1 Thursday, 20 May 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Good afternoon, everybody.
7 Mr. Karadzic, please continue your cross-examination.
8 THE ACCUSED: Thank you. Good afternoon to everybody.
9 Please, may I --
10 WITNESS: AERNOUT VAN LYNDEN [Resumed]
11 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] May I please have 1D01231 up on
13 the screens.
14 It appears that this has not been entered into e-court yet, so I
15 would appreciate it if the usher could provide the witness with a hard
16 copy of this document.
17 Q. Well, apparently we do have the original in e-court, but not the
18 translation, so I will read slowly, Mr. van Lynden.
19 We see that this document is of 8th June, 1992, and let me just
20 remind you that on the 1st of June, 1992, the cease-fire was signed, the
21 one that was renewed and put in force on the 14th of June.
22 The Command of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps, strictly
23 confidential, so this command is reporting to the Main Staff of the Army
24 of Bosnia and Herzegovina, as it was called at the time.
25 Item 1:
1 "During the day, the enemy launched offensive actions from the
2 city towards the suburbs. The artillery fire targeted Kobilja Glava Zuc,
3 Boljakov Potok Zuc, and Han Zuc. He managed to capture the S-1 access
4 from Rajlovac, Prijesko [phoen] Brdo, Smiljevici, Ugljesici [phoen]," and
5 so on and so forth.
6 And then it says:
7 "The artillery fire targeted Vrace, Vojkovici, Nedjarici, Ilidza,
8 Rajlovac, and the Military Post KAG. We're expecting a strong attack on
9 the airport during the night."
10 And then under number 3, it says:
11 "A large number of houses have been destroyed in the area of
12 Vrace. In the course of the day, we had 8 dead, 62 injured, 2 damaged
13 tanks, and 5 transporters."
14 Is this, in fact, similar or rather similar to the report
15 provided by Sefer Halilovic to his Presidency on Serbian losses? This is
16 of the 8th, and the other one was of the 18th. Do you agree that this is
17 something that had to be actually noted, and the international public
18 opinion had to be informed as to who was opening fire and who the victims
20 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, I have a question, in light of what I
21 experienced here yesterday.
22 I'm not a lawyer, but as far as I'm aware, if the Prosecution
23 has -- is going to tender a document, it has to shown those documents to
24 the Defence beforehand. If the Defence is going to put forward a
25 document, the Prosecution has to see it beforehand. But I have not seen
1 any of these documents, and surely a witness has certain rights as well.
2 How am I meant to react instantaneously to documents that I have never
3 seen before?
4 JUDGE KWON: I don't think the Tribunal has the rule the witness
5 has to be shown the documents he's going to see during the course of
6 cross-examination. But you can answer as far as you can know. So if you
7 have nothing to testify, you can say so. If you have any comment, you
8 can make it in such a way.
9 THE WITNESS: Well, I would like to go down that I think
10 witnesses should also have rights to see certain documents.
11 Mr. Karadzic requested to see me before the session in court, and
12 I agreed to that. Mr. Karadzic could have been polite enough to show me
13 those documents when I went to the prison to visit him.
14 In response to your question, as far as I'm able to answer it,
15 firstly, I was not aware at the time either of the documents you showed
16 me yesterday and presented to the Court or of this report that you show
17 to me this afternoon. If we are not informed, either by your government,
18 and we had a producer and office at that time working in Pale, or if I
19 was not informed on the other side of the front-lines by the Bosnian
20 government, then obviously it is very difficult for me, as a journalist
21 there, in what was still a fairly anarchic situation at the beginning of
22 June 1992, to give that news. We gave that news as well as we could. We
23 tried to check both with the Bosnian Presidency and with the UN then
24 present in Sarajevo
25 As far as I'm aware, at the time our reports were as accurate as
1 they could possibly be, given the limitations. And, of course, there are
2 limitations to the accuracy of a reporter working in an anarchic war
3 zone, specifically in a city like Sarajevo
4 and as difficult as it was to get from A to B.
5 Q. Thank you. But, you see, this is not a document that I'm asking
6 you about. It's really the events, and you reported on these events
7 quite contrary to what is stated here.
8 At one point, it was said that -- at no point was it said that
9 there was an exchange of fire, that there were victims, and that the
10 majority of victims were Serb, and you never reported any of that,
11 because if one was to just listen to your reports, we would just hear
12 that there was shooting in Sarajevo
13 here that there were dead and also a lot of damaged homes, and from your
14 reporting one could not even divine that there were any Serb victims and
15 that the Muslims were the ones who had actually started the fighting.
16 So you're just pointing out these events because your reporting
17 on them was quite opposite to what is stated here.
18 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nicholls.
19 MR. NICHOLLS: Again, Your Honour, that may be in the guise of
20 putting one's case, but it's really not -- it's really more argument
21 without a question. Putting one's case, I would say, in general is
22 saying what one's position is on a particular point that's in dispute
23 between the parties, which Mr. Karadzic has done on the issues that this
24 witness has to deal with. It's not continually, continually talking
25 about injuries -- alleged injuries to your side, or things of that
1 nature, and there was no question here.
2 JUDGE KWON: I think he was putting his case, and then the
3 witness is capable of answering this question, in my opinion, as far as
4 he can.
5 THE WITNESS: Well, I'll do my best, Your Honour.
6 My first reaction is, as far as saying you expect me, on one side
7 of the war zone, on one side of the front-lines, to hop over backwards
8 and forwards to find out precisely what's happening on the other side.
9 That is a ridiculous expectation of any war correspondent in any war
10 zone. You are reporting from one side or the other.
11 However, at that time, as I just mentioned, we had a team in
12 Pale. We were in daily contact with them by telephone lines that still
13 worked at that stage, and we asked them. At no time, Mr. Karadzic, did
14 you inform that team staying at the Pension Olympic, with a producer who
15 speaks your language, of any of these facts, nor did you offer to take
16 him down there to see those facts. They asked. They were refused.
17 When we, somewhat later than the events shown yesterday in this
18 court, went to Pale and tried to film there from your side, we were
19 arrested again and again. We could never work. Now, that's not my
20 fault. That's your fault. If you were unable to put your case and give
21 the facts, as you saw them, to an international audience, you can't blame
22 us if we tried and were refused by you, your government, and your
24 JUDGE KWON: Mr. van Lynden, one may interpret the accused's
25 question to this effect: Watching your clip -- watching your video only,
1 one cannot conclude as to the origin of the fire. What would be your
3 THE WITNESS: My comment would be that most of the fire, not all
4 of it -- we cannot vouch for all of it, and nor would I dare to do so,
5 nor could we see all of it. I was at one side of the building, then at
6 another side of the building. I couldn't see the whole of Sarajevo
7 continually. Nor do I have eyes in the back of my head, Your Honour.
8 Most of the fire we saw came down from the southern hills into Sarajevo
9 lying at the bottom of the valley. Therefore, we concluded that that
10 fire came from the districts held, because the Bosnian Serbs held the
11 southern hills overlooking Sarajevo
12 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
13 THE WITNESS: Let me add one point.
14 I'm not claiming that there was no return fire whatsoever, but
15 nearly all the fire we saw and witnessed during those nights was onto
17 to the west which were not -- we were not able to see. You can't be
18 everywhere simultaneously. It's a large drawn-out city, Sarajevo, and
19 that should be borne in mind.
20 JUDGE KWON: Thank you very much.
21 Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 Please do not begrudge what I've said. I'm really not trying to
24 attack you. When we showed yesterday what Delic was reporting -- or,
25 rather, Halilovic, on the successes against the Serbs, you believed that
1 he may be overdoing it a bit, but from this document we see that he
2 wasn't exaggerating. And I am just trying to show it to you, that the
3 media did not report on this. So the international public opinion could
4 have been misinformed. We did not start the fire. Their fire was the
5 initial fire, and we just responded.
6 Now, I would like to tender this document, pending its
7 translation. Oh, it's been translated. We do have a translation,
8 Your Honours, but it's not in e-court.
9 JUDGE KWON: I have no clue what documents the witness and the
10 Prosecutors have seen. Could it be brought to the Bench, the document?
11 Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
12 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honours, excuse me. I didn't want to object,
13 no objection to slow things down, but I thought if there were more
14 documents that aren't in e-court, perhaps we it could use the ELMO, and
15 then the documents could be broadcast since there is no need for these
16 not to be shown.
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes, I didn't say so because I was afraid it might
18 be a confidential document. It seems to be an interpretation of the --
19 do you have the 65 ter number of the original, Mr. Karadzic?
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1231. 1D, 1231.
21 JUDGE KWON: That is not in the e-court. You said you have the
22 original in the same number? No, not yet.
23 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
24 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
25 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm sorry, again no objection.
1 Could I just see the English translation. I saw it from a
2 distance, I want to make sure I'm on the same page.
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes. They will be admitted, but MFI'd, pending
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] As for the question by
6 Mr. Nicholls, the translations were sent by e-mail.
7 JUDGE KWON: We have full translation, but it was not up-loaded,
8 so that's why we didn't see it.
9 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
10 JUDGE KWON: So that's a draft translation, so it will be MFI'd,
11 pending full translation.
12 Sorry for the inconvenience. Let's continue.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be MFI D195.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 Could we now have 1D18 [as interpreted], please. I have the
17 These reports are in English alone because we did not have the
18 originals, as we took this from -- it's 1218. This is not 1218, what we
19 have before us. Could we please have 1D1218. Yes, that is the document.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Now, I will read this out in English, although we can see it on
22 the screens:
23 [In English] "Command of the 1st Romanija Brigade, strictly
24 confidential, 11th of June, 1992.
25 "Combat reports. Submit to Command of 4th Corps.
2 "During the day of 11th of June, 1992, in the region of
3 Vrbanja Bridge
4 Parliament and right from the Vrbanja Bridge
5 streets Gunduliceva and Branimira Cosica connect, also PAM and sniper
6 activity was spotted.
7 In the region where the streets Alekse Bojovica and
8 Milorada Pejdalica connect, a bigger concentration of Green Berets was
9 spotted, and it is assumed that their headquarters is there as well. At
10 13.30 hours, I got the information that from the region of the
11 Zemaljski Muzej, there was an action from mortars on our units. And from
12 the region of the executive council there was action with Zoljas and Osas
13 on the position of the units 1st Brigade. Across the L oris a
14 machine-gun nest was spotted, and behind the blue skyscrapers number 1,
15 2, and 3. Snipers were spotted between the streets Ivana Krndelja and
16 Milutina Turaskovic --" I think it's "Djuraskovic." Also -- and so on
17 and so on.
18 Mr. van Lynden, you see the date here is the 11th of June, and
19 they are swearing by cease-fires and truces, and yet you can see the fire
20 that the Serb Army and Grbavica were under from the buildings that were
21 south of Holiday Inn, between the Holiday Inn Hotel and Miljetska, the
22 Zemaljski Museum
23 apartment buildings, the Parliament building, and so on. Was it really
24 impossible for you to obtain this information and to report on it?
25 A. As far as I'm aware, by the 11th of June I had left Sarajevo and
1 was in Pale. Therefore, if I should have been aware of that situation,
2 it is you and your government who should have made me aware of it. And
3 we were not made aware of it, nor were requests to go to the front-lines
4 honoured by you or your government or your military.
