1 10th November, 1999
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 10.05 a.m.
4 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Please be
5 seated.
6 Mr. Registrar, have the accused brought in,
7 please.
8 [The accused entered court]
9 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We can now
10 resume our work.
11 I would like to say good morning to the
12 interpreters and make sure everybody is at his or her
13 station, as usual.
14 Good morning. Everyone is here. The Defence
15 is here, the Prosecution, the accused is here. The
16 Judges are also here, and that's important, and so we
17 can begin.
18 Mr. Greaves, I give the floor to you for the
19 next witness.
20 MR. GREAVES: Thank you. I call Witness DA,
21 please.
22 [The witness entered court]
23 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Do you hear me,
24 Witness DA? We're going to call you "DA". Do you hear
25 me? Please turn to the Presiding Judge. I'm speaking
1 to you. Do you hear me? Do you see me?
2 Good morning. I'm the Presiding Judge. For
3 the time being, I'm the Presiding Judge. All right.
4 Please try to relax. First you're going to be sure
5 that your name is the one that's on this document that
6 is being given to you. Don't state it. Simply check
7 to see that it is, in fact, your name.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's
9 me.
10 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Remain standing
11 to take an oath. You're going to read the oath which
12 is being given to you.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly
14 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,
15 and nothing but the truth.
16 WITNESS: WITNESS DA
17 [Witness answered through interpreter]
18 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you. You
19 may now be seated.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Please sit
22 down. Make yourself comfortable. Try and relax.
23 You're in front of Judges. You have nothing to fear.
24 You are being protected by measures which are taken at
25 the request of the Defence for you, and you're going to
1 answer Mr. Greaves' question, who is Defence counsel
2 for Goran Jelisic, who is in this courtroom on your
3 left. Then you will answer the Prosecutor's questions,
4 and finally those of the Judges.
5 Mr. Greaves, please proceed.
6 Examined by Mr. Greaves:
7 Q. Witness DA, could you tell us, please, what
8 your ethnic background is?
9 A. I am Macedonian.
10 Q. When did you first meet Goran --
11 MR. GREAVES: I think it's possible that the
12 witness's microphone is not on.
13 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The
14 microphone is connected.
15 MR. GREAVES: Thank you. I'm sorry, I just
16 wanted to make certain all was in order.
17 Q. When did you first meet Goran Jelisic,
18 please, Witness DA?
19 A. In 1988.
20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters apologise,
21 but the microphone is not working properly.
22 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Are you sure
23 that the microphone is working properly? I've got the
24 interpretation.
25 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Yes. Insofar
1 as the voice is being distorted, it isn't the
2 microphone that is usually used but the microphone
3 which is a little bit larger.
4 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes, all
5 right. Can the interpreters hear? Do they hear the
6 answers, do they hear the witness's answers?
7 All right. Everything seems to be in its
8 proper place, Mr. Greaves.
9 MR. GREAVES:
10 Q. How was it that you first met Goran Jelisic?
11 A. I first met Goran at a fishing competition,
12 because my job is linked to that particular sport.
13 Q. And having met him whilst out fishing, did
14 you meet him again on similar occasions?
15 A. Later on, yes.
16 Q. Was Goran Jelisic part of a fishing team for
17 the purposes of these competitions?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What was the ethnic make-up of his team? Was
20 it mixed or one race only; can you help us about that?
21 A. The team was mixed, just as the town of
22 Bijeljina is mixed.
23 Q. Did you, as a result of meeting him through
24 these fishing competitions, become friendly with Goran?
25 A. I became friends with him because Goran grew
1 up in the town where my brother-in-law grew up.
2 Q. I'd like to turn now to the time when the
3 former Yugoslavia began to break up. Did your
4 friendship with him continue?
5 A. Yes, it did.
6 Q. At any time during the course of your
7 friendship with him, did he ever express to you any
8 nationalist or extremist sentiments towards other
9 races?
10 A. He never said anything bad about any of the
11 nationalities. Otherwise, he would not be friends with
12 me and my family, because I belong to a different
13 ethnic group.
14 Q. Did he ever show any interest in politics?
15 A. I never noticed that in Goran.
16 Q. As far as his personal disposition was
17 concerned, was he a happy individual, or sad, or
18 introverted, extraverted? How would you describe him?
19 A. As a young man, Goran was very communicative,
20 a happy man. He liked socialising. That's how I know
21 him, and that's why I was very surprised with all this.
22 Q. As matters began to deteriorate in the former
23 Yugoslavia, did he ever express any views about what
24 was apparently taking place?
25 A. No. He believed that the politicians would
1 settle it all.
2 Q. During the time that you knew him before the
3 war, did he have any girlfriends that you were aware
4 of?
5 A. As far as I remember, Goran had a lot of
6 friends among the Muslims, and he had a girlfriend,
7 too, who was a Muslim.
8 Q. When the war broke out, did you have to do
9 any military service?
10 A. Yes. We were all drafted by the military
11 authorities, and as a citizen, I too was mobilised and
12 was sent to the Majevica front.
13 Q. Between March and December of 1992, did you
14 see Goran at all?
15 A. I did not see Goran during that period of
16 time. Sometime before the new year of 1993, I met him
17 again.
18 Q. Did you resume your old friendship with him
19 at that point?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And did you visit each other's homes?
22 A. Goran would frequently come by with my
23 brother-in-law. I live in the country, in a village,
24 and they are friends from their school days.
25 Q. Had his attitude towards you and your family
1 changed in any way?
2 A. I didn't notice any changes at all, and I had
3 the impression that he was even better in his behaviour
4 towards me, and he asked me whether anybody had
5 insulted me because I was of a different ethnic group,
6 nationality.
7 Q. Did he ever offer you any help or assistance
8 of any kind?
9 A. Yes, he said that if there was anything he
10 could do to help me, he said he would as far as he was
11 able to. I was grateful to him for that, as well as my
12 family, because after all, it was wartime, and I come
13 from a different nationality and lived in that town.
14 Q. Did those offers of assistance, did that
15 impress you?
16 A. Well, like anybody else, you always feel
17 gratified if somebody offers to help you, although I
18 probably didn't expect any help from him because he was
19 not able to do very much, just like any other ordinary
20 person.
21 Q. During your conversations with him, did he
22 express any attitude about the war and what had
23 happened during the war?
24 A. Well, he would say that it was all mindless
25 and futile and that it should be finished as soon as
1 possible; that it was the politicians that started it
2 and that they would profit, whereas the people to
3 suffer were the ordinary people, whereas the rest
4 would -- the politicians would continue to profit from
5 it.
6 Q. Would he remain calm during such
7 conversations, or did the topic upset him in any way?
8 A. I noticed that after that kind of
9 conversation, he would become upset and raise his voice
10 slightly.
11 Q. Were you aware that there had been an element
12 of persecution towards the Muslims in the area?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did Goran ever make any observations about
15 that persecution, that policy?
16 A. I never heard that personally from Goran.
17 Q. I want to turn now to the winter of 1994. Is
18 one of the things that you do at home is to cure meat,
19 Witness DA?
20 A. That particular winter, the winter of 1994,
21 because I had heard the rumours going around which were
22 spreading -- and Bijeljina is a small town, so you can
23 hear everything and hear it quickly -- I learned that
24 allegedly Goran had killed some people. And when we
25 finished our job and when everybody went into the
1 house, the two of us stayed outside alone. While we
2 were putting away the tools, I felt uncomfortable,
3 because I wanted to know if it was true.
4 So I asked Goran. I said, "Goran, is it
5 really true?" And he was a little surprised, when I
6 asked him that, and said, "Uncle [redacted], it is the
7 bitter truth that I really did kill ten people,
8 following orders by certain individuals." And he said,
9 "Because of that I am very sorry, because I don't
10 think those people were guilty of anything." And he
11 said that he hoped that one day everybody would take
12 responsibility for what they had done and for the
13 people who forced me [sic] to do that, too.
14 We ended our conversation there. I was
15 terribly surprised, and I felt very sorry for him.
16 Q. Did he identify anybody who had been
17 responsible for giving him such orders?
18 A. Well, he told me that the chief of SUP in
19 Brcko, where that happened, a certain Dragan -- whether
20 the surname was Veselic, I don't quite remember, and
21 another name that I don't recall because after all, a
22 lot of time has passed since then.
23 Q. Did he say anything of what had happened to
24 him since that time, since the war?
25 A. He did tell me and I heard that he was
1 persecuted, the police, a Davidovic, and he didn't want
2 to go any more. And he even injured himself. He
3 wounded himself in the leg, and he showed me some of
4 his wounds. And I knew that he didn't want to continue
5 to do what he was being forced to do. And as far as I
6 know, for a time he fled to Serbia, as well, to prevent
7 them from capturing him and liquidating him.
8 Q. During the course of what he was telling you,
9 did he remain calm, or did his demeanour change? Was
10 he upset in any way?
11 A. Well, of course he was upset. Anybody would
12 be upset after a conversation of that kind or when
13 you're forced to do things of that kind.
14 Q. Did he say anything to you about the effect
15 which the events of the war had had upon him?
16 A. Well, he said he had no intention of harming
17 anybody, but it transpired that you can lose your head
18 very easily during a war, and that he was forced and
19 pressured into doing what he did.
20 Q. Was there any conversation about any
21 repercussions upon him since these events had happened?
22 A. I don't understand your question, quite.
23 Q. Perhaps I'll move on.
24 Were you surprised by what you had heard from
25 him?
1 A. Of course I was surprised. I didn't expect
2 it from such a nice young man, that it was possible
3 that he could have done anything like that.
4 Q. Before the war, had he ever exhibited any
5 sign whatever that he was someone capable of doing
6 these things?
7 A. As far as I knew him, no. He did not show
8 any such signs. And he was friends with my
9 brother-in-law, as I say, where they grew up, in
10 Bijeljina, which is a small town. Of course rumours go
11 around very quickly, and I never heard of anything like
12 that, and his demeanour was not that of a young man
13 like that.
14 Q. The killings of which you heard from him, and
15 no doubt you've heard other rumours, were those things
16 that you condemn, Witness DA?
17 A. Well, every right-minded person would condemn
18 every killing, and everybody must be held accountable
19 for what he has done. This cannot be avoided, either
20 in the eyes of men and in the eyes of God, or before
21 the Court.
22 Q. What is your conclusion about the character
23 of Goran Jelisic in the light of what he admitted to
24 you?
25 A. Well, all I can say in conclusion is that he
1 was forced to do this as a young person, and how -- but
2 how he was forced to do this, I don't know. But I do
3 believe that that young man would not have done it had
4 he not been forced to do it.
5 MR. GREAVES: Yes, Witness DA. Would you
6 wait there, please.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you,
9 Mr. Greaves.
10 Let me turn to the Office of the Prosecutor.
11 The Prosecutor is now going to ask you some questions.
12 Cross-examined by Mr. Nice:
13 Q. The other possibility, Witness DA, is that
14 you were misled by Jelisic and he was entirely willing
15 to kill these people. That's a possibility, isn't it?
16 A. I don't know that. I can't say that. I
17 can't make that kind of conclusion about anyone.
18 Q. I want to know why you say that you felt
19 sorry for him, but so far you've said nothing about
20 feeling sorry for the victims.
21 A. I said that I was sorry for every man, every
22 young man and every victim. It was war. I am very
23 sorry for everybody who suffered during the war, and
24 particularly as many young people died during the war
25 for nothing.
1 Q. How can you be forced to kill another man,
2 please, Witness DA? Explain that to us.
3 A. Well, I think you can be bribed. I didn't
4 have any problems. I was an old man, I worked in a
5 warehouse, but I heard rumours going around town that
6 this kind of thing was happening on all three sides,
7 not only on our side and not only in Goran's case but
8 in others too.
9 Q. People would simply be paid, be bribed to
10 kill; is that --
11 THE INTERPRETER: I beg your pardon.
12 Blackmailed. The witness said "blackmailed".
13 MR. NICE:
14 Q. All right, blackmailed. Well, are you
15 suggesting that Jelisic was blackmailed, and if so,
16 over what topic was he being blackmailed?
17 A. I know that he was forced. How he was
18 forced, I really don't know.
19 Q. How do you know the man was forced if he
20 never told you, please?
21 A. Well, he did tell me. He said he was
22 forced. He was made to by the person that ordered him,
23 Dragan, the chief of that SUP.
24 Q. Didn't you say to him, "How on Earth did he
25 persuade you, how on Earth did he force you?" You must
1 have been so shocked, you must have asked that
2 question, Witness DA.
3 A. That's right, I was shocked, and I was
4 completely taken aback and was speechless. I can't
5 explain it. I didn't know what to ask him. I just
6 shut up, and that's where we concluded that very
7 uncomfortable, unfortunate conversation.
8 Q. How many seconds was it that you discussed
9 this topic with Jelisic on the basis of which you come
10 here to give evidence of his good character? Was it 10
11 seconds, 15 seconds, one minute? Tell us.
12 A. The conversation with Goran himself, that
13 particular conversation? Well, I know Goran, and
14 that's why I was so surprised to hear what he told me.
15 I didn't discuss his character with him but what he
16 did.
17 Q. How long did the conversation, where he said
18 he was forced to kill, how long did that conversation
19 last, Witness DA; half a minute, a minute?
20 A. Well, not half a minute. Two or three
21 minutes, perhaps, while we came to the topic from my
22 last question to his answer.
23 Q. And on the basis of all that he said in two
24 or three minutes, you feel able to come here and say he
25 must have been forced and he's a man of good character;
1 is that the position?
2 MR. GREAVES: With respect, that's an unfair
3 question. This man has known him for ten or more
4 years. Surely, the proper question would be to ask
5 him, "In the context of knowing him for that period of
6 time, how are you able to assess this element of
7 character?"
8 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I will make
9 that decision. I think that's a relevant question.
10 Please continue, Mr. Nice. The objection is
11 overruled.
12 MR. NICE:
13 Q. How, on the basis of two or three minutes of
14 conversation, are you able to come here and say this
15 man was forced and that your judgement of his character
16 remains as you have described it, please?
17 A. Your Honours, I am not making any judgement
18 or decision or assessing anybody's character. But
19 having known him from a long time back, I came here to
20 say what happened. I know that people are saying that
21 many young men like that were forced to do similar
22 things on all three sides, not only on this one,
23 whether it was on the Serbian side, the Muslim side, or
24 any other side, and many young men lost their lives and
25 committed things like that during the war.
1 Q. Forced to do what, Witness DA? What is it
2 that this man, as you understood it, did?
3 A. I don't understand your question.
4 Q. Well, did he kill people simply by being a
5 soldier; did he kill people by taking them out and
6 executing them when he had been given proper formal
7 instructions to execute them; did he take them out at
8 random from a warehouse, line them up against a wall,
9 select one, make him put his head on a drain, and blow
10 his brains out? What is it this man, as you understood
11 it, was forced to do?
12 A. He was forced, as a soldier, to execute
13 military orders, which if you do not execute them, you
14 lose your head.
