1 Monday, 6th September, 1999
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 2.13 p.m.
4 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Please be
6 Mr. Registrar, have the accused brought in,
8 [The accused entered court]
9 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Good afternoon
10 to the interpreters, although I don't hear them yet,
11 since I can't see them. All right.
12 Good afternoon to Prosecution and Defence
13 counsel, to the accused.
14 Mr. Greaves, how do you feel? Do you feel
16 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much. Yes.
17 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Have you had a
18 good weekend? Mr. Jelisic, do you feel all right?
19 THE ACCUSED: [interpretation] Yes, I do, much
20 better. Thank you, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Very well. We
22 can have the witness brought in, and I think that
23 Mr. Greaves should finish the cross-examination of this
25 Mr. Registrar, have our witness brought in.
1 Here he is.
2 [The witness entered court]
3 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Please be
4 seated, Mr. Didic. This is a public hearing. Let me
5 remind you that you are still under oath. I hope the
6 weekend in The Hague was not too long for you. Did you
7 have a good weekend?
8 THE WITNESS: Yes, everything is all right.
9 Thank you.
10 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Were you able
11 to visit the city a little bit?
12 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did.
13 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Very well. If
14 you've gotten your strength back, you can now continue
15 to answer the questions that Mr. Greaves is going to
16 ask you, Mr. Greaves, the defence counsel for Mr. Goran
18 Mr. Greaves, please proceed. Did I make a
19 mistake? Please proceed.
20 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much, Your
22 WITNESS: AMIR DIDIC
23 Cross-examined by Mr. Greaves:
24 Q. Mr. Didic, I want to ask you now about the
25 interrogations concerning which you gave evidence on
1 Friday afternoon of last week.
2 Firstly, can you help me, please, about
3 this: When you were interrogated, in what topics were
4 those who interrogated you interested?
5 A. As I came from the area controlled by the
6 army of BiH, I don't know what it was called then, the
7 defence, they were asking me about its strength, about
8 weapons, how many people were there, what was going on
9 on the ground, who had a rifle, and things like that.
10 Q. By the time you had been arrested, had you in
11 any way taken part in military activities in that area?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Had you seen military activities about which
14 you could talk?
15 A. Combat activities were conducted 15
16 kilometres from my village.
17 Q. So is it right, therefore, that you were
18 unable in any way to answer the questions that you were
19 being asked?
20 A. It is, yes, because I knew nothing about the
21 forces or the Green Berets or anything.
22 Q. Let me ask you this: Is that what you told
23 them, that you knew nothing, or did you tell them
24 anything that they wanted to hear?
25 A. I told them I knew nothing, but the
1 interrogation and maltreatment went on. They beat me
2 and all the rest of it.
3 Q. So they didn't accept that you knew nothing
4 of what was going on. Did they give you a reason as to
5 why they didn't accept that?
6 A. I don't know. They thought that I knew
7 something, but I didn't. I was not involved in
8 anything and I knew nothing.
9 Q. Mr. Didic, I want now to ask you a little
10 more detail about the interrogations that you say were
12 A. Well, the interrogation was -- how should I
13 put it? Goran interrogated me two or three times,
14 asking me who was armed, who had a rifle, what was
15 going on up there, but I didn't know about that, and
16 the rest was as usual. He would take me out, beat me
17 with various objects, with batons, his feet, broke
18 Coca-Cola bottles against my head, and things like
19 that. That is the routine. The only thing he didn't
20 like was that I was a Muslim; that is how I understood
22 Q. Is this right, Mr. Didic: that, in fact, the
23 first interrogation that was conducted with you was on
24 the 19th of May, not the 20th?
25 A. The first day, the first day when I got
2 Q. Yes. According to you, although this is not
3 accepted by the Defence, according to you, you were
4 arrested on the 19th and taken to Luka on the 19th. So
5 what --
6 A. On the 19th.
7 Q. What I'm putting to you is that the first
8 interrogation conducted with you was on that day, the
9 first day that you were at Luka?
10 A. Yes, on the 19th of May.
11 Q. By somebody called Dragisa Tesic or Dragan
13 A. I don't know the names of people who took
14 us. There were two of them in multicoloured uniforms.
15 But I didn't know those people, so I cannot really say
16 what their names were.
17 Q. Mr. Didic, I suggest to you that it's not
18 right that you didn't know who it was. You told the
19 authorities in Bosnia-Herzegovina, when you gave them
20 an account of these matters, you told them that you'd
21 been interrogated not by two men in uniform but by a
22 man called Dragisa Tesic and two men in uniform; in
23 other words, three people in all, one of whom you did,
24 in fact, know?
25 A. I may have seen them, but I didn't know any
1 one of them personally.
2 Q. By comparison, what you told the Office of
3 the Prosecutor, in 1995, was that your first
4 interrogation had been on 20th of May and that had been
5 conducted by five people: two soldiers and three
6 civilians. Do you remember telling the Office of the
7 Prosecutor that?
8 A. I remember saying that there were three of
9 them when they interrogated me, but I do not know their
11 Q. What you were interrogated about were the
12 activities of what was going on and what was described
13 as the free territories?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. I want to turn now to the second
16 interrogation that was conducted with you. Again, you
17 told the authorities in Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1992 that
18 that had been on the 19th of May, not the 20th, and it
19 was conducted by Kole.
20 A. No. I don't think I stated that.
21 Q. Well, the -- would you like to have a copy,
22 in Bosnian, of the original statement from which I'm
23 working, that purports to have been made by you? Would
24 that assist you to refresh your memory, Mr. Didic? I
25 don't want to be unkind to you if you don't think you
1 said that. Would that help you?
2 A. [No audible response]
3 MR. GREAVES: Your Honours, I did not have an
5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not
6 hear the answer.
7 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Didic, did
8 you understand the question that Mr. Greaves asked
9 you? Do you want the question repeated?
10 A. Yes. Will you please repeat the question?
11 MR. GREAVES:
12 Q. Mr. Didic, I'm not wanting to take advantage
13 in any way of you and your memory. Do you recall
14 making two statements about matters concerning your
15 detention in Luka, one in 1992 to the
16 Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities; that is, the District
17 Court at Tuzla? Do you remember doing that?
18 A. When I came out I did give a statement in
19 1992, and then I gave no more statements until the end
20 of the war; that is, when people from The Hague
21 Tribunal came.
22 Q. So made a second statement to the Office of
23 the Prosecutor in 1995.
24 Would it assist you in answering the question
25 that I've asked about the second interrogation, and
1 that having been conducted by Kole, would it assist you
2 to see the statement that you made to the
3 Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities so that you can refresh
4 your memory?
5 A. Yes, I can have a look at the statement.
6 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, I've got a copy in
7 the Bosnian version. It has some underlinings in it.
8 I don't know whether my learned friend has a clean copy
9 or whether he objects to my showing him one with some
10 underlinings. I don't suppose the witness will
11 understand the underlinings.
12 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: No objection.
13 MR. GREAVES: Thank you. Would the usher
14 please come and assist me?
15 Q. Mr. Didic, I'd like you to look at that
16 document, please. First of all, would you just help me
17 by looking at each of the four pages that you've got
18 there? Does your signature appear on each page?
19 A. It does, yes.
20 Q. Do you recall that that was the document
21 which was produced for the District Court at Tuzla, by
22 you, in association with those who were interviewing
24 A. I gave that statement in 1992.
25 Q. I'd like you to look, please -- it may be on
1 the second page. My version is in English, so the
2 pages will be slightly different, Mr. Didic. Could you
3 look, first of all, for a paragraph which I think
4 starts: "After I told them everything"?
5 Yes. It may be in the English version it's
6 been translated slightly different, I'm told. It reads
7 like this, so you can find it: "After I told them
8 everything, they sent me back to the hangar, and some
9 20 to 30 minutes later we were taken out again one by
11 Can you see that phrase or something similar
12 to that?
13 A. Yes, I do. It's this first sentence here.
14 Q. Could you just read that entire section down
15 to: "From time to time we would hear singing and
16 gunshots to the air"? Just a couple of sentences
18 A. "When we told them all, they took us back to
19 the hangar some 20 or 30 minutes. They again took us
20 out one by one for interrogation. In the same building
21 and in another office, we were interrogated by Kole.
22 He was alone.
23 "After the interrogation we were taken back
24 to the hangar, and there we spent the night on the
25 concrete in the part of the hangar where there were
1 about 100 inmates. From that part we could hear
3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Didic. That's all I need for
4 the moment. Do you see there that what you are saying
5 to the Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities is that you were
6 interviewed by the man Kole but made no mention at all
7 about being interviewed by Goran Jelisic, Monika, and
8 on that occasion Dragan Tesic? Do you understand that
9 there is a difference between those two things?
10 A. It is quite possible there is a difference,
11 but I gave that statement and then after the war I
12 again gave this statement.
13 Q. When you were interviewed by the authorities
14 in Bosnia-Herzegovina -- I'm sorry, my learned friend
15 has an objection.
16 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes?
17 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: Your Honours, I would like
18 the Defence, when the Defence refers to prior witness
19 statements, to refer exactly to what is in the
21 For instance, the Defence referred to this
22 statement, that the witness never -- that the witness
23 said that he had been interrogated on May 19. If you
24 look at the Bosnian government statement, he never said
25 that. He said on May 19 he was taken to the camp but
1 never mentioned that he was interviewed on May 19.
2 The same with this last question. When the
3 witness was asked why he didn't mention that Goran was
4 at the interrogation, it is on page 2 of his Bosnia
5 statement where he says: "I saw Dragan Zivkovic, Goran
6 Jelisic, and Monika, who was short," and so on.
7 "As soon as I stepped outside, they started
8 to beat me."
9 So he mentioned that Goran was there, that
10 Goran beat him.
11 So I would like the Defence to refer exactly
12 to what the witness said in his statement to the
13 Bosnian government. Thanks.
14 MR. GREAVES: With great respect to my
15 learned friend, I'm doing exactly that.
16 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] All right. The
17 objection is sustained. Mr. Greaves, if you quote
18 something, you must quote the whole thing.
19 MR. GREAVES: With respect, Your Honour, I'm
20 just about to tell you that my learned friend is not
21 correct in what he says. I really don't want to get
22 bogged down in this, but I'm looking at the statement.
23 He says, quite clearly, arrested on May the 19th. He
24 then gives an account of what happened to him on May
25 the 19th, and after the passage which has just been
1 read out, after, he says this: "In the evening the
2 next day, about 2100 hours on May the 20th."
3 Unless I have missed something, the passage
4 before that clearly refers to the 19th of May. I'm
5 therefore asking about two interrogations and, in fact,
6 third, which this witness said to Bosnia-Herzegovina
7 happened on the 19th of May.
8 If there is a dispute that my reading of that
9 statement is incorrect, then of course I'm sure my
10 learned friend will put that to me, but unless the
11 words: "In the evening the next day, about 2100 hours
12 on May the 20th," means something completely different,
13 then what I'm asking about is the 19th of May.
14 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you,
15 Mr. Greaves. I would like to consult with my
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I want to turn
19 to the Prosecution and to the Defence and say that the
20 Judges would like, on the basis of Rule 98, that
21 whenever there is a contradiction shown by the Defence
22 or the Prosecution, that is, between the statements
23 made before the Tuzla Tribunal, I'm not sure why it was
24 a court, whereas one talks about the Tribunal at Tuzla
25 and other times the government, but let me go back to
1 my major problem.
2 The Defence, and let me turn to Mr. Didic,
3 has the basic right to try to find out whether there
4 were any contradictions in your statement and to put
5 your credibility in question.
6 I'm sure that you will explain that these are
7 the legal and judicial subtleties that are very
8 important for the accused.
9 As for the Judges, they have just deliberated
10 and consider that whenever there is an alleged
11 contradiction that the Defence wants to show between
12 the statements made by a witness before the Tribunal at
13 Tuzla, that is, Witness X, and the statements made to
14 the Office of the Prosecutor, the Judges would like
15 that an exhibit be tendered for these debates that will
16 also apply to the previous witness once those
17 statements indicate that they are from the Tribunal at
18 Tuzla, because the Judges are sensitive to the fact
19 that contradictions are being shown between the various
20 statements of the witnesses, but these statements were
21 given at different times, frequently in different
22 contexts, and the Judges are very mindful of the need
23 for consistency in these statements because, obviously,
24 over hours and hours of statements there may be, and
25 there certainly must be contradictions, some of which
1 apparently are very important.