5 My final point would be, in reading this, which I am reading for
6 the first time, a line which comes up a couple of times talking about
7 Green Berets. This is a figment of Serb imagination. I never saw units
8 of people with green berets walking around in Sarajevo in June 1992.
9 And those are the only comments that I can make about this.
10 Q. Well, Mr. van Lynden, that is precisely the reason --
11 JUDGE KWON: Judge Morrison has a question.
12 JUDGE MORRISON: You said yesterday, Mr. van Lynden, that you
13 were aware of the Sarajevo-based forces having 120-millimetre mortars.
14 THE WITNESS: Not in June 1992. I saw them in March 1994. I
15 never saw them -- personally saw them fired, but I saw them at a UN
16 weapons collection point in March 1994.
17 JUDGE MORRISON: Right, that was my next question. You never
18 personally saw them fired?
19 THE WITNESS: No.
20 JUDGE MORRISON: Because as an ex-mortar man, you probably would
21 have taken particular notice of that, had you done so.
22 THE WITNESS: I was aware, but I didn't see it, that there must
23 have been what I would call smaller mortar units, 60 or 80 or
24 120-millimetre mortars, that there must have been some on the Bosnian
25 side. That's relatively close action, front-line weaponry. The
1 120-millimetre can be used to fire further. As I said, I never saw it
2 being fired. I didn't see it being fired, either, on the Bosnian Serb
3 side. The only time during the war in Yugoslavia I saw these units and
4 filmed those units firing was outside Vukovar in 1991.
5 JUDGE MORRISON: Thank you.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 Q. Does that mean, Mr. van Lynden, that you should be able to see
8 the two being fired so that you could report on who it was, who was
9 firing? So did you actually have to see the weapon barrel? Did you see
10 the barrels of Serb weaponry, or were you guessing on where they were
11 coming from, based on the azimuth or some other data, whereas on the
12 other hand the Muslim side would have to point out that the barrel was
13 smoking, so that would determine who was opening fire?
14 A. Yes, I did see some of the fire coming from your positions
15 specifically on the top of the mountain, to the position that
16 General Mladic was to take me to in September 1992. Looking at the maps,
17 we were aware at that time that that was an area controlled by your
18 forces, and from there rockets were being fired onto Sarajevo. That, we
19 could see clearly, and were filmed, and, indeed, a few of those shots
20 were shown in some of the pieces shown to the Court yesterday. What we
21 saw is you see where it lands, in which direction it's going. There is a
22 trail. I mean, that was clearly visible in the images shown to this
23 Court yesterday. What we witnessed in those early days of June 1992 was
24 that most of the fire, not only, but most of the fire, the heavy
25 concentration of fire, was incoming into the city of Sarajevo. As I said
1 before, we could see that it was coming from the hillsides. There was
2 trails of heavy machine-gun fire, probably anti-aircraft gun fire, and we
3 could see the rockets. You could see these rockets. We filmed them, and
4 they were coming from one direction, and they were landing in the city.
5 And, therefore, from that we deduced where it was coming from and who was
6 doing the firing.
7 JUDGE MORRISON: Can we also know what is meant by Zoljas and
8 Osas, in terms of the weaponry? Neither term is familiar to me.
9 Mr. Karadzic, can you assist?
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, if I can assist, these are
11 hand held rocket-launchers.
12 [In English] Rocket launchers from -- shoulder rocket-launchers.
13 THE WITNESS: They would be RPG-7s in the Western parlance, I
15 JUDGE MORRISON: Yeah, I was in the army so long ago, we were
16 still using muskets.
17 THE WITNESS: Well, in the West, we never used RPG-7s. It's a
18 Soviet-developed weaponry that was, I think, taken over by the Yugoslav
19 arms industry.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 Q. Speaking of this, could we now please pull up P927 in e-court to
22 take just a brief look at what this report is reporting on.
23 And while we wait for it to come up, Mr. van Lynden, I am a bit
24 confused that you see Hresa from the military hospital, which was
25 impossible to see, and yet you could not see the area outside the
1 military hospital from which fire was opened on Sarajevo. And, secondly,
2 when you say on the 9th that rockets were landing on Sarajevo, do you
3 exclude the possibility that Serbs had control over certain areas of
5 rockets were falling on Sarajevo
6 of Sarajevo
7 A. Mr. Karadzic, you are again asking various different questions
8 altogether, mixed up. I will try to take them point by point, beginning
9 with the last point.
10 I have just said that the rockets that we filmed landing on
12 Bosnian government. Those were not Muslim parts, as you referred to
13 them. Serbs and Croats lived there as well. I did not see, and nor did
14 we film, rockets land on the districts of Grbavica, Ilidza, Hrasno, and
16 You ask whether I exclude the possibility that Serbs controlled.
17 I have never excluded the possibility. In fact, I've been taken, albeit
18 somewhat later in September 1992, and again in February 1994, to those --
19 well, to some of those districts by your forces. I've never excluded
20 that they were not -- were controlled by the Serbs. No, they weren't
21 controlled by the Serbs.
22 Q. Thank you. I would like to draw your attention to this image.
23 Could someone please switch on the e-court image for
24 Mr. van Lynden. I believe he doesn't have it.
25 THE WITNESS: I do, I do. I think so. Is this the photograph?
1 JUDGE KWON: Would you like the witness to mark the image now?
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I would like to ask the
3 witness to mark certain things there.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Mr. van Lynden, based on the report that we read out a few
6 moments ago, where it said that fire was opened from the Parliament
7 building, that's number 3 on your image; correct?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. Thank you. Can you see the Executive Council or, rather, the
10 government building, and could you please mark it with number 6? That's
11 the next number. The government building, the Government of
13 JUDGE KWON: Before that, could we use the blue colour this time.
15 Please go on.
16 THE WITNESS: By June 1992, the only government building that I
17 entered was the Presidency. These buildings -- I think the building
18 you're referring to is -- I'll put an arrow next to it [marks], and this
19 would be number 6, but I never entered that building.
20 The Parliament building, as far as I'm aware, was basically a
21 front-line position.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 Q. You've marked it properly. Yes, that is the government building,
24 or the Executive Council at the time. It had been evacuated, and as you
25 can see, it was used for combat operations.
1 Can you mark the museum that is also referred to here,
2 Zemaljski Muzej? That's the main museum there. It's referred to here as
3 the location from where mortar fire came.
4 A. You state that the building was used for combat operations. I'm
5 not aware of that. It may have been.
6 I should like to point out to Your Honours that being based in
7 building number 1, it would be very difficult to see fire emanating from
8 those buildings going out, let us say, towards us from where this picture
9 is taken.
10 As to the precise location of the museum, to which, by the way, I
11 never went - it wasn't a museum open to the public during that time - it
12 would be somewhere towards where the photograph was taken from, somewhere
13 in front of the Holiday Inn, somewhere in that -- let me -- very roughly
14 in this sort of area [marks]. But from this perspective, I can't be
16 And, secondly, this is an area of town, Your Honours, that if you
17 drove past it, you drove at incredible speed because you were open to
18 fire. It's not an area where you ever stopped or walked around and
19 checked the buildings, nor was I ever taken there by the Bosnian Army, so
20 I cannot be precise.
21 Q. Thank you. I think that it's perhaps a bit further to the left,
22 underneath this arrow where it says "4." You can see a nice white
23 building there, and then it's in that direction. But I think you're
24 pretty close. Could you please put number 7 there?
25 A. [Marks]
1 Q. Can you remember where the street is that leads to Vrbanja?
2 Well, maybe we don't even see it here. Where do you think that the
3 Vrbanja Bridge
4 government building? It is the lower right-hand corner; isn't that
6 A. Well, on this photograph, no bridge is visible, at least not to
7 my eye at this moment.
8 Q. But the general area, the direction. Can you mark that for us?
9 Do you know where the bridge was in relation to the picture we have here?
10 Vrbanja, that's the bridge below the Jewish cemetery.
11 A. Well, in that case, it would, indeed, be on the right-hand side
12 of this -- of this image. So, I mean, in around here [marks].
13 Q. Thank you. Could you please put number 8 there.
14 A. [Marks]
15 Q. Now, Mr. van Lynden, you are at the military hospital. There's
16 an exchange of fire here. All of these positions are to the south of
17 Holiday Inn. On the other side of the river is Grbavica and Serb-held
18 territory. My understanding is that if you are reporting, you should
19 have reported about who was firing at who, or at least you could have
20 said that it was an exchange of gun-fire and that you don't know who is
21 firing at who. This way, your reports leave the impression that it's
22 Serbs who are firing at the city and that they are firing from the hills.
23 We'll go back to the hills now. What do you say to that? How come you
24 did not notice that right in front of you, right in front of you
25 literally, there was shooting?
1 A. Well, we showed the shooting. But as I have explained, from what
2 we could see and what we could film, most -- by far the most was incoming
3 into the area of Sarajevo
4 As I mentioned yesterday, if there -- and this is in relation to
5 my comments about the Marsal Tito Barracks after its evacuation, and this
6 very precise artillery fire that descended upon that complex after its
7 evacuation, that was a sign to us that your artillery observers had
8 brought the fire down accurately and then there was sustained artillery
9 fire for military purposes on that target. We imagined, although we did
10 not go inside, the purpose was to destroy any military equipment that had
11 been left behind by the Yugoslav Army after its evacuation, which would
12 absolutely make it a legitimate military target.
13 The fire that we observed in the rest of the city, however, was
14 of a completely different nature. This was not sustained artillery fire
15 on one particular point, which is what artillery is usually used for,
16 followed up by a movement of infantry. Instead, what we got was fire all
17 over the place, which made it extremely difficult to film, which is
18 something Your Honours should bear in mind. You only saw a small amount
19 of what was actually happening all over the city, and not on any specific
20 point. We did not see that on the front-line that we have just drawn and
21 that you've been referring to by the Parliament, by the Jewish cemetery,
22 that there was sustained fire coming down right on that area, which would
23 have been logical. You're right, it would have been logical. It's a
24 military front-line. Instead, we saw it falling all over the place far
25 away from the front-lines, and that's what we reported.
1 Q. Do you know, Mr. van Lynden, that Sarajevo was full of legitimate
2 targets, and also that the Muslim forces used trucks in order to open
3 fire at our positions, and then they would leave that particular
4 location? That's what a witness explained to us, that that was the
5 customary thing, that a mortar is mounted on a truck during urban
6 fighting and then it retreats. Do you know that?
7 A. I'm aware that this happens. I have not seen, myself, a truck
8 with a mortar mounted on it while I was in Sarajevo. However, I believe
9 that under the Geneva Conventions, military forces need to be very much
10 sure that if they return fire on civilian areas in a city, that they are
11 actually targeting a military target. A truck that fires a couple of
12 mortar bombs and drives away again, therefore, becomes a very hard
13 military target. I understand that. I did not witness one of these
14 trucks. I'm aware that they've existed, I've seen them in Beirut, but I
15 did not see them in Sarajevo
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I would like to --
17 actually, this map has already been admitted, but could the notes be
18 admitted, and also the map that we agreed upon with Mr. Harland. That's
19 the relief map that the Prosecution has, and it is here in this binder
20 that I received, and the number is -- well, of course, it has a different
21 number now, since Mr. Harland marked it.
22 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, do you like to tender this map or
23 picture marked by Mr. van Lynden now, or are you okay to delete this?
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, no, I want it to be admitted,
25 and also I want 1218 to be admitted.
