1. 1 Friday, 10th September, 1999

    2 [Open session]

    3 [The witness entered court]

    4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

    5 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Please be

    6 seated. Do the interpreters hear me? Good morning. I

    7 don't see them but I say "good morning" anyway.

    8 Good morning to Prosecution and to Defence

    9 counsel.

    10 Good morning to the witness. Were you able

    11 to rest here in The Hague?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Do you feel

    14 relaxed? Very well. It isn't going to take much

    15 longer, all the more so because Mr. Greaves really

    16 promised that he would spend the entire night sifting

    17 through his questions and he only has a few left to

    18 ask.

    19 MR. NICE: Before Mr. Greaves addresses you,

    20 may I absent myself from the courtroom for about half

    21 an hour? I'll explain the position straightaway.

    22 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] You're free.

    23 No, you're free. You know that this is an institution

    24 of liberty. No problems. But if you want to explain

    25 to us, of course, you can, and we would be delighted to



  2. 1 hear what you have to say.

    2 MR. NICE: Before the recall of the next

    3 witness for their cross-examination, there are some

    4 representations that I would like to make, and in case

    5 the Court changes its decision about her, I have

    6 another witness available to give evidence today and it

    7 is he who I must go and talk to briefly. It is for

    8 that reason that I shan't be here, but as soon as the

    9 evidence of this witness concludes, I'd like an

    10 opportunity to address you briefly.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Very well.

    12 Yes, of course. All right. We'll give the floor back

    13 to Mr. Greaves now.

    14 WITNESS: WITNESS L (RESUMED)

    15 Cross-examined by Mr. Greaves:

    16 [Witness answers through interpreter]

    17 Q. Mr. L, we were discussing last night, as we

    18 closed, two particular individuals: Petar Kaurinovic

    19 and Dragisa Tesic. They were in the police service,

    20 the police force; is that right?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. So that we can be clear about that, you

    23 believe them to hold the rank of inspector?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Can you help us about this from the former



  3. 1 Yugoslavia, and Bosnia-Herzegovina, as it became? In

    2 the police force, is that a rank which is a superior

    3 rank?

    4 A. I'm not very good at ranks, but they were

    5 inspectors.

    6 Q. In this sense, an ordinary police officer,

    7 the police officers who go around making inquiries from

    8 door-to-door and so on, those would be junior to an

    9 inspector?

    10 A. No. No. They're civilian simply.

    11 Q. They're civilians but they're in the police

    12 force. I'm sorry, I don't understand.

    13 A. They're not policemen who wear uniforms.

    14 Inspectors wearing civilian clothes.

    15 Q. In my country, police officers, some are in

    16 uniform and some who are in the criminal investigation

    17 department, they wear civilian clothes, but,

    18 nevertheless, they're police officers as part of the

    19 ordinary structure of the police. Is that the same in

    20 the former Yugoslavia?

    21 A. There were such as well, but they were from

    22 the crime prevention service.

    23 Q. I want just to clarify one matter concerning

    24 releases. You told the Office of the Prosecutor that

    25 during the course of the evening there were a series of



  4. 1 selections of people who had been put on a list and

    2 that releases took place about four times, totalling

    3 about 120 people. Would that be correct?

    4 A. I said from 80 to 100 people; on Friday, the

    5 8th of May, in the afternoon, that that many were

    6 released.

    7 Q. In due course, on the evening of the 8th of

    8 May, you were aware of a number of interrogations

    9 having taken place in this sense: that prisoners were

    10 asked to write down the name of Muslim extremists. Is

    11 that right? Do you recall that?

    12 A. Yes. That's right.

    13 Q. The person carrying out those interrogations

    14 indicated to those being interrogated, "If we are

    15 satisfied with the list, you will live; if not, you

    16 will die." Do you recall that?

    17 A. Right. I remember.

    18 Q. As far as -- and I'll put this to you

    19 shortly, Mr. L, as far as anything which you claim that

    20 Goran Jelisic said of a nature that indicated an

    21 anti-Muslim sentiment, I suggest to you that none of

    22 those things were said.

    23 A. What I said in my statement was that Goran

    24 did not say a word about this.

    25 Q. During the time when you were detained at



  5. 1 Luka, did you become aware of an individual called

    2 Kosta Simonovic?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. And you knew him from before the war; is that

    5 right?

    6 A. Yes. I knew him before the war, yes.

    7 Q. Did you see him at Luka camp on the 8th or

    8 9th of May?

    9 A. Not then, but when people from the nearby

    10 village of Brezovo Polje were collected and brought in,

    11 then he was there again as some kind of a boss of the

    12 camp.

    13 Q. Can you confirm this: The second time that

    14 you were at Luka, which I think was June and July 1992,

    15 at no time did you see Goran Jelisic at the camp in

    16 that period?

    17 A. I did not see him.

    18 MR. GREAVES: I'd like to turn now, please,

    19 and perhaps Your Honour would be kind enough to allow

    20 us to go into private session so that I may deal with

    21 the list of people that this man has been taken

    22 through.

    23 [Private session]

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)



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  1. 1 (redacted) 2 (redacted)

    3 (redacted)

    4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 [Open session]

    12 MR. TOCHILOVSKY:

    13 Q. Mr. L, with regard to how your answer

    14 appeared in the transcript, I would like to repeat the

    15 question which was asked by the Defence.

    16 In the canteen, how far away were you from

    17 the person who introduced himself as "Serb Adolf"? How

    18 far away were you from this person at that time?

    19 A. Four or five metres.

    20 Q. Four metres or five metres, is that correct,

    21 as you say?

    22 A. Yes. Between four and five metres.

    23 Q. Because in the transcript it appeared as

    24 "45." So it is from four metres to five metres; is

    25 that right?



  2. 1 A. Yes, between four and five metres.

    2 Q. When you answered the Defence question, you

    3 said that there were fluorescent lights in the canteen

    4 which gave a yellowish glow. Is that fluorescent

    5 lights and yellowish glow that you saw "Adolf's" hair

    6 as light brown to blonde and eyes as blue?

    7 A. In my statement I did not say then, but when

    8 I was transferred from the Laser to Luka, when I spent

    9 the whole night in that office, when Goran Jelisic was

    10 sitting in an armchair next to me, it was then that I

    11 gave his description, the description of his face.

    12 Q. When you were with him in the office, did he

    13 show you his arm or anything on his arm?

    14 A. He did. He had his right hand bandaged and

    15 said that at the SUP in Brcko, Amir -- nicknamed

    16 Fric -- Novalic, had attacked him with an axe, and that

    17 he killed him on that occasion.

    18 Q. Would you be able to recognise this person if

    19 he were here in the courtroom?

    20 A. Perhaps I would, but a long period of time

    21 has passed by.

    22 Q. When you mentioned in your testimony killing

    23 two brothers from Zvornik and that Goran was involved

    24 in that killing, did he -- did Goran call volunteers

    25 from the hangar to take the bodies?



  3. 1 A. He did. Whenever somebody was killed, they

    2 would call for two volunteers to move away the dead

    3 bodies and throw them away.

    4 Q. Do you know how often prisoners had to move

    5 bodies? How often? Were you told by anyone or do you

    6 know yourself?

    7 A. Detainees told me that there were days when

    8 they had to dispose of 20 or 30 of them. There were

    9 also days when there were more of them. When I was

    10 there, six people were killed.

    11 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: I have no further

    12 questions, Your Honours.

    13 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    14 Mr. Tochilovsky.

    15 Let me turn to my colleagues.

    16 Judge Riad?

    17 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    18 Mr. President.

    19 Questioned by the Court:

    20 JUDGE RIAD: Good morning, Witness L. We

    21 can't say your name, so I'll just call you "L."

    22 I just want to clarify two small things that

    23 you said. You mentioned that Jelisic enjoyed a

    24 prominent position, and he was the man who gave orders

    25 and his orders were obeyed. Did anybody know where



  4. 1 this authority came from? What was the source of his

    2 power?

    3 A. No. On one occasion, when I was working in

    4 the SUP, in the police workshop, we transferred that

    5 workshop to the automobile association's premises and I

    6 was working there. On one occasion, a car of a Jetta

    7 make came -- something was wrong with it; it had to be

    8 repaired -- and Goran arrived there in his Renault 5

    9 because he had to replace a part in it. I heard him

    10 greet the other men, "Well, how's things, Raso?" and I

    11 saw that it was Radovan Karadzic there. Then Radovan

    12 asked him, "Well, how's business?" and he said, "Fine,"

    13 and Radovan said, "That's the way it should be. Just

    14 go on like that."

    15 JUDGE RIAD: So that was the source of his

    16 authority.

    17 You also mentioned that Jelisic told you

    18 proudly that he would usually kill 20 to 30 persons

    19 before having his morning coffee. On what occasion was

    20 that, and did he tell you that directly or you heard

    21 it?

    22 A. No, he said it to me, after I had spent the

    23 whole night in the office.

    24 JUDGE RIAD: Why did he receive you in his

    25 office?



  5. 1 A. He did not invite me to his office, but when

    2 I was transferred from the Laser to Luka, I was -- a

    3 soldier recognised me then, and I asked him about a

    4 policeman who had been wounded. He then took me out

    5 and would not let me be -- he wouldn't leave me in the

    6 hangar and wanted me to be in the office.

    7 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

    8 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    9 Judge Riad.

    10 Judge Rodrigues?

    11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    12 Mr. President.

    13 Witness L, good morning. I have two

    14 questions to ask you.

    15 There was an explosion of a bridge and

    16 several people were killed; do you remember that?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] About these

    19 deaths, were there any funerals?

    20 A. They came and took away the dead. They could

    21 not find them all because many of them had fallen into

    22 the Sava, and they simply could not be retrieved from

    23 the river.

    24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] As regards

    25 the inspectors who were wearing civilian clothing, were



  6. 1 there any kind of hierarchial relationships between

    2 them and Mr. Goran Jelisic?

    3 A. I could not tell you that.

    4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] From what

    5 you observed, did they obey Goran Jelisic or did Goran

    6 Jelisic obey the inspectors in the camp?

    7 A. In the camp? Well, I wasn't there long

    8 enough to be able to tell you exactly who issued orders

    9 to whom.