2 I'm not speaking specifically of you,
3 Mr. Didic. This has happened with witnesses that
4 preceded you as well.
5 Therefore, I wanted to indicate the decision
6 of the Judges; that is, that in the three languages the
7 statements be provided -- I don't know who has them --
8 made before the Tribunal at Tuzla, which will allow the
9 Judges to evaluate the consistency of all the
10 statements and to reach an idea as to the specific
11 credibility of the witness.
12 You may now continue, Mr. Greaves, unless
13 there are any questions that you wish to ask.
14 MR. GREAVES: I do, Your Honour. It's a
15 practical one. As far as I know, these statements
16 exist in their original form; in other words, in the
17 form of the B/C/S language group, and I have a copy in
18 English. I don't know in what language Your Honour
19 would prefer to have these submitted to you, but I'm
20 only in a position to give you a copy in English, and I
21 don't know whether you would prefer to have it in
22 French. I say that's a practical issue, because the
23 Defence has absolutely no funds or facilities for
24 having things translated into French.
25 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I don't know
1 whether the Office of the Prosecutor has its own
2 version. I think the best thing for us would be to
3 have the B/C/S version -- to have it translated.
4 Mr. Tochilovsky, do you have those statements
5 that were given in Tuzla?
6 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: Your Honour, we have all
7 these statements. We'll check if they were translated
8 into French. If not, we'll send for translation into
9 French those statements which were already admitted
10 into exhibits.
11 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Very well. At
12 the end of the proceedings we will assign a number.
13 Registrar, we won't use numbers now, but once
14 the Prosecution has completed its case we will see the
15 reference numbers we need for the various exhibits, and
16 we can say this was the Tribunal's exhibit because it
17 is the Tribunal which was requesting them.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. It will be indicated as
19 is done in other cases.
20 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] All right. You
21 may now proceed, Mr. Greaves. Let me remind you that
22 you must continue to try to prove that the Prosecutor's
23 assumption of genocide, thesis of genocide, is not
24 correct, and I would like you to keep that firmly in
25 mind. Thank you.
1 MR. GREAVES: I'm sorry to harp on about the
2 practicalities. I just want to know what, (A), I'm
3 allowed to do with this witness; and, (B), whether you
4 need, for immediate use, a copy in English of what's
5 presently available, because Your Honour hasn't
6 indicated --
7 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] No. No, no.
8 Not at all. It's just pursuant to Rule 98, the Judges
9 have exhibits tendered, have them numbered, and the
10 number -- the version that will be translated into
11 French is supplied by the Office of the Prosecutor. It
12 will be translated into French.
13 So for the time being you have nothing
14 further to do, but you should be informed. That is
16 MR. GREAVES: And the other thing that Your
17 Honour didn't tell me was can I continue on the
18 assumption that what I have read out is a correct
19 reading of the statement? Your Honour didn't indicate
20 that. Otherwise, it's going to make it very difficult
21 for me.
22 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Well, we don't
23 have it in front of us, and the Judges will decide in
24 due course. I don't have the statement.
25 Mr. Tochilovsky says that you did not fully read the
1 quotation. It sort of went out in the air like that.
2 It's a bit more complicated for me.
3 I think the best thing would be for you to
4 continue with what you've done, and we will rule when
5 our minds are clear.
6 Perhaps both of you are right. Perhaps you
7 are reading passages which different people would
8 interpret differently. That's all I can tell you right
10 However, I do commit you to remain within the
11 scope of the examination in chief and not to lose sight
12 of the fact that your only right is to refute the
13 charge of genocide and never to forget that Goran
14 Jelisic acknowledged the counts and that he pleaded
15 guilty to those counts which inter alia concern this
17 Mr. Tochilovsky, do you want to intervene
19 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: Yes, Your Honour, just on
20 the same issue. Since we are going to send
21 translation, interpretation of those Bosnian statements
22 which the Defence use as the exhibits, my understanding
23 is that the Judges accepted that both the Bosnian
24 statement and the statement taken by the Office of the
25 Prosecutor are to be submitted together as exhibits.
1 In this case, both of them are to be submitted to the
2 French translation and it will take some time.
3 So we disclosed to the Defence those
4 statements in English because it was our obligation
5 under Rule 66. Now we'll submit them for French
7 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes, but during
8 this time I'd ask the registrar that as soon as they
9 have been provided in English that they be translated
11 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] And this holds
13 only when the Defence points out a contradiction in his
14 statements as compared with the statements made before
15 the Tribunal at Tuzla. We're not doing it for all
16 witnesses, but only for two where Mr. Greaves has
17 pointed out a number of contradictions.
18 In other words, with these statements which
19 must expressly be attached to the case file, the Judges
20 wanted to examine the total consistency of the
21 statements to see what is the witness's credibility.
22 Mr. Didic, do not lose your concentration.
23 This is a judicial argument, which is natural in a
24 tribunal, but you've understood the essential point;
25 that is, the Defence wants to bring out the
1 contradictions in your various statements. The
2 Prosecutor, who has called you as a witness, considers
3 that the contradictions were not properly quoted by the
4 Defence, and so the Judges are saying, "Give us the
5 statements and we will make our own evaluation."
6 Do you understand?
7 A. [No audible response]
8 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Very well.
9 Mr. Greaves, you may now proceed.
10 MR. GREAVES: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Q. Mr. Didic, I don't know how much you've
12 followed of that argument, but let me just take you
13 back to where we were. You had just read a short
14 portion of your statement made to the
15 Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities, and I was putting to
16 you that, in reference to that interview that you
17 related there, you were interviewed only by Kole, and
18 not by two soldiers and three -- I'm sorry, by Goran
19 Jelisic, Monika, Kole, and Dragan Tesic.
20 Can you help me about this: The matters
21 which you recounted in 1992, were they fresh in your
22 mind at the time?
23 A. I made that statement three months after my
25 Q. So is the effect of what you said, "Yes, they
1 were, indeed, fresh in my mind"? Is that what you're
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. If you need to look at your statement again,
5 please do so and please indicate that you would like to
6 do so. You said also, and I suggest this relates to
7 the 19th of May, that you were interrogated a third
8 time by three men whom you did not know on that
9 occasion, after which you were put into a different
10 part of the hangar.
11 A. That was on the 20th of May, not the 19th. I
12 was transferred to the other part of the hangar where
13 there was a sliding door.
14 Q. Is it right that some people were released at
15 about that time, Mr. Didic?
16 A. I'm not aware of anybody being released.
17 Q. Was one of them the manager of Agro Banka, a
18 grey-haired elderly man, a man whose first name was
19 Amir, a large black-haired corpulent man? Does that
20 help you?
21 A. All of us who were brought from the SUP were
22 there, and then those who were interrogated went to the
23 other hangar. It's not that we were all interrogated
24 at the same time; we went out one by one to the office,
25 and then those who had been interrogated were taken to
1 the other part of the hangar where the other inmates
3 Q. I want to ask you now, please, about this:
4 Is it right that as well as the name "Adolf" being
5 applied to Goran Jelisic, you also heard him being
6 referred to as, I think the word is, "Duke" or
7 "Vojvoda"; is that right?
8 A. Right. His friends addressed him that way.
9 I did not know Goran or Vojvoda. That's how they
10 referred to one another.
11 Q. As far as Goran Jelisic saying that he had
12 killed people at the Sava River, again, I suggest you
13 made no mention of that in your statement to the
14 Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities and that's something
15 that you've made up since that time, Mr. Didic.
16 A. No, sir, I did not make anything up. You
17 cannot give a detailed account of each and every hour
18 that was spent there and every single word that was
19 uttered, but I was there, I experienced all of that,
20 and I know what I'm talking about.
21 Q. Is this right, Mr. Didic: that as far as you
22 were concerned, the commander of the camp, whilst you
23 were there, was the man called Kole?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did you know that person's second name or did
1 you come to learn it?
2 A. Everybody called him Kole. I knew his first
3 and last name, but I forgot them. But I know he and
4 Monika were brother and sister or half-brother and
6 Q. If I said the name "Kosta Simonovic", would
7 that refresh your memory as to who he was?
8 THE INTERPRETER: There was no audible answer
9 from the witness. I'm sorry.
10 MR. GREAVES:
11 Q. Mr. Didic, I think I heard what you said, but
12 could you please repeat your answer so that the
13 interpreters can hear? I think they missed it.
14 A. Yes. Kole's name sounds familiar to me now
15 that I've heard it.
16 Q. So that Their Honours, when they have in
17 front of them the statements they've been asking for,
18 should know the circumstances, when you gave your
19 account to the Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities -- and
20 I'd like you to look, please, at the last paragraph of
21 your statement, if you'd be so kind, Mr. Didic -- when
22 you signed it, did the final paragraph have this: "At
23 the end, I state that the full text of this statement
24 was read to me, after having been formulated with my
25 participation. I'm ready to repeat everything I stated
1 here in court or before some international commission
2 which might be interested in the matter."
3 Is that what it says?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Just so we can have this clear, was it, in
6 fact, read over to you before you signed it?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And when it says "... having been formulated
9 with my participation," did you dictate it or was it
10 put into words by those who were asking the questions?
11 A. Some people put questions to me and I
12 answered them, and that was put down and that's it.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 JUDGE RIAD: Excuse me. Can I just hear this
15 answer again? He said, "Some people put questions to
16 me and I answered them, and that was put down ..."
17 Your question, in fact, was who put it down?
18 MR. GREAVES: Let me just look again at it.
19 JUDGE RIAD: Your question was: "... was it
20 put into words by those who were asking the questions?"
21 MR. GREAVES: I'm sorry. I asked him an
22 alternative question. I asked him if he dictated it or
23 was it put into words by those who were asking the
25 JUDGE RIAD: Well, his answer is not clear,
1 for the second part of your question.
2 MR. GREAVES: Yes. I took it that he had
3 clarified what I'd asked him, and his answer was, "I
4 was asked questions, I answered them, and it was the
5 answers which were put down" but --
6 JUDGE RIAD: Not in his words, because you
7 asked, was it put down in his words.
8 MR. GREAVES: I'm sorry. Let me clarify it
9 with him, if I may, please, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE RIAD: Good.
11 MR. GREAVES:
12 Q. Mr. Didic, does it come to this: that you
13 were asked questions by those who were writing out the
14 statement, you gave the answers, and it was your
15 answers which were written down and which you then
16 subsequently signed as being correct? Is that a fair
17 summary of what happened when you made that statement?
18 A. Yes.
19 MR. GREAVES: I hope this assists in
20 answering Your Honour's question, and I hope that I
21 made it clear.
22 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you.
23 MR. GREAVES:
24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Didic.
25 Mr. Didic, I'm coming close to the end. If I
1 may, I want to ask you about the time when you were
2 transferred, which I think was sometime in July. Is it
3 right that at that time, everybody at Luka was
4 transferred out of the facility?
5 A. I think that everybody was transferred to
6 Batkovici. There were eight or nine buses. We were
7 all transferred. I don't know if anyone stayed back.
8 I don't think anyone remained. I don't know whether
9 they brought in some other people afterwards.
10 Q. And is this right: that when you were
11 transferred, by that time, there were something like
12 450 detainees at Luka?
13 A. Yes, 400, 450. I wouldn't know the exact
14 number, but that's the number approximately that was
15 transferred from Luka to Batkovici.
16 Q. In the period when you were at Luka, would
17 this be right: that the population had changed in the
18 sense that people had been released, new people had
19 come in, and that that was a constant process
20 throughout your stay at Luka?
21 A. Before people from Brezovo Polje were brought
22 in, the situation was always, approximately, more or
23 less the same, 90 to 100 people, I don't know exactly,
24 until they brought in these people from Brezovo Polje.
25 From Brezovo Polje, they brought in about 350 persons.
1 I don't know exactly.
2 Q. Thank you for that. The people that you've
3 described as coming or being there before the arrivals
4 from Brezovo Polje, that 90 to 100 people, was that the
5 same 90 to 100 people that remained a constant group?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. The people who arrived from Brezovo Polje,
8 were they -- I'm sorry. Let me start again. The
9 people in the group before the arrivals from Brezovo
10 Polje, were they of all ages and sexes or restricted to
11 men between the ages of 18 and 60 or 18 and 65?
