1 Thursday, 2nd September, 1999
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 10.10 a.m.
4 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Please be
6 Registrar, have the accused brought in,
8 Please be seated.
9 [The accused entered court]
10 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Do the
11 interpreters hear me? Good morning. Good morning to
12 Prosecution and to Defence counsel, to the accused.
13 Mr. Jelisic, do you feel all right this
14 morning? Do you feel better?
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I feel better,
16 Your Honours, because I am taking some medication
17 regularly. They are bringing it to me here.
18 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] If you have a
19 problem, do not hesitate, as always, to tell us, and
20 then we'll deal with that problem. You may be seated
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your
24 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Let me turn to
25 Mr. Nice, the Prosecutor. The floor is yours.
1 MR. NICE: Your Honour, yesterday's witness
2 was concluded. At the end of the session there was
3 some slight uncertainty as to whether the Court had
4 finished with the witness, but we understood that you
5 had no further questions to ask of him, and in those
6 circumstances, the next witness -- and indeed the next
7 several witnesses -- will be taken by my learned friend
8 Mr. Tochilovsky.
9 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] You're right,
10 Mr. Nice. It's very careful that you're watching over
11 the proper conduct of the work by the Presiding Judge.
12 It's true, I had forgotten to say that after this
13 witness we -- well, I thought that I had merely said
14 that the interpreters needed an extra break. All
15 right. We're going to have Witness D brought in.
16 Do we have a summary for Witness D,
17 Mr. Prosecutor?
18 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: Yes, Your Honour. It was
19 given to the Defence, and there is a -- we also have
20 extra copies translated into French.
21 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] When did you
22 receive it, Mr. Greaves? Could you tell us when you
23 received that? When were you given that summary?
24 MR. GREAVES: Shortly before Your Honours
25 came in.
1 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Very well. All
2 right then, I encourage you to read it carefully, and
3 if you agree with certain points, you can say so. If
4 not, you exercise the right to objections during your
6 [The witness entered court]
7 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Do you hear
8 me? This is the Presiding Judge speaking to you. Do
9 you hear me? This is a big room.
10 THE WITNESS: I can hear you.
11 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We're going to
12 call you Witness D, because you have agreed to come on
13 the condition that certain protective measures be taken
14 for you in order to ensure your protection, and the
15 Tribunal decided to grant those protective measures.
16 Please remain standing as long as it takes to read the
17 declaration which represents your oath on a piece of
18 paper that the usher is going to give you in your own
19 language. Please repeat what you see on that piece of
21 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
22 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
24 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you. You
25 may now be seated. We're going to show you a piece of
1 paper and ask you to check to be sure that this is your
2 name, but do not say your name. Simply nod to indicate
3 that it is you, in fact.
4 All right. This will now be given to the
5 Defence, and to the Prosecution if the Prosecution
6 wants it, and then to the Judges. From that point on,
7 I believe that the -- I'm sure that the Prosecutor has
8 explained to you how things are going to be conducted
9 here. I'm asking you to be relaxed, be serene, calm.
10 You're before a Tribunal, before Judges, and you are
11 part of a trial which is being held against
12 Mr. Jelisic, but be at ease, have no fear, speak
13 without hatred, try to relax.
14 The Office of the Prosecutor, through
15 Mr. Tochilovsky, is going to start by asking you
16 questions, and then of course you're going to be asked
17 questions by the Defence counsel for the accused, but
18 we haven't reached that point yet.
19 Mr. Tochilovsky, you may proceed.
20 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: Your Honour, before I
21 start -- Your Honour, the witness didn't read the
22 summary of his statements himself because he left his
23 glasses at home. So the summary was read to him, and
24 after it was read to him, he recognised the summary as
25 correct. And I understand that the Defence has no
1 objection if I lead the witness through the first four
2 paragraphs, and then it will be in regular format.
3 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] All right. If
4 there are no objections from the Defence, we'll do as
5 we did yesterday. We're going to admit as an exhibit
6 the summary which was identified by Witness D.
7 Do you have any comments, Mr. Greaves?
8 MR. GREAVES: No, Your Honour, thank you.
9 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Very well.
10 Thank you.
11 Mr. Tochilovsky, please proceed.
12 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: [Interpretation] Just one
13 small point. The witness can see without glasses, but
14 he cannot read long text. His eyes get tired.
15 WITNESS: D
16 Examined by Mr. Tochilovsky:
17 [Witness answers through interpreter]
18 Q. Mr. D, were you and your brother called from
19 your house in Mujkici in Brcko and arrested by Serb
20 forces on May 7, 1992?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Were you and two other men, including your
23 brother, ordered to clear mines from a Muslim barricade
24 in the street?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Were you moved then, with other people, from
2 your neighbourhood to the Autunovic gas station?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did another group join you at the gas station
5 before you were all moved to the stadium?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Were you then put on buses and transported to
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. When did you arrive at Luka?
11 A. 3.00 after midnight.
12 Q. For how long were you held at Luka?
13 A. Eight days.
14 Q. Did you see a man named Goran Jelisic at
16 A. [No translation]
17 Q. Can you describe the man? Can you give us
18 his description?
19 A. I don't remember him very well. If I saw him
20 in a uniform which he was wearing at the time, I would
21 be able to recognise him.
22 Q. Just tell us, what do you remember from his
24 A. He was wearing a kind of a wrist band, and he
25 had a pistol, a Scorpion, and he had a holster on his
2 Q. Did he carry anything else on him?
3 A. Occasionally, he also had a baton.
4 Q. Was it always the same baton?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did the person introduce himself to you?
7 A. Yes. Yes, he did.
8 Q. How did he introduce himself?
9 A. "I am Goran Jelisic, also known as Adolf."
10 Q. Did he express what is going to happen to
11 Muslims and whether he is going to do anything to
13 A. That as many balijas as possible should be
15 Q. Did he tell anything about what he is going
16 to do in this regard?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What did he say?
19 A. No, he just said that he would kill as many
20 balijas as possible.
21 Q. Did he ever mention the number of Muslims he
22 already killed?
23 A. Yes, he did.
24 Q. What did he say?
25 A. He twice said, "I killed two balijas, I
1 killed three balijas."
2 Q. Did you hear Jelisic giving orders to other
3 camp personnel?
4 A. He was in charge in the camp. He issued
6 Q. Were those prisoners who were taken from the
7 hangar always returned back to the hangar?
8 A. Not always. They were taken outside. Some
9 were returned, some were not.
10 Q. Do you know what happened to those who didn't
12 A. They were killed.
13 Q. Did you hear any sounds after those prisoners
14 were taken out and didn't return?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What kind of sounds?
17 A. There were shots fired, using a silencer on
18 the pistol.
19 Q. How many prisoners were taken out of the
20 hangar and never returned when you were in Luka?
21 A. I would say somewhere between 15 and 20
23 Q. Do you remember the names of any of those
24 prisoners, and just --
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Were there any of your relatives among those?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Please don't mention any names of any of your
4 relatives, but can you give us other names of those
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What other names?
8 A. Stipo, Jasce or Jasmin Curmurovic. His
9 nickname was Jasce.
10 Q. Please tell the Court, just in short, what
11 happened to Jasce Curmurovic?
12 A. On the 8th of May, he was taken out of the
13 hangar about 4.00 or 5.00 in the afternoon and killed.
14 Q. Who took him from the hangar?
15 A. Goran Jelisic.
16 Q. Again, very shortly, can you tell the Court
17 what happened to the man named Stipo?
18 A. He was brought in at Luka on the 9th May in
19 the morning. He was mistreated there. Then he was
20 taken out and killed.
21 Q. Was there anything unusual in Stipo's
22 appearance when he was brought to the hangar?
23 A. He was missing an ear. It had been cut off.
24 Q. Who brought him to the hangar?
25 A. Goran and Kosta Simonovic.
1 Q. How did they treat him?
2 A. They were spitting on him. They abused him.
3 They asked us who would volunteer to kill him, so
4 nobody accepted and they killed him.
5 Q. Can you tell the Court, again in short, what
6 happened to Naza Bukvic in the camp?
7 A. She was taken away on the 8th of May, between
8 11.00 and 12.00 in the evening, and they mistreated her
9 until the morning. Then they brought her back, and
10 they killed her sometime around 9.00 in the morning on
11 the 9th of May.
12 Q. Who mistreated her?
13 A. Goran, Kosta, and some other soldiers.
14 Q. What kind of mistreatment was it?
15 A. They beat her, they tortured her. They
16 questioned her about her brother who had worked there
17 with the police before the war.
18 Q. Can you tell the Court what happened to her
19 father, Muharem Ahmetovic?
20 A. He was killed on the same day, but in the
21 early evening, around 5.00 p.m. on the 9th of May.
22 Q. Who took him from the hangar?
23 A. Goran.
24 Q. Did he tell anything to this prisoner when he
25 took him?
1 A. Ahmetovic asked where his daughter was, and
2 Goran said, "You will find out shortly," and he saw her
3 after half an hour or so. But they did not say
4 anything else.
5 Q. Did you see Goran kill a prisoner on May 9?
6 A. I did.
7 Q. What did you see?
8 A. My brother and two more prisoners were taking
9 the body of a detainee who was killed there, and Goran
10 took out another prisoner and shot him in the neck over
11 the grate which was there.
12 Q. Did Goran say anything to the prisoner before
13 he shot him?
14 A. He did.
15 Q. What did he say?
16 A. "No reason why to waste time with you," and
17 then he killed him.
18 Q. Please don't mention the name of your
19 brother, but my question is what happened to your
20 brother in the camp?
21 A. He was killed on the 10th of May.
22 Q. Who took him from the hangar?
23 A. Goran.
24 Q. What did you hear shortly after your brother
25 was taken from the hangar by Goran?
1 A. I heard a couple of shots made by a pistol
2 with a silencer.
3 Q. Witness D, did you carry bodies of prisoners
4 in the camp?
5 A. I did.
6 Q. How many bodies did you carry when you were
7 in Luka?
8 A. When I did that, there were about 15 or 20
9 bodies that were transported.
10 Q. Were other detainees also called out to move
11 the bodies?
12 A. There were.
13 Q. How many bodies did you see at the place
14 where you took bodies?
15 A. Some 15 to 20 corpses.
16 Q. Was it each time when you took bodies to that
18 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: I think the interpreters
19 didn't hear the answer.
20 Q. Can you repeat your answer?
21 A. Yes. Yes.
22 Q. What kind of wounds did those bodies have?
23 A. Firearm wounds.
24 Q. Do you know how those bodies were taken from
25 the camp?
1 A. They were taken away in the refrigerated
2 truck of Bimeks.
3 Q. How often did you see the Bimeks truck coming
4 to the camp?
5 A. Once a day.
6 Q. Can you describe the truck? What was the
7 colour of the truck?
8 A. It was painted blue and white, and it had the
9 inscription "Bimeks" on it. Sometimes it was a
10 two-ton, sometimes it was a three-ton truck.
11 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: May I have the assistance
12 of the usher to place Prosecution Exhibit 4 before the
14 Just the left upper corner on the screen, the
15 left upper. Lower. A little bit more. Lower, more
16 lower. Yes, that is okay.