1 JUDGE KWON: If you could kindly put your name and date on this
3 THE WITNESS: It's --
4 JUDGE KWON: 20th of May.
5 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes, this will be admitted.
7 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D196, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE KWON: And I take it you do not objection to the admission
9 of the 1D1218.
10 MR. NICHOLLS: No, Your Honour. I just wasn't clear. Maybe I
11 missed something of the explanation of why there is no B/C/S original.
12 Mr. Karadzic started to explain that, but I thought that it didn't appear
13 on the transcript that I could see, or I missed it. But I'm just not
14 clear on why we don't have that.
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, we got the exhibits from the
17 Galic case, but we have these only in English. That's what it's all
18 about. We could not obtain the originals. This is what we got from the
19 Galic case.
20 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nicholls, do you like to mark it for
21 identification until we get the original?
22 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, Your Honour. I mean, I think if it was
23 admitted in Galic, then there would be an original. We haven't --
24 Mr. Reid hasn't found it yet, but we'll see. Thank you.
25 JUDGE KWON: So could you tell us if you find the original.
1 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll mark it for identification.
3 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I please have this map now, but
5 the variant that we agreed upon with Mr. Harland, 02 from this binder.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Until then, Mr. Harland [sic], may I ask you the following: The
8 fire that comes from hills and that falls on the town of Sarajevo, your
9 understanding is that it is Serbs firing at the city; is that right?
10 A. I'm not Mr. Harland.
11 Q. I'm expecting Harland's map. Sorry. You're Mr. van Lynden, but
12 it's Harland's map.
13 So, anyway, on the basis of your reporting, if there is fire at
14 the city coming from the hills, it's the Serbs firing; right?
15 A. The firing that we saw coming from the hills to the east and from
16 the hills to the south would have come from Serb positions, yes. That's
17 the firing we referred to, we filmed. You could see the rockets coming
18 from that one position, Mr. Karadzic. That was a position commanded --
19 used by your troops. It's the position, I believe, that Mr. Mladic took
20 me to when he allowed me to interview him in September 1992.
21 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nicholls, do you have the exhibit number of this
22 map 2 in this binder?
23 MR. NICHOLLS: My understanding, Your Honour, is there actually
24 was no agreement on this map.
25 JUDGE KWON: No, the original, the original one.
1 MR. NICHOLLS: The original, yeah, we can bring that up.
2 JUDGE KWON: Unmarked original.
3 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] However, since it hasn't been
5 agreed upon completely yet, can we get the map where the hills were
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we can dig out the map marked by Mr. Harland,
8 separate from whether we can understand it or not. I don't remember the
9 exhibit number.
10 MR. NICHOLLS: The unmarked, Your Honour, is 11790. I found
12 JUDGE KWON: The one marked by Mr. Harland?
13 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm still checking.
14 JUDGE KWON: I think the witness would be benefitted if he could
15 have an original copy in his front. I'm ready to show mine.
16 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that exhibit was D134.
18 JUDGE KWON: Let's try.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let's try. There is one that's
20 even better than this, but let's try.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Mr. van Lynden, this is an aerial image of the Sarajevo Valley
23 Can you find your way here? Can you show us, for example, where the
24 military hospital is in relation to this map?
25 A. Not precisely from this height. It would be a more reasonable
1 question: Can I say where the airport is? Yes, I can. Shall I mark the
2 airport, begin with that?
3 Q. That's all right. I suggest that you use the colour red for
4 marking that.
5 A. This is the colour red? I'll just try. No, it's green, I think.
6 It's green. Okay. So shall I put a "1" on the airport? Okay.
7 Q. I think so, yes.
8 A. [Marks]
9 Q. Now --
10 A. The military hospital, you would like me to, I mean obviously
11 roughly, mark this as well?
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. [Marks]
14 Q. Yes, roughly. Can you mark Grbavica?
15 A. [Marks]
16 Q. Thank you. Do you know where Nedzarici is, the Serb
17 neighbourhood of Nedzarici?
18 Let me help you. To the north of number 1 and to the west of
20 A. [Marks]
21 Q. Right, thank you. Do you see the area between number 4 and
22 number 1, the airport settlement held by the Serbs as part of Dobrinja?
23 Can you see that?
24 A. The part of Dobrinja would be to the south. That's Dobrinja
25 [marks], unless you're referring to this area [indicating].
1 Q. Precisely, thank you. Now, can I ask you the following: Do you
2 see the letter Z? It is a Z with a diacritic. Is that the hill Zuc?
3 A. Roughly, yes. I mean, up there, it's to the north of the city,
5 Q. Thank you. Can you place a number there, and could you tell us
6 who held Zuc?
7 A. [Marks]. As far as I'm aware, in June 1992 it was held by your
8 forces and was taken by the Bosnian forces towards the end of 1992.
9 Q. Thank you. Do you see the letter H to the east of number 7, and
10 to the best of your knowledge is that the hill of Hum, with the repeater
11 and everything else we saw in the reports? Is that Hum?
12 A. It may be. I never went to Hum, so I don't know.
13 Q. But it can be seen from all positions in Sarajevo; isn't that
15 A. There were hills to the north of Sarajevo. Whether that was Hum,
16 I can't say that now, no. I don't know.
17 Q. Do you remember the repeater that can be seen from all points in
19 A. Yes, roughly. I know the building you are talking with the
20 television relay station. Yes, that could be seen, yes. If that is Hum,
21 then it would be roughly there, yes.
22 Q. You can put number 8 there and tell us who held Hum all the time.
23 A. [Marks]. As far as I'm aware, it was held by the Bosnian forces.
24 But I was never taken there, so I didn't see that with my own eyes.
25 Q. Thank you. Do you see the letter G up here, and do you agree
1 that that would be Grdonj, the hill of Grdonj that is above this entire
2 north-east side and the old city? Was that also held by the Muslims?
3 A. Again, I don't know. I never went up there.
4 Q. But would you accept that, if I were to tell you that that is
5 Grdonj, Feature 901, and that it was held by the Muslims throughout?
6 A. I can't contest that. I do not know.
7 Q. Thank you. Do you see the letter J to the east? Is that the
8 Jajce Barracks? You'd have to know that.
9 A. Why should I have to know that?
10 Q. Well, it's a striking building and it's a military facility, and
11 they had considerable weaponry there.
12 A. I was not taken to the building, nor saw the weaponry there. But
13 as far as I'm aware, yes, there was a barracks there.
14 Q. Would you mark it there, then? That would be number 9 by now,
15 because you did not recognise Grdonj.
16 A. [Marks]
17 Q. Now let us move to the southern hills. Do you see where the red
18 and blue lines are? Do you know where Colina Kapa is?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Do you know where Bistrik Kula is?
21 A. We were taken -- is this the same Kula as where there was a
23 Q. No, no. The prison was in Lukavica. These are hills on the
24 southern slopes on the southern -- in the southern part of Sarajevo
25 you know where Debelo Brdo is?
1 A. I remember the name, but I can't pronounce it -- say precisely.
2 I'm aware what we used to call simply Mount Trebevic as the southern
3 hills. That's what we would refer to. Every precise name -- and we may
4 have been wrong with that, but I'm not aware of, no.
5 Q. You're right, it is Mount Trebevic
6 mountain. But the peaks on Trebevic, as you call it, rightly so, I mean,
7 there are several mountaintops that are held by the Muslims, and they are
8 closer to town, and the altitude is between 700 and 900 metres above sea
9 level. Did you know that?
10 A. But they are to the north, not to the south. And in my
11 testimony, I referred to hills to the south and to the east of the city.
12 Q. What about Grdonj, the Jajce Barracks, and these hills in
13 Trebevic; are they to the east and south of town?
14 A. Trebevic is basically to the south. Grdonj, which you pointed
15 out, which I was not aware of, is to the north of town. Jajce is
16 slightly, it would seem, to the east, but still at a relatively low level
17 near the valley bank.
18 Q. Now we have an entire series of mountaintops on the northern
19 slopes of Trebevic; that is, to the south of town. And these summits are
20 held by the Muslim side. They have guns, mortars, and other artillery
21 pieces. Are you ruling that out?
22 A. Which Bosnian Army positions are you referring to on Trebevic?
23 I'm not aware of those positions.
24 Q. You claim that the Muslims did not have anything on Trebevic,
25 that all of that was Serb held; is that right?
1 A. Basically, as one follows the red line, one sees that the hills
2 rise up from there, and that was Serb-held territory, as far as I'm
3 aware. I'm aware that the Bosnians held hills to the north of Sarajevo
4 I am not aware of any high positions held by the Bosnian Army on
5 Mount Trebevic, no.
6 Q. Thank you, Mr. van Lynden. It's much easier for me now. I see
7 now that perhaps it wasn't that you were partial, but you were simply
8 uninformed. The disastrous effect upon us is the same, but at least I
9 see it wasn't ill-intentioned.
10 Now, I'm going to tell you, Mr. van Lynden, which mountaintops
11 were held by the Muslims on Trebevic. Colina Kapa, 966 metres altitude.
12 JUDGE MORRISON: Mr. Karadzic, you say you're going to tell the
13 witness. Well, that isn't really very much use. You need to establish
14 the position by evidence rather than simply telling. What you tell a
15 witness is not evidence in the case, in the same way that the question
16 you ask is not evidence in the case. It's the answer which is the
17 evidence in the case. And the witness is here to provide answers, not to
18 be told matters.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, then, I could be pleased.
20 The witness said that on Trebevic, on the southern side, the hills were
21 held by the Serbs and that the fire from these hills was Serb. That is
22 not true. They held more hills than we did. However --
23 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, stop making your speech. Just put
24 your question to the witness.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 Q. Do you think that you were supposed to know, nevertheless, who
2 held Trebevic because you were reporting? You were supposed to know who
3 held which position exactly.
4 A. In no war zone do the forces give you precise locations of where
5 their forces are stationed or precise front-lines. Your forces took me
6 on Mount Trebevic
7 over the -- on the mountain overlooking Sarajevo. At no time was I
8 informed by your forces, Look over there, that's where the Bosnian Army
9 is; therefore, we are in danger here, or we are being shot at from these
10 places on Mount Trebevic
11 to the Lukavica Barracks from Pale --
12 Q. Thank you.
13 A. -- along over Mount Trebevic
14 were taken there later. We were never, ever told -- I was never told, at
15 least, that there were Bosnian Army positions there.
16 Q. Thank you. Could you just mark one last thing for us? Where was
17 it that Mladic took you? Could you mark it on this map, please, with the
18 number 9 or 10, I believe.
19 A. Number 10, it would be. I'm not sure that the position is
20 actually on this map. It is to the east of the city. It was clearly
21 within your lines, and it was a mountaintop position and you saw the
22 whole town. It must have been roughly, but this is a rough marking
23 [marks], where I've now marked number 10.
24 Q. Thank you. That is probably where Hresa is, or thereabout.
25 Could you please just put your initials there, and then I would like to
1 tender this map. Please put down the date and your initials. Thank you.
2 A. [Marks]
3 JUDGE KWON: The image marked by the witness will be admitted.
4 THE REGISTRAR: As D198, Your Honours.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 Could we now please have 1219, 1219. It's an e-court document.