    10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But

    11 generally speaking, who was responsible for the camp?

    12 Who was the camp commander?

    13 A. All I saw was that all the troops and other

    14 people in uniforms obeyed Goran.

    15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

    16 very much, Witness L.

    17 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    18 Judge Rodrigues.

    19 Mr. Greaves?

    20 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, I would ask Your

    21 Honour to grant leave, please, for something arising

    22 out of the questions that Judge Riad asked, which, of

    23 course, was not a matter that the Prosecution relied

    24 upon, the alleged meeting with Mr. Karadzic. I seek

    25 Your Honour's leave to be able to ask this witness two



  7. 1 questions, please.

    2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I would like to

    3 consult my colleagues because that ordinarily is not

    4 something that's done. I can point that out to you.

    5 [Trial Chamber confers]

    6 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Greaves,

    7 ask your questions, but the Prosecutor will also have a

    8 right to reply if he wants to.

    9 MR. GREAVES: Of course. That's entirely

    10 proper.

    11 Cross-examined by Mr. Greaves:

    12 Q. Mr. L, you mentioned an incident when --

    13 MR. GREAVES: I'm sorry. I hadn't realised

    14 Your Honour was still speaking.

    15 Q. Mr. L, you mentioned an incident when you

    16 claim that Goran Jelisic met with Radovan Karadzic. Is

    17 this correct: that you made a statement and that you

    18 claim that that happened on either the 2nd or 3rd of

    19 July, 1992?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. Mr. L, what I must ask you is this: You are,

    22 in fact, mistaken about that, I suggest, because Goran

    23 Jelisic was elsewhere on both the 2nd and 3rd of July,

    24 1992, and he was not at the garage repair shop that you

    25 claim he was, or the automotive repair shop, as you



  8. 1 suggest.

    2 A. Yes. He came there, and his Monika also

    3 came. Kosta and his mother-in-law, they all came

    4 together.

    5 Q. And your account of the conversation is that

    6 Mr. Karadzic asked how the work was going, and you

    7 claim that Goran replied, "Super," and Mr. Karadzic is

    8 alleged to have replied, "Good. Carry on." That was,

    9 according to you, the extent of the conversation?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 MR. GREAVES: Thank you.

    12 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice, do

    13 you want to add something?

    14 MR. NICE: I have nothing to ask on this

    15 topic. Although I know that Your Honour will be

    16 telling the witness that his evidence is concluded, and

    17 it probably is concluded, there is a procedural matter

    18 that I'd like to raise after he's left the courtroom

    19 that relates to his testimony and his

    20 cross-examination. It may be prudent just to keep him

    21 back for a couple of minutes outside in case there's

    22 the need to ask him something further.

    23 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Do you really

    24 need the witness not to be here? Because we had that

    25 request from the Defence yesterday. Can't we do



  9. 1 something else than to have him isolated? Ordinarily,

    2 you know, the examination-in-chief, the

    3 cross-examination, and the Judges' questions are

    4 complete now. I would like us to respect a certain

    5 order. That's all. I think that if, after the closure

    6 of this witness's testimony, you can tell us if you

    7 have to do something else, but I would say to Mr. L

    8 that we have concluded now.

    9 Have you anything you would like to add to

    10 all the things that you've said? I don't want you to

    11 leave with the feeling of having forgotten something.

    12 You can say it if you feel that you have something you

    13 wish to add. Otherwise, we are really finished, for

    14 the Judges.

    15 THE WITNESS: I do. I'm really very sorry

    16 that Goran Jelisic is not present here because I should

    17 like to confront him.

    18 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I think

    19 everybody regrets that, but as we said to another

    20 witness, whom you probably met, Goran Jelisic is sick

    21 and has a medical certificate attesting to that fact.

    22 We cannot countermand the physician's orders.

    23 Witness L, you are free to think what you

    24 wish. This is a civilised society where counsel do

    25 their work, judges do their work, and physicians do



  10. 1 their work, and I think otherwise a society cannot

    2 function. If I ask your understanding, in a few

    3 moments we're going to hear some news about

    4 Mr. Jelisic. Apparently, we are asking you to remain

    5 available to those who asked you to come here; that is,

    6 the Prosecutor. We're going to adjourn for a few

    7 moments, and then we will know about Mr. Jelisic.

    8 For the time being, the court stands

    9 adjourned.

    10 --- Break taken at 10.02 a.m.

    11 --- On resuming at 10.35 a.m.

    12 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We will now

    13 resume. Please be seated. Mr. Registrar, would you

    14 give us information about Mr. Jelisic?

    15 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Mr. President. During

    16 the pause I contacted the detention unit. The

    17 physician there and the psychiatrist at the detention

    18 unit told me that the accused Jelisic was in a position

    19 to attend the trial today, and the order has been given

    20 so that Mr. Jelisic will be here, I think, about five

    21 minutes after eleven.

    22 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] All right.

    23 Then I think there are no further comments to make

    24 about that problem. I suggest that we resume at five

    25 after eleven.



  11. 1 Mr. Greaves, do you have a comment you'd like

    2 to make? I thought you didn't, but if you do, please

    3 make them.

    4 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, we'd like to have

    5 a brief period where we can confer with Mr. Jelisic

    6 upon his arrival at the Tribunal, if we may, please.

    7 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I don't want to

    8 refuse you the right to speak with Mr. Jelisic, but I

    9 would want to say to you that the cross-examination

    10 will begin with Mr. Jelisic. If you want to take

    11 advantage of that discussion, I ask you to use your

    12 influence to be sure that everything goes properly.

    13 Ordinarily, Mr. Jelisic would be here at five

    14 after eleven, and as soon as -- that is, as soon as he

    15 arrives in the Tribunal I will give you a few moments,

    16 but I will not delay the proceedings any further. Do

    17 we agree?

    18 MR. GREAVES: May we just have five minutes

    19 with him, just to make it absolutely clear what's going

    20 on, what's happened, and to bring him up do date,

    21 please?

    22 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes. I count

    23 on all the assistance you've already given to the

    24 Tribunal yesterday in this very sensitive issue, but

    25 theoretically, Mr. Jelisic would be here and, in



  12. 1 practical terms, he will be here.

    2 I would also like to say -- you may be

    3 seated, Mr. Greaves -- ask you how you see the

    4 subsequent proceedings going forward. We have a few

    5 moments.

    6 I'd like to ask the Prosecution, in view of

    7 all the delays, I would like to know if he's going to

    8 need a few more days after the 17th of September, and

    9 also ask Mr. Greaves at what point he will be ready to

    10 present the Defence evidence. Will it be the 15th, the

    11 25th of October, or the 1st or 15th of November? This

    12 is so we can organise ourselves properly.

    13 Mr. Nice, where are you at this point?

    14 MR. NICE: The Court will remember that I

    15 wanted to raise a matter in relation to the last

    16 witness. Before I turn to the Court's immediate

    17 questions, can I deal with that and then deal with

    18 everything at one go?

    19 So far as the last witness is concerned, we

    20 became troubled by the cross-examination, which, of

    21 course, in part was cross-examination about identity.

    22 One useful purpose of cross-examination can

    23 be to undermine a witness where the witness is to be

    24 properly undermined; to raise with the witness

    25 alternative interpretations of events which the witness



  13. 1 might, on reflection, adopt as being possible,

    2 probable, or definitely true; or to assist the

    3 Chamber.

    4 A further useful purpose of

    5 cross-examination, where a defendant has a positive

    6 case to advance and a case that he will be advancing in

    7 due course, is to put that case to the witness so that

    8 the witness can deal with it. Indeed, in part,

    9 Mr. Greaves did that by saying to this witness, "Well,

    10 you're wrong when you've identified Mr. Jelisic." But

    11 what he didn't do, and hasn't faced at all, is the fact

    12 that the witness said Jelisic killed the brothers from

    13 Zvornik, and that by his pleas of guilty, Jelisic has

    14 specifically admitted taking those two brothers out of

    15 the hangar and killing one of them. In his interview,

    16 he asserts that although he took them both out himself,

    17 the final shot was delivered by him in respect of one

    18 brother and by someone else in respect of the other.

    19 Now, the whole issue of identity hasn't been

    20 sorted out at all. No version has been postulated to

    21 the witness as a version which might somehow explain

    22 how the man he says was Jelisic, the same and single

    23 man who gave the name that Jelisic used when he came

    24 here to court and acknowledged that he himself was the

    25 "Serbian Adolf," no version has been made to unravel



  14. 1 these contradictions.

    2 There's been a great deal of

    3 cross-examination, some of it, it may be thought,

    4 simply repeating what has been given in direct, but

    5 within the time allowed. This issue of identity hasn't

    6 been taken further at all, and I don't know what's

    7 going to be advanced in due course.

    8 Is it now to be advanced that the pleas of

    9 guilty, the signed agreement, I think, by the Defence

    10 indicating that indeed Jelisic took out the two

    11 brothers from Zvornik and certainly shot one of them,

    12 is that now all to be undone?

    13 On top of those difficulties, there is, of

    14 course, the difficulty that Jelisic wasn't here. This

    15 witness says he doesn't know whether he could identify

    16 him or not. Of course, there are limitations on the

    17 value of courtroom identifications, but by his absence

    18 from the courtroom, he makes that process more

    19 difficult.

    20 So it was with that in mind that I asked the

    21 witness to be held back, in case, on reflection,

    22 there's any further detail that the Defence should be

    23 raising with this witness to assist you, detail they

    24 might raise from the positive case they may know they

    25 are going to assert in due course.



  15. 1 Dealing now with Your Honour's question about

    2 the timetable generally, the various events that have

    3 delayed matters over the last two weeks makes

    4 concluding the evidence by the end of next week either

    5 very unlikely or inconceivable.

    6 We will do all we can to expedite the

    7 hearing. Our remaining witnesses from the former

    8 Yugoslavia are, for the most part, witnesses who can be

    9 taken very shortly, half an hour in direct for, I

    10 think, four or five of them.