17 Q. Witness D, can you see a truck in the left
18 upper corner of this picture?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Is that the type of truck you saw in Luka?
21 A. Yes. It was also painted blue on its sides,
22 and there is also an inscription "Bimeks".
23 Q. It was white on the rear side, as it is on
24 the picture?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Thanks.
2 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: Your Honours, before I ask
3 the witness the next questions, I would respectfully
4 ask you to move into private session, because the
5 questions I have to ask are related to his identity.
6 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] All right.
7 We'll move into private session.
8 [Private session]
21 [Open session]
22 Q. With regard to the list on page 1 of Exhibit
23 12, there is the name of Ahmetovic, Muharem. Is that
24 the Ahmetovic, Muharem you just mentioned as killed in
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. On the same page, there is the name
3 Glavocevic, Stipo. Is that the same person you
4 mentioned as Stipo killed in Luka?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. On the second page of this list there is the
7 name -- in the middle of the list, there is the name
8 Jukic Sadik. Do you know anything about his fate?
9 A. He was killed at home.
10 Q. Do you know the circumstances of this
12 A. No.
13 Q. You did not see the killing?
14 A. No.
15 Q. You just heard about it?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Page 3 of the same exhibit, in the middle of
18 the list, there is the name Muranjkovic, Galib. Do you
19 know about the fate of this person?
20 A. He was killed too.
21 Q. Where was he killed?
22 A. In Luka, after I left.
23 Q. So you did not see the killing, but you were
24 told by someone else?
25 A. His brother told me.
1 Q. On the same page, Pezerovic, Suljo. Do you
2 know what happened to him?
3 A. He was killed in Luka too.
4 Q. How do you know that?
5 A. He was killed after I left, and I was told
6 that by those who were exchanged after me.
7 Q. On the bottom of this list, the name
8 Residovic, Enver; what do you know about this person?
9 A. He was killed at home.
10 Q. Do you know the circumstances in which he was
12 A. No.
13 Q. Page 4 of the exhibit, at the end of the
14 list, there are three names of Tursunovic. Sefket:
15 Have you heard about this person, what happened to him?
16 A. He was killed at home.
17 Q. Did you see that killing?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Tursunovic, Zekerija?
20 A. He was in Luka, was released, and was killed
21 in his home.
22 Q. Tursunovic, Zijad, on the same page?
23 A. That is his son. He was also in Luka, then
24 released, and then killed at home.
25 Q. But you didn't see the killing, did you?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Next is Exhibit 13. On the first page of
3 this exhibit, Hodzic, Ahmed, or Papa. Do you know
4 about his fate?
5 A. He was a businessman. He had a shop, and he
6 was killed in front of the police station.
7 Q. Did you see the killing, or you were told
8 about that?
9 A. I heard about it. I was told about it.
10 Q. Next name, on the same page, Husein Kaknjo.
11 A. He was the manager of a company. He was
12 retired, but I do not know what happened to him.
13 Q. Next page of the same list, Suljevic,
15 A. Yes. He was killed at home.
16 Q. Did you see that, or you heard that?
17 A. I heard it.
18 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Excuse me, I
19 don't quite see the name on the next page. Could you
20 make it more clear to me, please.
21 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: The name is -- it's number
22 13 -- no, it's not. Yes, it's Number 13. Suljevic,
23 Hamdija. So I will refer to numbers rather than to the
25 Q. The next number is 17, Sakib Edhemovic.
1 A. A prominent surgeon. He was killed in
3 Q. Number 36, Osman Vatic. Do you know what
4 happened to this person?
5 A. He was a lawyer and was killed in Brcko.
6 Q. Did you see what happened, or you just heard
7 about it?
8 A. I only heard about it.
9 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: I have no further
10 questions, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you,
12 Mr. Tochilovsky, for the concise way that you conducted
13 your examination of the witness. I encourage
14 Mr. Greaves, naturally, to tell us approximately how
15 much time he is going to need for his
16 cross-examination, and I go back to 90(H), which says
17 that the cross-examination must deal with the
18 examination-in-chief or with the credibility of the
20 Mr. Greaves, you may proceed.
21 MR. GREAVES: Thank you. Can I just alert
22 Your Honour to this: You'll see that I'm wearing
23 glasses today. I have a considerable problem with my
24 right eye today, and I'm in some pain. There may come
25 a time when I have to ask to go and see a doctor. I'm
1 going to struggle on for the moment, but I'm in some
2 difficulties at the moment, and I'm not very
4 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] If you have to
5 see a doctor, please tell us, and I certainly hope that
6 it isn't going to be very serious. We really are
7 having a lot of problems with glasses today.
8 Mr. Greaves, please continue.
9 Cross-examined by Mr. Greaves:
10 Q. Mr. G [sic], I want to ask you, please, about
11 your -- perhaps we can go into private session at this
12 stage, please?
13 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] This is not
14 Witness G, but rather D.
15 MR. GREAVES: I'm sorry. Perhaps we could go
16 into private session, please, for the first questions
17 that I have to ask.
18 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes, of
19 course. Let's go into a private session for the first
20 questions. Let me remind you, of course, that these
21 are generally public sessions, but please proceed.
22 [Private session]
13 Page 701 redacted – private session
13 Page 702 redacted – private session
13 Page 703 redacted – private session
13 Page 704 redacted – private session
13 Page 705 redacted – private session
2 [Open session]
3 MR. GREAVES:
4 Q. I want to ask you now, please, Mr. D, about
5 the 30th of April, 1992. That was a date when I think
6 some bridges were blown in Brcko over the River Sava.
7 Is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Is this also right, that on that day you
10 heard something on the radio, some sort of ultimatum
11 that was being issued?
12 A. No. I heard that on the 1st of May.
13 Q. I'm sorry, it's not clear from the summary
14 when it is you were saying that was what you had heard.
15 A. 1st of May.
16 Q. Who was it who gave the ultimatum? Can you
17 identify that person?
18 A. They were the leadership of the SDS.
19 Q. So there was more than one person who gave
20 this ultimatum on the radio?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Can you put any names to any of those people
23 who were on the radio, giving this ultimatum?
24 A. No.
25 Q. What was the nature of the ultimatum, Mr. D?
1 A. To turn in the weapons or else the town would
2 be shelled. In other words, that the Muslims surrender
3 the weapons.
4 Q. I want to ask you about this, please:
5 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, strictly speaking,
6 this isn't a matter which arises out of examination in
7 chief. Your Honour won't have details of this, but it
8 relates to somebody who was taken into the military
9 forces. I want to ask about the consequences of what
10 might have happened to that person had he not gone into
11 the forces.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes, but so
14 long as the Prosecutor has the chance to retort to
15 that, Mr. Greaves, and so long as it doesn't take too
16 much time. I remind you that you haven't told us how
17 much time you're going to be using.
18 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, I think about two
19 hours in all, but I hope to be less than that. But I'm
20 not sure I can keep it any shorter than that.
21 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I am simply
22 asking you to go as quickly and as concisely as you
23 can. You can set your time as you like. I don't have
24 the power to control what you're doing in your
25 cross-examination, but I can insist that you remain
1 within the limits of the examination in chief, though I
2 do agree with my colleagues, with whom I've consulted,
3 we agree that you can go outside of the examination in
4 chief. But I want you to respect strictly a proper
5 amount of time in order to conduct your
7 All right. Ask your question now,
8 Mr. Greaves.
9 MR. GREAVES:
10 Q. Mr. D, I don't want to know the name of your
11 relation, but I think that in early May 1992, a
12 relation of yours was called up into the Serb armed
13 forces. Is that correct?
14 A. No.
15 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, I don't want to
16 mention the name in open session, but he said, "No."
17 But obviously I'm asking it for a reason. Can we go
18 into closed session briefly so that I can remind him of
19 what I suggest the name is?
20 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, all
21 right. Private session.
22 [Private session]
9 [Open session]
10 MR. GREAVES:
11 Q. Mr. D, we've established and I've refreshed
12 your memory as to who we're talking about. Were you
13 aware of the circumstances in his being summoned to the
14 Serbian army?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you know at that time what the
17 consequences would have been for him had he failed to
18 answer the summons to join the army?
19 A. He would have been killed. He was forced.
20 Q. So was that well known at the time, that
21 those would have been the consequences, that if you had
22 not joined, not done as you were told, you would have
23 been liable to be killed; that was well known, was it?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. I want to ask you now, please, Mr. D, about
1 the barricade which you were asked to go and deal with
2 after your detention. Was that at a particular petrol
3 station in Brcko?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You had been arrested by soldiers. Were they
6 soldiers in uniform of the JNA?
7 A. Yes. Some were wearing uniforms, and then
8 some others were without uniforms.
9 Q. How many of the people in your neighbourhood
10 were arrested at the same time?
11 A. Somewhere around 20.
12 Q. Was it that group of 20 that was forced to go
13 to the petrol station?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Was the barricade a barricade which had been
16 established by Muslim forces or by Serb forces?
17 A. Muslim.
18 Q. Were the things that you had to remove from
19 the barricade, were they actually placed in the
20 barricade, or were they in a basement of the building,
21 or what actually had to be removed?
22 A. Anti-tank mines from the barricade.
23 Q. The soldiers who were supervising this
24 exercise, were they from all parts of the former
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What about the civilians who were with you,
3 who were part of these Serbian forces; were they local
4 people or from all over Yugoslavia?
5 A. Yes, from throughout the former Yugoslavia.
6 Q. Help me with this, please: When you were at
7 the petrol station, was there any fighting that you
8 could hear taking place in the Brcko district?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Was there any sign that there had been
11 fighting prior to your arrival at the petrol station,
12 any fighting at that location?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Was that in the form of damage or in the form
15 of signs that people had been injured or killed?
16 A. Just damage.
17 Q. During the course of the 7th of May elsewhere
18 in Brcko, did you see signs of fighting which had
19 previously taken place?
20 A. You could hear the shooting coming from the
22 Q. During the course of the 7th of May, did you
23 see any signs of people who had been killed or wounded
24 as a result of that fighting?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Is this right, that you were then joined up
2 with by other groups of people?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You were taken to some sort of stadium, a
5 sports stadium or something like that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Firstly, please, will you help us with this?
8 How many people were you joined up with before you went
9 to the stadium?
10 A. I'd say about ten.
11 Q. When you got to the stadium, were there
12 people already there who had been detained?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. How many people were already there?
15 A. Somewhere about 20.
16 Q. Is this correct, that you were taken from
17 there, during the course of the night, to Luka?
18 A. We were taken to Luka in the evening, but we
19 were brought to the stadium in the afternoon.
20 Q. Yes. Well, just give us the time at which
21 you got to the stadium?
22 A. Somewhere around 5.00.
23 Q. It was during the hours of darkness that you
24 were taken to Luka?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. At what time did you arrive at Luka?
2 A. Some three hours after midnight.
3 Q. Amongst the people who had been detained at
4 the stadium, had more come in before you were taken?
5 In other words, more people arrived after you arrived?
6 A. No.
7 Q. What was the total of people that were taken
8 from the stadium to Luka, in approximate terms?
