1 Friday, 20 February 2009
2 [Status Conference]
3 [Open session]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.14 p.m.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honour. This is the case
7 number IT-95-5/18-PT, The Prosecutor versus Radovan Karadzic.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
9 Mr. Karadzic, I take it, as always, that you appear and represent
11 THE ACCUSED: Yes, you are right, sir.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Can I take my headphones off?
13 THE ACCUSED: No, sir, I'm looking for Serbian channel.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Number 4. No sorry, no sorry. My mistake. Is it
15 5? 6.
16 I'll start again, then. You represent yourself as before.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, and that will be the case
18 until the end.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
20 This date for this Status Conference was chosen in the hope that
21 it would be shortly after the question of the amendment to the indictment
22 had been resolved, and it looked as though that was how things had worked
23 out, until earlier this week, when the Prosecution made a motion for
24 re-consideration of the Chamber's decision to amend the First Amended
25 Indictment, and that's the subject that I want to deal with, first of
1 all, in the course of this Status Conference. And I'm going to ask the
2 Prosecution for certain information.
3 But, first of all, I'll take from the Prosecution the
4 appearances. Mr. Tieger.
5 MR. TIEGER: Good afternoon, Your Honour. Alan Tieger, Hildegard
6 Uertz-Retzlaff, and case manager Iain Reid for the Prosecution.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Now, could you explain what has
8 happened in relation to the decision to amend the indictment and the
9 motion that you made subsequently.
10 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour.
11 The motion, as I believe the Court is aware, focuses on one
12 aspect of the schedule, that is, annex B, and scheduled incident 18.2.
13 This incident was specified in the schedule as our motion indicated that
14 there was material to support the inclusion of that incident and, as a
15 result of an administrative error, in instead of the supporting material
16 references to the proper page numbers, the supporting material for
17 scheduled incident 18.1 was included twice. In short, the same -- the
18 wrong references to the same witness in the same proceeding. And, of
19 course, I hope the motion indicates that the Prosecution acknowledges and
20 regrets the error.
21 Our motion also indicates, however, that it is in the interest of
22 justice for the Court to receive the actual supporting materials and to
23 order the restoration of scheduled incident 18.2 of annex (B) to the
24 indictment. We've indicated, as I believe, that this is an important
25 incident. There are significant number of victims. There is the
1 approximate presence of the accused. The Rules themselves, that is
2 47(f), provide for the subsequent provision of omitted materials that
3 support either specific charges or scheduled incidents. When that can be
4 easily remedied, it will not cause any prejudicial delay in the
5 proceedings because of the stage of the proceedings and because the Rule
6 72 --
7 JUDGE BONOMY: These are -- and if I can just stop you there. It
8 may or may not be appropriate to go into these additional issues. I just
9 wanted clarification of what the problem was so that everyone is clear
10 here what we are dealing with.
11 Now, Mr. Tieger, the decision that the Trial Chamber made found
12 that there was no supporting material for three incidents. Your motion
13 is related to one particular incident. It's quite clear to me what that
14 relates to. Are you saying that have you no intention of raising either
15 of the other two?
16 MR. TIEGER: We didn't raise it at the time, Your Honour, because
17 of our concern over this incident. In particular, that is not to say
18 that -- I mean, I think the nature of the problem with respect to the
19 other two incidents -- well, specifically with respect to the incident,
20 the number of which I don't recall, but in Krupa, could be just as easily
21 remedied as the Court is aware. It's a discrepancy between the date and
22 supporting materials.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Is this the Petar Kocic elementary school.
24 MR. TIEGER: That's correct.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: There is a mistake a -- inconsistency between the
1 materials supporting the charge and the terms of the charge. The
2 supporting material refers to August, and the charge refers to May.
3 MR. TIEGER: Yeah. And, Your Honour, that was not intended to be
4 a reference to -- a reference to two incidents, that is, one in the
5 supporting materials and one in the schedule. It was instead a
6 discrepancy between the dates.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah. But it's basic. They either have to meet
8 or one doesn't support the other.
9 MR. TIEGER: That is correct.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Right. But your motion, therefore, is confined to
11 the one that you consider most important?
