1 Tuesday, 7th September, 1999
2 [Open session]
3 [The witness entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 10.06 a.m.
5 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Please be
6 seated. Mr. Usher, please have the accused brought
8 [The accused entered court]
9 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Do the
10 interpreters hear me?
11 Good morning to Prosecution and to Defence
12 counsel, to the accused, of course, and good morning to
13 the witness who has just come in. We're going to call
14 him Witness I.
15 I ask you to remain standing for as long as
16 it takes you to take an oath according to the formula
17 which is being given to you by the usher. Please
19 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
20 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
22 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] You may now be
23 seated. You have come to The Hague -- we're going to
24 call you Witness I because you are being covered by
25 protective measures that you requested, and this
1 explains why you are being positioned the way you are.
2 First of all, you're going to hear the
3 questions asked by the Prosecutor because you are a
4 Prosecution witness. Then Defence counsel will ask you
5 questions; he's on your left. Mr. Goran Jelisic is the
6 accused. Then if the Judges wish to, they will ask you
7 the questions they consider appropriate.
8 Let me remind you that when you answer, turn
9 to the Judges. The questions are asked from one side
10 or the other, but when you give your answer, turn and
11 face the Judges when you speak.
12 The Prosecution has the floor.
13 Mr. Tochilovsky?
14 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: May I have, usher,
15 assistance in placing the summary of the witness
16 statements in front of the him?
17 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] The
18 witness must identify his name without pronouncing it,
19 to look at the piece of paper given to him.
20 Look at the piece of paper and check to see
21 that this is your name. If it is, please nod but do
22 not say your name.
23 THE WITNESS: [Indicating]
24 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you. Now
25 please answer the Prosecutor's questions.
1 WITNESS: WITNESS I
2 Examined by Mr. Tochilovsky:
3 Q. Witness I, is the summary before you the
4 document which you had the opportunity to read and
5 recognise as a correct summary of your statements?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Witness I, I would like to ask you first some
8 questions on events before you were taken to Luka. (redacted)
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Were you present when the former mayor of
13 Brcko, Mustafa Ramic, made an address to the citizens
14 of Brcko?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you remember the date when the address was
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What was that address about?
20 A. Should I tell you?
21 Q. Just in general, very shortly, what was that
23 A. Mayor Ramic addressed the citizens of Brcko
24 through the local TV station (redacted). He asked
25 them to have tensions eased and to find, through
1 peaceful democratic means, the best solution for the
2 further coexistence of the citizens of Brcko.
3 Q. Witness I, were you detained on May 4, 1992?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Who detained you?
6 A. I was detained by paramilitary formations or,
7 rather, the Serb forces that had occupied our town in
8 those days.
9 Q. Were there any other people who were detained
10 with you that day?
11 A. Yes. Yes.
12 Q. What was their ethnicity?
13 A. Most of them were Bosniaks, Muslims, and
14 there were a few Croats as well. Also, there were
15 people coming from mixed marriages.
16 Q. Were you then and other people from your
17 neighbourhood moved to the medical centre?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Were you then subsequently taken to the
21 A. Yes. Yes.
22 Q. How many people were taken with you to the
24 A. In half of the mosque there were between 80
25 and 90 of us.
1 Q. What ethnicity were those detainees?
2 A. Well, I said that most were Muslims,
3 Bosniaks. There were a few Croats and there were
4 people coming from mixed marriages, for example, where
5 the mother was a Serb and the father a Croat, or, for
6 example, there was a man who was also named Goran who
7 was with us in the mosque. I don't know what his
8 ethnicity was.
9 Q. Were you interrogated in the mosque?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. How were you treated during those
13 A. They were angry with us. Some would get
14 beaten up. They insulted us. They said that we should
15 all be shot dead, that only five per cent of us should
16 be allowed to live. Then somebody else would walk in
17 and say that we should not worry at all, that they were
18 only interested in the Green Berets, members of the
19 SDA, those who had weapons.
20 Q. Did you provide the interrogators with any
22 A. I don't know what you mean.
23 Q. Did you give the interrogators names of any
24 people you knew?
25 A. Yes. Yes. Yes, I did. I was forced to do
2 Q. So you provided the interrogators with those
3 names on which basis? What were the allegations about
4 those people?
5 A. Well, they told me or, rather, they first
6 gave me a piece of paper and a pencil. When they were
7 interrogating me, they asked me to write down the names
8 of those people in Brcko whom I knew to have weapons.
9 Q. And you gave the names of people who were in
10 possession of weapons or hunting weapons? What kind of
12 A. At that moment, since I was threatened to be
13 killed if I did not write down some names, I thought of
14 writing down the names of those people for whom I was
15 100 per cent sure that they had weapons.
16 Q. Do you know what happened to those people
18 A. Unfortunately -- I don't know it was because
19 I wrote down their names -- out of the four men whose
20 names I wrote down, two were killed.
21 Q. What were the names of those two?
22 A. (redacted). His
23 name was Ahmed Fatic. The other one was called Hazim
25 Q. How old were those people?
1 A. Ahmed Fatic, (redacted)
2 (redacted), was about 71 or 72. Perhaps he was even
3 older than that.
4 The other one, Hazim Vilic, was a bit younger
5 than him. He was about 55 perhaps.
6 Q. When were you transferred to Luka camp?
7 A. I was transferred to the Luka camp from the
8 barracks, where I was together with the others. We
9 came from all local communes in the town, all of us who
10 were in the barracks, and we were brought in on the 8th
11 of May, 1992.
12 Q. Did you see a man by the name of Goran
13 Jelisic when you arrived to the camp?
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 Q. Can you describe the man? What did he look
17 A. He was thin, taller than myself. He wore a
18 police uniform, a summer police uniform of the former
19 police. On one hand he had a bandage; I don't know if
20 it was his right hand or left hand. When I first saw
21 him, he brought in a plastic box and asked us to leave
22 our personal belongings.
23 Q. Did he introduce himself?
24 A. When he entered the second time, of course,
25 after having taken away this box with our personal
1 belongings, and when he entered the second time, he
2 walked in with a baton. It was a black rubber baton,
3 perhaps one metre long. He hit it on the ground in
4 order to call us to attention, and when we all looked
5 in the direction where he stood, he said, "I'm the Serb
6 Adolf," and he said his name.
7 Q. Was there any objection from any guard who
8 was present there to what Goran requested of you?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What happened? What kind of objections? Who
11 did it?
12 A. While Goran was asking us to put our personal
13 belongings into this box, in the hangar, there was a
14 man --
15 Q. I'm sorry. The translation doesn't follow.
16 Maybe you can speak a bit slower.
17 THE INTERPRETER: No, the witness is speaking
18 slowly enough.
19 A. There was a policeman there who stood in a
20 camouflage uniform with a white belt, and at one point
21 in time, he addressed Goran. He said, "Why were you
22 taking their personal belongings?" He said this
23 belonged to us and that it belonged to us.
24 MR. TOCHILOVSKY:
25 Q. What was Goran's reaction to that?
1 A. He said, "Have you handed them over to me?"
2 That policeman said that he was responsible for our
3 fate. Goran angrily left the hangar and went towards
4 the administrative building. He came back and said to
5 this policeman that there was a telephone call for
6 him. This policeman never returned to guard us. They
7 brought another soldier in an olive-grey uniform, and
8 he put a machine gun in front of us. He had long hair;
9 he was thin.
10 Q. Witness I, can you tell the Court what you
11 know about the two brothers from Zvornik? What
12 happened to them, very shortly?
13 A. Among the personal belongings that we handed
14 over to Goran Jelisic, there were our personal IDs as
15 well; that is to say, our IDs, our driver's licenses,
16 our passports, our money, and other valuables.
17 When Goran came back afterwards, he was
18 carrying something, I don't know if it was IDs, but at
19 any rate, he had some documents. Then he said to us,
20 "Now you are going to see how proven Green Berets are
21 going to be treated." They came from Zvornik to fight
22 at the Brcko front. He called out their names, he
23 called out their names and surnames and said, "Get out,
24 you Green Berets." They were twin brothers and they
25 looked alike. They even wore the same clothes and
1 footwear. Goran handed over one of them to Sok, Enver
2 Sok, and Enver took one of the brothers into the
3 premises of the administrative building.
4 As for the other brother, Goran started
5 beating him at the entrance to the hangar. The hangar
6 door was ajar, and I was close to that door. One could
7 see Goran beating one of the brothers with the baton.
8 He was shouting at him, cursing him. The man was
9 begging him, saying that he was not guilty of anything
10 and that he should not beat him for nothing. All who
11 were present in the hangar could hear that. The blows
12 were strong and they resounded. There was silence.
13 One could only hear Goran and the man whom he was
14 beating up. That went on for about 10 or 15 minutes.
15 After that, two shots rang out.
16 Q. Witness I, do you remember whether Sok asked
17 Jelisic what to do with the other brother?
18 A. Yes. Yes, I do remember. As Goran was
19 coming back from the place from which he had picked up
20 one of the brothers, he had in his hands a pistol, a
21 Scorpio with a silencer, black. At that moment, Enver
22 came out of the office and had with him the other
23 brother, and he said to Goran, "And what am I to do
24 with him?" Goran laughed and said, "Take him to the
25 other one. They now need yet another one to play
2 Q. What happened to that other brother?
3 A. Enver took him in the direction of the place
4 where his brother was lying down. They went, Enver on
5 his left-hand side and the other brother on his
6 right-hand side, and they were walking towards each
8 As they arrived two or three metres or so
9 from the body of his brother, from where the body of
10 his brother was lying, Sok stopped for a while and this
11 brother went on. With his right hand, he lifted the
12 pistol with the silencer and fired, and I don't know
13 exactly where it was first, in the stomach and then at
14 the back of his head or the other way around.
15 Q. Witness I, do you remember a man by the name
16 of Jasce in Luka?
17 A. Yes, I remember.
18 Q. Can you tell the Court shortly what you know
19 about his fate? What happened to him in the camp?
20 A. I knew Jasce even before he was brought to
21 Luka. However, in Luka, as I cued for the pass with
22 the rest of the group of 30 or so of my townsmen, I saw
23 them taking out Jasce. They took him out and led him
24 into the administrative building. They tortured him
25 there, ill-treated him, abused him verbally. Of
1 course, I could hear it all because the doors of these
2 offices were open, and they kept him there for some
4 After that, when they took him out through
5 the door, that is, in front of the door, one could see
6 marks of harassment, that is, torture on him. His face
7 was bloody, his hair was dishevelled, and he looked
9 Q. Witness I, when you refer to "them", "they"
10 took him to the office building, who took him to the
11 office building from the hangar?
12 A. I mean Ranko Cesic.
13 Q. Before Jasce was taken from the office
14 building in that condition as you described, did Ranko
15 Cesic ask anything of Goran Jelisic?
16 A. Yes. He asked Goran and Enver, "Which one of
17 you will take him over?"
18 Q. What was the response? Who responded to him
19 and what?
20 A. Goran said, "Give him to me," and, "He needs
21 to load his gun again anyway."
22 Q. What happened then to Jasce?
23 A. They took him away also in the direction of
24 those two executed brothers, and there with two shots
25 at the back of his head and stomach. They also
1 executed Jasce.
2 Q. Was there a man by the name of Danijel in the
4 A. Yes, he was, but only for a short period of
5 time. Danijel was brought -- I can't remember exactly
6 who it was that brought him, but they took him in the
7 direction leading from the main gate to the place where
8 those three had been executed.
9 Around me were people who had also been
10 issued passes. We were standing in a very compact
11 group so that it was more difficult for me to see what
12 was going on. I need to point out that very near me,
13 in my immediate vicinity, my brother, my elder brother,
14 was also standing, and he kept saying to me all the
15 time, "Don't look in that direction," and very angrily
16 too. With his body he shielded me. He screened me
17 from anything that I could see. I need to point out
18 that. Otherwise, I and all the rest of us could not
19 look directly but, rather, we had been ordered to keep
20 our heads down. However, on the sly, as much as we
21 could, we looked and we tried to see that.
22 Q. So when you mentioned that Danijel was taken
23 and they took him to the place of execution, who took
24 him to that place?
25 A. Who took him? Goran and Enver Sok took him
2 Q. Then what happened to this man when they
3 approached the place of execution?
4 A. You mean Danijel. We heard two shots, and he
5 stayed lying down at the place where the others had
6 also been killed.
7 I only need to say one thing. After they
8 would kill somebody, they would, every time, ask for
9 volunteers to take away the body. Some who volunteered
10 to take them away were not afraid and they
11 volunteered. Some were designated by Goran himself.
12 He would merely point with his hand, "You and you, take
13 this one away."
14 So when Jasce was executed, Goran indicated
15 with his hand a man who was standing near the car. He
16 was a Bosniak, a Muslim, and he was standing right next
17 to the car. Goran called him out personally to take
18 the body away. (redacted).
19 Incidentally, he is an invalid. He has trouble with
20 one leg. So he asked Goran, because he was an invalid
21 and because he dare not look at that man, to pick out
22 somebody else.
23 However, two men volunteered and (redacted)
24 (redacted). They picked up the
25 body, Jasce's body, and took it behind the hangar down
1 the street, and they left it there, I believe, on the
2 right-hand side.
3 I heard later that there was a heap there, a
4 heap of dead bodies.
5 Q. Thank you, Witness I. Were you rearrested
6 after you were released from Luka camp?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Where were you detained after you were
10 A. When I was issued a pass from Luka, my
11 brother and I thought that it would be dangerous to go
12 back to our neighbourhood community, and so we went to
13 our friends (redacted), and we stayed at our
14 friends' until the 14th of July.
15 Then at 2.00 in the morning, I and other
16 people from surrounding buildings were loaded onto the
17 buses of the town transport and deported to the camp at
19 Q. Did you see Goran Jelisic when you were in
21 A. Yes, but not when we arrived right away.
22 There were some other people there. Goran was at Luka
23 still, presumably. However, after perhaps a month or
24 two, one day in the afternoon hours, Goran arrived at
25 the camp at Batkovic. He was wearing a civilian
1 uniform, nicely dressed. Outside the camp, that is,
2 beyond the wire, there was a girl, a young woman,
3 waiting for him.
