1 Friday, 3rd September, 1999
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.10 a.m.
4 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Please be
6 Mr. Registrar, have the accused brought in,
8 [The accused entered court]
9 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Do the
10 interpreters hear me? Good morning. Good morning to
12 Starting out with Mr. Greaves, are you better
13 now, Mr. Greaves; almost completely? I hope it's not
14 your ears that are having a problem this morning. I am
15 very sorry to bring you back into the world of everyday
16 life, which is this trial. Do you feel better now,
17 Mr. Greaves?
18 MR. GREAVES: Not perfect, but I'm happy to
19 continue, thank you, and I accept Your Honours'
20 apologies for returning me to the land of reality.
21 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Very well.
22 Since everybody is in good health now, at least I
23 assume so, we can continue.
24 I suggest that we resume with the
25 cross-examination of Witness G. That is the witness
1 who was being examined by Mr. Greaves when he said that
2 he could not continue.
3 Mr. Registrar, is the witness available?
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] The registrar
6 is reminding me that it is Witness D. Thank you.
7 [The witness entered court]
8 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Witness D, you
9 are back now. Let me remind you that you are still
10 under protective measures. Try to relax. Be calm, be
11 peaceful. You are being asked questions by the
12 Defence, and I would also remind you that you are still
13 under oath.
14 Mr. Greaves, would you resume, please, at the
15 point where you were forced to leave off yesterday.
16 WITNESS: WITNESS D (Resumed)
17 Cross-examined by Mr. Greaves:
18 [Witness answers through interpreter]
19 Q. Witness D, I would like to ask you, please,
20 about a description that you gave of the man you
21 described as Goran Jelisic, Adolf.
22 Is this right, that when you spoke to the
23 Office of the Prosecutor in 1995, you described him as
24 someone with an average build, with a very high
25 forehead; do you recall giving that description?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You went on to describe him, his height and
3 his being clean shaven, and you described him as being
4 about 35 years old. Do you remember that?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. That is, 35 years old in 1992?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. So the person you described as being 35 then
9 would be about 42 now, seven years later?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. I want to ask you now, please, about the
12 murder of Stipo Glavocevic and the description which
13 you give of it.
14 Can you help us with this, please: When
15 describing that incident to the Office of the
16 Prosecutor, you described him as having been brought in
17 and beaten in your presence, but when making a
18 statement to the authorities of Bosnia-Herzegovina, you
19 made no such mention of a beating. Can you explain why
20 you didn't mention that to the authorities in
21 Bosnia-Herzegovina some three years before?
22 A. No.
23 Q. According to you, it was a Serb guard,
24 Serbian guard, who took Stipo Glavocevic out?
25 A. Yes, with Goran and Kosta Simonovic.
1 Q. It was a rifle shot which you heard, a loud
3 A. No. Silencer.
4 Q. As if from a rifle as opposed to any other
5 sort of weapon; is that right?
6 A. No. What I heard was a shot fired from a
7 pistol with a silencer.
8 Q. What I want to ask you now is this: Again,
9 when making your statement to the authorities of
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina in November 1992, you made no
11 mention whatever of hearing a rifle shot, or a shot, or
12 a silenced shot of any kind. Can you explain the
13 difference between your account to the Office of the
14 Prosecutor and to the Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities,
15 Mr. D?
16 A. No.
17 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Greaves, I
18 believe that the witness has made several statements
19 about what he considers to be the difference between
20 the statements that have been produced. Perhaps you
21 should try to move forward in another way than asking
22 what is always a difference. You showed that there was
23 a difference. It's in the transcript. The Judges have
24 taken cognisance of that. I think that he's explained
25 and he's answered you on that point.
1 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, there will be one
2 other point which I want to raise which is an important
3 one. It's not just at the moment, but I'll come to it,
4 and you will understand why it is important, I think,
5 in due course.
6 Q. I want to ask you now, please, Mr. D, about
7 Kosta Simonovic. Would you describe that person to us,
9 A. I don't know.
10 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Excuse me for
11 interrupting again, but that individual, I believe, was
12 not really very much concerned with in the examination
13 in chief. Perhaps we could move forward.
14 What point do you want to question the
15 witness about? Do you plan to do this for a long time
16 still? Would you explain to the Trial Chamber, what it
17 is that you're trying to do?
18 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, he's named an
19 individual. That's an individual about whom you're
20 going to hear quite often in the course of this case.
21 I want to see if this person is a reliable witness,
22 whether he can recall properly whether he's got the
23 right person or not, so in order to --
24 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Very well.
25 MR. GREAVES: -- do that, we have to have a
1 description from him.
2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Very well. All
3 right, you may proceed.
4 MR. GREAVES:
5 Q. I'm sorry, Mr. D. Would you like me to
6 repeat the question to you?
7 A. Yes, please.
8 Q. Mr. D, I want to ask you about Kosta
9 Simonovic, and you said, I think, that you weren't able
10 to describe him.
11 A. Right now, I am not in a position to.
12 Q. How many times did you see him whilst you
13 were at Luka?
14 A. I saw him every day.
15 Q. But you cannot now recall what he looked like
16 or any other description of him at all?
17 A. I could perhaps a little bit.
18 Q. Help us with what you can, please, Mr. D.
19 A. He was between 160 and 170 centimetres tall.
20 He was changing his uniform; sometimes police,
21 sometimes military uniforms. Then he also was carrying
22 a rifle and a baton.
23 Q. And how old was he?
24 A. Somewhere between 25 and 30.
25 Q. I want to ask you now, please, about your
1 being interrogated at the camp. In all, how many
2 interrogations were conducted with you?
3 A. Three times.
4 Q. And were there, to your knowledge, other
5 detainees interrogated?
6 A. Yes, there were.
7 Q. Did the interrogation start on the 8th of
9 A. No.
10 Q. When did they start then?
11 A. On the 9th or 10th.
12 Q. And was everybody interrogated?
13 A. Yes, they were.
14 Q. What I want to ask you is this, please,
15 Mr. D: When you made your statement to the
16 Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities, you told them that a
17 number of interrogations took place on the 8th of May.
18 Does that refresh your memory?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Let me refresh you further. What you've said
21 was they interrogated all persons and subsequently let
22 them go home. Do you recall that now?
23 A. They didn't let anybody go home.
24 Q. So when you told the BiH authorities that
25 people had been released, that was not correct?
1 A. They did not let anybody go. One they
2 released, but then they brought him back to Luka
4 Q. Well, let's just clarify this. The truth of
5 the matter is that on the 8th of May, there were people
6 who were released; some may have been brought back at a
7 later date. Is that it?
8 A. Only one.
9 Q. Well, what I want to put to you is this:
10 What you told the Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities was
11 that a number of prisoners were released without
12 interrogation, including people that you knew: Sefko
13 Osmic, Suljo and Suad Osmanovic, and two elderly men
14 whom you did not know. So what you just told Their
15 Honours wasn't correct; isn't that right?
16 A. They were released on the 9th of May.
17 Q. As to interrogations of other detainees,
18 Mr. D, did you become aware, through speaking to any of
19 them, as to what the purpose of those interrogations
21 A. No.
22 Q. So there was no discussion at all amongst the
23 prisoners about them having gone for interrogation and
24 come back? They didn't say anything at all about that?
25 A. No.
1 Q. When people were released, were they given
3 A. The one who was released did get a pass, and
4 those who were released on the 9th of May, I'm not sure
5 whether they received passes.
6 Q. How many people would you say were released
7 on the 9th of May?
8 A. Four or five.
9 Q. Is this correct, that throughout your stay at
10 Luka, there were detainees coming into the camp and
11 detainees going out of the camp?
12 A. They were taking them somewhere; I don't know
13 where. They were coming and they were being taken
14 away, but I don't know where.
15 Q. I'd like to turn now, please, to the beating
16 of Naza Bukvic, please.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. I would like to ask you, please, is this
19 right, that the focus of their interest in her was the
20 whereabouts of her brother?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And that was absolutely central to what was
23 going on; they were demanding to know where he was.
24 And was that because he was involved in some sort of
25 military activity, or part of the resistance movement,
1 or what?
2 A. He was a former policeman in
3 Bosnia-Herzegovina. He was a police officer.
4 Q. And was there anything else at all that
5 formed the background to that beating and killing, or
6 was that the only reason at all?
7 A. The only reason was the fact that the brother
8 was in the police force.
9 Q. I'd like to turn now, please, if we may, to
10 Jasce Curmurovic.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. It's right that you told the Office of the
13 Prosecutor about that killing, but you made no mention
14 at all of having been a witness to that, or that
15 incident, to the Bosnia-Herzegovinian authorities; do
16 you accept that?
17 A. He was taken out on the 8th of May, in the
18 afternoon, and killed by Goran.
19 Q. Later in your stay, were you aware of people
20 being released?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Can you help us, please, about the man -- a
23 man called Pudic? Was he someone you saw at the camp?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Can you describe that man to us?
1 A. He was shortish and weighed about 95 kilos.
2 He lived --
3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear
4 the name of the place.
5 MR. GREAVES:
6 Q. You were personally interrogated on three
7 separate occasions?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. The first occasion, was that conducted by
10 four different people who were in a room with you?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And when you went for your first
13 interrogation, was there someone else there, another
15 A. Yes, there was.
16 Q. Did you know that detainee?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Can I refresh your memory from what you told
19 the BiH authorities: Was it the son of somebody that
20 you knew, Zekerija Tursunovic?
21 A. I was there, but I was not in the room when
22 they were interrogating the son of Zekerija Tursunovic.
23 Q. I'm not suggesting that you were there during
24 his interrogation but that he was there when you were
25 brought in for interrogation. Would that be correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. The first interrogation that was conducted
3 with you, Mr. D, again, the focus of that
4 interrogation, would this be right, that those people
5 wanted to know about extremist Muslims?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Who amongst the Muslim population possessed
8 guns and weapons?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And you were able to tell them about a number
11 of named individuals; is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. One of whom, at least, was a former member or
14 a reserve member of the police force?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. They also wanted to know if you could
17 identify those who were officials or members of the
18 SDA; is that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And you were able to tell them about one
21 particular individual who had been a treasurer in the
22 local community before all this happened?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Is this also right, that they also focused
25 upon anybody who might belong to what were described as
1 the Green Berets, a particular military formation?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And again, those were essentially the only or
4 the main topics upon which you were interrogated on
5 that occasion?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you know who your principal interrogator
8 was on that occasion?
9 A. The first time, it was Kosta Simonovic.
10 Q. On your second interrogation, is this
11 correct, you were asked about a particular individual
12 who had been a former police inspector, and you were
13 told that you could save your life if you informed on
14 his whereabouts?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You were again questioned about the
17 identities of what were described as extremist Muslims?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Again, I won't mention the name unless I need
20 to refresh your memory. They were interested in
21 another particular family; is that right?
22 A. Two families.
23 Q. Two families. Why were they particularly
24 interested in these two families? Was that explained
25 to you?
1 A. They were with the SDA.
2 Q. Then in respect of your third interrogation,
3 would this be correct, that the focus of the interview
4 was who was in the HOS and where they were?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Again, further questioning about those who
7 might belong to the formation called the Green Berets.
8 Was your final interrogation on the 14th of
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. That was conducted by, I think, a man called
12 Dragan Zivkovic. Is that correct?
13 A. Yes, an inspector of the former police. That
14 is what he was, with the Ministry of the Interior.
15 Q. He was a regular interrogator at the camp; is
16 that right?
17 A. He was the last interrogator. They were
18 taken then to another office to be interrogated by
20 Q. Again, you were taken over the same ground
21 that you had been over with the other interrogators,
22 and I won't repeat what those subjects were. But all
23 those subjects which you had been questioned about
24 before, those were examined again by this individual?
25 A. He interrogated me about the same things as
1 Goran and Kosta previously.
2 Q. I want to turn now to the list of people
3 which you were asked about by my learned friend and
4 just see if you can fill in any further details.
5 You told us about a man called Jukic, and you
6 described him as having been killed at home. From whom
7 did you hear that information?
8 A. I heard that from a Serb.
9 Q. Can you remember when it was that you heard
10 that information?
11 A. Sometime in late May.
12 Q. Did the Serb who was telling you this, did he
13 give you any more information other than he had been
14 killed at home, such as who had killed him or what the
15 circumstances were?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Then Galib Muranjkovic, he was detained at
18 Luka with you?
19 A. After me.
20 Q. So he wasn't there with you but was
21 subsequently detained after you had been given release?
22 A. Yes. Yes, yes.
23 Q. So you heard from someone else about that
25 A. His brother.
1 Q. His brother. How long after your release did
2 you hear that?
3 A. After I was exchanged, six months later.
4 Q. Six months later. So sometime in November or
5 December 1992, you heard that?
6 A. November.
7 Q. That's all that you know about his fate?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Similarly, somebody called Pezerovic who you
10 believed to have been killed at Luka, again was that
11 after -- were you in the camp with him or was that
12 something that must have happened after you had been
14 A. He was brought to Luka from the hospital, and
15 they killed him after I had been released.
