1 Tuesday, 13 April 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.29 p.m.
5 JUDGE KWON: Good afternoon, everyone.
6 If the Court Officer could call the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, and good afternoon, Your Honours.
8 This is case number IT-95-5/18-T, the Prosecutor versus Radovan Karadzic.
9 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
10 Can I have the appearances.
11 Prosecution, please.
12 MR. TIEGER: Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours.
13 Alan Tieger, Ann Sutherland, and Iain Reid appear for the Prosecution.
14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Tieger.
15 Mr. Karadzic, could you kindly introduce your team members.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Excellencies.
17 Next to me here is my legal advisor, Mr. Marko Sladojevic. I hope that
18 Mr. Robinson later this month will join me. We had expected to be given
19 more time and he had other matters to attend to, but he's there for legal
20 matters anyway.
21 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Karadzic.
22 Mr. Harvey.
23 MR. HARVEY: Good afternoon, Your Honours. I am assisted today
24 by Mr. Eric Tully, my case manager. Thank you.
25 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Harvey.
1 I'd like to note that we will not take the appearances each day
2 of the trial, but if a new member is present in the courtroom in each
3 team I would expect the parties to introduce that person to the Chamber.
4 Before we hear the evidence of the first witness from the
5 Prosecution, there are several matters to deal with. First, I would like
6 to note that we are scheduled to sit three days per week for the rest of
7 this month, April. This week we are sitting on Tuesday, Wednesday, and
8 Thursday on an exceptional basis, and that next week we will sit
9 Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. And in the week after we will sit Monday,
10 Tuesday, and Wednesday.
11 Since we will have two breaks each day we sit, the hearing will
12 consist of three sessions, with the first two sessions being of
13 80 minutes each and the last one of 75 minutes. When we sit in the
14 morning shift, as we experienced already, the first break will be of 20
15 minutes and the second break will be for 30 minutes. When we sit in the
16 afternoon shift, like today, we will simply have two 25-minute breaks.
17 Therefore, today we will have the first break at 15.35 and the second
18 break at 17.20.
19 Secondly, I would like to remind the parties that the
20 Court Officer is recording the time used during the trial and allocating
21 that time to the parties or to the Chamber. Each month the Chamber or
22 the Registry will produce a time report which the parties will have the
23 opportunity to comment on before it is finalised and filed.
24 Next, we will now give an oral decision regarding the role of
25 Mr. Harvey. The Trial Chamber recalls its decision of
1 5th of November, 2009, issued shortly after the commencement of the trial
2 and in light of Mr. Karadzic's refusal to attend the proceedings. The
3 Chamber found that Mr. Karadzic had substantially and persistently
4 obstructed the proper and expeditious conduct of the trial by refusing to
5 attend the proceedings until such time as he considered himself to be
6 ready. Despite this Chamber's decision upheld by the Appeals Chamber,
7 that he had had sufficient time to prepare, and the warnings that were
8 given to him by the Chamber.
9 Despite these findings, the Chamber did not, at the time,
10 restrict Mr. Karadzic's right to represent himself, but rather instructed
11 the Tribunal's Registrar to appoint a counsel to prepare for trial should
12 the Chamber later determine that it is in the interests of justice for
13 this counsel to represent him. The Registrar then appointed Mr. Harvey,
14 who assembled his team and began vigorously to familiarise himself with
15 the case and prepare to represent Mr. Karadzic's interest, should that
16 turn out to be necessary.
17 In the period since 5th of November, the Trial Chamber has
18 continued to monitor the manner in which Mr. Karadzic has engaged in his
19 defence and further prepared himself for the trial. The Chamber notes in
20 particular that Mr. Karadzic gave his Defence opening statement in early
21 March and that he has continued to file motions and to respond to motions
22 filed by the Prosecution, largely in a responsible manner.
23 The Chamber does not, therefore, consider it necessary at the
24 present time to assign Mr. Harvey to represent his interest at trial.
25 Rather, it will designate Mr. Harvey as stand-by counsel, who will attend
1 the proceedings, address the Chamber if requested to do so by us, and
2 continue to prepare himself so that should it become necessary, he may
3 step in at any stage and take over the conduct of the accused's defence.
4 The Chamber will shortly issue a written order setting out these
5 functions following the hearing today.
6 Mr. Harvey, I wonder whether you're satisfied with these
7 instructions and clear as to your role in these proceedings for the time
9 MR. HARVEY: Noting for the time being, certainly, Mr. President,
10 that is most helpful and my team now knows a little bit about what the
11 future holds in store. We've been on tender hooks until this moment.
12 Thank you.
13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Harvey.
14 Next I will deal with the remainder of the Prosecution motion for
15 an instruction regarding the admissibility of submissions and statements
16 of the accused filed on 23rd of February, 2010, which is still
17 outstanding in part.
18 On 1st and 2nd March, Mr. Karadzic made an opening statement in
19 his capacity as his own Defence counsel pursuant to Rule 84 of the Rules.
20 At that time I noted that he would have at a later stage the opportunity
21 to make an unsworn statement pursuant to Rule 84 bis of the Rules, in
22 which case the provisions of that rule would apply.
23 Mr. Karadzic, for the sake of clarity, I would like to remind you
24 that you have the right to remain silent during the whole trial. You are
25 not obliged to give evidence, to question witnesses, or to make
1 submissions. You may, however, give a Rule 84 bis statement and/or give
2 evidence on your own behalf at the appropriate time, in which case you
3 will be subject to cross-examination. So at this moment I'd like to
4 inquire of you whether you intend to make a statement under Rule 84 bis
5 before we hear from the first witness?
6 [Defence counsel confer]
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] At this point in time I do not
8 intend to make any such statement or to testify in my defence, and anyway
9 the Defence is far away from me or my Defence case is far away. So I'm
10 first going to deal with the Prosecution case. But at any rate, I don't
11 think I shall be making such a statement.
12 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Karadzic.
13 In that case, the Chamber considers that it has dealt with the
14 issues raised in the Prosecution's motion for an instruction regarding
15 the admissibility of submissions and statements of the accused of 23rd of
16 February for the time being and this motion is, therefore, no longer
18 Next item on my agenda is the procedure for the hearing of
19 evidence pursuant to Rule 92 ter. I would like to remind the parties
20 about the procedure for bringing witnesses pursuant to Rule 92 ter of the
21 Rules, set out in the Chamber's order on the procedure for conduct of
22 trial. In particular, I note that a short summary of witness's written
23 evidence should be read out in the courtroom for the purpose of the
24 public record before questions are put to the witnesses. Having analysed
25 the Rule 92 ter notifications provided so far by the Prosecution, the
1 Chamber is aware that Prosecution will seek to tender associate exhibits
2 through the Rule 92 ter witnesses which are discussed in the witness's
3 written statement or transcript but may not be mentioned during the
4 witness's oral examination. We are concerned that Rule 92 ter not be
5 used as a means of introducing large numbers of documents that are not
6 put to the witnesses in court. At the same time, we recognise that there
7 may be circumstances where it is necessary to have a witness discuss
8 orally some documents discussed in his or her witness statement or prior
9 transcript. Therefore, we will have to be -- this will have to be dealt
10 with on a case-by-case basis. However, the Chamber does expect that
11 Prosecution will make it clear in the courtroom which items it is
12 tendering through each Rule 92 ter witness, either by indicating the
13 relevant Rule 65 ter numbers or by referring to the Rule 92 ter
14 notifications so that the accused has the opportunity to object to the
15 admission, following which the Chamber will decide the matter. And where
16 appropriate, the Registry will be invited to give the admitted documents
17 an exhibit number.
18 Next I would like to deal with the time for cross-examination of
20 Mr. Karadzic, in accordance with the Chamber's order last week,
21 you submitted your time estimate for cross-examination of the first
22 witnesses. For the first witness, Mr. Ahmet Zulic, the Prosecution
23 states it will use one hour for direct examination, and you seek four
24 hours for cross-examination. For the second witness, Sulejman Crncalo,
25 forgive my pronunciation, the Prosecution states it will use 30 minutes
1 for direct examination and you seek five hours for cross-examination.
2 For the third one KDZ-64, the Prosecution states it will use one hour for
3 direct examination and you seek four hours for cross-examination. And
4 for the fourth, Mr. -- Ambassador Okun, the Prosecution states it will
5 use three hours and you seek 14. For later witnesses, you seek even
6 greater amounts of time.
7 The Chamber has said that it will not limit -- set a time-limit
8 on cross-examination at the present time, while, of course, the
9 cross-examination will be limited to relevant issues. However, the
10 Chamber expects you to be responsible and realistic as to what is
11 reasonable. I have to say that we do not consider that the estimate you
12 have given are either of these things. You may certainly need equal time
13 to the Prosecution for your cross-examination. Indeed, given that these
14 witnesses give much of their evidence in writing, you may need double
15 what the Prosecution takes for your cross-examination. And also, there
16 may be exceptional cases where you require even longer. However, do not
17 expect to be granted the kind of time you suggest that you need.
18 In this regard, I would like to remind you that the Prosecution
19 bears the burden of proof in these proceedings. Your role is to
20 challenge the Prosecution's case so as to create reasonable doubt in the
21 minds of the Judges. If you do not take on that role responsibly, the
22 Chamber will have to consider what measures to take, such as imposing
23 time restrictions on your cross-examination of each witness.
24 With that, there's one further final administrative matter which
25 is related to the first witness. I note that the Rule 92 ter
1 notification for the first witness, Mr. Zulic, Mr. Tieger, was filed on
2 24th of February as a confidential document due to the protective
3 measures then in place for the witness. The Chamber later on rescinded
4 all of the witness's protective measures in its written decision of
5 26th of February. So in light of this -- in light of these
6 circumstances, and unless either of the parties gives reasons why we
7 should not do so, the Chamber will instruct the Registry to re-classify
8 the Zulic notification of 24th of February as a public document.
9 So unless there's any administrative matter to be raised, I would
10 like to -- yes, Mr. Karadzic.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will certainly be happy to
12 complete, or rather, to use as little time as possible for each witness.
13 However, the fact remains that this court system is quite new to us and
14 we're not used to it. Now, I will be asking the Trial Chamber's advice
15 and guidance in cases where it turns out that the witness is not a
16 credible one, and if such a witness is rejected I don't have to insist
17 further. But if anything remains in the vast number of statements made,
18 statements which are incorrect and not binding in any way, so if I can be
19 of -- if I can be found guilty and judged on the basis of those
20 statements, then I will ask to cross-examine the witness. So everything
21 depends on the witness, whether it is a serious witness and whether what
22 the witness says will be understood by the Trial Chamber as being serious
23 and truthful.
24 Now, if I were to notice, looking at the Trial Chamber, that the
25 witness has not done a good job, then I won't persist. But if we see
1 that there is something that he says that is not truthful, then I will
2 cross-examine. So it all depends -- and I'll ask for the Trial Chamber's
3 guidance whether to continue or whether the witness has been
4 disqualified. So whether there is anything in his statement that has not
5 been challenged --
6 JUDGE KWON: It is for you --
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- and refuted.
8 JUDGE KWON: It is for you to challenge the credibility of each
9 witness, but it is for the Chamber to assess what weight shall be
10 accorded to that later on.
11 Let's bring in the first witness.
12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Good afternoon, Your Honours. The first witness
13 for the Prosecution is a crime base witness from the Sanski Most
14 municipality. The Prosecution calls Ahmet Zulic.
15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Ms. Sutherland.
16 [The witness entered court]
17 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Zulic, if you could take the solemn declaration.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
19 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
20 WITNESS: AHMET ZULIC
21 [Witness answered through interpreter]
22 JUDGE KWON: Please take a seat.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Zulic, before you start giving evidence, I would
25 like to say a few words to you. So, Mr. Zulic, I thank you for coming
1 here today to give evidence in this trial. The Chamber appreciates that
2 this is the third time you have travelled to The Hague to testify in this
3 case, and we hope that you understand the reasons why we were unable to
4 hear your testimony on those previous occasions.
5 We are aware that such repeated journeys here are not easy and
6 that you have had to make personal arrangements to accommodate us. So I
7 wish to express our deep gratitude to you for being willing to come.
8 Ms. Sutherland.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 Examination by Ms. Sutherland:
11 Q. Thank you, can you please state your name.
12 A. My name is Ahmet Zulic.
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Mr. President, with your leave I will proceed
14 with the requirements of Rule 92 ter.
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
16 MS. SUTHERLAND:
17 Q. Mr. Zulic, on the 22nd of February, 2010, you signed an
18 amalgamated statement; is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could Rule 65 ter number 90111 be brought up on
21 the screen.
22 Q. Mr. Zulic, is that your signature at the bottom of the page,
23 page 1?
24 A. Yes, it is.
25 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could we please go to page 37 of the document.
1 Q. Mr. Zulic, you confirm that this statement was read back to you
2 in the Bosnian language; is that correct?
3 A. Yes, it is.
4 Q. Do you confirm that your amalgamated statement accurately
5 reflects your evidence and that you would provide the same answers to
6 questions if you were asked under oath about these topics today?
7 A. Yes.
8 MS. SUTHERLAND: Mr. President, at this time I would seek to have
9 the amalgamated witness statement admitted into evidence. The 65 ter
10 number is 90111.
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
12 Which will be the exhibit number?
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P717.
14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
15 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honours, in relation to the administrative
16 matter you raised earlier, the Prosecution did file a redacted version of
17 this statement uploaded into e-court as 65 ter number 90111A, simply
18 because there's four passages within this amalgamated witness statement
19 which were dealt with in private session in the Krajisnik or Milosevic
20 case or dealt with in open session, but the Trial Chamber then made an
21 order that those passages be redacted.