7 And this map may be removed.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. While we're waiting for it to come up, Mr. van Lynden, please
10 tell us which hotel in Sarajevo
11 hotel had been burned down and torched by the time you arrived in
13 A. Well, I didn't stay there, for the obvious reason that the hotel
14 had -- I think there was a hotel called Bristol, but I can't be precisely
15 sure. When we entered town, we had been told by the Sky News
16 correspondent who had been there previously, Dan Damon, that there were
17 no hotels to stay at. He had stayed, I believe, simply in a flat with
18 people. We were told that a hotel had been burnt. I think it was called
20 actually go there because it had been burnt. So, I mean, there's no
21 point visiting hotels that have already been burnt in the past.
22 Q. Very well. Well, after this document, we will show that that
23 wasn't exactly how it was. But here now we have the document,
24 Mr. van Lynden, and it says "Report of the 16th of June."
25 Now, on the 14th of June, the cease-fire of 1st of June came into
1 effect, and we see now what was happening on the 16th of June, combat
2 report for the corps command:
3 [In English] "The enemy snipers fired from directions of
4 Assembly, Bristol
5 night anti-aircraft machine-gun fired from direction from Assembly, and
6 it burned second floor -- two floors in building from the right side of
7 Zagreb Street
8 and managed to localise the fire."
9 [Interpretation] So as you can see, on that night -- or, rather,
10 on that day there was fire, and a building in Zagreb Street, Grbavica,
11 was set on fire, and that was rather striking. Did you report on that?
12 A. As I have already said, by that stage I was no longer in
14 Q. Well, on page 11 of the transcript of yesterday, you said that
15 you were in Sarajevo
16 A. No, I --
17 Q. The Prosecutor put the question to you, and we can take a look.
18 And you also told us, during the preparations, that you were there in the
19 Kosevo Hospital
20 A. I entered Sarajevo
21 precise date of my departure from Sarajevo
22 daily basis is ferry our tapes from Sarajevo to Ilidza, where the
23 producer from Pale would come to collect them. We would then go back
24 into the city, i.e., we were crossing lines on a daily basis, and he
25 would take the tapes to Pale to have them edited and then transmit the
1 pictures to London
2 At around the 8th -- 7th or 8th of June, maybe the 9th, it was no
3 longer -- we drove to Ilidza, but it was no longer at that moment
4 possible for our producer to reach us, and we therefore took the decision
5 that we had to get our pictures to London, that we ourselves then drove
6 from Ilidza, crossing the airport, via the Lukavica Barracks, driving up
7 Mount Trebevic, and drove to Pale. We then stayed in Pale for a number
8 of days. We were then withdrawn from Pale back to London. And I only
9 came back to Sarajevo
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. We have not heard this
11 so far. You didn't state that for your statement, nor did you mention it
12 during our conversation in the prison.
13 Now I would like to tender this document. It was obtained in a
14 similar manner from the Galic case, but we only have the English
16 JUDGE KWON: Shall we treat it the same as the one we saw before?
17 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, Your Honour, although Mr. Reid appears to
18 have located the original from the exhibit.
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Do you have the number for the original as
21 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
22 JUDGE KWON: Then we'll admit this.
23 MR. NICHOLLS: Sorry, Your Honour, I may have misspoken. I can't
24 say that it was an exhibit or had an exhibit number, but we have an
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D199.
2 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Let's continue.
3 MR. NICHOLLS: And, Your Honours, I'm sorry, I believe now it was
4 D241 in the Galic case.
5 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. We'll keep it for the record.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 Could I now please have 1D01098, where there is something
8 mentioned about hotels.
9 Yes. We should have a translation of this document. You can
10 remove the Serbian version. It is sufficient for me to have it. I will
11 be reading out from the Serb version.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Now, Mr. van Lynden, this is an official note from the National
14 Security Service, dated April 20th, 1992
15 20th, 1992, through operative process, we have found out certain
16 information about hotels in the city of Sarajevo.
17 "Green Berets --" of which you claimed that they were a figment
18 of our imagination, well, "The Green Berets have taken over Hotels Europa
19 and Stari Grad. They have asked the Hotel Europa director,
20 Ilija Macanovic, to leave the hotel in 10 minutes together with all other
21 employees of Serbian nationality, under the threat of armed force.
22 According to unverified information, one of the main headquarters of the
23 Green Berets is located at this hotel.
24 "We have also learned that on the 19th of April, 1992
25 Green Berets have taken over the Hotel Zagreb. They demanded Serbian
1 employees to leave the hotel under the threat of armed force. Along with
2 Serbs, Muslim employees have left the hotel, due to fear from potential
3 attack on the hotel."
4 Mr. van Lynden, not a single hotel was torched. They were all
5 captured by armed forces. Is that correct?
6 A. I was not in Sarajevo
7 being taken over by armed force. The only hotel that I ever entered in
9 town. I did not go to any other hotel -- I didn't stay in a hotel when I
10 was in Sarajevo
11 stayed in the building used to house VIPs, as I explained yesterday. So
12 I'm not aware of this, nor, should I just add, was I ever taken by
13 Bosnian Army, for instance, for conversations or to meet a commander, to
14 a hotel building. So, I don't know, nor do I -- I'm not aware that I
15 ever reported on how the hotels of Sarajevo came to close or claim to be
17 Q. On page 16 of yesterday's transcript, you said that you didn't
18 stay at hotels for specific reasons, and what I have to point out, with
19 all due respect, I have to ask for precision, because if the transcript
20 leaves the impression that the hotels were closed because of Serbs and
21 that that was the reason why you couldn't stay at a hotel, that would
22 cast a certain image of Sarajevo
23 said something else, and here we have proof that that was not the case.
24 The hotels were taken over, Serbs were expelled from them, and this
25 happened a month before your arrival, and these hotels then remained in
1 the hands of the Green Berets, which were not a figment of our
2 imagination. They quite realistically, actually, killed some of us.
3 That's how it should be; correct?
4 A. I was told, before entering Sarajevo, that there were no hotels
5 open in Sarajevo
6 in which they had been burnt, was not something that I was aware of.
7 That, I pointed out yesterday. I do not know, as I was not in Sarajevo
8 in April 1992, whether this document is correct or not. I imagine this
9 is a document written by someone who, himself, is not in Sarajevo
10 in Ilidza. I do not know the source of information for the people -- the
11 person who wrote this document. I cannot, therefore, say whether it is
12 proof or not.
13 Coming again to the Green Berets, I never met anyone in the
14 Bosnian Army who described himself as Green Beret. I met people who
15 later described themselves as being members of the Black Swans, members
16 of various corps, of various Tigers, but Green Berets was not something I
17 encountered. I am aware that in Pale and -- Bosnian Serb soldiers
18 referred to their adversaries as Green Berets. But my point was that I
19 didn't actually see units walking around with green berets or calling
20 themselves the Green Berets.
21 Q. But do you believe Rasim Delic and Sefer Halilovic when they
22 report on the forces at their disposal, and among others they mention
23 that they have green berets, and they mention the number of men, which
24 does not necessarily mean that they had actual green caps or green berets
25 on their heads, but that that was what they were called; correct?
1 A. If -- neither Mr. Delic nor Mr. Halilovic ever mentioned
2 Green Berets to me in conversations that I had with either of them. And
3 I haven't seen those documents until the documents that you showed the
4 Court and me yesterday. That was the first time I had seen that
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, that document was obtained by
7 the Prosecution, and it was a document of an intelligence service. And,
8 of course, they wouldn't disclose their source.
9 But now I would like to tender this document, please.
10 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nicholls.
11 MR. NICHOLLS: No objection, Your Honour.
12 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
13 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE KWON: We admit it. It will be D200, Exhibit D200.
16 THE REGISTRAR: That's correct, Your Honour.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Do we have some more time before
18 the break? If so, I would gladly continue.
19 JUDGE KWON: If it is convenient, we'll have a break now for
20 25 minutes.
21 --- Recess taken at 3.33 p.m.
22 --- On resuming at 4.03 p.m.
23 JUDGE KWON: Before we begin, I'm afraid, Mr. Harvey, I didn't
24 give you the opportunity to introduce your new member to the Bench.
25 MR. HARVEY: Your Honour, I thought I had done so on a previous
1 occasion. But if I neglected to do so, my apologies to you and to
2 Mr. Eric Tully, who is our case manager.
3 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
4 MR. HARVEY: My apologies.
5 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, please continue.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 Could we now please pull up 1220 in e-court. We will go through
8 a few documents briefly just in order to get a full picture of what was
9 happening there. This, too, is a document from the Galic case, I
10 believe. You can see it before you, and I will read it out in English:
11 [In English] "13th of July 1992, regular combat report submit to
12 the Sarajevo
13 "During the day, the enemy at some moments carried out
14 reconnaissance over our forces with small groups, and it opened sniper
15 fire from the regions of the Mechanical Engineering Faculty,
16 Parliament - Hotel Bristol. We found out that a bigger concentration of
17 enemy forces is positioned in the rooms of the Technical School
18 basement at the Marsal Tito Barracks. Enemy transporters and tanks were
19 sighted in the Velesici region, not far from the tunnel, and above the
20 house of the police three transporters were positioned, along with two
21 enemy Pinzgauers."
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Mr. van Lynden, this is a report where we do not see that they
24 dominated with their fire, but they were very active. And we also see
25 what weaponry they had at their disposal. Do you agree with that? Do
1 you see, for instance, that there was a transporter and a tank in
2 Velesici, and so on?
3 A. I see that in the document, enemy transporters, which I imagine
4 means trucks, or possibly tank transporters - I don't know which - and
5 tanks are mentioned. I cannot verify if this information is correct or
6 not. I didn't see that. To the best of my awareness, I was in Sarajevo
7 on the 13th of July, 1992, but I did not see this. As far as I'm aware,
8 also, this is a document that comes from your own army. This is not a
9 document from an outside -- like the UN force.
10 Q. Well, Mr. van Lynden, this document is strictly confidential, and
11 it is a military secret. And we see that the command of a brigade is
12 reporting to the corps command. It's a genuine document. It cannot be
13 more genuine than this. It does not mention -- it mentions sniper fire
14 and some other movements, so it is genuine. In other words, in order for
15 the Serbs to be believed, they would have to have Christiane Amanpour
16 there on the spot.
17 Now I would like to tender this document, please.
18 A. Can I comment on the comment?
19 JUDGE KWON: You are inviting the comment from the witness. Stop
20 making comment.
21 Yes, briefly, Mr. van Lynden.
22 THE WITNESS: As far as I'm aware, documents -- the veracity of
23 the documents would be -- have to be seen to by experts, and I'm not an
24 expert. Therefore, I do not know if this document is or is not genuine.
25 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nicholls.
1 MR. NICHOLLS: Again, Your Honour, I'm not sure why there is only
2 a partial translation being admitted. Mr. Reid's found a translation of
3 the full document, which has paragraphs 2 and 3 in it, which are missing
4 from this. Three states that the situation in the territory of the zone
5 of responsibility is unchanged and the units successfully control their
6 areas. Paragraph 5 says that the morale is good and the security
7 situation is good, and there were no major changes. Paragraph 6 talks
8 about no logistics; difficulties. Paragraph 2 talks about fire from the
9 Romanija Corps towards the Bosnian side.
10 So no objection to the document, but we should have the full
12 JUDGE KWON: But does it mean that you have the full document?
13 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE KWON: And the number, which is ...?
15 MR. NICHOLLS: It's another Galic Defence document. It's not an
16 exhibit. We have an ERN number, is what we have. Mr. Reid's been able
17 to find it.
18 JUDGE KWON: So we'll mark for identification, until we have a
19 full document.