    11 I say half an hour in direct. The lists,

    12 which we do at the request the Defence, take a large

    13 part, effectively, of the time, and yet I notice are

    14 frequently then simply cross-examined as to the same

    15 detail, with no further matter elicited in

    16 cross-examination. But I simply observe that.

    17 So I think the five witnesses, or

    18 thereabouts, from the former Yugoslavia will be very

    19 short.

    20 Two witnesses may be a little longer. One is

    21 a witness who was added comparatively recently and who

    22 has a very detailed story to tell, and then there's

    23 another witness who had office in the town of Brcko and

    24 can give a history of the political and military

    25 developments at about the turn of the months of April



  16. 1 and May. So those witnesses may be, in chief, a little

    2 longer, but in neither case will they last longer than

    3 an hour in chief, in my estimation.

    4 So that leaves -- that means something in the

    5 order, as I add things up, of four and a half, five

    6 hours of examination-in-chief for that category of

    7 witness.

    8 The expert can be read; that won't take very

    9 long. The second expert will be called, and some

    10 period of time must be allowed for him, maybe half a

    11 day in all. There are then the investigators who

    12 produced the interviews. If they are to be read to the

    13 degree I forecast may be necessary, that could take the

    14 better part of the day to read, but if I put that

    15 evidence as the last evidence in the case or

    16 potentially the last evidence in the case, we may

    17 always be able to abbreviate the time the interviews

    18 will take or deal with them in some other way; for

    19 example, by inviting the Court to take them away and

    20 read parts of them and thereafter to count those parts

    21 read as given in evidence.

    22 So I would have forecast it unlikely that I

    23 will finish by the end of next week, but I would hope

    24 not to require more than a day or so beyond then.

    25 Does that answer Your Honour's questions?



  17. 1 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you. You

    2 have dealt with two problems. I will, of course, give

    3 the floor to Mr. Greaves. Can we agree that around the

    4 23rd or 24th of September you will have finished? I'm

    5 talking about September, that is, the week after.

    6 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I hadn't appreciated

    7 we might be allowed to run on into that week, but if we

    8 are, then yes, that would be my forecast.

    9 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I would like to

    10 turn to Mr. Greaves. There are three questions, one

    11 which we can deal with immediately; that is, the one

    12 dealing with cross-examination. But having said that,

    13 I would like to make -- well, I'll make a comment at

    14 the end.

    15 Mr. Greaves, please proceed.

    16 MR. GREAVES: Yes. Can I make it plain that

    17 as far as the issue of identity is concerned, so that

    18 it's established, it is not accepted that Goran Jelisic

    19 went to the Laser company and identified himself as

    20 Adolf and that in that regard, that witness has got the

    21 wrong person and that is demonstrated by his having

    22 given an inaccurate description of the man. There is

    23 no dispute about the issue concerning the murders, and

    24 so it relates to his identification as a person who

    25 announced himself, in the circumstances described, as



  18. 1 Adolf at the Laser company.

    2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Very well.

    3 Before we move to a kind of a Status Conference, on

    4 that point, I have to say that I myself am looking at

    5 the indictment, and on several occasions, Mr. Greaves,

    6 I have pointed out to you that there were facts for

    7 which a guilty plea had been entered, specifically

    8 Counts 16 and 17, having to do with the brothers from

    9 Zvornik, that is, the killing of Huso and Smajil

    10 Zahirovic. I have been paying careful attention to

    11 this.

    12 I also invite the Prosecution, because each

    13 party has to do its work, I invite the Prosecution to

    14 make objections at the proper point. I cannot be the

    15 only one to do so, but I do that by referring to and

    16 using the powers given to me, that there must be a

    17 meaning, and the meaning of all of this is that the

    18 accused acknowledged the murders which are included in

    19 the relevant counts.

    20 The second point is having to do with the

    21 length of the cross-examination. Yes, Mr. Greaves, you

    22 do take a great deal of time for your

    23 cross-examination. Far be it for me to attempt to

    24 limit you, but it is true that frequently we repeat

    25 things that were already asked of the witness. We're



  19. 1 not going to prepare a theory on cross-examination

    2 here, a legal theory on cross-examination, but

    3 nonetheless, it is unquestionable that this does have

    4 an influence on the conduct of the proceedings. I

    5 can't say anything further at this point, but once

    6 again, I bring you back to our founding text, which

    7 gives you the right to cross-examination, which is in

    8 Article 21 in the Statute on the rights of the

    9 accused. But I refer you back to the Rules of

    10 Procedure and Evidence and to try to make the

    11 proceedings not only more expeditious, because

    12 expeditiousness is not in and of itself a reason for

    13 doing something, but effectiveness and efficiency is.

    14 I would also ask the Office of the Prosecutor

    15 to raise the objections that it requires without

    16 stretching things out too long.

    17 Now I would like to ask Mr. Greaves about the

    18 schedule. Can we consider that an additional week in

    19 September would be possible? Then at what point,

    20 either in October or November, could you organise the

    21 presentation of your defence evidence? Perhaps you

    22 would like to think about that, I don't know, but I

    23 invite you to reflect on that.

    24 MR. GREAVES: Yes. Your Honour pulled out of

    25 the hat a number of dates, and I'm afraid I haven't had



  20. 1 an opportunity to discuss those with my learned friend,

    2 who assists me or who leads me, and I would want to

    3 discuss each of those dates and a specific timetable in

    4 light of what is said.

    5 As I understood what my learned friend for

    6 the Prosecution was saying, that he thought he could

    7 complete his case possibly on the first day of the

    8 following week -- but I don't know whether he can be

    9 any more specific than that -- there are a number of

    10 considerations that arise.

    11 First of all -- and we have taken no decision

    12 as to this because, of course, the Prosecution evidence

    13 is not complete -- as to whether there should be a

    14 motion placed before Your Honours that there is no case

    15 to answer on Count 1 of genocide, at the moment, that

    16 is an open question which is possible that there will

    17 be, but I cannot say definitively: Yes, there will.

    18 It depends on all the evidence being available so that

    19 we can take that final decision.

    20 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Could you be

    21 more specific? Are you referring to a specific text?

    22 MR. GREAVES: Will Your Honour give me a

    23 moment while I get my Rules out, please?

    24 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes.

    25 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, the rule is Rule



  21. 1 98 bis.

    2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Are you going

    3 to file that motion, or do you have to wait -- well,

    4 you do have to wait until the end of the Prosecution's

    5 case, unless you've already taken a decision.

    6 MR. GREAVES: No. Your Honour hasn't

    7 followed what I have just been saying. We may or may

    8 not file such a motion, but no decision has been taken

    9 or can be taken until the evidence has been completed,

    10 and we would need time to consider that issue.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] This is in

    12 order to have some indication of things: If you

    13 thought that you would not file such a motion, how much

    14 time would you need between the presentation of the

    15 Prosecution case and the beginning of the Defence

    16 case?

    17 MR. GREAVES: We would prefer to have a

    18 period of six to eight weeks in order to complete the

    19 logistical -- there's a very substantial logistical

    20 burden that arises in terms of time; that is, in

    21 relation to, in particular, our witnesses, of whom

    22 there may be between 40 and 60.

    23 Your Honour will know that the administration

    24 of that sort of quantity in making arrangements with

    25 the Victims and Witnesses Unit takes a considerable



  22. 1 amount of time. We have some material that's already

    2 been assembled, but that's what we would be looking

    3 at.

    4 So I think Your Honour mentioned a date in

    5 the middle of November. That would be, from our point

    6 of view, a preferable date, but we couldn't be ready on

    7 the dates in October.

    8 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] All right.

    9 We're not going to take a decision on that today, but I

    10 would like to say that Mr. Fourmy is always available

    11 to you. He's here in the courtroom today and he's

    12 always available to you, both for the Prosecution and

    13 the Defence.

    14 What I suggest is that we take a 10- to

    15 15-minute break, and then we will resume with the

    16 cross-examination of Mrs. K. I would like her to be in

    17 the courtroom before we arrive.

    18 --- Recess taken at 10.55 a.m.

    19 --- On resuming at 11.15 a.m.

    20 [The witness entered court]

    21 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We will resume

    22 the hearing now. Mr. Registrar, have the accused

    23 brought in, please.

    24 [The accused entered court]

    25 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We will now



  23. 1 resume with the cross-examination of Witness K. Let me

    2 remind this -- the public, I'm saying this for the

    3 public, this is a protected witness, and I remind the

    4 witness that she is still under oath.

    5 Without any further ado, I ask Mr. Greaves to

    6 conduct his cross-examination.

    7 Madam, do you feel all right? Do you feel

    8 better? It's the Presiding Judge speaking to you. Do

    9 you feel better?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] For the time

    12 being, this will be the cross-examination that is going

    13 to begin now. Mr. Greaves, the floor is yours.

    14 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much, Your

    15 Honour.

    16 WITNESS: WITNESS K (Resumed)

    17 [Witness answers through interpreter]

    18 Cross-examined by Mr. Greaves:

    19 Q. Witness K, I want to start by going through

    20 one or two things with you. The first is: If at any

    21 moment during my questions of you you feel the need to

    22 stop and take a moment to reflect and compose yourself,

    23 please tell me. And tell me straightaway, because I

    24 don't want you to be uncomfortable or distressed in any

    25 way. Do you understand that?



  24. 1 I don't think you've answered. Did

    2 understand the question, what I'd asked you?

    3 A. Yes. Yes.

    4 Q. Good. I don't mind whether you give your

    5 answers in English or in Bosnian. Whichever makes you

    6 feel more comfortable, please use that.

    7 The next thing is this, Witness K: If you

    8 haven't understood my question and you want me to

    9 repeat it, stop me, tell me you haven't understood it,

    10 and ask me to repeat it or rephrase it. Will you do

    11 that for me?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. Thank you. The next thing is this: There

    14 will be some questions which I'll ask of you which I

    15 hope can be dealt with with just a yes or no answer,

    16 and if you can keep it short, your experience will be

    17 over that much the quicker, because I don't want you to

    18 be here any longer than is absolutely necessary, all

    19 right?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. Thank you very much.

    22 A. Not at all.

    23 Q. Witness K, I want to ask you just a few quick

    24 questions about your position before the war. You've

    25 told us about your occupation. In addition to that,



  25. 1 were you in any way engaged in the political life of

    2 your community?