4 Around him -- about ten inmates gathered
5 around him, and he talked to them. He was even
6 inquiring if that dark one they used to call Ohro was
7 there. Goran had come, planning to take two from the
8 Batkovic camp, two inmates, I mean, to take them with
9 him, two inmates who had also been at Luka. I think
10 that the name of one was Muta, rather, the nickname of
11 one was Muta. I, at that moment, was about a metre and
12 half or two away from him. He also made some jokes on
13 that occasion, naturally, as he knew some that he used
14 to see at Luka before.
15 So he waited for the two that he had come for
16 to take some of their personal effects, and he took
17 them away in all likelihood.
18 Afterwards, after I left the camp, I heard
19 that he needed then somebody who had been to the Luka
20 camp to deny the news in the media about how Luka was a
21 camp and that Goran was involved in executions.
22 I also heard later that those men were
23 forced, were coerced into making such statements to
24 media, as were asked from them by Goran.
25 Q. So you just mentioned the name Ohro. Goran
1 was looking for Ohro to take him with Goran for that
3 A. I only need to say that he did not ask to
4 take Ohro with him. He asked for the other two. But
5 he asked about Ohro, by the way, because he used to be
6 his assistant there.
7 Q. Thank you, Witness I. Now I have some
8 questions on the lists.
9 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: May I have the assistance
10 of the usher?
11 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] First of all,
12 Mr. Tochilovsky, I'd like to have you state clearly
13 what murders were acknowledged by the accused to which
14 he pleaded guilty, that is, Count 14 and 15, I
15 believe. Perhaps 16 and 17 as well. Are there any
16 others in the indictment?
17 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: Your Honour, the witness,
18 as well as other witnesses, they are asked about those
19 killings to which Goran Jelisic pleaded guilty to, but
20 the main purpose of these questions we ask, and this
21 witness was asked to explain that very shortly, because
22 we are interested not whether the facts took place
23 because Goran Jelisic pleaded guilty to that, but we're
24 interested in how the killings were committed, what
25 Goran Jelisic's behaviour was, what did he say, because
1 all these facts are relevant to Count 1.
2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 That's what I wanted you to clarify. The Judges, as
4 you know, want these proceedings to be very
5 circumscribed to genocide.
6 All right. Mr. Tochilovsky, you may
8 MR. TOCHILOVSKY:
9 Q. First, Exhibit number 12. You were shown
10 this list before, and can you tell us what you know,
11 very shortly, whether you know what happened to the
12 person or not, and if you know, whether you saw an
13 incident or not?
14 Sakib Becirevic, on page 1. Do you know his
16 A. His fate?
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. I heard about it after I left the Batkovic
19 camp. I heard it from people who were detained in the
20 gymnasium partizan at the time when Sakib was
22 Q. On the second page, there is the name Ahmed
23 Hodzic, on page 2.
24 A. I need to correct you. It is Ahmet Hodzic.
25 (redacted). Otherwise, they used to
1 call him Papa. He, together with my family, were hid
2 in the same cellar.
3 We came out together. We were together in
4 the Wooden Mosque at Kolobara. There they singled him
5 out and took him to the health centre. At the health
6 centre he was tortured and there they interrogated him.
7 Q. That's what you heard from others; is that
9 A. Yes. Yes.
10 Q. On page 3 there is the name Fadil Mujic.
11 Very shortly, do you know what happened to this person,
12 Fadil Mujic?
13 A. (redacted)
14 (redacted). He was also at the mosque
15 with me and was subsequently transferred to the
16 barracks with me, and from the barracks to Luka. He
17 stayed behind after I left Luka, and from people who
18 were with him, I heard that one evening Fadil was
19 called out and taken away and never been brought back.
20 Q. The next name is Galib Muranjkovic. Do you
21 know what happened to this person?
22 A. (redacted).
23 He thought that he would be saved if he went from Brcko
24 to Janja. However, I also heard that he was killed
1 Q. The next name is Mirsad Pasalic. Witness I,
2 I would like you not to mention if you find any
3 relatives or close neighbours, not to mention the fact
4 because it will identify you. Just tell the Court what
5 you know, if anything, about the person I ask you.
6 Do you know anything about Mirsad Pasalic,
7 what happened to him?
8 A. (redacted)
9 (redacted). I heard that he was taken off
10 a bus when he was supposed to be transferred to Brezovo
11 Polje and that he was killed as soon as he was taken
12 off the bus. That's what I heard.
13 Q. On page 4, there is the name Mithat
15 A. (redacted)
16 (redacted). He was killed at his home, in his yard.
17 Q. The next name is Kemal Sulejmanovic.
18 A. Kemal Sulejmanovic, that is the brother of
19 Vasif Sulejmanovic. He was killed at the Laser
20 company. That's what I heard from people who were
21 brought from Laser to Luka.
22 Q. The next name is Osman Suljic.
23 A. Osman Suljic, son of Enver Suljic, (redacted)
24 (redacted). He was born in 1961. He was detained
25 together with me at the mosque. They released him from
1 Luka, and he went to the local community where he
2 lived. He was there at home with his sick father.
3 Also I heard from a lady from the neighbourhood that he
4 was killed in his garden. She said that his throat had
5 been slit.
6 Q. The next names are the names of the Terzics,
7 Ekrem Terzic, Enes Terzic, Muhamed Terzic. Very
8 shortly, Witness, if you know what happened to those
9 people, just tell us what you know, not about where
10 they lived or who their relatives were, but just
11 shortly, whether you know what happened to them. What
13 A. They were also detained at the mosque
14 together with me. Afterwards they were transferred to
15 the barracks, we were together over there too, and from
16 the barracks, they were transferred to Luka. They were
17 among the first to receive permits to get out from
18 Luka. When they were leaving, when they were going
19 home, they were waving their permits at us.
20 For one period of time, they were staying
21 with Enes's mother-in-law in the Serb part of town, and
22 when they ran out of food, they went to Kolobara, the
23 neighbourhood where they had lived.
24 I heard that they were killed at home. I
25 also heard about that from a lady in the neighbourhood
1 who had been at home during those days. She told us
2 that they were killed as follows: While an apartment
3 was being looted, they were looking through the window
4 and that the curtain on that window had moved. That
5 revealed their presence, so they were taken out of the
6 house and all three were killed.
7 I heard about that from a woman, and if it is
8 not absolutely necessary, I would not like to mention
9 her name.
10 Q. We can move now to Exhibit 13. Again, very
11 shortly, if you know what happened to these persons,
12 just tell the Court.
13 Number 1 is Midhat Sabanovic. What happened
14 to this person?
15 A. I said a few minutes ago that he was killed
16 in his own yard, by his house.
17 Q. Number 2 is also the person you already told
18 the Court about; is that correct?
19 A. Yes. Yes, but I didn't say everything about
21 Q. But you heard that he was killed?
22 A. Yes, I heard that he was killed.
23 Q. Number 5, there is the name Amir Novalic. Do
24 you know or did you hear anything about what happened
25 to this person?
1 A. I knew him very well, and I heard from people
2 at the Batkovic camp, and also at the Luka camp, that
3 he was killed in the SUP.
4 Q. Under number 9, there is the name Mustafa
5 Medinic. Do you know what happened to this person?
6 A. From the people in his street who were
7 brought in that day to the Wooden Mosque, I heard that
8 both brothers; that is to say, Mustafa Medinic and Ado
9 Medinic, were killed at home because allegedly they had
10 been accused of being snipers.
11 Q. So you just mentioned number 10, Ado Medinic,
12 as being killed. Now number 11, Irfan Topolcevic.
13 A. Irfan Topolcevic was also killed at home.
14 Q. Number 12, Irfan Suljic.
15 A. He was also killed when Mustafa Medinic was
16 killed and when Ado Medinic was killed, on that very
17 same day, because they were neighbours. Also I learned
18 of his fate in one of these three camps, the mosque,
19 Luka, Batkovici.
20 Q. Number 15 is Muhamed Jakubovic.
21 A. Muhamed Jakubovic, nicknamed Ulika, (redacted)
23 (redacted). He made goods out of
24 leather. He was killed at the gate of his own yard.
25 Q. Number 16 is Sakib Becirevic.
1 A. I knew that man too. I heard of his fate
2 from people who were exchanged, and that is how they
3 came to the federal part of the Brcko municipality. I
4 heard about this from a man -- I know his name and
5 surname -- and he said that Sakib was taken out of the
6 Partizan gym. He took him out personally or, rather,
7 Ranko Cesic took him out personally. He took off his
8 handcuffs and said that he should jump over the fence.
9 When Sakib did that, Ranko killed him. Allegedly, he
10 said that this man had started to run away.
11 Q. Thank you. The next number is 17, Sakib
13 A. Everybody in Brcko knew that man. He was an
14 excellent physician. He lived in the centre of town.
15 I heard that he remained in the occupied Brcko and that
16 he was killed around the middle of the war.
17 Q. The next names are under numbers 19, 20, 21,
18 and 22, the Terzic brothers and Kemal Sulejmanovic.
19 Are they the same people you just talked about on the
20 previous list as people being killed?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. The next name is number 23, Vasif
23 Sulejmanovic, 23.
25 (redacted). In the beginning, when they were
1 detained at the mosque, and I was present there as
2 well, a Serb soldier took me out of the Wooden Mosque
3 in the neighbourhood of Kolobara. He asked me about
4 Vasif, whether Vasif had any money on him. This Serb's
5 name was Milenko Radusic. I said to him then that I
6 did not know. I assumed that his wife had taken the
7 money away with her. Milenko Radusic said to me that
8 he heard that same story from Vasif; however, he
9 torched his house with a Zolja nevertheless.
10 I saw Vasif a few times in Brcko before I was
11 deported to the Batkovici camp. Afterwards I heard
12 that he was killed during my stay in the camp of
14 Q. Number 27 is Muhamed Zelenjakovic. Is that
15 the same person you just mentioned on the previous
17 A. I do not recall whether this was on the
18 previous list, (redacted)
19 too. He was also together with us in the Wooden Mosque
20 in Kolobara and in the medical centre. He was also
21 together with us in the barracks and in the Luka camp.
22 He was released, but then he was killed at home
23 together with his son, and his house was torched.
24 Q. Number 30, Ahmed (sic) Fatic.
25 A. Just one correction: It is Ahmet, with a
1 "T," Fatic. That is a man whom I put on that list of
2 hunters who had rifles, and I said that he was over 70
3 years old. His next-door neighbour, a lady, came to
4 see us after we left the Luka camp, and she told us
5 that on one day, she had gone to see her neighbour
6 because she got suspicious, as she was not seeing him
7 around. However, as soon as she walked into the house,
8 she smelt a stench. He lay in the room dead and the
9 body had already started to decompose. She did not
10 know whether he had been killed or whether he had died
11 a natural death.
12 Q. The next number is 36, Osman Vatic, the last
13 name on this list.
14 A. I knew Osman Vatic; I also knew his wife, as
15 well as his two daughters. I did not know that he was
16 at the Luka camp. During the war, I first saw him in
17 the Batkovic camp. That is a man who had an artificial
19 I was personally present in the camp when,
20 one day, an exchange was organised. Forty inmates from
21 the Batkovic camp were supposed to be exchanged. A
22 Serb officer then stopped the bus and said, "Take this
23 Osman Vatic too so that we could get rid of him." They
24 took him to Brcko, in front of the SUP building,
25 together with the remaining 40 men. He was the 41st.
1 They took him out in front of the SUP building and they
2 killed him. That's what I heard from the men who
3 remained in the bus at that point and later reached the
4 free point of Brcko; that is to say, the federal part
5 of Brcko.
6 Q. Thank you, Witness I.
7 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: Your Honours, I have no
8 further questions of the witness.
9 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We're going to
10 take a 20-minute break and then resume with the
11 cross-examination, I suppose, by Mr. Greaves.
12 --- Recess taken at 11.26 p.m.
13 --- On resuming at 11.55 a.m.
14 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We will now
15 resume the hearing. Have the accused brought in,
17 [The accused entered court]
18 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Greaves,
19 you may proceed.
20 MR. GREAVES: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Cross-examined by Mr. Greaves:
22 Q. Witness I, could I ask you initially, please,
23 if during my questioning of you, if you do not
24 understand the question which I ask you, please do not
25 be shy. Tell me immediately that you don't understand
1 the question and ask me either to repeat it or to
2 rephrase it. Can you do that for me, please?
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. Can I ask you, please, this concerning
5 yourself: Prior to the commencement of the war, were
6 you in any way involved in political life?
7 A. No, I was not.
8 Q. During the war or since the war, have you
9 become involved in politics?
10 A. No, I did not.
11 Q. Or joined a political party?
12 A. No, I did not.
13 page 1032 redacted
13 page 1033 redacted
13 page 1034 redacted
13 page 1035 redacted
13 page 1036 redacted
11 Q. Witness I, can I now move to this, please:
12 Between then and the time when you were detained, was
13 there an outbreak of fighting in the Brcko district?
14 A. As of that day, the 1st of May, in the
15 afternoon hours and until as time went by, we heard
16 increasingly -- we heard evermore explosions and
18 Q. Subsequently, when you were evacuated, did
19 you see signs that heavy fighting had taken place in
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. By signs of heavy fighting, did that mean
23 buildings that had been destroyed by artillery, large
24 amounts of bullet holes on buildings and things like
25 that? Would that be right?
1 A. I shall give you some information. During my
2 stay, between the 1st and the 4th of May, that is,
3 during my stay in the cellar, Serb forces brought in a
4 tank to place near the health centre, and every couple
5 of minutes or so one could hear detonations, rather, it
6 would fire off and the door to our cellar would shake
7 every time. The tank was about 70 or 80 metres away
8 from the building in which I was.
