which
18 had been cut off, and I think you will recall having
19 told us about that incident yesterday.
20 A. (Nodding)
21 Q. Can I just remind you of this: The court
22 reporters can't write down just a nod. It will be
23 helpful if you say "Yes" or "No" to each question. Can
24 you remember to do that, please, Witness B?
25 A. I said "Yes."
1 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) The court
2 reporters are extremely efficient, Mr. Greaves, and
3 they specify when the witness nods or makes a gesture,
4 but it is preferable, of course, for the witness to
5 speak out loud when answering your questions.
6 Witness B, please try to make an effort and
7 speak out.
8 MR. GREAVES:
9 Q. The man whom you told us about, do you know
10 his name?
11 A. I did not know.
12 Q. Did you subsequently learn it?
13 A. I later learned it.
14 Q. Would you agree with me that the name of that
15 man was Stipo or Stjepo Glavocevic?
16 A. Stipo, even though I did not know this man at
18 Q. But that was the name that you subsequently
20 A. Yes, from those who knew him.
21 Q. Witness B, you described how, during the
22 course of the incident, Mr. Jelisic said, "You are not
23 people. You are nothing. You should all be killed."
24 It's right, isn't it, that --
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. -- it's right, isn't it, that you told the
2 investigators that what he said was, "You are not men.
3 You are afraid to kill him. I should kill you all."
4 Do you accept that?
5 A. Yes, he said that. He was giving us a pistol
6 to kill him but we didn't dare.
7 Q. And what I want to go on to ask you is this:
8 That after Goran had said that, the man Stipo said,
9 "Brothers, friends, please kill me. I prefer you to
10 kill me than these criminals," and that's what you told
11 the investigators?
12 A. Yes, that's how I said it. He begged us. He
13 said, "Brothers, Muslims, or if there are any Croats
14 here, I prefer that any of you kill me than this
15 criminal," and then Goran offered each one of us his
16 pistol to kill him, and then he said, "What kind of
17 people are you? You can't kill your own even."
18 Q. Witness B, I want to turn now to the killing
19 of the man called Ismail Rebic and the Serb who were
20 together. Again, in the case of that incident, it's
21 right, isn't it, that you, yourself, did not witness
22 the killing of either of those two men?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And again in relation to those matters, the
25 killing of either of those two men, you rely on what
1 others have told you?
2 A. Yes, those who carried out those bodies.
3 Q. Do you accept that you told investigators in
4 relation to that matter that someone killed them,
5 implying that you did not know who it was who had done
7 A. I did not see with my own eyes, but they were
8 killed and they were taken out.
9 Q. So you don't know who did it?
10 A. I don't know. I did not see it with my own
11 eyes, but they were killed and they were carried out.
12 I washed the blood away.
13 Q. Thank you, Witness B. I want now to explore
14 with you, if we may, please, the time scale within
15 which all the incidents which you have told us about
16 happened. Would you accept that, having arrived on the
17 8th of May at Luka detention camp, all the incidents of
18 killing and mistreatment which you saw took place
19 within -- about which you've told us yesterday, all
20 those incidents took place within ten days of your
21 arrival. Would you accept that?
22 A. That is correct.
23 Q. I want to turn now to the incident when a
24 captain came to the camp and some orders were read out
25 to you. You will recall telling us that someone you
1 described as a captain came to the camp, and Jelisic
2 read out some orders to you. Do you remember that?
3 A. I remember that well.
4 Q. May I assume that you are of an age where you
5 would have done your national service in the former JNA
6 some years before the war?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. I'm not sure that I'm familiar with the
9 length of service. How long do you have to do -- how
10 long does national service take out of your life? Is
11 it 18 months, two years?
12 A. Eighteen months, that is what I served.
13 Q. Were you in a regular infantry unit or what
14 sort of unit were you in?
15 A. I don't need to say that. I was a soldier.
16 That's what's important.
17 Q. I simply want to just know how you're able to
18 recognise the different uniforms of the JNA. That's
19 all I'm after. I'm not after any personal details,
20 Witness B. I just want to know how you knew it was a
22 Let's put it this way: You're familiar with
23 all the uniforms and the ranks of the army; is that
25 A. For me, he was a military officer, and I
1 believe he had three stars, so that would make him a
2 captain, but in any event, he was an officer.