20 MR. NICHOLLS: And I'll provide the copy to my friends during the
21 break, and I don't know whether they have edited the document smaller. I
22 notice that this one - I can't see the top or bottom - but it doesn't
23 appear to have an ERN number, which the translation I have does have, so
24 I don't know quite what's going on.
25 JUDGE KWON: Unless you have an objection to the suggestion of
1 Mr. Nicholls, we'll admit the full interpretation as a Defence exhibit.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We do not object, but we did not
3 edit it. This is how this document was used in the Galic case. Probably
4 for the sake of court economy, they used this reduced version and they
5 only used points 1 and 4. But we have no objection to the whole document
6 being admitted.
7 Could we now see 1D1221.
8 JUDGE KWON: 1220 is exhibited. It will be exhibited as ...
9 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D201, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is quite possible that this
12 document, too, was admitted in a short form, but again it wasn't edited
13 by us, but rather in the Galic case.
14 So on the 19th of July, at 1700 hours, and I will read out in
16 [In English] "Regular combat report for the Sarajevo
17 Romanija Corps command.
18 "1. During the day, the enemy intensified its sniper activities,
19 especially from the following directions: Para Kosoric Square, Bristol
20 Electroprivreda Company, social -- School of Mechanical Engineering
21 tobacco factory, Assembly, and Vrbanja Bridge
22 of defence of 2nd Infantry Brigade around Vrbanja Bridge
23 is intensified. Grouping of enemy forces is noticed in the areas from
24 where snipers were firing. They fired with rifle grenades and from
25 infantry weapons from direction of Sirokaca towards Bosut Barracks."
1 [Interpretation] If someone edited this document, which is
2 possible, because we only see number 1, we do not object to the whole
3 document being admitted here. But the editing was done by the Galic
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Now, can you see that -- can you see what it says here about the
7 activities on the 17th of July, Mr. van Lynden? Were you aware of this
8 happening, that the Muslim side was active, as active as it states here?
9 A. I'm aware that there was firing from Bosnian Army positions
10 throughout the war. Apart from after the cease-fire in March 1992 --
11 1994, yes, they were firing. Am I precisely aware of these incidents?
12 No, I'm not.
13 Q. Did you know of these numerous civilian locations, schools,
14 factories, a state institution, the social security building, that they
15 were being used as military installations and that fire was opened from
16 those buildings on Serbian neighbourhoods and outskirts of town?
17 A. I was aware, yes, that there was a -- I was not taken there, but
18 that there was a likelihood of there being Bosnian Army positions within
19 the School of Mechanical Engineering. I got the name right of the Hotel
21 which had been burnt, as far as I'm aware. The Assembly, this must mean
22 the parliamentary building. Is that -- we were aware that there were
23 probably army -- Bosnian Army positions in there.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 I would like to tender this document.
1 JUDGE KWON: Shall we mark it for identification, until we have
2 the full original document or the full interpretation?
3 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, Your Honour, because I think that's necessary
4 for the context to see how, perhaps, also close the nexus is to the
5 witness's knowledge. There's only a small portion here, and what's
6 becoming clear is what's been done is to edit these documents down to
7 only showing actions of the enemy forces.
8 JUDGE KWON: Very well. We'll do so.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be MFI D202.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 Could we now have 65 ter 11557, please. This is an OTP number.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. While we are waiting for it to come up, Mr. van Lynden, I'd like
14 to just tell you that this is your report of December 5, 1992, and there
15 you're reporting on Otes. This is what we have. We see the first line.
16 It says a report by van Lynden, and in English it reads as follows:
17 [In English] "Otes burns. Four days after the Serbs launch their
18 offensive, Sarajevo
19 [Interpretation] You see that is what you reported; correct?
20 A. Correct.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 I would like to tender this document, please, and -- oh, it's
23 already been admitted as an OTP document.
24 Could we now see 01194, please, so that we can establish here
25 together, Mr. van Lynden, what was really going on. So 1D01194, please,
1 on the monitors, and then we will see what was really going on around
3 JUDGE KWON: Before doing so, could we have the exhibit number of
4 this 11557.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be Exhibit P937.
6 JUDGE KWON: P937.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. There should be a
8 translation. Yes, we have both versions now before us. Let's keep them
9 both there.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Now, this is your report of -- this document is dated the 1st of
12 December, whereas your report was dated the 5th of December. Here it
13 reads "Regular combat report" at 1800 hours by the Command of the
15 Item 1:
16 "The enemy has continued with intense attacks on the broad region
17 of Ilidza and Rajlovac in the afternoon hours. The enemy has attacked
18 from the region of Igman and the village of Kovaci
19 fire, and with infantry fire from the town of Otes directed at Ilidza.
20 In the direction of Sokolje Distribution Centre, the enemy has carried
21 out an unsuccessful infantry attack, with the support of enemy artillery,
22 on the region of Rajlovac."
23 Under 2, it reads:
24 "The unit of the Ilidza Brigade retaliated against the enemy
25 attack with a successful counter-attack, and conquered the access from
1 Azici to Nedzarici, as well as the centre of Otes.
2 "Throughout the morning, the battles continue," and our forces
3 linked up, and so on and so forth.
4 Now, Mr. van Lynden, can we now agree that this actually was a
5 Serbian counter-offensive and a Muslim offensive?
6 A. That was not my understanding of it at the time. We went to the
7 UN, and our information was based on what we were told by the UN.
8 I should add for the Court that I was not, myself, in Otes, but
9 the information that we reported came from the UN. I'll leave it there.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. We will get to that.
11 I would like to tender this document now, please, and I would
12 also like document 0195 up on the screens -- I apologise, 01195.
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes, unless it is objected to, 1D1194 will be
15 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D203, Your Honours.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I now have 1D1195. Yes, we
17 have that.
18 On the 5th -- well, it's the same date like when you were
19 reporting. Again, the commander of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps, on the
20 5th of December, 1992, to the Main Staff. Routine combat report.
21 Number 1:
22 "Enemy actions. Throughout the day, the enemy has carried out
23 the following actions:
24 At 800 hours, fired artillery at the following area:
25 Orlic-Smiljevici-Mijatovic hill, using 50 grenades and a simultaneous
1 infantry attack on the region of Skravnik."
2 I think that the interpreters have this on the screen. And they
3 are asking me to slow down, but I thought that they could read this
4 translation that is on the screen.
5 "Around 1100 hours attempted infantry attack on Hadzici.
6 "At 1135 hours precisely from the region of Brijesce Hill, using
7 122-millimetre Howitzers, fired 30 grenades at the region of Vogosca and
9 "At 1215 hours, resumed attack on Orlic using chemical warfare
10 (poisons) and artillery.
11 "From the region of Kovac, opened fire at Vojkovici, using mortar
12 as well as infantry."
13 Number 2:
14 "The Ilidza Brigade, in co-operation with the Igman Brigade,
15 successfully carries out duties --" or, rather, "operations in Otes."
16 Now, a few questions.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].
18 Q. Did you really miss this 50 shells from the area of Orlic, and
19 30 shells fired at Ilidza 11.35? Also, would that not have been a top
20 news item if you were to say that they were engaging chemical warfare and
21 using poison against us?
22 A. Did we really miss this? No, we reported that there was fighting
23 going on. We don't sit at the top of a building, counting shells going
24 in one direction or another. It's an impossibility, Mr. Karadzic. We
25 are not an international organisation. We are a TV crew with one
1 reporter and a producer and a cameraman. We film what we can. We were
2 in the center of the city during that day, until in the afternoon, we
3 were driving towards a TV station, and the pictures were shown yesterday
4 afternoon. We were aware there was firing in various parts of the city.
5 From where we were, we could certainly not see if anything was landing on
6 Vogosca, for instance, but there was certainly firing going on and --
7 there was firing going on. That's that point.
8 The chemical weapons, this is the first time I've ever heard of
9 chemical weapons being used, which again brings me to the question that I
10 have posed earlier. If you knew this at the time, why did you not bring
11 Western journalists to such points and prove -- give them the evidence of
12 what was happening? We were never told. We were not taken there. When
13 we asked, we were never given this information. This is the first time,
14 Your Honours, that I've ever seen this or heard this even mentioned
15 during the war in Bosnia
16 Q. Thank you. While I admit that we were not skillful enough in the
17 media war -- actually, we did not even get involved in that kind of war,
18 but we were hopeful that somebody would report, as they would report
19 about the Muslim side. However, as for the previous document, you say
20 Otes is burning, four days after the Serbs launch their offensive. So,
21 in a way, all of your reports, and the reports of many of your
22 colleagues, do not leave any doubt in anyone's mind as to the Serbs being
23 the ones to attack and that it's always their fault. Did you not inform
24 about that because you were ill-intentioned or because your editor
25 changed this? But, anyway, would you agree now that all of this caused
1 harm to us?
2 A. Under the difficult circumstances of a war, we reported as best
3 we could, as accurately as possible, and tried always to check our
4 information specifically with the United Nations, an outside force. We
5 realised that information given to us by the Bosnian government could be
6 tainted, as could information given by your government. We did as best
7 we could, under extremely difficult circumstances, in an extremely
8 dangerous city. And that's the only comment I can make about this.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, thank you.
10 Can this document be admitted into evidence? And then I would
11 like to call up the next document. Now, that would be a film. We are
12 going to see how the Italians managed in the same situation that you were
13 in and how they reported.
14 Could the previous document be admitted now?
15 JUDGE KWON: That will be Exhibit D204.
16 THE REGISTRAR: That's correct, Your Honour.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the transcript for this film
18 please be given to the witness and to others.
19 This film speaks about the very same event, at the same time, and
20 we have a transcript here. And we're going to hear it in Italian, and we
21 will see there are subtitles in Serbian.
22 JUDGE KWON: If you -- just a second. If you have the
23 transcript, the Judges should have them as well.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, you should have received
25 them. I was hoping that you had received them.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: There is no one
2 interpreting from Italian into English, but we do have the transcript,
3 which we can read out. However, it is not our interpretation.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We can have it placed on the ELMO,
5 if you wish.
6 JUDGE KWON: I don't think we can view two things at the same
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You can have my copy.
9 JUDGE KWON: I have no doubt that Judge Lattanzi could understand
11 [Video-clip played]
12 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Sarajevo is in shock because the
13 fall of the Otes neighbourhood after four days of siege. It is in the
14 hands of the Serbs. This morning, our television news crew who had been
15 involved in the clashes were trying to enter the city. Our producer has
16 been wounded, the organiser, Roberto Canavicco [phoen]. But we should
17 have right now on telephone live broadcast our reporter. Can you hear
19 "Yes, I'm here.
20 "So, first of all, how is Canavicco?
21 "Canavicco has been by a rifle, a machine gun in his left arm.
22 The arm has been perforated, and the bullet has stopped in the dorsal
23 part. It is still inside the wound. He has been provisionally treated
24 by a Serb first aid team, and we are trying to carry him to let him reach
1 "But where are you right now? You are no longer in Sarajevo
2 "We are outside of the centre, outside the zone controlled by the
4 "Listen, Demondino [phoen], what is the situation that you found
5 during these days in Sarajevo
6 "A really dramatic one. We were trying to reach Otes. We were
7 leaving the Serb zone in order to reach Sarajevo, and we found ourselves
8 in the middle of a real battle. At least about ten shots hit our two
9 vehicles, a small coach and a car, which penetrated glass and the
10 external structure. It was bad luck. Unfortunately, what has happened,
11 that they have -- and wounded our Roberto Canavicco."