12 MR. TIEGER: That is correct, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
14 Mr. Karadzic, this, a situation, gives rise to a motion, which
15 the Chamber has to consider. It has no option. The motion is to
16 re-consider the decision to amend the indictment and to allow the
17 Prosecution to add this one further incident, one of the three that we
18 excluded. We were also to stay the effect of our previous decision. We
19 refused to do that so that the indictment was presented as you know on
20 Wednesday. That doesn't, though, prevent the Prosecution from going
21 ahead with this motion. I can't tell them that this is something that's
22 incompetent. It is open to them to make the application, and in the
23 ordinary course there is a period for you to respond.
24 Now in relation to all the other amendments, you responded on
25 points of principle and on points related to the expeditious and fair
1 conduct of the trial. You did not take issue with the detail of the
2 proposed amendment.
3 The -- so what I'd like it know, first of all, is whether have
4 you any particular point that you think you will wish to make about the
5 incident, and including this incident, in the indictment.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] First of all, I would like to point
7 out that even the Prosecutor with the vast resources it has at its
8 disposal, and far greater advantage in that respect with respect to my
9 resources and the instruments and vehicles that can I use, did not
10 succeed to this day to get through everything they wanted to. And over
11 the past two or three days, I have received an enormous amount of papers
12 and documents which I found it hard to leaf through. Some of them are
13 just translations which I just received. And as for the indictment, I
14 still do not know whether it is in force or not and whether I'm going to
15 be asked to plead today or not, according to the indictment.
16 Now the Prosecution is criticizing for me not being precise
17 enough on the 6th of August when I had not a single advisor with respect
18 to the Holbrooke Agreement; although, they know full well and exactly
19 what I had in mind when I referred to that, and now they're asking me to
20 give way to them, to show a little leeway with respect to the mistakes
21 and omissions they made. Of course, that is far from what I intend to
23 As for the indictment itself it will be --
24 JUDGE BONOMY: No, the Prosecution are not asking you for leeway,
25 they're asking the Bench for leeway, and you have the right to take your
1 stand on this. And I just want to be clear, first of all, whether you do
2 take the stand that you wish to resist this change to the indictment
3 because if that is a live issue, then you will not be asked to plead to
4 the indictment today. The Chamber will, first of all, have to decide
5 what to do about this motion.
6 If, on the other hand, you do not consider that you have any
7 other particular points to make, then we can obviously proceed more
8 expeditiously. It's as simple as that. But if you want to respond to
9 this motion to re-consider, and you have points that you want to make in
10 relation to it, then I have to decide what time you ought to have to do
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I thought that I was
13 expected to do something.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: No. I'm just trying to see if there is an issue
15 here that needs to be explored. I mean, for example you're -- in terms
16 of the rules, the normal process is that you would have 14 days in which
17 to respond to this motion for re-consideration, in light of -- following
18 upon the translation of -- of the motion.
19 However, before deciding whether that's the right course to
20 follow, I would like to know, first of all, whether you do wish to oppose
21 it, and, secondly in broad terms, on what ground you wish to oppose it,
22 and then I will consider what period of time is necessary. It may be
23 that 14 days is quite unnecessary in all the circumstances, particularly
24 in view of the line you have taken so far in relation to the indictment,
25 which I understand and fully appreciate and the Trial Chamber
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is too much of a major issue
3 for me to state my views without consulting my legal advisors. And
4 they're only around three days a month to visit me.
5 So before I state my views I have to consult them, and I'm sure
6 that we'll avail ourselves of all the rights to object and to respond to
7 the motion.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, you see, that's very unhelpful because you
9 are counsel in your case, and the Chamber, when it comes into one of
10 these hearings, expects to be assisted by counsel.
11 Now, what you're say is that you're trying to conduct this case
12 but you're incapable of conducting, and that's an unsatisfactory
13 situation for the Court to be in. I expect you when you come here to
14 have a position on the various issues that have to be addressed by the
15 Trial Chamber.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I tried that tell you yesterday and
17 today I received a whole pile of papers that I haven't even managed to
18 leaf through, so even if I to have counsel, during a short period of
19 time, I would not be able to state my views in the matter. And
20 regardless of the fact that I represent myself, I have to consult my
21 advisors. I have to have advisors and consult them. And even if I were
22 a lawyer, I would have to do the same. So that's completely regular.