3 Q. Can you give us any better description of the
4 man, the captain, what sort of age he was, his
5 appearance, his size?
6 A. He was dark. He may have been about 180
7 centimetres tall, and I don't know what else. He was
8 good looking.
9 Q. What sort of age was he, young, old, compared
10 with yourself?
11 A. He wasn't young; he wasn't old. He was 35 to
12 40 maybe. But at any rate, he was not young or old.
13 He was in the middle.
14 Q. The uniform -- I'm sorry. I didn't let you
15 finish and I apologise. The uniform he was wearing,
16 Witness B, was that a formal uniform or a combat
18 A. No, it was not a combat uniform. It was a
19 regular officer's uniform.
20 Q. Did he speak to the assembled people?
21 A. No, he did not.
22 Q. Is this correct, that he was there
23 supervising the reading out of the orders by
24 Mr. Jelisic?
25 A. I know that he was there with Goran. He
1 stood there. Goran read it out. We listened. He read
2 it out. We didn't know whether to believe it or not,
3 but it turned out to be true, what Goran read. No
4 person was killed in Luka by gunshot after that. There
5 were some people later on who succumbed to beatings,
6 but there was not a single person who was killed by a
7 bullet after that.
8 Q. What time of day was the visit of this
9 captain and the reading out of these orders?
10 A. This was in the morning, around 8.00, I
11 couldn't tell you exactly, but around that time.
12 Q. Had you ever seen the captain before?
13 A. No, I had not.
14 Q. Did you ever see him again?
15 A. No, no, after he left, I never saw him again,
17 Q. Were he and Mr. Jelisic already there when
18 you were assembled or did they come in or what? Can
19 you just describe how they arrived to come and give
20 this information to you?
21 A. Yes, of course. Jelisic entered, and he
22 walked in with him on his right. We lined up. Jelisic
23 read it out, and the officer just stood there
24 observing. When Jelisic finished reading, they both
25 turned about and left the hangar. He said nothing. He
1 just observed.
2 Q. Did the captain give Mr. Jelisic the document
3 to read out to you? Did you see him do that?
4 A. No, Goran had it in his hand. It was in
5 Goran's hands.
6 Q. Can you just help us with this: Other
7 members of the staff of the detention facility, did you
8 have an opportunity to see them on a regular basis?
9 A. What staff?
10 Q. By "staff," I mean guards and the personnel
11 who were in charge of the camp, apart from
12 Mr. Jelisic.
13 A. It was just Goran and this officer who
14 entered the hangar. The guards were outside. I only
15 saw the two of them, and Goran read out from this
16 paper, and they left. The officer never spoke.
17 Q. I'm sorry, Witness B, it's my fault entirely,
18 and I do apologise. I did not ask that question well.
19 I'm going to ask it again. In general terms, apart
20 from Mr. Jelisic, when you were in the camp, did you
21 see other personnel who were part of the camp staff --
22 A. No, I did not.
23 Q. -- on days other than this or did you only
24 see Mr. Jelisic?
25 A. Mr. Jelisic was there.
1 Q. Were there other guards, apart from
2 Mr. Jelisic, not on this particular day but in general,
3 in the camp?
4 A. There were guards, of course. When Jelisic
5 was not around, there were guards around --
6 Q. From what --
7 A. -- and the warden was there.
8 Q. From what you were able to see, was the
9 captain part of the staff of the camp or had he come
10 from somewhere else?
11 A. He was not.
12 Q. He wasn't part of the staff?
13 A. No, he wasn't. I saw him for the first time,
14 and after he left, I never saw that man again.
15 Q. Can you help us to try and fix the date on
16 which this incident took place, when the captain came?
17 Again, would that be within ten days of your arrival at
18 the camp?
19 A. That is correct.
20 Q. If you were able to fix it more precisely
21 than that, what date would you say it was, the 17th,
22 18th of May?
