1. 1 Tuesday, 21st September, 1999

    2 [Open session]

    3 --- Upon commencing at 2.08 p.m.

    4 [The accused entered court]

    5 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Good afternoon,

    6 everybody. Mr. Registrar, will you please tell us

    7 which case this is?

    8 First, I should like to say good afternoon to

    9 the interpreters. I hope they can hear me, all the

    10 booths. Good afternoon. Also good afternoon to all

    11 the parties present here and the accused.

    12 Now I should also like to ask Mr. Nice to

    13 take the floor and tell us now what it is that the

    14 Judges have to hear from you regarding your case.

    15 Thank you.

    16 MR. NICE: We are in the closing stages of

    17 the Prosecution case. There are two substantive

    18 witnesses remaining: the witness who deals with the

    19 interviews of the defendant, and the Witness John

    20 Ralston who deals with a number of matters and who will

    21 come at the end.

    22 First, there's an argument on admissibility

    23 that my learned friend, Mr. Greaves, wishes to raise in

    24 relation to photographs. There are small bundles of

    25 the proposed photographs available for you, and I hope



  2. 1 they've been provided -- oh, they're coming.

    2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation]

    3 [No interpretation].

    4 MR. NICE: As this is a matter of

    5 admissibility, I should ask that the session be

    6 temporarily private because, of course, if you rule the

    7 documents inadmissible, it would be inappropriate for

    8 the public to have heard about them.

    9 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

    10 Yes, a private session. Yes. Right.

    11 [Private session]

    12 (redacted)

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  10. 1 (redacted)

    2 (redacted)

    3 (redacted)

    4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)

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    13 (redacted)

    14 [Open session]

    15 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Very well.

    16 Mr. Nice, please continue.

    17 MR. NICE: The photographs can be agreed for

    18 what they are, in light of the ruling, or they can be

    19 produced by one witness who I am calling in any event,

    20 and Mr. Basham, if that becomes necessary.

    21 I'll return to those later, having discussed

    22 the matter with Mr. Greaves.

    23 We turn to the interviews. The interviews

    24 have presented a difficulty as to how they should be

    25 presented.



  11. 1 Before I come to that and explain what I'm

    2 proposing, I should say that Mr. Basham, pursuant to

    3 the Court's order, is in court as the officer or the

    4 investigator dealing with the case, but he is one of

    5 the two investigators who was present at the interviews

    6 of the defendant, and it may be, if there's anything

    7 contentious in the interviews, that it would be

    8 appropriate for him to withdraw now, before the officer

    9 who is going to give evidence of the interviews comes

    10 in. On the other hand, if there's nothing contentious

    11 known to my learned friend that's going to arise in the

    12 cross-examination, I would ask that he be allowed to

    13 stay, because he is the continuing investigator in the

    14 case.

    15 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Greaves.

    16 MR. GREAVES: Although for no particular

    17 reason, I think it would be better, just in case

    18 anything should arise unexpectedly, that he should go

    19 out in any event, rather than there being any specific

    20 reason for it. One knows that sometimes things can

    21 happen that are unexpected. It's really just a

    22 safety-first issue really, I think, that I'm raising.

    23 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice.

    24 MR. NICE: I'm entirely in the Court's

    25 hands.



  12. 1 [Trial Chamber confers]

    2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Basham

    3 should go out.

    4 [Counsel withdrew]

    5 MR. NICE: The Court has been provided with

    6 bundles of the interviews separated out as to the dates

    7 of the individual interviews and, so far as the

    8 President's copy of the interviews is concerned, marked

    9 with green and blue tags. The only reason that Judge

    10 Riad's and Judge Rodrigues' versions haven't been

    11 similarly marked is simply want of time.

    12 Those tags represent, in total, the pages

    13 that the Prosecution and Defence, in combination -- I

    14 trust you have one --

    15 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I am very

    16 sorry, Mr. Nice, but the Judges, who do not quite know

    17 the programme, wish that they could have -- it was said

    18 last week we were given these folders, but I believe

    19 that we should try to find these documents for the

    20 Judges, or perhaps we should adjourn for a couple of

    21 minutes until the Judges are provided with this

    22 folder. Mr. Nice, I think that would be better.

    23 Yes, it is quite true that you provided a

    24 very complete document, but we did not know that this

    25 afternoon we would be dealing with this folder, so I



  13. 1 think we should adjourn.

    2 I shall ask my secretary to look for these

    3 documents, but perhaps it would be faster if I go

    4 there. Excuse me for this short misunderstanding.

    5 We shall make a very brief adjournment, and

    6 as good pupils, we shall have with us all the aids, and

    7 then we shall be able to proceed. Thank you very

    8 much. So I shall go and look for that.

    9 --- Recess taken at 2.35 p.m.

    10 --- On resuming at 2.44 p.m.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] The hearing is

    12 resumed. Please be seated.

    13 [The accused entered court]

    14 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Right. We are

    15 now ready because we now have all the documents with

    16 us.

    17 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I trust that you have

    18 the version that has the green and blue stickers down

    19 the side, and those reveal what it was originally the

    20 intention of both parties collectively to have

    21 presented to you in detail. Green represents a place

    22 to start in the interview and blue represents a place

    23 to stop.

    24 I have added up, with the officer who's going

    25 to deal with these interviews, how long it would take



  14. 1 to read all those passages out in English at a

    2 reasonably slow speed, and my forecast is that it would

    3 take longer than you like, considerably; probably five

    4 hours, something like that.

    5 What I propose, and I hope this is acceptable

    6 to you, is to call the officer, to get him to give a

    7 summary of the interviews that took place and the

    8 setting in which they took place, to make some

    9 summarising remarks about features of the interview and

    10 then to get him to deal, first, in an entirely summary

    11 way, with the very first interview, which has got no

    12 stickers, blue or green, on it, to deal reasonably

    13 extensively with the passages marked by the green and

    14 blue stickers in the first interview of the 4th of

    15 June, because that covers a lot of important matters

    16 and will be of value to the Chamber, and it may be that

    17 there will come a time when we will be able to review

    18 whether the Chamber wishes the exercise of the reading

    19 in detail to be continued and completed, or whether it

    20 may be possible to deal with things in some other more

    21 summary way.

    22 Can I say that I've had a request from the

    23 Defence that there may be private sessions for -- it's

    24 not for me to say. They've asked that I should ask for

    25 private sessions for certain passages of the evidence,



  15. 1 and there would be reasons for our seeking private

    2 sessions for certain passages of the evidence.

    3 Can I suggest, with that in mind, that we

    4 don't lay the document on the ELMO, because all too

    5 possibly the relevant names or facts that would be the

    6 subject of an application to hold a private session

    7 would be displayed to the public before anybody picked

    8 on the point and had gone into private session? So can

    9 I ask that they're simply dealt with by the officer

    10 having the volume in front of him and read out by him?

    11 If that seems to be an acceptable way to go

    12 ahead, then I'd ask for the officer to be called in.

    13 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] No objections?

    14 Let us have the witness brought in, please.

    15 [The witness entered court]

    16 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Will you please

    17 give us your full name, the date of your birth, your

    18 current occupation, and then you will take the solemn

    19 declaration, and I will say no more at this moment.

    20 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, my full name is

    21 Bernard Patrick O'Donnell. My date of birth is the

    22 16th of September, 1962, and I am an investigator with

    23 the Office of the Prosecutor with the International

    24 Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia.

    25 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Will you now



  16. 1 make the solemn declaration, please?

    2 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    3 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

    4 truth.

    5 WITNESS: BERNARD PATRICK O'DONNELL

    6 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    7 Mr. O'Donnell. You may be seated. You are called by

    8 the Prosecution. Will you please sit down?

    9 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I do not need

    11 to explain to you the procedure because you all know

    12 it, and I will now give the floor to the Prosecution

    13 and then to the Defence.

    14 Mr. Nice?

    15 Examined by Mr. Nice:

    16 Q. Mr. O'Donnell, were you for some time the

    17 investigator dealing with this case and effectively in

    18 charge of it?

    19 A. Yes, I was.

    20 Q. Did you subsequently relinquish that

    21 responsibility to Mr. Basham, you turning your

    22 attention to other cases?

    23 A. Yes, that's correct.

    24 Q. However, in the role you held and, indeed,

    25 later on, I think, when Mr. Basham had already arrived,



  17. 1 did you conduct some interviews with the defendant,

    2 Goran Jelisic?

    3 A. That's correct. Your Honours, we conducted a

    4 series of interviews with Mr. Jelisic.

    5 Q. Do you produce -- and I think it's already

    6 been given a number -- a binder --

    7 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice and

    8 the witness, will you please slow down? I do not know

    9 whether you will speak faster than this or not, but

    10 will you please bear in mind that the interpreters have

    11 also to do their work? Thank you.

    12 MR. NICE: My apologies to the interpreters

    13 for forgetting that we're speaking in the same language

    14 and, therefore, fall foul of the temptation to go too

    15 fast.

    16 Q. The interviews, Mr. O'Donnell -- I can't

    17 remember how many in all, but there were several of

    18 them -- were conducted over what overall period of

    19 time?

    20 A. The first interview was conducted on the 25th

    21 of February, 1998, there were in total nine interviews

    22 conducted, and the last interview was conducted on the

    23 24th of July, 1998.

    24 Q. Where were they conducted?

    25 A. They were conducted here at the ICTY.



  18. 1 Q. Before we turn to the detail or even the

    2 summary of any of these interviews, can you help the

    3 Chamber in relation to cooperation of the defendant?

    4 First, is it the case that the Office of the

    5 Prosecutor has said from time to time that it will

    6 report on cooperation of the defendant to the Chamber?

    7 A. Yes, that's correct. I would like to make a

    8 couple of points on cooperation.

    9 Firstly, Mr. Jelisic took part in a total of

    10 nine formal interviews. He voluntarily took part in

    11 those interviews, some of which were quite lengthy. In

    12 total, approximately 25 to 30 hours of interviews were

    13 recorded on videotape.

    14 During the interviews, he gave information

    15 about crimes and admitted to the crimes -- to the

    16 individual murders, and he also gave information about

    17 other matters. To that extent, he cooperated. I

    18 cannot say, though, that he fully cooperated. He was

    19 very definite about the matters that he would talk

    20 about and when. It was, at times, difficult to get

    21 specific information from him, and he often became

    22 agitated when asked for further information or where

    23 inconsistencies were highlighted.

    24 Whilst Mr. Jelisic gave us information about

    25 the crimes, he presented us with what I believe is a



  19. 1 very sanitised version of events, very different to

    2 information that was given to us by witnesses and

    3 inconsistent in itself. A lot of what Mr. Jelisic told

    4 us is not believable. I believe that Mr. Jelisic used

    5 the interviews as an opportunity to present his actions

    6 in the best possible light.

    7 Q. At the time -- I'm sorry. We'll leave a

    8 break, which we must do, between question and answer.

    9 At the time of these interviews, had witness

    10 statements been served on the Defence?

    11 A. Yes, they had. A number of witness

    12 statements had been given to the Defence.

    13 Q. Did the defendant agree, at any stage, to be

    14 interviewed about the charge of genocide?

    15 A. He did agree that there would be interviews

    16 on genocide, but the agreement was that we would cover

    17 the individual murders first and then move on to

    18 discussion on the crime of genocide. And at that

    19 point, we intended to put to him a number of

    20 inconsistencies in his story, along with

    21 inconsistencies between the story that he gave us and

    22 that told to us by witnesses. However, before we could

    23 do that, I was advised by Mr. Jelisic that he would no

    24 longer take part in the interviews.

    25 Q. Finally, on the topic of information provided



  20. 1 by him touching on other people, without any names

    2 being given, what value, if any, was that information

    3 provided by him?

    4 A. Mr. Jelisic gave us other information apart

    5 from information relating just to his crimes. The

    6 information that he gave is of limited use, firstly

    7 because it is not information, in the most part, which

    8 was new to us, and, secondly, because of the number of

    9 inconsistencies in his testimony.

