1 Thursday, 31 July 2008
2 [Initial Appearance]
3 [Open session]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 4.05 p.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon.
7 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honour. This is case number
9 IT-95-5/18, the Prosecutor versus Radovan Karadzic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Karadzic. You are
11 Mr. Radovan Karadzic?
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I am.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I'm Judge Alfons Orie, and I will be presiding over
14 your Initial Appearance in this Tribunal today. I first of all want to
15 make certain that you're able to follow the proceedings in your own
16 language. Can you hear me in a language you understand?
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.
18 JUDGE ORIE: If at any time you are not receiving interpretation
19 or if it is difficult for you to hear the interpretation, please inform
20 me immediately so that we can redress that. Later in the proceedings, I
21 will inform you about the allegations against you, Mr. Karadzic, and so
22 it is important now that I inform you that you have a fundamental right
23 before this Tribunal to remain silent in these proceedings. And if you
24 choose to remain silent, it will not be held against you.
25 Is that understood?
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Then let me now first have the appearances.
3 Prosecution first.
4 MR. BRAMMERTZ: Good afternoon, Your Honour. On behalf of the
5 Prosecutor, Serge Brammertz; I'm with my senior trial attorney,
6 Alan Tieger; and Iain Reid, case manager.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Brammertz.
8 Mr. Karadzic, I see that you are alone -- at least I do not see
9 counsel assisting or representing you at this moment. Is it your choice
10 not to be represented by counsel at this Initial Appearance?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have an invisible advisor, but
12 I've decided to represent myself.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, during this Initial Appearance. Yes.
14 You were informed that apart from your invisible counsel that
15 duty counsel can be assigned if you need one. You were informed about
16 that, right?
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, but I waived that right.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's clear. Thank you.
19 Mr. Karadzic, this brings us to the point of the indictment
20 against you, and I think it's appropriate that I give a brief procedural
21 history first. You were included in an initial indictment with case
22 number IT-95-5, which was filed by the Office of the Prosecution on the
23 24th of July, 1995, and confirmed on the 25th of July, 1995. A
24 subsequent indictment with case number IT-95-18 was filed on the 14th of
25 November, 1995, and confirmed on the 16th of November, 1995.
1 On the 11th of July, 1996, a review of the indictment under Rule
2 61 of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence took place. Subsequently, the
3 Prosecutor submitted an amended indictment on the 24th of May, 2000,
4 under the case number IT-95-5/18, which consolidated the initial and
5 subsequent indictments, reducing the charges to the most serious counts.
6 This amended indictment was confirmed on the 31st of May, 2000, and
7 remained under seal until it was made public on the 11th of October,
8 2002. It is the current operative indictment in this case against you.
9 As a result of this indictment, you were arrested on Monday, the
10 21st of July, 2008, in Belgrade, Serbia
11 transferred to the seat of this Tribunal on the 30th of July, 2008
12 The indictment states that you were born on the 19th of June,
13 1945, in the municipality of Savnik
14 was then a part of Yugoslavia
15 founding member of the Serbian Democratic Party of Bosnia-Herzegovina,
16 also called SDS, and you held various high offices in the government of
17 the entity known as the Serbian Republic
18 For example, it is alleged that between the 17th of December,
19 1992, and the 19th July, 1996, you were sole president of the
20 Republika Srpska. The Prosecution further alleges that in these
21 positions you had power and control over Bosnian Serb forces, including
22 military, paramilitary, and police units, as well as all SDS and
23 government authorities including Crisis Staffs, War Presidencies, and War
24 Commissions that participated in the crimes alleged in the indictment.
25 The indictment alleges that between the 1st of July, 1991, and
1 the 30th of November, 1995, you, acting individually or in concert with
2 other Bosnian Serb officials, planned, instigated, ordered, committed, or
3 otherwise aided and abetted a course of conduct which included
4 persecution and terror tactics to force non-Serbs out of certain areas in
5 Bosnia and Herzegovina that had been proclaimed part of the Serbian
6 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. These included the municipalities of
7 Bijeljina, Bratunac, Foca, Prijedor, and Zvornik. It is alleged that
8 many of those non-Serbs who would not flee in reaction to these tactics
9 were either forcibly deported or killed.