23 It's within my rights. It's within my rights to respond and within these
24 prescribed deadlines.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: You see, what you may be claiming is a right to
1 pretend to represent yourself, and we want to be sure that that's not
2 what's happening here, that you are actually representing yourself. I
3 have got to be satisfied that you're capable of doing this job, and it's
4 not sounding that way just at this minute. This is a very minor matter
5 in the overall scheme of this case, and it's very surprising that you are
6 incapable of dealing with it.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, then I'll answer you. I am
8 capable of dealing with it, and I'll use all my rights to respond to the
10 Does that sound clearer to you now?
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the response to the question is: Do you
12 seek to answer to this motion to amend the indictment further?
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Karadzic, while this was -- this
15 allegation is one of a grave nature, what we are dealing with here
16 procedurally is fairly minor in the overall context of the process so far
17 and, in particular, in the overall context of the motion to amend the
18 indictment. And it is in my opinion that to allow you until Wednesday of
19 next week to respond to this motion would be perfectly adequate. And,
20 therefore, the order is that the time to respond to the motion will be
21 restricted so that the response will be required on Wednesday of next
22 week, which is the 25th of February.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have to express my
24 dissatisfaction with the fact that this deadline has been shortened to
25 such a major question, not only because I am limited and restricted in
1 all other aspects. I don't have a team set up, my resources are nil, and
2 even if they were fully replenished, I could not respond within the
3 deadline prescribed.
4 And as far as I'm concerned, every question is a serious
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Now it follows from that decision that I will not
7 be requiring you to plead to the indictment which is there, pending
8 re-consideration of the decision to allow the Prosecution to amend the
10 The Further Appearance, at which the plea will be tendered, will
11 be adjourned.
12 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
13 JUDGE BONOMY: I'll indicate to you before we finish this
14 afternoon when the Further Appearance is likely to be. It will be
15 impossible, because of the other commitments of the Tribunal, to state a
16 specific time and date in the course of this hearing. All I can do will
17 be to give you an indication.
18 I want to turn now to the question of disclosure. Now on that
19 subject, Mr. Tieger, who do I address?
20 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, you have compiled a report dated the 13th of
21 February which indicates the numbers of documents disclosed, and part of
22 that disclosure is in terms of Rule 66(A)(ii) which is a rule that deals
23 with statements of witnesses that you intend to lead at the trial. The
24 document also indicates that what's been disclosed are mainly expert
1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's expert reports and
2 experts's testimony, statements, everything related to 23 experts.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: And it's restricted to experts, is it?
4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. And now we are actually
5 proceeding now to disclose materials related to international witnesses,
6 because we have actually a schedule for our disclosure internally, and we
7 start with those witnesses where the amount of disclosure is the most
8 complex. And that's the expert and the international witnesses.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, is 23 experts the sum total of the
10 anticipated experts.
11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: There is it yet another expert we couldn't
12 disclose yet because of clearance for Rule 70.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: So, in the end, the maximum number of experts
14 likely to be called is 24?
15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: 24, or 25, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you consider that the disclosure of these
17 reports has had any impact in triggering the application of Rule 94 bis?
18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We will definitely file motions to this
20 JUDGE BONOMY: So -- is your answer no? You're saying it doesn't
21 have that effect until you take some other action. Is that your
23 The Rule 98 bis says:
24 @the full statement under report of any expert witness shall be
25 disclosed within the time limit described by the Trial Chamber or by the
1 Pre-Trial Judge."
2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, the then -- that disclosure triggers a 30-day
4 period for a response.
5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, is it your submission that the 30 days is
7 running, or do you say that something needs to be done in terms of Rule
8 94 to start it running.
9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: According to the Rule, it should actually be
10 left to disclose these -- these materials. However, we have not, in the
11 disclosure letter to the accused, we have not mentioned this rule, so I
12 would think it perhaps a bit unfair now to just say, It's running and you
13 don't know about it.
