Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1282

 1                           Wednesday, 21 April 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good afternoon, everybody.

 7             Mr. Tieger, you have a new team member.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  Good afternoon, Your Honour, Your Honours.  We are

 9     joined by Mr. Julian Nicholls to my left today, in addition to myself and

10     Mr. Reid.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Tieger.  Welcome, Mr. Nicholls.

12             If the witness could take the solemn declaration.

13             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President.  Before we do that, I

14     just want to let you know Peter Robinson is now appearing with

15     Dr. Karadzic.  Thank you.

16             JUDGE KWON:  I'm sorry, I missed you.  Welcome, Mr. Robinson.

17             MR. ROBINSON:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

18             JUDGE KWON:  So, Mr. Witness, could you take a solemn

19     declaration.

20                           WITNESS:  KDZ064

21                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

23     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Please take a seat.

25             My understanding is that this witness is enjoying the protective

Page 1283

 1     measures of pseudonym and face distortion, not the voice distortion.  Am

 2     I correct, Mr. Nicholls?

 3             MR. NICHOLLS:  That is correct, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  So, Mr. Witness, so you will be called by your

 5     pseudonym during the course of the -- your evidence at the Tribunal, and

 6     your face will not be broadcast.  I understand that such situations are

 7     explained to you.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  And I was told that there was a preliminary matter

10     from the accused to raise, but I'm not sure whether we need to hear that

11     in the presence of the witness or not.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, good afternoon.

13     I said last time that I would like to clarify a matter, and you said that

14     we'll leave it for next time.  Of course, this can be done during the

15     break before the witness comes into the courtroom next time.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But before the witness goes ahead

18     and before I start my cross-examination, in actual fact, I'd also like to

19     ask something, raise an issue.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Then, Mr. Nicholls, could you start, please.

21             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

22                           Examination by Mr. Nicholls:

23        Q.   Good morning, sir.

24        A.   Yes, good morning.

25        Q.   Can you hear me okay?

Page 1284

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Okay.  As I told you before, it's going to be a little bit

 3     different this time than when you testified before.  We're going to put

 4     in your testimony that you've given earlier, and I have to ask a few

 5     questions about that before we do that.

 6             MR. NICHOLLS:  But first could I have the pseudonym sheet.  It

 7     should not be broadcast.  This is 65 ter number 90178.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Now, sir, if you can just look at the name on that

 9     piece of paper on the screen in front of you, read it to yourself

10     quietly, and just could you confirm that your name is written there?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  I'm done with that.

13             MR. NICHOLLS:  If that could be admitted under seal, please.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, that can be Exhibit P767, under

16     seal.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

18             MR. NICHOLLS:

19        Q.   All right.  Sir, let me just ask you these questions about your

20     earlier testimony so we can put those statements in.

21             Can you please confirm to the Trial Chamber that you listened to

22     the audio recordings of your entire testimony in the Popovic case, and

23     you also listened to the -- your testimony in the Slobodan Milosevic

24     case, including the entire cross-examination by Mr. Milosevic.

25        A.   Yes.

Page 1285

 1        Q.   Thank you.  And could you also confirm for the Trial Chamber that

 2     if you were asked the same questions today -- sorry.  Let me go back.

 3     And can you confirm that when you listened to those audio recordings they

 4     were an accurate record of your testimony?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  And if you were asked the same questions today as in

 7     those prior testimony, would your answers be the same?  Could you confirm

 8     that?  With the exception of some additional clarifying information about

 9     one of your brothers that we'll -- we'll get to soon?

10        A.   Yes, yes.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honours, now I'd like to admit - I think this

13     is the way we're doing it - the statement which is 65 ter 90112, which

14     would be under seal because that contains the complete testimony

15     including private session, and we have a public version which is 90112A.

16             JUDGE KWON:  You meant to tender them.

17             MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Just one clarifying question.  When there are

19     several transcripts, the Chamber order was for you to produce just one

20     transcript.  Otherwise, an amalgamated statement.  So technically, this

21     practice is in breach of that order, and then that's the first question.

22     And the second question is why only the part of that cross-examination?

23             MR. NICHOLLS:  I'll explain that, Your Honour.  I did not intend

24     to breach the order.

25             The -- this is essentially an amalgamated statement.  The purpose

Page 1286

 1     of including simply part of the cross-examination from the Milosevic case

 2     was because that was an area that the witness was cross-examined on more

 3     extensively and more -- and more -- in a more lengthy and perhaps

 4     comprehensive manner than was in the Popovic cross-examination.  So there

 5     is very little overlapping evidence in those two transcripts.

 6             Mr. Milosevic, in his cross-examination, concentrated primarily

 7     on a different area, and that's why I've included just his

 8     cross-examination and not the cross-examination by others in the

 9     Milosevic case.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have any observation, Mr. Karadzic or

11     Mr. Robinson?

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The Defence believes that this is a

13     very important part, and as you'll see in due course, the Defence will be

14     focusing precisely on that part, although this is all cumulative.  But in

15     any case, I have to devote most of my time to that particular portion,

16     and later on I'll be sending the Trial Chamber a kind request asking them

17     for certain changes with respect to the other part that this witness is

18     going to deal with, because the cross-examination will focus mostly on

19     that portion.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

21             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honours, if I may quickly --

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

23             MR. NICHOLLS:  That is why -- I thought that might be the case,

24     that Mr. Karadzic would think that area was important, and that's why it

25     was included as well as the Popovic testimony.

Page 1287

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Those will be admitted as one amalgamated statement.

 4             Mr. Doraiswamy.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  65 ter 90112 will be

 6     Exhibit P768, under seal, and 90112A will be Exhibit P769.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 8             Mr. Nicholls.

 9             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I'll now read a short

10     summary of the witness's evidence.

11             The witness was born in Zvornik municipality and grew up there.

12     At the beginning of March 1993, he and his family were forced from

13     Kamenica by Bosnian Serb forces.  At this time, his wife and children

14     fled to Tuzla, and he fled to Konjevic Polje.  He stayed in Konjevic

15     Polje for six days.

16             Serb forces in Tumace then opened fire on Konjevic Polje and the

17     witness fled to Pervane.  He stayed in Pervane for two days before

18     leaving for Srebrenica with his two brothers, and they remained in

19     Srebrenica until the fall of the enclave on 11 July 1995.

20             The days before 11 July were rife with panic, in the witness's

21     words, for the population of the Srebrenica enclave.  On 11 July, in the

22     face of the Bosnian Serb advance on the enclave, the entire population of

23     Srebrenica fled.  Some went to Potocari, others to the woods.  The

24     witness and one of his brothers assembled with thousands of other Muslim

25     men in the nearby village of Susnjari to begin the trek towards Tuzla.

Page 1288

 1     Another brother who had a disability, was an invalid, chose to go to

 2     Potocari.  This brother managed to cross to Muslim-held territory.

 3             The witness spent the night of 11 July in Susnjari along with

 4     approximately 15.000 to 20.000 other Muslim men, according to his

 5     estimate.

 6             On 12 July, the group of Muslim men set off from Susnjari in a

 7     long column heading towards Tuzla.  There were 400 to 500 armed men,

 8     armed Muslim men in the column, mostly toward the front of the column,

 9     and later that afternoon the witness was in the last group of the column

10     to leave with his brother.  He and his brother were not armed.

11             He spent the night of 12 to 13 July in the woods with others from

12     the column.  On 13 July, the next day, Bosnian Serb soldiers with

13     megaphones called on the people in the column in the woods to surrender.

14     Around this time the witness saw two Muslim men commit suicide, one with

15     a grenade.  The other shot himself in the head.

16             That afternoon at around 1500 hours, he and many others decided

17     to surrender to Serb soldiers who were calling them.  These prisoners,

18     approximately a thousand of them, over a thousand of them, according to

19     the witness's estimate, were lined up in rows in a large group in a

20     meadow in Sandici next to the Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road.  There were

21     also some women, girls, and boys present amongst the prisoners at Sandici

22     meadow.

23             About a dozen boys under 15 and some women and girls were

24     permitted to get onto buses carrying Muslim women and children from

25     Srebrenica which were passing by on the Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road

Page 1289

 1     taking these people from Potocari.  That afternoon, General Mladic came

 2     to Sandici meadow and he addressed the prisoners, promising them that

 3     they would be exchanged.  And the prisoners applauded General Mladic when

 4     he said that.  Later that evening, a large number of trucks and buses

 5     arrived at Sandici.  The prisoners boarded those buses and trucks and

 6     were taken away to Bratunac.

 7             He spent the night, the witness spent the night, 13 to 14 July,

 8     in Bratunac inside the truck he'd been placed on, parked outside

 9     buildings of Vihor garages.  During the night some prisoners were taken

10     off of these parked trucks.  Soldiers would shout out for prisoners from

11     certain villages, and those who answered were taken off the trucks.  The

12     witness could hear sounds of beating, screams, shots being fired, and

13     these prisoners were not seen again and were not returned to the trucks.

14     The witness himself did not see any prisoners being shot from inside of

15     his truck, but this is what he heard around him.

16             The next day, 14 July, the trucks and buses left Bratunac in a

17     long convoy, 20 to 30 vehicles the witness saw, and headed north towards

18     Zvornik via Konjevic Polje.  In Divic, a village just south of Zvornik,

19     the witness saw a white UN APC.  The convoy of vehicles continued to

20     Karakaj, north of Zvornik, and then turned left in the general direction

21     of Tuzla.  The witness hoped, and the others, that they were being taken

22     to Tuzla for an exchange.  However, instead this convoy of trucks and

23     buses went to Orahovac and stopped at the elementary school there.  The

24     UN APC was parked there in the schoolyard, and the witness realised it

25     had actually been captured by Bosnian Serb soldiers.

Page 1290

 1             The witness and hundreds and hundreds of other Muslim men, along

 2     with four young children aged approximately 10 to 14, placed in the gym

 3     of the elementary school at Orahovac and kept there as the gym kept

 4     filling up with prisoners.  He and the other prisoners were forced to

 5     leave some of their clothing in a large pile on the way to the gym.  The

 6     witness was told to take off his jacket and leave it there.  Other men

 7     were told to take off their shirts --

 8             THE ACCUSED:  Objection, Excellency.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, yes.

10             THE ACCUSED:  Yes, I would object, really.  Of course, if --

11     if -- [Interpretation] In any case, if you want to hear this for dramatic

12     reasons, the details of this to be presented, that's fine, but it will

13     take away a lot of my time, and this is also a form of cumulative

14     testimony in view of the fact that in the previous --

15             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic.  This is unacceptable.  This is a

16     summary of the witness's evidence on the part of the Prosecution for the

17     benefit of you and the public, and the Chamber as well.  This is not part

18     of evidence.  You will be given ample opportunity to cross-examine this

19     witness, so I would like you not to interrupt this, giving the summary of

20     the evidence by the Prosecution.  You can cross-examine the witness later

21     on.

22             Mr. Nicholls, please go on.

23             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.

24             The gym was packed and the witness and the other prisoners had to

25     sit closely packed together as it became full.  It was very hot that --

Page 1291

 1     on 14 July, and the prisoners were given some water but not nearly enough

 2     water for everybody, and they were very thirsty.

 3             From the time of his detention in Sandici meadow and up until his

 4     eventual escape, the witness was given some water on different occasions

 5     but no food.  And the witness observed that none of the other prisoners

 6     were given food and none of the ill or wounded were given medical care.

 7     Also, the witness observed that at no time were the prisoners registered,

 8     listed, or counted by their captors.

 9             They remained in the Orahovac school for a few hours and

10     sometimes the guards would fire shots into the walls and ceiling to keep

11     the prisoners quiet.  Some officers arrived at the school and the

12     prisoners were ordered to stand up in rows and face one end of the gym,

13     and it was about this time that one of the prisoners objected and said

14     that these men should not be killed.  Guards took this prisoner outside

15     and a shot was fired that the witness heard, and the man did not come

16     back.  Then another prisoner was taken out and again a shot was heard.

17     Again, the prisoner did not come back.

18             Once the officers left, the soldiers began taking prisoners in

19     groups through a small room next to the gym where they were given a cup

20     of water by a female soldier, blindfolded, taken outside and placed in

21     TAM trucks.  And the witness estimates that approximately 30 prisoners

22     could fit in the back of one of these TAM trucks.

23             Prisoners were told that they were being taken to a camp in

24     Bijeljina as they got on the trucks.  However, the trucks drove just a

25     very short distance to a field in Orahovac and the prisoners were told

Page 1292

 1     then to get off the trucks.  The men were lined up in rows and shot.  The

 2     witness managed to survive by feigning death as he lay under the body of

 3     another victim.  And the witness observed that approximately every

 4     10 to 15 minutes a new truck full of prisoners would arrive, and those

 5     prisoners would be killed in the same manner.

 6             These killings continued for hours.  After nightfall, a loader

 7     truck arrived with its lights on, and as it continued, the witness lay

 8     still and heard some of the executioners speaking and calling to one

 9     another, and they called their leader by name.  The witness recognised

10     the first name and the distinctive voice of this leader of the

11     executioners as a long-time co-worker who he knew was from the village of

12     Orahovac.  The leader told the other soldiers to collect ammunition and

13     go to a nearby field to continue killing people.  The soldiers then left

14     and continued killing prisoners at a nearby field.

15             Later that night while the soldiers were distracted, the witness

16     was able to escape into the woods.  As he ran away, he got turned around

17     at one point and found himself back at the killing site, and he saw that

18     most of the field was covered in bodies.  He also noticed that not all of

19     the prisoners were dead.  He could hear sounds coming from a wounded man.

20             After several very difficult days of -- as he describes it, of

21     moving and hiding, he managed to reach safety in Muslim-held territory.

22             That's the end of the summary.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

24             MR. NICHOLLS:

25        Q.   Now, sir, I have just very few questions for you, okay?

Page 1293

 1             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could we go into private session just for a short

 2     background question.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 4                           [Private session]

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17                           [Open session]

18             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session.

19             MR. NICHOLLS:

20        Q.   Now, sir, I'm going to ask you now just a -- a few questions

21     about the events of 11 July 1995, and about what happened to you and your

22     two brothers at that time.

23             Now, first of all, you've testified that it was on 11 July that

24     you and your brothers, and in fact the entire population, left

25     Srebrenica.  Could you tell the Chamber why was it that you decided to

Page 1294

 1     leave Srebrenica that day?  Why did you leave?

 2        A.   Well, we had to leave because the Serb forces threatened us,

 3     especially Radovan Karadzic.  One year previously he said he would take

 4     his revenge on the citizens of Srebrenica.

 5        Q.   Well, what were you concerned about would happen if you'd stayed,

 6     if you hadn't left 11 July?  Why exactly did you leave?

 7        A.   Well, we left because we were frightened, and the thing that we

 8     were frightened of happened to us en route.

 9        Q.   Now, without saying his name, one of your brothers, you

10     testified, went to Potocari and managed to leave safely.  Can you just

11     tell us very briefly how he managed to accomplish that, what he told you

12     about how he was able to leave Potocari?

13        A.   Well, when he reached Potocari, they had already begun separating

14     people, and a Serb soldier told him to jump up on the truck, and he

15     had -- he couldn't do that because he had crutches.  And then another one

16     told him to get into another bus, and he got into that and that's how he

17     managed to leave.

18        Q.   All right.

19             MR. NICHOLLS:  Now, Your Honours, if I may go into private

20     session just for a couple questions.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

22                           [Private session]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 1295

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 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24                           [Open session]

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're now in open session.

Page 1296

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 2             MR. NICHOLLS:

 3        Q.   Thank you, sir.  I have no further questions at this time for

 4     you.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Nicholls.

 6             MR. NICHOLLS:  And, Your Honours, I think if I understood your

 7     ruling before correctly, now is when I would tender the exhibits I have

 8     not shown the witness but that formed part of his testimony in the

 9     Popovic case.

10             JUDGE KWON:  I understand that those lists were provided to the

11     accused.

12             MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have any objections, Mr. Karadzic,

14     Mr. Robinson?  Who is going to deal with the objections?

15             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  In your order you indicated

16     that I would only intervene at the request of Mr. Karadzic.  So he will

17     be dealing with all of them unless he requests otherwise.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you very much.

