1 Wednesday, 5 May 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.
5 JUDGE KWON: Good afternoon everybody. I was advised that there
6 are preliminaries from both parties. Mr. Tieger.
7 MR. TIEGER: Thank you very much, Your Honour. The first matter
8 I would need to raise in -- well, there's two matters, one in open
9 session, one in private. I think the other matter to which the Court
10 alluded would also be raised in private, so let me go to the second
11 matter first, the one that can be raised in open.
12 I raised this with Mr. Robinson today. As the Court will recall,
13 the redirect examination of the previous witness was abbreviated as a
14 result of the understandable interest on all sides to conclude the
15 witness's testimony by the end of the court week and also to allot as
16 much time as possible for the actual cross-examination rather than
17 redirect. For that reason, I raised with Mr. Robinson the possibility of
18 submitting a very few documents that I would have submitted to the
19 witness during the course of redirect examination. It constitutes a
20 total of six documents. I inquired whether there was any objection in
21 principle on the part of the Defence to this proposed admission.
22 Mr. Robinson indicated there was not. It's in light of the circumstances
23 and the fact that it was a limited number of documents rather than a
24 massive, wholesale submission.
25 I provided Mr. Robinson with a list of the proposed documents so
1 he could review the specifics, but I simply wanted to bring that to the
2 Court's attention at the earliest opportunity so you know that matter is
3 being considered. Once Mr. Robinson has had an opportunity to review the
4 documents and indicate his position on them specifically, I'll make the
5 formal submission to the Chamber.
6 The second matter, as I indicated would be in private session, if
7 that's possible.
8 JUDGE KWON: Before we go into that, I wonder whether
9 Mr. Robinson is in a position to give any confirmation.
10 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. I haven't had a chance to
11 discuss the specific documents with Mr. Karadzic yet, so I can't say
12 whether or not we would agree, but in principle we will try to co-operate
13 and facilitate the admission of the exhibits, if possible.
14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
15 Mr. Tieger, in the meantime, did the Chamber receive that list of
16 documents yet?
17 MR. TIEGER: No, I can do so, Your Honour, if the Court wishes.
18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Then we'll go into private session
20 [Private session]
11 Pages 1850-1851 redacted. Private session.
1 [Open session]
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We are now in open session. Mr. Robinson.
3 MR. ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. President. This deals with the
4 62 ter statement of the witness who is about to come in to testify, and
5 we thought it would be better to deal with this before she came, rather
6 than asking her to be excused when she had identified her 92 ter
7 statement. There are some points in the statement that we ask to be
8 excluded, and they relate to sniping and shelling incidents which are not
9 charged in the indictment, in particular, in paragraphs 10, 16 through
10 18, and 37. There are mention of some incidents which do not appear in
11 the Schedule F or G which list the shelling and sniping incidents in the
12 indictment. And it's our position that when specific mention is made of
13 specific victims and dates that those things should have been pled in the
14 indictment and that it would frustrate the Trial Chamber's order under
15 Rule 73 bis (D) if the Prosecution were allowed to add new incidents that
16 were not the subject of the indictment.
17 As you know, you requested them to reduce the number of incidents
18 and they did that. They eliminated Schedule G(3), (16), (17) and (18)
19 and sniping incident F(13), and we think if they're allowed to introduce
20 evidence of things that were never even in the indictment that that would
21 be frustrating the Chamber's ruling in which the Chamber indicated it was
22 gravely concerned about the scope of the Prosecution's case and the
23 potential effect it would have on the fair and expeditious conduct of the
24 trial and administration of justice. And I'm quoting from the decision
25 on the application of Rule 73 bis that you issued on the 9th of October,
2 The second issue relates to paragraph 38 of the statement, and we
3 believe that this should be excluded on the grounds of physician/patient
4 privilege. The witness is repeating what a patient told her about her
5 father, and I have to admit this is an issue that is not -- we have not
6 been able to find any jurisprudence on at the ICTY or the ICTR as to
7 whether a physician/patient privilege is even recognised by the Tribunal.
8 But it is recognised in other international instruments as well as many
9 local jurisdictions, and we feel it ought to be recognised in this
11 So those four -- those four groupings of paragraphs, paragraph
12 10, 16 through 18, and 37 we ask be excluded on the grounds that those
13 incidents should have been in the indictment if the evidence were to be
14 led on them, and paragraph 38 as a communication that is covered by the
15 physician/patient privilege. Thank you.
16 JUDGE KWON: And you are not objecting to the -- oh, when we --
17 you may deal with it when it comes, but do you have any say as to the
18 diary that the witness kept?
19 MR. ROBINSON: Yes. We don't object to the diary.
20 JUDGE KWON: The -- that privilege you referred to can be invoked
21 by the physician or nurse but only can be waived by the patient.
22 MR. ROBINSON: I believe that unless the patient waives it, the
23 physician or nurse is not allowed to give evidence without a waiver.
24 JUDGE KWON: My question is whether the accused has any right or
25 authority to interfere with that privilege.
1 MR. ROBINSON: No, he has no right to interfere with the
2 privilege but the Chamber, I think, would have an obligation if it
3 believes that the privilege exists to make sure that there's been a
4 waiver before privilege is violated.
5 JUDGE KWON: And I just had the opportunity to take brief look at
6 paragraph 38. Separate from the probative value it will have, if any,
7 can we not view it as a kind of direct observation of what the witness
8 saw and heard?
9 MR. ROBINSON: Well, it's definitely an observation of what the
10 witness heard, but that's the whole point of the privilege because it
11 says I asked her about this and then it quotes what she said. So it's a
12 communication between a patient and a nurse. So we think it's directly
13 covered by the privilege. I agree the probative value is low, but I
14 think this is an issue -- there are also physicians who are going to be
15 testifying in the case, and so this is an issue that will come up again
16 and perhaps this would be a good time to try to resolve it.
17 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Judge Morrison has a question.
18 JUDGE MORRISON: Mr. Robinson, you no doubt are very aware of the
19 position in the United States. Bearing in mind that there's no direct
20 jurisprudence in the Tribunal, we're going to obviously have to look for
21 guidance outside the scope of the -- our inherent findings in previous
23 You would agree, I presume, that there is a difference between
24 medical privilege and legal privilege.
25 MR. ROBINSON: Yes. In fact, the legal privilege is
1 attorney/client privilege, if you're referring to that specifically
2 provided for in the ICTY statute.
3 JUDGE MORRISON: And presumably in the US, as in the UK, that is
4 a distinction which is recognised.
5 MR. ROBINSON: It is recognised. It's a different privilege, a
6 privilege -- it's a stronger privilege for lawyer/client communication
7 than it is for patient/physician.
8 JUDGE MORRISON: And the privilege is one, that the President has
9 said, that can be raised by the physician but only waived by the patient
10 because it's the patient's privilege, as in a legal sense it would be
11 the -- an accused's person privilege in an attorney/client relationship.
12 MR. ROBINSON: Exactly.
13 JUDGE MORRISON: But the difference surely is this: That where
14 it's an issue of confidentiality, medical confidentiality, it's called
15 privilege, but in reality it's an issue of confidentiality between the
16 physician and the patient. If the doctor elects to ignore that
17 privilege, that's not a matter for the Court. The issue then becomes an
18 issue between the patient and the doctor or the doctor's, as it were,
19 ethical obligations or medical council, or whatever, in the jurisdiction
20 that that doctor practices rather than an issue for the Court. What the
21 issue for the Court is whether or not what is likely to be said is
22 relevant and probative and is generally of assistance in the case.
23 MR. ROBINSON: Well, I think the Court has to deal with whether
24 the privilege -- whether it can hear evidence which is being offered in
25 violation of the privilege. This actually came up in the Simic case with
1 respect to the Red Cross. In that case, there was an employee of the
2 International Red Cross who was ready willing and able to give evidence
3 about what he had observed while working with the Red Cross and had given
4 a statement to the Prosecution about those things. But the Chamber ruled
5 that it was the privilege of the Red Cross that was at issue, and unless
6 they waived that privilege, despite the willingness of the employee that
7 it would exclude the evidence, and it did exclude the evidence, because
8 the Red Cross wasn't willing to waive that privilege. So I think
9 although the privilege should be invoked by the person who is appearing
10 before the Chamber, we can't -- the Chamber has the right -- has the
11 obligation to see that the privilege isn't violated and needs to have
12 some evidence from the privilege holder that they've waived it,
13 regardless of the willingness of the person who's here before you.
14 JUDGE MORRISON: Yes. Well, that's -- as I say, that would be --
15 would not be the position in the UK
16 as I understand it, in the US
17 Court would admit the evidence would be balancing exercise as to whether
18 or not the breach of confidentiality was justified in the circumstances
19 of the case.
20 MR. ROBINSON: I think the UK and the US are a little different
21 on that. The UK
22 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Robinson kindly slow down for the
23 interpretation. Thank you.
24 MR. ROBINSON: Yes. I've been asked to slow down. Sorry about
25 that. I think my understanding is the UK looks at it as a policy issue,
1 and the US
2 privilege issue. I have to say that in the US, it's only available in
3 civil cases, not in criminal cases. But I believe in civil cases, when
4 the privilege issue comes up, the US
5 there's a waiver by the patient.
6 JUDGE MORRISON: But is that perhaps that the US is a far more
7 litigious society?
8 MR. ROBINSON: We certainly are, yes.
9 JUDGE KWON: Will it be Ms. Sutherland or Mr. Tieger?
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour. Your Honour, Mr. Robinson's
11 objections to the admission of parts of Mrs. Zaimovic's statement, on the
12 basis that it includes evidence of acts not charged in the indictment, is
13 misguided on three fronts. First of all, her evidence is relevant to the
14 charges of terror contained in the indictment. And passages of the
15 paragraphs that Mr. Robinson referred to do contain that.
16 It's also relevant to the allegations of a widespread or
17 systematic attack against the civilian population of Sarajevo, which is
18 contained in the indictment. And as Your Honours know, appellate
19 jurisprudence allows for the admission of evidence related to unscheduled
20 incidents as proof of general elements of the crimes charged.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Kindly slow down when reading for the
22 interpretation, thank you.
23 MS. SUTHERLAND: If I can go to the first point that her evidence
24 is relevant to the charges of terror contained in the indictment.
25 It requires the Prosecution to prove acts or threats resulting in
1 grave consequences to the victim, and grave consequences include death or
2 serious injury as well as psychological impact on the population. And
3 that is to say, evidence of actual terrorisation may contribute to
4 establishing other elements of the crime of terror; for instance, grave
5 consequences. And that's the Dragomir Milosevic Appeals Chamber
6 judgement of the 12th of November, 2009 at paragraphs 33 and 35.
7 Her evidence is also relevant to the allegations of widespread or
8 systematic attack against the civilian population and that's -- I take
9 Your Honours to paragraph 88 of the indictment, and it's well established
10 in the jurisprudence that they -- that the crimes against humanity
11 require proof of the existence of a widespread or systematic attack on
12 the civilian population. And that's Perisic Trial Chamber decision on
13 the Prosecution's submission on interpretation of the Trial Chamber's
14 decision of the 15th of May, 2007, regarding unscheduled incidents.
15 The decision is dated the 31st of October, 2008, and it's at
16 paragraph 11. That decision cites to Article 5 of the Tribunal in
17 Blaskic Trial Chamber judgement of the 3rd of March, 2000, in paragraph
18 98. In fact, it's incorrect and this should be to the Appeals Chamber
19 judgement of the 29th of July, 2004, paragraph 98.
20 Mrs. Zaimovic's evidence is also relevant to the general nature
21 of the shelling and sniping campaign directed against civilians, and the
22 details provided by her in relation to the unscheduled incidents that
23 Mr. Robinson refers to are integral to a necessary -- to evaluate her
25 In relation to the third point that the appellate jurisprudence
1 allows for the admission of evidence related to unscheduled incidents as
2 proof of general elements of the crimes charged, Galic Appeals Chamber
3 judgement of the 30th of November, 2006, paragraph 219 states that
4 evidence regarding additional incidents could be introduced at trial
5 pursuant to Rule 93 of the Rules, in order to prove a consistent pattern
6 of conduct relevant to the charges in the indictment, including a
8 There's also the case of Seselj which we referred to in our OTP
9 first Rule 73 bis submission. And that's the Seselj interlocutory appeal
10 decision on appeal against the Trial Chamber's oral decision of
11 9 January 2008
12 At paragraph 24, where they affirm the Trial Chamber's ruling
13 that evidence of crime sites removed under Rule 73 bis (D) can go towards
14 proving the purposes and methods of a number of things which include the
15 general elements of the persecution campaign.
16 Your Honour, for those reasons, I submit that the evidence that
17 Mr. Robinson wishes to have excluded from paragraphs 10, which discusses
18 an attack -- sorry, a shelling that happened on the 14th of May, 2000
19 1992, and the evidence at paragraphs 16 to 18 which deal with shellings
20 which occurred at a school and in the Otoka area in November 1993, and in
21 relation to the evidence he seeks to have excluded at paragraph 37 which
22 relates to a shelling incidents which occurred on the 10th of October,
24 With respect to the evidence at paragraph 38, which has been
25 discussed between Mr. Robinson and the Bench already, the Prosecution --
1 it's the Prosecution's position that this should be dismissed for a
2 number of reasons, the first being that Mr. Robinson has not established
3 the existence of a physician/patient privilege, and the recognition of
4 such a privilege would frustrate international criminal proceedings, and
5 in any event, in our submission, the type of information at issue is not
6 likely to be governed by a physician/patient privilege.
7 If I can turn to the first bases that he hasn't established --
8 the Rules are obviously silent and that has -- we have been able to find
9 no decision, either ICTY or ICTR that recognises the existence of this
10 privilege under conventional customary international law. Rather, the
11 approach consistent with Tribunal jurisprudence would be that where a
12 third party confidentially exists, as Your Honours have already said, it's
13 for the Trial Chamber who has the discretion to weigh it against the
14 interests of justice, including the need to ensure that all relevant and
15 probative evidence is available to the Chamber.
16 The accused -- or Mr. Robinson, I should say, his general claim
17 that a -- of a medical privilege would not further the objectives.