9 At that moment, that tank was targeting the
10 suburban localities Klanac, Rijeka, Suljagica Sokak,
11 and Dizdarusa. Every time it would fire and the
12 cartridge would drop on the asphalt, one could hear the
13 clinking sound of the shell. And from different
14 directions, small bullets, that is, rifle bullets,
15 would be aimed at roofs of the houses, facades,
16 windows, so that a shell fell in my yard and caused
17 damage to the roof, and felled a tree and cut the
18 telephone wire, so that --
19 JUDGE JORDA: I think you've answered the
20 question, Witness I. I don't want us to get too far
21 away from genocide. I bring you back to that. Count
22 14, we are talking about Count 14.
23 MR. GREAVES: Can I just explain, please?
24 The reason I'm exploring the existence of fighting in
25 the Brcko district in May is this: The Prosecution
1 rely on a series of mass graves which were found. The
2 Defence is entitled to explore, in our submission,
3 whether there were casualties, people killed during the
4 course of that fighting who might reasonably be
5 expected, having been killed in the circumstances of
6 war, to be placed in a mass grave, as is frequently the
7 case during fighting, because the Prosecution are, no
8 doubt, going to say that these mass graves represent
9 simply the act of genocide. So the Defence is entitled
10 to examine, we submit, whether or not there's an
11 alternative source, as it were, for the people in the
12 mass graves. That's the purpose.
13 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes, there is
14 an ambiguity, Mr. Greaves, not only in your questions
15 but in those of the Prosecutor.
16 I want to remind you that, as my colleagues
17 appropriately pointed out to me, Goran Jelisic is not
18 accused of complicity in genocide, he's accused of
19 genocide. That is the Prosecutor's accusation, which
20 is that Goran Jelisic, for the Prosecutor, had the
21 intention of destroying a significant part of the
22 Muslim population, which was Bosnian, for religious
23 reasons. That's the Statute.
24 Let us not redo the whole war in the area of
25 Brcko. Jelisic allegedly committed genocide. The
1 Judges are not the ones who put that accusation down;
2 it is the Prosecutor. I'm not only bringing you back,
3 Mr. Greaves, but also bringing the Prosecutor back to
4 the count of genocide because the accused pleaded
5 guilty to everything.
6 That doesn't concern you directly, Witness
7 I. Don't be concerned. These are legal discussions,
8 but they're very important for the accused.
9 I'm not criticising your work, Mr. Greaves.
10 I simply would not like us to move too far away from
11 Count 1.
12 MR. GREAVES: I understand that. Can I just
13 make this further explanation to Your Honour? The
14 issue of numbers of people who were killed is one which
15 is important. Your Honours have to decide inter alia
16 whether, in fact, the numbers actually killed
17 represents a sufficient or, as Your Honour described
18 it, a significant part of the Bosnia-Herzegovina Muslim
19 population. So the issue of numbers is one which is
20 important because if one is to demonstrate whether or
21 not there was someone trying to --
22 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes, I
24 MR. GREAVES: -- to demonstrate by evidence
25 that there is another source for the killings, in other
1 words, fighting, in other words, that they were not, in
2 fact, part of genocide, if there was a genocide, then
3 that's a matter which goes and is relative and a
4 probative issue which Your Honours have to try, in our
6 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes, but you
7 know that the question of the conflict, I say this to
8 the Prosecutor and to the Defence, the question of the
9 conflict is one which has been discussed at great
11 Let me remind you that even our Statute
12 doesn't speak about a conflict but says that genocide
13 means any of the following acts committed with the
14 intent to destroy in whole or in part a national,
15 ethical, rational, or religious group. I understand
16 that one can discuss what the term "part" means or the
17 word "part" means, but we have to know exactly what the
18 accused is being accused of.
19 For the time being, we are looking at Count
20 1, that is, genocide includes, and then the Prosecutor
21 has to show that those acts were committed, not through
22 direction of Republika Srpska but by Goran Jelisic with
23 the intention of destroying, in whole or in part, a
24 national, ethical, racial, or religious group. I do
1 This is the reason that I keep bringing you
2 back. It's not because I have a mania about going
3 quickly. If the trial has to be long and slow, then it
4 will be long and slow, but it has to go back to the
5 exact point, and this does not only concern you,
6 Mr. Greaves, but it concerns the Prosecutor as well.
7 Having said this, you explained what it is
8 that you are attempting to do and we thank you for
9 doing so. Please continue, but, like the Prosecutor,
10 try to remain within Count 1. Goran Jelisic has not
11 been accused of complicity of genocide. He has been
12 accused of genocide itself, at least that is Count 1 as
13 it stands today. Please continue.
14 Thank you, Witness I, for your patience.
15 Witness I, try to answer concisely when the questions
16 are asked. Let me explain why I'm saying this. The
17 Prosecutor and the Defence, in this judicial system
18 which is our own, have a plan. They know where they
19 are going. They have a purpose. Mr. Greaves is to
20 defend the accused and the Prosecutor is to demonstrate
21 what the accused is being accused of.
22 The questions may seem a bit short to you,
23 and you may feel that you have many things to say, but
24 still try to answer the questions that are asked you in
25 a very specific and concise matter.
1 Please continue, Mr. Greaves. I myself have
2 wasted some time, but I have done this with the
3 agreement of my colleagues. We deemed that this was
4 necessary. Thank you.
5 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much. Your
6 Honour, may I just ask him about whether or not there
7 were casualties there? That was the one question I
8 wanted to ask. Your Honour didn't specifically rule on
9 whether you considered that to be a relative and
10 probative matter in the context of what I was asking,
11 Your Honour.
12 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, do
13 ask your questions, Mr. Greaves.
14 MR. GREAVES: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. Mr. I, again you can answer this very
16 shortly: Were there obvious signs that there had been
17 casualties, whether civilian or military, and by
18 "casualties," I mean wounded or dead, in the signs of
19 fighting that you saw?
20 A. There were no signs to show that people, that
21 is, those who are in mass graves, were killed by
22 shells. They were all killed in a bestial way only
23 because they were Muslims or Croats, or because they
24 had belonged to a party, or simply because they did not
25 like that man, and if they happened to be at a certain
1 place, they would be killed.
2 Even if there were shelling casualties, their
3 number is negligible. These victims didn't come from
4 the town but from surrounding villages, because the
5 heavy artillery, the Serb heavy artillery targeted
6 Rahic, Palanka, Brka; that is, places outside the heart
7 of the town, properly speaking. In the town, civilians
8 perished in their own cellars, basements, homes, yards,
9 camps, or were taken away to the Sava River and shot
10 dead there, so that all the town casualties, 90
11 fatalities -- 99 per cent of the fatalities were killed
12 at close range; that is, they were shot dead, their
13 throats were slit, and by other methods.
14 Q. I'd like to ask you now, please, Mr. I, about
15 your evacuation and removal to the medical centre. Is
16 this right: that something like 150 to 200 people were
17 moved in that exercise?
18 A. On the 4th of May, at about 12.00, Serb
19 formations were going down the street on which I lived
20 and they were using the loudspeaker, inviting us to
21 come out of our houses and cellars. I suggested that
22 it would be better for us to come out and go wherever
23 they were inviting us to, that is, the health centre,
24 rather than stay in the cellar.
25 A stream of people, impotent, elderly women
1 and children made the column, and I headed that column,
2 and they brought us before the health centre. There,
3 they separated women and children and with buses which
4 were already waiting, they took them in an unknown
5 direction, and men between the ages of 15 and 75 were
6 kept in front of the health centre.
7 Q. Mr. I, you've given us an awful lot of
8 information, but you've not answered the question which
9 I asked you. Please, would you direct your mind to the
10 question which I'm asking and answer that, please. Is
11 it right that between 150 and 200 people were evacuated
12 and taken initially to the medical centre?
13 A. I would not call it an evacuation. From the
14 cellar, we were brought before the medical centre so
15 that we could be interrogated there, so that we could
16 be beaten there, so that we could be killed there.
17 They never showed any kindness to us. They beat us
18 all, one after the other, both children and old men,
19 sick and healthy.
20 Q. Mr. I, you're going to be here a lot longer
21 than is necessary if you don't answer the question. I
22 don't mind whether we call it an evacuation or an
23 exercise in moving people. How many people were
25 A. Well, that part of my neighbourhood
1 community, it's about two streets. Men, we were about
2 150, maybe 200.
3 Q. Thank you. You've told us in evidence just
4 now that the age range was people between 15 and 75, as
5 to those who were separated off and kept in front of
6 the health centre. Isn't this right: that the group
7 of people who were separated from you were women,
8 children, and males under 18 and over 60, and, indeed,
9 that is what you told the Office of the Prosecutor?
10 A. Yes, you are right. Some. Some, those
11 advanced age. They also dispatched women and children,
12 but in the mosque --
13 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] You've
14 answered, Witness I. I think that was the question
15 that Defence counsel was asking you. If he needs any
16 further details, he'll ask you for them.
17 Mr. Greaves, please proceed.
18 MR. GREAVES:
19 Q. Amongst the people who were there, were there
20 some, in fact, who were Serb men of working age?
21 A. No.
22 Q. You told the Office of the Prosecutor this:
23 that you had been told by a Serb friend that the
24 working male Serbs had been taken to the army barracks,
25 that they had been mobilised. Do you remember doing
2 A. I don't know what I should call this. This
3 man is from a mixed marriage. Yes, it is true that
4 he's called Dragan. His father was probably a Serb and
5 his mother a Muslim. He was together with us in the
7 Q. Did he give you information to that effect,
8 indeed, that those who would not go for mobilisation
9 would be beaten and forced to eat grass?
10 A. That I was told by someone else.
11 Q. Thank you. Is this right: that when you
12 were at the mosque, you were interrogated?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Were the people involved in that
15 interrogation somebody called Mauzer and somebody
16 called Kosta?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. By "Kosta," is that somebody called Kosta
20 A. Later on I learned that that was his last
22 Q. And a man of about 40; would that be about
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. The subject of the interrogation which was
1 conducted with you was, in effect, this: Mauzer
2 wanting to know what you knew about people who were
3 engaged in military activities, people who possessed
4 weapons, people who belonged to the political parties;
5 would that be right?
6 A. Yes, that's right.
7 Q. As far as two, at least, of the people whose
8 names you gave as possessing weapons, although you
9 don't know why they were killed, the information is
10 that they were subsequently killed?
11 A. Yes. Yes, all four were hunters, but only
12 two were killed.
13 Q. You've described in evidence somebody called
14 Danijel having been killed at Luka. Had you seen him
15 before at the mosque?
16 A. Yes, I saw him at the mosque. He was taken
17 to the medical centre where they interrogated him and
18 where they beat him, together with Ahmet Hodzic, Papa,
19 and the Terzic brothers.
20 Q. Ahmet Hodzic, was he beaten because he was
21 involved in politics in the area? Was that the focus
22 of why he was being ill-treated?
23 A. He was president of the local community, and
24 he was a member of the SDA. The soldiers who were
25 present there -- rather, one soldier said publicly,
1 "Why don't you say that you're president of the
2 party? Why don't you speak up?" And he said he was
3 only a member of the party, and then they said, "Get
4 out," and they took him away and he never came back.
5 Q. And what about Danijel? Was there any reason
6 for the beating that was given to him?
7 A. Danijel was accused of having had a Scorpio
8 gun at home.
9 Q. Was he a young man of military age?
10 A. He was a military-aged man; however, as far
11 as I know, he was not involved in anything. I knew him
12 personally from way back. I knew him as an exemplary
14 Q. Is it within your knowledge, Mr. I, that
15 other people whilst at the mosque were interrogated?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And again was the focus of those
18 interrogations to obtain information about organisation
19 of resistance, possession of weapons, money, property,
20 things like that?
21 A. All the time they were looking for snipers
22 who did not exist; they looked for weapons which did
23 not exist. I know a few men whom they had beaten up,
24 having accused them of having owned weapons, and I can
25 guarantee that these persons did not have weapons. So
1 that was just used as a pretext for mistreatment.
2 Q. Is this right, Mr. I: Some information was
3 given to them by somebody called Jasmin, some of
4 Fikret, the green grocer, nicknamed Binto, and from a
5 man called Midhat Kobilja, who gave them a list of
6 people who owned weapons and who were SDA members?
7 A. Yes, there were such men who agreed to talk
8 in order to save their lives, to say what was true and
9 what was not true.
10 Q. During your stay at the mosque, somebody
11 called Suljic was killed trying to escape, and
12 somebody, I think, also managed to escape completely,
13 Enes Turkusic; is that right?
14 A. Exactly. That's right.
15 Q. Just briefly one question which I hadn't
16 asked you about your own interrogation. Is this
17 right: that (redacted)
18 (redacted) you were singled
19 out almost immediately to go and be interrogated?
20 A. Yes. That's right.
21 Q. Mr. I, as a result of your interrogation, you
22 were asked about a particular shooting club, weren't
24 A. That's right.
25 Q. Did you not try to tell them that the only
1 weapons that were held by this shooting club were, in
2 fact, air guns, air weapons?
3 A. Yes. You're right. I thought that this
4 shooting club only had air guns.
5 Q. You were taken to the shooting club and a
6 search was conducted with you there; isn't that right?
7 A. No, a search was not conducted. Everything
8 that was in this shooting club was driven away in
9 automobiles, in the direction of Bijeljina. There were
10 some technical goods there, television sets, video
11 recorders, telephones. There were air guns,
12 small-calibre ammunition, and guns for competitions,
14 Q. M48 rifles, which is not an air gun, is it?
15 A. That's right, but there weren't many of
16 those. There were a few of them only. However, this
17 shooting club sometimes competed with such rifles as
19 Q. To put it very shortly, in one compartment,
20 8 cases of ammunition, 5.000 rounds of small-calibre
21 ammunition, 15 small-calibre pistols, 2 large-calibre
22 pistols, walkie-talkies, small-calibre rifles, and
23 hunting rifles, those were also recovered, weren't
25 A. I cannot recall hunting rifles, but you're
1 right as for the rest.
