1 Wednesday, 8th September, 1999
2 [Open session]
3 [The witness entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.03 p.m.
5 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Please be
6 seated. Registrar, have the accused brought in,
8 [The accused entered court]
9 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Good afternoon
10 to the interpreters. I want to be sure that they can
11 hear me. Good afternoon to Prosecution and Defence
12 counsel and to the accused. I know that my colleagues
13 are ready, and we can continue with the
14 direct-examination of Witness J.
15 WITNESS: WITNESS J [Resumed]
16 [Witness answers through interpreter]
17 Examined by Mr. Nice:
18 Q. Witness J, you were telling us yesterday
19 about the man known as Papa. You told us how you'd
20 seen him brought from the police station by Jelisic.
21 What was Jelisic doing when he brought him out of the
22 police station?
23 A. He was walking down the middle of the street
24 towards the river, towards the Sava. He had a baton in
25 his hand and was beating Papa on his shoulders, telling
1 him to hurry, to move quicker because this was the last
2 time he was seeing his town. They then turned the
3 corner by the craft centre and then a shot could be
5 Q. Can the witness please have the aerial
6 photograph again in front of him? By the "craft
7 centre," would you point out what you mean, please?
8 A. [Indicates]
9 Q. It's the same small road or lane that you'd
10 seen Jelisic go to on an earlier occasion?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. As he went down that lane, what did he do to
13 Papa, or as he reached that lane, what did he do to
15 A. I already said he was dealing him blows with
16 this baton on the back and telling him to go faster,
17 faster. Since the other one's leg had been injured by
18 blows, of course he was moving slowly. He said to him,
19 "Faster, faster."
20 Q. Then you said you heard a shot. I overlooked
21 the fact that you had already told us that.
22 Did you actually see the shooting or did you
23 just hear it?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did you see the shooting or did you just hear
2 A. I only heard the shot because they turned the
3 corner into that lane. I could not see it. I was here
4 at that moment, somewhere near that tree [indicates],
5 so I could only hear it.
6 Q. Let me turn now to the man Suad. What did
7 you see of what happened to him?
8 A. Well, we were then here [indicates], in front
9 of the Oslobodenje kiosk, clearing the splintered
10 glass, we were the only two there, and since he had his
11 back on him, Goran called us, said, "You in the blue
12 jacket, come here." We both were wearing blue jackets
13 and I thought he was calling me. So I turned, but then
14 he said, "No, not you," and then cursed my Balija
15 mother. He said, "You'll be the last one, but the
16 other one."
17 So he took him here towards the entrance into
18 the SUP and ordered him to sing Serb songs and look at
19 the flag. He said that he didn't know how to sing Serb
20 songs, and then he ordered a soldier to bring a rifle
21 with a reinforced butt, and hit him on the shoulders
22 and again ordered him to sing. This one began to cry,
23 and then Goran then said that he didn't like men who
24 cried, and ordered him to start, to start off.
25 He evidently sensed what was going to happen,
1 so he begged him to leave him alive because he had a
2 small child at home, but Goran did not heed to that.
3 He took him the same way, round the corner here, in the
4 lane, and we heard the shot.
5 Q. Did you have to move some bodies that day?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Indeed, Jelisic had told you that you were, I
8 think, the strong one, had he not? That's why you
9 would be the last one left to be killed?
10 A. He said it right at the beginning.
11 Q. Did he ever repeat that about your being the
12 last one to be killed and the reason why you were being
14 A. Well, only when he picked out Suad to take
15 him down there. He said again, "Not you. I told you
16 that you would be the last one." He repeated it then.
17 Q. Tell us about the bodies you had to move,
18 where from, where to, and insofar as you can, when you
19 moved them.
20 A. First I took away the body of Amir Novalic,
21 Fric. It was in the building, in the SUP building, in
22 front of the reception office. He was lying there,
23 face down. He had a T-shirt. He had been shot in the
24 back of his head and blood was still coming from his
25 mouth and nose.
1 I was told to take him in front of the Radnik
2 cinema. It is between the Posavina Hotel and the
3 library. It was there, and we carried the body through
4 this park here [indicates].
5 When I saw that Amir's nose and mouth were
6 bleeding, I asked the soldier to turn him so that the
7 blood wouldn't be dripping on the floor, and then he
8 said to me, "Well, let the Turk wash the streets with
9 his blood," a soldier. I don't know who he was.
10 Then --
11 Q. ... when that soldier said that to you?
12 A. To tell you honestly, I did not notice him.
13 He must have been around -- I mean, he may have been
14 there but I just did not see him. I didn't notice him.
15 Q. ... the second body you had to move?
16 A. The second body was Sead Karagic's body. It
17 was also in the hall, and we took it to the same place
18 where we'd taken Amir. We left it there, and we then
19 were told to go to the third --
20 Q. Before you moved to the third body, with whom
21 did you move that body? Who else helped you?
22 A. Senad Muranjkic, called Pidza, and Admir
23 Tolkic helped me.
24 Q. Did one of them find the job too much to deal
25 with and get substituted by someone else?
1 A. It was Amir, little Amir, who asked for that
2 when we took the third body, when he saw that Sead had
3 been castrated, and he was sick. It was very hot, so
4 there were very many flies around Sead and he was sick,
5 and he asked to change places with me, not to have to
6 look at what they'd done to Sead.
7 The third body was behind the SUP building
8 near the Dzindzics' house, somewhere here in this
9 corner here [indicates]. You have to go between these
10 two buildings [indicates], that is SUP and this
11 building, that is, the former Agro Bank, and that is
12 where he was lying face down. He was shot with a
13 bullet at the back of his head.
14 Q. And you took these bodies across the street
15 and across the small park. What did you do with them?
16 Did you load them onto a vehicle?
17 A. The third, Hasan's body, we immediately
18 loaded onto the refrigerator, that is, belonging to
19 Bimeks in Brcko, because there was a very visible
20 emblem of the Red Cross, a big one covering the whole
21 door. This vehicle took that particular street and we
22 went through the park, and then we loaded Amir
23 Novalic's and Karadzic's bodies here to this
24 refrigerator, and then I saw Sead.
25 Q. Thank you very much. Before I turn very
1 briefly to the circumstances of your escape, just a few
2 matters of detail on the evidence you've already told
3 us. The mosque in which you were held, was that near
4 to the hospital?
5 A. Across the street from the hospital.
6 Q. When you were first kept in the mosque, what
7 did the soldiers say they were going to do to you?
8 A. I remember only one instance. A soldier, I
9 believe he was one of the White Eagles, he had been
10 wounded. He arrived there and he had an arm wound. He
11 asked for a petrol canister and fired five or six
12 bullets into the floor of the mosque and told us to set
13 fire to it. He said, "I'll set you on fire. Do you
14 see what you've done to me? You've wounded me in the
15 arm, and I will do the same as what you did in Foca."
16 Others only interrogated us, where we lived,
17 what party we belonged to, whether we were members of a
18 party, and things like that.
19 Q. On that, was there one senior officer who
20 appeared to be in charge at the mosque or possibly of
21 the whole area around the mosque? If so, what was his
23 A. I don't know his name really, but he was very
24 handsome, dark-haired. He was a captain; he had three
1 Q. Did you --
2 A. He was a serious-minded man, and he had the
3 right to issue orders to all the soldiers around there,
4 at least that is how it seemed to me.
5 Q. You don't remember his name now. Do you
6 recall that you may have given a name to the
7 investigators when they took the statement from you?
8 A. I never knew that name, not even in the
9 mosque. Somebody may have heard his name and then put
10 that name instead of me, but I just don't know his
11 name. I only know that his superior was Mauzer for
12 that particular area, and I did not see Mauzer
14 Q. Thank you. When you saw Jelisic, did you see
15 him alone, or was he ever in the company either of men,
16 women, or girls? What about that?
