Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1393

 1                           Thursday, 22 April 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Good afternoon, everybody.

 6             I was told that there's something that Mr. Tieger wants to say.

 7             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.  I'll try to be

 8     brief.  I debated whether or not to raise it at this point, but I thought

 9     doing so might save time over the long haul, and that's the matter of

10     questions, linkage, and protective measures.  The Court will recall that

11     I raised that issue previously in private session, pointing to a couple

12     of instances after or during the course of the first witness, in which

13     the accused had made a link between protective measures and particular

14     witnesses.  It occurred again yesterday.  I wanted to note a couple of

15     the examples and strongly encourage the more rigorous application of

16     attention to linkage between witnesses, protected information that may

17     divulge -- or protected information that may divulge identities and

18     questions that reveal protected information.

19             One example occurred when the accused indicated that he would not

20     mention the name of the village from which the person whose photograph

21     and name he was about to publicly display came from, but as it turned

22     out, he didn't mention the name, but the name of the boy is very well

23     known.  It's part of a notorious incident, rather a cause celeb known to

24     many people, and certainly if not known to people, easily identified

25     through a quick search of the web.  So that's the kind of linkage that

Page 1394

 1     can be made.  As the Presiding Judge indicated yesterday, there is easy

 2     expedience to avoid that problem.

 3             Another instance occurred when the accused said he didn't want a

 4     document displayed publicly, but then he read from the document.  And

 5     immediately after reading from the document, including the name of a

 6     village, made the linkage by saying, So that person brought people from

 7     his village and your village, directly making the linkage.

 8             I want to underscore again the concern about the need to comply

 9     with protective measures and the need for significantly greater rigour in

10     ensuring that the linkage between protected information and information

11     divulged openly in court is not made.  I think that would apply as well

12     to any questions that are asked about why protective measures were sought

13     or granted, that should be in private session.  And I can't underscore

14     more forcefully the need to be cautious.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Tieger.  I hope the accused,

16     Mr. Karadzic, understood it as well, and then the Chamber will pay

17     attention more robustly on the matter.

18             Let us bring in the witness.

19             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President.  While we're doing

20     that --

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

22             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, there's one -- we've just

23     discovered what we believe to be a disclosure violation with respect to

24     the next witness, and I would wonder if this document that would be the

25     subject of a motion, could be given to you before the witness comes in so

Page 1395

 1     that you could have looked at it, and so you'll know what we're talking

 2     about when we raise the issue.  It's not in the e-court.  It was just

 3     given to us as Rule 66(B) disclosure.  But I could give you the number or

 4     I could ask the Prosecution to make it available, or I have a paper copy

 5     that can be copied.  But it would be useful if you have that document, so

 6     that when the witness comes and we make a motion about that, you will

 7     know its contents.

 8             JUDGE MORRISON:  Mr. Robinson, it's not this immediate witness,

 9     it's the following witness?

10             MR. ROBINSON:  No, the following witness, Mr. Okun, yes.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, might I be

12     allowed to say something?

13             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

14             Mr. Robinson, you meant to say that you're going to file a motion

15     in writing?

16             MR. ROBINSON:  No.  Actually, we were going to make an oral

17     motion.  We just saw the document today, and the witness is coming today,

18     so --

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I will hear you later on.

20             MR. ROBINSON:  Thank you.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.

23             I agree that we should adhere to the protective measures granted,

24     although we consider them to be superfluous and detrimental.  But here

25     the protective measures have been extended to include a whole area.  I'm

Page 1396

 1     not allowed to mention any village where at least four drastic events

 2     took place.  One village has almost 2.000 inhabitants.  So why would a

 3     village disclose the identity of a person?  And I'm afraid that the

 4     Prosecution is using protective measures to cast a shadow and cover a

 5     very important event that came before everything else.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  I do not accept your allegation that protective

 7     measures regime is superfluous and detrimental.  Neither do I think that

 8     regime is that difficult for you to understand.  So consult

 9     Mr. Robinson and design your examination in order not to violate the

10     regime.

11             Let's bring in the witness.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] While we're waiting for the witness

13     to come in, I didn't say the name.  I just said, "your village," and the

14     interpreter said the name.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Well, it is true, but if the village is to be

16     identified together with the other circumstances, there may be situations

17     that his identity may be revealed, so be very cautious, please.

18             Yes.

19                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

20                           [The witness takes the stand]

21             JUDGE KWON:  Before we start again, I wonder, Mr. Robinson, could

22     you be so kind as to provide the Chamber with the copies of the document.

23             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, I could do that.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Before we begin today, then, I have some words to

25     say to the witness.

Page 1397

 1                           WITNESS:  KDZ064 [Resumed]

 2                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Sir, the Chamber understands that you have raised

 4     some concerns with the Victims and Witnesses Section about the manner in

 5     which you were treated during your evidence yesterday.  In this regard, I

 6     would like to say a few words about this before we begin today.

 7             It is the nature of the legal process at this Tribunal that all

 8     witnesses are questioned both by the party who has called them and by the

 9     opposing party, in your situation being the accused Mr. Karadzic, who is

10     entitled to do cross-examine you not in the capacity of an accused

11     person, but in the capacity as Defence counsel for himself.  I understand

12     that that might be something that is difficult for you to understand, but

13     that is a Rule of this Tribunal.

14             When a witness enters the witness box to be cross-examined, he or

15     she has to accept that he or she will be challenged, and sometimes with

16     vigour.  Therefore, often during such cross-examination, questions are

17     put which are difficult or may be perceived to be impolite or improper by

18     the witness being asked them.

19             It is the Chamber's role and duty to prevent a witness from being

20     harassed, insulted, or verbally abused during cross-examination, as well

21     as to ensure that questions asked are relevant to the case.  The Chamber

22     will intervene in these circumstances, as we did yesterday on one

23     occasion.  Otherwise, as advised by my colleague Judge Baird yesterday,

24     it is for you, the witness, to answer the questions put to you to the

25     best of your ability and not for you to ask why such questions are being

Page 1398

 1     asked or to refuse to respond.

 2             We are sorry if you feel that you were unjustly treated

 3     yesterday.  The Chamber was far from criticising you, but we merely

 4     wanted to provide you with guidance that seemed necessary.

 5             Please bear in mind that it is the accused, Mr. Karadzic, who is

 6     on trial here and who faces serious penalties if he's ultimately

 7     convicted of the charges against him.  You are giving evidence that will

 8     assist the Chamber in making its final determination of those charges,

 9     and Mr. Karadzic is entitled to challenge your evidence as well as your

10     own credibility.

11             We are conscious of the fact that this can be an unpleasant

12     experience for any witness, and we are grateful for your willingness to

13     come to the Tribunal and go through this process yet again.  The Chamber

14     will do its utmost to ensure that you are asked questions in an

15     appropriate manner, but again it is your duty, as a witness, to answer

16     the questions put to you as concisely as you can.

17             On this matter, the Chamber will not hear either from the witness

18     or from the parties.

19             We'll continue.  I noted, Mr. Karadzic, you spent about an hour

20     and 45 minutes yesterday -- I'm sorry, two hours and forty-four minutes

21     in total.  Given that you noted that you would need four hours in total,

22     I would expect you to conclude your cross-examination by this -- during

23     the course of this first session.

24             Mr. Karadzic, please continue your cross-examination.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.  I had

Page 1399

 1     hoped that if I get through 1995, that I will be given more time now, but

 2     anyway.

 3                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Witness, I'm also concerned and worried that I

 5     didn't upset you in some way or insult you.  That wasn't my intention at

 6     all.  But I want to ask you:  Did we know each other before the war?

 7        A.   No, I just saw you on the television screen.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Now, yesterday, on the last page, I think 110 of the

 9     transcript, you said that you were happy to come here to say what kind of

10     man I am and to deal with me.  Now, that is your right, but what I am

11     asking you now is:  Did somebody tell you that, or did you want to do

12     that of your own accord?

13        A.   No, nobody told me.  It's your acts that speak for themselves.

14        Q.   So you have the motive of dealing with me and settling accounts

15     with me?

16        A.   No, I'm just saying that the acts you committed speak for

17     themselves.

18        Q.   Well, I'm sorry that you have that view.  But, anyway, you said

19     Elfeta Vaseli [phoen], the lady we talked about yesterday in connection

20     with the child -- I'm sorry to hear that -- well, you said that she

21     had -- that her family was killed.  Her brother and father are still

22     alive, but one brother was killed as a volunteer in the Croatian Army,

23     and another was in the Muslim army, and she is hiding somewhere in the

24     federation, but her brothers are living quite free; is that right?

25        A.   No.  Well, actually, I don't know.  I don't know anything about

Page 1400

 1     that.  I don't think I ever saw the woman, personally.

 2        Q.   But you don't know, so what you said, that she had a personal

 3     motive for doing what she did, is not true?

 4        A.   Well, I heard people say that her family -- her entire family had

 5     been killed.  I didn't say that I had seen it or knew about it

 6     personally.

 7        Q.   Yes.  And another thing that I'd like to check out, on the basis

 8     of what you said yesterday:  You have a pension of some kind, do you?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   You don't have a pension of any kind?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   And were your years of service in the Bosnian Army counted for as

13     years of service?

14        A.   No.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] All right.  He did have his

16     service in the BH Army, was certified and confirmed.

17        Q.   Is that right?

18        A.   Yes, that's right.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Sir, before we move on to 1995 and Srebrenica, let me

20     just see one thing.

21             Yesterday, I mentioned that I stopped the Republika Srpska Army

22     at the borders of Srebrenica because we were afraid that the people would

23     take their revenge, because 1.200 Serbs had been killed in that area and

24     that was quite fresh in everybody's mind.  What do you have to say to

25     that?

Page 1401

 1        A.   Well, the reason you say you stopped them from doing -- from

 2     things happening, well, what happened happened in Potocari.

 3        Q.   I'm talking about 1993 now, and for that would you look at the

 4     four localities I'm going to show you now.

 5             But let me ask you this:  Of those 1200 people killed, how many

 6     of them were killed in your village and the surrounding parts?

 7        A.   You mean in my village?

 8        Q.   Yes.

 9        A.   Well, I don't know.

10        Q.   But do you know that many people were killed?

11        A.   Well, yes, quite a lot of people were killed.  That's true.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] May I ask the usher to hand the

13     witness this piece of paper with four localities on it.

14        Q.   You don't have to read the names out, but just tell me if they're

15     places in and around your village.

16             JUDGE KWON:  So that should not be broadcast.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   If you have looked at the piece of paper -- have you?

19             We don't have to display it.

20             But can you see those four places?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Are those four places around your village?

23        A.   Yes.  All those four names, yes.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Could you wait?  We are not able to see the document

25     yet.  ELMO hasn't been prepared.  Let's wait and see.

Page 1402

 1                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Then we'll take a look at it directly.  Could you

 3     bring it to the Bench.

 4             Very well.  We can proceed, Mr. Karadzic.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, I'd like this

 6     piece of paper, under seal, to be admitted, those four localities.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  What is the number?

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit D44, under seal.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Let's proceed.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] I'd now like to have called up on

11     e-court document 1D859, please.

12             We have to be careful with the name on the photograph or that

13     this photograph should not be displayed in public, the name of the

14     locality.

15             JUDGE KWON:  One way to do it is to roll down the document so

16     that we can't see the name of the village.  Yes, that's fine.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Very good, that's been solved,

18     then.  Thank you.

19        Q.   Now, sir, are those victims from one of those localities?

20        A.   Yes, yes.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I'd like to have that

22     admitted into evidence.

23             JUDGE KWON:  This can't be broadcast, but we have passed already.

24             And the number?

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D45, perhaps

Page 1403

 1     under seal because of the name.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  I forgot to ask you, Mr. Nicholls.  I take it

 3     there's no objection.

 4             MR. NICHOLLS:  There's no objection.  And to be open, if we just

 5     write over the name, I have no objection to that either, perhaps.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, thank you.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] May we have 1D860 next, please.

 8     And may we proceed in the same manner as with the previous picture; that

 9     we scroll down so that the name of the locality cannot be seen.  Thank

10     you.

11        Q.   Do you recognise this tree?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   And do you know that it's a willow tree or, rather, a tree for

14     hanging Serbs from?

15        A.   Who says that?  Who says Serbs were hung from this?  That is

16     100 per cent a lie.  I saw a tree similar to this, and you slaughtered

17     lambs, and we found the skins of lambs under one such tree.  So that's a

18     lie.

19        Q.   We determined that.

20        A.   Well, you could have hung anything from that tree, just a pair of

21     trousers or a shirt or whatever, but what you're saying is 100 per cent a

22     lie.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] May we have document 1D861,

24     please, to show what was found on the tree.  I'd like the Trial Chamber

25     to see that and to see the locality, and then we can cover the locality

Page 1404

 1     up.  861 is the next photograph.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, Karadzic, do you know

 3     where this place is?

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Well, the people who investigated know where it is.

 6        A.   But wait a minute.  Is that the territory of a Serb village or a

 7     Bosniak village?

 8        Q.   In your village, there were Serbs and Bosniaks.

 9        A.   But you tell me, Mr. Karadzic.  When those Serbs came, they

10     expelled all the Bosniak people and set fire to all the houses.  We had

11     four mosques.  All four mosques were destroyed by them.  You set fire to

12     three women, and they were burnt.  You killed an old man of 80 who didn't

13     want to leave his home.  You're not saying that, you're not saying any of

14     that.  You're talking about three or four kilometres one way, and three

15     or four kilometres another.  There was no Serb village in the vicinity.

16     Where did you expel all those people to, sir?

17        Q.   This is your village, in which you killed the Serbs from your

18     village and captured Serbs who enjoyed the protection of the

19     Geneva Conventions, and this has been established.

20        A.   That's not true.

21        Q.   All right.  But we'll provide the court records of this in due

22     course.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to tender this into

24     evidence next.

25             And may we have 861 displayed to show the situation that the

Page 1405

 1     Serb Army encountered when it entered the village.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Nicholls, can I ask your position as to all of

 3     the pictures or photos that seems to be going to be presented?

 4             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honour, my position would be that they're of

 5     extremely limited relevance, if any.  The witness now just answered - I

 6     don't think he needs to take his headphones off - that he was asking

 7     which village this tree is in, and he didn't recognise it.  So

 8     Mr. Karadzic has said that he will bring a witness, if I understood him

 9     right, who will discuss this investigation, and that might be a more

10     appropriate way, somebody with first-hand knowledge who can go through

11     these photos.  But they are of very limited relevance, if any, although

12     they are obviously disturbing to look at, if we go through each and every

13     one of these.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 100 per cent sure, it's not true,

15     sir, and that's 100 per cent sure.  This is just a Serb fabrication.  You

16     know what Serbs can fabricate, no one else can.

17             I don't know whether it's exactly this tree, but I was by a tree

18     like this where they put a beam so that they could skin sheep and then

19     roast them and eat them.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Why don't we mark for identification all of these

21     photos, and I don't see much point of putting each of them to the

22     witness, who is not likely to confirm any of the photos.  And then

23     I think you have another opportunity to bring witnesses who can testify

24     about photos.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Excellency.  I would

Page 1406

 1     briefly like to show this.  This is part of a court exhibit, and it

 2     actually had to do with proceedings related to the situation that the

 3     army found in his village when they entered it.  The next photograph will

 4     show this, 862.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Let's try just three of them.  Choose three pictures

 6     and then show -- photos, and then show them to the witness, and let's see

 7     what he can answer to those pictures.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Excellency.  Then 862,

 9     please.

10        Q.   These are exhumations that were carried out by a judiciary organ.

11     Actually, do you know that this exhumation was carried out on this hill?

12        A.   No, no, I don't know about that.  But, yes, they were buried

13     there.  Yes, I know that.  I had seen those few dead people, yes.