2 Q. After Ahmet Hodzic, otherwise known as Papa,
3 had been taken away, did the man Jasmin, who is the son
4 of the green grocer, give them further information?
5 A. At this moment I cannot recall precisely,
6 because I was not present, but I believe that he might
7 have said something.
8 Q. He named two particular individuals who had
9 owned weapons?
10 A. Yes. He did give names and these persons
11 were taken for interrogation to the medical centre, and
12 then they were brought back too. It was quite visible
13 that they had been mistreated.
14 Q. Is this right: that the Terzic brothers were
15 at the mosque?
16 A. The Terzic brothers -- the Terzic brothers
17 were at the mosque.
18 Q. Is this right: Before they interrogated one
19 of the brothers, they had already found two sniper
20 rifles at their cousin's house, Nermin Terzic, and they
21 were beating the brothers because of their relationship
22 to this man, where rifles had been found?
23 A. That's right, but I have to point out that
24 this relative of theirs had these weapons registered,
25 and he was fond of hunting and was fond of fishing
1 too. As for his weapons, they knew about it at the SUP
2 too, where there were records concerning the possession
3 of these weapons.
4 Q. Is this also right: that you were questioned
5 at one stage by a man called Milenko Radusic?
6 A. Yes. That's right.
7 Q. Who told you that someone, a sniper, had been
8 found on the roof of Vasif Sulejmanovic's house and
9 that action had been taken against the sniper's
11 A. It's not any rifle. He asked Vasif for
12 money, this Milenko did, and that's why --
13 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Answer
14 specifically. The question was whether a sniper rifle
15 was found. You say "Yes" or "No," or are you saying
16 "not at all," that you don't know, or that you -- what
17 is your answer?
18 A. No. No.
19 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Continue,
20 Mr. Greaves.
21 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, I think there's
22 some misunderstanding. What I'm suggesting is whether
23 it's right or wrong, someone had told him that a rifle
24 had been found and that that was the cause for an
25 attack on the house, not whether it's true or not. He
1 hasn't quite answered the question which I asked.
2 Perhaps I can just deal with it quickly again. Just
3 listen carefully.
4 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes. Rephrase
5 the question. Perhaps I didn't understand it quite
6 right either.
7 MR. GREAVES:
8 Q. Whether it's right or wrong as to whether
9 there was a sniper on the roof, that was the accusation
10 being made concerning Vasif Sulejmanovic's house and
11 that's what you were told?
12 A. Yes. That's right.
13 Q. The same person who told you that explained
14 that as a result of that being suspected, it had been
15 attacked with an anti-tank launcher?
16 A. That's not what that person had told me.
17 Q. The reason I ask you is that's what you told
18 the authorities in Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1993, January
20 A. I remember. I remember that Milenko Radusic
21 took me out of the mosque and asked me about Vasif
22 Sulejmanovic, whether he had any money, because this
23 Milenko Radusic was not interested in anyone who had
24 weapons, he was only interested in money, gold, and
25 things like that.
1 Q. I'd like to turn next to this please, Mr. I.
2 During your detention at the mosque, is this right,
3 that a group of Serb doctors were brought to the
4 premises and people were treated for injuries and any
5 illnesses that they might have?
6 A. Some doctors came. I don't know whether all
7 of them were Serbs. At any rate, at one point in time
8 they allowed them to enter and bandage those who had
9 wounds on their heads or other parts of their bodies.
10 Q. In due course, you were taken to the military
11 barracks. Was that all the people in the mosque?
12 A. Yes. We were taken to the barracks so that
13 others could be brought to the mosque. Some stayed
14 behind after me in the mosque and also at the medical
16 Q. When you got to the barracks, were there
17 already people there?
18 A. Yes. They were mostly people from the heart
19 of town.
20 Q. Like your group, were they men of military
21 age, that is, between 18 and 60?
22 A. Not all of them.
23 Q. The majority?
24 A. Yes. There were women too.
25 Q. And amongst those detained at the barracks,
1 also some Serbs. Is that right or not?
2 A. Are you referring to the detained Serbs or
3 the Serb soldiers?
4 Q. Detained Serbs, Mr. I.
5 A. Yes. Yes, from mixed marriages.
6 Q. Can you help me with this? At the barracks,
7 was the person who was known as Jasce, Jasmin
8 Cumurovic, was he there?
9 A. Yes. Yes, he was there.
10 Q. Was he singled out of the barracks because of
11 an allegation that he'd spat at a Serb?
12 A. Yes. He was not singled out. This person
13 who then saw him recognised him and said, "You there,
14 go for a walk. Don't make me drill you with bullets."
15 He said, "Why?" This other man replied that long ago,
16 in a cafe, he spat at a girl called Ljilja, his
18 Q. Was that somebody called Dragan Tanaskovic?
19 A. Yes, Tanaskovic.
20 Q. Did you see him at Luka, Tanaskovic?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. I want to turn now to your transfer to Luka
23 camp. How many in all of you were transferred to
25 A. There were about five buses belonging to the
1 public transportation company, the Laser Company.
2 Q. So would this be right: that about 300
3 people were transferred to Luka with you?
4 A. I assumed there were more.
5 MR. GREAVES: Sorry. Would Your Honour just
6 give me a moment? I've lost my notes.
7 Q. Significantly more than 300?
8 A. I cannot exactly tell, but there were really
9 quite a few of us. When we entered the hangar half of
10 us were there, one next to another, pushed against one
11 another, so I cannot exactly estimate how many there
13 Q. Were you placed immediately into the hangar?
14 A. No. First when the buses arrived in Luka
15 they were stopped. We waited for some time in the
16 buses, perhaps for someone to come. However, after
17 that they would open the front door next to the driver
18 and then we would leave one by one, entering the
19 hangar. Near the entrance was a box which was a paper
20 box at first, and then Goran brought a plastic box.
21 However, since this was slow, they let us all into the
22 hangar and then afterwards they started taking away our
23 personal belongings.
24 Q. When you were put into the hangar were there
25 already people there who had previously arrived at
2 A. As far as I can remember, no. At least not
3 in that room. I don't know about the rest. I only
4 know that we were ordered to take brooms, some of us,
5 and to sweep the floor in that room. There was quite a
6 bit of glass, because the bridge is nearby, and this
7 glass was broken due to the detonation when the bridge
8 was destroyed. So some people cleaned this up.
9 Then we had to sit down, and we had to keep
10 our heads down. We had to look at the floor, and we
11 had to keep our hands behind our backs.
12 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, I'm going to move
13 to a slightly different topic. I wonder if that's a
14 convenient moment.
15 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes. We
16 agree. We will resume at 2.30.
17 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 2.36 p.m.
2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We can now
3 resume the hearing. Please be seated. Have the
4 accused brought in.
5 [The accused entered court]
6 MR. NICE: Your Honour?
7 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice?
8 MR. NICE: Just before the cross-examination
9 continues, two points: First, it's been brought to our
10 attention that with all the witnesses, not just this
11 witness, when we go into the lists, there's a
12 difficulty for the administration because of the amount
13 of redaction or editing of the material that has to be
14 undertaken by your staff, and despite all their
15 conscientious industry, it's very difficult for them to
16 catch all the relevant passages that may offend the
17 privacy that's being kept for the witness's evidence.
18 It has been raised as a possibility that we
19 might deal with questions about the list in private
20 session. We're, obviously, all loathe not to have as
21 much of the trial as possible in private, but seeing
22 the scale of the difficulties that they're facing, I'm
23 certainly content to make that application, if it
24 otherwise finds favour.
25 The second thing that I'd like to mention
1 very diffidently, and I do it so as to save
2 Mr. Tochilovsky the responsibility of irritating you,
3 if I do irritate you, but it's this: I'm very
4 concerned about the length of cross-examination. It
5 does seem to me that a lot of the questions that are
6 being asked are not cross-examination at all but are
7 repeat questions which simply have the purpose of
8 taking time.
9 Now, in a case like this or in evidence like
10 this where, for example, a witness is given a name that
11 the defendant associated with himself, one of the
12 things we need to know is that accepted, that he
13 described himself in that way, or is that challenged,
14 but those things aren't being dealt with, and all we're
15 having is repetition.
16 Sorry to sound a critical note, but seeing
17 the passage of time, I thought it my duty to do so.
18 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Perhaps there's
19 an interpretation problem. I didn't quite catch the
20 end of what was said from the French interpretation.
21 When a witness has given a name -- could you rephrase
22 that, please? I didn't quite understand that.
23 I'll ask my interpreter to pay particular
24 attention to the interpretation of what the end of your
25 sentence was.
1 MR. NICE: Certainly, and perhaps I can
2 rephrase it. One of the useful functions of
3 cross-examination is this: Where evidence is given,
4 for example, that a person uses a particular name to
5 describe himself or where evidence is given that the
6 defendant has said something about his intention, one
7 of the useful purposes of cross-examination is to
8 discover if that's accepted or if it's being suggested
9 that that is incorrect, because then we all know where
10 we stand.
11 There may not have been very substantial
12 identification of issues with this particular witness
13 in that way. What we've had instead is repetition of
14 the evidence or that sort of thing. That's what's
15 troubling me.
16 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] As regards the
17 first point, I will confer with my colleagues very
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Greaves,
21 first of all, would you like to respond to what your
22 colleague on the Prosecution side said?
23 MR. GREAVES: I have no objection to us going
24 into private session when the issue of the list of
25 people is discussed. I think this morning particularly
1 demonstrated the practical difficulties, and I
2 criticise nobody in respect of that. They can arise
3 because of relationships or people living next to one
4 another or whatever it is. So I have no problem about
5 that, and Your Honours may think that's an entirely
6 practical suggestion, although I would echo my learned
7 friend's suggestion that as little as possible should
8 be done in secret; as much as possible should be done,
9 as a matter of principle, in open court. But I
10 understand the practical difficulties that are raised
11 by that.
12 As to the second matter, I reject entirely
13 the accusation of professional misconduct which has
14 been made against me, and I resent it and do not accept
15 it. Your Honour, the cross-examination this morning
16 has been made lengthy, not because I have been asking
17 repetitious questions but because the witness would not
18 answer the question which he was asked. I, therefore,
19 reject the suggestion that was made.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] The Judges have
22 decided that henceforth, the review or examination of
23 the two lists will be done in private session. I am
24 saying this for the public gallery. There are quite a
25 few people here in the public gallery who are listening
1 to us today. Only some aspects could cause that to be
2 the case, for example, that the questions deal with the
3 list that could be prejudicial to the witness.
4 We are also concerned about the length of the
5 cross-examination, and the Judges are mindful of the
6 need to conduct the proceedings according to Rule
7 90(G); that is, "(i) to make the interrogation and
8 presentation effective for the ascertainment of the
9 truth; and (ii) avoid needless consumption of time."
10 The Judges wish -- I repeat, they wish --
11 that the time of the cross-examination, as much as
12 possible -- I want this to be properly indicated -- as
13 much as possible be matched with the length of the
14 examination-in-chief, of course, with a degree of
15 flexibility and suppleness which is to the advantage of
16 the accused. Otherwise, it would be very easy for the
17 Prosecution to conduct the examination-in-chief for
18 three minutes and then to say to the Defence that he
19 has only three minutes to cross-examine the witness.
20 The Judges have been given certain powers by
21 the texts and will apply those powers. I won't even
22 say the rule; I'll say the principle applied with as
23 much care as possible, that as much as possible, that
24 should be our criterion and this is the way we should
25 go, that the time of the cross-examination, as much as
1 possible, should be -- I repeat, as much as possible --
2 matched with the length of the examination-in-chief.
3 Then we move to Rule 90(H), that
4 the "cross-examination shall be limited to the
5 subject-matter of the direct examination ..." This is
6 a fundamental rule. Naturally, the Prosecutor has
7 called in his witness, brings out a certain number of
8 points, and the cross-examination is to deal with those
9 very points.
10 Obviously, I am not unaware of the fact, and
11 this is the third question, of the need to discuss the
12 credibility of the witness, but the
13 examination-in-chief is not limited to any points;
14 therefore, the cross-examination must be able to bring
15 out any questions of credibility as well.
16 Lastly, I would ask Mr. Greaves not to have
17 the witness repeat things needlessly. Questions can be
18 asked simply by saying, "You said this during your
19 examination-in-chief," and then we're going to go into
20 subsequent questions which you might consider to be
21 appropriate. This is how we feel that we could try to
22 be sure that by the 17th, Friday, the presentation of
23 the Prosecution's case could be completed.
24 Last point, and in agreement with my
25 colleagues, these Rules which now apply to the Defence
1 will apply mutatis mutandis to the Prosecution when the
2 Defence calls in its own principal witnesses.
3 We can now continue, and I say to the public,
4 this is the cross-examination of a protected witness
5 whom we are calling Witness I.
6 Mr. Greaves, you may proceed. Let me ask you
7 right now to tell us approximately how much time you
8 will need. You've used up about an hour and fifteen
9 minutes, an hour and ten minutes. I think that's
11 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. Well, it was one hour.
12 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] You took one
13 hour. So you have been cross-examining for an hour,
14 but you must acknowledge that the Prosecution, with its
15 own witness, used how much time?
16 THE REGISTRAR: They used one hour and ten
18 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Therefore, of
19 course, we are not going to impose a necessity to
20 finish within the next ten minutes. We are applying
21 these Rules with flexibility and in the full respect of
22 the rights of the accused, and that is why we're asking
23 approximately how much more time you need? I will also
24 ask the witness to answer more concisely, as far as is
1 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, I think to be
2 fair, it was closer to an hour and a half that the
3 Prosecution took for this witness this morning.
4 JUDGE JORDA: I must say, Mr. Greaves, that I
5 thought it had lasted -- I thought that it lasted about
6 an hour and a half.
7 Are you sure, Mr. Registrar, when you give us
8 these numbers?
9 MR. GREAVES: I thought we started promptly
10 this morning and it finished at about 11.25, which is
11 as near as you care to wish to an hour and a half.
12 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes.
13 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, can I return to
14 the difficulty of witnesses not answering questions?