9 A. Somewhere around 35 persons, approximately.
10 Q. Were those all men, or were they a mixture of
11 men and women?
12 A. There were also women and children.
13 Q. I'd like to ask you this, please: In your
14 statement to the Office of the Prosecutor, you give a
15 description of the camp itself, or the facility at
16 Luka, and you describe one particular building which is
17 an office building. Do you recall the office building?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Is that a building that was used by the camp
21 A. This was a customs house, or office, and it
22 was used by the camp commander.
23 Q. And are you able to help us as to who --
24 describe the camp commander to us?
25 A. Goran Jelisic was presenting himself as the
1 camp commander.
2 Q. I want to ask you now about --
3 MR. GREAVES: I'm sorry, Your Honour. Just
4 give me a moment, please.
5 Q. Just one aspect of the layout of the camp, of
6 the facility. Is this right, that behind the hangars
7 in which you were detained there is first of all a
8 railroad and then the Sava River?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. How far from the hangars is the Sava River,
11 in your estimation?
12 A. Somewhere around 20 metres.
13 Q. Having arrived at the camp, were you all put
14 into the same place, or were you separated in some way?
15 A. All in the same place.
16 Q. And was that in the first warehouse, the
17 first hangar of the buildings opposite the
18 administration offices?
19 A. Yes. Yes.
20 Q. Is this right, Mr. D, that on the morning of
21 the 8th of May, the morning after you were taken to the
22 Luka facility, the women and children were separated
23 from you and handed over to the Red Cross?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Separated by the officials at the camp?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And handed over to the safety and care of the
3 Red Cross?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Is this right, that the group of people who
6 had been gathered at the stadium and then taken to Luka
7 were all Muslims?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And it follows from that that all of the
10 women and children who were separated from you and
11 handed over to the Red Cross by officials at the camp
12 were all Muslim?
13 A. Yes.
14 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Greaves,
15 perhaps take a 20-minute break. All right?
16 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, I wonder whether
17 you would perhaps make that half an hour, please,
18 because I -- first of all, I need to see my client; but
19 I'm not feeling very well, I have to tell you. I've
20 got a very, very bad headache, and I'm feeling most
21 uncomfortable, and I would just like a break of that
22 kind, please.
23 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] All right.
24 We'll take a half hour.
25 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much, Your
2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] And if you
3 need, we can break until 12.00, not resume until 12.00.
4 MR. GREAVES: No, if you give me half an
5 hour, it's going to help. I just want to sit down
6 and -- thank you very much.
7 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Perhaps Hirad
8 can remain in contact with the Defence to see whether,
9 after a half hour, he can resume.
10 All right, we'll take our break now.
11 --- Recess taken at 11.25 a.m.
1 --- On resuming at 2.45 p.m.
2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We'll resume
3 the hearing now. Registrar, have the accused brought
4 in, please.
5 [The accused entered court]
6 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Londrovic,
7 could you tell the Trial Chamber exactly what is
8 happening with your colleague?
9 MR. LONDROVIC: Your Honours, the only
10 information I have is that something is wrong with
11 Mr. Greaves's right eye, and something is wrong with
12 the lens. And Your Honours accorded us a break of half
13 an hour, but Mr. Greaves did not feel well, and he went
14 to see a doctor, and the latest news that I have is
15 that he had gone to the doctor, but he did not call
16 again. Your secretary tried. I gave his telephone
17 number at home, and his wife answered; he had not
18 called home either. I suppose that Mr. Greaves has
19 gone to the hospital because his doctor was not in his
20 private surgery.
21 I thought that he would appear here. I
22 really did not think that he would not turn up by now,
23 by 10 to 3.
24 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] With regrets
25 that Mr. Greaves could not contact the Registrar,
1 definitely, have you heard no news?
2 THE REGISTRAR: Well, a few moments ago,
3 Mr. Greaves did contact the Registry and told us that
4 he would not be available this afternoon.
5 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Londrovic,
6 will you be able to substitute for Mr. Greaves during
7 the end of these cross-examinations? This has already
8 happened several times. Can you substitute for your
10 MR. LONDROVIC: Your Honours, with all due
11 respect to your time and the time of our learned
12 friends from the Prosecution and everybody else in this
13 courtroom, I should like to ask you to postpone the
14 cross-examination envisaged for this afternoon. Yes, I
15 did work with Mr. Greaves, but we never thought that we
16 would be faced with this situation. So I should indeed
17 like to ask you, if possible at all, to postpone the
18 resumption of this cross-examination until tomorrow
19 morning at 10.00. If Mr. Greaves feels unwell
20 tomorrow, then of course, I shall take over the
22 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you,
23 Mr. Londrovic. Under those conditions, if we are sure
24 that you will be able to replace Mr. Greaves tomorrow,
25 I guess that would perhaps be all right.
1 Turning to the Prosecutor, can you bring in
2 the next witness for the examination-in-chief? Perhaps
3 that would be the best thing to do, unless we were to
4 give you a half hour in order to go get him.
5 MR. NICE: No, I think we are probably in a
6 position to call him in very swiftly. The only thing
7 that remains to be done with that next witness is for
8 him to consider a version of the summary and to approve
9 it or, alternatively, to note corrections on it. The
10 preparation of summaries has been quite meticulous, but
11 even with all sorts of earlier preparations, the
12 translation department finds it very difficult to
13 provide updated translations of earlier draft
15 If you would permit our case manager to go
16 outside for a minute, she can find out how many minutes
17 it would take for the next witness to be ready to give
18 his evidence in chief. We can probably avoid a short
19 adjournment now if you would permit her to do that.
20 While she is doing that, could I raise
21 another topic? Because even if we take that witness in
22 chief, I don't think that will consume the totality of
23 the afternoon, and I don't know whether Mr. Londrovic
24 is ready immediately to cross-examine that witness. I
25 would hope he is, but it may be that he isn't. To deal
1 with the possibility that there will be some spare time
2 this afternoon, can I explain what the position is
3 about one of our expert witnesses, the one who would be
4 coming from Australia?
5 I asked Mr. Greaves whether he could give
6 consideration to explaining to me what was in issue
7 between him and that witness, and indeed, I suggested
8 to him if there was anything he would like the witness
9 to explain, by all means, he could telephone the
10 witness in Australia, of course at our expense, and see
11 if he could obtain help from the witness in that way.
12 In the event, Mr. Greaves has been good
13 enough to explain to me that there is only one issue
14 concerning that witness. The witness's name is Wright,
15 and he deals with exhumation of a mass grave. And the
16 Defence, as I am informed, are going to argue that one
17 particular paragraph of the report -- it's paragraph
18 9 -- is inadmissible from this particular witness.
19 Well, now, of course, in order to discuss
20 issues of admissibility, the Chamber has to have some
21 -- probably some detailed knowledge of what it is that
22 the witness would be led by us to give in evidence, and
23 accordingly, it would be necessary for the Tribunal to
24 consider to some degree the report of Mr. Wright to
25 know what's going to be argued. And it had occurred to
1 me as potentially a useful use of this afternoon's time
2 to distribute to the Court the report of Mr. Wright,
3 which is available in English and French, and to invite
4 you at least to look at paragraph 9 of it, in order
5 that we could argue the admissibility of that paragraph
6 this week; today or tomorrow.
7 Once it's been resolved as it could be,
8 whether the paragraph is admissible or not, or whether
9 it's only admissible on certain terms, then I'll be
10 able to make the decision whether it's necessary to
11 call the witness from Australia or not, and of course
12 if it's not necessary to call him, for whatever reason,
13 his report can be read with very considerable saving of
14 time and money.
15 So may I, at some stage this afternoon,
16 distribute to Your Honours, in whatever language you
17 would prefer, this report and invite you to consider
18 it, at least as far as paragraph 9 is concerned.
19 I'm told, incidentally, that the witness
20 needs another 15 minutes to peruse the summary, and so
21 can I say a little bit more about the report to
22 explain, without arguing the point one way or another,
23 what paragraph 9 is about.
24 The witness, Professor Wright, I think it's a
25 professor, with representatives of the Office of the
1 Prosecution, examined the mass grave outside Brcko and
2 is able to give clear and, it appears, unchallenged
3 evidence of the findings of bodies in four of the
4 graves, and indeed he's able to derive conclusions
5 about the movement of bodies from the grave after the
6 bodies were first laid there and matters of that sort.
7 In paragraph 9, he deals with the findings of
8 both bricks and masonry that was found on a layer above
9 the bodies in certain places, and he draws certain
10 conclusions from the nature of masonry found, in
11 particular the cut angles of particular bits of
12 masonry, which are consistent with having come from a
13 mosque, and there's another piece of masonry that is
14 plainly of Muslim origin. So that's the paragraph.
15 It's of some significance to the Prosecution, because
16 it would, as it were, be heaping insult on injury, not
17 only to cover a mass grave with something but to cover
18 it with the masonry of a destroyed mosque. So it's not
19 an irrelevant or immaterial piece of evidence, but it's
20 something about which the Defence wish to argue.
21 So if I can distribute the document, and if
22 the Chamber has some time this afternoon to consider at
23 least that paragraph, then we'll be well poised to
24 argue admissibility, and I'll be able, before the
25 weekend, to decide whether that witness need be
1 troubled to come all the way from Australia.
2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I understand
3 what you've said. I understand, Mr. Nice. But does
4 this have anything to do with admissibility? It seems
5 to me that what you've said has more to do with the
6 amount of weight to be given to this or that passage in
7 the report. But as regards admissibility as an
8 exhibit, does that play a role?
9 You are speaking about things which are being
10 challenged, but does this prevent the admission of the
11 material as an exhibit, even if further on the Defence
12 were to contest it, contest it either by demanding that
13 the witness arrive or by other means?
14 MR. NICE: Your Honour, of course I will be
15 arguing that the answer to that question is "No" and
16 indeed it doesn't affect admissibility, but I can't
17 really judge the strength or power of my learned
18 friend's argument to exclude when he makes it. I'm
19 simply using the available time to set the scene, and I
20 can't present argument further at this stage. I must
21 wait for Mr. Greaves, or maybe Mr. Londrovic could
22 advance the arguments they wish to advance.
23 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I think that
24 we're going to wait until we see the article, the
25 report, but I think that's really a question of
1 substance and weight to be given to that paragraph 9.
2 Since I don't have it in front of me, I can't say
3 anything more.
4 If you agree, it's now 3.00, I suggest we
5 adjourn until 3.30. But at 3.30, we will hear the next
6 witness, that is, the examination in chief, and we'll
7 ask Mr. Londrovic to prepare himself for conducting the
8 cross-examination, then to use the time that he has
9 until 5.30, assuming that the Prosecution has finished
10 before that. It's now 3.00. I think that will give
11 you enough time for the witness, that is, 30 minutes,
12 and during that time you will be sure that you give us
13 the reports. You will distribute the report; is that
14 correct, Mr. Nice?
15 MR. NICE: The French, English, or both?
16 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Theoretically,
17 I would have a slight preference for the French
18 version, but if you would really prefer I read it in
19 English, I'll somehow manage, but it will take a little
20 longer. But you're very kind. As far as I'm
21 concerned, I would prefer to have it in French.