14             As for the hanging, that is a 100 per cent lie.  We were not

15     taking people prisoner and hanging them, no.  Somebody just invented

16     that.  What kind of nonsense is this?  There is no law that can prove

17     that there were any hangings.  You exhumed these people after three

18     months.  You did not find them hanging.  Don't tell us all this nonsense.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] 1D642, please.

20        Q.   Witness, it's all from yesterday, 28800 through to 83, and the

21     page number is 15.  It's from the Milosevic transcript.  President

22     Milosevic says to you, What did you use to kill all these Serbs?  And

23     your answer was, Rifles only.  Is that true?

24        A.   Yes, yes.

25        Q.   Now we're going to see whether you killed them with something

Page 1407

 1     else or whether you massacred them once they were dead.

 2        A.   I don't know who massacred who, I don't know.  I cannot tell you

 3     about that.  I cannot say yes or no.  I just know -- let me tell you.

 4     Your soldiers brought a box of ammunition.  They went to a small village

 5     consisting of, say, eight houses that they hadn't burned yet, and people

 6     were still living in these houses.  When they went to that village, they

 7     actually missed it, and they went in the other direction.  Perhaps it's

 8     about a kilometre away as the crow flies.  People were shooting, and they

 9     hit the windshield of that small TAM truck, and then they took this

10     wounded person and went back.  When our people came, just before night

11     they found a box of ammunition containing 5.000 bullets.  I want to tell

12     you about these bullets.  They were killed with those bullets that they

13     had brought in.

14        Q.   Please, let us stick to --

15        A.   Well --

16        Q.   Are you denying that these people were exhumed there, and that at

17     all four localities there were mass graves and they were exhumed?  Are

18     you denying that, or are you confirming that?

19        A.   I don't know.  I didn't see that.  I just know that that trench

20     on the front-line that you held, people didn't want to dig that, and then

21     that was covered.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Nicholls, what is your position regarding

23     Defence evidence 860 to which the witness seemed to have confirmed to a

24     certain extent, an exhumation picture?

25             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honour, I don't have it on the screen, but my

Page 1408

 1     recollection was that he didn't know anything about the exhumation, but

 2     that he'd heard or saw that people had been killed.

 3             Going back to the tree, the witness said he didn't know what that

 4     tree was or where it was, so I do not think that a foundation has been

 5     laid for those two to be admitted.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Let me go back to his answer.

 7             After he said:  "No, no, I don't know about that," he said:

 8             "But, yes, they were buried there.  I know that."

 9             Lines 8 and 9, page 14.

10             MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes, Your Honour.  I mean, no objection, then.

11     But he simply couldn't say this was a photo of that exhumation.  He

12     wasn't familiar with that.

13             JUDGE KWON:  How about 642, which was just shown, which is

14     coming -- seems to be coming from the Milosevic trial?

15             MR. NICHOLLS:  Yeah.  No objection, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE KWON:  And the tree -- the photo of a tree, 640, it seems

17     to be identical to one of these pictures, if you take a look at page 5 of

18     this.  But we'll see whether it's identical or not.

19             So we mark for identification 640, and the number is ...?

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, that will be MFI D45.

21             JUDGE KWON:  And we admit 862 and 642.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D46 and D47,

23     respectively.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Let's move on, Mr. Karadzic.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Could I now please have 641, 641.

Page 1409

 1        Q.   That is a court record of the on-site investigation.  It is the

 2     basic court Zvornik, and the date is the 22nd of February, 1993.  It is a

 3     record of the on-site investigation, and it says that it is that first,

 4     second, third, and fourth locality that you confirmed was in your area.

 5     And it has to do with the exhumation and identification of members of

 6     Republika Srpska from common mass graves that were taken prisoner --

 7     these people were taken prisoner at Kamenica.

 8        A.   No, no, no, they got killed at the front-line.

 9        Q.   Sir, this is a court record.

10        A.   Look, let me tell you.  Ninety per cent and even more were people

11     who were not from that territory at all.  These were people from other

12     areas, all of them.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Can we move on to page 3 of this

14     document, please.

15             JUDGE KWON:  We have no English translation, do we?

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] No.  For the time being, there

17     doesn't seem to be one.

18        Q.   Person number 15, the corpse is deformed, the skull is crushed.

19     There were traces of burning on the stomach, and skin is burned as well.

20     It is the son of Bogdan - I'm not going to mention the name - born in

21     1949, from your village.  He was identified by his wife.

22             Sir, so there are four mass graves.  In every one of them, there

23     were mutilations.  Heads were cut off, bodies were burned, roasted.  Is

24     that what you are denying?

25        A.   No, no, that did not happen.  There was one corpse without a

Page 1410

 1     head, but there was no one that had been burned or roasted.  Perhaps some

 2     corpses were perhaps deformed because they were dragged somewhere, but

 3     I can guarantee that it wasn't more than that.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Is the transcript all

 5     right?  Thank you.  Let's not dwell on it any longer.  You're going to

 6     get a translation of this.

 7             641, could that please be admitted, together with 642, with all

 8     the other documents, that is.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Nicholls.

10             MR. NICHOLLS:  No objection to it being marked, Your Honour.  But

11     we don't have a translation.  I'd like to see more, what is in this.  And

12     the witness has not read the document, does not know anything about this

13     document, but it can be marked at this time.

14             JUDGE KWON:  So 641 will be marked nor identification, pending

15     translation.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be MFI D48, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE KWON:  And for the sake of time, we'll mark for

18     identification all the other photos, pending until we hear the evidence

19     from other witnesses.

20             Mr. Karadzic, let's move on to your real topic.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22        Q.   Let us just finish with this briefly.  Did the Serb Army show up

23     for the first time in November 1992 in your area?

24        A.   Yes.  That Serb Army threw us out.  They were the ones who threw

25     us out.  They burned all our houses.  I saw, with my very own eyes, how

Page 1411

 1     my own house was burning.  I do not feel sorry for these people, even if

 2     they all got killed.  Whoever comes to steal somebody's property or ruin

 3     someone's property and someone's home, may he not return to his own home.

 4        Q.   Witness, let's finish with that part, and let's move on to 1995.

 5             I'm going to tell you something, Mr. Witness.  That Serb Army

 6     tolerated you and the fact that you were shooting at them, at the back,

 7     all the way up to November 1992.

 8        A.   They tolerated us, I don't know, from the 19th or 26th of April

 9     all the way up until that time.

10             JUDGE KWON:  In the meantime, I would appreciate if the

11     Court Officer would circulate to the parties the exhibit number of all

12     the photos that have been marked for identification.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Witness, did your army close the road going across Konjevic Polje

16     to Zvornik?  Up until then, we couldn't use it at all.

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Did your army make incursions to Crni Vrh in order to close the

19     road through Zepardi?

20        A.   No, I don't know about that.

21        Q.   I have to wait for a moment.

22             Is Crni Vrh close to you?

23        A.   No.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Could we briefly have this map put

25     on the projector?  It's a map of the international community.  I think

Page 1412

 1     it's a NATO map, or UNPROFOR.  I got it from the OTP, I think.  Yes.

 2     Would you please put this part there, this part [indicates], so that we

 3     see this part.  This can be broadcast.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

 6        Q.   Witness, do you see this here?  Between Srebrenica and your area,

 7     there is Serb territory, Serb-controlled territory.  And, see, from here

 8     we can see how you get to Crni Vrh, and that is what is written here.

 9     May I remind you that you were attacking from there; not only the army,

10     in the back, but you were also attacking civilian convoys, and you also

11     killed a busload of civilians?

12        A.   Where, where?  Crni Vrh?

13        Q.   Yes.

14        A.   Crni Vrh is 70 kilometres away.  I mean, how could somebody get

15     there?  They'd need a bus to get there.  How can I get out of Srebrenica?

16     I can only go to Potocari, Suceska.  We were as if we were in a camp.  We

17     were just waiting to get killed by someone.  Come on, how can you compare

18     that, Srebrenica and Crni Vrh, I mean really truly?

19        Q.   Thank you very much.

20        A.   If it were somewhere closer, all right, but Srebrenica and

21     Crni Vrh, come off it.

22        Q.   Sir, Crni Vrh is near Zepardi.  You see where this green,

23     three-pronged line is.

24        A.   I know Crni Vrh is 20 kilometres away from my village and at

25     least 70 kilometres away from Srebrenica.  And what did they take?

Page 1413

 1     Aeroplanes.  What?  I mean, from Srebrenica to do that?  I mean, really

 2     and truly.

 3        Q.   No, sir, from your village, before the fall of your village.

 4        A.   My village?  We could not defend ourselves, we could not defend

 5     our village.  Could we go and attack someone else further away?

 6        Q.   I'm just going to state something now.

 7        A.   Goodness gracious.

 8        Q.   This is an UNPROFOR map that shows that you are going to the

 9     Pale-Zvornik road near Zepardi and that you're threatening that road as

10     well.  You're already holding the one near Konjevic Polje, and you're

11     threatening this one.  And you killed not only soldiers there.  I mean

12     not you, personally, but your army.  They killed civilians as well,

13     including a bus full of civilians that got killed there.  Is that the way

14     it was?

15        A.   No, no, no.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             Sir, I just want to ask you what you have to say to this:  If I

18     tell you that the army could no longer tolerate your shooting in the back

19     and your interruption of all roads --

20        A.   Well, how about you telling me, Mr. Karadzic ?  Did you attack

21     all of Bosnia-Herzegovina?  There is not a single place in

22     Bosnia-Herzegovina that you did not attack.  Take a map, have a look at

23     it.  Look, the Court is here, the Prosecutor is here, your Defence,

24     everybody.  In all of Bosnia-Herzegovina, you occupied territory.  You

25     attacked Sarajevo, Bihac, Zenica, Visoko, Olovo, Kladanj; that is to

Page 1414

 1     say -- oh, yes, Tuzla as well.  There is not a single place that you did

 2     not attack.  All right, if it were just in one place, but you were

 3     attacking all over the place.  That was in your interest.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Excuse me.

 5             Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

 6             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honour, part of the problem is the

 7     questioning.  This is not a question:

 8             "Thank you, sir.  I just want to ask you what you have to say to

 9     this:  If I tell you that the army could no longer tolerate your shooting

10     in the back and your shooting of all the roads."

11             There needs to be a clear question.

12             JUDGE KWON:  My understanding was to be that he was putting his

13     case to the witness, and the witness denied it.

14             Let's proceed.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I'd like to tender the

16     map into evidence now, please.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Well, you said this is an UNPROFOR map, but the

18     marking is done by you; am I correct in so understanding?

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] No, no.  It's an UNPROFOR map

20     showing the situation as they monitored it.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Nicholls.

22             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could I have the ERN number of this map, or the

23     65 ter number, or some kind of indication of what exactly it is we have

24     on the screen, because that hasn't been put into the record and I haven't

25     seen the map, other than this section we can see on the ELMO.

Page 1415

 1             JUDGE KWON:  And I don't see this document in his documents for

 2     cross-examination.  Was it included in the list?

 3             MR. NICHOLLS:  It was not, Your Honour.  I did not object because

 4     I know that occasionally a map is -- but I don't know what we're looking

 5     at.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  If the usher could hand over the map to Mr. Nicholls

 7     and so that he can examine it.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] If it wasn't on the list, I'd like

 9     it marked for identification.  They'll be many more such maps.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Nicholls is not opposing to this practice, so

11     it's okay.  But whether -- let's see whether Mr. Nicholls can confirm it

12     or not.

13             You can proceed while Mr. Nicholls is examining the map.  Let's

14     proceed.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16        Q.   Because my time is short, Witness, we have to -- or, rather, I

17     will put things to you cumulatively.

18             During your five testimonies and several statements and reports,

19     so you testified five times, gave five statements and five reports, you

20     gave fairly contradictory data when it comes to the details, and if we

21     had time, I would go into all those details.  But let me ask you this

22     now:  When did you leave your village?

23        A.   I left my village in 1993, sometime in February perhaps.

24        Q.   In some statements and testimonies, you say that it was in

25     October 1992?

Page 1416

 1        A.   No.  They expelled us in 1992.  The ones that you showed us

 2     pictures of a moment ago, they expelled us, but they set their fire --

 3     houses on fire in October.  And when they were killed, this was on the

 4     6th of November.  Those are those favourite people of yours who came to

 5     expel us and set fire to our houses, yes.  That was in October.  We moved

 6     out, but then we returned and lived in those half-burnt-down houses.

 7     When the women and children left, the Serbs came again, and we had to

 8     withdraw again.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

10             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honours, I don't accept this blanket

11     statement about contradictory data being given.  I asked yesterday in the

12     future that sites be given, according to the Court's guide-lines, to

13     statements.  So if the cross-examination is now going to focus on

14     statements made by the witness, I'd ask that the guide-lines be followed

15     and we be given the reference whenever Mr. Karadzic is talking about a

16     particular point.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  That was in his

18     testimony during the Tolimir trial.  I'll find the reference.  But if I'm

19     to do that, then I'll need far more time, if I'm going to look into every

20     contradictory piece of evidence that this witness provided.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

22             MR. NICHOLLS:  No, Your Honour, I don't think that does require

23     further time.  I think that's an incredibly weak argument for a witness

24     that the accused has known about since October, has had all the

25     statements for a long time.  And the Tolimir statement, as soon as it

Page 1417

 1     came out.  It's a basic part of preparing your cross, that when you're

 2     going to put a statement to a witness, that you know where it comes from

 3     and that you are able to back that up.  That shouldn't take a lot more

 4     time; that's just you prepare a cross.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Let's move on.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7             Thank you, Mr. Nicholls.  It's in the transcript, 513

 8     [as interpreted] to 5873, pages 7 and 8, in the Tolimir trial.

 9        Q.   Just tell us very briefly, what did your trip to Srebrenica look

10     like, what was it like?

11        A.   Well, when we left our village, we arrived in Konjevic Polje and

12     spent six days in a house there.  And when Mr. Morillon arrived, Morillon

13     went up to the Hrncica Mosque and raised a United Nations flag there.

14     And we all left Konjevic Polje and withdrew upwards towards a place

15     called Pervani.

16        Q.   Just give me the time.  When was that?

17        A.   Well, I'm telling you.  It might have been sometime around the

18     5th or 6th of March; when we were in Konjevic Polje, I mean.

19        Q.   And how long were you in P ervani?

20        A.   Three days.

21        Q.   And how many of you were there?

22        A.   I and my two brothers, that's all.

23        Q.   Weren't there any more people?

24        A.   Well, yes.  People were living in their houses.

25        Q.   So, sir, you didn't leave your village in a large group and reach

Page 1418

 1     Konjevic Polje and later Srebrenica?

 2        A.   No.  We were in a big group when the column set out towards

 3     Srebrenica.  That's how we got to Srebrenica.

 4        Q.   You said, sir, that there were several hundred of you; right?

 5        A.   No.  There might have been several thousand, not hundreds.  The

 6     people were on the move all the time.  We just joined the column and set

 7     out with them.

 8        Q.   And when did you arrive in Srebrenica?

 9        A.   Well, I think it was on the 13th of March.

10        Q.   Before that, your family had left for Tuzla.  Why didn't you go

11     to Tuzla?

12        A.   No, I didn't go, and I explained yesterday why I didn't go.  When

13     we set out to Tuzla, all of us together, we were cut off, the column was

14     cut off and the road was cut off, and we couldn't pass by that way.  But

15     we wanted to go to Tuzla before we were supposed to go to Srebrenica.

16        Q.   Very well.  Now, in Srebrenica, you tilled the soil of some Serb;

17     right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And you lived in the town or the village?

20        A.   In town.

21        Q.   Where was the Serb whose farm you worked on?

22        A.   Well, how do I know?  He was a refugee somewhere.

23        Q.   You said here that Srebrenica had been demilitarised.  Now, I'd

24     like to tell you that not even the Prosecution claims that anymore and

25     that the Secretary General of the United Nations informed the

Page 1419

 1     Security Council that Srebrenica and other protected areas were

 2     strongholds of the Muslim Army, military strongholds.  And the

 3     Prosecution, in a pre-trial brief -- in its pre-trial brief, in

 4     paragraph 52, accepted the fact that Srebrenica was not a demilitarised

 5     zone, but that it was armed.