23 A. I believe so because I was there on the 18th,
24 and it wasn't late. I know it was in May. It must
25 have been either the 17th or the 18th, one of those two
2 Q. I want to turn very briefly now to the time
3 when you were in the camp at Batkovic, Witness B. You
4 told the Court yesterday that at some date in September
5 you saw Mr. Jelisic at Batkovic camp. What I want to
6 suggest to you is that you're mistaken about having
7 seen Mr. Jelisic at Batkovic camp.
8 A. I am not mistaken. I saw him. I was lying
9 down, and I saw him when he came to hangar 2. He was
10 first in hangar 1 looking for people from Brcko who had
11 been there in May at Luka. I was not in that hangar.
12 Then he moved to hangar 2 where I was, and we were
13 there. We heard that he had been down there, and then
14 he entered the hangar and asked whether there were any
15 people from Brcko who were in the camp in May. The
16 guards said that there were none, that all had been
17 exchanged, and he said, "It is not possible that there
18 are none left," and they repeated, "Yes, they were all
20 We kept on lying on the ground. Goran was
21 well-known. I recognised him by his voice. He was
22 looking for the people from Brcko, and he was asking,
23 "How come there are none from Brcko," and the guards
24 said, "No, all of those who were at Luka had been
25 exchanged," and then he left.
1 Q. Do you accept, Witness B, that you didn't
2 mention the visit of Mr. Jelisic to the Batkovic camp
3 to the investigators in this case?
4 A. The question is not clear to me. What do you
6 Q. What I'm suggesting to you is that you didn't
7 tell the investigators about that incident and that
8 it's not recorded by them.
9 A. I --
10 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Just a
11 second. I need to consult with my colleagues,
12 Mr. Greaves.
13 Mr. Greaves, we are somewhat concerned. It's
14 not the first time you've gone over what has been or
15 what has not been said to the investigators of the
16 Office of the Prosecutor. Remember that what is most
17 important for the Judges is to have elements which
18 enable them to establish the truth.
19 Yesterday before us, the witness stated that
20 Goran Jelisic, the accused, came to the Batkovic camp.
21 He just explained to you what has happened. You are
22 allowed to contradict this particular point, but we
23 have already gone over this point a number of times.
24 It is a very important issue, but it's not the key
25 issue in this case.
1 Would you please try to put your question to
2 the witness in another way? If you want to contest his
3 answer, please tell us why and try to explain.
4 The other thing we would like to specify is
5 that we would like this cross-examination to be over
6 quickly because remember that we are not sitting
7 tomorrow or Friday, and we wouldn't like this witness
8 to have to come back in January. Do remember that the
9 Judges will have some questions to put to the witness.
10 It is now 4.25; we will work until 6.30, more or less.
11 We have two hours left. We will need to take another
12 20-minute break at some point. This leaves us with one
13 hour and 40 minutes. So that's not that much time.
14 Don't worry so much about what has been said
15 by the witness to the investigators. Please focus on
16 how you would like to explain the fact that you think
17 that the witness is not saying precisely what happened.
18 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, his answer has
19 been that he doesn't accept my proposition. I'm going
20 to move on.
21 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Excellent.
22 The Judges will decide on that particular issue at the
23 relevant time.
24 MR. GREAVES: And if I can reassure Your
25 Honour, I am anticipating finishing well within the
1 time that you specified.
2 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Excellent.
3 Thank you, Mr. Greaves. My colleagues and myself thank
5 MR. GREAVES:
6 Q. Witness B, I would like to move now, please,
7 to the interrogation that was conducted with you. Was
8 it only on one occasion that you were interrogated?
9 A. Twice.
10 Q. Perhaps you can help us about the time
11 scale. Were you interrogated immediately upon arrival
12 or within a short space of time after your arrival?
13 A. Within two days.
14 Q. And --
15 A. It must have been the 10th or 11th.
16 Q. I'm sorry, I apologise. I interrupted you.
17 Whereabouts in the camp were you interrogated?
18 A. In the office across from where we were kept.
19 Q. On that occasion, how long did the
20 interrogation last for?
21 A. The first time, it lasted about 15 minutes;
22 and the second time, it was similar. I was saying why
23 we had stayed behind, whether we had weapons. That's
24 how it was.
25 Q. Can I just take each one at a time? Who was
1 it who conducted the first interrogation? Was it one
2 person alone or more than one person?