15 I'm going to make it plain that I'm not going to
16 interrupt witnesses whilst they are speaking, because I
17 know that the next objection that will come is that I'm
18 harassing the witness.
19 It really has to be for Your Honour to draw
20 to the witness's attention as soon as he starts to
21 stray from the question. If you look at the questions
22 I'm asking, they're about two lines on average, in
23 length. They're directed to a specific topic.
24 The problem continues to be that the
25 witnesses do not answer the question which they have
1 been asked but answer some question which they would
2 like to have been asked.
3 So I'm not going to start interrupting them
4 halfway through, because I know the allegation is then
5 going to be, "You're harassing them," and that's
7 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] No, no, no.
8 We're not talking about harassing the witness. You can
9 interrupt the witness. That's your right. We've seen
10 this in other trials in this Tribunal. But it is true
11 that we all, I'm not specifically speaking to Witness I
12 but, Witness, I must know that this Tribunal has got
13 some history behind it now and whether it's the Judges,
14 the Prosecutor, or the Defence or Prosecution, we are
15 very sensitive to the suffering that you experienced.
16 We're familiar and understand what happened to you in
17 this dreadful hangar where you were, and it is rather
18 cruel and savage to say to a witness abruptly, "You're
19 not answering the question." That's why we try to
20 apply our rules with flexibility, but I am asking you
21 to try to focus. The Defence must be able to do its
22 work and it's work is to defend the accused. That's
23 what a judicial institution in a democratic society
24 does. I really ask you to focus on the questions and
25 to answer the questions.
1 When you want to develop something, I cannot
2 interrupt you too much when you're speaking about what
3 you experienced, but in the future I won't hesitate to
4 do so to some extent because those are going to come
5 after you, the other witnesses, the other victims, must
6 also have time to express themselves.
7 Do you understand what I'm saying? Do
8 understand me?
9 A. [No audible response]
10 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] All right.
11 We'll -- Mr. Greaves, you did not give an answer about
12 how much time you think you need to complete your
13 cross-examination if the witness answers properly.
14 MR. GREAVES: I anticipate being done in
15 under an hour.
16 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I hope it
17 really will be under an hour. I ask that it be that
18 way. Please proceed.
19 MR. GREAVES:
20 Q. Mr. I, you told us this morning about some
21 glass that you found in the hangar, which was broken.
22 Just very quickly, there was around the top of the
23 hangar a line of windows. Did it come from those
24 windows? Were the windows broken when you got there?
25 A. I suppose so.
1 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Greaves, he
2 wanted to explain something. He said that the hangar
3 has windows, there were explosions, and did these --
4 was that the cause of the broken windows. You don't
5 have to -- that was already explained. I even noted
6 that. So please move to the next question.
7 MR. GREAVES:
8 Q. As far as the numbers were concerned who were
9 detained with you, was that 300 -- or have I asked
10 that? I'm sorry. I've made a note there -- at Luka?
11 A. I believe you asked that question already. I
12 cannot give you the exact number, but I think -- my
13 guess is there were more than 300.
14 Q. During the course of the day that you were
15 there, were people released?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Were they released after interrogation?
18 A. Some were interrogated at Luka and then were
19 released. Some were interrogated at the mosque and
20 then they were released. I mean, such as, for
21 instance, brothers Terzic.
22 Q. Would those people --
23 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We're speaking
24 about the hangar, Witness I.
25 A. Some were released from Luka after
1 interrogation, and some were not interrogated there and
2 yet were released nevertheless.
3 MR. GREAVES:
4 Q. The people who were released from Luka, what
5 proportion of the people who were detained with you
6 were released?
7 A. Two groups were released. A smaller group of
8 about ten people, and the second group, and I was one
9 of them, between -- something between 30 and 40
11 Q. Do you know if they were issued with a pass
12 or any document to enable them to be released?
13 A. Yes. They were issued passes which were
14 printed and one only had to fill in one's name. I was
15 issued that pass but it simply went -- came to pieces
16 at the Batkovic camp.
17 Q. When you say "printed," is that typewritten
18 or printed, as it were, by a printing machine?
19 A. I think it was a copying machine of a kind.
20 Q. The pass which you were issued with, was that
21 signed in your presence?
22 A. These release documents were signed in
23 advance, so all one did was fill in the names.
24 Q. Were you able to read who it was who had
25 signed your pass?
1 A. I only know there was a seal of Semberija
2 Majevica, and as for the signature, it was illegible.
3 Q. After you had been released, did you use that
4 pass in order to move about and make your way around?
5 A. With that pass I managed to come out with the
6 rest of the group as far as the Es locality, but the
7 next day they took them away and said they were not
8 valid, and we were told that we had to go and be issued
9 a different pass from the SUP. Ranko Cesic came and
10 tore up those passes.
11 Q. I want to ask you now something about which
12 you heard in connection with the murder of the brothers
13 from Zvornik. Is it correct that you heard Goran
14 Jelisic say that they had positively been identified as
15 Green Berets, that they were Albanians from Kosovo who
16 had come to fight against the Serbs?
17 A. I don't think that that question asked of me
18 is correct. All he said was that they were identified
19 as Green Berets and that we would see how they should
20 be treated. He never mentioned Kosovo. All he said
21 was that they were Albanians, that they were Sqiptars,
22 and they came from Zvornik.
23 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Please
24 continue. The answer's been given.
25 MR. GREAVES: Well, with respect, I want to
1 put something to him that is inconsistent with that, if
2 you wouldn't mind, please.
3 Q. It's right, isn't it, that you made a
4 statement to the Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities on the
5 3rd of January, 1993, Mr. I. Do you recall doing
7 A. Some of it.
8 Q. Did you sign the statement at the end of
9 making it?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Do you accept that you concluded the
12 statement with the following paragraph:
13 "Finally I declare here that I have stated
14 my personal observations, that all I have said is true
15 and correct, and I shall confirm it with my signature,
16 standing prepared to repeat what I have said in court
17 or before a humanitarian organisation should there be
19 Do you accept that's how you concluded that
21 A. At the time I gave the statement to the
22 Bosnia-Herzegovinan authorities, I had not taken any
23 oath then. I needed time, in conversation with others
24 who were present, to simply put everything in its
1 Q. Amongst those who were issued passes that
2 day, did that include the brothers Terzic, the three
3 brothers, Muhamed, Ekrem, and Enes?
4 A. [No audible response]
5 Q. Sorry, the transcript has indicated there was
6 no audible response, but I heard him say something.
7 Could you please answer again, Mr. I? I'm
9 A. You want me to repeat my last answer? Yes,
10 they were brothers Terzic.
11 Q. Were they issued passes?
12 A. They were issued passes with that group.
13 They left before me. They waved at us with their
14 passes as they left.
15 Q. When the question of your brother being
16 issued with an ID card or a pass came up and Goran
17 Jelisic was there, is this correct: that the man,
18 Dragan Tanaskovic, was also there and was watching what
19 was going on?
20 A. Yes, it is correct.
21 Q. Is it also correct that Goran Jelisic
22 deferred to him when the issue of whether either just
23 your brother or both of you were to be released, and
24 Dragan Tanaskovic said, "Both of them"?
25 A. I think that, at the time -- Goran Jelisic
1 had more sway at the time, but Dragan, since he knew
2 him before that, asked him to release the two of us.
3 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation]
4 Mr. Tochilovsky?
5 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: I would like the Defence,
6 when they refer to the witness statement, just to refer
7 to it correctly, because in the statement it says:
8 "Goran glanced at him and Dragan said ...", and the
9 witness was asked whether it is true that Goran asked
10 permission and he was given permission. Instead it
11 says, "Goran glanced at him," and that's it. Thank
13 MR. GREAVES: Well, it would be helpful if my
14 learned friend would intervene and correctly refer to
15 the question I asked, which was: "Is it correct that
16 Goran Jelisic deferred to him," not the word "asked."
17 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: In the question it says
18 "Goran Jelisic deferred to him when the issue of
19 either just your brother or both of you were to be
21 It's not in the statement. It's not there.
23 MR. GREAVES: It rather depends on what
24 construction you put on the act of glancing at
1 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] The Judges have
2 been alerted to this misunderstanding, and they will
3 have these declarations tendered as exhibits at the
4 proper time. Please continue.
5 MR. GREAVES: Sorry. You'll just have to
6 give me a moment, please.
7 Q. Were you able, please, Mr. I, during the
8 course of your detention at Luka on that day, able to
9 overhear an interrogation carried out by Ranko Cesic?
10 A. I was pretty far away from the room or,
11 rather, from the office where Ranko took the people he
12 interrogated, so I only heard him cussing, and I heard
13 moans from that room.
14 Q. Did you, later that day, hear Ranko Cesic
15 saying something else concerning passes?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Is this correct: that he appeared from an
18 office and demanded to know who it was who had been
19 issuing passes?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did he express anger on that occasion because
22 passes had been issued to you and other people, and
23 that they were members of the SDA? Whether he was
24 right or wrong about the membership, he was angry about
25 members of the SDA being released.
1 A. I just have to say that I wasn't the member
2 of any party. However, I imagine that he was angry
3 because I had received a pass, because I was involved
4 in an incident before the war, several years before the
5 war, in a cafe.
6 Q. What you told the Office of the Prosecutor is
7 this, and I shall read it out so there is to doubt
8 about what is being said:
9 "While waiting to get a pass, Ranko came out
10 and said, 'Who is issuing the passes?' Ranko was mad
11 at me, I believe, because some of my friends and
12 relatives were members of the SDA party."
13 Do you recall telling the Office of the
14 Prosecutor that?
15 A. I recall that. However, I assumed that he
16 was angrier on account of me, because he didn't know my
17 relatives at all.
18 Q. Well, what gave you cause to believe, as you
19 told the Office of the Prosecutor, that he was
20 referring not just to you but members of your family?
21 Was it something which he said?
22 A. Out of all my relatives that I know, only one
23 was a member of the SDA party, but I doubt that Ranko
24 knew that particular relative of mine. All the rest
25 were not involved in parties at all or were members of
1 the SDP.
2 Q. In due course, did you form a line in order
3 to receive passes?
4 A. We did not form in a line. We stood in
5 disarray, perhaps in two or three lines.
6 Q. During the course of waiting for your pass,
7 did you become aware of two other people, inspectors,
8 Petar Kaurinovic and Dragisa Tesic, in an office?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Is this correct: that they were engaged in
11 the task of checking some printouts from the SUP
13 A. I presume, because they were in a room that
14 was just by the entrance, on the right-hand side, where
15 there is a window and where there were curtains. Quite
16 a few people got out of Luka with their assistance.
17 Q. What I want to ask you is this: You were
18 able to form the opinion, from what you could see, that
19 it was they who were deciding who should be set free
20 and they who were deciding who should be shot; isn't
21 that correct?
22 A. I cannot claim that which I did not see.
23 Q. Well, Mr. I, what you told the authorities in
24 Bosnia-Herzegovina, in 1993, was this:
25 "While this was all going on, police
1 inspectors Petar Kaurinovic and Dragisa Tesic were in
2 the next office checking the printouts from the SUP
3 files, and deciding with one nod of the head who was
4 going to be set free and who was to be shot."
5 That's what you observed, isn't it, and
6 that's why you told the Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities
7 about it?
8 A. If necessary, I'm going to clarify this.
9 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes. I would
10 like you to explain that answer, please.
11 A. These two inspectors, they brought files from
12 the SUP, from IDs that were in the SUP. Lists had
13 already been made of persons who were undesirable in
15 Goran went to this office and probably got
16 IDs from them, that is to say, the IDs of persons whose
17 documents were taken out, that is to say, these files.
18 However, I cannot say that they were the ones who said
19 who was to be shot and who was not to be shot, because
20 I realised for myself that Goran, Sok, and Ranko had
21 shot people dead without any IDs.
22 MR. GREAVES:
23 Q. I want to ask you now about the time at Luka
24 when Jasmin Cumurovic was taken by Ranko into a
25 building. Do you recall seeing Goran Jelisic appearing
1 and coming to talk to the detainees?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Isn't it right that he said this: "Those who
4 aren't guilty should not be afraid. I'm only
5 interested in the Territorial Defence and Green
7 He also added that civilians would stay for
8 awhile and then be released.
9 A. Yes. That's precisely what I meant.
10 Q. What did you understand the word "civilians"
11 to mean?
12 A. I think that civilians are all of those who
13 were in their homes, who were with their families, with
14 their children, who were not at any front line or
15 anything, simply those who were left to the mercy of
16 the men who came from the outside, and people who were
17 from the vicinity of the town of Brcko as well as from
18 the town of Brcko itself. Naturally, these people were
19 of Serb ethnicity.
20 Q. Can you help us, please, about this: You
21 mentioned in one of the two statements that you made
22 before giving evidence about Danijel, I think,
23 Ibrahimovic being beaten at the mosque, but you did not
24 mention anything about being a witness to his murder.
25 Can you explain that?
1 A. Yes, I can. I knew that man in part.
2 Although he lived in my neighbourhood, I saw him only a
3 few times in my lifetime. During the aggression, I
4 first saw him at the mosque. He was taken out of there
5 and taken to the medical centre. They interrogated him
6 there because he was accused of possessing a Scorpion
8 After that, while I was at the barracks, I
9 did not see him because most probably he stayed back at
10 the medical centre. However, in Luka, I did see him in
11 the afternoon. It was already getting dark. He was
12 brought in from the main entrance to the Luka camp, and
13 he passed by our group where we were waiting for
14 passes, and then he was taken away to be liquidated.
15 I have to draw your attention to the
16 following: I did not exactly see who killed him,
17 whether it was Goran or Enver, because my brother, who
18 was very close to me, he shielded me with his body and
19 said that I shouldn't look in that direction. I
20 presume that he thought that some of the guards could
21 have seen me watching this and then I could have been
22 liquidated because of that.
23 When I heard two shots, I managed, between my
24 brother and another man, to glance in that direction.
25 Danijel lay 20 or 30 metres away from us. He was
1 wearing a leather jacket.