12 A. Men. They were men from 18 to 60.
13 Q. In relation to the group that was transferred
14 from Brezovo Polje, is that limitation the same for
15 them? Were they men between the age of 18 and 60/65?
16 A. There were younger ones too, children too.
17 There were children who were not even 18 yet.
18 Q. When you say "children," are you saying small
19 children or just young men who were teenagers?
20 A. I'm referring to teenagers. I'm not
21 referring to very young children, but I'm just saying
22 that they weren't even 18.
23 Q. Thank you. It seems that the word "teenager"
24 is a universal word, Mr. Didic.
25 MR. GREAVES: Would Your Honours just give me
1 a moment, please?
2 Q. Can you just give us a date when the people
3 from Brezovo Polje were brought in? Would that be
4 around June?
5 A. I cannot give you the exact date. They were
6 brought in in June, though.
7 Q. And were they put into the second hangar?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Again -- oh, I see the answer has come up on
10 the transcript.
11 Mr. Didic, I want to conclude, please, by
12 asking you this: You were able to say that you'd heard
13 of two of the people on the lists, Novalic and Osman
14 Vatic; is that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. There were two lists, were there, that you
17 were taken through, one long one and one slightly
19 A. I recognised those two names on those lists;
20 that's it: Novalic and Osman Vatic.
21 Q. And Amir Novalic, you heard that he'd been
22 killed at the SUP building. From whom did you hear
24 A. I heard about it from a man whom they brought
25 in to Luka, but he was killed during the war.
1 Q. Is that the only information you were told?
2 Were you told when he was killed or anything like that?
3 A. I do not know the exact date, but I heard
4 that story, that Amir Novalic was killed in SUP. I
5 don't know who killed him, though. I do not recall.
6 Q. As far as Osman Vatic was concerned, is this
7 right: He was at Batkovici with you?
8 A. Yes. He was in the Luka camp, and then we
9 were transferred together to Batkovici and then taken
10 home, but we heard subsequently that he had been
12 Q. Was he released before you?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Can you remind us of the date when you left?
15 I think it was October the 5th, is that right, when you
16 were exchanged?
17 THE INTERPRETER: We could not hear the
18 answer. We're sorry.
19 MR. GREAVES:
20 Q. Mr. Didic, you're dropping your voice. I
21 know it's not very easy, and we're very, very close to
22 the end. Can you just repeat your answer, please?
23 A. On the 5th of October, 1992, that is when I
24 was exchanged at Dornji Rahic.
25 Q. How long before you were exchanged would you
1 say that Osman Vatic left Batkovici camp?
2 A. Could have been a month and a half or two. I
3 wouldn't know the date because there were too many of
4 us there. I don't think anyone could remember the
5 exact date, but I know that he left quite a long time
6 before I was exchanged.
7 Q. Yes. Thank you very much, Mr. Didic.
8 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you,
9 Mr. Greaves.
10 Mr. Tochilovsky, please proceed. Do you have
11 any further questions?
12 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: Your Honours, I have no
13 further questions.
14 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 Judge Riad? Judge Rodrigues? No questions.
16 I have no questions.
17 Thank you, Mr. Didic. It wasn't too long,
18 but you did have to spend the weekend here. Thank you
19 very much for coming to The Hague. On behalf of my
20 colleagues, we wish you good luck in the rest of your
21 life, and we hope that you can try to forget these
22 tragic events. We are now going to take care of you.
23 Perhaps you need a few more moments to
24 prepare the next witness. The afternoon is going to be
25 long, so perhaps we should take a 15-minute break. All
1 right. We will take a break now.
2 --- Recess taken at 3.05 p.m.
3 --- On resuming at 3.34 p.m.
4 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We will now
5 resume the hearing. Have the accused brought in,
6 please. Please be seated.
7 [The accused entered court]
8 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Witness H,
9 please remain standing for a few moments. We're going
10 to call you Witness H because the Tribunal has granted
11 you all the protective measures that you've asked for.
12 We're going to ask you to take an oath that the usher
13 is showing you.
14 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
15 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
17 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you. You
18 may be seated. You have agreed that the name that was
19 shown you is, in fact, your name; is that correct?
20 Don't say it, though; just look at it. Do not say what
21 you see; simply say "Yes" if it is, in fact, your
23 Thank you. Thank you for having come --
24 A. Yes.
25 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] -- to the
1 International Tribunal as part of the trial here of
2 Goran Jelisic, who is in the accused's box on your
4 First you will answer questions that the
5 Prosecutor asks you. I'm sure this was explained to
6 you. After that you will be asked questions by Defence
8 Mr. Prosecutor, you may proceed.
9 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: [Interpretation] Your
10 Honour, may I have the usher's assistance in placing
11 the summary of the witness's statements in front of
13 WITNESS: WITNESS H
14 Examined by Mr. Tochilovsky:
15 Q. Witness H, is this the summary of your
16 statements that you had the opportunity to read?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Is this a correct summary of your
20 A. It is.
21 Q. Witness H, before the war did you live in
22 Mujkici in Brcko, before the war started?
23 A. I did, yes.
24 Q. Were you admitted to a local hospital on
25 May 4, 1992?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Were you then taken to Luka camp from the
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And what is the date? When were you taken to
7 A. The 11th of May.
8 Q. Where were you kept when you were in Luka?
9 A. The first hangar, the hangar which served for
11 Q. Do you remember whether there was a man by
12 the name Muhamed Bukvic in Luka?
13 A. There was, yes.
14 Q. How was the man treated in Luka?
15 A. When I saw him, I couldn't recognise him,
16 because he was so badly beaten that his head was
17 unrecognisable. He approached me and told me that he
18 was so-and-so, and he also said who it was who beat
20 Q. Who beat him?
21 A. According to him, he was mostly beaten by
22 Mr. Jelisic.
23 Q. Did he tell you why Jelisic beat him?
24 A. As one needed no reason to hit a man, we did
25 not discuss reasons, because it often happened even
1 without knowing who was coming that that person would
2 be beaten; that is, one simply did not ask why and why
3 he had been brought to Luka.
4 Q. Was a man by the name Kolar or Alija in
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you know who brought him to Luka?
8 A. He was brought by two soldiers escorting
9 Mr. Jelisic.
10 Q. Did Mr. Jelisic accuse Alija of anything?
11 A. He did. That man, I think he was in his 70s,
12 and his hand -- one of his hands, I don't remember
13 whether left or right, was bandaged. He (sic) said
14 that he was a sniper and that he'd been caught
15 somewhere beating Serb troops.
16 I believe that the man was old enough not to
17 be able to pick up a rifle, that is, to look through
18 the sights, let alone be a sniper at that advanced
20 Q. Did that 70-year-old tell you how he was
22 A. No. We did not talk much, as he really was
23 not up to it. When he -- he was beaten severely when
24 he came back to the hangar, and he could not talk much,
25 but he said that they found him somewhere in the
1 street, and that was all that we learned from him.
2 Q. Did you see who beat Alija?
3 A. Yes. I don't know who beat him before that,
4 before he was brought into the hangar, but I do know,
5 since Alija was sitting next to me, that Mr. Jelisic --
6 and I don't know where he got that particular tool, it
7 was a short metal shovel with a wooden handle, and he
8 hit him a couple of times. I repeat, I did not see,
9 before he entered, whether he had been beaten or not.
10 Q. Was Alija then brought back to the hangar
11 after he was beaten?
12 A. Alija was lying down next to us; rather, next
13 to me, next to Bukvic; there were two or three
14 detainees more there -- I remember a name. I don't
15 remember other names -- for awhile.
16 I can't remember whether it was an hour, an
17 hour and a half, Alija, again escorted by two uniformed
18 men, was taken out from the hangar; and across the
19 hangar was Mr. Jelisic, and I don't know whether it was
20 deliberately or by accident, met him and hit him a
21 couple of times with a metal rod. I suppose -- I guess
22 that it was a rod with which you open a manhole or
23 something for water supply.
24 Mr. Jelisic had a car parked there; rather,
25 he had come in a car. So he entered the car and left
1 with Monika, in the direction of the petrol station.
2 A few minutes later, the old gentleman was
3 brought into the hangar by two soldiers. I remember
4 both of them. One had yellow hair. We learnt later
5 that he came from Trnova, in the municipality of
6 Bijeljina, and just deposited him in the same place
7 from which they had taken him away.
8 The man was all battered and could not move.
9 He gave no sign of life and he was already beginning to
11 I had a piece of cardboard with me. We were
12 all sitting down on a cardboard. I tried to somehow
13 push it under his head, but he issued a death throe and
15 May I mention that after a certain time
16 Mr. Jelisic drove in with his car, into the hangar, and
17 there he ordered a soldier, and there were two of them,
18 to bring some water, a bucket of water. That soldier
19 who brought the bucket with water threw it over Alija's
20 body, but since the death must have occurred before
21 that, the fact that the water was poured over him did
22 not change anything. The man did not move. But
23 Mr. Jelisic then said, "Old body -- old heart and could
24 not endure."
25 Q. Thank you, Mr. H. Was a man, Stjepan Itric,
1 detained in Luka?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Who brought this man to the camp?
4 A. I don't know who brought him to the hangar,
5 but it was Jelisic who brought him into the hangar. I
6 know Stjepan Itric personally, as we were next-door
7 neighbours. I think we've known one another for
8 30 years or so.
9 Q. Mr. H, did Jelisic accuse Itric of anything?
10 A. Yes. As he was brought into the hangar,
11 Mr. Itric was beaten on the head. Naturally, I do not
12 know about other parts of the body because we could not
13 see them. But Jelisic, as they came into the hangar,
14 told Mr. Itric to sit down on a chair in the left
15 corner, from which nobody had got up yet, and accused
16 him of having raped a 7-year-old Serb child.
17 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Just a moment,
19 Witness H, when you answer the questions,
20 please turn to the Judges. Thank you.
21 You may continue, Mr. Tochilovsky.
22 MR. TOCHILOVSKY:
23 Q. Witness H, you mentioned that you knew
24 Stjepan Itric before the war. Can you characterise the
1 A. Yes. I knew him personally. At that time,
2 he could have been about 40 or so, and I really doubt
3 whether he was guilty of what he was being accused of.
4 Knowing the man, he was a man who we never saw with a
5 woman, let alone doing what they were charging him
6 with. He was a very withdrawn person.
7 Meanwhile, after Mr. Jelisic went out, I was
8 not far from Itric, so I went to him and asked him
9 about the circumstances that he had been brought
10 there. He began to explain, we were whispering or
11 talking very softly, and he said that he'd gone out to
12 buy cigarettes for his father, and he had crossed the
13 railway tracks, it was about 500 metres from his home,
14 and that that is where he was arrested.
15 Q. Was Stjepan Itric beaten in Luka?
16 A. Yes, he was rather badly beaten, battered. I
17 believe there was a soldier called Dragan, I think, in
18 a multicoloured uniform, and he would come with another
19 soldier. I can't remember how many times they came
20 that night. They would take him out, but he always
21 said -- naturally, as much as one could talk -- that he
22 was always in Mr. Jelisic's office and that all the
23 beatings that he got, according to him, came from that
24 particular gentleman. But there was also side beatings
25 as well by those soldiers who would take him out.
1 Q. Do you know the fate of this man?
2 A. I do, unfortunately. He was taken away one
3 night, I believe it was the second night, and we heard
4 screams and cries that he was not guilty of what he was
5 being charged with. But Itric is no longer among the
6 living, and we do not know the circumstances, whether
7 he died due to the injuries he received or whether he
8 was shot dead.
9 Q. Witness H, he was a wall painter from the
10 hospital in Luka?
11 A. Yes. Unfortunately, there were two house
12 painters. One was killed before. I don't know who.
13 The other house painter was with us and he was
14 distributing the food, the food, I mean, which we got
15 there in Luka. That evening, after the evening meal --
16 I couldn't remember what time it was -- a soldier came
17 and asked for the person who had distributed milk that
19 May I mention that that evening, we were
20 issued milk and cornmeal. I remember that very well.