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Do you agree, Mr. van Lynden, that the Italian reporter is
15 reporting about fierce fighting in this locality of Otes? We saw that it
16 was the Muslims who started the offensive, and the Serbs responded by a
18 A. According to the earlier document that you showed. I have seen
19 no other proof that it was the Bosnians who did the original attack, nor
20 does it say so in this report by the Italian correspondent.
21 In all honesty, I don't know who began that particular engagement
22 at Otes at the beginning of December 1992. There was heavy fighting
23 there. We reported that as well, and we reported that it had fallen into
24 the hands or under the control of the Bosnian Serb forces, which appears
25 to be correct. They -- from what I understand, the Italian reporters
1 were on your side of the front-lines and trying to reach Sarajevo
2 don't know precisely where they were, and then seemed to be caught in the
3 middle of a battle between the two sides when the producer was hit by a
4 bullet in the arm, which could have been fired, as far as I can gather,
5 from either side. But that's all I gather from this report.
6 Q. However, in your report which we showed, what was stated was that
7 Otes fell into Serb hands four days after the Serbs had launched an
8 offensive, and that harmed us, and it's not true; right?
9 A. We reported on the basis of the information that we were given by
10 the United Nations forces in Sarajevo
11 independent source of information that we had to go on at that moment in
13 Q. Can you please be a bit more specific. Who was it that gave you
14 that information?
15 A. I don't remember precisely who that was, but we would go to the
16 UN headquarters and to speak there with one of the spokesmen. But it may
17 have been on that occasion that we spoke to a military officer, but I
18 don't -- I can't recall. We were there for two months. To remember
19 every single conversation and whom gave us that information 18 years
20 later, I'm sorry, I don't know the precise detail. But I recall that we
21 went to the UN, because we did so on a daily basis, to get briefed by
22 them as to what their information was. The UN had a lot more people
23 there. We were on our own.
24 Q. Do you believe that the commander of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps
25 would dare to send a false report to the Main Staff and to
1 General Mladic? Do you think that an officer would dare do that kind of
2 thing? And why would he, anyway? What would be his motive to report in
3 a secret report, which is not for the newspapers, that it was them, not
5 JUDGE KWON: I don't think it is for the witness to comment on
7 THE WITNESS: I absolutely cannot comment on the actions of a
8 Serb commander. That's an impossibility for me.
9 Can we -- is it possible to switch the screen back, and then
10 I can see --
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 As soon as we get the UNPROFOR report -- well, that's certainly
13 going to be in the UN report, the weekly or the monthly one or the daily
15 Can this film be admitted, along with the transcript.
16 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D205. And I
18 also have a correction to the transcript for 65 ter 11557. It was
19 earlier announced that it would be P737 [sic], but, in fact, it will be
20 Exhibit D206. Thank you.
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 1D01207, please.
24 While we are waiting for that document, may I inform you that
25 that that is Zlatko Lagumdzjia's unit, the 1st Motorised Brigade in
2 the successor to the League of Communists of Yugoslavia. Truth to tell,
3 he did not sign the document. Someone signed for him, on his behalf.
4 But just have a look at this. Have a look at what the order is and what
5 the assignment involved is.
6 Do we have the document? Yes, we do.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Now, we can see Zlatko Lagumdzija here, but we can also see that
9 it's somebody else's signature. Nevertheless, it is his unit.
10 Can we have page 2 now. 31st of December, 1992. Now let us move
11 on to where it says "Task."
12 "Task. Occupy region to the right. Transit to the left, most by
13 Electroprivreda. Attack to be carried out through the direction of
14 11 Blue, south side of the Grbavica Stadium, palm, shopping, and
15 'strojerad', four big skyscrapers, with the goal to crush the enemy on
16 the given axes and to occupy important buildings."
17 Now, on page 3:
18 "Fire support. Artillery support will be given in depth of the
19 enemy forces."
20 Then further on page 4 -- or, rather, the next page in English:
21 "Morale." And then the last bit in "Morale," morale is high and so on:
22 "Taking into account that it would be impossible to occupy such a
23 fortified settlement without destruction and burning of buildings, which
24 at the same time represent strongholds, everything should be destroyed
25 and torched so that the operation could be successfully executed.
1 Because of their well-known arrogance, none of the captured should be
2 trusted, and especially the ones who carry any kind of weapon."
3 Mr. van Lynden, the order is to destroy and torch everything.
4 And as for those who are taken prisoner, they should not be trusted,
5 especially not those who have weapons. So they are going to take
6 prisoner -- as prisoners those who do not have weapons. And what does
7 that mean, "do not trust"? That means liquidate. What else?
8 So are you aware of this manner of treatment by the Muslim army?
9 A. I have never seen this document before, and I am not aware of it,
10 and I cannot comment on it.
11 Q. But you accept that this is a Muslim document? These are
12 documents of their army; right?
13 A. I don't know. How am I meant to know? I'm not an expert on
14 these documents.
15 JUDGE KWON: Dr. Karadzic, can you see page 2 of the original of
16 this document?
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Certainly. Well, it doesn't depend
18 on me. In the Serbian language, it is number 2, "Task." The first
19 paragraph, number 1, is information about us, and we are the enemy. So
20 it says "Serb forces," enemy; right?
21 JUDGE KWON: I'm noticing the typography or letters. It's quite
22 different when we come to number 2. Can you explain why it is so.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is why: Because they became
24 more pronounced because they had been highlighted probably using a yellow
25 highlighter. The font is the same. However, the contrast is different,
1 and that can only be due to highlighting. However, the OTP obtained
2 this. They got it from the Muslim army, seized it. It's not our
4 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Continue your cross-examination.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 Q. As a reporter from the spot, you should have noticed the
7 destruction of Raca, Grbavica, other Serb neighbourhoods, and also you
8 should have been aware of the street fighting for each and every
9 building. Did you know about that?
10 A. Well, there were clear signals in Sarajevo that build -- that
11 streets had been fought to and that there were front-lines and that these
12 were pockmarked. When I was taken to Grbavica by your forces in
13 September 1992 and again in February 1994, of course there were signs
14 there. In my personal opinion, I would say that the damage there was
15 much more limited than it was on the other side of the front-lines, but
16 that is a personal opinion. But that I was aware of fighting, yes. But
17 this document, Mr. Karadzic, I cannot comment on a document of that sort.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 Can this document be admitted?
20 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nicholls?
21 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, this one I think I would object to.
22 The witness has not been able to comment on it, add to it. It's a -- as
23 Your Honours noted, it's very strange the way the document appears. But,
24 really, this is not the appropriate witness for this document to be put
25 through. He should -- I understand your Court's recent -- the Court's
1 recent guide-lines, but I think under those guide-lines this document
2 falls outside.
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we agree with you, Mr. Nicholls. The witness
4 was not able to comment anything about this document, and at this moment
5 we are not fully satisfied as to the foundation of this document. So we
6 will not admit it. That does not necessarily mean that you can't tender
7 it through another witness who can give evidence as to its foundation.
8 Let's move on to another topic.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Let me just say
10 something very briefly.
11 When there is yellow highlighting on a text, and then if that
12 text is photocopied, then the letters seem different. This is a document
13 that we got from the EDS
14 Could I now have another document --
15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not catch the number.
16 JUDGE KWON: Could you repeat the number again.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 11874, Prosecution number 11874.
18 Q. In all fairness, this is not your report, but it's a report by
19 your colleague from Belgrade
20 going on in Sarajevo
21 "After Sarajevo
22 Serb forces in the two-month Bosnian civil war, local television
23 yesterday broadcast intercepted radio messages from a Serbian general
24 encouraging his officers to bombard the city without mercy."
25 [Interpretation] See, that is our objection. Many correspondents
1 sat far away from where the action was, and then they were buying the
2 stories told by the other side.
3 Now, Mr. van Lynden, tell us -- this is this well-known intercept
4 of Mladic's alleged order.
5 And now I would like to have the 65 ter number 30824. We can
6 have the transcript or we can listen. I think that the transcript would
7 be faster. So then we are going to have both documents admitted
9 This happened on the 30th of May; whereas on the 29th of May, you
10 were already there by then, there is this conversation between
11 Ratko Mladic and Potpara, and then between Ratko Mladic and Varos. I can
12 inform you of the following: These are officers who are encircled in the
13 Marsal Tito Barracks. The barracks is completely under siege by the
14 Muslim forces at that point in time.
15 Right. Potpara, line 5 -- is it line 5? Potpara:
16 "It is calm at the moment, but there is frequent activity from
17 1700 hours until 2000 hours, and six shells fell. A cadet was slightly
18 wounded, injured."
19 That is what Potpara is reporting to Mladic. And then Mladic, a
20 few lines down, says:
21 "Is there an operation going on?"
22 And Potpara says: "Not right now. It is quiet.
23 "Mladic: Be very cautious. They want to provoke --"
24 And then a few lines further down:
25 "Ratko Mladic: Look, by attacks against us, they want to provoke
1 operating or acting in town."
2 I think that the English page should be moved on to page 2, the
3 English version.
4 Potpara says: "Yes, all right."
5 And then Ratko Mladic says: "Let the people know about that."
6 Now we can move on to the next page in both the Serbian and
7 English versions.
8 Potpara says: "Yes."
9 And then Ratko Mladic says: "Be extremely cautious and
11 And then some 10 lines further, Ratko Mladic says:
12 "And, secondly, they are trying, by attacking the barracks and
13 the units, they are trying to provoke our activities and our opening fire
14 on the town."
15 This is already his conversation with Baros.
16 And then Baros says: "Yes."
17 In English, it should be on the next page, and in Serbian as
18 well. The next page, please. Both in the English and Serbian, please,
19 let's have the next page.
20 Ratko Mladic says:
21 "So there you go. You should prepare, and do not allow what
22 happened to Jusuf Djonlic happen to you and all that shame."
23 Baros says: "Yes."
24 And then Mladic says:
25 "We left all our weaponry behind there, all the heavy weapons,
1 and yet they attacked our columns. And as for you, they would massacre
2 you. Don't you worry. You will all manage to pull out. You are holding
3 out. There will not be any problem."
4 And then Baros says: "Very well."
5 And then further down, Mladic says:
6 "Don't you get carried away. Don't have illusions. We left all
7 the weapons back at the Jusuf Djonlic Barracks. We left it behind."
8 "Yes, yes."
9 Next page in English, please.
10 Ratko Mladic says:
11 "If they're ready to implement the plan, they already received
12 the first portion of all the weapons that belong to these areas, these
13 four municipalities."
14 So he's informing that the Muslims had received what belonged to
16 And then Potpara says: "Uh-huh, uh-huh, yes."
17 And then Ratko Mladic goes on to say:
18 "They should have evacuated the Viktor Bubanj Barracks as well
19 peacefully before the Djonlic Barracks."
20 And then Potpara is confirming and saying: "Yes."
21 And then let's have the next pages, please, in English.
22 Toward the bottom, the portion where Ratko Mladic says: "I, too,
23 am of the same opinion."
24 Potpara was saying that he didn't want to risk his men's lives.
25 And Mladic then says:
1 "Well, it is also my position. If they want peace, they have it.