18 Mr. Karadzic is subject to proceedings for having committed
19 crimes against individuals, and, in our view, he shouldn't be permitted
20 to assert the victim's physician/patient privilege as a bar to allowing
21 relative and probative evidence. This Tribunal was established for the
22 Prosecution of persons responsible for war crimes, crimes against
23 humanity, and genocide. And it is, therefore, evident that either
24 medical records or other evidentiary material connected with medical
25 assistance may be of importance and to allow the Defence to assert the
1 privilege to oppose the use of evidence could lead to the
2 stultification of international criminal proceedings.
3 Your Honour referred to the case of the United States
4 jurisdiction, and it's our submission that even under US law, the fact of
5 a patient stating this to, in fact, a nurse, as opposed to a physician
6 would not be privileged even in the United States.
7 For those reasons, Your Honour, I submit that all of the evidence
8 that Mr. Robinson objects to should be allowed to remain in the
9 amalgamated witness statement.
10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Ms. Sutherland.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE KWON: As regards the paras 10, 16 to 18 and 37, we agree
13 with the observation given by Ms. Sutherland. They are relevant to the
14 general facts regarding terrorising and chapeau and general requirements
15 of the crime of the statute.
16 As regards 38, while we do agree with the Prosecution's
17 submission that in this case that patient and physician privilege is not
18 subject -- is not to be applied in this case, we do not find that
19 paragraph of great probative value; i.e., in order to be admitted as to
20 the truth of the girl's belief that para (A) is too speculative or
21 argumentative. So in that basis, we would not admit that paragraph,
22 i.e., paragraph 38.
23 So your objection is partly overruled and partly granted,
24 Mr. Robinson.
25 That said, shall we begin with our evidence. Let's bring the
1 witness in.
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: The Prosecution calls Fatima Zaimovic.
3 JUDGE KWON: While the witness is being brought in, I was advised
4 that there's an outstanding motion of the addition of 65 ter list to two
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE KWON: I take it there is no objection to it, Mr. Robinson.
8 MR. ROBINSON: That's correct, Mr. President.
9 JUDGE KWON: It is granted.
10 And I was also told there was remaining business from the
11 previous witness, Exhibit 779 or 799. So if you could remind me of that
12 matter later on. Thank you.
13 [The witness entered court]
14 JUDGE KWON: If the witness could take the solemn declaration.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
16 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
17 WITNESS: FATIMA ZAIMOVIC
18 [Witness answered through interpreter]
19 JUDGE KWON: Please, please be seated.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
21 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Sutherland.
22 Examination by Ms. Sutherland:
23 Q. Witness, could you please state your name.
24 A. Fatima Zaimovic is my name.
25 MS. SUTHERLAND: With your leave --
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please go on.
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: With your leave, Mr. President, I will proceed
3 with the requirements of Rule 92 ter.
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
5 MS. SUTHERLAND:
6 Q. Mrs. Zaimovic, on the 26th of February, 2010, you signed an
7 amalgamated statement; is that correct? 2010, yes.
8 A. Yes.
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: I would ask that 65 ter 22274 be brought up onto
10 the screen, please.
11 Q. Is that your signature at the bottom of page 1?
12 A. Yes.
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could we please go to page 13. Sorry, the
14 previous page.
15 Q. Mrs. Zaimovic, you confirmed that this statement was read back to
16 you in the Bosnian language. However, upon reviewing the statement
17 yesterday, you wished to make a correction to one paragraph; is that
19 A. Yes.
20 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could we please go to page 5 of the document.
21 Q. The correction relates to paragraph 15, regarding the first
22 sentence. The words "sniper fire" should read "shell-fire"; is that
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And the two patients from the internal client that are referred
1 to in that first sentence are the two patients referred to -- the same
2 two patients referred to in paragraph 13 above?
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: If we could just go to the previous page,
5 Q. Is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And you don't know of any patients or hospital staff who were
8 killed by sniper fire at the Kosevo Hospital
9 A. I don't.
10 Q. And you wish to correct the statement by deleting --
11 MS. SUTHERLAND: If we can go to the next page, please, where
12 paragraph 15.
13 Q. You wish to correct the statement by deleting the heading
14 directly above paragraph 15 and the first three sentences of paragraph 15
15 which related to those two patients; is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So do you confirm that with the above corrections, your
18 amalgamated statement accurately reflects your evidence and that you
19 would provide the same answers to questions if you were asked under oath
20 about these topics today?
21 A. Yes.
22 MS. SUTHERLAND: Mr. President, at this time I seek to have the
23 amalgamated witness statement 65 ter number 22274 admitted into evidence.
24 JUDGE KWON: Unless it is objected to.
25 MS. SUTHERLAND: With the caveat of the paragraph 38.
1 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. We have no objection, but I
2 would ask if the last sentence of paragraph 15 is being maintained.
3 JUDGE KWON: I take it whole para will be deleted. Am I correct
4 in so understanding?
5 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, the correction the witness wanted
6 to make was in relation to the sniper fire. So it was simply the first
7 three sentences which referred to the two patients.
8 JUDGE KWON: You said three sentences.
9 MR. ROBINSON: I'm referring, myself, where she said: "From time
10 to time, I found pieces of bullets and slugs in an attic room --"
11 MS. SUTHERLAND: That's the fourth sentence. So we simply are
12 asking for the first three sentences to be redacted and the heading.
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes. So you will produce a redacted version later
15 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. It will be admitted as?
17 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P814, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE KWON: 814. Thank you.
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: With Your Honours leave, I'll now read a brief
20 summary of the witness's evidence.
21 Mrs. Zaimovic has lived all of her life in Sarajevo in Bosnia
23 Surgery Department of the Kosevo Hospital
24 working in that position throughout the war, 1992 to 1995.
25 During this time, Mrs. Zaimovic kept her own diary about the
1 patients wounded during the war. She listed in her notes the names of
2 331 wounded children treated in the Children's Surgery Department of the
3 Kosevo Hospital
4 State Hospital
5 Traumatology Clinic.
6 Mrs. Zaimovic describes in detail the consequences of the
7 shelling and sniping on patients and staff and traumatisation suffered by
8 the children. The Kosevo Hospital
9 throughout the war, and a number of staff were killed as a result of
11 The witness was working at the hospital when it was shelled,
12 killing two patients and wounding another who were hospitalised in the
13 nearby internal medicine clinic.
14 Mrs. Zaimovic witnessed, on a regular basis, the tank shelling --
15 a tank shelling Sarajevo
17 Mrs. Zaimovic describes treating patients from shellings which
18 occurred at the Fatima Gunic school on 9 November 1993 and at Otoka on
19 10 November 1993
20 gas explosions.
21 The witness describes the shortage of utilities and medical
22 supplies and conditions under which she and her colleagues operated in
23 the hospital during the war, in particular the problems related to the
24 lack of electricity and sufficient water. Operating conditions were very
25 difficult, especially in the winter.
1 Mrs. Zaimovic also describes the personal sniping incidents and
2 consequences of shelling and sniping on the witness and her family. The
3 witness felt constant fear throughout the war, afraid for her family, and
4 for the injured and wounded children.
5 Your Honours, that concludes the brief summary of the witness’s
6 evidence, and I now intend to question the witness for approximately
7 25 minutes.
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please.
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: And to highlight various aspects of her
11 Q. Mrs. Zaimovic, as your amalgamated witness statement is now in
12 evidence in this case, I will be asking you only a limited number of
13 questions relating to matters contained in your statement. Before I do
14 that, I would like you to orient the Trial Chamber as to the location of
15 the Kosevo Hospital
16 MS. SUTHERLAND: And I would ask that 65 ter number 11791 be
17 brought up onto the screen, please.
18 Your Honours, this is a map of Sarajevo and its environs, and
19 it's map 1 in the Sarajevo
20 distributed to Your Honours and the accused and the parties.
21 Q. Mrs. Zaimovic, are you able to point to the area where the
22 Kosevo Hospital
23 A. Kosevo Hospital
24 stadium, the sports stadium here, it's here roughly. That's where it is.
25 Somewhere around here.
1 Q. Okay.
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I would seek to tender 65 ter
3 number 11791 into evidence but without the witness's marking.
4 JUDGE KWON: Without the marking.
5 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes. It was simply to orient you as to where
6 the hospital was situated.
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes. It will be admitted.
8 MR. ROBINSON: As Exhibit P815, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: I ask that 65 ter number 09390A be brought up
11 onto the screen.
12 Q. Mrs. Zaimovic, do you recognise what is marked in red directly
13 below the word "Breka" on the map?
14 A. Right underneath that word is the entire complex -- or compound
15 of the Kosevo Hospital
17 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I seek to tender that document --
18 that cropped map into evidence.
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
20 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P816, Your Honour.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND:
22 Q. While we still have that map on the screen, are you able to point
23 to where the main entrance road is.
24 A. It is here, around Bolnicka street. That's where the entrance
25 would be. The hospital actually had two entrances, one the main entrance
1 and the other one the back entrance, as it were. One was close to the
2 orthopaedic clinic, right above the hospital itself. So those are the
3 two entrances that existed. This was the main entrance, and this is
4 where most of the ambulances entered the hospital premises. It's in this
5 first part here where Bolnicka street is.
6 Q. Yes. And you -- your marking is where the -- the brown -- the
7 line -- the road is marked in brown on the Bolnicka street side.
8 MS. SUTHERLAND: I would ask that Rule 65 --
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: I would ask that Rule 65 ter number 22797 be
11 brought up onto the screen, please.
12 Q. Mrs. Zaimovic, do you recognise what's shown in this satellite
13 aerial image?
14 A. I think that this is the entire hospital compound. If you wish,
15 I can point it out to you. It is this part around here. That's the
16 compound of the hospital where I worked.
17 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Sutherland, do you like the witness to mark
18 the --
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
20 Q. If you can draw with a light pen.
21 A. What is it that you would like me to point out?
22 Q. The grounds of the Kosevo Hospital
23 A. [Marks]
24 Q. Can you also point to the location of the Children's Surgery
25 Department during the war.
1 A. The Children's Surgery Department was close to the main gate.
2 These are three big Austrian buildings. That's it. We were in the first
3 building here. That's where our department was. These buildings are
4 linked by long corridors or halls. Also, the clinic of urology was
5 there, pulmonology, the operation rooms, and so on. Neurosurgery was
6 there as well, but it was moved to another area afterwards, but basically
7 all the surgery departments were in this area, along with five operation
8 rooms that were on the ground floor.
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I didn't intend to tender a marked
10 diagram, but for the -- for the record, the witness pointed to where the
11 Children's Surgery Department was, and it's the -- the second building,
12 the most southern -- south-eastern building on the -- on the image within
13 the compound, the Kosevo Hospital
14 I would seek to tender that document into -- that image into
15 evidence, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE KWON: As marked. As marked by the witness or without
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: Without the marking, or if -- if -- if we --
19 JUDGE KWON: Why don't we admit the marked version --
20 MS. SUTHERLAND: Marked version [overlapping speakers]
21 JUDGE KWON: Mrs. Zaimovic, if you could kindly sign your
22 signature on that image and date of today.
23 MS. SUTHERLAND: If it's going to be --
24 JUDGE KWON: Which is 5th of May.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Today's the 5th; right? Is it the
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: And as we're going to admit a marked one,
3 Your Honour, perhaps Mrs. Zaimovic could put a C where the Children's
4 Surgery Department is. Just above the building.
5 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you.
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes. That will be admitted as?
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the unannotated map will be
9 Exhibit --
10 JUDGE KWON: No, I don't think we need to admit the --
11 THE REGISTRAR: The annotated map will be P817.
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Thank you. Let's move on.
13 MS. SUTHERLAND:
14 Q. I wish to now turn to matters contained in your statement. I
15 have a number of questions related to the notes that you kept before the
17 MS. SUTHERLAND: And for the benefit of the Court and the
18 accused, this is mentioned in paragraph 9 of the statement.
19 Q. Mrs. Zaimovic, you stated that you kept this personal diary
20 regarding the patients wounded during the war who were treated in the
21 Children's Surgery Department. How did you keep the diary? Was it --
22 was it a typed notes, handwritten notes? How was the -- how was the
24 A. Sometimes when I'd have time, I'd type it out on a regular
25 typewriter. There weren't any computers in our hospital at the time.
1 Sometimes I'd write it in my own hand. You can see in the diary itself
2 that the handwriting is sometimes a bit more nervous, looks scribbled.
3 In addition to this diary that I kept as the head nurse, I also submitted
4 regular reports that went to the administrative service, the
5 administration of the hospital. This is something that was personal, for
6 my very own point of view. It had to do with the very special situation
7 involved when wounded children were brought into the hospital. Every one
8 of these children had a story to tell, as it were, in view of that most
9 unfortunate situation.
10 Q. Mrs. Zaimovic, I want to concentrate just on the questions in
11 relation to the keeping of the diary. So the handwriting, whose
12 handwriting was it, all of the handwritten entries, are they all your
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And the typed records?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. When did you record the names of the patients?
18 A. I recorded patients names when they would be brought in, or
19 perhaps a bit later when I'd have enough time in view of all the work I
20 had then.
21 Q. And the dates, are they all in chronological order?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You said that you kept the notes for your own -- you said it was
24 something personal for your very own point of view. Did you -- did you
25 list every wounded child? Did you manage to do that?
1 A. For the most part, every wounded child, I think. Maybe there may
2 be some that I omitted to -- to record, but for the most part it's all of
4 Q. What information did you generally record for each patient?
5 A. The name and surname of the child, the date when the child was
6 admitted, the child's date of birth, the address of residence or the
7 address from which the child had come, and the neighbourhood, the part of
8 town that the child had come from. Also, the patient's diagnosis. The
9 diagnosis was recorded by the doctors, of course. I would just copy it
10 out from the other document. And also there would be date when the
11 patient was discharged or died or was transferred to another clinic or
12 was transferred to another country.
13 Q. How were the majority of injuries to the children sustained?
14 A. All children that were brought in and that were recorded in this
15 diary were injured by shrapnel or sniper fire. A very small number of
16 children were also injured by phosphorous shells, those that cause burns,
17 and some were injured by gas explosions.
18 Q. Do you know approximately how many wounded children were treated
19 in the hospital in 1992?
20 A. In 1992, 163 children were brought to our clinic. Out of the
21 163, nine died at the clinic itself, but all the children that died on
22 the spot were not brought to our clinic. They were brought to the morgue
23 directly or to the mortuary where we sent our own patients who had passed
24 away while in hospital.
25 MS. SUTHERLAND: I would ask that 65 ter number 16843 be brought
1 up onto the screen, please.