21 I just happened to be next to a pile of socks, I was
22 looking for a pair of socks for myself, and I saw
23 Mr. Jelisic outside by the door. The gentleman who had
24 been called out went out, and one could hear only two
25 blunt shots. I could not see who killed him, whether
1 it was Mr. Jelisic, from his pistol which he always
2 carried, or somebody else, but we did see the dead body
3 on the road.
4 Q. Was there any particular sound? Did you
5 recognise the shot when the person was killed?
6 A. It was the first time I heard a sound like
7 that, but those who had been in Luka for some time
8 already told me that that was the usual sound of a
9 Scorpio with a silencer. But I'd never even seen that
10 pistol before, nor had I heard a shot fired from it.
11 This is what other detainees told me.
12 Q. Were you interrogated by Dragisa Tesic in
14 A. Tesic, yes.
15 Q. Did Tesic tell you anything about your
16 release from Luka?
17 A. Yes. As I entered Mr. Tesic's and
18 Kavrinovic's office, Mr. Tesic, (redacted)
20 (redacted), he came out and told
21 me not to worry, that he would rescue me but that he
22 would have to consult Mr. Jelisic about it, after all.
23 I didn't know what particular duties they performed,
24 but I realised, from what Mr. Tesic had told me, that
25 the commander of Luka -- that is how I saw it -- was
1 Mr. Jelisic.
2 Q. Was there an announcement in Luka that there
3 would be no further killings in the camp?
4 A. I must apologise first if I go wrong with the
5 dates. It's quite possible because, after all, seven
6 years have elapsed since then. But I believe it was
7 around the 16th of May that Mr. Jelisic came and said
8 that there would be no more killings at Luka.
9 Nonetheless, there was yet another case of somebody
10 being taken away, and that was Suljo Pezerovic. He was
11 wearing pyjamas because he had been brought from the
12 hospital, and unfortunately he is no longer among the
14 Q. Was there a detainee by the name of Ohro in
16 A. Yes. Mr. Ohro Ozegovic was with us at Luka.
17 I don't know when he came. But one evening,
18 Mr. Ozegovic left the hangar and, after a certain
19 period of time, came back in a customs officer's
20 uniform with a baton in his hand, escorted by
21 Mr. Jelisic. Presumably, he must have been given
22 instructions as to what to do to the rest of us
23 detainees or prisoners. I heard with my own ears, and
24 all the other detainees did, Mr. Jelisic say, "Mind
25 you, don't you try and say anything to Mr. Ozegovic."
1 It was a frequent scene. Mr. Ozegovic would
2 go out to Mr. Jelisic, and there he would give him a
3 drink or offer him a certain dose of alcohol, I don't
4 know the quantity, and then he would come back to the
5 hangar, beat us. I myself was beaten one night by
6 Mr. Ozegovic. That evening, Mr. Jelisic entered in a
7 vehicle with his lights on, stopped, and we, that is,
8 all the detainees, had to pass in front of those car
9 lights. I don't know whom he was looking for, but
10 Mr. Ozegovic battered quite a number of our Bosniak
11 fellows, guys.
12 Q. Witness H, when were you released from Luka?
13 A. I was released on the 27th of May, sometime
14 in the morning, around 9.00, 10.00. I can't remember.
15 Q. Were you then rearrested and detained in
16 Batkovici camp?
17 A. Unfortunately, on the 13th of July, not only
18 I, but everybody who happened to be in the locality of
19 Es were taken to Batkovici. I believe there were two
20 buses that day.
21 Q. Did you see Goran Jelisic when you were in
23 A. In the latter half of September, I don't
24 remember the date, somebody may have noted it down, but
25 Goran Jelisic came to the camp at Batkovici. Why?
1 Because he was looking for detainees from Luka who
2 would testify, according to those who went in front of
3 Novi Sad Television cameras, that Mr. Jelisic had not
4 ill-treated or killed anyone at the Luka camp.
5 Among the witnesses whom Mr. Jelisic was
6 looking for was Mr. Ozegovic, who had been to Luka, and
7 I already explained what he had been doing at Luka. So
8 Fikret, called Pikric, also volunteered, and he had not
9 been to Luka, and Pajzer, I don't know his name, from
10 Zenica, who had not been to Luka.
11 Q. Now we will turn to the list of names you
12 were shown prior to your testimony.
13 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: I would ask the usher to
14 place in front of the witness Exhibit 12 and then
15 Exhibit 13.
16 Q. First, Exhibit 12. On page 1, you can see
17 the name Sakib Becirevic. Do you know the fate of this
19 A. I know he was killed, but I don't know
20 where. His nickname is Kibe. He was a butcher. Yes,
21 we knew him well.
22 Q. You didn't see the killing, but you heard
23 about it; is that correct?
24 A. On the 11th is when I came to Luka, and
25 according to what I was told, he had been killed in the
1 barracks, but I did not see it with my own eyes.
2 Q. The next name on the page is Midhat Bukvic.
3 What do you know about this man?
4 A. Midhat Bukvic could have been in his 40s or
5 40-odd. He was the brother of the Bukvic we mentioned
6 who was so badly battered at Luka. He lived in my
7 neighbourhood, (redacted)
9 Q. Do you know what happened to him?
10 A. According to his brother, he was killed at
11 Luka. I don't know the date.
12 Q. On the same page, Stipo Glavosevic.
13 A. I think that all of those who were at Luka at
14 the time knew Stipo. I have heard about him. I knew
15 Stipo personally. Stipo perhaps lived 100 metres away
16 from Mr. Midhat Bukvic. He was a lawyer by
17 profession. According to detainees at Luka, his ears
18 were cut off, and he was killed at Luka in the same
19 hangar where I was taken to.
20 Q. Page 2 of the same exhibit. In the middle of
21 the list, you can see the name Sadik Jukic.
22 A. Yes. We called him Sadan. He could have
23 been born in 1932 or 1933. (redacted)
24 (redacted). He was a pensioner. I am told that he was
25 killed in Mujkici, (redacted), but
1 I do not know who could be the perpetrators.
2 Q. Next after Jukic is Jusuf Kapkovic.
3 A. Jusuf Kapkovic is a man who lived at Klanac,
4 had his own house there. He had five or six children
5 and I know them. I believe it was on the 16th of June
6 that he left and never came back. We do not know where
7 he went, but he's gone.
8 Q. On the same page, Kartal Rasim and Kartal
9 Kasim, what do you know about these two men?
10 A. Two brothers, Kasim and Rasim Kartal. Rasim
11 Kartal's wife worked at the same place where I worked.
12 I know both of them very well. They were athletes.
13 They were sportsmen in Brcko.
14 According to people who stayed at Luka, they
15 were killed on the same day at Luka, but I must mention
16 that I was not at Luka at the time.
17 Q. On the same page, Sadik Kombic.
18 A. Sadik Kombic lived in Novo Brcko. His
19 family's still in Rahic, as his are in Donja Rahic. He
20 lived near my mother's. I knew him since childhood. I
21 believe we're almost of the same age. There may be a
22 year or two of difference. He disappeared and I do not
23 know who killed him.
24 Q. Next page, page 3. The middle of the list
25 you can see a name, Muranjkovic Galib.
1 A. I think that about 70 per cent of Brcko
2 inhabitants knew Galib Muranjkovic, because he was a
3 very prominent citizen of Brcko. However, according to
4 his son, who was detained at Batkovici, and I can't
5 remember the date, he was taken from Janja, and there
6 all trace of him is lost.
7 Q. On the same page, Pezerovic, Ibrahim; and
8 Pezerovic, Sefko. What do you know about these two
10 A. Two brothers. One, Ibrahim, worked the same
11 place as I did, and Sefko was with the railways
13 Around the 15th or 16th of May they left home
14 through Rijeka, and there our people, I mean our men
15 from security, stopped them. They went home to collect
16 some of their effects, but they do not seem to have
17 either taken their effects or ever come back again.
18 Q. Pezerovic Suljo.
19 A. I've already mentioned, when describing Luka,
20 I've already mentioned Suljo Residovic [Error in
21 realtime]. He was a man who was brought from the
22 hospital because he was wounded somewhere. He was a
23 driver. I don't know the company he worked for, but he
24 arrived there in blue pyjamas. He arrived at Luka
25 wearing blue pyjamas. After the 15th or 16th, I cannot
1 recall the date, he was taken away and never came
3 Q. On the same page --
4 MR. GREAVES: I think the transcript has used
5 a different name for the surname of the man that this
6 witness mentioned. I think it's incorrect. Can my
7 learned friend indicate that he was asking about Suljo
9 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: [Interpretation] Suljo
10 Pezerovic, yes.
11 Q. The next name is Pobric Senad.
12 A. Senad Pobric, Sefko Pezerovic, Brahim
13 Pezerovic, they're all of my mother's neighbours.
14 Senad was a child -- I don't mean child
15 really, but much younger than I am. He disappeared
16 early in May. Where and how, I don't know, but I know
17 his mother. His mother lives in the area of Rahic,
18 that is area of Palanka, with a daughter.
19 Q. The last page of this document, the name
20 Vugrincic Franjo.
21 A. Yes. A man who lived at Meraje. He was a
22 repair mechanic for electrical appliances. He was
23 taken away from Marija. When, I don't know, but he
24 does not be among the living any more.
25 Q. Let me turn to Exhibit 13 now. At number 2
1 there is the name Ahmet Hodzic. What do you know about
2 this man? What happened to him?
3 A. A man who was highly regarded by all. At
4 that time he also had a thriving business. He lived in
5 a part of Brcko called Mujkici. We call it that way.
6 When he was killed, I do not know, but
7 according to the stories of those who were detained in
8 the mosque, he was taken away and never returned.
9 Q. Number 3, there is the name Husein Kaknjo.
10 What do you know about his fate?
11 A. Unfortunately, I know Husein Kaknjo very
12 well, since I bought a plot of land in Mujkici from
13 that gentleman to build a house of my own.
14 I heard that he remained there in Brcko, that
15 he's no longer among the living, but I'm telling you
16 that at I think he was well over 70.
17 Q. Do you know what happened to him?
18 A. He's not among the living. Nobody talks
19 about him. I go to Brcko very seldom, but I heard that
20 he was taken away because they claimed that he was --
21 he was a man who made major contributions, lots of
22 money, to the SDA party. At any rate, he's no longer
23 among the living.
24 Q. Numbers 6 and 7, there are names of Kasim
25 Kartal and Rasim Kartal. What do you know about those
1 two men?
2 A. I think that in my previous statement I said
3 that Kasim and Rasim were two brothers and that they
4 were killed in Luka. You have my statement from Luka.
5 Q. Number 16, there is the name Sakib
7 A. Yes. That's Kibe.
8 Q. So this is the Kibe you gave testimony about
10 A. Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes. That's the man.
11 We all called him Kibe. I didn't even know that Sakib
12 was his real name. He was a butcher.
13 Q. Number 17, Sakib Edhemovic.
14 A. Sakib Edhemovic. One of the best surgeons in
15 the canton of Tuzla. We all knew him as a physician.
16 During the war he stayed in Brcko. They say
17 that he was killed in Brcko. I did not see that.
18 Q. Number 23, Vasif Sulejmanovic.
19 A. Vasif Sulejmanovic had a private business.
20 He owned a TV station in Brcko.
21 Vasif remained in Brcko. They say that he
22 was often seen in Brcko with a white armband of some
23 kind, but afterwards he was not seen. What happened to
24 him, that I do not know.
25 Q. And number 27, there is the name Muhamed
1 Zelenjakovic. What do you know about this man?
2 A. Yes. Muhamed Zelenjakovic worked at the
3 hospital as a barber. I know him personally. I know
4 him well. I know all three brothers well. All three
5 were barbers. Two of them had barber shops of their
6 own and he was employed in the hospital. But he
7 remained there with his son.
8 He is no longer among the living. His son is
9 no longer among the living.
10 Q. Number 33, Himzo Kevric. Do you know what
11 happened to this man?
12 A. Himzo Kevric was in charge of the Novi Dom
13 shop across the street from the bank. All of us in
14 Brcko know him. Well, not everybody, but 90 per cent
15 of us at least. All adults know him. He retired just
16 before the war.