17 A. The first time I saw him, he was in the
18 company of somebody his age, 23, 24, something like
19 that, a fair-haired guy, more or less the same height,
20 but then he disappeared. The next time, he was in the
21 company of girls, quite young, whom I didn't know.
22 Q. Were there any of the girls whose names you
23 did know?
24 A. Monika was the only one I knew (redacted)
4 Q. Did you see anything of an injury on Jelisic?
5 A. Well, he personally -- not to me only, to
6 several other people, he showed me an injury here. He
7 said, "Look what --" I don't know somebody did this,
8 and he had a cut along the forearm. Whether on the
9 left or the right one, I really don't remember. It
10 wasn't a deep wound but some blood was oozing, and then
11 he had his arm bandaged.
12 Q. Dealing with your escape, was there a man
13 called Slobodan Mitric who you saw on the street and
14 whom you were able to speak to?
15 A. Well, when Goran took Suad Hadzic away, I was
16 left alone here in the street somewhere. Here
17 [indicating], I think I was here in front of the kiosk,
18 perhaps just slightly nearer than that.
19 I was so out of my wits that I never noticed
20 Slobodan Mitric's car pass by me and stop here by the
21 Posavina Hotel. He was talking to a soldier in a
22 camouflage uniform who was in front of the casino. It
23 was where the casino was. So they talked about
24 something, and I noticed his car. I knew he had a Lada
25 or a PZ, I don't know, but (redacted)
1 (redacted). And I asked Goran
2 Vidovic, who was --
3 Q. I'm going to cut you short because the detail
4 of this may not trouble the Chamber, and it's all in
5 your statement.
6 Were you able to contact Slobodan Mitric?
7 Was he able to have you given special treatment, and
8 eventually you were able to move from one camp to
9 another and eventually you were exchanged in September?
10 A. Yes, Slobodan Mitric came to me, came out of
11 his car, asked me what I was doing there, and he helped
12 me. He helped me. He got a pass for me. I went to
13 the SUP, and Goran went and he took me to the
15 Q. Of all the men who had gone on the
16 street-cleaning exercise that day, how many went back
17 to the barracks?
18 A. That night, I was the only one who went back
19 and entered the barracks alone, and there were my
20 relatives and friends, and even Petar's brother, asking
21 me about the others. So evidently, nobody else had
22 come before me.
23 Q. I'm going to stop you there. You can give
24 the detail of all that to the Defence counsel, if they
25 wish it, or to the Court.
1 MR. NICE: I'm now going to turn to the
2 lists, if I may. Please may he have those lists. May
3 we go into private session for the reasons which the
4 Court is familiar. The public gallery is quite full, I
5 see, and they may need the position explained to them.
6 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes. I'm going
7 to explain this to the public gallery because these are
8 theoretically always open sessions.
9 We are going to move into a private session
10 because the witness is an individual who is being
11 protected. As you may have noticed, his face does not
12 appear on the screen. The list of names that's going
13 to be mentioned now by the Prosecutor to the witness,
14 as regards certain points, might allow the witness's
15 identity to be known because he comes from a small
16 village and, therefore, showing his face might put into
17 question the protective measures that have been given
18 to him. For the time being, a list is going to be read
19 and it will be read in a private session.
20 Please proceed, Mr. Prosecutor. We're moving
21 into private session now.
22 Are we ready? Yes, we are.
23 [Private session]
13 pages 1144-1150 redacted – private session
10 [Open session]
11 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We are once
12 again in a public session, and we can move to the
13 Defence for the cross-examination.
14 Mr. Greaves -- let's see. How long did the
15 direct-examination last, Mr. Registrar?
16 THE REGISTRAR: One hour and five minutes.
17 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Very well. Is
18 that about how long you're going to need for your
19 cross-examination, Mr. Greaves?
20 MR. GREAVES: I would anticipate so.
21 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you. We
22 will apply that time slot with flexibility, which is
23 what the Judges do. All right. Please proceed.
24 Cross-examined by Mr. Greaves:
25 Q. Mr. J, can I ask you please to help us about
1 this: The Prosecution has provided us with two
2 statements that you have made about these matters, one
3 of which you made to the authorities in
4 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the date has been -- is unclear
5 when it was that you made it. Can you help us, please,
6 as to which year in which you made it? The only dates
7 that we've got appear to be the 4th of October.
8 Did you make it shortly after you had been
9 released -- I'm sorry, exchanged?
10 A. I should say that I did not give anything by
11 way of a statement to the authorities of
12 Bosnia-Herzegovina. They reconstructed the story on
13 the basis of the outline they made, without my
15 A neighbour of mine came to see me
16 afterwards. He was chief of a service that was in
17 charge of some kind of security or something in that
18 area, and he came to see me as a neighbour. He was a
19 neighbour. We grew up together. He only asked me what
20 had happened, to describe had happened to him [sic].
21 He was not alone. There were two men with
22 him, and I saw that there was a young man there taking
23 notes, but afterwards they turned that into a statement
24 and they let me read it.
25 After having read this statement, which
1 actually was not a statement, I saw that there were
2 many inaccurate words that I -- and even names that I
3 did not even mention.
4 When I suggested that this was inaccurate and
5 that it should be done differently, they said, "Well,
6 never mind. This is just an internal matter of our
7 own," and I personally never thought that there would
8 be some kind of a trial or something, so I just let it
9 be. They gave it to me and then I signed it.
10 I said immediately that I did not agree with
11 that statement at all because there are a lot of
12 inaccuracies in there. Also there are some names in
13 there and various expressions like "Serbo-Chetnik." I
14 never used expressions like that. I don't insult
15 people. But they put in certain words that I never
16 said and -- I don't know. They invented some events on
17 the basis my memories.
18 Q. That's very helpful. I'll come back to that
19 in a moment if I may, please, Mr. J, but can you tell
20 us approximately when this happened in relation to when
21 you were exchanged?
22 A. Well, it happened very soon after I was
23 exchanged. Possibly it was in October, because I was
24 exchanged on the 8th of September. I was in Tuzla for
25 some time because my wife and my parents were there,
1 and I brought them closer. Then they heard that I was
2 in this territory and then they came to see me. That's
3 when I just told my story. I did not make a
4 statement. On the basis of this story of mine, they
5 wrote this statement with which I disagree in many
7 Q. So let me just clarify this. You were
8 visited on two occasions by some people. Do you know
9 whom they represented? Did they represent an official
10 body of any kind?
11 A. Well, a security service that had just been
12 set up, because I wasn't really involved in who was
13 doing what at the time, because I was very nervous at
14 the time and I was ill. I had headaches frequently at
15 the time, probably because of the draft in Batkovici.
16 Q. This man approached you and asked you to tell
17 him what had happen. Did he make notes of what you
18 told him?
19 A. He came to my home, this neighbour of mine
20 did, he's a childhood friend, together with two young
21 men whom I did not know. One of those two young men
22 was taking notes. He had some kind of an outline
23 there. Then they probably reconstructed this story
24 which they call a statement.
25 Q. On the second occasion you actually read the
1 statement that had been prepared, and although it
2 contained errors, you signed it after their explanation
3 was given to you?
4 A. There was a war going on. There was shooting
5 all over the place. When I was passing there, there
6 was shooting at the front line and they called out to
7 me. They knocked at the window of their official
8 premises and they asked me to come in.
9 When I said that this was not exactly the way
10 it had happened -- it's not that all of it is untrue,
11 there are quite a few things that are true, but then
12 there are some expressions I never use. They said,
13 "Well, never mind. We just need this for our
14 archives, just so that we'd know what had happened." I
15 signed this very quickly in order to get home as soon
16 as possible. After all, I never saw that statement
18 Q. Did you make it absolutely clear to the
19 people who came to you and asked you to sign it that it
20 contained things which were either inaccurate or
21 untrue? Did you make that absolutely plain to them?