3 A. There were three persons. I knew one of them
4 but not the other two.
5 Q. Who was the person whom you knew?
6 A. I can't say the name right now because it has
7 been six or seven years now.
8 Q. All right.
9 A. It's in the statement.
10 Q. It may be that it doesn't matter, but how had
11 you known the person? Was he someone you had come
12 across in your business, or how had you known him?
13 A. He was from Brcko. He was from Brcko.
14 Q. Was he a member of the military or a police
15 officer or what was he?
16 A. I don't know. He wore civilian clothes. He
17 did not wear a military uniform; just civilian clothes.
18 Q. What about the other two; were they in
19 uniform of any kind or were they also civilians?
20 A. All three wore civilian clothes.
21 Q. You very briefly touched on the sort of
22 questions that you were asked. Would it be right that
23 you were asked if you were a member of the SDA, for
25 A. Yes, we were asked, and I told him that I was
1 not, since I was not. I was in SDP. I told them like
2 it was.
3 Q. I'm not suggesting otherwise. I just want to
4 know what the nature of the questions was.
5 Can I just move back slightly? Can I perhaps
6 refresh your memory with the name Dragica; would that
7 be the name that you recall?
8 A. Dragica, yes.
9 Q. Dragica. Thank you. Were some of the
10 questions also as to whether you had been a member of
11 any military unit such as the Green Berets or a
12 resistance unit of some kind?
13 A. I was not asked that. Dragica just asked me,
14 "How come you stayed behind at home? Do you have
15 weapons?" And I told him that I did not because I did
17 Q. So they were interested in what your
18 activities had been before the war and what activities
19 you may have been involved in --
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. -- but your answer was that you hadn't been
22 involved in anything of that sort?
23 A. In nothing of any kind.
24 Q. Can I now ask you about the second
25 interrogation? Can you fix a date for that? How soon
1 after the first one was it?
2 A. The first one was, I think, on the second
3 day, and Kole was the interrogator. I know him by the
4 name of Kole. He interrogated me like Dragica did, why
5 we had stayed behind, whether we had weapons. I said
6 we didn't. I said we had stayed because I didn't
7 believe there would be a war. I stayed in my home to
8 save what little I had because I thought it would be
9 over quickly, like in Bijeljina. I had no weapons. I
10 never had any weapons nor did it ever occur to me to
11 obtain any.
12 And this Kole offered me fruit juice. I had
13 it. I was telling them the truth. I told them why I
14 had stayed. I didn't believe there would be a war. I
15 sent my wife and children to the village and I stayed
16 at home. And he said to me, this Kole, that there were
17 no more discharge papers and that I would be going to
18 the other part of the hangar where we would wait to be
19 exchanged and to work in a work unit, that's all.
20 Q. I was asking if you can give us an
21 approximate date how soon after the first interrogation
22 did the second one take place?
23 A. I think it was the 12th or the 13th because
24 there were two interrogations on two consecutive days,
25 one after the other.
1 Q. Was this man Kole, was he alone on that
2 occasion or were there other people with him?
3 A. He was the director at the time, and there
4 were some others there, but I don't know any of them.
5 They were sitting with him and questioning. They were
6 very good to us. They asked us to tell the truth, and
7 that is what I did. I told them the truth.
8 Q. And when you say there were others, how many
9 others were sitting there with him?
10 A. Two or three men, soldiers, but they didn't
11 interfere in the questioning. They just sat there.
12 Q. Thank you. I want to turn now, please,
13 Witness B, if I may, to the last occasion when you saw
14 Mr. Jelisic in Luka detention camp. Is this correct,
15 that whilst you were at the camp, he was replaced by a
16 man called Vojkan?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And Vojkan himself was replaced within about
19 two or three days by another person called Kosta?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. It may be that you don't know the answer to
22 this question, but if you do, please help us: Are you
23 able to say who it was who caused, first of all,
24 Mr. Jelisic to be replaced?
25 A. I don't know.
1 Q. Was there any talk in the camp amongst the
2 prisoners about how he had come to be replaced?