19             MR. ROBINSON:  Thank you.  We don't have any objection,

20     Mr. President.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Thank you.  The Chamber also had the

22     opportunity to go through the list, and then all of them are relevant and

23     of probative value, and we find that all of them form indispensable and

24     inseparable part of the evidence.  As such we admit them all.

25             Could we give the -- there are five items.  We can give the

Page 1297

 1     exhibit number right now.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 02869 will be Exhibit P770;

 3     65 ter number 21964 will be Exhibit P771; 65 ter number 2870 will be

 4     Exhibit P772; 65 ter number 02872 will be Exhibit P773; and 65 ter number

 5     02875 will be Exhibit P774.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 7             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honours, there is one more, which is not as

 8     important.  It's 65 ter number 21965.  That was simply the pseudonym

 9     sheet in the prior testimony.  It forms part of the record.

10             JUDGE KWON:  21965.

11             MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes.

12             JUDGE KWON:  But hasn't been assigned a separate number yet.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour, that will be Exhibit P775,

14     under seal.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Now, Mr. Karadzic, it's for you to

16     cross-examine this witness, but please bear in mind that this witness's

17     identity is protected.  Whenever there's a danger of revealing the

18     identity of the witness, you should ask to go into private session.  Do

19     you understand?

20             With that caveat, let's start.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.  I

22     would just like to say one thing before I start with my cross-examination

23     and also draw your attention to what Madam Uertz-Retzlaff said at a

24     Status Conference of the 17th of August, 2009.  This is on page 156,

25     where she said --

Page 1298

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, instead of giving submissions, I would

 2     like you to start your questioning.  Just put your questions to the

 3     witness.  Thank you.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All I wanted to say was that the

 5     Srebrenica part as it relates to 95 was something that we're a little

 6     surprised by.  We thought we would be dealing with that later, but that's

 7     all I wanted to say.

 8                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Witness, good afternoon.

10        A.   Good afternoon.

11        Q.   You have provided five statements so far?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   You participated in two reports, and you testified four times.

14        A.   Five times.

15        Q.   Five times.

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Thank you.  So could we say -- of course this was strenuous, but

18     could we say that you were a successful witness and that perhaps you're

19     even proud of your achievement?

20        A.   Yes, I am a successful witness, but let me tell you the truth.

21     It's not my desire to be a successful witness and to speak lies.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Do you live now where you used to live before?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   You live in the federation?

25        A.   No.

Page 1299

 1        Q.   You don't live in Republika Srpska?

 2        A.   No.

 3             MR. NICHOLLS:  Objection.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Now I would like to know, Witness --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

 7             MR. NICHOLLS:  Well, twofold.  One, going into an inquiry in

 8     public session of where a protected witness lives is heading for trouble;

 9     and two, it's irrelevant.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Let's move on.

11             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, one cautionary note.  I can see it

12     coming, and that is the pace of the question and answer and the need for

13     a pause between question and answer when the witnesses are speaking the

14     same language.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you for your warning.

16             Let's proceed.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I would rather say that

18     I asked him where he did not live instead of where he does live, but

19     anyway.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Witness, what I'm interested in is this:  Why did you seek

22     protective measures if you are a successful witness -- I don't want to

23     say that you're a favourite witness of the Prosecution, because they

24     don't like that, but why did you do such a big job?

25        A.   Well, you know why.  Because there are people who share your

Page 1300

 1     beliefs, who would like to get rid of me.  So I don't want everybody to

 2     know where I live for that reason.  I'm speaking, and I do not wish to

 3     say one more word more than is absolutely necessary.

 4        Q.   Witness, do you know any witnesses who my supporters executed?

 5        A.   I don't know, but I'm afraid for myself.  I'm not really

 6     interested too much about others.  I'm only speaking about myself.

 7             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honour, I object to this whole line of why

 8     the witness has sought protective measures.  He's had them granted in

 9     several -- in all the prior case because the Trial Chambers in those

10     cases have found that they were justified.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I let it go because to a certain extent you may

12     ask some questions, but let's move on your topic.  But before we go -- go

13     any further, sir, could you bear in mind the interpreters who are

14     interpreting your questions and answers.  So could you wait a little bit,

15     put a pause after the question and --

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.  Very well.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Let's move on to your topic, Mr. Karadzic.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             MR. KARADZIC:  [Interpretation]

20        Q.   You lived and worked in Belgrade more than 18 years; is that

21     right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   How often did you go back to your birthplace?

24        A.   I would go back every week or every other week depending on when

25     I had my Saturdays free.  That's when I would go.

Page 1301

 1        Q.   And you would spend a weekend there; is that right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Did you see your compatriots in Belgrade?

 4        A.   What do you mean "compatriots"?  Who are my compatriots, Serbs or

 5     Croats?  We were all compatriots, Bosniaks, Croats.

 6        Q.   I'm thinking of Bosniaks with the same surname as yours.

 7        A.   Well, there are people with my surname all over Bosnia and

 8     Herzegovina.

 9        Q.   Well, we are going to show this later on the screen, exactly what

10     I'm thinking of, but tell me, did you follow the events in Bosnia from

11     Belgrade?

12        A.   I came only when the war was beginning in Bijeljina.  The war

13     hadn't started in other places yet.

14        Q.   Thank you.  You came on the 3rd of April; is that right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Why did you come?

17        A.   Well, it was the Bajram holiday then.

18        Q.   Right.  And did you know about the political events and the

19     tensions and the course of events in Bosnia?  Were you following that

20     from Belgrade?

21        A.   Well, no, we didn't really know all that much in Belgrade.

22        Q.   You didn't come to defend your village, did you?

23        A.   It was Bajram.  And to tell you the truth, it was -- I do have

24     the right to defend my village.  Every citizen has the right to defend

25     his village and his country, Mr. Karadzic.  A Serb, a Croat, a Gypsy,

Page 1302

 1     they're all duty-bound to defend Bosnia and Herzegovina and not to

 2     ethnically cleanse it of one people.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  And who would you defend Kamenica from?

 4        A.   From whoever attacked it, whether it was a Muslim, Croat, a Serb.

 5     You defend your country from any enemy.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Sir, I understand how you feel, but could you calm

 7     down a bit, and if you need some time, you can take a rest.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not a problem about a rest.

 9     It's a matter of the question.  One would defend one's country from any

10     attack, regardless of ethnicity.  Fikret Abdic was a Bosniak and our

11     people had to defend themselves from them because he was killing his own

12     people.  Whoever attacks the country should be somebody to defend oneself

13     from.

14             MR. KARADZIC:  [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, Mr. Karadzic.

17             Please understand the Defence is entitled to ask you questions.

18     So try to answer as far as you can.  Just -- if you don't know, you can

19     say you don't know, but --

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that that is

21     the answer.  You defend your country from the enemy, whether it's an

22     enemy from within or from outside.  That is irrelevant.

23             JUDGE KWON:  And one further request is for the benefit of the

24     Chamber and the interpreters, just wait a little bit after the question

25     before you start your answer.

Page 1303

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.  All right.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Let's proceed.

 3             MR. KARADZIC:  [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Witness, sir, do you know that according to the Cutileiro Plan,

 5     your area was supposed to be part of the Muslim entity?  It was supposed

 6     to be a Muslim canton?

 7        A.   I don't know that.  If anybody among the politicians knew that,

 8     that's all right, but don't ask me that.  I'm not a politician.

 9        Q.   But do you believe that your politicians knew that, because they

10     accepted that agreement?

11        A.   I don't know.  I don't think that they did, but I don't know.  I

12     really couldn't say anything about that.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please look at Cutileiro's

14     map now.  If it's not in e-court, perhaps we can look at it on the ELMO.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, if you are going to show on the map

16     the region where the witness is from, we need to go into private session,

17     in my opinion.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I think that

19     Cutileiro's map is something that we're all familiar with.  It's a

20     generally known matter.  This is 1D883.  00883; is that right?  It

21     doesn't have to be shown to the public.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to show the witness

24     what the map looks like.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.  Please don't show it to

Page 1304

 1     me.  You don't have to show it to me.  I don't accept that.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  I think we have the map before us on the monitor.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't accept that at all.  If

 4     this is something that you divided together with Cutileiro, we did not

 5     participate in that.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Witness, can you tell us where your hometown is here?

 8        A.   Well, my hometown is the whole of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  I

 9     don't need you to draw any maps.  There are these things that Cutileiro

10     sketched out and you are sticking to that without yielding.

11        Q.   Sir, we're not the only people in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

12             Is Rastosnica yours?

13        A.   Well, Rastosnica is everybody's.  If it's a Muslim village, it's

14     a Muslim village; if it's a Serb village, it's a Serb village.  Nobody

15     took any villages from anybody.  You wanted to drive us out of Bosnia and

16     Herzegovina and to create an ethnically pure territory.  You didn't want

17     to have us in Bosnia and Herzegovina any longer.  Well, you don't need to

18     go on about that now.  Just let me be.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Witness, please calm down.  Just answer the

20     question.

21             Mr. Karadzic, what the witness is saying is that --

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I lived in Bosnia

23     and Herzegovina from the 3rd of April, 1992.  I know the situation.  They

24     wanted to drive us out, even had -- if we had given them the whole of

25     Bosnia and Herzegovina, they wanted it to be empty of all Muslims and

Page 1305

 1     Croats.  They only wanted the Serbs there.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   We're going to prove the opposite, but what I'm asking you now is

 4     to show us where your hometown is --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  No, no, no.  Just stop --

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know where my hometown is.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You can remove this from the

 9     screen.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Witness, I would like you and ask again to just

11     answer the question.  That's the best way for you to assist the Chamber.

12             Mr. Karadzic, I don't see any point going over --

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't want to look

14     at any maps.  Please understand me.  Karadzic can look at maps.  I don't

15     need to look at maps.  I don't need a map.  We have a map of Bosnia and

16     Herzegovina in its internationally recognised borders.  We're not

17     interested in Republika Srpska or Herceg Bosna.  All we're interested is

18     BosniaBosnia is not Croat or Serb or Muslim only.  It belongs to all

19     of its citizens, but Karadzic would like to have Bosnia belong to only

20     one people.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Sir, as I told you, the Defence, the accused, is

22     entitled to put questions to you.  So if you do not know, you can say

23     simply you don't know, but please hear me out.  I was about to say

24     something to make it --

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I asked that he doesn't show me the

Page 1306

 1     map.  I don't recognise the map at all.  I'm not interested in the map at

 2     all.  If you're interested in the map, Mr. President, sir, please go

 3     ahead.  I will not disrupt that.  If I had some sort of scarf or

 4     something, I would cover the screen so I don't have to look at this map.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  I don't see any point going over the

 6     question of map when the witness has already said he didn't know anything

 7     about Cutileiro's map.  You can tender this evidence on a separate

 8     occasion or through a separate proceedings.  I would like you to move on

 9     to the next topic, Mr. Karadzic.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Excellency, I will move

11     on.  The point is, though, that his place of birth, we accepted that it

12     would not be in the Serbian canton.

13             JUDGE KWON:  You'll have -- you'll have opportunity to make your

14     submission.  Please concentrate on putting questions to the witness

15     instead of making submissions.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I would like to have

17     document 65 ter 19139 on the screen.  This is a Prosecution document.

18             It doesn't have to be broadcast to the public.  It can just be

19     restricted to the courtroom.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Sir, is this a map of your municipality?

22        A.   I'm not interested.  Well, let me just see.  My municipality of

23     Zvornik, I am a protected witness, but my municipality is the

24     municipality of Zvornik.  I was born there.  I grew up there.  I lived

25     there until I was 50 or 60 years old.  It cannot be yours.  It can only

Page 1307

 1     be my municipality.  I'm sorry, I don't see which municipality this is

 2     now.

 3        Q.   Well, it's written there for you at the top.

 4        A.   Yes.  Yes.  If it is.  I mean, it is the Zvornik municipality.

 5        Q.   Can you indicate on the south the area which we're interested in?

 6        A.   I'm not interested.  You were interested in everything, for God's

 7     sake, not one thing.  You were interested in everything.  What are you

 8     saying?  You were interested in everything.  You just wanted no Bosniaks

 9     there.

10        Q.   Witness, sir, you testified five times, and --

11             JUDGE MORRISON:  Dr. Karadzic, I'm sorry to interrupt you for a

12     moment.

13             The question that you must address your mind to, Mr. Witness, is

14     this, that we are the ones, the Judges, who need this information.

15     Whether you are interested or not interested is a matter for you, but

16     you've got to understand that we are interested.  We need to know these

17     things in order to make a proper determination of the case.  So I

18     understand that this is a difficult exercise for you, but please bear in

19     mind that this is information which we need to conduct this case fairly

20     and properly.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the entire

22     municipality of Zvornik was ethnically cleansed.  It was ethnically

23     cleansed.  I don't think that one single Bosniak remained to live in the

24     entire municipality of Zvornik.  It's not that he was interested in one

25     or the other part of the municipality.  He was interested in the whole of

Page 1308

 1     the municipality, one large area, Djulici, Potocari.  I have a married

 2     sister there.

 3             Over 700 people there submitted or handed over their weapons

 4     saying, "We don't want war."  They were handing over keys of their car

 5     saying, "We don't want war."  The Serbian Army assembled everyone, women

 6     and children, in buses and trucks and sent them off to Tuzla.  Over

 7     700 people were executed.

 8             It was not -- nothing else was in his interest other than ethnic

 9     cleansing and war.  He was not interested in just one part of the Zvornik

10     municipality or another part.  He was interested in the entire

11     municipality.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Witness, you're a very important witness, and your testimony has

14     been incorporated into several judgments finding the accused guilty, so I

15     would like to hear your testimony, and the Prosecution can help you out,

16     but I would like the Registrar -- to ask the Registrar also to help the

17     witness use the electronic pen that he uses for the screen so that he can

18     draw on the map.

19        A.   I don't know anything about this map.  What do you want me to

20     tell you about this map?

21        Q.   Witness, it's not my map.  It's a Prosecution map, and it's a

22     geographical map, a normal one without any ethnic division.

23        A.   What do you want me to mark in here?

24             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Nicholls.

25             MR. NICHOLLS:  Sorry, Your Honours.  I think it might help if we

Page 1309

 1     knew exactly what -- what the question was, because I may have missed it,

 2     but there hasn't been a clear question about this map and what is asked.

 3     The only question was, "Can you indicate the southern area we're

 4     interested in," or something, but I think maybe if there's a very clear

 5     question, we can move on.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Could you answer the question, Mr. Karadzic.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I can't, Your Excellency,

 8     disclose my intentions to the Prosecution in advance.  I have to take the

 9     witness statements one by one.  Now, he lived in this area, he worked

10     there, and important events took place there until March 1993, and more

11     important and more intensive than the other part of his testimony.  So

12     this is where major events took place, and because of that, Mr. Nicholson

13     [sic] sought to introduce it into the Milosevic trial.

14             Now, I want us to establish where these places were, who lived in

15     them and what happened in them.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Serbs lived on the territory of

17     Bosnia and Herzegovina -- or, rather, Zvornik municipality, in their

18     villages.  The Bosniaks lived in their own villages.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   That's not my question, nor is that the answer that you should be

21     giving.  I would like us to focus on your testimony and the places you

22     mentioned in that testimony.

23        A.   No, I don't want to have anything to do with the map.  I don't

24     want to mark anything on the map.  You can ask me what happened where,

25     but -- and I'll tell you, but I don't want to have anything to do with

Page 1310

 1     the map.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the Prosecution instruct

 3     their witness as to his duties and assist him.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't need any assistance.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Sir, sir.  Sir, as Judge Morrison advised you, your

 6     answering the question is the best way to assist the Chamber to reach --

 7     to find the facts before -- in this case, so I don't find your

 8     non-cooperation very helpful.  So as far as you can, please try to answer

 9     the question.

10             Do you recognise where it is, that which appears before you?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.  I don't know this map, and

12     I would have to guess.  I don't want to do guesswork.  I know the

13     territory, but I'm not interested in the map at all.

14             JUDGE KWON:  So I take it that your answer is that you do not --

15     you cannot recognise what it is.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Anything he asks me I'll tell him,

17     but I have nothing to do with maps.  Nobody every showed me a map before.