14 So I think we -- we actually had intended to file a motions to
15 this effect, but we can also, of course, write specific letters to the
17 JUDGE BONOMY: So you'll agree with me that something else,
18 whatever it is, should be done to trigger the effect of Rule 94 bis?
19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Okay. Has the disclosure of these various reports
21 been in both English and B/C/S?
22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Not completely, Your Honour. We are still
23 working on certain transcripts. We have disclosed for -- we have
24 disclosed some transcripts in B/C/S but not all, because we don't have
25 them available at the moment. We have a team of 15 people working on the
1 transcribing project, but it's just very time-consuming.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you able to identify a number that have been
3 fully disclosed in both languages?
4 [Prosecution counsel confer]
5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, Mr. Reid is looking for this,
6 and we'll get to the answer soon.
7 But to my knowledge, no. I think there's still -- there are
8 still even for those where we are very much advanced, there is some issue
9 outstanding. For instance, just to give an example, we have disclosed
10 everything for Mr. Theunens, who is a military expert in intend to call,
11 and we still have not completed his testimony transcription in B/C/S for
12 the for the Gotovina case.
13 So, for him, it's one item outstanding. For the others, it's
14 probably even more.
15 [Prosecution counsel confer]
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, in light of the discussion earlier, it's
17 possible - and I'll clarify this before we finish - but it's possible
18 that there be another Status Conference within the next two weeks,
19 roughly two weeks from now, subject to other checks that are being made
20 at the moment.
21 It's clear that the position is not clear enough. It's too
22 confused at the moment in relation to these reports for an order to be
23 made. But you can take it that it will be the aim of the Court to make
24 an order about expert reports the next time there is a Status Conference,
25 so you should bear that in mind in making the arrangements that you are
2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Karadzic, the document which you would get and
4 which I first saw last week, at the end of last week, in fact the
5 beginning of this week, when I saw it, about the number of documents
6 which have been disclosed to you, indicated certain figures about
7 statements of witnesses. It was not clear to me until just now that
8 these are all expert witness statements.
9 It is arguable that the very disclosure of these to you could
10 have had an impact on the time available to you to respond, but the
11 Prosecution position, with which I agree, is that the simple fact of
12 giving you that material does not start any period of time running, and
13 the period for you to react to these, in terms of Rule 94 bis, will not
14 start running until the Court makes an order and no order is going to be
15 made on that today. However, it is possible that an order might be made
16 the next time the Court meets. That can only be decided in the light of
17 the state of documents at that stage, the state of translation, and the
18 extent to which the disclosure has been completed.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I appreciate that. Thank you. But
20 it was only today that I saw this. I have this list of some 105.000
21 pages. Quite a few of these disclosed pages are only referred to in
22 terms of their numbers in the EDS
23 it: First of all, because my Defence team hasn't been completed yet;
24 and, secondly, as I've given up on asking for documents on paper, and
25 since I agreed to receive documents in electronic form, it would be good
1 if I were to receive it on CDs or DVDs. I have filed a motion to that
2 effect, because, really, I have so many obstacles in terms of preparing
3 my Defence, that I needed to do that.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: The document I have, which perhaps has been
5 updated since as a result of inquiry, indicates a larger number of pages
6 than you have just given. I think where I see the figure 105.000 comes
7 from, but I think the Prosecution would claim to have disclosed something
8 in the order of 220.000 pages to you.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I never received that paper.
10 However, what I referred to was what was disclosed until the 10th of
11 December. 105.000 pages. Actually, I am now going to find the name of
12 your associate - I'm sure that you know who I'm talking about - this lady
13 who -- Yvonne Featherstone. She intervened yesterday. She intervened
14 yesterday and that's how I received all this information today.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that was on my instructions, Mr. Karadzic,
16 and she is one of the staff who sit in front of me here.
17 Now, there are two matters you've raised, one of which is quite
18 easy to deal with; the other I need to ask some questions of the
20 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Featherstone has just clarified for me that
22 the document I'm referring to is one that you have not, in fact, seen.
23 So I'll make sure it's sent to you, but it's a summary giving the total
24 of documents and pages disclosed to you.