    10 Q. On inconsistencies, because the Chamber may

    11 not go through the totality of the interviews through

    12 you, as a witness, what particular topics were there in

    13 respect of which he gave differing accounts?

    14 A. There are a number of broad areas that there

    15 are inconsistencies in his version of events.

    16 Mr. Jelisic claimed that he was forced to

    17 commit the murders that he did and that he killed

    18 people, fearing that if he did not, then he himself

    19 would be killed. He claimed that he stayed in Brcko

    20 because he was told to, and again he feared that if he

    21 disobeyed orders, he would have been killed. He

    22 claimed that he only killed people that he was told to

    23 and that he never killed anyone of his own free will.

    24 In fact, he said that where he had the opportunity of

    25 not killing someone, then he didn't kill them, and he



  21. 1 saw that as a personal triumph.

    2 There are a number of inconsistencies in his

    3 claims on those points, and I believe that his claims

    4 are not true.

    5 Q. In a sense, your belief on the matter is not

    6 to the point; it's just identifying the different

    7 stories.

    8 A. My apologies.

    9 Q. That's all right.

    10 A. There are a number of inconsistencies on

    11 those points.

    12 Q. Did he also give an account of the reasons

    13 for leaving Brcko, and was that one that was always the

    14 same or not?

    15 A. There are differences in his version of

    16 events and, again, inconsistencies in his claim that he

    17 had to stay in Brcko. Would you like me to go on

    18 with --

    19 Q. No, I think that's enough, by way of a

    20 headline, for the Chamber, and we'll now move, please,

    21 to the interviews themselves.

    22 The first one was on the 25th/26th of

    23 February. On this occasion, you were accompanied by

    24 whom as interviewer?

    25 A. The interview on the 25th of February was



  22. 1 with myself and Investigator Martina Fietz.

    2 MR. NICE: Those names can be found on page 1

    3 of this interview, and we do not propose to lead

    4 matters in detail from this interview.

    5 Q. Can you, Mr. O'Donnell, summarise, and really

    6 summarise quite shortly, what was covered in this

    7 interview, should the Chamber want to look at it in

    8 detail at a later stage or at any stage?

    9 A. The interview on the 25th of February, along

    10 with the interview on the 26th of February, covered the

    11 background of Mr. Jelisic -- his childhood, his

    12 upbringing and his education -- in great detail.

    13 Q. Did he give any explanation for how he came

    14 to be involved in the things alleged against him?

    15 A. Mr. Jelisic told of the illness suffered by

    16 his mother when he was very young, the limited time

    17 that he spent with his father, the death of his

    18 grandmother, and sickness in his childhood which he

    19 said initially led to him being not a good student.

    20 Later, in early high school, he said he

    21 associated with, as he put it, bad friends -- smoking,

    22 and he started drinking alcohol.

    23 Later, he was married and separated from his

    24 wife, a point he said caused him a lot of sadness, and

    25 he said that he began to spend enormous amounts of



  23. 1 money in different bars, ordering sad songs because of

    2 the woman who left him, and this led him to become

    3 involved in criminal activity, being fraud.

    4 Q. Just a matter of detail for the Chamber to

    5 have in mind. At the time of or shortly before these

    6 events, had he, as is revealed in the interviews, been

    7 before the courts locally?

    8 A. Yes, he had.

    9 Q. Was a prison sentence imposed or not?

    10 A. A prison sentence was imposed. He appealed

    11 that sentence, and the sentence was later confirmed.

    12 Q. He makes reference to that in the course of

    13 the interviews?

    14 A. Yes, he does.

    15 Q. Can we turn to the interview of the 4th of

    16 June?

    17 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I'm going to deal

    18 with some of this in detail, and I hope that the speed

    19 I am speaking at is acceptable to the interpreters. If

    20 not, I'm sure I will be corrected.

    21 One way of dealing with interviews of this

    22 sort, to assist the Tribunal and to make them a little

    23 less difficult to consume, is for me to read the

    24 answers of the defendant, for the officer to read the

    25 questions of the interrogators; and provided we do that



  24. 1 at a sensible speed, it's not then necessary for us

    2 regularly to say, "Did he say this?" and "Did you say

    3 that?" So if that course is acceptable to the

    4 Tribunal.

    5 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Well, yes, of

    6 course it is agreeable. But you really deem it

    7 necessary to read the whole interview?

    8 MR. NICE: As I've indicated, although in

    9 this first interview I will read quite a lot of the

    10 marked passages indicated by the green and blue

    11 markers, I think by the second interview and certainly

    12 by the later interviews, it will be necessary to read

    13 or to take you to other smaller portions. But the

    14 first interview, I think, does contain a lot of

    15 material that will be of assistance.

    16 Q. So if we turn to the interview of the 4th of

    17 June, Mr. O'Donnell, page 1 shows the people present,

    18 and between pages 1 to 4, the detailed preparations for

    19 the interview and the careful establishment of consent

    20 and so on is gone through; is that correct?

    21 A. Yes, that's correct.

    22 Q. At page 5, and I trust that -- just give me

    23 one minute.

    24 [Prosecution counsel confer]

    25 MR. NICE: Yes. I understand that the booths



  25. 1 all have copies.

    2 I'm so sorry.

    3 [Trial Chamber confers]

    4 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes.

    5 Mr. Registrar, are you paying attention? For

    6 the record, you have to mention the pages and also the

    7 counts. And the document, is it also mentioned?

    8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Yes. It was

    9 distributed already.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Did you write

    11 numbers from 1 to 17, and each one of them corresponds

    12 to one of the fragments?

    13 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Yes. So it

    14 is 66, this is Exhibit 66, and it goes from 1 to 17.

    15 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes. Go on.

    16 Please proceed.

    17 THE REGISTRAR: Now, excuse me. No, it goes

    18 from 1 to 14. Sorry.

    19 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I discover that a

    20 small technical problem has developed, in that the

    21 versions of the interviews provided to the

    22 interpreters' booths on Friday may have been mislaid.

    23 Ms. Reynders, our ever-helpful case manager,

    24 is going to see what happened to them, because they

    25 were provided last week. But if it's acceptable to the



  26. 1 booths, I'll carry on speaking at this sort of speed

    2 until they are found.

    3 THE INTERPRETER: The English booth has its

    4 copy.

    5 MR. NICE: Thank you very much.

    6 Q. Page 5 then, please, and if you would like to

    7 pick it up with the first question by you.

    8 A. On line 4; is that correct?

    9 Q. Yes.

    10 [As read]

    11 A. I said, "Let's start with your arrival in

    12 Brcko. Can you tell me when you arrived in Brcko,

    13 please?"

    14 Q. "I arrived in Brcko on the last day of April

    15 '92, so I don't know it was 30th of April or 31st of

    16 April. I don't know how many days April has, but the

    17 last day of April."

    18 A. "Why did you go to Brcko?"

    19 Q. "I was brought to Brcko. Now I don't know how

    20 to explain this. First we were gathered by TO members,

    21 TO members of the Bijeljina TO. We were gathered in

    22 front of the TO building in Bijeljina. You can ask

    23 questions."

    24 A. "Okay. Can you give me some background to

    25 how that came about, how you came to go to Brcko with



  27. 1 the TO, please?"

    2 Q. "On that day, around noon, we were at a

    3 funeral in the village of Brodac near Bijeljina. It

    4 was the funeral of Alexander Sasapopovic, who had

    5 committed suicide by shooting himself from a handgun.

    6 At the funeral were present some young men, a group of

    7 young men that I knew from Bijeljina. Out of that

    8 group, a young man whom I knew called me and said that

    9 Major Blogoje Gavrilovic was there, Major, and that he

    10 had something to offer, some kind of deal. When I

    11 approached the group, when I approached the group,

    12 Gavrilovic told me to be in front of the TO building at

    13 4.00 p.m. in civilian clothes and to have my uniform in

    14 a plastic bag. Already there I learned that there was

    15 a plan that they were not -- that they were going to go

    16 to Brcko and that there were not many Serbs in Brcko,

    17 and that's why a group from Bijeljina had to go there.

    18 Sometime before 4.00, I arrived in front of the TO

    19 building in Bijeljina, where there were roughly 25

    20 young men that I knew from before, most of them. We

    21 were told that we would be transported in civilian

    22 vehicles to the sugar-processing plant in Obaska near

    23 Bijeljina. In the administration building of this

    24 factory, of this plant, there was a reconnaissance unit

    25 stationed whose commander was precisely this Major



  28. 1 Gavrilovic. We arrived in two four-wheel drives,

    2 Russian, Lada Niva, and there was one ordinary Lada and

    3 one ordinary Zastava 101 car. These two vehicles, Lada

    4 Niva were property of the TO in the Bijelina TO. When

    5 we gathered at the sugar processing plant, there were

    6 more soldiers in camouflaged uniforms. We were then

    7 told why we were going to Brcko, what we would do there

    8 and what the definitive object of our going there was.

    9 We were then told briefly that on the 1st of May, in

    10 the morning, the bridge would be blown up and that

    11 after that the war would start and that we would be

    12 given further instructions in the Serbian Orthodox

    13 Church in Brcko where Crisis Staff of Brcko would meet

    14 us; of the municipality of Brcko would meet us. I

    15 don't exactly know what time it was when we set off,

    16 but I believe that we arrived roughly around 8.00 to

    17 the -- in the Serbian Orthodox Church, which is the

    18 Srpska Varos Serbian part of Brcko. When we arrived in

    19 front of the church, the entrance, we saw there roughly

    20 70 men in uniform. Ninety, sorry, mistake seventy

    21 armed men about 90 per cent of them were in civilian

    22 clothes."

    23 MR. NICE: Can we go into private session for

    24 what follows, please?

    25 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, we are in private



  29. 1 session.

    2 [Private session]

    3 (redacted)

    4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 (redacted)

    17 (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)



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    13 page 2095 redacted private session

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    13 page 2096 redacted private session

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  32. 1 (redacted)

    2 (redacted)

    3 (redacted)

    4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

    9 [Open session]

    10 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] But to avoid

    11 this coming and going from and into private sessions, I

    12 should -- because we all have the text in front of us,

    13 and when you say -- instead of saying "family

    14 so-and-so," perhaps you could say "family X" or "family

    15 Y," because it is simpler perhaps than constantly

    16 switching in and out of private sessions. If you have

    17 a whole passage which concerns a particular family,

    18 then we shall go into private session. I'm simply

    19 trying to simplify matters as much as possible.

    20 MR. NICE: I'm very grateful. I will pursue

    21 that course and probably miss out nearly all names on

    22 one side or the other, and that will save time, I

    23 think, as well. I pick it up at the top of page 8.

    24 Q. "There were several lists because there were

    25 several formations. Already people had arrived from



  33. 1 Serbia and what I had heard is that many people who had

    2 been on this list had already been killed a day or two

    3 before the war had started at night in their homes."

    4 A. "Okay. You said that the people on the list

    5 were, as they were referred to 'Ustasha,' and others

    6 had put up people in the town, were there any other

    7 people on the lists?"

    8 Q. "People who financed and people who procured

    9 weapons for them. People who knew in advance what was

    10 going to happen."

    11 A. "Were there any others mentioned such as

    12 politicians, academics, business figures?"

    13 Q. "Yes, I was given a list myself; and yes

    14 these were prominent people, that's the only way to

    15 describe them."

    16 A. "How many people were on the list that you

    17 were given?"

    18 Q. "Twenty to twenty-three, twenty-five

    19 maximum."

    20 A. "Were they all men or were they men and

    21 women?"

    22 Q. "On the list there were only men. On my list

    23 there were only men."

    24 A. "Who gave you that list?"

    25 Q. "Yes, we'll go on to that question. That



  34. 1 night when we arrived I was not then given a list, we

    2 were just shown a list and they were then mentioning

    3 certain families that were considered to be the most

    4 extremist. We were told about the Ljuca family. For

    5 instance here, who's a witness for the prosecution ..."