22 JUDGE KWON: Thank you for the information.
23 MS. SUTHERLAND: Before addressing the associated exhibits to
24 that statement, I need to seek leave of the Court ...
25 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
1 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
2 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
3 JUDGE KWON: I was advised to give a separate number for the --
4 for that revised redacted version. That will be 718, correct?
5 THE REGISTRAR: That's correct, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE KWON: Let's proceed, Ms. Sutherland.
7 MS. SUTHERLAND: I need to seek leave to add a document that's
8 referred to in paragraph 137 of this statement which was inadvertently
9 admitted from the Prosecution's Rule 65 ter list, and I, therefore, make
10 application to amend the Prosecution's Rule 65 ter exhibit list to add 65
11 ter 22038. This is a document which is a list of names of 372 persons
12 which were arrested and detained. It's 12 pages in the B/C/S handwritten
13 and nine pages in English, typed pages. The witness is listed at number
14 266 of the list, and, as noted, the document is referred to in his
15 statement which is Exhibit P717.
16 Your Honours, this document was identified as at the end of
17 October 2009 during a review of an ISU search. It was immediately added
18 to the list of material to be included on the supplementary exhibit list
19 which was filed on the 14th of December, 2009, however, due to an
20 administrative error the document was deleted from the list. The
21 document was disclosed to the accused on the 16th of February, 2010
22 soon as the error was identified. And I would now seek admission of all
23 of the exhibits referred to in the statement and listed in the sheet
24 attached to the amalgamated statement and referred to in the
25 Prosecution's Rule 92 ter notification for this witness which was filed
1 on the 24th of February, 2010
3 JUDGE KWON: But before we go further, as to the -- that list,
4 could you tell us who compiled that list?
5 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honours, this was a list that was found in
6 the -- sorry, in the Sanski Most SJB. It's a handwritten list of names,
7 and the column -- the names are entitled, "Data of Individuals in
8 Custody." They're listed together with their place of birth and their
9 personal identification numbers.
10 We received this document from Judge Adil Draganovic from Sanski
12 JUDGE KWON: So you have no information who wrote or compiled
13 that list?
14 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE KWON: And please go on.
16 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, the list of exhibits -- there's
17 14 -- 15 if you include the one that I have just sought leave for. That
18 is 04797, 04798, 04799, 04800, 04801, 04811, 05702, 13164, 19136, 19148,
19 20277, 20278, 20279, 22038, and 40043.
20 JUDGE KWON: So it is your case that they are all indispensable
21 and inseparable part of the amalgamated statement?
22 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE KWON: Okay. And you are tendering them at this moment?
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, do you have any objections?
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, this is a surprise to me,
2 just as the list I received yesterday was a surprise including 7- or 800
3 names that the witness brought with him. The Defence should really ask
4 for time to make their position clear on this, but, in any case, I
5 believe the Prosecution has had enough time to make all the proposals and
6 motions for admission to avoid such surprises.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber had the opportunity to briefly go
9 through these exhibits, and we -- the Chamber finds they're all relevant
10 and, except the item 22038, are all of probative value. But with regards
11 to the list of persons, the Chamber finds it has of no probative value at
12 all, in that we do not know who compiled the list, who wrote the list.
13 So with the exception of that exhibit, we will admit them all.
14 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
15 JUDGE KWON: Given the quantity of the exhibits, so the Registry
16 will be requested to assign an exhibit number to each document and to
17 file it for the purpose of the publicity in terms of parties and the
19 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
20 JUDGE KWON: Please.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: With Your Honours' leave I will now read a brief
22 summary of the witness's evidence.
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes, thank you.
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Mr. Zulic was born and raised in the village of
25 Pobrijezje in Sanski Most municipality and lived there all his life until
1 1992. After the beginning of the war in Croatia in 1991, he noticed an
2 increase in anti-Muslim propaganda on the radio and television.
3 Check-points manned by the army, the military police and the regular
4 police appeared on the roads. Initially the check-points were used to
5 control people of all nationalities, but from 1992, were used to control
6 non-Serbs only.
7 In April 1992, a Serb War Presidency was established in the
8 municipality, which included the president of the municipality,
9 Nedeljko Rasula. On about 18 April 1992, the Serb and Muslim police
10 forces separated. Around this time, Muslim and Croats were required to
11 return any former JNA uniforms and weapons which they had in their
12 possession. The witness heard on the radio that Serb forces had attacked
13 the Muslim police station which was in the basement of the municipal
14 building in Sanski Most.
15 On the 13th of May, 1992, Mr. Zulic saw Serb families in military
16 trucks and on tractors leaving for the mountains. On the same day, Serb
17 forces in the village of Podlug
18 anti-aircraft cannons to fire on the village of Trnovo
19 Nedeljko Rasula later announced on the radio that all Muslims and
20 Croats were required to hand over their remaining weapons. He said that
21 the Serb army would guarantee peace and security.
22 The witness heard that weapons had been distributed by the army
23 to Bosnian Serb civilians around May 1992. During the second half of
24 May 1992, the freedom of movement of non-Serbs was restricted further by
1 On the 26th of May, 1992, there was a further radio announcement
2 that all Muslims should surrender their weapons. Two to three hours
3 later, two shells were fired on the village of Pobrijezje
4 saw five or six artillery shells fired on the Mahala settlement, a
5 predominantly Muslim part of Sanski Most town.
6 On the following day, 27 May, regular troops and reservists
7 gathered the population of Mahala in the soccer field located in
9 On the 28th of May, 1992, Serb artillery shelled Mahala. Houses
10 in Mahala were set on fire about four or five at a time. Mr. Zulic's
11 bed-ridden father-in-law was burnt to death in his house in Mahala. The
12 villages of Hrustovo and Vrhpolje, predominantly Muslim settlements, were
13 also attacked by Bosnian Serb forces artillery and more than 300
14 civilians were killed.
15 On the 18th of June, 1992, Serb police arrested the witness at
16 his house and detained him in Betonirka, a set of three garages in the
17 cement factory in Sanski Most town, located 100 to 150 metres from the
19 Mr. Zulic was detained at Betonirka until 7 July 1992. During
20 that period, he was detained with about 30 other detainees in one of the
21 small garages. The witness describes the interrogations and beatings he
22 received in Betonirka and the SJB building, which he will also touch upon
23 in his testimony today.
24 On 22nd June 1992
25 location a short distance from Betonirka, where over 20 men were made to
1 dig their own graves. All but three of the men were killed by having
2 their throats cut and/or shot. Nedeljko Rasula was present at the
3 killing site during the killing of the men. The witness survived this
4 incident due to the intervention of Rasula.
5 On the 7th of July, 1992, Mr. Zulic and 63 other detainees were
6 instructed to board a truck on a stiflingly hot day. Before getting on
7 the truck, the detainees were severely beaten. Tarpaulin covered the
8 truck. The journey to Manjaca took several hours. Due to the extreme
9 heat and lack of air, a number of detainees died on the trip to Manjaca.
10 The witness will also testify today about this incident.
11 On arrival at Manjaca camp, the camp commander refused to accept
12 the dead and about six extremely dehydrated detainees who were still
13 showing signs of life. Detainees had to load these persons back on to
14 the truck. Three detainees, in good condition, had to also get on to the
15 truck which returned to Sanski Most.
16 The witness was detained in Manjaca in one of the large cattle
17 sheds for over four months. He describes the beatings he received and
18 witnessed and the detainees he saw who died in the Manjaca camp.
19 From the Manjaca camp, Mr. Zulic was transferred to Karlovac in
21 until his release in November, his weight reduced 90 kilogrammes to
22 55 kilogrammes. As a result of the beatings the witness received, he now
23 suffers permanent disability.
24 In December 1992, before Mr. Zulic's wife could leave the
25 Sanski Most municipality, she had to sign a statement renouncing all of
1 their property and possessions to the Serb authorities. She also had to
2 pay the Serb Bureau for Resettlement in Banja Luka money in order to
3 leave the region.
4 That concludes the brief summary of the witness's evidence. I
5 intend now to question the witness for approximately one hour to
6 highlight various aspects of his evidence.
7 Q. Mr. Zulic, as your statement is now in evidence in this case, I
8 will ask you a limited number of questions in relation to some of the
9 matters raised in your statement.
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: First, I would like you to orient the
11 Trial Chamber as to several locations on two maps. I would ask first
12 that 65 ter 19148 be brought up on the screen. This is a map of the
13 former Yugoslavia
14 showing Bosnia and Herzegovina.
15 Q. Mr. Zulic, where in Bosnia is Sanski Most municipality located,
16 in what area?
17 A. In the north-west of Bosnia, between Prijedor, Bihac, and
18 Banja Luka. If I may, I can show it. I will just have to get nearer.
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: If you could zoom in to the north-west area of
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The lettering is so tiny that I
22 can't make it out. Banja Luka was here a moment ago. Sanski Most, can I
23 show it with my finger or -- it's here.
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: You can use the pen.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is Sanski Most.
1 MS. SUTHERLAND:
2 Q. You have just pointed to south of Prijedor and west of the town
3 of Banja Luka; is that correct?
4 A. Yes. Banja Luka is here, Prijedor is somewhere -- right here.
5 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honours, I seek to tender 65 ter 19148 into
6 evidence, but without the witness's markings.
7 JUDGE KWON: You have already tendered?
8 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, I have, I'm sorry.
9 JUDGE KWON: I'm not sure -- let's go on.
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes.
11 I ask that 65 ter number 19136 be brought up onto the screen.
12 This is a town map of Sanski Most. If you could zoom in to the map.
13 Q. Mr. Zulic, what was the name of your village?
14 A. Pobrijezje.
15 Q. Can you see that on the map?
16 A. I can, I see it. It's already moved. Here.
17 Q. You're pointing to the Pobrijezje we can see to the north-west of
18 the town of Sanski Most; is that right?
19 A. [No interpretation]
20 Q. How far is Pobrijezje from the centre of town of Sanski Most?
21 A. Around 2.000 metres from Sanski Most.
22 Q. In your statement, Exhibit P717, on page 20, you testify about an
23 incident at Kriva Cesta. Can you tell us on this map where Kriva Cesta
24 is located.
25 MS. SUTHERLAND: And if we can zoom out a little bit on the town
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, but we would have to move the
3 map up. It's somewhere here this way.
4 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could we zoom out and move the map up a little.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Up and --
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: Can you zoom out so that the town map is in the
7 centre of the page. Right. Thank you.
8 Q. Mr. Zulic, can you see now where the Kriva Cesta location is?
9 A. It's covered by this picture here.
10 Q. Which picture are you pointing to?
11 A. Number 3. It's around here somewhere. There's a road, here's
12 the road --
13 Q. Okay. You're pointing to the area south-east of the town of
14 Sanski Most and just above the bend in the river of the Sana River; is
15 that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: I don't need the map anymore.
19 Q. I would now like to turn to the surrendering of weapons in the
20 Sanski Most municipality, and for the benefit of the Court and the
21 accused, this is discussed in his statement at paragraphs 22 to 30 and
22 paragraph 45.
23 Mr. Zulic, you mentioned that there were regular announcements
24 made in relation to the surrendering of weapons. How were these
25 announcements made?
1 A. Over the radio. They announced that all weapons should be turned
2 over, surrendered, both illegally owned and legally owned, including
3 hunting rifles and pistols owned by people. And they said specifically
4 it should be brought to the hall of the local commune. And there was
5 Dragan Adzic to receive them. And, of course, he collected and took away
6 with him all that was collected.
7 Q. When did the announcements begin?
8 A. That began after the Serbs took over power at the very beginning,
9 around the 18th of April announcements started, but they got more and
10 more frequent around 13th May. And after that date they were regular.
11 Q. How often were these announcements made?
12 A. Well, perhaps at two- three- four-hour intervals, between other
13 news, depending on how long other programmes took.
14 Q. Who was making these announcements?
15 A. Sometimes it would be a reporter or Dragan or sometimes it would
16 be Nedeljko Rasula or the president of the Crisis Staff. And after that
17 even some Muslims who had been arrested were forced to call upon the
18 citizenry to turn over their weapons under duress, Faik Biscevic was one
19 of them. They would give them these announcements to pronounce more than
20 once but they would change the text. When I was at the Betonirka prison,
21 they would bring a journalist and they would bring a text to us that we
22 had to read. I was -- I was there, I was present when something like
23 that happened. They would just change the text.
24 Q. Mr. Zulic, we will get to Betonirka and discuss that in a few
25 moments, but I now want to turn to the attacks on villages and
1 settlements in the Sanski Most municipality. And for the benefit of the
2 Court and the accused, this is discussed in paragraphs 23 in relation to
3 Trnovo; paragraphs 31 to 35 in relation to Mahala; and paragraph 36 in
4 relation to Hrustovo and Vrhpolje.
5 Mr. Zulic, one of the attacks you describe is the attack on the
6 Mahala settlement. Approximately how many Muslim households were in
8 A. I really don't know, but there were Serbian houses too in Mahala.
9 In any case there were over 500 houses in all.
10 Q. What was the majority of the population there, their ethnicity?
11 A. It was majority Muslim.
12 Q. In your statement, you say that the attack commenced on the
13 28th of May, 1992. Were you able to see this attack?
14 A. From the place where I was born and where I lived, I could see
15 shells flying in and exploding. And, of course, you could see houses
16 burning at night.