22 A. I said it loud and clear and they accepted
23 that there probably were some inaccuracies, but then
24 there wasn't enough paper, and there was a war going
25 on, and it can't be retyped. Again, there weren't any
1 typewriters. After all, we had fled from Brcko to that
2 territory. In that way they refused to retype this
3 again and to change anything in this statement.
4 That is what the times were like. I didn't
5 really think about it, that anybody would ever use it
6 for such purposes.
7 Q. All right. Mr. J, I'd like just now to ask
8 some quick questions about you personally.
9 In 1995, it's right, isn't it, that you were
10 in the service of the Bosnia-Herzegovina army? Do you
11 still remain in that occupation?
12 A. I was in the army until 1995, until April
13 1995. Since then I haven't. I started doing my own
15 Q. I don't want to know what you're doing now or
16 anything about your present circumstances, Mr. J.
17 Please understand that.
18 Before the war did you personally take part
19 in political activity, whether as a member of a
20 political party or not?
21 A. I was not active. I was a member of the SDP,
22 the Social Democratic Party, that grew out of the
23 former communist party. Actively I did not take part
24 in any party because, before the war I was building a
25 house and I didn't feel like going into any kind of
2 Q. Do you remain a member of the SDP?
3 A. Yes, throughout the war until the present
4 day. Now I'm a bit more active as a social democrat.
5 Q. Thank you. I'd like to turn, please, to your
6 detention at the mosque. Is this correct: that when
7 you were detained and taken to the mosque, you were
8 taken with some 20 to 30 other people? Were you all of
9 them men?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And such women and children who had been
12 collected, were they -- I think this is the 4th of
13 May. Were women and children taken to somebody's
14 private residence opposite or near to the mosque?
15 A. Across the square from the other mosque, the
16 white mosque, Biljel Dzamija, which is 500 or 600
17 metres away from the place where they divided us up,
18 because in Brcko there were three mosques in town.
19 This other mosque Bijela Dzamija, the white mosque, was
20 across the street from Dr. Zelenjakovic's house, and
21 since he had a big basement, that's where we put the
22 women and children.
23 Q. Was that used temporarily as a safe place for
24 them to be?
25 A. I don't think it was a shelter, because they
1 were shooting in high-rises, and women and children
2 came to that house -- actually, the basement was the
3 safest place, and nobody should have kicked us out of
5 Q. Thank you. Could I move now please to your
6 arrival at the mosque? Is this right: that there were
7 already other people there when you arrived?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Again, were they all men?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Concerning the group with whom you were
12 brought and that group, were they men between the ages
13 of 18 and 60?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Subsequently, is it right that further
16 people, further men, again also between the ages of 18
17 and 60, were brought to the mosque?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did that end up with about 200 people being
20 detained at the mosque by the time that night came
22 A. Approximately about 200. I wasn't counting.
23 There were so many of us that we couldn't move our
24 hands at a given moment.
25 Q. I understand that and thank you for the
1 approximate figure, Mr. J.
2 The women and children who had been taken to
3 the private residence, were they subsequently taken to
4 the army barracks?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And subsequently were they also transferred
7 to some other location outside Brcko?
8 A. My family was taken to Bjeljina where they
9 spent a few hours, and then they were returned to
10 Brezovo Polje.
11 Q. I want to ask you please if you can help us
12 about this: As far as interrogations which were
13 conducted at the mosque, were those conducted by the
14 soldiers who were guarding you?
15 A. The man who was in charge of interrogations
16 was a good looking policeman. He was probably an
17 inspector in the Bjeljina SUP, and he was really in
18 charge of the interrogations.
19 From time to time we were questioned by
20 soldiers too, but that was informal. Officially we
21 were interrogated by a policeman, actually, an
22 inspector in a police uniform, from Bjeljina. That's
23 the way he introduced himself at least.
24 Q. Is it correct, Mr. J, that during the course
25 of the interrogations, the questions were obviously
1 personal details, but also as to individual people's
2 political -- party political affiliation?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. For example, such as yourself, a member of
5 the former Communist Party, later the Social Democratic
6 Party, were there people who were members of the
7 various political parties, the SDA, and the SDP, and so
9 A. Certainly.
10 Q. It's right, isn't it, that those who admitted
11 to being members of the SDA were singled out and were
12 taken and beaten?
13 A. They thought that they would be saved
14 because -- if they would say that he were in the SDA,
15 because they were in power in Brcko because there was a
16 coalition between the SDA and the SDS. They thought
17 that it would be an advantage to be a member of the
18 SDA. At least that's the way it should have been,
19 because they were in a coalition with the SDS, and that
20 is how they were fully in control of the government in
21 Brcko before the war broke out.
22 Q. I understand all that, but can you help us,
23 please? Regardless of what the background was, is it
24 right that those who acknowledged being members of the
25 SDA were singled out for beatings?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. I'd like you to help us explain something
3 which you told the Office of the Prosecutor -- I'm
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Please
8 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much, Your
10 Q. Mr. J, I want to ask you about a phrase which
11 you have used in the statement that you made to the
12 Office of the Prosecutor so that you can explain what
13 it means to us, please.
14 In connection with the interrogations of
15 prisoners, you say this:
16 "The suspicious prisoners were taken from
17 the mosque and interrogated in another location."
18 Can you help us, please, as to what you mean
19 by the "suspicious prisoners"? Do you mean by that,
20 people suspected of some crime or some activity?
21 A. We didn't have any time to commit a crime.
22 The crime was belonging to the SDA party.
23 Q. Thank you. I think, and I won't deal with
24 them again during the course of going through the list
25 of people that you were asked about, but you spoke at
1 one stage during that list about the Terzic cousins or
2 Terzic brothers. Were you aware of them being at the
4 A. Certainly. (redacted),
6 (redacted). They were together in the mosque, and I
7 saw them.
8 Q. Is this correct: that they were accused of
9 having weapons and ammunition, but they were returned
10 to the mosque after being interrogated?
11 A. The weapons they had were a two-barrelled
12 hunting gun and a hunting sniper, and naturally, they
13 had valid permits issued by the authorities for having
14 hunting weapons and also a certain amount of ammunition
15 that is used for these hunting weapons. Those are all
16 the weapons they had.
17 Q. In addition to that, did you, in fact, see
18 someone being beaten in the mosque who had been accused
19 of being a sniper?
20 A. A sniper? We were all suspected. Even I was
21 suspected of being a sniper because I went out in
22 slippers, and they said that all snipers had slippers,
23 and of course I wore slippers because I was taken out
24 of my home. One man was beaten up because they found a
25 radio transmitter on him, and this man was a radio
1 amateur and it was only natural that he would have a
2 transmitter at home, and he used it in order to
3 establish contact with other radio amateurs.
4 Q. Mr. J, can I just ask you this: Would this
5 be a fair description of the attitude of those who were
6 detaining you, interrogating you, and suspecting you of
7 being a sniper: that there was in the atmosphere at
8 the time a very high degree of paranoia and fear,
9 whether justified or not, about the activities of
10 people who had been detained?
11 A. Is that a question?
12 Q. I'll put it again to you, Mr. J. As far as
13 the people who were detaining you were concerned and
14 the ones who were responsible for interrogating you and
15 other prisoners, is this right: that amongst those
16 people, there was an atmosphere of hysteria and
17 paranoia about snipers and so forth?
18 A. As for this young man, who I said was from
19 Bijeljina, he was fair. You could see that he was
20 intelligent, and he carefully selected men who were a
21 bit more useful to him by way of giving information;
22 whereas the others were very haughty, and they wanted
23 to learn things from other people in other ways as to
24 who belonged to a party or whatever. But this man from
25 Bijeljina, he was not paranoid. He was a fair person
1 and he was a calm person.