    6 I'll leave a [blank]. If this is acceptable, if I use

    7 the word "[blank]" whenever I miss a name out, it may

    8 be easier to follow because if we start --

    9 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes. Just do

    10 not mention the surname. Just do not mention names, if

    11 you can avoid that. Of course, if there is a dispute,

    12 if it is a matter for contention, then we shall go into

    13 private session.

    14 MR. NICE:

    15 Q. "For instance here, who's a witness for the

    16 Prosecution, [blank], who was supposed to be killed.

    17 Families Ramic --"

    18 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Very good.

    19 Fine. Thank you.

    20 MR. NICE:

    21 Q. "-- and Bukvic, these were the most wanted

    22 families as far as I remember."

    23 A. "Can you go on to the next morning and what

    24 happened then, please?"

    25 Q. "We were woken up by the head of the



  35. 1 household and we had coffee and plum brandy. Before

    2 half past four and five o'clock, we heard the first

    3 large explosion, and then five, ten minutes later,

    4 another one. So then the head of the household told us

    5 that the first bridge that had been blown up was the

    6 bridge in the centre of Brcko which was connecting

    7 Brcko to Republic of Croatia, in fact, to the place

    8 called Gunja, and that the second explosion was at the

    9 railway bridge which was also connecting Brcko to

    10 Republic of Croatia, and we learned which formations

    11 had carried out the mining of the bridge."

    12 A. "Which formations were responsible for

    13 that?"

    14 Q. "The Red Berets."

    15 MR. NICE: I pause to offer to the Court and

    16 perhaps to the Defence cutting out that long answer

    17 from being read and to move straight on to the next

    18 question. Unless anybody wants the detail, it doesn't

    19 touch precisely on our topic.

    20 Q. Can you read the next question, please,

    21 putting a "blank" in for the name?

    22 A. "Did you see [blank] in Brcko?"

    23 Q. "No. I heard which were the places where he

    24 had gone to and who he met."

    25 A. "Okay. You mentioned that you took with you



  36. 1 from Bijelina a uniform. What uniform did you have?"

    2 Q. "Some people had ordinary olive grey and some

    3 people had camouflage but the reason is so that we

    4 would not be noticed, and when we arrived that's why

    5 our uniforms were in bags."

    6 A. "What uniform did you have?"

    7 Q. "I had a camouflage. I had been given a

    8 camouflage uniform at the sugar processing plant."

    9 A. "You did not have a uniform before you

    10 arrived there; is that correct?"

    11 Q. "No."

    12 A. "Okay. Were you issued with a weapon at that

    13 time?"

    14 Q. "Now, I had a rifle from the Bijelina war and

    15 that I had received from [blank] who was the president

    16 of the Ledince local commune crisis staff. Now, at the

    17 same time, this is related to [blank], he was at three

    18 posts at the same time," and he then sets out the

    19 posts. He sets out the office of the same person at

    20 line 24. Line 26.

    21 A. "Okay. Was that the only weapon that you had

    22 with you on the first day of May 1992?"

    23 Q. "Yes."

    24 A. "Okay."

    25 Q. "But at the sugar processing plant, they gave



  37. 1 us extra ammunition and they gave us a bag with four

    2 extra ammunition sets for the automatic rifle. I had

    3 forgotten to say of course we were also given two hand

    4 grenades each to those who hadn't had them. Most

    5 people had something already, had either a hand grenade

    6 or handgun."

    7 A. "Okay. Did you have a handgun?"

    8 Q. "No."

    9 A. "Okay. Were you given specific orders or

    10 instructions as to what you were to do on the first day

    11 of May 1992?"

    12 Q. "I was given specific instructions about the

    13 3rd or 4th of May. I was at a checkpoint, that's what

    14 it was called, at the entrance to Srpska Varos on the

    15 railway, together with [blank] and an older man from

    16 Brcko. I think he'd been a teacher or something."

    17 A. "What were you to do there?"

    18 Q. "If we were told that if something arrived

    19 that was looking suspicious, a vehicle, that we should

    20 stop them, check the ID and search the car, nothing

    21 extra."

    22 A. "Okay."

    23 Q. "On the 3rd or 4th of May, [blank] shot

    24 himself in the leg from the rifle and he was taken to

    25 the hospital, and the person who came for me to the



  38. 1 checkpoint was [blank], presumably I think that's his

    2 name, [blank], being a nickname who was the chief of

    3 police in Bijelina. He put me in his official vehicle

    4 and took me to the police station in Brcko. He said he

    5 had a special task for me and that I mustn't fool

    6 around much and that I would be given direct

    7 instructions at the police station which had been

    8 liberated."

    9 A. "Okay. What happened then?"

    10 Q. "I was brought to Brcko. I was taken to

    11 [blank]. There were some policemen there, some in

    12 uniforms, some in civilian clothes. They were

    13 inspectors of what, I don't know. I didn't know them

    14 then. I was then given a policeman's uniform, a

    15 scorpion handgun with a silencer, and I was given a

    16 Motorola. I was then given the nickname of Adolf by

    17 that very same chief and that I'm supposed to use that

    18 name, codename, for the Motorola. There was a group of

    19 young men from Bor who were all in black uniforms.

    20 There were those with the Red Berets and then there

    21 were these people from Serbian Volunteers Guard who had

    22 the Tigers insignia. Then there was the Bijelina

    23 police. Bijelina police were stationed at the Galeb

    24 Hotel, and it was on the 6th or 7th of May that the

    25 first murder happened."



  39. 1 A. "Okay. The meeting where you were taken to

    2 see [blank] was on the 3rd or 4th of May; is that

    3 correct?"

    4 Q. "Yes. I'm not quite sure. A lot of time has

    5 passed."

    6 A. "Do you remember what day of the week it

    7 was?"

    8 Q. "No, I don't remember."

    9 A. "Was that the first time that you were given

    10 the name Adolf?"

    11 Q. "Yes."

    12 A. "What did he say to you at the time you were

    13 given that name?"

    14 Q. "That that would be my code, that I was to

    15 use it for the Motorola."

    16 A. "Was that the first time that you used that

    17 nickname?"

    18 Q. "I don't understand the question."

    19 A. "Did you use the nickname Adolf at any time

    20 before the 3rd or 4th of May, 1992?"

    21 Q. "No."

    22 A. "Who suggested the name Adolf?"

    23 Q. "This man [blank] from Bijelina who gave me

    24 the Scorpio, who gave me the silencer, who gave me the

    25 Motorola."



  40. 1 A. "Do you know why he chose the name Adolf?"

    2 Q. "I have no idea," and I don't propose to read

    3 the remainder of that answer unless it's wanted that I

    4 should do so. Mr. O'Donnell, if you could go to line

    5 15 passage.

    6 A. "Were there other people with you at the time

    7 that you were given your uniform and pistol and the

    8 name?"

    9 Q. "Yes, it was a full station."

    10 A. "Do you know any of the other names that were

    11 given to people?"

    12 Q. "Then? At that time?"

    13 A. "Yes, with you."

    14 Q. "No. I knew [blank]. I knew that other guy

    15 was [blank].

    16 A. "But were they given their names at the same

    17 time as you or did they already have those names?"

    18 Q. "It must have been before. It wasn't then

    19 because when I arrived they had already been calling

    20 each other over Motorolas with their codes."

    21 A. "Was anything else said about the name Adolf

    22 when it was given to you?"

    23 Q. "No. I can't think of what could have been

    24 said, just to report on that name and that the Motorola

    25 at the station had to be on all the time."



  41. 1 A. "Did they tell you that the name had any

    2 significance?"

    3 Q. "Just the code, just the code to answer."

    4 A. "Was there any reference made to Hitler or

    5 anyone else?"

    6 Q. "No. No. It was only later when people

    7 heard how they were calling me that everyone --

    8 everybody started making jokes," and the interpreter

    9 interrupted and said, "So he said, 'I just needed a

    10 little moustache and that would be perfect.'"

    11 A. "What position did you hold with the Brcko

    12 police?"

    13 Q. "No position. No position. I had no

    14 position. I have completed eight grades of primary

    15 school. Even in the army when I served my military

    16 service, I did not have a rank, so. Of course, later

    17 on I was given the description of being the murderer

    18 for the SUP, for the police station."

    19 A. "Can you describe the uniform that you were

    20 given?"

    21 Q. "It's a shirt, pale blue shirt that was the

    22 uniform of the former Yugoslav police," and I think we

    23 can turn on over the page, unless more detail is

    24 wanted.

    25 In summary, he deals with his uniform,



  42. 1 Mr. O'Donnell, with his knowledge of ranks, and matters

    2 of that sort, and at the top of page 16, did he deal

    3 with the fact that he was provided also with a baton

    4 and with handcuffs?

    5 A. That's correct.

    6 Q. He deals with the size of the scorpion

    7 pistol, but we have photographs of it and of the

    8 silencer, but he deals with that all in detail. If we

    9 go over to page 17, line 1, please.

    10 A. "Okay. Please take your time and tell me

    11 whatever details you can as we go through. Firstly,

    12 Counts 6 and 7, it is alleged that on or about the 6th

    13 or 7th of May, 1992, you escorted an unknown male down

    14 the street near the Brcko police station where you shot

    15 him in the head with a scorpion pistol and killed him.

    16 What can you tell me about that matter?"

    17 Q. "I was told to go to have my baptism of

    18 fire. Blank, (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)



  43. 1 (redacted)

    2 (redacted)

    3 (redacted)

    4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted)

    8 [Trial Chamber confers]

    9 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] If we proceed

    10 in the same way and say, "[blank], [blank]",

    11 Mr. Londrovic, I think that would make it the same.

    12 (redacted)

    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes, but I seem

    17 to remember that the indictment was read publicly, if

    18 you recall. When Mr. Jelisic has had his initial

    19 appearance, it was read out. It's public. So I think

    20 that we should just take the precaution of putting in

    21 as many blanks, that is to say, wherever names occur,

    22 that that is sufficient.

    23 Please continue, Mr. Nice.

    24 MR. NICE: Yes, indeed. Your Honour, I hope

    25 that the speed that I'm going is neither too fast nor



  44. 1 too slow. If the interpreters know that they have

    2 found their documents --

    3 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I think it's

    4 rather fast than slow, if you want, because you are

    5 proceeding a little quickly perhaps. So try and slow

    6 down just a little bit, if you would. We're going to

    7 try and get this 4th of June interview done with, and

    8 we'll then have a pause. So we're going to try and

    9 take into account, as much as possible, the comments

    10 and remarks made by Mr. Londrovic regarding the

    11 accused's family. So with these reservations, I should

    12 like to ask you to continue, Mr. Nice.

    13 MR. NICE: Thank you.

    14 Q. Line 11:

    15 "[Blank] and myself, he had been leader of

    16 [blank], who had all been in black uniforms. We went

    17 down in front of the building and we met these two

    18 reporters or two photographers. We had been told by

    19 [blank] first that we would go and execute two

    20 civilians and that after that we were supposed to be

    21 photographed with a coffin in front of the police

    22 station, that we could then pretend that we were

    23 mourning this Serb,"

    24 in inverted commas,

    25 "who had just been killed by Muslims. But



  45. 1 the coffin was empty. There was nothing written on the

    2 cross. There were some wreathes. This was all a

    3 propaganda. It was all a setup.

    4 "From the infamous cell number 13, [blank]

    5 took out two prisoners from the police station.

    6 Whoever came to be in that cell number 13 had no chance

    7 whatsoever of surviving. These people had been on

    8 lists, and they had been tried and sentenced in

    9 advance. We took away these civilians towards the

    10 market centre down the street. I shot at one and

    11 [blank] shot at the other. I shot from the Scorpion

    12 pistol, and [blank] shot from his automatic rifle.

    13 "The only thing I can't remember is which

    14 uniform [blank] was wearing, but I think it might have

    15 well been also police uniform, but they must be on

    16 photographs. And these two photographers, [blank] and

    17 [blank], were standing at the side, and they were

    18 taking pictures as we were in different stages of us

    19 killing these two people.

    20 "When we finished that, we returned to the

    21 SUP building, and just opposite the SUP is a small park

    22 and there's a -- it's a small park just opposite.