3 A. We knew, when Vojkan came in, he was a good
4 young man, a good-looking one. I would like to kiss
5 that man. He consoled us and he was the best, but he
6 wasn't there with us for long. He was replaced
7 immediately because they saw that he was always with us
8 in the hangar. He encouraged us. He said he had spent
9 his whole life with Muslims. He was a very good young
10 man. I would love to see that Vojkan again because he
11 was a father and a mother to us. When he entered, we
12 would all gather round him like children and he would
13 encourage us, try to keep our spirits up, this Vojkan,
14 and because he was so good with us, they replaced him.
15 Q. When you say "they," who do you mean by
16 "they" and how do you know --
17 A. Major Vojkan. I know the man. I watched
18 him. He was always with us, this Vojkan.
19 Q. Vojkan was a military officer, was he?
20 A. I don't know, but I know that they called him
21 Major Vojkan, and the most important thing for me is
22 that he was a good man.
23 Q. You told us just a moment or two ago that
24 "they" replaced him. Who do you mean by "they"?
25 A. I don't know. I don't know who replaced
1 him. We were in the hangar. And what was happening, I
2 don't know. I can't tell you who replaced him when I
3 don't know.
4 Q. Was there any conversation amongst your
5 fellow detainees about that issue, as to how he had
6 come to be replaced?
7 A. I don't know. How could we know? All that
8 we know is when somebody comes in and introduces
9 himself and says, "I am so and so. As of today, you
10 have to do as I tell you" because they changed.
11 Q. Would you accept that the departure of
12 Mr. Jelisic from Luka detention camp was at about the
13 same time as or shortly after the captain had been
14 there and orders were given not to kill anybody
15 anymore? Would that be right?
16 A. I don't know. Goran would come again, but
17 there was no more killing with bullets. He would come
18 to the hangar.
19 Q. Thank you. Can I just ask you this finally,
20 please: During the time that you were at Luka
21 detention facility, is this right, that as far as you
22 know, he was not always in the camp; in other words, he
23 didn't stay there permanently, there were times when he
24 was out of the camp? If you don't know the answer to
25 that, just say that you don't know.
1 A. Are you asking me about Goran?
2 Q. Yes. Yes, Witness B.
3 A. He wasn't there all the time. He would go
4 into town. He would come by. That's all I know.
5 Q. Finally, Witness B, I want to ask you about
6 three particular individuals. First of all, a man
7 called Ivan, who had a ponytail. Did you know such a
8 person in the camp as a member of the personnel?
9 A. He had a ponytail. I didn't know his name
10 was Ivan. We called him Cupo. He had long hair tied
11 up at the back. So it is for the first time now that I
12 hear that name.
13 Q. It may be that I've got the name wrong, but
14 certainly there was somebody with a ponytail called
15 Cupo; that's what you're telling us?
16 A. Yes, yes.
17 Q. What was his role in the camp? Was he a
18 guard, an officer, or what?
19 A. I can't tell you. He wasn't there all the
20 time in Luka, but he would come in. He was terrible.
21 He appeared to have a slight limp. He went around
22 arrogantly and he would beat some of the prisoners.
23 Q. I don't want you to go into the detail of
24 what this particular man did, I just simply want to
25 establish that he was there and that he took part in
1 some of the mistreatment of prisoners. All right,
2 Witness B?
3 Can I ask you now about another man called
4 Miroslav? Was there a guard or member of the personnel
5 called Miroslav that you were aware of?
6 A. I don't remember that name at all.
7 Q. All right. And the third one I want to ask
8 you about was a man called Sok. Do you remember him?
9 A. Sok?
10 Q. And I think possibly his first name may have
11 been Enver.
12 A. Yes, I know.
13 Q. What was his position, as far as you could
15 A. He wasn't like Cupo. He also beat people in
16 the hangar. I was surprised to learn that his name was
17 Enver because that is a Muslim name, so I assumed, I
18 don't know what, but I was surprised to learn that his
19 name was Enver because he also beat people in the camp.
20 MR. GREAVES: If Your Honours could give me a
21 moment, please?
22 Your Honour, those are all the questions that
23 I have. Can I thank Witness B and wish him a safe
24 journey home.
25 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Thank you,
1 Mr. Greaves.
2 I should now like to turn to the Prosecutor.
3 Mr. Tochilovsky, would you like to exercise your right
4 to re-examine the witness?