    3 A. Never. Never.

    4 Q. Have you become involved in any way, since

    5 the war, in politics?

    6 A. Never. Never. I never liked politics and I

    7 never wanted to be involved in it. I worked for a

    8 health organisation, and I always believed that people

    9 working in health organisations should not belong to

    10 any political parties.

    11 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, I'm going to ask

    12 some questions which I think would be better asked in

    13 private session than otherwise.

    14 [Private session]

    15 (redacted)

    16 (redacted)

    17 (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)



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    13 page 1396 redacted private session

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    13 page 1397 redacted private session

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  28. 1 (redacted) 2 (redacted)

    3 (redacted)

    4 (redacted)

    5 [Open session]

    6 A. I apologise. I should like to add something

    7 to that answer. I was beginning to say nightmares --

    8 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] No. The

    9 question has not been allowed. You don't have to

    10 answer anything about it.

    11 Mr. Greaves, please continue.

    12 A. Thank you.

    13 MR. GREAVES:

    14 Q. Witness K, I want to ask you, please, about

    15 the 3rd of May and the fighting that took place. Is it

    16 correct that you were on duty and, during the course of

    17 your duty on the 3rd of May, wounded people were

    18 brought to the hospital where you were working?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber, please, how

    21 many people, in your estimation, were brought to the

    22 hospital, having been wounded as a result of fighting?

    23 A. There were seven or eight civilians who had

    24 severe injuries, and I had to look after them and lend

    25 all assistance.



  29. 1 Q. Did some of those casualties die?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. And did you yourself see the injuries which

    4 they had sustained?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. Were they, in part, people who had been

    7 injured by firearms, by --

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. But also some who had been injured by

    10 shelling and artillery fire?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. The hospital or medical facility where you

    13 were working and saw these casualties, was that the

    14 only hospital in Brcko?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Was anything said by the casualties as to the

    17 places and how they'd come by their injuries?

    18 A. Yes. They said that those people were in the

    19 streets, moving somewhere in front of their houses or

    20 in their yards, but mostly, those were civilians who

    21 had been moving about.

    22 Q. I want to ask you now about being taken to

    23 the Luka facility. On the way there, you were driven

    24 through the entire city centre?

    25 A. Yes.



  30. 1 Q. Did you see signs that there had been

    2 considerable fighting in the city that day?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. And, indeed, was fighting continuing whilst

    5 you were taken to Luka?

    6 A. No, not at that particular moment.

    7 Q. I think you've described the instruction that

    8 had taken place; the word used was "overwhelming."

    9 Does that mean that there had been a considerable

    10 amount of damage to buildings from artillery fire?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. As well as that, were there any signs that

    13 you were able to see that there were casualties in the

    14 street, casualties from that fighting?

    15 A. Yes, I did see them.

    16 Q. By "casualties," are we talking about people

    17 who were dead or people who were wounded, or both?

    18 A. Dead.

    19 Q. I just want you to give us an estimate, if

    20 you can. I don't want an exact number, but are we

    21 talking about just a few, or tens or hundreds of

    22 people?

    23 A. Five or six, not in a group, but on the

    24 corners of the streets, on the streets. I think in

    25 every street I would see a body here and there lying



  31. 1 down on the sidewalk, on the pavement.

    2 Q. Again, if you can help me, tell me this:

    3 Were those people who had obviously been shot by

    4 firearms or people who had been killed by artillery, or

    5 both?

    6 A. I find it hard to answer that question

    7 because I was in shock, and the vehicle was moving so

    8 that I really couldn't pay much attention to the

    9 injuries, whether they came from firearms or shells.

    10 But they were all lying there motionless.

    11 Q. Thank you. I don't want you to mention the

    12 name of the doctor who was with you, but has that

    13 doctor survived the war?

    14 A. No, unfortunately.

    15 Q. What about the other two people who were with

    16 you? Again don't tell us the names, but if we need to

    17 ask you, in due course, we can put it down on a piece

    18 of paper. The other two people who were with you, do

    19 you know if they have survived these events?

    20 A. As far as I know, I am not quite sure, but I

    21 believe they did.

    22 Q. Again don't tell us what the names are in

    23 public. You knew their first names, these two people?

    24 A. Yes. Yes, we worked together. They were my

    25 colleagues at work.



  32. 1 Q. Would you be able to supply us, Witness K, if

    2 you could write it down on a piece of paper, would you

    3 be able to supply us with their surnames?

    4 A. You know what? We had agreed before, the

    5 doctor and us, that we would not give any names, and if

    6 anyone wanted to come personally, I'd really rather not

    7 give any names. I feel highly reluctant to do that

    8 because that is what we had agreed and that is what we

    9 said we'd do.

    10 Q. All right. Can I turn, please, now to your

    11 arrival at Luka? Can you just tell us what time it was

    12 that you arrived?

    13 A. I really would not be able to give you the

    14 exact time because I have no means to tell that, but I

    15 know it was between the day and the night. The night

    16 was falling. I mean, one could still see, but it was

    17 getting darker.

    18 Q. Before you arrived at Luka, in light of what

    19 had happened during the course of the day, the fighting

    20 and the people being brought in, how would you describe

    21 your condition at that stage? Were you deeply shocked,

    22 deeply distressed?

    23 A. You are all educated people and you know what

    24 it means for people who do not get enough sleep, do not

    25 get enough food or anything. So those were the



  33. 1 circumstances. I was trying to summon all my strength

    2 to keep my presence of mind, but I did feel very

    3 distressed and very tired.

    4 Q. Having arrived at Luka, were you able to see

    5 if there were people who were "detainees," if I may use

    6 that phrase, already at Luka, apart from the people you

    7 saw outside later, but immediately upon your arrival?

    8 A. When I entered Luka, I had no idea that it

    9 was a camp. I was simply told that we were going for

    10 interrogation. I didn't know it was a camp; I thought

    11 it was a warehouse. But opposite the gate, I saw

    12 policemen, lots of troops moving towards the office,

    13 towards the hangar, and I was really at a loss. I

    14 didn't know what was going on.

    15 Q. Were you interrogated that day, the day of

    16 your arrival at Luka?

    17 A. They brought us into the office opposite the

    18 hangar, and there was a policeman who was very decent.

    19 He even offered us something to drink; he tried to make

    20 us comfortable. He told us that it was only a

    21 formality, the interrogation was only a formality.

    22 Q. Were you told what it was going to be about?

    23 A. No, but he said that the interrogation would

    24 only be a formality. He did not tell us what kind of

    25 an interrogation it would be.



  34. 1 Q. There then follows the incidents involving

    2 the doctor and the two other people. As a result of

    3 that, did that increase the sense of distress and

    4 confusion which you were in?

    5 A. As we were talking with this policeman, who

    6 was a very nice man and someone who made us feel

    7 easier, we felt that we were less tense, until another

    8 policeman rushed in. His face was showing rage, his

    9 eyes were bloodshot, and he looked beyond description.

    10 He seemed beyond himself with rage, irritated -- I

    11 really lack the words to describe him -- a terrible

    12 look. I mean, it was horrible to look at him.

    13 Q. I understand all that, Witness K. I don't

    14 want to go into the detail of what happened to you,

    15 please, but can I just take you back to the question

    16 which I asked, which was this: Those incidents, this

    17 man coming in and behaving in the way that he did, did

    18 that increase the degree of stress, distress, and the

    19 confusion which you were in?

    20 A. It would be only natural, wouldn't it? Yes.

    21 I believe that anyone who found himself in that

    22 situation ...

    23 Q. Witness K, I'm asking you because you're the

    24 only one who was there and is talking to us today, and

    25 you're the only one who can describe your condition.



  35. 1 All right?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Does it come to this: that at the conclusion

    4 of that incident involving the man who had come in and

    5 was so angry and beat people, you were left in a

    6 condition where you were not really able to take in the

    7 details of all that was going on around you?

    8 A. I was trying to remember the details. I was

    9 really exerting myself to remember details, to see

    10 things around me, but I was shivering. I thought that

    11 my stomach was in my throat. My heart wanted to jump

    12 out. It was a feeling of physical terror that I

    13 experienced. But I can tell you that mentally I was

    14 really trying to preserve my normalcy, to be as normal

    15 as I possibly could.

    16 Q. Of course. But despite making that effort,

    17 was the end result that you were, indeed, confused, for

    18 example, about the details of the people who were

    19 around you?

    20 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Greaves,

    21 just a moment, please. It seems to me that you have

    22 asked this question three times. Three times.

    23 MR. GREAVES: Well, I've asked her about the

    24 different times during the course of the day, and it is

    25 possible that the condition of the lady changes. She



  36. 1 hasn't entirely answered the question, and I have got

    2 one more question that I want to ask her.

    3 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] She told you

    4 that she kept her psychological calm and that she had a

    5 physical feeling of fear. She is in a place where

    6 terrifying things are happening. She has a physical

    7 fear. She doesn't feel good physically, but she tells

    8 us that she tried to keep her emotional clarity or her

    9 mental clarity.

    10 It seems to me that you're going back to that

    11 question which you were not allowed to ask at the very

    12 beginning. I consider that this question has been

    13 answered. Please change your question or move to

    14 another subject.

    15 MR. GREAVES:

    16 Q. Witness K, I want to ask you, then, in light

    17 of that, about the incident where you were taken

    18 outside the building and you claim to have seen a

    19 number of people lined up outside the hangar.

    20 A. Yes. Not a number of them. There were quite

    21 a number of people.

    22 Q. Forty or fifty or so?

    23 A. About 50. About 50. The cue was quite

    24 long.

    25 Q. You did not see any person who died as a



  37. 1 result of that incident, did you?

    2 A. I can say that I was first taken to that line

    3 and I could see very many troops standing behind that

    4 alignment. They were aligned facing the wall with

    5 their hands up, and I was by the hangar door, and at

    6 that moment I was -- I expected that I was ready to

    7 die. I wasn't afraid, because I saw the kind of people

    8 I was sharing fate with. I had all my presence of mind

    9 at that moment, and I even was quite ready and happy to

    10 end like them.