18     I don't know what he wants to achieve with this map.

19             JUDGE KWON:  I think we can move on to -- to a different topic

20     apart from the map.  Please move on, Mr. Karadzic.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 1311

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17        A.   Well, they're still living there.  How should I know?

18        Q.   Sir, you arrived on the 3rd of April, 1992.  Do you know what

19     happened, before you left, to the Serbs living in your village?

20        A.   Gone where?

21        Q.   Well, before you left your village.

22        A.   Well, they expelled us from their village first.  Do you know

23     about that?  And do you know about these 122 Serbs, they set fire to six

24     Muslims in a forge.  Do you know about that?  And they were neighbours.

25     They weren't people who came in from elsewhere.  They were neighbours.

Page 1312

 1        Q.   Witness, sir, would you please focus on what I'm asking you and

 2     the subject of your testimony.  Do you know what happened to those Serbs

 3     before the Serbs arrived in your village in March 1993, before that?

 4        A.   Well, what Serbs?  There are quite a lot of Serbs there.  What

 5     Serbs?

 6        Q.   With all the Serbs in your village, to all the Serbs in your

 7     village?

 8        A.   I don't know.  The minority left, and the majority, well, nobody

 9     touched them at all.

10        Q.   Were there any Serbs --

11             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Nicholls.

12             MR. NICHOLLS:  I'm sorry to interrupt.  Your Honours, just out of

13     an abundance of caution, I think we might need a redaction on page 29,

14     lines 14 to 18, because of the precise description.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Let's move on.

16             Please put your question again, Mr. Karadzic.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Witness, how many Serbs were there in your two villages when the

19     Serb army entered those villages?

20        A.   When the Serb army entered those villages, there were very few

21     Serbs there, none at all.

22        Q.   And where were they?

23        A.   How should I know?  Zvornik?  I don't know where they went.

24        Q.   And in the village where there were more Serbs, 301?

25        A.   Well, they were all there.

Page 1313

 1        Q.   You say they were all there?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  You mentioned two brothers, and you had a

 4     third brother as well, but you didn't mention him afterwards.

 5        A.   That's right.

 6        Q.   Don't tell us his name, but could you tell us what happened to

 7     him?

 8        A.   He was killed.

 9        Q.   When?

10        A.   In 1992.

11        Q.   Where was he killed?

12        A.   In Karlovac.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness repeat the place name.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   How did he die?

16        A.   He was killed by a Serb soldier.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Witness, could you repeat the place where your

18     brother was killed.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you know what, as I'm a

20     protected witness, I -- it slipped out.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Well, you can tell us about your village.  This isn't being

23     broadcast.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Let me check what I said.

25             Mr. Nicholls, do we need to go into private session in order to

Page 1314

 1     hear where his brother was killed?

 2             MR. NICHOLLS:  I don't think so, Your Honour.  Just for the name

 3     of the -- maybe it would be best if -- I'm not sure, so maybe it would be

 4     best.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  So let's go into private session briefly.

 6                           [Private session]

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11                           [Open session]

12             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Yes.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  We're now in open session, Your Honours.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Witness, when did that happen and under what circumstances?

16        A.   Are we in private session?

17        Q.   Just tell me where there was fighting, and was he a sehid or,

18     rather, a fighter?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Now, that first brother of yours, does he have any

21     children?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Boys?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Can you tell us the names of his sons?

Page 1315

 1        A.   No, I can't.  He just has one son, just one child, a son.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, might we go into

 3     private session just for a second to hear the name of the man's son.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 5                           [Private session]

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21                           [Open session]

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Please continue.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   You said in your statements that your family left before you to

25     Tuzla.

Page 1316

 1        A.   My family did leave and go to Tuzla, because -- was it on the

 2     30th or 31st of January, 1993?  Not a long time before me, just a

 3     fortnight before or thereabouts, because we had to move.

 4        Q.   And where were the Serbs then in relation to your village, the

 5     Serb army, I mean.

 6        A.   At the time, the Serbs called upon the people to move out of our

 7     village, and people escorted women and children, elderly persons so that

 8     more people left, and we had to withdraw and move towards Konjevic Polje

 9     and so on.

10        Q.   And I say, Mr. Witness, that this was a planned, organised

11     evacuation of civilians from your region and from your villages which was

12     carried out by your army, the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I put that to

13     you.  What you have to say to that?

14        A.   No, certainly not.  In 1992, the Serb army moved upon us, set

15     fire to our houses, destroyed our mosques.  There were four mosques in

16     the village.  And we all moved out.  Our families were with us, and we

17     went to the neighbouring municipality.  Just a small hamlet was left with

18     just six or seven houses, and the people remained in those households,

19     but the women and children had to be evacuated.

20             Now, after that, we had to organise ourselves to send -- to expel

21     the Serbs from our territory.

22        Q.   Thank you.  But would you please stick to answering my questions,

23     please.

24             You didn't leave with them, and you didn't go to Tuzla.  Why?

25        A.   Well, here's why:  I always thought -- I was wondering what

Page 1317

 1     happened to the people when the women and children were arrested.  A lot

 2     of young girls and women were raped, so heaven forbid that my children

 3     should suffer the same fate, and I have two daughters and a son, and I

 4     always wondered what would happen if my daughter was killed.  I would

 5     bury her and move on.  God forbid that my child should be raped.  And

 6     that did happen.  Women and mothers and girls were raped -- or, rather,

 7     girls were raped before their mother's eyes.  And that's why I didn't

 8     dare leave.  I wanted them to go, and I would await my fate.

 9        Q.   Wasn't it perhaps because you were necessary as a soldier, and

10     then the army evacuated over 7.000 civilians in order to be better able

11     to fight and you stayed on to fight?  Wasn't that the case?

12        A.   No.  We had men, but we didn't have any weapons.  All we had were

13     our bare chests so that others could attack us with howitzers, mortars,

14     and so on.  Had we had weapons, we wouldn't have suffered the fate that

15     we did.

16        Q.   But you were a soldier of the BH Army; isn't that right?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Did you have any cold weapons?

19        A.   What do you mean?  You mean a stick, a pole?  Huh.  A rifle?  You

20     know what you mean by cold weapons?  Well, your rifle was a cold weapon

21     if you didn't have any ammunition.

22        Q.   Witness, we will put to you documents from your command.  You

23     previously omitted to say that you were a soldier of the BH Army.  Today

24     you have confirmed that.

25        A.   I never denied that.  I always said that I was a soldier.  I was

Page 1318

 1     a JNA soldier, and I was also the other soldier.  Well, not a -- not a

 2     soldier, really, because we didn't have any weapons.  I had to just

 3     replace a colleague and do his shift, take up a colleague's shift, that

 4     kind of thing.

 5        Q.   In your statements it says that you were not a soldier.  Then it

 6     says that you were a soldier, then again that you weren't a soldier, and

 7     we can see that from your various statements, and we see that you said

 8     that you were a member of the Territorial Defence, although the

 9     Territorial Defence, in mid-April 1992, also became a part of the

10     BH Army.  Isn't that right?

11        A.   While I was in my village, I was a member of the TO, the

12     Territorial Defence.  Afterwards, when I went to Srebrenica, I was no

13     longer a -- I was not a soldier.  That's what I meant when I said I

14     wasn't a soldier.

15             Now, when I returned to free territory again, everybody tried to

16     persuade me not to be a soldier, but I wanted to.  But while that

17     discussion was going on, the war ended, so I didn't have the right to

18     become a soldier after that.

19        Q.   Thank you.  So you deny that your army had organised the

20     evacuation of the civilians.

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   You mean you don't deny it or you do?

23        A.   No, what you say is not true.  The people were lacking food.

24     They couldn't stay there.  You know when your house is burnt, well, we

25     didn't even have one nail to take out of the ashes and use it.

Page 1319

 1             In 1992, at the beginning of April, you cut our electricity

 2     supply off.  We had no communication with the town so we had to leave.

 3     The food had been burnt in the houses that were set fire to, so the

 4     people had to leave in order to find food.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Let me just remind you, Witness.  Did you receive

 6     your electricity from the Visegrad electric power plant?

 7        A.   No.  I don't know where we got our electricity from, but I think

 8     we got it from Zalukovik, which belonged to Vlasenica or wherever.

 9        Q.   But, sir, that whole area received electricity from Visegrad

10     through the distribution centre that went through Srebrenica, and I

11     assert that the transmission system was disabled by Oric's army in

12     Srebrenica until the end of the war and that is why you didn't have

13     electricity.

14        A.   No, no.  At the beginning of the war you personally ordered, I

15     don't know if it was you or the people in Zvornik or wherever, ordered

16     that our electricity be switched off.  Even without any war yet starting

17     in our area we were left without electricity.

18        Q.   And how exactly did I order that?

19        A.   Well, of course, you were the number one person.  You always go

20     to the head and ask.  You never ask the feet for permission.

21        Q.   Witness, if you say that I was the one who ordered that, I have

22     to get you to be more specific about that.  How and when did I make that

23     order?

24             JUDGE KWON:  What is your next -- let's move on to your next

25     question, Mr. Karadzic.

Page 1320

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   And this other brother of yours, was he also a soldier?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Was he a cook?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Who did he cook for?

 7        A.   He cooked for himself.

 8        Q.   Did he cook for the army?

 9        A.   No.  They had an observation post in Slatina.  UNPROFOR was there

10     as well.  They were just observing there a little bit the movement of the

11     Serbs.  The line was quite close, so he was cooking for those who were at

12     the observation post.  I mean, he cooked the whole time.  He was a baker

13     by trade.

14        Q.   How many fighters from your village joined the unit in

15     Srebrenica?

16        A.   I don't know how many joined.  When we came to Srebrenica, that

17     was when the demilitarisation agreement was signed, so there was nothing

18     to join, in any case.

19        Q.   If I were to say that 500 fighters joined from your village alone

20     and significantly strengthen Naser Oric's forces in Srebrenica, what

21     would you say to that?

22        A.   No, definitely not.  There weren't that many.  There weren't that

23     many citizens from our municipality altogether.

24        Q.   Your municipality.

25        A.   Yes, from my municipality.  I'm not talking about Srebrenica.

Page 1321

 1     Srebrenica is something else.

 2        Q.   In your estimate, how many people, soldiers and civilians, came

 3     to Srebrenica from your municipality in 1993?

 4        A.   As I said, I don't know how many of them came.  Many of them did

 5     come, but when the convoys took the women and children out, most of the

 6     women and children left.  All those who were left were the elderly and

 7     able-bodied men.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  I would now like to deal a little bit with what was

 9     happening in your municipality -- or, rather, first of all, in your

10     village.  Can we please --

11             JUDGE KWON:  When we are moving to a separate topic, I'm minded

12     to take a break now.  So while the -- the witness can be excused from the

13     room.  Would the curtain be drawn.  I would allow the accused to raise

14     what he meant to raise with the Chamber.

15             Sir, we are going to have a break for 25 minutes.  We will be --

16     we will have a break for 25 minutes.  We will adjourn -- we will resume

17     at 4.00.  So you may be free to go, to take a rest.

18                           [The witness stands down]

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, I would like to draw

21     your attention to what was said at the conference of the

22     17th of September -- August, 2009.  On page 156, when Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff

23     said, I'm reading from the middle:

24             "[In English] And I also can say that the Srebrenica part of the

25     case will definitely not -- will definitely be at the end of the

Page 1322

 1     Prosecution case, so there is no need to have it all ready by the

 2     beginning of trial."

 3             [Interpretation] That is why I would kindly ask about the second

 4     part of the testimony of this witness that relates to 1995.  We summoned

 5     the witness again when Srebrenica will be the topic.  I will be ready to

 6     deal with 1993, and we can complete that today, though.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger, you may have a say to this.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, I have to question whether there's any

 9     genuine confusion here.  I think it was apparent to everyone that that

10     was a reference to the general procedures, the general approach to the

11     case.  The fact that issues -- I don't remember the precise context, but

12     if I -- my recollection is that that had to do with whether or not one

13     particular issue had to be disposed of by a particular time.

14     Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff was indicating that the bulk of the Srebrenica

15     presentation would be toward the latter part of the case and that could

16     be raised then.  It was anything but a reference to the evidence of this

17     particular witness, which has been noticed for a long time, and it's been

18     very clear what this witness's testimony would be.  That reference at the

19     Status Conference in no way precludes the full presentation of this

20     witness's evidence or in any way prejudices the Defence.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Could the Chamber be advised as to the date when it

22     was noted to the accused that this witness is coming as the third

23     witness.

24             MR. ROBINSON:  It was around the 9th of October, Mr. President.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Last year.  Thank you very much.

Page 1323

 1             We will rise.  We will have a break for 25 minutes.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Before we leave, while the witness

 3     is still out, I just wanted to mention two or three other things that you

 4     promised that I would be given the opportunity to bring up.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Regarding cross-examination and

 7     examination-in-chief that relates to 1995, this is already done through

 8     testimony, statements, adjudicated facts, and so on, but we need to be

 9     familiar with the entire Srebrenica case that relates to 1995.  Since we

10     were not granted the time we asked for to prepare, and since we relied by

11     what Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff said, and in view of our priorities and

12     resources, we left the section relating to Srebrenica '95 for later.

13     This is what I wanted to state briefly.

14             The demands of the courtroom are quite substantial, the pace and

15     some other factors, too, so I'm afraid the other services are not

16     actually able to follow all of that.  For now I would just like to refer

17     to the matter of translation.  I must say that I have engaged my entire

18     family all the way to Canada to translate for me, because I don't expect

19     the documents to be translated on time.  I don't have such large

20     resources.  My family's translating for me for free.  I don't have enough

21     funds to pay for this service.  The Tribunal services should be able to

22     keep up with this pace.  And I'm doing all I can in order to make the

23     administration of international justice possible, and I'm not trying to

24     obstruct this administration in any way.

25             Should I put down in writing what I asked for last time, and that

Page 1324

 1     is to ask for one more person to assist, because Mr. Tieger has as many

 2     as he wants, and they change.  So also do I need to write my request to

 3     receive statements in Serbian?  I don't receive transcripts.  My

 4     associates out in the field or many of them don't speak English, so this

 5     would be of help to us.  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  We'll come to that after the break.  Twenty-five

 7     minutes.

 8                           --- Recess taken at 3.40 p.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 4.11 p.m.

10             JUDGE KWON:  During the break the Chamber was able to locate the

11     submission Madam Uertz-Retzlaff made during that Status Conference, which

12     reads like this:

13             "Perhaps one point we would appreciate a decision on the 92 bis

14     motion for the expert would be postponed to a later date until everything

15     is ready, and I also can say that Srebrenica part of the case will

16     definitely not -- will definitely be at the end of the Prosecution case,

17     so there's no need to have it all ready by the beginning of the trial."

18             That's what she said.  Given this statement, I tend to agree that

19     the accused and the Chamber was always led to believe by the Prosecution

20     that it would bring the Sarajevo component of its case first, then the

21     component dealing with the municipalities, and the Srebrenica component

22     last.

23             Mr. Karadzic was told in the context of denying his request --

24     request for more preparation time that he didn't need to prepare

25     everything before the trial started, and on my part, I think it's fair

Page 1325

 1     that he would have been focusing his preparation on preparing to

 2     cross-examine the Sarajevo witnesses.  So even if he has known that this

 3     witness, KDZ064, would come and talk about Srebrenica since October, he

 4     would still be justified in saying that he was devoting his resources

 5     preparing for Sarajevo evidence first.

 6             That said -- yes?

 7             MR. TIEGER:  I'm sorry, Your Honour.  I presume the Court will

 8     give me an opportunity to amplify if -- before it renders any decision,

 9     but I know I interrupted the Court.  I misunderstood the pause to be a

10     completion.

11             JUDGE KWON:  So I will continue.  Thank you.

12             So that said, while it is very -- the Chamber is disappointed by

13     the practice of the Prosecution for not sticking to the -- its earlier

14     representation that Sarajevo would come first and then -- but having said

15     that, given that witness scheduling is a -- is not a matter of exact

16     science and there always has to be some flexibility, so the Chamber is of

17     the view that Mr. Karadzic should continue to cross-examine this witness,

18     and later on, should he find material during his further preparation to

19     address the Srebrenica component of the Prosecution case, then he can

20     always submit a reasoned application to recall this witness for further

21     cross-examination should he consider it to be necessary.