2 Q. Mrs. Zaimovic, do you recognise this document?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What is it?
5 A. They are my impressions, the ones that I recorded and wrote down
6 personally. My feelings, what I felt on that day, the day here being the
7 10th of October, 1992, what the situation was like around me and within
8 me. It was something personal.
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could we go to the next page, please.
10 Q. Mrs. Zaimovic, what is shown on page 2?
11 A. Page 2 shows the names and surnames of the patients who had gone
12 outside the country, who were very seriously injured, and they were sent
13 with the physicians of the world to be helped and treated further,
14 because we were no longer able to do anything for them. We didn't have
15 the necessary resources or equipment to deal with these extremely
16 difficult cases, severely wounded children. And some of them left in
17 1992, some in 1993, and perhaps some children left later, which I might
18 not have recorded in this list, but mostly these are children that went
19 abroad for treatment. There were 32 of them.
20 MS. SUTHERLAND: Can we go to the next page, please.
21 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Sutherland, just to note, this is page 3 in
23 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE KWON: Let's move on. Page 2 in English. You're right.
25 MS. SUTHERLAND:
1 Q. Ms. Zaimovic, can you describe very, very briefly what is on
2 page 4 of the B/C/S and 3 of the English?
3 A. Here you can see the names of patients who were wounded on the
4 9th of September, 2002, their names, their date of birth, the type of
5 injury they sustained and the day they were discharged. Here we have a
6 little boy, his name was Sergije Bjelos, who was wounded in 1992 on the
7 14th of September, and his wounds were so severe that he died as a result
8 of his injuries. There are quite a few more names. If you would like me
9 to read them out, I will do so and I can say a few words about them. Of
10 course, it's been a long time since then, so I might not remember them
11 all, but most of them I do. All those children are constantly with me.
12 I remember them.
13 Q. Mrs. Zaimovic, as we have only a limited amount of time, I want
14 to take you to certain entries in this -- in this -- in your diary.
15 MS. SUTHERLAND: I would ask that we go to page 14 of the B/C/S
16 and page 12 of the English please.
17 Q. Mrs. Zaimovic, I draw your attention to entry which is numbered
18 210, Muamer Mrdic.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And also entry number 212, Camo.
21 A. Yes. And what do you want me to tell you?
22 Q. What -- what is the date that -- that the patients were treated?
23 A. Muamer Mrdic was admitted on the 1st of May, I think it was, as
24 far as I can see here, 1993, and he was born on the 17th of February,
25 1974. The date of discharge is the 6th of July, 1993.
1 Q. Mrs. Zaimovic -- if I can interrupt you there.
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could we blow-up the B/C/S, please, so that you
3 can see the date clearly. It's not --
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 1st of May, 1993. He came from
5 Dobrinja. And he had a very serious injury to his abdomen with his
6 injuries to the colon, and so on, a rupture to the colon, and he was
7 discharged in July 1993, but he came in in May, and he spent almost two
8 months in our hospital.
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Mrs. Zaimovic, do you see the date of the -- of
10 the victim -- the patient, sorry, above Colic --
11 A. Colic. Esmeralda Colic, yes, I see that. The 31st of May,
12 2003 [as interpreted].
13 Q. Mrs. Zaimovic, you have the original of your diary in front of
14 you. Do you want to look at the original which is a better copy of, I
15 think, what we have on the screen, just to check whether the date is in
16 fact, the 1st of May?
17 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, may the witness be given leave to
18 refer to her -- to her original notes.
19 JUDGE KWON: No problem. But, Ms. Zaimovic, could you find
20 Muamer Mrdic in the list. To me, his date of birth looks like 1st of
21 June; is it not correct?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I just take a moment, please.
23 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I --
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 1st of June,
25 '06 [as interpreted].
1 MS. SUTHERLAND: And that was the date that he was admitted.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 1st of June, 1993, yes, that's
3 right. So this is a mistake here.
4 MS. SUTHERLAND: [Overlapping speakers]
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's the 1st of June here.
6 Q. And the date of birth, is that next to his name?
7 A. The date of birth is the 17th of February, 1979. The 17th of
8 February, 1979.
9 Q. And in relation to Mrdic and also Camo, is the date -- sorry, for
10 the date for Camo, is that also the 1st of June, 1993, as being the date
12 A. Yes, that's right, the 1st of June. Three children were admitted
13 on that same day, the 1st of June. The 1st of June there, the 1st of
14 June, and the 1st of June, including Camo, Samir. He came on the 1st of
15 June, 1993, as well.
16 Q. [Overlapping speakers]
17 A. And he was born in --
18 Q. Sorry for interrupting. Do you know in relation to number 210
19 and 212 the -- where they came from? I think you mentioned already that
20 Mrdic came from Dobrinja. Do you know where Camo came from?
21 A. Yes. Camo came from Petra Drepsin street, number 1. Now, where
22 that street was, I can't tell you now. I really don't know, but that's
23 the street name. I don't know where it is.
24 JUDGE KWON: I'm sorry, Ms. Sutherland, I don't want to interrupt
25 with these minor questions, but I found that the entry numbers are not
1 matching between the English translation and B/C/S.
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, if you look at --
3 JUDGE KWON: Samir Camo has no number, while Irfan Sehovic has
4 212, but if you look at original, Camo is numbered as 212.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Camo, Samir is 212, yes.
6 JUDGE KWON: With that note, we shall proceed.
7 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, I would now ask to go to page 30 in the
8 B/C/S and 21 of the English -- I'm sorry. Before we do that --
9 Q. Mrs. Zaimovic, could you just give a very brief description of
10 the injuries of Mrdic and Camo.
11 A. Mrdic, Muamer had an injury to the abdomen and a fracture of the
12 femur due to a shell explosion, and he sustained several types of injury,
13 in fact. Camo, Samir had head injuries and the femur of the fracture and
14 the upper leg, and those are the type of injuries that people sustain
15 when a shell explodes. They have multiple injuries, not just one but
16 multiple injuries, and these children came in that way, injuries caused
17 by shells exploding.
18 Q. Okay. Now I'll move on to another entry, page 30 of the B/C/S
19 and page 21 of the English, please. Mrs. Zaimovic, I ask you to look at
20 entry number 291. What was the date this patient was treated? First of
21 all, the patient's name.
22 A. Who do you mean, Kapetanovic, Muhamed Kapetanovic? Is that the
23 one? 291, yes.
24 Q. Yes. What date was he treated?
25 A. He arrived on the 22nd of January, 1994.
1 Q. Do you know where he was brought from?
2 A. He arrived from Alipasino Polje. And in my diary, I recorded
3 that six other children died -- were killed together with him, and that's
4 what happened.
5 [Prosecution counsel confer]
6 JUDGE BAIRD: Ms. Zaimovic, I'm looking at the English
7 translation. Amina Birdzo, that also entry 291 in the English version?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 292 --
9 JUDGE BAIRD: 292.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- is Amina Birdzo --
11 JUDGE BAIRD: Thank you.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- a girl. She was hit by a
14 JUDGE BAIRD: 292. Thank you.
15 MS. SUTHERLAND:
16 Q. I would now go to another entry on page 31 of the B/C/S and page
17 22 of the English.
18 Mrs. Zaimovic, I ask you to look at entry number 294.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. The name of that patient is Sabahudin --
21 A. Sabahudin, Ljusa, yes.
22 Q. [Overlapping speakers] patient?
23 A. Born in 1983 and came to the clinic on the 4th of February, 1994
24 Q. Do you know where this patient was brought from?
25 A. From Dobrinja.
1 Q. That reference to 3 Oslobodilaca Sarajevo street, what does that
2 refer to?
3 A. It's the street he lived in. That's the street he lived in. The
4 name of the street. Sarajevo
5 Q. If we could go to the next entry, number 295. What date was this
6 patient treated and the name of the patient?
7 A. This patient was admitted on the 5th of February, 1994.
8 Denis Stuhlik, born in 1979. Ilija Grbic street is where he lived in
10 Q. I'd now like to turn to page 32 of the B/C/S but still page 22 of
11 the English. Mrs. Zaimovic, if you look at entry number 296.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And the name of this patient?
14 A. Nejla Basic, born in 1991, also wounded at Markale market. On
15 the same date, the 5th of February, 1994.
16 Q. And if I can turn to page 33 of the B/C/S, still on page 22 of
17 the English. I'm sorry, if you look at the next entry, number 297. I'm
18 sorry. Could you -- could you --
19 A. The 5th of February, 1994, that's when she was admitted.
20 Enesa Daidzic. Enesa, mother of the child, born in 1952. That's
21 the mother of the child. And we have her child, too, also -- she and her
22 child were wounded at the marketplace, but they recovered from their
23 wounds. They weren't killed.
24 Q. And what does it say in the second column in relation to their
1 A. The mother had wounds from explosives in -- injured in her leg
2 and in the thorax. And the child had an injury above her knee from the
3 shells. The shrapnels from shells hit them and wounded them.
4 Q. And if we can turn to page 33 of the B/C/S and still on page 22
5 of the English and is that entry number 298?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And again does it say this is in relation to Aldijan Daidzic.
8 Does it say where he came from?
9 A. Aldijan Daidzic, yes. On the 5th of February, 1994, was when he
10 was admitted together with his mother. Sutjeska street, Sarajevo
11 the address. That's where they both lived. You see that Sutjeska street
12 is recorded for the mother and child. And it says in brackets that the
13 mother and child were together. They had both undergone a great shock so
14 you couldn't separate the mother and the child.
15 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour I seek to tender 65 ter 16843 into
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
18 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P818, Your Honours.
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: I would ask that 65 ter number 22798 be brought
20 up onto the screen, please.
21 JUDGE KWON: While we are waiting for that, how much longer do
22 you have with this witness? Because I'm seeing the clock.
23 MS. SUTHERLAND: Maybe five, ten minutes, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Let's move on.
25 MS. SUTHERLAND: These entries are taking a little bit longer
1 than I anticipated.
2 Q. Mrs. Zaimovic, do you recognise that document on the screen?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What is it?
5 A. You mean from number 1 onwards?
6 Q. Well, if -- if -- if --
7 A. Yes. These two lists.
8 Q. Is this -- is this list also part of your diary?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And this is -- this is actually the beginning of the diary as
11 opposed to the last document we saw which started with patient number 98,
12 I think; is that correct?
13 A. Yes. This is the beginning. This is when the children first
14 arrived in our clinic. The first child was Emir Zolj and then
15 further down the list, and the injuries became more and more severe as
16 you go down the list.
17 Q. Now, with this document here, if -- if -- these were -- these
18 were pages that you produced to the Office of the Prosecutor at a
19 different time to the -- to the first lot of pages; is that right?
20 A. Well, I think the Prosecutor took what he considered necessary,
21 and I think you did the same. You took what you felt you needed, and
22 among those documents is this first page, and I'm happy to see that you
23 took that page because these were very seriously injured children. For
24 us in the health sector, the injuries were shocking. A little girl
25 suffered from paraplegia. There were very serious injuries which we had
1 never seen before, the likes of which we'd never seen.
2 Q. Mrs. Zaimovic, if we can just bring up -- back Exhibit P818,
3 please. Quickly.
4 A. Which number?
5 Q. Just one moment. And if we could go to the -- once the document
6 comes up. The last exhibit, the one that -- just page 1. Page 1. And
7 then if you could go to the very end page. Page 35 in the B/C/S and
8 page 23 in the English.
9 Mrs. Zaimovic, you see that this last number in this document
10 goes up to number 307. If you look at the screen --
11 A. Yes. Yes. I'm looking for it. Just let me take a moment,
12 please. Here it is, yes. Go ahead.
13 Q. And the beginning of these patients, if we can go back to page 2
14 of the English and page 3 of the B/C/S. Page 3 of the English - I'm
15 sorry - starts on patient 99. You agree?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. If we can -- if we can now bring back onto the screen the
18 document we just had, and that was document number 22798. Mrs. Zaimovic,
19 were you asked to provide the list of the patients either side of
20 patients number 99 to 307 the other day, so patients numbered 1 to -- to
21 98, and then patients 308 to 331?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And in relation to that, when you provided the -- the additional
24 pages this year, you said that there was some changing in numbers;
25 is that correct?
1 A. Yes. The numbers were corrected a long time ago. When we saw
2 that mistakes had been made, they were corrected and aligned with the
3 number of children, and that's quite normal. You know, when you're
4 writing under a situation of that kind, which was a terrible time, you
5 tend to make a mistake in the number of children. It's not the number
6 that's important. What is important is just how many children were
7 killed and how many children were wounded. That is the most important
8 thing in all this. And it's terrible.
9 Q. And the numbers --
10 A. You ought to speak about that.
11 Q. And the numbers changed, correct me if I'm wrong, because there
12 were some handwritten entries within the typed pages; is that correct?
13 A. Yes. Now, why was that changed? Well, I realised that I had
14 omitted to list some of the children because I had a lot of work to do.
15 I was very busy and I was under a lot of stress. And then when I
16 remembered, I would add them in and correct the numbers, and you can see
17 that for yourselves.
18 Q. Okay. If we can go to page 16 of the B/C/S of this document and
19 page 14 of the English. If I can ask you to look at entry numbered 308.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Can you tell us when this patient was admitted?
22 A. This patient was admitted on the 24th of May, 1995.
23 Q. How old is this patient?
24 A. His name was Drazen Gelo, and he was born on the
25 10th of September, 1993.
1 Q. Do you know where he was brought from?
2 A. The street that he was brought from was called Safeta Zajke number
3 88. His father's name was Ivan, and the wound he sustained was from an
4 explosive device, from an explosion, and part of the shell, the shrapnel
5 and metal remained lodged in his body.
6 Q. I would ask to go to page 23 of the B/C/S and page 18 of the
7 English. And I draw your attention to number 328. When was this patient
8 admitted to the hospital?
9 A. Andreja Svoboda was the name, admitted on the 28th of August,
10 1995 --
11 Q. And how old --
12 A. -- from Sarajevo
13 Q. And do you know where she was brought from?
14 A. From Sarajevo
15 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I seek to tender that document into
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be Exhibit Number P819.
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I don't know when you wanted to
20 take the break, and I know that I have taken a lot longer than half an
21 hour in relation to these diary entries, but I would ask for your
22 indulgence for another ten minutes, five to ten minutes with this
23 witness. I have another --
24 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
25 MS. SUTHERLAND: -- six questions.
1 JUDGE KWON: We will adjourn for 25 minutes.
2 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.
3 --- On resuming at 4.10 p.m.