    23 People from SUP had already organised the coffin, the

    24 wreathes and everything, but now we took a young woman

    25 called [blank] and we were -- we were -- this was all



  46. 1 pretence. She was pretending. She was screaming

    2 in mourning for whoever had been killed and whoever --

    3 and who was then in the coffin, so she was pretending

    4 to cry and so were we."

    5 A. "Okay. I'll ask you a few questions about the

    6 shooting.

    7 "You said that you met with [blank], and

    8 before the shooting he told you that you would have

    9 your, as you put it, baptism by fire?"

    10 Q. "No, [blank] had said that I would have my

    11 baptism by fire, but [blank] had said that a lot of

    12 things had been screwed up in Brcko, and that things

    13 needed to be cleared up, and that we needed extra

    14 propaganda to show what was happening."

    15 A. "When was the first time that you were told

    16 that those two people were going to be killed?"

    17 Q. Repeated the question following an

    18 interjection by the interpreter, and at line 22, the

    19 defendant said:

    20 "[Blank] said that I would be going to my

    21 baptism by fire and that two people would be executed,

    22 and [blank] said -- said, 'Then give the reasons why.'

    23 And they thought that these two photographers, because

    24 they were Serbs, that they would be working for the

    25 Serbian cause. Of course, they had no idea that these



  47. 1 photographs would end up with The Hague Tribunal."

    2 A. "Was there anyone else in the room when the

    3 discussion took place about the executions?"

    4 Q. "Yes."

    5 A. "Who else was in the room?"

    6 Q. "I don't -- I really don't know the names,

    7 but there must have been between 20 and 30 civilians.

    8 Among them was Amir Novalic, also known as Fric. I

    9 know, it's indictment, I know that he was called Fric."

    10 A. "Sorry. What I'm asking you is when there

    11 was a discussion about the executions and [blank] was

    12 talking about the propaganda that was needed, were

    13 there other people in that room?"

    14 Q. "[Blank] and myself. We were called upstairs

    15 to be given instructions, [blank] and myself."

    16 A. "You went downstairs to cell number 13 after

    17 that; is that correct?"

    18 Q. I think we can probably now move straight on

    19 by summarising the next page or so. He deals with

    20 matters then, in answer to your questions, in some

    21 details, I think, Mr. O'Donnell.

    22 A. That's correct.

    23 Q. He sets out the history of how he took these

    24 two men and how they shot both of them, something that,

    25 as you know, is covered by some photographs that are



  48. 1 going to be produced in evidence in this court?

    2 A. That is correct, Your Honours.

    3 Q. At page 21, line 10?

    4 A. "How many shots did you fire at the person

    5 that you killed?"

    6 Q. "I have no idea. Maybe two or three

    7 bullets. I don't want you to misunderstand me. I

    8 really, really don't remember these things. It's been

    9 a long time."

    10 A. "I understand that a lot of questions that I

    11 ask you, you may -- you might have trouble recalling

    12 details. If that's the case, please tell me."

    13 Q. I think there's some then further matters of

    14 detail. If we go to page 22, you repeat substantially

    15 the account that he's been giving already; is that

    16 correct?

    17 A. Yes, that's correct.

    18 Q. 23 again fills out that account, and we can

    19 come to page 24.

    20 Having been asked about the body, did he, at

    21 the top of page 24, say this:

    22 "There were more bodies later on that

    23 accumulated there. I know, because I had been walking

    24 around town, and later on a small lorry came and piled

    25 up all these bodies, and I think they took them in the



  49. 1 direction of Bijeljina, where the pit was. I don't

    2 think it was the Serbs who loaded these bodies onto the

    3 small lorry. It may have been Muslims, because there

    4 was a Muslim in front of police station who were

    5 cleaning the windows, especially cleaning the glass

    6 from the windows. That's the windows that had

    7 shattered during the explosions"?

    8 A. Yes, that is correct. I then went on to

    9 say:

    10 "Did you then leave the bodies where they

    11 fell or did you take them somewhere?"

    12 Q. "We didn't carry them. I've never touched a

    13 corpse, a body."

    14 A. "Why did you shoot that man?"

    15 Q. "As I was told to."

    16 A. "Do you believe that you had any

    17 justification for killing him?"

    18 Q. "It's up to you to decide. I -- it's whether

    19 I had to, whether I was justified, whether I was told

    20 to. I don't know. I'm just telling you the way it

    21 was."

    22 A. "What do you believe would have happened if

    23 you did not kill him?"

    24 Q. "I probably would be given a treatment by

    25 [blank]. I had had a taste of it before the war, and



  50. 1 it probably would have been treatment in terms of

    2 possibly intimidation, some physical violence applied

    3 or something. But I am talking about [blank]. They

    4 knew very well about my sentence, three-and-a-half-year

    5 sentence, and they often put it out to threaten me."

    6 A. "Do you believe that you would have suffered

    7 some type of physical violence if you did not carry out

    8 the order?"

    9 Q. "Yes. I believe that I would have suffered

    10 some kind of punishment."

    11 A. "Was that mentioned to you at any time?"

    12 Q. "When?"

    13 A. "At the time of being told to do this

    14 killing."

    15 Q. "After several murders that I committed,

    16 several crimes that I have committed, I have been given

    17 a kind of treatment by the intervention platoon, and

    18 the second time I -- when they wanted me -- to force me

    19 to do things, then I had -- and I shot, I fired from

    20 the same Scorpion into both my legs."

    21 A. "Were there any threats made to you before

    22 doing this killing?"

    23 Q. "If I had protested, there would have been

    24 threats. But because I did not protest, there were no

    25 threats."



  51. 1 A. "And you think those threats would have taken

    2 the form of some sort of assault; is that right?"

    3 Q. "Perhaps beaten me up, locked me up, or

    4 returned me to Bijeljina to prison."

    5 A. "Okay. Could you have left Brcko?"

    6 Q. "When the last time when they were -- when

    7 I -- just before I had to fire into my legs when the

    8 federal SUP came to take me back to Brcko, that's

    9 when -- that's the special unit from the Yugoslav SUP,

    10 from the Federal Secretariat to the Interior of the

    11 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and leadership ...",

    12 and then a name.

    13 A. "Prior to the meeting with [blank] and

    14 [blank], just before this killing, were you told at any

    15 time that you would have to kill people?"

    16 Q. "No."

    17 A. "Could you have left Brcko on the 6th or 7th

    18 of May?"

    19 Q. "Well, there was not -- not really many

    20 checkpoints or anything. I suppose I could have

    21 been -- I could have just left, but I'm sure I would

    22 have been returned, just like I was returned from --"

    23 an unclear word.

    24 "There are non-Serbs that were in SUP and

    25 that were going to be executed by me, and I took these



  52. 1 people who will come and testify for me that I took to

    2 another location and were not killed. You probably

    3 will have the opportunity to speak with these people."

    4 A. "Okay."

    5 Q. Did you then show the defendant photographs

    6 from the Washington Post, part of a sequence of

    7 photographs that are going to be shown as an exhibit in

    8 this case?

    9 A. Yes, I did.

    10 Q. Does he identify himself as being the man in

    11 the photograph, killing, by shooting, the victim seen

    12 there?

    13 A. Yes, he did.

    14 Q. He identifies the place -- we've had it in

    15 evidence -- and there was a break in the interview at

    16 the top of page 27?

    17 A. That is correct.

    18 [Trial Chamber confers]

    19 MR. NICE:

    20 Q. The interview continued, and at line 21 you

    21 moved on to counts 8 and 9, the killing of Hasan

    22 Jasarevic, who fled from the police station. Did you

    23 say to him:

    24 "What can you tell me about that incident?"

    25 He said, "Yes, I did it"; line 28?



  53. 1 A. That's correct. I said, "What can you tell

    2 me about it?"

    3 Q. "This murder is in -- related to the killing

    4 of Amir Novalic. If you don't mind, I would like to go

    5 to Novalic, to explain about Novalic, and then I can

    6 explain. It follows on how it happened about Hasan

    7 Jasarevic."

    8 A. "If that's easier, that's no problem at all."

    9 Q. "It's related because, chronologically, Amir

    10 Novalic's murder happened first."

    11 A. "Sure, okay."

    12 Q. "And then there was an escape and then this

    13 other one."

    14 A. "Okay. For purposes of the tape, I'll put

    15 some details on tape and then you can continue with the

    16 murder of Amir Novalic. What we will talk about is

    17 counts 16 and 17.

    18 "It is alleged that on or about the 7th of

    19 May, 1992, you shot and killed a Muslim detainee named

    20 Amir Novalic, also known as Fric, inside the Brcko

    21 police station. What can you tell me about that

    22 matter?"

    23 Q. "Amir Novalic, also known as Fric, was being

    24 interrogated in a cell next-door, in a room next-door

    25 to the cell number 13. He was interrogated or, more



  54. 1 precisely, said they were beating him up. He was

    2 beaten up by the members of the intervention platoon of

    3 the police.

    4 "At one point, a young man left that room. I

    5 was in the corridor of the police station. It's as you

    6 enter the police station, it's the corridor to the

    7 right. And then on the left-hand side, there were two

    8 bathrooms, then number 13 cell, the infamous, and then

    9 that office, that room where Amir Novalic, also known

    10 as Fric, was.

    11 "So from that point, a group of policemen

    12 came out. Some of them had blood on them, and what

    13 they said was, 'Go and have a look how we -- we've

    14 processed this guy.' I approached the room, and as I

    15 approached the cell, as I came to the door, Amir

    16 Novalic, completed covered in blood, completely beaten

    17 up, rushed towards me with an axe. As he was going to

    18 hit me with the axe, I started running away from him

    19 towards the other end of the corridor, and I couldn't

    20 shoot because on the other side of the corridor behind

    21 him there was a group of about 10 or 15 policemen, and

    22 they were standing there and watching what was going

    23 on. And I took -- I lifted a chair to protect myself

    24 from the axe, and so as I lifted it, he hit me on the

    25 arm, which is what I -- which is what I had it



  55. 1 bandaged, which can be seen on that photograph. As I

    2 know I just wanted to defend him, I lifted it -- did

    3 not go towards him. I lifted the chair."

    4 Following an interjection by the interpreter:

    5 "And I started to run outside of the

    6 building towards the exit. Fric then lifted himself

    7 up, and he had the axe."

    8 Following an intervention, you said --

    9 A. "Okay. You said he's run at you with the axe

    10 and you picked up a chair; is that correct?"

    11 Q. Two answers further on, for substance. Line

    12 11:

    13 "I lifted a chair like what I wanted to

    14 protect myself from the axe. I lifted it too much, and

    15 the axe hit me with the axe on my right hand, on the

    16 lower part of my right arm. I can explain later on

    17 about how the axe happened to be there.

    18 "And then when I turned back and a man from

    19 the formation Red Berets with the nickname [blank], he

    20 lives there now, and from the handgun he fired one shot

    21 in the direction of Fric. And as he hit him, as the

    22 bullet -- as he fired, Fric fell, and so we concluded

    23 that he had hit him. After Fric fell, [blank]

    24 approached with an automatic rifle, and he fired a

    25 round into the automatic rifle -- into the chest of



  56. 1 Fric. I was in the corridor of the building and I was

    2 watching it all, and I remember that [blank] ran down

    3 the stairs, that he didn't even ask what had happened.

    4 He just started to complain, and loudly, why were

    5 people being killed inside the building.

    6 "Before I was taken to the hospital to have

    7 my arm bandaged, this man, Hasan Jasarevic, made a

    8 break free. He tried to escape from the building of

    9 the SUP, of the police station, with another young man,

    10 with another man. So one of them went towards the

    11 place where the first killing -- where the killings

    12 from counts 6 and 7 took place, towards that direction,

    13 and Hasan Jasarevic set off towards a small newspaper

    14 kiosk and the fountain there. There used to be a

    15 fountain there."

    16 A. "Okay. Before we go on to that other count,

    17 I want to ask you some further questions about the

    18 killing of Fric."

    19 Q. Page 30, we can skip the questions about Fric

    20 and go to line 21.