5 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: No, the Prosecution doesn't
6 have any further questions for the witness.
7 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Thank you. In
8 that case, I turn to my colleagues.
9 Judge Riad, do you have any questions for the
11 JUDGE RIAD: (Interpretation) Yes,
12 Mr. President. Thank you.
13 Good afternoon, Witness B. Can you hear me?
14 A. Yes.
15 JUDGE RIAD: (Interpretation) I have several
16 questions for you but global ones. You have stated
17 that Mr. Jelisic considered himself to be the most
18 powerful person in the world, at least in Brcko this
19 was evident.
20 A. Yes.
21 JUDGE RIAD: (Interpretation) Do you agree
22 with that?
23 A. Yes, I do. In Brcko, in Luka.
24 JUDGE RIAD: (Interpretation) Very well. So
25 the others obeyed him?
1 A. Everybody had to obey him.
2 JUDGE RIAD: (Interpretation) And during the
3 cross-examination, you expressed some reserve with
4 regard some of the killings. You said that you learnt
5 from others, those who carried the bodies, that it was
6 Jelisic who did the killing, but you yourself didn't
7 see that. And these others -- and according to the
8 doubt expressed by the Defence counsel that it may not
9 have been Jelisic, those who killed -- could they have
10 been Jelisic's subordinates or people coming from
11 outside? Could it have been under his orders or under
12 somebody else's orders, against Jelisic's will, shall
13 we say, or other colleagues' of his?
14 A. I don't know. Whoever carried that body -- I
15 carried four bodies and I saw Goran four times, and
16 whoever carried bodies said that it had been Goran,
17 that he was there by the body. Nobody saw anybody else
18 doing the killings.
19 JUDGE RIAD: (Interpretation) Did he have any
20 people to assist him and who he gave orders to?
21 A. I don't know that.
22 JUDGE RIAD: (Interpretation) You also said
23 during the cross-examination that you heard the voice
24 of Jelisic, if I recall well, when he was giving orders
25 to somebody to prepare their pistols.
1 A. I didn't hear that. He didn't give any
2 orders. Before he killed this Stipo, he did ask us to
3 kill Stipo, but we didn't dare. But whether he gave
4 orders to anyone else, I don't know. I don't know
5 whether he ordered anybody to kill.
6 JUDGE RIAD: [No interpretation provided]
7 A. I don't know how to put it. I think that he
8 didn't force any one of his own to kill because he was
9 the most powerful there. Even his own were afraid of
11 JUDGE RIAD: (Interpretation) I come back to
12 my initial question: So he was the absolute master in
13 that place?
14 A. Yes.
15 JUDGE RIAD: (Interpretation) You also said
16 that Jelisic claimed that he had killed a certain
17 number of victims, I think it was you who said 76 or
18 86, but that wasn't the figure that he wanted to
19 accomplish. However, he came with that Serbian officer
20 to read the order to stop the killings. This order,
21 did it come from him, do you think, or was it imposed
22 upon him contrary to his own will?
23 A. I don't know that. I don't know.
24 JUDGE RIAD: (Interpretation) This Serb
25 officer, was he a Serb, according to you?
1 A. I don't know. But anyway, he was wearing an
2 officer's uniform. He probably was, but I don't know.
3 I don't know his name.
4 JUDGE RIAD: (Interpretation) Yes. But he
5 seemed to have some authority over Jelisic.
6 A. I can't tell you.
7 JUDGE RIAD: (Interpretation) You also said
8 that Jelisic left shortly after this order, that he
9 left the Luka camp; therefore, his mission was
10 terminated, or was he sent away? What did it seem to
11 you to be?
12 A. When he read this order, he left the
13 hangar -- of course, he was seen around town -- he
14 would come back to the hangar but he wouldn't kill
15 anyone. He would drop in because Kole was the director
16 after that. But anyway, there were no more killings.
17 He would come and go. He would walk around. He would
18 come to Luka. But ever since the date the order was
19 read, he didn't do any killing in Luka. I don't know
20 what happened anywhere else because I didn't see it.