    11 Q. I'll ask the question again because you

    12 haven't answered it. Did you or did you not see any

    13 person who had died as a result of that incident?

    14 A. I must cover a slightly longer period of

    15 time. Since we were lined up and we were all ready to

    16 be shot -- I even hear the word "ready" -- at that

    17 moment I managed to -- I felt so brave, so strong, and

    18 even so happy that I would end up like this -- that is,

    19 with a bullet rather than under torture -- that I

    20 turned back towards those troops who were behind our

    21 backs, and I turned, and then they told me to step

    22 out. I didn't know they were addressing me, so I again

    23 turned toward the wall, until one of the soldiers came

    24 to me and said, "You, Madam, you in white, you step

    25 out."



  38. 1 He took me by the hand. He was walking in

    2 front of me by those troops, that is -- excuse me. I

    3 was on the other side from where the troops were

    4 aligned.

    5 As we were coming toward the office -- that

    6 is, getting further away from the line -- I heard

    7 several shots and then I felt -- I smelled gunpowder

    8 and I heard the sound of a body falling.

    9 At that moment, he was holding me by the

    10 hand, took me into the office. So I could not see,

    11 because he was right next to me, shoulder to shoulder.

    12 I could not really turn around and see what happened,

    13 even though I wanted to, but I simply could not do it.

    14 Q. I want to ask you next -- I don't want to ask

    15 you any of the details concerning the incident which

    16 happened to you outside the camp, in the vehicle, but I

    17 want to ask you about the immediate aftermath of that.

    18 A. Right.

    19 Q. Some people appeared, and you got to know the

    20 name of one of those people as Dragan.

    21 A. Yes. That is how he introduced himself.

    22 Q. Just so that it is clear, that Dragan was not

    23 Dragan Veselic but another Dragan?

    24 A. Yes, another Dragan.

    25 Q. The people who appeared at the conclusion of



  39. 1 that incident, were they in uniform?

    2 A. Yes, of the Yugoslav army.

    3 Q. Did you learn any more information about the

    4 man Dragan, as to his precise identity? Did you learn

    5 his surname eventually or any further details about

    6 him?

    7 A. You mean Dragan who came at that moment or

    8 Dragan who was the head of police?

    9 Q. The Dragan who came at that moment.

    10 A. No. No. I did not hear his surname. He

    11 only introduced himself as Dragan, and he was very

    12 kind.

    13 Q. Did you see them subsequently at the Luka

    14 facility?

    15 A. No.

    16 Q. I want to ask you now about Dragan Veselic.

    17 How long had you known him from before the war?

    18 A. (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 I'm sorry. I would like to add one more



  40. 1 thing. Dragan Veselic, two days before the war

    2 started, he personally came to our home to visit us.

    3 Q. When you saw him before the war, did he still

    4 have the same appearance that you'd always known him to

    5 have?

    6 A. Yes. He had a beard, a moustache. He was a

    7 thin, tall man with longish hair, and I was used to

    8 seeing him that way for those three years. He always

    9 looked the same way during those three years.

    10 Q. When you saw him at Luka, were you unable to

    11 recognise him?

    12 A. He asked me at first -- he personally asked

    13 me whether I knew him. I looked at him and tried to

    14 recognise him; however, I did not recognise him. He

    15 was shaven, he had a short haircut. He looked like a

    16 military man, naturally, in police uniform. Then he

    17 answered to me that he knew me very well.

    18 Q. Was it by that that you were then able to

    19 establish who it was?

    20 A. No. No, did he not tell me. He just said

    21 that he knew me very well. He did not introduce

    22 himself to me by his name and surname.

    23 Q. I want to ask now, please, about a document

    24 which you helped to create. Is it right that in

    25 March 1998, Witness K, you were asked to fill in a form



  41. 1 about what had happened at Luka? Do you remember doing

    2 that?

    3 A. Excuse me. Could you please repeat your

    4 question.

    5 Q. Yes, of course. I don't want to know where

    6 you were living in March 1998, but in March 1998, were

    7 you receiving counselling and treatment for your

    8 condition from a particular group of people?

    9 A. I went to talk, and I felt tormented in my

    10 soul. I felt the gravity of everything I went

    11 through. I talked in order to unburden my soul and to

    12 help myself and my family.

    13 Q. The document I'm talking about is one which

    14 was sent by somebody, I think, at the War Crimes

    15 Tribunal here in The Hague, Martina Fietz. The

    16 document was sent to you and you filled in the answers

    17 to some questions that were on the form.

    18 A. I don't remember. Could you please help me

    19 with this? I can't remember.

    20 Q. Of course. During the time you've been at

    21 The Hague here, during this recent period, have you

    22 gone through not just the statement which you made

    23 about these matters but another document which

    24 contained the information that you had given?

    25 A. Yes, now you've helped me a bit. Before that



  42. 1 I personally requested, through this organisation, that

    2 I come and testify, and I was asked to give something

    3 like a brief report as to what had happened. So it was

    4 very brief. I filled it out myself and sent it in. In

    5 other words, I was forcing this organisation to make it

    6 possible for me to come to this court.

    7 Q. Of course. We've identified the document.

    8 Would you accept that that took place in about March of

    9 last year, when you filled that form out?

    10 A. I do not remember the exact month, but I

    11 think it was before I made my main statement. It was

    12 before the main statement.

    13 Q. That would certainly fit. Did you fill it

    14 out in English or in your mother language, Witness K?

    15 A. I wrote in my own language, although my

    16 therapist helped me because we were working in both

    17 languages. I think, right now, that it was sent in the

    18 English language, but I'm not sure because she helped

    19 me quite a bit to express myself, to write this down,

    20 because I'm not very good at writing. So she helped me

    21 make that statement so that I would be pleased with

    22 it.

    23 Q. As well as -- and if I may commend you, you

    24 speak good English, but do you also write and read

    25 English, Witness K?



  43. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. Did you read through what had been filled in

    3 on the form before ceasing with the process of

    4 answering the questions?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. And were you satisfied that the details that

    7 you had put in that form were correct?

    8 A. It was supposed to be brief, and I was not

    9 satisfied with this brief presentation because it was

    10 not enough to present everything that had happened.

    11 However, I thought that the time would come when I

    12 would be able to express myself and make a full

    13 statement.

    14 Q. I understand that. However brief the

    15 document was and however unsatisfactory in terms of

    16 your not being able to put all the material forward,

    17 was what you had recorded in that form, was the

    18 information accurate?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. You were satisfied, having read it through,

    21 that it was correct in every detail?

    22 A. It was correct in every detail. However, I

    23 was not satisfied with the volume.

    24 Q. I think that's clear from what you've said.

    25 Just let me clarify again. You've seen that document



  44. 1 since you've been here in The Hague, before giving

    2 evidence, and you've been through it.

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. I'd like you to help us about what particular

    5 matter in that document about which we've been

    6 discussing. You were asked to describe -- one of the

    7 questions was this: "How would the witness describe

    8 Jelisic?"

    9 After dealing with his personal

    10 characteristics and behaviour, you said this:

    11 "He is a wrong man, blonde, up to about

    12 30 years old, with blue eyes and an icy look."

    13 Do you recall giving that description?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. When you used the word "blonde" -- and I'm

    16 looking around the courtroom that we've got -- do you

    17 mean the sort of colour that the lady, for example,

    18 over to my right or to my left -- is that what you

    19 meant by the word "blonde"?

    20 A. No. No. Like brownish. Not in that sense.

    21 You know, like the hair is not black. It's, like,

    22 brown. Not -- not very blonde. It's like a brownish

    23 colour.

    24 Q. As far as the age of the person you described

    25 as Goran Jelisic is concerned -- I'm sorry. I'll



  45. 1 rephrase it.

    2 When you say "30 years old" --

    3 A. I think that I pointed out "up to 30 years

    4 old."

    5 Q. I just want to explore that with you. What

    6 was it about the person that you saw that suggested he

    7 was up to about 30 years old?

    8 A. Up to the age of 30, people look different.

    9 They can be youthful looking. So I did not want to

    10 give his age very precisely, to say, for example, 25,

    11 because appearances -- people's appearances can vary.

    12 Some people are youthful looking, some people look

    13 older than their age, so that's why I didn't want to

    14 say 25 or something. I said up to 30, but I think I

    15 mentioned that he was a young man.

    16 Q. I fear that in this day and age it's a

    17 question of what you define as young. As one gets

    18 older, one finds that that definition changes.

    19 Witness K, again, the description that you

    20 give him includes the phrase "with blue eyes." What I

    21 want to put to you is this --

    22 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Keep your

    23 comments for yourself, please. You can make them at

    24 the proper time, when you are giving your final

    25 arguments, but ask specific, concise questions,



  46. 1 please.

    2 MR. GREAVES:

    3 Q. Witness K, as far as the description that you

    4 give of this man, what I ask you is this: that the

    5 person that you have described in that way was not and

    6 cannot have been Goran Jelisic, if only because he has

    7 not got blue eyes, and that you are mistaken as to his

    8 identity.

    9 A. I can point him out to you, and I do not

    10 think that I'm guilty. I can recognise him. I myself

    11 can recognise him not only at a long distance but also

    12 at a short distance.

    13 Q. Witness K, I've not suggested you're guilty

    14 of anything. Please understand that. That's not the

    15 purpose of my questions, to suggest there's any fault

    16 in you. I'm simply testing whether you've got the

    17 wrong person. Do you understand that?

    18 A. I stand by what I said. I stand by my

    19 answer.

    20 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Judge Rodrigues

    21 would like to make an intervention. Judge Rodrigues?

    22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness K,

    23 when you saw Goran Jelisic, how far from him were you

    24 at that point?

    25 A. He was in a corner, in a corner of this



  47. 1 room. I was perhaps five or six metres away from him.

    2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Was there

    3 light in the room?

    4 A. Yes, there was light.

    5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    6 Mr. President.

    7 [Trial Chamber confers]

    8 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Please

    9 continue, Mr. Greaves.