16 Q. From whom did you hear that information?
17 A. From a Serb again.
18 Q. Help us with this: Can you say when it was
19 that you heard that information?
20 A. Late May.
21 Q. Enver Residovic, who you believed had been
22 killed at home, but you don't know any of the
24 A. No. He was killed at home. I know nothing
25 about the circumstances.
1 Q. Again, who told you about that?
2 A. A Serb again.
3 Q. When were you told about it?
4 A. Late May.
5 Q. Then in relation to somebody called
6 Tursunovic, you know that he was killed in his home?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Tursunovic?
9 A. Was it Tursunovic? Suljevic, Hamdija
11 Q. I've written it down as T-U-R-S-U-N-O-V-I-C,
13 A. Oh, Sefket Tursunovic, killed at home.
14 Q. Again, did you know anything more about the
15 circumstances of that?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Concerning his son, again killed at home?
18 A. Sefket's son was killed at home, and Zekerija
19 and his son Nijaz were also at home when they were
20 killed. And Sefket is this Zijad's uncle.
21 Q. Then Ahmet Hodzic, known as Papa, he was a
22 businessman. You heard from someone else that he had
23 been killed in front of the police station?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. From whom did you hear that information?
1 A. A Serb.
2 Q. Husein Kaknjo? Is that correct?
3 A. I don't know what happened to him. Before
4 the retirement, he worked for a company. He was in
5 Brcko during the war, but I don't know what happened to
7 Q. Was he involved in the board of the Islamic
8 Community, to your knowledge?
9 A. Something of sorts, yes. He did hold a post.
10 Q. Ahmet Hodzic, was he involved in local
11 politics as president of the local executive in
13 A. I don't know.
14 Q. I would like to turn, please, to Suljevic,
15 Hamdija. I believe that he was killed at home.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Again, was he someone who was involved with
18 the board of the Islamic Community?
19 A. No, no.
20 Q. Then Sakib Edhemovic, you heard that he was
21 killed in the town somewhere?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Would this be right? I think he was a
24 surgeon. Is that correct?
25 A. Yes. He was a well-known surgeon.
1 Q. A prominent man in the town; would that be
3 A. Yes, prominent.
4 Q. Was he involved in SDA politics, do you know?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Perhaps I should just clarify that. You
7 don't know whether he was or not, or he wasn't involved
8 in politics?
9 A. He wasn't actively involved.
10 Q. Just going back for a moment, as far as
11 Dr. Edhemovic was concerned, when did you hear that he
12 had been killed and from whom?
13 A. I heard that after I was exchanged. He
14 stayed behind me in Brcko, and when I was exchanged, I
15 heard about that.
16 Q. Then Osman Vatic, I think he was a lawyer.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. He was killed in Brcko?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Again, do you know when it was that he was
22 A. I don't know the date, but I think it was in
24 Q. June 1992 or 1993?
25 A. 1992.
1 Q. Finally, is this right? He was a member of
2 the SDA and, I think, also a member of parliament in
4 A. I don't know.
5 Q. I want to ask you about the 14th of May,
6 1992, again, about just one more matter.
7 Did you ever see a guard at the camp with a
8 ponytail? It may have been somebody called Enver Sok.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. How often did you see him?
11 A. A couple of times.
12 Q. Were you aware of him being involved in
13 beatings or any sort of violence towards anybody?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Mr. D, I want to ask you this, please: As
16 far as you are concerned, the man Goran Jelisic was a
17 central character, the most central character, in your
18 stay at Luka; is that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. [Previous interpretation continues] ...
21 according to you?
22 A. Yes, yes. Yes, according to me.
23 Q. The person who featured not just every day
24 but many times every day in your stay at Luka?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. You knew him as Adolf and as Goran Jelisic
2 when you were there?
3 A. Yes. That is how he introduced himself.
4 Q. [Previous interpretation continues] ... you
5 heard threatening to kill balijas, making threats
6 against the Muslims?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Then, please, would you be so kind as to help
9 Their Honours with this? When you made a statement to
10 the authorities in Bosnia-Herzegovina, you mentioned
11 him just three times, and then only as "Adolf". If he
12 was so important, why didn't you make more mention than
13 that of him when you were questioned by the authorities
14 in November 1992?
15 A. I may have mentioned him three times. When I
16 was interrogated in 1992, they did not ask for names
17 and all that; they just took some general notes, and he
18 introduced himself as Goran Jelisic on the 8th of May.
19 Q. As far as that statement was concerned, you
20 never mentioned the name at all of Goran Jelisic; just
22 A. Well, they knew who was meant by that,
23 "Adolf." They knew that when one said "Adolf" that it
24 was Goran Jelisic.
25 Q. Let me just make it absolutely plain. The
1 three matters in connection with which you mentioned
2 him were these: The killing of your brother, the
3 killing of Stipo, and a beating and interrogation of
4 you. Just those three things. What I'm going to
5 suggest to you, Mr. D, is this: That as far as his
6 role at the camp is concerned, the evidence which you
7 have given to this Tribunal is grossly exaggerated. Do
8 you accept that?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: First, with regard to the
12 last question, I think it was a misunderstanding from
13 the accused -- on the witness side.
14 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes, I would
15 like that to be repeated, please.
16 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: Or I can just ask the
17 witness: Is --
18 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I would prefer
19 that the Defence ask the question again. Thank you,
20 Mr. Tochilovsky.
21 Mr. Greaves, I am asking the witness also to
23 Relax, Witness D. All the questions are
24 important, but this one is particularly so, and that is
25 why I'm asking Mr. Greaves to reformulate the question,
1 slowly, giving it in detailed form in respect of his
2 statements before the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina,
3 and then before the Prosecutor, and today under oath.
4 I, myself, was going to ask Witness D:
5 Before the government of Bosnia and Herzegovina, did
6 you take an oath? This is the Presiding Judge speaking
7 to you, asking you that question. Did you take an oath
8 before the government officials of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
9 Mr. Greaves, ask the question very clearly,
10 explain it, and I ask Witness D to concentrate and
11 focus on the question.
12 MR. GREAVES:
13 Q. Witness D, let me put this to you quite
14 clearly. You have given evidence here at the Tribunal
15 about the role which Goran Jelisic, you claim, played
16 at the camp at Luka, and you've described him as being
17 a central character. I suggest to you --
18 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Excuse me,
19 Mr. Greaves. My learned colleague is saying that the
20 answer to my own question was not interpreted and
21 indicated in the transcript.
22 Witness D, you said that you did not take an
23 oath when you made your statement before the government
24 of Bosnia and Herzegovina; is that correct?
25 A. Yes. Yes.
1 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] All right. You
2 didn't take an oath. Thank you, Judge Riad.
3 Mr. Greaves, would you start again, please.
4 MR. GREAVES:
5 Q. Mr. D, the evidence that you've given here at
6 the Tribunal describes the role that you claim Goran
7 Jelisic played at the camp at Luka, and you've
8 identified that as a central role and him being the
9 central character. What I suggest to you is that you
10 have grossly exaggerated, when giving your evidence at
11 this Tribunal, you have grossly exaggerated the role
12 that Goran Jelisic played.
13 A. It is my impression that it was the camp
14 commander, and my authorities slightly added to it when
15 they interrogated me.
16 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] You aren't
17 answering the question. I'm sorry, you're not
18 answering Mr. Greaves' question.
19 A. He was the camp commander.
20 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Greaves is
21 asking you -- and he is entitled to do so -- says that
22 the statements that you made before the Office of the
23 Prosecutor or here are highly exaggerated in respect of
24 the statement that you made to the government of Bosnia
25 and Herzegovina. Do you agree with what Mr. Greaves is
1 saying to you, or do you not agree with what he is
2 saying to you?
3 A. They are not exaggerated.
4 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] That is
5 Mr. Greaves' opinion. Do you agree with Mr. Greaves,
6 or do you not agree with Mr. Greaves?
7 A. I do not agree with him.
8 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] And could you
9 explain why you don't agree with him?
10 A. Because we're talking about two things.
11 Whether ours exaggerated it, that is, whether our
12 authorities exaggerated it when I made my statement to
13 them, or those of the Tribunal. And I want to say that
14 the people from this Tribunal did not exaggerate it,
15 and what they said is correct, and it was exaggerated
16 by our authorities.
17 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Greaves?
18 MR. GREAVES:
19 Q. You may not have taken an oath when making
20 the statement to the authorities in Bosnia-Herzegovina,
21 but you did sign the statement, didn't you?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And you had made a declaration in the
24 following terms, I suggest, at the end of the
25 statement: "Finally, I declare that here I have stated
1 my personal observations and that everything I have
2 said is true and correct, which I shall confirm with my
3 signature, standing prepared to repeat it in court or
4 before an international organisation which might be
5 interested. I have no complaints against the treatment
6 by the officials."
7 What you were telling the authorities of
8 Bosnia-Herzegovina, I suggest, was that this was your
9 clear recollection of events which you had observed.
10 You were confirming the truth of what you had said in
11 your statement to them.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And so, three years later when you make your
14 statement and seven years later when you come to give
15 evidence about it, the position has changed, and it's
16 no longer just three matters that you recall, but all
17 these other ones?
18 A. It's all right.
19 Q. You gave evidence a moment or two ago
20 about --
21 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, just give me a
22 moment, please. Would Your Honour just give me a
23 moment, please?
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Greaves,
1 have you finished, Mr. Greaves? Thank you very much.
2 Before we take a break, I would like to give
3 the floor to Mr. Tochilovsky again. I'm sorry I
4 interrupted you, but I think the point was important.
5 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: Your Honours, just a few
6 very quick questions to Witness D, because the Defence
7 cross-examination, a substantial part of the
8 cross-examination was about interrogations of the
9 witness, and in response to the Defence, the witness
10 mentioned that he was interrogated three times, and he
11 provided the interrogators with some names and
13 Re-examined by Mr. Tochilovsky:
14 Q. I would ask Witness D the following
15 questions. First, Witness D, were you beaten at those
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did Goran Jelisic participate in those
20 A. On the second occasion, during the second
21 interrogation, he was there alone with Monika and her
22 mother, Vera, and during the first one was Kosta
23 Simonovic, and on the third was Dragan Zivkovic and
24 someone else, but I didn't know who that was.
25 Q. Did Goran Jelisic beat you during the
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Very shortly, can you describe the beating by
4 Goran Jelisic? In short.
5 A. He hit me over my head, on the body. He
6 forced me to sign a statement which had not been
7 written down, and then he kept beating me, so I had to
8 do it.
9 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: Your Honours, I have no
10 further questions.
11 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you. Let
12 me turn to my colleagues now.
13 Judge Riad? Please proceed.
14 JUDGE RIAD: Good morning, Witness D. You
15 may recall that at the beginning of your statements
16 yesterday, you mentioned that Goran Jelisic announced
17 that he will kill as many balijas as possible upon his
18 arrival at Luka, if I have caught you rightly. You did
19 not give any precision. Did he announce, for instance,
20 that he would kill men only, or that he would kill
21 those who were fighting, the fighters, or it was a
22 general declaration concerning all the balijas without
23 specification? Do you recall exactly what this
24 declaration was, the declaration of Goran Jelisic?
25 A. He said to kill as many balijas as possible.
1 He did not specify whether there were women, whether
2 there were those who had been fighting. He just said
3 he would kill as many balijas as possible, regardless
4 of whether they were fighters or they had been detained
5 and who were not fighting, but he said that he would
6 kill a lot of balijas.
7 JUDGE RIAD: Without reservation?
8 Do you hear me?
9 A. Yes, I can.
10 JUDGE RIAD: All right. But now, do you
11 recall that some people were spared and some people
12 were chosen?
13 A. There were a few who were spared. The ones
14 who had been brought by Pudic, they were released, but
15 then those two were later killed at their homes:
16 Zekerija Tursunovic and Zijad Tursunovic.
17 JUDGE RIAD: It seems also that there were
18 some differences between the evidence you gave in
19 Bosnia and between your statements here to the
20 Prosecutor's office. What was the purpose of the
21 evidence you gave at Bosnia? What did they want to
22 know from you?
23 A. Just some things about the people who were
24 killed, who were tortured.
25 JUDGE RIAD: They were not mainly interested
1 in Goran Jelisic?
2 A. Yes.
3 JUDGE RIAD: They were? Was it the main
4 reason of your evidence there, the way it is here?
5 A. It was to account for the victims who were
6 killed by Goran and some others, and this is why I gave
7 the statement. It was on those facts that I
9 JUDGE RIAD: You did not say all the facts
10 then, did you? Did you not have time to say all the
11 facts? Or they did not want it?
12 A. They did not ask for all the facts. They
13 just wanted something like bullet points, and they were
14 writing it down; who did what, what did he do with me.
15 And then they put together -- they drafted a statement,
16 and I signed it.
17 JUDGE RIAD: So you were only answering
18 questions there, only answering the questions they
20 A. Yes.
21 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.
22 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you,
23 Judge Riad.
24 Judge Rodrigues? Please proceed, Judge
1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone to his honour,
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me.