15 Q. Did he tell you he was executing military
16 orders or did you guess that?
17 A. Well, I guessed it because I know that that's
18 how it was, because nobody will kill anybody else
19 unless he is forced to or ordered to do so from certain
20 parties or by someone.
21 Q. And, what, these killings, as you understood
22 it, were they in the field of war or were they
23 somewhere else?
24 A. As far as I know, it happened in the war
25 areas where the fighting was going on. I don't know
1 about any other places.
2 Q. Would you look, please, at Exhibit 67? It's
3 the sequence of photographs. It's already been
4 produced as an exhibit.
5 We're familiar with this exhibit,
6 Witness DA. Just look at the first photograph and then
7 cast your eyes through --
8 MR. NICE: They can stay in the book. It's
9 all right. He can go straight through them.
10 THE USHER: Do you want them on the ELMO?
11 MR. NICE: Yes, why not. Put them on the
12 ELMO.
13 And the next photograph. The man in the blue
14 shirt is Jelisic. The next photograph, please. The
15 next photograph, please. The next photograph, please.
16 The next photograph, please. Pause there for one
17 minute, but we'll look at the next photographs in a few
18 seconds.
19 Q. This is Jelisic killing a man in the street.
20 You had no idea, when you gave evidence of his
21 character, that this is the sort of thing he had done,
22 did you?
23 A. First of all, judging by this photograph, I
24 cannot say whether it's Jelisic or not, because it's
25 taken from behind and it could be anyone. I don't
1 know.
2 Q. It's admitted that it's him. He's admitted
3 it. It's a fact.
4 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes, Witness, I
5 want to confirm what the Prosecutor said. The
6 identification -- well, all right. The fact that you
7 can't identify it is right, but I want to tell you that
8 the Judges in this Trial Chamber received testimony
9 corroborating the fact that this is Goran Jelisic. I
10 want this to be clear to you. Of course, it is your
11 own right to say that you don't recognise him. Thank
12 you.
13 Please continue, Mr. Nice.
14 MR. NICE:
15 Q. You had no idea, did you, that Jelisic killed
16 people in the circumstances revealed in this
17 photograph, did you?
18 A. No, I did not know.
19 Q. You see, Jelisic has also said that he was
20 incapable of looking at the people he killed.
21 MR. NICE: Would you turn over the next
22 photograph, please, usher?
23 Q. Do you see him there? Please look at the
24 photograph, Witness, and the next one.
25 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes. We're
1 going to have to bend it over there. Yes, that's
2 better. Thank you.
3 MR. NICE:
4 Q. And the next photograph, please. Do you see
5 what he's doing? He's aiming at the head of the man
6 that's on the ground. And the next photograph,
7 please. Aiming and looking at the man dead or dying.
8 Do you see that?
9 A. I see the picture.
10 Q. You had no idea, did you, that the man about
11 whom you've come to give character evidence was capable
12 of doing this sort of thing, did you?
13 A. Your Honours, I am talking about what
14 happened before. What happened there, I don't know
15 what happened. I know nothing of that, and I cannot
16 bring any conclusions in.
17 MR. NICE: Thank you. The exhibit can be
18 removed. Thank you, usher.
19 Q. He spoke to you in critical terms of the
20 profit made in war by the leaders, didn't he?
21 A. Yes. He said that all the leaders were
22 profiting.
23 Q. Did he imply by that that he had himself made
24 no profit from war?
25 A. That's what I concluded, judging by the
1 conversation.
2 Q. So he made no admission to you about the
3 money that he had taken from Muslim victims of the
4 attack on Muslims by Serbs, did he?
5 A. I didn't ask him about that; neither did he
6 tell me anything about that.
7 Q. He made no revelation to you of where he got
8 the money from on which he was living?
9 A. No.
10 Q. You say he expressed no views adverse to
11 Muslims, although he did ask you whether you had been
12 insulted, didn't he?
13 A. Well, as far as I know, he didn't only ask
14 me. I know that he helped many of the Muslims whom he
15 had been friends with. He helped them during the war
16 and during the fighting. I did not hear him take money
17 from anyone. What happened at the front, I don't know.
18 Q. You see, he's made it clear, in answers he's
19 given on a tape-recorder to investigators, that it was
20 explained to him that the people he had to kill were
21 Muslim agitators and extremists and that that's how he
22 was persuaded to kill Muslims, people called balijas.
23 He never gave that explanation to you, did he?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. By "Yes", you're, I think, agreeing with my
1 proposition that he didn't ever give you that
2 explanation.
3 A. He never told me why he killed, except for
4 the fact that I learned that he was forced. And the
5 rest, I simply don't know.
6 Q. When you say you learned, you learned from
7 his lips and from nowhere else that he was forced?
8 A. I can give you the following answer to this
9 question: I concluded that he was pressured into doing
10 this because I know that other people were pressured to
11 do things that were improper, illegal, and those people
12 ended up at the Tribunal, people from all three sides.
13 Q. Which people, then, just so that we
14 understand your position? Which people have landed up
15 at the Tribunal who shouldn't be here, please?
16 A. I didn't say "people who shouldn't be here".
17 It is not for me to say who should be here or who
18 shouldn't be. I just know that some people are guilty
19 of higher crimes than other people. I am just
20 saying -- I'm just stating that some people were forced
21 to do certain things.
22 Q. You've told us about his having a
23 girlfriend. Just one small detail. Was he proud of
24 his success with women?
25 A. Sir, I'm an elderly person. I just heard
1 rumours. I know that he had friends among Muslims and
2 that he had a girlfriend who was a Muslim.
3 Q. Was he proud of his prowess with women?
4 A. I have not observed that.
5 Q. [Previous interpretation continues]... been
6 seen by other people preparatory to coming to
7 judgement, and his attitude on women, part of his
8 character, is summarised by his saying he took test
9 drives on many women. Is that something he ever said
10 to you?
11 A. I don't know about that.
12 Q. He spoke of killing a precise number of
13 people. Please tell us how many.
14 A. He told me ten, twelve people, although he
15 did say, "I don't know if they were guilty or not. I
16 feel sorry for those people. I don't know which ones
17 were guilty and which ones were not, but I did it based
18 on the orders of Dragan, the commander in MUP."
19 Q. So it's ten or twelve people. Could it be
20 more than twelve?
21 A. No. I don't know. I could not have
22 concluded that. Ten, twelve people.
23 Q. But what he made quite clear to you was that
24 the people he killed might have been completely
25 innocent, for he knew nothing to show that they were
1 guilty of anything; correct?
2 A. Could you please repeat the question?
3 Q. Certainly. He made it clear to you that the
4 people he killed might have been completely innocent,
5 for he knew nothing to show that they were guilty?
6 A. He said he didn't know whether those people
7 were guilty or not. He simply carried on his orders.
8 That's all he told me.
9 MR. NICE: Thank you.
10 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 Mr. Greaves, you have the right to reexamine
12 in order to supplement any of the questions that the
13 Prosecutor asked.
14 All right. Mr. Greaves is going to take the
15 floor again, Witness DA, before the Judges ask their
16 questions.
17 Re-examined by Mr. Greaves:
18 Q. Witness DA, you have been shown some
19 photographs this morning. Do those photographs in any
20 way alter the element of surprise that you have that
21 Goran Jelisic could be involved in those sort of
22 events?
23 A. Looking at these photographs, I cannot
24 conclude that Goran is in these pictures. This is
25 not -- these photographs are not very clear. I don't
1 know --
2 Q. Witness DA, just remember, it's accepted that
3 the person in that photograph is Goran Jelisic. Just
4 listen to the question: Do those photographs alter
5 your surprise that Goran Jelisic could be involved in
6 events of that kind?
7 A. They do not alter, because I know that he did
8 it because he was ordered to. And, of course, I feel
9 sorry for people that were killed in this way.
10 MR. GREAVES: Thank you.
11 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Judge Riad?
12 JUDGE RIAD: Good morning, Witness DA. I've
13 been listening very carefully to your defence of
14 Mr. Jelisic. I would like you to remember that you are
15 here as a witness, not as a defence lawyer, and you're
16 not coming here to speak to us about human nature.
17 Most of your answers were concerning human nature,
18 because you are a good man, apparently, so you always
19 would say, for instance, when you were asked if Jelisic
20 was upset, you said, "Of course. Everybody would be
21 upset." We are not asking about everybody.
22 You said, when you were asked "What do you
23 think about his killing," you said, "Of course he must
24 have been pressured because nobody else would do it
25 otherwise." These are quotes. "Nobody can do this
1 unless he is pressured."
2 So most of your answers concerned human
3 nature. And you are coming here just to testify on
4 very specific facts of an accused man, so we want to
5 know three things. How long did you know Mr. Jelisic,
6 to testify about his character? Apart from the fact
7 that you like him, which is very clear; you even refuse
8 to accept that the pictures are his when he has himself
9 accepted it, and it's very commendable of you when you
10 trust him so much. But we want to know, how long did
11 you know him, to trust him so much? How much do you
12 know about the events which happened? Because you
13 seemed to look at the pictures for the first time.
14 And you are a witness, and "witness" means
15 somebody who saw. And really, what did you hear from
16 him? Not from human nature. Don't tell us, "Of course
17 everybody would be" -- whatever you said -- "everybody
18 would be upset." No, we want to know, did you see him
19 repenting, crying, as some people do, asking for
20 forgiveness from the Church, from anybody?
21 We want these facts. You are a witness of
22 facts, not a moralist. So if you have just a few
23 things to add, to tell us exactly how much you have
24 known him, how much he told you, how much you have seen
25 from these things, pictures which you don't know about,
1 and how much you have heard from him, could you tell us
2 something about that?
3 Thank you. Go ahead.
4 A. As I have said, I have known Goran since
5 1980 [sic]. We met in competitions through hunting,
6 through fishing. And I also want to say that he became
7 upset after I asked him the question. He blushed, he
8 was taken aback, and he said, "I know that I will be
9 held accountable sooner or later before the Court for
10 this, but then I will not hide anything, and I will say
11 about everybody who participated in it."
12 And this is where we ended our conversation
13 about this topic. So I felt uncomfortable, and I was
14 surprised, and -- I don't know how to describe this,
15 but that is just the kind of person I am. I simply
16 could not take any more discussion of this topic.
17 JUDGE RIAD: You said, if I understood
18 rightly, you knew him since 1980? Did you say that?
19 A. 1988.
20 JUDGE RIAD: '88?
21 A. '88.
22 JUDGE RIAD: And since then, if you know him
23 well, do you know what he has been doing in life? Do
24 you know about that, or you were just going together
25 fishing, outside? Do you know more about his life, his
1 actions? Do you know something about that? To know
2 his character, you should know what he has been doing.
3 So can you tell us about that, in brief?
4 A. I personally don't know what he did in life.
5 He was a young man, and I was in such a position that I
6 only would meet him during these fishing expeditions,
7 competitions, and I would see him fishing, by the
8 water. I don't know about his private life.
9 JUDGE RIAD: So he was a fishing partner?
10 That's what you know about him?
11 A. I am in charge of fishing.
12 JUDGE RIAD: Good. Then he was fishing in
13 your domain. Now let's speak about the events which
14 happened. How close were you to all these events, or
15 did you just hear about it from him?
16 A. I heard about -- I only heard about that. I
17 did not stay in Brcko.
18 JUDGE RIAD: Good. Then the last thing, how
19 much did he talk to you about it, so that you would
20 know exactly how he felt? Did he confide in you, as an
21 uncle or somebody, or was it just a casual
22 conversation?
23 A. When I asked the question, of course it was a
24 casual conversation. I wanted to know whether it was
25 true or not, because I was surprised that a young man
1 like that could have done something like that.
2 JUDGE RIAD: Apparently you are a very good
3 man. Thank you, sir.
4 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you,
5 Judge Riad.
6 Judge Rodrigues has no questions; I have only
7 one. You have come to testify for Goran Jelisic, and I
8 have to congratulate you on the effort that you have
9 made in order to testify for a criminal who has
10 acknowledged what he has done, as he pleaded guilty to
11 a certain number of crimes, and as Judge Riad said, we
12 have to salute you for that, because it's never easy,
13 but you must have said, "I have to come to speak for
14 that man, who is in great difficulties."
15 That's fine, but what raises questions in my
16 mind gives me the liberty to ask you one question
17 only: When you leave this Tribunal, will you be the
18 same man in respect of Goran Jelisic that you were when
19 you came into this courtroom? Will you be the same
20 man?
21 A. If I ever meet him, if I were to meet him
22 ever again, I don't know how that would affect my
23 attitude to him. He will be held accountable for what
24 he had done.
25 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Very well.
1 Therefore you are a man of a great moral rectitude,
2 moral principles, but these moral principles come in
3 after friendship and fishing expeditions; is that what
4 you are telling us? You have the right to say that.
5 Is that what you mean, that the friendship with
6 somebody that you would go fishing with in 1988 is the
7 supreme barrier, which means that everything that you
8 are shown in no way changes the idea that you have of
9 Goran Jelisic?
10 In other words, tomorrow, say that he would
11 be acquitted; let's say that he would be freed, so you
12 would be able to go fishing with him without any
13 problems. You would be serene, you would be
14 comfortable. Is that what you are telling us?
15 Please answer: Is that what you're telling
16 us?
17 A. Your Honour, first of all, I'm not fishing
18 myself; I'm in charge of the fishing --
19 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Oh, please,
20 please, please, please, spare me. In such serious
21 proceedings, please spare me such a ridiculous answer.
22 I am asking you whether the fact that you would go
23 fishing with him in 1988 represents a supreme barrier
24 which allows you to completely ignore what Mr. Jelisic
25 has acknowledged and what you saw today illustrated in
1 front of you. Is that what you're telling us?
2 A. No one can simply be so casual about it, and
3 nobody could remain calm when hearing about this. But
4 if -- it is my job to have a professional attitude
5 towards all fishermen, because he will be held
6 accountable by the Tribunal. He will be punished.
7 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] You are a man,
8 really, who has compartments within your mind. I can
9 congratulate you. You are well organised within your
10 own mind. There are moral principles; there are
11 fishing companions, which apparently is very
12 important.
13 I think I won't ask you any further
14 questions. I simply would like to say to you, do you
15 continue to say, those poor victims, murdered, as you
16 saw on the photograph, when you saw them transported in
17 refrigerated trucks like animals, Witness DA, can you
18 continue to tell us that you are very sorry, just very
19 sorry? Is that what you are telling us?
20 A. Naturally, I am sorry. I could only see this
21 in a movie. I still, to this day, cannot still believe
22 that this had, in fact, happened. This is
23 unbelievable. I cannot comprehend that something like
24 this could have happened, and I'm still -- to me, this
25 still seems impossible, although he admitted, but I'm
1 just such a person that I simply find it difficult to
2 believe all this.
3 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Very well. I
4 have no further questions. I send you back to your
5 work, and I congratulate you. I believe that you are a
6 good fisherman.