22 MR. NICE: It will come to Your Honour in
24 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Perhaps the
25 usher can distribute it. It's very kind of you, and I
1 think that you've given us some work for the next half
2 hour, though I ask the registrar to give us the report
3 as we go out during this forced adjournment.
4 All right. We will adjourn until 3.30.
5 JUDGE RIAD: Can I have it in the two
6 languages to check the translation?
7 MR. NICE: Very well.
8 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you.
9 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] And Judge
10 Rodrigues would prefer it, who does not have a
11 Portuguese version here since it's not an official
12 version, he would prefer it in French as well, and that
13 way we can check both versions.
14 Thank you very much, Judge Riad.
15 Mr. Londrovic, excuse me, I thought that you
16 had agreed with everything that had been taken up, but
17 perhaps you aren't. Excuse me for interrupting you.
18 MR. LONDROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
19 I should only like to respond to what Mr. Nice has
21 From what I learned from Mr. Greaves with
22 regard to this expert statement, the Defence objects
23 against I believe it is paragraph 9. But as it was in
24 English, I had no opportunity of reading it in our
25 language, so I haven't read it. But Mr. Greaves enjoys
1 my full trust.
2 The Defence objects to one part of the
3 statement. As my learned friend from the Prosecution
4 correctly said, it concerns this building material,
5 this masonry which the witness claims comes from a
7 So we, however, decided to agree with the
8 Prosecution and not to ask this witness to come. We
9 also suggested that if they agree to strike out this
10 part of the statement which we find contention, then we
11 shall agree to the rest of the statement, and we shall
12 also accept that the witness -- and we shall also not
13 insist on calling this witness.
14 If the Prosecution, however, does not want to
15 strike this part from the statement, if I understood
16 Mr. Greaves properly, then we shall be objecting to
17 this statement, and we shall also want to cross-examine
18 that witness with regard to some of the circumstances
19 and things in that statement.
20 I should also like to add something else, if
21 I may. Of course, I'm not objecting against
22 examination in chief of the next witness, and then I
23 hope we shall have a break, and if Mr. Greaves is not
24 ready tomorrow, then I shall take over the
25 cross-examination. But will you please allow me not to
1 begin with the cross-examination of any witness today?
2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] As regards the
3 first point, I don't think we can say anything further
4 until the Judges have read it.
5 As regards the second request, the Judges
6 will take a decision at the proper time. But let me
7 remind you that the Defence works together. The
8 accused has two counsel, and both of the counsel are
9 interchangeable, theoretically. At least you should be
10 able to organise yourself in that manner. In
11 circumstances when Mr. Greaves began a
12 cross-examination, we will not force you to continue
13 with it. That seems clear, and in fact we've already
14 said that to you. But as regards the rest, there has
15 to be some reason for having two counsel, two lawyers,
16 Mr. Londrovic. Therefore, perhaps today it would be
17 useful for you to work with your client, who is going
18 to need you even more than he might on another day.
19 Perhaps he won't need you to do it, perhaps it won't be
20 very long either, but I do ask that you prepare
21 yourself should the cross-examination take place
23 All right. We're going to adjourn now until
25 --- Recess taken at 3.04 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 3.35 p.m.
2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We will now
3 resume the hearing. Have the accused brought in,
5 [The accused entered court]
6 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Greaves, we
7 are very pleased to see you back. How do you feel?
8 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, the position is
9 this. I went first of all this morning to the main
10 hospital in the centre of The Hague. In due course,
11 they sent me on to the eye specialist hospital at
12 Leijenburg, which is on the outskirts of The Hague, and
13 I was seen by an eye specialist at that hospital. I
14 have had a -- diagnosed an eye infection which may or
15 may not spread to my left eye. I have been given some
16 treatment for it in the form of an antibiotic
17 ointment. That has left me in the situation where I
18 cannot see properly out of my right eye at all at the
19 present time.
20 I do not feel fit enough to continue
21 cross-examining the witness that I started
22 cross-examining this morning. I hope Your Honours will
23 understand that. It's obviously a considerable regret
24 to me that that's happened, but I fear that that nature
25 sometimes has a way of making difficulties for all of
2 What I would ask Your Honour to be able to do
3 -- and I understand from my learned friend Mr. Nice
4 that the witness has now been sent back to his hotel --
5 is to be able to resume, in due course, his
6 cross-examination. I've been told by the doctor that
7 if there is no improvement in my eye, I have to return
8 to the hospital tomorrow morning; but of course I hope
9 that I shall feel better then and will be able to
11 Your Honour, I have only recently returned,
12 and I have had a brief conversation with my learned
13 colleague, Mr. Londrovic. I understand that the
14 proposition at the moment is this. The next witness,
15 who has not yet been examined in chief, should come and
16 be examined in chief, and as I understand it, the
17 initial proposal was that my learned friend should
18 cross-examine him. May I please address Your Honour
19 about the second of those two propositions?
20 We have no difficulty with the idea that Your
21 Honour should hear the evidence in chief of the next
22 witness, but the way in which the defence of
23 Mr. Jelisic has been organised is such that we
24 complement each other in the tasks that we undertake.
25 There are many tasks that Mr. Londrovic undertakes
1 which are things that I simply couldn't begin to
2 undertake at all. Conversely, there are tasks which
3 have been delegated to me, which are tasks that have
4 been delegated to me because of my experience in the
5 English criminal courts, and, in particular, as you
6 will have seen, I have been delegated the task of
7 cross-examining each witness, and I have prepared the
8 cross-examination of each witness.
9 We would respectfully ask that whilst we have
10 absolutely no objection to the proposition that you
11 should hear the evidence in chief of the next witness,
12 that the tasks having been delegated in that way, we
13 should be allowed to organise our defence -- continue
14 to organise our defence in the way in which we have
15 been planning for many months now, and that
16 Mr. Londrovic should not be forced into a situation
17 where, without having prepared a cross-examination,
18 Your Honour should force him to do that.
19 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice, what
20 is your opinion about this? Because this is causing a
21 great many difficulties. And I would like to remind
22 you, Mr. Greaves, that the Rules say that I must avoid
23 all needless consumption of time. And as you were not
24 here before, and you didn't perhaps know that
25 Mr. Londrovic had accepted the suggestion of the
1 Tribunal, but your being here shows us that even though
2 you cannot see everything through your eyes, your mind
3 is very lively, and you've even understood
4 Mr. Londrovic's position.
5 But before the Judges change their position,
6 we would like to hear what the Prosecutor has to say.
7 Mr. Nice, this case is becoming very delicate, and I
8 would like justice to be conducted within this Tribunal
9 in the proper way. The presence of two attorneys is a
10 right which is acknowledged in the Tribunal for each
11 accused; some even have three counsel or even more.
12 But of course it is self-evident that for the OTP, the
13 defence is indivisible, as is the Office of the
14 Prosecutor. One must be prepared, and I believe that
15 we are trying to facilitate the Defence's work.
16 Mr. Nice, you will bring in the next witness,
17 and then you will conduct the examination-in-chief.
18 About how much time are you going to need?
19 MR. NICE: 40 minutes. Between 40 minutes
20 and one hour, I would have thought. We are obviously
21 very concerned about the recent course of events,
22 having in mind that we are still calling witnesses who
23 were called on a previous occasion and then not
24 reached, for want of time, and detained in The Hague
25 for either one or two weekends. I summoned eight
1 witnesses last weekend, forecasting, as has proved to
2 be the case, that it would be possible to deal with the
3 examination-in-chief in a very compact way. And I
4 think the first witness took under two hours -- one
5 hour and 40 minutes -- actually in the witness box, of
6 which a significant proportion was devoted to the lists
7 which were dealt with at the request of the Defence. I
8 think the second witness in chief was well under an
9 hour, and I think Your Honour may have mentioned 35 or
10 45 minutes, and likewise the last witness, at the
11 dextrous hands of Mr. Tochilovsky, was about half an
12 hour or a little more.
13 We have five witnesses, brought here before
14 last weekend, still to go, so we are very concerned at
15 the possibility of further time being taken which would
16 be properly used if both counsel were able to
17 cross-examine. And I have noticed that Mr. Greaves has
18 at all times referred to Mr. Londrovic as the lead
19 counsel, and it is astonishing to think that either
20 counsel, but certainly the lead counsel, should not in
21 principle be in a position to perform one of the
22 fundamental tasks of defence counsel in this Tribunal.
23 So with all respect for and understanding of
24 the problems faced by the Defence, we would press the
25 Court to require that the examination and
1 cross-examination of these witnesses continues as soon
2 as possible, and not later than tomorrow morning.
3 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Would you like
4 to respond to that, Mr. Greaves? But please don't
5 repeat what you've already said.
6 MR. GREAVES: I won't. I was simply going to
7 say to Your Honour that I think I've set out what the
8 position is.
9 Of course, my learned friend Mr. Londrovic
10 wasn't expecting to have to cross-examine someone. He
11 hasn't prepared a cross-examination for the next
12 witness. Preparing such a cross-examination takes
13 several hours, and I tend to sit up into the early
14 hours of the morning preparing matters, and it's not
15 something that necessarily one can do just at the click
16 of one's fingers. That, I'm sure, Your Honour having
17 been associated with the courts for a long time, will
18 appreciate only too well, what the position is when you
19 have to deal with something like that unexpectedly.
20 Of course, it's desirable, if one can, if one
21 was in the best of all possible worlds, one can take
22 things up immediately, but the reality is my learned
23 friend has not prepared himself for that situation. No
24 doubt, if he has the notice of overnight, he could
25 prepare in contingency for cross-examining the next
1 witness tomorrow morning, but I hope that I will be
2 here and able to do that.
3 I hope that assists Your Honour.
4 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Who is the lead
5 counsel for the Defence team? Is it you,
6 Mr. Londrovic? Who is the lead counsel, if there is a
7 lead counsel?
8 MR. LONDROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
9 there is no lead or boss in our team. We work
11 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I congratulate
12 you. You know, when one has lead counsel or chiefs,
13 it's always a tricky business, how he can designate a
14 chief. I would like first, however, to speak with my
16 [Trial Chamber deliberates]
17 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] The Trial
18 Chamber Judges, confronted with this exceptional
19 situation of the fact that the cross-examination could
20 not be conducted by Mr. Greaves, rule as follows in
21 this case:
22 They would first like to recall the principle
23 which they draw from Rule 90(G). That is, the Trial
24 Chamber shall exercise control over the mode of
25 interrogating witnesses and presenting evidence so as
1 only to make it effective and to avoid the needless
2 consumption of time. The Judges would also like to
3 assert that respect which is owed to the witness is
4 basic, especially under these circumstances, that this
5 trial has already been interrupted on several occasions
6 for different reasons. Under these conditions, the
7 Judges take from these principles the obligation for
8 Mr. Londrovic to conduct the cross-examination.
9 Nonetheless, exceptionally and for the
10 twofold reason that in any case this afternoon is
11 already almost over, neither Mr. Londrovic nor
12 Mr. Greaves could know in advance the Judges' position
13 in this Trial Chamber in a difficult case where one of
14 the members could not be present -- I'm not speaking
15 about the Office of the Prosecutor -- in a case where
16 he could not carry out the case that was assigned to
17 him. Exceptionally, the Judges have decided that this
18 afternoon will be devoted to the examination in chief,
19 and then afterwards the Court will adjourn until
20 tomorrow morning.