4 As regards the statements given to the
5 authorities of Bosnia-Herzegovina, I also have a few
6 questions. Perhaps I'm going to repeat a few that were
7 already asked by my colleague, Judge Riad. I would
8 like for you to go back and speak about the conditions
9 under which you gave that statement. In general, do
10 you remember what the circumstances were? In general
11 terms, could you give us a kind of general framework
12 within which that statement was made?
13 A. This was done hastily. There was shelling
14 going on around, so this was just done sort of like
15 bullet points, and they were then drafting it. It was
16 asked who did they kill, why did they kill; that was
17 very brief. And then when I said that, then they later
18 on added things.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] More
20 specifically now, how much time went by after you left
21 the Luka camp?
22 A. You mean when I went to the free territory?
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The time
24 between the time you left Luka and the time that you
25 made the statements.
1 A. Seven months.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me.
3 I did not get the interpretation -- all right. Seven
5 Who was the individual to whom you made the
6 statement? Was that person a prosecutor, a policeman,
7 an administrator? Who was he? A judge?
8 A. It was the security service.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Perhaps he
10 was a policeman then. A civilian or a policeman?
11 A. A civilian who worked with a policeman.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] A civilian
13 who worked with the police.
14 You have already said something to this
15 effect. This person, did he tell you the
16 following: "You are here in order to explain
17 something." Did he explain to you why you were there?
18 A. Just for me to give them some explanations.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Therefore,
20 you already answered Judge Riad, but you were only
21 answering the questions that they were asking you? Is
22 that how it was or is that not how it was?
23 A. Yes.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Another
25 thing. How many people were present to make
2 A. Two.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] How many
4 people? I'm thinking about people who were there to
5 give statements. There was a line, and were you alone
6 or were there many people who were waiting to give
7 statements? How was it done?
8 A. I don't know. I was alone when I gave the
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] When you
11 signed the statement, did the person who was there, the
12 civilian, did that person read out loud what you had
13 written? Did he ask you whether you agreed? Did he
14 explain what you said after you said it? How did it
16 A. Nothing was read to me. I just signed it.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Therefore,
18 as regards the piece of paper that that civilian wrote,
19 were there already words written on it or was it a
20 blank piece of paper? Was it a type of form, a
21 pre-written form, or was it a blank piece of paper?
22 A. A statement had been written out, and I did
23 not read it, they did not read it, and they said, "This
24 is what came out of your questioning. Please sign."
25 And that's what I did.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] With the
2 policeman or with the civilian, were there any
3 attorneys present who could ask you questions? Were
4 there or were there not?
5 A. No.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think I
7 have no further questions. Thank you, Witness D.
8 Thank you, Mr. President.
9 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you,
10 Judge Riad. Thank you, Judge Rodrigues.
11 Witness D, we are finished.
12 I have no further questions. All the
13 questions were asked by my colleagues. I thank them
14 for having done so.
15 It's difficult to come to The Hague, and the
16 ordeal is over now. We would like to thank you very
17 much for having taken your time to do so and for having
18 used your mental energy to come to relate these painful
19 memories to us. We wish you Godspeed home and a calmer
20 and more serene life. Once again, thank you. Please
21 do not move, because we have to protect you to the
23 It is time to take a 20-minute break, and we
24 will resume at 10.35 for the cross-examination.
25 I see that Mr. Greaves is standing.
1 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, yes.
2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We keep making
3 mistakes. It's the cross-examination of Witness E.
4 But I see that Mr. Greaves is asking for the
5 floor again. Yes, Mr. Greaves.
6 MR. GREAVES: We would invite exhibition of
7 the statement made to the District Court at Tuzla as an
9 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: Your Honours, in this case,
10 we would require both statements, both the OTP
11 statement and the Bosnia-Herzegovina statement,
12 attached as exhibits.
13 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] That seems fine
14 to me. No other comments. We will take all the
15 statements. The Judges will be very interested in
16 seeing them in order to corroborate what was said
17 during the discussions here.
18 All right, Mr. Registrar, will you give a
19 reference number to the three statements. I think
20 there's the one for the tribunal at Tuzla and the two
21 statements at the Office of the Prosecutor. Is that
23 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
25 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] You will do
1 that during the break. You should take a break as
2 well, you deserve one, and we will take a good
3 20-minute break.
4 [The witness withdrew]
5 --- Recess taken at 10.20 a.m.
6 --- On resuming at 10.45 a.m.
7 [The witness entered court]
8 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We will now
9 resume the hearing.
10 Please have the accused brought in.
11 [The accused entered court]
12 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Be seated.
13 I assume that we have the two legal
14 specialists from the Defence team who are both prepared
15 to conduct the cross-examination, but perhaps
16 Mr. Greaves will resume, himself. But it's as you
18 MR. NICE: Your Honour, before Mr. Greaves
19 resumes, may I deal with one issue of an exhibit that
20 should be tidied up? I've explained the position to
21 Mr. Greaves and, indeed, to a legal officer. It
22 relates to the pass that the witness produced, Exhibit
23 24, and for reasons of witness protection and
24 anonymity, the exhibits produced have all been blanked
25 out as to his name. But, of course, that means that
1 you can't be satisfied that it's his pass.
2 So the first thing I've done is had produced
3 the original, which is a document that will be under
4 seal, will be exhibited as 24 bis, and unless my
5 friends wish the witness to look at it specifically in
6 order to identify his name and the fact that it was his
7 pass, then it can probably go in without being further
8 examined by the witness.
9 However, yesterday, when we were looking at
10 the exhibit, there was one part of it that wasn't put
11 on the ELMO which should go on the ELMO and be looked
12 at, and so when the Court has considered 24 bis, which
13 bears the witness's name, I would ask for 24, the one
14 that doesn't bear his name, to go onto the ELMO so that
15 we can see the one passage of the pass that was not
16 looked at yesterday and in respect of which I have two
17 questions to ask.
18 Can we have, please -- it's the very bottom
19 part of the pass. You'll have to put it up a little
20 bit further, please, Mr. Usher. There we are.
21 WITNESS: WITNESS E (Resumed)
22 Examined by Mr. Nice:
23 [Witness answers through interpreter]
24 Q. At the bottom of this pass, Witness E, is
25 there some writing that begins "PS"? Witness E, can
1 you see that writing at the bottom of the pass?
2 A. Yes, I see what is written.
3 Q. Can you read it out for us, please?
4 A. It says "100 per cent checked," and then it's
5 signed by Adolf.
6 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I haven't
7 received a good interpretation in French. There is a
8 nuance here which I think I am missing. "100 per cent
9 interrogated," in my own language, "Adolf," that would
10 mean "Let him go; I really fully interviewed him and he
11 can go." But my translation is that the person in
12 question is 100 per cent reliable. Of course there is
13 a connection between them, but it's not quite the same
14 thing. But I think that this has to be checked.
15 MR. NICE: I think, Your Honour, if I may
16 respectfully say, so --
17 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes.
18 MR. NICE: The word "cist" needs to be
19 translated. The witness -- I don't know that he read
20 that word out, but it may be a word of some
22 Q. What is the word immediately after
23 "100 per cent," please, Witness E?
24 A. "Cist." "Clean." "Guarantee for him.
1 Q. And whose writing was this?
2 A. Adolf's. He wrote it for me.
3 Q. And when you left the camp, as you've told
4 us, did you have to pass through checkpoints?
5 A. I passed through the Serbian line and then
6 through the Muslim line, and I came out into the free
7 territory with this document.
8 Q. Was this pass looked at?
9 A. No, because it was war over at that time, so
10 for me it was either to pass through alive or not,
11 along with my wife and child.
12 Q. Yes. Did you use this pass?
13 A. My wife had this certificate in her purse,
14 and when I came into the free territory, they were
15 taken away from me, it was taken away from me, because
16 they believed that I was part of the fifth column and
17 that I had been sent by them over here.
18 Q. Yes, but before you were with your wife, when
19 you left the camp, when you left Luka, were you able to
20 use this pass to --
21 A. I came in the evening, and then immediately
22 the next morning, I fled.
23 Q. Had you used the pass?
24 A. No. What did I need it for when I went to
25 flee? I didn't use it until it was taken away from me
1 in the free territory.
2 Q. Thank you very much.
3 MR. NICE: Those are the only supplementary
5 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you,
6 Mr. Nice. I still have a translation problem here.
7 Perhaps we could go back to it.
8 The English version says, "100 per cent clean
9 and vouched for," that is, guaranteed. I'm not sure
10 that there's an absolute match between the Serbo-Croat,
11 French, and English versions. I think this is
12 relatively important, because one can interpret the
13 accused's role in the camp in various ways, depending
14 upon whether he is giving a guarantee or whether he
15 simply conducted a 100 per cent interview. So I would
16 like the Serbo-Croat version to be used as the basis
17 for a retranslation which will be definitive.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] In the
20 Serbo-Croat version, we see the word "guarantee."
21 Could the French booth, using what they see on the
22 screen, translate or interpret for me into French or
23 English exactly how that should be translated from the
24 language of the accused at the time of the facts?
25 Would that be possible?
1 THE INTERPRETER: Somebody needs to read it
2 out loud, word for word.
3 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Was I heard?
4 Does the French booth hear me? I see that you're
5 concentrating on the sentence.
6 THE INTERPRETER: It states, "P.S.:
7 100 per cent clean. I guarantee for him. Adolf."
8 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] All right. I
9 think there are no further comments. I will note
10 that. So that for me, as far as I'm concerned, it
11 means "guarantee." I'm assuming that's what it means
12 and then that it's 100 per cent clear. I think that
13 the English version perhaps is a better match with the
14 original than the French. Well, we're not going to
15 speak any further about that. We won't dwell on that
16 any longer. It's clear for me.
17 Mr. Nice, did you want to add something?
18 MR. NICE: Only this, Your Honour, that if --
19 the Court might want to know from the witness whether
20 he can help at all with his understanding of the word
21 "clean," he being there at the time. Because "clean"
22 and "being guaranteed for" are not necessarily
24 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I wanted to
25 know how it should be translated in my own system. In
1 my own system, in fact, we would only ask the witness,
2 but we can't do that.
3 All right, I'm going to ask the witness. You
4 saw other mercy passes, and I know these were very
5 difficult circumstances for you. How should that
6 sentence be interpreted? Would Adolf put the same
7 thing on all the mercy passes? But what did it mean
8 for you, specifically? Could you explain to us exactly
9 what it meant for you?
10 A. I only know that he issued it to me and that
11 he wrote "100 per cent questioned," or "interrogated,"
12 and then he gave it to me to take it home so I can go
13 and feed my wife and child, and I only know that he
14 issued it to me.
15 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] And the line
16 beneath that?
17 THE INTERPRETER: This is the Judge speaking
18 to the French booth.
19 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] All right. I
20 think that we can now move to the cross-examination.
21 Do you agree, Mr. Nice? Thank you very much. Thank
22 you, Witness E.
23 Mr. Greaves, you can now conduct your
24 cross-examination. About how long are you going to
1 MR. GREAVES: Perhaps an hour or an hour and
2 a half.
3 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Very well. All
4 right, you're not taking many risks. When you say an
5 hour, an hour and a half, it's like saying an hour to
6 two hours, but all right; I did say approximately.
7 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, can I just deal
8 with the question of the pass whilst we've just been
9 dealing with it? As I understand it, yesterday
10 afternoon, an exhibit was made of one where the name is
11 expunged, and at the present time, the Tribunal has
12 within its possession two translations: One in
13 English, one in French. Your Honour has challenged the
14 translation, and we've now clarified what the
15 translation of the final line is. The exhibit should
16 be withdrawn and replaced by one which bears that
17 corrected translation, in my submission, and I wonder
18 whether my learned friend could possibly arrange for it
19 to be retyped and resubmitted.
20 MR. NICE: While I'm on my feet, if at all
21 possible, this witness would be able to and I'm sure
22 would like to return home tomorrow morning, if that's
23 possible. He has been here a whole week.
24 MR. GREAVES: I had that very much in mind,
25 that it would be desirable to finish this witness
1 today. It's not desirable to leave witnesses over the
2 weekend, and I will do my, of course, best to ensure
3 that situation is brought about.
4 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Very well. Let
5 me remind you that theoretically we work until 1.30, so
6 let's try to do everything that we can so that
7 Witness E can return home tonight.
8 Mr. Greaves, please proceed.
9 Cross-examined by Mr. Greaves:
10 Q. Mr. E, I would like to ask you first of all,
11 please, as you were asked yesterday about the
12 circumstances of your arrest. But before I do that,
13 can I just ask you to do this, please: If I ask you a
14 question which you do not understand or confuses you,
15 please don't hesitate. Tell me straight away, and I
16 will rephrase it so that it's an easier question for
17 you to deal with. All right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. The request is, don't be shy; if you don't
20 understand, sing out immediately.
21 As far as you, personally, are concerned, can
22 I just ask you a little bit about you? Before the war
23 which broke out in May 1992 in the Brcko district, were
24 you in any way involved in political life? Were you a
25 member of a political party or anything like that?
