1Monday, 8th November, 1999
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 2.45 p.m.
4 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Please be
6 Mr. Registrar, will you have the accused
7 brought in, and also give us the case number, since
8 we're starting on a new legal foundation.
9 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This is case
10 number IT-95-10-T.
11 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you. Let
12 me wait for the accused to be brought into the
14 [The accused entered court]
15 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] First of all, I
16 would like representations for the parties.
17 First for the Office of the Prosecutor,
18 Mr. Nice, would you please tell us who is with you?
19 That is yourself, of course, and --
20 MR. NICE: Mr. Tochilovsky.
21 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Very well. I
22 see you have an assistant with you. Perhaps you could
23 introduce her to us.
24 MR. NICE: Ms. Reynders, the case manager,
25 has been with us throughout, and indeed she's here
2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you very
4 Turning to the Defence, please, would you
5 identify yourselves?
6 MR. LONDROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
7 I am the Defence counsel for Mr. Jelisic, along with my
8 colleague, Mr. Greaves. My name is Mr. Londrovic, and
9 we have an interpreter with us from the secretariat,
10 Mrs. Meliha Zivkovic.
11 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 I want to say for the public gallery that we
13 are now beginning the sentencing hearings, after which
14 a sentence will be issued by this Trial Chamber for Mr.
15 Jelisic, who is sitting to my right, who, as each
16 person knows, has pleaded guilty to crimes against
17 humanity and war crimes.
18 I think that without any further adieu, I can
19 turn to Mr. Greaves or Mr. Londrovic so that they can
20 tell us how the Defence is going to organise its work,
21 since you must take the initiative, and you can now
22 tell us how things are going to be organised.
23 In respect of the various orders that we
24 issued, we set up a framework, that is, a time frame,
25 and that there will also be video conference hearings.
1I would like to recall, for the sake of the
2 public, that this is going to be held in public except
3 when the witness is brought into the courtroom, because
4 he is protected. After that, we will raise the
6 Mr. Greaves, you may proceed.
7 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, yes. I'm going to
8 call witnesses who are present in The Hague, who are
9 going to be called into the courtroom this afternoon.
10 Tomorrow morning, as Your Honour knows, there
11 is a period when we're going to deal with some
12 videolink witnesses. That, I hope, we shall complete,
13 subject to the technical problems that may arise, in
14 the morning, and then in the afternoon we shall
15 continue with live witnesses.
16 I understand that on Wednesday, there will be
17 a further session of two witnesses to be heard.
18 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you very
20 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, we have no
21 transcript emerging on our screens.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 MR. GREAVES: Can I draw Your Honour's
24 attention to the fact that we have no transcript coming
25 through on our computers on the Defence side.
1THE COURT REPORTER: It will just be a
2 moment, Sir, or possibly a few more minutes, but it
3 will all come up.
4 MR. GREAVES: Thank you.
5 Without delaying matters any further, I would
6 ask Witness DJ to come into the court, please.
7 [The witness entered court]
8 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Do you hear me,
9 Witness? First of all, do you hear me in your own
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I hear
13 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] You're going to
14 nod to tell us whether the name on the piece of paper
15 we're showing you is yours. Make sure it is you.
16 Don't say your name. Simply say that it is you.
17 All right. Very well. Now you're going to
18 take an oath. Please remain standing for a few more
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly
21 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,
22 and nothing but the truth.
23 WITNESS: WITNESS DJ
24 [Witness answered through interpreter]
25 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you. You
1may now be seated.
2 Witness DJ -- that's what we're going to call
3 you -- you are being covered by protective measures,
4 very strict ones, measures that were asked for by the
5 Defence, and you have come to testify during the
6 sentencing hearings being conducted against Mr.
7 Jelisic, who is in this courtroom to your left.
8 First of all, you're going to be asked
9 questions by Defence counsel, Mr. Greaves, and then
10 questions will be put to you by the Prosecution.
11 Mr. Greaves, you may proceed. We can raise
12 the blinds.
13 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much, Your
15 Examined by Mr. Greaves:
16 Q. Witness DJ, can you tell Their Honours,
17 please, what is your ethnic background, please?
18 A. I'm a Muslim.
19 Q. And can you tell us, please, when it was that
20 you first, during the course of your life, got to know
21 Goran Jelisic?
22 A. I have known Goran for many years, from
23 elementary school and secondary school.
24 Q. When you first got to know him, was that as a
25 friend or as an acquaintance with whom you would
1exchange greetings but perhaps no more than that?
2 A. A little more than an acquaintance.
3 Q. Did there come a time when you could describe
4 yourself as a friend of Goran Jelisic?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And at what age were you when you became his
8 A. Well, I can't tell you exactly.
9 Q. Were you still at school or had you left
11 A. I was still at school.
12 Q. And the group of friends of which you were
13 one, what was the ethnic mix of that? Was it
14 exclusively Muslim, or exclusively Serb, or how would
15 you describe his group of friends?