21 But I was talking about Luka.
22 JUDGE RIAD: (Interpretation) And my last
23 question: You said there were between 400 and 500
24 detainees in the hangar and that about 100 were
25 released. What happened to the remaining 300 or 400;
1 do you have any idea whether they disappeared or
2 whether they were found alive or what happened to them?
3 A. Those who remained alive were alive, but some
4 people did go missing, of course. I don't know where
5 they went to, but they disappeared. In any case, they
6 didn't come back to the hangar. They left the hangar.
7 They were taken away and they didn't come back.
8 JUDGE RIAD: (Interpretation) I'm talking
9 about those who were released and others who were taken
10 out, or was there a difference between them, or perhaps
11 you don't know who was released and those who went
13 A. Those who were released home went home and
14 then they would take out groups of 20 or 30 men who
15 were also released, but later on, those men were
16 brought back into the hangar, some of them who had been
18 JUDGE RIAD: (Interpretation) Thank you.
19 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Thank you,
20 Judge Riad. Judge Rodrigues, you have the floor.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: (Interpretation) Thank you,
22 Mr. President. I have at least three questions.
23 Witness, I shall follow on to the question
24 put to you by my colleague, Judge Riad, to ask you how
25 did you know that the people were released?
1 A. I saw them being called out by name and given
2 these discharge papers to go home. I begged God that I
3 be among the lucky ones to be sent home. People came
4 with these certificates allowing them to go home.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: (Interpretation) After your
6 release from the camp, did you find the people who were
7 released before, before you?
8 A. When I left the camp, I came across a person
9 who was with me in the camp. I stayed with him in his
10 home because I didn't dare stay in my own because there
11 was a frontline in my street. So we stayed there for
12 about 20 days, we stayed in these houses. The army
13 came; two soldiers came. They took us out. It was
14 morning. We entered a bus, and we were taken to
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: (Interpretation) You used,
17 as a reference number to calculate the number of
18 detainees in the camp, a box into which you threw your
19 personal documents; do you remember that? There was a
21 A. Yes, I remember.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: (Interpretation) Could you
23 roughly tell us the size of that box?
24 A. It was maybe half a metre by a half a metre
25 and it was about 30 centimetres deep and it was full as
1 we threw our documents into it.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: (Interpretation) I don't
3 know whether I understood you well. You put your
4 identity card to the side because the box was already
6 A. Yes, it was full, the box was full.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: (Interpretation) Therefore,
8 out of this number and among all these detainees, you
9 said that the majority were Muslim but there were also
10 a few Croats; is that true?
11 A. Yes, correct, but the majority were Muslims,
12 by far the greatest number were Muslim. There were few
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: (Interpretation) Were there
15 any Serbs?
16 A. I don't know. I don't know. I can't say.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: (Interpretation) And when
18 some detainees were released, were the Croats released
19 or did they stay behind as well?
20 A. They read out the names of people from their
21 ID cards. I didn't remember whether there were any
22 Croats, but I do believe that some did go, that a large
23 number of them were released. But by far, most of the
24 detainees were Muslims; there were very few Croats.
25 The Muslims were the largest group.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: (Interpretation) So you
2 know when somebody is a Croat or not when you hear the
3 name; is that so? Is it by the names that you knew
4 whether a person was a Muslim or a Croat?
5 A. Yes, of course I would know.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: (Interpretation) Thank
7 you. I have no further questions. Thank you,
8 Mr. President.
9 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Judge Riad has
10 another question for you.
11 JUDGE RIAD: (Interpretation) Witness, how
12 can you distinguish between those who left to be free,
13 to be released, and those who were taken out to be
14 executed when you were asked to get out of the hangar?
15 How could you tell the difference?
16 A. There were people whose names were read out,
17 and they were told that they would be given these
18 papers, discharge papers, and they did receive those
19 papers, and the people who were called out to come out
20 of the hangar did not return. They never came back to
21 the hangar, so I don't know where they went.
22 JUDGE RIAD: (Interpretation) Neither of them
23 came back to the hangar so how could you know who
24 survived and who was killed?
25 A. On that day, the people whose names were
1 called out did not come back. They left. They went
2 home. After a few days, I saw some of them come back
3 because they said that they had been released and then
4 captured again in their homes and brought back.