10 The indictment lists in excess of a dozen instances on which
11 scores of civilians were killed during and after the attacks on the
12 targeted areas. The indictment also lists numerous detention camps where
13 non-Serbs were taken. These included camps in various municipalities
14 such as the Manjaca camp in Banja Luka, the Luka camp in Brcko, the KP
15 Dom in Foca, and the Omarska, Keraterm, and Trnopolje camps in Prijedor.
16 According to the indictment, thousands of non-Serbs were forcibly
17 transferred or deported from the targeted areas and non-Serbs in the
18 targeted areas were denied fundamental rights such as the right to work,
19 freedom of movement, access to judicial process, and equal access to
20 medical care. The indictment further alleges the wanton destruction of
21 non-Serb property, including religious institutions.
22 The indictment goes on to allege that Bosnian Serb forces
23 massacred thousands of civilians in and around the enclave of Srebrenica
24 in July 1995. In particular, the indictment alleges that these forces
25 executed thousands of Bosnian Muslim men at the places where they were
1 detained shortly after they had been captured as well as at other sites
2 to which they had been transported for execution. The indictment further
3 alleges that Bosnian Serb forces engaged in a campaign of terror
4 including shelling and sniping against the civilian population of
6 Bosnian Serb forces surrounding Sarajevo implemented a military strategy
7 that used shelling and sniping to kill, maim, wound, and terrorise the
8 civilian inhabitants of Sarajevo
9 civilians, including children and the elderly, were killed and wounded.
10 Mr. Karadzic, you are charged with one count of genocide under
11 Article 4 of the Statute of the International Tribunal, with one count of
12 complicity in genocide under Article 4 of the Statute, with five counts
13 of crimes against humanity under Article 5 of the Statute, and with four
14 counts of war crimes under Articles 2 and 3 of the Statute.
15 The indictment alleges that these crimes were committed during an
16 armed conflict and that the armed conflict was international in nature,
17 that the acts or omissions charged as crimes against humanity were part
18 of a widespread or systematic attack on the non-Serb civilian population
19 in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and that the acts or omissions charged as
20 genocide were committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part,
21 the Bosnian Muslim and Bosnian Croat ethnic groups.
22 Mr. Karadzic, you are charged with individual criminal
23 responsibility under Article 7(1) of the Statute of the Tribunal for
24 having planned, instigated, ordered, committed, or otherwise aided and
25 abetted in the planning, preparation, or execution of the crimes alleged
1 in the indictment, acting individually or in concert with others between
2 the 1st of July, 1991
3 with superior responsibility pursuant to Article 7(3) of the Statute of
4 the Tribunal. The indictment alleges that because of your position and
5 power and the widespread nature of the events described in the indictment
6 between the 1st of July, 1991, and the 30th of November, 1995, you knew
7 or had reason to know that Bosnian Serb forces under your direction and
8 control were committing these crimes and that you failed to take the
9 necessary and reasonable steps to prevent these crimes or punish those
10 who committed them.
11 In addition, the indictment alleges that between the 1st of
12 December, 1995, and the 19th of July, 1996
13 know that Bosnian Serb forces under your direction and control had
14 committed these crimes but that you failed to punish them.
15 That is a summary of the indictment against you, and it is a
16 summary only. In a few minutes I will ask you if you would like the
17 indictment to be read in its entirety to you.
18 Mr. Karadzic, on the 22nd of July, 2008, the President of this
19 Tribunal assigned this case to Trial Chamber I. On the 30th of July,
20 2008, as Presiding Judge of Trial Chamber I, I designate myself as Judge
21 for this Initial Appearance. The Initial Appearance is governed by Rule
22 62 of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence and involves my informing you
23 of the charges against you and asking for you -- for your entry of a
24 plea. But prior to this, I have a few additional identifying questions
25 for you.
1 Mr. Karadzic, would you please state your full name for the
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Radovan Karadzic.
4 JUDGE ORIE: And, Mr. Karadzic, could you state the date and
5 place of your birth.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 19 June 1945, village Petrinica,
7 near Savnik in Montenegro
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers.
9 Mr. Karadzic, I'm going to ask you now for your most recent
10 address at which you resided prior to your arrival at the seat of the
11 Tribunal. You may inform me in open session, open or public session, but
12 if you prefer to inform me in private session, we'll go into private
13 session. Private session means that only the persons inside this
14 courtroom and the immediate audio/visual and interpreters' booths would
15 hear what you say, thereby excluding the public.