25 But let me ask the position about documents simply being
1 disclosed by number.
2 Is this the problem that's already been raised in one of the
4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. It's in the motion.
5 Mr. Karadzic has asked for everything disclosed on DVDs or CDs, and we,
6 actually, at the moment are only disclosing Rule 66(A) material and 65
7 ter material on DVD
8 the EDS
9 our response why we do it this way, and why it would actually be much
10 more practical for everyone.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: The Chamber has your motion on this point in
12 writing, Mr. Karadzic, and we now have a response from the Prosecution,
13 and we will deal with this quickly, and you will get a response to it
14 that explains the position. Now, you'll have an opportunity, as I say,
15 fairly soon in court again to raise issues that may emerge as the result
16 of our decisions on your written motions. I'm much keener to deal with
17 things orally in exchange with you than in writing, which, first of all,
18 causes delay, but, secondly, often causes misunderstanding, and sometimes
19 things are much better explained in court.
20 So we'll leave it until the decision is made on the points you've
21 raised with us, and give you an opportunity to comment when we're in
22 court the next time.
23 I want to go back briefly to the question of the amendment to the
24 indictment, and I want to mention something to you. Your principle
25 motion responding to the motion to amend the indictment was to ask the
1 Trial Chamber to deal with the motion in a way that would identify a part
2 of the case against you to go to trial so that everybody could
3 concentrate on that one part.
4 As you know, the Trial Chamber did not follow that course, and it
5 didn't follow the course because it took the view that it's not open,
6 it's not competent at this stage to do that. But we have mentioned to
7 you the possibility of raising this issue in a preliminary motion once
8 the indictment is finally resolved and you tender your plea again, you
9 may seek to address the provisions of Rule 72(A)(iii), which provides
10 that in a preliminary motion you can seek the severance of counts joined
11 in one indictment.
12 I'm expressing no view on the outcome of any such application.
13 I'm expressing no view on the powers of the Tribunal under that Rule.
14 I'm simply drawing your attention to wording which could be seen to give
15 you an argument for separating part of the indictment for trial. And if
16 you decide to follow that route when you present any preliminary motion,
17 I want to make it clear to you now that the Trial Chamber will be greatly
18 assisted by you identifying clearly how the indictment might be separated
19 with a view to doing that. In other words, how counts of the indictment
20 or charges in the indictment might be separated from others with a view
21 to a trial proceeding but not on the whole indictment.
22 Now, please do not misunderstand this as an indication that
23 that's going to happen. But since you have raised it and made it such an
24 important point of your submission, it's only right that the Trial
25 Chamber should make it clear to you that there does appear at this stage
1 to be a way in which you can at least address the issue and invite the
2 Trial Chamber to consider your position when it was not possible prior to
3 finalising the indictment.
4 I think this next -- oh, sorry.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We have -- or, rather, I have
6 raised question of challenging jurisdiction and amending the indictment,
7 and the preliminary motions, and there are going to be at least ten of
8 them referring to different grounds.
9 If we look at it this way, we see that this is going to be a huge
10 trial that goes beyond the resources that the OTP has, let alone I. Now
11 that I've been here for almost six months, I've been acting in good faith
12 in order to create a process, a trial, that is going to be important for
13 us, the peoples back there, and also for international justice and
14 international law. I believe that many other countries would seeing how
15 the president of a state can be tried. Indeed, as you have seen, there
16 have been no delays on my account. I have been doing everything with
17 full propriety. However, as I look at the indictment I see that this is
18 going to be a gigantic trial. And -- anyway, this is going to be
19 mentioned in all my motions, so you will see what I think.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: The point doesn't get any better for unnecessary
21 repetition, but thank you again for clarifying your position on this.
22 I want now to raise a procedure of which I think will assist
23 everyone involved in this case, and that is amplifying the Prosecution
24 approach to the trial at the earliest possible opportunity.
25 Once the indictment is resolved and we are into the serious stage
1 of exchanging -- or intimating lists of witnesses and exhibits which are
2 actually going to be used in the case, Rule 65 ter (E) will come into
3 play, and the Prosecution will have to provide a pre-trial brief. That
4 Rule, however, envisages the provision of -- the possible provision of
5 a -- an earlier pre-trial brief, and in this case, it's my opinion that
6 the progress of the trial will be greatly assisted by further
7 amplification of the Prosecution case.