22             So with that, I would like you to continue your

23     cross-examination, including the '95 Srebrenica component of the case.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE KWON:  Did you have anything to --

Page 1326

 1             MR. TIEGER:  I did, Your Honour.  I wanted to raise another

 2     issue, but if I may respond to the comments of the Court.

 3             I want to stress that there was anything but an intentional

 4     effort either to mislead the Court or the Defence, and I maintain that

 5     the Prosecution has not departed from what it communicated to the Court,

 6     and that is that the Srebrenica component would come at the latter part

 7     of the case.

 8             The question that arose in the context of the 65 ter was whether

 9     it was necessary to deal with a particular specific issue related to the

10     Srebrenica component.  At that time, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff indicated that

11     that issue would not be overcome by events because the component part of

12     the case, the bulk of the presentation of the evidence related to

13     Srebrenica, was going to -- was not going to come at the beginning of the

14     case.  So that specific issue did not need to be resolved.

15             I believe that everyone present at the 65 ter conference at that

16     point understood that, and I think our noticing of the witnesses along

17     with the information presented in connection with what the witness would

18     be testifying to provided ample notice, as I indicated before.  And I

19     appreciate the Court's ruling in light of that, but I need to stress this

20     is not a situation where we simply indicate we'll have a witness and

21     that's all the information provided.  Virtually everything to which the

22     witness was expected to testify was provided well, well in advance.

23             The second thing is I wanted to dispatch one --

24             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger, I'm not sure whether I understood you in

25     full.  What did you mean by "the context," "in the context of the Rule

Page 1327

 1     65 ter"?

 2             MR. TIEGER:  There was a very limited issue raised:  Was it

 3     necessary to deal with this expert issue now, or -- because the -- that

 4     component part of the case would be over by the time it got dealt with.

 5     It needed to be dealt with by the beginning of the case when -- well, by

 6     the beginning of the case was the issue then.  And because it relates to

 7     the overall presentation of the evidence, because the Defence presumably

 8     wants to deal with that issue before the component part of the case is

 9     completed, that issue was raised.  It has very little, if anything, to do

10     with this particular witness who is a percipient witness to the events he

11     experienced and observed.

12             So what was communicated about the order of presentation of the

13     case was related to the issue raised at the 65 ter conference at that

14     moment, and that is, was there any problem with the timing of dealing

15     with this expert issue given the -- the general order in which the case

16     would be presented, and I think it's fair to say that there was not and

17     is not.

18             JUDGE KWON:  I don't --

19             MR. TIEGER:  So what I'm suggesting is there was never a

20     preparation that no evidence whatsoever with relation to Srebrenica would

21     be presented prior to a date -- a particular date.  It was that the case

22     would be presented in broad components, and that was the general order in

23     which it would be presented.

24             JUDGE KWON:  So let me be clear.  Has your plan to present the

25     Srebrenica component of evidence at the later stage been changed?

Page 1328

 1             MR. TIEGER:  No.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  And still -- but still you are minded to introduce

 3     some of the components of the Srebrenica case in the early stage?

 4             MR. TIEGER:  As we indicated in the pre-trial brief and in the

 5     opening statement, there's clearly a relationship between all components

 6     of the case.  Therefore, we are providing the Court at the outset of the

 7     case with evidence concerning all the components, as the Court can see,

 8     so that at least the Court will be -- will have a sufficient initial

 9     understanding of the inter-relationship between those component parts of

10     the case.  But our intention to focus on -- in general on the component

11     parts of the case in a particular order has not changed.

12             JUDGE KWON:  So for the benefit of the -- it will be for the

13     benefit of the Chamber as well if you stick to your original plan.

14             MR. TIEGER:  Understood, Your Honour, and I think the Court can

15     see how -- the extent to which the Prosecution has attempted to adhere to

16     the witness schedule that was provided last year as the case was

17     continued for various reasons.

18             JUDGE KWON:  So that said, that heard, I would encourage you

19     again to stick to your statements.

20             And then there's another matter you wanted to raise?

21             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.  The accused raised

22     again the issue of statements, and I think that was raised last week for

23     the first time when the accused said, as far as he remembered, the

24     decision regarding translations did not apply to what he called basic

25     statements.  And he said, "And if my understanding is correct," he'd ask

Page 1329

 1     that statements in contrast to transcripts be translated.  I just -- I

 2     want to alert the Court that the accused's understanding is not correct,

 3     and the decision of March 26th of last year on that issue explicitly

 4     embraced both statements and transcripts.  So that should dispatch that

 5     issue.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

 7             So the language issues, in the opinion of the Chamber, was dealt

 8     with in that decision and others.  So if you have something further, I

 9     would like you to put it in writing and file a motion before the Chamber.

10             And as to the translation and remuneration and staff issues,

11     that's for the Registry to deal with at the moment, and it is only when

12     the fairness of the trial is affected that Chamber could intervene.

13             That said, let us bring in the witness.  While the witness is

14     brought in, there's one further procedural matter, so when we go into or

15     out of -- come out of the private session, we need to put some pause

16     while -- because there is some lag in the French or other interpretation,

17     in particular, French.  So at the last session, some confidential

18     information was broadcast when we -- while we were coming out of the

19     private session.

20             Yes, Mr. Tieger.

21             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Your Honour, and I appreciate that.  I

22     neglected to mention explicitly one thing, and perhaps because it's so

23     obvious, and that is that there are any number of witnesses whose

24     testimony encompasses a number of components of the case, and of course

25     they will appear, for example, in the early component, talking about all

Page 1330

 1     phases of what they observed, learned, and experienced.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  But it is not the case of this witness.

 3             MR. TIEGER:  This -- this witness, he's not one of those

 4     witnesses that I'm alluding to in that comment particularly, but as the

 5     Court has seen, this witness's evidence does embrace not only 1995 but

 6     other aspects of -- of the events as well.  But what I was referring to

 7     more are the -- our witnesses who come to testify about one component

 8     but -- in the context of one component but have significant evidence

 9     about other components as well.

10                           [The witness takes the stand]

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

12             Sir, make yourself comfortable.

13             Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may, I'd just like to say that

15     with a trial of this magnitude, we need a system.  We had Sanski Most.

16     We had Pale, part of Sarajevo, now we have Zvornik and Srebrenica, and

17     really, the absence of a system is felt, or chronology.  It makes it more

18     difficult.  The already difficult position of the Defence in terms of

19     resources and time.  That's what I wanted to say for now.

20             But secondly, I'd like to say that I'm a little worried with the

21     efforts made by the Prosecutor to ensure protective measures for

22     witnesses who are not victims.  This witness is not a victim.  This

23     witness was a fighter for the BH Army, and I'm not allowed to mention the

24     name of his village.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, who is not a victim?  Do you

Page 1331

 1     know my case at all, sir?

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm talking to the Trial Chamber

 3     now.  I apologise.  The two of us will discuss matters in due course.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, it's totally unacceptable that you

 5     challenge the protective measures which was recognised by this court

 6     decision.  There's other matters.  You can appeal such decisions, but

 7     saying such words in front of the witness is not a proper way of

 8     challenging.

 9             Please continue with your cross-examination.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I was thinking more

11     about what Mr. Tieger intimated as to the future, and it just so happened

12     that I mentioned this.  But I don't want to insult anybody, of course,

13     least of all the witness.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Witness, I put it to you that the organisation, paramilitary

16     organisation, secret organisation of the Muslims in Zvornik started in

17     early 1991 with the creation of a whole network of units, both at

18     municipal level and at regional level, for a number of neighbouring

19     municipalities.  What do you have to say to that?

20        A.   Well, what I have to say is this:  What you're saying is a

21     notorious untruth.  First of all, we didn't have anything to organise

22     ourselves with.  We didn't have Slobodan Milosevic behind us to send in

23     corps with tanks.  And I remember very well, Mr. Karadzic, when I arrived

24     from Belgrade to Karakaj, tanks were lined up.  I don't know how many

25     there were, 5, 10, 15, or how many, and all the barrels were trained on

Page 1332

 1     Zvornik.  Now, if we had those, that kind of weaponry, then I would

 2     acknowledge that was so, but it was certainly not the way you just put

 3     it.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Now, if I put to you, Witness, that the detachment in

 5     your village was called the 6th Detachment -- now, I can't say the name

 6     of the commander.  I can't utter the commander's name.  Anyway, that he

 7     was a hodza, that is to say, an Islamic clergyman.  Do you want to say

 8     that it wasn't that way?

 9        A.   No, it wasn't.  It wasn't.  He wasn't a hodza.

10        Q.   And if I put it to you and tell you that you had weapons, not

11     hunting weapons but automatic weapons which was purchased in different

12     ways, in an organised manner, and brought in to the entire municipality

13     and to your village as well, what do you have to say to that?

14        A.   Mr. Karadzic, we had a few weapons, but they -- two soldiers

15     arrested two of our men, and they handed over the little weapons that

16     they had, whether they had procured it legally or not.  Then those same

17     soldiers turned up and asked us to surrender our weapons, and we did that

18     too.  Let me tell you who we surrendered them to.  He didn't put his

19     first and last name but just his last name was Cecaric.  He was a warrant

20     officer, Cecaric, and his first name began with an A, and you can find

21     the man.  Whether he was Aleksandar or Andrija, but anyway, it was A.

22     Cecaric.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Now, as a soldier, did you have shifts?  Did you go

24     to the front line and then home after that, after doing your shift?

25        A.   Yes, yes.  We had to protect ourselves in the village.  We didn't

Page 1333

 1     have a line.  We just stood guard and watch over our village to prevent

 2     anybody from attacking us.

 3        Q.   And what about during the time of operations?  How long did your

 4     shifts last?

 5        A.   Well, a shift lasted about eight hours.

 6        Q.   That means that there were three shifts in one day; right?

 7        A.   Yes, of course.

 8        Q.   During the shifts did the soldiers take their weapons home or did

 9     they stay up at the line?

10        A.   No.  They would take them home and give them to the next man.  I

11     said we didn't have much weaponry.  Now, after that, when they started

12     taking our people away, arresting them, then all communication was

13     interrupted.  The Serbs were walking around.  There was no war.  The

14     Serbs started rounding up people, and there was no communication later

15     on, when people became more organised.

16        Q.   In the trial against President Milosevic, the Defence asked you

17     what you used to kill that many Serbs with, and your answer was -- what

18     was your answer?

19        A.   When that operation took place, they seized our -- or, rather, we

20     seized weapons from your soldiers.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Nicholls.

22             MR. NICHOLLS:  I didn't object before, Your Honour, but your

23     guidelines make clear that when citing a prior statement back to a

24     witness, the party is to give the page and line, some indication of where

25     this statement's from, and I would ask that the accused follow that

Page 1334

 1     guideline.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Could you bear that in mind,

 3     Mr. Karadzic.  Do you need reference as well?

 4             MR. NICHOLLS:  No, we can continue.  I just -- this is the second

 5     time, so in the future I would like references.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Agreed.  Thank you.

 7             Continue, Mr. Karadzic.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I am looking for that

 9     now, because this question was out of my order of questions, whether they

10     had weapons or not, but I will find the reference.  I'm looking for it,

11     for the statement and the particular reference.  I'll give it to you

12     later on.

13             Anyway, I'd like to call up now 640, 1D00640.  The next document,

14     please.  It's a Defence document, and we're going to tender it into

15     evidence.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Witness, while we're waiting for that come up, let me ask you

18     this:  Mr. Nicholls said that your family was forced out by the Serbs

19     from your village to Tuzla.

20        A.   Of course, because they would never have gone to Tuzla if the

21     situation wasn't like that.  First of all, you set fire to my house and

22     all the food I had in my house, and the children couldn't eat earth.  You

23     can eat everything else, but not earth.

24        Q.   Yes, thank you.  Now, may we turn to the second page of this

25     document, please.  But let's see what the heading is first.  It says:

Page 1335

 1             "The Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, report -- or, rather,

 2     Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Municipal Staff of the armed forces of

 3     Zvornik, report on the state, organisational, and formational structure

 4     and combat readiness of the units of the armed forces of Zvornik."

 5             It was drafted in Sapna on the 5th of November, 1992.  Do you

 6     agree with that?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   You don't agree?

 9        A.   No.  It wasn't drafted in Sapna.  We had no communication with

10     Sapna at all.

11        Q.   But the staff was there.

12        A.   No, no.  We were -- Sapna is further than Zvornik.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May we look at page 2 of that

14     document, please.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   It's the second marked paragraph, where it says, "The defence of

17     Kula Grad," in English.  That paragraph.  It's the fourth paragraph:

18             "The defence of Kula Grad, from the 9th to the 26th of April, was

19     carried out while the JNA was still the legal armed force in the region

20     of Tuzla, when the state of Bosnia and Herzegovina had still not named an

21     aggressor, and was not yet organised or ready to conduct a defensive and

22     liberating war.  At that time, Kula Grad was the symbol of

23     BH resistance ... Kula Grad showed that resistance was possible," and so

24     on and so forth.

25        A.   Well, it had to defend itself.  There's no question about that.

Page 1336

 1        Q.   But the point here is that the JNA was the legal armed force at

 2     the time and that your commanders knew that full well.

 3        A.   Mr. Karadzic, from 1990 onwards, there was no JNA.  It could only

 4     have been the Serb army.  I served the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and we

 5     would salute this way, like this.

 6             In 1990, the war still hadn't broken out and we were passing by

 7     soldiers, and this is the sign, Mr. Karadzic, they made in salute.  The

 8     Yugoslav Army never saluted in this way.  This is how we saluted.  This

 9     is how I saluted as a JNA soldier.  So after the 1990s, don't mention the

10     JNA.  The JNA dissolved as soon as the conflict broke out in Slovenia and

11     Croatia.

12        Q.   Thank you.  But let's not delve in politics.  We have a lot to

13     get through, and it would be better if we could get through it all today.

14     And we'll come to how this army became predominantly Serb, as you say.

15             Looking at the documents that we're going to see today, it is

16     clear that this is an order from your leadership, and I'd like you to

17     focus on the last paragraph on the first page.  In English it is:  "From

18     the beginning," the last paragraph just before page 2.  It says:

19             "From the beginning of the war to the present day, resistance in

20     the wider region of Kamenica was based on preparations carried out, the

21     awareness of the need for combat in the region cut off from the rest of

22     the liberated territories of the municipality, the headquarters of the

23     armed forces, and the leadership of the municipality.

24             "Under those conditions combat was carried out independently in

25     co-operation with the staffs and units of the armed forces of Vlasenica,

Page 1337

 1     Bratunac, Srebrenica, in the triangle of Kamenica-Cerska-Srebrenica.

 2     The" --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, I can feel the gasping of the

 4     interpreters.  Please slow down when you read out.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise.  Yes.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   "The inhabited parts of the area were independently held.  The

 8     roads from Mali Zvornik to Ljubovija and Zvornik to Drinjaca were

 9     controlled.

10             Mali Zvornik and Drinjaca in Serbia, right?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   So Serbia couldn't go from Mali Zvornik to Ljubovija on its own

13     territory?

14             THE INTERPRETER:  The witness's answer was yes.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Where could we do that?  Where

16     could we prevent Serbia from moving around its own territory?  Where?

17     Where were we able to do that?  Where you can see that?

18             My village was built up and cut off towards the Drina River.  We

19     were in the middle.  The others were up towards Sekovici.  We were

20     sandwiched between the two.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Thank you.  But let's stick to the document.  You have it before

23     you.  We're dealing with page 2 now.  At the top of page 2 in the Serbian

24     version.  Page 2 in the Serbian.  It's -- your command states that the

25     inhabited areas of the region were held and that the roads from Zvornik

Page 1338

 1     to Ljubovija and Zvornik to Drinjaca were controlled.  You didn't have --

 2     control it physically.  It can be controlled through firepower.

 3        A.   How was it controlled if Mali Zvornik is from the bridge running

 4     downwards towards Koviljaca?  It doesn't run down towards Ljubovija.

 5        Q.   Can you see the road from Drinjaca?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And what about from Kula Grad?

 8        A.   Well, Kula Grad was attacked at the very beginning in April.

 9     Kula Grad fell in April.  First of all, they didn't have any weapons for

10     them to be able to control it.