17 He stayed in his own home, the one that he
18 had in the Serb part of town, together with
19 Mr. Sejdalija Muminovic.
20 People say -- I heard this -- he was killed
21 on the 16th of June, in his basement. I wish to
22 mention that I was not there and I could not go there
23 at the time, but I heard that story. At any rate, both
24 gentlemen are no longer among the living.
25 Q. You've just mentioned Sejdalija Muminovic.
1 Is that the name under 34?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Number 36, Osman Vatic. Do you know the fate
4 of this man?
5 A. I don't know. I would kindly ask the Court
6 to allow me to go back to Luka once again as far as
7 Osman Vatic is concerned.
8 Osman Vatic is a respectable lawyer in
9 Brcko. He was highly respected by all. He was brought
10 into Luka. He was put on a chair. As I say, I cannot
11 remember the date. Mr. Jelisic walked in after him and
12 said, "This is man who gave 50.000 marks for the
13 SDA party so that it could arm itself in order to kill
14 the Serbs."
15 I personally saw Osman Vatic in Batkovici as
16 well. He was relieved from Batkovici at the end of
17 September. I cannot recall the date. He was killed in
18 front of his own house.
19 Q. Do you know who killed him? Do you know any
20 details about that killing?
21 A. There were different stories going around,
22 but I'm not well-informed and I cannot give any other
23 information as to who killed him.
24 Q. Thank you, Mr. H.
25 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: I don't have any further
1 questions, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you,
3 Mr. Tochilovsky.
4 Witness H, as I've already told you, you will
5 now be asked some questions by the Defence.
6 Let me turn to you, Mr. Greaves. Do you also
7 intend to call the credibility of this witness in doing
8 your cross-examination in respect of inconsistencies
9 with the previous statements that he gave?
10 MR. GREAVES: I'm not going to go quite as
11 far as that. I'm going to just ask him about his
12 memory and his ability to remember dates and detail.
13 So it's not quite the same line of cross-examination as
15 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Do you know
16 about how much time you're going to need, about?
17 MR. GREAVES: I would think about 40 minutes,
18 but I hope to keep it a bit shorter than that, but
19 please don't grumble if I --
20 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Very well.
21 MR. GREAVES: (Inaudible)
22 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Since this is
23 your initial approximation, which is less than the
24 hour, I'm not going to take you literally. You know,
25 we apply our rules here with a degree of flexibility.
1 Please begin.
2 Cross-examined by Mr. Greaves:
3 Q. Mr. H, I'm going to ask you some questions.
4 Please will you help me in this way: If you do not
5 understand the question that I ask you, please don't be
6 shy; stop me, tell me you don't understand it, and I'll
7 try and rephrase it so that it's a better asked
8 question. All right. Do you agree to do that with
10 A. Okay.
11 Q. Thank you. Mr. H, we're now some seven years
12 on from the events -- seven years plus on from the
13 events of May 1992. Would this be fair: that in the
14 intervening period, some of the detail of dates and
15 places and so on may have become, in your own mind,
16 mixed up and you may have made mistakes about them?
17 Would that be fair? It would be understandable if that
18 were the case.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. That's possible?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. The reason that I ask you that is that in
23 evidence today, you've told us that you went to Luka
24 detention facility on the 11th of May, but when you
25 gave an account of this matter to the authorities in
1 Bosnia-Herzegovina, you indicated to them it was the
2 13th of May. Is it possible that you were, in fact,
3 mistaken and it may have been the later date that you
4 went to Luka?
5 A. No. I doubt that I made a statement to
6 anyone saying that it was on the 13th. I know that it
7 was a Monday when I went to the hospital on the 4th of
8 May, and I know that it was a Monday, the 11th, when I
9 came in Luka. I don't know who I gave that kind of a
10 statement to.
11 Q. Nothing very much may turn on it, but it's
12 just -- really just to see whether you may be incorrect
13 as to how long you were in Luka.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. The reason I'm asking is because we have your
16 statement that you made to the Bosnia-Herzegovina
17 authorities and it says 13th of May, but you think the
18 earlier date is correct?
19 A. Well, let me tell you. On the 13th of May
20 or, rather, when I got out, two or three days later
21 they asked me, perhaps, but I wish to mention that
22 never in any statement I made to any authorities or any
23 investigators did I give such a statement. I remember
24 exactly which date and which day it was when I was
25 arrested or, rather, when I was taken out of hospital,
1 because I was a patient. I was a sick man. I remember
2 my release very well as well.
3 Q. All right. Mr. H, help me about this,
4 please: When you first got to Luka camp, were you
5 accompanied by others?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. When you arrived there, what time of day was
9 A. We came in the morning, sometime around
10 10.00, 9.00 or 10.00 in the morning. I can't
11 remember. There were eight of us and a woman. All of
12 us were sick persons, in pyjamas.
13 Q. When you arrived at Luka, is this right: You
14 were shown initially into the hangar where other people
15 were being detained?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. By people being detained, who were already
18 there before you, how many people were there before
20 A. As far as I could see, perhaps three or four
21 in that part when I got in.
22 Q. And you spent about a fortnight or a bit more
23 than a fortnight in the facility. During that time,
24 did the population, if I may call it that, in terms of
25 numbers, change at the facility? In other words, did
1 some people get released, and other people, were they
2 brought in so that the numbers were ever-changing?
3 A. Yes. Yes. This happened very often, that
4 some people would be released and would go home -- I
5 don't know whether they would be home or elsewhere --
6 and others would be brought in. I can even say to you
7 that, regrettably, there were women with children that
8 were brought in from their homes.
9 Q. In general, Mr. H, is this right: that by
10 far, the majority of prisoners, detainees, were men,
11 whether fit or unfit, like yourself, as it were, but
12 men between the ages of 18 and 60 or 18 and 65? Would
13 that be fair?
14 A. The majority, yes, but I wish to mention to
15 you that there were also men over 70 and even women. I
16 told you a minute ago that there were even women with
17 children there.
18 Q. Of course, and I was just going to come to
19 them. Is this also right, Mr. H: that some people
20 came and were detained only for a very short period,
21 sometimes came in and went out the same day or were
22 released within two or three days, and others were kept
23 for longer periods; would that be fair?
24 A. Certainly, yes, there were men who came
25 together with me from the hospital. There was a man
1 named Mujo. I can't remember his last name. He was
2 released on the same day. Very often in the morning,
3 they would call out a few names and release these
4 persons, and there were some people who were released
5 within the scope of an hour during the same day.
6 Q. And the women and children whom you've
7 described, in general, were they released almost
9 A. I remember a family or, rather, two families,
10 it's the Ramovic family, where all the family members,
11 women and children included, I think they were with us
12 for six or seven days. We all slept together. The
13 other women, I think, came after the 16th of June.
14 They were at the entrance into the hangar on the
15 right-hand side. One was from Mujkici, Mirsada, and
16 they were released after a day or two.
17 Q. Help us about this, please: In the period of
18 your detention at Luka, can you describe, on average,
19 how many people were detained on any one day at the
21 A. A few minutes ago, we said that it was very
22 difficult to tell because the number of people varied,
23 and it is difficult to tell. I can say that the
24 hangar, the one on the right-hand side, was full. We
25 never counted the people who were there. We counted
1 those who left and never returned, and where they went
2 to, that, I do not know.
3 Q. I'd like now to turn to this, please: Were
4 you interrogated at Luka?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. On how many occasions were you interrogated?
7 A. Twice.
8 Q. Can you tell me this, please, Mr. H: Before
9 the war began in May 1992, had you taken any part
10 yourself in political life in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
11 A. I was never interested in politics. I had a
12 very good job in a work organisation where I worked
13 quite a bit, and I was never active as far as political
14 parties are concerned. Before that, I was in the
15 former League of Communists or party, but I was only a
17 Q. Just so that we can be clear about this,
18 would this be a fair comment, and if it's not, tell me
19 immediately: Membership in the League of Communists
20 was sometimes helpful in terms of one's career
21 prospects. It didn't necessarily mean a strong
22 attachment to the ideals of the party.
23 A. Since I did already have a career, I did not
24 need political structures of the party in order to make
25 a career for myself. I already had a career.
1 Q. All right, Mr. H.
2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Please face the
3 Judges when you give your answers. Thank you.
4 MR. GREAVES:
5 Q. Mr. H, when you were interrogated, who was it
6 who interrogated you?
7 A. Once I was interrogated by Mr. Tesic, but the
8 first time, I was interrogated by some man called Sasa,
9 as I later found out. I don't know where he was from,
10 but I know that all the things I had -- and I'm
11 probably not the only one to say this -- all the things
12 I had that were any good, of any value, money, my
13 watch, wallet, whatever, I had to leave with Mr. Sasa
14 for safekeeping, and we know what kind of safekeeping
15 that is.
16 The other time, I was interrogated by
17 Mr. Tesic, and that is all as far as interrogation is
19 Q. Mr. Tesic, was he the person who interrogated
20 you on the second interrogation or the first one?
21 A. The second.
22 Q. On the first interrogation, apart from an
23 interest in your valuables and so on, what else was the
24 subject of that interrogation, Mr. H?
25 A. The subject was my arrival, my pre-war
1 occupation. Another subject was who was rich in Brcko,
2 who had lots of money, and a subject was how to reach
3 these people.
4 This gentleman, Sasa -- I don't know whether
5 this is his name or nickname -- took the money of those
6 people whom he interrogated, but he also wanted all
7 these people to give their money to him of their own
8 free will. I had a bit of trouble, unfortunately,
9 because he blackmailed me. He said that by the next
10 day, by 14.00, I should bring him 2.500 marks. If I
11 didn't do so, he would kill me. However, I was
12 fortunate enough, or perhaps to the regret of the
13 others, he came the next day -- I don't know whether he
14 came because of me or because of some other person, I
15 don't know , but at any rate, he took away a prisoner
16 who never came back.
17 Q. As far as your second interrogation was
18 concerned, that was conducted by a police inspector,
19 Mr. Tesic?
20 A. Yes. These were probably regular
21 interrogations. I did not consult the other persons
22 who were interrogated. (redacted)
23 (redacted). Even while he was interrogating me and as
24 he was going out into the hall, he mentioned to me in
25 passing where my family was. This same Mr. Tesic, on
1 the 27th of May, probably with the acquiescence of the
2 commander of the camp, or whatever he was called, gave
3 me a document stating that I could leave Luka. I have
4 this document until the present day.
5 Q. Apart from the issue of your release, was he
6 asking about people who were involved in the SDA,
7 people who were involved in military activities, people
8 who were in the army, topics of that sort?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Was there an occasion when you were asked
11 about your family, particularly with a view to finding
12 out whether any of your family were in the military?
13 A. Yes. He asked me how many children did I
14 have; (redacted)
17 Q. You've just told us that you were given a
18 pass and that you still have that document.
19 Whereabouts is that document?
20 A. I can show it to you, if you like. Here it
21 is. I can make a present of it also because it's a
22 copy. I don't need it.
23 Q. I wonder if I might have a look, please.
24 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation]
25 Mr. Tochilovsky, this is a Prosecution witness. What
1 is your opinion? We are discussing a document
2 independently of what the Judges can see. What is your
3 opinion about this?
4 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: Your Honour, before giving
5 an opinion about the attachment of this document as an
6 exhibit, we would like to see it first, if the Defence
7 requests it as an attachment, but we don't --
8 MR. GREAVES: Perhaps I can just go quickly
9 to the heart of it. Perhaps I can have a look at it.
10 If there's anything I want to ask about it, then I will
11 proffer it and we'll see whether we need to have it.
12 It may be that nothing turns on it at all.
13 Would that be a sensible way to deal with
15 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: We have no objection to
17 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much.
18 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Very well.
19 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, if I might see the
20 document. Your Honours, give me a moment, please.
21 Perhaps it could be shown to my learned
22 friend for the Prosecution and then to Your Honours.
23 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] All right. I
24 don't know what this document concerns. It's in
25 Serbo-Croat, I assume. Perhaps this could be given to
1 the interpreters so that a side translation can be
2 provided, and after that, we will admit it as an
3 exhibit. For the continuation of these proceedings, it
4 might be best first to have the translation of it.
5 My colleague suggests that we put it on the
6 ELMO --
7 MR. GREAVES: I think that that wouldn't be a
8 good idea because it contains the name of the protected
10 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes, there is
11 the name, and the interpreters are also telling me that
12 somebody has to read it out loud. All right.