8 So I have in mind, Mr. Tieger, to require the Prosecution to
9 provide an interim pre-trial brief, which will -- apart from assisting
10 the accused by identifying the line that's going to be followed at the
11 trial, will assist the Chamber in marshalling the material, the large
12 amount of material, which we anticipate we will have to come to terms
13 with over the next few weeks.
14 Now, can I invite your comments on the sort of time-scale that
15 might be necessary to produce that?
16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, as you can imagine, we were --
17 we are working on the pre-trial brief, on the witness list, and of the
18 exhibits -- on the exhibits list, and we have actually internal deadlines
19 for doing this, and we had actually anticipated to file our pre-trial
20 brief and the other 65 ter submissions in April, and that's what we could
21 manage. And I personally, at the moment, cannot see how an interim
22 pre-trial brief could expedite this. But, of course, I hadn't thought of
23 this before, so I'm -- I haven't thought that through. But that was
24 actually our internal schedule, to have everything filed in April.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Now one of the problems for the Trial Chamber in
1 working out the likely time-scale has been the requirement that no order
2 about a pre-trial brief in its final form can be made until the
3 preliminary motions have been disposed of. And, of course, we're not
4 even at the stage where the time for a preliminary motion is running, and
5 that's largely because of the way the case has been prosecuted so far, as
6 you know.
7 So it's important that the ultimate provision of this should not
8 be delayed to the point where it disables the Trial Chamber from taking
9 steps which it's in a position to take, to familiarise itself with the
10 case as fully as possible.
11 Now, it seems to me that over the next six weeks or so, the
12 person who is going to be most occupied with the preparation of material
13 for the Court's attention will be the accused, who will then be faced
14 with the issue of preliminary motions and any other issues that he
15 intended to raise, and that it's not unreasonable for the Court to ask
16 the Prosecution to use that time to give it a pre-trial brief on an
17 interim basis.
18 Now, the time-scale I have in mind is not much different from
19 yours. I think yours is unrealistic in the context of the Rules as the
20 final date for the pre-trial brief. On the other hand, I don't think
21 it's far off the mark in identifying when it would be reasonable to ask
22 you to outline your case in more detail.
23 So what I shall do is require you to file an interim pre-trial
24 brief on or before the 30th of March. This shouldn't be regarded as
25 something that just has to be done in some form or other to satisfy the
1 strict terms of an order of the Court. In view of the importance of this
2 case, the Trial Chamber would expect that by that date you would be in a
3 position to outline, in terms fairly close to the final terms, the case
4 that you intend to present.
5 Mr. Karadzic seems to have lost track of a time a little. In his
6 comments earlier, he has been here a bit longer than six months already,
7 and that we must never lose sight of.
8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, just one question for
10 Does that mean an interim pre-trial brief including a witness
11 list and exhibits list, or just the pre-trial brief?
12 JUDGE BONOMY: It is only the pre-trial brief, but my
13 understanding that your pre-trial brief would normally be heavily
14 referenced and footnoted to the witnesses, but a final -- so if it's
15 convenient to you, it would obviously be helpful to the Trial Chamber to
16 have the lists as well. But the lists are not what I'm after. I'm after
17 the outline of the case with reference to the supporting material, and
18 it's that document that will assist us. But if you wish to provide the
19 additional assistance, that's fine. I think it's -- it could be said to
20 become duplication, otherwise, unnecessary, and I don't insist on that,
21 whereas the work of the brief is something that I don't expect to be
22 duplication. I expect that once it's done it will be a question of
23 refinement for the final version.
24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour, we will do that.
25 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
1 [Prosecution counsel confer]
2 JUDGE BONOMY: One other issue, then, that I have to raise with
3 you, Mr. Karadzic, but it's really for information. You have a motion
4 outstanding for the interview of a potential witness on the question of
5 immunity, and you seek the interview -- you seek authority for you,
6 yourself, to carry out that interview.