16 Would you like to answer my question about your most recent
17 address in private session or would you prefer to do it in public
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In public session.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Then could you please answer the question at what
21 address you resided before you arrived at this Tribunal?
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My official address is my family
23 house, that is the house of my wife at Pale, Krivaca in Pale, Republika
24 Srpska. But if you're asking me about my unofficial address, the one I
25 had under my other identity, it was in Belgrade, Jurija Gagarina Street
1 number 267.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
3 Mr. Karadzic, I also would have some questions regarding your
4 family and the embassy of the country of which you are a national. First
5 of all, is your family informed about your transfer to and your detention
6 in the United Nations Detention Unit at this Tribunal in The Hague
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Of course we do not go into the details of your
9 family members. Is there anyone you would like the Registry, in addition
10 to those who are informed already, to be notified by the Registry about
11 your presence in The Hague
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't believe there is anyone who
13 doesn't know that I'm in the Detention Unit.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Nevertheless, I have to put the next question
15 to you as well, whether the embassy of the country of which you are a
16 national is informed about your detention in The Hague. This may look
17 like formalities, but we have to go through them.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I consider myself to be a national
19 of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Republika Srpska, Montenegro
20 have met the ambassador of Montenegro
21 ambassador of Serbia
22 JUDGE ORIE: Now you said that you have met the ambassador of
24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Bosnia and
1 JUDGE ORIE: There was a slight mistake in interpretation. That
2 doesn't happen that often, but it now and then happens.
3 I do understand that you have spoken to -- let me see -- no one
4 from Montenegro
5 representatives of Bosnia and Herzegovina and Serbia
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I've talked to the representative
8 of Serbia
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but at least that includes that he's aware of
11 your present situation. Would you like the -- of course, I cannot at
12 this moment say anything about whether you are a Montenegrin national,
13 yes or no. But if there would be any wish that the authorities would be
14 informed by the Registry, please let me know so that we can take care of
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, if they don't know I'm here
17 somebody should inform them, but for the time being I don't need their
18 diplomatic representative.
19 JUDGE ORIE: That's on the record then.
20 Mr. Karadzic, one of my obligations as a Judge for this Initial
21 Appearance is to satisfy myself that your rights are respected. Articles
22 20 and 21 of the Statute of the Tribunal address the commencement and
23 conduct of trial proceedings and the rights of an accused.
24 I will ask the registrar to read to you the full text of these
25 two articles.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Article 20: Commencement and conduct of trial
3 "The Trial Chamber shall ensure that a trial is fair and
4 expeditious and that the proceedings are conducted in accordance with the
5 Rules of Procedure and Evidence with full respect for the rights of the
6 accused and due regard for the protection of victims and witnesses. A
7 person against whom an indictment has been confirmed shall, pursuant to
8 an order or an arrest warrant of the International Tribunal, be taken
9 into custody immediately informed of the charges against him, and
10 transferred to the International Tribunal.
11 "The Trial Chamber shall read the indictment, satisfy itself that
12 the rights of the accused are respected, confirm that the accused
13 understands the indictment, and instruct the accused to enter a plea.
14 The Trial Chamber shall then set the date for trial. The hearings shall
15 be public unless the Trial Chamber decides to close the proceedings in
16 accordance with its Rules of Procedure and Evidence."
17 Article 21: Rights of the Accused.
18 "1. All persons shall be equal before the International
20 "2. In the determination of charges against him, the accused
21 shall be entitled to a fair and public hearing, subject to Article 22 of
22 the Statute.
23 "3. The accused shall be presumed innocent until proved guilty
24 according to the provisions of the present Statute.
25 "4. In the determination of any charge against the accused
1 pursuant to the present Statute, the accused shall be entitled to the
2 following minimum guarantees, in full equality:
3 "(a) to be informed promptly and in detail in a language which he
4 understands of the nature and cause of the charge against him;
5 "(b) to have adequate time and facilities for the preparation of
6 his defence and to communicate with counsel of his own choosing;
7 "(c) to be tried without undue delay;
8 "(d) to be tried in his presence, and to defend himself in person
9 or through legal assistance of his own choosing; to be informed, if he
10 does not have legal assistance, of his right; and to have legal
11 assistance assigned to him, in any case where the interests of justice so
12 require, and without payment by him in any such case if he does not have
13 sufficient means to pay for it;
14 "(e) to examine, or have examined, the witnesses against him and
15 to obtain the attendance and examination of witnesses on his behalf under
16 the same conditions as witnesses against him;
17 "(f) to have the free assistance of an interpret if he cannot
18 understand or speak the language used in the International Tribunal;
19 "(g) not to be compelled to testify against himself or to confess
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
22 Mr. Karadzic, do you understand the importance of those rights
23 that were just read to you?