2 And I ordered last night, as soon as I arrived, there was this mass -- or
3 large-scale attack both against the units and against you. There was all
4 this firing, and I managed to set people at peace there and put
5 everything under control to stop the fire. As for what they're producing
6 now, they probably have some pantomime performers or people who can
7 successfully imitate the voices of everyone's, your voice and my voice
8 and everyone else's."
9 And then Ratko Mladic says:
10 "It seems like they're making a circus out of everything there,
11 and they're deluding their people, and it is not true that I gave any
12 such orders."
13 And then again Ratko Mladic:
14 "So let them deceive and delude their people. You are to pass on
15 this information to every single soldier. Do not mess around under any
16 circumstances. Do not risk your lives, because nobody has a life to
17 spare. We will not shell the town unless they violate the agreement and
18 unless they put you in danger. But you have to be very careful. Do not
19 trust them one bit."
20 So here is this intercept, Mr. van Lynden. Can we conclude,
21 based on this intercept, that General Mladic ordered that the old town,
22 the old part of town, be fired upon, as it was reported in the Western
24 A. I was not aware of the radio intercept, I didn't report on it.
25 Marcus Tanner of "The Independent" did. This is the first time I see
1 this document, and I can make no further comments on it.
2 Q. But can we see from this intercept that the night before there
3 was a large-scale attack -- a major attack on the Marsal Tito Barracks
4 and that even a cadet was injured? And you could have reported on that.
5 This was on the 29th of May, when you were already there; right?
6 A. On entering Sarajevo
7 we, indeed, went to the former military hospital and filmed the cadet who
8 was being taken care of, who had been wounded in the Marsal Tito
9 Barracks. And that was in either my first or second report that I sent
10 from Sarajevo
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 Could we now have this transcript -- this intercept admitted into
13 evidence, 30824? That's the OTP 65 ter number.
14 JUDGE KWON: How about "The Independent" press report?
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We don't really care about that.
16 We're not interested.
17 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nicholls.
18 MR. NICHOLLS: No objection to the intercept.
19 If it helps my friends, the story that Mr. van Lynden referred to
20 about the interview of the soldier who was wounded in the barracks is
21 40264B, I believe, is the 65 ter number for that story, which I did not
23 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. The intercept is admitted.
24 Just a second. Let me confer with my colleagues.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber is of the opinion to admit the intercept
2 in a comprehensive and strict -- following this strict principle, so we
3 rather defer the decision to admit any intercept to a later stage, until
4 we set out our rule. So on that basis, we'll mark that intercept for
5 identification, pending future decisions as to the intercept.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be MFI D207.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may say what our position is.
8 It is the following: All the intercepts before the war broke out, where
9 the Muslim authorities intercepted the conversations of Serb authorities,
10 are questionable, although they may be of assistance. But it really
11 proves how unfair and unlawful the Muslim authorities were, rather than
12 proofing anything against us, which is quite different from the situation
13 where war has broken out, where both sides are entitled to intercept the
14 other side's conversations.
15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not catch the number.
16 JUDGE KWON: What is your next number?
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D01128.
18 While we are waiting for that document to come up, let me tell
19 you what it's about.
20 It's on the 23rd of April, 1992, a little before your arrival,
21 but this is still about the JNA. It is one of their reports on the
22 events in Sarajevo
23 reporting. The document reads "Military Secret for Internal Use,"
24 information sent to the command for files, and then the following
1 "The political and security situation in the area of
2 responsibility of the 2nd Military District," which means in the area of
3 responsibility of the 13th Corps and the 38th Division, "is getting
4 worse, which is leading to a full-fledged escalation into
5 wartime conflict in the area of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
6 "Military installations are especially vulnerable, the military
7 industry and depots, and other installations and check-points of commands
8 and units. The organisers of those attacks are: the Republican Staff of
9 Territorial Defence and the BH MUP, Ministry of the Interior. And it is
10 being implemented by paramilitary formations of the SDA and HDZ."
11 And then two paragraphs below, it says:
12 "On the 17th and 18th of April of 1992, the Green Berets and the
13 MUP special forces, the BH MUP special forces, launched an attack on the
14 Pretis factory in Vogosca," which was a military factory, among others --
15 other things. And it says:
16 "In the course of the night, from 3.00 to 5.00 a.m.
17 5 attackers were killed, 20 wounded, and 9 taken prisoner, they managed
18 to take seven trucks, too, with ammunition, steal 100 Golf vehicles used
19 by Green Berets. Through a speedy intervention by JNA units, a
20 large-scale disaster was prevented.
21 "On the 18th and 19th of April, 1992, the Green Berets organised
22 the capturing of the military industry Igman at Konjic, which was cut
23 off," the phone lines were cut off as well, "in order to prevent military
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Did you know of -- were you aware of attacks of this type against
2 the JNA, while it was still the legal armed force in that area?
3 A. In April 1992, I was not in Bosnia
4 events documented in this document, which I have also not ever seen
6 Q. However, when you were to go to an area from which you were to
7 report, do you try to obtain information as to the developments there? I
8 assume that you knew where you were going, that you knew what was going
9 on. Did you try and get any information about the area where you were
10 going to report from?
11 A. Of course. One gets as much information as possible from those
12 who are there at the time. And on arrival in Sarajevo, the first place I
13 went to was the UN headquarters to get a briefing from them as to the
14 situation at that time. But as to the information in this document
15 before us now, I am not aware of that. I may have heard something about
16 it when I was still in London
17 Q. Did you get some information from your colleagues, the local
18 reporters, the people who were reporters for TV Sarajevo?
19 A. I do not remember visiting TV Sarajevo during my very first visit
20 to Sarajevo
21 anything that came from the press of either side who were involved in the
22 actual war. My background has also told me that if I haven't seen
23 something myself, if I hear something from another reporter, I also have
24 to deal with that carefully, unless it is a reporter I know very, very
25 well and know his work.
1 So to answer your question about TV Sarajevo, yes, we did go
2 there later during 1992, we did speak to people there, but any
3 information that we were given by them we handled with a great deal of
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 Could we now see the second page of this document, please. And,
7 again, let me just say that this is the JNA reporting to their superiors
8 on the events in Sarajevo
9 The last paragraph:
10 "In the building of TV Sarajevo, there is a lot of
11 dissatisfaction among the journalists because of the constant presence of
12 armed paramilitary units who are on the premises of the TV, and for that
13 reason the reports are one-sided and biased because they are submitted
14 under the threat of arms."
15 And as we can see from other documents as well, which I will
16 show, the Green Berets had taken up these premises even before the
17 conflict broke out.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].
19 Q. Did you know that these premises were under the control of the
20 Green Berets, in other words, of paramilitary units?
21 A. When I first went to TV Sarajevo, there were guards, as there are
22 at any television station in the world. I didn't see paramilitary units,
23 as you described them, there on any visits that I went to TV Sarajevo.
24 That may have happened beforehand, as is indicated in this document. I
25 wasn't there, so I cannot verify that document.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 I would like to tender this document.
3 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nicholls.
4 MR. NICHOLLS: I don't object, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE KWON: The Bench will confer.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 MR. NICHOLLS: Sorry, Your Honours, to interrupt, but I believe
8 there's no translation. So, in any event, it would be marked --
9 JUDGE KWON: The witness was not able to comment on anything.
10 And as such, we have some doubt as to the probative value of this
11 document. As such, we will not admit it.
12 Mr. Karadzic, this one, as well as the previous one, is a kind of
13 example you are wasting your time. You can put it simply to the witness,
14 instead of reading out everything.
15 I'm noting the time, but given the logistical problem, I'm
16 compelled to ask: How much longer do you have? I'm asking this question
17 given the -- considering the relevance of your questions that are being
18 put to the witness.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, you see, this is our
20 position: I believe we still have a session today and a session
21 tomorrow, and I believe we will ask for Mr. van Lynden to be recalled one
22 more time. But why am I saying this? I am trying to put this forward
23 because Mr. van Lynden and all other Western media actually portrayed the
24 situation in Sarajevo
25 configuration of the terrain did not -- were not consistent. All these
1 documents, including the documents from secret intelligence sources,
2 actually show that this was biased informing, or at least not
3 sufficiently informed reporting.
4 JUDGE KWON: It's for you, how to present your case and how to
5 conduct your cross-examination. But on my part, I don't see the point of
6 putting things when -- that took place before the witness arrived in
9 Let's move on.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now please have 1D01224.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. And while we wait for it to appear, Mr. van Lynden, let me ask
13 you this: You interviewed General Juka Prazina, and you were in his
14 headquarters, and you assessed, quite correctly, that this was a mere
15 criminal. And now I would like to show you what the Ministry of Defence,
16 the Muslim forces, the BH government forces, is reporting on the 1st of
17 June, 1992, the time when you were already there, and how they are
18 portraying Juka Prazina.
19 Now, let's see paragraph 2, where it says:
20 "In this period, too, I contacted the military police reserve
21 unit, Stela, that was located in the sports hall at Alipasina Polje and
22 was under the command of Juka Prazina." "The reserve military police,"
23 so this is not -- they are not saying paramilitary forces.
24 A state agency under the command of a well-known criminal? Would
25 you agree with me?
1 A. During my time, firstly, when I interviewed and saw
2 Jusuf Prazina, he never told me he was a general, nor, as I recall, did
3 he say that he was -- it was a police unit. He and his men simply called
4 themselves defenders of Sarajevo
5 I pointed out yesterday, in my report I made clear that this was a man
6 with a criminal record. There is nothing further that I can say about
7 this. And, again, this is a report that I've never seen before.
8 Q. Thank you. This is a document from the Ministry of Defence of
9 Bosnia and Herzegovina, Alija Izetbegovic's ministry.
10 A. But if they don't show it to me, how am I meant to comment on it?
11 Q. Thank you. The next paragraph reads -- that's where it is being
12 reported as follows:
13 "I claim that the orders of the Territorial Defence Staff of BiH,
14 regarding the entering and searching of flats, are still being breached.
15 Young and inexperienced people are sent to do this, and there are cases
16 where items which are not subject to confiscation were found and taken
17 from the people, which contributes to the dissatisfaction among the
18 citizens and honest people."
19 And then on the next page, but here it's on the same page in
20 English; in the B/C/S, it should be on the next page:
21 "I claimed again with full responsibility that a
22 not-insignificant number of shells that landed on this territory from the
23 aggressor's positions, that is, from the Lukavica Road positions and the
24 home from blind children from Nedzarici, and that a large number of
25 apartments and buildings were hit and some people injured and killed
1 because of these youngsters who opened fire and provoked the
2 aggressors -- unprovoked, even when there was no need for that, since no
3 harm could be done to their manpower or equipment from such a distance.
4 This uncontrolled shooting from rifles had always provoked a response
5 with shells," and so on.
6 And then further down, it says:
7 "One more example, the freshest one that I could give to you as a
8 proof of this argument: Last night, around 2200 hours, Juka's guys
9 installed a PAM on a confiscated Pinzgauer, and yesterday, in broad
10 daylight, they opened fire towards Nedzarici while a large number of
11 people were walking around in that settlement, men, women, and children.
12 And then they repeated this again around 2200 hours, targeting the crew
13 of the tanks on Mojmilo Hill, on which occasion a machine-gun opened fire
14 from a transporter, and then seven or eight shells were launched from the
15 Zavnobih Square on the Lukavica Road, on which occasion there was some
16 material damage, and thousands of people had to seek shelter in their
18 Does this now give you a full picture of events in Sarajevo
19 early June 1992, where Juka Prazina and his men, as this reporter gently
20 describes them, where his men are causing harm to both sides?