16 A. Most of them were Muslims, but it was a mixed
18 Q. Did your friendship continue with Goran
19 Jelisic up until the war that broke out in 1992?
20 A. Yes, it did.
21 Q. And prior to the war breaking out, did you
22 ever hear Goran Jelisic expressing anti-Muslim views,
23 extremist views that expressed hate towards Muslims?
24 A. No.
25 Q. If he had done so, could you have remained
2 A. I cannot believe that he did that, and he's a
3 friend for life, as far as I'm concerned.
4 Q. Upon the outbreak of fighting in your
5 hometown, Witness DJ, can you tell us, first of all,
6 what the date when that fighting broke out was?
7 A. On the 1st of April.
8 Q. And when the fighting broke out, did you take
9 any part in military operations of any kind?
10 A. I felt the need to defend my town, and I was
11 up at the barricades.
12 Q. And were those barricades that were set up by
13 organised military forces or by ad hoc groups of
14 civilians? How were they set up?
15 A. A group of civilians.
16 Q. And the people on those barricades, were they
17 in possession of firearms?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you have a weapon?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. How long did you remain on the barricades
22 for, Witness DJ?
23 A. Three to four days.
24 Q. And at the end of that three to four days,
25 did you retain your weapon, or what happened to the
2 A. The Serbs asked us to hand over our weapons,
3 and we did so.
4 Q. In the week after the weapons had been handed
5 over, were there any problems for you personally
6 because of what you had done?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. What was the nature of those problems?
9 A. I was mistreated, taken in. And people were
10 even killed, those who had taken part at the
12 Q. As a result of what you became aware of, did
13 you have any fears for your personal safety?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. What did you think might happen to you
16 because of your activities on the barricades?
17 A. Probably murder.
18 Q. Without telling us any names, Witness DJ,
19 apart from yourself, were there other members of your
20 immediate family living in your hometown?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did you discuss with them what you should do
23 as a result of your fears?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Having discussed it with them, what was the
1conclusion to which you came, what was the decision to
2 which you came?
3 A. That I had to flee (redacted).
4 Q. And as a result of taking that decision, did
5 you discuss with anybody outside your family what you
6 should do?
7 A. Yes, with a friend of mine, and I don't wish
8 to state his name.
9 Q. I don't want to ask you his name. Was he a
10 Muslim, or a Serb, or what ethnic group was he from?
11 A. He was a Serb.
12 Q. And did that person give you any help to flee
13 the town?
14 A. No. Quite the contrary. He refused.
15 Q. He refused. The person to whom you turned,
16 was he a very close friend?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. How did you feel, that your close friend had
19 let you down in this way?
20 A. Well, I felt terrible. Well, I felt
22 Q. At this time, were you taking any measures to
23 keep out of the way of possible trouble?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. What were you doing to avoid trouble,
2 A. When I saw the police, I fled and took refuge
3 with my father-in-law.
4 Q. Can you remember, how long after the ending
5 of the barricades did the police officers come?
6 A. About seven days.
7 Q. Did you give any instructions as to what
8 should be told to the police if they came to your home?
9 A. Yes, I told my father and my family.
10 Q. What did you tell to your father and family
11 to do?
12 A. I told them to say that they didn't know
13 where I was and that I hadn't been home for several
15 Q. Did you reach the home of your
17 A. Yes, I did.
18 Q. When you got to the home of your
19 father-in-law, what part of the house did you go to?
20 A. The basement.
21 Q. How long did you remain in the basement?
22 A. Several hours.
23 Q. Whilst you were in the basement, did a member
24 of your family come to the house?
25 A. No.
1Q. Are you married, Witness DJ? Don't tell us,
2 if you are, what your wife's name is, but are you
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. When did you next see your wife after you had
6 fled your home and gone to hide in the cellar of your
8 A. After I had come back from the town.
9 Q. When you next --
10 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Greaves, I
11 don't want the witness to have to tell us his entire
12 life. Don't forget that these are presentencing
13 hearings. I think that you're trying to demonstrate
14 mitigating circumstances, but I would like for the
15 discussion to be focused. I would like to take the
16 liberty of reminding you of that.
17 Please continue.
18 MR. GREAVES:
19 Q. Witness DJ, when you next saw your wife, did
20 she tell you of any conversation that she had had with
22 A. Yes, she did.
23 Q. With whom did your wife tell you she had
25 A. With Goran Jelisic.
1Q. Did she tell you how the conversation had
2 come about?
3 A. Yes, she did.
4 Q. And what was the nature of the conversation
5 she had had with Goran Jelisic?
6 A. My wife met Goran Jelisic in town. Goran
7 asked her how I was, and she said that I was having
8 problems and that I needed help.
9 Q. As a result of that conversation, did you get
10 in touch with Goran Jelisic at all?