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Do you wish me to explain in any further detail
1 these rights before we continue?
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, I don't think so.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll move on.
4 Mr. Karadzic, I earlier have summarized the indictment in your
5 case. Let me first ask you whether you received a copy of the indictment
6 in your own language?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Did you understand its contents?
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm still studying it.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Karadzic, you have the right to have the
11 indictment read out to you in full here in open court. Do you want to
12 exercise this right or do you want to waive this right?
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm not interested in having
14 someone else read the indictment to me. I would rather receive the new
15 indictment that has been announced and sufficient time to study it, and
16 then have my Initial Appearance after that and enter my plea. Even more
17 than that, I wish to inform you of the numerous irregularities having to
18 do with my appearance here --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Karadzic, let's take matters one by one. You
20 are talking about a new indictment which was announced. I don't think
21 that the Chamber has yet received, Mr. Brammertz, a new indictment.
22 From what Mr. Karadzic tells us, can I take it that you're
23 preparing a new amended indictment?
24 MR. BRAMMERTZ: [Microphone not activated]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please switch on your microphone.
1 MR. BRAMMERTZ: Yes, Your Honour, we are indeed -- we indeed
2 intend to amend the indictment.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and I take it that will take place on
4 relatively short notice then?
5 MR. BRAMMERTZ: Yes, indeed, we cannot yet give a date, but it
6 will be as soon as possible.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 Mr. Karadzic, the Chamber was not informed about a new indictment
9 to be prepared, but on the basis of what you told us it's now confirmed
10 by the Prosecution that a new indictment will be submitted to the
11 Chamber. And of course, the Prosecution is not free to amend the
12 indictment, they need the approval of the Chamber to have an indictment
13 amended; and that is a process in which you have an opportunity to
14 express your views on the amendment of the indictment as well, whether it
15 should be approved or not. So we'll come to that at a later stage, and I
16 do understand that you rather focus on what will be the indictment soon
17 as at least as the Prosecution will submit it.
18 Then I go back to the operative indictment at this moment. You
19 said, I'm not interested in having the operative indictment read to me,
20 I'd rather wait for the new one. Pursuant to Rule 62(A)(iii) of the
21 Rules of Procedure and Evidence, you are hereby called upon to enter a
22 plea of guilty or not guilty on each count of the indictment either today
23 or within 30 days of this Initial Appearance.
24 I take it already a bit from your earlier answer that you might
25 be inclined not to enter a plea today, but you have 30 days. If, of
1 course, the indictment will be amended, and if that would take place
2 within 30 days, then we are in a new situation. But if not yet the new
3 amended indictment exists, then you'll be invited to enter a plea on the
4 operative indictment. And if then the indictment will be changed, then
5 first of all you'll be given an opportunity to make submissions on the
6 proposed new indictment. And if such a new indictment would be approved
7 by the Chamber and if it contains new charges, then of course you'll get
8 another opportunity to enter a plea on the new indictment to the extent
9 the charges are not the same.
10 Is that clear to you, Mr. Karadzic?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm satisfied with your
12 understanding of my position. It's clear to me.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and then your position, as then I repeat that,
14 you prefer not to enter a plea today and to see what happens in the next
15 30 days. And then you might be either invited to enter a plea on the
16 operative indictment or if there is a new amended indictment already on
17 that new amended indictment.
18 Then we have to schedule anyhow a new hearing within the next 30
19 days. Whether or not the indictment will be amended meanwhile or not,
20 but we'll have a second Initial Appearance then within 30 days. Now, if
21 I count 30 days from now on, I think we end up on a Saturday. We can do
22 two things to schedule the new Initial Appearance, on the Friday, that is
23 the 29th day, or to postpone it until the 1st of September, which would
24 be a little bit more than 30 days.
25 Do you have any problems in having the next Initial Appearance
1 scheduled for the 29th of August?
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If it's not the 28th of August,
3 then I have no objection.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll come to that, Mr. Karadzic.