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Sutherland.
5 MS. SUTHERLAND:
6 Q. Mrs. Zaimovic, in your statement at paragraph 36, you say mention
7 that children were very frightened and traumatised. Can you describe
8 briefly for the Court the children's reactions to the sniping and the
10 A. All the children who came to our clinic were traumatised, first
11 of all, because of the injuries they had sustained. After that, they
12 were hospitalised. Shelling went on in town, and whenever a shell fell,
13 they would jump out of bed. They were traumatised. They were afraid.
14 Some of them peed in their beds. They were terrified. They asked the
15 nurses to protect them, to help them. It was very hard to deal with
16 them. It was very hard to carry out medical interventions. So this war
17 trauma was more than visible in that period on all the children. It was
18 particularly difficult when we had to move the children into basements,
19 halls, in such conditions and it was simply substandard, but that's the
20 way it was.
21 Q. How often did this occur when you were having to take children to
22 the basement?
23 A. Well, you know, it depended on the shelling. Children would be
24 taken out in the middle of the day, in the middle of the night. The
25 heavier the shelling, the more likely it was. Then we would be
1 instructed to take the children to shelters, basements as quickly as
2 possible. That was the only way in which we could help them.
3 Q. Was this happening on a regular basis?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What was the psychological impact on the children as a result of
6 the sniping and the shelling that you were -- that you witnessed?
7 THE ACCUSED: Objection, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The distinguished Ms. Sutherland is
10 putting many leading questions, and she is putting questions to the
11 witness as if she were a psychiatrist or an expert. She's a witness
12 here. She's not a psychiatrist. And now she is dealing with certain
13 matters that are not for this witness to speak about. Perhaps somebody
14 else could.
15 JUDGE KWON: She would --
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I answer?
17 JUDGE KWON: No, Mrs. Zaimovic, it's for the Chamber.
18 Mr. Karadzic, what she asked is the symptom or the phenomenon as
19 she witnessed or observed. As such, there's -- there's nothing the
20 witness should be prohibited from saying anything. The objection is
22 Let's proceed.
23 MS. SUTHERLAND:
24 Q. Mrs. Zaimovic, you may answer the question.
25 A. After the shelling, the children -- a great many children started
1 wetting their beds. Before that, they hadn't done that. When a shell
2 would be fired, they would start screaming so hard, and they'd flee to
3 the nurses, asking them for protection. That is truly what happened at
4 the clinic.
5 Q. When you said the shells would be fired, where would -- what
6 would they be fired on?
7 A. Shells were falling all over the place. They were shooting at
8 will. Whatever -- they did whatever they wanted to do. They shelled
9 apartments, buildings, marketplaces, wherever. Whatever they wanted to
11 Q. How often -- I'll rephrase the question. How -- was -- you
12 mentioned in your statement that the hospital was shelled on a number of
13 occasions. What was the result of -- of the shelling in relation to the
14 actual Children's Surgery Department building?
15 A. Our building was shelled. It's a big building built in the
16 Austrian times. It has enormous windows, and all of the windows were
17 broken. There was no glass on any of the windows. Can you imagine what
18 it's like to work under these conditions in such rooms?
19 Q. Did you witness -- in relation to the children, did you witness
20 any other impacts on them as a result of the shelling and the sniping?
21 You mentioned that the children were wetting the bed.
22 A. They were frightened always. Whenever they'd hear anything loud,
23 they would jump out of bed. They were drawing things because we tried to
24 calm them down in that way. Whatever they drew was a reflection of the
25 war. You could not see a child draw a pretty picture. All of them had
1 to do with the war, burning, shelling, and the like.
2 Q. I want to turn now to the shelling and the sniping that -- that
3 you were involved in. What effect did -- did the shelling of your
4 residential building, which you mentioned in paragraph 43 of your
5 statement, what effect did that have on you and your family?
6 A. Our building was shelled often like all other buildings. As for
7 my own apartment, a shell fell in the bedroom. Thankfully we weren't
8 there at the time. But, indeed, we were all frightened. Believe me, the
9 entire family was frightened. Whenever you'd go to the hospital or
10 wherever, you didn't dare look. Somehow you'd keep your head down, and
11 you'd be thinking that your turn had come, that you'd be the victim of
12 such a shell or of a sniper.
13 I was terribly frightened. I have to tell you that in all
15 Q. And what psychological or physical injuries do you suffer from
16 today as a result of the shelling and sniping which occurred in Sarajevo
17 in 1992 and -- between 1992 and 1995?
18 A. Not sniper or shelling, but once, when my husband and I had set
19 out to work, someone had aimed at us with a sniper. Thankfully we were
20 not hit. It was near the entrance to the orthopaedics clinic. Somehow
21 the sniper fired between myself and my husband, and then we decided not
22 to go to work together.
23 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I have no further questions. And a
24 redacted version of the witness's statement, Exhibit P814, has been
25 uploaded with the redactions to paragraphs 15 and 38.
1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Ms. Sutherland.
2 Mr. Karadzic.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Excellency. I omitted
4 to say that the previous question that I was referring to, whether it was
5 a regular thing, et cetera, in my view that was a leading question, but
6 let it be.
7 Cross-examination by Karadzic:
8 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Ms. Zaimovic.
9 A. Good afternoon, Mr. Karadzic, and I'm glad to see you here in
10 this courtroom.
11 Q. I'm glad to see you as well. Tell me, please, when did you come
12 from Mitrovica to Sarajevo
13 A. As a three-month-old baby.
14 Q. I see. Is this your maiden name?
15 A. No, my maiden name is Arifovic.
16 Q. Thank you. What does your husband do?
17 A. My husband is a lawyer.
18 Q. What was he before that?
19 A. What do you mean before that?
20 Q. Did he do something in the meantime. I mean, what was his
21 education? Did he complete any kind of school?
22 A. He completed a secondary medical school. I think he socialised
23 with you and some other people from that school, and then he entered
24 university and then got a university degree.
25 Q. Well, that's what I wanted to ask you about, because I'd be
1 surprised if he hadn't told you that we had been friends.
2 A. He did tell me that, yes.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 JUDGE KWON: Please bear that in mind, that since you are
5 speaking the same language, please put a pause between question and
6 answers. Let's proceed.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you very much,
8 and I do apologise.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Can you tell me where you lived at Breka, which street?
11 A. Hasan Susic is the name of my street, and it's number 7.
12 Q. We knew Hasan Susic as well, didn't we? Tell me, when did you
13 move there?
14 A. We moved there in 1986.
15 Q. You moved to that apartment, you mean?
16 A. Yes, that's right.
17 Q. How did you go to work? Did you walk or did you take the car?
18 A. We walked.
19 Q. What street or through which streets?
20 A. Are you familiar with the area?
21 Q. Yes, yes.
22 A. We'd just go down by one building, we'd go through the passage
23 and then we'd enter the orthopaedics clinic.
24 Q. So the second row of houses at Breka; right?
25 A. Yes, yes.
1 Q. So where did they fire at you with a sniper?
2 A. On the steps between the entrance and the entrance into the
3 orthopaedics clinic.
4 Q. Is it true that your department for children's orthopaedics is
5 the best hospital for that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Is the best hospital, but it's actually the best clinic, too.
8 Were children treated elsewhere as well?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Were children treated elsewhere as well, I mean, by surgeons?
11 A. You know what the town was like -- or, rather, you don't know
12 because you were shooting from up there. Children were being treated at
13 the state hospital, in Dobrinska Hospital
14 department and some also came to the traumatology department, but most
15 children were brought to us.
16 Q. Thank you. When did you become head nurse?
17 A. I became head nurse in 1979.
18 Q. I'm a bit perplexed by something here. It says that that's what
19 you did from September 1992 until August 1994. What does that mean?
20 A. Could you repeat that? I don't understand.
21 Q. Well, that's what you said in your statement of the 18th of
22 January, 2002, in the Galic case. The page is 1843. Namely, that you
23 held that position between September 1992, and August 1994. Is this a
24 new position?
25 A. It's no position. I became the head nurse of the clinic in 1979,
1 and that's what I did up until my retirement. I retired three years ago.
2 Q. I don't understand why it says here that you worked from
3 September 1992 until August 1994 at that position.
4 A. I don't understand that either.
5 Q. Were there any changes in your position, in your professional
6 position in September 1992?
7 A. The only thing was that I was an assistant at the higher medical
8 school, and I worked as a teacher at the secondary medical school in
9 addition to the regular work that I did, because my students would come
10 to the clinic as well.
11 Q. Very well. Thank you. This remains unclear. Tell me, you knew
12 all the doctors in that compound quite well, didn't you?
13 A. Well, for the most part, I knew my own doctors, the ones that I
14 worked with, and the surgeons for the most part. At some of the other
15 clinics, I knew most of the doctors, but you cannot really know everyone.
16 You know how big the clinical centre is. You cannot really know
18 Q. I have to wait. This street that you referred to, Bolnicka, is
19 that the former street called Mose Pijade?
20 A. It was always called Bolnicka.
21 Q. When I lived there, it was called Mosa Pijade; isn't that right?
22 A. Bolnicka 25, well perhaps your part down this was called maybe
23 Mosa Pijade, but this was called Bolnicka 25.
24 Q. I guess that Mosa did something wrong because the whole street
25 used to be called Mosa Pijade. Do you know why it was changed?
1 A. Well, probably because all streets in Sarajevo changed their
3 Q. So you knew professor Borisa Starovic, Professor Jovo Vranic,
4 Professor Milutin Najdanovic, Andrija Gvozdenovic,
5 Nemanja Veljkov.
6 A. Yes, I knew all of them.
7 Q. You also knew -- well, we have to wait for the interpretation.
8 You knew Milica Lopandic as well, didn't you?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. In your statement here, the one from the 9th of April, 2000, that
11 is, on page 00938863, paragraph 3 -- actually, before that as well. In
12 the amalgamated statement of the 26th of February, in paragraph 3, you
13 say that before the outbreak of the war, some of the Serbs had left the
14 hospital. Can you shed more light on that? When did they start leaving
15 the hospital and why?
16 A. Serbs left the hospital for the most part when the war started.
17 Some Serbs like Andrija Gvozdenovic, your friend, got ill all of a
18 sudden, sprained his ankle. What an excuse. And then he did not work in
19 hospital for at least five or six months. From time to time he would
20 come to see us. And on the basis of his views and his statements, we
21 could realise that something was in the making, that something was going
23 Q. Oh, so they hadn't left before the war, but when the war broke
25 A. Yes, when the war broke out.
1 Q. Then the statement should be corrected. Isn't that right? Isn't
2 that right? Shouldn't the statement be corrected? It's not that they
3 left before the outbreak of the war but when the war broke out.
4 A. They left when the war broke out.
5 Q. Further on you stay in your statement dated the
6 9th of April, 2000, 0038863, paragraph 4, that's the reference, that most
7 of the Serbs and Croats who were doctors stayed on, but they slowly
8 started leaving one by one; isn't that right?
9 A. Yes, that's right.
10 Q. Then you said on the 18th of January, 2002, transcript
11 reference -- rather is the Galic transcript, IT-282 --
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We cannot catch the
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Paragraph 12. Fifteen nurses left, and two Croat women and three
16 Serb women stayed there and continued working.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Until when did they work at the clinic?
19 A. Who do you mean?
20 Q. You said that it was two Croat women and three Serb women that
21 stayed at work?
22 A. Yes. The Croat women who had stayed on still worked there. They
23 were young nurses. One of the Serb nurses was pensioned off and she
24 left, and the other one left too. So, indeed, they were with us all the
25 way up until the end of the war.
1 Q. Thank you. What about some of the doctors who happened to be at
2 their weekend cottages when the war broke out? Did they try to come
3 back? Do you remember that?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Professor Mirko Sosic, for example. He stayed on for a while and
6 tried to work, right?
7 A. Yes, he did work. I don't know whether he had returned from his
8 weekend cottage. I don't know about that. I just know that he returned,
9 that he started working, and then he and his wife left the city.
10 Q. Thank you. Does this sound accurate to you, namely that Sarajevo
11 was left by almost 250 doctors, physicians, primarily Professors
12 Starovic; Sucur; Radivojevic; Kaufer, Leopold Kaufer; Guzina; Dusan
13 Vukatic [phoen]; Marko Vukovic, and so on?
14 A. Leopold Kaufer did not leave town. He stayed in town and he died
15 in town. As for the rest, they followed you to Pale, because you
16 probably brought pressure to bear, in that sense. So they all left us.
17 No one was trying to get rid of them. They left of their own accord.
18 Q. Mrs. Fatima, I understand your emotions, but if you are saying
19 that I exerted pressure on them, then I will have to spend a lot of time
20 proving that that is not true. You will agree that I am not a magician
21 so that I could lure 250 doctors to leave Sarajevo; right?
22 A. No, you're not, but that's what your policy was.
23 Q. Well, now, did they flee from your policy or did they run towards
24 my policy? That is a case that has to be proven. Do you remember that
25 Professor Surgeon Borisa Starovic was also a victim of sniper fire?
1 A. I don't know. I really don't know, but I know that he was ill
2 and that because of his illness he left. That's what he had said anyway.
3 Q. However, that was so well known, and as a matter of fact, he was
4 even forced to say that he was the victim of Serb fire, although Serbs
5 were not firing anywhere nearby, but never mind, let's move on.
6 A. I'd like to ask you something. Please don't bother me with all
7 of that, who left, why they left, et cetera. I came here to say how many
8 children and civilians you targeted with your army, as if they were balls
9 or objects down there. That's what I came to say. Believe me, they all
10 know why they left the city, but that's not what I came to talk about
12 Q. I believe that I do have the right to ask you everything that you
13 knew about and everything that you had touched upon. You said that we
14 were shelling, and you said that we were shelling all of the city,
15 although you couldn't see that, so please don't get angry. I have to
16 illuminate all of these matters. Nothing should remain unclear. This is
17 a criminal court. This is not a debate club. So we have to clarify
18 everything. We have to see whether you know something or whether you had
19 heard of other things, and so on.
20 JUDGE KWON: Exactly as you said. This is not a debate club.
21 Just ask questions, Mr. Karadzic.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I hope, Excellency, that you are
23 going to protect me. If you don't protect me then I have to say this,
24 because I cannot accept the limit that the witness is imposing on me.