17 Q. And who did attack the settlement?
18 A. The occupational Serb army, I mean the JNA, the Yugoslav People's
19 Army, and Serbian paramilitaries of all kinds: There were Seselj's men,
20 Chetniks, there were some sort of White Eagles, there were some that
21 called themselves SOS
22 a few.
23 Q. Was there any resistance to this attack?
24 A. No, no.
25 Q. Do you know of anyone killed during the attack?
1 A. Muslims, yes, they were killed but not during the attack, after
2 the attack. Five or six people were killed in just one house. Don't ask
3 me about the exact number. I know there were killed three women, the
4 daughter of Ivo Uzar, Nafija Nalic, two Vojnikovic brothers were killed
5 in that house as well because they were in the basement. I know that
6 because the mother of the Vojnikovic brothers came, brought a bloodied
7 little chain, and said they were dead. But the perpetrators had already
8 left and came to the exercise ground and announced that everyone must
9 come out.
10 Q. Mr. Zulic, did anyone remain in Mahala?
11 A. Mainly people who were infirm remained in Mahala or people who
12 hadn't heard or who had hidden from the shelling because they were unable
13 to leave. All they had time for was to go to the basement, and those
14 were the ones that were killed when the infantry came in to mop-up, as
15 they called it, including unfortunately my father-in-law.
16 Q. You describe in your statement approximately 1200 refugees from
17 Mahala arriving in your village, mainly women, children, and the elderly.
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: For the benefit of the Court and the accused,
19 this is in paragraphs 37 and 38.
20 Q. What were the ethnicity of these people that came to your
22 A. They were all Muslims and a couple of Croats, 2 or 3 per cent
24 Q. And what had happened to the men of the village or the settlement
25 of Mahala?
1 A. They were locked up in the sports hall in Sanski Most.
2 Q. And how -- how did they come to be locked up in the sports hall?
3 A. Well, as I see it, they first drove them to the stadium. At the
4 stadium, they separated men from the women. They drove the women to
5 Pobrijezje, and they either marched the men to the sports hall or bussed
6 them there. And all the women and children were driven out to
8 Q. When you say "they," who are you referring to?
9 A. Well, the JNA and the Serb army, the Serb troops.
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: I would now like to play an audio tape with a 65
11 ter number 13164 and with an ERN of T000-058-1-A. This is referenced in
12 paragraph 45 of the statement. If we could play from 5.13 to 5.34,
13 please. And this is the first male voice on page 4 of the B/C/S
14 transcript and on page 3 of the English transcript. If that is -- that
15 could be brought up on e-court. For the benefit of the interpreters,
16 this is marked as clip 1 of 65 ter 13164 of the transcript provided
17 earlier today.
18 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Sutherland, regarding the statement, are the
19 tapes included in the list of documents admitted already? I note that
20 they are not tendered in -- actually, it's what I find in the e-court is
21 only the surrogate sheet, and you are planning to tender them in due
23 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour. We will have the
24 transcript -- it's my understanding the transcript is uploaded into
25 e-court, but we need to provide the audio tape on CD-ROM.
1 JUDGE KWON: What I find is just the e-court surrogate sheet, but
2 I'll try this ...
3 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
4 JUDGE KWON: Let's proceed.
5 MS. SUTHERLAND:
6 Q. Mr. Zulic, if you can listen to this audio tape, please.
7 [Audio-clip played]
8 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Muslims who are temporarily housed
9 in Stari Majdan, to gather at the entrance into Stari Majdan" --
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's hardly audible.
11 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry. I think we may have to start the
12 tape again at 5.13.
13 [Audio-clip played]
14 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "People of Muslim ethnicity who are
15 temporarily housed in Stari Majdan, to gather at the entrance into
16 Stari Majdan at 10.00 exactly. As stated in the appeal broadcast
17 yesterday, Muslim citizens housed in Pobrijezje and Zdena to gather in
18 front of the sports hall also together at 10.00. The Crisis Staff."
19 MS. SUTHERLAND:
20 Q. Mr. Zulic, do you know why these people were being called out?
21 Oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, if I could just pause there. If we could play
22 the next paragraph to 5 -- to code 5.34.
23 [Audio-clip played]
24 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "There's no electricity or water,
25 and the inhabitants have fled. The Serbian terrorists continue to hold
1 about 400 men captive in the sports hall. A certain number of
2 Sanski Most Serbs have, however, helped the refugees as much as they
3 could by putting them up in their homes."
4 MS. SUTHERLAND:
5 Q. Mr. Zulic, in your statement you talked about a number of
6 refugees coming to your house and staying there. Do you know why these
7 people were being called out, being asked to gather?
8 A. They were asked to gather in order to be transported, expelled
9 from their homes, and transport was organised for them to go via Jajce to
11 came back, they said they had been intercepted at Jajce and turned back.
12 Q. Do you know where they eventually ended up?
13 A. The next time the JNA came in, and I believe it was the holiday
14 of Bajram that day --
15 Q. Mr. Zulic, do you know the location of where they ended up, these
17 A. They ended up in Velika Kladusa, that is to say, refugees from
18 Mahala ended up in Velika Kladusa; whereas those from the sports hall
19 ended up in Manjaca.
20 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I have two more questions, if I
21 may, just on this point and then we -- it is time for the break.
22 Q. Mr. Zulic, which direction is Velika Kladusa in relation to
23 Sanski Most?
24 A. To the north-west of Sanski Most.
25 Q. And on which bank of the Una river is Velika Kladusa?
1 A. Well, you're asking me a lot. If you are looking the way the Una
2 flows, then it's on the left-hand side from the Una river.
3 Q. And Sanski Most would be on the right-hand side of the river; is
4 that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, this would be a good time.
8 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Zulic, we will have a -- we will take a break
9 for 25 minutes from now. During the break and the breaks that will take
10 place in the future or during the adjournment, if any, you should not
11 discuss your evidence with anybody. Do you understand, Mr. Zulic? Thank
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you.
14 JUDGE KWON: 4.00.
15 --- Recess taken at 3.36 p.m.
16 --- On resuming at 4.03 p.m.
17 JUDGE KWON: Please continue.
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: [Microphone not activated]
19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, counsel, please.
20 MS. SUTHERLAND:
21 Q. Mr. Zulic, in relation to the audiotape that you just listened to
22 before the break, did you recall hearing this announcement regarding the
24 A. Well, yes, I did hear it.
25 Q. And did you recognise the voice of the person making the
2 A. I think it was a journalist. I think it was Dragan Despot.
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: I would now like you to listen to another short
4 audio and I would like to play the audio tape of the same exhibit, 65 ter
5 13164, from 10.41 to 11.02, which is beginning in the transcript of this
6 exhibit. It's at the beginning of page 9 of the B/C/S, and it's the
7 female voice on page 5 of the transcript. For the benefit of the
8 interpreters, this is marked as clip 3 of 65 ter 13164 transcript
10 [Audio-clip played]
11 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "We call upon the inhabitants of
12 Pobrijezje to bring all their weapons and military equipment to the
13 crossroads at the check-point by 1800. If not, at exactly 1810 hours, we
14 will begin to shell the village. If the order is not complied with, we
15 will not bear moral or material responsibility for the consequences of
16 the shelling."
17 MS. SUTHERLAND:
18 Q. Do you recall hearing this announcement calling upon the
19 inhabitants of your village to surrender weapons, and if they didn't the
20 village would be shelled?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. How did you hear it?
23 A. Over the radio.
24 Q. Did you recognise the voice of the person making this
1 A. I know it was a female journalist. I know her, but I don't
2 remember the name.
3 Q. You mentioned a little earlier in your evidence that -- and you
4 mentioned the name of a man that came to collect all of the weapons. Do
5 you recall when this was?
6 A. He came before the attack on Pobrijezje in May. He was
7 Dragan Adzic.
8 Q. And so did all the inhabitants comply with this announcement?
9 A. Yes, they did.
10 Q. I would now like you to listen to another short audio from the
11 same 65 ter number 13164, and that's from 14.34 to 15.12, which is the --
12 in the transcript, the male voice on page 11 of the B/C/S transcript and
13 page 7 of the English transcript. And for the benefit of the
14 interpreters, this is marked as clip 4 of 65 ter 13164 in the transcript
16 [Audio-clip played]
17 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Sehovici, Poljak, Sasina,
18 Pobrijezje and Caplje are to collect all the legal and illegally obtained
19 weapons from all their inhabitants by 8.00 tomorrow, and at 8.00 tomorrow
20 bring them to the Sanski Most public security station on motor vehicles
21 guarded by five men. If not, the Serbian armed forces will act as they
22 did with Mahala today. Any movement at night is strictly forbidden.
23 Every citizen is obliged to remain where he is because no one's safety
24 can be guaranteed in a situation like this. Command of the Serbian armed
1 MS. SUTHERLAND:
2 Q. Do you recall hearing this announcement about the Serbian armed
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. How did you hear it?
6 A. Over the radio.
7 Q. Do you recognise the voice of the person making this
9 A. Yes, I do, but I can't remember the name just now.
10 Q. Who were the --
11 A. Perhaps I'll be able to remember in a few minutes' time and then
12 I'll tell you.
13 Q. Who were the Serbian armed forces as you understood it to be?
14 A. As far as I'm concerned, they were the illegal units which were
15 active -- well, how can I put this? They did what they did. They were
16 Chetniks there and the White Eagles, some private army soldiers. There
17 was the JNA, all sorts. So five or six different types of armies and
18 units and you didn't know who their commander was -- well, actually there
19 was Dusko Saovic, nicknamed Munja [as interpreted]. He was one of the
21 Q. The transcript says Munja, is that the correct name?
22 A. Njunja, Njunja, N-j-u-n-j-a, probably a mistake there, Njunja.
23 Q. And this man called Dusko Saovic, also known as Njunja, who was
24 he the commander of? Which -- what forces?
25 A. The SOS
1 Q. I want to turn now to your arrest on the 18th of June, 1992
2 your subsequent detention from that date until the 7th of July, 1992.
3 And for the Court and the accused's benefit, this is referenced in the
4 statement in paragraphs 46 to 74. I would ask the 65 ter number
5 0478 [sic] be brought up onto the screen. This is a photograph.
6 JUDGE KWON: 04798?
7 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour. It's a photo of one of the
8 detention facilities.
9 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
10 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please proceed.
11 MS. SUTHERLAND:
12 Q. Mr. Zulic, when the photo comes on to the screen, can you tell
13 the Court what is shown in the photograph.
14 A. The photograph shows some garages belonging to the Betonirka firm
15 where we were detained. That's where I was and the others too.
16 Q. And which of the three garages were you detained in if you --
17 looking at the -- looking at the photograph?
18 A. Looking at it this way, to the right. It was garage number 1.
19 That's how they referred to it.
20 Q. The one right at the end, on the right-hand side of the
22 A. That's right, the far right.
23 Q. Approximately how many persons were detained with you in this
25 A. About 30 to 90.
1 Q. The conditions you've described in your statement, so I'm not
2 going to ask you to recall them now. How far was this building from the
4 A. About 150 metres away, as the crow flies.
5 Q. You stated that during your detention in Betonirka you were
6 beaten. How often did this happen?
7 A. I know -- well, three nights -- only on three nights was I not
8 beaten when Tonci was on duty. He didn't touch anybody. That's a fact.
9 Q. Where were you beaten -- where were you taken?
10 A. There was a building over here behind these garages, the ones I
11 indicated, and that was an office belonging to the Betonirka firm.
12 That's where they took us and that's where they beat us. That was in the
13 evening. During the day, they would take us to the police station.
14 Q. Who beat you at these buildings? First of all, who beat you at
15 the building behind the Betonirka garages?
16 A. Anybody who came first, the guards, children coming back from
17 school, people going home from the cafe. So this began at 10.00 at night
18 until it was over, and I know the kind of language they spoke so that if
19 the children came by they would sort of train karate beating us. We had
20 to do push-ups, for example, and then two men would kick us in one part
21 of our body and the other would use a baton to hit up over the head with
22 until you become unconscious. Once you lose consciousness then something
23 else happens which I don't want to say in open session, in public
24 session, but if we go into private session I can tell you what happened
25 to us.
1 Q. Mr. Zulic, there's no need for us to do that. That's contained
2 in a paragraph in your statement, paragraph 70 for Your Honours and the
4 Mr. Zulic, who were you beaten by at the SJB building during the
6 A. The legal police officers.
7 Q. You said that on some occasion you lost consciousness. What
8 other injuries did you receive as a result of the beatings?
9 A. Well, I had fractures, broken ribs, six or seven vertebras were
10 affected. I had a fracture on my arm. They made me make the sign of the
11 cross which I refused to do, and so when I was doing push-ups, they
12 stepped on my hands so my fingers were broken.
13 Q. Did you receive any medical care for the injuries you suffered?
14 A. No. And the wound on my back went septic and the doctors used a
15 razor blade to treat it at Manjaca.
16 Q. Were other detainees in Betonirka also beaten?
17 A. From my Betonirka place just one man was not beaten. He was
18 there throughout the time that I was there. His name was Bekir. That
19 was what he was called, Bekir. He was the only person they didn't beat.
20 They took all the others out and beat them.
21 Q. And when you say from your place in Betonirka, are you referring
22 to garage number 1, but did the people that were detained with you in
23 that garage?
24 A. Yes. I don't know what happened in the other two, but according
25 to the sounds that could be heard - how shall I put this? - you could
1 hear screams and cries during the night all the time, which means that
2 they took them out too, at least that's what my conclusion was.
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: I would ask that 65 ter 04797 be brought up on
4 to the screen. This is a photograph.