 6        A.   Well, as a rule, that secretary should be sitting on your side

 7     over there, and Yasushi Akashi should be on the other side, and then we

 8     should have a trial.  The United Nations are the main cause of the deaths

 9     in Srebrenica.  They disarmed the people and allowed the executioners to

10     kill them all.  Do you know, gentlemen, that you killed babies that had

11     just been born several minutes ago, right up to old people who were

12     90 years old?

13             JUDGE KWON:  Excuse me.  The question was whether Srebrenica was

14     demilitarised.  What is your answer to that question, sir?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes, it was

16     demilitarised.

17             But do you know, Mr. Karadzic, when the Canadian Battalion

18     arrived, that you committed a great massacre in 1993, in the month of

19     April, when over 60 inhabitants were killed, women, children, adults, in

20     front of a school building?

21             JUDGE KWON:  Sir, we do not have much time, so please try to

22     answer the question.

23             Let's move on to your next question.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   So the massacre that you mentioned, we have evidence and proof

Page 1420

 1     that we're going to present here was carried out by Naser Oric on orders

 2     from Sarajevo.  But let's leave it there, because we're going to prove

 3     that in due course.

 4             Anyway, you were living in Srebrenica and you know what happened

 5     in Srebrenica.  Was this gentleman Mr. Golic in Srebrenica whom you

 6     mentioned?

 7        A.   Yes, he was.

 8        Q.   And is Golic is multiple murderer?

 9        A.   I don't know whether he is or isn't.  I didn't socialise with

10     Golic.  I don't know, I can't say.

11        Q.   And who was the boss of Srebrenica at that time?

12        A.   Well, who?  The people.  Who else?  Who would be the boss?  There

13     were no bosses.  There were just poor people.  I went without salt for

14     months.  And you can only be a boss if you have a lot of money.

15        Q.   Well, who was the main authority in Srebrenica?

16        A.   Well, the head of the municipality was, and he's the same one

17     that is the head now, when Srebrenica fell.

18        Q.   Were there a lot of mutual killings in Srebrenica?

19        A.   I don't know.  Maybe the odd one, but I didn't see anybody kill

20     anybody else in that way.

21        Q.   And have you heard of Nurif Rizvanovic?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Do you accept that he was killed by a group belonging to

24     Naser Oric?

25        A.   I heard about that, but I didn't see it.

Page 1421

 1        Q.   And were weapons brought in to Srebrenica during the war?

 2        A.   I don't know that either.  I'm small fry.  I was a small fish in

 3     Srebrenica.

 4        Q.   Witness, let's move on to 1995 straight away.  That would be

 5     better, because there is a great deal of contradiction -- many

 6     contradictions that I'm going to submit to the Trial Chamber in an

 7     acceptable form in due course.

 8             Now, you said that you never heard or saw any fighting before the

 9     11th of July around Srebrenica; is that right?

10        A.   That's right, and there wasn't any fighting then either.  The

11     people left without any fighting.

12        Q.   You said, in the transcript of the 11th of March trial, 2010,

13     T-513 to T-5873, page 519, I believe it is -- this is what you said:

14             "Everybody decided to flee --"

15             [In English] " ... on July the 11th, 1995.  Nobody remained in

16     Srebrenica.  Nobody dared to remain, except handicapped people, which

17     they, the Serbian forces, probably killed if they came across such

18     handicapped people.  Everybody else had to leave."

19             [Interpretation] Now, Witness, did the Serb Army really kill

20     somebody who was handicapped in Srebrenica?

21        A.   Well, I think so.  There was a man from my village.  His son took

22     him out.  He might have been between the ages of 75 and 80.  He wasn't an

23     invalid, but he couldn't stand on his legs.  And they said that they took

24     him to in front of a building, and the Serb Army turned up that day.

25     Now, the man wasn't transferred anywhere, so I assume he was destroyed,

Page 1422

 1     killed, straight away.

 2        Q.   Could you just tell me what you know about and not what you

 3     think?

 4        A.   Well, there's no sign of him.  He wasn't exchanged, so I assume

 5     that the first people who turned up killed him.  Now, whether there was

 6     anybody else, I don't know.  I know about this man.  He stayed behind.

 7        Q.   Witness, you very often say that you never saw somebody anymore.

 8     Does that mean that you know he was killed?  He might have been sent home

 9     or transferred somewhere else?

10        A.   Well, I know his family, and his son was there.  He lived next to

11     me after the fall of Srebrenica as a refugee.  His father never appeared

12     anymore.  One of his sons was in Tuzla, and that son who took him out of

13     the house wasn't able to relocate.

14        Q.   Witness, Mr. Nicholls said yesterday that your brother, who was

15     handicapped, managed to reach a vehicle, to board a vehicle, and to go to

16     Kladanj or Tuzla.  Anyway, to cross over to Muslim territory.  Now, did

17     he manage to do that on his own or was he enabled that?

18        A.   Well, he was just lucky, because they separated the people to one

19     side, and when his turn came, a soldier said to him -- he said, Get up

20     onto the truck, whereas he had two crutches and said, I can't jump onto

21     the truck.  And then somebody else said, There's a bus for you, and he

22     boarded the bus.  And a Roma, a gypsy, said -- he said - Zarko, I think

23     that's what his name was - they separated my son, and he said, Call them.

24     And when the gypsy's son came by, another van came by too, and they

25     managed to board the bus and were transported else somewhere.

Page 1423

 1        Q.   Now, you said that everybody decide to do leave Srebrenica on the

 2     11th.  That's what you say in one place.  And in another place, in the

 3     Popovic trial, transcript of the 25th and 6th of August - 742 is the page

 4     number - you say that somebody came and said, Now, people, we have to

 5     leave Srebrenica.

 6        A.   No, no, nobody said that.  The people decided what they were

 7     going to do amongst themselves.  Nobody informed anybody of anything.

 8        Q.   And what did the people decide?

 9        A.   Well, of course, the people decided to take to the woods and go

10     that way.

11        Q.   Now we have two groups of people.  You're talking about the ones

12     who decided to take to the woods and move towards Tuzla and fight.  And

13     what about the civilians who decided to go to the United Nations on the

14     11th?

15        A.   Well, many people left, the women and children.  It was only one

16     woman who didn't manage to reach Potocari.  But, anyway, the people in

17     Potocari suffered the same fate as the others that took to the woods.

18     Very few people managed to cross over.

19        Q.   Thank you.  I would like to know now who helped you, the

20     civilians, to reach Potocari.

21        A.   Well, there were vehicles, trucks from Srebrenica.  I don't know

22     whether it was UNPROFOR, but it was the trucks that were in Srebrenica.

23     People who could walk walked, of course.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Nicholls.

25             MR. NICHOLLS:  Can Mr. Karadzic check his cite, page 742, and let

Page 1424

 1     me know if he's talking about a different page of the transcript?  The

 2     witness there does not say somebody came and told him to leave.  He says:

 3             "We took the decision ourselves."

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] This is the citation, The Popovic

 5     case:

 6             "People, we've got to leave Srebrenica."

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Who is it that said that?

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   You said that someone had said that.

10        A.   No, no, no.  No one said, People, we've got to leave Srebrenica.

11     The people left the upper part of Srebrenica a day before.  They all

12     withdrew to the area where the hospital was.  And from then on there was

13     a lot of commotion.  People didn't know what they wanted to do, and then

14     they decided themselves, the people, to go through the woods.

15        Q.   You're talking about the group that went with the army through

16     the woods.  First of all, let us establish now, when did people get to

17     Potocari; how did they get there, and on whose decision?

18        A.   People went to Potocari on the 11th of July.  They all left

19     Srebrenica on the 11th of July.  They went to Potocari, and we went

20     through the woods.

21        Q.   Witness, did UNPROFOR help you?  Did they help the people get to

22     Potocari?

23        A.   I don't know.  I just know that when I was leaving Srebrenica, a

24     shell fell near the UNPROFOR base, and that's when people jumped onto

25     trucks.  I think that they tore up the tarpaulin because they were so

Page 1425

 1     afraid.  A man went with me.  He parted from his daughter.  His daughter

 2     stayed on, crying, and we set out through the woods.

 3        Q.   Your handicapped brother, did he stay in Srebrenica, or did he go

 4     to Potocari?

 5        A.   He went to Potocari.  A disabled man, who had only one arm, drove

 6     him to Potocari on a truck.

 7        Q.   Witness, you say that you gathered in Susnjari?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   How many people were there?

10        A.   Well, our estimate was that there were about 15.000 people there,

11     perhaps a bit more than that.

12        Q.   That's your estimate; right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   How many of them were armed?

15        A.   I don't know, I don't know.  Maybe about 400 rifles.

16        Q.   Rifles, how come?  How come they had rifles all of a sudden?

17        A.   I don't know.  I was from the third municipality.  I really

18     didn't know these people anyway.  But it was so fortunate.  Perhaps they

19     had hidden those rifles.  Those people who had rifles then managed to get

20     through.  Those who didn't have rifles are still lying in mass graves, or

21     perhaps they're lying in Tuzla, in those bags, whatever.

22        Q.   The journey through the woods, had it been organised?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   However, when you testified in Krstic, transcript page -- it's

25     actually the 11th and 12th of April, 2000.  The page reference is 2652.

Page 1426

 1     You said that the commanders knew about that, that the commanders had to

 2     know about that, about this decision to go through the woods?

 3        A.   No, no.  When we all gathered in Susnjari, of course this column

 4     set out and you couldn't even notice that they were leaving.  Of course,

 5     these top people most probably -- well, I'm not saying.  I left Susnjari

 6     with the last group.  Now, did they agree how they left?  I have no idea.

 7     There were too many people there.  During the night, the column set out,

 8     and I left perhaps in the late afternoon hours on the following day.

 9        Q.   A column was established in Susnjari; right?  What date?

10        A.   Well, we arrived on the 11th, so approximately on the 11th, in

11     the evening.  That means that I left Susnjari on the 12th.

12        Q.   How many people were there in this column?

13        A.   I don't know.  I'm telling you, no one could see how big the

14     column was.  It was being established non-stop, and people were leaving

15     in that way.

16        Q.   Then you went through the Buljin forest; right?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   There are some things that are unclear here.  Where was your

19     brother?  At one point, you lost him, and then you found him again.  What

20     can you say about that?

21        A.   Well, we were moving through Buljin, and then we could see

22     everything.  When night fell, I did not sleep.  I didn't sleep that

23     night.  That night, in the evening, I lay underneath a birch tree and I

24     slept there.  When I got up at dawn, my brother was there.  One group was

25     moving forwards, the other group was moving backwards.  I moved a bit

Page 1427

 1     back, and then I moved ahead again, and then I found my brother over

 2     there.

 3        Q.   In the Popovic case, the 24th and 25th of August - the page

 4     number is 648 - you said that you found your brother and that you sat

 5     there.

 6        A.   Yes, yes, we sat there all day, practically.

 7        Q.   Throughout the 13th?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Later on, you say, in your statement or your interview before the

10     investigating judge of the Higher Court in Tuzla on the 29th of July,

11     1995, page 5 -- this is what you say.  It's translated into English:

12             [In English] "The column was formed again and started going into

13     the direction of Konjevic Polje, through the woods above Kamenica."

14             [Interpretation] Is that what you said?

15        A.   No, no.  When we set out towards Kamenica, that's when we decided

16     to surrender.  In the woods -- we were still in the woods.  We did not

17     see a single field until the Serbs called out to us, telling us that we

18     had to surrender.

19        Q.   However, in Popovic, on the 25th, on page 643, you say something

20     similar to what you're saying here now:

21             "No, I don't even know --"

22             [In English] "... No, I don't even know what Kamenica is.  I only

23     told you that we passed through a torched village, and we knew that was a

24     Muslim village because it had been torched, and we were supposed to

25     surrender there."

Page 1428

 1             [Interpretation] Is it correct that you don't know what Kamenica

 2     is?

 3        A.   No, no.  To this day, I don't know where this village of Kamenice

 4     is.  It's not Kamenica, it's Kamenice.  It belongs to Konjevic Polje up

 5     there by Pobudje.

 6        Q.   You say that you saw some bodies of persons who were killed, and

 7     in the Popovic case - the transcript page is 843 - you say that you saw

 8     about 50 bodies by the road?

 9        A.   Yes, yes.

10        Q.   However, in the Tolimir case, the transcript of the 11th of

11     March, 2010, page 522 -- 513 up until 584, page 10 specifically, you

12     said:

13             [In English] "I could see many corpse of civilians in the woods

14     to the right of the road where we were on.  To the left, there was a

15     slope, and so I did not see many corpses in that direction.  I do not

16     know how those people were killed.  I saw a man lying in group of two or

17     three, and some bodies were dismembered.  I think there were more than

18     500 corpses in the woods."

19        A.   No, no, that's not what I said, no.  I didn't say that anybody

20     had been massacred, no.  I don't remember -- Tolimir didn't even ask me

21     about that, I think.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, it is time for a break?  I have to

23     ask, how much longer do you have?

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Excellency, I moved quickly

25     through many things, through many inconsistencies that certainly bring

Page 1429

 1     into question a great deal of this testimony.  However, now we are

 2     getting to a period that is full of all sorts of unbelievable stories,

 3     and I would hope at least for one more session.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  You spent more than four hours already.  I would

 5     expect you to conclude in half an hour in the next session.

 6             Mr. Nicholls, are you in the position to answer the question as

 7     to the map, UNPROFOR map?

 8             MR. NICHOLLS:  No, Your Honour.  I'm not familiar with this map.

 9     I'm looking for it, as I can in the courtroom.  I don't -- it doesn't

10     have an ERN.  I haven't seen this map.  I will check during the break.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we mark for identification for the time being?

12             MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE KWON:  And the number is ...?

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be D69, MFI.

15             JUDGE KWON:  And I have one further question to Mr. Nicholls, is

16     whether you are following the page number Mr. Karadzic is referring to.

17     I couldn't find the passages on the page he referred to.

18             MR. NICHOLLS:  I have not -- I have not been able to find the

19     passages on the pages, and I was going to ask --

20             JUDGE KWON:  During the break, could you liaise with Mr. Robinson

21     and the accused to check this, to sort it out?

22             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Twenty-five minutes from now.

24                           --- Recess taken at 3.39 p.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 4.06 p.m.

Page 1430

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.  We have a new member.

 2             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, we're joined by Mr. Patrick Hayden.

 3     Thank you.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Welcome, Mr. Patrick [sic].

 5             Mr. Karadzic, let's continue.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7             Before I start, I'd just like to give the references, the one

 8     that I gave at the last session.  Popovic, the 25th of August, 2006, when

 9     they said:

10             "People, people," that's what you say in our language, "we have

11     to leave Srebrenica."

12             That is 17 -- page 17.  What is this?  Oh, line 17.  814 is the

13     page.  The date is the 25th of August, 2006.

14             Krstic is as follows:  "Commanders had to know about it."

15             11th of April, 2000, line 5, page 2652.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Let's go on, let's move on.

17             My apologies, Mr. Hayden.  I should hear Mr. Tieger out.

18             Let's go on.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Witness, a moment ago you said something that confused me, that

21     there was no fighting and that some people had left even before the 11th,

22     that is to say, on the 9th and 10th.  Are you trying to say that

23     Srebrenica was not defended, that it was abandoned?

24        A.   No, it was not defended.

25        Q.   It was not defended?  So the Serbs were simply allowed to walk

Page 1431

 1     in?

 2        A.   Of course.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Witness, as I said, your statements differ in many

 4     details, practically all of them, but I don't have time to deal with all

 5     of that.  I'd like to put something to you.

 6             When you described your column, you said there was a column, and

 7     at the very rear there was a white vehicle of the United Nations.  That

 8     is precisely what the column looked like, the one that consisted of

 9     civilians going to Kladanj.  Sir, did you go to Kladanj or to Zvornik?