21 Lastly, the Judges would like to point out,
22 both to the Prosecution and to the Defence, that in the
23 future, any inability on the part of one of the members
24 of either office must be immediately corrected by
25 substituting the other member of the team.
1 Therefore, it's in consideration of the fact
2 that you were not informed that exceptionally the
3 Judges are granting your request, Mr. Greaves, and
4 under these conditions we can now move to the
5 examination in chief of the following witness. At 9.00
6 tomorrow morning, either Mr. Londrovic or Mr. Greaves
7 will conduct both the cross-examinations which will not
8 have been done after the examination in chief of
9 Witness D and the cross-examination of this witness
11 We can now bring in the next witness.
12 MR. NICE: The next witness, who attended on
13 an earlier occasion, was granted measures of protection
14 and was given the pseudonym letter E and is to enjoy
15 the benefit of distortion of the facial image.
16 MR. GREAVES: Would Your Honours kindly give
17 me leave to withdraw from the Court this afternoon and
18 to do it as quietly as I can.
19 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] You don't have
20 to be quite that silent. You are entitled to have
21 yourself treated, and you should know that as the
22 co-chief of the Defence team, we have full confidence
23 in Mr. Londrovic. Take care of yourself, Mr. Greaves,
24 and we hope we will see you again tomorrow morning.
25 MR. GREAVES: Thank you, Your Honours, for
1 your very considerable consideration, and it's much
2 appreciated by me.
3 [The witness entered court]
4 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Do you hear me,
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
7 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] First you are
8 going to read the solemn declaration which is being
9 given to you by the usher. Read it in your own
10 language. Please proceed.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly
12 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,
13 and nothing but the truth.
14 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Very well.
15 Witness E, please be seated.
16 First of all, we're going to ask you to
17 verify your name on a piece of paper without, however,
18 stating it. The usher will show you your name. Do not
19 state your name. Simply nod if, in fact, it is your
20 first and last name. [Witness complies]
21 You are covered by protective measures. This
22 is a closed session, and you can therefore speak
23 without fear. You're protected within this Tribunal in
24 this trial which has been initiated by the Prosecutor
25 against Mr. Goran Jelisic.
1 First you're going to answer the Prosecutor's
2 questions, and tomorrow, most likely, you will answer
3 the questions asked by Mr. Jelisic's Defence counsel.
4 Mr. Nice, please proceed.
5 MR. NICE: I have provided the Court with
6 bundles of summaries in English, French, and B/C/S.
7 I'm sorry they weren't available earlier, but there
8 have been difficulties, as you know, with the ordering
9 of witnesses. If they could be distributed now, both
10 to the Court and to the Defence, in whatever language
11 would be most suitable, I would be grateful.
12 If the usher -- I think the Defence would
13 require some copies of the summaries in probably all
14 languages, and if a copy in B/C/S could go to the
16 WITNESS: WITNESS E
17 Examined by Mr. Nice:
18 [Witness answers through interpreter]
19 Q. Witness E, is the document you're looking at
20 a summary in B/C/S that has been read by you; "Yes" or
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Is it accurate, to the best of your knowledge
24 and belief?
25 A. Yes.
1 MR. NICE: May that therefore become an
2 exhibit, with the English and French versions of it
3 marked in a way that accords with the way similar
4 documents have been marked in the past.
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. LONDROVIC: [Interpretation] My apologies
7 to both the Trial Chamber and to the learned colleague
8 Mr. Nice, but I do not have a copy of the summary in
10 THE REGISTRAR: This is Prosecution Exhibit
11 22, 22A for the French version and 22B for the B/C/S
13 MR. NICE:
14 Q. Witness E, were you, on the 14th of May of
15 1992, arrested in Brcko and taken to the facility at
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You go there to the administration office,
19 where you were questioned and where you surrendered
20 your identification papers. Did you thereafter wait
21 outside the office?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did a car arrive?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Who was in the car?
1 A. I didn't know his name until I came into his
2 office, and his name was Adolf.
3 Q. Before we come to that, my mistake. While
4 outside the office, did you see something of a woman
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. How did she arrive, on foot or in a vehicle?
8 A. I just want to clarify which one. Adolf
9 came, and also a woman came with him.
10 Q. Yes, but before that, I want to deal with a
11 woman who may have arrived separately and arrived as a
12 detainee. Can you help with that woman, please?
13 A. Yes, of course I can. This woman was brought
14 in a red van. She was brought by Arkan's men. She was
15 delivered into the building across from the hangar.
16 MR. NICE: Could the witness please look
17 first at our Exhibit 16, which can be placed on the
18 ELMO. I'll hand to the usher another series of
19 photographs which will become a subsequent exhibit in
20 preparation, but let's look at this exhibit first.
21 Q. Witness E, in order to preserve your facial
22 anonymity, when I ask you to indicate something on the
23 photograph, would you use the pointer that the usher
24 will hand to you. Use the pointer. Stay in your seat,
25 but point it out not on the screen but on the
1 photograph that's to your right-hand side where the
2 usher is indicating. If you look to your right, on
3 there. Right. If you point something out there, then
4 we can all see it. Do you see it?
5 So where were you and where was the woman
6 when she first arrived?
7 A. It's on the right photograph [indicating].
8 It is, yes, a hangar, but there is no office, because
9 that office was further to the right from this office
10 that we can see.
11 MR. NICE: Very well. Then the next
12 photograph, which is going to become an exhibit, can
13 conveniently -- if this doesn't offend the rules, if
14 one version can be laid on the ELMO and the rest
15 produced as exhibits. It saves the usher some time.
16 This can become Exhibit 23, I think.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, that is Prosecution
18 Exhibit 23.
19 MR. NICE:
20 Q. When the woman arrived, does this photograph
21 show where she went or where she waited?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Using the pointer, show us where, please.
24 A. This is his office [indicating]. That is the
25 entrance to his office [indicating], and the woman was
1 here [indicating] and I was here [indicating].
2 Q. Sorry, where were you?
3 A. Right here [indicating], next to this door
4 here [indicating], leaning against a wall.
5 Q. What state was the woman in? What, if
6 anything, was she saying?
7 A. The woman was wearing a red sweater, a
8 chequered skirt, and her hair was quite dishevelled,
9 and she wore slippers on her feet.
10 Q. Did she say anything?
11 A. She was only shouting, crying out, "I am not
12 guilty, I am not guilty, I have done nothing."
13 Q. Some minutes later, did another vehicle
15 A. Yes, a black car. It reached the petrol
16 station, entered about 10 metres inside, and stopped.
17 Q. Who was in the car?
18 A. I did not know his name before, but a man in
19 police clothes came out, and a girl who was wearing a
20 white dress, black stockings, a white dress with dots.
21 Q. The man, did he carry anything with him?
22 A. Yes, he had a sawn-off rifle. It was about
23 that size [indicating]. I did not know the name of
24 that particular rifle. And this girl had a pistol in
25 her hand.
1 Q. On arrival, did the man -- that is, the man,
2 the man in the car -- did he speak to any other
3 uniformed person present?
4 A. No, that man in uniform was approached by
5 this man with long hair, and said there was a balija
6 woman, an SDA woman, there.
7 Q. The woman who had recently arrived, was she
8 standing or sitting?
9 A. Sitting.
10 Q. What did the man who had arrived, who was
11 carrying the gun, then do?
12 A. He walked in her direction and got her by the
13 scruff of her neck with his left hand and drew her to
14 one of his offices -- it could be right here
15 [indicating] -- and made her fall, pushed her so she
16 fell down against the kerb, and then he fired at the
17 back of her head.
18 Q. Where was her head -- precisely, if you can
19 say -- in relation to any feature of the road or the
20 gutter or the kerb?
21 A. There is a kerb here [indicating], next to
22 his office, and right next to the kerb, that is where
23 he pushed her and killed her.
24 Q. When her head went down, did you see what her
25 head was over when it went down?
1 A. Well, as he fired, she just remained lying
3 Q. I meant what part of the road or the gutter,
4 or whatever it was, was her head over --
5 A. There, right on the kerb [indicating].
6 That's where she was, and then the one with the long
7 hair shouted at us that we had to go in, that we had to
8 move into the hangar.
9 Q. Did you see that man, and the woman who had
10 arrived with him, afterwards?
11 A. With whom? The one in the police uniform
12 killed her, and the one with the long hair pushed me
13 and the other one who was detained with me, he pushed
14 us into the hangar. It was a warehouse, as they called
15 it, a warehouse. This one here [indicating]. That's
16 where we entered.
17 Q. Inside the hangar, were there other people
18 present, or were you the only ones there?
19 A. There were quite a number of people there.
20 Q. Did the man and the long-haired girl or woman
21 come into that hangar?
22 A. The hairy one, the long-haired one, ordered
23 us to enter. We entered, and to my right-hand side, in
24 the hangar, there were quite a number of people. I was
25 sitting here, across this door. That is, next to the
1 railway tracks there is another door, and next to this
2 door was a chair.
3 Q. Did the man, the man in the police uniform,
4 come into the hangar, and did he say something or did
5 he do something?
6 A. Yes. He entered the warehouse and fired into
7 the ceiling.
8 Q. Did he say anything or do anything at that
10 A. No, at that moment, he was silent and fired
11 at the hangar.
12 Q. The woman with whom he had arrived, was she
13 with him?
14 A. Yes, she was.
15 Q. What, if anything, did she have with her?
16 A. She had a pistol in her hand.
17 Q. What did she do?
18 A. Later on, she went from one man to the other
19 asking for their full name. She reached me; I was
20 sitting on the chair. She asked me what my first and
21 last name was. I told her, and she aimed at me but
22 then fired a bullet into the door right next by my
24 Q. At this time or at about this time, had the
25 man in the police uniform been saying anything, or
1 looking for any particular person, or anything like
3 A. Nothing. He wasn't looking for anything. He
4 went out. And as he was going out, another one, in a
5 police uniform too, said that there was a Croat there
6 who had raped a nine-year-old Serb girl. Adolf then
7 approached him and kicked him in the head.
8 Q. Just "Yes" or "No": Were you provided some
9 food that evening?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And after you were provided food, did you see
12 the man in the police uniform again, either in the
13 hangar or at the hangar door?
14 A. In the hangar door, in the doorway.
15 Q. And was he the only person there in uniform,
16 or was there somebody else there as well?
17 A. He was wearing a police uniform, and that one
18 with the long hair was in a multi-coloured uniform, and
19 the others were wearing the old SMB -- Yugoslav, that
20 is, People's Army uniforms.
21 Q. What happened on this occasion when you saw
23 A. Nothing. But he left, and then they began
24 distributing supper.
25 Q. Was there a man present who'd been a male
1 nurse at a hospital?