5 Q. Mr. Zulic, what is shown in that photograph?
6 A. The garage inside, and that's garage number 1 because the window
7 is on the right-hand side.
8 Q. Now, you said between 30 and 90 people were detained. Was that
9 in one garage or was that in the three garages?
10 A. In one. And when they got 90 people in one then they would
11 organise a transport to Manjaca. So there would be 20 of us left inside
12 again, and then they would start filling it up and then the people would
13 be transported to Manjaca again and so on.
14 Q. I want to turn now to the event -- I've finished with the photo,
15 thank you. I want to turn now to the event on the 22nd of June, 1992
16 Kriva Cesta. For the benefit of the Court and the accused, this is
17 described at paragraph 75 to 85 of the statement.
18 Mr. Zulic, you have detailed this killing in your statement, so I
19 only want to ask you a couple of questions in relation to this. You
20 stated that you saw Rasula and other officials sitting at the picnic
21 table when the murders of the men occurred. How did you know Rasula?
22 A. Rasula was one of my professors at school. He was a teacher for
23 four years.
24 Q. And so up until 1992, approximately how many years had you known
1 A. Well, over 30 years.
2 Q. I want to turn now to the event which occurred on the 7th of
3 July, 1992, when you were transported by truck to the Manjaca detention
4 facility. For the benefit of the Court and the accused, this is
5 described in paragraphs 86 to 105 of Mr. Zulic's statement.
6 Mr. Zulic, what is the approximate distance between Sanski Most
7 and Manjaca?
8 A. As the crow flies, perhaps 15 kilometres. But if you take the
9 round-about route then it's about 10 kilometres --
10 THE INTERPRETER: 80 kilometres, interpreter's correction.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 80 or 90 kilometres. Don't hold me
12 to the figure. I might be wrong.
13 MS. SUTHERLAND:
14 Q. So driving the -- on the round-about route, approximately how
15 long would it normally take you to drive that distance?
16 A. As the road's bad, two hours maybe.
17 Q. You said in your statement that you estimated that you left
18 Betonirka at around 10.00 or 11.00 in the morning and arrived at Manjaca
19 camp at around 9.00 or 9.30 p.m.
20 of your statement.
21 A. Yes. As far as I remember, that's how it was. When we arrived,
22 the sun was going down. And at that time, during that period -- well, at
23 sun down.
24 Q. And so to drive approximately 80 kilometres it took -- it took
25 the transport approximately 10 or 11 hours; is that correct?
1 A. Well, I didn't calculate it, but it would appear that way.
2 Q. Can you briefly describe for the Trial Chamber the conditions
3 inside the covered truck that day.
4 A. The truck was closed. There was a tarpaulin. It was covered
5 with a tarpaulin, and you couldn't open it. And the exhaust pipe let off
6 exhaust fumes that came in, to the inside of the truck, so that people
7 found it very difficult to take. They had been beaten up beforehand and
8 then just thrown into the trucks. So some of them died on the way to
9 Manjaca because if you're in the open air, you need 3 cubic metres of air
10 to breathe and live normally, which means that the conditions were
11 inhuman. I had to drink pitralon and then I had to drink my own urine
12 because there was no water.
13 Q. How did these conditions affect the detainees in the truck?
14 A. A very bad effect on them. I remember one particular case that I
15 remember, two brothers Nedzad and Ahmed, they took ten minutes to die
16 which seemed to me to be a whole eternity. Others died silently. They
17 just didn't have enough air to breathe.
18 Q. I want to turn now to your detention in Manjaca until around the
19 14th of November, 1992, and for the benefit of the Court and the accused,
20 this is described in paragraphs 106 to 137 of the statement.
21 Mr. Zulic, you stated that you were detained in one of the
22 stables. Approximately how many men were detained in the stable with
24 A. Between 600 to 800 people thereabouts.
25 Q. How often did you receive food and water?
1 A. We received very little water. Once a day you would have one
2 ration, one of those military rations, per every two or three men. And
3 as for food, one loaf of bread was cut up into 44 pieces and distributed
4 amongst us. So sometimes we got food once a day, sometimes twice. The
5 liver paste, 100 grams of liver paste would be divided up among four men,
6 and that would be all. And 1/44th of a loaf of bread until the
7 International Red Cross arrived.
8 Q. How was the water dispensed?
9 A. Somebody would be sent to bring in the water, and then the two
10 men would start out through a gauntlet and they would be given water.
11 For every three men water would be poured, and then there's 2 decilitres
12 of water -- well, we called it Lima
13 it was sometimes used it for puddings, but anyway, this small amount was
14 divided among two or three men.
15 Q. I would like you to watch a video-tape, a very short clip of a
16 video-clip that I'm going to play, and I want you to tell me when to stop
17 the video-tape if you see yourself on the footage, on the video footage.
18 That is 65 ter 40043A, and if we could play it from 2.38, please, to
19 around 2.54.
20 [Video-clip played]
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here you can see them distributing
22 the water. Stop. I can show you where I was. Can I do that?
23 MS. SUTHERLAND:
24 Q. What are you --
25 A. I can see myself there on the right, wearing a white T-shirt --
1 Q. What are you wearing -- sorry, you just said a white T-shirt.
2 Are you the first person on this frame, and the frame is being frozen at
3 2.58 -- 2.53, I'm sorry.
4 A. No, I'm the second one above the two others, above that cross
5 there. There's somebody at the far right, that's not me, I'm the other
6 one in the white T-shirt.
7 Q. And as you just said, sitting under the cross on the right-hand
8 wall of the photograph?
9 A. Yes, that was a metal cross-type thing.
10 Q. And you're leaning forward slightly; is that correct?
11 A. That's right, yes.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: I've finished with the videotape. Thank you.
14 Q. Mr. Zulic, how often were you interrogated and/or beaten in
16 A. To be honest, I was rarely beaten up, only one sent [as
17 interpreted]. I don't even count the occasional hitting. And when I
18 allowed the Red Cross delegation to examine me that had arrived that day
19 from Geneva
21 Q. You said that you were nearly beat to death. What injuries did
22 you receive as a result of this beating?
23 A. Well, I had horrific injuries that you can see on me today, that
24 I can feel to this day. And if I showed you -- if I wanted to show you I
25 would have to take my clothes off.
1 Q. I will ask you to describe a little later the injuries that you
2 have. But just getting back to this beating that occurred as a result of
3 you allowing the Red Cross to examine you, what happened to you that
4 night after you were severely beaten?
5 A. Somebody pulled me into the building, into the stable. I really
6 don't know who it was. I was in terrible pain. There was water in my
8 Q. What happened the following morning?
9 A. The following morning, one paramedic came in on the sly and gave
10 me some medicine and told me to take it, and, of course, I could see when
11 they were taking out those people -- whether you were able to stand up or
12 not, you had to stand up and get out when it was time. So I could see
13 the bodies being taken out: Esad Filipovic and Omer Bender.
14 Q. The transcript reads Esad Filipovic and Omer Bender. Are you
15 sure that -- is that the correct names of these two people?
16 A. Filipovic -- maybe it's Esad Filipovic and maybe it's Esad Bender
17 and Omer Filipovic. Maybe I just inversed the first and last names.
18 Both of them are from Kljuc and both names are correct, although I don't
19 know in which combination. It's been 18 years, you understand. I know
20 that one of them was Filipovic and the other one was Bender.
21 Q. And you said that you saw the bodies being taken out. Were these
22 two men -- had these two men died?
23 A. They died. They died after being beaten up.
24 Q. I want to turn now to your transfer from the Manjaca camp and for
25 the benefit of the Court and the accused, this is described in paragraph
1 138 of the statement. Mr. Zulic, in your statement --
2 JUDGE KWON: Before that, Ms. Sutherland, if you could clarify
3 with the witness what he meant by his allowing the Red Cross to examine
5 MS. SUTHERLAND: Mm-hmm. Yes, Your Honour.
6 Q. Mr. Zulic, can you answer the Presiding Judge's question.
7 A. Yes. Yes. Precisely. The International Red Cross delegation
8 arrived and everybody was hiding. Nobody wanted to be examined except
9 the three of us because the commander of the camp had said that nobody
10 had been mistreated, nobody had been beaten up, that we had all come
11 healthy from Sanski Most, that we were all prisoners of war, and I
12 allowed them to examine me in order to deny this, to refute this.
13 Because prisoners of war usually don't dare say so because they are
14 normally brought in by the military police, which both guarded and beat
15 us up regularly. And that's the reason. I wanted the truth to be known.
16 I'm not interested in anything much in life other than that, and that's
17 why I let them examine me, to show that the commander was lying.
18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Zulic.
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, this is also in paragraph 122 of
20 his statement.
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes, I read that. Thank you.
22 MS. SUTHERLAND:
23 Q. Mr. Zulic, you said in your statement that you were taken to
24 Karlovac. Where is Karlovac?
25 A. Croatia
1 Q. How were you transported there?
2 A. By buses.
3 Q. Who arranged these buses?
4 A. The buses were organised by the Serb authorities in power at the
5 time and the International Red Cross.
6 Q. Approximately how many men were transferred with you on that day?
7 A. On that day, there were about 1800 to 2.000 men transferred,
8 minors, that is, under 18, or over 40 or maybe 45 plus. Don't hold me to
10 Q. Do you recall approximately how many minors were included in that
12 A. I don't remember how many minors there were, but I know that some
13 minors were left behind when I left. And as I was leaving, I gave my
14 pull-over to one child because I knew I was leaving and it was much
15 colder in Manjaca.
16 Q. To your knowledge, was your arrival in Karlovac filmed and
17 broadcast anywhere?
18 A. I really can't say. There was some filming and there was some
19 publicity. I didn't know it then but I learned after the war that the
20 journalists publicised it because at that time I had no opportunity to
21 watch television or listen to the radio.
22 Q. What was your physical condition when you arrived in Karlovac?
23 A. Very, very bad. Even a year after I was released I wasn't able
24 to go for a long walk.
25 Q. Mr. Zulic, my final questions to you are: As a result of the
1 assault and beatings on you what, if any, permanent disability do you
3 A. I'm physically disabled. And gradually the psychological stress
4 and burden is catching up with me and getting worse, even now as I'm
5 speaking. I don't know what it's going to be like when I get back home
6 because every time I tell it, I re-live it again and again.
7 MS. SUTHERLAND: If I could just have a moment, Your Honour.
8 [Prosecution counsel confer]
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, the disabilities that the accused
10 [sic] suffers from are contained in paragraph 139 --
11 JUDGE KWON: The witness --
12 MS. SUTHERLAND: -- of his statement. I have no further
13 questions, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE KWON: I said it should read the "witness" instead of the
16 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour. My apologies.
17 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
18 Now, Mr. Karadzic.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.
20 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
21 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, sir, there are many questions on which
22 we will easily agree, and I hope that they can be answered with a yes or
23 no so that this whole unpleasant thing for you can be finished sooner
24 rather than later, and I hope I won't have to ask the Prosecution to
25 re-call you because I didn't have time to prepare. One of the things
1 that I want to say is that the Defence is grateful to everyone who
2 contributes to getting to the truth because the Defence is interested
3 only in the truth.
4 You testified in a number of cases and you gave a number of
5 statements under different circumstances and concerning different
6 circumstances, and I can't say that you are some sort of favourite
7 witness, but it is clear that the Office of the Prosecutor holds you dear
8 as a witness. Are you aware of all the developments and events in
9 Sanski Most?
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour.
11 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
12 Yes, Ms. Sutherland.
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: I object to the question in its current form.
14 If Mr. Karadzic could he refrain from -- if he could just put a question
15 and not his thoughts on the Prosecution's view of this witness or not.
16 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Ms. Sutherland, but I -- what's the noise
17 we are hearing? I was about to raise the same thing.
18 Mr. Karadzic, just put your question.
19 Mr. Zulic, whether you can answer the question. The question was
20 whether you are aware of all the developments and events in Sanski Most.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know about 90 per cent. I'm not
22 aware of 10, perhaps even 20 per cent. I know the things I know, the
23 things I heard over the radio, that I heard from other people. But about
24 events further from Sanski Most, I'm not aware of that.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I may sound clumsy
1 sometimes. This is the first time I'm appearing as Defence counsel, but
2 I hope I'll hone my skills for the time.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. I believe you were equally held in good esteem among both Serbs
5 and Muslims. You were a renowned member of the Muslim community and you
6 knew the main representatives of the Muslim community, yes or no?
7 A. I wouldn't say that I knew them better. I knew Nedeljko Rasula
8 as well as I knew Faik Biscevic. I knew Adil Draganovic as well as I
9 knew Vlado Vrkes, which means that I didn't belong to any party, any
10 political side. I socialised equally with all people up to the very
11 moment the war began.
12 Q. So these were inter-personal contacts, not political ones?
13 A. Certainly not. I was not a communist at the time of communism
14 and I was never a member of a political party later.
15 Q. Thank you. You worked. Would you tell us about your higher
17 A. Highest school of mechanics.
18 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
19 Mr. Zulic and Mr. Karadzic, both of you are speaking the same
20 language. You need to put a pause before you start answering the
21 question. Thank you. Shall we repeat the last part?
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Could you tell us which higher school you finished?