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we do protect you, as long as you are asking
1 relevant questions. Let's proceed.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Mrs. Zaimovic, you said in your statement of the 18th of January,
4 2002, in the Galic case, on page 1851, in paragraph 25, that one morning
5 you were sitting on the balcony and you heard an explosion. Then you
6 said that that was a barrel that had been full of explosive material and
7 was then pushed downhill, and it ultimately destroyed some houses. You
8 said the same thing on the next page, in paragraph 1, as well. And then
9 you said that there were only civilian targets there and that there were
10 no military targets in sight; is that right?
11 A. Yes, that's what I said. As for military and civilian targets, I
12 said what I said because I saw barrels hitting houses.
13 Q. Did you just come to the conclusion that it was a barrel because
14 you heard the explosion?
15 A. We heard the explosion and we saw the barrels moving down from
16 that rock.
17 Q. One barrel or several barrels?
18 A. Several barrels.
19 Q. You, therefore, think and say that there were no military
20 installations or targets over there.
21 A. I have no knowledge or awareness of that.
22 Q. Now in the hospital, there were no soldiers or military
23 installations or artillery or mortars or anything of that sort; isn't
24 that right?
25 A. Yes, that's right.
1 Q. And Breka didn't have any military units or military
2 installations; isn't that right?
3 A. To the best of my knowledge, no, it didn't.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May we now have a map displayed,
5 please. It is 1D906. May we have it called up on e-court. 1D906 is the
6 document number. And may I ask the Registrar to provide Mrs. Zaimovic
7 with a marker so that she can draw on the map.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Have they provided you with a pen, Mrs. Zaimovic?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Would you now mark in on the map where your building was within
12 the hospital compound.
13 A. Well, you know that the children's surgery ward was to be found
14 at the central entrance to the hospital, which is here. Kosevo Hospital
15 this is the central part, as far as I know. This map is a little
16 different than the one I was looking at just a moment ago, but I think
17 it's somewhere in that general area.
18 Q. Thank you. That is the -- those are the surgical clinics; is
19 that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you. Now do you know what is to be found underneath
22 Stjepan Tomic street? Which faculties are there there?
23 A. The medical faculty is lower down and the electrical engineering
25 Q. Just underneath the street, Stjepan Tomic street. Which faculty
1 buildings are there there?
2 A. The electrical engineering faculty, as far as I know, was located
3 in that area. That was the only one. I don't know of any others. And
4 the faculty of architecture. That was in the same building.
5 Q. Would you mark that on the map for us.
6 A. I'll do my best. I'm not quite sure that I'm getting it right
7 because I'm not a military expert. And I apologise. I worked at the
8 clinic, so I never gave maps and the like any thought.
9 Q. Very well. But we all know that's where the faculty buildings
10 were. Now, if you look at -- in the upper right-hand corner, 901 is the
11 elevation point, you have the hill there. Meta [phoen] hill. Would you
12 mark that in for us.
13 A. I can't see that. I don't know. You mean above Breka?
14 Q. About the -- above the forests, the Sedam Suma forest. The upper
15 right-hand corner where it says Grdonj. 901, elevation 901.
16 A. Is this what you mean?
17 Q. And who here had control of Grdonj, madam?
18 A. I don't know.
19 Q. You don't know that it was the Muslim units who were up at
21 A. No, I don't. I'm not a military expert, as I said.
22 Q. Thank you. Now, could you mark in Betanija? Do you see where it
23 says Betanija in the upper left-hand corner? Is that where the
24 obstetrician ward and maternity ward was?
25 A. Where it says Djecija, yes. Betanija over here.
1 Q. Thank you. Now, could you indicate where you, yourself, lived?
2 A. Breka. I lived right above the hospital, in that general area.
3 Q. The second row of houses; right?
4 A. Yes, the second row of houses and you know that full well. You
5 know where that is.
6 Q. Now do you see the entrance to the tunnel? It says
7 Kosevsko Brdo, Kosevo hill, Kosevsko Brdo. And you can see the tunnel.
8 A. You mean over here, Kosevsko Brdo?
9 Q. No, it's the stadium, but it says Kosevsko Brdo, Gorica, so
10 somewhere in the middle, to the left of the map in the middle.
11 A. I can't see that.
12 Q. It's written up in large letters. Right along the left-hand side
13 of the map.
14 A. It says Jezero and it says Djecija. But why are you asking me all
15 this? Why are you asking me to indicate things on this map? I'm not a
16 military expert. Could you -- Your Honours, I don't want to answer
17 questions like that.
18 JUDGE KWON: Mrs. Zaimovic, he's entitled to ask questions, and
19 he wants the Judges to be familiar with the geography, as we are not
20 familiar with it. So during the course of examination and question and
21 answers, we get familiarised with the maps. I see Kosevsko Brdo in the
22 left part underneath Kosevo.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really can't see it. Kosevo is
24 over here. I can see that. I can't see Kosevsko Brdo.
25 JUDGE KWON: To the left could you see Kosevo there. Do you see
1 Crni Vrh there in the left part?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please. You mean
3 this here. There's Kosevsko Brdo.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Thank you. Now, right above where it says Kosevsko Brdo, do you
6 see the entrance to the tunnel there?
7 A. You mean the red, the area in red?
8 Q. No, within the circle. You've already drawn a circle around
9 Kosevsko Brdo, and you see right above that that's where it is.
10 A. [Marks]
11 Q. Yes. Thank you. That's right.
12 A. And that leads directly to the hospital. There's the bypass
13 passing over the cemetery and leading on towards the hospital.
14 Q. Yes, that's right. Now what about Breka Potok or Breka stream?
15 Where is that? Can you pinpoint that for us, please?
16 A. Is it on the map?
17 Q. No. There's Breka and then --
18 A. Breka Potok moves towards Pionirska street. It's in that general
19 area. Somewhere over here.
20 Q. Thank you. Now, do you know where the institute for the deaf and
21 dumb, deaf and dumb children is, called Nemanja Vlatkovic?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Could you mark that in?
24 A. That's near Breka too, somewhere above the end part of the
25 hospital compound. So somewhere here.
1 Q. Thank you. And do you know where the bakery at Breka is?
2 A. The bakery? I don't know where the bakery is.
3 Q. Very well. Thank you.
4 JUDGE KWON: Madam Zaimovic, if we could put D for the institute
5 for the deaf and dumb in order for us to remember later on.
6 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
7 JUDGE KWON: Let's proceed.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Thank you. Now these two circles where you lived. You lived by
10 the lower circle; right, where it says 201?
11 A. Yes, that's right. Over here. Right up above the hospital.
12 Q. Yes, that's right. Thank you. Now, may I ask you to sign that,
13 put your initials on the map, and I'd like to tender this map into
14 evidence now, please, having recorded that.
15 A. Do you want me to write the date as well?
16 Q. Well, that would be good -- a good idea.
17 A. [Marks]
18 JUDGE KWON: That will be admitted as?
19 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D120, Your Honours.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency. We
21 will probably come back to this map later on, but may we have called up
22 another document now which is 1D905, please.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. And while we're waiting for that, let me tell you what the
25 document is about. It's a document from the General Staff of the
1 BH Army, the command of the 1st Corps, and you know that the 1st Corps
2 was in Sarajevo
3 A. Probably.
4 Q. Here organisational changes are being ordered -- or, rather, the
5 General Staff is ordering organisational changes in the area of
6 responsibility of the 1st Corps.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Ah, we haven't got it on our
8 screens yet. May this document be called up on e-court, please. And may
9 we have both the English and Serbian version on the screen, please, so
10 that Mrs. Zaimovic can see what it's about. So both versions, please.
11 Thank you.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. And on the first page in that first rectangle, we see in the area
14 of responsibility of the 1st Corps formed the following battle units, the
15 command of the 12th Division with the staff units and headquarters in
17 division of 105th Mountain Brigade. There was 105th Motorised Brigade,
18 and now here we have the 105th Mountain Brigade. Have you heard of that?
19 A. Well, perhaps I have, but this has got nothing to do with why I
20 have come in here to this courtroom to testify. I wasn't a military
21 expert. I worked at the clinic all my life and the whole time, and I
22 wasn't interested in military units or their names or numbers or
23 whatever. So I -- my answer is that I have no knowledge of that.
24 Q. Was your son in the army?
25 A. Yes, my son was in the army.
1 Q. In what unit?
2 A. The 105th.
3 Q. And you weren't interested in the 105th Brigade at all?
4 A. He had to go. He was recruited and had to join up and, of
5 course, defend his country.
6 Q. Madam, that is commendable, but how is it possible that you're
7 not interested in the 105th Brigade of which your son was a member?
8 Where was the brigade deployed?
9 A. I really don't know that. I really don't.
10 Q. You don't know that it's area of responsibility was Breka?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Now let's move on to page 3 of this same document, please.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May that be displayed.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. And that rectangle there, the Motorised Brigades of the 1st Corps
16 should be restructured to become mountain brigades as a provisional
17 military formation, number T412.194, and it involves 105th, 102nd, and
18 105th Brigade should become the 105th Mountain Brigade which was your
19 son's brigade; isn't that right?
20 A. Well, most probably, but I really can't say. I don't know. What
21 was important to me was to have my son come back home alive.
22 Q. Certainly, yes.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now may we see the last page of
24 this document. It is army General Rasim Delic who signed the document.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Is that Rasim Delic's signature? Is that what it says there?
2 A. Well, it says Rasim Delic.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd like to tender 1D905 into
5 evidence, please. And may we have 1D902 next.
6 JUDGE KWON: Unless it is objected to, it will be admitted.
7 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I do object to this document. She
8 hasn't been able to speak to any of it. For that reason, I object.
9 JUDGE KWON: Your ground of objection is based upon the relevance
10 or the authenticity?
11 MS. SUTHERLAND: The relevance, Your Honour. And we don't know
12 about the authenticity because she hasn't been able to speak to the
13 document at all. She doesn't recognise the document. She hasn't said
14 that that's Delic's signature. She simply said that the word "Delic" is
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber does not find much relevance of this
18 document as such. You will have another opportunity to tender this
19 document. On that ground this will not be admitted.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I see the relevance with
21 respect to the witness's credibility, first and foremost, and the fact
22 that I want to prove and show that Sarajevo was a fortress and fulcrum, a
23 military stronghold, and not a peaceful town that was attacked by some
24 wild men. And to be quite honest, I'm surprised that this document is
25 not going to be admitted. But let's have 1D902 next, please. Thank you.
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. This is the command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, dated the
3 25th of February, 1995, and it is a report sent by the intelligence
4 services to what it says at the bottom. We see that the
5 102nd Motorised Brigade or Mountain Brigade and the 105th Mountain
6 Brigade is referred to.
7 Now let's move on to page 5, please, of this same document.
8 Madam, do you know where Trampina street is?
9 A. I can't really remember.
10 Q. Do you know where the Ivan Cankar school is?
11 A. I can't remember that either.
12 Q. Do you know where Hladivode is?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Do you know where Kobilja Glava is?
15 A. I know where Kobilja Glava is.
16 Q. Mala Kula?
17 A. What Mala Kula?
18 Q. Well there is just one Mala Kula, and I think that you can see it
19 on that map. It's above Breka where you were. Let's see now what it
20 says in relation to the 105th Brigade. Commander Izet Berkovic, have you
21 heard of him? Do you know of him?
22 A. No.
23 Q. What about Tinjak, Mustafa?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Salko Softic?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Ah-ah. Now, do you see that it says here that the command post
3 is in the Sipad building in Trampina street and the auxiliary command
4 post is in the Ivan Cankar school; isn't that what is written here?
5 A. Mr. Karadzic, I am no military expert. I am asking you very
6 nicely not to ask me about things like this. I spent all the time with
7 the children at the clinic. I have no idea about this. This means
8 nothing to me. You're putting questions to me that I know nothing of.
9 Please don't put military questions to me.
10 Q. Well, see, Ms. Zaimovic, it says here number of men 5.500 to
11 6.000. That's the number of soldiers that are in your neighbourhood and
12 around your neighbourhood with all of the necessary infrastructure,
13 logistics, with a rear command post, and you are saying that there was
14 nothing there and that you don't know anything about it? And your own
15 son is on that unit.
16 A. That's your reports. I have no idea about any of this.
17 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Yes, Ms. Sutherland.
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, can Mr. Karadzic put a question and
19 not comment when he's speaking with the witness.
20 JUDGE KWON: What do you see as comments?
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: What is his question to the witness?
22 JUDGE KWON: Was his question not whether she knows that 5.000 or
23 6.000 number of soldiers were in her neighbourhood?
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I got up in the middle
25 of the question.
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Okay. Let's proceed.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Mrs. Zaimovic, may I read this out to you, the zone of
4 responsibility of this brigade, the 105th Brigade, the brigade that your
5 son was in, Hladivode, Mala Kula, Breka, Potok, Pionirska Dolina, Kobilja
6 Glava, composition five battalions including the rear, and so on and so
7 forth, the number of personnel is between 5.500 to 6.000 men. At
8 Srebrenik, that's where the command post of the 1st Battalion is.
9 Hladivode, Mala Kula is the area. The second one is commanded by
10 Senad Tokaca, and the command is at the institute of seismology, do you
11 know that that institute is there?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And that battalion had about 1.000 men. The 3rd Battalion is
14 commanded by Enver Krljus. The command is in a day care centre at
15 Kosevsko Brdo. The defense area is Breka Potok, Sipska Kosa. The
16 4th Battalion, the commander is a certain Daidza. Manoeuvre Battalion,
17 it only consists of Muslims under the age of 30. Engineer battalion, the
18 command is in Razija Omanovic elementary school. Do you know where that
19 school is?
20 A. I do know, but for heaven's sake, I have no idea about any of
21 this. I have no idea about any of this. You have to realise that I
22 don't know anything about that. You know that. I have no idea.
23 Q. But you see that it is written here that that's where the command
24 posts are, in day care centres, kindergartens, schools, and your son is
25 fighting in that same unit. They are in uniform. They are passing by
1 there, and you do not know anything about this very strong unit
2 consisting of 6.000 men, a brigade, a proper brigade that is guarding
3 your own neighbourhood, and you are trying to say that you don't know
4 anything about that?
5 A. I don't.
6 Q. What's the population of Breka?
7 A. I don't know about that either. I don't know exactly. I don't.
8 Q. Well, I'll tell you. Not more than 2- or 3.000. And the number
9 of soldiers is double in relation to that; isn't that right?