5 Mr. Karadzic, I mentioned earlier the assignment of this case by
6 the President to Trial Chamber I, and as a Presiding Judge of this
7 Trial Chamber, I have designated myself as Pre-Trial Judge in your case
8 by an order dated the 30th of July, 2008. The Trial Chamber will be
9 composed by myself, Judge Christine Van Den Wyngaert, and Judge Bakone
10 Justice Moloto.
11 We earlier briefly discussed the appearance in which you'll be --
12 of which you should enter a plea, and you said if it's not the 28th, it's
13 fine with me. I hereby schedule a further appearance on Friday, the 29th
14 of August, at a quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon.
15 Mr. Karadzic, by an order issued on the 30th of July, 2008
16 you'll remain in custody at the United Nations Detention Unit pending
17 trial; however, you may file an application for provisional release
18 pursuant to Rule 65 of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence.
19 I earlier mentioned to you in the beginning of these proceedings
20 that you have a fundamental right before the Tribunal to remain silent in
21 these proceedings and that it will not be held against you. I now wish
22 to have Rule 63 of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence read to you, as it
23 concerns the topic of questioning of an accused.
24 Madam Registrar.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Rule 63, Questioning of Accused.
1 "(A) Questioning by the Prosecutor of an accused, including after
2 the Initial Appearance, shall not proceed without the presence of counsel
3 unless the accused has voluntarily and expressly agreed to proceed
4 without counsel present. If the accused subsequently expresses a desire
5 to have counsel, questioning shall thereupon cease, and shall only resume
6 when the accused's counsel is present.
7 "(B) The questioning, including any waiver of the right to
8 counsel, shall be audio-recorded or video-recorded in accordance with the
9 procedure provided for in Rule 43. The Prosecutor shall at the beginning
10 of the questioning caution the accused in accordance with Rule
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
13 I would now like to address the Prosecution. I'd like to remind
14 you that pursuant to Rule 66(A)(i) the Rules of Procedure and Evidence,
15 that within 30 days of the Initial Appearance of the accused that you
16 shall make available to the Defence in a language which the accused
17 understands all the supporting materials which accompanied the indictment
18 when confirmation was sought.
19 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour. The Prosecution of course is
20 aware of its obligations under Rule 66(A)(i) and anticipate the
21 disclosure pursuant to that Rule will be made tomorrow or shortly
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Tieger.
24 Mr. Karadzic, I'd like to remind you that the Defence, pursuant
25 to Rule 72(A) of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence of the Tribunal,
1 that you'll have a 30-day period for filing any preliminary motions once
2 you have received all the supporting material in accordance with Rule 66
3 of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence of the Tribunal.
4 Then, Mr. Brammertz or Mr. Tieger, is there any matter that the
5 Prosecution would like to raise at this stage?
6 MR. TIEGER: I don't believe so, Your Honour. Perhaps by way of
7 clarification, as the Prosecutor indicated, we are reviewing the
8 operative indictment to ensure, among other things, that it reflects the
9 jurisprudence since the time of the current indictment, since the time it
10 was drafted and filed. We will endeavour, as the Prosecutor indicated,
11 to move forward as quickly as possible. I anticipate that certainly by
12 the date of the next hearing, if -- we'll be able to provide the Court
13 with a concrete anticipated date for the filing of any amended
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MR. TIEGER: In the meantime, the provisions of this indictment,
17 as the Court indicated in noting that a -- that an amended indictment may
18 not reflect new charges, is of great utility in identifying the
19 anticipated charges against the accused.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll see how to proceed, Mr. Karadzic,
21 Mr. Tieger. At this moment we're working on the basis of the operative
22 indictment. If a new indictment will be proposed by the Prosecution or
23 if amendments will be proposed by the Prosecution, then we'll first
24 follow the proper procedure to see whether there will be an amended
25 indictment or whether it stays as it is now.
1 Mr. Karadzic --
2 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: -- is there any -- yes, Mr. Tieger --
4 MR. TIEGER: I'm sorry, Your Honour.
5 I was wondering if the Court might consider issuing a standard
6 disclosure order in relation to the materials that will be disclosed.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and disclosure will take place tomorrow or the
8 day after tomorrow, that's what you said?
9 MR. TIEGER: That's our expectation.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll take care that if such an order will be
11 issued that it will be there in time. So if we would decide to give such
12 an order, it would be -- most likely be filed tomorrow.
13 MR. TIEGER: That's correct --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Or you would like it orally done at this moment?