    10 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much, Your

    11 Honour.

    12 Q. I just want to conclude this part of my

    13 cross-examination by asking you this: The person you

    14 described as Goran Jelisic, I suggest to you, firstly,

    15 it was not the person who is sitting over there, and

    16 that Goran Jelisic never said to you any of the things

    17 which you have ascribed to him.

    18 A. Of course that he would refuse to admit that

    19 and I expected that, but I am prepared to guarantee by

    20 my very own life that I stand by every -- that he said

    21 every word he said. If necessary, I am prepared to

    22 give my own life to prove that that's true.

    23 Q. Witness K, I want just to return to something

    24 which I should have asked you.

    25 When you had been interrogated, is it correct



  48. 1 that the subject of interrogation when you were

    2 interviewed was your family, your husband's family,

    3 and, in particular, the men in your family, in very

    4 much particular, a considerable interest in one

    5 particular member of your family who had been in the

    6 police force?

    7 A. That interrogation took place at the SUP with

    8 Goran Jelisic. He only mentioned my husband through

    9 the tortures, and he said whatever happened there, that

    10 he would do to my husband before my very own eyes. He

    11 did not ask me about my family at all, Goran Jelisic,

    12 he did not.

    13 Q. It's right there was an occasion when such an

    14 interview was conducted which concerned your family

    15 and, in particular, your husband, (redacted)

    16 (redacted)

    17 A. Yes. He asked me where my husband was and I

    18 did not know exactly, (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted).

    23 May I tell you one thing? A year or two,

    24 while he worked, before the war, he had such earnings

    25 that he did not buy a kilogram of bread per day for



  49. 1 his family.

    2 Q. So this is clear, this was an interview

    3 conducted of you by Dragan Veselic, and there were four

    4 other soldiers in the room, weren't there?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. And Goran Jelisic was not present on this

    7 occasion, was he?

    8 A. No.

    9 Q. As well as those other questions, they also

    10 questioned you about your politics; is that right?

    11 A. Yes. They asked me about my husband, where

    12 he was. They asked me about my husband's family. This

    13 Dragan Veselic, whom I could not recognise then, he

    14 asked me about people he knew; that is to say, our

    15 common friends, he asked where these people were, and I

    16 answered all the questions that I knew the answers to.

    17 When I did not know the answer, I said that I didn't,

    18 and then they told me that I had to answer within five

    19 minutes, so they were bringing pressure to bear on me;

    20 otherwise, I would have to suffer the consequences.

    21 And I said, "You do what you have to do because I

    22 answered everything I could answer, and what I don't

    23 know, that, I cannot tell you." And I stood by that.

    24 Because Dragan Veselic came to my home, and we knew

    25 each other for three years, and he knew exactly what



  50. 1 was going on in my family.

    2 Q. At the time when you were asked about your

    3 politics, it was at that time, was it not, that a

    4 threat to kill you was made?

    5 A. Yes, I was pressured to give an answer to

    6 every question, and I said that I could not answer

    7 about things I did not know about, and I did not want

    8 to make a statement that was not consistent with the

    9 truth and that I did not know about, and I said, "You

    10 do your own job."

    11 Q. I want to turn now to incidents of sexual

    12 assault on you at Luka. I don't want to ask you about

    13 the details in any way, Witness K, but I want to ask

    14 you about the identity of the people who were involved

    15 in it.

    16 You've described one of the people as being,

    17 and I think the name you gave was, Makivija

    18 Stojanovic.

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. I want to suggest to you and ask you this --

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. -- how did you learn that name?

    23 A. Since we were opposite the kitchen and we

    24 were serving food to the soldiers, one could hear the

    25 names, and they were policemen who were often around,



  51. 1 so I heard this.

    2 On one occasion, this Makivija Stojanovic

    3 ordered me to go to another warehouse to bring in some

    4 goods for the military. He explained to me that it was

    5 next to the other building, and just like I had to do

    6 other things, I went to do that too. I went to this

    7 building and I started collecting these things. These

    8 were clothes, clothes for the army, and I started

    9 collecting this because I wanted to take it back.

    10 However, at that point in time, he was behind my back,

    11 and he physically assaulted me from the back. I tried

    12 to struggle, and the struggle went on for quite some

    13 time. I was doing quite well and I thought that I had

    14 defended myself, but then he put a pistol underneath my

    15 chin, and he told me not to move because otherwise I

    16 knew what would happen.

    17 I tried to defend my dignity, and I was

    18 shocked by the brutality of these people.

    19 Q. You gave a description of this man, and I'll

    20 read it to you so that it will refresh your memory:

    21 "Stojanovic was in his mid-30s. He was of

    22 average height and build. He had long curly brown or

    23 dark hair to his shoulder. He had no front teeth in

    24 his upper mouth. He wore the light blue shirt of the

    25 police" --



  52. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. -- "and dark trousers that were tucked into

    3 black military boots. I do not believe he had any

    4 facial hair, although he was not clean-shaven. He had

    5 a Bosnian accent."

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. Firstly, I suggest this so that you can deal

    8 with it: You are mistaken about the name which you

    9 have given to that person and that, in fact, no such

    10 person as Makivija Stojanovic existed at that camp?

    11 A. That's what they called each other. I heard

    12 the military men, how they addressed each other. Maybe

    13 they used false names in order to conceal their

    14 identity.

    15 Q. I'm going to suggest a name to you and see

    16 whether it helps you. That is a description of a man

    17 called Stojan Makivic.

    18 A. I can tell you that that is how they

    19 addressed each other in Luka, and they used nicknames a

    20 lot. I did not have their personal IDs so that I could

    21 check their identity. I did not have an opportunity to

    22 do that.

    23 May I just add one more thing? For example,

    24 Mauzer, at the hospital, I'm sure that that's not his

    25 real name; that was his nickname. They used nicknames



  53. 1 at the camp too.

    2 Q. At one stage during your detention at Luka,

    3 you became extremely ill.

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. During that illness, you were going in and

    6 out of consciousness and being delirious. Is this

    7 right: that --

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. -- for that period of time at least, you were

    10 unable to know what it was that was going on around

    11 you?

    12 A. Yes. Yes, I had a very high fever. I had

    13 big problems with my kidneys. My illness was getting

    14 worse because I did not receive any help. I tried to

    15 stay on my feet for as long as I could, but the pain

    16 was becoming unbearable. I could not stand the pain.

    17 The fever was going up without any medication. Since I

    18 had not slept for a long time, since I had not eaten

    19 properly for a long time, I had lost a lot of weight,

    20 and, therefore, I simply fell ill.

    21 Q. Is this the position: that there was a

    22 period of two to three days when you were slipping in

    23 and out of consciousness, very delirious, but you

    24 progressively became like that in the period before

    25 those two to three days?



  54. 1 A. Yes, I felt pain in my kidneys. I felt a bit

    2 of a fever; however, I received no help. I suffered.

    3 I had to go to the toilet often; however, it was not

    4 always accessible to me. I had bad problems, very bad

    5 problems, and I tried to take it for as long as I

    6 could, until it got so bad, until the illness had

    7 developed to such an extent that I could take it no

    8 longer.

    9 Q. Apart from the period of two or three days,

    10 in the lead-up to that period, were there times when

    11 you were unconscious as well?

    12 A. No.

    13 Q. Or suffering from delirium at all in the

    14 period leading up to those two or three days?

    15 A. Could you repeat that? Do you mean before it

    16 happened?

    17 Q. Yes.

    18 A. Before I succumbed to illness?

    19 Q. Yes.

    20 A. No. No.

    21 Q. Did you, in fact, receive some treatment from

    22 a nurse of some sort?

    23 A. A nurse could not treat me without medicines,

    24 and a young man brought the medicine, and I wanted to

    25 see him simply to thank him. He was treated as a



  55. 1 mentally handicapped person, but later on I came to

    2 know him and realised he was mentally the most stable

    3 person there.

    4 On the sly, he somehow surreptitiously

    5 brought the medicines to me which he found and asked me

    6 not to tell anyone. He gave them to my fellow nurse so

    7 that I could be helped. He even cried, that colleague

    8 told me that, and he brought us something to drink;

    9 that is, a Coca-Cola or something like that. And so

    10 she administered those medicines to me and I

    11 recovered. She administered antibiotics to bring down

    12 the fever, and painkillers.

    13 Q. Is this correct: that having been given some

    14 medicine, you -- was that at the end of the two- or

    15 three-day period?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. After having been given that medicine, did

    18 you gradually get better?

    19 A. Mentally, I was fully recovered, but

    20 physically, I felt very weak, very faint. I felt I

    21 could not stand on my own two feet. I felt completely

    22 rundown, exhausted.

    23 Q. I want to turn now to the 19th of May, 1992,

    24 when a number of people came to the camp, amongst whom

    25 was Dragan Veselic.



  56. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. Was Goran Jelisic there that day?

    3 A. In that circle, I mean, Dragan Veselic was in

    4 the military, but he wasn't in that same circle. There

    5 was another man that I knew rather well by sight. He

    6 used to own a restaurant. They were standing in a

    7 circle and talking so near our window that at that

    8 moment, when I looked through, I then recognised Dragan

    9 Veselic for the first time because he was turned

    10 sideways to me. I told my colleague, "Now I remember

    11 who that man is, the one who interrogated me at SUP."

    12 Then as I was telling her that, she pulled me

    13 by my arm and said, "Let us call the military. Let us

    14 try to get a military person, to discuss our situation

    15 with him, to see about us." So we both ran out into

    16 the passage and asked the man to come in so that we

    17 could talk with him. He came in, and we explained to

    18 him the situation, what was going on in the camp, and I

    19 can personally even quote it, that both I and my friend

    20 told that man, "Well, are these regular troops or is it

    21 a gang? If it is a gang that, of course, shoots at us,

    22 we don't want to go on any longer, but if you are a

    23 regular army, then treat us as human beings and behave

    24 as regular troops do," because we could not bear it any

    25 longer. We were already at the end of our tethers.



  57. 1 We both stood against the wall and said,

    2 "Here, shoot at us," and the man said, "There's no

    3 need to, and I promise you, I guarantee that it will

    4 never happen again."

    5 Q. Just give me a moment, please.

    6 A. Could I ask you for a brief rest, if

    7 possible? May I?