24 A. Mechanical engineering school.
25 Q. What kind of student were you?
1 A. Average.
2 Q. You worked in the Kamengrad mine and you were rather successful.
3 You were chief of production, weren't you?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. How about your brothers and father, did you have one brother or
7 A. I had four brothers -- sorry, three. I was the fourth.
8 Q. Where did they live?
9 A. Not far from me.
10 Q. Did any one of them work in the mine with you?
11 A. Yes, my brother.
12 Q. And your father and the other two brothers did something else;
14 A. One worked at the Sip company, another one was a house painter,
15 and my father had suffered from a brain stroke after working as a rail
16 man in the mine.
17 Q. When did he suffer the brain stroke?
18 A. Sometime in 1978 or 1980.
19 Q. You knew quite a few people in the mine in Kamengrad; right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Was there anyone you didn't know?
22 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, what's the point of this question?
23 How can he answer this question as to people he doesn't know? Move on,
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, the names that the
1 witness mentions occasionally are very important. They are the main
2 players in all the events, and that's why it's important to me to
3 establish whether it is really true or not. But I'll move on to other
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Did you know Zijad Okanovic [phoen] and what he was involved in?
7 A. Yes, he was a mining engineer. He was the manager of production.
8 Q. Do you know the manager of production in the pit Salem or Salim?
9 A. Salem, yes, I knew him.
10 Q. You knew also a colleague of yours, the manager of the open pit
11 mine, Alija?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you know Enes Vejzovic?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did you know Sanja, the secretary of the director?
16 A. Which director?
17 Q. The main boss, his secretary, the boss's name was Todorovic or
18 something -- never mind. We'll come back to it. Did you know
19 Redzo Kurbegovic, what did he do?
20 A. Redzo Kurbegovic I knew. As far as I know, he was the director
21 of the public utility company in charge of heating.
22 Q. Did you know Ismet Sarcevic and what he was doing?
23 A. For a while he was a judge and then he was a lawyer; that much I
25 Q. What was the name of the president of the Democratic Action Party
1 in Sanski Most, and did you know him?
2 A. I don't know. It's either Faik Biscevic or -- I think it was
3 Faik Biscevic, the first president of the SDA party.
4 Q. Did you know his son as well?
5 A. No.
6 Q. There are two Biscevics, one is dead, Faik is dead; right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And which one is the dentist?
9 A. I think the youngest son and the other two were killed in
11 Q. Did you know Suad Sabic?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. In the days after the war, he was the public prosecutor in Sanski
14 Most; correct? Did you know Mirzet Karabeg and what he was doing?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What was his occupation?
17 A. I really don't know.
18 Q. Was he the president of the Executive Board of the municipality?
19 A. He may have been, he may have not. I had no contact with him. I
20 did not sit down and drink with him. I have no idea.
21 Q. Did you know Emir Seferovic and what he was doing?
22 A. Emir Seferovic, I know only one Emir Seferovic. I don't know
23 which one you mean.
24 Q. Let's try the one that you know.
25 A. That one was the grave digger in the mine.
1 Q. Do you know about Arif Hukanovic and his job?
2 A. I heard about the man, but what his job was, I don't think.
3 Q. What about Hasib Kamber?
4 A. Hasib Kamber is a neighbour of mine.
5 Q. What was he doing?
6 A. He was involved in politics.
7 Q. Within the party?
8 A. I suppose so.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have to explain
10 this. I'm telling him I've never been part of a party and he's asking me
11 about parties. I was never involved in politics. And what that man was
12 doing, I don't know. All I know was that he was killed.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Do you know Husein Kovacevic --
15 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, I think Mr. Zulic has a point. Where
16 is your question and what is your question? Come to your question
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, I'd like to ask
19 about one more name only.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Adil Draganovic, do you know him and what he was doing?
22 A. I know. Before the war he was a judge. After the war he was
23 judge again and now he's a lawyer.
24 Q. Was he a judge in Sharia law or he was a judge for everybody
25 including Serbs and everyone?
1 A. What kind of Sharia judge are you talking about? I can't let him
2 get away with this, really. He's trying to set he me up. I have to say
3 this. When my father died and this is very important for me to say, and
4 you will see later why because he's mentioning Sharia, when my father
5 died I wanted to re-assign his insurance and he was married with my
6 mother under the Sharia law. In this new state, however, this marriage
7 was not recognised. So this man, Adil Draganovic, could not have been a
8 Sharia judge because if he had been, I would have had to sue my father to
9 re-marry him with my mother. I just want to deal with this accusation
10 about the Sharia judge.
11 Q. Witness, don't worry, every answer is good. I just want to
12 establish that he was a judge in a regular court.
13 A. In a regular court.
14 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Zulic, I understand how you feel, but just try
15 to answer the questions. Let's move on.
16 Mr. Karadzic, what is your next question?
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Did any one of these people participate in armed conflicts and in
19 the arming of Muslims?
20 A. I don't know. Nobody armed me. I bought my own weapon. If
21 anybody was involved in that, I don't know.
22 Q. You had - and I hope you still have - four children?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. At that time, they were aged 9 to 18; right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Did you have any grandchildren at the time?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Do you have any grandchildren now?
4 A. Six, thank God.
5 Q. When did you have your first grandchild?
6 A. In 1994.
7 JUDGE KWON: How is it relevant, Mr. Karadzic? Bear that in mind
8 that what I said in the beginning of today's hearing and try to
9 concentrate on relevant questions. Move on, please.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, we're dealing here
11 with the credibility of this witness. The witness wrote that he omitted
12 to write down the horrors in his diary to prevent his grandchildren from
13 suffering. He didn't have any grandchildren at the time that he kept his
14 diary, so that is relevant in the opinion of the Defence.
15 JUDGE KWON: Move on to your question.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Did you know or do you know Zilhad Kljucanin?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. He's a writer, poet?
20 A. No, he's not.
21 Q. He isn't?
22 A. He's not.
23 Q. Well, he was.
24 A. He never was. Don't say such stupid things.
25 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now did you know Hazim Akmadzic?
1 A. No, I didn't.
2 Q. Very well. Do you know that Kljucanin wrote a book about the
3 events in Sanski Most?
4 A. Not Zilhad but Nilhad.
5 Q. We'll establish that quite easily. Now, you mentioned a
6 policeman by the name of Tonci who acted properly and correctly towards
7 the Muslims, if I can put it that way. He was good towards them. Would
8 you recognise him? Do you know him?
9 A. Well, perhaps I would recognise him but maybe not because, after
10 all, it's been 18 years since then and he's a lot older now.
11 Q. Where does he live?
12 A. I don't know.
13 Q. Didn't you say that he was killed for having helped the Muslims?
14 A. I said that I had heard that he had been killed. Now, whether
15 he's alive or not, I don't know. I can only say what I heard, and I
16 heard that the man had been killed.
17 Q. All right. Fine. Thank you.
18 Now, you say that you were not a member of any party. How did
19 you resist joining? Did they ask you to join a party at all?
20 A. Well, I did resist those temptations as early on as 1966 when I
21 was supposed to join the communist party. I didn't want to because I
22 thought that I would have to speak other people's language, Your Honours,
23 and I knew that it was all politics anyway and that I had to think the
24 way my president thought and that's something I didn't want to do.
25 Q. Ah, I see. Thank you.
1 Now, you say that none of the Muslims in this amalgamated
2 statement, number 718, in paragraph 15, you say that none of the Muslims
3 organised any kind of resistance and that there was no
4 Territorial Defence in Sanski Most?
5 A. The Territorial Defence did exist until the 18th of April, 1992,
6 that is to say until the paramilitaries and occupying JNA forces
7 disbanded it, or rather, disarmed it. After that, I don't know that
8 anybody organised any such thing, at least not in my village. Nobody
9 organised any resistance and everything that was done was done
10 spontaneously, happened spontaneously. There wasn't any commander or
11 command staff or anything like that. Had there been things like that, it
12 would have been quite a different story.
13 Q. Now, this spontaneous resistance, what was that like?
14 A. The spontaneous resistance -- well, there wasn't any of that
15 either. Your Honours, there was no spontaneous resistance. We did stand
16 guard in the village, but we had an agreement with the Serbs, and I wrote
17 that in my statement, saying that we would stand watch together.
18 However, when we took up our places the Serbs said, You stand guard on
19 your own, for yourselves, and we'll stand watch for us, amongst us.
20 Whereas we had agreed to mount a watch jointly. And as far as the
21 Muslims were concerned, there was this hunting -- there were these
22 hunting weapons.
23 Q. Thank you. I would be grateful to you if you could give me yes
24 or no answers, please, when answering my questions, although the
25 Trial Chamber might have some additional questions for you to answer.
1 But tell me this: Were there any Green Berets in Sanski Most?
2 A. No.
3 Q. I see.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now, may the witness be shown a
5 document which is D110.
6 Q. Can you he see this heading here, "Muslim Traitors," can you see
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you agree that this was the Muslim journal called "Walter"?
10 A. How should I know?
11 Q. Well, it says "Walter."
12 A. Well, if that's what it says, then that's what it is.
13 Q. In the left-hand corner it says statement of Suad Sabic, right?
14 And then this is -- it says "continued." "Statement of Suad Sabic
15 (continued)," do you see that?
16 A. Yes, I do.
17 Q. Now, I'd like to put to you and the Trial Chamber what I want
18 here and to explain it. We're dealing with 1997 or whenever. There's
19 this -- it says "Walter," who is publishing a series of articles, and the
20 statement of Suad Sabic, who at that time in 1997 was the public
21 prosecutor in Sanski Most. His name was Suad Sabic, and Suad Sabic
22 describes the events that took place in Sanski Most, mostly dealing with
23 the military organisation and arming.
24 Now, I'd like to ask you to read out where it says the president
25 of the Executive Board:
1 "Mirzet Karabeg as president of the Executive Board of the
2 Municipal Assembly mainly made a selection of personnel for certain
3 leading positions in the Assembly and co-opted membership and the
4 selection of personnel was especially marked in relation to the posts of
5 director of the PBS, which is the Sarajevo Commercial Bank, the president
6 of the court, the prosecutor, the commander of the police station, and
7 other leading positions at municipality level ..."
8 That's what it says there. Is that right?
9 A. Well, if it says that, that's what it says there, and I really
10 can't see this well enough to be able to read it. What do I have to do
11 with that?
12 Q. I'm not accusing you of anything. I just want to do what you
13 said to establish the truth. You're not responsible -- being held
14 responsible for anything here --
15 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, before you put some questions
16 regarding this document. If you could tell us in advance what this
17 document is about at all and what kind of statements he was giving this,
18 to whom?
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I apologise. This statement
20 is one that Suad Sabic gave during the war on the 25th of August, 1992,
21 to the state organs of the police station in Banja Luka or Sanski Most --
22 no, in Banja Luka. Yes, the centre of the security service was in
23 Banja Luka and the public security station was in Sanski Most.
24 Now, in this statement he describes what happened in the Muslim
25 community just before the war and at the beginning of the war, and after
1 the war, he was appointed public prosecutor in that same place,
2 Sanski Most, which now was part of the Federation, or rather, under the
3 authority of the Muslim-Croatian Federation. "Walter" published this,
4 accusing him to be a traitor of the Muslim people because to state
5 organs -- he told state organs something that they didn't want him to.
6 JUDGE KWON: So what we see before us is a publication by
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's right. "Walter" published a
9 document which the Muslim army found in the public police station when
10 they took over Sanski Most. They found this document and they gave it to
11 the newspapers and called this person a traitor.
12 JUDGE KWON: And you do not have that statement given at the
13 time, in 1992?
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Obviously it's -- remained -- it
15 remained in the Sanski Most police station. The Muslim army seized it,
16 and at some point, they handed it over to these newspapers to publish.
17 JUDGE KWON: Very well. What is your question then for this
18 witness, Mr. Zulic?
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, we have here the
20 names that I asked him about earlier on and the people that the witness
21 referred to in one of the points of his amalgamated statement, 718, he
22 called them not extremists but referred to them as a whole -- an
23 intellectual elite of the Muslim community in Sanski Most. So this is
24 highly relevant because all the names are mentioned there.
25 JUDGE KWON: But witness said earlier on that he didn't know --
1 he doesn't know anything about the arming of Muslims. So what is your
2 point of repeating those questions? Put directly your case to the
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. As the letters are too small, I'll read it out to you and then
7 ask you a question:
8 "During the functioning of the inter-party agreements, if I can
9 put it that way, when it came to cadres policy, I was proposed after the
10 appointment of public prosecutor because the president of the Executive
11 Board was to be replaced without thinking who the new candidate would be.
12 It was envisaged that this replacement of the commander of the
13 Territorial Defence Nijazevic [as interpreted] and Enver Burnic, the
14 police commander, because the party was dissatisfied with their work."
15 First of all, let me remind you of this. In part of your
16 statement you said that the Serbian Democratic Party had won the
17 elections in Sanski Most; is that right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now, the Serbian Democratic Party, did it rule alone or did it
20 share its power with the Muslims and Croats?
21 A. Well, I don't know who was in power. It was all the same to me.
22 Q. All right. Fine. But do you deny that the president of the
23 Executive Board was a Muslim, that the commander of the police station
24 was a Muslim, that the president of the court was a Muslim, that the
25 commander of the Territorial Defence was a Muslim?
1 A. Well, I don't know that. I don't know who was what and who did
2 what. I can't either affirm or deny it. How can I say what the
3 situation was like? I know that Enver Burnic was certainly the police
4 commander. Now, what post Karabeg held, I don't know, and this other
5 man -- you said that the commander of the Territorial Defence Nijaz --
6 Q. Halilovic?
7 A. Yes. Was he the commander of the Territorial Defence or not, I
8 really can't say. I don't know. Perhaps he was, perhaps he wasn't. I
9 don't want to deny it nor do I want to affirm it. I just don't know.