2 Q. Mr. I, you haven't answered the question,
3 with respect. Why was it that the only mention you
4 make in your statements of Danijel was about him being
5 beaten at the mosque, and you made no mention whatever
6 about his murder? Don't go into the details of it
7 again. Just answer the question, please.
8 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] This is under
9 point 18 of the summary, Mr. Greaves.
10 MR. GREAVES: Yes. The summary isn't --
11 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] You're talking
12 about the statement to Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that
14 MR. GREAVES: In the statement to
15 Bosnia-Herzegovina, in the statement to the Office of
16 the Prosecutor. I haven't mentioned the summary.
17 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] All right. To
18 the authorities, yes. Excuse me.
19 A. I shall answer that question. I was not sure
20 who had done it. That's why I didn't say.
21 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] The witness has
22 already explained the contradictions between one
23 statement and the other. Let me remind you of that,
24 Mr. Greaves. Thank you very much.
25 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, I have one other
1 matter to put to him that -- I'm sorry. I hadn't
2 realised Your Honour was speaking to one of your other
4 Your Honour, there is one other matter which
5 I want to ask him about as to why that doesn't appear,
6 if he --
7 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] No, no, no.
8 Excuse me.
9 MR. GREAVES:
10 Q. You claim to have seen Goran Jelisic at
11 Batkovic camp, and you told us the circumstances of
12 that. In the statements which you made, firstly, to
13 the Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities and to the Office of
14 the Prosecutor, why didn't you mention that visit,
15 Mr. I?
16 A. Because I think that it is necessary for me
17 to say, at least now, that that man was killed on that
18 day; however, unfortunately, I did not see who had
19 killed him. I just saw Goran and Enver coming back
20 from the murder scene.
21 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] That isn't the
22 question that you were asked.
23 A. I don't understand. Please, could you
24 clarify this?
25 MR. GREAVES:
1 Q. It's quite simple, Mr. I --
2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Greaves
3 will rephrase his question.
4 MR. GREAVES:
5 Q. You have given evidence of having seen Goran
6 Jelisic at Batkovic camp and the circumstances
7 surrounding that visit. You did not refer to having
8 seen Goran Jelisic at Batkovic camp in either your
9 statement to the Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities or to
10 the Office of the Prosecutor.
11 Please can you explain to Their Honours why,
12 if that was a matter which was sufficiently important
13 for you to tell us about it, you didn't mention it on
14 those previous occasions.
15 A. I can give you a quick answer to that
16 question. The reason is the following: The
17 Bosnia-Herzegovinian authorities, when they questioned
18 me, they were only interested in Luka, not in the
19 Batkovic camp. Also when I gave this other statement,
20 they were only interested in Luka. When I wanted to
21 say what else had happened in the camp, they said,
22 "That's not necessary."
23 MR. GREAVES: If Your Honours can give me a
24 moment, something has just been drawn to my attention.
25 [Defence counsel confers]
1 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, a problem has
2 arisen which I think I'd like to have discussed in the
3 absence of the witness, please.
4 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Without the
5 witness or in a closed session?
6 MR. GREAVES: Without the witness, Your
8 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I wish to
9 consult my colleagues.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I ask
12 Mr. Greaves and Mr. Nice or Mr. Tochilovsky to approach
13 the Judges with an interpreter and to explain what is
14 at stake. Otherwise, we're going to use up a lot of
15 time having the witness go in and out of the
16 courtroom. I would like to have an interpreter and
17 speak with you.
18 [Trial Chamber and counsel confer]
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Witness I,
21 please take your headset off and please remain seated.
22 Mr. Greaves, this is a decision which is very
23 pretentious. We have lost a lot of time in this case,
24 and the Judges are mindful of the fact that the accused
25 has rights, but they would like your position to be
1 perfectly justified, and if it isn't, the Judges
2 obviously would draw the proper conclusions in the
4 Please proceed.
5 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, may I draw your
6 attention to the last answer which the witness gave,
7 which is this: The reason he gave for not having
8 discussed the matter beforehand was that in the two
9 statements he gave, those questioning him were only
10 interested in Luka camp.
11 The statement which he has made to the
12 Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities contains in the original
13 version, but not in the English version which was
14 disclosed to us, a section which clearly reveals that
15 this witness was being asked about both Luka and
16 Batkovic. The English version reads in the following
17 way: It gives at the head, at the top of the page, an
18 indication of who it is who's taken the statement. It
19 then gives a date and the legal basis for taking the
20 statement, and then there's a line which says "Record
21 of witness statement," and then there's a section which
22 is written in English, which is not contained in the
23 Bosnia-Herzegovina statement, which describes the legal
24 authority for giving of such a decree.
25 What, in fact, is missing is a paragraph
1 containing ten lines which details what it was the
2 person was being asked about and who he was, and it's
3 that passage that contains in the original but not in
4 the disclosed English version the fact that this
5 witness was being asked about Luka and Batkovic. It's
6 not in the English version.
7 I've had a quick look at similar statements
8 that have been disclosed to us, and as far as I can
9 see, and my recollection is that no statement contains
10 that similar section. I'm told that the Bosnian
11 versions all contain that.
12 The consequences of that are that those who
13 have to work from the English version are being
14 deprived of what is plainly an important part of what
15 should have been disclosed, and what it appears is that
16 editing has taken place, editing which cannot be
17 justified on the grounds, for example, of national
18 security, which has prevented the English-speaking
19 member of the Defence from knowing properly what, in
20 fact, the full contents of this statement is.
21 As I say, it seems to me that this applies to
22 all the other statements of a similar nature which have
23 been disclosed to us.
24 Your Honour will see from the last question
25 and the last answer that was given that if that had not
1 been brought to my attention, I would have been
2 deprived of knowing what it was he was asked about. Of
3 course, that represents a considerable unfairness to
4 the defendant because quite clearly the paragraph in
5 the Bosnian language version reveals that, in fact,
6 that's what they were directing his attention to.
7 Your Honour, my concern is this: We need to
8 know how many other statements contain passages which
9 have been excised, and that excision needs to be
10 rectified immediately because, otherwise, we cannot
11 continue properly to prepare our case if improper and
12 inadequate disclosure has taken place, and if for some
13 reason someone has excised from each statement
14 potentially valuable information.
15 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation]
16 Mr. Tochilovsky?
17 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: Your Honours, I'd like to
18 make some corrections to what was said by the Defence.
19 The statement was given by the witness to the
20 Bosnian authorities in Bosnian, not in English. The
21 original document is in Bosnian. According to 66 of
22 our procedures, the statements disclosed to the Defence
23 should be disclosed in the language the accused
24 understands. The statements were disclosed in Bosnian,
25 which both the accused and its lead counsel understand,
1 their native language.
2 The English version of this statement is
3 actually our internal document which was prepared for
4 our investigators, because our investigators don't
5 understand Bosnian. They don't speak Bosnian. So
6 those statements which were taken by he Bosnian
7 government in Bosnia were translated into English.
8 So according to our obligation, we disclosed
9 to the Defence the original document in Bosnian with
10 all paragraphs. It is in the possession of the
11 Defence. The Defence has had the opportunity to read
12 it and to interpret it in any way they want.
13 With regard to that English version which was
14 prepared for our internal consumption, let's say, if
15 Defence is not satisfied with the quality of that
16 translation, they can return to us all this English
17 translation because it's not disclosure of statement.
18 Disclosure of statement is disclosure of statement in
20 With regard to this specific paragraph, I
21 think that that paragraph was taken away, because it
22 is -- if you look at that paragraph, it is information
23 which identified the witness. It starts with his name,
24 with the place of birth, date of birth, the number of
25 his identity card, where he lived, what was his --
1 where he worked, who were his relatives.
2 At the end of this paragraph, which is
3 separate, it is not part of the body of the statement,
4 it is the introduction paragraph about the identity of
5 the person, and this paragraph says that the witness
6 was asked -- such and such witness with this identity,
7 he was asked about events which happened in the town of
8 Brcko, camp Luka and Batkovic, in Gornji Rahic and so
10 So this paragraph, this information, contains
11 identity information. It was taken out, I think, by
12 our investigators, but the statement, the original
13 statement, was disclosed without any redaction. As we
14 received it from the Office of the Prosecutor, it was
15 entirely in the same format disclosed to the Defence,
16 and Defence has it in Bosnian, in the original language
17 of the statement, in the language that both the accused
18 and lead counsel understand. Thanks.
19 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, with great
20 respect, my learned friend has just answered the point
21 that he made. It has nothing do with concealing the
22 identity of the witness if in the original all that
23 information is given to the Defence in any event. So
24 the point that he's making about this is the reason why
25 it's done is absolute nonsense, with respect to him.
1 Secondly, can I draw Your Honours' attention
2 to the rule which governs disclosure of potentially
3 exculpatory material, which is Rule 68, and the
4 terminology of that Rule.
5 It reads as follows:
6 "The Prosecutor shall, as soon as
7 practicable, disclose to the Defence the existence of
8 evidence known to the Prosecutor which in any way tends
9 to suggest the innocence or mitigate the guilt of the
10 accused or may affect the credibility of Prosecution
12 Your Honour, it is under that rule which
13 potentially inconsistent statements are disclosed,
14 because that is evidence which may affect the
15 credibility of a witness.
16 Your Honour, that is the entire text of the
17 rule, as I understand it. It makes no mention of
18 disclosure under that Rule being made in a language
19 which the defendant understands.
20 The Rule which does mention that is
21 Rule 66, which confines itself to two classes of
22 documents. Rule 66 says:
23 "Subject to the provisions of Rules 53 and
24 69, the Prosecutor shall make available to the Defence,
25 in a language which the accused understands ..."
1 And it then identifies two categories of
2 documents. This document does not fall into either of
3 those two categories, with great respect. And, Your
4 Honour, those who framed the rules must clearly have
5 had in mind that that requirement concerning language
6 should be specifically restricted to those classes of
8 Your Honour, we submit again that there has
9 been a disclosure of a document which has been edited
10 in a way which is not justified by the needs of --
11 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Just a moment,
12 Mr. Greaves. The statement that was made before the
13 Bosnian authorities, was that statement given to you in
14 a language that the accused understands and
15 Mr. Londrovic understands in its most complete
16 form, "Yes" or "No"?
17 MR. GREAVES: Yes, it was. Yes --
18 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Let me turn to
19 Mr. Londrovic, who is the lead counsel.
20 Did you have that statement? Mr. Londrovic,
21 answer us. Did you have the statement made to the
22 Bosnian authorities, and you read each of those in
23 order to bring out contradictions between that
24 statement and the statement made to the Prosecutor?
25 The entire statement, did you have it?
1 MR. LONDROVIC: I personally did, Your
3 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Did Mr. Greaves
4 have the complete statement?
5 MR. LONDROVIC: Mr. Greaves, in the English
6 version of a statement that he had, he did not have the
7 complete text.
8 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Are you chief
9 counsel, are you lead counsel, Mr. Londrovic, for the
11 MR. LONDROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
12 I am lead counsel, but --
13 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Do you have an
14 interpreter paid by the Tribunal to facilitate your
15 work with your co-counsel, Mr. Greaves, in the
16 team, "Yes" or "No."
17 MR. LONDROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
18 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Let me now turn
19 to my colleagues.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, can I just add one
22 matter, please?
23 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] But one point,
24 one point, because we've lost a lot of time now. We've
25 spent a lot of time. I'm going to give you the right
1 to speak -- to say one point and only one. Then we'll
2 take a break.
3 Mr. Londrovic is the leader. He's had the
4 version in Serbo-Croat since the beginning. It's up to
5 you to coordinate things. In all the trials here, it
6 is frequently the Serbo-Croat part that does the
7 cross-examination when it is a Serbo-Croatian-speaking
8 witness. It's not our fault that you are speaking
9 English and only speaking English.
10 I ask you to deal with the one point and only
11 the one point that you can speak about now. We're
12 wasting a lot of time, and I'm not prepared to continue
13 wasting this much time. One point and one alone.
14 Quickly, please.
15 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, the registry does
16 not pay for documents which are already placed in the
17 hands of the Defence, in English, to be translated
18 again and it's impossible for us to secure that. We do
19 have an interpreter, but we have not been given
20 permission to have documents which have been given to
21 us in English retranslated, because she would simply
22 not be paid.
23 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] All right. I
24 think that you have an interpreter. First of all, you
25 had a statement in Serbo-Croat. It was given to the
1 Defence team's leader, Mr. Londrovic. You have a
2 translation system and interpretation system. There
3 are contradictions or perhaps there are gaps in the
4 translation. This is not the problem for the timing of
5 the Judges. We've wasted a lot of time.
6 We're going to take a 15-minute break, and we
7 will resume with the cross-examination, and I will ask
8 you to complete it within a minimal amount of time, 15
9 minutes at the most. Court stands adjourned.
10 --- Recess taken at 4.00 p.m.
11 --- On resuming at 4.18 p.m.
12 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We will resume
13 the hearing. Have the accused brought in, please.
14 [The accused entered court]
15 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Pursuant to
16 90(G) and 90(H), to which I would like to refer you but
17 which I've quoted several times already, Mr. Greaves, I
18 ask you to finish your cross-examination in 15
19 minutes. We grant you 15 minutes to complete your
20 cross-examination. Thank you. It is about a quarter
21 after, twenty after four. We give you 15 minutes to
22 get to the essentials about what was dealt with in the
24 Please proceed. The floor is yours.
25 MR. GREAVES:
1 Q. Mr. I, I'd like to turn now, please, to the
2 list of people about whom you were asked in
3 examination-in-chief, and if I'm --
4 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Ordinarily, we
5 would move into a private session when we deal with the
6 list, at least that's what we decided a few moments
7 ago, and I think everybody agreed.
8 Therefore, Mr. Registrar, I ask that this be
9 in private session.