1 A. No. Never in my life. I was never a member
2 of any party. I'm just a miserable wretch.
3 Q. Well, not belonging to a political party
4 doesn't make you a miserable wretch, Mr. E.
5 A. No, never.
6 Q. And so --
7 A. Yes, yes.
8 Q. Not even after the war did you ever join any
9 political party?
10 A. Never. Never.
11 Q. Did you serve in the army of the Republic of
12 Bosnia-Herzegovina during the war, or since?
13 A. In the army, in the army of
14 Bosnia-Herzegovina, yes.
15 Q. Was that during the war, or do you continue
16 to be employed as a soldier in the BiH army?
17 A. No, only for the war.
18 Q. Concerning your arrest, I don't want to know
19 where exactly you lived at that stage, Mr. E, but just
20 if you can describe this: You didn't live in the main
21 part of the town of Brcko but in a hamlet on the
22 outskirts; is that correct?
23 A. The suburb of the town.
24 Q. You were arrested during the middle of the
25 day on the 14th of May; is that right?
1 A. At 12.00, in the apartment.
2 Q. I think the people who arrested you you
3 identified as Arkanovic because of their uniform.
4 A. Yes, yes.
5 Q. What was particular about their uniform that
6 told you these were Arkanovic or Arkanovci?
7 A. They had black T-shirts, black jeans, and on
8 the pocket behind, a tiger, a yellow emblem of a tiger.
9 Q. Was it just you that they took away or did
10 they take away anybody else from your immediate
12 A. They took me, my neighbour, both him and her,
13 the three of us, and they left my wife and child
15 Q. Did they examine your identification cards?
16 A. They only asked the identity card of my
17 wife's. When they saw that I was a Muslim, they told
18 my wife to pack things for me and get me ready. So my
19 wife got ready, and I took the identity card, the
20 discharge document of the hospital, and I brought it
21 there, together with my neighbours.
22 Q. Is this correct, effectively, that it was
23 male people being taken away but not women?
24 A. Yes. The wife went with us to the camp, to
25 Luka, and when we reached Luka, me and my male
1 neighbour were taken there, and my female neighbour,
2 that is, his wife, she left with those people who had
3 brought us there.
4 Q. Now I want to ask you, you arrived at Luka at
5 about 1.00; would that be correct?
6 A. It is. We arrived in Luka around 1.00. Yes,
7 I think it was about 1.00.
8 Q. When you got there, I firstly ask if you can
9 help me with this: What type of personnel were in
10 charge at the camp? Were they soldiers, police, people
11 from a militia or a special unit? What were they?
12 A. When I entered Luka and when I was taken out,
13 they were men in olive-grey uniforms like the
14 wintertime uniform. Some of them wore multi-coloured
15 uniforms. One small policeman was in a blue uniform
16 with short sleeves, and they were all standing there.
17 The two of us were made to lean against the
18 door of that warehouse, and we were standing, and the
19 one in the multi-coloured uniform came to me and told
20 me to go into the office. When I went into the office,
21 there was a man there sitting, dark with moustache, and
22 he asked to see my documents. He asked me where I came
23 from, and I told him. "Do you have anything else with
24 you?" I said, "No." "Empty your pockets." I emptied
25 my pocket. "You're free to go." I left, and the one
1 in the multi-coloured uniform with long hair again made
2 me lean against the door of that warehouse, and I stood
4 Meanwhile, a man appeared with a black
5 briefcase. He went in, and a female. He was wearing a
6 blue uniform, short sleeves, that is, a shirt with
7 short sleeves. The female had a white dress, black
8 tights, and the dress was white with black dots.
9 Q. Can we just clarify something you've just
10 said? You've described a man appearing. It's come up
11 on the transcript as "a black briefcase". Did you, in
12 fact, say a man appeared in a car or with a car?
13 A. Yes, yes, it was a car, a black car. He
14 arrived in a black car from the petrol station and he
15 entered the gate, and he left the car there and
16 continued on foot with that girl.
17 MR. GREAVES: I wasn't present yesterday
18 afternoon, but I think this was given an exhibit
19 number. Perhaps I could just ask the usher to show
20 that to you.
21 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This is
22 Prosecution Exhibit 23.
23 MR. GREAVES: Thank you.
24 Q. Mr. E, can I just establish with you, were
25 you made to stand against the door of the warehouse
1 that we can see in the picture there? Just glance
2 over. I think you can probably see it on the video
3 screen. Can you?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Are those the offices into which you were
6 taken in due course?
7 A. I was standing here to the left [indicating]
8 and my neighbour to the right, and the one in front
9 here, this door here [indicating], that is the office
10 and that is where people went into the toilet as I was
11 standing there.
12 Q. Again, sorry to go into it, but I just want
13 to get it absolutely clear. The door of the hangar we
14 can see is open?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Was it closed?
17 A. About that much [indicating] just for one to
18 get out. Not more than that.
19 Q. It was sufficiently open that one or two
20 people could pass through the door, so about
21 seven-eighths closed?
22 A. No, only one, only one man, only one. It
23 would allow only one man to pass.
24 Q. How long were you kept waiting at that door
1 A. I waited until the one in the multi-coloured
2 uniform approached that policeman and that female and
3 said, "We've got a woman. There she is, sitting on a
4 chair, a balija woman, SDA," and he started off -- now,
5 if we imagine, you know when the wind blows and it's so
6 strong that it takes you away, that is how he started
7 towards that woman, and grabbed her by the scruff of
8 the neck with his left hand, lifted her off and pulled
9 her a bit further away, five or six metres, and pulling
10 and pulling her, and then got out his pistol, and right
11 into the back of her head.
12 Q. Mr. E, I don't want to stop you from telling
13 us what happened, but it's going to help both you, to
14 get away quicker, and Their Honours, to understand what
15 happened, if you listen to the question and just answer
16 the question. I know you want to tell us as much as
17 you can, but if you can do that, please, we're going to
18 get away quicker. All right? I know that you're
19 anxious, and I'm keen to make you as comfortable as
20 possible. Just answer the question and we'll get on.
21 A. I answered the question. I said he killed
22 that woman. What else do you want me to say?
23 Q. The question is this: How long were you kept
24 waiting at the door before you were interrogated?
25 A. What did they interrogate me? They didn't
1 interrogate me at all. I was standing when he killed
2 the woman, and the one with the long hair shouted, "Get
3 into that warehouse." I entered the warehouse, and
4 when I looked, there were lots of people there. In the
5 one corner, there were socks, white socks, some
6 dresses, and there were people sitting there.
7 As you see this door, there's an identical
8 door on the other end, and --
9 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Witness E, this
10 is the Presiding Judge speaking to you. I know that we
11 are doing this as absolutely carefully as we can in
12 respect of all the series of things that happened to
13 you, but the Judges must also respect in these
14 proceedings an absolute balance between what the
15 Prosecution wants to prove and what the Defence wants
16 to prove. I'm making this intervention in order to ask
17 you first to answer the questions that are asked.
18 There was a specific question, "How much time did you
19 remain waiting in that place?" You can answer very
21 I think we're going to get to the point which
22 troubled you the most, and of course we could
23 understand this, as the death of this woman right in
24 front your eyes, but we'll get to it. But for the time
25 being, please try to answer the questions that are
1 being asked very specifically, that is, the questions
2 Mr. Greaves is asking you, and I thank you very much
3 for doing so.
4 Please proceed.
5 MR. GREAVES:
6 Q. The question, and I'll remind you of it, was
7 how long were you kept waiting at the door before being
8 taken into the office, and whether it was an
9 interrogation or just a series of questions, how long
10 were you there for?
11 A. I don't know about time. I don't know about
12 time. I was there -- well, it could have been 15
13 minutes or so.
14 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you for
15 having made the effort to give a specific answer.
16 Please proceed, Mr. Greaves.
17 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much, Your
18 Honour, for your assistance.
19 Q. Mr. E, you were taken into the offices. You
20 say it wasn't an interrogation, but you were asked some
21 questions and you handed some documents over; is that
23 A. I gave documents to that man and came back.
24 Q. How long in all were you inside the offices?
25 A. Well, just as long as it took me to get my
1 documents out of my pocket, give it to them, and when
2 he told me to empty my pockets and to leave the
3 office. So it could have taken how much? Two minutes,
4 not more than that.
5 Q. The person inside the building, was he alone
6 or were there other people in the room with him?
7 A. No, he was alone. That man was alone, and he
8 had a moustache, and he was alone there. But when I
9 entered, there was a huge pile of identity cards.
10 Whatever anyone had was there on his desk.
11 Q. The man that you saw in that office, was he
12 examining the identity cards, or what was he doing with
14 A. Nothing. He was just taking them and piling
15 them up.
16 Q. Help me with this, please, Mr. E: Can you
17 describe for us the man who was in the room with the
18 identification cards? What was his age?
19 A. He could have been 40-ish, a dark moustache,
20 parted hair, black parted hair.
21 Q. How was he dressed? Was he in uniform or was
22 he in civilian clothes?
23 A. No. Civilian uniform, a shirt -- well, you
24 know how men dress.
25 Q. Of course. In the course of the conversation
1 that you had with him, did he identify either himself
2 or what he was doing at the camp?
3 A. Nothing, nothing, nothing, no. That man said
4 nothing to me. He only asked that, and I gave it to
5 him, and nothing else. He didn't give me his name or
7 Q. Help me with this, please: You then became
8 aware of the arrival of a van with this woman inside
9 it. How long had you been waiting? Having been sent
10 outside again, how long before that van arrived?
11 A. No one in that room -- the black car and the
12 woman, as soon as they arrived, the van turned and left
13 with that woman. I don't know where they went, but
14 only that woman left.
15 Q. The people who had brought her in, were you
16 able to identify whether they were from the military or
17 from a special unit or a militia?
18 A. Well, I'm telling him, those men had dark
19 black T-shirts, black trousers, and the emblem of a
20 yellow tiger, and they spoke as Serbians do, people
21 from Serbia.
22 Q. The woman was placed next-door to the
24 A. That woman who was with me was taken away.
25 But another woman was brought, a blonde woman, 38 to 40
1 years old, blonde. She was wearing a red vest and a
2 red chequered skirt.
3 Q. Now, if we may turn to the people who arrived
4 in the black car, did you know the woman who arrived in
5 the black car?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Mr. E, I just want to refresh your memory, if
8 you will. It's right, in fact, that you told the
9 Office of the Prosecutor that you recognised the woman
10 arriving in the black car, didn't you? You knew her as
12 A. I only know her mother. Her mother worked
13 for the "7th of April". Her mother was Vera, and she
14 was a cleaning woman and chore woman. I know her.
15 Q. You told the Office of the Prosecutor that
16 you knew Monika's brother as well?
17 A. Her brother was a house painter.
18 Q. Did you know his name?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did you see the brother at Luka whilst you
21 were there?
22 A. No.
23 Q. The person that you say signed your pass with
24 the name "Adolf", would you just describe him to us,
25 please? How old was he?
1 A. Sure, I can. Why not? He could have been 26
2 to 28 years of age. Yes, that's so, and he weighed
3 about 65 to 70 kilos. Tall, about 180, 190. That's
4 how tall he was.
5 Q. Can I remind you again of this, that what you
6 told the Office of the Prosecutor was that he was
7 around 190 centimetres tall, with a thin build?
8 A. I'm telling you, a rather thin, lanky, tall,
9 skinny man.
10 Q. When you first saw him, was he armed or
12 A. He had a rifle about that size [indicating].
13 I don't know what that weapon was called, but he had
14 that rifle, and that female who came with him had a
16 Q. I'm going to ask you about not knowing the
17 name of the rifle. Isn't it the case that you told the
18 Office of the Prosecutor that you did, in fact,
19 recognise the weapon; a short-barrelled rifle with
20 small-calibre ammunition called a Zagi?
21 A. When I arrived in the free territory, I saw
22 that kind of weapon and I asked, "What is this rifle?"
23 They told me, "Zagi," and he had one like that.
24 Q. Then I think another person came onto the
25 scene, somebody who had a ponytail. Is that right?
1 A. Yes, long hair, ponytail with a rubber band,
2 and he had it tied nicely.
3 Q. Did you know that person at all or was he a
4 complete stranger to you?
5 A. No, no, no, no, I didn't know him.
6 Q. Did you ever hear him being referred to by
7 any name?
8 A. Not until Adolf came. And when he told him,
9 "Adolf, we've got a woman," then I heard Adolf address
10 him "Sok", and that is how I learned that his name was
12 Q. The first thing that was said about the woman
13 was to make a reference to her being an SDA member; is
14 that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Was it immediately after she was identified
17 as an SDA woman that you say that she was grabbed and
19 A. When he said what he had to say, I mean the
20 one with the ponytail, the one with the long hair, when
21 he told -- that is, Adolf said, "We've got a woman, a
22 balija woman, a member of the SDA." Then he started
23 for her, got her by the scruff of her neck, pulled her
24 down at the edge. He made her go down on her knees,
25 and fired a bullet into the back of her head. Then
1 that one with long hair told us, "Get into the
2 warehouse," and we entered the warehouse.