7 All right. The testimony is complete. We
8 will now take a break -- yes, I was just going to
9 say -- all right. We are going to take a five- to
10 ten-minute break.
11 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.
12 --- On resuming at 11.12 a.m.
13 [The witness entered court]
14 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We can resume
15 the hearing now.
16 Have the accused brought in, please. Please
17 be seated.
18 [The accused entered court]
19 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Would you
20 please stand. Do you hear me, Witness DI?
21 First we're going to ask you to check the
22 names that are on the piece of paper being shown you.
23 Don't state the name. We don't want your name to be
24 disclosed. Is that you?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
1 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] All right.
2 Please remain standing for a few more moments, as long
3 as it takes to take an oath.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly
5 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,
6 and nothing but the truth.
7 WITNESS: WITNESS DI
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you. You
10 may now be seated, Witness DI.
11 You have agreed to come to testify at the
12 trial of Goran Jelisic here at the International
13 Criminal Tribunal, Goran Jelisic who is to your left.
14 I'm sure they explained to you. First the
15 Defence attorney, Mr. Greaves, will ask you some
16 questions, then the Prosecutor, and lastly the Judges.
17 Please relax. You have nothing to fear.
18 Remain calm, and then answer the questions that you're
19 asked very precisely.
20 Please proceed, Mr. Greaves.
21 Examined by Mr. Greaves:
22 Q. Witness DI, would you be so kind as to tell
23 us your ethnic background?
24 A. I'm of the Muslim nationality.
25 Q. When did you first meet Goran Jelisic?
1 A. I've known Goran since I was ten years old.
2 Q. Did there come a time when you began to work
3 together?
4 A. I went to school with Goran together, and we
5 worked together.
6 Q. When did you start to work with him?
7 A. In 198 -- I'm not quite sure which year. In
8 1986 or 1987, sometime there. We did agricultural
9 work.
10 Q. At the place where you were employed, and
11 don't tell us what the name of it was, but at that
12 place were the majority of workers of one particular
13 nationality?
14 A. Yes. They were mostly Muslims.
15 Q. Did Goran know that you were a Muslim?
16 A. Yes.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness sit
18 closer to the microphone, please, the interpreters
19 note.
20 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much,
21 Mr. Usher.
22 Q. Are you able to say what Goran Jelisic's
23 attitude towards those of other nationalities was at
24 the place where you worked?
25 A. Well, there was no difference between us. We
1 didn't distinguish between Muslims and Serbs. We were
2 all just like one family.
3 Q. Did there come a time when you left the place
4 where you were working?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And after that, did you see somewhat less of
7 Goran Jelisic?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. When the war broke out, did you remain where
10 you were living?
11 A. Not exactly in that place; a little further
12 off from it, a few kilometres away.
13 Q. I'd like to turn now, please, to the summer
14 of 1993. Did you re-establish contact with Goran
15 Jelisic at around that time?
16 A. Yes. In the summer of 1993, I saw Goran.
17 Q. By this time, had you become married and had
18 at least one child?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. When you saw Goran Jelisic in the summer of
21 1993, was his attitude towards you any different from
22 what it had been before?
23 A. No. No, he didn't change at all. In fact,
24 he was a little better, because we hadn't seen each
25 other for quite some time, for several months.
1 Q. Did he make any enquires about your new and
2 present circumstances?
3 A. Yes, several times. He asked me how I was,
4 whether everything was okay.
5 Q. Did he enquire about how you were managing to
6 support yourself?
7 A. Yes, he asked that too as to my material
8 status. He asked a lot of questions about my
9 well-being.
10 Q. And on that occasion, did you have one of
11 your children with you?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And how did he react towards your child?
14 A. Well, he almost considered it to be a close
15 relation of his.
16 Q. Did Goran Jelisic know your parents?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did he make any enquires about their
19 circumstances and how they were getting on?
20 A. Yes, he made enquires.
21 Q. After that, did he begin to come to your
22 house at all?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did he give you any financial assistance of
25 any kind?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. How were things during that period for you
3 and your family?
4 A. Well, they were highly critical. My brother
5 was in Bosnia, and we didn't have much to live on. So
6 with Goran and his help, we succeeded in surviving.
7 Q. Were you in employment at this time?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Was your husband in employment?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Was it easy for Muslims to get jobs in that
12 area at that time?
13 A. Yes.
14 MR. GREAVES: If Your Honours would give me a
15 moment, please.
16 Your Honour, there's an issue of
17 interpretation. My interpreter says that the question
18 was interpreted wrongly and that the question, as
19 interpreted, was, "Was it difficult for Muslims to get
20 jobs in that area at that time?" I would like to have
21 it clarified, please, if I may.
22 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes. I had
23 understood -- well, the question was, "Was it easy for
24 Muslims to find jobs," and the answer that was given
25 was, "Yes." The answer is the problem; isn't that
1 correct? All right. Ask the question again, please.
2 MR. GREAVES: The question was wrongly
3 interpreted, according to my interpreter. May I have
4 Your Honour's leave to ask the question again, please?
5 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Of course, of
6 course.
7 JUDGE RIAD: Or to correct it, because we'll
8 have two contradictory questions.
9 MR. GREAVES: Of course.
10 JUDGE RIAD: You can correct it, if you want
11 to.
12 MR. GREAVES: Yes.
13 Q. Witness DI, you've told Their Honours that
14 neither you nor your husband were in employment at that
15 time. As far as Muslims were concerned, was it easy or
16 was it difficult for Muslims to get jobs at that time?
17 A. It was difficult.
18 Q. Did you receive financial assistance from
19 Goran Jelisic, or other material assistance from him,
20 during those times?
21 A. I got material and financial assistance from
22 Goran, and he was always there to help me whenever I
23 needed it.
24 Q. Were you aware of him having helped any other
25 Muslims at all?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Without mentioning any names of those to whom
3 he had given help, how many people were you aware of to
4 whom he'd given help?
5 A. Well, there are several, but I'm certain for
6 about two men, because I was present when he helped
7 them, and they said how Goran had helped them.
8 Q. As far as his attitude towards Muslims was
9 concerned, had that changed in any way in the later
10 years when you knew him?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Goran Jelisic has pleaded guilty before this
13 Tribunal to committing a substantial number of killings
14 and other offences. Before you came here today, were
15 you aware of that?
16 A. Well, just a little. But you know what,
17 Goran, as a man, I can't understand that he could have
18 done anything like that. I know Goran very well. He
19 was quiet and shy. He liked helping everybody.
20 Q. Does the fact that he's pleaded guilty to
21 killing a number of Muslims, does that surprise you, in
22 the light of your knowledge of this man?
23 A. I was completely surprised because, as I say,
24 I knew Goran very well.
25 Q. Even though he has extended the hand of
1 friendship to him [sic], do you condemn what he has
2 done?
3 A. Well, I don't know what to say. Quite
4 simply, I can't understand that Goran could have done
5 anything like that. I cannot accept it, but ...
6 Q. Well, will you accept from me that he's
7 pleaded guilty to those killings and has admitted them
8 to the Tribunal?
9 A. Well, I can accept it, that he has pleaded
10 guilty. But I don't know how ...
11 Q. And in the light of the knowledge that he's
12 accepted killing those people, do you condemn those
13 killings?
14 A. I don't know how to express myself.
15 Q. Right. Would you wait there, please.
16 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you,
17 Mr. Greaves.
18 Mr. Tochilovsky, for the Office of the
19 Prosecutor, is going to ask you some questions.
20 Cross-examined by Mr. Tochilovsky:
21 Q. Just a few questions about the financial
22 assistance you received from Goran Jelisic. By the
23 way, how much did he provide to you? How much money?
24 A. He would always give me enough to be able to
25 survive and to have something with which to feed my
1 family.
2 Q. So how much?
3 A. Well, 30 Deutschemarks, 50 Deutschemarks. It
4 all depended. Sometimes I needed to buy medicines for
5 my child, then he would pay for that. So I can't give
6 you an exact figure.
7 Q. Upon his return from Brcko, you met him in
8 1993, after that, he had enough money to open his own
9 business in Bijeljina, a bookstore; is that correct?
10 He had a bookstore?
11 A. I know that he had a bookstore, but I don't
12 know otherwise, and I didn't know where he got his
13 money from. I didn't pay attention to that.
14 Q. Did he tell you that he had killed victims in
15 a camp in Brcko and he had stolen money from those
16 detainees in the camp?
17 A. No. No, no, he didn't tell me.
18 Q. And the money he gave you is the money from
19 those dead victims in the camp. Did you realise that?
20 A. No.
21 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: I have no further
22 questions, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] The Judges may
24 have some other questions. Judge Riad, who is to my
25 right: Judge Riad?
1 Questioned by the Court:
2 JUDGE RIAD: Good morning, Witness DI. I
3 can't say your name. Now, your husband is a Muslim
4 too?
5 A. My husband is not a pure Muslim. How can I
6 explain it to you? His father is a Muslim and his
7 mother is a Serb.
8 JUDGE RIAD: And in that case, around you, in
9 your region, would a person like that be considered
10 Muslim, or Serb? You know, for instance, for some
11 people --
12 A. Well, more a Muslim. More a Muslim.
13 JUDGE RIAD: He is more a Muslim? What was
14 his relationship with Jelisic? Was Jelisic your
15 friend, or your husband's friend? I mean, usually one
16 of the partners has a friend and the other accepts
17 them.
18 A. Goran Jelisic and I went to school together,
19 so he was my friend. After, when he got to know my
20 husband, we were friends and visited each other's
21 homes.
22 JUDGE RIAD: And then he became a friend of
23 your children, too? He loved your children?
24 A. Yes.
25 JUDGE RIAD: Is this one of his
1 characteristics, that he used to be kind to children,
2 or was it specific for your family? And why did he
3 love your family so much?
4 A. Well, let me put it this way: Goran and I
5 grew up together. We have known each other since we
6 were ten years old. We went to school together. So we
7 have spent a whole lifetime together, and I considered
8 him to be a brother. He was a brother to me, almost.
9 JUDGE RIAD: Did you tell your children --
10 was it some kind of general attitude, he would love
11 children in particular, a man who has got a fatherly
12 instinct, especially to children?
13 A. Yes, he loved children.
14 JUDGE RIAD: Did you live in the same area
15 where some of the crimes were committed, or you don't
16 know anything about it?
17 A. I don't know anything about it.
18 JUDGE RIAD: Since you have known Jelisic all
19 your life, did you follow up his career and what
20 happened to him, what he was doing in life? Do you
21 know something about it? Did he sometimes commit
22 crimes? Did he sometimes -- apart from his love, of
23 course, for your children, did he do something else in
24 life?
25 A. I don't know. I didn't follow it. What was
1 important to me was that whenever I saw him, we'd
2 always have a chat. He would come, and as I have just
3 said, I thought of him as a brother.
4 JUDGE RIAD: So you don't know anything about
5 his life?
6 A. Well, I know what he did in town and the kind
7 of person he was towards others, what he was like with
8 his friends.
9 JUDGE RIAD: You don't know what he committed
10 in life, was he once in gaol, did he do anything; you
11 have no idea?
12 A. [No audible response]
13 JUDGE RIAD: You have no idea. Thank you.
14 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Let me turn to
15 Judge Rodrigues. Judge Rodrigues.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good
17 morning, Witness DI.
18 How many children do you have?
19 A. Four.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] At the time
21 in 1993, how many children did you have at that time?
22 A. One.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You said
24 that, in your own words, "I know Mr. Jelisic very
25 well," but you answered Judge Riad by saying that you
1 did not know whether Mr. Jelisic had been convicted by
2 a court?
3 A. That's right.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And you
5 also said that Mr. Jelisic helped you a great deal,
6 financially and materially. Was Mr. Jelisic a rich
7 man?
8 A. Well, Goran Jelisic, his family -- how can I
9 explain this to you? They were a sort of middle-class
10 family. They worked, his parents worked, he worked, so
11 that they had a sort of standard -- medium standard of
12 living; not too well but all right.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In 1993,
14 what kind of work was Mr. Jelisic doing?
15 A. Well, he didn't tell me about it in any
16 details, that is to say, what he was doing, because
17 there wasn't so much work to be had where he worked.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But you
19 lived in the same city as Mr. Jelisic; is that
20 correct?
21 A. Yes, yes, that's correct, but I didn't move
22 around much. That is to say, I spent most of my time
23 at home and Goran would come and visit me at my home,
24 so I didn't go about town much.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But was it
1 possible to know what Mr. Jelisic did for a job?
2 A. Well, I didn't really know.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You knew
4 Mr. Jelisic especially through the visits that he made
5 to you, is that correct, when he came to your house?
6 A. Yes.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In May
8 1992, did you know what kind of job Mr. Jelisic had?
9 A. No, no. I've just told you, I was a little
10 further off from Bijeljina during that period.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Where were
12 you?
13 A. Several kilometres away. That is where the
14 settlement is from Bijeljina. I don't want to give its
15 name.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] A few
17 kilometres. Well, what, a thousand kilometres, two
18 kilometres, ten kilometres?
19 A. Thirteen kilometres.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thirteen.
21 So you said that you knew Mr. Jelisic very
22 well, but there are all kinds of things that you don't
23 know.
24 I have another question. You told us that
25 you went to school with him, that you know Jelisic very
1 well, that you had known him for a long time, that you
2 were friends, he was like a brother to you. Could you
3 tell us how Mr. Jelisic was raised? What kind of
4 relationship did he have with his parents?
5 A. Mr. Jelisic had quite normal relations with
6 his parents. He was a very well-brought-up child. On
7 the streets, at school, at home, his behaviour was
8 always good.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] He was
10 raised by his parents or was it by his grandmother?
11 A. Mostly by his grandmother when he was small,
12 a little bit -- that is to say, a little by the
13 grandmother but more with his parents, as far as I
14 know, because we were small then.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So you knew
16 Mr. Jelisic very well. Could you tell us why he was
17 raised mostly by his grandmother?
18 A. Because his parents worked.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] My last
20 question, Witness DI, is the following: I would like
21 to go back to Mr. Greaves' question. Knowing that Mr.
22 Jelisic admitted being guilty of various acts,
23 including murder, of having killed at least 12 people,
24 what is your opinion? Does that change your opinion?
25 Is that a surprise in respect to you? Does that change
1 your opinion?
2 A. My opinion of Goran -- my opinion of Goran
3 hasn't changed, because Goran will always be what he
4 was before for me.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But the
6 more specific question that Mr. Greaves asked you is:
7 "What is your position, what is your opinion?" Do you
8 condemn the murders that Mr. Jelisic committed?
9 A. I don't know how to express myself. Knowing
10 Goran, I understand that he pleaded guilty, but I just
11 can't accept it, that a person like that, with that
12 kind of character, could have done anything like that.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Perhaps
14 this potential for committing this type of acts was
15 something you didn't know in Mr. Jelisic's personality?
16 A. Well --
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Could you
18 answer?
19 A. Well, I'm telling you now, I just can't
20 understand that Goran could have done anything like
21 that.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think
23 that was the answer that you gave Mr. Greaves, but I'm
24 not going to insist on that question and I will stop
25 here.