2 Q. Does that apply to everybody or is it the
3 case that others were not as calm as this man?
4 A. I already said it. He was the only one who
5 was calm. Others brimmed with hatred as they came to
6 see us, as if we'd committed the worst of crimes, even
7 though we were the victims, and yet they posed as if
8 they were the victims and had suffered something, even
9 though we were their detainees whom they had dragged
10 out of our own homes.
11 Q. Can I just ask you briefly about your stay at
12 the army barracks? Did you know the name of the
13 commander at those barracks?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Can you tell us who it was, please?
16 A. Pavle Milinkovic.
17 Q. Next can I turn, please, to the time when you
18 were at the SUP building? Is this correct: that when
19 you were there, there was a short period outside the
20 building when you were interrogated by a police
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Is this also right: that the subject of that
24 interrogation was, as far as you were concerned, who
25 you had voted for and your party membership before the
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And were you also questioned about the SDA?
4 A. Well, I wasn't, only about ZNGs, Young
5 Muslims, what party I belonged to, those sort of
7 Q. ZNGs, I think that is not an organisation
8 we've heard about in this case. Can you just explain
9 to us who the ZNGs were?
10 A. Those were Croatian units. It was called
11 Narodna Garda, that is, National Guards, and they were
12 active in Croatia. Presumably, they thought they were
13 also active in our area, but I had no knowledge of
14 that, and I don't think they were. There may have been
15 some small groups but not as an organised army.
16 Q. When you were taken inside the building and
17 before, as it were, the commotion started, had you been
18 requestioned by some soldiers?
19 A. When I entered the SUP building, they took us
20 into the hallway. We were going in one line and we
21 were following one another, and I was the first one, it
22 just happened so, so I was sent to the last room as you
23 enter the hall. They put me between two tables and
24 told me to tell them again what I already said
25 outside. One of them even put his automatic rifle next
1 to me, presumably trying to tempt me to try to grab it
2 or something. But that interrogation was very short,
3 not more than a minute or two, because immediately
4 after that, we heard gunfire outside. At that time, I
5 didn't know where it was coming from and what it was
6 due to.
7 Q. So that it's clear, you were asked to go over
8 the subjects you'd already been asked about outside,
9 about which you've just told us?
10 A. Well, even outside, I said nothing to Goran.
11 I said again that I knew nothing, that I was a member
12 of the Social Democratic Party. About 500 or 600
13 metres away from the place where they interrogated me,
14 there was an SDP office, and there he could ascertain
15 that my card was there and that I signed my application
16 for membership that April, April 1992, for the SDP.
17 These archives are in existence.
18 Q. Can you just help us about one detail,
19 please, concerning the man Amir Novalic? I think he
20 had a nickname. Can you tell us what that was?
21 A. Fric. He was fair-haired. He had fair hair,
22 so this was an association with the Germans, and that's
23 why they called him Fric.
24 Q. Is it within your knowledge that he had been
25 not just a member of the SDA but had been active within
1 the SDA?
2 A. Well, I heard that he was a member, but I did
3 not really pay much attention to that because I was not
4 interested in the SDA, and I didn't want to know how
5 active somebody was in any other party. All I was
6 interested in was what people did in my party, in the
8 Q. Mr. J, I want to turn now, please, to your
9 brief detention at Luka facility. Is this right: that
10 that was on the 8th of May?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And you were transferred there from the
13 cinema hall at the barracks. Can you tell us at what
14 time that was?
15 A. I know it was around noon sometime.
16 Q. How long in all did you spend at the Luka
17 facility before you were released from there?
18 A. Well, it could have been an hour or so. I
19 didn't have a watch with me, nor did I think about time
20 much. I wasn't really interested in time, there was
21 general confusion and fear, but it could have been
22 around one hour.
23 Q. To describe what you saw at Luka, would this
24 phrase be right: "utter chaos"?
25 A. Yes, you could say that.
1 Q. People were being brought into the camp;
2 people were being released.
3 A. Yes, straightaway. They were brought in by
4 buses. There were some local Serb policemen who
5 recognised their friends and their neighbours or even
6 relatives, because there were quite a number of mixed
7 marriages in Brcko, so these people were issued passes
8 straightaway to go back home, and others were kept.
9 Q. Just help me about this, please, Mr. J: Were
10 you kept outside the buildings at the facility or were
11 you placed inside a building during your period at the
12 camp, at Luka?
13 A. I was outside.
14 Q. You understand what I mean by the phrase "the
15 hangars" as being the storage depots at Luka? Do you
16 understand that?
17 A. Yes, sure, but I was outside, in front.
18 Q. I understand that, Mr. J. I just want to
19 establish precisely where you were. There were,
20 opposite the hangars, a series of administration
21 offices. Were you outside the hangars between those
22 two sets of buildings and the roadway?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And were you able to see all the people who
25 were coming and going, passing and repassing that area?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You've described people being brought in in
3 buses. Was that the only way in which people were
4 being brought in?
5 A. I don't know that because I was there only a
6 short time, and Slobodan came immediately, saw me
7 there, and took me back to the barracks. How they
8 arrived later, I just don't know.
9 Q. I understand that. I was asking only about
10 the period you were there.
11 In terms of numbers, Mr. J, are you able to
12 estimate how many people you saw, as it were, at the
13 camp, detainees?
14 A. Well, there could have been over 200, 300, or
15 thereabouts. That would be the number of people I saw
17 Q. And of those people, could you give us an
18 estimate, please, of what percentage, what proportion
19 were released?
20 A. Some 10 per cent or thereabouts, but I
21 deduced that from things that happened later. Because
22 at that particular moment, of course, I could not see
23 anything because I was there only a short time.
24 Q. I want just to return, very briefly, to
25 the -- and I call it a statement for the sake of
1 convenience -- the account you gave and signed to the
2 Bosnia-Herzegovina Security Authority, Mr. J.
3 Would you accept that in that account, which
4 you signed, you did not make any mention of Goran
5 Jelisic making people sing Serbian songs?
6 A. Well, at the time, perhaps the one who was
7 taking those notes down did not think it interesting
8 and simply failed to note it down.
9 Q. I understand that. Nor did you make mention
10 there of the name "Adolf" or of the man Adolf saying
11 that you would be the last one to be killed or anything
12 like that?
13 A. Well, I can only give you the same answer as
14 before, that that fellow could not remember all that I
15 was telling him. I already told you that I wasn't
16 giving a statement. I just gave him some outlines, and
17 he was writing down my account. Of course, he couldn't
18 memorise all that I'd said.
19 Q. I'd like to turn, please, with you, Mr. J, in
20 a little more detail, to the lists of people which you
21 were asked to go through and see if you can assist us
22 with any more information about them.
23 MR. GREAVES: Perhaps we can go into private
24 session, as is the usual way. I'm sorry. There's one
25 matter before we go into private session. I do
1 apologise. I'm sorry, Your Honour. It's my fault. I
2 missed the note on the other page.
3 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes. Proceed.
4 MR. GREAVES:
5 Q. Mr. J, I just want to ask you one final thing
6 about Luka and your release. Were you issued with a
8 A. Somebody wrote it for me. It was Slobodan
9 who did it on my behalf. I never even saw that pass.
10 He just took it, put it in the glove compartment of his
11 car, and came to fetch me.
12 Q. Subsequently, were you given the pass out of
13 the glove compartment, or were you never given it?
14 A. No, I never saw it again.
15 Q. So although it was issued, it never
16 physically came into your possession?
17 A. I did not need it because I was not
18 released. I was again detained in the barracks, and it
19 only served for going from Luka to the barracks, and
20 then it was not valid any more.
21 Q. Just briefly, one last question about the
22 passes. Do you know who were issuing the passes at
24 A. I already said it. Mitric did all that had
25 to be done for me, for my sake. I heard that it was
1 Jelisic who was signing them, but I only heard that. I
2 never saw a single pass. Whether that was true or not,
3 I simply do not know because I just have no knowledge
4 of that.