11 A. Yes, I did.
12 Q. When you telephoned him -- did you meet him,
13 or telephone him?
14 A. He came to my father-in-law's house.
15 Q. And when he came to your father-in-law's
16 house, did you tell him what had happened to you?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. As a result of telling him what had happened
19 to you, what did Goran Jelisic do?
20 A. He offered to take us, and he said that we
21 would be safe with him.
22 Q. Did you accept that offer?
23 A. I thought about it.
24 Q. How long did you think about it for?
25 A. Yes.
1Two to three hours.
2 Q. And having thought about it, did you decide
3 to take up the offer?
4 A. Yes, we did, because there was no other way
5 out for us.
6 Q. And as a result of that, where did you go to?
7 A. We went to Goran's house.
8 Q. First of all, how long in all did you spend
9 at Goran's house?
10 A. Seven days, seven to eight days, thereabouts.
11 Q. And during the time you were at Goran's
12 house, did you see much of Goran himself?
13 A. Yes, I did. To my surprise, I was
14 exceptionally satisfied.
15 Q. And just to make it clear, was he aware that
16 you were being sought by the police for having been on
17 the barricades?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Apart from Goran Jelisic, were other members
20 of his family in the house?
21 A. Yes, his father, his mother, and his sister.
22 Q. During the time you were at Goran Jelisic's
23 house, did you become aware of information concerning
24 other members of your family?
25 A. Yes.
1Q. And without, again, telling us any names, but
2 did you hear it from a friend, or from a particular
3 relation of yours?
4 A. From my father-in-law.
5 Q. And again, without telling us names, was what
6 the nature of the information about members of your
7 family that you received?
8 A. My friend in the meantime had gone to (redacted)
9 (redacted), to his wife's place, and he was taken prisoner
10 there with his child, and they forced him to have me
12 Q. Did you in fact surrender, or did you think
13 about surrendering?
14 A. Well, I thought about surrendering, yes.
15 Q. Did you discuss that with Goran Jelisic?
16 A. I did, and he told me not to surrender but to
18 Q. Did he give you a reason why he thought you
19 should wait?
20 A. Because my brother and his child had done
21 nothing wrong and that they would have to release them.
22 Q. Did you accept that advice?
23 A. Yes, I did.
24 Q. Were those people eventually released?
25 A. Yes, they were, because the inhabitants of
1 (redacted) went to help my brother.
2 Q. Did you have any discussions with Goran
3 Jelisic about any further plans for leaving the area?
4 A. Yes, I did.
5 Q. What did Goran Jelisic tell you about those
7 A. He said he would help me and do everything in
8 his power to.
9 Q. As a result of these discussions, did you go
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Where did you go to?
13 A. To Brcko.
14 Q. Did you go to Brcko by a direct route, or did
15 you have to go by an indirect route?
16 A. Well, half the time I used the indirect road
17 and the other half the main road.
18 Q. Was there a particular reason why you had to
19 go on an indirect route?
20 A. Of course.
21 Q. And what was that reason?
22 A. Well, had we been stopped by the police, I
23 think that they would have killed Goran and me
25 Q. And why was Goran Jelisic at risk of being
1killed in these circumstances?
2 A. Well, probably because he had a good heart
3 and was a good man.
4 Q. When you got to Brcko, did you go somewhere
5 in particular in Brcko?
6 A. Yes, Goran went to a friend, and I don't know
7 his name to this day.
8 Q. And were arrangements made for you to leave
10 A. Yes. This man promised that he would take us
11 off to Gunja.
12 Q. Did you have a discussion of any kind with
13 Goran Jelisic about recompensing him in any way for the
14 efforts that he'd made for you?
15 A. Yes, I offered him money, but he emphatically
17 Q. While you were awaiting your opportunity to
18 leave Bosnia-Herzegovina, were you able to make any
19 arrangements for anybody else to leave with you?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Again, don't give us any names, but were they
22 members of your family, or were they friends, or what
23 relation did they stand to you?
24 A. They were members of my family.
25 Q. Having made those arrangements, did those
1members of the family come to Brcko?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. In due course, did you manage to cross into
5 A. Yes, I did.
6 Q. And apart from you, was that all the members
7 of your family for whom arrangements had been made?
8 Did they go at the same time?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And can you remember the date upon which you
11 left Bosnia-Herzegovina?
12 A. The 20th of April, we crossed to Gunja.
13 Q. In due course, did you become a refugee
14 outside the former Yugoslavia?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you remain in contact with Goran Jelisic
17 once you had become a refugee?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you contact him by phone, or by letter?
20 A. By phone.
21 Q. Did you have any further discussion with him
22 on any of those occasions about recompense for what he
23 had done?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And again, what was his reaction on that
1occasion to the suggestion?
2 A. He didn't even want to hear about it, and he
3 said that I would have helped him had he been in that
4 kind of situation.