11        Q.   Witness, sir, I would kindly ask you to provide me with short

12     answers.  I'll ask my questions.  You give us your answers, and we'll get

13     through your testimony this week.

14             Your report says that they controlled the road as well as the

15     Zvornik-Drinjaca road, which is in Bosnia-Herzegovina; right?

16        A.   Oh, come on let's leave those stories, empty stories.

17        Q.   Well, you can tell your commander that.

18        A.   Leave those empty stories and rumours.  They're just rumours.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Nicholls.

20             MR. NICHOLLS:  Objection, Your Honour.  I do have an objection.

21     It's a small point.  This witness has explained what his role was

22     guarding his village.  To put to the witness that this is "your report"

23     and lump him in somehow with the author of this report or -- is wrong and

24     I think it's provocative.  It's not the witness's report and you can't

25     lump everybody together in that manner and say "your report."

Page 1339

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  I think the accused understood.

 2             Please go on.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I will be more precise.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   This is a report from the Muslim command, so that's the sense of

 6     it, and my question's along those lines.

 7             Now, in the next paragraph it says:

 8             "In extended co-operation, Magija's group ... on the 9th of July,

 9     1992, were introduced.  Kibe's group, Himzo's group, Nazif's group, on

10     the 27th of July, and some smaller group with ammunition and Medical

11     Corps material, sanitary materials."

12             Now focus on this part of the sentence:

13             "As well as the executed withdrawal of 7.500 civilians from the

14     first half of July to the first half of August."

15        A.   It is true that they pulled out the civilians.  That's right.

16     You're right there, because you forced them from Kula Grad, Snagovo,

17     Liplje, and all that general area.  You made the population flow into my

18     small, poor village with no communication, and they had to take those

19     people in, otherwise they would have died.

20        Q.   Thank you.  I'm just asking you if you see that sentence and that

21     it says that throughout the war, furthermore, that efforts were made,

22     through General Morillon and outside General Morillon, to have these

23     civilians evacuated from those areas.

24        A.   Well, let me tell you, sir.  We were very concerned about our

25     civilians, because the civilians were being killed by shells.  More

Page 1340

 1     civilians were killed by shells -- more children were killed by shells

 2     than bullets, because bullets couldn't reach long distances, whereas

 3     shells and grenades could.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  But would have they been getting killed if there were

 5     no fighting?

 6        A.   No.  Why were not -- they were not getting killed in 1992.  You

 7     could get killed in a traffic accident or a worker could fall from a

 8     building perhaps.

 9        Q.   All right.  I would like you to look at the paragraph beginning

10     with "Basis of successful resistance."  Let us see.  The grounds of the

11     successful resistance.  It is in English:

12             "The grounds of successful resistance were accredited to the

13     preparations undertaken several months before the war, which were thus

14     reflected in the effectiveness of a large part of the activists, the

15     organised arming, and resolve to offer resistance at any cost.  A

16     particular effect in the sustaining of the freedom of the territory was

17     created by the arrival and activity of Captain Hajrudin Mesic who had,

18     together with Captain Mehdin, Senad Hodzic and a smaller number of other

19     organisers of the resistance and the uprising, had managed to create a

20     sense of the need for armed resistance as well as the potential and the

21     effectiveness of freedom fighting.  Captain Hajra's group was the first

22     combat unit in this region."

23             Whose captains were these and where was this, in which area?

24        A.   In Zvornik.

25        Q.   Well, Zvornik is big.

Page 1341

 1        A.   Ask me about my area.  Don't ask me where Hajro Mesic was.  Had

 2     it not been for Hajro Mesic there would have been more, thousands more

 3     victims.  Had we not been stopping you, as evil as you were, not only

 4     would we have 200.000 dead, we would have had 5 -- half a million dead if

 5     we had not kept stopping you in your advance.

 6        Q.   Witness, sir, had Hajro Mesic not been there or that policy,

 7     Bosnia wouldn't be composed of three units now, and your village would

 8     now be in the Muslim area and nobody would have been killed.  Your

 9     village and your area would have been in the Muslim state entity.  This

10     is something that we had accepted in March 1992.  You convinced the

11     people that you should be ruling it over the Serbs, and Hajro Mesic and

12     others were preparing the war months in advance.  This is what I can

13     conclude from your sources, from Muslim sources.

14             My question was:  Whose captains were these captains?

15        A.   Just one moment.  Mr. Karadzic, had we not put up any resistance,

16     we would have had half a million casualties, perhaps 200.000, but even

17     more likely half a million.  You know what happened to the Srebrenica

18     population.  God forbid that there had been 300.000 citizens in

19     Srebrenica.  At least 100.000 of them would have been killed.  It was

20     only God's will, thanks to God's will that these 10 or 12 people had

21     survived in order to be able to tell their stories here.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Just -- Mr. Karadzic, this is not an occasion for

23     you to make a conclusion.  Just ask questions.  And I would like you to

24     move on to other issues, material issues.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.  I

Page 1342

 1     agree with you, but the witness is making statements of a political

 2     nature, implying some factual matters as well.  Less than 60.000 Muslims

 3     were killed.  They had 40.000 fighters killed.  All of this is different

 4     from what has been known so far, and that is why I am asking him to pay

 5     attention to the question.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Whose captains were these people before the war?

 8        A.   Mr. Karadzic, it is well known that these captains were Muslims.

 9     But you know, Mr. Karadzic, that we, Bosnia and Herzegovina, had no army,

10     that we had one single Yugoslav People's Army, and you, Mr. Karadzic, had

11     generals from the beginning.  You had tanks.  You had planes.  You had

12     howitzers, different types of guns.  There was no calibre that you didn't

13     have.  So can you please explain to us before this Chamber how is it that

14     you had such weaponry?

15        Q.   Thank you.  When I get to testify, I will explain that.  Anyway,

16     were these Muslims captains captains of the JNA?

17        A.   I don't know.  Perhaps they were.

18        Q.   From which other army would they have been captains of?

19        A.   I don't know.  I don't know what they were doing before the war,

20     if they were captains in any army before then.

21        Q.   Witness, I'm talking about matters being mentioned in this

22     report, the triangle Kamenica, Cerska, Srebrenica.  That's what I'm

23     talking about.

24             My next question is this:  On page 3 in the Serbian version and

25     in the English version, it's still on page 2 but it's marked at page 3,

Page 1343

 1     we have information about the activities there.

 2             Who lived in Brdjani, sir?

 3        A.   Where are Brdjani?

 4        Q.   In your municipality.

 5        A.   I don't think there is a Brdjani there.

 6        Q.   Who lives in Odzacine?

 7        A.   Serbs, of course.

 8        Q.   Who lives in Rozanj?

 9        A.   Perhaps Serbs, but I'm not actually that familiar with Rozanj.

10        Q.   Yeah, we did have all of that.  It says in this period many

11     combat operations took place from which we will touch upon only a few,

12     the liberation of Sapna and Gaj on May 6th, the battle for Zaseok on the

13     10th of May, the taking of Brdjani on the 14th of May, Odzacine on the

14     11th of June, the battle for Boskovici on the 22nd of June, 1992.  What

15     did the Muslim army want in Boskovici?

16        A.   Who attacked Sapna and Gaj?  Did the Muslims attack Gaj or did

17     the Serbs do that?  Gaj and Sapna are -- have a 90 per cent Muslim

18     population.  Can you please explain to me who attacked this Sapna and

19     this Gaj?  Did they attack themselves?

20        Q.   Who lived in Rastosnica?

21        A.   Serbs lived in Rastosnica.

22        Q.   There were three Croats in Rastosnica, six Muslims, and

23     2.334 Serbs.  It was a very rich village, it wasn't?

24        A.   I don't know.  I never saw that village.  I just heard about the

25     village, but I heard that there wasn't a single Muslim in Rastosnica.

Page 1344

 1        Q.   Sir, it says that on the 19th of August, 1992, and you were in

 2     your village then, the liberation of Rastosnica took place.  Who was it

 3     liberated from?

 4        A.   Look, let me tell you this:  Don't ask me that.  Ask witnesses

 5     who are from that area if they come here.  I have nothing to do with

 6     Rastosnica.  It's 40 kilometres away from me.  I was struggling to

 7     protect my children and my family.  I wasn't going off to liberate

 8     Rastosnica.  I don't even know where it is.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  But you know everything that was going on your

10     village, don't you?

11        A.   Yes.  You can ask me about my village.  Don't ask me anything

12     outside my village.  I'm not a military analyst to be able to -- well,

13     look, I came here without a single piece of paper with me.  I didn't

14     write any history of the war.  All I can say is that we were defending

15     ourselves.  We didn't have the strength to attack.

16        Q.   Sir, all the offensive actions and the occasional defensive one

17     are noted here.  So you were assaulting, attacking.

18        A.   Whom?

19        Q.   Sir, who were your enemies in that war?

20        A.   Those who were attacking us.

21        Q.   Who was that?

22        A.   It was Serbs.  They were attacking us, and they were our enemies,

23     of course.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

25             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honours, I'm objecting to the argumentative

Page 1345

 1     nature of some of this.  Occasionally there's an actual question, but

 2     we're also getting things like, "So you were assaulting, attacking."

 3     It's not a question.  It's a statement to the witness.  I realise this is

 4     cross-examination but he should be asking questions to the witness about

 5     topics the witness can talk about and topics that he knows about.  And

 6     the witness is trying to make clear what areas he can talk about and what

 7     parts he just doesn't know about.  But it's not helpful, I think, to make

 8     these argumentative assertions that don't even contain a question.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  And sir -- and, Mr. Witness, on your

10     part as well, just hear out the question and then try to maintain your

11     answer to be simple as much as possible.

12             Mr. Karadzic, continue, please.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.  I can

14     believe Mr. Nicholls that this is a cross-examination that is detrimental

15     to the Prosecution, but that is the goal of my cross-examination.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Witness --

18             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, don't try to make a final statement,

19     final comment.  Please continue.  Just concentrate on questioning.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at page 4.  Page 4

21     in the Serbian.  It's probably page 4 in the English, too.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   At the bottom of the page, sir -- well, at the top it says,

24     "Organisational establishment structure of the units," and there we have

25     the units listed.  We can look at the table at the bottom, an overview of

Page 1346

 1     the units, fighters, the number of the fighters, interventions,

 2     positions, rear.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Actually, it's probably page 4 in

 4     the English.  In the B/C/S it's page -- in the English it's page 5.  In

 5     the B/C/S it's page 4.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   So we have a total of 32 units, and the staff.  Do you see this

 8     list, sir?

 9        A.   What are you thinking of when you say 32 units?  Are you thinking

10     of 32 units only in my village or in the entire Zvornik municipality

11     area?

12        Q.   The Zvornik municipality area.

13        A.   Well, don't ask me about the Zvornik municipality.  You can only

14     ask me about my area.  I did not adopt or conduct any military policies.

15     You all have papers.  I'm talking only about things that I remember.  I'm

16     not interested about what happened in Sapna, in Djulici, what happened in

17     Bijeljina.  This is something that I don't know because they are removed

18     from me.  I didn't communicate by telephone with anybody who could then

19     tell me over the telephone this and this happened in such and such a

20     place.

21        Q.   Sir, look at number 20.  This is on page 5 in the Serbian.  Did

22     you hear about the unit called Mosque Doves or pigeons?  Did you ever

23     hear about that unit?

24        A.   No, I never heard of that unit.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at page 5 in the

Page 1347

 1     Serbian, and also I think we would need to move to the following page in

 2     the English.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Witness, can you look at this last unit with the name

 5     Sultan Fatih.  Does this refer to Mehmed the Conqueror who conquered

 6     Bosnia?

 7        A.   Well, if you believe me, this is the first time that I'm hearing

 8     that there was a unit with such a name.  I'm hearing it now, from you,

 9     for the first time.  I hadn't heard of that before.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at the following

12     page, please.  And the next page in the English as well, please.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Now we can see the replenishment:  Communications equipment,

15     30 per cent; infantry armament, 40 per cent; support armament,

16     30 per cent; anti-armour weaponry, 20 per cent; motor vehicles,

17     45 per cent; equipment and so on and so forth.  Do you see that?  So

18     infantry weaponry 40 per cent.  So there's more than enough for three

19     shifts if the weapons are not taken home but left at the positions; is

20     that correct?

21        A.   All I could have had would have been infantry weapons.  There

22     were no trucks, auxiliary arms, vehicles.  You know that we didn't have

23     any gas stations to supply ourselves.  I mean, even if you had a car you

24     were unable to drive it.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 1348

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please look at page 8 now,

 2     please.  Excuse me, no, we need to look at page 7.  We are on page 7.

 3     Excellent.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   On this page you can see what was required, what needed to be

 6     procured.  Do you see that?  Because I don't need to read it, perhaps.

 7     RUPs, Motorolas, modern infantry weaponry, jackets, uniforms, small

 8     calibre ammunition, and so on.

 9        A.   Who was asking for this and who could have provided that?  Can

10     you please tell me how far Tuzla is from this area?  You were holding all

11     of this territory.  Tuzla didn't have any links with this village of ours

12     or the villages of ours.

13        Q.   Thank you.  This is your local unit asking for supplies from the

14     base, but let us go back to the previous page.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let's look at page 8 in the B/C/S.

16     I think in the English it's also page 8.  Actually, in the English it's

17     probably one more page.  We're looking at the end of the document.  The

18     last page in the English, the last page of the document, please.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   And it says:

21             "Central tasks for the further development of the armed forces of

22     the municipality."

23             We're going to skip that.  We're going to move to the second

24     paragraph.  The main tasks are equipping with winter equipment and

25     materiels and technical equipment.  The organisational and formational

Page 1349

 1     rearranging of units and the vital enforcing of order, soldier discipline

 2     and organisation.  In the matter of command and control the key tasks are

 3     the filling of chief positions, reinforcement, leading and forming of the

 4     district staff of Kamenica, and the improvement of the system of

 5     communications.

 6              "With the conduct of combat operations, the focus should be

 7     directed at the operations to liberate and open the corridor toward

 8     Kamenica, enabling us to maintain the corridor and to strengthen the

 9     frontal area of the defence, the forward area of defence throughout the

10     liberated territory."

11        A.   All right, Karadzic.  What are you trying to say when you say it

12     was like this?  Did you want to say that we were not supposed to fight at

13     all, that we should have been sitting at home, and when you come we would

14     have allowed you to assemble all of us in one building for you to rape

15     the women and the girls, to kill whoever you wanted, to release who you

16     wanted, to do with the people as you wanted?  This is what you perhaps

17     wanted, but the people had at least a little bit of sense to put up some

18     resistance.  There was one single camp in our area and it was the only

19     one that we liberated.  And perhaps, if you want, I can explain to the

20     Trial Chamber all the things that went on in that camp.

21        Q.   Let's take it document by document and try and be as precise as

22     possible.  Now, in your units, in your -- did you have people from other

23     parts, for example, Albanians?

24        A.   We really are talking about things that don't hold water.  Well,

25     we had enough men but not enough weapons.  We didn't need more people to

Page 1350

 1     come in.  Had we had the necessary weapons, we could have defended

 2     ourselves and this would never have happened.  I would be sitting in my

 3     house at home and you wouldn't have set fire to it.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Sir --

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   We're wasting time, Witness.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  I'm asking -- I was talking, Witness.  The question

 8     was about the people, whether there was some -- you have people from

 9     other parts, for example, Albanians, but your answer was regarding the

10     weapons.  So could you try to answer the question and keep your answers

11     as simple as possible, please.

12             Mr. Karadzic.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Were there any Albanians in Kamenica?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   No Albanian women either?

17        A.   No, nobody.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May we have Defence Exhibit 1D00639

19     next, please.

20             JUDGE KWON:  While we are bringing that document, following the

21     procedure, are you minded to tender that document into evidence?

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Excellency.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Nicholls.

24             MR. NICHOLLS:  No objection.

25             JUDGE KWON:  How about the map, the Cutileiro map?  Are you --

Page 1351

 1     were you also minded to tender it or you are minded to tender it at a

 2     later stage?

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can do that later, because it

 4     wasn't precise enough.  It wasn't a precise Cutileiro map.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We'll admit this report, and the number

 6     is?

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, that will be Exhibit D38.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May we have Defence document 639

10     now, please.  It hasn't been translated, but we'll do our best to explain

11     the substance of it.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Do you know this boy from your village?