5 Q. Right.
6 MR. GREAVES: May we go into private session,
8 [Private session]
13 pages 1173-1186 redacted – private session
11 --- Recess taken at 3.50 p.m.
12 --- On resuming at 4.25 p.m.
13 [Open session]
14 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We will now
15 resume the hearing. Please be seated.
16 Have the accused brought in, Mr. Registrar.
17 [The accused entered court]
18 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We can
19 continue. I hope that all of the interpreters are
20 ready and have rested a little bit. Fine. Very well.
21 Witness J, this is almost the end of this
22 testimony. If you agree, perhaps now the Prosecutor
23 who is going to conduct the re-examination, perhaps
24 Mr. Nice has a few things he'd like to add.
25 MR. NICE: Two very short topics. The first
1 one should probably be in private session. It's about
2 a name on the list.
3 THE REGISTRAR: This is open session.
4 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] No, we want to
5 be in private session.
6 [Private session]
5 [Open session]
6 MR. NICE:
7 Q. You've been asked about political parties.
8 You said you were a member of the Social Democratic
9 Party, and it was suggested that there was another
10 party called the SDA. Is it right that you were a
11 member of a party different from the SDA?
12 A. Completely different.
13 Q. Was your party of single ethnicity or of
14 multi-ethnicity in its composition?
15 A. Multi-ethnicity.
16 Q. What about the SDA? Was there any ethnic
17 limitation on that party?
18 A. It defined itself as a party of citizens, but
19 as far as I know, it is uni-national.
20 Q. Composed of what ethnic group?
21 A. Muslims, Bosniaks.
22 Q. So whenever someone was identified as of the
23 SDA, was the person being identified Muslim or Bosniak?
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. NICE: That concludes my re-examination.
1 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 Witness J, the Judges have a few questions to
3 ask you. Let me give the floor immediately to Judge
5 Judge Riad, please proceed.
6 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr.
8 Questioned by the Court:
9 JUDGE RIAD: Good afternoon, Witness J. I
10 just have a few clarifications to get from you, if you
12 I gathered, especially from your answer to
13 the Defence counsel, that members of the SDA were
14 particularly selected for beating, torture, and
15 eventually killing. Was this exclusive to them? Were
16 they the only people who would undergo this procedure,
17 this beating and torture, or was it a general
18 procedure, and towards whom?
19 A. In my opinion, it was a general procedure,
20 regardless of party affiliation. Naturally, members of
21 the SDA party were singled out, to a greater extent.
22 JUDGE RIAD: And why? Was it because they
23 were important, they had a social status in the
24 community, they were leaders?
25 A. It was considered, or they probably
1 considered that members of the SDA party influenced the
2 people in order to vote for secession from the former
3 Yugoslavia, for their independence.
4 JUDGE RIAD: Were there other people selected
5 for this beating, that were chosen first among the
6 community? Was there a selection?
7 A. Yes.
8 JUDGE RIAD: Who was it?
9 A. Well, most probably, local Serbs, persons who
10 lived in Brcko gave certain qualifications to the
11 persons who did that; that is to say, who were in
12 charge of beatings. They received information from the
13 local Serbs that such and such a person is, for
14 example, a prominent SDA member or held some important
15 post or something, and then that person would be the
16 first to be beaten up or killed.
17 JUDGE RIAD: Did this apply to religious
18 leaders too?
19 A. Yes.
20 JUDGE RIAD: In general, was there a
21 religious discrimination? Was it only focused on
22 Muslims, or Muslims and Croats?
23 A. There were far less Croats in Brcko anyway.
24 They were beaten up too, but there were less of them
25 because, in the structure of the population, they
1 figured less prominently; therefore, less Croats were
2 beaten up than the Muslims because the Muslims were the
3 majority population in the town of Brcko.
4 JUDGE RIAD: What about those who were not
5 Muslims or Croats?
6 A. If they were not on the side of the SDS or in
7 favour of their policy of ethnic cleansing, then they
8 were treated the same way.
9 JUDGE RIAD: Even if they were Serbs?
10 A. Yes.
11 JUDGE RIAD: Now, you mentioned that certain
12 people, you gave us names, were released from detention
13 and then killed at their home. What was the purpose of
14 this procedure, to release someone and then kill him?
15 Were they killed by other people, by the mob, or were
16 they killed by the same people who took them to gaol,
17 if you know?
18 A. I think they were different people.
19 JUDGE RIAD: Who they are, you don't know?
20 A. From what I know, it was a group around that
21 Kosta from Modrane, I don't know his last name, the one
22 who came to the mosque and to the barracks. That is
23 from what I know.
24 JUDGE RIAD: And that group was military,
25 paramilitary? What was this group?
1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is sorry,
2 but we couldn't hear the witness's answer.
3 JUDGE RIAD: Can you repeat the answer? What
4 was that group?
5 A. Those were groups or -- say, a man organises
6 his military group, picks out 100 extremists or so,
7 such as the White Eagles, for instance, the Wolves, and
8 the like of that. They were paramilitaries. They did
9 not belong to any regular army. There was no regular
10 army because the JNA was not a regular army anymore.
11 Yugoslavia had fallen apart at that time;
12 Bosnia-Herzegovina was independent. All the other
13 troops which appeared there were not regular troops.
14 JUDGE RIAD: Was there something which united
15 all these divisions? Was it complete chaos or was
16 there some kind of organisation between them, one
17 purpose, a coordination towards one purpose?
18 A. The groups came to Brcko to provoke chaos.
19 They did have a common leader somewhere above who was
20 not in Brcko, and in Brcko, they were sent there in
21 order to sow fear, to cause panic, to cause chaos, to
22 dislocate as many people as possible, to kill people.
23 In Brcko, I mean, at first glance, they all looked very
24 disorganised, but they all pursued the same goal, to
25 drive away as many Muslims from Brcko as possible.
1 JUDGE RIAD: Was the accused, Jelisic, more
2 or less among the leaders of these groups?
3 A. I saw Jelisic only on the 7th of May. After
4 that, I only heard about him, and he looked -- like
5 from the place where I was, he looked like somebody who
6 had an absolute power.
7 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Thank you very
9 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you,
10 Judge Riad. Judge Rodrigues.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,
12 Mr. President.
13 Witness J, I have a few question. My first
14 is the following: At that time, that is, during the
15 events in Luka, were the Muslims and Croats adversaries
16 or allies in the conflict.
17 A. Neither adversaries or allies. They were
18 citizens who had been driven away from their homes and,
19 therefore, had been struck by the same ill-fortune,
20 nothing else.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] My second
22 question is that we have heard about the fact that
23 people who were taken aside and beaten were beaten and
24 put aside because they were members of a political
25 party. We have also heard that the SDA had a
1 unilateral or one ethnic group that made it up.
2 Did they choose people who belonged to --
3 people who were members of the SDA -- when they chose
4 people who were in the SDA, did that mean that they
5 were choosing Muslims? Is it the same thing?
6 A. That was only a motive behind it more if you
7 were a SDA member, but other members -- other people of
8 Muslim ethnicity did not fare better either.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] My third
10 question: Belonging to a political party was a reason
11 that had been mentioned, and being a sniper was another
12 reason given. Having weapons, even with a permit, was
13 yet another reason mentioned.
14 When faced with all of these reasons, was
15 that a real confirmation of that reason or was it only
16 a virtual reason?