5 Q. Now, you've told us that some members of your
6 family were able to leave in April 1992, but did any
7 members of your family remain behind?
8 A. Yes, my sister and my father.
9 Q. Did you remain in contact with your sister
10 and father?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Was that by telephone?
13 A. Yes, but using a neighbour's phone, because
14 we didn't have one in our own house.
15 Q. Were you able to speak to your sister?
16 A. Yes, but only the basic sort of
18 Q. Did you learn if Goran Jelisic had paid any
19 visits or made any contact with your sister or your
21 A. Yes, on several occasions, Goran went to
22 visit my father and sister. He would bring them
23 cigarettes and coffee and sugar.
24 Q. From your sister and from your father, did
25 you become aware of a change in the population of
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What was the nature of the change of
5 A. There was a great influx of refugees, and
6 they had to leave their town.
7 Q. And were those refugees, were they Muslim, or
8 were they Serb refugees?
9 A. Serbs.
10 Q. Did your sister and your father experience
11 any problems as a result of the influx of these
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What was the nature of those problems?
15 A. They came and threatened them, mistreated
16 them, to make them leave their house.
17 Q. As a result of hearing about that, did you
18 contact Goran Jelisic at all?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. As a result of that contact, were any
21 arrangements made in respect of your father?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. At that time, how old was your father?
24 A. He was 70.
25 Q. And was he in good health at that time?
2 Q. In due course, did your father succeed in
3 leaving Bosnia-Herzegovina?
4 A. Yes, he did.
5 Q. What about your sister?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And did they in fact leave the former
8 Yugoslavia completely and come and live with you?
9 A. Yes, they did.
10 Q. And from them, did you learn how it was they
11 had managed to leave Bosnia-Herzegovina?
12 A. Yes, thanks to Goran Jelisic.
13 Q. And how was it that Goran Jelisic had managed
14 to effect their escape?
15 A. Goran is a passionate fisherman, and he took
16 them across the Drina River.
17 Q. Did he help any other members of your family
18 at that time?
19 A. Yes. He helped my uncle and aunt.
20 Q. How did he help them?
21 A. He took them, together with my father and
22 sister, to Serbia.
23 Q. And in which year did this all take place,
24 Witness DJ?
25 A. This was in '93.
1Q. Is it within your knowledge as to whether
2 helping people of Muslim ethnicity at that time still
3 presented a risk to the life of Goran Jelisic?
4 A. Yes, it did. It exposed them to great
6 Q. Do you know if any money was offered to Goran
7 Jelisic to carry out the escape of your father and
9 A. Yes. I offered money to him. Goran
10 emphatically declined, and he never took a single penny
11 from us.
12 Q. I think your father died eventually in 1997,
13 Witness DJ. Did he have anything to say on the subject
14 of Goran Jelisic before he died?
15 A. Yes. He requested that we never forget
16 Goran, because if it weren't for him, maybe half of my
17 family wouldn't be alive today.
18 Q. And by that time, were you and your family,
19 as a whole, aware that accusations had been levelled
20 against him in respect of serious crimes?
21 A. I couldn't believe, and I, to this day, still
22 don't believe that this man could have done that.
23 Q. Witness DJ, he's pleaded guilty before the
24 Tribunal to committing a number of murders and other
25 offences, and the victims were, in fact, Muslims. Does
1that knowledge in any way change your opinion of him?
2 A. No. He is a friend to me, and he will remain
3 my friend.
4 Q. Witness DJ, will you please wait there and
5 answer any questions which may be asked of you?
6 A. Yes.
7 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you,
8 Mr. Greaves. I would like to congratulate you for
9 having been so concise and having gone directly to the
10 core of the testimony that you wanted to bring out.
11 Mr. Nice, you now ask the questions.
12 Witness DJ, you're going to answer the
13 Prosecutor's questions.
14 Cross-examined by Mr. Nice:
15 Q. The incidents in Bijeljina occurred in which
17 A. April.
18 Q. Everything of which you have spoken
19 concerning your own escape occurred before the bridges
20 were blown in Brcko?
21 A. The bridge in Brcko, in Gunja, was half
22 destroyed by that time.
23 Q. There was still access between Brcko and
24 Croatia at the time of your escape, for there was still
25 part of the bridge left standing?
2 Q. Before the incidents in Bijeljina, you were
3 aware of Goran Jelisic's criminal activities?
4 A. I was not aware of criminal activities of
5 Goran Jelisic. I knew him, but we were not best
7 Q. You knew nothing of his going to court?
8 A. Something -- a little bit, I did.
9 Q. You knew nothing of the sentence of
10 imprisonment imposed on him?
11 A. No.
12 Q. And he never mentioned that to you?
13 A. I frequently went out -- went to Germany and
14 Austria, so perhaps that happened at the time while I
15 was abroad.