5 JUDGE RIAD: (Interpretation) But the number
6 of those killed, you said 76 or 86, was that the number
7 that Jelisic himself mentioned? It wasn't you who
8 counted these victims. You said yourself that he
9 declared that he had killed between 76 and 86 people,
10 but that was not his ultimate target.
11 A. Yes.
12 JUDGE RIAD: (Interpretation) Did he invent
13 this number?
14 A. I don't know. I simply heard him say that.
15 I don't know what the target figure he had in mind
16 was. We just listened to what he was saying. We
17 didn't dare say anything. We just had to watch and
19 JUDGE RIAD: (Interpretation) Thank you.
20 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Thank you,
21 Witness B. You have suffered a great many things. I
22 won't have any questions for you. You have been asked
23 many questions. The Judges hope that you will have a
24 safe journey home, that you will be able to restore
25 some tranquillity to your life.
1 Thank you once again for coming to testify in
2 this Tribunal, and rest assured that all protective
3 measures have been taken so that you shouldn't have any
4 consequences from the fact of having the courage to
5 come here.
6 Stay seated for awhile while the Judges leave
7 for the courtroom, and we will now have a 20-minute
9 --- Recess taken at 5.02 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 5.35 p.m.
11 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) The hearing is
12 resumed. Can the accused be brought in, please?
13 (The accused entered court)
14 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) As everybody
15 has noticed, there is one Judge missing. I have to
16 inform you all of the fact that Judge Riad has been
17 taken ill very suddenly. It is, therefore, necessary
18 for him to go to the hospital to have a number of
19 check-ups. In this situation, of course, we cannot
20 proceed with the hearing. In fact, I have been told by
21 the Registry that the situation is, in fact, quite one
22 that is agreeable to the Prosecution in the sense that
23 they don't have to call in another new witness.
24 MR. BOWERS: Yes, that is correct, Your
1 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Mr. Greaves?
2 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, may I, on behalf
3 of the Defence, express the wish that Judge Riad is
4 going to be fit and well soon, and I hope that I can
5 say that on behalf of myself and my colleagues from the
7 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) I'm sure that
8 everybody sympathises with Judge Riad's situation. We
9 all greatly appreciate his intelligence and his
10 kindness, and I will transmit our best wishes to Judge
12 We will suspend the hearing, and I'm sure,
13 Mr. Greaves, this will enable you to fully take note of
14 all the particulars of this case, and I think we will
15 meet again on January 25th, if I'm not mistaken.
16 Mr. Registrar, could you help us with that?
17 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, we will sit from the
18 25th to the 29th of January.
19 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Yes, we will
20 meet again on January 25th at 2.00 in the afternoon.
21 Mr. Greaves, anything you wish to add?
22 MR. GREAVES: I thank you for your good
23 wishes. I am catching up rapidly.
24 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) I'm sure you
25 will. I'm sure that Judge Riad will be happy to know
1 that everybody is agreeing to work hard until we meet
2 again. I am about to suspend the hearing.
3 I would just like to add that my colleagues
4 and myself have one wish we would like to express.
5 When witnesses are brought in and when you put
6 questions to the witnesses, we would like these
7 questions to be focused on the issue of genocide. This
8 is the key issue in this case. Genocide is what
9 Mr. Jelisic is accused of. Therefore, in the
10 examination-in-chief or in cross-examination, what
11 interests us most is this particular issue, the
12 elements which constitute the crime of genocide. You
13 have a few weeks to think about this particular issue.
14 I would just like to turn to the accused.
15 Mr. Jelisic, could you please stand up? How do you
16 feel, Mr. Jelisic, and how is life in the detention
18 THE ACCUSED: Yes, Your Honour, the things in
19 the detention unit are going very well.
20 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Very well
22 THE ACCUSED: And if I may be allowed, on my
23 own behalf, to say that I am sorry for the condition
24 that befell Judge Riad and to wish him a speedy
1 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) I thank you on
2 his behalf.
3 The hearing is suspended. We will meet again
4 on January 25th at 2.00 in the afternoon.
5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
6 5.34 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,
7 the 25th day of January, 1998 at
8 2.00 p.m.