2 A. He was the one who distributed food.
3 Q. What ultimately happened to him?
4 A. Ultimately, what happened to him is that a
5 soldier -- rather a man in a police uniform came, took
6 him out, and he was hitting him with his baton, and
7 there were two men in the doorway, and also hit him in
8 the chest. He fell and cried out, and meanwhile, I
9 only heard a shot.
10 Q. Did you see that man who had been male nurse
11 again or not?
12 A. No. No. No.
13 Q. At the time that he was called out, the man
14 you've been referring to as Adolf, where was he?
15 A. Outside.
16 Q. Was this the only man who was called out of
17 the warehouse or were there other people called out?
18 A. Another one, also a male nurse, he was also
19 taken out, and I could hear how they beat him. That
20 same policeman hit him by the door, and when he would
21 reach the door, the others would meet him with their
22 feet and would kick him, and then, as he would come out
23 of the door, one could hear a shot.
24 Q. Any other detainees removed? So how many
1 A. Eight, with me being the ninth.
2 Q. What happened to the total of eight? Was it
3 the same as had happened to the earlier detainees or
5 A. Same. Same. Also a shot, a scream, a shot,
6 and the same policeman came up to me and told me -- I
7 was wearing a yellow T-shirt, and he said, "You,
8 yellow, you come with me."
9 Q. Just to conclude what you can help us with
10 about those first eight people, did you see any of
11 those alive again after the time when you heard shots?
12 A. No. No.
13 Q. You, taken out at as the ninth, where were
14 you taken?
15 A. The policeman came after me and said, "Come,
16 yellow guy, your turn. Stand up." I stood up, and he
17 began to beat me with his baton. He ordered me to
18 run. I was running, and he was hitting me. As I
19 reached the door, all I could see, only how a foot came
20 up and hit me in the chest. I fell, and they beat me
21 and beat me and beat me.
22 And the one with -- the long-haired guy, he
23 pulled me by my hair and made me stand up, and he told
24 me to enter. I started to where I had turned over my
25 documents. I started towards this office, and he hit
1 me, and he said, "Not there; over here." And I thought
2 they wanted to kill me in the WC, so I started towards
3 the toilet. I saw the door; I entered. They were
4 sitting inside, nine of them.
5 Q. Can you pause just for one minute. Remember,
6 please, Witness E, that there are, of course, some
7 people who are interpreting what you're saying into
8 another language, and if you can try and go just a
9 little bit more slowly, it'll make their jobs that much
10 more easy.
11 A. Sure.
12 Q. Could you use the pointer and the photograph
13 that's on the device on your right and show which
14 doorway you went into when you were taken across the
15 road? Does it show it here?
16 A. That's the door [indicating]. That's the
18 Q. And when you went in there eventually, who
19 was inside?
20 A. There were troops, and the one in the police
21 uniform, called Adolf, was sitting there, because they
22 called him Adolf.
23 Q. When you say "they" called him Adolf, do you
24 mean other people in this room? Or had you heard him
25 called Adolf before then?
1 A. The one with the long hair, he addressed him
2 as Adolf, and that was when I heard that his name was
4 Q. How many people altogether were there in this
6 A. There were nine of them, and he was the
8 Q. What happened?
9 A. When they brought me in, a young man was
10 standing, dark T-shirt and camouflage trousers.
11 Q. What happened to you?
12 A. The one in the black T-shirt asked Adolf,
13 "Shall this one beat him or the one in the black
14 T-shirt?" And Adolf answered, "You, Sasa. You hit
16 And Sasa took gloves, put them on, and made
17 me lean against a wardrobe and began to beat me. And
18 he beat me and he beat me until he got me in the
19 temple. As he hit me in the temple, I began to fall,
20 and as I was falling, Adolf kicked me with his feet. I
21 fell down on the floor, and all I felt was water
22 pouring down my neck.
23 So they took me back in. Adolf stood up and
24 began to beat me. One young man from the corner then
25 spoke up: "Adolf, don't beat him. It's a shame; he is
1 a poor man." And Adolf said, "What do you mean, he's a
2 poor man?" And he said, "Well, he carries things for
3 other people, he drives, he does all sorts of chores
4 for other people."
5 And then Adolf stopped beating me and told me
6 to go and wash the blood off my face. And I went and
7 washed myself and came back. And then he ordered me to
8 sit down next to him, and I sat down, and then he told
9 me, "Nobody has left this room alive, but you are going
10 home, and go and feed that child of yours and your
11 wife." And then he wrote a pass for me.
12 Q. I may come to the pass in just a minute, but
13 while you were sitting in the chair in the office, did
14 somebody come into the office, one of the other men,
15 and say something to Adolf?
16 A. Yes. Yes. He did.
17 Q. What did you believe his name to be?
18 A. Sok.
19 Q. What did you notice about his condition?
20 A. His hands were bloody. And he told Adolf, "I
21 did what you told me to do. I cut off his ears, his
22 nose, and I gouged his eyes out. What do I do next
23 with him?"
24 And Adolf told him, "Go and kill him." And
25 he said, "I will not kill him; I will slit his
2 Q. Can we deal now with the pass? Tell us about
3 the pass. You were given a pass?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. By whom?
6 A. Adolf.
7 Q. Will you look, please, at this document. It
8 has an English translation attached to it, but I'm
9 afraid not a French one, I think -- it may have French,
11 THE REGISTRAR: I have a copy in French,
12 English, and Serbo-Croat.
13 MR. NICE: May it collectively, then, be
14 Exhibit 24, or whatever it is.
15 May the usher please --
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
17 Microphone for the counsel.
18 MR. NICE: I'm sorry about the microphone.
19 Could the usher very kindly put an English version on
20 the ELMO, with the witness having the original version
21 from which to read -- sorry; I'm grateful to
22 Mr. Tochilovsky. Can I have that back a moment? Thank
24 Q. The English version has the name blanked out,
25 and Witness E, you are, of course, not to mention your
1 name at all, because you are a protected witness.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Looking, as you do, at the original version,
4 is this a copy of the document that was provided to
6 A. The one before me, yes.
7 Q. And it purports to come from the Serb
8 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Autonomous
9 District of Semberija and Majevica, Brcko
10 municipality. There is a number given, and a date, the
11 14th of May, and it reads --
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. -- "Pursuant to the decision of the War
14 Presidency of the Brcko Municipality," and then the
15 decision's number is given. It says, "The following
16 pass is issued," and it sets out your name and ID
17 number. "Special allowing him to leave the war zone
18 and the area of the Brcko municipality. This pass must
19 be used exclusively with an identification card." It
20 is then signed over an official stamp on the
21 original: "War Presidency of the Brcko Municipality,"
22 signed "Adolf." Is that correct?
23 A. It is.
24 Q. Did you see that document being signed, or
25 not, or can't you remember?
1 A. What do you mean, "signed"? This document he
2 signed, and he wrote, and it was 100 per cent checked,
3 and he gave it to me and told me that nobody will lay
4 his finger on me; that whoever stopped me, all I had to
5 do was show him this document. And I brought this
6 document home.
7 Q. While you were in the office, was something
8 said about an army major who had arrived at Luka?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Tell us about that.
11 A. Sok entered and told Adolf that Major had
12 arrived and said that the killing had to be stopped,
13 and Adolf answered "I am here."
14 Q. Yes? Did he go on and say anything else? He
15 said "I am here"; what did he mean by that?
16 A. "If need be, I will also square the accounts
17 with the whole army."
18 Q. You were at Luka for what period of time,
19 Witness E, altogether?
20 A. Altogether, I was brought at 12, and that
21 policeman, that lad who took me home, that Goran, he
22 told Adolf, and it was that he would also be caught by
23 the curfew, that he could not move around either, and
24 the curfew was -- it means around 9.00 in the evening.
25 Q. You left Luka at what time?
1 A. Well, when it -- if this Goran said that the
2 curfew would be shortly, Adolf then said that we could
3 go, and I and this Goran left, and he brought me home.
4 Q. So you were there for something under nine
5 hours, but --
6 A. Yes, yes.
7 Q. -- most of the time that you were there, who
8 appeared to be in control at Luka?
9 A. In control in Luka? Adolf.
10 Q. Was there anybody else who seemed to have
11 authority superior to or authority over Adolf?
12 A. No, no, because all of them, both Sok and
13 Sasa and everybody else, addressed him and turned to
14 him, to Adolf. There was nobody else responsible.
15 Since he gave me the pass, then it was quite obvious
16 who was in control. Adolf.
17 Q. Did you get to know Adolf by any other name?
18 A. I learned, when I escaped across both front
19 lines and got to our territory where we were, then I
20 learned from stories that that was that Goran Jelisic.
21 But I knew him in Luka only as Adolf.
22 Q. Answer the following question just "Yes" or
23 "No", if you would, please.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. If you were to see this man again now, do you
1 think you'd recognise him or not? Just "Yes" or "No".
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Please look around this room and see if you
4 can see the man Adolf.
5 A. [Witness complies]
6 MR. NICE: The witness identified the
8 Q. Can you clear one thing up for us, in case
9 there's any confusion? You also used the name "Goran",
10 I think, in reference to the person who took you home.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Is that another person called -- well, is
13 that person called Goran different from Adolf?
14 A. Different, yes. It was a child, a young man,
15 a boy. He couldn't have been more than 19. I knew him
16 from the civilian life. That boy came from Grcica, and
17 Adolf knows only too well who that was.
18 Q. Going back to the first particular event that
19 you told us about, the killing, by shooting, of the
20 woman at the side of the road, who did that shooting?
21 A. Adolf.
22 MR. NICE: Your Honour, this witness, I
23 think, has -- Your Honour, it hasn't been possible, for
24 reasons of the substitution of witnesses, I think, for
25 this witness to go through, in advance, the two lists
1 of names. May I ask, and I hope it won't take a lot of
2 time, that he can have those exhibits in front of him,
3 and he can do the exercise in our presence. I see
4 that's acceptable to Mr. Londrovic.
5 While the exhibits are being produced, I'll
6 explain the position to the witness.
7 Witness E, you're going to be shown some
8 lists of names, a longer list and then a shorter list.
9 I want you just -- don't worry about what the lists
10 are. Just look at the names, and if you come to a name
11 that you recognise, tell us, and I shall then ask you
12 whether you knew what happened to the man.
13 Perhaps you could put them on the ELMO,
14 please, on the ELMO.
15 So take your time. It's a burden for you to
16 do it in the presence of everyone else, but don't be
17 alarmed. If you see a name that you recognise, just
18 tell us, and then I'll ask you a supplementary
20 Q. Tell us the name.
21 A. Glavocevic.
22 Q. Stipo Glavocevic, what do you know about
23 him? What, if anything, do you know of his fate, of
24 what happened to him?
25 A. I don't know anything about him. I heard
1 that he was killed. I just heard it from -- I can only
2 confirm what I saw with my own eyes, what I saw with my
3 own eyes, not through somebody else's eyes, and I know
4 this --
5 Q. Witness E, we understand that, and it's very
6 helpful of you to be precise. But you're allowed to
7 tell us, in relation to the names on this list, what
8 you have heard about them.