10 A. That's what you're saying. I don't speak about that and I don't
11 know about that.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, I am tendering this
13 document. I believe that it is more than relevant because the place was
14 full of soldiers. It was teeming with soldiers. It is more than
15 relevant, not only in terms of the credibility of this witness but
16 also --
17 JUDGE KWON: No speech, Mr. Karadzic.
18 JUDGE MORRISON: Dr. Karadzic, let's look at it. It falls into
19 two categories. You have information from documents that you can use to
20 base cross-examination on. For instance, you have a document which says,
21 As far as the 105th Motorised Brigade is concerned, in the vicinity we're
22 talking about, there were between 5.500 and 6.000 men. So it's perfectly
23 legitimate for you to ask the witness, Were you aware that in that area
24 of responsibility there were up to 6.000 soldiers. There's no problem
25 with that. It becomes a perfectly legitimate question, but, of course,
1 you are bound by the answer the witness gives. But that doesn't prove
2 the document. Unless this witness was either the author or recipient or
3 otherwise had personal knowledge of the document, it doesn't prove the
4 document. It didn't prevent you from using the context of the document
5 to ask questions in cross-examination, and it doesn't prevent you from
6 proving the document in due course as part of the Defence case. But
7 unless the witness can speak to, identify, or accept the document as
8 genuine, that's a completely separate issue as to the use of the document
9 as a basis for cross-examination. Do you see the distinction?
10 I see that Mr. Robinson does.
11 MR. ROBINSON: I do very much, Judge Morrison, but I'm wondering
12 whether that's not consistent with the practice that we've adopted so far
13 in this trial because --
14 JUDGE KWON: That's the point I'm going to take.
15 Ms. Sutherland, apart from the principles set out by His Honour
16 Judge Morrison, has it not been our practice that as regards the military
17 documents or official documents, has it not been our practice to admit --
18 admit them as far as the authenticity of those were not challenged? Or
19 Mr. Tieger.
20 MS. SUTHERLAND: If you would just give me a moment, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
22 MR. TIEGER: I'd say that's -- I'd have to canvass -- excuse me,
23 Your Honour, canvass all the specific rulings, but I say generally that's
24 probably been the case. I would -- and -- so I understand the Court's
25 point in that respect. I would note that I received an e-mail from
1 Mr. Robinson recently in connection with the proposed submission I had,
2 suggesting an approach to documents that was not consistent with the one
3 he's advancing now. So we're just looking for some consistency.
4 I would note, as I have on previous occasions, that in a
5 circumstance like this, when the witness indicates quite clearly that he
6 or she doesn't know about that particular document, the submission is
7 basically in the form of a bar table or an independent submission. I
8 don't particularly have a problem with that. I think that can indeed
9 advance the relevant information available to the Chamber, but it
10 obviously can't be a one-sided affair or the Court won't have the benefit
11 of the information it needs.
12 So to the extent it's considered a practice, then we'll certainly
13 be doing the same. I don't want to resile from the fact that I have
14 encouraged, on a number of occasions, the Court to receive documents that
15 the particular witness may not have authored or specifically received but
16 about which the provenance is reasonably known and the reliability is
17 reasonably clear. So I certainly don't want the Prosecution to be
18 adopting two different positions, but that would apply equally to the
20 JUDGE KWON: If we are talking about a statement, a witness
21 statement given -- bear with us, Madam Zaimovic. We are having some
22 digression now. If we are dealing with witness statement or paper --
23 newspaper clippings, I see a point. Unless the witness confirms the
24 content or the veracity of the document, we cannot admit those documents.
25 However, in terms of official documents, military documents, if we
1 start -- parties start asking the parties to authenticating such
2 documents, there will be no end to --
3 MR. TIEGER: No. And I'm reminded of the Court's ruling, which I
4 believe was on the last court date or the date before, in which you said
5 precisely that in connection with the tendering of excerpts from larger
6 documents which were official, contemporaneous documents. I see that is,
7 indeed, consistent with the practice that you just asked about, and so I
8 guess to that extent, and I think it's a clear signal from the Court, the
9 answer to your question, Your Honour, is yes, that is the practice the
10 Court seems to have adopted.
11 JUDGE KWON: I'm sorry, Ms. Sutherland. I haven't asked what
12 your position is about this document.
13 MR. TIEGER: Well, again, I think in fairness, since I've just
14 responded to the general question, I'm not going to suggest that this
15 document somehow falls outside the parameters of that response, and I
16 believe that's what the Court was -- why the Court made the inquiry in
17 the first place. So you've heard our response the general proposition
18 that you made in connection with the practice, and I'm not -- not in a
19 position to challenge the provenance of this document. It appears to be
20 an official document.
21 I do want to point out that we are receiving the documents almost
22 as you see them on the screen yourself, and we really don't have -- I
23 mean, some of these may, in fact, be on the Prosecution's 65 ter list.
24 Some of them may be easily -- for some of them the provenance may be
25 easily identified. For others, there may be more questions. It may
1 result in requests for -- that the documents be marked for identification
2 so we can check that because of the rapid timing, but -- so there's a
3 difference between indicating that we're not in a position to know
4 precisely the provenance of a document at the particular moment it's
5 tendered and objecting to the document because we think it's unreliable.
6 JUDGE KWON: So are you minded to reconsider your response given
7 to the previous document?
8 MR. TIEGER: Again, Your Honour, in light of the guidance -- the
9 practice the Court has identified, the guidance it's providing and with
10 the caveat there may be numbers of documents for which we would seek an
11 opportunity to consider the provenance after it's marked for
12 identification, the answer is yes.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, if you could remind me of the 65 ter
15 number of the document we just dealt with. The second one, which is
16 before us now.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 903 -- no, no. 903, the new one.
18 905, actually. No. No. This was 902. 902. The last one was 902, the
19 one that we dealt with. 902. 1D902.
20 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. The Chamber by majority, Judge Morrison
21 dissenting, finds this document relevant in terms of the credibility of
22 the witness and the -- and as far as authenticity is concerned, following
23 the practice of the Tribunal, admits the document, which is 1D902, and
24 reconsider the previous decision regarding 1D905 and admits that document
25 as well.
1 What will be the exhibit numbers?
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 905 will be D121, and 1D902
3 will be Exhibit D122.
4 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Let's proceed.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency. May I
6 have 1D906 called up again, please. And I'd like Mrs. Zaimovic to be
7 provided with a pencil. Thank you.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Now, Mrs. Zaimovic, would you indicate Kosevo stadium, please.
10 We all know where it is.
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. Thank you.
13 A. You set fire to it.
14 Q. Now indicate Bjelave, please.
15 A. [Marks]
16 Q. Thank you. Would you now indicate the Centrotrans settlement?
17 A. I don't know where that is.
18 Q. I think it's between Kosevo and Pionirska street. You remember
19 where the Centrotrans district was?
20 A. I can't remember.
21 Q. Never mind, never mind. Now, could you sign the map and then I'd
22 like to tender it into evidence. And we'll identify the Centrotrans
23 settlement in due course, on another occasion.
24 A. [Marks]
25 Q. Thank you. Now 1D903 is the next document I'd like us to look
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the annotated map will be
4 Exhibit D123.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D903 next, please. 1D903. Thank
6 you. Only the relevant portions have been translated, but we have
7 nothing against the Registrar having it all translated.
8 This is a document dated the 13th of August, 1995, providing
9 intelligence about the enemy in the area of responsibility of the
10 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. May we move on to page 4, please. No, page 5.
11 Page 5 of that same document.
12 The passage that has been highlighted, which has been translated
13 by the way. It says here that the 105th Mountain Brigade has around
14 5.000 soldiers divided into four battalions, of which one is constantly
15 at Niska plateau. The area of responsibility of this brigade is
16 Sijanicka Kosa, Pionirska Dolina, Grdonj, Hladivode. Supporting assets,
17 a battery of 120-millimetre mortars at the Centrotrans neighbourhood, a
18 battery of 82-millimetre mortars at the Kosevo stadium, and two howitzers
19 of 105 millimetres located at Bjelovar. Do you see that?
20 A. Yes, I do. I see that it says that there.
21 Q. Did your son every talk to you about any of that?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I'd like to
25 tender this document as well. That's another passage on the following
1 page but that's not important. Anyway, I'd like to tender this into
2 evidence. Thank you.
3 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Sutherland.
4 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, Your Honour. Since I started taking these.
5 It's not fully translated. That's another reason for the MFI request.
6 It's also extremely difficult to read the B/C/S we have here, which would
7 be another basis for asking that this be MFI'd at the moment, so we can
8 either seek a better copy or make further inquiries.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE KWON: We'll marked it for identification.
11 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. May we have the map
13 again, please.
14 JUDGE KWON: Sorry. If it is convenient, we can have a second
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Excellency.
17 JUDGE KWON: We will have a break for 25 minutes.
18 --- Recess taken at 5.25 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 5.56 p.m.
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Ms. Zaimovic, did you work every day?
24 A. Yes, every day.
25 Q. And how much time did you spend at work?
1 A. Well, it depended. Mostly from morning till evening. Sometimes
2 I had to stay on during the night, too, because the nurses that live far
3 away were not able to come to work because of the shelling.
4 Q. And who was the head nurse before you?
5 A. Before me it was a nun. Her name was Sergeja.
6 Q. And what happened to her?
7 A. She retired.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now, can we have the map displayed
10 again, please, the same map, Your Excellency, so that we don't have to
11 have a new drawing and a new exhibit every time. So D123, the map that
12 we were previously looking at, please.
13 Well, I can tender it into evidence, but then I'll be tendering a
14 new map with the new markings. Thank you.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Now, Mrs. Zaimovic, do you have a pencil? And if you do, could
17 you mark in the area of Ciglane.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Thank you. And now could you draw a circle around the blue
20 skyscraper, "plavi solitar" [phoen].
21 A. Which blue skyscraper?
22 Q. Well, everybody from Sarajevo
23 skyscraper. By the cemetery and the tunnel leading to the hospital. You
24 know where the blue skyscraper was.
25 A. You mean the two blue skyscrapers opposite the hospital?
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. Right. The two blue skyscrapers opposite the hospital. Is that
3 what you mean?
4 Q. Yes, yes. That's right.
5 A. Well, they're somewhere in this area here. Thereabouts.
6 Q. No, that's Breka. But underneath the faculty building. You
7 remember the blue skyscraper with the cafe and everything. Right
8 opposite the cemetery and by the faculty building. Do you remember?
9 A. Well, I do vaguely remember, but I can't remember well enough to
10 mark it in here. And it's not important, after all. I can't find it.
11 Q. All right.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now, may we have document 1D920.
13 It hasn't been translated. Yes. Can we have this recorded.
14 JUDGE MORRISON: Dr. Karadzic, do you have the large bundle of
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I haven't taken the binder with me,
17 but I know that it does exist, the bundle.
18 JUDGE MORRISON: It's just that I see on one of the photographs a
19 blue skyscraper, and I'm just wondering if that's the one you're
20 referring to. It's on the photograph that looks like that.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Excellency, that's it.
22 That's right.
23 JUDGE KWON: Would you like to tender this map marked separately
24 from the previous one? Yes. Can we save it separately --
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be Exhibit D125.
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Let's proceed.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Now, may we have 1D920,
3 920. It hasn't been translated yet, that is, but I'm just going to read
4 two or three lines from it.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. And while we're waiting, madam, have you heard had of
7 Juka Prazina?
8 A. Yes, I have.
9 Q. Do you know that he became a general in the war?
10 A. No, I don't know that.
11 Q. Do you know that he was a well-known criminal prior to that?
12 A. I don't know that either. I really don't.
13 Q. And who was Juka Prazina?
14 A. Well, I heard that he had taken part in the defence of the town.
15 Q. When he was wounded just prior to the war, was he treated at
16 Kosevo Hospital
17 A. I don't know. He was an adult patient, and adult patients didn't
18 come to our children's ward, children's clinic.
19 Q. Thank you. I'd like you to focus on paragraphs 4 and 5 of this
20 document. It says:
21 "Juka Prazina's headquarters is located in Ciglane, at the
22 intersection towards the hospital in the blue high-rise building. They
23 interrogate prisoner in the theatre building in the city centre."
24 Did you know that Juka Prazina had his headquarters so near to
25 the hospital?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd like to tender 1D920, please,
4 and we will be providing -- oh, I see. It has been translated. I didn't
6 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Sutherland.
7 MS. SUTHERLAND: No objection, Your Honour, although I would note
8 that the stamp hasn't been translated. It's not a full translation,
9 but -- so it can either be MFI
10 or it can be --
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Mark for identification pending translation.
12 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI
13 JUDGE KWON: So I note that this is a draft translation by the
14 Defence teams. So we will wait for the official translation.
15 Let's proceed.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. May I have 1D921 next,
17 please, 921. Yes, the document is on our screens. I am not sure whether
18 it's been translated yet. I don't think so. It says Ministry of the
19 Interior, National Security Service, Republika Srpska, the War Department
20 of Ilidza. Now, may we have page 2 of the document.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Madam, did you know that most of the fighting in Sarajevo was
23 started by the BH Army? Almost all the battles were started by the
24 BH Army. Did you know that?
25 A. No. All I know is that you shot from up on the hill and that you
1 targeted the town.
2 Q. All right. We'll come to that. But you didn't know, you say,
3 that all the offensives that were launched in Sarajevo were launched by
4 the BH Army. Is that what you said?
5 A. Yes, that's right. I didn't know.
6 Q. How is that possible when it was on television, the information
7 was broadcast over television? The people were told what positions they
8 had taken control of and where they broke through, and so on.
9 A. Mr. Karadzic, I was at the clinic. There was no electricity or
10 water. The children were wounded. We didn't know where to turn first,
11 we had so much work to do. We worked from morning to night. And when I
12 went home, I was so tired and I didn't even have any food to cook for the
13 children. My life during the war was very difficult, and I don't know
14 about anything of the things you're asking me about, and I'm not
15 interested in them. I have to be quite sincere there. You're asking me
16 about military matters, something that you should ask military experts
17 and not me. I have come here to testify about the difficulties that the
18 children were facing, children who were wounded and who were killed,
19 whose parents were crying, whose lives were disrupted and were targeted
20 like pigeons in town. Of that's what I want to say. Do you have any
21 conscience? Do you have a conscience, because you destroyed the Muslim
22 children and the Croatian children and the Serbian children. That's what
23 you did. You destroyed them all. That's what I've come here to talk
24 about and not to speak about military strategy that I know nothing
25 whatsoever about.