10 [Private session]
13 page 1096 redacted – private session
13 page 1097 redacted – private session
13 page 1098 redacted – private session
13 page 1099 redacted – private session
13 page 1100 redacted – private session
13 page 1101 redacted – private session
11 [Open session]
12 MR. TOCHILOVSKY:
13 Q. Was it true that the Muslims constituted the
14 majority of the population of the town?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Those areas that were shelled, were they
17 Serb-populated areas or not? Were the areas shelled
18 Serbian-populated areas or Muslim-populated areas?
19 A. Serb areas were not shelled at all. The
20 shells were aimed at areas and at places such as Brka
21 Palanka, Rahic, Maoca, and other suburban settlements
22 such as Dizdarusa, Klanac, Begovaca, Brod, which were
23 almost exclusively Muslim, Suljagica Sokak.
24 Q. My last question is: In an answer to the
25 Defence, you said some Serbs from mixed marriages were
1 among those detained in the barracks. Does it mean
2 that those Serbs were married to non-Serbs, including
3 Muslims? Is that correct?
4 A. No.
5 Q. What do you mean by "mixed marriages"? What
6 do you mean by that?
7 A. I suppose a Serb mother and father, a Muslim,
8 or the other way around. Those people were released
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: I have no further
12 questions, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you. We
14 are almost finished with your testimony, Witness I, but
15 I know my colleagues have a few questions to ask. Let
16 me first turn to Judge Riad.
17 Questioned by the Court:
18 JUDGE RIAD: Good afternoon, Witness I. I
19 would just like to understand some certain things, and
20 perhaps you can help me.
21 You were detained on May 4, 1992. Do you
22 have an idea why you were arrested or detained? Did
23 they tell you or did you try to find out?
24 A. I still don't know why. I had a number of
25 friends among people of other origin. That is, I had
1 more Serb and Croat friends than Muslims before the
2 war. My father brought up me that way, not to
3 distinguish people between their ethnic origin, only to
4 distinguish between good and bad people.
5 Unfortunately, when it started in Brcko, I
6 was surprised to see how those friends of mine
7 behaved. That is, not all of them but some of them
8 would pass me by without even saying hello. I didn't
9 expect anything more than that, just, "Hello," from
10 them, but somebody -- somebody instilled, somebody
11 imparted a hatred, somebody instilled hatred in their
12 subconscious and they practically changed overnight. A
13 few months before that -- a couple of months before
14 that we would go to discotheques, coffee shops.
15 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you. You just mentioned
16 also that a few years before you had an incident in a
17 cafe. Was that with Serbs? Did you take a stand
18 against the Serbs in this incident in the cafe?
19 A. No. That incident was of a short duration.
20 Quite simply, the place was about to close and I was
21 about to go home, but Ranko Cesic came up, and he was
22 quite under the influence, and we had an argument and
23 he slapped me in the face. So I, of course, paid him
24 back. That was why I was afraid that he might see me
25 in Luka. But that happened two years before the
1 beginning of the war.
2 JUDGE RIAD: That had no relation with your
4 A. No.
5 JUDGE RIAD: It was only for ethnic reasons,
6 because you are a Bosnian Muslim?
7 A. Yes.
8 JUDGE RIAD: So why did they hate after that,
9 because, as you said, you denounced four people? That
10 was the reason?
11 A. I doubt that that was the reason. No. They
12 would have released me immediately, because a couple of
13 days had passed since I gave those four names. So that
14 was not the reason.
15 The reason was that I was a good friend, a
16 good chum of that Dragan Tanaskovic, and when he got
17 home he told his mother that he had seen me at the
18 barracks, and she told him that he should go and find
19 me and not to come home without me. It was his mother,
20 because she was very fond of me.
21 JUDGE RIAD: Can I understand that if it was
22 not for this friend, for this Serb friend, you would
23 not have gone out, or anybody else would not be
24 liberated if he did not have a Serb friend?
25 A. Yes. Yes, that is it.
1 JUDGE RIAD: You also mentioned that the man
2 named Danijel Ibrahimovic was detained because he had a
3 Scorpion military gun and then he was liquidated. Was
4 this one of the reasons why people are liquidated or it
5 could have happened even without that?
6 A. It could have happened even without that, and
7 in many instances that was the case, even without it.
8 Quite simply -- I shall give you an example.
9 In the building in the Es settlement, and
10 then next to that building there was another building,
11 and they took away a guy from that building -- and he
12 was the state champion in kayak -- only because he was
13 good looking, because he was an athlete, and because he
14 had a good car.
15 JUDGE RIAD: So that was also a reason for
16 being liquidated?
17 A. That's right.
18 JUDGE RIAD: It could happen to anyone, is
19 that what you want to say? To the rich and to the
21 A. I can give you another example. At Luka, at
22 night, when it was dark you can't really see who's
23 who. They simply pull somebody by his sleeve and say,
24 "You stand up." They don't know who he is, they can't
25 see him, but they take him away and liquidate him. Or
1 just kicks him, pushes him with his foot and says, "You
2 stand up." There were quite a number of such cases.
3 JUDGE RIAD: When they stand up, what do they
4 tell you?
5 A. Nothing. They simply take him out and shoot
6 him dead. He had no right of --
7 JUDGE RIAD: -- Bosniaks?
8 A. Because he was a Bosniak or a Croat. I did
9 not spend a night at Luka.
10 JUDGE RIAD: [Question inaudible]
11 A. For no other reason. Only because he was a
12 Bosniak or a Croat.
13 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.
14 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you,
15 Judge Riad. Judge Rodrigues?
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,
17 Mr. President.
18 Witness I, good afternoon. I have basically
19 two questions I want to ask you.
20 You said that when you were in the mosque, he
21 said that only five per cent should remain. Did I
22 understand you correctly? These are my questions: Who
23 said that?
24 A. They were getting into the mosque non-stop.
25 Soldiers in uniform were getting into the mosque
1 non-stop. They had different insignia. Some belonged
2 to Seselj, others belonged to Arkan. There were quite
3 a few of these paramilitary formations.
4 As they would enter --
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But were
6 these paramilitary, or military Serbian formations, or
7 were they others?
8 A. Serb.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] About whom
10 did they say that? Five per cent of whom?
11 A. Five per cent of the total population of
12 Brcko, of Bosniaks. Only Bosniaks and Croats were
13 referred to.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Why did
15 they only want to leave five per cent?
16 A. That would be enough people for them to sweep
17 the streets and to work in night-shifts. So it is this
18 hard labour that these people would do.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] That
20 basically was my first question.
21 My second question is the following: You
22 also said, about the two police inspectors who were
23 involved in the Bosnian authority's interrogations, I
24 believe that you spoke about a list of people who were
25 supposed to be released or killed because they were not
1 desirable in life. I'm not sure that I understood that
2 correctly. Is that what you said?
3 A. Yes.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] My question
5 is whether you know who drew up the list.
6 A. I'll give you a piece of information. When I
7 was released from Luka and when I was in Es, a Serb
8 friend came to pick me up. He wanted me to turn his TV
9 set on by using a battery. His name was Zoran
11 At that time in Brcko, there was no
12 electricity in private buildings and apartments, and a
13 football game, a soccer game, was being played for the
14 cup. He came to pick me up to make it possible for him
15 to watch the game.
16 As I was sitting in his room, he showed me a
17 list of persons, the names of persons whom he was
18 supposed to liquidate, but he said to me that he phoned
19 these people at night, not exactly all of them, telling
20 them to hide, to go away. Everything was planned in
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] By whom?
23 Everything had been planned in advance. Who planned
24 all of that?
25 A. I don't know who the main person in charge of
1 this project was, but when you put all these things
2 together in a certain order, I think that the national
3 parties are to be blamed for it, that it's the fault of
4 the SDS.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The people
6 in the mosque who said only five per cent should be
7 left, the two police inspectors who had a list of
8 people who had to either be killed or released, did
9 those people have any relationship with Goran Jelisic?
10 A. As for these people in the mosque, I'm not
11 sure. As far as those in Luka are concerned, I imagine
12 it could be so, because Goran Jelisic didn't know these
13 people in Brcko. Somebody had to point them out to him
14 and to say who was who, to set these ID cards aside.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Something
16 else with which I will finish. You spoke about the
17 list -- well, everything that you say to me now did you
18 already say before either to the Prosecutor or to the
19 Bosnian authorities, or is this the first time that
20 you're speaking about that?
21 A. This is the first time that I'm speaking
22 about this at length.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Why are you
24 speaking about this for the first time today in more
25 detail? Why?
1 A. I'm only going to tell you one thing. When I
2 made my first statement to the Bosnia-Herzegovina
3 authorities, I gave it for three days. The man who was
4 questioning me said that my statement was more
5 important than that of any other inmate. However, he
6 did not have the patience to work with me any longer.
7 He was too tired, exhausted. Although I insisted on
8 being heard out, he said, "This will suffice."
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The
10 statements that you made to the Bosnia-Herzegovina
11 authorities, the investigators -- were the
12 investigators asking you questions and then did you
13 answer, or did you give a spontaneous statement that
14 the investigators noted down, or did things occur in a
15 different way?
16 A. All of this happened spontaneously. I must
17 tell you, though, that had I given a statement before I
18 was taken to Batkovic, as soon as I was released from
19 Luka, it would have been more precise and detailed.
20 However, we were taken to the camp in order to be
21 brainwashed. We ate food without any salt over there,
22 very small quantities at that, and that, in addition to
23 time, has affected our memory. So I could not remember
24 everything when I was exchanged from the Batkovic
25 camp. As a person thinks about what had happened, he
1 remembers these details as well.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I have no
3 further questions. Thank you very much, Witness I.
4 Thank you very much, Mr. President.
5 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you. I
6 have only one question to ask.
7 After all of these ordeals that you went
8 through at the Luka camp, in the end what is your
9 definitive impression that the accused played? Did he
10 give you the impression of directing the operations or
11 of simply being someone who carried things out? Could
12 you give us some specifics about that?
13 A. I could say that he was both. He carried out
14 orders but he also selected his victims through his own
15 free will. He could have not shot dead someone even if
16 he were told to do so, but he did quite a few things on
17 his own.
18 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes,
19 please go ahead.
20 A. For example -- for example, he didn't have to
21 beat people so badly with such big batons. If he was
22 supposed to kill a man, he could have killed him
23 immediately, but he would kill him with an object, a
24 baton or a stick or something, and then finally he
25 would cut his suffering short; he would shoot him
2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you. You
3 have finished. You have shown a great deal of patience
4 and the Tribunal expresses all its gratitude to you.
5 We will take some precautions before the next
6 witness is brought in. The blinds have to be drawn and
7 the Victims and Witnesses Section will take care of
9 We wish you a calm return. You have done
10 your duty. You've shown a great deal of courage in
11 doing so, and you did, and we are grateful to you for
12 that. Thank you.
13 THE WITNESS: Thank you too.
14 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher,
15 that's enough. I don't think there's anybody there.
16 [The witness withdrew]
17 [The witness entered court]
18 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Put on the
19 microphones, please. Do you hear me?
20 Mr. Usher, he can't answer. You've got to
21 turn the microphone on. How do you expect me to speak
22 to him? How do you expect him to answer me?
23 Do you hear me?
24 You should have let him remain seated.
25 All right. You have to read your solemn
1 declaration now. Please proceed.
2 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
3 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
5 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 Please be seated. We're going to call you Witness J
7 because you are a witness who is covered by protective
8 measures which the Tribunal has ordered. Thank you for
9 having come.
10 First you're going to be asked questions by
11 the Prosecutor. I'm sure he will explain how this is
12 going to take place. Most likely tomorrow you will be
13 asked questions by Defence counsel for the accused.
14 This is the trial initiated by the Prosecutor
15 against Goran Jelisic, who is present, to your left, in
16 this courtroom.
17 I see Mr. Nice is going to conduct the
19 Please proceed, Mr. Nice.
20 The identity of the witness. Please show him
21 the piece of paper to show that he can recognise his
22 name. But don't state your name. Thank you.
23 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice?
24 WITNESS: WITNESS J
25 Examined by Mr. Nice:
1 Q. Witness J, have you considered a summary of
2 your potential evidence now before you, and is it
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Before the conflict, did you work as an
6 economist for a company?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. On the 30th of April of 1992, were you with
9 your family in Klanac, a predominantly Muslim area, but
10 did you move on the 3rd of May to Kolobara, where you
11 were for a time in the basement of another house?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. On the 4th of May, were you arrested by Serb
14 soldiers, some in JNA uniforms and some in the blue
15 uniforms of the Civilian Protection Forces?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Were you separated, men from women, and the
18 men taken to the mosque, your estimate of the number of
19 men in the mosque being that there were how many there?
20 A. Up to 200 at the most.
21 Q. In the mosque, were you guarded by uniformed
22 men, some of whom you thought you could identify as to
23 their organisation?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And that organisation you thought was?
1 A. Yes. Yes.
2 Q. Which groups did you think they were a member
4 A. There were several groups. One belonged to
5 Arkan's soldiers, the others were the so-called White
6 Eagles, and other different soldiers.
7 Q. Did you --
8 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Excuse me.
9 When you give your answer, please try to face the
10 Judges, Witness J. Thank you.
11 MR. NICE:
12 Q. During your stay at the mosque, were some
13 people interrogated?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. In particular, what type of people or what --
16 yes. What people were interrogated while at the
18 A. Well, I mostly remember Papa having been
19 interrogated, that is actually Ahmet Hodzic, and a few
20 other younger men whom I knew but not by their names.
21 Q. Papa having, before the conflict, been
22 associated with the local SDA as its chairman; is that
24 A. He was the president of the local community
25 of Kolobara and a member of the SDA.
1 Q. Was there a young man there who tried to
3 A. Yes. That was Zikret Suljic, nicknamed
5 Q. What happened to him when he tried to escape?
6 A. In that general commotion, a soldier, who I
7 think belonged to Arkan's soldiers, judging by his
8 uniform, he ordered us to lie on the ground, and he
9 shot a round at him. He shot him in the back when he
10 had already reached the window of the mosque, using one
11 single round only.
12 Q. Were you moved from the mosque to another
13 location? If so, where?