    21 "Later on, we can go on to Jasarevic, but

    22 anyway after I had come back, or later on when I

    23 returned from the hospital, I asked who this man was,

    24 how courageous of him to have done what he had done, so

    25 I learned how Fric --"



  57. 1 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Do you think --

    2 how long do you intend to go on? Which page do you

    3 wish to cover before the break? I think it is time.

    4 This interview ends on page --

    5 MR. NICE: This interview goes to page 89.

    6 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes, quite

    7 right. So we shall make a break then. We shall make a

    8 break and it will be a 20-minute break.

    9 --- Recess taken at 4.00 p.m.

    10 --- On resuming at 4.28 p.m.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] The session is

    12 resumed. Will you have the accused brought in,

    13 please?

    14 Mr. Nice, before we resume -- no, we have to

    15 wait for the accused.

    16 [The accused entered court]

    17 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Before we

    18 resume, the Judges wondered about the method you used,

    19 concerned, on one hand, about not wasting time, on the

    20 other, to work, and we just wonder if this was really

    21 the best method to be applied. Because this binder was

    22 given to the Judges and, of course, they are familiar

    23 with it. Well, they are not particularly conversant

    24 with it, but they have it. On the other hand, the

    25 witness is here not only to give us his impressions but



  58. 1 also to pinpoint the important points, which are said

    2 important points today.

    3 It seems to me that the important point is,

    4 on one hand, to highlight the most important elements

    5 relative the genocide, and I am not talking about what

    6 the accused has already admitted; and on the other

    7 hand, the witness told us that there were some

    8 contradictions, some inconsistencies, and we believe

    9 that he was to show us today which are these

    10 inconsistencies and contradictions.

    11 We have now been reading fragments of these

    12 interviews, which we do have before our eyes, and I

    13 believe that this debate is losing some of its

    14 transparency. I'm afraid that at the time of

    15 cross-examination, the Defence will then catch up those

    16 elements which the witness has not indicated or

    17 clarified, and then, of course, in your re-examination,

    18 you will be responding to that.

    19 So I wanted to mention this on behalf of my

    20 colleagues. What do you think about these concerns?

    21 MR. NICE: As I said at the beginning of the

    22 afternoon session, I thought it likely that we would

    23 develop a modus vivendi after the first passage of the

    24 interviews. It seemed important to me, and I trust

    25 that the Chamber may agree, to have that first passage



  59. 1 of background which you haven't had before set out in

    2 some detail.

    3 But we've now reached a place where, as I

    4 forecast, we will be able to accelerate the speed with

    5 which we go through the material, and, indeed, I have

    6 marked the pages that touch on contradictions, as well

    7 as those that touch on counts. Subject to the

    8 technical difficulties that I must cope with that

    9 relate to the B/C/S booth, which I've heard about in

    10 the pause, I think we can make good progress. It may

    11 be that by the end of this afternoon's session, the

    12 Chamber would either be prepared to take the necessary

    13 balance of material read or to be read or be satisfied

    14 that I'm moving at such a speed that only a small part

    15 of tomorrow will be consumed with the interviews.

    16 I rather doubt if there's very much that

    17 Mr. Greaves wants to cross-examine on, because thus far

    18 I have been putting in the matters that he wanted to be

    19 put in, and I also know that he has himself, since he

    20 identified the passages he wanted to go in, taken the

    21 view that perhaps not all of that needs to be led.

    22 So I'm pretty confident that, one way or

    23 another, we will be able to speed up the process and

    24 complete the evidence in this case tomorrow.

    25 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes, but may I



  60. 1 remind you once again that on the counts which we have

    2 here, the accused has admitted and has pleaded guilty.

    3 So what I'm wondering is what is the purpose of this

    4 particular exercise?

    5 Do not, please, misunderstand me. This

    6 Chamber is not asking for the repetition for the sake

    7 of repetition, and I believe that we have already said

    8 that. We are not really here to organise a race, but

    9 we are here to conduct our work efficiently. If

    10 efficiency means that we have to be long, we shall be

    11 long. But it seems to me that we are long without

    12 being efficient, and that is my problem. I know the

    13 accused has pleaded guilty on so many counts, but we

    14 are here seeking the evidence of genocide.

    15 In this binder, you or, rather, your witness

    16 should indicate which are the elements which constitute

    17 genocide, you should draw our attention to those, or if

    18 it is to clarify perhaps the personality of the

    19 accused, those should be the primary concerns. That is

    20 all that I really am saying.

    21 Of course, you have to do your job, and go on

    22 as you wish, but will you please bear in mind those

    23 observations made by the Judges?

    24 Thank you very much.

    25 MR. NICE: Certainly. Those are the passages



  61. 1 we have identified, and, indeed, of course, the

    2 killings to which he has pleaded guilty may be relevant

    3 where he sets out his mental process. But if you'll

    4 trust me, we can move from page 30 in the English, and

    5 I'm afraid I don't know the B/C/S page numbers, but if

    6 the B/C/S booth can let me know what page that is, I'll

    7 endeavour to overcome the technical problem that we've

    8 been having about page numbering.

    9 THE INTERPRETER: We left off at page 20.

    10 Can you hear me now?

    11 MR. NICE: Thank you very much.

    12 Q. So I'm going to go in the English version

    13 from page 30, Mr. O'Donnell, straight to page 34, which

    14 deals with the issue of how much thought he gave to a

    15 killing to which he may have pleaded guilty, but it's

    16 nevertheless important for that reason.

    17 On our page 34, shortly before the end of the

    18 first tape, at line 25, did you ask him: "Did you know

    19 Hasan Jasarevic before the shooting?"

    20 A. Yes, I did.

    21 Q. And he replied, "No." Carry on.

    22 A. I said, "Can you describe him for me?"

    23 Q. "No."

    24 A. "Do you know what ethnicity he was?"

    25 Q. "Muslim."



  62. 1 A. "Do you know anything about him?"

    2 Q. "Nothing."

    3 A. "Where he worked, where he lived, anything

    4 else?"

    5 Q. "Probably, he's probably from Brcko. He had

    6 been in the cell number 13 so he must have been

    7 something."

    8 That's the end of the first tape. In the

    9 English version, I turn over one page to page 36. Is

    10 it right, Mr. O'Donnell, that at line 24, you asked him

    11 if he said anything to Jasarevic before he shot him,

    12 and he said, "No, I don't think so. I think as soon as

    13 I ran out and I just shot, as they were holding him I

    14 shot ... We had no opportunity to exchange words. It

    15 just happened. He was, he was trying to escape."

    16 A. That is correct. I went on to say, "Do you

    17 recall him saying anything to you?"

    18 Q. I'm sorry. That's my mistake. "I don't

    19 think so. His back was turned."

    20 That's all I need from that. If we turn on

    21 now to several pages, in the English version, we can

    22 turn on to page 47. Your Honours, I'll give the B/C/S

    23 booth some time to find the parallel page.

    24 A. I'm sorry. Can I direct your attention to

    25 the end of page 37, the beginning of 38, which I



  63. 1 believe is important?

    2 Q. Yes. Very well. English version, page 37,

    3 at the foot of the page, you asked him?

    4 A. "Okay. Were you told to kill Hasan Jasarevic

    5 by anyone?"

    6 Q. The answer: "I cannot say that anybody said

    7 to me, go and kill him now. It was just that he had,

    8 simply had tried to escape and I went after him, but he

    9 had been in the hands of this other, of these other

    10 soldiers."

    11 A. "He was already captured at the time you shot

    12 him, is that right?"

    13 Q. And I think he then just goes on to deal with

    14 more of that, but the essential point you wanted to

    15 cover is dealt with there.

    16 In the English version then, at page 47, and

    17 for the assistance of the Chamber, he picks up here

    18 with the list again and provides a few more details

    19 about the list of which he's spoken.

    20 At the foot of the page, in the middle of the

    21 page, you asked him, "Can you tell me about the list,

    22 can you describe the list to me, please?" He replies,

    23 "What was written was for instance the header was

    24 Serbia Police Station Brcko and then it was a list of

    25 Muslim prisoners. I can't remember what the



  64. 1 description of the Muslims was. And it had at the end,

    2 it had Crisis Staff for, meaning for the Crisis Staff,

    3 and then signature of [blank] and his name printed."

    4 A. "How many pages was the list?"

    5 Q. "One. I think there were twenty-three,

    6 between twenty and twenty-five names, I think

    7 twenty-three names."

    8 A. "Was it typed or written?"

    9 Q. And he says it was typed, and on the

    10 following page, he gives further details. But at line

    11 10, in particular, he says this on page 48 in the

    12 English version: "There were just one, two, three

    13 names. There was a 'one,' for instance, and then a

    14 name, and then in brackets it said Muslim. And all the

    15 people on my list were Muslims presumably if I had a

    16 Croat there would have been Croat."

    17 Is it right that he then set out that there

    18 were no other instructions, he said, that were given to

    19 him?

    20 A. That's correct.

    21 Q. Over the page to page 49 in the English

    22 version, and starting at the foot of the page, is this

    23 one of the inconsistencies you wanted to draw to the

    24 Judges' attention?

    25 A. Yes, it is. That's correct.



  65. 1 Q. Starting at line 36 on English page 49,

    2 please read on.

    3 A. I said, "What did he tell you --"

    4 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Can the B/C/S

    5 follow? I'm thinking about the accused. I'm thinking

    6 about the Defence. Can the B/C/S booth follow?

    7 Because, evidently, the page numbering is not the

    8 same.

    9 THE INTERPRETER: They are completely wrong.

    10 We can't find the place.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Well, no, I

    12 just got a big sign of negation, showing me they could

    13 not really keep up with you, and I'm thinking of the

    14 accused and the Defence and Mr. Londrovic. Perhaps it

    15 is too fast for them. I don't know. Some people say

    16 that I'm very fast, but sometimes I'm fast. The French

    17 booth, how about them? Can we go on? Will it be all

    18 right now?

    19 Proceed, Mr. Nice.

    20 MR. NICE:

    21 Q. Page 49, line 36, the question?

    22 A. "What did he tell you had to do with the

    23 people on the list?"

    24 Q. "That I was supposed to kill them. With the

    25 list, that's how I made mistakes. I was taken to



  66. 1 Laser. They took me from the police station because I

    2 don't know where -- I don't know where Laser was."

    3 A. "I still need to get some more details about

    4 the conversation with [blank]. Do you remember exactly

    5 what he said to you about what you were to do in

    6 relation to the killing?"

    7 Q. "Here's a list of balijas, Ustashas, here it

    8 is and it had a signature."

    9 And in B/C/S, this is on page 34,

    10 Mr. Tochilovsky helpfully tells me. I'm at line 10 in

    11 the English version, and I continue.

    12 " The [blank] was there. He asked me

    13 whether I had been inside the number 13 cell. I had,

    14 yes, I had been inside. I couldn't say that I didn't

    15 go, because I had been. I wanted to see who was in

    16 there. And the key from cell number 13 was with the

    17 duty officer who was there, and he also had a hole

    18 through which we could check what was going on inside.

    19 Perhaps it was this size. Up to about halfway, it's

    20 empty, and then from about halfway, there is some kind

    21 of wooden bench or something. So it's kind of a wide

    22 bench about that high on which these people were

    23 sitting. They had no blankets or anything like that.

    24 I saw, when I went in, they used their jackets under

    25 their heads."



  67. 1 A. "Okay. So you said he asked you if you had

    2 been into cell 13. What was said after that?"

    3 Q. "I can't quite remember the details. What he

    4 may have done then, I think he may have done, is just

    5 then given me the list and said, 'Well, here they are.

    6 You've got them downstairs, you've got them in Laser,

    7 you've got them in Luka.' I had never heard, until

    8 then, about Luka. I think Luka may have been formed

    9 around the 7th or something, because Luka was formed

    10 after they got people out of Laser, where they had kept

    11 them until then."

    12 A. "Yes, but what did he say about actually

    13 killing them?"