16 Q. What were you doing in Germany and Austria?
17 A. In Germany, I worked in Baustelle.
18 Q. Sorry, I don't understand.
19 A. Building construction.
20 Q. I see. How much of your time were you
21 spending in Germany and Austria before the incidents at
22 Bijeljina? Most of your time?
23 A. Not a majority of time. I would go there for
24 about two or three months.
25 Q. Coming up to date, are you still living in
2 A. No.
3 Q. You say that you moved from Bijeljina to
4 Brcko sometimes on a main road, sometimes elsewhere.
5 Are you saying that Jelisic was with you all the time?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What date was that?
8 A. I think it was the 19th, because there was
9 this huge panic.
10 Q. The 19th was the day that you, what, left
11 Bijeljina, the 19th of April?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. The journey along the road, did that involve
14 passing checkpoints?
15 A. No. Goran went around.
16 Q. So at that stage, Goran Jelisic had enough
17 information to know how to get around the checkpoints,
18 did he?
19 A. I don't know if he had sufficient
20 information, but he did know those indirect roads well.
21 Q. He had more knowledge than you?
22 A. Most probably.
23 Q. Did he tell you where he got that knowledge?
24 A. Well, we all know Bijeljina and its
25 surroundings. I never asked him.
1Q. Did he tell you whether he was already
2 involved with the Serbian authorities at that stage?
3 A. No. At that moment when he was helping me,
4 he was not involved.
5 Q. So you discovered that he was involved with
6 the authorities at a later stage, did you?
7 A. I heard something to that effect.
8 Q. What did he tell you about his getting
9 involved with the Serbian authorities? Did he tell you
10 about it on this trip through to Croatia?
11 A. Goran did not go with me to Croatia, only as
12 far as Brcko.
13 Q. In Brcko, how long did he stay with you?
14 A. A short period of time.
15 Q. Days, hours, weeks?
16 A. Maybe an hour, hour and a half.
17 Q. And he, what, had contacts in Brcko at that
18 stage to help you move on to Croatia?
19 A. Yes, he did, but it was just a plain man.
20 Q. You say "just a plain man." We may not want
21 to identify the man, but did the man have some
22 particular power or authority that he was able to get
23 you out of Brcko and into Croatia?
24 A. No, he wasn't highly placed. He was just an
25 ordinary man who lived in that city, and he knew the
1crossing to Gunja.
2 Q. The crossing to Gunja, just help us, is that
3 across the bridge that was still standing or is that
4 another way?
5 A. Across the bridge. The bridge was half
6 destroyed, and then the rest was something that was
7 just made up.
8 Q. So that Jelisic stayed with you for a time,
9 handed you over to his friend, and then where did
10 Jelisic go?
11 A. He went home.
12 Q. Along the same dangerous road?
13 A. I don't know. I don't know which roads he
15 Q. He hadn't, by now, told you anything of his
16 contact with Serbian authorities. When did you learn
17 about those contacts?
18 A. From newspapers and television.
19 Q. How much later?
20 A. A fair amount later.
21 Q. Of course, by the time in 1993 when you tell
22 us that other members of your family were assisted,
23 Jelisic was known to be a wanted man, wasn't he?
24 A. I don't know.
25 Q. He was known to have been suspected of
1committing these crimes in Brcko, wasn't he?
2 A. Maybe you were aware of that, but I was busy
3 working all day, so I simply wasn't interested in it.
4 Q. The area you live in now, is it a Serb area?
5 A. The city used to be a Muslim -- mostly
6 inhabited by Muslims, but the surrounding towns were
7 mostly inhabited by Serbs.
8 Q. And at present, they are mostly inhabited by
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Are those Serb authorities aware that you're
12 here today? Just "yes" or "no".
13 A. No.
14 Q. We only have your name, which mustn't be
15 given publicly; we have no other details of you. Are
16 you content to provide the Prosecution with your date
17 of birth -- you don't have to, and if you do, it can be
18 provided on a piece of paper -- or not?
19 A. Well, for my own security, I would rather not
20 do it. But if it is a requirement, then no problem.
21 Q. The word "balija" uttered against a Muslim
22 would be extremely offensive, wouldn't it?
23 A. Depends for whom.
24 Q. For the Muslim.
25 A. I am from a mixed marriage, I'm only half
1Muslim, so --
2 Q. The other half of your ethnic background
3 being what?
4 A. My wife is a Serb.
5 Q. I repeat. Using the word "balija,"
6 especially in an abusive way against Muslims, would be
7 highly offensive, wouldn't it?
8 A. Well, yes.
9 Q. Muslims being forced or compelled to sing
10 Serbian songs would be a highly-offensive thing to do,
11 wouldn't it?
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. NICE: Thank you.
14 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you,
15 Mr. Nice.
16 Mr. Greaves.
17 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, I would like to
18 deal with one matter in private session, please, if I
20 THE REGISTRAR: We are in private session.
21 [Private session]
17 [Open session]
18 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Please
19 continue, Mr. Greaves.