17 A. Well, those, yes, were propounded as the main
18 reasons, but the main objective was to terrorise
19 people, to sow terror, to make people feel unsafe,
20 insecure. Seven years after I was driven away from
21 Brcko, I still have no urge to go back to my native
22 town because of the bad memories. I still haven't gone
23 back to my native town.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Let's go
25 back to the mosque. You spoke about the separation of
1 men, women, and children. Were the women and children
2 in another location? Does that mean that being at
3 another location, rather, a location other than the
4 mosque, does that mean that they were safer, that the
5 women and children were safer, or was there yet another
7 A. I explained it once already. Those people
8 would have been safest at home in their cellars,
9 because the cellar was a separate place under the
10 ground and protected against shells and bullets, as
11 that particular locality was shelled. But when we were
12 driven out, there was street fighting still going on
13 where they were shooting at random just to sow fear
14 among people.
15 That was only a temporary station, because
16 they stayed for a very short time in that house, and it
17 was said, "You're not safe here. Let's go to the
18 barracks." Then after the barracks, an hour or two
19 later, "Let's go to Brezovo Polje because there are
20 women and children," and under the pretext of security
21 they simply took them out, away from the place where
22 they used to live.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You also
24 spoke about a captain who was more or less the person
25 who was responsible for the mosque. Did that person
1 say anything to you? Did he make a speech to you
2 explaining the reasons why you were there, or did he
3 not say anything?
4 A. I remember his speech, which sounded like a
5 school lesson. That's how it sounded to me. He was a
6 member of the JNA. He was a Captain, and he was in a
7 JNA uniform, and all the insignia were JNA insignia,
8 from the flag to the rank insignia.
9 He was very -- his attitude was very correct;
10 that is, did he not abuse us in any way. He did not
11 say anything bad. He said something along the lines of
12 this really shouldn't have happened, but we the Muslims
13 were responsible for Bosnia-Herzegovina separating from
14 Yugoslavia, that it should have stayed together.
15 Something like that. It was a kind of a lecture to
16 somehow make us -- to bring it home to us that we were
17 responsible for things that were going on.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Another
19 question: In respect of your description of Luka, you
20 said that in the confusion and chaos there were
21 individuals who were released and who were guarded. Do
22 you know whether there was a criterion for making that
23 separation? How were the people selected to be
24 released or to be kept?
25 Could you say whether there was any type of
1 criterion for choosing those who would be released and
2 those who would be kept?
3 A. Well, I suppose it was when Goran was not
4 somewhere around. So if a neighbour knew you well; or
5 was a friend; or if your best man was a Serb; for
6 instance, my best man was a Serb; then we simply single
7 him out and quickly issue him with a pass and do that.
8 If Goran was there, then presumably on the
9 basis of some references given by people who used to
10 work for the SUP before and who perhaps said, "Well,
11 listen, let this one go, he's quite all right," or
12 something like that, but very few people were
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Was there
15 any type of list which listed the names of the people
16 who were to be killed?
17 A. I heard about those lists, but I never saw
18 them, nor do I know anything more about that. I've
19 only heard that there were lists on the basis of which
20 one could know exactly who was to be killed and who was
21 not to be killed.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] At the
23 request of Mr. Greaves, you calculated that the
24 percentage of those people who had been released was
25 about ten per cent. Did you hear anything about a
1 percentage that was acceptable to indicate the number
2 of Muslims who were to be kept there, to remain?
3 A. While I was detained in the barracks, a
4 friend of mine, that is, a pre-war friend, a Serb, he
5 was a member of some troops, I don't know which, and we
6 talked while I was in the barracks, and he said that
7 they were working on it, working on finding some pass
8 or some permit for me to help me escape, that is, to
9 get across the border of Bosnia-Herzegovina and to go
10 abroad, because he said, "There's no remaining here."
11 The plan was to keep, whether in
12 Bosnia-Herzegovina or Brcko, to only have 20 or 30 per
13 cent of Muslims left here and the rest to deport, to
14 dislocate. That was something that he told me on that
15 occasion, but where did he get that knowledge from, I
16 don't know.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You said
18 that "he" planned it. Do you know who planned it?
19 A. Well, it was planned by the one who wanted to
20 bring about -- who wanted to bring about what happened
21 later, that is, the ethnic cleansing of
22 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the partition of
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,
25 Witness J. I have no further questions.
1 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I will not ask
2 you any questions. All of this has been long for you.
3 I see that the Prosecutor is standing, and I should
4 have asked you to sit down, Mr. Nice. Do you have a
5 question or --
6 All right. The Tribunal asks you very warmly
7 and expresses all of its gratitude to you for showing
8 the courage to come to the Hague, to live again all of
9 these tragic memories which marked your existence
10 during that period.
11 Please do not move. We're going to lower the
12 blinds, and then the Victims and Witnesses Section will
13 take charge of you. We wish you Godspeed back home.
14 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
15 [The witness withdrew]
16 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] If Mr. Nice or
17 Mr. Tochilovsky would please bring in the next
18 witness. One of you could take him out, then that
19 would have to avoid lowering and raising the blinds
21 MR. NICE: Before the next witness comes in,
22 there are two little short matters that I should raise,
23 and perhaps they could both be dealt with either in
24 closed session or private session. They relate to the
25 next witness whose summary you should, I think, already
2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I don't have
3 any summaries here. Judge Riad doesn't, nor does Judge
4 Rodrigues. Oh, yes, now we do. You're talking about
5 Witness K.
6 MR. NICE: Indeed. Witness K, seeks
7 protection of the same type that others have sought,
8 but the first topic I raise relates to her seeking to
9 have present in court a woman whose presence will be of
10 some support and comfort to her, given the particular
11 problems she has faced since the events of which she's
12 going to speak.
13 The account she gives, which is summarised,
14 is an account of incarceration at Luka, where she was
15 repeatedly raped and where she saw the most awful
16 things happening, and that has affected her since to
17 the extent that she has required support in the years
18 that have followed, has benefited from that support and
19 benefits from it still.
20 The group that supports her has sent a
21 representative with her -- oh, it's not private.
23 [Private session]
13 pages 1202-1211 redacted – private session
3 [Open session]
4 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Witness K,
5 thank you for having come. Please remain standing.
6 First, we are going to ask you to identify
7 your name on a piece of paper which is being given to
8 you, but please do not say your name. Simply check to
9 see that that, in fact, is your name. Don't state your
10 name, please. Is that your name? Don't say it; just
11 tell me whether it is. Is that your name?
12 THE WITNESS: Yes.
13 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] You are going
14 to take an oath now, which the usher is going to give
15 you. Please read this.
16 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
17 speak the truth, the whole ...
18 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Please be
19 seated. Please be seated. Please be seated.
20 Usher, give the witness a glass of water.
21 Try to get a hold of yourself, please, Madam. Take
22 your time.
23 Can we ask the individual who is working with
24 the woman to sit next to her? I think that would be
1 Could you please read the oath now? Please.
2 You'll manage. You'll manage.
3 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
4 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
6 WITNESS: WITNESS K
7 [Witness answers through interpreter]
8 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] There you are.
9 You were able to do it. Very good.
10 Whenever you need a break, at any point,
11 simply ask us and we will grant the amount of time you
12 need to rest. Please speak calmly. I know you can't
13 be serene; don't even try to be. You are before Judges
14 and you have nothing to fear. Try. If you don't feel
15 good, you have this woman next to you whom you asked to
16 have with you, and you will see that, working together,
17 we'll all get where we need to go.
18 First of all, you're going to be asked
19 questions by the Prosecutor, then by the Defence, and
20 then finally by the Judges. Probably we will not
21 finish this evening, and you will have to come back
22 tomorrow, but that will also give you some time to
24 Mr. Nice, with all the sensitivity that you
25 can show, I know that you are now going to ask the
1 questions that you have to ask.
2 Examined by Mr. Nice:
3 Q. Witness K, we call you Witness K in this
4 trial in order to preserve your anonymity. It seems a
5 bit strange but don't worry about that.