10 Q. All right. Well, it's common knowledge. And what about
11 Draganovic, you know he was president of the court, don't you?
12 A. Yes, I always say what I know. This is my duty before this
13 Trial Chamber. So things I know about, I can tell you about.
14 Q. All right. Fine.
15 [Defence counsel confer]
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. All right. I don't want to read the whole newspaper article.
18 I'll just read excerpts from this Muslim paper published on the 16th of
19 May, 2001, where it says that:
20 "The Crisis Staff was established both in the central -- both at
21 central and local level in Sanski Most, Muslim ones, so as to organise
22 the arming of the people and to enable the functioning of the sovereign
23 Bosnia and Herzegovina for which the Muslims opted."
24 Then it goes on to say -- well, let me ask you: Do you know that
25 a Muslim Crisis Staff existed?
1 A. No, I don't.
2 Q. It goes on to say that:
3 "Negotiations with the Serbian Democratic Party were conducted
4 with the aim of prolonging the situation and gaining in time."
5 Do you know about that?
6 A. I just heard the broadcast of a session of the Municipal Assembly
7 of Sanski Most. Now, what the negotiations were outside the session
8 that -- sessions that weren't broadcast by the radio, we ordinary mortals
9 didn't know anything about that. It wasn't something we could know
11 Q. Mr. Sabic goes on to say that:
12 "There were links with the MUP, the Ministry of the Interior, of
13 Bosnia and Herzegovina and their leadership via Ismet Sarcevic, and
14 direct contacts were also maintained with the commander of the Muslim
15 Territorial Defence Hasan Efendic --
16 A. Your Honours --
17 Q. Just tell me whether you know about that or not.
18 A. I don't know, you would have to ask Ismet Sarcevic that or that
19 other man, Suad Sabic.
20 Q. Mr. Sabic goes on to claim that the SDA of Sanski Most was linked
21 up regionally with the SDA of Prijedor and Kljuc and that the president
22 of the SDA of Sanski Most, Faik Biscevic, was linked up with Croatia
23 whence he obtained weapons and explosives. Did you know about that?
24 A. No, I don't.
25 Q. Do you still claim -- do you claim that this man Sabic could have
1 known about that?
2 A. How can I confirm that? How can I say whether he knew or did not
4 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, move on to your next question.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Mr. Sabic claims that a police car belonging to the commander of
7 the Sanski Most police station, Enver Burnic with Ismet Sarcevic and
8 Adil Draganovic, that the car went to -- was taking money for weapons,
9 that they went to Visoko, which is where the main distribution centre for
10 weapons was of the SDA party and that that's where they got their weapons
11 from. Did you hear anything about that? If not before your detention,
12 did Burnic tell you about that in prison when you were there together?
13 A. No, he didn't.
14 Q. He didn't boast and say he did things like that?
15 A. No, he didn't.
16 Q. But that is the same Burnic who was the commander of the joint
17 milicija, police force?
18 A. If you mean Enver Burnic, then yes.
19 Q. That's right, that's the one. Then Mr. Sabic goes on to say that
20 in Sanski Most before the conflict broke out, at least 1.000 weapons were
21 collected with the Muslims of Sanski Most, 1.000 barrels, referring to
22 weapons. Did you know about that?
23 A. No.
24 Q. You bought, for your own money, the M-84 machine-gun that is
25 referred to as the sower of death; is that the one?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Was it expensive?
3 A. No, 500 German marks, ten bullets. I bought it from a Serb.
4 Q. Ah, while we're on the subject, you said that that was in
5 Humrovci, or what is the place's name, Husinovci?
6 A. Yes, Husinovci.
7 Q. In a cafe?
8 A. Yes, the mirage cafe.
9 Q. Husinovci are almost 100 per cent Muslim; right?
10 A. Well, yes.
11 Q. So how did this drunken Serb dare come into a purely Muslim
12 village and offer his weapon for sale during this crisis?
13 A. Well, the crisis -- Your Honours, it's my responsibility to
14 answer you. There was no crisis because those Serbs -- I have to explain
15 this for you to be able to understand the situation. Husinovci and
16 Suhaca, two villages. The regular JNA army came to Suhaca, the
17 occupational army came there to protect the Serbs and to distribute
18 weapons to them in actual fact. And they were led by Captain Zeljaja,
19 and the man came and said, man, you're going to need this. It was
20 already April. And I saw with my very own eyes when they did this,
21 distributed the weapons, he said, I seized this weapon in Croatia on the
22 battle front. And he could move around quite freely. In May, he could
23 go around Muslim cafes. It wasn't a crisis as Mr. Karadzic has just
24 said, it wasn't a crisis at that time. There was no crisis. Right up to
25 the 15th or 13th of May until the shelling started of Muslim settlements,
1 those soldiers were viewed as people who would - how shall I put
2 this? - who would --
3 Q. Mr. Zulic, I have to interrupt you --
4 A. I haven't finished, Mr. Karadzic --
5 Q. Well, all right, then I'll have to ask the Trial Chamber to give
6 me more time --
7 A. Your Honours, he asked me a question. He asked me to explain how
8 this man dared walk around and I'm trying to explain that. Up until the
9 15th of May, there was no conflict. What politics was doing behind the
10 scenes I really don't know, but I know that these soldiers moved around
11 quite freely in the cafes and around town and all these villages.
12 Q. May I continue? Mr. Zulic, I am quoting your own words. You
13 were referring to the 15th of May, 1992; is that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. However, in another place you say that the crisis started with
16 the proclamation of Slovenia
17 downhill from that moment onwards, both in the media and inter-human
18 relations and that there was distrust, and so on and so forth. You said
19 that, not me.
20 A. Yes, that's what the situation according to the media, and there
21 was this general distrust. But what I said was that the Serbs and the
22 Muslims always socialised. They would go to cafes together until they
23 started throwing bombs, and that's what I have been saying all along. I
24 know what I said. I didn't say that Serbs didn't dare enter a Muslim
25 cafe or the Muslims go into a Serb cafe for that matter.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, at that point we will take a break, if
3 that is convenient. Twenty-five minutes.
4 --- Recess taken at 5.24 p.m.
5 --- On resuming at 5.55 p.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Sutherland.
7 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, one matter. There's a number of
8 the Defence exhibits which have incorrect translations linked in e-court,
9 and I would ask if that could be rectified as soon as possible so that we
10 can access the right translations. Thank you.
11 JUDGE KWON: And your request is communicated to the Defence.
12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE KWON: Okay. Very well.
14 Mr. Karadzic, continue your cross-examination. I'd like to
15 emphasise again there is no point of going over and over again about the
16 matters the witness has no knowledge at all. Your question does not form
17 the part of evidence. Continue, please.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency. But I
19 would kindly ask for a few minutes after the witness is ushered out at
20 the end of this session to explain my intention, and I can only say that
21 in the absence of the witness.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Witness, Mr. Zulic, in your statement in paragraphs 30, 32, and
24 41, you claim that there had been no Green Berets in Sanski Most. And I
25 will now call a Defence document, 1D30, in e-court, pages 1 through 5,
1 to ask you to look at it and see if we can comment together. Could we
2 get Defence document D130, and let's leave it on page 1 for a moment.
3 Mr. Zulic, does it say here that Zilhad Kljucanin and
4 Hazim Akmadzic wrote a book: "It is a crime to forget about a crime,
5 Sanski Most in the war 1992 to 1995," and the indication below is that it
6 was published in 1998.
7 A. Yes, I know that it's written Zilhad Kljucanin, but I know that
8 it's not Zilhad who wrote this but his brother Nihad Kljucanin who is in
10 economist and a lawyer.
11 Q. I don't want to go into this. This is the original copy of the
12 book. Let's now look through pages 1 through 5, both in English and in
14 Mr. Zulic, I will give you a brief version. The Green Berets
15 were organised, as far as Sanski Most is concerned, in Vrhpolje,
16 Hruspolje [as interpreted], Trnovo, and Kamengrad. Give us the next
17 page. This refers to the entire Bosnia
18 witness. Next page, please.
19 Here in the framed part we read:
20 "In parallel with the ever-more prominent presence of the regular
21 units of the former JNA," et cetera, et cetera, "the SDA began with
22 gathering arms and forming smaller assault combat groups against -- under
23 the sponsorship of the organisation 'Bosna Zelena Beretke,' Green Berets.
24 One such group acted in the town itself and they were frequently
25 organised in Vrhpolje, Trnovo, Hrustovo, and a part of Kamengrad.
1 Vrhpolje, in many ways, was peculiar, a particular case."
2 Can we have next page, please. Here we see on this page in the
3 framed part:
4 "The collection of funds for armament began at the end of 1991.
5 Weapons were intensively acquired during January and February of 1992.
6 According to Ifet Hukanovic" -- you know Ifet Hukanovic, don't you?
7 A. I heard of him. I didn't know him personally.
8 Q. "One of the organisers of weapons acquisition and later on one of
9 the key people in the resistance in Vrhpolje, intensive training began
10 parallel to the first aggression on Sarajevo." That's the 6th of April,
11 isn't it?
12 A. I don't know whether it's the 6th of April.
13 Q. "When the events in April occurred, the inhabitants of Vrhpolje
14 had 300 armed people from the village, mostly younger people. In
15 parallel to the developments that followed, the occupation of
16 Sanski Most, which will be discussed in a separate chapter, intensive
17 preparations were underway for resistance. Immediately at the beginning
18 of April roads were blocked, armed guards were placed around the village,
19 and especially patrols were formed to follow the movement of the enemy
20 and control the entire region."
21 Do you know anything about this, or do you continue to claim that
22 there were no Green Berets?
23 A. I claim what I saw, namely, that there were no Green Berets. As
24 for armed men in Vrhpolje, I heard after the war that there had been
25 resistance. But as for Green Berets, I hadn't seen them. I can't say
1 what I didn't see and how could I see when we were very limited,
2 restricted -- please let me finish. Because whenever something is left
3 unfinished, people get the impression that I'm saying God knows what.
4 Already in April our movements were restricted. Vrhpolje is 15
5 kilometres away from Sanski Most. Trnovo is on the other side of the
6 Sana River
7 my village there was no such thing.
8 Q. Mr. Zulic, I'm not accusing you. You don't need to defend
9 yourself, but you didn't say, I don't know. In paragraphs 30, 32, and 41
10 you said there were none, not that you don't know.
11 A. I said there were none in my village. Please don't distort the
12 truth. I don't even know that there were any in town or that there was
13 any combat. In Vrhpolje, yes.
14 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, Mr. Karadzic.
15 Mr. Zulic, do you like to have your witness statement before you?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know what is written in the
17 statement. I maintain always that there were no Green Berets, and I'm
18 talking to the best of my knowledge. To the best of my knowledge, I --
19 there were none. I don't know what happened elsewhere because I was not
20 part of any armed units and I was not part of the regular army.
21 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, Mr. Karadzic.
22 If you need to take a look at what you said in your statement,
23 don't hesitate to tell us.
24 Please go on, Mr. Karadzic.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. I would like to remind you of your amalgamated statement, 718,
3 paragraph 30.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could it somehow be given to the
5 witness, at least that page?
6 JUDGE KWON: Do you have --
7 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, we don't have a B/C/S translation
8 of this document. It would have to be brought up in e-court for the
9 witness to see it on the screen.
10 JUDGE KWON: Yes, let's do that.
11 MS. SUTHERLAND: And it would have to be read to him exactly in
13 JUDGE KWON: We don't have the translation --
14 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, the -- it would have to be interpreted by
15 the booth.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can read it, Your Excellency,
17 with your leave.
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will read it in English and then
20 it can be interpreted to the witness.
21 [In English] "On 26 of May 1992, there was another announcement
22 on Radio Sana that Muslims should surrender all weapons and that the
23 Green Berets, whose names they listed, should also surrender, including
24 Osman Talic, Nihad Kljucanin, Redzo Kurbegovic, Fudo Kurbegovic,
25 Vahid Badnjevic, Mehmed Derviskadic, Asim Bajric, and others. There were
1 never any Green Berets in Sanski Most. There was no Muslim army there
2 either; it was impossible. I heard later on that there were some armed
3 Muslims around Vrhpolje and that there was fighting. I have no personal
4 knowledge that any of the above named Muslims were ever part of any armed
5 resistance; instead, these people were selected because they were
6 prominent Muslim intellectuals and wealthy people."
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Now, let's see what paragraph 32 of your statement says. These
9 dates, 26 and 27 May will turn out to be very important. You will agree.
10 [Defence counsel confer]
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Since this paragraph 30 is fresh, let's deal with it. You've
13 heard it; right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you still claim that these were only Muslim intellectuals,
16 that they were not involved in what was ascribed to them?
17 A. To the best of my knowledge, they were Muslim intellectuals.
18 Q. They also occupied some public positions, some of them?
19 A. Redzo Kurbegovic did. As for Asim Bajric and Osman Talic, they
20 did not occupy any positions. Osman Talic had his own shop as an
21 electrician. One of them had a cafe bar. As for Nihad Kljucanin, I
22 really don't know what position he occupied, if any. Mehmed Derviskadic
23 was a doctor.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now document D131 -- can we
25 now ask for this document to be placed on the screen. The same book but
1 we now want page 5. This continues from page 4 but we he can start here.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. "Kamber managed to get a certain amount of explosives in end 1991
4 and beginning 1992. In addition to these two, the following people were
5 also involved in gathering funds and purchasing arms: Emir Seferovic,
6 Mesud Begic Sudo, Redzo Kurbegovic," that's the Redzo you mentioned,
7 (redacted) "Enver Hurlic, Nedzad Muhic,
8 Faik Biscevic, Mirzet Karabeg," that's the president of the Executive
9 Board of our own municipality --
10 A. Whether he was the president of the Executive Board, I don't
11 know. I've already said.