7 Do you have any information about the availability of the witness
8 should a decision be made to allow that to happen? In other words, can
9 the interview be arranged at short notice, or are you not in a position
10 to tell me?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I am in a position to clarify
13 First of all, I'd like to thank you for bringing it up, but I'd
14 like to ask you that I not be provided with material that have nothing to
15 do with me. I have material that relates to Kosovo. I had to have them
16 translated because they might be relevant but they do not have relevance.
17 Now, I'm trying to resolve all these problems without the Trial
18 Chamber, but in future I'll have to send in my motions to the Trial
19 Chamber in order to be able to defend myself from useless material.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Let me -- you're obviously on to a different
21 subject. Can we come back to Kosovo. Can you deal with the witness,
22 first of all, please.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. There are two problems in
24 that regard. The basic problem is this: The authorities in Serbia have
25 proclaimed statements by seven witnesses which they took with respect to
1 the circumstances. They proclaimed it a state secret. So now it's a
2 problem for me to call those witnesses, to interview them, because most
3 probably they don't dare give a statement because Serbia has proclaimed
4 the whole matter to be a state secret, and I am convinced that those
5 statements are highly important otherwise they wouldn't have been
6 proclaimed a state secret. And I will insist that Serbia lifts this
7 state secrecy, as it has done pursuant to requests from the Prosecution,
8 to do that from the statements, too.
9 The second question is this: For me to be allowed to have the
10 witness come in. He was the foreign minister, Republika Srpska. He's
11 not anybody, and he knows firsthand what was agreed during the
12 negotiations. So I would like to interview him. All the more so, as I
13 don't have the entire --
14 JUDGE BONOMY: You're not really addressing my question. My
15 question is: Do you know whether there are any particular problems about
16 his attendance at the Tribunal.
17 Now, are you saying, first of all, that his prior statement has
18 been declared a state secret?
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have been informed via Serbia
20 that all seven witness who were interviewed, that their statements have
21 been proclaimed state secrets, and I insist that Serbia lift that ban for
23 JUDGE BONOMY: And are you saying that they would have some
24 control over his attendance here or, alternatively, control over what he
25 could say to you?
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] They cannot control what he might
2 say, but I'm wondering whether I'm not going to subject him to any
3 dangers in disclosing state secrets. So I don't -- though, I don't think
4 so because he was foreign minister of Republika Srpska, not Serbia.
5 And the second problem is for him to be issued a visa and for his
6 expenses to be paid and travel expenses, as well.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that's a decision, as you know, that we
8 indicated we would postpone until the outcome of the appeal which you
9 have taken against the previous disclosure decision made by this Trial
10 Chamber. I will convey that additional information to the other Judges
11 on the Trial Chamber, and if we have a different view or require more
12 information from you, we will contact you for that. If you hear nothing
13 from us, it will be because we still intend to postpone the decision
14 until the Appeals Chamber has ruled on your appeal.
15 Mr. Tieger, are there any issues that you wish to raise with the
17 MR. TIEGER: Yeah, just one point of clarification, perhaps, Your
18 Honour. The Court inquired about 94 bis and whether or not the
19 disclosure of the expert, previous experts' statements, was intended to
20 trigger or was regarded as triggering 94 bis. I think it's important to
21 clarify that many of those statements basically fell under 66(A)(ii) as
22 prior statements, some of which are not that pertinent to these
23 proceedings, and many of which were not intended to be the statement --
24 the operative statements which will be relied upon in this proceeding.
25 Numbers of experts are indeed updating their reports with any recently
1 received materials, and I think that's what Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff was
2 alluding to when she suggested that we would be filing something
3 contemporaneously both for notice purposes and for clarification
5 But, mainly, I didn't want the Court to misunderstand on the
6 basis of what we had suggested that all of those reports were intended to
7 be operative in this particular case.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: I think it important, though, Mr. Tieger, that
9 expert reports are finalised at a fairly early stage. The Rules are very
10 flexible with expert reports compared with the provisions about other
11 material, and the Trial Chamber had a discussion about this and take the
12 view that we should try to have these in the final form as soon as
13 possible. I think I have formed him -- a wrong impression from the
14 earlier discussion that matters were further advanced than have you
15 indicated, and obviously we would not wish to make an order that would
16 result in a failure or cause you to be unable to organise the material in
17 its most up to date and articulate and comprehensive form. So we would
18 encourage that that these things should be updated and compiled into the
19 most easily read form of all. But I think you should give a degree of
20 priority to this, because it is something that we can get on with while
21 we're prevented from making progress in other fields.