    8 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes, of

    9 course. I was about to propose that.

    10 We shall take 20 minutes, a break of 20

    11 minutes. Perhaps the witness will need a little bit

    12 more time. Then we shall grant her more time.

    13 Thank you.

    14 --- Recess taken at 12.20 p.m.

    15 --- On resuming at 12.38 p.m.

    16 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We can now

    17 resume the hearing. Have the accused brought in.

    18 [The accused entered court]

    19 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Greaves, in

    20 order for us to organise ourselves, about how much time

    21 do you need to complete your cross-examination,

    22 approximately?

    23 MR. GREAVES: Between twenty minutes --

    24 THE INTERPRETER: Could we have the

    25 microphone, please, Mr. Greaves?



  58. 1 MR. GREAVES: Between twenty minutes and half

    2 an hour.

    3 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Very well.

    4 MR. GREAVES:

    5 Q. Are you feeling better, Witness K?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 [Trial Chamber confers]

    8 MR. GREAVES: I'm sorry. I asked a question

    9 whilst Your Honours were conferring and the answer was

    10 given. I asked her whether she was feeling better and

    11 she said yes.

    12 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I would have

    13 asked the question. You already did it.

    14 It will be finished soon, Witness K.

    15 Please proceed, Mr. Greaves.

    16 MR. GREAVES:

    17 Q. Before the break, I was asking you about the

    18 19th of May, Witness K, and, in particular, I asked you

    19 the question whether or not Goran Jelisic was there

    20 that day.

    21 A. I cannot say whether he was in the Luka

    22 compound, but he wasn't there during that meeting

    23 between Dragan Veselic, that military person, and a

    24 third individual. He may have been present, but I did

    25 not hear his yelling, knowing what his voice is like.



  59. 1 Q. During the course of the 19th of May, having

    2 spoken with the people who had come, were you allowed

    3 out into the Luka facility, allowed out of the office?

    4 A. Yes. We were allowed to come out of the

    5 office but there were guards. The control was very

    6 strict.

    7 The officer, rather, the military person had

    8 given us his word. He guaranteed to us that there

    9 would be no more harassment, that we would be under

    10 control and supervised. So we could go out, but we

    11 were terribly afraid of going out because of Goran

    12 Jelisic, in case he was present there.

    13 Q. How long would you say that you were outside

    14 in the facility that day?

    15 A. What do you mean? Could you please clarify

    16 it?

    17 Q. Yes. I'm sorry. It was perhaps not a good

    18 question. You were able to be outside the office. How

    19 much of that day did you spend outside the office?

    20 A. Only as long as we needed to do whatever we

    21 needed to do, that is, go to the toilet.

    22 Q. I want to ask you now, please, about the

    23 period after the 19th of May, between then and your

    24 release.

    25 As far as Goran Jelisic is concerned, I



  60. 1 suggest to you, Witness K, that you did not hear him at

    2 any time between the 19th of May and the end of May at

    3 the camp or see him.

    4 A. On the 19th of May, when we talked to that

    5 military person, at that moment, I did not hear his

    6 voice --

    7 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Excuse me.

    8 Mr. Greaves, could you rephrase your question, please?

    9 I have the feeling that you did not really ask a

    10 question there.

    11 MR. GREAVES: Yes.

    12 Q. You've told us that after the 19th of May,

    13 you thought you heard Jelisic yelling from outside the

    14 camp, having been prevented from coming in. The

    15 question is this: Are you possibly mistaken about

    16 that?

    17 A. No.

    18 Q. I put it to you that you are, in fact, wrong,

    19 because he was elsewhere and not at all in Brcko in

    20 that period, between the 19th of May and the end of

    21 May.

    22 A. You know what --

    23 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] You have

    24 stunned us several times. We're not trying to confront

    25 the two answers. This is a traditional institution.



  61. 1 You ask questions. What you think about the questions

    2 you can say during your closing arguments, but this is

    3 a form of intimidation, I can tell you this right now.

    4 You have the right to think whatever you like but prove

    5 what you say. This is the last time I'm going to tell

    6 you this.

    7 MR. GREAVES: I asked that question because

    8 my learned friend, earlier today, made the observation

    9 that he wanted a specific issue put to a witness so

    10 that the witness could deal with it. That is what I

    11 have done because he's asked that that should be done.

    12 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] You're not

    13 making questions here. Ask a question. That's your

    14 role. Your role is to ask questions and it is the role

    15 of the witness to answer the questions.

    16 MR. GREAVES:

    17 Q. Witness K, I'd like --

    18 MR. GREAVES: And if we could now please go

    19 into private session.

    20 [Private session]

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)



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  67. 1 (redacted)

    2 (redacted)

    3 (redacted)

    4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.

    13 MR. NICE:

    14 Q. (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 A. (redacted)

    17 (redacted)

    18 Q. How did the doctor die, (redacted)?

    19 A. Dr. (redacted) was brought together with me the

    20 first night. He was terribly beaten. Those were not

    21 bruises; those were haematomas. I know health work,

    22 and I know what it means when your blood vessels are

    23 injured. So he had very serious haematomas. He was

    24 trampled by their feet. He was beaten up with a

    25 baton. He was battered severely in the camp.



  68. 1 I heard about his brother, that his brother

    2 really invested great effort and plenty of money to

    3 have him released. Perhaps somebody else was helping

    4 him.

    5 He spent some time in the camp with us for a

    6 while, and then they took him away, I don't know where,

    7 but he was separated from us. I don't know after how

    8 many days he was released, but I heard from my fellow

    9 workers that he was simply -- after a while, his heart

    10 broke, quite simply. He suffered from severe

    11 depression, and he was trying to contain the pain, just

    12 as I was trying to do. Whether he was simply weaker

    13 than I was, was it simply that he could not stand any

    14 more all that was happening to us and that nobody

    15 reacted to that, that nobody from the outside world

    16 reacted to it --

    17 Q. I'm going to cut you off because we don't

    18 need to go into these matters in the greatest detail.

    19 But this is the doctor who was crying when you returned

    20 or you saw women returning from the sexual assaults

    21 you've told us about? Is this the same man; yes or

    22 no? Just yes or no.

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. He died after the events and in the

    25 circumstances that you've told us about. Just yes or



  69. 1 no.

    2 A. After the exchange.

    3 Q. Yes. You were asked about bodies that you

    4 saw on the street. At a later stage, did you ever see

    5 bodies by the river?

    6 A. Yes. As we were taken to clean the houses of

    7 those lords and masters, to work for their ladies,

    8 because there were a lot of rubble and splintered glass

    9 and all that, and we went to clean that up so they

    10 could live there.

    11 It just happened that we were returning

    12 sometime in the afternoon, when the visibility was

    13 still good, and somewhere at the level of the bridge,

    14 there was a slight elevation and you could see the Sava

    15 River. I just happened to cast a look at the river,

    16 and I saw bodies floating in the river --

    17 Q. Forgive my interrupting you. Was that before

    18 or after the change in regime that was brought about on

    19 the 19th of May?

    20 A. Before.

    21 Q. So that before the 19th of May, you were

    22 being taken from time to time to Brcko to clean the

    23 houses of the Serbs or their wives; is that right?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. And one day you saw these bodies. Roughly



  70. 1 how many bodies did you see in the river, if you --

    2 A. Three or four.

    3 Q. -- can remember? If you can't remember,

    4 please don't guess.

    5 A. Three or four, because it was just a glance.

    6 I cast a look, I saw them, I got frightened, and I

    7 diverted my eyes so that the driver wouldn't notice

    8 that I had been looking in that direction.

    9 Q. You were asked about the incident where you

    10 say that you saw a number of men standing against the

    11 wall and you heard an instruction given to prepare the

    12 ammunition and then to fire, and you were asked whether

    13 you were wrong about saying you saw anyone fall to the

    14 ground or not.

    15 Just tell me this: Did you hear one gunshot

    16 or more than one gunshot after the instruction to fire?

    17 A. More than one.

    18 Q. Is that many more or just one or two?

    19 A. More -- not one or two. More than that.

    20 Q. Thank you. You were asked whether, as a

    21 result of what had happened to you at the beginning of

    22 your detention in Luka, you weren't able to take in the

    23 details of what was going on. Were you able to take in

    24 the details of what was going on, Witness K?

    25 A. Could you just clarify this point? What do



  71. 1 you mean by "what was going on" or when I was moving

    2 about?

    3 Q. I think it was being suggested to you or

    4 asked of you whether or that, by reason of what had

    5 happened in the very first place, you simply couldn't

    6 remember and you couldn't take in the various things

    7 that were being done in your presence. So you were

    8 really being asked, "Well, is your memory entirely

    9 unreliable?"

    10 That's what was being raised with you, and I

    11 want you to tell the Judges whether you were able to

    12 take in what you saw and whether what you told the

    13 Judges is the truth.

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. You've been asked about your identification

    16 of the man called "Adolf." Remind the Judges: How

    17 much of his name did you learn at Luka? Was it just

    18 his first name or was it both of his names that you

    19 learned at Luka?

    20 A. He introduced himself as Goran Jelisic; in

    21 other words, he said to us that he represented the

    22 "Serb Adolf," the "Adolf" of the Serb people, and that

    23 it was his duty to cleanse the Muslims.

    24 Q. I'll ask you to repeat that. So he gave you

    25 the name "Goran Jelisic."



  72. 1 In your time was there one or more than one

    2 man using the name "Goran Jelisic" or using the name

    3 "Adolf"?

    4 A. Only one.

    5 Q. You've been asked about a description of a

    6 young man, blonde, up to 30 years old, with blue eyes,

    7 and an icy look. The rest of the description that you

    8 gave of this man, which was summarised, is as follows:

    9 "He was the most fearful man I ever saw. He

    10 has no conscience. He is the king of fear. He was the

    11 manager of the camp, the boss, and he pushed other

    12 perpetrators to be more fearful."

    13 Then you went on to give the description that

    14 you've been asked questions about.

    15 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, I object to the

    16 admissibility of this question. Part of the

    17 cross-examination was about the physical description

    18 only of the man. The issue went to the issue of

    19 identity, not as to his personal characteristics in

    20 terms of behaviour, and in my submission, it is

    21 improper for these questions to be put.