12 Q. All right. "... Husein Efendi Kovacevic," he was a cleric, a
13 priest, right, so he was involved too, "Arif and Ifet Hukanovic" --
14 A. Please ask your question.
15 Q. I will. I haven't finished with the names. "Rifet Bahtic" --
16 it's missing in the transcript that Husein Efendi Kovacevic was a Muslim
17 cleric, a "hodza," and the witness confirmed that he was a "hodza." Then
18 Rifet Bahtic, Ilijaz Kuselj, Ismet Sarcevic, Nihad Kljucanin,
19 Osman Talic, Fikret Majdankic and Adem Krehic. Do you know these people?
20 A. I know some, I don't know others.
21 Q. But you heard of them.
22 A. I heard of them.
23 Q. It's important to note the fact that in Sanski Most it was not
24 clearly differentiated how and when to use the combat groups of the
25 Green Berets, primarily because the communication with the regional
1 centre and the centre in Sarajevo
2 centre and there was a republic centre in Sarajevo. The reasons for bad
3 communication lay in heightened police and military controls. You just
4 said that there were controls. And I'm going to read on:
5 "Supervision by the state and military security services,
6 especially in parts of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, where
7 political work on raising national awareness and political organisation
8 of Bosniaks was particularly intense."
9 This was written by two Muslim authors, at least one of which
10 comes from Sanski Most -- I think both do.
11 What can you now say, if you re-think your claim, that there were
12 no Green Berets and no armed resistance?
13 A. I don't know about this because I keep talking about what I know,
14 and I keep saying, Your Honours, that I was not part of any organisation
15 and I did not belong to that elite. And although I had a weapon, I was
16 not given it by the SDA. I bought it from my own money, and I was not
17 given it by the JNA, who distributed arms to the Serbs --
18 Q. Leave it there. I didn't ask you that nor am I accusing you.
19 A. Well, how can I say one way or another? I never saw a
20 Green Beret with my own eyes. I know what a Green Beret is.
21 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber will monitor whether the witness is
22 answering your question correctly or not, otherwise you do not interrupt
23 his answering. Let him answer.
24 Ms. Sutherland.
25 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour, there needs to be a redaction
1 to the transcript on page 66 --
2 JUDGE KWON: [Microphone not activated]
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: And we've sent an e-mail to the court deputy
4 with the passage.
5 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, I would advise you to be very cautious
6 when you refer to a protected witness.
7 That will be taken care of.
8 Please proceed.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And who is protected? I'm sorry,
10 it was not deliberate.
11 JUDGE KWON: Please go on.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. I should only like to explain, I'm not claiming that you were
14 part of something or that you knew, but you made your statement as if you
15 had knowledge. You said emphatically, "No, there were none," and we have
16 to shed light on this. You can't say that there were none, and you said
17 authoritatively no, there were none. In the same document D131, on
18 page 6 in e-court, it says --
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And can we get that page, please.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. It says that intelligence officers were aware of the organisation
22 and arming of Muslims in Sanski Most. So it's the same document, 1D31,
23 but page 6.
24 A. May I answer to what Mr. Karadzic is saying, namely, that I'm
25 explicitly claiming something? I'm repeating for the third time now: I
1 did not see and I am not aware that there were any Green Berets. It's
2 another matter if a book appeared after the war. That someone wrote
3 something. Mr. Karadzic persists in trying to put words into my mouth
4 and tries to make me say that I knew about it. I cannot confirm what
5 I did not see, because in my village there were no Green Berets and they
6 did not pass through which means I did not see them which means that I
7 was not part of any organisation. I did not belong to any organised
8 resistance, and I confirmed that. I did not belong to a political party.
9 I was not involved in politics. And I don't want to discuss it when he
10 says names such and such and such. I know these names, but if he gave me
11 a list of Serbs I would also say that I know them. Sanski Most has a
12 population of 30.000, but the town itself has only 5.000 or 6.000. So we
13 knew each other face-to-face. At that time we didn't pay attention to
14 who was Serb, who was Muslim. We called each other mostly by nickname
15 rather than by proper names. And I'm begging you, when somebody's trying
16 to charge me with things like this not to allow it. I cannot be aware of
17 what Redzo Kurbegovic did behind the scenes. They did not report to me.
18 If they had made a report to me, I would certainly tell you.
19 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Zulic.
20 Mr. Karadzic, could you move on to your next question.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Excellency, but I'd just
22 like to tell the witness to relax because I'm not accusing him of having
23 done anything. He just said quite emphatically that that wasn't possible
24 so that statement went down on record so that has to be explained. Is it
25 that he doesn't know or is it that he does know and it wasn't possible.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I claim that it was not possible to
2 wear a green beret on your head, that's what I claim and state. Because
3 in June already -- well, check-points in 1991 had been set up with the
4 army controlling the comings and goings, and it was the JNA at the time.
5 They manned the check-points.
6 However, as of January 1992, the Serb army took over this and the
7 Serb police and the Muslims and Croats were sent away from the
8 check-points. All the vehicles were controlled and checked. Now, who
9 did what where, I really can't say. And I never saw a green beret. The
10 first time I saw a green cap was when I went to Germany and I saw a
11 customs officer, a German customs officer at the border crossing between
13 here we are, a green beret. So that's something I stand by and that's
14 something I'm stating, that I saw a green cap, and a green beret is a
15 green cap.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I continue, Your Excellency?
17 JUDGE KWON: I would like you to move on to another topic.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. We have page 6 of this document. Let me just remind you, I'm not
20 attacking you. There's no reason for you to defend yourself. I'm just
21 attacking your assertions. In paragraph 15, you said there was no
22 resistance, no organised resistance whatsoever. Now I have to show that
23 there was resistance because your testimony is very important. Let's
24 look at page 6 of this same document, where it says in that section
25 marked in red:
1 "For that period, perhaps the most important was the work of
2 their intelligence services," and what is referred to here is the JNA,
3 "and that goes to illustrate how serious they were in their preparations.
4 More specifically, from the very beginning of the preparations for an
5 armed resistance, all the activists and organisers were under direct
6 surveillance by Serbian intelligence agents."
7 Now, you see the JNA, or rather, the state army, the sole
8 legitimate legal military force paid attention to see who was in
9 possession of weapons or was being organised in an unlawful manner. It
10 would be a good idea now if we were to see what the Serb intelligence
11 officers and agents said about that, the ones referred to in this
12 paragraph. And in order to do that, let's look at Defence document
13 D18 -- or rather, 1D8 is the document number.
14 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, excuse me.
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
16 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could Mr. Karadzic refrain from giving comment
17 and put a question instead.
18 JUDGE KWON: As he admitted, he's not accustom to it. So let's
19 expect he will develop his skill for that.
20 Bear that in mind and what is your question? Do we have 1D8
21 before us?
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Here we can see a report from one such intelligence officer of
24 the JNA and the date here is the 7th of March, 1992, which is when the
25 JNA was in Bosnia
1 "According to verified information, in the area of DP Sanski
2 Most, several persons were observed wearing Green Beret uniforms in the
3 vicinity of Sanski Most moving freely around inhabited areas. They wore
4 the crescent and star insignia on their berets, they were armed with
5 automatic rifles and they were brazen and fairly aggressive. Among the
6 Green Berets mentioned, the brothers Huranovic, Arif and Izet Huranovic
7 from Vrhpolje were particularly prominent.
8 "In Donji Kamengrad where there was a rally, about 500 armed
9 civilians were noted, among whom members of the Green Berets, who asked
10 that all armed persons launch an attack on the Serbian village of Suhaca
11 According to realistic estimates, about 3.000 Muslim citizens owned
12 long-barrel weapons and are part of the SDA, Party of Democratic Action,
13 armed formations. Those main responsible from the SDA's activities are
14 Sarcevic, a lawyer, Ismet Sarcevic ..."
16 then Adil Draganovic, I don't suppose he was a protected person, he was
17 president of the court. Then there was Revzid Kurbegovic, president of
18 the SDA Board; Mirzet Karabeg, president of the Executive Board of
19 Sanski Most; and Enver Burnic, commander of the Sanski Most police
20 station. These are all joint institutions, Serb and Muslim; is that
21 right? And we have the date there. It says the 7th of March, so that is
22 prior to the Lisbon Agreement and one month before the war broke out;
23 isn't that right?
24 A. I don't know that. I don't know much about that, but what you're
25 saying about the JNA as being the only regular army, as far as I was
1 concerned it was an occupation force and it still is, as far as I'm
2 concerned. And on the 1st of March those units were the occupying forces
3 in Bosnia-Herzegovina. They were an army belonging to another state
4 because Bosnia-Herzegovina was recognised on the 1st of March, 1991
5 that's the first point.
6 Secondly, the fact that he says that there were over, what, 3.000
7 Muslims -- 3.000 people attacking the village of Suhaca
8 attack the village of Suhaca
9 Suhaca already in January 1992? So there's something wrong there.
10 Secondly, I don't know who wrote this report because someone
11 wrote a report about me, Your Honours, saying that I was going to
12 slaughter some Serbs up there. A report like that was written about me
13 and it was not true. So looking at this report here I don't know who
14 wrote it. Who is this man, Milos
15 Q. May I be allowed to explain --
16 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, excuse me. May we go into private
17 session for just a moment?
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes, let's go into private session.
19 MR. TIEGER: And may I ask the witness remove his headphones for
20 just a moment.
21 JUDGE KWON: Before that, Mr. Zulic -- Mr. Zulic.
22 [Private session]
11 Page 1071 redacted. Private session.
13 [Open session]
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I explain before we do that,
15 before we go into open session. I apologise, it was my mistake --
16 JUDGE KWON: We need to go back to private session again. We are
17 now in open session.
18 [Private session]
22 [Open session]
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But when I uttered the name, I
24 realised that that person might be one too, so that's it.
25 JUDGE KWON: So bear that in mind in the future. We go back to
1 open session. We are now in open session.
2 Mr. Zulic, all this was related to an issue regarding the
3 protective measures of another witness, nothing to do with you. So sorry
4 for your inconvenience.
5 So let's continue. Mr. Karadzic.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. You see you mentioned Suhaca, but in paragraph 18 of your
9 statement the Serb forces were in Suhaca only in April 1992 on the basis
10 of this information. They went there to protect the population. So
11 after this piece of information on the 3rd of March -- and I want to put
12 something right, it wasn't on the 1st of March, but the 6th of April that
14 pursuant to an agreement.
15 A. Well, I don't know that it was legitimate. I don't know that. I
16 don't know. But as for April, they arrived before that and there were
17 reservists even from Serbia
18 well. And the Serb who sold me the weapon, he was from Bosanski Novi.
19 Q. All right. Let me take you back to paragraph 18 where you say
20 that at the end of April the reservists arrived in Suhaca, and they
21 arrived - let me remind you - on the basis of this piece of information.
22 So they arrived to protect the people where an attack was expected.
23 A. First of all, the information was false, untrue. Let me explain.
24 They came there -- well, they came to any village -- I have to say
25 something here. They wanted to bring in weapons to these various
1 villages and did that. They brought in weapons and armed the Serbs
2 there. Now, how did they know where there was a mixed population so as
3 not to make a mistake, to give the weapons to the Muslims? There was a
4 candle lit in a window when the blinds were raised, and I saw that during
5 the Bajram holiday when they went around distributing weapons in
6 Todorovica Sokak. I saw this with my very own eyes, I saw them
7 distributing the weapons. I wanted to stand in line, I would have saved
8 500 marks, but I didn't. Because I was afraid that they would recognise
9 me, and goodness knows what they would do to me.
10 Q. Mr. Zulic, you're making my job more extensive now because I have
11 to challenge what you're saying. If you make these assertions, I'm not
12 angry with you, I'm angry with your assertions. You claim that you know
13 something which jeopardises, not only these proceedings, but paints a
14 different picture of what was happening over there. And let me say that
15 this report is not a false report. It has a Prosecution number, and it
16 was the Prosecution which seized this document. It wasn't for the media.
17 This is a secret report written by the intelligence service, by an
18 intelligence officer.
19 A. Yes, but what kind?
20 Q. Let's move on. Let's move on.
21 You repeated yourself several times the fact that you knew
22 everybody in Sanski Most and you knew -- know most of the people I
23 mentioned. But let's clear something up. When the reservists arrived in
24 Suhaca and when this report was written, and now I'd like us to look at
25 another document, or rather, to look at what you said --
1 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Just a second.
2 Yes, Ms. Sutherland.
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, the document was seized from the
4 Banja Luka CSB
5 intelligence officer was working for at the time when he doesn't know
6 this information.
7 JUDGE KWON: Let's move on.
8 What is your next question?
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, on the 7th of
10 March, Yugoslavia
11 operating, so whether it was a military intelligence officer or a
12 civilian agent belonging to the state security, they worked for the state
13 service, the state intelligence and security service --
14 JUDGE KWON: I told you to move on to your next question or next
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, let's move on to the next
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Mr. Zulic, in paragraph 23 of your amalgamated statement, you
20 said that the Serbs on the 13th of May, 1992, left Sanski Most and took
21 to the mountains?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Very well.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now may we have Defence document
25 1D30 up on our screens again and this time page 5. We have page 5 on our
1 screens now.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. It says there that:
4 "There was a conflict between the armed Muslim formations with
5 the Serb army on the 14th and 15th of April -- no, May 1992 and there
6 were about 300 armed Muslim fighters. The unit was commanded by the late
7 Arif Hukanovic, 'rahmetli,'" meaning deceased or late. "The commander of
8 the armed company was Beco Buljubasic, one-time captain of the JNA. The
9 commander of the 2nd Company was Said Keranovic, and the commander of the
10 platoon of the Green Berets was Ifet Hukanovic."