3 Q. When you went inside the warehouse, were
4 there other people inside the warehouse?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Upon entering the warehouse, how many people
7 were inside it?
8 A. Well, out there, in the corner, there were
9 people -- well, there could have been some 20 or so in
10 the corner down there. I didn't go to count them.
11 Q. And by reference to, as it were, going inside
12 the door, where inside the hangar were the people
13 placed? Were they placed on the left-hand side, the
14 right-hand side? Where, exactly?
15 A. Right-hand side. There were people -- as I
16 am sitting, as I go into the warehouse, they were on
17 the right-hand side. In a corner up there, there were
18 some socks, there were socks and white things, I mean
19 shirts and T-shirts, and that is where those people
20 were sitting.
21 Q. Is it right, Mr. E, that when you went inside
22 the hangar, apart from persons being detained there,
23 there was at least one, if not more, police officers
24 inside the hangar?
25 A. A policeman in a short-sleeved shirt, he was
1 standing at the warehouse as I went in.
2 Q. The second person that you saw being
3 assaulted, the allegation against him was that he was a
4 Croat who was also a rapist; is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And that's why he was singled out for being
8 A. He was separated out down to a corner at the
9 bottom of the warehouse. That's where he was sitting.
10 Q. The people in the hangar at this time, were
11 they exclusively men, or men and women?
12 A. There were only men in the hangar where I
13 was, in this storage room.
14 Q. And the person who was kicked, was he in fact
15 a Croat?
16 A. The one who was down in the corner?
17 Q. Yes, the one who was accused of being a
19 A. Yes. He was down there in the corner, and
20 when they set me down in the chair, this policeman said
21 he raped a nine-year old girl who was Serb.
22 Q. I want to turn now to another particular
23 individual. You recognised someone, amongst the
24 people, who was already detained there, did you?
25 A. I only knew one person.
1 Q. Was that the person who'd worked as a nurse
2 at a medical centre?
3 A. No, that was my neighbour. But this young
4 man was -- he was one of the two who were giving us
5 food, and this neighbour of mine was distributing the
7 Q. So it was a neighbour of yours who was acting
8 as a, as it were, like a cook, or --
9 A. No. He wasn't a cook. No, he was just
10 distributing food to the detainees.
11 Q. I just want to be absolutely clear as to who
12 we're talking about. You were asked this yesterday by
13 my learned friend from the Prosecution: "Was there a
14 man present who had been a male nurse at the
15 hospital?" And you said, "He was the one distributing
16 food." Is that correct or incorrect, that information?
17 A. The male nurse did distribute food, and I
18 reconfirmed that.
19 Q. And was he the nurse who had worked at the
20 medical centre?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What happened to the person who had been the
23 nurse at the medical centre? Just tell us that.
24 A. This policeman came and called him out and
25 started beating him up to the door. And at the door,
1 as this door was opened, there were two men there. As
2 he reached the door, he was hit in the chest. He fell,
3 and then there was -- you could just hear his moans,
4 and you could hear this "duuu" [phoen] sound.
5 Q. You didn't see what happened; you could only
6 hear those things?
7 A. I just heard; didn't see.
8 Q. So you cannot say in fact if that person was
9 killed or not?
10 A. I didn't see him being killed. I just heard
11 the shot.
12 Q. What I want to ask you is this: In your
13 statement to the Office of the Prosecutor, you then
14 describe a second victim, who you describe as the
15 person who was there as a cook and who had been giving
16 out food, giving out bread for you to eat.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What I want to suggest to you is that your
19 recollection is very confused about these incidents,
20 Mr. E.
21 A. What kind of confusion?
22 Q. Well, again, in evidence yesterday before the
23 Tribunal -- I'm sorry. Forgive me.
24 You describe the second person also as a male
1 A. Yes, they were both male nurses. There were
2 two male nurses, and this is what I repeat now. There
3 were two male nurses, and they were both taken out, and
4 both of them were shot, the same way; first beaten.
5 Q. Again, in relation to the second person, does
6 it come to this: Having been beaten, the person was
7 taken out, and you did not see them again?
8 A. No, the person did not come back, and you
9 never saw them again. They never came back.
10 Q. And if you heard a shot, you don't know
11 precisely what happened to the person who was taken
12 out, because you were not present?
13 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] You've already
14 asked that question, Mr. Greaves. I believe that the
15 witness has answered you. The witness said that he did
16 not see the scene exactly; he said that he heard cries
17 and he heard gunfire. He can't say anything more than
18 that. Let's try to move forward, please.
19 MR. GREAVES:
20 Q. Is this the case, that in relation to that
21 man, he was selected by somebody called "Sok"?
22 A. Sok? No. Sok was doing this thing to the
23 Croatian person.
24 Q. What I want to put to you is that, in fact,
25 what you told the Office of the Prosecutor was this:
1 He was pointed out by Sok, beaten with a stick by a
2 young police officer, and then taken outside the
3 hangar. But you now say that that's not correct?
4 A. The policeman with a short-sleeved blue
5 uniform was -- it was a blue uniform. I will repeat it
6 100 times. This is the man who was bringing men out.
7 Sok stood at the door. That was the one with the long
9 And I can repeat it 100 times, and I will
10 continue to repeat it. Please do not go on like that,
11 because I will always repeat it.
12 Q. Is this right, that one of the people who was
13 taken out during the course of that evening was accused
14 of being a sniper?
15 A. Yes. His name was Braco. He was from
16 Grcica. He had been accused of being a sniper, and he
17 was taken out and killed in the same manner.
18 Q. Again, did you see him being killed?
19 A. No, I just heard. I just told you, it was
20 the same way in which these two food persons were. He
21 never came back into the warehouse.
22 Q. Were you subsequently -- I'm sorry.
23 Were you subsequently interrogated, yourself,
24 Mr. E?
25 A. This policeman came to me and told me, "You,
1 yellow, come on," because I had this colour shirt on
2 me. And when I got going, he started beating me with
3 his baton and said, "Run," and I kept running. And as
4 I reached the door, I could only hear -- I could only
5 feel two feet kicking me. And then I just fell, and
6 then they were just kicking me. And the one with the
7 ponytail told me to get up. I got up. I thought that
8 I was going to the office where I had turned in my
9 documents. And then he hit me, and he said, "Not
10 there; over here."
11 And then I saw that people were going into
12 the toilet, and I thought, "Well, most probably they
13 will kill me here in this toilet." And I walked in,
14 and there was a door straight down. He walked me in
15 there, and then men were sitting around the table.
16 They were in military uniform, some in SMB-type uniform
17 and the others camouflage-type uniform.
18 Q. Mr. E, you were issued with the pass in due
19 course, but before then, had there been some form of
20 questioning of you or discussion about you that took
21 place in your presence?
22 A. They were hitting me, and this man walked me
23 into this room, this office, and I saw there were nine
24 of them, and the tenth man was Adolf. One was sitting
25 in an armchair, one was sitting on a table. Black
1 T-shirts and black jeans. He did not ask me, he just
2 pushed me against the wardrobe, and he asked Adolf, "Is
3 he going to work with me or is he going to work with
4 the other men?" And then Adolf told him, "Go on,
6 Q. There was somebody in the room whom you knew?
7 A. Adolf was sitting in a police uniform.
8 Q. Yes, but apart from him, there was somebody
9 that you knew in that room, wasn't there?
10 A. (redacted).
15 Q. Of course, but I just want to explore a
16 little the conversation that took place. He recognised
17 you and told those other people in the room about you;
18 is that what it comes to?
19 A. Yes, when I was being beaten. He said to
20 this Adolf, "Adolf, don't beat him. He is a poor
21 man." And Adolf said, "How do you mean, a poor man?"
22 And he said, "Well, he is just a poor man who is trying
23 to make ends meet. (redacted)
24 (redacted). He is just trying to survive and
25 feed his family."
1 And this is when Adolf gave me a pass so I
2 can get out of the camp and I could take care of my
3 wife and child.
4 Q. Isn't it also the case that part of the
5 discussion and the reason why you were released was
6 because you were identified as having nothing to do
7 with the Muslim political parties?
8 A. I don't know, but he just said that I had
9 been 100 per cent investigated, and then he released
11 Q. The reason I asked you that last question,
12 Mr. E, and so that you may deal with it, is what you
13 told the Office of the Prosecutor and put into your
14 statement was this: "(redacted)
18 So it's right, isn't it --
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. -- the reason why you were released --
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. -- is because you were not associated with
23 politics in any way? And that --
24 A. I don't know.
25 Q. At that point, the beating stopped?
1 A. Yes.
2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Let me point
3 out to you, Mr. Greaves -- this is in paragraph 16 of
4 the Prosecutor's report -- we don't have to repeat what
5 is clear. Goran said that the witness was just a poor
6 man who had nothing to do with politics. That's in the
7 report. Spare the witness a bit, please. When
8 something was said, it was said, and it seems to me
9 that that's in this summary that I've got right in
10 front of me, please.
11 MR. GREAVES:
12 Q. The pass that was issued to you, signed with
13 this name, "Adolf," at any time during your detention
14 in Luka on that day had you learnt the name "Adolf"
15 from him, apart from seeing it on the pass?
16 A. Because Sok addressed him as "Adolf."
17 Q. You didn't learn his real name that day?
18 A. No. No.
19 Q. How much later did you associate the name
20 "Goran Jelisic" with the name "Adolf"?
21 A. When people came from the camp and they
22 talked about him, they said that his name was Goran
23 Jelisic and that his nickname was Adolf. This is when
24 I learned his real name.
25 Q. So you were relying on what other people told
1 you. You don't -- you, yourself, do not know how they
2 came to be in possession of the name?
3 A. Well, those who were in the camp, I don't
4 know. I know that Adolf -- that Adolf, even today, or
5 when we reached free territory, when those who were
6 released came to the free territory, they were talking
7 about Adolf from the camp being Goran Jelisic, so this
8 is what I can reconfirm about Adolf.
9 Q. Let me put the question to you in another
10 way. You cannot say the circumstances in which they,
11 your informants, learnt this name and whether the
12 information they were given was accurate, can you?
13 Because you weren't present when that happened.
14 A. No, I don't know his real a name. I did not
15 know his real name, and I cannot say what I did not
16 know, so I'm only saying about what I did know.
17 Q. What I want to suggest to you is that whoever
18 it was who signed that, and was described as Adolf, was
19 not Goran Jelisic, and the description which you gave
20 to the Office of the Prosecutor, I suggest, indicates
21 that you've got the wrong person, because you described
22 someone who is far taller than he is. So you're
23 mistaken as to his identity.
24 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Greaves,
25 I've noted on several occasions that you proceed with
1 affirmations. I ask you to ask your question and to
2 keep your opinions for your final conclusions. You
3 cannot intimidate the witness by saying, "I assert
4 this. I assert that." No, you've got to be more
5 nuanced. You have the right to your opinions, but you
6 can express them in your final pleadings or, when you
7 do so, do it with a degree of nuance, showing the
8 witness that there may be contradictions of what he is
9 saying. But you cannot begin by saying, "I assert
10 this" or "I assert that." I ask you to be careful,
12 MR. GREAVES: I suspect, Your Honour, that
13 it's one of these things that come from a matter of the
14 different styles that exist in different systems. And
15 just as I have to be tolerant of the civil-law system
16 and their practice, of course, it would be helpful if a
17 similar tolerance was --
18 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I'm not
19 applying civil or Roman law. I'm sorry, Mr. Greaves,
20 we're not going to go back to that discussion. In this
21 Court, we don't have Anglo-Saxon or civil law. You
22 seem to say that we're only using civil law. We have
23 one law, and it's in our Rules of Procedure and
24 Evidence, and you will note that each time I make a
25 comment, I rely on the Rules of Procedure and
1 Evidence. I am not contesting at all your right to
2 conduct your cross-examination as you like; I'm simply
3 asking that when you proceed with assertions, to do it
4 with nuance and to show each time why you are doing
5 it. That is your right. As regards the rest, your
6 opinions, you will have ample time to express them at
7 the time of the final pleadings.
8 Please continue.
9 MR. GREAVES:
10 Q. Let me put the question in another way, then,
11 to you, Mr. E. The person you have described as being
12 one metre 90 tall and identified as Adolf, identifying
13 him as Goran Jelisic, you have made a mistake. Do you
14 accept that or not, Mr. E?
15 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Did you
16 understand the question that was asked -- properly, and
17 I thank Mr. Greaves for that -- did you understand the
18 sense of the question that was asked? Mr. Greaves is
19 asking whether you consider that you made a mistake
20 when you associated the first name "Adolf" with the man
21 that you alluded to specifically. Did you understand
22 the question? Try to concentrate, and then please
23 answer. You must answer.
24 A. I say that he is tall, that his height was
25 between 180 and 190 centimetres. He was thin, skinny;
1 that is how he looked then. I was very afraid, so I
2 didn't approach him to try to take his measurements.
3 Had I been able to take his measurements, I could have
4 been able to tell you exactly, but if you came close
5 enough, you could tell what was lying in wait for you;
6 you would get a bullet.