1 Thank you very much, Witness DI.
2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 Witness DI. I have no further questions to ask you
4 either. Your testimony is complete. We're going to
5 escort you out of the courtroom.
6 Perhaps you would like to take a five or
7 ten-minute break, Mr. Registrar.
8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The next
9 witness should be Witness DH.
10 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Is he ready?
11 We don't need a break, just the time it takes to escort
12 the other witness out of the courtroom.
13 Thank you, Witness DI. We wish you a good
14 trip back home.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you,
16 Sir. Thank you, Judge.
17 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Goodbye.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 [The witness withdrew]
20 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We're going to
21 take a five-minute break.
22 --- Recess taken at 11.45 a.m.
23 --- On resuming at 12.05 p.m.
24 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Please be
25 seated. Have the accused brought in.
1 [The accused entered court]
2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We apologise
3 for the delay, which is my own personal fault.
4 This is Witness -- what's the pseudonym?
5 THE REGISTRAR: DH, Mr. President.
6 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] All right,
7 Witness DH. Please check to see that this is your name
8 that's on the piece of paper. Please do not say it out
9 loud; simply check to see that it is your name. You
10 are going to take an oath.
11 THE WITNESS: Yes.
12 JUDGE JORDA: I solemnly declare that I will
13 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
14 truth
15 WITNESS: WITNESS DH
16 [Witness answered through interpreter]
17 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you. You
18 may now be seated. Thank you for having come at the
19 request of the Defence as a character witness for Goran
20 Jelisic, the accused, accused by the Office of the
21 Prosecutor of crimes against humanity and war crimes.
22 He is sitting to your left in this courtroom.
23 You are protected. You asked for protective
24 measures, and this is why you are behind these
25 screens. You have nothing to fear. Speak without fear
1 or hatred. Answer the Defence counsel's questions
2 first, and then you will answer the Prosecutor's
3 questions, and lastly the Judges'.
4 Mr. Greaves, please proceed.
5 Examined by Mr. Greaves:
6 Q. Witness DH, would you please tell us your
7 ethnic background.
8 A. Serbian.
9 Q. And can you tell us, please, when it was that
10 you first met Goran Jelisic?
11 A. Towards the end of May, beginning of June,
12 1992.
13 Q. Don't tell us anything of where you live or
14 the area in which you live, but how was it that you
15 came to meet him?
16 A. I met Goran through my brother-in-law, or
17 son-in-law, who lived across the River of Sava and was
18 a friend of his, and one day he brought him to my house
19 for coffee and a drink. We sat down, had a
20 conversation, and this is how I met Goran.
21 Q. After that, were you aware that he was living
22 in the area in which you were living?
23 A. Afterwards I found out that he had come from
24 Bijeljina, and that at the time, he lived in that
25 village, not far from me, across the Sava River.
1 Q. Did he begin to visit your home on more
2 occasions?
3 A. Yes, he would come every day with my
4 son-in-law for coffee. He would go fishing on the Sava
5 River, and he would bring me fish that he had caught,
6 and this is how we became friends.
7 Q. I want to ask you now, Witness DH, about the
8 end of August 1992. At about that time, did Goran
9 Jelisic come to your house on a more permanent basis?
10 A. At the time, Goran lived in my house from the
11 end of August until about mid-September. Since I have
12 a large house, there was room for him to sleep there.
13 We became friends. He would bring me fish every day.
14 And he also had some stomach problems. He was quite
15 agitated, anxious. And since I worked in the medical
16 field, I would bring him medication and help him in
17 this way.
18 Q. During the time when he was staying in your
19 house, did he talk to you about what he had been doing
20 earlier that year?
21 A. He told me first that he was taken as a
22 prisoner on the Croatian front, that he was tortured,
23 mistreated, and then he managed to escape. And after
24 that, in Bijeljina -- no, in Brcko, he worked as a
25 reserve policeman, in fact, as an ordinary policeman,
1 and that his superiors forced him to torture, kill
2 people, and do all that. And he couldn't take it, and
3 then they threatened to eliminate him, and this is why
4 he was forced to run away.
5 He said that he could not stand it, to
6 torture those innocent people, to kill them; that was
7 terrible for him. So he could not find any peace.
8 This is why he was taking medication. He was having
9 stomach troubles, vomiting, he couldn't sleep, he had
10 pain in his stomach, and he kept saying that those
11 people are innocent, they had not done anything to
12 anyone.
13 He would call on the telephone two or three
14 times a day some people -- I don't know who he called;
15 probably his superiors, and he would argue with them
16 and tell them he could not continue doing that, he
17 would not continue doing that, that those people were
18 innocent. This is why he did not want to go back
19 there, and he left Brcko and Bijelina.
20 Q. Did you understand by what you heard from him
21 that he had killed other people?
22 A. Well, I did not understand that he killed
23 those people, because at the time, Goran was just as
24 young as my daughter, and I saw that he was a man -- he
25 was a man who cried, who was taking medication to calm
1 him down, so I -- based on that, I concluded that if he
2 had done something, he didn't do it on his own free
3 will. And also he would not have fled if he had wanted
4 to continue doing that.
5 Q. Just to approach it slightly differently,
6 Witness DH, he had told you that he had killed people
7 as part of his work earlier that year; is that right?
8 A. He didn't tell me that personally, but I
9 heard from the conversations when he was making phone
10 calls to Brcko or Bijelina. I don't know where he was
11 making those phone calls to, and I don't know who he
12 was talking to, but I heard that he was arguing with
13 them. And based on those conversations, this is the
14 conclusion that I made, but I didn't want to discuss it
15 with him.
16 Q. To you, did he ever express any remorse about
17 what he had done?
18 A. I stated that he cried a lot, and he was
19 sorry for those people who, without any fault of
20 theirs, were killed and tortured. And whether he was
21 the one who killed them, or anybody else, I really
22 cannot tell you. I could not tell you.
23 Q. Did he eventually move from your house?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Where did he go to, without mentioning the
1 names of the people or villages, but did he go to a
2 place nearby?
3 A. Well, at the time while he was staying at our
4 house, at one point he even found an apartment. He
5 wanted to open up a shop and proceed with that, but he
6 had not done it, although he wished -- I think he
7 greatly desired to go back to his house. And he asked
8 me how could I help him to cross without police, his
9 police, arresting him, because they threatened to
10 eliminate him.
11 And then I already told you that I worked in
12 the medical field, and we came up with the idea for me
13 to go to the orthopaedics department and to take some
14 plaster and take the nurse, bring the nurse who would
15 put his leg into a cast and thus help him cross into
16 his town.
17 And that's what we did. I went to the nurse,
18 and we took some plaster cast, and on my balcony, we
19 put his leg into the cast. I think he didn't even wait
20 to make sure that it was dry enough. He simply called
21 the cab, got into the cab, and I didn't see him
22 afterwards.
23 Q. What was the purpose of putting a cast on his
24 leg? What was your reasoning behind that?
25 A. Well, he wanted to go back to Bijeljina or
1 Brcko. I don't know where. Probably to Bijeljina.
2 And the purpose of putting the cast was so that his
3 police at the checkpoint, at the crossing, would not
4 arrest him, because he wanted to show that he had hurt
5 his leg. And I don't know exactly why, but he asked me
6 to help him in this way, to do something of this kind,
7 to help him to go back. As I said, he left, and I
8 haven't heard anything of him afterwards.
9 MR. GREAVES: Yes. Thank you. Would you
10 wait there, please.
11 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you,
12 Mr. Greaves, for being concise.
13 Turning to the Office of the Prosecutor now,
14 who is going to ask you the questions it deems
15 appropriate. Mr. Nice, please proceed.
16 Cross-examined by Mr. Nice:
17 Q. How long altogether did you know this man?
18 A. From the end of May until mid-September 1992.
19 Q. The first passage of time when he called at
20 your house, he was introduced really by your
21 son-in-law; is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Where is your son-in-law now?
24 A. In the village across from the Sava River.
25 Q. And he's fit and able to travel?
1 A. My son-in-law or who? Can you please --
2 Q. Your son-in-law, he's fit and able to travel?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. He, of course, can give a better account than
5 you of how it was that he met Jelisic and how Jelisic
6 came to knock at your door; would that be true?
7 A. Well, he brought him. They were friends in
8 that village. I don't know who Jelisic came to visit
9 in that village. But this is where they met, became
10 friends, so he would come and visit me daily. And as I
11 said, they went fishing on the Sava, and this is how he
12 spent his free time, relaxed. And since I loved fish,
13 he would come every day and bring me fish, and he would
14 stay, have coffee, and this is how it went until he
15 came and moved into my house.
16 Q. So if I understand it correctly, no
17 explanation was given for the sudden appearance on the
18 scene of this man at the end of May. The man, however,
19 appeared to be perfectly normal, relaxed, and happy at
20 that time?
21 A. You have Goran in mind?
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. Can you please repeat the question? I didn't
24 quite understand that.
25 Q. Of course. I'll break it into two parts.
1 First, no explanation was given for the
2 sudden appearance, on your local scene, of Jelisic; he
3 just appeared as a friend of your son-in-law?
4 A. Yes. When he came as a friend of my
5 son-in-law, he told me that he had been taken in --
6 that he had been imprisoned in the Croatian front, that
7 he was tortured there, that he managed to flee from
8 that front. Then later on, he told me that he was in
9 the reserve police as an ordinary policeman in Brcko,
10 and then he told me that his superiors --
11 Q. I'm going to come to all that in a minute. I
12 want to do things in order, you see.
13 A. All right.
14 Q. So when he first came at the end of May, he
15 was happy and content and able to go fishing and be
16 just an ordinary friend of your son-in-law; would that
17 be right?
18 A. He did not look content and normal. As I've
19 already mentioned, he was very anxious. He was taking
20 medication. He had stomach pain. And then later on,
21 he told me that he was in the reserve police.
22 Q. But to begin with, he was able to function,
23 fishing and going out and talking to you, in an
24 ordinary way?
25 A. Yes, when -- after he had taken some
1 medication to calm himself down. Fishing helped him
2 relax, so that he wouldn't think about what was going
3 on there.
4 Q. Now, at a later stage he moved into your
5 house. Was that because he needed somewhere to hide?
6 A. Yes. He had no need to hide, but he asked
7 me, since my house was large and I had plenty of room,
8 he asked me if he could stay there. And as I said, he
9 also wanted, in this place where I lived, to open some
10 kind of a shop, and that would make things easier for
11 him, since he visited the village daily.
12 Q. How many kilometres, roughly, is your village
13 from Brcko?
14 A. From Brcko, approximately 90, a hundred
15 kilometres. I'm not quite sure.
16 Q. By the time of Jelisic's arrival in your
17 village, had rumours, stories, news reports of the
18 killings in Brcko reached your village?
19 A. No.
20 Q. When did rumours, or stories, or news reports
21 about the atrocities in Brcko first reach your village,
22 madam?
23 A. Well, once we learned anything, it was from
24 television. And I don't normally read the newspapers,
25 so I typically just followed television and radio, and
1 they didn't really go into great detail, not enough for
2 me to learn more about this.
3 Q. Are you telling us that even at the distance
4 of 90 or a hundred kilometres from Brcko, the killings
5 there were something of which you remained ignorant for
6 years?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Are you telling us that you never heard of
9 the photographs of the killings at Brcko and never
10 heard that the man Jelisic, known as Adolf, was
11 associated with those killings?
12 A. No, no.
13 Q. Not even until this very moment when you're
14 sitting here in this court, you've never heard of those
15 things?
16 A. Well, now when I was called to come here to
17 give testimony, then, of course, I had heard by that
18 time, and, yes, I'm sorry. I also, at one occasion in
19 Zvornik, I'm not quite sure where, I read in the
20 newspapers Goran Jelisic and another man were mentioned
21 as -- I'm not quite sure how to put this -- that they
22 had committed killings and all that. But that was a
23 brief report, just a paragraph, and that was all. And
24 later on, I did not see anything in the newspapers
25 about him.
1 Recently, I heard something on the
2 television, that he was acquitted on the count of
3 genocide, and I just happened to turn the television on
4 at the time. And I heard it on the Bosnian television
5 programme, I heard this brief report, and that was all.
6 Q. So you appear to have learned something of
7 Jelisic after the time when he left your home, and you
8 learned that he was accused of killings?
9 A. Well, I learned of this. As I said, I can't
10 exactly tell you. Maybe a year or year and a half
11 ago. And then the next time, just now when I gave a
12 statement to the attorney and when they asked me
13 whether Goran stayed at my house or not and how that
14 happened. But prior to that, no, I didn't know about
15 this. Moreover, I had not heard or seen anything of
16 Goran after he had left my house.
17 Q. Everything you told us so far -- I have a few
18 more questions to ask you, but everything you've told
19 us so far fits with Goran using your house as a place
20 to hide away, doesn't it?
21 A. Well, as I said, he told me that he was a
22 member of the reserve police, that his superiors or
23 somebody else made him, forced him, to do the killings,
24 and that he could not stand it and had to flee because
25 he was threatened that -- they threatened that they
1 would eliminate him if he didn't follow orders. And
2 this is probably why he fled; not to my house, because
3 I didn't know him prior to this, but to the other
4 place.
5 Q. I'm grateful for that last answer, because
6 it's the thing I was going to turn to.
7 Let me just make sure I've got it accurate.
8 "They threatened that they would eliminate him if he
9 didn't follow orders." Does that relate to the
10 killings that he apparently may have been involved in?
11 A. I don't know. I couldn't tell you that. I
12 don't know what this relates to. Why did they want to
13 eliminate him? All I know is that he cried. He was
14 taking the medication, the tranquillisers. He was
15 saying that he could not kill innocent people, torture
16 them, and this is why he ran away from there, so that
17 they wouldn't force him to carry out the orders.
18 Q. You said, when you first answered questions
19 to the Defence attorney, that he was an ordinary
20 policeman in Brcko. Did he really tell you that, that
21 he had worked as an ordinary --
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. -- policeman?
24 A. He told me that, yes. He told me he was in
25 the reserve police and he worked as an ordinary
1 policeman. This is what he told me. I don't know
2 what, in fact, he was.
3 Q. It's not a question, then, on his account, of
4 his having been taken specially to Brcko to perform the
5 duties of dealing with Muslims or anything like that?
6 A. I don't know why he was taken to Brcko or
7 what transpired there. As I said, Brcko is 90
8 kilometres away from my village, so I really don't know
9 what took place there; just the little bit that I heard
10 on television. I never even visited Brcko, nor even
11 Bijeljina.
12 MR. LONDROVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise
13 to my learned colleague. If I could address the
14 Judges.
15 Goran is not feeling well, so he would like
16 to know if he could leave the courtroom.
17 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes, Goran
18 Jelisic can leave the courtroom. Has he given
19 authorisation that the Defence will continue?
20 All right, guard, have the accused taken
21 out.