10        A.   No, no.  Who said that the column went with this white vehicle?

11     The white vehicle could be seen in Divic, in front of the

12     Vidikovac Hotel.  No, no, I did not go to Kladanj.  I went to Zvornik.

13        Q.   Sir, no theft of a UN vehicle was registered at the time, and you

14     said that there was this vehicle escorting you at the very rear of the

15     column.

16        A.   No, no, no.  The vehicle went to the very front.  We saw the

17     vehicle as we were moving from the quarry.  We were moving towards Divic,

18     from that tunnel.  I saw that vehicle in the school-yard.  It is

19     100 per cent certain that it had been taken away from UNPROFOR.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

21             MR. NICHOLLS:  Again, Your Honour, I object to the comments, such

22     as, There were many, many inconsistencies, but I won't have time to deal

23     with them.  That could have been any inconsistencies he finds, he should

24     have dealt with.  Again, we're not getting citations at all for this

25     column.  And it's not accurate, from any memory I have, what's been put

Page 1432

 1     to the witness.  And, again, the last cite we got, as far as I can tell,

 2     was incorrect, and I want to put on the record that the representation of

 3     what was said in the Tolimir trial about 500 corpses is not -- in the

 4     woods, is not there either.  So I'd ask for some care and precision in

 5     the cross.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Did you understand, Mr. Karadzic?

 7             Then your general submission, for example, stating that there

 8     were many contradictions in general does not help the Chamber at all.

 9     Let's move on.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] I'm prepared to provide this in

11     writing to the Trial Chamber; what this relates to, that is.

12        Q.   Witness, you said that they were shouting.  You said that -- you

13     said they were shouting, saying, Take them to Alija, although you said

14     "Halija."  Serbs do not use the phoneme H as much as the Muslims do.  We

15     usually think that you use the H more than we do.  Take them to Fikret

16     and Halija, so they can be exchanged.

17        A.   Mr. Karadzic, that was when we spent the night in Bratunac, when

18     they killed whoever they wanted to.  For the most part, they were looking

19     for people from well-known villages around Srebrenica.  In the morning

20     when at dawn, they said, Now take them either to Fikret or to Halija and

21     have them exchanged.

22        Q.   Vujadin Popovic, the transcript of the 24th and 25th of August,

23     2006.  668 is the page reference.  Which Fikret did you mean?

24        A.   They probably meant Fikret Abdic.  I don't know what other Fikret

25     they could have meant.

Page 1433

 1        Q.   Witness, do you know that at that point in time, Fikret Abdic and

 2     Alija Izetbegovic were sworn enemies, and Fikret Abdic was a Serb ally?

 3        A.   Yes, he was a Serb ally then.  They probably meant Fikret Abdic.

 4     That's what I think.  But they did not say that.  They didn't say, Take

 5     them to Fikret Abdic and Alija Izetbegovic.  They just said, Take them to

 6     Halija and Fikret.

 7        Q.   There is no other prominent Fikret; right?

 8        A.   There isn't?  I don't know.  I mean, there may be.  Perhaps you

 9     know of one.  I don't.

10        Q.   Furthermore, Witness, you said that there were some Arkan's men

11     there?

12        A.   Yes, yes.

13        Q.   You're the only person mentioning Arkan's men --

14             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  For the Prosecution to be able to

15     follow, you should give the page reference.

16             Yes, Mr. Nicholls.  Is that what you --

17             MR. NICHOLLS:  That was it, Your Honour.  I was wondering where

18     we are in the chronology of the witness's evidence.  He just says, There

19     were Arkan's men there.  I believe there is a reference.  I think I know

20     where he's looking for, but I need the page reference.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] That was the transcript of the

22     11th of March, 2010, in the Tolimir trial.  526 is the page number.

23     About Arkan's men.

24        Q.   Now, Witness, you are the only person who could have envisaged

25     Mladic and Arkan's men as being together on a territory covering

Page 1434

 1     100 kilometres at that time in July 2005 [as interpreted].  There were no

 2     Arkan's men at that time.

 3        A.   Where we were taken prisoner in the field, when they replaced

 4     each other, those who left said, These are Arkan's men.  So the soldiers

 5     who were there first, and then were replaced by the others, said, These

 6     are Arkan's men.  I didn't say it.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

 8             MR. NICHOLLS:  And, Your Honours, again this is where we come

 9     back to the guide-lines which ought to be followed, which are not to

10     paraphrase or summarise the witness's prior statement, but as much as

11     possible to read back.

12             Now, the witness has answered the question.  But if you look at

13     the citation, the witness did not say, These are -- it was put to him

14     that he had said that Arkan's men were there.  We don't know where

15     "there" is because of the way the question is phrased, but in context

16     it's at Sandici Meadow.  That is not what the witness said in his prior

17     testimony.  What the witness said is that he was -- that another group

18     was supposed to come, and this group of soldiers said something like,

19     Well, here are Arkan's men.

20             So the guide-lines would prohibit this type of changing the

21     evidence, and, again, that these questions should be put precisely.

22             JUDGE KWON:  I agree.  Try to be precise in citing the previous

23     testimony, Mr. Karadzic.  And I take it that "2005" should read "1995."

24     Let's move on.

25             Thank you, Mr. Nicholls.

Page 1435

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, the witness

 2     confirmed, when asked by me, that he said that, but I don't have time.

 3     But let me tell you.  He said, Well, here are Arkan's men.  And that is

 4     on the 11th of March, in the Tolimir trial, 2010, page 526.  And then he

 5     said further on:

 6             [In English] "Later, this unit that guarded the prisoners was

 7     replaced by another unit of approximately 50 armed with automatic rifles,

 8     and the guards told us, before they left, that this unit consisted of

 9     Arkan troops.  Witness in the breaks was not able to see their insignias.

10     These other soldiers had the same camouflage battle dresses and the same

11     type of equipment than those who left."

12             [Interpretation] That, then, was stated in the witness's

13     statement of the 14th and 15th of August, 1995.

14        Q.   Now, Witness, you spent the whole day of the 13th in the woods;

15     right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   When did you surrender?

18        A.   Well, I think I surrendered -- well, they gave us an ultimatum.

19     The first ultimatum was in the 10.00.  The second one was until after

20     4.00.  We went to surrender.  Now, how long that was, well, it was just

21     before nightfall.

22        Q.   And what was the date of the surrender?

23        A.   I think it was the 13th.

24        Q.   You think or you know?

25        A.   Well, the 13th, of course.  We set out on the 12th, and on the

Page 1436

 1     13th we surrendered.

 2        Q.   Where did you surrender, what place?

 3        A.   I think it was around Sandici, that general area.

 4        Q.   And do you know who lives in Sandici?

 5        A.   Nobody lived there then.  The Muslims used to live there, but at

 6     that time nobody was living there.

 7        Q.   But aren't the Sandici a Serb village?

 8        A.   Well, it might be, but there are a lot of Muslims too.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] With your permission, I'd like to

10     show the witness a document that we received last night, written by

11     Mr. Naser Oric personally, in his own handwriting.  I'll read it out

12     first:

13             "Conditions linked to Sandici.  We cannot fulfill.  We agree to

14     an all-for-all change and an exchange without weapons; to the contrary,

15     we won't feed your people, and we will act summarily."

16             The commander of Srebrenica, and the date is the 10th of June.

17     You see what happened to Sandici?

18             Now, this phrase, "po kratkom postupku" or "summarily," what does

19     it mean in our language?

20        A.   What date?

21        Q.   The 10th of June, 1992.  But what does this phrase mean, when

22     Oric means, We'll deal with your people summarily, we're not going to

23     feed them?  What does that mean?

24        A.   Well, I don't know.  Kravica came before Sandici.  He couldn't

25     reach Sandici through Kravica the way you say.

Page 1437

 1        Q.   But, Witness, he had captured people?

 2        A.   It's a long way from Srebrenica.  It belongs to Bratunac.

 3        Q.   Well, Kravica belongs to Bratunac too, and Naser Oric attacked

 4     it.

 5        A.   Well, everything belongs to everyone.  If they attacked others,

 6     then those others attacked them, and that's quite normal.  Now,

 7     Naser Oric would have been in 1992 what people were in 1995.

 8        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Just tell me, what does this phrase in our

 9     language mean, "summarily," "po kratkom postupku"?

10        A.   I don't know that Mr. Naser Oric signed that, and I can guarantee

11     that he had nothing to do with Sandici at that time.  I can say that for

12     certain, I guarantee that, because Naser Oric was incapacitated in 1992.

13     He was under siege.  If he could capture somebody, that's all he could

14     do.  He couldn't get a single bullet from anybody.

15        Q.   I'm not asking you that.  I'm asking you what this phrase means

16     in our language.

17        A.   Well, I don't know, whether to kill them or release them.  But I

18     don't believe that Naser Oric wrote this at all.

19        Q.   Do you summarily execute someone or release them?  Tell me that.

20        A.   Well, you know that best because you carried out those things

21     summarily with Srebrenica in 1995.  So you can -- you're the best placed

22     to explain that phrase to the Trial Chamber here.

23        Q.   Thank you, Witness.  We haven't got too much time, and everyone

24     knows what "summarily" means.  "Po kratkom postupku" means that execution

25     is to take place summarily, summary execution.

Page 1438

 1        A.   Well, were we to blame for you to execute us?  Were we to blame

 2     for anything?  Were we guilty of anything?  We were only guilty for

 3     having been expelled from our house because we were Bosniaks and not

 4     Serbs, and because that was your plan, to create an ethnic territory and

 5     to create a Greater Serbia, because your president, Slobodan Milosevic,

 6     always said, We want all the Serbs to live in a single state.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, this is not a place where you are

 8     giving your evidence.  You just put your question to the witness.  Having

 9     heard the answer, you can ask another question, but do not put your

10     statement.  That is not helpful to the Chamber.

11             How much longer do you have?

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] About 10 minutes.  I hope I'll be

13     able to fit within the time-limit.  I can't extend it, but I'd like to

14     move on to another place, Grabovci or whatever.

15        Q.   Now, Witness, you say -- I can't find it now, but you say that

16     you drove up-hill along that route.

17        A.   No, no.  Tell me where it says that.  What road, what route, in

18     what direction?

19        Q.   How much time did you spend in Bratunac?

20        A.   I spent the whole night in Bratunac, and at dawn we left

21     Bratunac.  Now, when we set off from Bratunac towards Andagina Njiva, we

22     went up the hill, and that's the only time that you could notice the

23     column.  You couldn't notice it anywhere else.  I was in a trailer truck.

24     So only when it goes uphill and downhill were you able to see anything.

25   (redacted)

Page 1439

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Sir, just a second.

 9             Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

10             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could we go into private session for one moment?

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

12                           [Private session]

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 1440

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13                           [Open session]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  We're now in open session, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

16             Sir, the question is why you did not contact him.  Why didn't you

17     go up to him?  Now you can answer the question.

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23             JUDGE KWON:  Would you bear that in mind, not to name the

24     specific names.  Do you understand?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can't say it in any other

Page 1441

 1     way.  How can I say it?

 2             JUDGE KWON:  We shall go into private session briefly, and we

 3     will redact from line 2 to 6.

 4                           [Private session]

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 1442

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3                           [Open session]

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6        Q.   Now, Witness, the driver who drove you from Konjevic Polje to

 7     Bratunac, is it the same driver who drove you further?

 8        A.   Yes, yes, that driver drove us from the time we were loaded up to

 9     Bratunac and Orahovac.

10        Q.   And his name was Saban.

11        A.   No, no, Saban was the one who was killed, who was in my truck,

12     and who told us when we reached Bratunac, he was the driver -- he was the

13     driver of a company.  We were driven by a Serb, not by Saban.

14        Q.   Now, let's go to school.  They blindfolded you; right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Where did they put the blindfolds on your eyes?

17        A.   Well, in the school.

18        Q.   Did they tie your hands?

19        A.   No, just a blindfold over my eyes.

20        Q.   And what was this blindfold made from?

21        A.   Well, I don't know.  Some cloth from some shirts or whatever.

22        Q.   And you say that you took the blindfolds off from time to time?

23        A.   Yes, while people were getting up onto the truck.  And later on,

24     when the truck set out, we had to put them on again.  Well, they asked,

25     Where are you taking the people to?  And they said, To Bijeljina, to the

Page 1443

 1     camp.  And the people didn't ask anymore.  And not to be abused anymore,

 2     we put our blindfolds back on ourselves when the truck set off.

 3        Q.   You put the blindfold on yourselves.  Why?

 4        A.   Well, we were afraid because there was one man with a red beret.

 5     And whether he was sitting with the driver, I don't know, but he was

 6     there, anyway.

 7        Q.   There was a total of four of them; right?

 8        A.   Which ones?

 9        Q.   Well, you said there were four of them.

10        A.   No, no, there were more.  But when the dredger -- the man

11     operating the dredger said he wasn't going to stay behind, three men

12     stayed behind, and then they were told to go to the other field to kill

13     the other men.  But three of them were called by name, and the other one,

14     the fourth one, by nickname.

15        Q.   Thank you.  What did they use to shoot with?

16        A.   Well, automatic weapons.

17        Q.   Before you came there, were there corpses there already?

18        A.   Yes, there was a mass of corpses.  Half a hall full had left.

19        Q.   Explain this to us.  So you entered, and they put blindfolds over

20     your eyes.  You went across a ramp, into a TAM truck; right?

21        A.   Yes.  In the hall, there's an auxiliary building, and they

22     knocked down a wall there and pushed the truck up against this wall, like

23     a ramp.  Now, were they afraid that the civilians would see what they

24     were doing and tell someone?  I don't know.  But, anyway, I saw on the

25     spot that this wall had been broken down when I toured the area, and it

Page 1444

 1     was made of concrete.

 2        Q.   So your eyes were blindfolded, and then you got into the vehicle;

 3     right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   How many steps can you take if you're blindfolded?

 6        A.   Well, it was very near.  You just took two steps and you were in

 7     the vehicle, in the car.

 8        Q.   And where were the bodies lying, the corpses?

 9        A.   Well, they were all -- scattered all over the field, because the

10     people dropped down in the field.  And when that location was full, they

11     went to this other meadow which had been mown.

12        Q.   And what was the dredger doing there?

13        A.   Digging a hole.

14        Q.   Sir, if I tell you that you were not there, what is your answer

15     going to be?

16        A.   I was there, and I'm saying that with 100 per cent certainty.  I

17     went there.  I can guarantee that to you, 100 per cent sure.  And if you

18     are guaranteeing something, then that is for yourself to say.  I know

19     that you can say anything, that what is true is not and the other way

20     around.

21        Q.   Sir, you said that young soldiers told you, and you said that --

22     let's have a look now.  You said that -- Radislav Krstic, on the 11th and

23     12th of April, 2000, page 2683, 2683.  And you said earlier on in the

24     witness interview before the investigating judge in the Higher Court in

25     Tuzla on the 29th of July, 1995, that these soldiers had said that they

Page 1445

 1     were Karadzic's young Chetniks?

 2        A.   Yes, someone addressed them who was closer to them, Soldier,

 3     that's what somebody said, and they said, No, we are not soldiers; we are

 4     Karadzic's bare-faced Chetniks.  And they were very young.  They must

 5     have been even younger than 18.  I guess they were so poisoned that they

 6     wanted to hold their rifles high up at the door, and they would sometimes

 7     just fire at walls.

 8        Q.   Witness, do you know that Karadzic abolished the Chetniks and the

 9     Partisans?

10        A.   Mr. Karadzic, we did not dare tell them that they were Chetniks.

11     They used that word for themselves.  And you know that some people are

12     proud of the Chetnik name.  You know, thank God, that Serbia equated

13     Partisans and Chetniks.  So that's it, one thing.

14        Q.   How do you explain that there is a pit and that corpses are on

15     the meadow?