15 MR. TIEGER: As the Court wishes, Your Honour, that's fine.
16 JUDGE ORIE: I think it's -- let me just confer one second.
17 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
18 MR. TIEGER: And --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'll not give an oral order at this moment, but
20 we'll take care that it's -- that it will be filed in time, if there is
22 MR. TIEGER: And I didn't know if the Court wished to defer or
23 address at this time any issues related to self representation, including
24 the risks of self representation in complex cases and other matters
25 related to self representation.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Self representation is an issue which might need a
2 lot of attention in the near future. As far as I understand, no notice
3 has yet been given by Mr. Karadzic to the Registrar that he wants to
4 defend himself in the whole of the proceedings. Of course, if he would
5 file such a notice then we'll pay proper attention to what it means, what
6 it takes to represent yourself, Mr. Karadzic.
7 I could give already a few key words for that, and -- but we are
8 not there yet because until now you said you did not want to be assisted
9 or represented by counsel during this Initial Appearance. Let me just
10 find the key words.
11 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
12 JUDGE ORIE: If we are talking about self representation and
13 still there has not been filed any notice at this moment, but the right
14 to self representation is a qualified right but not an absolute right.
15 That right may be restricted under certain circumstances.
16 If an accused would elect to represent himself, then he also
17 should accept responsibility for disadvantages which result from self
18 representation in the absence of qualified counsel. An accused who
19 represents himself is not given special treatment.
20 Further, there is no provision for legal aid to be given to a
21 self-represented accused. Some funding may be allowed for assistance by
22 legal associates who fulfil the necessary requirements under the Rules of
23 Procedure and Evidence, but the right to privileged access to such legal
24 associates cannot be guaranteed. These and other related matters such as
25 communication and translation facilitates for self representation should
1 be further discussed by the Registrar.
2 Rule 45(F) requires someone who elects to represent himself to
3 notify the Registrar in writing as soon as possible. Perhaps this is all
4 premature, Mr. Karadzic. We only established that you are not assisted
5 by counsel or represented by counsel during this Initial Appearance.
6 We'll see what the future brings.
7 Mr. Karadzic, is there anything you would like to raise which
8 would be appropriate to be raised in this Initial Appearance, and that is
9 not the substance of the case, not preliminary defences yet. We'll find
10 time to spend time on whatever you'll submit in the near future. Is
11 there anything you would like to raise at this moment?
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. First of all, I wish to say
13 that I thought it was understood that I intend to represent myself, not
14 only during my Initial Appearance but throughout the trial. Regardless
15 of what I think about this institution, with all due respect to you
16 personally, I will defend myself before this institution as I would
17 defend myself before any natural catastrophe, to which I also deny the
18 right to attack me. I wish to draw attention to the fact that you have
19 been misinformed about the date of my arrest, and also to inform you of
20 the numerous irregularities concerning my relation to this institution
21 and my appearance here. This does not refer to the merits of the case,
22 but exclusively to procedural irregularities in my arrival here, by your
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Karadzic, most of what you just told me -- first
25 of all, that you wish to represent yourself, I already informed you about
1 the requirement under Rule 45(F). So if you want to represent yourself
2 after due consideration whether that would be the best solution, then you
3 have to -- as being self represented, you have to notify the Registrar in
4 accordance with Rule 45(F).
5 Now, as far as irregularities are concerned, the legal meaning of
6 pointing at irregularities could be many-fold. It could be that you
7 challenge the rightfulness of your detention here, that you challenge the
8 exercise of our jurisdiction in this court, it could mean a lot of
9 things. And even if it does not go to the substance of the case, even
10 formal matters which arise from the kind of issues you raised, of course
11 they'll -- can be dealt with, for example, in the preliminary motions
12 which I mentioned earlier.
13 So if you want these matters to be given proper attention, you
14 should include them in submissions to be made to the Chamber; and then
15 depending on what your submissions are aiming for, we would have -- in a
16 public hearing we should deal with these matters. If you file
17 submissions, these will be public documents. So if there were any
18 irregularities of whatever kind, then you are invited to include them in
19 any submissions, either in preliminary motions or other motions, so that
20 the Chamber can read them and that we will consider them, if need be,
21 after having heard the Prosecution and yourself, whether or not in
22 writing or in a public hearing.
23 Is that clear to you?
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, but this is not about
25 challenging the Tribunal or except in a certain segment the proceedings
1 of the OTP; rather, it has to do with the way I have been brought here.