    22 MR. NICE: I resist that completely. It's

    23 wholly appropriate for a complete passage of

    24 identifying to be identified for the witness. It was

    25 only identified in part. What I read out is the



  73. 1 passage referred to in its proper context. The

    2 question I desire to ask is related to that passage and

    3 to the identification of the person she there

    4 identifies.

    5 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] The objection

    6 is overruled because you yourself, Mr. Greaves, you are

    7 calling into question the witness's ability to make

    8 identifications. It's true that you decided to ask

    9 questions on physical aspects such as the colour of the

    10 eyes, which are somewhat more complex to describe

    11 within the context where the witness was, but this is a

    12 point which deals with other identifying possibilities

    13 of Goran Jelisic by the witness.

    14 You can ask your question, Mr. Nice.

    15 MR. NICE:

    16 Q. The description of yours that I've read out,

    17 who was the man you were there describing?

    18 A. Goran Jelisic, the "Serb Adolf," as he had

    19 called himself.

    20 Q. You were asked specific questions about your

    21 ability to recognise that man or to point him out.

    22 When you came into this courtroom a couple of days ago,

    23 were you then in a position to recognise the man or

    24 not?

    25 A. Yes.



  74. 1 Q. How long --

    2 A. Very well.

    3 Q. How long did it take you, from the moment

    4 that the court convened, to recognise the man Goran

    5 Jelisic?

    6 A. Not even a second.

    7 Q. Will you please now point him out to the

    8 Judges?

    9 A. I like to wish his sight. I am waiting seven

    10 years for that.

    11 Q. Do you have any doubts about that being the

    12 man who was in the room when the beatings were going

    13 on, that being the man who introduced himself as

    14 Jelisic?

    15 A. No.

    16 MR. NICE: I have no other re-examination of

    17 this witness.

    18 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    19 Mr. Nice. Let me now turn to Judge Riad.

    20 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Mr. President.

    21 Good afternoon, Witness K. I'm sorry not to

    22 call you with your lady's name, just a letter, so that

    23 nobody would recognise you.

    24 I'm trying to understand a little bit more

    25 some of your statements. You mentioned that Jelisic



  75. 1 declared that he was the man responsible for everything

    2 happening. I'll try to quote it exactly: "That he was

    3 the man in charge and nothing can be done without his

    4 permission."

    5 Now, that was his declaration, but on the

    6 ground what were the facts? Did the facts corroborate

    7 this declaration or was it just somebody boasting about

    8 his power and, in fact, it was not so strong?

    9 A. I believe that this was not boasting at all.

    10 That was my own perception as well, and I tried to

    11 remain capable of perception. He enjoyed killing. He

    12 enjoyed showing his force, showing that he was God; in

    13 other words, that he was our judge, that he decided on

    14 our fate, and that he had all the strength and all the

    15 responsibility for everything that was going on in that

    16 camp, and that he was in charge of everything that was

    17 going on in that camp.

    18 JUDGE RIAD: So in other words, the other

    19 people who were committing atrocities were acting

    20 according to his will? Nobody was acting independently

    21 or having a different policy of torture or of killing

    22 or that sort of thing; it was all under his auspices?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 JUDGE RIAD: Also among the declarations that

    25 you mentioned of Jelisic when he introduced himself as



  76. 1 the "Serb Adolf," he announced that he wanted to stop

    2 any proliferation of Muslims, and these are almost your

    3 words: "And cleanse the room for the Serbs," which

    4 means -- now, "Cleanse the room for the Serbs" --

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. -- could be through extermination; killing,

    7 some of the killings you mentioned; and, of course,

    8 there are other methods. There could be deportation,

    9 carrying them out to other places where they can join

    10 what is happening in some parts of the world.

    11 So was deportation also included or was it

    12 only extermination?

    13 A. Extermination. He even pointed out, in

    14 connection with extermination, that Serbs could have

    15 ten houses apiece, that they could expand, that it was

    16 their territory.

    17 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice, you

    18 may be seated.

    19 JUDGE RIAD: Now, my last question is

    20 concerning what happened when this high officer came

    21 and you presented a complaint about the bad treatment

    22 and he promised there would be a change, and, in fact,

    23 there was a change; there was better treatment.

    24 Nevertheless, you mentioned that Jelisic came and tried

    25 to dash into the rooms to finish you up, and he called



  77. 1 you vipers, if I remember.

    2 Is this, according to your understanding --

    3 A. Yes.

    4 JUDGE RIAD: -- that this kind of policy was

    5 not an execution of a general policy but it was

    6 Jelisic's policy himself? This extermination was his

    7 own policy, even if his superiors didn't want it? That

    8 was almost the impression we had.

    9 A. You know what? I had very brief contact with

    10 this gentleman in uniform. He gave us a guarantee, and

    11 that guarantee was maintained. I do not know what

    12 Jelisic did afterwards. I had only one contact after

    13 that, when he dashed into our room and when he wanted

    14 to kill us. I cannot claim what he did; I can only say

    15 for sure exactly what he said, and he acted in

    16 accordance with what he had said.

    17 JUDGE RIAD: What he said at that moment when

    18 he came in or before?

    19 A. Before. Before.

    20 JUDGE RIAD: Before.

    21 A. Before.

    22 JUDGE RIAD: So he did not even take into

    23 consideration what this high officer promised you?

    24 A. As he was trying to get in to kill us, he

    25 expressed the wish to kill, to exterminate us, he



  78. 1 said. He said that if he ever saw us anywhere, that we

    2 were his.

    3 JUDGE RIAD: What do you call "us"? Who are

    4 "us," women or all the people?

    5 A. "Us," the persons who were in that room. Us

    6 women; we who had made this objection to the military

    7 man.

    8 JUDGE RIAD: I see. Thank you very much.

    9 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

    10 A. Thank you.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Judge

    12 Rodrigues?

    13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    14 Mr. President.

    15 Good afternoon, Witness K.

    16 A. Thank you. Thank you.

    17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I have two

    18 questions to ask you. My first is that we know that

    19 Mr. Jelisic did not participate, nor was he present

    20 during the sexual assaults. My question is to know

    21 whether Mr. Jelisic knew that these rapes were being

    22 perpetrated, if you have any information which would

    23 allow you to conclude that Mr. Jelisic knew this was

    24 going on.

    25 A. Since he had pointed out that he was in



  79. 1 charge and that he had to know about everything that

    2 was going on in the camp, I believe that he did know

    3 what was going on in the camp.

    4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] My other

    5 question, Witness K, is this: If today Mr. Jelisic,

    6 among other things, because of the colour of his hair,

    7 if today he had blonde hair, would it be possible for

    8 you to recognise him?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    11 Witness K.

    12 A. Thank you.

    13 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Witness K, I

    14 have no specific questions to ask you. You have been

    15 here for many days now in order to be subjected again

    16 to these hearings, to tell us everything you told us,

    17 to speak about your great sufferings.

    18 One thing I wanted to say before you went

    19 back home is during these hearings, did you have the

    20 feeling that you were able to say everything that you

    21 wanted to say? Were you able, through the questions

    22 that you were asked by the Judges, the Prosecution, by

    23 the Defence, did you have the feeling that you were

    24 able to express yourself as you thought you would be

    25 able to when you came before this International



  80. 1 Tribunal? If not, if you have anything you wish to

    2 add, do not hesitate to do so now.

    3 THE WITNESS: Yes. I would like to say that

    4 I felt a great duty as a person who worked in the field

    5 of health for so many years, as I helped people, that

    6 it came as a shock to me to encounter such persons. I

    7 could not have imagined that such people existed.

    8 It was a profound feeling of conscience that

    9 compelled me to come to this court to express my own

    10 pain and the pain of the other people who suffered and

    11 who were killed in such a brutal way. It is on my

    12 conscience to convey their pain and suffering too.

    13 We had quite a few things that we shared, and

    14 that is why I came to convey this; although, it seems

    15 to me that I could not have conveyed everything. I

    16 perhaps did not convey the depth of this pain, the

    17 intensity of this pain, but I did, to the best of my

    18 ability.

    19 I was afraid. I also had stage fright here,

    20 but I feel this profound grief for those people who

    21 were killed in such a brutal way and who were

    22 mistreated in such a way.

    23 I would also like to send a message to the

    24 Judges and to the entire world that I hope that this

    25 genocide does not happen to anyone ever again and that



  81. 1 it is a terrible thing that could happen to any

    2 people.

    3 I am not a racist. I do not distinguish

    4 between people according to the colour of their skin or

    5 religion. I can only distinguish between people in

    6 terms of whether they are criminals or whether they

    7 commit good deeds.

    8 I tried to muster the strength to come here

    9 for seven years, to face justice and to face crime. I

    10 want that crime to be condemned, to condemn it to the

    11 extent as grave as it was, nothing more, nothing less.

    12 I want it to be well balanced. I want the condemnation

    13 to be equal to the crime committed.

    14 I want to say that I am not blaming Goran

    15 Jelisic. He has made himself guilty through the things

    16 he did. I came here to tell the truth, and I want the

    17 souls of the people who were killed to rest in peace.

    18 I want my soul to be at peace. Perhaps Goran Jelisic's

    19 conscience will awaken and he will think about all the

    20 things that he did.

    21 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We thank you.

    22 You have shown a great deal of courage, and, of course,

    23 we hope that you leave here more peaceful than you did

    24 when you arrived in this judicial institution. After

    25 that, in their souls and in their conscience, the



  82. 1 Judges will come to the decision as to the exact

    2 responsibility.

    3 THE WITNESS: Yes. One more thing. I'm

    4 sorry.

    5 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We wish you

    6 Godspeed back to your beautiful country and hope that

    7 you will find serenity and peace there. Thank you.

    8 Please do not move. You're still under protective

    9 measures.

    10 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I think that we

    12 can adjourn the session, and we will resume on Monday

    13 at 2.00.

    14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

    15 at 1.24 p.m., to be reconvened on

    16 Monday, the 13th day of September, 1999,

    17 at 2 p.m.

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