9 So you heard of Stipo Glavocevic, that he was
10 killed. Now, do you know anything about the other
11 three names on that list? If not, we'll turn to the
12 next sheet.
13 A. I know Stipo Glavocevic and I know Suad
15 Q. What can you tell us about him? Do you know
16 what happened to him, or had you heard what happened to
18 A. I heard about it, but I wouldn't like to say
19 it. I would prefer to just say what I saw with my own
21 Q. Well, as I've explained to you, you're
22 allowed to tell us what you had heard, and perhaps you
23 would tell us what you had heard about him.
24 A. I heard that Stipo Glavocevic arrived at Luka
25 with his ears and nose cut off, and Adolf asked around
1 to other detainees to kill him and nobody wanted to,
2 and then he killed him. I heard the same about Suad
3 Hadzic, that he was killed in the health centre.
4 So those were the stories. But I did not see
5 it, so I cannot say that it was so, so I would prefer
6 not to.
7 MR. NICE: Your Honour, we know that we are
8 doing this at the request of the Defence, and I hope
9 I've set the witness's mind at rest that he can tell us
10 what he has heard.
11 Q. Perhaps you would have a look at the next
12 sheet, please. If you would cast your eyes down this
13 list of names, and if you see a name that you know
14 something about, let us know.
15 A. I don't know anyone among these.
16 Q. Next sheet, please.
17 A. Suljo Pezerovic, he was also killed at Luka.
18 Q. Is that something you heard or something that
19 you knew about directly?
20 A. I heard about it.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 A. We heard about it when people came back from
23 the camp.
24 Q. Nobody else on that page?
25 A. None, no one else.
1 Q. Next sheet.
2 A. Redenica.
3 Q. First name Rahim?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What did you know of him?
6 A. I also heard that he was killed too, again
7 only heard and nothing more.
8 Q. Whereabouts did you hear that he was killed?
9 A. They said that he was killed in Es.
10 Q. Thank you. Anybody else on that page that
11 you recognise?
12 A. No.
13 Q. The next sheet, I think the last on this
14 longer list, a few names here.
15 A. No.
16 Q. If you would very kindly look at another list
17 which is rather shorter, tell us if there are any there
18 whose names you recognise.
19 A. Ahmet Hodzic, called Papa.
20 Q. Yes. We can take this very briefly because
21 we've heard a lot about him. What did you hear about
23 A. I heard that he was killed. That is what I
24 heard from those who were exchanged, and they told it.
25 They told a lot about him, the most.
1 Q. Any other names on that page?
2 A. No.
3 Q. The next sheet, please.
4 A. Kibe Becirevic.
5 Q. That's number 16, yes. What can you tell us
6 about him?
7 A. I also heard that he was killed.
8 Q. Whereabouts was he killed?
9 A. As according to them, he was killed in some
10 bowling lanes. I don't know. This is what they were
11 saying, so this is the story that I heard.
12 Q. Any other names?
13 A. No.
14 Q. The last sheet, please. A few more names.
15 A. Osman Vatic was an attorney.
16 Q. Did you hear what happened to him?
17 A. For a long time, I did not hear, but then
18 those who came, who were exchanged, came and said that
19 he had been killed.
20 Q. Any other names on that page?
21 A. No, I don't know anyone else.
22 MR. NICE: That concludes my examination of
23 this witness.
24 I know that the Court will not be concluding
25 his evidence today. He may need to be reminded that,
1 of course, he's not able to contact the Prosecution at
2 this stage.
3 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Witness E, for
4 reasons which must have been explained to you or which
5 will be, you cannot be questioned this afternoon by
6 Goran Jelisic's attorneys. You have to remain
7 tonight. We regret that, because we know that
8 represents great sacrifice to you, and I would like to
9 take advantage of this time to thank you for having
10 come here.
11 Do not contact anybody, not anyone in the
12 Defence or the Prosecution. Remain in your hotel or
13 visit The Hague.
14 You remain under protective measures, and the
15 Witness and Victims Unit will take care of you.
16 Tomorrow morning, I must tell you that we
17 will resume at 9.00, and, at that time, you will be
18 asked questions by the Defence and then possibly some
19 further questions by the Prosecutor, after which you
20 will have completed your assignment. We're going to
21 have you escorted out of the courtroom.
22 Once the witness has left, perhaps we can
23 deal with the report, because I think we've had the
24 time to talk about it, and we can further discuss it in
25 order to save some time.
1 We will close the blinds so that nobody can
2 see your face or your features as you leave the
4 [The witness withdrew]
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice,
7 Mr. Londrovic, we have reviewed the report,
8 specifically, paragraph 9 or, rather, chapter 9, which
9 must also relate to the next-to-the-last paragraph of
10 chapter 11.
11 Paragraph 9, let me remind you for those who
12 don't have it in front of them, it's called, "The
13 Demolition," and it says, "I frequently observed
14 polygon-shaped sectors in the shapes of the Bosnian
15 mosques, but I've never noticed any of this type of
16 structure in non-religious buildings."
17 Under 11, which is the final summary of the
18 report, not counting the annexes, in the
19 next-to-the-last paragraph, he's more categorical. He
20 says, "One part --" the expert is more categorical, and
21 he says, "One part of those stones came from the
22 demolition of a mosque."
23 What we need to know is whether we need to
24 bring the Australian expert in to the court in respect
25 of this chapter 9. Perhaps the following position
1 could be taken: Either the Prosecutor decides not to
2 use chapter 9, as it stands, or the expert could change
3 his opinions. I'm not here to ask him to do so, but if
4 necessary, we'll have to call in the Australian expert,
5 who can then be subject to a cross-examination on
6 chapter 9. It seems to me, though, in agreement with
7 my colleagues, that's what we might do. That's the
8 only solution we could have, unless we set up a
9 video-link conference. But despite any pleasure that
10 our registrar would have about going to Australia, he's
11 gone to Zagreb, but I don't think that would be very
12 good for the finances of the Tribunal.
13 For that reason, I turn both to the Defence
14 and to the Prosecution. Could you reach an agreement?
15 Mr. Nice, you are the one who has brought in
16 this evaluation.
17 MR. NICE: The reason I raise it at this
18 stage was because Mr. Greaves had indicated to me that
19 objection was taken not to the factual findings of the
20 expert, and indeed it would be surprising if the expert
21 was making up what he describes there, but to his
23 If you would be good enough to turn to the
24 photographs, which you may not have them in the French
25 version, let me just check -- I see you don't have the
1 photographs, but you may have them in the English
2 version. In any event, I can make mine available
3 comparatively swiftly. There are two photographs
4 reflecting what he found.
5 JUDGE RIAD: I have the English version, and,
6 incidentally, page 10 is missing, which is a crucial
8 MR. NICE: Yes. It's only missing in Your
9 Honour's copy. I'm sorry about that. I don't know how
10 that came about, and I know that Your Honour will have
11 been able to read the version in French of page 10, and
12 it's a photocopying error for which I apologise.
13 JUDGE RIAD: If you have it, it's all right.
14 MR. NICE: Does the English version have the
15 photographs attached to it?
16 JUDGE RIAD: Yes, it has.
17 MR. NICE: Photographs 10 and 12 are the --
18 photograph 10 --
19 JUDGE RIAD: We have got photo 2. Wait a
21 MR. NICE: Photograph 10 is the piece of
22 masonry with the obtuse angle, 145 degrees, from which
23 the witness draws a certain inference, and photograph
24 12 is the tombstone inscribed in Arabic.
25 Now, if the Court would be good enough to go
1 back to paragraph or chapter 9, we can partition out
2 what he says into factual findings and expert opinion.
3 As I understand it, the Defence objection is taken to
4 the ability of this witness to speak as an expert.
5 His factual findings start off, at the
6 beginning of chapter 9, with the things that he found,
7 and that's a factual finding; the five main components
8 of the rubble; the bricks in their thousands; the
9 tiles; the broken cement blocks; the dressed masonry
10 blocks, and the clay. He then goes on to say that the
11 dressed masonry blocks indicate that at least some of
12 the demolition rubble comes from demolished mosque or
13 mosques. He bases this on the conclusion about the
14 angles "we measured on the faces of the dressed blocks,
15 photograph 10", saying that precise measurement of the
16 angles is not possible, but approximately-recorded
17 estimates done in the field were 145 degrees. He then
18 says, "If the true angles were, in fact, 144 degrees,
19 then the blocks could have come from a ten-sided
20 polygonal structure." That paragraph contains
21 something in the nature of a conclusion in the first
22 sentence and, indeed, an explanation from the
23 conclusion in the second, but the balance of it is a
24 factual finding.
25 The next paragraph, where he says he has
1 frequently seen polygonal structures forming minarets
2 of mosques in Bosnia, but has never seen such polygonal
3 structures in secular architecture, is also factual.
4 It speaks of his experience, as does the following
5 paragraph which deals with the finding of bricks,
6 similar to the type described, cemented to the inside
7 of a demolished minaret.
8 What follows thereafter is his observations
9 and conclusions, which also extends to the conclusion
10 about photograph 12.
11 If my understanding of the Defence objection,
12 outlined by Mr. Greaves before he fell sick, is
13 correct, then the objection is to the conclusion but
14 not to the factual findings.
15 I think that it would not be a justifiable
16 expenditure of money to call this witness from
17 Australia to give, by way of a conclusion, what is
18 little more, it may be thought, than a practical or
19 common-sense conclusion that many people could draw
20 from the factual findings that he makes. Accordingly,
21 providing the facts go in, that is, the material that
22 he found, along with the measurement of the angles and
23 a reflection of his own experience, then I'm happy not
24 to have read out, as part of the fundamental record of
25 this case, his conclusions.
1 But if it's being challenged that he found
2 the things that he said he found, or that indeed his
3 experience in relation to such commonplace events as he
4 describes thereafter was as it is, then it might be
5 necessary for him to be called, for it is quite
6 important to know what items were found included in the
7 rubble that covered this mass grave.
8 Now, of course, Mr. Londrovic may well have
9 been allocating this part of an argument on exclusion
10 to Mr. Greaves and may not, for all I know, have
11 discussed the basis of their objection in detail, and I
12 understand the difficulties of communication that he
13 and Mr. Greaves have. But I was certainly told that
14 there was objection to the expertise of the witness. I
15 was not told that there was any objection to his
16 factual findings.
17 So that's as far as I can take it.
18 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Londrovic?
19 MR. LONDROVIC: Your Honours, my learned
20 colleague, Michael Greaves, offered a compromise to the
21 Prosecution. If they were to omit paragraph 9, the
22 expert would not be required to come here. However, if
23 they decline to do so, I see no other way but to call
24 the witness and have him cross-examined here.
25 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Which means
1 that you really don't agree with anything. Let's not
2 try to hide the facts as they are. Let's be clear.
3 We're talking about chapter 9 here, and it's the
4 important one. I do not think -- well, at the very
5 most, we could have asked the expert to come to speak
6 about his conclusions. But if one reads it carefully,
7 it says that part of the stones came from the
8 demolition of mosques, and he is affirmative there, but
9 he also said this in chapter 9.