    14 Q. And then over the page, we skip a couple of

    15 questions and answers. He returns to say, at line 8 in

    16 the English?

    17 A. "You said that you were told that it was going

    18 to be your baptism by fire and that you were told to

    19 kill those people?"

    20 Q. And then you asked him a further slightly

    21 longer question, and at line 18, he said, in the

    22 English:

    23 "The lists were probably held. I'll tell

    24 you how it went. These were lists for executions, and

    25 the lists were probably held by people who had been



  68. 1 interrogating them. For example, they sent me to

    2 detain Kemal Sulejmanovic. After the interrogators had

    3 spoken to him, if the order was to kill him, I would

    4 kill him."

    5 Page 35 in the B/C/S.

    6 "And then, of course, if they had the orders

    7 to continue his detention or to return him to

    8 detention, then that would continue. Nothing would

    9 happen to him. I think you will understand that

    10 through the murder of Naza Bukvic and her father."

    11 A. "Okay".

    12 Q. You asked him another question. He said --

    13 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Will you please

    14 try not to use the names, not to read out the names?

    15 Will you please just tell us "blank"?

    16 MR. NICE: I've only been reading out the

    17 names of the identified victims, I think, that have

    18 already been given.

    19 Q. So at line 30 in the English, he continued:

    20 "He didn't say 'kill', he didn't say

    21 'kill'. He said, 'Here is a list of people who have

    22 to be liquidated.' As long as there was his signature

    23 in the name of [blank], that means that somebody

    24 somewhere had decided this, and I know. I learned

    25 later on who was deciding what in the [blank]. For



  69. 1 instance, the person responsible for --"

    2 And then he gives a number of names which we

    3 needn't deal with.

    4 You asked him, in page 52 of the English,

    5 line 5, another question. He went on, asked if he had

    6 been surprised:

    7 "Well, I wasn't at all pleased that I would

    8 have to kill people. I thought it was just going to be

    9 a policeman, like before, but I think I took it all

    10 very lightly. I couldn't imagine that a person who got

    11 eight grades of school and who was supposed to go to

    12 sit a sentence in gaol, that I would then be -- have

    13 this power. We'll have a non-Serb witness, whom I was

    14 told to liquidate, whom I took to a certain location

    15 and left there. At that time, I was risking my own

    16 life, and the specific case was ..."

    17 And he then gives a job position.

    18 " ... and he was not on my list."

    19 If we turn over to page 53, in the middle of

    20 the page, Mr. O'Donnell, is there a passage that you

    21 want to draw particularly to the Court's attention?

    22 A. There is. It starts with the question:

    23 "Did you question your order to kill these

    24 people?"

    25 Q. That's line 21. Answer:



  70. 1 "Well, I wasn't indifferent to that."

    2 Carry on.

    3 A. "What do you mean by that?"

    4 Q. "It was not pleasant to be given this list

    5 and being told to kill people. These people were never

    6 given a chance to defend themselves. They were

    7 completely helpless."

    8 A. "Well, that's why I'm asking the question.

    9 It seems completely strange that you would be given a

    10 list of people to kill and not question that."

    11 Q. "I had -- I had no -- there was no way that I

    12 could have questioned it. It was war. It was not a

    13 game. There was nobody that I could appeal to. There

    14 was nobody that I could protest to."

    15 A. "Did you protest or question any of the lists

    16 that you were given?"

    17 Q. He then says, "No, to be honest."

    18 At the foot of that page, he starts off with

    19 a long answer that again you want to draw to the

    20 Court's attention, I think.

    21 A. Yes, that's correct.

    22 Q. This relates to which topic, the one at the

    23 bottom of the page that you think is significant?

    24 A. It relates to whether or not he was able to

    25 leave Brcko.



  71. 1 Q. And whether he had the freedom of movement

    2 that he subsequently denied having?

    3 A. Correct.

    4 Q. We can deal with this one, I think, in

    5 summary. There's a long answer at English page 54,

    6 B/C/S page 37, where he speaks of a particular post

    7 holder and sets out how it was that he was able to

    8 drive this man. Just tell us where, please,

    9 Mr. O'Donnell.

    10 A. He was able to take him to Bijeljina.

    11 Q. Thank you. We can then, unless you

    12 particularly want to draw our attention to anything

    13 else, can go to page 57 in the English, where he claims

    14 at line 5, in a long answer -- and it's B/C/S page 39

    15 at the top -- he claims that he spared the life of a

    16 Dr. Ramic. Is that right?

    17 A. Yes, that is correct.

    18 Q. He claims, we can see in the answer, that the

    19 order was to kill that person but that the person was

    20 not killed. Did you find any evidential support for

    21 that assertion by him?

    22 A. Yes. To a certain extent, yes, that's true.

    23 I would also like to draw to the attention of the Court

    24 line 12 and line 13.

    25 Q. In which case, I'll read that part of the



  72. 1 answer. Picking it up at line 10:

    2 "Some of the friends of the family, he told

    3 them that he -- he informed them that he was free and

    4 safe. It could have happened that I could have had

    5 problems. There were not specific problems, but I

    6 could have had problems. I could have been killed by

    7 one of the ..."

    8 And then he names a number of people.

    9 So what's the evidential support for the

    10 Dr. Ramic account?

    11 A. That he was saved, that he was, in fact,

    12 alive.

    13 Q. That he was alive?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Do you know anything of the defendant's

    16 involvement in all that, one way or the other?

    17 A. I haven't personally spoken to him.

    18 Q. Is that the -- very well, that's all I need

    19 to know.

    20 Page 58, at the top of the page, you wanted

    21 to draw the Court's attention to the answer there?

    22 A. Yes, that is correct, from line 2 on page 58.

    23 Q. The answer reads as follows:

    24 "That's why I escaped from Brcko, because I

    25 didn't want to get the bullet. The chief of police was



  73. 1 killed, the commander of the station."

    2 And I needn't deal with that, I think, but he

    3 says he didn't want to get killed. That's all you

    4 wanted to draw attention to there, I think.

    5 A. That is correct.

    6 Q. At page 62, although we won't use any names,

    7 does he, in the middle of page 62 in the English, which

    8 is B/C/S page 42, does he speak of somebody and, at

    9 line 20, say that that person had control over what was

    10 happening in the camp? That was his account?

    11 A. Yes, he did.

    12 Q. Turning on to English page 65, is he now

    13 dealing with the period after the killings at the camp

    14 had been stopped by the intervention of someone else?

    15 A. I can't say exactly what period of time he's

    16 referring to, whether it was before that happened or

    17 later. The significance is that it refers to him being

    18 called to Luka or going there voluntarily, from line

    19 16.

    20 Q. You asked him -- just read the question.

    21 A. I said:

    22 "And when you were not called for specific

    23 reasons, why did you go?"

    24 Q. And he answered:

    25 "I knew these people who were guards. It



  74. 1 was a habit. I would just go there because I was used

    2 to going. I just went there, and I went there and

    3 drank and watched the prisoners."

    4 As we can see from the previous page, this

    5 relates to a time later in May and thereafter. That

    6 was on page 44.

    7 For the assistance of the Trial Chamber, at

    8 English page 68, although you may not wish to emphasise

    9 this to the Chamber, there's further account given of

    10 the lists and the instructions that he was given; is

    11 that right?

    12 A. Yes, that is correct.

    13 Q. If we go to English page 72, and I don't know

    14 if we can -- English page 72. We may be able to,

    15 Witness, with Mr. Tochilovsky's assistance and

    16 Ms. Reynders', identify the B/C/S. I think it's on

    17 page 49.

    18 At page 72, at line 30, did you start to deal

    19 with what at that time was called counts 22 to 25, I

    20 think counts 18 to 19 in the indictment before the

    21 Chamber, the killing of Naza Bukvic?

    22 A. Yes, that is correct.

    23 Q. Over the page a couple of questions and

    24 answers, he then says, at page 73, line 8, of that

    25 person:



  75. 1 "I saw her first in the office of the two

    2 inspectors. Her brother, I don't know what his name

    3 was. I can see that his surname was [blank]. He had

    4 been ... "

    5 And it sets out his role.

    6 Line 16 -- no, I can move on to line 20.

    7 "At one point, Naza Bukvic spoke,"

    8 this is on the telephone,

    9 " and I believe it was her brother she was

    10 speaking, and she said, 'I'm in a Chetnik camp with

    11 father.' And she said to him not to surrender. She

    12 couldn't say any more because they pressed the

    13 disconnect button. I took my baton off and started to

    14 beat her, and these two inspectors started shouting at

    15 me, saying, 'No, stop. We have special methods for

    16 her.' So I left the office. I later found out that

    17 Naza had also signed an empty piece of paper.

    18 "Then they called me to take Naza out and

    19 kill her, and I took Naza out here, somewhere here. I

    20 shot her."

    21 He then set that out on a diagram; is that

    22 correct?

    23 A. That is correct.

    24 Q. We can then, I think, go on, getting towards

    25 the end of this first interview, to English page 80,



  76. 1 which has a passage you want to draw to the Judges'

    2 attention?

    3 A. That is correct; it is.

    4 Q. While we're finding the B/C/S page reference,

    5 what's the significance that you want to draw from this

    6 passage?

    7 A. The significance relates to how voluntarily

    8 he committed the murders.

    9 Q. It's at line 13 in the English, and this will

    10 be found within page 54 of the B/C/S, 54 to 55. You

    11 asked him a question. Please read it.

    12 A. The question, starting from line 13:

    13 "You said that you recall Naza Bukvic better

    14 because she was a woman. Do you remember if you had

    15 any conversation with her before you killed her?"

    16 Q. "Possibly. I can't either -- I don't deny

    17 it. I don't admit to it. It may have -- I may have --

    18 I may have swore at her. I may have cursed her. I

    19 don't remember."

    20 A. "Okay."

    21 Q. "I'm not saying that I was nice to her. I

    22 can't remember everything in detail, but I don't

    23 remember what I said to her."

    24 I think you then turned to what were counts

    25 28 and 29, now counts 22 to 23.



  77. 1 A. That is correct.

    2 Q. The man with the ear cut off, killed in the

    3 hangar, and he sets out in detail what happened about

    4 that man; is that right?

    5 A. That is correct.

    6 Q. We've heard a lot of evidence about that.

    7 Well, I think we can probably turn now to the

    8 next interview, and the Chamber will have seen that we

    9 are accelerating very considerably. I hope that the

    10 speed is not too much for the many support staff.

    11 The next interview, on the 29th of June, has

    12 the personalities involved at page 1. It deals -- at

    13 page 5 in the English, he deals, at line 18 and

    14 onwards -- this is page 3 in the B/C/S -- with our

    15 present counts 8 to 9, the young man from Sinteraj, and

    16 he says of this killing at line 21 to 22:

    17 "The officer on duty took them out of cell

    18 number 13 because they had already been interrogated by

    19 the inspectors. He was handed to me in front of the

    20 duty booth in front of the police station, and the

    21 young man walked in front of me. I walked behind him.

    22 We left the police station, and we set off towards that

    23 location where I shot the young man. I cannot quite

    24 recall, but I believe someone else was with me then

    25 too. I think someone must have gone to see it all, but



  78. 1 I was personally given the order. And as I usually

    2 did, I used two bullets to kill the young man from

    3 Sinteraj, shooting him in the back of the head."

    4 And he sets outs that it was a Scorpion that he used.

    5 We can move on to English page 15. While

    6 we're finding the B/C/S page number, at line 28, did

    7 you turn, in the interview, to Counts 10 and 11, as

    8 they now are, Counts 12 to 13 then, page 10 in the

    9 B/C/S, the killing of Ahmet Hodzic?

    10 A. Yes, that's correct.

    11 Q. You put the allegation to him, and at line

    12 34, he said this:

    13 "Following the same script, Ahmet Hodzic was

    14 in cell number 13. It was only after the murder that I

    15 found out some things about him. From certain Brcko

    16 policemen in the police station, I had asked them who

    17 was this man. That he had been the president of the

    18 Muslim Party, the SDA, the Party of Democratic Action.

    19 Now I don't believe he was really the president of the

    20 party because I was later ordered to kill another man

    21 who was the president of the party. The same thing, I

    22 was handed Ahmet Hodzic in front of the duty booth, and

    23 following the same script by order, I took him out of

    24 the police station, I turned left towards the location

    25 that we have just mentioned. I shot and killed him. I



  79. 1 can't remember that I beat him and I don't think I did

    2 because it was not ordered to me to beat him."