22 THE ACCUSED JELISIC: [Interpretation] Thank
23 you, Your Honour.
24 [The accused withdrew]
25 MR. NICE:
1 Q. You told us that Jelisic told you that as an
2 ordinary policeman, he was forced to torture and kill
3 people. Let's deal with the torture first.
4 What torture did he have to perform on
5 people?
6 A. I truly didn't ask him that, nor would I
7 muster the courage to ask him that. I simply saw that
8 this caused him a great deal of pain, and he cried and
9 took the medication, so I did not want to discuss this
10 topic with him. He simply mentioned this once in a
11 conversation, and then I never touched upon this
12 subject again.
13 To tell you the truth, I wasn't interested in
14 it because I thought that he was a young person, and he
15 needed one day to establish his family, and I could see
16 on him that it was difficult for him. This was not --
17 it did not suit him. He did not give an impression of
18 that kind of person, of young man.
19 Q. This man could have been lying to you through
20 his teeth, madam, couldn't he? You would have no way
21 of knowing whether what he was telling you was true or
22 false?
23 A. I had no way of knowing, but that's his
24 business, whether he lied or not. I really can't tell
25 you about that. And I didn't want to go into this any
1 further. I already felt terrible as it was when that
2 war started, and I simply felt terrible. People did
3 not do anything to cause this. This was simply
4 imposed. And I did not want to talk to him about
5 this. Whether he lied or not, that's his business.
6 Q. But he told you that he had tortured people,
7 and --
8 A. He didn't tell me that he tortured people.
9 He didn't tell me that he tortured people. He said
10 that his superiors forced him or pushed him into
11 torturing people, but whether he himself tortured or
12 killed people, I don't know. He simply said that he
13 had to leave because they threatened to eliminate him
14 if he did not do it.
15 Q. Do you have any idea what form of torture he
16 was referring to? I'll just help you to this extent:
17 The defendant has been interviewed by investigators at
18 great length, and he will barely accept that he even
19 beat anyone with a stick. He occasionally accepts that
20 he hit people with a stick, but he never says he went
21 any further than that.
22 Now, when he told you he was torturing
23 people, what did you have in mind? What did he
24 indicate?
25 A. Well, he didn't tell me that he tortured
1 people nor that he killed people. He didn't tell me
2 that. He said -- and I heard this also from the
3 conversations, as I mentioned before, the
4 conversations, the telephone calls that he made from my
5 house two or three times a day, I don't know who,
6 probably superiors. In the telephone conversations he
7 was saying that he could not torture the people, that
8 he felt sorry for those people. And this is why he
9 fled, because he could not stand this.
10 Q. So you've come to my next question already.
11 The phone calls were made by him, and yet he made them
12 in your presence; are you telling us that?
13 A. Yes. I was in the house. I was taking care
14 of the household when he made those calls and argued
15 with these people, I don't know whom. He was saying,
16 "Why are you linking this to me? Why are you
17 burdening me with this?"
18 I don't know what the people were saying to
19 him on the other end. I really don't know about that.
20 But I heard what he said, and I can confirm that he
21 cried a lot, was continuously taking tranquillisers,
22 had stomachaches, could not sleep at night, and the
23 only relaxation were really the trips to the Sava
24 River, where he could stop thinking about this.
25 Q. So if I understand your testimony correctly,
1 although he hadn't specifically admitted to you killing
2 or specifically admitted to you torturing, he did say
3 that other people were trying to force him to do these
4 things, and then he made these phone calls? Would that
5 be accurate?
6 A. Yes. He made the phone calls, yes, saying
7 that he didn't do it and that he could not do it. And
8 once again, he was saying those people were innocent,
9 they were not guilty of anything, that he himself was
10 not guilty when he was on the front in Croatia and was
11 later tortured and mistreated for that. And he didn't
12 really know the people that tortured him at the time,
13 and why would he now torture these people, who really
14 had had nothing to do with this war, the innocent
15 people?
16 Q. He made no effort to keep these telephone
17 calls private? Made no effort to stop you hearing
18 them?
19 A. No.
20 Q. And, of course, you couldn't --
21 A. Perhaps he also had some conversations when
22 he went outside of my house, fishing, but these calls
23 that I was referring to were made from my house, and I
24 don't know anything about other conversations. I don't
25 think that he made other calls outside of my house.
1 Q. You never heard a phone call coming to your
2 house? These were all outgoing phone calls? That, I
3 think, is what you're --
4 A. Yes, he made the calls from my house. Yes.
5 He called from my house. Nobody called him because
6 nobody knew where he was staying. When he was making
7 the phone calls, he did not say where he was calling
8 from.
9 Q. You don't know if there was anybody at the
10 other end of the line at all, do you, madam? Because
11 you didn't hear anyone.
12 A. I heard something from the other end. I
13 believe that when you make phone calls, that someone
14 else standing nearby can hear the voices on the other
15 end. Yes, I did hear the calls, and I heard him
16 replying. Of course, I don't know what they were
17 saying on the other end. I heard him talking to
18 somebody, but who he was talking to, I really don't
19 know.
20 Q. Can you really tell us that after all these
21 years, on an event that passed in a few weeks, you can
22 now tell us that you could hear someone at the other
23 end of the line, madam? Or have you seen the
24 proposition that I'm about to put to you?
25 A. I heard from the other end that -- voices.
1 That's natural. Even now, if you were to take a
2 telephone and talk to somebody, we would hear that
3 there was somebody on the other end.
4 Q. You see, all that you have described, will
5 you accept, fits with Jelisic creating the image of an
6 innocent man and using you as a potential witness in
7 due course, doesn't it?
8 A. I don't know how to reply to this. I saw
9 that he was an innocent young person. I cannot
10 comprehend that a person can cry, and pretend to be
11 anxious, not be able to sleep, and at the same time do
12 these things on his own free will. I simply could not
13 understand this.
14 Q. You see, his whereabouts once he was in your
15 house need not have been known to the so-called
16 superiors, need they? Nobody knew where he was.
17 A. Yes, nobody knew where he was, at least I
18 believe that he didn't say to anyone where he was,
19 where he was making the phone calls from.
20 Q. If he wanted to escape from these people, he
21 gives no reason for ringing them up and telling them
22 anything about himself, does he?
23 A. Well, I told you that he fled because they
24 wanted to eliminate him for failing to carry out
25 orders, and this is why he escaped here, to this area.
1 I repeat that he said that he felt sorry for those
2 people, innocent people who didn't cause the war, just
3 like no other individuals, the people themselves,
4 didn't really cause the war. We were not at fault,
5 just like we were not at fault with this other war, the
6 war in Serbia and Yugoslavia.
7 Q. This man has been examined by others. It
8 will be for the Judges to decide in due course, but he
9 may be a manipulative man who uses people. All you've
10 described is his really using you as someone who can be
11 made into a witness. Do you accept that?
12 A. No. I think that maybe he thought it would
13 never come to this, that he would be brought before the
14 court or something like that. Why would he -- and now
15 that he is detained, it is only natural that one seeks
16 anybody who can speak to his defence, to say what one
17 knows and to confirm what he did in my house. And as
18 far as the rest is concerned, I really don't know
19 anything about it.
20 Q. He certainly was capable of being
21 manipulative in relation to the plaster on his leg, for
22 you can explain that there was no injury to the leg at
23 all, was there? The plaster cast was entirely a sham.
24 A. Yes, that plaster was a false one. But he
25 came up with this idea when we were talking about how
1 could he cross the border without those people of his
2 arresting him, because they were threatening to
3 eliminate him. So this is how he came up with this
4 idea to put his healthy leg into a plaster cast to help
5 him cross the border and to make it seem as though he
6 broke the leg, or did something to it. I'm not quite
7 sure what.
8 But he really, truly wanted to go back, and I
9 know that he was saying to those people on the phone,
10 "I am not guilty. I will come back one day and prove
11 that I'm not guilty."
12 This is how it was, and I don't know what
13 else to tell you. I don't know if you have -- if you
14 have any other questions, please go ahead.
15 Q. The shop that he was going to buy, how much
16 would that have cost? Any idea?
17 A. He didn't want to buy. He wanted to lease it
18 and to open a sort of a general store. I know it was
19 in a certain street where he, in the end, never even
20 went to. Moreover, maybe he paid a lease, rent to the
21 owner of that shop. Somebody -- later on, he left, as
22 I said, in mid-September; he left and never came back.
23 That shop was never opened, in fact. So that's all I
24 can tell you.
25 Q. Did he tell you where he had the money, as a
1 reserve policeman, to open a shop?
2 A. I didn't ask him that. I really don't know.
3 I don't know whether it was his parents who wanted to
4 help him, or somebody else. I really didn't ask him.
5 But when the shops are typically opened in our area,
6 people usually do it through payment in instalments.
7 They simply pay in 15 days, in a month, or in two,
8 because typically, once you sell the goods, then you
9 are able to make some instalment payments. At least
10 this is the typical practice in our area, and I don't
11 know how it is done here.
12 Q. So he didn't tell you, did he, about having
13 either the proceeds of previous crime, because he's a
14 man who'd had committed offences of dishonesty with
15 cheques, he didn't tell you anything about that, did
16 he?
17 A. No, no.
18 Q. [Previous translation continues]... with
19 dishonesty, would you, madam?
20 A. Well, that's right, and I don't believe that
21 it was him and that he's a dishonest person. Where he
22 got the money and all that, I really don't know. I
23 don't know that he had any money, how much money he
24 had. I know that I bought him the medicines for his
25 stomach and the tranquillisers which I brought from the
1 hospital.
2 Q. He didn't tell you that he got money from the
3 Muslims who were detained at the camp, many of whom
4 were murdered for absolutely no reason, their money
5 being taken off them? He didn't tell you about that,
6 and again you wouldn't believe that, would you?
7 A. No.
8 Q. You see --
9 A. No, he didn't tell me at all anything about
10 that. We didn't discuss anything like that at all.
11 And as I say, he -- well, regarding that topic, the war
12 and those people and the innocent people that he was
13 sorry for, we didn't talk much about that because he
14 wanted to calm down and not to have to think about
15 things like that. So, in fact, that was the topic that
16 we discussed least.
17 Q. And you wouldn't believe, would you, that he
18 would be capable of taking money from Muslims in the
19 circumstances I've just described?
20 A. No.
21 Q. The only thing he did make quite clear, one
22 way or another, was that the people whose killings were
23 being discussed on the phone, the people whom he was
24 being persuaded to torture and kill, were people who,
25 to his knowledge, were completely innocent?
1 A. Those people who forced him to do things, to
2 kill, to torture the people, as he told me, those were
3 his superiors, and from that reserve police force, he
4 was not a boss of any kind. He just said he was an
5 ordinary policeman.
6 Q. The victims, to his knowledge, were
7 completely innocent?
8 A. Well, I say once again, he didn't tell me
9 that he had killed anybody, but he said -- and he cried
10 and said that he couldn't kill and torture and abuse
11 innocent people who were not guilty of anything and to
12 torture them. And I've said many times that he kept
13 crying, that he could find no peace, and that he had to
14 take the medicaments to calm himself, that he could
15 find no peace because of his superiors, whom he kept
16 ringing up and kept telling them that he could not take
17 it any more and that he had to leave. That's all I
18 know.
19 MR. NICE: Thank you.
20 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I think we're
21 going in circles here, to some extent. I say this for
22 both the parties, Defence and Prosecution.
23 In character testimony, given the number of
24 witnesses called by the Defence, and I say this for the
25 Prosecution as well, we could probably limit the number
1 of questions. The witnesses come to talk about what
2 they've seen, a fact, an act, and then explain what
3 they've seen. But then move quickly.
4 This Witness DH has already said everything
5 that had to be said. The rest is just some comments to
6 be made or additions to be made, and I think that we
7 can then go on.
8 Do you have anything that you would like to
9 supplement, Mr. Greaves, in respect of what the
10 Prosecutor said somewhat lengthily? Rapidly, please,
11 Mr. Greaves.
12 MR. GREAVES: I have two matters in
13 re-examination which I wish to put.
14 Re-examined by Mr. Greaves:
15 Q. Witness DH, you were asked by my learned
16 friend for the Prosecution as to whether or not you had
17 heard of atrocities committed in Brcko. Without
18 identifying the area in which you live, in which of the
19 constituent republics of the former Yugoslavia do you
20 live?
21 A. In Serbia.
22 Q. In the past, has Serbian television carried
23 extensive reporting of alleged atrocities committed by
24 Serbs during the course of the war?
25 A. Well, the television did inform, but I don't
1 watch television much or the press. The television did
2 say that there was fighting going on in Teocak -- I
3 don't know where that is -- in Tuzla, in Zvornik, in
4 Majevica, in Brcko, Bijeljina, that kind of thing.
5 They mentioned those places, but I don't even know
6 where those places are.
7 Q. You were asked about Goran Jelisic's
8 financial arrangements. When he was with you, did he
9 pay you any rent?
10 A. No.
11 Q. And at that time, was he in a position to pay
12 you any rent, as far as you knew?
13 A. Well, believe me, I didn't even ask that of
14 him; nor do I know whether he was able to pay, in a
15 position to pay, or not. It never entered my head to
16 ask him to pay me. I said that I had taken him in
17 because he was a friend of my son-in-law's. There were
18 other young men there from that place, and that's it.
19 I didn't even try to ask him to pay rent. I
20 wouldn't -- it would never come into my head to do so;
21 nor would I take any money from him.
22 MR. GREAVES: Thank you, Witness DH.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're
24 welcome.
25 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Judge Riad.
1 Judge Rodrigues. I have no questions either.
2 Thank you, Witness DH. You've taken a long
3 trip, and we are appreciative of that. I think that
4 you've said everything you had to say, and now you can
5 return home.
6 We're going to adjourn, and we will resume at
7 2.30.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I ask Your
9 Honours something? May I see Goran Jelisic, because
10 after 1992, from September onwards, I have never seen
11 him. Is there any possibility for me to see him?
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] The request is
14 not granted, madam. Jelisic is in the detention unit.
15 He was declared guilty but has not yet been convicted
16 or acquitted.
17 If the rules at the detention unit allow
18 visits, the registrar will tell you. Is that
19 possible?
20 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Yes. A
21 request has to be made to meet with Goran Jelisic at
22 the detention unit.
23 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] But in order to
24 give you authorisation now in front of the Judges, that
25 is out of the question.
1 Mr. Greaves, did you want to say something?
2 MR. GREAVES: No. I was merely going to
3 assist Your Honour, that we're well aware of the
4 present procedure by which people can see the
5 defendant, and Your Honour is entirely right. It is a
6 matter within the aegis of the Registry.
7 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you,
8 Mr. Greaves, thank you for your assistance, and try to
9 help the legitimate request that we understand is made
10 by the witness. But I'm sure that you'll understand
11 the Judges' position, who must be impartial in the
12 proceedings all the way to the end, to the point their
13 decision is issued.
14 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1 p.m.
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1 --- On resuming at 2.35 p.m.