6 In fact, you speak pretty good English, but
7 we will have to find out as we go along whether it is
8 going to be better for you to speak in English or to
9 speak in your own language. Some of the Judges don't
10 speak English, so it's all a bit of a muddle here, and
11 we'll just see how we go.
12 To begin with, I'm going to ask you a few
13 questions in English which you can just deal with by
14 yes or no answers, and then we will see where we go
15 from there.
16 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Nice, all the Judges speak
18 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I understand that
19 that is the case, but what I was trying to say, rather
20 diffidently, was that sometimes where people from
21 different nationalities are bringing their different
22 English skills together, it is sometimes more difficult
23 to use English and easier to use translation. But I
24 only wish I could -- no, I won't go into that.
25 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you,
1 Judge Riad.
2 You see, Witness K, we're saying this in
3 order to try to help you to relax a little bit.
4 Thank you, Judge Riad, and thank you for the
5 kind words that you've said about my English.
6 MR. NICE:
7 Q. Witness K, I think there's been what's called
8 a summary of your evidence prepared, and I think you
9 had a chance to look at it last night; is that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. That summary, which we will get a copy of for
12 you in a minute, was that summary accurate?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. I don't know where it is at the moment, but
15 we'll put it before you in a minute. Now, you were
16 trained as a midwife, I think, for several years. How
17 long did it take to become a midwife?
18 A. Four years.
19 Q. Four years. After that, you worked in the
20 hospital in Brcko as a midwife and had done that for
21 several years. How many years had you been a midwife?
22 A. Since 1979.
23 Q. Here comes the summary. Just have a quick
24 look at this; you don't need to look at it in detail.
25 Is this the summary that you looked at yesterday and
1 that you found to be accurate?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Right. Thanks very much. Now, having been a
4 midwife for 12 years or thereabouts --
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. -- were you on duty, working at the hospital
7 on the day that the bridges were blown up?
8 A. Yes. I went at 7.00 morning to work that
9 day, the 1st of May, with my husband, to our duty.
10 Q. Yes. You started at 7.00 that morning, the
11 bridges were blown up --
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. -- and then did the next duty of nurses turn
14 up or were there a lot of absentees?
15 A. Many people were absent from work. They
16 didn't show up.
17 Q. Yes. Did you stay on duty? Because if you
18 hadn't stayed on duty, there would have been nobody to
19 look after the babies.
20 A. Yes, I did. I could not leave the new babies
21 there. They were fresh.
22 Q. Did you stay on duty all night?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Then was it the next day that all the
25 patients were moved down into the basement of the
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. That hospital, we can look at it on the map
4 if it's necessary, but we've heard of a hospital that
5 is immediately opposite the mosque. Is this hospital
6 immediately opposite a mosque?
7 A. Across from the mosque was the community
8 health centre, and then across there, yes.
9 Q. Right. Thank you. A little problem is that,
10 as you know, people have to record what we're all
11 saying, and one or two of them are having a tiny bit of
12 difficulty. If you can speak a bit louder, do;
13 otherwise, maybe we can move the microphones a bit
14 closer. See if you can speak up just a touch.
15 What was the date, so far as you can recall
16 it, of the patients all being moved down to the
18 A. I think the 2nd. It's very hard for me to
19 understand exactly the date, because I was -- I didn't
20 have enough sleep. I was tired.
21 Q. But you think it was the 2nd?
22 A. The 2nd. For that, yeah, but I think the
23 2nd, it was.
24 Q. It's not that important, so don't worry. I
25 think then or on the following day, the 3rd, explosions
1 seemed to be getting louder and closer, and you started
2 to receive wounded people in the hospital who were
3 suffering from firearms injuries; is that right? Just
4 yes or no will do.
5 A. Yes. Yes. Yes.
6 Q. And then you and the remaining medical staff
7 did as well as you could for the people who were coming
8 in and, indeed, for the women and the babies who were
9 already there. I think that's right, isn't it?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. The next thing that happened -- if you can
12 estimate the day, do so, but if you can't it doesn't
13 mater. Is it the next thing that happened is that you
14 became aware of Serb soldiers?
15 A. The patient was arrived which were wounded.
16 They will tell us, you know, what they saw to the
18 Q. Yes, but did you actually see Serb soldiers
19 in the hospital at one stage?
20 A. No. Until they come do occupy, the Serbs.
21 Q. What is the day that they occupied, the
22 Serbs, roughly?
23 A. 3rd or 4th.
24 Q. Did they completely occupy the hospital? We
25 don't need to deal with this in detail, but just tell
1 us, did they completely occupy the hospital?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did they have uniforms?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did they have painted faces, some of them?
6 A. Yes, all of them. All of them.
7 Q. Yes. Did you get the name of the soldier who
8 appeared to be in charge of all these soldiers?
9 A. Dusko Tadic, because he was working in the
10 hospital as a guardian. Yes.
11 Q. Yes. But what was the name of the Serb
12 soldier, the Serb boss soldier?
13 A. With him, he was -- the name was from the
14 Serbian name, with the accent, Bozo.
15 Q. But the name of the Serb -- what was the name
16 of the chief Serb soldier, if you can remember it?
17 A. Yes. When they arrived, more soldiers there
18 with the group.
19 Q. Who was in charge of that group of soldiers?
20 A. Mauzer.
21 Q. Mauzer. Thank you. Did there come a time
22 when everyone in the hospital, or perhaps most of you,
23 I don't know, were all gathered up and spoken to?
24 A. They would send a soldier all around the
25 hospital to let us to come.
1 Q. What were you told when you were all gathered
3 A. We will stay in the cafeteria, in that area,
4 and they will told us, you know, the one who is taking
5 that territory, taking the power, we have to obey them,
6 otherwise, we will be killed. So they will try to ask
7 questions of some of our doctors in the line.
8 Q. Well, they asked questions of the doctors.
9 Did they treat the doctors well or badly at that
11 A. Bad. Badly, badly.
12 Q. Did they actually beat them in the hospital
13 or not?
14 A. Yes. Yes.
15 Q. But taking the story forward, just to get
16 along a bit, were you, along with other people, taken
17 from the hospital to Luka, a place down on the river?
18 A. After they finished that lecture, they will
19 send us out on our -- on the work, and after while,
20 like evening-time, I don't know exactly what time, but
21 it was evening, because of the duty, they be giving the
22 therapy, some soldier, they will come and ask for my
23 name, and he will say in the hallway, (redacted)
25 Q. So he had your name and he was looking for
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. NICE: Can we now delete that, obviously,
4 from the record, please?
5 Q. My mistake to have allowed you to say that,
6 but don't mention your name. It's all right. It won't
7 go out. Don't worry. The staff here can take care of
8 that sort of problem. It's okay.
9 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 MR. NICE:
11 Q. Nothing to thank us for.
12 A. After that I follow him.
13 Q. Yes. Were you taken off to Luka?
14 A. They brought us in the basement, in the
15 hallway. (redacted)
17 (redacted). They told me to stay next to them in the
19 Q. Again, to take the story quickly, because we
20 can deal with it quite quickly, this bit, you were put
21 in a van and you were taken to Luka?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. As you drove through the town of Luka, did
24 you see the destruction that had already taken place?
25 A. Yes. It was terrible. It was terrible.
1 Q. Yes. Then when you got to Luka -- we know
2 about what Luka looks like because we've got lots of
3 photographs. So don't worry about that.
4 We know that there are hangars on one side
5 and little low buildings on the other, and we can show
6 you a diagram or your diagram of it if you like, but
7 when you first got there, did you go to the hangars or
8 to the buildings opposite?
9 A. They took us first in the office, and it was,
10 you know, walking around and -- in the yard between the
11 hangar it was, you know, police people walking around.
12 Q. Yes. What did they say was going to happen
13 to you?
14 A. They took us inside in the office, and
15 there's a procedure. Just, you know, basic -- just
16 they ask basic question. You know, no need to worry.