2 If you will allow me to explain it, then it will become quite clear what
3 my attitude toward this institution has been from the moment the
4 indictment was filed against me to this day. I will be very brief. I
5 have only four pages to read out, but I think it would be fair to allow
6 me to point out all the things that have happened concerning my being
7 brought here.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I do not mind if you would briefly mention the
9 issues, but I would prefer, since we are here in Initial Appearance and
10 not in an ordinary session with the Chamber - I'm here alone, not with my
11 colleagues - that you would make submissions in writing on the matters.
12 But I have no problem if, for example, in two minutes you would briefly
13 tell us what you want to submit to the Chamber. But I then certainly not
14 invite you to read a four-page document, but just to -- just briefly
15 indicate what the issues are you want to raise, and I would limit you to
16 briefly mention them in two minutes.
17 Please proceed.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It will be very difficult to do it
19 in two minutes, but I'll try. I'll skip over all the introductory part,
20 and I will say that in 1996 my plenipotentiary representatives, statesmen
21 and ministers, were presented with an offer on behalf of
22 Mr. Richard Holbrooke on behalf of the United States of America,
23 according to which I had to withdraw from public life, I had to make
24 certain gestures, and in return, the USA would fulfil their commitments.
25 This was on behalf of the United States of America. Mr. Holbrooke didn't
1 say that on his own behalf because when I mentioned to him my meetings
2 with President Carter, he told me that he represented President Carter,
3 but he was at that moment working for President Clinton. My commitment
4 was to withdraw and not endanger in any way the implementation of the
5 Dayton Agreement to withdraw even from literary life and any form of
6 public life --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Karadzic, apparently you want to bring to the
8 attention of this Chamber that some agreements apparently between persons
9 attached to states were made. Of course the Chamber is not aware of any
10 such agreements. If you want to raise this issue, then of course it
11 would be important for us to then have the full facts and evidence on
12 those facts so that we can consider the matter. And also it would be
13 important then to explain to the Chamber what consequences this should
14 have in your view for the work of this Tribunal.
15 We're looking forward to receiving such submissions and then
16 we'll see in which context they might best be understood as a challenge
17 to the exercise of the jurisdiction or what other context would be
19 Is there another matter you would like to raise?
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that this is very
21 important for my fate and for my legal position, because here I'm not
22 calling into question the court. I want to show why I'm appearing before
23 this court only now rather than in 1996, 1997, or 1998, when I had the
24 intention of appearing here but at that time I was in danger of being
25 liquidated because I had made a deal that although Mr. Holbrooke tried to
1 honour, Mr. William Stabner [phoen] testified that attempts were made to
2 persuade the chief Prosecutor to withdraw the indictment, but
3 Richard Goldstone threatened to resign if that was done. So I -- there
4 was an intention to liquidate me.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Karadzic, you've started by saying: "I believe
6 that this is very important ..."
7 I'm not denying at this moment that this may be a very important
8 issue for you, although it is not a matter to be raised during the
9 Initial Appearance. I do understand that you consider these backgrounds
10 to be explanatory for your appearance here only today. You'll get ample
11 opportunity to explain this to the Chamber.
12 Is there any other matter you would like to raise?
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In that case, if I am restricted in
14 this way, I wish to say that in Belgrade
15 again. For three days I was kidnapped by civilians whose identity I
16 ignored. I was kept in a place that I also ignored. My rights were not
17 told me. I had no right for a telephone -- to a telephone call or even a
18 text message to my friends, lest they search for me in hospitals and
19 morgues. And only after three days I was turned over to the special
20 court, after which all the proceedings that followed were regular.
21 Similarly, there had been many irregularities even before that
22 but one of the latest ones is the issue of the latest statements of the
23 chief Prosecutor, wherein he promised great speed and that worries me.