20 MR. GREAVES:
21 Q. Witness DJ, you were asked by counsel for the
22 Prosecution about when it was you learnt that Goran
23 Jelisic had been involved in any way with the Serbian
24 authorities, and I think the answer that you gave was
25 that it was much later. Can you be any more specific
1as to when the first time you learnt of his
2 participation in any -- or allegations of his
3 participation in any sort of criminal -- crimes of
5 A. I couldn't give you an exact date. I learned
6 things from the newspapers, and that's really all.
7 Q. Was that after the escape of your father?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MR. GREAVES: I have no further questions in
11 re-examination. Do Your Honours have any questions for
12 the witness, please?
13 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I'll ask the
14 question -- Judge Riad, did you have a question?
15 First Judge Riad is going to ask some
16 questions that he wants to ask.
17 Questioned by the Court:
18 JUDGE RIAD: Witness DJ, good afternoon.
19 A. Good afternoon.
20 JUDGE RIAD: I understood from your answers
21 that Mr. Jelisic saved half of your family in the way
22 you described, after saving you, of course, and in the
23 meantime, in one of your answers to the Prosecutor, you
24 said that you knew him but you were not best friends.
25 What made Mr. Jelisic so keen on saving you and your
1family, and what made you so confident to accept his
2 help, and you knew that you might be trapped, it could
3 be a trap? You were very confident in his help, and
4 apparently he did save your -- half of your family.
5 And you were not best friends, so I feel some kind of
6 missing link here.
7 Yes, please.
8 A. Let me answer you. I know Goran Jelisic. We
9 frequently sat in cafes, talked about sports and
10 about girls. We never talked about ethnic issues.
11 I did not really have a choice. Goran was
12 the only one who offered to help me. There was, of
13 course, a possibility that that would be a trap, but
14 that could also be a salvation, and I had no choice, so
15 I had to accept it. And in the end, it ended well, and
16 I'm very grateful to him.
17 JUDGE RIAD: Good. Perhaps you can help me,
18 then, understand more. You said, of course, you don't
19 know if he helped other people, too. Did he help other
20 people, other Muslims around you, to your knowledge?
21 Was it some kind of generous attitude towards the
22 Muslims, helping whom he can, even though they were not
23 his best friends?
24 A. Yes, I know that.
25 JUDGE RIAD: You know that. Now, was this
1addressed particularly to those who were mixed
2 marriages, as you said? You said you were half a
3 Muslim, and you said that you have a Serbian wife, but
4 that does not make you half a Muslim. Is one of your
5 parents a Serb? Not only your wife?
6 A. None of my parents are Serbs. I'm a Muslim,
7 but I do not have strong feelings about it. We are
8 Europeans, and I don't think that there are great
9 differences between people.
10 JUDGE RIAD: I'm not asking your opinion; I'm
11 asking you the reason why you said you are half a
12 Muslim. Because your wife is a Serb; is that right?
13 A. Yes. Yes.
14 JUDGE RIAD: Do you think this is the reason
15 why Mr. Jelisic took the trouble to risk his life to
16 save you?
17 A. I was in such great danger, my life was
18 threatened, at risk. And Goran, as a very good
19 acquaintance, helped me, and that was the reason.
20 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.
21 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Judge
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good
24 afternoon, Witness DJ. I have a few questions I would
25 like to ask.
1You said that you met Mr. Jelisic in school.
2 After school, about how many times did you meet
3 Mr. Jelisic?
4 A. Bijelina was a small town. We would meet
5 frequently. Most often we would sit in a cafe near his
6 house, drink, and talk about girls and sports and
7 topics like that.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] All of that
9 when you were not abroad? I mean, you were not in
10 Germany and you were not in Austria; is that correct?
11 A. Yes, between -- between my absences.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Bijelina,
13 as you say, is a small town. Did you know what
14 Mr. Jelisic did for work?
15 A. For a while, he worked in a company in Novo
16 Selo, (redacted). And as far as the rest
17 of his career is concerned, I'm not aware.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] At the
19 moment, at that time when Mr. Jelisic helped you, do
20 you know what he was doing? Do you know what kind of
21 work he was doing at that time?
22 A. As far as I know, he did not work at the
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Did
25 Mr. Jelisic help other people in the same way that he
2 A. Yes. Yes.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What was
4 those people's ethnic background?
5 A. Muslims.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Those are
7 my questions. Thank you very much.
8 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you,
9 Witness DJ. Your testimony is complete. The Tribunal
10 thanks you for having answered Mr. Greaves' summons,
11 Mr. Greaves who was Mr. Jelisic's Defence counsel.
12 We're going to take a break, which will allow
13 the witness to be escorted out of the courtroom. We
14 will take a break for 20 minutes.
15 --- Recess taken at 3.43 p.m.
16 --- On resuming at 4.28 p.m.