11 Now, let's clarify matters here. A unit is broader than the
12 Green Berets, and within the unit, there was a separate Green Berets
13 unit, as a sort of forward formation. Now, this formation was stationed
14 in Vrhpolje and was a respectable force and the aggressor in the
15 beginning avoided direct conflicts in the area it controlled. Now,
16 obviously the enemy carried out all encompassing preparations with the
17 intention of finally destroying this unit. Therefore, the first conflict
18 occurred between the 14th and 15th of May, 1992. The Vrhpolje forces
19 stationed around the school carried out an unexpectedly strong resistance
20 to the aggressor and the enemy was forced to retreat. They were
21 inflicted with personnel losses and the assumption is that that battle,
22 around ten enemy soldiers were put out of -- now, you say that in May,
23 the Serbs took to the mountains, right, on the 13th from Sanski Most?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, you see what this is about, there were conflicts, battles,
1 respectable force of all these armed Muslims in just one village, 300 of
2 them, do you still claim there was no organised resistance, no military
3 formation, and within those formations a Green Beret unit; is that what
4 you still claim?
5 A. I'm repeat what I already said for the third time. You're
6 talking about Vrhpolje now. Now, Vrhpolje is 15 kilometres away from
7 Sanski Most, and I think you've mixed things up here. And from
8 Sanski Most, the civilians did leave -- Serbs did leave the village and
9 I've said that, and I remember saying that quite explicitly in my
10 statement. And I call up my manager Strbac to ask him what was
11 happening, and he said quite literally and I'm going to quote his words -
12 I apologise in advance for those words and the vulgarity that I'm going
13 to utter - but he said, Fuck them, they're preparing an attack on
14 Sanski Most. And all the Serbs who wanted to join their ranks were in
15 the mountains. They've taken to the mountains so that they can target
16 the houses. So that is what I explicitly say in my statement, whereas
17 this is 15 kilometres away from Sanski Most. And I said -- and if you
18 look at the transcript you'll see that I did say that there was
19 resistance in Vrhpolje. So I don't know what the Serb army was looking
20 for in a purely Muslim village, what they wanted. And later it turned
21 out that on the 28th of May, they shelled Sanski Most and that's why the
22 civilians left, to avoid anybody being killed. And I've been saying that
23 for two or three times now.
24 Q. And where's Mahala?
25 A. Mahala is along the Sana River
1 Q. How far away, 500 metres?
2 A. Well, some houses are as close as 2 kilometres.
3 Q. In your statement, paragraph 32, it says that on the 27th of May,
4 1992, the Serb army gathered the population of Mahala at the stadium in
5 Krkojevci so that the army could deal with the extremists?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. In this paragraph you say that it was not true that the Serb
8 forces had been attacked, which is quite obvious from the Defence
9 document 1D30.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D30, please, the document we've
11 seen before.
12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, the witness actually said in
13 paragraph 32:
14 "The same day I also heard on the radio that the Green Berets had
15 attacked the Serbian forces in Hrustovo, this is simply not true."
16 So I would ask that Dr. Karadzic put the exact quote when he's
17 putting something to the witness.
18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Ms. Sutherland.
19 So now we have that document in front of us. So what is your
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. I will go back to Hrustovo. We are talking now about Mahala
24 which is part of Sanski Most, practically a suburb.
25 A. It's not a suburb. It's a neighbourhood inside the town.
1 Q. I'll accept that. Thank you.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I need page 6 of this document,
3 1D30. That's the page.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Allow me to read from the word "namely." The Chamber will find
7 "Namely, Avdic's and Hukanovic's evaluation was that offensive
8 combat actions needed to be begun in order to inflict losses on the enemy
9 in terms of manpower and equipment, thus a platoon from Sanica got
10 assigned to the village of Korjenovo
11 Korjenovo was generally known as a Chetnik stronghold. The task of the
12 Vrhpolje people was to block the road Sanski Most-Kljuc. By blocking
13 this road" -- sorry, "the blocking of this road was directly supervised
14 by Arif and Ifet Hukanovic. The third group of the force of one
15 reinforced platoon had the task to attack the Peci village. The rest of
16 the battalion was stationed on the most favourable positions so as to
17 effect a quick manoeuvre if needed and assist. The action was
18 co-ordinated and began on the 27th May 1992 with the blocking of the road
19 Sanski Most-Kljuc at the entrance to the Gornji Ramici village. The
20 Chetniks sent immediately to this axis a group of 14 specially trained
21 military and civilian policemen. As they arrived to their destination,
22 sometime around 1100 hours combat immediately began when fire was
23 returned. Policeman Dusan Duca Stojakovic was killed and Milos Kecman, a
24 military police, and Zeljko Despot were wounded."
25 Could you --
1 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Karadzic, after reading this passage,
2 repeat his actual question.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know the village of Ramici
4 is away from Sanski Most and so is Kljuc. I'm telling you again, I don't
5 know about these operations. All I know is that Ramici is not a Serbian
6 village, it was a mixed one. There were four Serb houses and four Muslim
7 houses. It's not even a village, it's a hamlet. The very name, Ramici,
8 means that they were named by somebody, a Muslim, called Rama.
9 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic --
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because this village up there was
11 mentioned by Mr. Karadzic a moment ago was a Serb village, but what
12 happened there I don't know. It was 25 to 30 kilometres away from
13 Sanski Most from Pobrijezje, in fact, not from Sanski Most. Which means
14 it was not linked to Sanski Most --
15 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic --
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Please answer my questions --
18 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, although Mr. Zulic answered your
19 questions, the interpreters couldn't hear your question and Judges and
20 others didn't hear your question in translation. So could you repeat
21 your question.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The question referred to this
23 paragraph in this Muslim book. The very well prepared offensive
24 operation, it's not even an action, it's an offensive operation against
25 Sanski Most and the Serb villages around Sanski Most. And the beginning
1 of the action was to block the road near Ramici village. And now I would
2 like to ask Mr. Zulic --
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Where is Peci village?
5 A. Peci and Ramici are two neighbouring villages, 5 kilometres from
6 Kljuc and from Sanski Most. I've just said that it's 25, 30 kilometres
7 from Sanski Most. It's closer to Kljuc than Sanski Most. I know exactly
8 where the village is. I know that from Peci you go down a very steep
9 slope to Ramici, and then when you pass Ramici, there are another
10 3 kilometres to go, which means it's 25 kilometres from Sanski Most. I
11 don't see what Mahala has to do with the defence and preparation because
12 I'm not a military expert, I can't see any sense in this. I can't
14 Q. Okay. I'll go a paragraph before this one, second paragraph.
15 "Shortly after people from Kljuc" --
16 THE INTERPRETER: Could we get an exact reference, please, for
17 the English text, please.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Do you see that these people from Sanski Most and Kljuc formed a
20 joint battalion, and that is the connection with Ramici and the Peci
21 villages, and we'll go back to Mahala as well because Mahala was also
22 planned as a target -- sorry, I meant to say that Mahala was also to be
24 A. Your Honours, I'm not a military expert or a military analyst
25 that I could know these things. I keep saying that I'm not knowledgeable
1 about military affairs. I was a simple soldier in the navy. So if
2 somebody organised something, a resistance, 30 kilometres away and did
3 something I was not involved in, I cannot talk about it. I can only talk
4 about what I saw and what I survived. About cases like this, he wants to
5 put something in my mouth and make me say, Yes, that's so. I'm not a
6 military expert. I think military experts will deal with this.
7 Q. Can I return you to Sanski Most. Mahala is a part of
8 Sanski Most. Was Mahala armed and did it have any armed units or were
9 they just civilians?
10 A. As far as I know, we did not and they were civilians. Because
11 if -- from 1500 houses, 1200 civilian men were taken to Manjaca, then I
12 don't know who could have been left.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 6 of this document, please,
14 1D31. We need page 6. This one was 5.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. So here we are on page 6 of the same book -- sorry, page 6 of
17 this document, second framed paragraph:
18 "The first organised offences," sorry, "preparations for offering
19 resistance to the growing Serb Nazi fascism in individual parts of the
20 municipality Sanski Most such as Vrhpolje, Trnovo, Hrustovo, Sehovaca,
21 Kamengrad, and urban and suburban settlements of Mahala and Muhic gave,
22 on the one hand, a certain sense of safety to Bosniaks, while on the
23 other hand" --
24 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Karadzic needs to slow down when reading
25 because the question is lost afterwards.
1 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, Mr. Zulic.
2 Because you read too fast, the interpreters couldn't follow. So
3 when you read out some documents you need to slow down, bearing in mind
4 the interpreters.
5 I see the watch -- before finalising your question, how much
6 longer do you have for this witness?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In view of the fact that it's hard
8 to elicit answers from him, I am afraid I need two or three more hours
9 because many things remain unclear and will remain unclear and this is
10 really very important. Rather three than two.
11 JUDGE KWON: You have to bear that in mind there's no point of
12 putting documents as to which the witness has no knowledge. Your
13 question does not form part of any evidence. There's no point of hearing
14 your statement. The Chamber will think about how to proceed tomorrow,
15 but let's finish. We have some two or three minutes. Finalise your
16 question and Judge Morrison has something to tell you.
17 Let's deal with this question only. So what was your question?
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I referred to the paragraphs from
19 the statement of this witness, where he emphatically claims things that I
20 can dispute and I deal only with that.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. And my question is: When you he see this, do you think you
23 should have said in your statement, I don't know, instead of having said
24 "it wasn't possible"?
25 A. This first text, these first organised preparations, is that what
1 you mean? Do you want me to answer that? I'll answer, no problem.
2 Q. Do you he see Sanski Most, Vrhpolje, Trnovo, Hrustovo, Sehovci,
3 Kamengrad, as well as urban and suburban settlements of Mahala?
4 A. Now, give me a minute. I can see that but allow me to answer.
5 Then the man writes very nicely here - I don't know who wrote this -
6 "Some still believe that Serbs would never do them any harm. Some did
7 believe it was possible, but some didn't which made it hard to prepare
8 for resistance," which means that my claim there was no resistance is not
9 absurd because I too didn't believe that it would happen. If I had been
10 working with someone together for 30, 40 years, I could never believe
11 that this person would one day come and beat me up just because I wrote
12 in the log-book that he came to work for four hours which was the truth.
13 In Mahala there was no preparation of any kind. I don't know about
14 Kljuc. Maybe there was resistance in Kljuc.
15 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, we'll stop here for today and
16 Judge Morrison has something for you.
17 JUDGE MORRISON: Dr. Karadzic, obviously until you started
18 cross-examining today, the Bench wasn't aware of how you were going to
19 participate in cross-examination. So what I'm about to say, really, is a
20 suggestion to you that should enable you to be more concise, and, in
21 fact, will not only assist you but will assist the witness, whoever the
22 witness is, and assist the Judges.
23 The first thing that you are inclined to do, and it's been
24 commented on quite rightly by the Prosecution, is that you engage in
25 comment. That's a common fault in advocates of all experience. It's not
1 simply a junior advocate but even some senior advocates do it, and you
2 have to guard against it for three reasons. First of all, comment is not
3 a question; secondly, it's not evidence, what you say in comment is not
4 evidence; and thirdly, because of your duality of the role of an accused
5 and a Defence lawyer, a comment could also be an admission on your part.
6 For instance, if a witness says something and you say, That's right,
7 that's not simply a remark it is actually a comment that may also be an
8 admission that you accept the truth of what that witness is saying, and
9 it can be confusing because it may well be that what you are saying is
10 right relates to only a small portion of what the witness has actually
11 said. So be very cautious about commenting. It wastes time and it
12 doesn't assist the Court.
13 The second point is this: Occasionally in cross-examination, you
14 have to ask non-leading or open questions to elicit information, and a
15 non-leading or an open question normally begins with: What, where, when,
16 why, how, and that's a task which falls to anyone, whether it's a
17 Prosecutor or Defender, who's questioning their own witness. But when
18 you're cross-examining, you have the luxury of being able to ask leading
19 questions. You can put directly to a witness that which you want the
20 witness to say. Obviously you have to be sure of your ground before you
21 say it, but it can save an awful lot of time.
22 For instance, and this is just a hypothesis in this case, if you
23 had said to this witness: For instance, you are not saying there were no
24 Green Berets in Sanski Most, you are simply saying that you didn't see
25 any, it may well be that the witness would have simply answered, Yes, and
1 you would have made your point in one question and one short answer
2 without the necessity of going on at length about it. So think as to
3 whether or not you can put a direct leading question, because if you can,
4 and you are entitled to do so, it can save a lot of time. And it has
5 this very great effect that you are stating your case shortly and a Judge
6 should be able to glean what an advocate's case is within the first 10 or
7 15 questions that they ask, whether they're prosecuting or defending.
8 And that assists everybody, not least the Judges. So all I'm suggesting
9 to you is that you think carefully about adopting a mode of questioning
10 that does away with comment and, where possible, utilise the great
11 benefit of being able to ask leading questions.
12 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Judge Morrison.
13 With that, we'll adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00.
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.04 p.m.
15 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 14th day of
16 April, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.