1 Q. Thank you, madam, but as soon as you say that somebody shot, you
2 provide the basis for me to ask you why and how. As soon as you're
3 saying that Breka was shelled, I had to put it to you that your son was a
4 member of the 105th Brigade which numbered 6.000 men and that the whole
5 place was teeming with soldiers, that there were more soldiers than the
6 inhabitants of Breka.
7 A. Leave my son alone. That's not true and leave my son alone. I'm
8 not talking about your children. I don't want us to talk about our
9 children. We're discussing something quite different here.
10 Q. Madam, I have every respect for your husband who was a friend of
11 mine and your child, and it was his duty to --
12 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic. Mr. Karadzic.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.
14 JUDGE KWON: Come to your questions. You haven't cross-examined
15 yet the evidence which was given by this witness. Let's move on to your
16 real topic, please.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. We'll come back to this document. 1D946 is the next one I'd like
20 us to look at. It has been translated, so may we have both versions, the
21 Serbian and English on our screens. Can we have a split screen, please?
22 Thank you.
23 It says, "Military secret, highly confidential." The date is the
24 28th of July, 1993, an interim combat report for the 28th of July, 1993
25 It says:
1 "Today the enemy has violated the cease-fire to the Serb side.
2 His firing positions, mortar located in the Kosevo Hospital
3 They fired 20, 82-millimetre mines on the Jagomir ground and
4 Ernest Grin."
5 Do you know where those are?
6 A. Of course, I do.
7 Q. "The mines were falling in the region of Promolj, and the head of
8 the hospital, Cukovic, Miladin, was killed as a result and a nurse
9 wounded. The snipers are constantly active and a soldier from the
10 Rajlovac Barracks was killed by sniper fire. Engineering works are still
11 underway, and PANs and PATs are being used and pound the lines of the
12 division with the Ilijas Brigade."
13 So within the hospital compound, you had several mortars,
14 82-millimetre ones, and 20 mines, and you say you know nothing about
16 A. Probably that's not -- that's not true, and I really don't know
17 anything about it.
18 Q. Well, this is a secret document, highly confidential.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It wasn't intended for any
20 propaganda purposes, but I'd like to tender the document into evidence
21 now, please.
22 JUDGE KWON: While we have admitted so far such documents, I --
23 I'm wondering what's the -- what's the point of your tendering all these
24 documents with the witness. Are you not minded to call a witness who can
25 speak about these documents?
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Your Excellency, the witness
2 provided me with the basis for me asking the questions, but also it is my
3 duty to do so because she put -- she said here that somebody savagely
4 shot at Kosevo Hospital
5 Kosevo Hospital
6 as it is to Mrs. Zaimovic, but I have to demonstrate here the factual
7 situation, what the facts were. In that hospital compound there were
8 tanks and artillery pieces and brigades. There were criminals named --
9 one of them was named Kinez, the Chinaman because he was a very powerful
10 man in that hospital. So the hospital was everything but a hospital.
11 Quite simply, there was a lot of armed force there. They abused the
12 traumatology ward and the entire compound, the faculty. They shot there.
13 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, you can put as many questions as you
14 wish to the witness, and you are entitled to put your case, but you are
15 bound by the answer given by the witness. So you do not have to put
16 every point to the witness, and then there's no need to deal with all of
17 these documents. You can deal with it to test the credibility, one or
18 two or several points of such nature, and then you can proceed. Putting
19 every point to the witness, in the Chamber's view, is a waste of time.
20 Ms. Sutherland, what do you -- would you say to this document?
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: No objection, Your Honour, although I note that
22 the stamp hasn't been translated, but apart from that it has.
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes. In the same line, it will be marked for
24 identification pending translation as 1D127.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be MFI D127.
1 JUDGE KWON: Let's proceed, Mr. Karadzic.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Mrs. Zaimovic, I'm going to put my case to you and make an
4 assertion, and I'd like to see your answer. The Kosevo Hospital
5 torture place for the Serbs; yes or no?
6 A. No.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May we have 1D947 next, please.
8 And while we're waiting, did you know Mr. Vladimir Kojovic.
9 A. No.
10 Q. On the basis of this document -- well, this part here where it
12 "We have also learned that Dr. --"
13 Actually, the previous one in Serbian.
14 "We also found out that Dr. Vladimir Kojovic, who works in the
15 Kosevo Hospital
16 Nedeljka Simic, a doctor of the same hospital helped the Serbs and
17 shielded them --"
18 JUDGE KWON: Just a minute. Yes, Ms. Sutherland.
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: [Overlapping speakers] translation doesn't
20 correspond with the B/C/S document. The B/C/S document is dated the
21 28th of July and the English translation is 18th of June, 1994, and the
22 other one is 1993 in July.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The Serbian version was not placed
24 there, 947. This is the old Serbian document -- the old document, I
1 JUDGE KWON: Can you try 1D947.
2 I was advise this is the correct document, so shall we proceed in
3 the absence of the English translation for the moment?
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No. This is the previous document.
5 This is 946. Let's have a look now. Yes. This is 946. We are actually
6 asking for 947 to be called up. We can also have it placed on the ELMO,
7 the Serbian version. The mistake is in e-court obviously.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. So the reference here is to a Serb who is mistreating Serbs at
10 the Kosevo Hospital
11 them shelter. Have you heard of that doctor Nedeljka Simic?
12 A. No.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Ms. Sutherland, please.
14 JUDGE KWON: Microphone.
15 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry, Your Honour. The document on the
16 left and the right of the screen are exactly the same, and it's -- it's
17 document 1D946 and 1D947. It's the same document. So we don't have even
18 the B/C/S of the document that Mr. Karadzic is reading from.
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes. There seems to be a mistake on the -- on the
20 Defence part. Let's proceed. Let's move on to another topic.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. We'll deal with it
22 tomorrow perhaps. Then could I have document 949, please. At least the
23 relevant portions have been translated. So we have the document now.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. The date is the 8th of May, 1995. The Muslim intentions in the
1 area of Sarajevo
2 information again. That:
3 "The MUP of Republika Srpska, RDB, through operative activities
4 has received information that plans for attacks at Sarajevo have been
5 prepared and finalised. Four brigades have been brought to Sarajevo
6 three more expected from the area of Zenica. The attack is supposed to
7 occur in several directions simultaneously."
8 I apologise. I have to read this more slowly.
9 "The attack should begin from the city," et cetera.
10 Mrs. Zaimovic, do you know that in the summer of 1995, the Muslim
11 army had started a large-scale offensive from the city and from
12 Central Bosnia
13 A. Believe me, I don't know. I don't know anything about any of
15 Q. Let us move on to paragraph 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. 5:
16 "An 82-millimetre battery is located in the new maternity
17 building, and they are occasionally taken out the main side entrance
18 towards the stadium. Two mountain cannons, B1, are located on the
19 premises of the Kosevo Hospital
21 Do you know that there were two mountain cannons in -- on the
22 premises of the Kosevo Hospital
23 A. No.
24 Q. But they were firing. Did you hear the explosions?
25 A. No. In my opinion, that was certainly not the case. These are
1 your reports. I have no idea.
2 Q. Let us move on to the next paragraph and then the last sentence
3 in that next paragraph.
4 "The sniper nest is above the school for deaf mutes."
5 Nemanja Vlatkovic was the name of the school, wasn't it?
6 A. I don't know about that. That's what you're saying.
7 Q. Could we move on to the next page, please. The second paragraph
8 on the next page:
9 "The command of the 2nd SMB is at the faculty of civilian
10 engineering and headquarters is at the institute of geology in the
11 building of the hygiene institute. The civil engineering faculty is
12 right next to the hospital."
13 You did you mark it; right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Are you saying that this did not actually happen?
16 A. What is it that you think? What is it that I'm claiming? I
17 didn't understand your question.
18 Q. Is it your assertion that these military installations were not
19 in the localities specified in this document?
20 A. Do you understand what I'm saying to you, that about these
21 military things that you're talking about in the city, I have no idea
22 about that. You keep putting these questions to me, and I have no idea
23 about any of that that you're asking me about. Do you understand that I
24 don't know anything about this? I wasn't interested in it at all. I was
25 doing completely different things.
1 Q. Mrs. Zaimovic, you said several times here that Serbs were firing
2 at the city. So now we have to see whether they were firing at
3 legitimate targets or whether they were randomly shooting all over town.
4 Do you agree that there is a difference, if there is a cannon, a
5 howitzer, a mortar at Biljevina, doesn't that make a difference? Does it
6 make the situation different if there was not a mortar battery there or
7 howitzers or whatever?
8 A. Mr. Karadzic, you know full well what you did. You know that you
9 surrounded Sarajevo
10 You killed people whenever you wanted to. People had to get organised
11 and defend themselves. But I don't know about these military targets at
12 all. I don't know about this kind of thing at all. You have to
13 understand that.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could this document please be
17 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Sutherland.
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: No objection, Your Honour, but again the stamp
19 hasn't been translated.
20 JUDGE KWON: If I can get the confirmation from the Court Officer
21 that this -- this -- these kind of documents will be translated
22 officially by the CLSS.
23 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
24 JUDGE KWON: They will be marked for identification pending
1 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI
2 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, having followed the evidence of
3 Mrs. Zaimovic so far, I don't think there's a point of you continuing to
4 put those documents relating to the locations of ABiH, et cetera. You
5 can put your case, and then you have another opportunity to prove what
6 you put to the witness, but given the position of the witness that she
7 does not know anything about military location or the attack from the
8 BiH Army, I don't think it's -- it will help your case at this moment.
9 So I -- I tell you to move on your different topic.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, we are getting
11 closer and closer to the hospital. As for the rest of today and
12 tomorrow, we are going to be dealing with what it was that happened in
13 that hospital that Mrs. Zaimovic portrayed as an innocent target. We are
14 going to prove that that was not the case at all, and you will see that
15 the situation was quite different to what Mrs. Zaimovic has been saying.
16 JUDGE KWON: As I tell you, Mr. Karadzic, put your case and then
17 move on to another topic. You don't have to deal with all these
18 documents with this witness. You will have another opportunity.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D950, please.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Mrs. Zaimovic, what about the salaries of Serbs and Muslims in
22 Kosevo Hospital
23 A. We didn't have any salaries at all at the beginning of the war.
24 The salaries had always been the same, whenever we received them, that
25 is. There was no difference whatsoever.
1 Q. We'll deal with that later. Thank you.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have the third paragraph
3 in this document.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. According to the information we have received, there is a very
6 small number of people of Serb ethnicity admitted to the Kosevo Hospital
7 those being the ones whose bare lives to be rescued by doctors'
8 interventions only. After the first signs of recovery, executioners
9 enter the rooms. They beat the Serb patients, returning them to a
10 devastating situation. In relation to that, the source states that a
11 certain Mirza employed as a security guard in the hospital, as well as
12 Senada, a nurse, and a medical technician, Almir, are the people who
13 terrorise the Serbs in the Kosevo Hospital
14 On the 31th of December, 1992, the three of them placed all Serbs
15 who were on the ward in one room, in which, on the morning of the 1st of
16 January, 1993, a group of soldiers of the so-called BiH Army barged into
17 the room beating the patients mercilessly and torturing them for two or
18 three hours. A certain Marinkovic had died from the beating.
19 Are you saying that this did not happen?
20 A. I don't know about this, but I assert that no such thing every
21 happened at the hospital. Everybody was treated the same way, really and
22 truly. These are pure fabrications.
23 Q. Do you know these persons whose names were mentioned?
24 A. No.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this
1 document, Your Excellencies. All of these reports are strictly
2 confidential or were strictly confidential when they were created.
3 JUDGE KWON: Same position, Ms. Sutherland?
4 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE KWON: They will be marked for identification pending
7 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could I have 1D951,
9 please. 1D951. It is possible that there is no translation yet.
10 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, I think you didn't understand me in
11 full. I just asked you to put all of your case to the witness and move
12 on to other topics instead of showing all the documents about which the
13 witness has no knowledge at all. There's no point of continuing such
14 practice. Put all the case. And having received the answer, you proceed
15 to ask other topics.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, but this is an
17 opportunity, because it has to do with the hospital.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Madam, let me put it this way: Do you know that gunpowder was
20 smuggled in the oxygen bottles that were sent to you in the hospital?
21 A. I don't know. How could I know that kind of thing?
22 Q. Well, that was rather well known. It was written about in the
24 A. I have not read about that, and I have no way of knowing about
25 that really.
1 Q. Thank you. Now I would like to move on to another topic, namely
2 what happened to your colleagues in the Kosevo Hospital
3 to ask -- actually, 951 is a document I wanted to tender as well. It is
4 another secret report at the time when the smuggling was uncovered.
5 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, apart from the principle we've taken
6 as regards the admissibility of documents, given our -- given my
7 instruction to move on to another topic without relying on such
8 documents, the Chamber will not admit this document. Let's proceed.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].
11 Q. Mrs. Zaimovic, in your statement of the 9th of April, 2000
12 say on page 00938863, paragraph 4, that Serb and Croat doctors stayed on,
13 for the most part, but that then, slowly, they started leaving one by
14 one. Is that the way you had put it?
15 A. Yes. At first the doctors were there with us for the most part,
16 and as time went by, Serbs and Croats were leaving us and ultimately some
17 Muslims as well whose families had left town. Masses of people had left
18 town because they were afraid for their lives. So out of a total of 14
19 doctors, we ultimately had only two, one Muslim and one Croat.
20 Q. Thank you. Are you trying to say that they were leaving because
21 they felt good and safe and that they went to the Serb side and gave us
22 statements as to what happened to them in Kosevo Hospital
23 going to accept that they were threatened there, primarily Serbs and Jews
24 and Croats, and that they fled to our side and then gave statements to
1 A. In Sarajevo
2 Kosevo Hospital
3 the very last bits of food that we had. Ethnic Serbs were the first to
4 leave our clinic, then Croats with their families as the war became more
5 and more intensive. They all had young children, et cetera, and finally
6 Muslim doctors left. I repeat: We only had two doctors left who taught
7 young doctors how they could work and help as well. You can imagine what
8 it was like for us to operate in that situation with so few doctors
9 around. You know full well what was going on.
10 Q. Are you trying to say, Mrs. Zaimovic, that a doctor who tries to
11 leave town without permission was not punished and was not sentenced to a
12 prison term of half a year, at least?