14        A.   Well, he seems familiar.  It's a child.  I'm not quite sure, but

15     I would say he was familiar.

16        Q.   All right.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now may we have page 2 of this

18     document displayed, please.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

20             Mr. Nicholls.

21             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honours, as Mr. Karadzic said, I don't

22     know -- this isn't translated.  I don't know what it's going to say, but

23     if we're showing pictures of people that are from the witness's village,

24     then I think we need to go into private session, if we're going to show

25     pictures, stories that identify the village, or at a minimum not

Page 1352

 1     broadcast the image.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Let's proceed without broadcasting this image

 3     for the moment.  Yes, thank you.  Let's proceed.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  May we have

 5     page number 2, please.  And could it not be publicly displayed.  I'll

 6     read it, but on Sanction, please.

 7             I don't wish this to be broadcast, just for the courtroom.

 8             Number 3.  I would like page number 3.  No.  I'm sorry, page 4.

 9     That's right.  I need page 4, please.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   I will read it, omitting the name of the village and just saying

12     "your village."  (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)  He tried to save his dog and paid with his life for -- in the

18     attempt."

19             And I'll explain what happened.  Since this considerable minority

20     in your village felt themselves to be under threat, fled during the

21     night, and this little boy Slobodan remembered that he'd left behind his

22     little dog, Lassie, and nobody could prevent him from going to untie his

23     dog and take the dog with him.

24             When he returned, he came across your army there, and

25     Elfete Veseli, this woman, was a member of that army, and the boy never

Page 1353

 1     returned but not as you and other witnesses have said, we've never seen

 2     the person coming back with the man, we don't know what happened to the

 3     man, but here, unfortunately, we have testimony about what happened to

 4     Slobodan.

 5             Ilija goes on to say:

 6             "We lived in that village of yours.  The Muslims were in the

 7     majority in the village.  For days and nights we sat around devising a

 8     plan of escape because we saw what the Serbs would suffer.  It was

 9     Thursday, the 4th of June, 1992, when, at dawn, we seized an opportunity

10     and managed to get out.  We took four or five goats with us.  We found

11     refuge in a hamlet," and I won't mention the hamlet, "with one of the --

12     with a kum of Zoran Milosevic.  It's along the Drina River.  When we

13     arrived, Slobodan said, 'Daddy, Lassie has stayed behind, tethered,' and

14     he went down to save the dog."

15             And let's see what happened to Slobodan next.

16             His father goes on to say nobody could prevent him from going to

17     save his dog --

18             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, there's no point in reading out all

19     parts of the media article.  Just put your question.  What is your

20     question?

21             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honour, I'm very sorry to rise again.

22     Just -- just to be careful.  Page 70, lines 1 to 5, I think if we redact.

23     He's talking about the names of the person in the village of --

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I agree.  Thank you.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll come to my question.

Page 1354

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   "'My son Slobodan's arms were cut off to the elbow,' his father

 3     recounts.  'Not a single finger was -- toe was left on his feet.  His

 4     ears had been cut off.  There was a wound cut into his chest in the form

 5     of a square, and his skin had been stripped back.  There was -- were

 6     traces of an entrance/exit wound on his head.'"

 7             Witness, you were in the village at the time.  Do you know about

 8     this event?

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)  They could have gone anywhere they

15     wanted.

16             Now, what happened to the boy, I don't know.  Whether somebody

17     sent him, I can't say.  I don't know what the boy did.  I didn't see the

18     boy.  I knew the boy because they lived nearby.  I'm not saying that they

19     didn't, and they weren't bad neighbours either, for that matter.  But as

20     soon as the multi-party elections were completed, there's that man, what

21     was his name, Sumbulja [phoen] was his nickname.  He was the only one to

22     stay with us and he died a year ago, but he was the only one to stay

23     behind.  Otherwise, nobody else remained.  But nobody expelled them.

24     They decided to leave of their own accord.

25             Now, what they did with their child, I don't know.  There was

Page 1355

 1     some scouting going on.  Now, a mother and father, to let their son go

 2     back to save a dog, I don't think so.  I don't think so.  There was

 3     something else afoot.

 4        Q.   Well, we'll come to Slobodan and his parents and the punishment

 5     that ensued, but you were talking about the elections.  What were you

 6     saying?

 7        A.   Well, this Sumbulja man, I can't remember what his name was, but

 8     him and this Stojanovic family, they started beating him because he said

 9     he voted for Alija, and they probably voted for the SDS.  So they swore

10     at him for voting for Alija.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Just a second, Mr. Karadzic.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   And they disclosed themselves in that way, right?

14        A.   Well, they quarreled.

15             MR. NICHOLLS:  I'm sorry to --

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

17             MR. NICHOLLS:  -- interrupt again, but we have names again on

18     page 71 at lines 20 and 21.  It may be impossible to talk about this

19     incident.  Maybe we should go into private session if it's going to

20     continue to go into detail about this incident and different names,

21     because otherwise we're going to keep reacting.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I'm seeing those lines as well.  We'll move on

23     to other issues.  If we continue to --

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, I'm not going to

25     mention names.  It would be a good idea for Mr. Nicholls to prevail upon

Page 1356

 1     his witness to refrain from stating place names and the names of people,

 2     but I would like us to stay in open session, if possible.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  So, sir, Mr. Witness, be cautious when naming other

 4     people because it may reveal your -- your town.  Do you understand?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, all right.  Everybody knows

 6     about the place.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  I'm seeing the clock -- let's continue.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Do you mean to say that this sweet little boy deserved this kind

11     of death?

12        A.   Well, all right, he didn't deserve it, but thousands of children

13     of other ethnicities did not deserve the death that they met, and you're

14     not asking about them, Mr. Karadzic.  The women and girls and the peoples

15     whose whole families were killed.  I'm not justifying this.  She

16     shouldn't have done anything to the child.  But what happened to her --

17     her family?  She was an Albanian woman.  What happened to her family in

18     Vlasenica?  Why don't you ask them in Vlasenica whether her family had

19     been killed first?

20        Q.   Witness, she was part of the BH Army, and it was on that basis

21     that she happened to be in your village at that time and committed this

22     act, and nobody is challenging that, and this dangerous boy coming to

23     reconnoiter, as you put it, was cut into pieces.

24        A.   Well, we heard that the child had been killed, but nobody said

25     that the child had been massacred.

Page 1357

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I'd like to

 2     tender this Defence document into evidence, please.  Rather, I'd like to

 3     have it MFI'd.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Nicholls.

 5             MR. NICHOLLS:  No objection, Your Honours.  We just, of course,

 6     wait for the translation.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Yes.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, that will be MFI D39, under seal.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  We'll have a break now, but --

10                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

11             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, when you filed the notifications of

12     time estimate for April 2010 on 9th of April this year, you indicated you

13     would need four hours for cross-examination of this witness.  At the time

14     you didn't indicate that four hours would be necessary, only for the

15     purpose of the situation regarding '92 -- '93.  Given that you spent

16     about -- more than one and a half hours as of now for the

17     cross-examination but you haven't dealt with a thing about the situation

18     in '95.  During the course of next session I would expect you to come to

19     those issues.

20             We have a witness who testifies -- who survived one of the

21     horrendous massacres, but you made an appalling statement that he's not a

22     victim but just a soldier.  You should come to your questions to the

23     witness.

24             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, excuse me.  If we could move into

25     private session very quickly before you adjourn.  I wanted to raise one

Page 1358

 1     matter, bring it to the Court's attention.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 3                           [Private session]

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24                           [Open session]

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

Page 1359

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, I had counted on

 2     what Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff had stated, that Srebrenica would come at the

 3     end, and even if I don't have time to say anything about 1995, I'd like

 4     to clarify the events leading up to 1993, because that's so important.

 5     It's very important that nobody asks this witness relevant questions and

 6     he's angry now.  And I don't want to insult him.  He's insulted by the

 7     truth, but I'm insulted by lies and I have to clear this up.

 8             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honour.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So I would like --

10             JUDGE KWON:  This is not an opportunity for you to make

11     submissions.  You will have full opportunities.  So concentrate on your

12     questions.  And -- nobody -- the Chamber has not precluded you from

13     asking questions regarding 1992, 1993 questions -- situations, but given

14     your statement -- given the case, I think it's proper for you to use your

15     time properly.

16             We will rise for 25 minutes.

17                           --- Recess taken at 5.23 p.m.

18                           --- On resuming at 5.51 p.m.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Excellency.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Witness, sir, you came on the 3rd of April.  Did you hear that

23     Mr. Izetbegovic, as the president of our joint Presidency, declared

24     general mobilisation on the 4th of April for the entire combat force in

25     Bosnia and Herzegovina?

Page 1360

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   But this was in the media.

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Did you watch television in your village?

 5        A.   Yes, I did, but I never heard that this happened then.

 6        Q.   And did you hear that on the 8th of April, mobilisation of the

 7     Muslim sector of the police was declared in Zvornik?

 8        A.   I think that that was when Zvornik fell.  The Serbian forces took

 9     Zvornik.

10        Q.   The mobilisation took place first, then the Serbs fled to Serbia.

11        A.   And then when did they come?

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at 643 now, please.

13     643 is in English.  We need to look at page 2 of 643.  It's only in

14     English.  We don't have it in the Serbian here.  Ah, it's in the e-court

15     in Serbian too.  I'm going to deal with the text in English and the

16     interpreters can translate it for you.  This is page 55.  Page 55 --

17     actually, page 69 of the book, and page 5 of the English document.  In

18     e-court it's page 9, and in the Serbian it's page 69.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   While we're waiting, I'm going to read to you something from the

21     first paragraph, where it says:

22             "[In English] The SDA aspired to create a single front, and it

23     gains the support of all except the SDS.  With the conflict in Croatia,

24     more specifically when conflict erupted in Pakrac, spring 1991,

25     Brano Grujic, the president of the Municipal Board of the SDS, had

Page 1361

 1     requested a meeting of creating a strategy to prevent the conflict from

 2     translating to Zvornik.  The meeting was held, and it was agreed that the

 3     situation would be monitored so that this region would remain in a

 4     peaceful state."

 5             [Interpretation] You can see that the president of the Serbian

 6     Democratic Party, Brano Grujic, made the first move by offering to create

 7     conditions so that the war would not move into Zvornik; is that correct?

 8        A.   No, definitely not.  The tanks were in Karakaj on the 2nd and

 9     3rd of April.  What you say about the Serbs crossing into Serbia is

10     incorrect.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you.  Please, I ask you not to waste my time.

12        A.   Brano Grujic knew that he was being tried for war crimes or that

13     he would be tried for war crimes.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Nicholls.

15             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you, Your Honours.  Just for the record and

16     for the witness, could the accused put on the record what -- what he's

17     actually reading from.  It's not in the transcript, I don't believe.  The

18     book and the author.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  You omitted introducing the foundation of the

20     book, who was the author, what it is about.  Let's continue.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With your permission, Excellency, I

22     didn't forget.  This is my tactic that I use with hostile witnesses.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Witness, this is a book by Mirza Hamzic.  The title of the book

25     is "Zvornik from elections to Dayton."  It was published in 1998.  You've

Page 1362

 1     heard the name of Mirza Hamzic before, haven't you?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   But definitely he's Muslim.  Is he a Muslim?

 4        A.   Yes, judging by the first and last name, yes, he is.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With your permission, I would like

 6     to continue.  We would need to look at page 10 of this document and

 7     page 71 of the book now.  In English you -- you have it.

 8             MR. KARADZIC:

 9        Q.   "The Patriotic League was formed on the July the 26th, 1991, in a

10     youth library in Kula Grad.  We had formed a Crisis Staff, but its

11     commander was yet to be chosen.  In the conversations between Hadzic and

12     Juzbasic, it was requested that Juzbasic's wing should deliver a

13     commander.  A meeting was held during which it was decided that

14     Sakib Halilovic, aka Kibe, was to be named as a -- as the commander."

15             [Interpretation] Do you know Sakib Halilovic?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Thank you.  The next paragraph:

18             "[In English] The organisation was now created.  The defence plan

19     was created, and a network for weapon delivery was established.  Weapons

20     were purchased in Vienna and delivered to Brod, where the network of the

21     Patriotic League was formed.  'Smugglers' were brought in who had sold

22     weapons in order to be able to purchase new ones.  In September of 1991,

23     roughly 15 weapons had arrived via the SDA, which had a counter-effect

24     because Juzbasic had been saying how weapons should not be purchased and

25     how the SDA would arm the people."

Page 1363

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 11 of the document now,

 2     please, and page 72 of the book.  Excellencies, I think you have that on

 3     this page.  The last part of the paragraph there says -- I have to read

 4     the whole paragraph:

 5             "[In English] Through companies there were attempts to access

 6     money for the purchasing of weapons.  During one meeting with company

 7     executives, when the Chetniks tore through Serbia, had begun their

 8     bacchanalia in Karakaj and Celopek, means were sought but Muhamed Jelkic,

 9     the executive manager of the health centre" --

10             JUDGE KWON:  Next page in B/C/S, please.

11             MR. KARADZIC:

12        Q.   "Had offered to supply the means necessary for the purchasing of

13     weapons by which the people would be protected.  Accordingly, there was a

14     topic on the withdrawal of our young men serving in the JNA, and the

15     prevention of the mobilisation of reservists."

16             [Interpretation] I asked you, sir, whether the JNA became Serb

17     because Serbs were rushing to join the JNA or because you were leaving

18     the JNA and preventing mobilisation pursuant to instructions from your

19     leaders.

20        A.   Had there been Bosniaks in the army, it was referred to as the

21     JNA from the 1990s, they would have been victims.  They probably would

22     have had to be at forward positions, your Serb soldiers would be behind

23     them, and in shooting they would probably have been the victims.

24        Q.   Thank you.  That was not my question.  The question was whether

25     Muslim soldiers and officers were leaving the JNA pursuant to

Page 1364

 1     instructions of your leadership, and did your leadership prevent the

 2     response to the call-up?

 3        A.   Yes, it did.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now move to the next page,

 6     please.

 7             "[In English] Conflict with the SDA had influenced the

 8     effectiveness of this action.  At one point, the Zvornik MUP had

 9     encountered one of our soldiers in the JNA who had deserted and returned

10     him to his unit.  As a response to question as to what he was doing,

11     Osman Mustafic, MUP executive, had answered, I am sustaining the legal

12     government.  And what are we doing?  You are creating an upheaval."

13             [Interpretation] A rebellion.  An overthrow.  An overthrow, a

14     rebellion.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Did you hear of Osman Mustafic?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Were the overall preparations of the Muslim community and their

19     fighting have the character of a rebellion?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   But this policeman, a government figure, said you are conducting

22     an overthrow.

23        A.   Yes, that is correct.

24        Q.   Sir, he said that about the SDA.

25        A.   No.  This is what the Serbs were doing.  Osman was just a pawn.

Page 1365

 1     He couldn't do anything there.  You immediately separated and set up

 2     barricades around Karakaj, together with the Serbian police.  Osman could

 3     only have just watched this.

 4        Q.   Sir, you are wasting time.  We already lost a lot of time on some

 5     other questions.

 6        A.   You are wasting time.  I can sit here for as long as necessary.

 7        Q.   I know, but the Chamber won't permit that.

 8        A.   Well, it's up to you, then.

 9        Q.   "[In English] The result was a paradoxical situation in which

10     Pasic's faction was well controlled by the MUP, whose leader was a

11     Bosniak.  In spite of that fact, the SDA had, through channels of the

12     Patriotic League, managed to import around 3 or 4.000 barrels to the

13     municipality of Zvornik.  At one of the Assembly sessions of the

14     municipality Zvornik, the SDS representative had presented information of

15     the arming of the Bosniaks.  Inspector Sakib Coric," [Interpretation] who

16     is evidently a Muslim, "[In English] was hired to examine the status and

17     was given a warrant to apprehend Asim Hadzic as the organiser of the

18     illegal activity -- of that illegal activity.  Hadzic had managed to

19     acquire that warrant and had given it to the republic MUP minister,

20     Alija Delimustafic."

21             [Interpretation] Sir, do you see that there was political

22     activity in the municipality to prevent the arming, but this was bypassed

23     and this was something that went past Delibasic, who is a Muslim police

24     officer?