22 So I hope that when we meet again there will be a number of these
23 that with actually be disclosed in terms of Rule 94 bis. It doesn't
24 necessarily need to be them all, but it makes for progress if we get some
25 of them dealt with.
1 MR. TIEGER: Understood, Your Honour. Thank you.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Karadzic, is there any other matter that you
3 wish to raise?
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I'd like, first of all, to
5 express my desire that the services of this Tribunal are encouraged to
6 help me so that my Defence team can be completed as soon as possible,
7 because I cannot put up an effective Defence - not because I'm
8 representing myself - but because my Defence team hasn't been completed
9 yet and because it is treated as some auxiliary staff. And when they
10 need to be nominated and appointed, they are treated in one way, and look
11 at conflict of interests and things like that. And when they have to pay
12 them, then they pay them as some auxiliary staff. So I don't think that
13 even a smaller trial than this could be prepared under those conditions.
14 And, secondly, I'd like very kindly to request that you
15 re-consider your decision with respect to the deadline for the motions
16 and submissions. I'm handicapped sufficiently as to time and resources
17 as it is, so I would be very happy if you were to extend the deadlines.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the only motion that has been subject of a
19 deadline today is the motion by the Prosecution for re-consideration of
20 the decision on the indictment. And bearing in mind the way you
21 approached the -- approached the issue previously and bearing in mind
22 what you said today, then it seems to me that I have allowed you adequate
23 time to make your submission. If you have a particular submission to
24 make that requires additional time, then, no doubt, you will put that to
25 the Tribunal in writing, but have you not done that in the course of this
1 hearing today.
2 As far as your legal team is concerned, that is a matter between
3 you and the Registry of the Tribunal. You've already raised with the
4 Trial Chamber a fair trial issue, and when there are fair trial issues
5 then it is for the Trial Chamber to intervene.
6 Now, we refuse to intervene because we took the view that the
7 Registry had acted properly in dealing with it. I'm -- I hear what you
8 say about the legal team, but I also know from the terms of the documents
9 that are passing through my hands that you have a large number of people
10 assisting. I understand that the vast majority of these may be acting
11 pro bono, that's a matter for you and them. But the organisation of your
12 team is not a matter that I can attend to here or have any interest in
13 dealing with, or any right -- by interest, I mean any right to deal with.
14 It's a matter for the Registrar unless an issue arises that affects the
15 fairness of the trial.
16 So I can only encourage you to take urgent steps that you see
17 outstanding in that regard express my dismay that it's taking you so long
18 to deal with it. You know what the facilities are and what your
19 entitlement is. It's a management exercise on your part to get them
20 organised into suitable sections to deal with the various parts of your
21 case that you feel they can assist you with.
22 The Trial Chamber is entirety satisfied that for a
23 self-represented accused you have adequate support, and we're also
24 equally satisfied that if you were to apply for full legal aid for the
25 conduct of the trial, that you would be much better supported than you
1 are to deal with the complex issues that will face you in the trial, and
2 you would also be able to play a part in the conduct of your own case as
3 long as that met with the approval of the legal advisors that would then
4 instruct it.
5 So all of that convinces the Trial Chamber that there are no
6 issues affecting the fairness of your trial that currently arise in
7 relation to how your team is composed.
8 Now, I've had a look at the dates that could be available for the
9 next Status Conference. The position is not at all clear because the
10 Tribunal is working at full capacity, and courtroom space is at a
11 premium. I will need to consider further whether adjustments can be made
12 and the timetable affecting other cases to enable us to sit again fairly
13 soon, and a Scheduling Order giving a date will be issued hopefully by
15 Meanwhile, this Status Conference is adjourned.
16 --- Whereupon the Status Conference adjourned at
17 3.21 p.m.