    3 Then I think on the following page, English

    4 page 17, one page on, there's a short passage in the

    5 middle of this page to which you want to focus the

    6 Tribunal's attention.

    7 A. That is correct. It starts with the question

    8 from me at line 10 on page 17.

    9 Q. Read the question and make the point,

    10 please.

    11 A. "I'll read to you part of what a witness said

    12 about the killing to see if it refreshes your memory

    13 and I will ask you to comment on that. He said ..."

    14 that is, the witness who told us these things

    15 said, "... I saw Papa, which is the nickname of this

    16 person, coming out of the police station. Goran was

    17 following him with a police baton and was hitting Papa

    18 across his shoulders as he was not moving fast enough.

    19 They came down the steps and took a left onto the

    20 sidewalk. Papa was taken between the hairdressers and

    21 the shopping centre."

    22 Q. And he replied, "Yeah, that's the same

    23 location we have spoken about before."

    24 A. "Goran was escorted by 2 guards. Goran said

    25 to Papa, 'You Turk, hurry up, you are looking at your



  80. 1 town for the last time.'" And then I said, "Is there

    2 anything you can say about that?"

    3 Q. This is on B/C/S page 12. The point that you

    4 wanted to make about his answers here, Mr. O'Donnell?

    5 A. In lines 26, 27, and 28, would you like me to

    6 read --

    7 Q. But the point that you're making is what?

    8 A. The point that I'm making is that this is one

    9 of the inconsistencies between his version of events

    10 and other versions which we have been given which I'd

    11 like to go into after we go through the various

    12 passages.

    13 Q. It sanitises the version of events as given

    14 by the witnesses.

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. And the answer that he gave, I'll just read

    17 it to the relevant point: "Yes. If I was to engage in

    18 any kind of contact with any of the persons that were

    19 to be killed or rather if I had engaged in any kind of

    20 contact. If that person had started begging or asking,

    21 I would have rather killed myself than the person.

    22 Although I had committed these murders, I am not a

    23 person without a soul, I am not an executioner. And

    24 you will see that when my witnesses speak to you. If

    25 he had spoken one word to me, I would have done



  81. 1 something to save him. I would have fired in the air

    2 or something. Or I would have killed myself, but it's

    3 not an easy thing to do. You don't know what that

    4 person is accused of. You see that the person is

    5 helpless and you have to kill that person. If I hadn't

    6 killed him, they would have killed me. And these

    7 people, him and the others that we already talked

    8 about, they would have been killed anyway. And I was

    9 not the only one to kill, to execute people from room

    10 number 13. The intervention squad, civilian police

    11 intervention squad ..." and then he goes on to give a

    12 name.

    13 Over the page to page 18, you turned at, I

    14 think -- well, we can just see. You asked him if he

    15 was remorseful --

    16 A. That's correct.

    17 Q. -- at line 19, and he said at line 22, on

    18 page 18, "I will feel that all the time until I have,

    19 until I am convicted and until I receive my time ..."

    20 and he then goes on to make further remarks about

    21 that.

    22 To page 19, there was a suspension of the

    23 interview, and you pick it up dealing with what were

    24 Counts 18 and 19, at line 28, this, of course, being

    25 page 13 in the B/C/S, now Counts 14 to 15.



  82. 1 At line 28, you asked him about the killings

    2 of two men, suggesting that he, with one other, had

    3 been involved in the killing, asked him what he could

    4 tell you about it, and at English page 20, he sets out

    5 his account of taking these two men to the office

    6 opposite the hangar, at line 9.

    7 At line 10, he says, "For that murder,

    8 [blank] had no order. He took that man straightaway

    9 and took him, and I had first taken Cita to the

    10 inspector. I left Cita in the office with the

    11 inspector and I walked out and I saw [blank] walking

    12 away from the body towards the van of the intervention

    13 platoon. When the inspectors were finished with

    14 Jasmenko Cumurovic, they called me into the office

    15 because I had taken him into the office in the first

    16 place. A guard came in a uniform, police uniform from

    17 the Luka camp. He called me and I went to [two

    18 names]. They told me that he was a dangerous Balija,

    19 that is a pejorative term for Muslims, and that I

    20 should kill him." There's the name of the victim

    21 again. "I took him to the corner of the hangar and I

    22 killed him with my handgun, Scorpio with a silencer, I

    23 shot at his head. Even after this murder I could not

    24 find out, nobody wanted to tell me why this man was

    25 guilty, what he had been accused of. I never found



  83. 1 out."

    2 Then, unless Mr. Greaves wants me to read out

    3 any more of the passages that he had identified to be

    4 read there, we can move to English page 29, and on this

    5 page, it starts with, in the English, "Okay. I'd like

    6 to talk to you about counts 14 and 15 ..." Did you ask

    7 him about the killing of Suad, which is presently our

    8 Counts 12 to 13?

    9 A. Yes, I did.

    10 Q. And his explanation was, at line 7, that he

    11 had killed this man, the answer going on "... at the

    12 same location where I killed the aforementioned people

    13 where the photograph shows. Again I would like to

    14 stress that I was not given the order to beat Suad, and

    15 I don't think there is any rifle which would have an

    16 iron rifle butt that I could hit with that. And if

    17 ever there were orders to beat someone of course then

    18 it would be with a baton. Whenever I was told to beat

    19 someone I always made sure that I was, at least that I

    20 would participate as little as possible because I am

    21 not much for beating people ..." page 20 in the B/C/S

    22 and at the top, but other than that, he went on to

    23 explain -- having given that version of his own

    24 approach, he went on to explain how he shot the man

    25 with a maximum of two bullets; is that correct?



  84. 1 A. Yes, he did.

    2 Q. And you would like to draw to the Court's

    3 attention, at page 36 in the English, a short passage,

    4 the significance of it being what?

    5 A. The significance being again the sanitised

    6 version of events that was given to us by Mr. Jelisic.

    7 Q. In contrast with the witness statements that

    8 you had and, indeed, that had been served.

    9 A. That is correct.

    10 Q. And the passage that you draw to the Court's

    11 attention particularly starts, I think, in your

    12 question at about line 20, where you're reading -- a

    13 bit before line 20, line 18, where you're reading from

    14 what the witness said.

    15 A. That is correct.

    16 Q. B/C/S, page 25, I think. Can you read the

    17 passage that you have in mind, and I'll read the

    18 answer?

    19 A. It starts at line 18, "The witness

    20 said, 'After the beating, Suad was told to get up and

    21 walk in front of the soldiers. Suad sensed what was in

    22 store for him and he started crying. Suad then pleaded

    23 that he had a baby that was still on milk. They took

    24 Suad to the area where Papa and the young man had been

    25 taken. Goran went with the soldiers and escorted



  85. 1 Suad. At the time Goran was carrying a Scorpion

    2 pistol. After they went out of sight I heard one

    3 gunshot.' Is there anything that you can say about

    4 that?"

    5 Q. "He could not have heard the gunshot, that is

    6 a lie. If he had heard the gunshot then I didn't kill

    7 him. Because when you actually use the Scorpio with a

    8 silencer you just hear the mechanism of the thing going

    9 back after the shot. I think your witness wanted to

    10 make it nicer. I would have said if it was like this,

    11 if he heard it then I didn't kill him."

    12 A. "What about the conversation with him

    13 pleading with you?"

    14 Q. "He definitely did not speak to me. Those

    15 who were working outside, there was a group of them

    16 cleaning on the right-hand side. And if they were

    17 going to the left they could not have heard anything

    18 even if there was conversation."

    19 So he denies completely the pleading spoken

    20 of by the witness.

    21 A. That is correct.

    22 Q. If we can move to the next interview on the

    23 30th of June, the personalities present revealed on

    24 page 1. On page 2 in the English, at line 26, you

    25 turned to Counts 20 and 21, now Counts 16 and 17 --



  86. 1 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I suggest that

    2 we, nevertheless, make a 15-minute break because this

    3 is a long session. So we shall adjourn now for 15

    4 minutes.

    5 --- Recess taken at 5.17 p.m.

    6 --- On resuming at 5.36 p.m.

    7 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We are

    8 resuming. Will you have the accused brought in,

    9 please?

    10 [The accused entered court]

    11 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice?

    12 MR. NICE: Before we return to the place in

    13 the bundle of interviews where we were, I discovered

    14 there was one important question and answer that I, in

    15 my haste, overlooked.

    16 Q. Can I ask the Chamber and the witness just

    17 for one reference, to go back to the interview of the

    18 4th of June, at page 49 in the English? I've been

    19 further alerted to the difficulties in the B/C/S and,

    20 no doubt, also in the French booths, and we will try to

    21 find the matching page, but it's only one short

    22 question and answer that I need to draw to the

    23 Chamber's attention. We'll see if we can find it in

    24 the B/C/S. Perhaps as it's such a short passage, I can

    25 simply read it out.



  87. 1 Mr. O'Donnell, was there a passage in the

    2 interview, starting at line 13 on page 49, where he set

    3 out what happens when he was given the list?

    4 A. Yes, that is correct.

    5 Q. Did you then ask him the question:

    6 "Can you tell me what [blank] said to you

    7 when he gave you the list"?

    8 A. Yes, I did.

    9 Q. And did he then reply in these terms:

    10 "Each one of our conversations, each one of

    11 our contacts, had something to do with me being told

    12 that as many Muslims as possible had to be killed and

    13 that Brcko had to -- should become a Serbian town"?

    14 A. Yes, that is correct.

    15 Q. You then asked him a further question about

    16 the lists, and he replied -- and it is in the B/C/S at

    17 page 33 -- and he replied:

    18 "There was a list I was handed. I was told

    19 that these were extremists, that these were dangerous,

    20 that they were agitators for the SDA, that they were

    21 organising SDA. They used the pejorative word for

    22 Muslims, 'balija', that they were extremists. That was

    23 what they -- that was the story they sold to us who

    24 Muslims were, what Muslims were."

    25 Was that the answer?



  88. 1 A. Yes, it was.

    2 Q. And then he went on to deal with the passage

    3 that I've already gone through with you?

    4 A. That is correct.

    5 Q. We now return to the interview of the 13th of

    6 June that we can deal with, I think, really very

    7 quickly, although there are some passages here that you

    8 want to draw to the Judges' attention?

    9 A. Yes, that is correct.

    10 Q. But first, on page 2 of the interview of the

    11 13th of June, there is something I must deal with in

    12 relation to what was counts 20 and 21, now counts 16

    13 and 17, the killing of the brothers from Zvornik, which

    14 he dealt with on page 2 and over at page 3. This is

    15 the detail that, in light of the way the evidence has

    16 come out, I must just elicit.

    17 In the course of a long answer on our page 3

    18 at line 20, towards the end of the long answer, did he

    19 say, of the killing of the brothers from Zvornik:

    20 "We went to the hangar, and I read out the

    21 names from the ID cards of the two brothers. We took

    22 them out, took them behind the corner of the hangar,

    23 and I shot one with -- firing from a Scorpion with a

    24 silencer, and [blank] killed the other one from a

    25 handgun. That's when Huso and Smail Zahirovic were



  89. 1 killed"?

    2 A. Yes, that is correct.

    3 Q. I'm now going to move on in the English to

    4 page 8, and I'll see if I can find the matching B/C/S

    5 page. It's page 6. This is a passage that you draw to

    6 the Judges' attention, running over, I think, probably

    7 into the following page, for what purposes? Is it to

    8 do with his alleged remorse at saving people and his

    9 ability to travel freely?

    10 A. It's to do with the fact that he said that he

    11 saved as many people as he could, and also about his

    12 freedom of movement out of Brcko.