25        A.   Well, you are reading this and that, but I'm really familiar with

Page 1366

 1     very little of what you are reading out.

 2        Q.   Well, we're in a hurry, so let us go to page 73 of the book, the

 3     end of that paragraph, where it says:

 4             "[In English] Abdulah Pasic had answered, Surrender the weapons.

 5     I had already contacted the other side and we need to continue living

 6     together."

 7             [Interpretation] Abdulah Pasic also believes that we should live

 8     together and not to fight.  Have you heard of Abdulah Pasic?

 9        A.   You know what?  What you are saying, we did surrender weapons,

10     and those people who did surrender their weapons are dead now.  They

11     didn't get to cohabit with the others just because they handed over their

12     weapons.  What you are saying is actually not accurate at all.

13        Q.   It is accurate.  Page 12 and page 74 of the book:

14             "[In English] The employees of Radio Zvornik were told to pack

15     the equipment and abandon the city, and that the municipal authorities

16     were to move to Kula Grad."

17             [Interpretation] So the Muslim part of the authorities in Zvornik

18     municipality were leaving Zvornik and transferring to Kula Grad, the

19     centre of authority.

20        A.   Oh, come on, Karadzic.  Don't say such stupid things.  Please

21     don't.  Kula Grad can't take the -- they left Zvornik municipality.  If

22     you have something more intelligent to say, say it, but don't keep on

23     about stupid things like that.

24        Q.   Witness, don't get upset.  This is a Serb truth.

25        A.   It's the Serb untruth.  Mr. Karadzic, tell this Court and the

Page 1367

 1     people here, please tell them.  Do you acknowledge that the Serbs were

 2     responsible for anything and should be held responsible for anything?

 3     It's only others that are to blame, according to you.  But let's stop

 4     these stupidities.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Sir.  Sir, could you be so kind to simply

 6     answer the question.

 7             Let's move on.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I can't answer

 9     stupid questions.  I do apologise.  You're the President, but I

10     experienced everything on my own skin, and my children were not able to

11     have a happy childhood like other children.  So if you don't like what

12     I'm saying, just tell me.  You can tell me, "Sir, you can leave and go

13     back to where you came from."

14             JUDGE KWON:  Sir, you've come here to answer the questions, and

15     in that way, the Chamber is assisted in finding the truth.  So I can

16     understand how you feel, but please calm down and then concentrate on

17     answering the questions.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, you tell him not to

19     read this because it's got nothing to do with me.  He can read something

20     that is personally linked to me.  I'm not a military strategist and I

21     didn't write an archive so that I can open documents like Karadzic can

22     with his associates and do it that way.  I'm just telling you what I know

23     about.  I'm not interested in anything else.

24             JUDGE KWON:  So please bear with the question, and if you are not

25     able to answer the question or you don't know anything about it, please

Page 1368

 1     answer in that way.

 2             Let's move on.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, they're not questions for me.

 4     They're not questions for me.  Not my questions.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Witness, in your statements and during your testimony, you did

 8     make claims about what happened in that area, and now I want to show that

 9     what happened were other things, and I'm reading a Muslim source.  This

10     isn't an attack against you.  It's just an attempt to establish the

11     truth.

12        A.   There's not one iota of truth there, so don't talk about the

13     truth.  That's why I am getting upset, because you're telling untruths,

14     and I thank Allah for having been in Bosnia and Herzegovina throughout

15     the war so I could see, come to realise what my neighbours were like.

16     They had dinner with us one night and took up knives to kill us the

17     other.

18        Q.   And is that the first time in our history that that happened,

19     Witness?

20        A.   Well, it is as far as I'm concerned, because I don't remember

21     other historical events.  But this happened before the eyes of the world,

22     before the United Nations, and the United Nations linked up the Bosniak

23     people and gave the executioners all their weapons.

24             Gentlemen, you know that Srebrenica was a protected area, and it

25     should not have fallen, and you allowed 18.000 inhabitants to be killed.

Page 1369

 1     Did you hear a mother saying last year that she was in childbirth in

 2     Potocari, and another woman helped her deliver her baby, and as soon as

 3     the baby let out a cry, a Serb soldier came out and smothered the child,

 4     killed the child.  You don't understand that, gentlemen.  When the

 5     mothers of Srebrenica said they were going to sue the United Nations,

 6     they said the United Nations had immunity.  Nobody had such strong

 7     immunity, because you took away -- first of all, you took away all our

 8     property.  Then you took away our lives, and now you want to say that we

 9     Muslims wanted --

10             JUDGE BAIRD:  Excuse me.  Excuse me.  Now, we fully -- we fully

11     appreciate how you feel.  We really do.  But now what Judge Morrison and

12     Judge Kwon have said, I will also say.  Dr. Karadzic is entitled to ask

13     you questions.  He is entitled to cross-examine you.  If when you hear

14     the question you find you don't understand it, then let us know.  We'll

15     have him clarify it.  If the question is improper, then the Prosecutor

16     would object.  We would hear the objection, and we will rule, or we

17     ourselves might intervene.  But as long as the question has not been

18     objected to, and as long as we haven't intervened and you understand the

19     question, answer it as best you can.  That is all we are saying.  But we

20     do appreciate how you feel.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge, sir -- Judge, sir, I

22     understand you.  I understand you well, but you don't understand me.

23     You're listening to what Karadzic is reading, and that has nothing to do

24     with my statement or testimony.  I'm not interested in that.  I'm not a

25     politician.  I'm not a military analyst.

Page 1370

 1             JUDGE BAIRD:  You see, what I'm saying is this:  If when

 2     Mr. Karadzic asks you a question you don't agree, say, "I don't agree."

 3     If you don't accept it, say "I don't accept it."  But you see, you can't

 4     tell him that he can't ask you.  He is entitled to cross-examine.  But

 5     you now would be entitled to say, "Look, I don't understand this

 6     question --"

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have my rights too.  I have come

 8     here to did testify --

 9             JUDGE BAIRD:  You, indeed, have your rights.  You do indeed have

10     your rights and we would not allow those rights to be trampled on, but he

11     also has his rights.  And we are there now to balance, to ensure that

12     both sets of rights are respected.

13             Mr. Karadzic, let's carry on.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE BAIRD:  All right.  Very well.  Let's go on.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Witness, I'm going to make it easier for everyone concerned, and

18     I won't read word for word, but I'd like to say something with respect to

19     page 16, page 82 of the book, that after the meeting with Mr. Mustafic,

20     Captain Dragan Obrenovic arrived and informed them that an incident had

21     taken place.  I think that was the 5th of April, an incident in Sapna

22     where a soldier of the Yugoslav People's Army, which with -- withdrawing

23     to Yugoslavia was killed, and the other soldiers were scattered and eight

24     of their soldiers were captured.  Do you remember that incident?

25        A.   No.

Page 1371

 1        Q.   Thank you.  The president of the municipality, Abdulah Pasic and

 2     the SDA, Asim Juzbasic, proposed that the soldiers be released to prevent

 3     an escalation.  Did you hear about that happening?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   Let's move on to page 26 now, which is page 102 of the book.  And

 6     there Mr. Hamzic, this is Mirza Hamzic's book and his words, he said that

 7     they were thinking about calling their army the Muslim army.  Did you

 8     hear about that?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11        A.   In our army there were people of all ethnicities.  It wasn't a

12     mono-ethnic army.

13        Q.   Well, we had whole Muslim units in our army.

14        A.   I don't believe that.  I don't believe that.  And if you did,

15     perhaps you had prisoners to dig trenches for you.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now let's look at page 30 of this

17     document and it is page 111 of the book.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Page 111 says the following:

20             "We had a plan for defence, for the defence of Zvornik, and we

21     had information from the authorities in Zvornik, and they were Muslims,

22     said Almir, because the former JNA just crossed the Zvornik in Serbia [In

23     English] arranged artillery, fortified itself and brought more

24     reinforcements.  Thus, immediately prior to the Chetnik aggression, we

25     had intended to occupy the key positions in Zvornik.  Assuredly, however,

Page 1372

 1     we are not able to do so without the support and co-operation of the

 2     leading figures in municipality."

 3             [Interpretation] It says here that before the Serb attack, they

 4     moved the radio and the Muslim authorities to Kula Grad, and they planned

 5     to take control of the key positions in town.

 6             Now, did you hear about that?

 7        A.   No.  They didn't have the force and strength to do that with the

 8     cause.  Serbia raised their cause.  How could the population fight the

 9     Serbian cause, army cause?

10        Q.   I'm sure the Trial Chamber will calculate the time spent on

11     nothing, my time spent on nothing.

12             "According to the plan Zvornik was not to be defended alone.  [In

13     English] It was only one of the municipalities for which commander

14     Sakib Halilovic was installed in the subregion of Podrinje which was,

15     aside from Zvornik, also comprised of Bratunac, Srebrenica, Vlasenica,

16     and Kladanj, and the commander was Salko Dedic."

17             [Interpretation] So the regional military organisation whose

18     commander was Salko Delic -- Dedic.

19             Now, when I said previously that it wasn't the Serb truth, what I

20     meant -- what I said is this is a Muslim truth.  So I'd like to correct

21     the transcript on that score.

22             Was there regional military organisation as Mirza Hamzic writes

23     in the book?

24        A.   Where?

25        Q.   Zvornik, Bratunac, Kladanj, Vlasenica, and so on.  The commander

Page 1373

 1     was Salko Dedic.

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the speakers kindly be asked to speak one

 3     at a time for the benefit of one and all, otherwise it is impossible to

 4     interpret.  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Sir, just a second.  The interpreters couldn't

 6     follow your questions and answers because you were overlapping at the

 7     same time.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll repeat it if they haven't

 9     interpreted it.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the Prosecution instruct the

11     witness that it is me asking the questions and not him.

12             JUDGE KWON:  The Prosecution has nothing to do with monitoring

13     the witness evidence.  It is for the Chamber.

14             The last question was:

15             "Zvornik, Bratunac, Kladanj, Vlasenica, and so on.  The commander

16     was Salko Dedic."

17             That's what we have in the transcript.  What is your answer,

18     Mr. Witness?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, this is the first time that I

20     hear of this man Salko Dedic, and I was in an encirclement.  I had no

21     communication with anyone or anything.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  May I continue,

23     Your Excellency?

24             JUDGE KWON:  Please.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 1374

 1        Q.   Page 36 of this document, and page 123 of the book.  It --

 2              "[In English] Salko Bukarevic, one of the organisers and active

 3     members of the Patriotic League for north-eastern Bosnia recalls this

 4     period retrospectively." [No interpretation].

 5             "At the beginning of January 1992, Sefer Halilovic, the commander

 6     of Patriotic League for B and H, arrived in Tuzla from Sarajevo.

 7     Together with the members of the headquarters of the Patriotic League

 8     Tuzla, he visited the north-eastern Bosnia region.  Among the members of

 9     the headquarters was also Salko Bukarevic, who says about the -- Sefer's

10     visit."

11             [Interpretation] Page 37 or 124:

12             "[In English] Talks with the leader of SDA and municipality

13     authorities --" [Interpretation] So the municipal authorities, the Muslim

14     part of the municipal authorities are collaborating with the illegal

15     Patriotic League in January 1992, the beginning of January 1992.  On that

16     occasion he gave specific tasks for individual municipalities.  [In

17     English] He was especially interested in the readiness of Podrinje for a

18     potential defence.  That is when the president of the SDS Zvornik,

19     Asim Juzbasic said that all units are ready for a possible task and also

20     that everything is prepared for the destruction of bridges on the Drina."

21             [Interpretation] Sir, you had even prepared the destruction of

22     the bridges on the Drina River in June 1992, whereas we were in the

23     throes of negotiations which ended on the 18th of March with the

24     exceptions of the Lisbon Agreement.  Is that the case, is that right or

25     not?

Page 1375

 1        A.   Tell me, Karadzic.  What were they prepared -- preparing to

 2     defend themselves from?  Was there a threat to them, that they should

 3     prepare themselves?

 4        Q.   Sir, does it say that they were prepared, that everything was

 5     prepared for the destruction of the bridges?

 6        A.   I don't know, but what is it that they had to defend themselves

 7     against?  So if you weren't in favour of war, why would they have to

 8     defend themselves and prepare themselves for defence?  Answer me that.

 9     The Judges are there.  The two of you are over there.

10        Q.   Yes.  Let's not waste time.  I'm not here to answer questions,

11     you are.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I'd like to

13     tender this document into evidence, Mirza Hamzic's book, and the excerpts

14     we've read out.  1D00643 is the number.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Nicholls.

17             MR. NICHOLLS:  Again, Your Honour, no real objection.  However, I

18     think it should be marked at this time, because we have very small

19     extracts of translation, not a proper translation.  We don't have the

20     context of these questions, but I have no real objection.  I just don't

21     think we have a proper translation at this point.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Despite the Prosecution's observation, the Chamber

23     is not minded to admit this book.  The reason is because most of the

24     part -- the contents were put to the witness, and the witness did not

25     confirm most of those parts.  The part that the witness confirmed is --

Page 1376

 1     has been already reflected in the transcript, so there's no need for

 2     those parts to be admitted separately.  And as far as these other parts

 3     the witness didn't confirm or did not agree with, there is no basis.

 4     That does not mean that you cannot produce it during the Defence case.

 5             So this shows how much you wasted time.  I would expect you to

 6     get advice from Mr. Robinson how to use your cross-examination time

 7     wisely and efficiently.  This is not a proper way of cross-examination,

 8     in particular, to the witness, as you said, who is not hostile -- who is

 9     not friendly to you.  So please bear that in mind.

10             So this exhibit is not admitted at this moment.  Move on to your

11     next topic.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.  I

13     think that this exhibit, if nothing, is useful in order to test the

14     credibility of this witness.  Now I would like to call up 644, and could

15     I please ask that it not be broadcast to the public.  644.  And can we

16     prepare 645?  We're going to go through them quickly.  I just would like

17     for the witness to look at this and comment.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Do we not go -- do we not need to go into private

19     session?

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, no.  If this is not being

21     broadcast outside, then it's not necessary.  If this is only being

22     broadcast in the courtroom, then it's all right.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Witness, sir, do you know this personality, and do you see his

25     name?

Page 1377

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Did you socialise with him in Belgrade?  He also worked in

 3     Belgrade?

 4        A.   No.  He was in the police and I was in construction.  Sometimes

 5     we would travel by bus together.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  I'm only going to look at the middle paragraph.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I please ask you to scroll

 8     up.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Where it says:  "He was one of the first founders of the

11     1st Muslim Podrinje Brigade, and he joined the same with over (redacted)

12     (redacted)

13     (redacted)

14     (redacted)  He

15     carried out officer duties and so on and so forth.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this

17     document for admission and we will translate it.  We will have -- we did

18     not mention the name of the village.  Can we please ask the witness

19     although -- the interpreters, although they have to look at the document.

20     This is the village of this witness and this man together, and I have

21     maintained the confidentiality.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Mr. Nicholls.

23             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honours, again there's no translation, so I

24     have no idea what Mr. Karadzic is reading from.  And two, there hasn't

25     been any statement of what this text in the box is, where it's from.

Page 1378

 1     There needs to be some sort of foundation or description of the document

 2     rather than just a picture and text in a box that is being admitted.

 3     Sought to be admitted.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, what is this document about?  Who

 5     prepared or produced this document?

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, this is a monograph

 7     of the 8th Srebrenica Operations Group of the 28th Division of the land

 8     forces, which is already in the EDS and in the e-court.  It's in the

 9     e-court.  We're going to look at it.  This is number 646.  These are all

10     just excerpts in order for us not to have to submit the entire document.

11     We are just bringing up certain portions of this monograph.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Can you please tell me, where exactly did he bring these

14     500 people?  The 1st Muslim Podrinje brigade.

15        A.   But where?  Where?  Where?  You said from which village he took

16     them, but where?

17        Q.   He took them probably to Srebrenica?

18        A.   No.  He left our village before the women and children left.  He

19     went to Tuzla.  He perhaps didn't even see Srebrenica, ever, with his own

20     eyes.

21        Q.   Sir, it states here that he was appointed commander of the

22     1st Motorised Infantry Brigade.  Perhaps it was in Tuzla but --

23        A.   Definitely not.  I'm not saying anything about Tuzla, but for

24     sure, he never went to Srebrenica.