2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We will now
3 resume the hearing. Please be seated. Have the
4 accused brought in.
5 [The accused entered court]
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19 [Open session]
20 [The witness entered court]
21 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Witness DD,
22 that is what we're going to call you. Do you hear me?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
24 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] First, check
25 your names on the piece of paper that you're being
1 shown. Don't say them. We want to be sure that that
2 is your name.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 Remain standing and take an oath. Please proceed.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly
7 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,
8 and nothing but the truth.
9 WITNESS: WITNESS DD
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you,
12 Witness DD. You may now be seated.
13 You are in front of Judges of the
14 International Criminal Tribunal. You have come here at
15 the request of Goran Jelisic's Defence counsel. Goran
16 Jelisic, who has been accused of war crimes and crimes
17 against humanity, is on your left in this courtroom.
18 As I'm sure has been explained to you, you're
19 first to answer Defence counsel's questions,
20 Mr. Greaves' questions, and then the Prosecutor's, and
21 finally the Judges, if they have any questions they
22 wish to ask you.
23 Mr. Greaves, please proceed.
24 MR. GREAVES: Does Your Honour wish me to
25 wait until the blinds are open, as we're in open
1 session?
2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes, that's
3 correct.
4 The protected measures you requested,
5 Witness DD, have been granted. Do not worry. This is
6 a public hearing, but your facial image has been
7 distorted, so there is nothing to fear.
8 MR. GREAVES: I think we're nearly there, so
9 I'll start, if I may.
10 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We are missing
11 one blind, but I suppose we could just get one more up
12 there.
13 MR. GREAVES: I see the usher has a modern
14 technological device for opening blinds.
15 Thank you very much, Your Honour.
16 Examined by Mr. Greaves:
17 Q. Witness DD, would you be so kind, please, as
18 to tell us what your ethnic background is?
19 A. I'm a Muslim, Bosniak Muslim.
20 Q. How long have you known the defendant in this
21 case, Goran Jelisic?
22 A. I'm not quite clear on the question. You
23 mean the years, how many years, or something else?
24 I've known him since he was a young man.
25 Q. Do you know his parents?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. How was it that you would come into contact
3 normally with Goran Jelisic?
4 A. Well, as I'm a sportsman in town and deal
5 with sports, I had a player and I was coach in
6 Bijeljina, and I had contacts with Goran, who would
7 always come to the matches, whether it was handball or
8 volleyball, as a young boy from the economics school.
9 He was a sportsman with -- he would come with his
10 friends, and I got to know him well there.
11 Q. Were you able to observe him in the company
12 of other young men of his age?
13 A. Yes. He had friends, but he liked sport, and
14 he would come to attend the seniors' training sessions
15 in our town.
16 Q. And the kind of friends that he had, were
17 they people of his own race, Serbian, or were they
18 Muslim, or was it a mixed group of friends?
19 A. It was a mixed group of friends. They were
20 also friends with my own son, who is the same age as
21 him.
22 Q. I'll ask you some more questions about your
23 son in due course, but as far as your observations of
24 the defendant were concerned at this time, did you see
25 any conduct on his part that gave you cause for concern
1 that he was behaving badly towards other people of
2 other racial groups?
3 A. No. Never.
4 Q. Did there come a time during the war in
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina when you got to know Goran Jelisic
6 rather better?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Was that after he moved into your
9 neighbourhood?
10 A. No, we knew each other before that.
11 Q. I understand that, but did he move closer to
12 your home at some stage?
13 A. Yes, he did, in the course of the war.
14 Q. Can you remember which year that was?
15 A. I think it was in '93, the second half of
16 1993.
17 Q. After he'd moved closer to your home, did you
18 get to know him rather better at that time?
19 A. Yes, (redacted)
20 (redacted).
21 Q. And would he come to your house?
22 A. Yes, he would. He would come to collect my
23 son because, as I say, they were the same age and were
24 friends.
25 Q. When he came to see your son, would he spend
1 time in your house and sit and talk with you?
2 A. Generally he would go to sports events or
3 fishing, but we would sit down and have a coffee in the
4 yard.
5 Q. Although -- did Goran know that you were a
6 Muslim?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did he ever treat you in a way that offended
9 your background?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Were there other Muslims living in your
12 neighbourhood?
13 A. Yes, a lot of them.
14 Q. Did Goran have contact with those people, as
15 far as you know?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Are you aware from any of those people of any
18 conduct towards them that was unpleasant because of
19 their ethnic background?
20 A. No. I never heard about or learned anything
21 like that, (redacted).
22 Q. Do you have a lady neighbour called -- I
23 think (redacted), or -- is that the correct pronunciation?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. How close to your home does she live?
1 A. (redacted)
2 (redacted).
3 Q. Was there an incident that occurred at her
4 house involving some damage?
5 A. No, not between Goran and them. Somebody
6 else caused an incident, and then Goran did something
7 nice with respect to them, something quite honourable.
8 Because the woman is quite poor, and the windows were
9 broken, so he hired somebody to repair it.
10 Q. First of all --
11 A. Paid for somebody to repair it.
12 Q. The lady concerned, is she Muslim?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What was it that happened at the house that
15 caused the windows to be broken?
16 A. Somebody during the night was passing by in
17 the car and threw a bomb into the yard. We heard it,
18 and we got up to see what happened. The windows had
19 been broken. I don't know where Goran was at the
20 moment, but he came just like we did, the rest of us,
21 and he saw what had happened, and then he looked for
22 someone to repair the windows, and he paid for the
23 repair.
24 Q. And the craftsman who came to repair the
25 windows, did he levy any charge for his work?
1 A. He didn't want to charge for his labour. He
2 only charged for the material, for glass.
3 Q. As far as you know, did Goran know that this
4 lady was Muslim?
5 A. Yes, yes.
6 Q. When was it, Witness DD, that you first
7 became aware of Goran Jelisic being in trouble over
8 alleged killings?
9 A. Do you mean which year? I learned it through
10 newspapers, through media. Television, newspapers.
11 Q. In which year would be helpful, please,
12 Witness DD.
13 A. I think it was after the war, the war in
14 Bosnia.
15 Q. And between 1993 and the time of his arrest,
16 did he continue to go out with your son and take your
17 son out?
18 A. Yes. He did. He took him in a car to Banja
19 Luka, Zvornik, Doboj. They went to Bijeljina, sports
20 matches, and they would typically, on Saturday and
21 Sunday, go fishing as well. But nothing ever
22 happened. He would always bring my son back on time,
23 and everything had always been all right.
24 Q. And did you ever worry, because of the
25 conditions that prevailed at the time, about where they
1 were going and things like that? Or did you trust
2 Goran to look after him?
3 A. I trusted Goran, because prior to that,
4 nothing had ever happened, and I knew him before as a
5 nice and honest boy. As a parent, of course, I had to
6 worry, because they would stay late at night; the
7 matches would last till 10.00 or 11.00 at night. But
8 thank God nothing ever happened, either to my son or
9 anyone else.
10 Q. As the Tribunal knows, this defendant has
11 pleaded guilty to the killing of a number of Muslims
12 during 1992, May 1992. Does that surprise you, given
13 the person that you had got to know over a number of
14 years?
15 A. Yes, because I didn't know him as such, him
16 or his parents.
17 MR. GREAVES: Would Your Honours give me a
18 moment, please.
19 [Defence counsel confer]
20 MR. GREAVES:
21 Q. Yes, thank you very much, Witness DD. Would
22 you be so kind as to wait there, please, and answer any
23 questions.
24 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you,
25 Mr. Greaves.
1 Mr. Nice, on behalf of the Prosecutor, is now
2 going to ask you some questions.
3 Mr. Nice, please proceed.
4 MR. NICE: Thank you.
5 Cross-examined by Mr. Nice:
6 Q. Witness DD, before the war, Jelisic got on
7 with young people of all types in much the same way
8 that everyone else got on with people of all ethnic
9 types; would that be correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you know him personally? Did you see him
12 between 1989 and 1992?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Regularly?
15 A. Considering -- yes, considering my age and
16 Goran's age. I would see him with my son in town, and
17 because of my job, I would see him at the matches,
18 various sports activities. We certainly couldn't see
19 each other every day.
20 Q. Were you entirely unaware of the criminal
21 practices that he was developing over that period of
22 time?
23 A. I did not understand your question. Was I
24 aware of ...
25 Q. He never revealed to you, and it was never
1 revealed to you by anyone else, that he was engaging in
2 crime?
3 A. No.
4 Q. To quite a significant extent. He was
5 embezzling money in substantial sums. You never knew
6 of that?
7 A. No.
8 Q. So that when you describe him as an honest
9 person, if it be the case -- and he's accepted this --
10 if it be the case that he was involved in crime between
11 1989 and 1992, he kept that from you, and you didn't
12 detect it in him?
13 A. Let me repeat once again: Considering our
14 different age, we weren't really friends. I would see
15 him at the matches, and I would basically -- I knew him
16 through the matches, through somebody who was
17 participating and attending. I did not know anything
18 about the criminal activities.
19 Q. And you weren't aware at that time of any
20 drug or alcohol problem that he had?
21 A. No.
22 Q. In 1993, he and you were living -- you
23 haven't given the town, but I think we can give the
24 town without revealing your identity -- was it in
25 Bijeljina?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. He had no difficulties living there. He
3 wasn't under threat of any kind that you were aware of?
4 A. No.
5 Q. And he said absolutely nothing to you about
6 what he'd done in Brcko himself?
7 A. No, never.
8 MR. NICE: Thank you.
9 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I would like to
10 thank Mr. Nice for his concision.
11 Mr. Greaves, do you want to supplement
12 something in respect of the questions that the
13 Prosecutor asked?
14 MR. GREAVES: I have no questions which I
15 wish to put in re-examination.
16 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you. Let
17 me turn to my colleagues.
18 Judge Riad?
19 Questioned by the Court:
20 JUDGE RIAD: Good afternoon, Witness DD.
21 Could you look at me? I'm talking to you.
22 A. Good afternoon.
23 JUDGE RIAD: Please help me understand the
24 essence of your testimony, not the details.
25 In essence, you want to tell us that Jelisic
1 mixed up with people of other ethnic descendance. He
2 mixed up with Muslims, with Croats, and he had no
3 discrimination; is that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 JUDGE RIAD: Did this happen before '92 or
6 continue after '92?
7 A. Yes.
8 JUDGE RIAD: Yes, what? Did it continue
9 after '92, or you believe -- before '92, or it
10 continued after '92?
11 A. Continued after '92 as well.
12 JUDGE RIAD: Have you been in contact with
13 him all the time? Did you follow up his activities
14 after '92, before and after '92?
15 A. Before '92, I told you under what
16 circumstances we met in those times. And after '92, I
17 would see him as well. Since it was wartime, I had --
18 I was assigned certain work assignments, work duties,
19 so I would see Goran in my free time. But he continued
20 to be friends with my son and take him to matches,
21 sports matches, and he continued to be friendly with
22 all ethnic groups, as far as I could see, in view of
23 the fact that I was fairly busy at the time myself.
24 JUDGE RIAD: I just want some precision. You
25 could see him, but did you know his activities, or you
1 just saw him with your son? When you were asked by the
2 Prosecutor about his activities between '89 and '92,
3 you didn't know anything about it, so what was
4 exactly --
5 A. No.
6 JUDGE RIAD: -- the relationship? It's just
7 seeing him with his son? Or following, did you know
8 his parents, to start with?
9 A. Yes.
10 JUDGE RIAD: What were his parents and what
11 was his life with his parents?
12 A. His father worked, and I think he's still
13 working at an office, and mother as well, but they had
14 quite a solid life. I know his parents well. We live
15 in the same city, neighbouring streets. And as far as
16 his activities between '89 and '92, I really didn't
17 know anything about it. This is the first time I'm
18 hearing about it.
19 JUDGE RIAD: Do you know if he has been
20 brought up by his parents until the end, or did he
21 leave his house, his home, early in his life?
22 A. As far as I know, his parents brought him
23 up. He graduated from the elementary school in
24 Bijeljina, and then he continued through high school.
25 And as far as his life afterwards is concerned, I don't
1 know.
2 JUDGE RIAD: You don't know. Was your son of
3 the same age as him or was he much younger?
4 A. No, my son is two years older than Goran.
5 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.
6 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Questions for
7 Judge Rodrigues. I have no further questions either.
8 We thank you, Witness DD, for your
9 contribution to the edification of the Judges so that
10 they can evaluate the sentence that they must pronounce
11 against Goran Jelisic.
12 You have completed your testimony now. You
13 will be escorted out of the courtroom by the usher.
14 Thank you very much. And then the next witness can be
15 brought in. You are completely protected, and you can
16 leave the courtroom now.
17 [The witness withdrew]
18 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, whilst we're
19 waiting for the next witness, my client has requested
20 whether he may, with Your Honour's leave, go back to
21 the detention unit. He's been feeling unwell since
22 this morning, and it was thought that he might not want
23 to be able to stay after lunch. He came in, but he's
24 now requesting whether he may go back. So perhaps Your
25 Honour could just quickly check with him that he's
1 happy to continue in his absence.
2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Jelisic, do
3 you authorise your counsel to conduct the hearing
4 without your being there?
5 THE ACCUSED JELISIC: [Interpretation] Yes,
6 Your Honour. I do not wish to prolong the proceedings
7 due to my health. I have a fever, I'm running a fever,
8 and I'm not feeling too well.
9 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] All right.
10 You'll be treated at the detention unit. The guards
11 can now escort you out of the courtroom. Perhaps we
12 could wait for the witness to be brought in.
13 THE ACCUSED JELISIC: [Interpretation] Thank
14 you, Your Honour.
15 [The accused withdrew]
16 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] The next
17 witness?
18 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The next
19 witness is Witness -- this will be Witness DF.
20 [The witness entered court]
21 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Do you hear me,
22 Witness DF? We're going to call you "Witness DF"
23 because your identity must be protected.
24 First look at the piece of paper being shown
25 to you to be sure that this is, in fact, you. But do
1 not say your name. Just check to see that that is you,
2 and tell us "Yes" if it is.
3 You seem to have a doubt there. Is it your
4 name; are you sure?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
6 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] All right.
7 We're going to ask you to take an oath now.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly
9 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,
10 and nothing but the truth.
11 WITNESS: WITNESS DF
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you. You
14 may be seated now. Witness DF, you may be seated.
15 Try to relax. You are being covered by
16 protective measures. Nobody will see your face.
17 First, the Defence counsel of the accused,
18 who is not here but is ill, is going to ask you some
19 questions. Then it will be the Prosecutor's turn, and
20 if necessary, the Judges will add some questions for
21 their own edification.
22 Mr. Greaves, you may proceed.
23 Examined by Mr. Greaves:
24 Q. Witness DF, would you tell us, please, what
25 your ethnic background is?
1 A. I'm a Serb.
2 Q. How long have you known Goran Jelisic?
3 A. I've known Goran Jelisic since 1984.
4 Q. And since 1984, have you become a good friend
5 of Goran Jelisic?