7 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, just give me a
8 moment, please.
9 Q. I want just to clarify something about this
10 pass that you were issued.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Please
13 continue, Mr. Greaves.
14 MR. GREAVES:
15 Q. You left the Luka detention facility and went
16 where, exactly?
17 A. Exactly where I went? This Goran from Grcica
18 put me in a car and drove me home. To give it exact
19 information, Goran put me in a car and drove me home to
21 Q. And had your family gone already or were they
22 still there?
23 A. No, sir, they had not left. They were
24 there. When my wife kept -- gave me -- dressed my eyes
25 throughout the night so that I could see again, and
1 then in the morning, I took my child by the hand and
2 crossed the lines. It is better to try to escape than
3 to wait for a bullet.
4 Let's try to finish this off, please.
5 Q. And you used that pass in order to make your
6 way through the lines?
7 A. Let's get this straight, sir. There were two
8 lines. There were Serbian lines and the Muslim lines.
9 I took a risk. It was either to be killed or to cross
10 over with my wife. I crossed over, and I arrived in
11 the free territory, and this is where I was found by
12 our men.
13 Q. Please, Mr. E, you've just asked us to get a
14 move on, and now you're not answering the question.
15 Did you or did you not use that pass that you had been
16 given, to show it to --
17 A. No, no, I never used it anywhere. I did not
18 use the pass anywhere, because I had no opportunity to
19 use it. To whom should I produce it?
20 Q. But eventually the pass was handed over to
21 somebody, wasn't it?
22 A. Yes, I turned it in when I arrived in the
23 free territory. I turned it over to a man -- I did not
24 have any other documents. I had that document. Had I
25 known about this, I would have eaten the document. I
1 wouldn't have shown it to anyone.
2 Q. And the next time that you saw that pass was
3 when it was shown to you by somebody from the Office of
4 the Prosecutor?
5 A. The next time, after the pass was taken away
6 from me in the free territory, it was shown to me
8 Q. The person to whom -- I'm sorry.
9 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I would like to
10 consult my colleagues.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] My colleagues
13 and I are going to order a break now for two reasons.
14 I would like that the parties in this
15 courtroom focus -- well, I'm turning to you,
16 Witness E.
17 All of this is extremely painful, and I want
18 you to understand that the Judges are listening to you
19 with a great deal of attention and have a great deal of
20 sympathy for what happened to you. At the same time,
21 we must do our work as Judges, that is, to be sure that
22 the accused, who is here, be properly defended under
23 conditions that, in civilised countries, are called an
24 equitable and fair trial, even if you experienced
25 dreadful and tragic experiences and the fact that
1 people who were murdered next to you did not have the
2 right to a fair trial. Nonetheless, I'm going to ask
3 you to rest for 15 minutes.
4 Mr. Greaves, I would like to say to you, in
5 agreement with my colleagues, and remind you of what
6 you already know, that at the basis of this trial,
7 there has been a plea of guilt asserted very clearly by
8 the accused, who is present here, and I return you to
9 the indictment. We are only discussing count 1, which
10 is genocide.
11 Through questions that are asked, I would not
12 like us to go back, in summary, to the presence of
13 Jelisic in the hangar or the confusion between him and
14 other people. With all the care required and with all
15 your great skill, I would like to refer you to the need
16 to observe the fact that there was a plea of guilt, and
17 I have it in front of me.
18 We can look at counts 2 and 3, the killings
19 of -- I won't say their names. Perhaps they were a
20 protected witness, four other men. Counts 4 and 5, the
21 killing of an unknown male; counts 6 and 7, the killing
22 of HJ. I won't say. Counts 8 and 9, the killing of a
23 man from Sinteraj; 10 and 11, the killing of AH or H;
24 12 and 13, the killing of S; 14 and 15, the killing of
25 SC and JC; 16 and 17, the killing of H and SZ; 18 and
1 19, the killing of MB; counts 20 and 21, the killing of
2 MA; 22 and 23, the killing of SG; 24 and 25, the
3 killing of S; counts 26 and 27, the killing of MG;
4 counts 28 and 29, sexual assault. No, those are not
5 ascribed. No, they relate to the co-accused. 30 and
6 31, and I could even add 32 and 33, not 34 and 35, but
7 36 and 37, 38, 39, 40 and 41, and that's it, and 44.
8 I do understand that in order to demonstrate
9 your client's innocence in respect of genocide, that
10 you are using all types of details as regards the
11 counts of genocide, but I would like -- we are going to
12 take our 15-minute break, but I would like you to
13 consider the fact that there are certain things that
14 have been acknowledged, that is, all these murders that
15 your client has acknowledged, if you agree.
16 And I'm going to ask the Victims and
17 Witnesses Section take particular care of Witness E.
18 I'm going to give you 15 minutes, and if we have to
19 take 20 minutes, then we'll take 20 minutes.
20 We're going to take a break now.
21 --- Recess taken at 12.06 p.m.
22 --- On resuming at 12.25 p.m.
23 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We will now
24 resume the hearing.
25 Have the accused brought in, please.
1 [The accused entered court]
2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Witness E, how
3 do you feel?
4 A. All right.
5 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Were you
6 properly taken care of during the break?
7 A. There was somebody. There was somebody.
8 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Can you
9 continue? We're going to try to finish this as quickly
10 as we can. Will you be all right?
11 A. Yes, yes, I will.
12 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you very
14 Mr. Greaves, do you have much longer to go?
15 MR. GREAVES: I think about 20 minutes.
16 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I really would
17 like you to try to go as quickly as you can, given the
18 condition of the witness. All right?
19 MR. GREAVES: Of course.
20 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I say, of
21 course, if you can. I'm not saying you must, but given
22 the psychological and physical condition of the
23 witness, I'm simply asking, if you can, to go as
24 quickly as you can.
25 MR. GREAVES: I think one more question about
1 the pass, and then I think we shall be on to the
2 question of the list of people.
3 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Very well.
4 MR. GREAVES: I mean it's a fair estimate.
5 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Very well.
6 Thank you very much.
7 MR. GREAVES: Mr. E, I would like you just to
8 look briefly at the exhibit that was shown to you this
9 morning, which is the pass which bears your name. 24,
10 please. Thank you. If I could just have a look at it
11 as it goes past. Thank you, yes.
12 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Only put the
13 copy without the name -- only put the copy of it
14 without the name on the ELMO.
15 MR. GREAVES: Has that got his name on it?
16 If so, please don't put it on the ELMO. All I want you
17 to do is show it to the witness.
18 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] I gave him
19 the document which has the name of the individual
21 MR. GREAVES: Take it off the ELMO, please,
22 and just show it to the witness. All I want to do is
23 show it to the witness, please.
24 Q. Mr. E, is that what was shown to you in April
25 1998 by Mr. Bernard O'Donnell, the investigator,
1 effectively a copy of an original?
2 A. A copy.
3 Q. From your own knowledge, you cannot say what
4 has happened to the original or where the original is?
5 A. No, I cannot.
6 MR. GREAVES: I'm finished with the exhibit.
7 Q. Mr. E, we're going to conclude, and as I've
8 indicated to Their Honours in about 15 or 20 minutes,
9 by asking you some questions about the people on the
10 list you were asked about yesterday.
11 Do you remember going through that list with
12 the Prosecutor and being asked questions about it?
13 A. I do.
14 Q. You knew of Stipo Glavocevic?
15 A. Yes. (redacted)
17 Q. From whom did you hear about what had
18 happened to him?
19 A. From people who were exchanged. It is from
20 them that I heard it.
21 Q. As far as Suad Hodzic is concerned, you knew
22 him before the war?
23 A. Yes. He lived in Klanac.
24 Q. Your information that was given to you was
25 that he had been killed at the health centre. Can you
1 remember who it was who gave you that information?
2 A. People talk, but that is not the one that you
3 mentioned. It is another Hodzic. But Papa, the one --
4 where it says "Papa", he is Hodzic too, and about him
5 is that I heard he was killed in the health centre,
6 whatever it was. It was about Papa that I heard that,
7 because everybody says how he was tortured and tortured
8 and tortured.
9 Q. But you did also know Suad Hodzic? I'm
10 looking at your evidence --
11 A. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. That is the guy
12 from Klanac, and Papa is from Kolobara.
13 Q. So we may clarify it, what did you hear about
14 Suad Hodzic?
15 A. That he was killed at Luka, Suad. And Papa,
16 Papa Hodzic, that he was killed at the health centre.
17 But I don't know that because it is all hearsay, and I
18 asked not to have to talk about that because I did not
19 see it personally and I had nothing to do with it.
20 What I saw, I will repeat it, and I'm positive about it
21 100 per cent. But what I didn't see, I mean I can't do
23 Q. Of course. We understand entirely, Mr. E,
24 that what you are doing is reporting things which were
25 told to you. We're just having a look at --
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. -- the reliability and accuracy of your
3 information, because it may be important. All right?
4 So please bear with me. I just need your help just to
5 tell us how you've come by the information.
6 Suljo Pezerovic --
7 A. Suljo Pezerovic is from Rijeka. He is a man
8 from Rijeka.
9 Q. Again, your information was that he had been
10 killed at Luka?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. But again you knew nothing of that
13 personally; you're relying on other people's
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Of those three people we've now discussed,
17 did you know anything of their political affiliations
18 before the war? Were they involved in politics,
19 members of political parties?
20 A. I know only about Papa, that he was a member
21 of the SDA, Papa.
22 Q. Thank you. Then Rahim Redenica?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Simply that he was killed, and I'm afraid the
25 transcript from which I've been working, it isn't quite
1 clear where he was killed because there was one of
2 the --
3 A. I heard that he was killed at Es.
4 Q. Whereabouts is that? I'm sorry, I don't know
5 the geography well enough, so please help us.
6 A. Where is that? Well, as you go from the
7 centre of the town and head for Bijeljina, and then
8 there comes the school, and then the forest management,
9 and you turn right, and it is those new buildings in
10 Brcko which were built and called Es.
11 Q. It's effectively a small suburb of Brcko?
12 A. Yes, yes. It's not a suburb, it's still the
13 centre of Brcko, except that these are new buildings
14 and they called it Es, E-S. You can enter from
15 Bijeljina, but then you come from Tuzla, then via
16 Majevica and that part.
17 Q. Do you know if he had been involved in
18 politics in any way before the war?
19 A. No, I don't know anything.
20 Q. Next, and we're drawing towards the end,
21 Mr. E, so that you know, Kibe Becirevic?
22 A. Kibe, Kibe. He was a butcher in Brcko. (redacted)
24 Q. Was he involved in politics at all?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Again you were told that he had been killed,
2 and you described it as in some bowling lanes is what
3 I've got in the transcript.
4 A. It was the collection centre where people go
5 bowling. That's what I heard, that it was there. But
6 that man was never actively involved in politics. He
7 was actively involved in bottles. He liked to drink,
8 that Kibe, I mean.
9 Q. And finally Osman Vatic --
10 A. Osman Vatic is a lawyer, famous Brcko lawyer.
11 Q. What did you hear about him, and when did you
12 hear it?
13 A. After people were exchanged, after they
14 arrived from the camp.
15 MR. GREAVES: Thank you.
16 Your Honour, I have no further questions of
17 the witness.
18 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Very well. I
19 appreciate that, Mr. Greaves. I appreciate your having
20 tried to go as quickly as you could for the
22 Mr. Nice, do you have some additional
23 questions to ask or no further questions?
24 MR. NICE: I've got no further questions to
25 ask. Thank you.
1 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Let me turn to
2 my colleagues.
3 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 Witness E, good morning. I can't call you by
5 your name, so allow me to say just "E".
6 I'm rather confused by the pass you gave us,
7 which indicates that you were 100 per cent clean, and I
8 suppose the word "clean" in English is not the same
9 thing in French. I suppose it is the right translation
10 of the Serbo-Croat, which is "Cist", is it? How do you
11 say it in Serbo Croat? Is the word "clean" right
13 I assume it is right.
14 A. Yes, it is.
15 JUDGE RIAD: What is the significance of
16 being clean? What makes a person clean, to have such a
17 pass? That's my first question.
18 I tried to find out for myself, from your
19 answers, and you mentioned in passing, very modestly,
20 that you were just a miserable wretch, very modestly,
21 of course, which you are not, but does that mean that
22 others were unimportant, because that means
23 unimportant, unimportant in the Muslim community, were
24 considered clean because they are miserable wretches,
25 as you said? What makes some clean and others not
1 clean? That's the question, if you can answer it.
2 A. I think -- well, he wrote that he had checked
3 me. When this little Goran from Grcica told him,
4 "Don't, Adolf, he is a poor man. (redacted)
5 (redacted)" and
6 he wrote on the pass that he had checked me 100
7 per cent, that nobody should let his finger on me, that
8 I could move freely around the town, and that is what
9 he wrote. He told me, "Here is this pass for you.
10 Whoever you show this pass to, he won't harm you in any
12 That is the only answer I know how to give
13 you. I don't know other things. I have no education.