25             JUDGE KWON:  That's fine.  So, Mr. Nicholls, what is your

Page 1379

 1     position having heard from the accused?

 2             MR. NICHOLLS:  Sorry, Your Honour, I'm still not clear.  I'm

 3     trying to find out what the document is.  It may be in EDS, but I'm not

 4     clear on what the document is, where it is, who the author is, what

 5     entity it's from.

 6             MR. TIEGER:  And, Your Honour, I'm --

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Your Honour.  It may not be necessary to

 9     go into private session if the Court will look quickly at 95, lines 10

10     through 15.  Although the document wasn't broadcast, there were two

11     consecutive references that -- that effectively nullified that cautionary

12     measure, and I think gave indications that should be redacted.

13             JUDGE KWON:  That will be taken care of by the Court Officer and

14     the Legal Officer.

15             THE ACCUSED:  [No interpretation] [Microphone not activated].

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, this is a Muslim

18     source, a monograph about their own army after the war.  It's loaded into

19     the EDS and the e-court, and in order not to admit or tender the whole

20     document, we are just bringing up certain portions of the documents.  So

21     646 and then 645, and we can look at the first page of the document.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, I would take your word, but you are

23     not giving evidence, and we are not satisfied with the foundation of the

24     document of this kind, so until that time and pending translation, we'll

25     mark this document for identification.

Page 1380

 1             What number will be given to this?

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be MFI D40, under seal.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Sir, did you have something to say?  Did you want to

 4     say something to me?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Let's proceed, Mr. Karadzic.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just briefly, can we show the

 8     witness 645, and 646 after that, and then we're going to move to a

 9     different topic.  645 first, please.  I would like this not to be

10     broadcast.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Can we look at the name.  Are you familiar with this name, sir?

13             JUDGE KWON:  Go up.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Witness, sir, do you know this man?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Can you see in the second paragraph it says:

18             "From September 1991, worked intensively to organise and prepare

19     resistance to the aggression on the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina

20     when he was also appointed as commander of the Crisis Staff for the

21     region."

22        A.   That man is still working as a clerk in a municipality.  He had

23     nothing to do with the army or anything.  I don't think that he ever even

24     went out anywhere or took up a rifle in his hands.

25        Q.   Thank you.  This is a document of your command.

Page 1381

 1        A.   If we had more people like this, we would have been many, many

 2     more dead.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellency, can we adopt this --

 4     admit this as an MFI document, and can we please now move to document

 5     646.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  D41, MFI'd.  Next one, Exhibit D41, MFI'd.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 646, please.  This is the book, the

 8     monograph, the 2nd Corps of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  Now let

 9     us look at 646, page 3, in the e-court.

10             Excellencies, this is that book.  It is undoubtedly a Muslim

11     book, published by their army.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Witness, will you permit me just to read what --

14             JUDGE KWON:  What was your question to -- regarding the previous

15     image?

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The question was whether he knew

17     this man, and I read the second paragraph where we can see that from

18     September 1991 he worked to organise and prepare armed resistance and so

19     on and so forth.  And the witness confirmed that he knew the person but

20     that he doubts or does not believe that he did that and that he was

21     unfit.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was not unfit.  He just didn't

23     join the army.  I don't know if he did anything illegally, but --

24             JUDGE KWON:  What --

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 1382

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  What was your question regarding that flag, if

 3     that's a -- monograph.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, that is the cover

 5     page of the book from which we are taking this document.  Now we're

 6     looking at page 3, that I'm going to put questions to the witness from.

 7     It's just that I didn't say, "Can we look at page 3."  They immediately

 8     showed the cover page or page 1.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Witness, sir, now I'm going to read to you this 8th Operations

11     Group of Srebrenica, later the 28th Division of the ground forces

12     comprise the 280th East Bosnian Light Brigade Potocari, 281st East

13     Bosnian Light Brigade Suceska, 282nd East Bosnian Light Brigade

14     Srebrenica 123, 285th East Bosnian Light Brigade Zepa, 286th Mountain

15     Brigade Srebrenica.  You are right, the first Motorised Infantry Brigade

16     was in Tuzla, whose commander was shown on that first picture.

17             So can you please tell us according to what you know, were these

18     units part of the 8th Operations Group?

19        A.   I don't know if they were that after 1993, but before 1993, they

20     were not.  I actually came to Srebrenica in 1993.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at page 46 in the

22     e-court?  1C6th Detachment Srebrenica, where it says already in April,

23     the 6th of April, 1992, repelled a Chetnik attack on Kula as well as the

24     surrender of weapons on the 11th of April, 1992, and repelled the Chetnik

25     attack on Kamenica on the 25th of April, 1992.  This was followed by

Page 1383

 1     attacks on Kula and the fall of Kula, the attack on Snagovo, Liplje and

 2     Kamenica.  So that is that unit.  The retaking of the village and the

 3     fighting on the 25th of May, 1992, and the 27th of May, 1992.  Sabotage

 4     on enemy vehicles and force in Redzici and so on and so forth.  I don't

 5     want to read to whole thing just look at that.  Are you aware of all

 6     these fights?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   But all of this is happening in your village?

 9        A.   All I know is that these units came with light vehicles, and I

10     don't know about the rest.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at page 12 in the

12     e-court and can we not broadcast it outside the courtroom again, please.

13             Page 12, TO, the 6th Detachment.  I'm not mentioning the name of

14     the village.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Sir, can you see the third line, 4, 5, 6, and you can see your

17     last name on positions 3, 6, and 9.  These are commanders of your

18     6th Detachment from your village.

19        A.   Yes.  What commanders?  These are just regular people.  It's just

20     that they went to defend the innocent people there.  These are no

21     commanders.  Not one of them has any rank.

22        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Thank you.  You said in your statement that from

23     Konjevic Polje, that it was agreed that civilians should go to Srebrenica

24     from Konjevic Polje.  Who was this agreement made with?

25        A.   Morillon came there.

Page 1384

 1        Q.   And who did Morillon reach this agreement with?

 2        A.   With Naser Oric.

 3        Q.   And who else?

 4        A.   I don't know.  I was just small fry.  I don't know who they made

 5     these agreements with.

 6        Q.   Why didn't he agree about it with Serbs, because the Serbs were

 7     supposed to let you cross that territory?

 8        A.   Which Serbs?

 9        Q.   Serbs from Bratunac and Srebrenica?

10        A.   Well, had the Serbs been there, we wouldn't have been able to

11     leave.  There was a camp there also.  You came there.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We're under the pressure of time.

13     I apologise to the interpreters.  I understand completely.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   You arrived in Srebrenica and Serbs did not take Srebrenica.  Why

16     didn't they do that?  What do you think?

17             MR. NICHOLLS:  Objection.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you can ask that question to

19     the Serbs.  Please don't ask me.

20             MR. NICHOLLS:  Objection, Your Honour.  I mean, calling for him

21     to speculate why a military action did not take place then.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  It is not for the witness to speculate.  I

23     agree.

24             Mr. Karadzic, how much longer do you have for this witness?

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I don't think I

Page 1385

 1     had more than two hours of effective work.  Everything else was

 2     procedural questions and resistance from this hostile witness.  So I

 3     would like to be given two hours, perhaps an hour and a half I could

 4     spend with 1995, and then perhaps the witness wouldn't have to come back

 5     again.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  I see the time.  At least I would expect you to

 7     start your questions regarding the 1995 circumstances.  Let's move on.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll do my best, but there are many

 9     documents that I haven't gone through.  This witness is more important,

10     as far as the Defence is concerned, for 1993.

11             May we now have 255, a Defence exhibit, please.

12             JUDGE KWON:  I meant tomorrow.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Ah, I beg your pardon.  Tomorrow.

14     Right.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Before we move on, shall we deal with this

16     document?  You're moving on to another document?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, yes, I would

18     like to move it into evidence.

19             JUDGE KWON:  I forgot to mention the previous document which was

20     admitted as D41, MFI'd, was under seal.  And this monograph, what would

21     you say?

22             MR. NICHOLLS:  I have no objection to this being marked,

23     Your Honour.  I'm still not entirely clear what it is, but I'll --

24             JUDGE KWON:  But my concern is that I noted in -- from the

25     e-court, it's of 135 pages long, and the pages which were put to the

Page 1386

 1     witness is only 1, 3, 12, and 46.  So we will only mark only those pages

 2     for identification, pending translation.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be MFI'd D42, under seal.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Let's move on, Mr. Karadzic.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I fear that more pages were put to

 6     the witness than you mentioned.  Pages on e-court or pages in the book,

 7     which?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  I relied on you when I referred to page numbers, but

 9     that can be clarified after checking the transcript.  Let's go on.

10             So I was advised that they are e-court numbers.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I hope we'll be able to

12     correct it if necessary.

13             May we have the next document.  Do we have time for that one

14     today, one more?

15             JUDGE KWON:  We have ten more minutes for today.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D0055 [as interpreted] is the next

17     document, please.  255 is the document number.  I don't know how it was

18     interpreted.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Now, Witness -- may we zoom in.  You have my order of the 16th of

21     April, 1993, there, and it says:

22             "I hereby order cease all operations of the army --"

23             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think the witness can read it.  Do you

24     recognise any of the document?  Can you read them?  No.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I'm not trying to read it

Page 1387

 1     either, because I need my glasses to read.  I can't even read one or two

 2     lines.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   We can put it on the overhead projector, if you like, and I'll

 5     read it.

 6        A.   Well, you go ahead and read it.  I don't need to read it.  No,

 7     no.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Let's proceed.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   From this order we can see that I ordered that all operations

12     cease against Srebrenica.  And then one item says that I also ordered

13     that no investigations of the crime be undertaken, committed by those

14     soldiers, the Muslim soldiers, so as to prevent increased tension.

15             Do you see that?

16        A.   Well, you might have ordered it for the benefit of the public,

17     but secretly you said, "Kill as many as possible," because it was your

18     aim to kill as many people as possible.  It's not true that you wanted to

19     prevent this and protect this.  And I heard you say over the radio, but I

20     can't remember how far before the fall of Srebrenica it was, that you

21     would take your revenge on the men of Srebrenica.

22        Q.   Sir, your Prosecutors will have to bring in that statement of

23     mine if it exists.

24        A.   No.  The Prosecution didn't hear that.  I heard it.  I listened

25     to it.

Page 1388

 1             JUDGE KWON:  No speech, please.  Just ask the questions.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   It says here under item 1:

 4             "Cease all operations ..."

 5             Item 2:  "Stop the forces ... at the positions reached and

 6     prevent their entry into Srebrenica."

 7             Item 3, and the date is the 16th of April, 1993.  After you

 8     arrived in Srebrenica and the Army of Republika Srpska had liberated the

 9     part inhabited by the Serbs, and that's how the Srebrenica protected zone

10     was established.

11             "Ensure the pacification of the town in such a way that the

12     Muslim forces surrender their weapons to UNPROFOR ..." not the Serbs,

13     UNPROFOR.  And then UNPROFOR will store them on a two-key basis jointly

14     with the Serb forces.

15             Item 5:  "After the surrender of weapons all the Muslim soldiers

16     shall be treated like other civilians."

17             "Provide protection for all civilians and give them the freedom

18     to choose whether they want to stay or go."

19             Item 6:  "Do not conduct any investigations into war crimes until

20     the situation around Srebrenica is settled."

21             7:  "Carry the order out immediately and fully and inform me

22     thereof."

23             So the army stopped at the lines reached.  It did not enter

24     Srebrenica until 1995.  Isn't that right?

25        A.   No.  No, that's not right.  That's not how it was because you,

Page 1389

 1     sir, had the intention of cleansing Srebrenica.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3        A.   When you try to dupe the United Nations and behave towards the

 4     civilians as you did -- yes, you did.  You killed the population and

 5     children, and there were lots of 14-year-old children buried last year.

 6     And people's eyes were full of tears, because to kill a 14-year-old child

 7     that's terrible.

 8        Q.   You're wasting my time.

 9        A.   So are you.

10        Q.   There was never a female body found or the body of a minor child

11     under the age of 16 found during the exhumation.  And now we can move on

12     to page 153 -- 53.

13        A.   The Judges are here.  The Prosecution is here.  Your Defence is

14     there.  In Potocari the -- every buried person has a name and surname.

15     So if I'm telling lies, I'll sit in your place and you'll sit in my place

16     and testify against me.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Sir --

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Everything can be checked out.  It

19     will only take you 24 hours.  You can get a list of all the names buried.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Sir, please calm down.

21             Mr. Karadzic, this -- as I told you several times, this is not a

22     place for you to make a statement.  You said there was never a female

23     body found or the body of a minor child under the age of 16 found during

24     the exhumation.  You should put your statement to the witness, whether

25     the witness agrees with it or not.  Your statement does not help us at

Page 1390

 1     all.

 2             Sir, do you agree with that?  Whether there was never a female

 3     body or the body of a minor child found during the exhumation.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I've just told you.

 5     Everything is accessible to you in Potocari.  You have the names and

 6     surnames written up on the slabs.  The planes have started flying, so

 7     people can bring in the names of the people.  I did not conduct the

 8     exhumations, whether there were women or not, but 66 women were killed.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] OTP 65 ter 00053 next, please, and

10     then that will be all for today.  The OTP document 65 ter 00053.  This is

11     the transcript of a meeting of the popular Assembly of Republika Srpska,

12     the 33rd session held on the 21st of July, 1993.  And I'd like to draw

13     your attention to the last -- it hasn't come up on our screens yet but

14     the last sentence.  Perhaps I can read it.

15             JUDGE KWON:  In the meantime, I take it that you do not object to

16     the admission of the last document, his order.

17             MR. NICHOLLS:  No, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE KWON:  And the number is?

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, that will be Exhibit D43.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  This will be the last question, Mr. Karadzic,

21     for today.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   I'll read it out.  It's on page 02150376.  12031576 and 77.  I

25     think it's the same page in English.  I'll read out what I said at the

Page 1391

 1     Assembly meeting.  Once again not to be broadcast -- not for the media.

 2     It's not propaganda.

 3             If you take this with -- situation with Srebrenica, I think that

 4     it's a point to us, because if we had entered Srebrenica, people would

 5     have entered whose families had been killed.  1.200 Serbs were killed up

 6     until 1993.  Up until the end, it was 3.500.  So 1.200 Serbs were killed.

 7     There would have been blood up to our knees and we could have lost the

 8     country because of that.  That is why I consider that Morillon saved us,

 9     not the Muslims, when he entered Srebrenica.

10        A.   You're right, sir, yes.  Morillon did save you.  You're quite

11     right there.  Morillon -- it was in front of Morillon's eyes that the

12     shooting took place.  I think there was a man from UNPROFOR who was

13     wounded as well, and Morillon watched it all.  Yes, that's right.

14     Morillon was very good for you.  And you mentioned Cutileiro, that

15     Cutileiro of yours.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Now, do you accept that up until that point around

17     Srebrenica, 1.200 Serbs were killed and who killed them, I ask you?

18        A.   Do you know how many Muslims were killed?

19        Q.   That's not what I'm asking you now.

20        A.   I don't know.  I came to Srebrenica from another municipality.  I

21     have no idea what happened in Srebrenica, just as you don't know what

22     happened in my village.  But, of course, you know everything because you

23     were the commander.  You were the commander.  You issued the orders.  You

24     were the number-one man.

25             JUDGE KWON:  We will adjourn for today.

Page 1392

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to request that the

 2     OTP 65 ter document 00053, pages 376 and 377, with the marked text that I

 3     read out, be tendered into evidence, please, as a Defence exhibit.

 4             MR. NICHOLLS:  No objection.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D44.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Witness, it must have been a long day for you.

 8     We will continue tomorrow.  In the meantime, I would request to you not

 9     to discuss with anybody about your evidence.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this is not tiring

11     to me, because I want to show what kind of man he is that did all this,

12     and now he pretends to be innocent.  Well, why have you then, gentlemen,

13     brought in an innocent man?  Why have you brought in an innocent man here

14     if he's innocent?  It's not an effort to me.  I can sit here for three

15     days and nights if need be.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  We will continue tomorrow, tomorrow

17     afternoon, 2.15.

18                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.03 p.m.,

19                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 22nd day

20                           of April, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.