13 Can the interpreters interpret it or
14 translate it, so long as the name is covered up? All
15 right. Please try to work under those conditions. I
16 think that would be the simplest way of proceeding;
17 that is, we will put it on the ELMO but cover up the
18 witness's name. But let's be sure that the copy is
19 large enough so that the interpreters can work
21 THE INTERPRETER: It should be read out by
22 somebody so that both booths can keep the pace.
23 MR. GREAVES: I was going to ask if the
24 witness could read the details of the pass, excluding
25 his own name.
1 Q. Witness H, can you see the screen properly
2 and are you able to read the pass on that screen? I
3 wonder whether you would be kind enough to go through
4 each line and tell us what it says, please.
5 A. I don't have to read the first line because
6 there is my name there. In the second line, it has the
7 number of my identity card. After that, for a limited
8 movement, for free movement between 6.00 until 21.00 in
9 the combat area in the territory of the municipality of
10 Brcko. The pass is valid only with the identity card,
11 and signed "Serb Public Security Station," a signature,
12 I don't know whose.
13 But I should like to tell you something in
14 relation to this document. I, and probably other
15 detainees; that is, those who had their identity cards
16 or driver's licenses or any kind of a personal
17 document, were taken away, those documents, at Luka. I
18 don't know where they were. So this document, it says
19 that you must also show your identity card to have this
20 pass valid, and yet there have been a number of cases,
21 it also happened to my wife, where they simply tore up
22 this kind of pass. Because there are all sorts of
23 people there, so that I was not allowed to move about
24 either. I'm telling you that I simply did not leave my
25 flat until I was taken away to Batkovici. I never left
1 my flat.
2 Q. Witness H, could I just draw your attention,
3 please, above your name, there are five lines of script
4 at the top of the page. Could you also tell us what
5 those say, please?
6 A. Yes. "Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina,
7 SAO, Sambija, at Majrica, municipality of Brcko," the
8 number of the document, "301/92, Brcko," dated the 27th
9 of May, 1992.
10 Q. Was that document signed in your presence or
11 was it already signed when it was given to you?
12 A. It was given to me personally, to my hands,
13 but I don't know who signed it and I really cannot say
14 who that is. I know where I was issued it, in
15 Mr. Tesic's office, but whose signature this is, I just
16 don't know.
17 Q. Although you didn't have your identity card,
18 did you try and use this pass, and was it, on
19 occasions, accepted as genuine?
20 A. I already mentioned it before, that as of the
21 day when I left Luka on the 27th of May until I was
22 arrested on the 13th of July, I never left my flat. So
23 it wasn't of much use to me. I did not really need
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much, Your
3 Q. Mr. H, can I ask you this: Apart from
4 Dragisa Tesic, who you've described as a police
5 inspector, was there also another police inspector whom
6 you recognised at the camp?
7 A. Yes, Mr. Kavrinovic.
8 Q. Would that be Petar Kavrinovic?
9 A. Petar, yes, Boro's brother.
10 Q. Like Mr. Tesic, had you known him before your
11 detention at Luka?
12 A. Yes. I knew his brother better, but I also
13 knew him because he was also with the police
15 Q. Did you become aware, during your stay at
16 Luka, that he was also interrogating detainees?
17 A. All sorts of rumours spread. Some were taken
18 to Mr. Tesic, some were taken to Kole, the police chief
19 or whatever he was called, of the camp. I don't know
20 what they were called. Some were taken to Sasa's. So
21 there were interrogations also at Mr. Tesic's.
22 Q. Would this be right: that these were the
23 people who were taking decisions as to who should and
24 who should not be issued passes, who should be
25 detained, so on and so forth, who should be
1 transferred; would that be right?
2 A. It is hard to say whether it is right or
3 wrong. I should merely like to mention that -- I
4 already said that Mr. Tesic had promised that nothing
5 would happen to me, that no harm would come to me, and
6 that I would be released after he consulted the
7 gentleman, the above-mentioned Jelisic, and I guess,
8 that's only my opinion, that some decisions must have
9 been made there.
10 Q. Apart from saying that he wanted to speak
11 with Mr. Jelisic about whether or not you should be
12 released, was any further explanation of any kind given
13 as to why he had to do that or why he wanted to do
15 A. No, I don't know if he talked to Mr. Jelisic
16 or not or whether he says that. I really cannot give
17 you any definite answer.
18 Q. Thank you. As far as Mr. Jelisic is
19 concerned, is this correct: that around the 15th or
20 16th of May, you believe that he left the camp?
21 A. Yes. And you know how I know that? That
22 night, according to the chat among the soldiers, among
23 the guards at Luka, they were to go, and as they put
24 it, liberate a locality called Klanac. I believe that
25 Jelisic turned up on the next day -- again I say I'm
1 not sure about the date, whether it was the 15th or
2 16th -- with his hand bandaged. I don't know what
4 Q. And that was the last that you saw of him
5 whilst you were at Luka?
6 A. No. Jelisic was at Luka, but he came to our
7 hangar very seldom because he had already had a man,
8 and I've already mentioned him, Mr. Ozegovic, who did
9 what he was supposed to do, I guess.
10 Q. Is this right: that between the 16th of May
11 and you seeing him or seeing him again at Batkovici,
12 you did not see him between those two dates?
13 A. I can't be quite certain if I saw him on the
14 16th and then not -- and any time between -- before the
15 27th because there were no crimes committed in the
16 hangar, so we did not notice him. And because of that
17 I really cannot tell you if he was there or not.
18 Q. The reason I ask, Mr. H, and I want to just
19 refresh your memory, is that you told the Office of the
20 Prosecutor this: "Around the 15th, 16th of May,
21 Vojkan, Goran, and a few more soldiers said, 'From
22 today on there will be no more killings.'"
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. "I believe it was that night that Goran left
25 the camp. The next time I saw Goran was at Batkovici."
1 Does that refresh your memory?
2 A. I just said that I could not really remember
3 the date. As I said, we did not notice him -- we did
4 not see him enter the hangar between that time we saw
5 him with his hand bandaged and when we left. We did
6 not see him.
7 Q. Mr. H, I want to ask you now very briefly
8 about the three people you talked about earlier on:
9 Novalija, Itric, and the painter.
10 As far as the man Itric is concerned -- I'm
11 sorry. Let me just deal quickly with the man called
12 Novalija. As far as Novalija was concerned, is this
13 right: Whatever his age, he was accused of being
14 involved in being a sniper?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And that that was the cause of the hostility
17 towards him, was that he was suspected of having taken
18 part in that activity?
19 A. These are assumptions.
20 Q. Yes. Whether it's an assumption or not,
21 Mr. H, just answer the question. That was the focus of
22 the hostility towards this man, the accusation that he
23 was a sniper?
24 A. Yes. Yes.
25 Q. As far as the man Itric is concerned, the
1 focus of the hostility towards him was that he was
2 alleged to have raped a young girl; is that right?
3 A. It is.
4 Q. By "young", I mean someone who is aged 7.
5 A. That was said when Itric was brought into the
6 hangar, that the child was 7 years old.
7 Q. Mr. H, can you help me about this: In the
8 country where I come from, people who are alleged to
9 have raped small children are frequently treated with
10 very considerable hostility, whether there's a war
11 going on or not. Is that the case in your country?
12 For example, when people are arrested, they have to be
13 protected from the mob at a police station.
14 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] That is moving
15 outside the examination-in-chief. You're trying to get
16 an opinion here out of the witness. Please move to
17 another question.
18 MR. GREAVES: May I explain, please, Your
19 Honour? If -- and I don't know whether this is the
20 case in France or in Egypt, but it is certainly in
21 England; it's something which does cause hostility. If
22 he was killed because of that reason, it's not a reason
23 that's connected with genocide.
24 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I do not accept
25 the question. The question was asked in the
1 examination-in-chief, and the witness answered that he
2 thought that it was because Itric was allegedly
3 suspected of having raped a young girl. What you can
4 get from the witness now is only opinion and these are
5 basically banal opinions.
6 I think that raping a 7-year-old child, in
7 every country of the world, is considered a very
8 serious crime. It's not the witness saying that to
9 you; it's the Judge. Please move to another question
11 So you can think about that and limit
12 yourself to what was part of the examination-in-chief,
13 we're going to take a break, and I'll ask you to remain
14 in the scope of the count of genocide and the scope of
15 the examination-in-chief. Thank you.
16 We're going to take a 15-minute break.
17 --- Recess taken at 5.02 p.m.
18 --- On resuming at 5.25 p.m.
19 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] The hearing
20 will now resume. Have the accused brought in, please.
21 Please be seated.
22 [The accused entered court]
23 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Greaves.
24 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, yes.
25 Q. Mr. H, I want to ask you now, please, about
1 the man you describe as Alija. Is this right: that,
2 in fact, his full name is Novalija?
3 A. Novalija is his exact name and Smajlovic is
4 his last name.
5 Q. I want to turn now to the account you have
6 given of this man Ohro. Would you accept, please,
7 Mr. H, that today is the first time that you've ever
8 mentioned the existence of this person when dealing
9 with the matters concerning Luka camp?
10 A. No, in view of the fact that in one of my
11 statements I mentioned that man, and I don't know why
12 it was not recorded in my statement.
13 Q. And as far as the incident where you claim to
14 have seen Mr. Jelisic with a TV crew at Batkovici,
15 again, as far as the two statements that you made are
16 concerned, you never mentioned that incident at all.
17 So, again, today is the first time that you've
18 mentioned that matter. Do you accept that?
19 A. I think when I was giving my statement in
20 Tuzla, this was quite some time ago, I don't know who
21 the investigators were, and they were saying that they
22 were not investigating the camp at Batkovici, and that
23 is probably why this statement was not included.
24 Q. I want to turn now, please, to the list of
25 people that you've been through with the court and with
1 the Prosecution. The first person on your list was
2 somebody called Becirevic, otherwise known as Kibe?
3 A. Yes. Yes.
4 Q. The information you have was that he was
5 killed at the barracks sometime around the 11th of May;
6 is that right?
7 A. These are stories, and I cannot give you the
8 exact date when I heard this. At any rate, Kibe was
10 Q. And help me about this, please. Is it within
11 your knowledge that he was involved in politics in
12 Brcko or elsewhere?
13 A. Sakib Becirevic, as far as I know, was not
14 active. Mr. Hodzic was active, or Hadzic.
15 Q. Can we please take them in turn, please, so
16 we keep some order, mister --
17 A. Please go ahead.
18 Q. Was Mr. Becirevic -- did you know if he was a
19 friend of Ibrahim Ramic?
20 A. Butcher. Possibly. I don't know.
21 Q. I'd like now to turn, if I may, please, to
22 the second name that you mentioned, Midhat Bukvic.
23 Your information was that he was killed at Luka. Do
24 you know if he was involved in politics?
25 A. No. Since his brother was a politician, I
1 doubt he was a politician too.
2 Q. Stipo Glavocevic. You heard about his
3 death. Can you tell us from whom you heard about
5 A. From the prisoners in Luka.
6 Q. I think he was Croatian by ethnic background;
7 is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. I think he was a policeman at one stage; is
10 that right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you know if he was involved in politics
13 either before the war or during the war?
14 A. I knew Stipo as a neighbour. We never had
15 any other contact, so I didn't know anything about his
16 political activity.
17 Q. Sadik Jukic, which I think you'll find on the
18 next page, Mr. H, a man in his 60s. You heard
19 something about his death as having taken place in
20 Mujkici; is that right?
21 A. Yes. In his basement.
22 Q. From whom did you hear that?
23 A. From my lady wife. At the time, she was in
24 our house while I was imprisoned.
25 Q. And don't tell us your wife's name or
1 anything, but did she hear it from somebody directly
2 who knew exactly what had happened?
3 A. Yes, since he was not the only one who was
4 killed. A woman was killed by Raymont, and he was
6 Q. Can you put a date on when you think he was
8 A. Well, let me tell you, I left on the 13th of
9 July. I went to Batkovici. Until the 5th of October,
10 I didn't know a thing about my family either, and it
11 was very hard. So I never even asked about this date
12 of disappearance.
13 Q. All right. Do you know if Sadik Jukic was
14 involved in politics before the war?