14 A. Yes, I was moved, together with about 15
15 other citizens, to the military barracks.
16 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I haven't actually
17 asked this witness to look at this map beforehand, but
18 if he can help us with it, then the Court will be able
19 to have a map which will throw some further light on
20 the case you're dealing with.
21 Can the witness have this one for the ELMO?
22 There are larger, rather more convenient-sized maps for
23 the Court and for my learned friends opposite. If this
24 witness cannot deal with the map, then I will get
25 another witness who can.
1 THE REGISTRAR: This is Prosecution Exhibit
3 MR. NICE: Thank you.
4 Q. Are you able to read maps, Witness J?
5 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, there's only one
6 copy. I wonder whether it would be possible to have a
7 second copy between the two of us, please.
8 MR. NICE: Coming.
9 MR. GREAVES: I'm most grateful.
10 MR. NICE:
11 Q. Witness J, can you read maps?
12 A. Well, yes.
13 MR. NICE: If you would put the river at the
14 top, that's the way around. Thank you.
15 Q. Witness J, can you be given, please, the
16 pointer? When you're pointing things out to us, will
17 you stay in your seat so that your identity is not
18 revealed. Use the pointer. If you point something out
19 on the map, not on the screen, if you point it out on
20 the device to your right-hand side where the usher is
21 indicating, we'll see it on the screen.
22 Very quickly, because the Judges have yet to
23 see, I think, a map, unless I'm mistaken in my memory,
24 does this show the river running from northwest to the
25 east with what was the main bridge across it? Just
1 point to the bridge.
2 A. [Indicating]
3 Q. I don't know if you're able here to show us
4 where the mosque was. If yes, point to it; if not,
5 I'll get that dealt with in another way.
6 A. [Indicating]
7 MR. NICE: He indicates an area towards the
8 top left of the map.
9 Q. The barracks to which you had moved, where
10 are they to be found? It may be that we will need to
11 have the bottom part of the map in view. Maybe not.
12 A. [Indicating]
13 Q. You're indicating an area in the middle of
14 the town. There is, we see, on the map, right at the
15 bottom right-hand corner, another area that's marked as
16 army barracks, but those weren't the barracks to which
17 you were taken.
18 A. [No audible response]
19 Q. Very well. We will leave the map on the ELMO
20 because I will refer to it again in a minute.
21 You were taken to the barracks, and were
22 other men from areas of Brcko and elsewhere also
23 brought there?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. In particular, from what other area did men
2 A. Most were from Brcko Novo, Mujkici, Meraje.
3 Q. What are those areas? Are they areas of
4 particular ethnic composition or, to be precise, were
5 they areas of particular ethnic composition at the
7 A. Brcko Novo is a mixed neighbourhood, and
8 Meraje and Mujkici were predominantly Muslim.
9 Q. Is Mujkici in Brcko or is it in an area
10 outside Brcko?
11 A. Well, it's approximately about 1.000 metres
12 away from the mosque where we were. It's by the
14 Q. Very well. The stadium, I think we can see
15 on this map. At least I can see one stadium on it.
16 Can you see the stadium on this map, which is near to
18 A. [Indicating]
19 Q. Yes. It's in the top left-hand corner.
20 Thank you.
21 Following your move to the barracks and,
22 indeed, on the following day, did you volunteer to do
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Namely?
1 A. To clean up glass around the SUP building
2 from the effects of the detonation after the bridge had
4 Q. If we can just move the plan down a bit so
5 that we can see the bridge. It may not be possible
6 with a plan of this scale to identify precisely where
7 the centre of town was, but we can see where the bridge
8 that was blown up was. Can you point out roughly where
9 it was that you went in order to clear up?
10 A. [Indicating]
11 Q. Thank you very much.
12 MR. NICE: Next exhibit, please.
13 THE REGISTRAR: This is Prosecution Exhibit
15 MR. NICE: Thank you very much.
16 Q. Does this aerial view show that part of the
17 town to which you went when you went as a volunteer to
18 clear up?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Why did you volunteer to go?
21 A. Until then, I wasn't aware that a war had
22 started and what I'd got into, and I thought I might
23 thus reach the Sava and cross it and get away.
24 Q. Looking at this photograph, can you point out
25 the police station there, please?
1 A. Yes, I do. [Indicating]
2 Q. That building we see, and this is for
3 purposes of orientating ourselves for the next
4 photograph, has in the front of it three trees. Do you
5 see those three trees, the one on the left and then two
6 trees to the right-hand side?
7 A. [No audible response]
8 Q. If you look, please, at the next photograph.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 35.
10 MR. NICE:
11 Q. Does this photograph show on the right-hand
12 side the police station and then, substantially in the
13 middle of the photograph, those same two trees that we
14 were looking at from the aerial view?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Returning mentally to the aerial view, this
17 is looking from the top of the photograph down towards
18 the police station.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. When you went to the town to clear up, did
21 you go into that police station?
22 A. Not immediately, not my group. A group did
23 go in, about 10 of them, and about 17 of us stayed
25 Q. Subsequently, did you go into that police
1 station and, indeed, were you interrogated there?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. When you went in or while you were inside,
4 did you hear something and did things happen?
5 A. When I entered the last room on the first
6 floor, escorted by two men in camouflage uniforms, I
7 heard gunfire outside, so that those two soldiers left
8 that office where I was. They ran out and I also tried
9 to run out after them; that is, I left that room.
10 Q. What did you see on your way out or on
12 A. Midway down the passage, Senad Muranjkovic
13 called. Petar was lying there and he was holding his
14 leg, and I could see that he was wounded. In the
15 adjacent room, to the left-hand side as you enter,
16 there was Sead Karagic also lying down. Half of his
17 body was in the room and his legs were outside, and he
18 had a mason's hatchet in his back.
19 Q. Were those two of the men with whom you'd
20 been associated in coming to town?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Was there a third man, Hasan Jasarevic, who
23 had been in your group?
24 A. He must have entered and got scared and tried
25 to escape from the building, and they fired because he
1 was trying to escape.
2 Q. Did you see anything of his attempt to
4 A. No. At that time, I was in that room; that
5 is, in that last room.
6 Q. Would you just answer this "Yes" or "No":
7 Were you told what happened to him; "Yes" or "No"?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Who told you?
10 A. Guys who were clearing up outside, who were
11 not inside.
12 Q. What did they tell you had happened to him?
13 A. They said that he'd been caught in front of
14 Oslobodenje kiosk and that Goran Jelisic had taken him
15 down to Agro Banka, between SUP and Agro Banka, and
16 that there he shot him dead, with one bullet fired at
17 the back of his head.
18 Q. If we look at the photograph still on the
19 ELMO screen, does that show the kiosk and/or does that
20 show the bank? If so, please point them out.
21 A. The kiosk is here [Indicating], and you can't
22 see the bank for these, but that is where it should
24 Q. We can see the word "Banka" just on top of
25 it. Thank you.
1 After that incident at the police station,
2 what did you do? Did you go back to complete the
3 interrogation, did you go to carry on clearing up, or
5 A. I went on clearing up.
6 Q. What part of the area were you clearing and
7 how were you doing it?
8 A. Well, I was clearing up here [Indicating],
9 this street here, from the SUP entrance to the kiosk
10 and to the Oslobodenje cinema; that is, the former
12 MR. NICE: May the witness please have the
13 previous photograph on the screen?
14 Q. Can you, by use of the pointer, show us what
15 area of the street you were clearing of whatever you
16 were clearing it?
17 A. [Indicating]
18 Q. Yes. While you were doing that, did you see
19 something of a man from Sinteraj?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Where was he? What was he doing? What
22 happened to him?
23 A. He was here [indicating] at the moment when I
24 saw him. I was clearing up here, and he was moving
25 down the street, escorted by two policemen walking on
1 his sides and Goran following.
2 Q. At that time, did you know who either of
3 these policemen were?
4 A. No.
5 Q. And, indeed, at that time, although you've
6 used the name Goran, did you know who Goran was, or did
7 you get to know him at a later stage?
8 A. I met him later or, rather, he introduced
9 himself to us.
10 Q. Later?
11 A. Later, later, yes.
12 Q. Would you please look at the next
13 photograph? But leave that photograph on the ELMO for
14 the time being, if you would be so good.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 36.
16 MR. NICE:
17 Q. Before we put this photograph on the ELMO,
18 can you just stay with the existing aerial view, and
19 can you follow the road you were sweeping towards the
20 left? And then can you trace a lane that runs down on
21 the aerial view with your pointer and tell us what that
22 lane contains?
23 A. SUP, Oslobodenje cinema, the Posavina Hotel,
24 the crafts centre, the barbers.
25 Q. What's on the lane going down from that
1 junction that you've just crossed? What's on that
2 little lane there, if you can remember?
3 A. This one here [indicating], you mean?
4 Q. No, the other one. I'm going down on the
6 A. This here [indicating]?
7 Q. No. Down.
8 A. This one goes towards the Sava.
9 Q. No. Perhaps you can have a look at the next
10 photograph, please.
11 MR. NICE: Just lay that one on top of it,
12 please. Thank you very much.
13 Q. Do you recognise that street or lane?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Looking at the buildings on the right-hand
16 side of it, which are comparatively modern than the
17 buildings on the left, can you now, please, go back to
18 the previous photograph, if the usher would be good
19 enough to take the top one off, and tell us where you
20 think that lane is.
21 A. [Indicating]
22 Q. Thank you very much. So we now have a
23 photograph of that lane.
24 When you saw the man with the two police
25 officers and the man who was subsequently to introduce
1 himself as Goran, where were they going, and then what
3 A. They were moving towards this small street,
4 towards this lane next to the craft centre, and a shot
5 could be heard, and then Goran came back.
6 Q. Did the young man come back or not?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did you later see a vehicle driving to the
9 area where you'd seen the young man go?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What sort of vehicle?
12 A. It was a refrigerator truck of the Bimeks
14 Q. Did it go into that lane or just to the mouth
15 of the lane or somewhere else? Tell us.
16 A. I'm not really quite certain whether it was
17 he entered, but I know he went down there. I could not
18 really look how the vehicle moved, but I know he went
19 in the direction of that street.
20 Q. The man you'd seen following the two
21 policemen and the young man, how was it that he
22 introduced himself to you? Tell us about that.
23 A. Well, as I worked, he often -- as a matter of
24 fact, I didn't know it was Goran, but we come and go.
25 At some moment he lined us up here in front of the SUP
1 entrance, in three lines, and ordered us to look at
2 this flag and sing Serb songs, I think, march songs or
3 national songs.
4 Then he was sitting on a wooden chair, and
5 told us that he was Goran Jelisic, called "Serb Adolf,"
6 and that we should remember that name.
7 Q. How many of you was it that he had singing to
8 the Serb flag?
9 A. Fifteen, sixteen, or thereabouts. It
10 depended. Some people remained longer in the upper
11 part of the building, that is, cleaning the windows of
12 the showers and things like that, but we were some 15
13 or 16 perhaps.
14 Q. The first interrogation that you had had been
15 interrupted by what had happened outside or both inside
16 and outside the police station. Were you interrogated
18 A. I was not.
19 Q. By whom?
20 A. I said I was not interrogated.
21 Q. I'm sorry.
22 A. If I may say, at the beginning I was
23 interrogated by Goran but I did not know his name at
24 the time. It was in the beginning, and it was by Goran
25 and a policeman in a blue uniform. As we carried the
1 splinters, the glass, they intercepted us and told us
2 to put the glass down and said, "Let's talk about SDA,
3 young Muslims, ZNGs and the like." After that they
4 took us into the SUP building, but that was right at
5 the beginning.
6 Q. I see. Well, then I must ask you a little
7 bit more about that. When you were interrogated or
8 questioned by Goran, what did he say? What, if
9 anything, did he do?
10 A. During the interrogation, as I did not tell
11 them anything, he beat me with his baton on my
12 shoulders and on the head, and after a stronger blow I
13 put my hand up to shield myself, and he hit me here on
14 the knuckles and injured me. As the baton fell down --
15 flew down, of course he cursed my balija mother, how
16 dare I raise my hand against him, and I believe four
17 bullets fell out of his reserve magazine, I think,
18 which he had on his belt.
19 He ordered the soldiers to remove me away,
20 and promised me that I'd be the last one to be killed
21 in that group because I could carry that glass [sic].
22 Q. Could you carry -- what was it you were able
23 to carry?
24 A. The dead ones. The dead ones which I guess
25 he planned killing that day.
1 Q. And to be quite sure about, insofar as you
2 can help us, the location of things in order, this
3 questioning by Goran and his saying you were going to
4 be the last one to be killed occurred right at the
5 beginning, before there had been the commotion at the
6 police station?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And it was after that that you went and --
9 A. Before. It was before the commotion.
10 Q. Yes. So after that you went and swept the
11 streets, and after that you saw the young man from
12 Sinteraj go down the lane?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did you also see something that day of a man
15 known as Papa?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Before or after your interrogation?
18 A. After the interrogation.
19 Q. What were you doing at the time and what did
20 you see, please?
21 A. Well, I was sweeping the street right there
22 in front of the building, and I saw him come out from
23 the SUP building with a hand bandaged and visibly
24 limping on one foot. So he was moving slowly. Goran
25 followed after him, and there were two soldiers, one on
1 each side, escorting him. And --
2 Q. Just a moment.
3 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I was simply
4 looking at what time it is. I think the interpreters
5 are tired and, in any case, since you won't be able to
6 finish this afternoon, I think, Mr. Nice, that it might
7 be a point to stop.
8 MR. NICE: I have to deal with the list,
9 which always takes some time.
10 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I suggest that
11 we resume tomorrow at 2.00. Is that correct?
12 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Mr. President, at 2.00.
13 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] All right. The
14 hearing will resume tomorrow.
15 Witness J, we wish you a good evening, and
16 you will be properly taken care of.
17 We will resume tomorrow again, at 2.00.
18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
19 at 5.37 p.m., to be reconvened on
20 Wednesday, the 8th day of September,
21 1999 at 2.00 p.m.