16        A.   Mr. Karadzic, that night they did not bury anyone.  When I

17     escaped, they were on the other side of the railroad.  I didn't know.

18     When I started running along the railroad, as I started running up, I

19     thought it was a fly -over.  There were cornfields there.  In 1999, when

20     I went to the site, there was still some corn there, there was some corn

21     husks left.

22        Q.   You said that you saw that friend of yours, that colleague of

23     yours.  You said that in the interview, when you spoke to

24     Mr. Kruzevski [phoen] in relation to the interview of the 26th of

25     January, 1998, and the 4th of January, 1999.  This is what you said:

Page 1446

 1             [In English] "And, furthermore, he stated that he did not

 2     see [indiscernible] who is mentioned in the following paragraph, and he

 3     only recognised his nasal voice."

 4             [Interpretation] So you just heard his voice.  But did you say in

 5     that same testimony that you did not see any soldier.

 6   A.   No, no.  It was night-time.  (redacted) -- well, there I go mentioning

 7     him now.  Yes, I recognised his voice.  That's 100 per cent sure.  They

 8     were calling out to each other by names, because if you know a man for

 9     15 years, as soon as he starts speaking, even if he's in a different

10     room, and if you can hear him, you can recognise his voice.

11             JUDGE KWON:  If you rise because of line 14, that will be taken

12     care of.

13             MR. NICHOLLS:  No, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

15             MR. NICHOLLS:  I thought that would be taken care of.  It's just,

16     for clarity, talking about the statement which was just put to the

17     witness, 26th of January, 1998, I think just to be clear, the witness

18     does say he saw soldiers who were young, less than 20 years of age, when

19     he's talking about the gym at Orahovac, and later on he says that when he

20     recognised the voice of the colleague, at that point he did not see

21     soldiers that were behind him.  So I just think it's important to --

22             JUDGE KWON:  I think it was clear already from his answer.

23             MR. NICHOLLS:  I apologise, then.  I did not --

24             JUDGE KWON:  Okay, let's move on.

25             Mr. Karadzic.

Page 1447

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Witness, after that you encountered a Serb soldier, and you

 3     walked with him for a while.  You knew who he was, and he didn't know who

 4     you were; right?

 5        A.   No, no.  It was my suspicion that it was a Serb soldier, but it

 6     wasn't.  It was a Bosniak.

 7        Q.   And then you say that they were looking for you all night.

 8     That's what you said?

 9        A.   No, no, no.  They did not look for me all night; perhaps for a

10     moment or for a minute or two, they started looking for me.  They tried

11     to look for me, but they didn't look for me all night.

12        Q.   Well, this is what you said.

13        A.   No, no, no, sir.  The man who saw me there, I spent the night

14     there when I fled.  The next day, that same man saw me.  But even on the

15     next day, he did not introduce himself to me, and again I ran away from

16     him.

17        Q.   This is what you said:  Witness statement of the 13th and 14th of

18     August, 1995, pages 8 and 9, and you stated the following:

19             [In English] "He took his weapon and his bag, and I took some

20     small piece of army equipment that I could not recognise.  He started

21     walking in front of me, and I followed him.  I let him take some

22     distance, and then I started to run away.  After a short distance, I hide

23     in some bushes.  The Serb soldier, apparently joined by some others, was

24     looking for me for some time, and they gave up.  In the dawn, I decided

25     to continue walking, and the Serb who was obviously looking for me the

Page 1448

 1     whole night saw me at the moment and shouted me to stop.  I succeeded in

 2     running away, and he didn't shoot."

 3             [Interpretation] How is it that you know now that he's not a

 4     Serb, but you stated then, when your memory was fresh in 1995, that he

 5     had been a Serb?

 6        A.   No, no.  I'm going to explain it to you now.  This is the way it

 7     was:  When I got there, I knew roughly where that place was.  It was

 8     free.  When I walked up to the first meadow that had been mown, I asked

 9     him, Is this such and such a guard?  And he said, Yes.  And he asked,

10     Where are you going?  I'm going from Srebrenica.  Is there anybody else

11     with you?  No.  And then he had some insignia on his clothing.  He asked

12     me whether I smoked, and at that time I did smoke.  And he said, Take a

13     cigarette.  His cigarettes were down there.  I mean, he didn't even want

14     to offer me a cigarette from his very own hand, but I did take a

15     cigarette.  And he said that he was from the Sarajevo Romanija Corps, and

16     I was afraid that he was a Serb soldier when I heard that.

17             Otherwise, afterwards, perhaps a month or two later, a cousin of

18     mine talked about something, and this man said, Well, you ask him whether

19     I gave him a cigarette to light up or not.  Well, it was only then that I

20     realised he was a Bosniak, that he was not a Serb.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Excellencies, I'm not going to go

22     any further.  I really don't want to go into minute details, because all

23     of these minute details constitute a major inconsistency, and I've been

24     telling the witness that all along.

25        Q.   Sir, I believe that for some reason you are a favourite witness,

Page 1449

 1     but you were not at the execution site, that you were not saved, and that

 2     nothing was the way you put it.  What do you say to that?

 3        A.   Karadzic, when you are saying that as if that is the truth, may

 4     you look at your own children dead.  When you see them dead, the way

 5     mothers did when their children were killed, and this is going to be

 6     confirmed to you by a witness who found clothing by the grave -- could

 7     the Judge please move into closed session so that I tell you where they

 8     were found, those people there?  Because, I mean, I would have to reveal

 9     the identity of the village.  So let them just move into closed session

10     so that I can tell you where the blindfolds were found.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  I take it -- Mr. Nicholls, do you have

12     some redirect?

13             MR. NICHOLLS:  No, Your Honour.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, this handwritten

15     note of Naser Oric that we got late last night, is it acceptable?  Can it

16     be admitted into evidence?  We will have it translated.  I think it has

17     been translated.  No, it hasn't yet.  I mean, this handwritten note where

18     he confirms that he is going to execute the Serbs from Sandici.

19             JUDGE KWON:  We'll deal with it when the witness will be excused.

20             Sir, now your evidence has been concluded.  On behalf of the

21     Chamber and the Tribunal, I would like to thank you for your coming all

22     the way to The Hague to give it several times.  We do appreciate very

23     much.

24             Now you are free to go.

25             Yes, Mr. Nicholls.  Yes, let's wait for some time.

Page 1450

 1                           [The witness withdrew]

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

 3             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honour, I'd object to the document being

 4     admitted at this time.  Obviously, it was not on the list.  I know that

 5     happens sometimes.  If the document came in last night, I don't know why

 6     I wasn't given a copy until the last break.  I asked, just when it was

 7     handed, some information about what this is, where it was from, and was

 8     told nothing.  So there's no providence, there's no translation.  I don't

 9     know where it's from, and this witness didn't know anything about it.  So

10     I don't think it should be marked at this time.

11             JUDGE KWON:  So do you like it to be marked for identification

12     instead of being rejected?

13             MR. NICHOLLS:  At this time, I think there's no foundation for it

14     to come in at all.  It should be rejected, Your Honour.  It can be

15     marked --

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             MR. NICHOLLS:  It could be marked simply for the record to show

18     what document we're talking about.

19             JUDGE KWON:  For the purpose of just the translation, we'll mark

20     it for identification and see.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be MFI D70.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

23             Okay.  Before we hear the evidence of the next witness, I

24     understand that Mr. Robinson has something to raise.

25             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes.  Thank you, Mr. President.  I'll be brief.

Page 1451

 1             This is a motion for a finding of a violation of the

 2     Prosecution's disclosure obligations, as well as the remedy of

 3     postponement of the cross-examination of this witness until Monday.  So

 4     that's the motion that we're making and the remedy that we're seeking.

 5             I distributed for you a document that was disclosed to us last

 6     week, which is a memorandum from the witness, Ambassador Herbert Okun,

 7     concerning meetings he had in Sarajevo and Belgrade on the 20th of

 8     December, 1991.  Herbert Okun is a witness who has been listed for a long

 9     time in this case.  He's testified in 2003 in the Milosevic case, 2004 in

10     the Krajisnik case.  And as far as we know, this memorandum was never

11     disclosed until last week.

12             The Prosecution had been ordered to disclose all statements of

13     its witnesses on the 20th of May, 2009, and of course it's under an

14     obligation, under Rule 68, to make disclosure as soon as practicable.

15             I point out that Ambassador Okun's testimony is primarily

16     concerning the number of meetings he had with different people in Bosnia

17     and Belgrade, including Dr. Karadzic, who he was meeting with on 36

18     separate occasions, and there has been no disclose of any memorandum by

19     him of those meetings, other than this one.  And in this memorandum, on

20     page 5, it indicates that Dr. Karadzic told him that:

21             "We will not fire the first shot, and assured me that I'm a

22     doctor and a poet and not a soldier."

23             And this was in December of 1991, before the fighting started in

24     Bosnia.  It also indicates that Mr. Okun had a meeting with

25     President Izetbegovic on that same day, and the president told him that

Page 1452

 1     they were very surprised and taken aback by the European Community's

 2     requirement that they submit their application for independence by the

 3     following Monday, and they would have preferred to have waited until they

 4     could negotiate, but they were left with no choice from the

 5     European Community, and that Germany and the European Community had

 6     turned the process on its head, making the other steps more difficult.

 7     And this is consistent with Dr. Karadzic's position about how the war

 8     started, and we believe it's exculpatory both as to his intention -- he's

 9     alleged to be a member of the joint criminal enterprise by this period of

10     time at which there was alleged intent to commit genocide, and his

11     statements show quite the opposite.  So we believe that there has been a

12     disclosure violation, that this document was not provided to us.

13             I understand that it's a very difficult process of disclosure for

14     the Prosecution, given the number of documents, and we've said repeatedly

15     that they've done a very good job of trying to meet their disclosure

16     obligations.  But when they don't meet it, we feel there ought to be a

17     record of that and a remedy.

18             In this case, Mr. Okun is supposed to testify in chief for

19     approximately three hours, and we don't believe that the remedy of

20     postponing the cross-examination would be a particularly difficult one

21     for anyone.  But Dr. Karadzic and his team have not had any opportunity

22     at all to discuss this and the contents of this document, and to plan it

23     and insert it into the cross-examination, and we feel we should be given

24     an opportunity to do so.

25             So based upon this, again, we don't allege any bad faith

Page 1453

 1     whatsoever on the part of the Prosecution.  We would ask that there be a

 2     finding that there is a violation of disclosure obligation and, secondly,

 3     that we have this modest remedy.

 4             Thank you.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Albeit with that violation, if you could explain to

 6     me why you are not in the position, you as Defence as a whole, not in the

 7     position to start your cross-examination on the points which are not

 8     related to this document.

 9             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, we consider the cross-examination

10     to be essentially a package in which we would like to have all of the

11     material before we begin the cross-examination.  It is possible to

12     cross-examine on some topics and not others, but it's preferable for us

13     to have the entire package of information before the cross-examination

14     commences.  And we believe that, in this instance, it's a very important

15     meeting.  It's one of the very first in the chronology.  In fact it's the

16     second meeting of all -- and we think that it would be -- to commence the

17     cross-examination without this material would disrupt the preparation.

18             Again, it's not a major issue, and there's also not a major

19     remedy being requested, in terms of time, because the cross-examination

20     wouldn't likely start until sometime near the end of tomorrow in any

21     event.  So we think that if there is violations of disclosure, it ought

22     to be accompanied by some remedy, and that seems to be a very modest one

23     that we're asking for.

24             Thank you.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Who's going to deal with it?  Mr. Tieger?

Page 1454

 1             MR. TIEGER:  I'll deal with that, Your Honour.  Thank you.

 2             There's no basis, either procedurally or practically, for any

 3     delay in moving forward, certainly not based on a general tenet that

 4     somehow, for any alleged violation, that there must be a remedy.  The --

 5     I mean, I'll focus on the practical aspect of this first, and then I'll

 6     deal with the procedural aspect.

 7             With respect to the meeting that Mr. Robinson has alluded to,

 8     it's two paragraphs.  That can be, notwithstanding the suggestion that

 9     somehow it requires a rejigging of every aspect of the cross-examination,

10     incorporated into a cross-examination very quickly, a cross-examination,

11     in any event, that, as we know, will continue into next week.  There's no

12     practical basis whatsoever for continuing.

13             On a more procedural note, this was originally brought to my

14     attention as an alleged violation of Rule 66.  It is not.  I'm pleased to

15     see that it has not been advanced as such.

16             With respect to Rule 68, we disclose to the Defence on a wide

17     basis as much as possible that might be considered by them to be Rule 68,

18     but when it comes to an issue such as this, that is, we need a delay for

19     something that purports to be Rule 68, it has to be examined with a

20     practical eye in context.  There's nothing new about the allegation that

21     there was the allegation of premature recognition of Bosnia, and I would

22     note that that appears in other portions of the journals of this witness.

23     So it would already have been incorporated into the cross-examination to

24     the extent it was considered relevant by the Defence.  The same applies

25     to the rest.

Page 1455

 1             This is not a matter, one way or another, even if it crossed the

 2     threshold of somehow being a technical violation, which it does not, for

 3     a continuation of the proceedings.  That would be highly impractical and

 4     pointless.

 5             Having said that, let me also mention that I appreciate counsel's

 6     graciousness in noting the efforts that the Prosecution has made and

 7     continues to make with respect to disclosure, and I didn't want to

 8     disregard that.  But as it happens, there is, in my strong view, no

 9     reason to continue this matter.  We can take advantage of the time we

10     have, and there is no reason why the information in these two paragraphs

11     can't be quickly digested and assimilated into any proposed

12     cross-examination.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Put directly, whether you can answer the question

14     why this document had not been disclosed any earlier.

15             MR. TIEGER:  Well, I can't say, in respect of having reviewed the

16     document and making a firm decision on it.  As I said, the original point

17     of view by the Defence is that it should have come up in the course of

18     looking for Rule 66, a position, I believe, that they have abandoned, and

19     properly so, so it wouldn't have come up in that nature.  If I can easily

20     understand, given what I've said to the Court already -- [Overlapping

21     speakers].

22             JUDGE KWON:  So my question, Mr. Tieger, it was an oversight --

23     it was not omitted out of oversight, or it was on your purposeful

24     decision not to disclose this document because it does not fall upon any

25     category of the documents to be disclosed to the Defence?  What is it?

Page 1456

 1             MR. TIEGER:  This was just brought to my attention this

 2     afternoon, Your Honour.  I certainly didn't look -- personally look at

 3     this document and make a purposeful decision about it previously.  It was

 4     disclosed pursuant to a Rule 66(B) request, to which the Prosecution

 5     responded with great alacrity, as Mr. Robinson has alluded.  So it came

 6     up in response to a specific request under Rule 66(B) to which we

 7     responded very efficiently and very quickly.  What happened before that,

 8     I'm not in a position to say.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  I expected some more detailed explanation from you,

10     that -- Ambassador Okun is going to give evidence about his meeting with

11     the accused and several other leaders, and this is the very memorandum

12     which deals with such meetings, so I was wondering why such document was

13     omitted in disclosing if it is not out of oversight.  But I did not hear

14     anything in more specific terms.

15             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, in an effort to be as helpful to both

16     the Chamber and, particularly, Defence as possible, the Court will recall

17     that the Prosecution provided a list indicating those meetings that we

18     would be -- that we intended to or anticipated we would be dealing with

19     in the course of examination-in-chief.  I'm not sure what Mr. Robinson

20     was alluding to, but we did not indicate that this was one of those

21     meetings.  So it's not -- it's not that we said, We'll be dealing with

22     this meeting, and then did not provide the document addressing that

23     particular meeting.  So perhaps there's a misunderstanding in that

24     respect.

25             JUDGE KWON:  No, I didn't mean that this falls upon the 66(B)(ii)

Page 1457

 1     material.  I agree with you, it's not his statement -- prior statement of

 2     the witness.  But whether it's 68 material or not, it's certainly

 3     relevant.  I take your word.