17 And even the policeman, he was very polite. He was
18 offer us drink and try to make comfort.
19 Q. But did you then see another man come into
20 the office, a man whose name you didn't know at the
21 time but you later learnt what his name was?
22 A. Actually, another person, Ranko is inside the
23 office and disturb, you know, even -- he was in the
24 police uniform.
25 Q. Yes. I think you mentioned a name. Was it
1 Ranko? It's not on the screen but it doesn't matter.
2 Did you say the name "Ranko"?
3 A. At that time I didn't know his name.
4 Q. But was he the man in the office or was he
5 the man who came into the office?
6 A. Who is come from outside.
7 Q. Yes.
8 A. Actually, he was run to his -- you know, it
9 was quick happening.
10 Q. When he came into the office -- again you can
11 deal with this bit very quickly, although, it may be
12 unpleasant -- what did he do to somebody who was
14 A. He throw outside another policeman, and the
15 policeman tried to make him calm down, and then we will
16 stay only with that person who looks like crazy.
17 Q. What did he do?
18 A. First he was shot in the air with his gun,
19 and then he started cursing the others and yelling very
20 loud, and he just curse us as Muslim. He wants to all
21 kill us.
22 Q. Then did he do something to one of the men
23 there, and if so, to which man?
24 A. Yes. He approached the first, (redacted),
25 threw him on the ground and he hit him with a gun, you
1 know, bottom part, so bad, and with the boots walk over
2 to the head from -- you know, all body --
3 Q. How was (redacted) --
4 A. -- and hitting with the gun. After that, he
5 took (redacted), another man --
6 Q. This is the house painter -- not the house
7 painter, the -- well, the house painter that you'd come
8 with from the hospital, I think.
9 A. Yes. Yes.
10 Q. What did he do to him?
11 A. He will do the same, throw him the ground,
12 and the same tactic, you know, beat him with a gun,
13 with the boots, kicking and walking.
14 Q. Is that the other house painter that had come
15 with you from the hospital or was that someone else?
16 A. Actually, that's first (redacted) and then first
17 the house painter, (redacted) [phoen].
18 Q. Then what did he make those men do to each
20 A. (redacted). He will order to them get up on the
21 feet. Then he was so tired and frustrated from the
22 beating, look exhaust, and then he will order to us
23 beat each other like boxing, you know.
24 Q. Was the doctor, and the house painters, and
25 yourself, were you compelled to try and do what you
1 wanted to do, to beat each other?
2 A. Yes, only I didn't hit. You know, probably
3 I -- they feel I'm weak.
4 Q. Now, when that was over, were you taken
5 outside or told to go outside?
6 A. Yes. With the gun he took us so fast,
7 pushing us to get out.
8 MR. NICE: May I ask the witness to have a
9 look at this exhibit? It's amended to the extent of
10 the name being taken out and replaced by "Witness K" at
11 the top, if I can hand it in. There is an original
12 which can be provided, under seal, which has the name
13 on it. It's a matter for the Court whether the
14 original need go in.
15 While that's being circulated --
16 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice. I
17 don't think that you're going to finish with your
18 direct-examination this evening.
19 If you prefer that I speak directly to
20 Witness K. Perhaps it would be better to stop at ten
21 to six, in another ten minutes, which would allow you
22 to rest at your hotel, and perhaps that would be
24 A. Yeah. Okay.
25 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Very well. All
1 right. We're going to go for about another ten minutes
2 and then we're going to stop and resume tomorrow.
3 THE REGISTRAR: This is Prosecution
4 Exhibit 39.
5 MR. NICE: While it's being circulated, I
6 imagine that the Chamber and my friend will have no
7 difficulty following the sketch because of its
8 familiarity with the hangars which are shown on the
9 right and the office buildings which are shown more
10 divided up into smaller units on the left.
11 Could it be placed on the ELMO? Could the
12 jug of water be moved? I suspect it might be in the
13 way, and if the pointer could be extended. Right.
14 Q. Now, this is a plan. You drew this yourself,
15 I think, didn't you, at one stage?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. As I just suggested to the Judges, the hangar
18 is on the right as we can see it, and the offices are
19 on the left, aren't they?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Well, you've been in the offices, and you
22 were then taken or ordered out. Where did you go when
23 you were taken out?
24 A. They took me out. It was dark. It was a lot
25 soldier and policemen, and for moment I -- I lost,
1 disappear my vision from another my co-worker, someone,
2 other person pushing me toward the wall.
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. They guide me toward the wall, actually, next
5 to the -- yes. They told me to turn toward the wall.
6 Q. Now, when you did that, did you notice some
7 detainees, some prisoners near you?
8 A. When I walking I saw the line, a line of the
9 people, maybe around -- it was dark. I saw body, like,
10 you know, between -- not too dark and I saw the bodies,
11 and it was maybe around 50 people all the line, and
12 then --
13 Q. Were they all in one line or was there more
14 than one row of people?
15 A. One line.
16 Q. Yes.
17 A. And I was first, next to door.
18 Q. These men, what were they doing? Where were
19 their hands?
20 A. On top, on the wall. You know, hold up to
21 the wall. Leaning against the wall.
22 Q. Did you hear anything said at about this
24 A. Yeah. Behind our back I will heard you know,
25 the people, like running, putting -- standing in the
1 back behind the line, you know, and sound of machine,
2 you know, when they -- and a lot steps, you know,
3 walking behind our back. So --
4 Q. Did you hear anything said or anything
5 shouted, anything like that?
6 A. Yes. When they say to, you know, like get
7 prepare or get ready, and I turned my head toward to
8 them accidentally, and some of them, they told me, you
9 know, "Get out." But I didn't know they talked to me
10 until they come close to me, actually one soldier, and
11 said, "Go with me." During the walking they will --
12 they will walk. The soldier was in the line, you know,
13 my shoulder, you know, in the line, yes. He will guide
14 me to the same office where I was.
15 Q. Did you hear something else? You heard --
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You'd heard the shout --
18 A. When I was walking, during the walking I
19 shout -- I heard, you know -- you know, like ready,
20 shooting, you know, a lot guns.
21 Q. You heard the word "ready." Did you hear any
22 other instruction?
23 A. Like shooting.
24 Q. Then the sound you heard after that was the
25 sound of what, guns?
1 A. Sound of the gun, a lot sound of the gun, and
2 sounds like, you know, like the body falling down.
3 Q. You came back across to the offices. Did you
4 go into the offices?
5 A. Yes. I will walk. I could not turn because
6 the guard was with me.
7 Q. Yes.
8 A. And he will guide me in the same room where I
9 was previous, and he will brought me the room, and I
10 didn't even sit. I will hear the voice again previous,
11 crazy, crazy guy.
12 Q. That's the man who had been in the office and
13 made you all assault each other; is that right? Tried
14 to make you assault each other.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What did he do to you then?
17 A. He put me in the chair. Put me in the
18 chair. Excuse me.
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. He will sit in the front of me.
21 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Perhaps we
22 could stop at this point, Mr. Nice.
23 MR. NICE: Yes.
24 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] According to
25 the summary, these are very difficult things to say.
1 Since we've only taken one break this afternoon and
2 everybody needs to rest --
3 Witness K, we're going to interrupt a little
4 earlier than we expected to. With the assistance of
5 the person with you, you're going to go to the Victims
6 and Witnesses Section and try to rest. I'm sure this
7 has been -- tomorrow morning will be difficult, so try
8 to rest this evening. You were very courageous. All
10 A. Thank you.
11 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Please do not
12 move. The Judges are going to withdraw, and we will
13 see one another again tomorrow at 10.00.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, 10.00.
15 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Court stands
17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
18 at 5.50 p.m. to be reconvened on
19 Thursday, the 9th day of September, 1999
20 at 10.00 a.m.