6 A. Yes, I became a good friend of Goran Jelisic.
7 Q. And would it be right to describe you as
8 being one of his circle of friends?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. In that group of friends, what was the ethnic
11 mix? Was it all Serbian or were there other
12 nationalities represented in his circle of friends?
13 A. Among Goran Jelisic's friends, there were
14 Muslims and Serbs.
15 Q. When the war broke out in Bosnia-Herzegovina,
16 were you mobilised into the military forces?
17 A. Yes. I was drafted by the crisis
18 headquarters.
19 Q. And were you a soldier who had rank or were
20 you just an ordinary private soldier?
21 A. I did not have a rank. I was an ordinary
22 private soldier.
23 Q. How long did you remain in the armed forces,
24 Witness DF?
25 A. I remained in the armed forces until
1 September, when I was wounded.
2 Q. During the time of your service, can you tell
3 us about this: What was the nature of military
4 discipline in the armed forces in which you served?
5 Was it strict?
6 A. Yes, it was strict, highly strict, and we
7 were severely punished for minor mistakes.
8 Q. And were you expected to give unquestioning
9 obedience to orders that were given to you?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What were the consequences of a failure to
12 obey orders?
13 A. The consequences involved severe punishment,
14 even a threat to be court-martialled.
15 Q. As far as you know, was that a situation
16 which obtained throughout the security services that
17 operated in your area?
18 A. As far as I know, that applied to entire
19 armed forces, as far as I know.
20 Q. I'd like to ask you now, please, about May
21 1992. During the course of that month, did you meet
22 with Goran Jelisic?
23 A. I met Goran sometime in the middle of May,
24 about May 15th. We met on the outskirts of Brcko,
25 because at that time this is where my unit had been
1 situated. And since we didn't see each other from the
2 beginning of the war in Bijeljina, we went to a cafe to
3 have a drink and talk.
4 Q. Had it been long since you had seen him?
5 A. Well, as I said, I didn't see him since the
6 war broke out in Bijeljina. I saw him prior to that,
7 two or three days prior to that.
8 Q. How was he dressed when you saw him?
9 A. He had a police uniform on him.
10 Q. How long did you spend with him that day?
11 A. I couldn't tell you exactly. Perhaps 30
12 minutes.
13 Q. Did he tell you what business or what
14 activities he was engaged in at that time?
15 A. I remember him telling me that he was a
16 member of the reserve police in Luka.
17 Q. During the course of that conversation, did
18 he tell you in any detail of what it was that he was
19 doing as a reserve policeman?
20 A. Yes, I remember that. He told me that he had
21 to do some bad things which he was asked to do. And I
22 asked him what bad things, and he said he had to kill
23 on orders, from orders by others; otherwise, he himself
24 would be killed.
25 Q. Did he tell you who it was that he was being
1 told to kill?
2 A. No, he didn't tell me that.
3 Q. Did he tell you who it was who was giving the
4 orders?
5 A. No.
6 Q. What was his demeanour at the time he was
7 telling you this?
8 A. Well, from the start of the meeting, I saw
9 that he was psychologically distressed. And when he
10 told me what he did, he began crying. He suddenly
11 jumped up and left the cafe, and I remained sitting
12 there, astounded.
13 Q. Did you ask him to give further details of
14 what sort of killings he was carrying out?
15 A. No. I didn't have time to ask him anything.
16 Q. After you had completed your tour of duty on
17 the front line, did you go to visit the defendant,
18 Goran Jelisic?
19 A. Yes, towards the end of the month. The shift
20 was over and I went home, and a day or two later, I
21 went to Goran Jelisic's home to see if he was there, to
22 visit him and see what had happened to him. I found
23 his sister at home, Biljana Jelisic, and she told me
24 that he had succeeded in fleeing and that he was now
25 somewhere in Serbia. That's all she told me.
1 Q. Did you remain in the armed services until
2 you were wounded?
3 A. Yes, I continued going to the front in
4 shifts, and when it was my turn, I went to the front
5 until September, when I was wounded.
6 Q. And did you remain in hospital until the end
7 of the year?
8 A. No.
9 Q. How long did you remain in hospital?
10 A. I remained in hospital about a month.
11 Q. And did you then return to your home?
12 A. Yes, I went home.
13 Q. Witness DF, can you tell us, please, this:
14 In late 1992, were you by then married?
15 A. I married in 1988.
16 Q. What's the ethnic background of your wife,
17 please?
18 A. My wife is a Muslim.
19 Q. And I think -- is this also right, that
20 another member of your family is married to a Muslim?
21 A. My sister's married to a Muslim.
22 Q. Did anything happen to you because of those
23 relationships to Muslims?
24 A. Well, I had problems because of that from the
25 very beginning of the war, but at the end of 1992, a
1 group of people stormed my house. They had caps on
2 their heads, and they beat me up. The reason for this
3 was my connection with the Muslims, because my wife was
4 a Muslim and because my sister was married to a
5 Muslim.
6 Q. Yes. Would you wait there, please,
7 Witness DF.
8 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] The Prosecutor
9 is now going to ask you some questions, questions that
10 he considers appropriate to ask you.
11 Mr. Nice, please proceed.
12 Cross-examined by Mr. Nice:
13 Q. You were friends with Jelisic before the
14 war. Were you close friends?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Would you say that you and he were much like
17 one another in general habits and behaviour?
18 A. Well, most of our mutual friends were -- we
19 were alike.
20 Q. You had the same approach, did you, to
21 various things: to girls, or to sport, or to how you
22 behaved? Would you say that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. I'll return to that in a minute, but first of
25 all I just want one detail of your evidence. When were
1 you first asked to cast your mind back to this day in
2 1992 when Jelisic told you about what he had been
3 doing?
4 A. Nobody asked me. I remembered on my own.
5 Q. Yes, well, did you go to the lawyers and say,
6 "I'm an available witness," or did someone come to you
7 and ask you if you could help?
8 A. Well, the family asked me to help. The
9 family of the accused.
10 Q. When did they make that request?
11 A. After Goran Jelisic had been arrested.
12 Q. And at that stage, were you able to remember
13 this day in 1992 when he told you how he was being
14 forced to kill other people?
15 A. That day, yes, I remembered and will remember
16 for as long as I am alive.
17 Q. And the date again?
18 A. I couldn't tell you exactly, but it was the
19 middle of May: the 15th or the 16th, perhaps.
20 Q. What was the force that Jelisic said was
21 applied to him that compelled him to kill other people?
22 A. Goran Jelisic didn't tell me any details. He
23 just said that he was forced to kill other people or
24 else he would be killed himself.
25 Q. So he told you in terms that he was at risk
1 of being killed, did he?
2 A. Yes.
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr.
11 Greaves.
12 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, I wonder whether
13 we might do this in private session, please, because
14 these are matters which might serve to identify the
15 witness.
16 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes, that's
17 correct. You're absolutely right.
18 Private session, please.
19 Continue, Mr. Nice, but wait until we are in
20 private session.
21 [Private session]
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
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13 pages 2711-2727 redacted - private session
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7 (redacted)
8 [Open session]
9 THE REGISTRAR: This is Witness DE.
10 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Do you hear me,
11 Witness DE? Do you hear me? This is the Presiding
12 Judge speaking. Would you please look at me. Look at
13 me, please. Please look at me. That's it, look at
14 me. I'm not going to hurt you. Don't worry.
15 Please check your names on the piece of paper
16 which is being given to you by the usher, and nod if
17 that, in fact, is you.
18 It is you. Very well. Please remain
19 standing as long as it takes to take the oath.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly
21 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,
22 and nothing but the truth.
23 WITNESS: WITNESS DE
24 [Witness answered through interpreter]
25 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Please be
1 seated.
2 You have agreed to come to the International
3 Criminal Tribunal to testify for Goran Jelisic, who is
4 not in this courtroom because he's ill but who, as you
5 know, admitted his guilt to war crimes and crimes
6 against humanity. The Defence counsel will ask you
7 some questions, then the Prosecution, and then probably
8 or perhaps the Judges.
9 Mr. Greaves, please proceed.
10 Examined by Mr. Greaves:
11 Q. Witness DE -- it would help if I turned on my
12 microphone. Witness DE, would you please tell us what
13 your ethnic background is?
14 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness come
15 closer to the microphone, please, the interpreters
16 note.
17 A. A Muslim.
18 MR. GREAVES:
19 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us, please, when it
20 was that you first met Goran Jelisic?
21 A. 1985.
22 Q. And subsequently did you become friends with
23 Goran Jelisic?
24 A. In 1985, we met. In 1986, we became friends
25 with Goran Jelisic.
1 Q. When the war broke out in Bosnia-Herzegovina,
2 did you and your family go outside the former
3 Yugoslavia?
4 A. I left it in November of 1992.
5 Q. And during the time that you have known Goran
6 Jelisic, and in particular before the war, did he ever
7 express any sentiment to you that was hostile to
8 members of other racial or ethnic groups?
9 A. He never hated Muslims or Croats. He always
10 got along well both with Muslims and with Croats and
11 with everyone else.
12 Q. Could you tell Their Honours, please, in
13 which month it was that you went overseas, having fled
14 Bosnia-Herzegovina?
15 A. November 1992.
16 Q. Between May 1992 and November 1992, did you
17 continue to see Goran Jelisic?
18 A. I did not see Goran between May and September
19 of 1992.
20 Q. During that period before you went overseas,
21 were there any -- was there any influx of Serbian
22 refugees into your home town?
23 A. Yes, there was. A lot of people came in.
24 Q. Did you experience any problems with your
25 home as a result of the influx of refugees?
1 A. I did.
2 Q. What was the nature of the problems that you
3 experienced, Witness DE?
4 A. The problems were caused by Serbian refugees
5 who entered into our houses. They wanted to move us
6 out so that the Serbian refugees could move into our
7 houses.
8 Q. Did Goran Jelisic take any steps to prevent
9 that from happening?
10 A. Yes. He did not allow those Serbian refugees
11 to move into our houses.
12 Q. Don't tell us any names, Witness DE, but did
13 any other members of your family experience similar
14 problems?
15 A. They did.
16 Q. Do you have brothers and sisters?
17 A. I do.
18 Q. Did they experience problems of a similar
19 nature to yours, in relation to people trying to kick
20 them out of their homes?
21 A. They did.
22 Q. Did Goran Jelisic take any steps to assist
23 them in that regard?
24 A. He did.
25 Q. Again, what steps did he take to help them?
1 A. He did not allow Serbian refugees to enter
2 our Muslim houses, not only ours but our neighbours who
3 are Muslims as well, and he would get into conflict
4 with Serbian refugees on our account.
5 Q. And was your mother still alive at that time?
6 A. She was.
7 Q. Did she experience any similar problems in
8 relation to people trying to evict her from her home?
9 A. Yes, she experienced the same problems.
10 Q. And what did Goran Jelisic do in relation to
11 your mother, if anything, to help her avoid these
12 problems?
13 A. He frequently stayed overnight at my mother's
14 house so that these Serbians, refugees, would not come
15 in and mistreat her and evict her out of her house, and
16 this is how he helped her.
17 Q. In terms of you being able to leave the
18 former Yugoslavia, did Goran Jelisic assist that
19 process in any way?
20 A. He did. He took me and my family across the
21 Drina River, and he didn't take any money for that, and
22 this is how we went abroad.
23 Q. And shortly after you were taken across the
24 river, did he help any other members of your family?
25 A. He did. My brother.
1 Q. And tell us how it was that he helped them.
2 A. Just like he helped me, he took them in a
3 boat across Drina River to Serbia, to Yugoslavia, in
4 order to help them go abroad.
5 Q. As far as your sister and her husband are
6 concerned, did he give them any assistance to leave the
7 country?
8 A. Exactly in the same way he helped them seven
9 months later, helped them get across and be on their
10 way.
11 Q. Did you return to the former Yugoslavia at
12 some stage?
13 A. I did.
14 Q. And when you returned, did you meet Goran
15 Jelisic upon your return?
16 A. Yes, I did, because he came to pick me up in
17 Loncari in a vehicle, and he took me to Bijeljina.
18 Q. Concerning the attempts by Serb refugees to
19 evict Muslims from their homes, are you aware of any
20 other Muslims to whom he has given help to avoid being
21 evicted from their homes?
22 A. Yes. In my street, he helped at least seven
23 or eight families, and he helped everybody he could
24 help throughout the town.
25 Q. And the people that you have just described,
1 were those his friends or were they just people who got
2 in touch with him or who were enabled to be put in
3 touch with him?
4 A. Those were not his friends, they were just
5 people of Muslim background, and he did not permit
6 something like this to happen with respect to them.
7 MR. GREAVES: Thank you. Would you be so
8 kind as to wait there, please, Witness DE.
9 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Tochilovsky
10 for the Prosecutor, please proceed.
11 Cross-examined by Mr. Tochilovsky:
12 Q. That influx of refugees in 1992, what month
13 was it?
14 A. I apologise. I didn't understand the
15 question.
16 Q. What month was it when refugees who came to
17 Bijeljina tried to move you out of your house?
18 A. It was in 1992. Two or three months after
19 the war broke out in the federation, the refugees
20 started coming in.
21 Q. Those refugees, they were from Bosnia or from
22 Croatia?
23 A. The refugees were from Bosnia.
24 Q. You're saying that Goran Jelisic was friendly
25 with Muslims, with Croats, in Bijeljina. Before war
1 started in Bosnia, in the former Yugoslavia, isn't it
2 true that all these ethnic groups, Muslims, Croats,
3 Serbs, lived together peacefully?
4 A. They lived together peacefully.
5 Q. So Goran Jelisic was no exception in this
6 term?
7 A. He was no exception.
8 Q. He did not like Muslims more than anyone else
9 in Bijeljina?
10 A. As far as I know, he never said to me he
11 hated Muslims or Croats. He was always a decent
12 person.
13 Q. You said that you had been friends with Goran
14 Jelisic since 1986; is that correct?
15 A. We started a very good friendship in 1986.
16 Q. And you know that he was convicted in 1991 to
17 three years' imprisonment?
18 A. I don't know about that.
19 Q. And you were the best of friends?
20 A. We were real friends, real good friends.
21 Q. And he never told you that he was convicted?
22 A. We never discussed it. We were just going
23 out as friends, going to cafes.
24 Q. In [indiscernible] 1990, early 1991, he was
25 always in Bijeljina; he never was absent for a long
1 time?
2 A. I wasn't in Bijeljina the whole time, I was
3 also working, and Goran and I would meet almost every
4 day or every other day.
5 Q. So in the winter from November 1990 and
6 February 1991, it was a regular winter and you met him
7 also every other day?
8 A. I wasn't seeing a lot of him at the time,
9 because I was in Sarajevo then.
10 Q. How often did you see him at that time?
11 A. A couple of times, because I had some
12 business away.
13 Q. Do you know that he was in prison at that
14 time in Tuzla, from November 13, 1990, until February
15 22nd, 1991?