 4             Just a second.  The Court will have a conference.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber will consider the matter during the

 7     break and will give a ruling after the break.

 8             That said, let's bring in the witness.

 9             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, with respect to the break, I have to

10     switch with Mr. Nicholls and also log on and log off.  I was wondering if

11     I could have just a few moments for that purpose.

12             JUDGE KWON:  I don't see any problem.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  If we break now, we can go on until

15     the end of today.  So it's better to take a break now, if there's no

16     opposition.

17             So we'll take 25 minutes' break now.

18                           --- Recess taken at 5.05 p.m.

19                           --- On resuming at 5.31 p.m.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

21             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, I had wondered if the Court would give

22     me one moment to slightly expand on what I said.  Part of the reason I

23     wish to do so will be incorporated into my comments.  It would be brief.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

25             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you very much.

Page 1458

 1             First of all, I wanted to do make it clear, if it wasn't clear

 2     before, that this document was disclosed on more than -- a week ago, to

 3     the best of my knowledge, I think on April 14th, so the Defence has had,

 4     what is it, nine days to determine that they needed an additional two

 5     days over the weekend to assimilate this document.  Beyond that, it

 6     should have been brought to our attention before so we wouldn't have to

 7     address it on the fly.  When it was finally brought to our attention, it

 8     was brought to our attention as a Rule 66 issue.  The Rule 68 issue was

 9     raised only during the submissions.  And in that regard, perhaps it could

10     have been clearer in saying that the Prosecution has been very clear, I

11     believe, in the course of its pre-trial brief, opening statement, and

12     every opportunity it had to make clear that the prospect of a sovereign

13     and independent Bosnia was anathema to the Bosnian Serb leadership and to

14     Mr. Karadzic.  And the circumstances giving rise to that situation,

15     however, are -- not only do not constitute Rule 68, but are basically

16     irrelevant.  And if the Court -- the argument that the factors that gave

17     rise to that situation constitute Rule 68 would lead us back to not only

18     all the events immediately preceding it, but all the way back to

19     World War II and, indeed, to the battle of Kosovo Polje.  Now, those

20     matters may occasionally be relevant in the course of examining witnesses

21     and so on, but they are not Rule 68, nor are the very factors leading to

22     the imminence or existence of a sovereign and independent Bosnia, which

23     the accused opposed.

24             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

Page 1459

 1             MR. ROBINSON:  I don't want to belabour the point very much.

 2     With respect to the timing of the disclosure, the way the Prosecution has

 3     insisted on providing disclosure is to put a CD to Mr. Karadzic at the

 4     UNDU.  And I didn't actually see this document until this morning because

 5     it's very difficult for us to get that CD from the UNDU out to someone on

 6     our team to be copied and distributed to the people on our team.  So

 7     there's a problem in the timing of disclosure, mostly because of the way

 8     the Prosecution is choosing to make that disclosure.

 9             But, in any event, this is clearly a document that we should have

10     had, one way or another, and we should have had it much earlier.  And we

11     believe that, again, we're not asking for a drastic remedy, but this is

12     going to be a long trial, with a lot of issues, and we think that the

13     Trial Chamber ought to make a point at this stage of encouraging

14     compliance with the Prosecution's disclosure obligations and having some

15     remedy when there's no compliance.  And we think that if you do that as a

16     matter of practice, that the disclosure will improve.

17             Thank you.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Robinson.

19             MR. TIEGER:  Just to clarify, Your Honour, we did not insist on

20     disclosure via CD to Mr. Karadzic at the UNDU.  We're happy to provide it

21     to Mr. Robinson.

22             Furthermore, Mr. Robinson is here with respect to procedural

23     issues and perhaps how to formulate objections, not with respect to the

24     substantive aspect of evidence and determining its impact on the

25     proceedings and its role in the examinations.

Page 1460

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  I think we heard enough.

 2             This is our conclusion:

 3             The Chamber has examined the document in question and is of the

 4     view that while it's clearly not an item that would be subject to the

 5     Prosecution's disclosure obligations under Rule 66(A), it may, indeed, be

 6     covered by Rule 68.  As such, and in accordance with that Rule, it should

 7     have been disclosed to Mr. Karadzic as soon as practicable.

 8             The Chamber is concerned by the fact that a document of this

 9     nature was only disclosed to the accused so recently, and we would ask

10     that you, Mr. Tieger, make inquiries within your team to find out why

11     this was done, and that you make sure that we will not find ourselves in

12     this position again.

13             However, having said that, in view of the time, I think we are

14     very unlikely to reach the stage of cross-examination of Ambassador Okun

15     until late tomorrow or, indeed, possibly until Monday, in any event.  We

16     will assess the matter tomorrow and decide, at the end of his direct

17     examination, whether to begin the cross-examination or postpone his

18     evidence until Monday.

19             Let's bring in the witness.

20             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, while we're doing that, if I could

21     just ask -- make one other request, and that is that we would ask that

22     one of our interns, if possible, be allowed to be in the courtroom with

23     us.  We have an intern assigned to each witness to prepare -- summarise

24     their prior testimony and statements, and also to prepare a summary of

25     their testimony in court, and it would assist us with the references, as

Page 1461

 1     well as be a wonderful thing for the intern, to allow them to just sit

 2     here so that we can make a smoother presentation of giving references to

 3     testimony and prior statements, as well as benefit the interns, who are

 4     working for free and working very hard for our team.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  If you could remind me how the order read.

 6             MR. ROBINSON:  The order read that we would have two people here

 7     permanently, myself and Mr. Sladojevic, and that we needed permission

 8     before anyone else were to join our team in the courtroom.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber will consider your request and give a

10     ruling tomorrow morning.

11             JUDGE MORRISON:  Mr. Robinson, would it be important for the

12     intern to be here now or when cross-examination starts?

13             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, it would be useful if they could be here now

14     so they could hear any closed-session testimony.  But it doesn't have to

15     be this minute, with this witness.  But in the future, we would like them

16     to be here for both the direct and the cross-examination.

17                           [The witness entered court]

18             JUDGE KWON:  Good afternoon, Mr. Ambassador.

19             THE WITNESS:  Good afternoon.

20             JUDGE KWON:  If you could take the solemn declaration first.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

22     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

23                           WITNESS:  HERBERT OKUN

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  If you could make yourself comfortable.

25             Sir, Ambassador Okun, my understanding is that you have been here

Page 1462

 1     for some time, so I wanted to thank you, on behalf of the Chamber, for

 2     your patience in waiting here in The Hague until today to begin your

 3     testimony.

 4             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, sir.  That's very kind.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger.

 6             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 7                           Examination by Mr. Tieger:

 8        Q.   Ambassador Okun, good afternoon.

 9        A.   Good afternoon.

10        Q.   Let me address the preliminary formalities initially.

11             You have testified here at the Tribunal on a number of occasions;

12     is that correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And in particular, you testified in the case of the Prosecutor

15     versus Momcilo Krajisnik in June of 2004, that is, June 22nd through

16     June 25th of 2004; is that right?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Ambassador, have you had the opportunity to review the transcript

19     of your testimony in the Krajisnik case, and can you affirm that it

20     accurately reflected the evidence you provided to the Court at that time?

21        A.   I have reviewed it, and it was accurate.

22             MR. TIEGER:  And, Your Honours, that is 65 ter 90005.

23        Q.   And, Ambassador, would you provide that same information to the

24     Court if examined again on the same matters here today?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 1463

 1             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, I would tender 65 ter 90005 for

 2     admission under Rule 92 ter.

 3             MR. ROBINSON:  We have no objection, Mr. President.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 5             It is admitted.  The number ...?

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P776.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 8             Mr. Tieger.

 9             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10             And with the Court's permission, I would now read a summary of

11     Ambassador Okun's evidence as admitted.

12             From 1991 to 1997, Ambassador Okun served as the special advisor

13     and deputy to the personal envoy of the United Nations Secretary-General,

14     former Secretary of State, Cyrus Vance.  Prior to his work in the former

15     Yugoslavia, Ambassador Okun served for 37 years in the United States

16     Foreign Service.  His service included negotiating high-level treaties

17     between the United States and the Soviet Union.

18             Ambassador Okun and Secretary Vance were initially asked by the

19     Secretary-General to address the conflict in Croatia in 1991, and their

20     efforts led to the establishment of a peacekeeping operation on the 2nd

21     of January, 1992, pursuant to what was commonly known as the Vance Plan.

22             Because of fears that Croatia's conflict would be replicated in

23     Bosnia and Herzegovina, in late 1991 and during 1992, Ambassador Okun and

24     Cyrus Vance also met with leaders of Bosnia and Herzegovina, including

25     the accused.  Their role in Bosnia and Herzegovina intensified with the

Page 1464

 1     establishment of the International Conference on the former Yugoslavia,

 2     or ICFY, at the London Conference in August 1992.  Secretary Vance and

 3     David Lord Owen were the ICFY chair persons, and Ambassador Okun was

 4     appointed deputy co-chairperson.

 5             From September 1992 until May 1993, intensive negotiations were

 6     conducted between the warring factions to advance the Vance-Owen Peace

 7     Plan, a plan eventually rejected by the Bosnian Serbs in May 1993.

 8             From December 1991 to May 1993, Ambassador Okun met with the

 9     Bosnian Serb leadership on approximately 50 to 60 occasions, including

10     the accused at more than 40 meetings.  During this period, the ambassador

11     personally maintained a record of meetings in a series of note-books.  He

12     has provided these note-books to the Court.  The notes therein are not a

13     stenographic record, but do memorialise important aspects of the meetings

14     and frequently quote participants verbatim.

15             Ambassador Okun recalled that the accused frequently raised the

16     following arguments in meetings: that the genocide of World War II had

17     reduced Serb numbers and thereby justified their claim to land where

18     Serbs were now a minority; that the Serbs were once again under threat

19     from the Muslims; that the Muslims planned to rule all of Bosnia and

20     Herzegovina via a high birth-rate; and that the peoples of the different

21     ethnic communities could not live together because of too much hatred.

22             In their first meeting in December 1991, before the conflict

23     began, the accused told Ambassador Okun that if Bosnian Serb opstinas or

24     municipalities were not tied to Yugoslavia, as the Bosnian Serbs wanted,

25     war would result.  After the conflict began, the accused told the

Page 1465

 1     negotiators that the Bosnian Serbs would stop fighting once the map was

 2     decided, and the allegation of territory therefore resolved.

 3             Ambassador Okun testified that the war aims of the Bosnian Serbs

 4     were:  One, to have their own state; two, for the state to have

 5     territorial continuity and to be contiguous to Serbia; three, for the

 6     state to be as ethnically pure as reasonably possible; four, to have a

 7     special relationship between that state and Serbia; five, a divided

 8     Sarajevo; and, six, a veto power of any residual powers that may be held

 9     by a central government of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

10             The ambassador and Secretary Vance received detailed information

11     from ECMM, UNPROFOR, the ICRC and UNHCR about civilians detained in camps

12     and about ethnic cleansing.  This issue was raised repeatedly with the

13     accused.  In response, the accused would point to the genocide against

14     Serbs of World War II or other crimes allegedly being committed by

15     non-Serbs against Serbs.

16             The Bosnian Serb leadership took negotiating positions that

17     depended upon the demographic change recently caused by ethnic cleansing,

18     described to the negotiators by Bosnian Serb leaders as, among other

19     things, "accommodating ethnic realities."  The Bosnian Serb claim to the

20     Drina River Valley, for example, was based on ethnic cleansing.  This

21     position was also reflected in the accused's preference for solving

22     controversial territorial areas through referendum which would favour the

23     side which had committed the cleansing.  The desire to divide Sarajevo

24     was also a constant refrain from the Bosnian Serb leadership.  The

25     shelling of civilian areas of Sarajevo city was protested to the accused.

Page 1466

 1     Ambassador Okun understood the aims of the shelling to be:  A, to

 2     terrorise; B, to use the shelling to physically divide the city in

 3     accordance with Bosnian Serb aims; and, C, to show the Bosnian Serb

 4     people that their army was powerful and, therefore, to animate them.

 5             The accused made it clear on a number of occasions that he had

 6     full control over both the Bosnian Serb Army and Serb irregulars.  At one

 7     meeting in September 1992, he told negotiators that, "We can do anything.

 8     The 'army has unified command,' and, 'I have full power.'"

 9             That concludes the summary, Your Honour.  Thank you.

10        Q.   Mr. Ambassador, by way of introduction to the Court, I would like

11     to provide the Bench with some understanding of your background, albeit

12     brief.  I appreciate the fact that it's impossible to capture all the

13     achievements of a lengthy career, but I think it's important to outline a

14     few of the highlights.

15             First of all, your career with the United States Foreign Service

16     was 37 years; is that right?

17        A.   Yes, and it was extended after I retired.

18        Q.   And during that time, among other things, you served as

19     United States ambassador to the German Democratic Republic from 1980 to

20     1983?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   You served as the deputy permanent representative and ambassador

23     of the United States to the United Nations from 1985 to 1989?

24        A.   Correct.

25        Q.   And during that time, during your career, you were also

Page 1467

 1     responsible for the negotiation of major treaties involving the then

 2     superpowers; is that right?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And, in particular, you served as deputy chairman of the

 5     United States delegation at the Strategic Arms Limitation Talks with the

 6     Soviet Union, that is, the SALT II talks, which culminated in a signing

 7     by President Carter and President Brezhnev at a summit meeting in Vienna

 8     in June of 1979?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   You were also vice-chairman of the US delegation on the Treaty

11     for Prevention of Incidents on or over the High Seas?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And --

14             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger.

15             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE KWON:  We try to follow in other languages, and I then I

17     could understand the difficulty, so could you put a pause between your

18     answer and the question.

19             MR. TIEGER:  I understand.  And since I've mentioned that myself

20     repeatedly, I will certainly try to comply.

21        Q.   And that effort with regard to the Treaty for Prevention of

22     Incidents, culminated in a summit meeting signing between President Nixon

23     and President Brezhnev; is that right?

24        A.   Yes, in May 1972.

25        Q.   And you were vice-chairman to the United States delegation on

Page 1468

 1     trilateral talks between the US, the United Kingdom, and the

 2     Soviet Union, working toward a comprehensive test ban treaty; is that

 3     correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And before I leave your State Department service, I feel I would

 6     be remiss if I didn't mention one more highlight, and that is that while

 7     you were serving in the United States Embassy in Moscow in the early

 8     1960s, is it correct that you were the person responsible, during the

 9     Cuban Missile Crisis, for translating letters from Chairman Khrushchev to

10     President Kennedy?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Now, Ambassador, after leaving the State Department, you served

13     from 1991 to 1997 as special advisor and deputy to the Special Envoy of

14     the UN Secretary-General?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And from 19 -- I'll return to 1991 through 1993 momentarily.  But

17     from 1993 to 1997, you worked on the dispute between -- or 1995, excuse

18     me, worked on the dispute between Greece and Macedonia?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   You were special advisor to the International Commission on

21     Missing Persons?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And, I guess just to round it off, you also lectured and taught

24     International Law and International Relations from 1992, first at Yale

25     Law School for almost 10 years, and then at the School of Advanced

Page 1469

 1     International Studies at Johns Hopkins?

 2        A.   That is correct.

 3        Q.   Let me focus now on your efforts during 1991 and 1993.

 4             Can you tell the Court how you and Secretary Vance came to assume

 5     your responsibilities as special envoy and deputy to the special envoy --

 6     to the Secretary-General?

 7        A.   We were summoned and asked to take on that responsibility by the

 8     Secretary-General of the United Nations, then Javier Perez de Cuellar.

 9     It was in early October 1991.

10        Q.   And you explained to the Court in your Krajisnik testimony that

11     you were tasked with fact-finding and then initiating a peacekeeping

12     operation that could assist in reaching a cessation of hostilities in

13     Croatia.  I think you were quoted as -- you and Secretary Vance were

14     charged with ending the fighting in Croatia.  Is that correct, and is

15     there anything more you were charged with that you need to bring to the

16     attention of the Court?