17 [Closed session]
13 pages 2407-2440 redacted closed session
21 [The witness withdrew]
22 --- Recess taken at 5.32 p.m.
23 [The witness entered court]
24 --- On resuming at 5.44 p.m.
25 [Open session]
1JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Could we resume
2 the hearing.
3 Have the witness brought in, please.
4 [The witness entered court]
5 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] This is the
6 Presiding Judge speaking to you, sir.
7 First, see if this is, in fact, your name on
8 the document which is being shown to you. Don't state
9 your name. Is that, in fact, your name and your --
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
11 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Very well.
12 Please take an oath now, and then after that, you may
13 be seated.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly
15 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,
16 and nothing but the truth.
17 WITNESS: WITNESS DK
18 [Witness answered through interpreter]
19 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you. You
20 may be seated now, Witness DK.
21 Mr. Greaves must have explained to you how
22 all of this is going to work. Do not be afraid. Speak
23 without any fear. You are in front of Judges.
24 Mr. Greaves will start by asking you some
25 questions because you are a Defence witness, well, in
1favour of the accused who is sitting at your left, and
2 then it will be the Prosecutor asking you questions,
3 and finally the Judges will ask some questions too.
4 Mr. Greaves, you may begin.
5 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much.
6 Examined by Mr. Greaves:
7 Q. Witness DK, would you tell us, please, what
8 is your ethnic background?
9 A. I'm a Croat.
10 Q. And would you please tell us what your home
11 town is?
12 A. I live in the town of Brcko.
13 Q. And were you living in Brcko in 1992?
14 A. Yes, I was. I was born on the territory of
15 the town of Brcko and have lived in the centre of town
16 since 1962.
17 Q. I want to ask you, in particular, about May
19 MR. GREAVES: Would Your Honours give me a
20 moment, please.
21 MR. LONDROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
22 I apologise for interrupting my learned colleague
23 Mr. Greaves, but could Goran Jelisic leave for five
24 minutes? He has some stomach pains.
25 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Goran Jelisic,
1the trial is going to continue, with your agreement and
2 the agreement of the lawyers that it can go on without
3 you for five minutes.
4 All right, guards, take him out.
5 But in any case, the hearings will stop at
6 6.00 today and will resume tomorrow morning.
7 The guards can take Goran Jelisic out of the
8 courtroom, and during that time we will continue.
9 Please continue now, Mr. Greaves.
10 MR. LONDROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,
11 Your Honour.
12 [The accused withdrew]
13 MR. GREAVES:
14 Q. Witness DK, I was going to ask you about May
15 1992. Did you remain at home throughout the period of
16 May 1992?
17 A. The whole month, and I'm there now. I never
18 went anywhere, and I was there throughout the war.
19 Q. And this may seem like an obvious question,
20 but did you become aware of the fighting that was
21 taking place in your town in May of 1992?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Without telling us what the area of Brcko is
24 in which you live, is that an area which is of mixed
25 ethnicity in terms -- in May 1992, was it of mixed
1ethnicity, in terms of its residents, or was it of one
2 single racial group?
3 A. (redacted)
6 Q. During May 1992, were any searches conducted
7 by the police in your immediate area?
8 A. Yes, and my house was ransacked too. The war
9 began on the 1st of May, and on the 3rd, large-scale
10 fighting broke out. On the 5th, the police came to
11 search all the houses, looking for weapons, asking
12 whether there were any people who were not there
13 previously and so on.
14 Q. Was Goran Jelisic amongst those police
15 officers who conducted that search? Who conducted that
17 A. No.
18 Q. Prior to May 1992, had you ever met Goran
20 A. No, I never met him until the 8th of May.
21 Q. When you met him on the 8th of May, what was
22 he doing?
23 A. On the 8th of May, he was walking around with
24 a girl that is a relative of mine, and they were
25 walking up my street, which is called (redacted)
1 (redacted). And as that particular girl -- I'm her
2 uncle, that is -- asked me whether they could stop for
3 a cup of coffee, I said they could. I didn't know who
4 Goran was. I just saw a young man of medium height.
5 They were more or less the same age, and they were
6 dating for a day or two, perhaps, before that, but I
7 saw him for the first time on May the 8th. He was in
8 my yard.
9 May I continue?
10 Q. Just pause there. When you first saw him,
11 was he in civilian clothing, or police uniform or
12 anything like that?
13 A. No, he was wearing a police uniform of an
14 olive-green colour. He had no cap on his head. He had
15 a pistol on his -- and he had a baton. He didn't have
16 a cap. He had no rank of any kind, and the pistol was
17 attached to his belt.
18 Q. The relative of yours with whom he was going
19 out, did she also live nearby?
25 Q. Did the girl and Goran Jelisic ever come to
1your house during May 1992?
2 A. Yes, they did.
3 Q. And did you have an opportunity to get to
4 know Goran Jelisic during those meetings?