13 A. What do you mean prison sentence. You are a doctor and you
14 killed patients. You took the oath and you did horrible things. What do
15 you know? You should read up on this. Doctors who left went to save
16 their lives. Some went to your side, and others went just to save
17 themselves and their families, like all citizens of Sarajevo. Sarajevo
18 was a city under siege, terrible siege. So many days and so many shells
19 fell. Everybody was in fear for their families and themselves. It was
20 very hard to live in town, and you know that full well. You are taunting
21 me with all these questions, but go on. I can take it.
22 JUDGE KWON: Mrs. Zaimovic, I understand how you feel, and you
23 are very -- you are in a very difficult situation, but please try to
24 answer the question. By that way you are assisting the Chamber. You are
25 not answering to Mr. Karadzic but to the Chamber.
1 Let's proceed.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I apologise, Your Excellency.
3 JUDGE KWON: No, you don't have to apologise. Let's proceed.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me whether you knew Dr. Kemal Drndo.
6 A. Yes. He was an excellent surgeon.
7 Q. And an excellent man, too.
8 A. Yes, an excellent man and excellent surgeon.
9 Q. And he was professor to me and to your husband. Now, can you
10 tell me why he was replaced?
11 A. He wasn't replaced at all.
12 Q. And what post was he when the end of the war came?
13 A. He was the principal surgeon of the emergency ward.
14 Q. But wasn't he a director before that?
15 A. He was the principle surgeon at the emergency ward.
16 Q. And what was he at the beginning of the war?
17 A. He was the head of thoracic surgery.
18 Q. Did you know Professor Najdanovic, who was also at the thoracic
19 surgery ward?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you know what happened to him?
22 A. No, I don't.
23 Q. Mrs. Zaimovic, I have to doubt that, because it's common
24 knowledge what happened to him. So I can't believe it when you say you
25 don't know what happened to him.
1 A. I don't know what happened to him. All I know is that he was
2 killed. That's all I know, but I don't know what actually happened to
4 Q. Do you know that there are photographs of him stark naked and
5 circumcised and being led through your hospital compound and then they
6 killed him and threw him into a rubbish dump, into a container? Do you
7 know that?
8 A. No, I don't. I really don't.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I have 1D911, next, please.
10 1D911 is the number of the next document I'd like called up on e-court,
11 please. We have the Serbian version there. The date is the 17th of
12 October, 1992.
13 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, does that document contain the
14 contents that you just put to the witness? That being the case,
15 recommend you to move on to your next topic. I said to you to put all
16 the cases without having to rely on the documents. Let's proceed.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Your Excellency, then I have
18 to change my approach, and I cannot accept having the witness avoid
19 matters that were so drastic that the whole of Sarajevo knew about them.
20 I just can't believe that the witness is being sincere. It's -- it's a
21 matter of confirming facts that everybody in town knew about.
22 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, as I told you, you can put all your
23 case to the witness, and even you can ask whether -- to the witness
24 whether she's lying or not, and then you'll have another opportunity to
25 tender and prove the facts as you wish.
1 As Judge Morrison told you, you should be bound by what the
2 witness said in relation to her evidence.
3 Let's proceed.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Her testimony contains
5 a lot of allegations about Serb conduct.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Now, madam, you said that you knew Dr. Starovic. Do you know
8 that on the 6th of April, at the very beginning of the war, when he was
9 getting into his car, a neighbour of his who was an underage person shot
10 at him with the intention of killing him?
11 A. I really don't know that. I know that Dr. Starovic fell ill, and
12 because of his illness he left town.
13 Q. Thank you. Now, do you know who Bane Surbat, a national hero is?
14 A. Well, I have heard the name, yes.
15 Q. Did you know his brother, Dr. Gojko Surbat?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Everybody living in Sarajevo
18 killed in front of his own house?
19 A. I really don't know that, no.
20 Q. And what about Dr. Vladimir Belenki, have you heard of him? He
21 was a doctor at the ear, nose, and mouth department.
22 A. I have heard of Dr. Vladimir Belenki from that department, but I
23 don't know what happened to him.
24 Q. He was killed too. Now, have you heard of Dr. Zarko Mijatovic,
25 who worked in the maternity ward and helped all the women of Sarajevo
1 give birth?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And do you know that he was wounded through a firearm?
4 A. Well, do you know how many other doctors and nurses were wounded
5 and injured in Sarajevo
6 Q. I'm asking about a man who was wounded by the Green Berets with
7 the intention of killing him.
8 A. No, I don't know that he was wounded and injured. I really
10 Q. Did you know Dr. Mihajlo Vujovic.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you know that he was stabbed in the stomach a number of times
13 and hanged at his own threshold with the intention of making it look like
14 a suicide?
15 A. I really don't know, and I think that that is something that
16 should be proved. I have -- I don't know anything about that.
17 Q. Do you know Dr. Bajko Hogic [phoen]?
18 A. Of course I do.
19 Q. Do you know that the doctors who returned to work after those
20 first clashes and conflicts, that he would say to them at meetings, What
21 are you doing here, and how dare you address me, and that's how he sent
22 doctors packing?
23 A. I don't know that, but I know that he was an excellent boss and
24 an excellent neuro surgeon. And he did very hard work in the clinical
25 centre when he lost a lot of doctors and he had to work overtime.
1 Certainly he would be angry with people from time to time, but he was a
2 real doctor, a real humanist, and, out of respect, everybody should get
3 up when he comes into a room.
4 Q. And do you know when they offered him to become part of a peace
5 mission he said, What peace mission? We've been waiting for this from
6 1804, which was the first Serbian -- the date of the first Serbian
8 A. No. I know nothing about that.
9 Q. Do you mean to say, Mrs. Zaimovic, that Dr. Dejan Kafka, from a
10 Serbian Jewish marriage, a fateful marriage, and Dr. Marko Vukovic,
11 Dr. Sabljak and Dr. Medenica and Veljko Nemanja, did not get a six-month
12 sentence when they tried to leave?
13 A. Let me tell you about Dejan Kafka. He was a doctor working at my
14 clinic. He was married to a wonderful woman. His wife was really a
15 wonderful woman. I don't know what ethnicity she was. But during the
16 war, a son was born to him and we would all take presents to him, to help
17 him out, clothing and firewood, and so on. And at one point, he felt
18 that he could no longer remain at the clinic. He had to leave. He
19 collected up his belongings because his wife had gone to Belgrade before
20 him and he escaped through the tunnel. Now, what happened to him after
21 that I don't know, but he worked at our clinic for a long time because
22 his father was the first head of the surgical ward, Professor
23 Dr. Ivan Kafka, who was an exceptional surgeon and with whom I worked for
24 many years.
25 Q. Thank you. Dr. Kafka, yes, his father was very well known and
1 his mother was a Serb woman and his father was a Jew. But all the ones
2 that I listed we see were given six-month prison sentences because they
3 attempted to leave town?
4 A. Well, that's a matter of politics, but that man really did work
5 for quite a long time at our clinic, and he's still alive working in
7 son, we tried to help them out as best we could, taking them clothes and
8 food and firewood, and so on. We never distinguished between anyone.
9 Q. Now, do you know that Enko Rustempasic was never forgiven - he
10 was a Muslim doctor and his wife, Sonja Sorajic, a good
11 anaesthesiologist, perhaps the best - for having contracted a mixed
12 marriage, ethnically speaking, and when Sonja addressed the authorities
13 for help, they wouldn't, and they said that they had to leave Sarajevo
14 A. I think all that is pure invention, and that's the kind of rumour
15 that was put about and led people to hate each other. That's what you
16 keep doing all the time. You want to intensify hatred among people by
17 putting out rumours of that kind.
18 Q. Well, in due course, we'll provide evidence about that.
19 Now, do you know about this man Kinez, who was the head of
20 security at the hospital?
21 A. Well, I have heard of him, but I never met him.
22 Q. But what was he, the head of what?
23 A. I don't know what he was at all, but I did hear his name
24 mentioned, but I, myself, never met him, nor do I know him at all. Nor
25 do I know that he was at the hospital either. Absolutely not.
1 Q. Very well. We'll ask the Trial Chamber to show the statements of
2 these people that you say I'm making them all up.
3 Now, from the traumatology department were mortars fired around
4 Serb positions?
5 A. I'm sure that's not true, and I don't know about any of that.
6 Q. But you say you know that it's not true.
7 A. It's certainly not true, but I don't know. I'm sure people would
8 have seen that, but I think that you're making it all up, big time.
9 Q. Now, we both knew Dr. Milica Lopandic?
10 A. Yes, we did, and I liked her very much.
11 Q. She was Sreten Lopandic's wife; right?
12 A. Yes, she was.
13 Q. And they had a rather large apartment, very nice one?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And what happened to Dr. Milica Lopandic?
16 A. Does the Trial Chamber really want me to say what happened?
17 Q. I say that she was thrown out of the window because other people
18 coveted her apartment?
19 A. You are lying. She wasn't thrown out. She was at our clinic all
20 the time. We helped her. We brought her food. We visited her husband
21 and all the rest of it. But because of the shelling, and she was
22 terribly afraid of the shelling, she would frequently come to our
23 basement where we would take refuge with our children, and she spent a
24 lot of time there because she was very afraid of the shelling. And one
25 day we heard that she had committed suicide jumping out of the window.
1 Now, about this coveting of her apartment and seizing her
2 apartment, that's just not true, but that can be investigated to see who
3 actually did take her apartment. But Dr. Milica Lopandic merited every
4 respect, but she suffered a nervous breakdown because of the tireless and
5 ceaseless shelling in Sarajevo
6 Q. And when did Mrs. Lopandic die?
7 A. I don't know the exact date. I don't know when she died, but we
8 buried her, gave her a nice funeral. We waited for her daughter to
9 arrive from America
10 centre paid for the funeral. Professor Kolihagic [phoen] and Professor
11 Dizdarevic, we all attended the funeral, regardless of the fact that
12 there was shelling going on all the time. We all attended her funeral.
13 And I think you're telling it a lot of lies, and I find it horrific to
14 have to listen to everything you're telling me.
15 Q. Well, I find it horrific too. I'm not saying that you threw her
16 out of the window.
17 A. Well, nobody threw her out of the window, and that's quite
19 Q. We're going to show what your big-time journalists write about
20 this custom of throwing people out of windows. We'll come to that
22 Do you maintain that people weren't thrown out of the window in
23 order to kill them? And a Serbian poet said he didn't jump, they jumped
25 A. That's what you say, sir. I know nothing about that.
1 Q. Do you say that the Sabotage Company of the 105th Brigade did not
2 have a post at the bakery?
3 A. Well, please believe me when I say that I don't know where this
4 bakery was.
5 Q. Do you know where Juval Nitrak street was?
6 A. No.
7 Q. I'd like to go back to a document now -- well, actually, we
8 haven't called it up yet. But anyway, let's see what the reports were
9 like about the situation in Kosevo Hospital
10 And that, I think, is 948, document 948.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May we have 948 called up on
12 e-court, please. I think there's a translation as well.
13 JUDGE KWON: While we are waiting for the translation,
14 Mr. Karadzic -- I was told that there's none. You will have spent, by
15 the end of today for your cross-examination, about two hours. Originally
16 you indicated -- you projected your cross-examination to be four hours,
17 and then later on you requested further -- more two hours. I'm speaking
18 for myself, but I think you could conclude what you put today to the
19 witness in less than half an hour or even 15 minutes. So discuss the way
20 how to cross-examine with your legal advisor, and we expect you to
21 conclude your cross-examination by the first session tomorrow.
22 We have five more minutes. Let's proceed.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I don't think that will
24 be sufficient, but in view of the allegations made by the witness, by the
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. But let's focus on paragraph 3. This is a strictly confidential
3 secret document. It says:
4 "The Kosevo Hospital in Sarajevo is well supplied with medicines,
5 medical material, and sufficient quantities of blood. About 7.000 meals
6 are served and prepared each day for the duty staff of which there are
7 1.200 and for about 1.500 patients. The meals are mostly made up the
8 rice, beans, and macaroni. And in every fourth building of this
9 institution, there's a separate place for worship, something like a
10 mosque. The hospital is regularly supplied with gas, electricity, and
11 water, and it also has gas-powered generators should the electricity
12 supply be cut. The generators are maintained by UN members."
13 What do you have to say to this report?
14 A. What I can say is at the beginning of the war, when you cut off
15 our electricity and water supply, the situation in the hospital was
16 extremely difficult. We had no water and no electricity, and electricity
17 was the main problem. Well, so was the water, and all the sheets that we
18 used were destroyed because we had to use some very strong disinfectants,
19 since we couldn't wash and launder clothes properly. So a lot of what it
20 says here is not true. There was food, but of very poor nutritional
22 We appealed to the citizens to bring in food to the children and
23 pyjamas, sheets, and so on. That didn't happen until the physicians of
24 the world turned up and UNICEF, and they helped us a lot to have the
25 minimum supplies of food and medicines and sheets and everything else we
1 needed in the hospital, but our situation was very difficult. We just
2 had small weak lamps until the physicians of the world came in and
3 brought in better equipment, together with UNPROFOR, to provide what the
4 generators needed so that the operating theatres could function.
5 So you're not being honest and sincere, Mr. Karadzic, to put out
6 untruths like that to the -- you destroyed the city that provided you
7 with your education and your life. Why don't you repent and tell the
8 truth before this Trial Chamber? You destroyed thousands of people and
9 lives. Your people, our people, our ethnicities, you destroyed everyone.
10 And it's not fair of you. What you're saying now, you're not being fair.
11 You're speaking and uttering terrible untruths. I apologise for my
12 emotions, but this is something that I feel strongly about and that
13 affects me deeply.
14 Q. Madam, I am reading reports put out by intelligence services.
15 A. What intelligence services? You had spies everywhere. They were
16 your intelligence services. What you did to us is terrible. You
17 destroyed thousands of lives and people. So repent. Say it, I did that
18 with my army. I did those things. But you don't want to do that. You
19 don't want to say that. And you did do that. That's what you did. You
20 killed innocent people.
21 Q. Madam -- the Islamic Declaration?
22 A. Let's leave that aside.
23 Q. You know who was guilty, guilty. It was the writers of the
24 Islamic Declaration. Those are the culprits. They were the culprits, as
25 far as you were concerned, and as far as I was concerned.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And I'd like to tender this
3 JUDGE KWON: As I told you, we will not admit this document.
4 Bear in mind, we will give you the first session tomorrow.
5 We will rise for today.
6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.
7 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 6th day
8 of May, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.