17        A.   That is correct, except I should add that it was we who suggested

18     the peacekeeping operation, and it was accepted by the United Nations

19     Security Council after a cessation of hostilities had been achieved and

20     had been accepted also by the parties to the conflict.

21        Q.   And that cessation of hostilities began in January of 1992; is

22     that correct?

23        A.   It began in November 1991, with the signing of an initial

24     cessation of hostilities agreement subject to certain conditions, and

25     those conditions were met.  And an implementing agreement, which

Page 1470

 1     confirmed that and led to a complete cessation of hostilities, was signed

 2     in Sarajevo on January 2nd, 1992.

 3        Q.   Now, with the initial cessation, and then the implementing

 4     agreement, and then the complete cessation of hostilities in January, did

 5     your efforts in the region cease or continue?

 6        A.   They continued.

 7        Q.   And what was the focus of your efforts at that time?

 8        A.   There was several foci.  The first was to -- excuse me,

 9     Your Honour.  The first was to follow up on the implementing accord of

10     January 2nd, in other words, the cessation of hostilities in Croatia, the

11     arrival of the peacekeeping troops in Croatia, which was, I might say,

12     the first time in history the United Nations peacekeeping troops had been

13     active in Europe.  That took several months.  It did not happen

14     immediately.  It began in March, indeed, of 1992.

15             At the same time, the worsening situation in Bosnia and

16     Herzegovina drew our attention.  And once the fighting began in March of

17     1992 in Bosnia-Herzegovina, we were quite busy.

18        Q.   Mr. Ambassador, just to set the context a bit, I believe you

19     described in your earlier testimony that during this period, that is,

20     late 1991 and the first half or so of 1992, as you and Secretary Vance

21     were engaged in your efforts both in Croatia and Bosnia, the

22     European Community was also actively engaged in efforts to achieve a

23     peaceful resolution of the situation in the region; is that right?

24        A.   Yes.  The then European Community was, indeed, in charge of the

25     overall political negotiations regarding the future of the former

Page 1471

 1     Yugoslavia.

 2        Q.   And is it correct that that effort took the particular form of

 3     what was called the Conference on Yugoslavia, which was conducted under

 4     the chairmanship of Lord Carrington?

 5        A.   Yes, that's correct.  The conference began its work in July 1991,

 6     very shortly after the outbreak of armed hostilities between Croatia and

 7     then Yugoslavia, and lasted until August 1992.

 8        Q.   And what happened in August of 1992, Mr. Ambassador?

 9        A.   In August 1992, the British government, which then held the

10     Presidency of the European Community, convened an international congress

11     at the very end of August 1992 which had two objectives.  The first was

12     to recognise the failure of the Conference on Yugoslavia to resolve the

13     problem.  This had obviously not happened, as the fighting in

14     Bosnia-Herzegovina was fierce.  Second, it was to establish a new peace

15     conference with both the EC and the UN together in charge of the effort.

16     That was the conference which went forward and went into existence in the

17     beginning of September 1992 and was called the International Conference

18     on the Former Yugoslavia.

19        Q.   And you indicated that the International Conference for the

20     Former Yugoslavia was a conference with the EC and the UN working

21     together.  Who served on behalf of the UN and on behalf of the EC?

22        A.   The co-chairmen were Lord Owen, David Lord Owen, former British

23     foreign secretary for the European Community.  And for the United Nations

24     the co-chairman was Cyrus Vance, former American secretary of state.

25        Q.   And your role in the International Conference for the Former

Page 1472

 1     Yugoslavia, Ambassador?

 2        A.   I was the deputy -- excuse me.  I was the deputy co-chairman for

 3     the United Nations.  Ambassador Peter Hall, distinguished British

 4     diplomat, was the deputy co-chair for the European Community.

 5        Q.   Ambassador, can you provide the Court with a quick snap-shot of

 6     how you and Secretary Vance, Lord Owen, and Ambassador Hall went about

 7     the effort of trying to reach a peaceful settlement, and some idea of the

 8     intensity of that effort?

 9        A.   The conference met in Geneva, Switzerland.  It brought to Geneva

10     all the parties to the conflict in Bosnia-Herzegovina for round-the-clock

11     negotiations.  The parties met together.  They met with us.  We met

12     bilaterally with the delegations.  It was very intense.

13        Q.   And with whom did you meet in that time?  For example, did you

14     meet with only the representatives of the warring factions or with other

15     leaders in the area?

16        A.   We met with both members of the warring factions and other

17     leaders, both from Yugoslavia and from other neighbouring countries.  But

18     primarily the meetings were with the disputants, the former Yugoslav

19     parties, that is, the Bosnian parties.

20        Q.   And in an effort to obtain as much information as might be useful

21     in assessing the situation in your meetings with the various leaders, did

22     you also meet with representatives of the international community, NGOs

23     and so on?

24        A.   Yes, we did.  We met with the most senior representatives and

25     those on the scene of the International Committee of the Red Cross.  In

Page 1473

 1     addition, we had, as a subordinate group within our conference,

 2     Madam Ogata, the UN high commissioner for refugees.  She was an active

 3     partner.  And we also met with representatives of UNPROFOR, which was the

 4     name given to the UN peacekeeping operation in both Croatia and

 5     Bosnia-Herzegovina, and others.  We met also with nongovernmental

 6     organisations, and, for example, we met with Tadeusz Mazowiecki, the

 7     former Polish prime minister, who after leaving office in Warsaw had been

 8     appointed special rapporteur for human rights in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  We

 9     had access to all of these people.

10        Q.   Ambassador, I've already alluded, in the summary of the evidence

11     you provided during the Krajisnik case, to the fact that you maintained

12     journals or note-books or diaries during the course of these efforts.

13     First of all, are those the documents we see before you at this moment?

14        A.   Yes, they are these booklets in front of me.

15        Q.   And can you explain to the Court your purpose in taking those

16     notes, your experience in doing so, and the nature of the entries.

17        A.   It was always my practice to take notes at important meetings

18     over the years.  It became essential in the former Yugoslavia, and was

19     essential from the first moment there, because of the intensity of the

20     efforts that Secretary Vance and I were making and the number of

21     individual meetings we might have the same day.  Many days, we began at

22     8.00 a.m. and ended after midnight, and we had, in that period, perhaps

23     five or six meetings with five or six different delegations from two or

24     three of the parties.  And so in order to know who said what to whom at

25     the end of the day, I took notes during the meetings.  I did not dally

Page 1474

 1     because of the urgency.  It was no secret.  I had my note-books out on

 2     the desk, the way they are now, except that I was writing in them.  I'm

 3     not a court stenographer, but having heard the arguments on all sides,

 4     very often the same arguments, it was easy, I should say, to distinguish

 5     the wheat from the chaff and get down on paper the essence of the

 6     meetings.  And the journals, of course, proved very useful to the

 7     negotiators.

 8        Q.   Now, Ambassador, you explained, during your testimony in the

 9     Krajisnik case, that it's important for a negotiator to understand and --

10     well, first to make assessments and then to understand the people with

11     whom they are dealing, their level of importance, their arguments on

12     issues, their relationship to one another, their veracity, and that that

13     is a skill that one perfects on the job.  Is it also important to know

14     the objectives of the persons with whom you're negotiating?

15        A.   Yes, I would say that's essential.

16        Q.   As a result of your meetings -- your many, many meetings with

17     members of the Bosnian Serb leadership, and with the accused in

18     particular, were you able to identify the war aims of the Bosnian Serb

19     leadership and were you able to identify Dr. Karadzic's war aims?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And can you describe them to the Court, please.

22        A.   Well, to begin with, you've already mentioned them.  If you want

23     me to mention them, I can again.  They were:  To establish a separate

24     state inside of Bosnia, juridically recognised, called Republika Srpska.

25     Second, the Republika Srpska was to be a continuous territory, not be

Page 1475

 1     chopped up into pieces, and also to have geographic contiguity with

 2     Serbia.  Third, the Republika Srpska was to be as homogeneous,

 3     ethnically - "pure" was the word that was often used by the Bosnian

 4     Serbs - as it could be.  Fourth, the Republika Srpska was to have a

 5     "special relationship" with the Serbian republic, which everybody

 6     understood to include, if it were possible, even absorption into Serbia.

 7     Fifth, the Republika Srpska leaders were to have an absolute veto over

 8     any residual powers that remained with the central government in

 9     Sarajevo, because it was clearly understood that there was going to be

10     some nominal government representing the entire country in Sarajevo.

11     And, sixth and last, the goal was to divide Sarajevo between the Bosnian

12     Muslims and the Bosnian Serbs.  The other parties also had war goals.

13             Oh, and excuse me.  You asked whether Dr. Karadzic subscribed to

14     these objectives.  I would say, yes, he did, as indeed the entire

15     political body of the Bosnian Serb state, because they adopted most of

16     these, particularly the geographic ones, on May 12th, 1992, at a meeting

17     of the Bosnian Serb Assembly.

18             These objectives were not a secret.  The Bosnian Serb side was

19     quite open and honest with us about these goals.

20        Q.   And, Ambassador, you mentioned that the other parties also had

21     war goals.  Perhaps this would be an opportune moment for you to identify

22     those.

23        A.   Yes.  The other parties were not quite as extensive in their

24     demands, but they had war goals.  The Bosnian Muslim side wanted a

25     unitary state, centralised powers, and Sarajevo with only residual

Page 1476

 1     administrative ordinances to be outside of the capital.  They wanted a

 2     majoritarian rule, because they were already a plurality with 44 per cent

 3     of the Bosnian population in 1991, and they were looking forward to the

 4     day when they would be an absolute majority.

 5             The last point of their war aims was a disputed one, and that was

 6     whether and to what degree a Bosnian-Muslim-ruled Bosnia-Herzegovina

 7     would be an Islamic state.  The reason it was an open question was that

 8     the Party of Democratic Action, the SDA, the Bosnian Muslim party, was

 9     itself divided into a secular section and a more religiously-inclined

10     section.

11             With respect to the Bosnian Croats, they first wished to vote, as

12     they did, to take Bosnia-Herzegovina out of the Yugoslav Federation, to

13     declare independence.  Second, they set up their own state, called the

14     Community of Herceg-Bosna, a rough analogue to the Republika Srpska.  And

15     they also wanted territorial contiguity with their mother country,

16     Croatia, and they looked forward to the day when, formally or informally,

17     the Community of Herceg-Bosna would also have a special relationship,

18     possibly even uniting with the Republic of Croatia.

19             You see that certain -- in certain respects, the Bosnian Serbs

20     and the Bosnian Croats had parallel goals.  Of course, in other respects,

21     they were completely opposed to each other.  But it indicates the

22     complexity of the fighting on the ground, because you had overlapping

23     goals.  Sometimes the parties were in opposition, sometimes some of them

24     made or tried to make private side deals.  That was not at all uncommon.

25        Q.   Ambassador, you spoke about territorial continuity, or the demand

Page 1477

 1     for territorial continuity and territorial contiguity with Serbia, by

 2     Dr. Karadzic and the Bosnian Serb leaders.  Did they ever provide you

 3     with -- ever draw out for you or provide you with some graphic

 4     representation of exactly what they were demanding?

 5        A.   Yes, they did.  Of course, we had in front of our eyes the

 6     military situation.  To begin with, we knew where the armies were; where

 7     the line of confrontation was; where the Bosnian Serb forces, the VRS,

 8     were; and what they were interested in.  Beyond that, we had maps drawn

 9     for us, by hand sometimes, by the leaders of the three parties; the

10     Muslims, the Serbs, the Croats.  And then there were official maps given

11     to the negotiators at the International Conference on the former

12     Yugoslavia as representing the desires -- the geographic desiderata of

13     the three parties.  So there was no difficulty in knowing which areas of

14     Bosnia-Herzegovina the parties were primarily interested in.

15        Q.   Ambassador, can I ask you to turn to a meeting of September 10th,

16     1992.

17             That would be 65 ter 06534, page 45, for the Registrar.

18             And, Ambassador, I believe that would be the ICFY book number 1,

19     the meeting that began at 5.00.

20        A.   I have it.

21        Q.   And we see depicted there a drawing of what appears to be a map.

22     Can you explain that to the Court, please, and what it depicts?

23        A.   Yes.  It is my -- a handwritten drawing of a map that

24     Dr. Karadzic gave to us that showed the -- that had an overlay on the map

25     that showed the Serb-controlled areas.  The map was a map prepared by

Page 1478

 1     Mr. Henry Darwin, an English jurist who had worked with Lord Owen, and

 2     Ambassador Cutileiro in the spring and summer of 1992 on

 3     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  So there was this map, and then over it Dr. Karadzic

 4     put an overlay showing the location of the Bosnian Serb forces.  And I

 5     drew a rough version of that by myself in my journal.

 6        Q.   And during the course of subsequent -- and let me -- before I go

 7     on, let me ask you:  The area marked with lines, it is the hashed area,

 8     that was the area controlled by the Bosnian Serbs, according to

 9     Dr. Karadzic?

10        A.   Yes, and it was accurate.  The Bosnian Serbs, at that time in

11     September 1992, controlled approximately 70 per cent of the Bosnian

12     state.

13        Q.   And during the course of subsequent meetings, did Dr. Karadzic

14     and other members of the Bosnian Serb leadership make reference to this

15     area and indicate whether it represented the -- represented portions of

16     Bosnia and Herzegovina which it claimed?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And can I ask you to turn next to a meeting of the 11th of

19     October, 1992.

20             Mr. Registrar, that would be 65 ter 06536, and it would be

21     page 34.

22             Ambassador, do you have that meeting in front of you?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And if I could ask you to turn to the third page of that meeting

25     that begins with lines:

Page 1479

 1             "Kara - 'Main problem, Tito's borders.'"

 2             And if you could indicate the nature of that discussion leading

 3     down to "draws map by hand."

 4        A.   It was a constant contention of the Bosnian Serb leadership,

 5     including Dr. Karadzic, that the Serbian people were ill treated by Tito

 6     in the drawing up of the republic borders after World War II.  This was,

 7     in fact, not true, particularly not true with respect to Bosnia and

 8     Herzegovina, whose borders in 1991 were almost identical with those that

 9     had been established -- by Bismark at the Congress of Berlin in 1878.

10     Indeed, the Bosnian border is one of the oldest in Europe, not just in

11     the Balkans.  Where it is true, that Tito, who, as we know, was half

12   Croat, half Slovene, and no friend of the Serbs, where that is true is with

13     Serbia itself, because Tito did, in fact, wish to reduce the power of

14     Serbia within his state, and he did so primarily by removing -- I should

15     say creating Macedonia out of the Serbian corpus.  Until 1946, what we

16     now call the Republic of Macedonia had been Southern Serbia.  And Tito

17     also granted autonomy to areas within Serbia, traditional areas, the

18     Vojvodina in the north and Kosovo in the south.  So it is accurate to say

19     that Tito sought to reduce Serbian power within Yugoslavia, but it is not

20     accurate to say that he did it in Bosnia and Herzegovina.  He took other

21     steps that the Bosnian Serbs and Bosnian Croats disliked heartily with

22     respect to the Muslims of Bosnia and Herzegovina, but the border issue

23     was not won.

24        Q.   Now, Ambassador, you indicate in parentheses, toward the -- about

25     the third entry of that page:

Page 1480

 1             "(Draws map by hand)."

 2             And, Your Honours, I made application, as the Court is aware, for

 3     the addition to the 65 ter list, of 65 ter 22791.  If -- with the Court's

 4     leave, if permission to add that was granted, I would call that up at

 5     this point.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Could you give me the number again?

 7             MR. TIEGER:  22791.

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  We have no objections.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Robinson.  It is granted.

10             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11             And could that be depicted on the screen, please.