15 A. That's a man who's illiterate. He's a
16 construction worker. He drove a vehicle with bricks,
17 and concrete, and whatever. He had a family. I doubt
18 he had any time to go into politics.
19 Q. The next man, Mr. H, Jusuf Kapkovic, a man
20 with a large family, disappeared on the 16th of June
21 and has not been seen or heard of since. So apparently
22 nobody can say what happened to him.
23 A. No. No, there is no information about him,
24 and he is listed as being missing, but nobody knows.
25 Q. Again, Mr. H, do you know if he was involved
1 in politics before his disappearance?
2 A. Since he had a large family, and in view of
3 his economic situation, I doubt it. This doesn't have
4 to be correct, but I don't think he was involved.
5 Q. Next, please, two brothers, Katal, Hasim and
6 Rasim, you think they were involved in sports. Would
7 that be football?
8 A. Yes, played in Jadinsvo and in
9 Lokomotiva [phoen], the local club in Brcko.
10 Q. And your information was that they were
11 killed at Luka. From whom did you get that
13 A. From a gentleman I found in Luka who had been
14 beaten up; Mr. Bukvic, that is, and it was probably
15 conveyed to him from someone else.
16 Q. And he told us whilst he was still suffering
17 from the effects of the beating, did he?
18 A. Since Bukvic left Luka on the 14th or 15th, I
19 think, there was time for us to have a chat every now
20 and then.
21 Q. The Katal brothers, were they involved in
22 local politics? We have a description of them being
23 involved as members of the local board.
24 A. As for the political activity of the two of
25 them, that, I don't know. I know they were sportsmen.
1 I often went to Rasim's house. I don't know. As I
2 said, I'm not aware of any political activity of these
3 two men.
4 Q. Then we turn next, please, and I think it's
5 over the page, Mr. H, about halfway down that page, he
6 was obviously an extremely well-known personality.
7 You've described him as a very prominent citizen, and
8 according to his son, he was taken from Janja. Is that
9 a village or an area of Brcko?
10 A. Janja is a very small town near Bijelina,
11 perhaps 11 or 12 kilometres from Bijelina, with a
12 population of about 13.000 now. He was there at the
13 weekend cottage of a colleague of his. His son, who
14 was detained in Batkovici together with us, said that
15 they were taken together, but this man came to
16 Batkovici, and where the other was taken, that, I don't
18 Q. When you describe him as a very prominent
19 citizen, in what field? In what sphere was he
20 prominent? What was the reason for his fame?
21 A. I think he was politically active. I don't
22 know which party he belonged to, but that's why people
23 knew him. I knew him because he was not far away from
25 Q. I think there were three people called
1 Pezerovic. Do you have those at the bottom of page 3,
2 Mr. H?
3 A. Yes. Yes.
4 Q. Are they all related, those three, or are two
5 of them related and one not related?
6 A. The first two, Ibrahim and Sevko, are
7 brothers, and Suljo Pezerovic lived in Mujkici, in
8 Bukovac [phoen]. I don't know whether they're related,
9 but the first two are brothers, Ibrahim and Sevko.
10 Q. And the two brothers, did they live in Brcko
11 or outside Brcko?
12 A. They lived in Brcko, near the railway station
13 and near the Lokomotiva football club stadium.
14 Q. Again, your information is that they
15 disappeared and nothing is known of their fate?
16 A. Yes. Yes.
17 Q. And the same in the case of Suljo, who was
18 known to have been arrested and taken away but has not
19 been seen since?
20 A. They are mentioned in the statement, I
21 think. In relation to this Suljo, he was wounded
22 somewhere. He was brought to Luka in blue pyjamas.
23 You have it there in the statement. After the 15th or
24 16th, I don't know, he was taken away and he's never
25 been seen since.
1 Q. Do you know if any of the Pezerovics were
2 involved in politics?
3 A. Since Ibrahim Pezerovic is a manual labourer,
4 he worked in a factory, and his brother was a railway
5 station worker, he was a cleaner, I doubt that they
6 were active anywhere.
7 Q. Next, Senad Pobric. The only information you
8 have about him is him disappearing in early May.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Again, do you know if he was involved in
12 A. That's a child, a young man, 25 or 26 at the
13 time. He played football. I doubt he was interested
14 in politics, but I don't know for sure. That is my
16 Q. We have a date of birth of 1965, Mr. H, so he
17 would have been in his late 20s in 1992. Would that be
18 the person you know of?
19 A. (redacted)
22 Q. Franjo Vugrindzic [phoen], you list something
23 as having happened to him. What did you hear about
25 A. I just heard that he was taken away. They
1 lived at Maraja, behind the morgue of the hospital. He
2 was taken away and he never returned. I think that his
3 wife is of Serb ethnicity.
4 Q. Thank you, Mr. H. Could we now turn to the
5 second of the two lists, Exhibit 13? I think you'll
6 probably have that in front of you as well. It's just
7 to your right-hand side there.
8 A. We forgot one person on this first page.
9 Kombic, I think. Well, never mind.
10 Q. I'm sorry. On the first page of the -- what
11 was the name you mentioned again? I'm sorry. Kombic.
12 I do apologise. You're entirely right.
13 A. Salik.
14 Q. The information you had about him was a
15 disappearance but nothing further known?
16 A. Well, according to the information that we
17 have or, rather, that I received, he disappeared
18 together with Pobric, and there is another man who's
19 not on the list. That was this new part of Brcko,
20 Lozijono [phoen], whatever it was called. All of it is
21 the same neighbourhood.
22 Q. The second list, Mr. H. Ahmet Hodzic, better
23 known as Papa --
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. -- you were aware of him having been killed,
1 but didn't know how. Would the description of him
2 that's given here in English, "president of the local
3 executive in Kolobara," would that be correct?
4 A. I know that he was president of the local
5 commune of Kolobara, but I don't know whether he was
6 president of the local executive board as well.
7 Q. Yes. And a member of the SDA?
8 A. As I said, I do not know. I know that he was
9 president of this local organisation, whatever it was
10 called. I don't know whether he was a member.
11 Possibly so.
12 Q. Then the gentleman from whom you bought some
13 land, Mr. Kaknjo, the same, he was someone who had made
14 significant contributions to the SDA?
15 A. According to the information that I have, I
16 think he was politically active.
17 Q. And the description that we've got of him
18 here, "important member of the board of the Islamic
19 community," would that accord with your information
20 about him?
21 A. The Islamic community is not a political
22 organisation. The Islamic community is an organisation
23 which deals exclusively with Muslim affairs. It is not
24 politically active.
25 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Answer to the
1 Judges, Witness H. You're answering the Judges. Thank
3 Please proceed. Can we speed things up a
4 little bit? Because I think you've gone longer than
5 you said you would, but I would like you to finish
6 under proper conditions.
7 MR. GREAVES: I am drawing to a close, as
8 Your Honour will understand as we go through this.
9 Q. Mr. H, as far as the next name is concerned,
10 Dr. Edhemovic, a very prominent man in the town; you
11 would accept that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. It describes him here as having no formal
14 position in the SDA but an important associate of the
15 party because of his influence in the town. Would that
16 be a fair comment about him?
17 A. Anything is possible.
18 Q. Vasif Sulejmanovic, a gentleman who owned the
19 television station in Brcko. You've described him as
20 wearing a white arm band. Do you know what the
21 significance of a white arm band was?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Next, the name of Zelenjakovic. You were
24 aware of three brothers by that name; is that right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And were they involved in politics?
2 A. I'm not aware of that.
3 Q. Next, the name of Kevric, which I think
4 you'll find on the final page at number 33. Again,
5 known as a prominent citizen in Brcko?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you believe that he and the next man named
8 on the list were killed at the same time and the same
10 A. According to the persons from Srpska Varos,
11 from that area, they were killed that night. I don't
12 know. I know he worked at the railway station. I
13 don't know his name.
14 Q. As far as Mr. Muminovic is concerned, were
15 you aware that his sons were involved in SDA politics
16 and were members of the party?
17 A. (redacted)
20 Q. Finally, Osman Vatic, who you believe had
21 given money to the SDA. Was he also an SDA member of
23 A. I never said that I believed he gave money.
24 As we came into Luka, Mr. Jelisic said that he gave
25 money. You do not have a statement of mine saying that
1 I believed that he gave money, and I cannot say whether
2 he was a member or not. He was a respectable citizen.
3 Possibly he belonged to a political party too.
4 Q. I stand corrected about the information.
5 Finally, Mr. H, I just want to go back
6 briefly to the camp and ask you something I omitted to
7 ask you earlier. Were you aware of someone working at
8 the camp called Kole?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Is this right: He was in command of the
11 police unit at Luka throughout your time there?
12 A. During those 15 days, and that is how long I
13 stayed there, he was.
14 MR. GREAVES: Thank you.
15 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 Mr. Tochilovsky, do you have any additional
18 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: I do not have any
19 additional questions.
20 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Judge Riad?
21 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Thank you,
22 Mr. President.
23 JUDGE RIAD: Good afternoon, Mr. H. We have
24 to call you Witness H. Excuse me.
25 Perhaps you can clarify just two points for
1 me. I noticed first, and this is just a minor
2 question, that when you mentioned that some people were
3 killed or disappeared, you used several different
4 descriptions. For some people, you would say that
5 there is no trace of them; and for other people, you
6 would say that they are no longer among the living; and
7 for some people, you would say that they had been
8 killed. I noticed some losses in what you said. Other
9 people, you said, yes, they were killed, one was killed
10 in front of his house; another was, I think, killed in
11 the same hangar as you. This was very clear. But
12 others, one of them, you said, "I heard that he was
13 killed." That was also clear.
14 But when you said that they were not among
15 the living, what does this mean? How do you know?
16 Does that mean that they disappeared and nobody knows
17 where they are or that it has been proved that they are
18 killed? Perhaps you can just clarify this, if you
19 can. I can give you the names even.
20 A. No, I don't need names really. (redacted)
22 (redacted). On the basis of information, I
23 believe that the names I mentioned when I said that all
24 trace is lost, I mean I think I'm right. However,
25 "killed," "missing," I think to our minds, it is the
1 same. They are not among the living. They are no
2 longer alive.
3 JUDGE RIAD: So this is now the general idea,
4 that those who are missing, as you said, are not among
5 the living.
6 A. These are assumptions only, but I have never
7 called, and the war ended in 1995, you know.
8 JUDGE RIAD: And they are legally treated as
9 not living any more? Legally, do you know that? Their
10 wives can get married and that sort of thing?
11 A. Well, they are getting married, so this is
12 not a problem.
13 JUDGE RIAD: Another more disturbing
14 question: You mentioned that some people were being
15 considered as snipers. Mr. Novalija Smajlovic, 70
16 years old, I think, or more, was called a sniper and
17 was beaten to death. I think Mr. Muminovic was
18 considered that he was financing the SDA and then
19 treated accordingly. Mr. Stjepan Itric was accused of
20 raping a 7-year-old girl and then beaten to death also,
21 or at least what you said: is not any more among the
23 Were these accusations just distributed on
24 the people, each one being called something, as if when
25 you call somebody Mr. John or Mr. Robert, or there was
1 a legal inquiry and some kind of legal sentence,
2 putting them to prison, sending them to prison, or even
3 the death sentence? Was this some kind of legal
4 process or just, at random, calling everybody whatever
5 you like and then treating them accordingly? In your
6 view, what was happening exactly?
7 A. Let me tell you, there were no laws. People
8 who were killed or who were brought in were
9 interrogated very seldom. I already mentioned about
10 Itric, that that same day, he was brought in and
12 I should like to mention something. You
13 mentioned Mr. Muminovic, that he financed or that I
14 said something to that effect. I did not quite get the
15 question. Could you repeat it, please?
16 JUDGE RIAD: I heard that Muminovic was
17 accused of giving money to the SDA.
18 A. I did not say that.
19 JUDGE RIAD: It was just an example, anyhow.
20 Someone was giving money and was being punished for
21 that. So these punishments were not based on any legal
23 A. No. No.
24 JUDGE RIAD: What were they based on?
25 A. It is really hard to say. I can say that I
1 was brought from a hospital bed, with eight other
2 patients from that same hospital, and they did not call
3 any names; they simply said, "If you're a Bosniak, you
4 are taken in."