16 A. I don't know.
17 Q. How could you meet him in Bijeljina if he was
18 in prison in Tuzla?
19 A. I said that we met a couple of times. Maybe
20 he had weekends off. I can't tell you exactly what the
21 date was when I saw him.
22 Q. Do you mean weekends from the prison or what
23 kind of weekends?
24 A. Well, if his behaviour was good, perhaps they
25 would let him come out of prison on Friday, Saturday
1 and Sunday.
2 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: I have no further questions
3 to this witness, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Greaves.
5 MR. GREAVES: I have no re-examination.
6 Thank you very much.
7 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 Judge Riad. Judge Rodrigues.
9 Questioned by the Court:
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness DE,
11 I think that I understood that you met Jelisic for the
12 first time in 1985. Is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And after
15 1986, you began to have a friendship?
16 A. Yes. Our intensive friendship started in
17 1986.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Why do you
19 make the distinction between those two dates?
20 A. I didn't understand your question.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm saying
22 that because there are some people who become friends
23 right away. You met Mr. Jelisic in 1985, but you say
24 that you began a friendship only in 1986. Why is that?
25 A. In '85 -- it was the end of '85, beginning of
1 '86, and it takes longer than a day or two to
2 establish a friendship. So this is how it started the
3 beginning of '86.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, I
5 agree with you.
6 I believe that in 1992, you had to leave your
7 house and become a refugee. What date was that, more
8 or less?
9 A. November. I'm not certain, but around the
10 15th of November.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So that
12 happened after the period between May and September,
13 during which you didn't see Mr. Jelisic?
14 A. I didn't see him.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] During that
16 period between May and September, you did not see Mr.
17 Jelisic?
18 A. I didn't see him.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Therefore
20 you became a refugee after September 1992; is that
21 right?
22 A. I became a refugee in November of '92.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,
24 Witness DE. I have no further questions.
25 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I have no
1 questions either. You have finished your testimony,
2 and the Tribunal thanks you. We're going to have you
3 escorted out of the courtroom.
4 I understand that the other two witnesses
5 have arrived? Yes, that's correct, the two next
6 witnesses are here. I think that we should begin with
7 the next witness immediately. I am not forgetting your
8 question, Mr. Greaves, and we may deal with it tomorrow
9 morning, which will allow Mr. Nice to prepare his
10 response, but I would like to speed up the testimony of
11 the witnesses, who have been here several days
12 already.
13 Thank you very much, Witness DE. Bon voyage
14 back home.
15 THE REGISTRAR: The next witness will be
16 Witness DG.
17 [The witness entered court]
18 THE INTERPRETER: Could we have the judge
19 turn his microphone on, please.
20 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I made a
21 mistake.
22 Do you hear me?
23 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do.
24 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Would you
25 please check your names on the piece of paper and
1 simply nod if in fact those are your names.
2 THE WITNESS: Yes.
3 Q. Very well. Thank you. Please remain
4 standing. Take an oath that's going to be given to you
5 by the usher.
6 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
7 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
8 truth.
9 WITNESS: WITNESS DG
10 [Witness answers through interpreter]
11 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you. You
12 are in The Hague in order to testify -- you may be
13 seated.
14 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
15 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] You are in The
16 Hague to testify for Mr. Jelisic, who has been charged
17 here by the Office of the Prosecutor for crimes against
18 humanity. Mr. Greaves, the Defence counsel for
19 Mr. Jelisic, who is not here because he fell ill,
20 Mr. Greaves is going to ask you some questions, and
21 after that you will be asked some questions by the
22 Prosecutor, and possibly by the Judges as well.
23 Mr. Greaves, please proceed.
24 Examined by Mr. Greaves:
25 Q. Witness DG, would you please tell us what
1 your ethnic background is?
2 A. I'm a Muslim.
3 Q. When did you first meet Goran Jelisic?
4 A. I met Goran in 1989.
5 Q. And where was it that you met him?
6 A. I met him at the Semberija factory farm,
7 where I was working.
8 Q. In due course, did you become friendly with
9 him?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And help us about this: The other employees
12 at the agricultural works, were they all of one ethnic
13 group, or were they of a mixed ethnic background?
14 A. They were mixed.
15 Q. And how did Goran behave towards those who
16 were not Serbs?
17 A. Well. His conduct was proper, normal.
18 Q. Did you ever see any signs in him of an
19 attitude of extreme nationalist politics or dislike or
20 hatred of other racial groups?
21 A. No.
22 Q. As war began to break out in the territories
23 of the former Yugoslavia, did his attitude change in
24 any way?
25 A. No.
1 Q. I want to ask you now about the outbreak of
2 hostilities in Bijeljina in April 1992. Were you in
3 Bijeljina at that time?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Was there an occasion when you sought refuge
6 somewhere in Bijeljina?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Where was it that you sought refuge?
9 A. In the barracks.
10 Q. And why were you going to the barracks?
11 A. Because I had heard that other people were
12 going there to take refuge, so I went along, too, with
13 my mother and my wife and my sister.
14 Q. On your way to the barracks, did you come
15 across some form of obstruction in the street?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. What was the nature of that obstruction?
18 A. Well, there was the police there, Arkan's
19 men.
20 Q. Did they discover that you were a Muslim?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What was the reaction of those who were at
23 that place to the fact that you were a Muslim?
24 A. Well, when they saw we were Muslims, they
25 threatened us, said all kinds of things, and even
1 threatened to kill us.
2 Q. How long did you remain at this obstruction?
3 A. About an hour.
4 Q. Whilst you were there, did you see Goran
5 Jelisic?
6 A. No.
7 Q. How was it that you were able to leave the
8 barricade?
9 A. After about an hour, Goran came by, and he
10 noticed me, and he came up to me and asked me.
11 Q. What did he ask you?
12 A. He asked me what the problem was, and I told
13 him that they were threatening to kill us, and then he
14 reacted. He went to them, and after that, they let us
15 go.
16 Q. Where did you go after leaving the barricade?
17 A. We went to Goran's house.
18 Q. When you got to Goran's house, were there any
19 other people there?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Who was there? Were his parents there?
22 A. His father, Aco, was there.
23 Q. And without telling us any names, were there
24 people who were not members of his family there?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Were they people who were Muslim, or Serb, or
2 Croat?
3 A. [No interpretation]
4 Q. What were they doing at Goran's home?
5 A. Muslims.
6 They had also gone there.
7 Q. For what purpose had they gone there?
8 A. Because of the war and all that, because they
9 were frightened, and they believed him.
10 Q. How long did you remain at Goran's house?
11 A. They stayed two days; I stayed three.
12 Q. And did you then go home, or where did you go
13 to?
14 A. I went home.
15 Q. And why did you then feel able to go home in
16 safety?
17 A. Because I believed him. I knew him.
18 Q. Did he say anything to you about what had
19 been taking place in Bijeljina?
20 A. No. He just said that it was a madhouse, but
21 that it would all pass.
22 Q. Subsequently, did you spend a period away
23 from Bijeljina?
24 A. Yes. I was taken prisoner.
25 Q. Did you return to Bijeljina in January 1993?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. When you returned, did you learn anything
3 from your wife -- and don't tell us what her name is --
4 did you learn anything from your wife about Goran
5 Jelisic and what he had done in your absence?
6 A. She told me that he came by several times and
7 helped her by bringing her food and giving her some
8 money.
9 Q. Did you learn from any other Muslims anything
10 about Goran Jelisic visiting them? Again, don't tell
11 us any names.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. As a result of what you had found out, did
14 you say anything to Goran about what he had done?
15 A. What do you mean?
16 Q. Having heard that Goran Jelisic had given
17 some assistance to your family, did you speak to him
18 about that assistance? Did you say anything to him
19 about it?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What did you say to him?
22 A. I thanked him.
23 Q. I think you have a son, and again, don't tell
24 us his name, but is that right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Did your son have some medical problems at
2 around this time?
3 A. Yes, he had to have a spleen operation.
4 Q. As a result of that, did you make efforts to
5 leave the former Yugoslavia?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Were you able to leave the former Yugoslavia,
8 or were you prevented?
9 A. I was prevented.
10 Q. Did you have to return to Bijeljina?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. In relation to the illness of your son, did
13 you receive any assistance from Goran Jelisic in
14 relation to that illness?
15 A. He helped me, because he took my child to the
16 doctor.
17 Q. And did he pay for any of the medical
18 treatment that your son received?
19 A. Well, yes, he saw to all the costs, whatever
20 they were.
21 Q. Had you heard at any stage any rumours,
22 gossip, about events that had taken place in Brcko
23 concerning Goran Jelisic?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. As a result of what you had heard, did you
1 ask him anything about those matters?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What did you ask him?
4 A. I asked him whether it was true.
5 Q. What did he say?
6 A. Yes, he acknowledged that it was true.
7 Q. Did he give to you any explanation as to why
8 he had behaved in that way?
9 A. Well, he said he was forced to, that he had
10 to do that, that he was threatened that he would be
11 killed.
12 Q. Did he identify anybody who had been involved
13 in threatening him in any way?
14 A. He mentioned names, but I didn't remember
15 them.
16 Q. Did he say anything about his feelings
17 towards what he had done?
18 A. Well, I noticed by his demeanour that it
19 wasn't easy for him to say it and to talk about it.
20 This could be felt.
21 Q. Apart from yourself, were there any other
22 people who had worked with you at the agricultural
23 works to whom Goran Jelisic, within your knowledge,
24 gave assistance?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And were they all Muslims?
2 A. Yes, most of them.
3 Q. Yes. Would you wait there, please,
4 Witness DG.
5 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Proceed,
6 Mr. Nice.
7 Cross-examined by Mr. Nice:
8 Q. You asked him whether the rumours were true.
9 What were the rumours?
10 A. Well, about killings.
11 Q. There are killings and there are different
12 types of killings. What killings were the subject of
13 rumours?
14 A. Murders.
15 Q. Did the rumours specify how the murders were
16 committed? Help us.
17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter would like
18 to ask the witness to speak up, please.
19 MR. NICE:
20 Q. Did the rumours specify how the murders were
21 committed?
22 A. No, they didn't, just that there were
23 killings.
24 Q. You're telling the Chamber, are you, there
25 was no -- no rumours had escaped from Brcko about how
1 people were being taken out and shot at random; nothing
2 like that?
3 A. No, nothing like that. At least I didn't
4 hear it.
5 Q. And so how was Jelisic's name linked with
6 these nonspecific rumours, please?
7 A. I don't know.
8 Q. You heard the rumours, you're telling us
9 about the rumours. Please, what were the rumours?
10 What did they amount to, so far as Jelisic was
11 concerned?
12 A. Well, they just talked about killings.
13 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Try to
14 concentrate on the question. The question was asked,
15 and it's specific. Try to answer it. Mr. Jelisic is
16 your friend, you knew him, you were in his house.
17 You're under oath. Try to answer the questions
18 specifically and precisely, please.
19 Please proceed.
20 MR. NICE:
21 Q. Think back. Is there any detail of these
22 rumours that you can now remember, please, Witness DG?
23 A. No, I don't know anything else. I just heard
24 about the killings.
25 Q. For example, did the rumours include the fact
1 that Jelisic was going by the name of "the Serbian
2 Adolf"?
3 A. No.
4 Q. You've never heard the nickname "Adolf" used
5 in relation to Jelisic?
6 A. No.
7 Q. And all he told you, unless I've
8 misunderstood you, all he told you was that he had to
9 do these killings because he had been threatened that
10 he would be killed; is that right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And you're sure about that, that he was
13 threatened that he would be killed?
14 A. Well, I believe that that's how it was.
15 Q. That's what he told you, that he was
16 threatened?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. By whom?
19 A. People from SDS, leadership, police. That's
20 what he told me.
21 Q. So there was a clear and comprehensive
22 account of his being threatened with death if he didn't
23 murder other people; is that your account?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You see, Jelisic has been interviewed
1 extensively by investigators, and he's made it quite
2 plain to those investigators that there were no threats
3 made to him at all.
4 A. I don't know what he told them. I know what
5 he said to me.
6 Q. Of course, you would accept the best person
7 to tell us whether there were threats or not is
8 Jelisic, isn't it?
9 A. What Jelisic told me was that there were
10 threats. Now, as to what he admitted here, I really
11 don't know anything about that.
12 MR. NICE: Can we go into private session
13 just very briefly?
14 [Private session]
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 [Open session]
10 MR. NICE:
11 Q. You say that Jelisic was threatened by
12 leadership of the SDS. Are you aware that he had been
13 a member of the SDS himself?
14 A. Not SDS. Police and leadership of SDS.
15 Q. Your wife was visited by Jelisic when you
16 were in prison. Over what period of time did he visit
17 your wife?
18 A. Four or five times, he came to visit her.
19 But at what period of time exactly, I don't know.
20 Q. What was his particular interest in your
21 family that he wanted to help your family, please,
22 Witness DG?
23 A. Since we were good friends, that was probably
24 the reason.
25 Q. And what time in '93 was this?
1 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, the interpreter
2 didn't understand what the witness said. Could he
3 repeat the answer?
4 MR. NICE:
5 Q. What time in '93 was this?
6 A. When I came out of imprisonment?
7 Q. Yes.
8 A. [No audible response]
9 Q. Yes. When did you come out of prison?
10 A. January 13, 1993.
11 Q. So by that time Jelisic already knew he was a
12 wanted man, didn't he?
13 A. I don't know if he knew.
14 Q. You were in prison as part of the war or for
15 other reasons?
16 A. Prisoner of war.
17 Q. Thank you. We've probably got your date of
18 birth. Can you just confirm it? What is your date of
19 birth?
20 A. (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 MR. NICE: Yes, certainly.
13 Q. Witness DG, are you fit and healthy today or
14 is there anything troubling you?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Have you yourself ever been in trouble with
17 the police for any matter?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did you say "No" or "Yes"?
20 A. "No."
21 MR. NICE: Very well. Thank you.
22 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Greaves, do
23 you wish to add anything?
24 MR. GREAVES: I have no questions in
25 re-examination. Thank you, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Let me turn to
2 my colleagues. Judge Riad. Judge Rodrigues doesn't
3 have any questions; nor do I.
4 Witness DG, I thank you for having come to
5 The Hague. We have now concluded your testimony. You
6 will be escorted out of the courtroom.
7 The Judges will withdraw, and we will resume
8 through videolink conference tomorrow morning at
9 10.00.
10 At 10.00, I want to deal with the question
11 that Mr. Greaves raised with Mr. Nice, but at 10.00
12 tomorrow morning.
13 MR. NICE: I'm at the Court's disposal now or
14 tomorrow. I know the Court was going to make an order
15 about tomorrow's --
16 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I'm thinking
17 about the interpreters. I think that the interpreters
18 are tired. They've worked a great deal; they've worked
19 overtime today even. I want to thank them.
20 So I think that we will wait until tomorrow
21 morning, until 10.00. Thank you.
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
23 5.45 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,
24 the 11th day of November, 1999, at
25 10.00 a.m.