12        Q.   Ambassador, this is a map you drew during the course of your

13     Prlic testimony.  Does this map -- is that your depiction of the map that

14     was drawn by Dr. Karadzic on the 10th of -- excuse me, the 11th of

15     October, 1992 meeting?

16        A.   Yes, it's consistent with what Dr. Karadzic drew.  You can see

17     basically it's a horseshoe shape around Central Bosnia, with a green area

18     that's Muslim ethnicity at the extreme left or western end of Bosnia,

19     called the Cazinska Krajina in Bosnia, and it was called the Bihac Pocket

20     during the conflict.

21        Q.   And does this map then indicate the map that was drawn by

22     Dr. Karadzic during the course of the discussion about the areas that

23     were sought by the Bosnian Serbs, the areas that would be left to Croats

24     and Muslims?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 1481

 1        Q.   Just to describe those areas, on the outer part of the horseshoe,

 2     that is, if we follow the horseshoe area around, would the outer region

 3     be the areas given to the Bosnian -- demanded by the Bosnian Serbs?

 4        A.   Yes.  If you look at the right of the map, which is basically the

 5     Drina River border with Serbia, you can see that the claim was to the

 6     entire western bank of the Drina River.  Up at the upper right-hand

 7     corner, in the Semberija, as it is called, there is the hook around the

 8     Posavina, that is to say, the very top of the map, which is the

 9     Sava River, dividing Bosnia and Herzegovina from Croatia, and then to the

10     western part of Bosnia, the large blue area, which was a largely Serb

11     area.  The difficult areas, from the Bosnian Serb point of view, were the

12     areas along the Drina River.  As you can see, there's a lot of green on

13     this map, and green are the opstina or municipalities that had a Muslim

14     majority or plurality.  And, again, at the top of the map you'll see the

15     pink ones, and those were the opstina where the Bosnian Croats were in

16     the majority.  And the reason those areas were vital to the Bosnian

17     Serbs, and they made it known to us, was, again, they wanted the

18     contiguity with Serbia, so that meant basically they wanted to eliminate

19     the Drina River as a border.  And, in the north, where the pink areas are

20     at the top of the map, that blocked or, I should say, overlay the route

21     from Belgrade through Bijeljina, Brcko, to Banja Luka; namely, the

22     corridor from the capital of Serbia to the Bosnian Serb capital of

23     Banja Luka.  That was a constant theme mentioned by all the Bosnian Serb

24     leaders and by General Mladic and others as being an essential goal and

25     necessity.

Page 1482

 1             Central Bosnia was, as you see from the ethnic map, largely a

 2     mixture of Bosnian Croat and Bosnian Muslim areas, and, therefore, it had

 3     lesser interest to the Bosnian Serbs, although there were parts of

 4     Central Bosnia that, indeed, were of interest; the Ozren Mountains, for

 5     example, and other areas.  But the horseshoe was the essential shape of

 6     the future Bosnian state.

 7        Q.   Ambassador, just so there's no -- sorry, I don't want to run over

 8     the translation.

 9             Ambassador, just so there's no misunderstanding about the map, we

10     see both the horseshoe area that descends to the left side of the map

11     down through the area marked "2."  We also see an area that -- a line

12     that goes up and has in cross-hatchings in it.  Was that simply a mistake

13     that was crossed out?

14        A.   Yes, that was my error when I first drew this map.

15        Q.   Okay.  Now, within the horseshoe, and on the map we see areas

16     marked "10," "9," et cetera, there's also a diamond or a triangular

17     shape.  So just to make clear, with the exception of that diamond or

18     triangular shape, to whom was Dr. Karadzic saying that territory should

19     go?

20        A.   Well, the expectation was that the central part, that is, the

21     area within the horseshoe, would be controlled essentially by the

22     Bosnian Croats, and that triangle was to be the area that the

23     Bosnian Muslims controlled.  Roughly, if you draw a line from Sarajevo to

24     Tuzla, to Zenica, to Travnik, and down back to Sarajevo, that was the

25     area that both the Bosnian Croats and the Bosnian Serbs expected to be

Page 1483

 1     Muslim.  And as you can see, it's not much of Bosnia.

 2        Q.   Ambassador, if I may, let me take you quickly to a couple of more

 3     references related to maps.  First to an entry -- a meeting of the 2nd of

 4     December, 1992.

 5             That would be 65 ter 065371, at e-court page 29.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Following our practice, shall we -- you tender this?

 7             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you very much.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  And we deal with the ambassador's note-book first,

 9     or you'd like to tender it --

10             MR. TIEGER:  Of course, I'd like to tender all of the associated

11     exhibits.  That would be one of them.  We can take them -- we can recite

12     the numbers for the Court, if the Court wishes.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Let's deal with them as we go along.

14             I take it you do not object to the admission of the diaries of

15     ambassadors.

16             MR. ROBINSON:  That's correct.

17             JUDGE KWON:  And how about this map?

18             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we give the numbers to those?  I take it there

20     are three diaries, or more than?

21             MR. TIEGER:  No, Your Honour, there are approximately --

22             JUDGE KWON:  Nine?

23             MR. TIEGER:  Yes.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Nine of them.  So we'll -- we are not dealing with

25     so many items.  I take it there are some 18 or 19 items, in total, as

Page 1484

 1     a --

 2             MR. TIEGER:  Yes.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  If we can hear, for the convenience, if there's any

 4     objection to any of the items.

 5             MR. ROBINSON:  [Microphone not activated] There's no objections,

 6     Mr. President --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  There's no objection to any of the items on the

 9     92 ter list for this witness.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  We'll admit them all, and the number

11     will be circulated by the Court Officer.

12             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Your Honour.  And just to avoid any

13     confusion, I think there are 13 note-books.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

15             Just one thing I want to clarify is that amongst the items, I

16     included two excerpts of 34th session and 37th session from the

17     Republika Srpska National Assembly.  I take it you are tendering only

18     those parts which were referred to during the ambassador's evidence.

19             MR. TIEGER:  That's correct, Your Honour.  I mean, I will say

20     that I -- as I'll say again on other occasions, I think the entirety of

21     those sessions will eventually be before the Court, are extremely useful.

22     But in terms of the references during the course of that testimony, the

23     Court is correct.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

25             Let's proceed.

Page 1485

 1                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Just for clarification, Mr. Tieger, you also

 3     tendered the index of material, but it was tendered for the purpose of

 4     helping us as a kind of aide-memoire or as an index?

 5             MR. TIEGER:  That is correct.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  So it will not be admitted as a separate exhibit.

 7             MR. TIEGER:  I think that's entirely appropriate, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 9             Thank you for clarification, and thank you for your patience,

10     Ambassador.

11             THE WITNESS:  Might I interject a comment at this point,

12     Your Honour?

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please.

14             THE WITNESS:  Counsel said there were 13 note-books.  In fact,

15     there are 16.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

17             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Ambassador.

18             And I had asked for 65 ter 06537, page 29, to be called up.  If

19     that can be called up on screen, please.  Sorry, that's the -- that's not

20     the correct date.  I don't know if I have the -- 06537 is the exhibit.

21     Let's try 38.  It would be page 29 of 38.

22        Q.   Ambassador, that's a meeting of the 2nd of December, 1992.  As

23     you can see on the screen, at the page at the left there are -- there's a

24     discussion by "CRV," who I take to be Secretary Vance, and then "DLO,"

25     who I take to be David Lord Owen.  And if I could direct your attention

Page 1486

 1     to the fourth entry under "Lord Owen," which says:

 2             "Still in disagreement with Bosnian Serbs, who want one horseshoe

 3     area."

 4             Is that a reference to the same horseshoe areas that we saw

 5     before, drawn by first -- drawn by Dr. Karadzic in those two meetings?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             MR. TIEGER:  And, finally, if I could ask for 65 ter 45272 to be

 8     called up.  And can the Registrar go to Sanction, please.

 9        Q.   Ambassador, during the course of your testimony in Krajisnik, you

10     had an opportunity to view, with the Court, a video of Mr. Krajisnik, and

11     describing a map and an overlay over that map.  And is that the -- is

12     that one section of that video that you see before you now?

13        A.   Yes, it is.

14        Q.   And does that depict essentially the same horseshoe area that

15     we've seen before of the territory demanded by the Bosnian Serbs?

16        A.   Yes, it does.

17             MR. TIEGER:  Can I next call up 65 ter 11313.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

19             Mr. Robinson, when you said that you had no objection, it also --

20     you also referred to those additional exhibits to be used?

21             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, I did.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you very much.  So all the items will be dealt

23     with by a memo by the Court Officer later on.

24             On that basis, let's proceed, Mr. Tieger.

25             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 1487

 1             I'm going to direct the Ambassador's attention to this map.

 2        Q.   And, Ambassador, what I want to ask you, when this map comes up,

 3     is to focus on the areas within Bosnia and Herzegovina claimed by the

 4     Bosnian Serbs, that is, the horseshoe area you described, and ask if

 5     those areas were solely or overwhelmingly populated by Bosnian Serbs.

 6        A.   In some areas, yes.  In many areas, no.  As you can see by

 7     looking at the map, this ethnic map of Bosnia and Herzegovina, if you

 8     look to the right, to the border between Bosnia and Herzegovina and

 9     Serbia, namely, the Drina, you will see much green area which represents

10     majority Muslim provinces.  I believe, indeed, that there were seven

11     Muslim -- excuse me, I said "provinces."  I should have said "opstina,

12     municipalities."  There were seven majority Muslim municipalities on the

13     Drina before the war, from Zvornik in the north to Foca in the south, and

14     the -- there are very few Muslims left in those areas due to ethnic

15     cleansing, and they form part of Republika Srpska today.  The entire

16     Drina is today part of Republika Srpska, including all of the formerly

17     Muslim areas which are now Serb areas.

18        Q.   With respect to the Muslims living in those areas, Ambassador, I

19     want to ask you some questions about what Dr. Karadzic told you about

20     them, what he told you about the Muslims.

21             First of all, you explained, in the course of your testimony

22     during the Krajisnik case, that Dr. Karadzic spoke to you about the

23     Muslim birth-rate.  Can you explain that to the Court, please.

24        A.   Yes.  He was concerned that the birth-rate of the Bosnian

25     Muslims, which was, I gather, considerably higher than that of either the

Page 1488

 1     Bosnian Serbs or the Bosnian Croats, would, within a relatively short

 2     time, give the Muslim population an absolute majority in

 3     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  And since it was known that the Bosnian Muslims

 4     wanted a unitary state, basically one man one vote, he was very concerned

 5     that this would disadvantage the Bosnian Serb community, disadvantage

 6     them seriously.

 7        Q.   And, Ambassador, can I ask you to turn quickly to your book

 8     number 4 -- Vance Mission book number 4.  It's a meeting of the 2nd of

 9     December, 1991.

10             And that's 65 ter 06530, page 21.

11             And, Ambassador, I believe you'll find the relevant entry at

12     page 45 of your book.

13        A.   Yes, I have it.

14        Q.   And under the entry on the right page of the -- now depicted on

15     the screen, which begins with -- which is marked above "Belgrade,

16     12/2/91," and then the second speaker is "RK," I take that to be

17     Dr. Karadzic.

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And the fourth entry down?

20        A.   Well, that's consistent with what I just said, that Dr. Karadzic

21     was pointing out, at our initial meeting - this was the very first time

22     we met in Belgrade - that the high birth-rate of the Muslims would enable

23     them to achieve, as Dr. Karadzic said, their desires to have the whole of

24     Bosnia to themselves, or to rule it, perhaps, by themselves.

25        Q.   And did Dr. Karadzic tell you at that same meeting, at least what

Page 1489

 1     he said the Muslims or Mr. Izetbegovic wanted to do with Bosnia?

 2        A.   Yes.  Dr. Karadzic took the position that Alija Izetbegovic, then

 3     the president of Bosnia and Herzegovina, wanted to turn

 4     Bosnia-Herzegovina into a Muslim -- Islamic state, with Sharia Law and

 5     all of the other appurtenances of Islam.

 6        Q.   And I just want to turn to one more reference in connection with

 7     that same matter.

 8             If we could turn to a meeting of September 17th, 1992.  That's

 9     65 ter 06535, page 26.

10             And, Ambassador, that's ICFY book number 2, and it would be the

11     sixth page of that meeting.

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And do we find there another reference to Dr. Karadzic's

14     assertions that the Muslim birth-rate represented a threat to the Serbs?

15        A.   Yes, that's correct.  Dr. Karadzic, in answer to a question from

16     Secretary Vance, what of the current or the future situation, he

17     responded that the Muslims were losing because their objectives were

18     unrealistic, neither the Croats nor the Serbs would allow this, and that

19     Izetbegovic is aiming at rule via a high birth rate.

20        Q.   Now, in addition to the assertion that the Muslims were intending

21     to rule via the high birth-rate and intended the establishment of an

22     Islamic state, did Dr. Karadzic talk about other threats that he claimed

23     that the Serbs had faced or were facing?  For example, did he speak about

24     any existential threats?

25        A.   Yes, in a broad sense, he did, because the constant references to

Page 1490

 1     the World War II genocide in Bosnia-Herzegovina against the Bosnian Serbs

 2     was a constant theme, and therefore that framed much of the discussion

 3     with Dr. Karadzic.  It also had a geographic implication, because the

 4     Bosnian Serb official position with respect to their self-declared

 5     Republika Srpska was that areas that had had a Serb majority, a

 6     plurality, before the Second World War, where the Serbs were eliminated

 7     by a genocide, that those areas should revert to the Republika Srpska.

 8     So there was an existential aspect to this.

 9        Q.   Ambassador, you referred to the constant references to the -- to

10     World War II genocide.  Did the -- did you ever comment to Dr. Karadzic

11     about the frequent repetition of this theme?

12        A.   I don't know that I commented to him a great deal, but I do

13     recall, early on, being somewhat shocked at these constant references.

14     And I once said to him that if he continued with that line of thinking,

15     that some day he'd commit a genocide himself, the Bosnian Serbs would

16     commit a genocide.  That was before the fighting began, actually.  And I

17     have to say that I didn't really take it seriously when I said it, except

18     as a verbal way of expressing shock at the argumentation that World

19     War II genocide justified all of Bosnian Serb behaviour.  But it was

20     noticeable.

21             Also, in the note-books there's an entry which I did not mean to

22     be humorous, but I noted a meeting with Dr. Karadzic, and at the

23     beginning I wrote something to the effect -- it's in the journals,

24     something to the effect that unusually Dr. Karadzic didn't mention

25     Bosnian -- the genocide of the Serbs for three minutes into a

Page 1491

 1     conversation, because it was such a constant refrain with him.

 2             MR. TIEGER:  And I see the time, but I'll just refer quickly to

 3     65 ter 06532, page 43.

 4        Q.   Ambassador, that would be the Vance Mission book number 6 meeting

 5     at 2.45.  I think it's marked page 104 in your diaries.  It's actually on

 6     screen, Ambassador, if you can read that.  A meeting at 2.45 to 3.25 of

 7     the -- of March 5th, 1992.

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And is that the meeting to which you just referred and the entry

10     to which you just --

11        A.   Yes.  If I could just read the few lines.  I wrote:

12             "Summary:  "Karadzic more disheveled and melodramatic, but did

13     not use the word "genocide" until three minutes into the conversation."

14             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Ambassador.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Ambassador, we'll adjourn for the day.  We'll resume

16     at 2.15 tomorrow afternoon.  So I understand that you know full well that

17     you're not supposed to speak about your evidence with anybody.

18             Mr. Tieger, we went along without designating the exhibit number

19     to the exhibit, but I hope that the Court Officer can convey all the

20     numbers to the parties during the course of the morning tomorrow.  So

21     when we resume tomorrow afternoon, we are going to use the exhibit

22     numbers.

23             MR. TIEGER:  Rather than the 65 ter numbers.  I understand,

24     Your Honour.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

Page 1492

 1             Good evening, everybody.

 2                           [The witness stands down]

 3                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m.,

 4                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 23rd day of April,

 5                           2010, at 2.15 p.m.