5 So that was the procedure, but it had nothing
6 to do with law. It was not a lawful procedure; it was
7 a physical procedure.
8 JUDGE RIAD: Some were, as you mentioned,
9 spared; and some were, as you said, did not survive.
10 Was there some kind of selection, selecting somebody
11 and then letting someone else get away?
12 A. Anything is possible. They also had some
13 connections or maybe some friends, and they survived,
14 and I'm probably one of those.
15 JUDGE RIAD: I'm happy you are one of those.
16 Thank you.
17 JUDGE JORDA: [No interpretation]
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Thank you, Mr. President.
19 Witness H, good afternoon. I also have a few
20 questions to ask.
21 When we speak about Mr. Itric, I think that
22 you left your house on the 4th of May, 1992. Is that
24 A. Yes.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: And Mr. Itric, do you know
1 when it was that he left his house?
2 A. I believe it was on the 13th of May.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Therefore, you left your
4 house before he did because you had to go to the
6 A. Yes.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Before leaving your house
8 to go to the hospital, (redacted)
9 (redacted), in the community in your village, were
10 there any accusations brought against Mr. Itric,
11 accusations of his having raped a young girl?
12 A. No. He was a very quiet man. I did say in a
13 statement that we never even saw him with a female,
14 with a woman.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Is it possible that that
16 could happen after you left the hospital and his
17 arrest, when he was taken to the Luka camp?
18 A. I doubt it really.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Then when at the Luka camp
20 you heard that accusation, were there other neighbours
21 of Mr. Itric there, there at the Luka camp?
22 Excuse me. In the Luka camp, were there
23 other individuals besides yourself who knew Mr. Itric?
24 A. Yes. There was his next-door neighbour,
25 Suljo Hasimbasic. There was his father brought, I
1 don't know on what date. I believe on the 18th is when
2 he was exchanged.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: When faced with this
4 accusation, how did the people who knew Mr. Itric
6 A. At that time, when he was brought in,
7 Hasimbasic and his father were not there, because he
8 had gone out to buy cigarettes for his father. So they
9 couldn't react.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: And you, how did you
12 A. We were not allowed even to look. We all had
13 to keep our heads down and look at the floor. There
14 was -- no reaction would be called for, because I could
15 have been also beaten or killed for reacting.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: But within yourself, do you
17 think that the accusation was valid or not valid?
18 A. Because I know the man, as I already
19 explained, I think it is false.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: And the other accusation
21 that you spoke about when you spoke about an old man
22 who was 82 years old and who was accused of having been
23 a sniper, was he in physical condition in order to go
25 A. No.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: That is, was he in good
3 A. He was a man who seemed to be in a very bad
4 shape, and he also wore glasses. I do not think his
5 sight was even all that good. Therefore, I doubt it.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Therefore, there were many
7 accusations against several people.
8 A. Yes.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: There is something else I
10 would like to know. You recognised, on the two lists,
11 at least 20 people, not counting the people whose name
12 appears on both. Is there something in common among
13 all of these people? Could one find any kind of common
14 denominator for all those people?
15 A. They're all people from different parts of
16 the town. I doubt, or, rather, I should say that they
17 have nothing in common.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: I don't want to lead my
19 questions. You recognised at least 20 people. Among
20 the 20 people whom you recognised on both lists, did
21 any of them have a common characteristic to all of
23 A. I don't think so.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Could you construct any
25 kind of sentence saying all of those people were
1 something? Let me go further than that. Of what
2 ethnic group were these people?
3 A. They were all Bosniaks.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: And what was their
6 A. Muslims. Excuse me, except for Stipo
7 Glavocevic and Itric.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Yes. We know that they
9 were Croats. You spoke about people who were arrested
10 and then released on the same day. Do you remember
11 that as those people who were arrested and released the
12 same day?
13 A. Yes. Yes, I do.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Who were they? Were they
15 Muslims or were they members of another religion?
16 A. I know only Zoran, who came from a mixed
17 marriage. The priest, the orthodox priest in Brcko,
18 came and took him away the same day. All the rest were
19 Muslim or Bosniaks.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: You spoke about the subject
21 of your interrogation when you answered Mr. Greaves's
22 questions. You mentioned a whole series of people
23 about whom he wanted information. As regards those
24 people you spoke about during your interrogations, were
25 they also Muslims or were they not?
1 A. Those who interrogated or --
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: The people who conducted
3 the interrogation asked you information about certain
4 people. You mentioned some of them in your answer to
5 Mr. Greaves's questions. Who were those people who
6 wanted to find out information?
7 A. They were mostly interested in people who
8 were Bosniaks.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Another question. As
10 regards the discussion around 11th -- or 13th of May,
11 when you gave your answer to Mr. Greaves, you spoke
12 about statements that were given to the Bosnian
13 authorities, I believe. What type of authorities were
14 they? Were they administrative, or military, or
15 judicial authorities? What type of authorities?
16 A. In my first statement, it was given to
17 administrative authorities; that is, a wartime
18 journalist, Suad Alagic, I believe his name was, was
19 the one who took my first statement.
20 My second statement I gave to the
21 investigators, and I believe it was in 1994, 1995. I
22 can't remember.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: When you showed us your
24 laissez passer, there were also authorities who issued
25 it. Who were those authorities?
1 A. I already said it. I was issued that pass in
2 the office in which Mr. Korenovic and Mr. Tesic
3 worked. Who signed that pass, I don't know, but
4 they -- those were the authorities.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: But mention was made of the
6 authorities. In the upper left-hand corner, you saw
7 there were five lines. Which authorities were
8 mentioned there? Were these also Bosnian authorities?
9 A. No. Those were Serb authorities or, as far
10 as I could read it out, it was the Serb public security
11 station in the Serb Autonomous Province of Semberija.
12 So those were the Serb authorities.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: But they were Bosnian
15 A. Yes.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Something else with which
17 I'll conclude. In your summary, you mention Kolar;
18 that is, someone who went by the name of Kolar. When
19 you answered Mr. Greaves about Mr. Kolar, were Kole and
20 Kolar the same people or are they different people?
21 A. Kolar, his surname is Smajlovic. We called
22 him Kolar because he had a horse and a cart, and that
23 is how he earned his livelihood, and Mr. Kole is a
24 Serb, and they are not related in any way.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: So these are two different
1 people. I thought that I -- that this was the first
2 time today that you spoke about Kole, because
3 Mr. Greaves mentioned the fact that you had never
4 referred, in your previous statements, to him, that
5 this was the first time that you mentioned Kole. Is
6 that correct, "Yes" or "No"?
7 A. Well, it was not in the statement, so I
8 suppose I could not -- I could not have not mentioned
9 him, because I knew Kole personally. I also knew his
10 mother. Because of that --
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Excuse me, Witness H, for
12 interrupting you. Mr. Greaves, you want to say
14 MR. GREAVES: It was concerning the man Ohro,
15 not Kole, that I suggested that he'd not mentioned him
16 before, a man called Ohro, not Kole.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Thank you, in any case, but
18 I go back to my question.
19 Why is it only today that you spoke for the
20 first time about that person?
21 A. I just said so now. Invariably, in my
22 statements, I spoke about Mr. Kole, because Mr. Kole
23 was some kind of a police chief down there in Luka. I
24 don't know how many people there were with regard to
25 the police administration. I don't know what the
1 reason was why he was not included in the record. That
2 I don't know. Whether it was that unimportant or not,
3 I don't know.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Really my last question
5 now. When you signed your statements to the Bosnian
6 authorities, did those people give you the statements
7 so you could read them and ask you whether you agreed
8 before you signed, or how did things occur?
9 A. I think it was the day after the day I was
10 released from Batkovici. As I say, this statement was
11 taken by a journalist and nothing was given to us to
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Thank you, Witness H.
14 Thank you very much.
15 Thank you, Mr. President. Excuse me for
16 having taken so much time.
17 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Given the very
18 complete nature of your nature, I can spare the witness
19 my own questions because they were already answered.
20 I will take advantage of this time -- I'll
21 give you the floor, Mr. Tochilovsky.
22 I would like the registrar to tell us whether
23 there are any problems with the exhibits.
24 THE REGISTRAR: The statements of Witness H
25 are reference numbered 28, 28A for the French version
1 and 28B for the B/C/S version. And the laissez passer,
2 which was presented, will have the number D7, and this
3 is a confidential exhibit.
4 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Let me turn to
5 my colleagues and ask whether we can accept as an
6 exhibit the statements made before the Tuzla
7 authorities so that the Judges try to see if there is
8 an overarching consistency in them.
9 Mr. Tochilovsky?
10 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: First of all, if the
11 statement given to Bosnian authorities is accepted as
12 an exhibit, we would like a statement given to the
13 Office of the Prosecutor also to be admitted into
14 evidence as an exhibit, but I would like --
15 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Greaves?
16 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, I've been very
17 careful to put it to him in two ways: one to refresh
18 his memory; and, two, alternatively to ask him not an
19 inconsistency, but why he hadn't mentioned something
20 before. That is not an exercise which requires Your
21 Honour to see the statement, in my submission.
22 The first point is simply to clarify with the
23 witness whether he has perhaps mistaken the dates, and
24 the second matter is perfectly simple. It's accepted
25 he didn't say it and he's not -- he's given an
1 explanation as to why he didn't mention it. So it
2 doesn't require Your Honour to have the two statements
3 to make any comparison.
4 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] The Judges
5 maintain their decision because the coherence of
6 various statements is really brought into question
7 rather seriously, and you -- you have less pointed at
8 these differences in the case of this witness, but the
9 Judges also believe that there may be contradictions
10 between the statements, and it is quite legitimate to
11 ask them and the Judges, who will have to decide at
12 some point about them.
13 Yes, Mr. Tochilovsky, you have the floor.
14 You have something to raise?
15 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: Just one issue. The
16 Defence mentioned to the witness, and then reiterated
17 again, that the witness never mentioned the name "Ohro"
18 in his previous statements, and I believe if this is
19 the Defence position, it's not correct, because on
20 page 7 of the statement given to the Office of the
21 Prosecutor, there is a paragraph on Ohro where the
22 witness says: "A detainee by the name 'Ohro' beat the
23 detainees at Luka." It is on page 7 in the English
24 translation. I believe it is also in French and in
25 Bosnian. Thank you.
1 JUDGE JORDA: [No interpretation]
2 MR. GREAVES: I accept that's what it says.
3 Of course, he's given rather more information than
4 simply that bland statement.
5 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Very well.
6 Thank you. Before we adjourn for the day, I should
7 like to ask the Prosecution for these lists.
8 Were these lists established on the basis of
9 all the testimonies, and thus you drew up these lists
10 and tried to finalise them? Could you please explain
11 how you did them? What was the procedure? I'm really
12 sorry. Mr. Nice, it is you.
13 MR. NICE: The two lists are different lists
14 entirely. One came from Bosnian authorities and is a
15 document that a witness coming next week, the Chief of
16 Prosecution, John Ralston, will deal with, and that
17 purported to be a list dealing with bodies in mass
18 graves, and giving an account --
19 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Which one?
20 MR. NICE: The other list, list 39, is a list
21 produced by a witness, whom I shan't name at the
22 moment, but is simply a list of prominent Muslims.
23 So one is more directly identified as a list
24 of those said to be dead, although the people saying
25 they're dead are the Serbian authorities,
1 contemporaneously giving an account of their death and
2 some kind of explanation for their death, but
3 nevertheless, giving an account of the bodies in the
4 grave. The other is a list of prominent Muslims.
5 They're different lists, but certainly we'll
6 have the best available evidence of those lists, and
7 each of them, from witnesses within the next week. I
8 hope that helps.
9 The Tribunal will remember that, of course,
10 it was the Defence who indicated that they were going
11 to ask questions --
12 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you.
13 MR. NICE: -- about these lists that led to
14 my attempting to save time by asking them about the
15 questions first.
16 While I'm on my feet, and I know it's late,
17 but may I simply mention, because it will help, two
18 short administrative matters? Would that be possible?
19 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Not yet, but I
20 should like to go into private session, if possible,
21 before we proceed.
22 [Private session]
13 pages 990-1002 redacted – private session
23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
24 6.42 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,
25 the 7th day of September, 1999, at
1 10.00 a.m.