14 JUDGE RIAD: You have done all right. So,
15 the fact that you were spared because you were a poor
16 man, which means that poor people were spared? Is that
17 the only thing in your mind, that because you were
18 poor, you were spared out of charity, and those who
19 were not poor were not spared?
20 A. Here, that young one, that Goran, he saved
21 me, and I can never thank him enough. But I believe
22 that he did not know who was rich and who was poor. He
23 did not know that. People were simply killed, and it
24 was Adolf himself who told me before that, "You're
25 going home. Nobody left this place alive, but you are
1 going home to provide for your wife and child." That
2 is what Adolf told me.
3 I have nothing else to say. And he wrote
4 that for me and gave me this pass, and I never even
5 looked at it. I put it in my pocket. My wife took it
6 and put it in her purse, and we crossed the lines, we
7 escaped across the lines, reached the free territory.
8 They asked for my identity card. I didn't have the
9 identity card, and my wife said, "He doesn't have the
10 identity card because he was in the camp in Luka, but
11 he does have this pass." It is with this pass that I
12 reached the free territory, and I know nothing else.
13 JUDGE RIAD: Just to sum up, he told you,
14 "You, alone, are going to be spared"?
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] So it was
17 completely an individual act. Thank you very much.
18 That's all, thank you.
19 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you,
20 Witness E. We are really finished now. I know that
21 you're very tired. Before you leave, the Witness and
22 Victims Unit will take care of you. You're not just
23 going to go that way?
24 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] No, Your
1 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Are you taking
2 the plane back home tonight? Is it tonight? Is your
3 departure scheduled for tonight? Don't give me any
4 specifics, but is it scheduled for tonight? Can you
5 tell me that?
6 A. I don't know when I'm leaving.
7 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] In any case,
8 we're going to be sure that your departure takes place
9 as best it can.
10 We would like to express all our gratitude to
11 you for having come here two times, and for having to
12 recount all of these dreadful experiences, and to be
13 confronted with the looks in this Tribunal of different
14 people. Try to find peace again.
15 You're going to leave this courtroom. We're
16 going to draw the blinds so you're not recognised, and
17 we hope that the remainder of your life is serene and
18 good. Thank you very much.
19 MR. NICE: Can I ask the usher not to bring
20 the next witness in --
21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. Nice.
22 MR. NICE: Can I ask the usher not to bring
23 the next witness in until I've dealt with an exhibit.
24 [The witness withdrew]
25 MR. NICE: While we wait for the usher, may I
1 cross the floor and hand a document to Mr. Greaves.
2 Your Honour, what I have and what I've shown
3 to Mr. Greaves is the documentation that explains our
4 possession of the pass.
5 I notice that there was a question asked
6 that, of course, the witness couldn't answer about what
7 happened to the pass or how it came into the possession
8 of the OTP, and I would ask Your Honour to have a look
9 at this document, which is an original with English and
10 French translation.
11 The original of this document will be
12 somewhere here in the vaults and can be produced, if
13 necessary, but it came associated with the pass.
14 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] All right.
15 We're going to keep this exhibit confidential.
16 Can you bring in the next witness, please,
17 Mr. Prosecutor, unless Mr. Greaves has any comments to
18 make. I don't want this pass to spoil our whole day.
19 It was the subject of many, many questions.
20 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, I'm still
21 concerned about the accurate translation of the word
22 which has been subject of discussion. Although we may
23 have had a literal translation of it, there is some
24 dispute as to what the idiomatic use of that phrase
25 actually means, and I would invite the Tribunal to take
1 some steps to have further investigation of the
2 idiomatic use of this phrase, because my interpreter,
3 and I'm not going to give evidence, but my interpreter
4 has a suggestion, which what I'm going to suggest is
5 that my interpreter and the head of the interpretation
6 section of the Tribunal should meet and discuss what a
7 definitive meaning of the word is in its idiomatic
8 sense so that it may properly be dealt with. Your
9 Honours have been exercised about it, and the word is
10 important, and Your Honour Judge Riad has plainly
11 picked it up and wants it clarified. I would invite
12 its proper clarification, rather than just simply a
13 literal translation.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] The Tribunal
16 considers that it has received enough information about
18 Mr. Prosecutor, would you bring in the next
19 witness, please?
20 MR. NICE: Mr. Tochilovsky will be calling
21 the next witness, who seeks no protection.
22 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 Thank you, Mr. Tochilovsky. All right.
24 You're going to have the next witness brought in.
25 It is now a quarter to 1:00, and we're going
1 to have the next witness brought into the courtroom so
2 that we can at least begin, and then continue on
4 [The witness entered court]
5 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Do you hear
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] You're going to
9 give us your family name, your first name, your place
10 and date of birth, your current residence, and then
11 you're going to take an oath according to a statement
12 that is going to be given to you by the usher.
13 First please give us your family name, your
14 first name, your date of birth, place of birth,
15 residence, and current occupation. Thank you.
16 THE WITNESS: I'm Amir Didic. I was born on
17 the 1st of May, 1967, in Palanka, and I still live
19 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I didn't get
20 the interpretation -- yes, very well. Thank you.
21 Please read the solemn declaration that is
22 being given to you by the usher.
23 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
24 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
1 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you. You
2 may now be seated. Thank you for having come. You are
3 a witness called by the Office of the Prosecutor in a
4 trial which the Prosecutor has initiated against Goran
5 Jelisic, who is in this courtroom. First you're going
6 to answer the Prosecutor's questions, then the Defence
7 will ask you some questions in what we call the
8 cross-examination, and the Judges may also have some
9 questions, if they so desire.
10 Mr. Tochilovsky, please proceed.
11 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: Your Honours, if the
12 witness may have a summary of his statements placed
13 before him, if the usher would help us.
14 WITNESS: AMIR DIDIC
15 Examined by Mr. Tochilovsky:
16 [Witness answers through interpreter]
17 Q. Mr. Didic is this document before you the
18 document that was shown to you recently and that you
19 were able to read?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And is this the document you recognised as a
22 correct summary of your statements?
23 A. It is.
24 Q. Mr. Didic, were you arrested by Serb soldiers
25 at a road checkpoint and taken to the SUP in Brcko on
1 May 19, 1992?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Were you detained in room 13 in Brcko police
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Were there other Muslim detainees in room 13
7 with you?
8 A. Yes, there were about four or five people
9 there when I came.
10 Q. Were all of you then taken to the Luka
11 detention camp and placed in the hangar?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What ethnicity were those people who were
14 taken with you to Luka?
15 A. They were all Muslims.
16 Q. Mr. Didic, were you interrogated in Luka?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Can you tell the Court of the interrogation
19 which took place on May 20, the next day you arrived at
20 Luka, to Luka?
21 A. I was brought there on the 19th of May, that
22 is, to Luka. On the 20th of May, they began to
23 interrogate me. I was first interrogated by two
24 inspectors wearing multi-coloured uniforms, in one of
25 the offices across the hangar, and then I was taken
1 back to the hangar and then transferred to the other
2 part of the hangar. There were doors between parts of
3 the hangar.
4 In the evening, Kole began to interrogate me,
5 and there was also Dragan, a policeman -- I mean, he
6 was an active-duty policeman before the war -- and
7 there were a couple of people more whom I did not know,
8 I mean, whom I had never seen before. The only one I
9 knew was that policeman, Dragan.
10 Q. Did Goran Jelisic participate in the
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Was there any female among the interrogators?
14 A. Yes, there was a girl called Monika.
15 Q. Did you know Monika before the war?
16 A. I used to see her. I did not really know
17 her, but I used to see her. She worked for a coffee
19 Q. Do you know anything about her relationship
20 with Goran Jelisic?
21 A. I knew nothing before that, but during my
22 detention, I heard that they were living together and
23 that they were friends -- or rather that they dated
24 together. They were together.
25 Q. How were you treated during that
2 A. Very bad. Very badly. They beat me. They
3 beat me with the baton, they kicked me, and they were
4 wearing soldiers' boots, and things of that sort. All
5 sorts of things: hands, fists. They forced me to make
6 the sign of the cross and to change my name from Amir
7 into Alexander.
8 Q. When they made you make a cross, just with
9 regard to that, you are a Muslim by ethnicity; is that
11 A. I am, yes.
12 Q. Did Jelisic and other interrogators use any
13 objects to beat you?
14 A. Yes. Goran used it most. He used the
15 baton. He used a piece of cable a couple of times. He
16 broke Coca-Cola bottles against my head. Once he hit
17 me with the fire hose. He hit me on the head so that I
18 fainted. He was the one who beat me most.
19 Q. Who? Can you give the name of the person you
20 just mentioned? Who beat you the most?
21 A. Goran Jelisic beat me the most, at least,
22 that is how they addressed him. That is what they
23 called him, Goran Jelisic or Adolf.
24 Q. Did Monika say anything to you when she
25 participated in the beating?
1 A. Yes, they cursed balijas' mothers, saying
2 they should kill us all. She kept saying, "Why don't
3 you kill him? Why are you discussing with him?" That
4 was what Monika was saying to Goran.
5 Q. Mr. Didic, were other detainees beaten that
6 evening, May 20, in the hangar?
7 A. Yes. Andrija Tujekcic was taken there with
9 Q. Were you beaten again later the same evening?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And who participated in that beating?
12 A. Goran Jelisic.
13 Q. Witness D, were you beaten the next day, 21st
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did Goran Jelisic and Monika participate in
17 that beating?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. How severe was that beating? Did you bleed?
20 Did you have any injuries?
21 A. Yes, I was bleeding. My lips had burst, and
22 I had a bleeding nose, and my eyes, also, my eyes were
23 all inflamed because of the blows by the fists and
24 boots and everything, so my head was swollen, my ears
25 were swollen. My head was impossible, really, and I
1 was bleeding through the nose and through the mouth and
2 teeth and all that.
3 Q. Did Monika mistreat you inside the hangar,
4 while you were lying in the hangar?
5 A. Yes, on one occasion, I was lying down there
6 after Goran had beat me with those pieces of the fire
7 hose, when I fainted in the office. And I don't know
8 what happened after that, whether somebody carried me
9 to the hangar or what happened; I don't remember that.
10 And then they covered me with something, with a cover.
11 It was very hot, and of course there were flies all
12 around. And at some point Monika entered to see if I
13 was still alive, and poured some liquid over me, but my
14 eyes were already closed because of the beating, so I
15 couldn't see what it was.
16 Q. Can you tell the Court, for how many days did
17 those interrogations and beatings last?
18 A. It went on from between the 20th and 28th or
19 29th May, until the shift was changed, when Goran and
20 the rest of them who were there left.
21 Q. And how many times a day were you taken out
22 and beaten during this period?
23 A. Three times a day. That was the number of
24 times that Goran and the others took me out and beat
25 me. But Goran did that the most.
1 Q. Can you tell the Court how many times you
2 were beaten by Jelisic in camp, among other beatings
3 during this period of time, how many times Goran
4 participated in these beatings?
5 A. Ten to fifteen times, approximately. I
6 cannot tell you the exact number of times, but about
7 that number of times.
8 Q. Mr. Didic, was there a man named Ohro in
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And did he beat prisoners?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And do you know whether he was given any
14 authority to beat prisoners by anyone?
15 A. Yes, Goran Jelisic authorised him to do so,
16 as did Monika. They sort of gave him a title of
17 inspector. They sort of took pleasure in looking on as
18 he was beating people like Tufekcic and me.
19 Q. Mr. Didic, did you hear Jelisic saying why he
20 had come to Brcko?
21 A. Yes. On one occasion, it was night time, he
22 came in. He was cursing the Muslim mothers, and he was
23 just verbally abusing everybody. And he said that "I
24 came to Brcko with the intention of killing as many
25 Muslims as possible." But, he said, "I just came from
1 the Sava bridge; I just saved a Muslim. I am humane.
2 I saved a Muslim; he had a wife and two children. I
3 also am saving people, but I came here to kill as many
4 Muslims as possible in Brcko."
5 Q. With regard to that Sava River bridge, when
6 he said that he had saved a Bosnian or a Muslim, did he
7 mention what happened to others on the bridge?
8 A. Yes, he said that he had killed them all, but
9 that one man was crying and telling him how he had a
10 wife and two children, and he saved him, but all the
11 others were killed.
12 Q. Mr. Didic, can you tell the Court who was a
13 formal commander in the camp after May 19 when you were
14 detained there?
15 A. It was Mr. Kole, as warden of Luka.
16 Q. And what was Goran Jelisic's role in camp at
17 that period of time?
18 A. Kole was some kind of a warden, but Goran
19 Jelisic was authorised to do whatever he wanted to, as
20 well as Monika. He could go around and do whatever he
21 wanted to, and nobody was there to prevent him from
22 doing it.
23 Q. When you were released from Luka camp, where
24 were you taken?
25 A. We were transferred to Batkovic. There was a
1 camp in Batkovici.
2 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: Now we'll turn to the list
3 of some names. May I have Exhibit 12 placed before the
5 Q. With regard to Exhibit 12, under number 5 is
6 the name of Amir Novalic. Do you know anything about
7 this man?