24 Does the Prosecutor have a privileged position before the Trial Chamber
25 or maybe he had made a deal behind the back of the Defence with the
1 Trial Chamber --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.
3 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour. The Court provided Mr. Karadzic
4 with an opportunity to foreshadow the motions and invited him to make if
5 he saw fit. If he chooses to represent himself, he has to comply with
6 the rules and the procedures of this institution. The Court has advised
7 him that this is not the moment to argue those motions. The Court has
8 indicated it does not wish to prevent him from making motions
9 appropriately and pursuant to the proper procedures and when the right
10 opportunity presents itself, but as the Court indicated this is not the
11 time and place.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Karadzic, I do understand that you want to raise
13 irregularities during your arrest in Belgrade, and if you make
14 submissions in that respect, the Chamber then of course can consider
15 whether this should have any consequences for the proceedings before this
16 Tribunal. But again, Mr. Tieger is right, and I think I explained it to
17 you earlier, that these matters are best dealt with in motions and not
18 during an Initial Appearance which is primarily aiming at informing you
19 about your rights and about informing the Chamber on the pleas you want
20 to enter. We have, of course, delayed that now with 30 days.
21 Is there any other matter you would like to raise?
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I must say that this is a matter of
23 life and death. If Mr. Holbrooke still wants my death and regrets that
24 there is no death sentence here, I wonder if his arm is long enough to
25 reach me here. That's one thing. And the second thing is whether am
1 I --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Karadzic, you either fully do not understand or
3 you ignore my earlier instructions, that is, that you should raise these
4 matters before the Chamber at an appropriate moment and the appropriate
5 moment is not now. This again does not deny the importance of the
6 matters you would like to raise, but this is not a setting in which we
7 can deal with the matters you apparently want to raise.
8 Is there any other matter, Mr. Karadzic?
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, in that case, I will hand
10 over a submission right now, the paper with the text that I wanted to
11 present. I have two concerns, I have a concern for my life and this
12 concern about the promised speed, speed matters in a showdown between
13 gun-slingers; but it's out of place in a court. I wanted to have equity
14 of arms with the Prosecution, and I don't want to be put in a position
15 where a regular and fair trial is impossible. I hope the Registry can
16 accept this document on four pages, and this is my filing.
17 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber -- before making filings, Mr. Karadzic,
18 we'll follow the procedures. It's -- in this court you do not just hand
19 over a piece of paper. We will consider -- I will consider with my
20 colleagues whether or not the matters you would like to raise, whether we
21 can accept them in this way. We'll let you know about that, so please
22 keep a copy for yourself and hand it over to us if we feel that this is a
23 procedural way in which we can accept submissions by you.
24 Mr. Karadzic, from your earlier words I noted that you have some
25 concerns about your safety and security. Safety and security of an
1 accused in the Detention Unit is primarily the responsibility and the
2 competence of the Registry. This is not to say that the Chamber cannot
3 have concerns about it, but safety and security concerns should be
4 addressed primarily to the Registrar. And almost, if not all of the
5 decisions, taken by the Registrar in this respect are -- can be reviewed
6 by the President of this Tribunal, not by the Trial Chamber, but by the
8 So therefore, if safety and security concerns are bothering you
9 at this moment, please address the Registrar, inform the Registrar about
10 your concerns, and perhaps start discussing with them what to undertake
11 in order to meet these concerns.
12 Is there any other matter, Mr. Karadzic?
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to know whom I should
14 approach with my concerns and anxieties regarding the irregularities in
15 this process.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if it is about irregularities which may have a
17 bearing on the proceedings, such as illegal arrest or these kind of
18 things, then you can make submissions to the Chamber. If you want to
19 address matters of personal safety and security in the Detention Unit,
20 then you should address the Registrar. And in the days to come, I take
21 it that there will be frequent contact anyhow with the representatives of
22 the Registry and then you can discuss with them what would be the most
23 effective way of bringing your concerns to their attention. They'll come
24 and see you.
25 Any other matter, Mr. Karadzic?
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not for now.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Karadzic, then finally I'd like to ask you
3 whether you have been treated well in -- since you arrived in The Hague
4 if there's any problem with the way in which you are treated?
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no complaints against the
6 treatment by official persons or the premises where I'm kept. I've been
7 in worse places, so everything is all right.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer.
9 Finally, I would like to ask you whether you have any health
10 concerns at this moment, and again you're free to ask me to address these
11 matters in private session if you would wish to do so. Do you have any
12 health concerns; and if so, would you like to deal with them in private
13 session or in public session?
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My health is perfect and there is
15 no need for a private session.
16 JUDGE ORIE: That's good to hear.
17 Mr. Karadzic, this concludes this Initial Appearance.
18 I hereby adjourn the proceedings until Friday, the 29th of
19 August, 2008, quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon in this same courtroom.
20 --- Whereupon the Initial Appearance
21 adjourned at 5.12 p.m.