10 Are you prepared to give up chapter 9 of the
11 report, Mr. Nice?
12 MR. NICE: I'm certainly not at present
13 prepared to give up chapter 9 in its entirety, because,
14 as I have indicated, partitioning out facts from
15 conclusion of the facts should be noncontentious, in my
16 submission, and may be of value to the Chamber, using
17 its own powers of deduction and sense, without the need
18 for any expertise or purported expertise.
19 It may be that I can produce evidence from
20 the OTP investigators who accompanied this field
21 inspection of the finding of the polygonal structures
22 and the Arabic-inscribed tombstone that will substitute
23 for the findings of this witness. But nevertheless, it
24 would be sensible, frankly, if the factual findings are
25 not truly in dispute, for them to go before you,
1 unchallenged, but without any expression of opinion.
2 That's the compromise I'm happy to make. I'm
3 not in the position to bargain pieces of evidence in or
4 out; that's not my function here. I am here to ensure
5 that the procedures aren't overwasteful.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] What is factual
8 and what isn't? I think that's the problem; that's the
9 question. I understand, and my colleagues have
10 suggested that I reach the same conclusion, but I would
11 like you to explain what is factual and what isn't,
12 because what the Defence is challenging is in fact what
13 is factual.
14 The masonry blocks -- look at page 12. The
15 masonry blocks which were dressed at least show that
16 some of these stones come from the demolition of one or
17 several mosques. I believe that you consider that this
18 is factual; is that correct, Mr. Nice?
19 MR. NICE: I think, to be strictly accurate,
20 the factual parts, as I indicated a little earlier, are
21 what he found, and indeed the measurements, the angular
22 measurements of what he found, and also factual is his
23 saying, "I have frequently seen polygonal structures
24 forming minarets of mosques but have never seen
25 polygonal structures in secular architecture." That is
1 factual. Similarly, his saying that he's seen bricks
2 of the type described in mosques is factual, but the
3 balance is, I think, inference, deduction, or opinion.
4 So I would wish him to able to say what he
5 found and what his experience was and then leave
6 deductions, of course, for the Court.
7 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice, you
8 consider that he is mentioning or he is referring to
9 where these stones would come from; that's factual, or
10 that's a matter of opinion?
11 MR. NICE: That's a matter of opinion.
12 JUDGE RIAD: A matter of opinion?
13 MR. NICE: Well, it's a fine distinction, but
14 it's a proper distinction to say, "I have seen bricks
15 like this in mosques. I find bricks like this in the
17 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] This is
19 MR. NICE: Both of those observations are
20 factual. It would be for the Tribunal of fact, in
21 absence of expert opinion, to say, "Those two pieces of
22 evidence satisfy us that the bricks in the ground came
23 from a mosque."
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 MR. LONDROVIC: [Interpretation] I do beg your
1 pardon, Your Honours, but before I conclude --
2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We have not
3 finished with the discussion. Just a moment. Excuse
4 me. Excuse me. Let me first give the floor to Judge
6 MR. LONDROVIC: I realise that this is not
7 the end, but if I may, perhaps it will be of some help
8 to my learned friend.
9 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Excuse me. I
10 would first like Judge Rodrigues to be able to ask his
11 questions, if you don't mind. Thank you.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I would
13 like to address my question to Mr. Londrovic. I am on
14 page 12 of the report. I don't know whether the
15 various versions correspond in terms of the pagination,
16 but in any case, paragraph 9, which is called
17 "Demolition Stones," in paragraph 3 of that, there is
18 a description of -- and I think we all agree with that
19 when we say that's a fact. And afterwards, in
20 paragraph -- let me see -- paragraphs 5 and 6, one also
21 finds a description which is totally factual. There is
22 no opinion given there. That is paragraphs 5 and 6.
23 They refer to cement blocks and masonry
24 blocks. I believe there is no opinion; this is simply
25 factual. Is the Defence also contesting this
1 description of the witness?
2 MR. LONDROVIC: Your Honours, I now find
3 myself in a very embarrassing situation, because I
4 received the B/C/S version of this report about an hour
5 ago; there are no photographs here. I did manage to
6 find what you have been referring to, Your Honour, but
7 our principle objection is -- and I really do not
8 understand the insistence on this part, because
9 Mr. Jelisic is not charged with the demolition of
10 mosques. Under Count 1, the period covered by Count 1
11 is May 1992. At that time, the mosques in Brcko were
12 still standing up. And finally, Mr. Jelisic certainly
13 was not the one who demolished them.
14 The principal objection of the Defence to
15 this document is that this expert is not an expert on
16 building materials. As far as I could see, he is an
17 anthropologist. And he nevertheless draws certain
18 conclusions, makes certain conclusions about the types
19 of building materials he found in that mass grave.
20 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you,
21 Mr. Londrovic. Was that the comment that you wanted to
23 MR. LONDROVIC: Yes. And may I add only one
24 thing: I'm sorry, the Defence are constantly being
25 asked to yield in to the Prosecution, but we have been
1 doing it really as much as we could, and we were also
2 proposing to the Prosecution methods whereby we could
3 do this much more expediently. However, we were not
4 met with the understanding by the Prosecution, and I
5 think that most probably on Monday, or at a later
6 stage, I will also make certain objections regarding
7 the work of the gentleman from the Prosecution, because
8 we do have an agreement on facts, and as far as I could
9 see, in the examination-in-chief, they're beginning to
10 violate that agreement on the procedure. But if they
11 continue doing so, then we shall object to the methods
12 used by the Prosecution, and it will be up to Their
13 Honours to decide whether the Defence is right or
15 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] This kind of
16 announcement, if you have something to say, let's take
17 advantage of the time that was given to the Defence to
18 make its comment, but not to wait until next Monday.
19 That seems a little strange to me, but next Monday, I
20 can tell you right now, I'm going to have some things
21 to say about what you say. Just say it. Just say it.
22 But that isn't --
23 MR. LONDROVIC: Well, you see, I'm expecting
24 the Prosecution to behave like gentlemen. They know
25 what it says on the agreement on facts, and I know that
1 the Prosecutors in the West are gentlemen, even though
2 I do not have much experience. My --
3 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I cannot accept
4 this type of remark. I would like that remark to be
5 withdrawn. Up to this point, if, here, there have been
6 any people who are qualified to make comments, whether
7 lawyers or legal specialists are acting as gentlemen,
8 that is for the Judges to do so. At this point I do
9 not allow you to make comments of this nature.
10 Today, this is the first time that you're
11 speaking, and I do not authorise you to make that type
12 of judgement; only the Judges can say it, what point
13 this or that legal specialist, whether that specialist
14 from the Prosecution or the Defence is in contempt of
15 the Tribunal. I do not accept that, and I ask that
16 that comment be withdrawn. Do you withdraw it, or do
17 you not?
18 MR. LONDROVIC: I withdraw it. No problem.
19 I apologise if I offended the Court in this manner.
20 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Well, we won't
21 talk about that any more. Let's go back to the
22 report. I would like to reach an agreement here.
23 Possibly -- let me turn to Mr. Nice. Might
24 it be possible that with the Defence, you could try,
25 starting with Judge Rodrigues's comments, that is, up
1 to the paragraph which speaks about mixed clay, that
2 is, before the dressed masonry blocks and going to the
3 end of paragraph 10, and including part of the stones
4 came from the demolition of mosques, which we find in
5 the summary, could you reach some type of wording about
6 which you could call the Australian expert to ask
7 whether he would agree with a certain type of redacting
8 in order to make a distinction between what is factual
9 and what is not, that is, to establish a criterion for
11 As regards what is factual, these are the
12 angles, the 145-degree angles. What is factual is his
13 comment regarding the polygonal structure in the
14 architecture of the minarets, when he said that he
15 frequently saw structures in polygonal form in
17 Mr. Londrovic, he may not be a specialist of
18 mosques, but he is an anthropologist, and I point out
19 to you, Mr. Londrovic, that an anthropologist is a
20 category of scientists who carry out what would be
21 called anthropology, that is, the science of
22 civilisations. And in the science of civilisations and
23 their origins, there are comments made about the
25 But might we find some way of writing this
1 which would not be one that you would substitute for
2 that of the expert? Only the expert can do his own
3 work, but you might telephone him and ask him whether
4 he might be prepared to nuance his comments, and that
5 would permit you to reach an agreement between the
6 Prosecution and the Defence.
7 That would be gentlemanly, Mr. Londrovic,
8 that is, to reach a consensus. But, Mr. Londrovic, if
9 the Australian expert must be brought in, we will do
10 so. But the Judges in this Trial Chamber -- and I said
11 it the first day -- their first concern is to ensure
12 that this trial is completed within a reasonable amount
13 of time, and I suppose that is in the interest, as
14 well, of your client, that is, the accused. Therefore,
15 that is what we are seeking to achieve.
16 Mr. Nice, do you think that you could, with
17 Mr. Londrovic and Mr. Greaves, speak with one another
18 and see what can be changed on the basis of the
19 criteria set by Judges Rodrigues and Riad, that is, the
20 difference between what is only factual, and, of
21 course, to submit this to the Australian expert.
22 If there is no agreement, Mr. Londrovic, I
23 can reassure you immediately, we will have the
24 Australian expert brought in. But you should know that
25 the Tribunal's budget can deal with that; that's not
1 the issue. But it's not only a question of money; it's
2 also a question of demonstrating that in this Tribunal,
3 one can reach agreements. Not everything has to be
4 done in the form of examinations-in-chief and
5 cross-examinations. These are very ponderous
6 procedures. But if nobody wants to -- it is not the
7 Judge speaking to you. I don't come from the same
8 system as you do, and therefore we will bring in the
9 Australian expert. I want that to be very clear. The
10 Judges will call in the Australian expert if that is
11 necessary, but we're trying to see if we can find
12 another solution.
13 Mr. Prosecutor, can you try, on the basis of
14 the distinction which I have just made, to do what I
16 MR. NICE: Indeed, that's what I hoped from
17 the beginning I could achieve, once I discovered that
18 there was an objection to the alleged expertise
19 expressed in the report. Maybe it will be easier for
20 me to accomplish this with Mr. Greaves tomorrow. I'll
21 do my best.
22 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Fourmy, you
23 can participate in this discussion. It doesn't seem
24 difficult to ask the expert to modify his report,
25 because the first one concerned, he, himself, can find
1 it appropriate to nuance an opinion that he gave,
2 especially since that appears in his report. And I
3 could say that I am mindful of the fact that I have
4 brought in an opinion here, and I am prepared to
5 withdraw this opinion; I don't think this is completely
6 impossible. But if not, I invite you to try to come to
7 an agreement. If there is no agreement, well, then, I
8 believe we will bring in the Australian expert.
9 Mr. Londrovic? No further comments?
10 MR. LONDROVIC: Your Honours, the Defence
11 will do its utmost to reach a compromise with the
12 Prosecutor's office if that is at all possible. Thank
14 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 The Court stands adjourned. We will resume
16 tomorrow at 9.00.
17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
18 5.20 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,
19 the 3rd day of September, 1999,
20 at 9.00 a.m.