8 This is Exhibit 13; sorry. Exhibit 13. And
9 the name under number 5.
10 A. Yes, I heard a story about Amir Novalic from
11 a young man who was killed during the war. He was at
12 the SUP building when this person was killed.
13 Q. The same document, but Number 36.
14 MR. LONDROVIC: My apologies to Your Honours
15 and to the Prosecution. My client is asking to be
16 excused to take medicine, and he has stomach pain.
17 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We'll wait for
18 Mr. Jelisic to go out, and then we'll take -- I think
19 he's going to have to leave the courtroom.
20 Mr. Jelisic, can you leave the courtroom,
21 please? And in that time we're going to continue with
22 the examination-in-chief, if the Defence does not
23 object to that. You can leave the courtroom,
24 Mr. Jelisic.
25 Any problem with that?
1 MR. GREAVES: It's for the defendant to
2 decide whether he objects, not us, and we have to take
3 instructions from him whether he agrees or not.
4 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes, yes,
5 that's correct.
6 Mr. Jelisic, do you authorise your Defence
7 counsel to continue with the examination in chief?
8 This is a --
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, the defence
10 should go on. I do not object to the continuation of
11 the proceedings at all.
12 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We thank you.
13 You may leave the courtroom. Please leave the
14 courtroom, Mr. Jelisic.
15 Please continue.
16 MR. TOCHILOVSKY:
17 Q. So number 36, Osman Vatic. What do you know
18 about this man?
19 A. This person was also with me at Luka, and
20 then we were transferred to Batkovici, and he was taken
21 from Batkovici to Brcko, I guess home, and we then
22 later heard that he was killed there in Brcko.
23 Q. So you heard that, but you didn't witness
24 that killing; is that correct?
25 A. Yes, I only heard about it. I was not
2 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: Your Honours, as far as
3 Exhibit 12 is concerned, I understand that the witness
4 had opportunity to look at it, and there are no marks
5 that he would recognise any name on that, so I have no
6 questions about this list, Exhibit Number 12.
7 Your Honours, I have no further questions.
8 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 Mr. Greaves?
10 Mr. Didic, you are now going to be asked
11 questions by Defence counsel for Goran Jelisic.
12 Mr. Greaves, are you going to conduct the
13 cross-examination? About how long do you need?
14 MR. GREAVES: Longer than 15 or 20 minutes,
15 I'm afraid. But what I'm going to try and do is divide
16 it into convenient sections, a small part today and
17 then that which I need on Monday, if that's acceptable
18 to Your Honours.
19 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] My colleague
20 wants to speak to me.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] What is the
23 total amount of time that you think you are going to
25 MR. GREAVES: An hour and a half, because
1 there is extensive --
2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I take the
3 liberty of reminding you, Mr. Greaves, that Counts 40
4 and 41 are absolutely clear. 40 and 41, beatings of
5 Amir Didic.
6 34: "Between about 20 May and 28 May 1992 at
7 Luka camp, Goran Jelisic beat the Muslim detainee Amir
8 Didic with a police baton, causing Amir Didic to lose
9 consciousness. By these actions, Goran Jelisic
10 committed, Count 40: A violation of the laws or
11 customs of war recognised by Article 3 of the Tribunal
12 Statute and Article 3(1)(a)(cruel treatment) of the
13 Geneva Conventions, Count 41: A crime against humanity
14 recognised by Article 5(i)(inhumane acts) of the
15 Tribunal Statute."
16 You have all your rights, Mr. Greaves. I
17 want it to be marked in the transcript, you have all
18 the rights to defend your client, but I would like to
19 recall you to Rule 90(G): "The Trial Chamber shall
20 exercise control over the mode and order of
21 interrogating witnesses," and that you have to bring in
22 the case with genocide.
23 "The cross-examination shall be limited to
24 the subject matter of the direct examination ..."
25 You need an hour and a half in order to
1 reinterrogate a victim who suffered physical beatings
2 that have been recognised and acknowledged by the
3 accused. The witness cannot be able to go home,
4 therefore, will not be able to go home.
5 So we can begin. It's now 15 after 1.00.
6 You have until 1.30, and then you have an hour and a
7 quarter left.
8 But I can tell you, Mr. Greaves, you must
9 remain within the scope of genocide as indicated under
10 Rule 90(H), and if you don't do that, I'm going to have
11 to recall this to you and make you go back to it.
12 The registrar says that Mr. Jelisic does not
13 wish to return but that he come back on Monday at 2.00
14 in order to hear the rest of your cross-examination,
15 Mr. Greaves.
16 Within the limits we have just set and with
17 full respect for the rights of the accused and the
18 rights of the Defence, please begin your
20 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much, Your
22 Cross-examined by Mr. Greaves:
23 Q. Mr. Didic, I want to ask you about the
24 circumstances of your arrest. You've described that as
25 having taken place on the 19th of May. Can you tell us
1 what it was that you were doing prior to the 19th of
2 May? The reason that I ask you that --
3 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Is this a
4 question which goes to the credibility of the witness,
5 because this was not taken up in the examination in
6 chief. Could you explain how it affects the
7 credibility of the witness, please?
8 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour has just read out
9 from the agreed statement that it was agreed that this
10 took place on the 12th or 13th of May. There is a
11 dispute as to the date on which this took place, and
12 that is a matter which properly goes to the credibility
13 of the witness, as to whether or not this witness is an
14 accurate, honest, and truthful witness. Therefore, for
15 that reason, I intend to ask him about the date on
16 which he says or claims that these events took place,
17 with Your Honour's leave.
18 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Well, let me
19 consult with my colleagues.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Very well, you
22 can ask the question.
23 MR. GREAVES:
24 Q. Mr. Didic, just before the Learned Judge
25 interrupted me, I was asking you about events in May
1 1992. You have claimed that the event took place on
2 the 19th of May, 1992. Can you tell us whether you
3 remember what you were doing in the period between the
4 1st and the 19th of May, 1992?
5 A. Between the 1st and 19th of May 1992, I was
6 in home in Palanka, which is where I lived.
7 The bridge was blown up on the 31st of May.
8 I was very tense. It was very tense. The refugees
9 arrived, and there were a lot of refugees in the town
10 where I lived. There were watches there, so people
11 were on guard duties, and this is where I was. People
12 were scared. And I was there until the 19th.
13 Q. What I want to ask you is this, and I want
14 you to deal with it, please. I suggest to you that you
15 were arrested much earlier than the 19th of May, as
16 early as the 11th or 12th of May.
17 A. No, sir. I was captured on the 19th of May.
18 It was a Tuesday afternoon.
19 Q. The persons who arrested you, were those
20 soldiers, or police, or militia, or what?
21 A. Approximately, there were six to eight men.
22 There were some in civilians, there were some in
23 camouflage uniforms, and there was one gentleman in a
24 plain police uniform with a short-sleeved shirt. It
25 was about 12.30, 1.00, between Celici and Koraj.
1 Q. Were you with anybody else? Were other
2 people detained at the same time as you?
3 A. Yes. There was a friend of mine, Senad
4 Ahmedbasic, called Trnka, and my mother and sister who
5 lives in Koraj. She was at my place, and she wanted me
6 to take her to Koraj because that's where she has a
7 family. Her daughter lived there and she lived there.
8 Q. The friend of yours that you mentioned, was
9 he a Muslim as well?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You were taken from the checkpoint manned by
12 these people to the principal police station in Brcko
13 or to a smaller one?
14 A. They took us to the principal police station
15 in Brcko, there is only one, and they took us to room
16 number 13. It was midway down the hallway to the
17 right. That's the room where they took us.
18 Q. In room 13, you've told us that there were a
19 number of Muslim detainees. Can you help us with this,
20 please? How many people were in the room when you got
22 A. There were four to five detainees. I
23 recognised one of them. He was Halid, the
24 veterinarian. I recognised him.
25 Q. Can you help us about his surname? Do you
1 know his surname?
2 A. I cannot recall his name. I know that his
3 first name was Halid. This is how I knew him before
4 the war, and this is still how I know him.
5 Q. Well, did you know where he worked, where his
6 surgery was for being a veterinarian?
7 A. I don't know where. They were all working in
8 the field, so he would come to Palanka. I noticed him
9 from before, so I knew him and I knew that he was a
10 veterinarian, but I wouldn't know where his surgery
12 Q. But was he also taken with you to Luka?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Is he still alive, as far as you know?
15 A. Yes, yes, he's alive, and he lives in Upper
16 Rahic. He continues in his job as a veterinarian.
17 Q. Were other Muslim detainees brought into the
18 SUP building, the police building, whilst you were
20 A. Yes. There were four to six of them -- I
21 cannot tell exactly -- and there were some additional
22 ones which were brought in. So they gathered about 13
23 to 15 persons, and then we were taken on foot to Luka.
24 Q. Did you know any of the ones who were brought
25 in after you?
1 A. No.
2 Q. How long did you remain at the SUP building
3 before being taken to Luka?
4 A. Two to three hours, approximately.
5 Q. When you got to Luka, you were placed in the
6 first hangar; is that correct?
7 A. Yes. First we were searched against the wall
8 of a hangar, and then we were led into the first hangar
9 and we were put into -- taken to the left-hand side
11 Q. When you were taken into the hangar, was it
12 empty or were there already people there?
13 A. The hangar has a sliding door to the right,
14 looking where this metal door is separating it. The
15 left-hand side was empty, and that's where we were
17 Q. So is it the case that there was nobody in
18 the hangar at all, or there was some but you were put
19 into a different part? I'm sorry, but I don't entirely
21 A. There were people in the other side of the
22 hangar. This side was empty. In the right-hand side,
23 in the corner, there was some things like socks and
24 shirts and things like that.
25 Q. Concerning the other people, how many other
1 people were there?
2 A. Approximately 90 to 100 in the other part of
3 the hangar. When we arrived, they were standing there,
4 and they sang.
5 Q. Did you know any of the people who were
6 amongst that group of approximately 90?
7 A. When we were moved to that other part of the
8 hangar, there were some people whom I knew. There was
9 a person from my village who had since moved and lived
10 in Brcko but who was born in my village.
11 Q. What was that person's name?
12 A. Osman Hasanbasic.
13 Q. Was he the only person that you knew?
14 A. There were others whom I knew from sight,
15 whom I did not know personally but whom I knew from
16 sight. When I saw them, I recognised them. I did not
17 know them personally.
18 Q. Was that group exclusively men or were there
19 women amongst the group?
20 A. They were exclusively men. Only men were
22 Q. This exclusively male group, would this be
23 right, that it ranged in age from, say, about 18 until
24 60 or 65; would that be right? Can you help us with
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. I meant to ask this at the beginning,
3 Mr. Didic, and help me with this if you can, please.
4 During or after the war, did you join the BiH army at
5 any stage?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did you volunteer or were you called up into
8 the army?
9 A. When I was released, I went home, and then I
10 joined the BH army in 1993.
11 Q. I don't want to know anything at all about
12 where you're living or anything like that, but are you
13 still in the BiH army or have you since left?
14 A. At the end of the war, I left the army.
15 Q. Before the war, had you taken any part in
16 political life at all? Had you joined any political
18 A. No. Before the war, I was not, and I wasn't
19 in any political party during the war, nor since.
20 Q. Thank you. You've anticipated my next
22 I'll return now, if I may, to Luka. What
23 time of day was it that you got there?
24 A. You mean at Luka?
25 Q. At Luka, yes. I'm sorry I didn't make that
1 clear, Mr. Didic.
2 A. I was brought to Luka from the SUP building
3 around 5.00, 5.30.
4 Q. That first evening that you were there, were
5 any people released from the detention facility, as far
6 as you knew?
7 A. No, I did not know of that because I didn't
8 see anything. It was growing dark when we were brought
9 in, so I couldn't see what was going on around.
10 Q. Were any others brought in after your group
11 which had been brought from the SUP building?
12 A. There were another few people who were
13 brought in also.
14 Q. Again, were they an exclusively male group?
15 A. Yes. There was one woman among them who was
16 with us in the hangar, but when Osman Vatic was brought
17 in, his wife Sena was also brought alongside, and she
18 was in the office over there.
19 Q. I meant to ask you this. The group that had
20 come with you from the SUP building, was that also of a
21 similar make-up to the group that was in the hangar
22 when you got there; in other words, all males between
23 ages of 16 and 60 or so?
24 A. Yes, only men.
25 Q. The group that was brought into Luka after
1 you, again was that men, 18 to 60?
2 A. Yes.
3 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Greaves, I
4 think we're going to stop at this point --
5 MR. GREAVES: Thank you.
6 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] -- because you
7 have not yet finished.
8 We will resume on Monday at 2.00.
9 Mr. Didic, you must remain available to the
10 International Tribunal for the weekend, and then we
11 will see one another again on Monday. Thank you for
12 having agreed to do this with as good grace as you
13 did. The Witness and Victims Unit will take care of
14 you during the adjournment.
15 Court stands adjourned, and we will resume on
16 Monday at 2.00.
17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
18 1.32 p.m., to be reconvened on
19 Monday, the 6th day of September,
20 1999, at 2.00 p.m.