    13 Q. That's revealed on English page 8, line 10, 9

    14 and 10, his saying that whenever he saved a person, "it

    15 was a great triumph for me, and any Muslim who was

    16 killed, a man or woman, I -- like, for instance, Naza

    17 Bukvic -- I would imagine my family and my parents

    18 being killed."

    19 Did he say that to you?

    20 A. Yes, he did.

    21 Q. I've changed the form of questioning slightly

    22 to assist the interpreters, and I'm not dealing with it

    23 in the question-and-answer form of you and me because

    24 of the problems that that creates for them.

    25 But further down page 8, at our line 28, did



  90. 1 he speak of a list of people that he had saved, saying

    2 that he would try and get hold of one, a British

    3 journalist, going on to say:

    4 "And there was one dark gentleman, a French

    5 journalist. They also had to be killed. I took them

    6 to Bijeljina, and they went on their way safely on to

    7 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and there's another

    8 case I can't remember."

    9 And he goes on to deal with that?

    10 A. That is correct.

    11 Q. And did he, over the page, indeed just one

    12 question further on at English page 9, line 6, again

    13 assert --

    14 A. I'm sorry, can I just draw your attention to

    15 line 36 on page 8?

    16 Q. Yes, where he says -- sorry, line 36 on

    17 page 8 is where he says he took someone to Belgrade?

    18 A. That's correct.

    19 Q. On page 9, at line 6, did he assert again

    20 that he was telling you, you sincerely, that he saved

    21 lives whenever he was able?

    22 A. That is correct.

    23 Q. And you draw that to the Court's attention as

    24 inconsistent with what?

    25 A. Mr. Jelisic gave us a version of events that



  91. 1 I would like to show a number of inconsistencies in. I

    2 think it's better if I outline those at the end so

    3 that --

    4 Q. Yes.

    5 A. -- they make sense.

    6 Q. Very well. For the Court's reference, at

    7 English page 25 did he start to deal, at your request,

    8 with counts --

    9 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Excuse me,

    10 Mr. Nice, but we have a problem with your method. You

    11 bring in, you call, a witness who is an investigator to

    12 highlight the inconsistencies, and we believe that the

    13 witness gets ready to speak about these inconsistencies

    14 and he comes here and says, "Here, this is the first

    15 inconsistency, this is the first one," and then he

    16 shows us what the witness has said on one occasion,

    17 perhaps on the [indiscernible] of the facts, and where

    18 is this inconsistency? And yet we are still waiting.

    19 We spent two hours this afternoon waiting for the

    20 inconsistency, and you are saying, "You will see where

    21 the inconsistencies are."

    22 I cannot speak in the name of my colleagues,

    23 but I speak in my own name that I find the method

    24 slightly strange. The witness is here, we're reading

    25 these statements, and he could have told us, "This is



  92. 1 the first inconsistency and I'm going to show you," and

    2 then we shall see that.

    3 Now we are reading, and the witness, instead

    4 of giving evidence to tell us, "Here is the

    5 inconsistency," and then he doesn't show the Judge

    6 where the inconsistency is. I believe that would be a

    7 better method.

    8 MR. NICE: Well, we have a number of

    9 functions to achieve with these interviews, not only

    10 showing his account and showing admissions of matters

    11 that are against his interest and that must be before

    12 you, but also dealing with the inconsistencies, and I

    13 had thought it would be preferable, rather than going

    14 backwards and forwards through the bundle, to lay the

    15 interesting and helpful material before you and then

    16 get him to summarise it at the end. But I'm quite

    17 happy to change.

    18 There do remain some other matters in this

    19 very interview that I have to draw to your attention

    20 for other reasons, not only to identify where he deals

    21 with the particular counts, because of course you'll

    22 want to know that.

    23 But if I can just take you now to a passage

    24 that I referred to earlier at page 34 of the English

    25 version. I know it's passing over a couple of matters



  93. 1 that the witness may draw to your attention later.

    2 Q. Page 34, did he, at this part of the

    3 interview, Mr. O'Donnell --

    4 JUDGE RIAD: Is it the 4th of June or what is

    5 it now?

    6 MR. NICE: It is the interview of the 30th of

    7 June.

    8 JUDGE RIAD: The 30th of June.

    9 MR. NICE: Page 34. It's a very long answer

    10 which I can summarise, because the Chamber will

    11 remember its significance and relevance, and it's at

    12 page 24 in the B/C/S.

    13 Q. Mr. O'Donnell, did the witness deal

    14 extensively with someone -- we needn't name him or

    15 identify him in any way, but someone who he drove away

    16 from Luka camp back to that person's home address or

    17 nearly to his home address?

    18 A. Yes, he did.

    19 MR. NICE: The Chamber will remember the

    20 detail of this from last week.

    21 Q. In the course of the answers on page 34 and

    22 onwards, did he make complete admission to the fact

    23 that he had filled out the pass for that person?

    24 A. Yes, he did.

    25 Q. Saying, in a sense, that he'd stolen it from



  94. 1 the office, but nevertheless making it quite clear that

    2 he had filled out that pass?

    3 A. Yes, he did.

    4 Q. Thank you. Then if we can go to page 43 in

    5 the English, which is page 30 in the B/C/S, is there a

    6 passage at the bottom of the page that you wanted to

    7 highlight, probably to refer to later if that's the way

    8 it will happen, in summarising inconsistencies or other

    9 points that you're making?

    10 A. Yes, there is.

    11 Q. What's the passage and what's the point?

    12 A. The passage is from line 26, 27, on page 43,

    13 and again it's an example of the sanitised version of

    14 events given to us by Mr. Jelisic.

    15 Q. So the passage concerned, does it read as

    16 follows: that you asked him about what a witness would

    17 say, where the witness spoke of somebody pleading not

    18 to be killed, and of Jelisic saying, "How could that

    19 person have heard what I'm saying," and basically

    20 denying the allegation completely?

    21 A. That is correct.

    22 Q. So we can turn to the next interview, which

    23 again can be dealt with very shortly, and it's the

    24 interview on the 1st of July. The personalities are

    25 set out. In this interview, you'd reached what are our



  95. 1 present Counts 40 and 41 --

    2 JUDGE RIAD: Which page is it?

    3 MR. NICE: The interview page is at the top.

    4 Page 1 of the interview itself doesn't have a page

    5 number but sets out the people attending.

    6 Q. Page 2, at the foot, in the English, shows

    7 that you were dealing with Counts 46 to 47, now Counts

    8 40 to 41, and I think you would like to take the Judges

    9 to page 6.

    10 A. That is correct.

    11 Q. So we'll find that in the B/C/S. I know

    12 there's quite a lot on this in the following pages that

    13 you want to comment on, and so when we've found the

    14 B/C/S, rather than to do question and answer, I'll get

    15 you to make your comments and summarise the passages

    16 that you want to refer to, if that's convenient. We'll

    17 find the B/C/S page first, I think it's page 4, and

    18 you're taking the Judges, first of all, to lines 35, I

    19 believe.

    20 A. That's correct, line 35, when Mr. Jelisic

    21 talks of leaving. Do you want me to go through them?

    22 Q. No. I'd like you to summarise the point that

    23 you're making over this and the subsequent pages,

    24 because to read it out would take quite a long time.

    25 A. Okay. Mr. Jelisic gives an account of



  96. 1 leaving Brcko, how he was able to leave Brcko and where

    2 he went, also the amount of money that he had with him

    3 at the time and what his beliefs were at that time. It

    4 goes back to one of the first points that I made about

    5 inconsistencies. I'm in a position to go through those

    6 all now or I can come back and explain the significance

    7 in the order of things.

    8 Q. That's an account. We'll deal with it then

    9 later.

    10 Another passage that you wanted us to have in

    11 mind, I think, is at page 11 to 12, but it's a matter

    12 of detail that fits into this story, and we probably

    13 can avoid searching for the B/C/S equivalent --

    14 A. That is correct.

    15 Q. -- because at this page, he indicated to you,

    16 in an answer, that he had -- the top of page 12 --

    17 6.000 or 7.000 Deutschmarks with him?

    18 A. That's correct.

    19 Q. However, at page 15 is something that you

    20 would draw the Court's attention to as revealing

    21 Jelisic's true attitude. Page 15 in the English will

    22 be page 11 in the B/C/S, and would you like to read,

    23 yourself, the questions and answers, because of the

    24 technical problems of doing it the way I was doing it,

    25 that you rely on here?



  97. 1 A. At line 7 on page 15, I asked the question:

    2 "Did you leave many things in Brcko?" He said, "I had

    3 nothing in Brcko. I did not live in Brcko. There was

    4 nothing for me to leave." I said, "Were you well-known

    5 in Bijeljina?" He said, "There is one thing I left --"

    6 and there was some laughing. "I wanted to have my

    7 coffee machine. I wanted to steal something from

    8 Mistrovic gas station. It was a huge coffee machine

    9 and that's something I really regret not taking, that

    10 is something I miss."

    11 Q. The significance of that?

    12 A. Again, I find it very strange, when

    13 Mr. Jelisic presented himself as someone who was very

    14 sorry for what happened and he did things because he

    15 was forced to and had no say in what was actually done.

    16 Q. At page 19 and onwards, did he give an

    17 account that I think you're probably able to summarise

    18 about his arrest and the suggestion that he wanted to

    19 surrender himself?

    20 A. From page 19 and page 20 --

    21 Q. Page 14 and onwards in the B/C/S.

    22 A. -- he talks about the arrest of two other

    23 people who were with him after he had left Brcko and

    24 the fact that those people were arrested for things

    25 that they did in the Brcko area. They were arrested in



  98. 1 the same coffee shop and at the same table as him, yet

    2 the authorities at that stage showed no interest in

    3 him.

    4 Q. So what do you say as to the probable truth

    5 or otherwise of that account?

    6 A. I find it difficult to accept Mr. Jelisic's

    7 version of events, given that he said that he at the

    8 time was hiding out in fear of his life, and he went on

    9 at page 21 to talk about a member of the special police

    10 from Belgrade who told him he was supposed to kill

    11 Mr. Jelisic and knew all of his movements, given that

    12 he believed that they knew all of his movements and he

    13 was at the same table as another two people that were

    14 arrested for what they had done in Brcko, I find it

    15 difficult that he truly believed that.

    16 Q. Now, I'm going to, I think, cut short the

    17 detailed analysis of further pages.

    18 MR. NICE: I don't know until what time the

    19 Court is sitting today, but I think the time has now

    20 been reached, because we've looked at the raw material,

    21 when the witness can give his summary of the

    22 inconsistencies that the Court would like. Then having

    23 done that, I've finished with this witness, and the

    24 Court will realise that there's not a great deal more

    25 evidence to consume tomorrow.



  99. 1 So I'm entirely in the Court's hands, but we

    2 could take the evidence of summary now, or it may be

    3 that the Court would want to deal with that tomorrow.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] No. The

    5 hearing adjourns at 6.00, and I believe the

    6 interpreters also can hardly wait to get a breath of

    7 air. So I suggest that we adjourn for today and resume

    8 tomorrow morning, because we are working tomorrow

    9 morning, and to resume at 10.00.

    10 After this witness, after his

    11 examination-in-chief and cross-examination, how long do

    12 you have? How long have you planned for him, and how

    13 long, after him, do you plan to go on?

    14 MR. NICE: I'm in Mr. Greaves' hands for

    15 cross-examination of this witness. Mr. Basham will

    16 produce the photographs, and that will be the work of a

    17 couple of minutes, and then Mr. Ralston will probably

    18 be the best part of 45 minutes or an hour in chief, but

    19 no more, cross-examination, and I think that the

    20 Chamber did have in mind a short Status Conference

    21 probably at that stage.

    22 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes. We shall

    23 have a Status Conference. That is true. I merely

    24 wanted to hear what we still have to do before us. But

    25 at any rate, we shall resume tomorrow morning at



  100. 1 10.00.

    2 The session is adjourned.

    3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

    4 6.00, to be reconvened on Wednesday, the

    5 22nd day of September, 1999, at

    6 10.00 a.m.

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