5 A. I asked the boy -- he's a boy for me because
6 he's young -- where he was from, and he said he was
7 from Bijelina, and he said his name was Goran Jelisic.
8 So I asked him what Milorad and Borka Jelisic were to
9 him, (redacted), and he
10 said "That is my uncle and aunt." Borka is a teacher,
11 and his uncle is a lawyer.
12 Q. In May 1992, were you able to see Goran
13 Jelisic with other people who lived in your area and
14 the way in which he approached them?
15 A. Goran used to walk alone mostly, and he went
16 with this relative of mine to Bijelina. He took her
17 home, and he would come to my place in the afternoon
18 for a cup of coffee. And this was between the 8th and
19 10th of May, 1992.
20 Q. If you can just help me, please, did you see
21 him with any of your neighbours and the way in which he
22 spoke and addressed them?
23 A. Yes. He would come up to my neighbours'.
2 (redacted), and he would talk to all of
3 them, but I didn't notice anything bad.
4 Q. If I can ask you this, was his conduct
5 towards them what you would describe as proper conduct,
6 or did he insult them in any way, make reference to
7 their racial background or anything like that?
8 A. No, he did not. On the contrary, my
9 neighbour Mustafa said that he offered to do anything
10 for him if he needed this, any food or clothing or
11 footwear. And Esad said that too. He
12 said to me, "Uncle [redacted], do you need anything?"
13 And I said I didn't need a thing, because in 1992, at
14 the beginning of the year, we had everything.
15 Q. Did you hear any complaint from anybody in
16 your neighbourhood about his conduct?
17 A. During that time and my meetings with Goran,
18 nobody had any complaints to make in all the three
19 streets which surrounded my own.
20 Q. When you spoke with him, did he talk at any
21 stage of the work that he was doing at that time?
22 A. Yes; that is to say, I asked him. I said I
23 saw that he was a policeman, and I knew that the army
24 had come from Bijelina and that they had set up a
25 front, and he said that he was a reserve policeman.
1That's what he said.
2 Q. Did he give you any detail of what his job
3 entailed, what his job involved doing?
4 A. Well, the police -- well, many armies walked
5 about; there was fighting going on. And I didn't even
6 dare ask him any details, because I'm an elderly
7 citizen, I'm a pensioner, and I was just interested in
8 my own family and my own neighbourhood. And what the
9 police and army did, I didn't even dare ask.
10 Q. Did there come a time in May 1992 after which
11 you stopped seeing Goran Jelisic?
12 A. When I stopped seeing Goran was when I
13 stopped seeing him at all, and I heard nothing of him
14 later on. This was between the 10th and 11th. He came
15 to me at 3.30 in the afternoon, but it wasn't the Goran
16 Jelisic that I had first met. He was exhausted, he was
17 nervous, he wasn't in a good mood.
18 May I continue?
19 Q. Yes. Just describe his demeanour to us.
20 A. Well, he came, and as usual, I offered him
21 some coffee. I have good plum brandy, too, and I have
22 my own, but he never wanted any plum brandy.
23 When I gave him a cup of coffee, my relative,
24 Marija, would come from across the road, and I would
25 ask him, "What's the matter, Goran?" Because he looked
2 And he said, "Well, it's bad, Uncle
3 [redacted]." And I said, "Well, what's bad, Goran?
4 Can you tell me?" And he said, "Well, the authorities
5 in Brcko are making me do some bad business, dirty
6 business." And I said, "Well, Goran, don't do that.
7 Leave, flee."
8 MR. NICE: Two things: First, this is not
9 foreshadowed in the summary. Second, there is
10 objection in principle of any second-hand account of
11 what Jelisic was doing when it's open to him to give
12 evidence himself. These are matters merely in relation
13 to character and mitigation, and what we are hearing
14 now is second-hand, something that could come from the
15 defendant himself. And there is no grounds for
16 admitting it in this form. We object to this
18 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] As regards the
19 summary, yes, it was short, and that's true, Mr. Nice,
20 but for the time being we have the summary that we
21 have. The one from the Defence is very concise.
22 Sometimes yours did not always match what was going
23 on. I think that they have to be taken as working
25 As regards the questions, for the time being,
1I really cannot agree with what you said secondly, that
2 is, with your objection. I think that the hearsay
3 testimony, which, as you know, in various systems is
4 accepted, more or less. Each party in this Tribunal
5 has been able to deal with the issue of hearsay,
6 including the Prosecution.
7 Therefore, for the time being, I think that
8 the witness is justified in saying, in favour of the
9 accused, that he had received his niece and that
10 apparently she had a relatively close relationship with
11 Jelisic; and I think that for the time being, at least,
12 we can continue with that question.
13 In any case, I would suggest that perhaps,
14 since it's now 6.00, that we should resume tomorrow
15 morning at 10.00.
16 Court stands adjourned.
17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
18 6.00 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,
19 the 9th day of November, 1999, at
20 10.00 a.m.