21 A. No, I would certainly not describe this as a full picture of
22 events in Sarajevo
23 was not aware of this, nor was I told of what was happening in that one
24 particular area. I was in Sarajevo
25 Jusuf Prazina, I met a number of his men. I didn't meet any boys. But I
1 can't say to their level of training. That was not something -- and I
2 was never taken by them into actual positions where they were shooting.
3 I did not ever witness that, so I cannot confirm or deny this statement.
4 My comment may well be true, but I would not say that this was the full
5 picture of Sarajevo
7 Q. Perhaps this was a misinterpretation. I said: Does this
8 complete your picture of Sarajevo
9 says about their general? Although I believe you're right, he was not a
10 general yet at this time.
11 I would like to tender this ministry document now.
12 A. No, this does not complete my picture of Sarajevo, to answer your
13 question. And I'm sure there are still many things that I would need to
14 learn to complete my picture of Sarajevo
15 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nicholls.
16 MR. NICHOLLS: I don't object.
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes. That will be admitted. But I note that we
18 don't have full translation, so we'll wait -- we'll mark it for
19 identification until we have full translation.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be MFI D208.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I just put one more question.
22 Could we please have 1D00129 on the screens.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. And while we wait for it, Mr. van Lynden, let me tell you the
25 following: This is an initiative to -- 1D01129. So an initiative and a
1 proposal to promote Mr. Adnan Solakovic and to confer a rank upon him.
2 This is on the 11th of September, 1992, while you were there.
3 Have we -- do we have it before us? Yes, here we have it.
4 So it says here:
5 "I propose," midway, "that Prazina Edhem - Juka, a member of the
6 Main Staff of the armed forces of the RBiH and commander of the special
7 units of the armed forces of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, be
8 promoted to the rank of general."
9 And then on the next page it says his units in Sarajevo have
10 grown into an imposing brigade. And then after that, Juka's visions of
11 formations, it says the result of this is reflected also in the fact that
12 Juka's visions of formations have got the honourable name and task of
13 special units of the Armed Forces of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
14 And then next, under 3 -- in Serbian, it's page 3 because --
15 page 3 in Serbian:
16 "Because of this patriotic display of war skills, Juka, as the
17 only one of all the war leaders who has grown from the popular
18 resistance, is hereby promoted by the Presidency of the RBiH for member
19 of the Main Staff of the RBiH armed forces and commander of special
20 units. From all this, we see that Juka Prazina personally contributed to
21 the preparation, organisation, managing, and commanding of units of the
22 armed forces."
23 And then signed by Adnan Solakovic.
24 And then, pursuant to this proposal, he was -- he was promoted to
25 the rank of general.
1 Does this tell you anything about who our enemy was,
2 Mr. van Lynden, who was on the other side?
3 A. May I firstly point out that the date at the top of this document
4 in English does not match the date of the top of the document in
5 Serbo-Croat. One document is marking "September," this one says it is
7 Pursuant to your first point, that I was there: I was, in
8 September 1992
9 document. I have not seen this document before. And as I have already
10 stated, I was unaware that Jusuf Prazina was promoted to the rank of
11 general. I was never told that.
12 After the -- my visit in the summer of 1992 to Sarajevo, I never
13 saw him again. I believe he left Sarajevo
14 finally found dead in Belgium
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 I apologise. The translation has the wrong date. The correct
17 date is in the Serbian version. That was on the 11th of September.
18 Now, even before the 11th of September, Juka Prazina was a member
19 of the Main Staff of the Armed Forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina. He was a
20 member of the Main Staff, a criminal who killed civilians, threw them out
21 of apartment building windows, seized their apartments, and who knows
22 what else he did.
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
24 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm going to object on the basis now of relevance.
25 The marginal, almost zero, relevance of this document and this topic, I
1 would say, has been exhausted. It is now reaching the point where it is
2 much more cumulative and time-wasting than probative. The witness --
3 right from the beginning Mr. Van Lynden said that Juka Prazina was a
4 criminal, and that that's how he reported it. And Mr. Karadzic now
5 continues to talk and talk and show documents saying that Mr. Prazina is
6 a criminal. It's not something contested by the witness. And the
7 witness has made it unclear that he is unable to speak to these
8 documents. And the last one, the last question, Does this tell you about
9 our enemy -- who our enemy was? Is a pointless question for this
10 witness. It does not rise out of the direct. Thank you.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I, before you decide,
12 Your Excellencies?
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I'm not talking about
15 Juka Prazina here at all. Juka Prazina is a symptom [realtime transcript
16 read in error "similar to me"]. I'm talking about the Presidency that
17 appointed him to the Main Staff of the armed forces of the Republic of
18 Bosnia and Herzegovina, knowing full well who he was. We are going to
19 show a lot of documents that illustrate that they were aware of who he
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes. It is for you to bring that evidence, but it
22 is not for the witness to prove -- to make a comment upon those
23 documents. That's why we deem it -- have a doubt as to the relevance of
24 the document.
25 The Bench will confer.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just tell the court reporter
2 that I did not say that Juka Prazina was similar to me. I said that he
3 was a symptom.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just say something, what the
6 point is, before you tell us what your decision is, why we are doing all
7 of this? May I? Is it all right?
8 JUDGE KWON: This is our view, Mr. Karadzic: While we do not
9 agree with Mr. Nicholls' observation that your question should arise out
10 of the direct -- I'm not sure whether you said that or not, but we are of
11 the view that you exhausted the topic with the witness. So the Chamber
12 tells you to move on to your next topic.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I am going to move on.
14 However, I would just like to draw your attention to the
15 following: I would like to draw the attention of the Trial Chamber to
16 this, and all the other participants. I'm talking here about a state
17 that is not a state, that asked us to be subjugated to a state and
18 social-political system in which Juka Prazina was a general.
19 JUDGE KWON: You'll have ample opportunity to make your
20 submission. This is time for you to ask questions to the witness. Do
21 not waste your time.
22 I'm noting the time. We'll take a break for 25 minutes.
23 --- Recess taken at 5.31 p.m.
24 --- On resuming at 5.58 p.m.
25 JUDGE KWON: I wanted to let the parties know that we have
1 decided to sit from 8.30 tomorrow morning to have a bit more time, and I
2 appreciate the understanding of the staff. Thank you very much.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The Defence is also grateful,
4 because we do need time, indeed. Thank you.
5 Could I now have 1D01223. This is Rasim Delic's book, and the
6 title is "At the Helm of the Army in War and in Peace." Thank you.
7 Page 100, please, and 101. Actually, I think they're together.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Mr. van Lynden, do you know who held Igman from the beginning
10 until the end? This part above Hrasnica, who held that area?
11 A. The Bosnian Army.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Page 100 in the book.
13 So it is 100 and 101, so it's the next page.
14 No, this is 200 and 201, and I asked for 100 and 101.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Up until then, can I give you a bit of information. We saw that
17 during the stage it was the Territorial Defence, we heard what
18 Sefer Halilovic said what was in the area of Sarajevo. By now, it has
19 already become the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina; it's no longer the
20 Territorial Defence.
21 And here on page 100, Mr. -- well, the late Rasim Delic now says
22 there are 12 brigades in town. We are going to find that now.
23 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, I don't think it's necessary to read
24 out all the portions. Put the crux of the content you'd like to put to
25 the witness, and put it, and hear him what he says.
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. On page 100, there is information about 12 brigades in the city
3 of Sarajevo
4 I'll read it out. It's from the middle here, the middle of the
5 first paragraph on page 100. In this operation, he counted on the
6 engagement of the three tactical groups, Visoko, Igman, and Drina,
7 involving about 10.000 soldiers and 12 brigades from the city, itself,
8 that would be engaged from the inside. Then there is the police, in
9 addition to that, and the Croatian Brigade Herceg Stjepan, in addition to
10 all of that.
11 Do you accept that, that they had 12 brigades in the city of
13 A. This is the first time I have seen the book of Rasim Delic. I
14 didn't even know he had written the book, Your Honours. I don't know
15 that. He writes that. I don't know that, nor do I know if this is a
16 specific moment of time. I don't know what year we're talking about.
17 Nor does it seem to say, yes, 10.000 men. I see here "12 brigades." I
18 don't know what a brigade was within the Bosnian Army, how many men that
20 Q. Well, it wasn't exactly 5.000, but it was three to five
21 battalions, let me tell you, consisting of 500 men respectively. So it
22 goes up to about 2500, but never mind. If you don't know about it, let's
23 move on.
24 Do you know that from Igman, there was very heavy fire that fell
25 on Sarajevo
1 fire went into other areas as well. Anyway, do you know that artillery
2 fire continued against Sarajevo
3 A. I never personally witnessed artillery fire from Mount Igman
5 that we were there, if there was fire from Mount Igman, it would have
6 been practically impossible for us to film, because it's way out to the
7 west from the position that we had.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation]
10 Could we have page 101 back. I would just like to read a small
11 passage so that you see how much fire was coming from Igman. So it's
12 towards the bottom of the second page.
13 For example, Jusuf Prazina fired from Igman during the course of
14 one day only, about 300 projectiles, 130 millimetres. That's a cannon,
15 isn't it - against enemy facilities that could be targeted with
16 82-millimetre mortars. Also, during two or three days only, several
17 thousand 120-millimetre shells were fired from Igman, twice as many as
18 could have been provided to other army units, and so on.
19 So Rasim Delic is criticising the excessive use of artillery and
20 mortar ammunition from Igman against Serb Sarajevo. How is it that the
21 world public was not aware of that, with that many correspondents in
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
24 MR. NICHOLLS: No objection, Your Honour, but obviously I can't
25 read this. I wonder if there is a date or time-frame to help the
1 witness -- what the witness was asked about. We don't know whether
2 this has -- when this is being spoken of.
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes, but it's impossible to find out without
5 THE WITNESS: Well, if I can help, the only thing I can see is
6 the 24th of "Octobra," which I imagine is the 24th of October, is
7 mentioned just ahead of those projectiles. But Mr. Karadzic can correct
8 me if I'm wrong.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, and further down it says
10 the 14th of December, so it was already the second half of the year;
11 1992, that is.
12 JUDGE KWON: So with that, can you answer the question,
13 Mr. van Lynden?
14 THE WITNESS: One moment, Your Honour. Let me just go back to
16 I was not aware of Mr. Delic criticising the excessive use of
17 artillery, because he did not tell us. I did not meet General Delic
18 until the following year, or even further, and right at the beginning of
19 1994, so I am not aware of Bosnian Army commanders criticising the
20 excessive use of artillery and mortar ammunition from Mount Igman
21 Serb Sarajevo
22 correspondents at that time in Sarajevo
23 October; I was there in December - of a statement from the Bosnian Army
24 command criticising the artillery or the use of artillery from
25 Mount Igman
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. My point here is the 300 projectiles coming from Howitzers and
3 several 120-millimetre shells, the point is not the fact that they regret
4 excessive use of ammunition, but the fact that Serb lives are lost in the
5 process. And my objection is: Why does the international public opinion
6 not know about that, with all of you being there in Sarajevo? However,
7 the fact remains that that was not known of, and this Tribunal does not
8 know about it or has not known about it until now.
9 So, anyway, let's move on. Page 104.
10 A. Wait a second. Mr. Karadzic, you asked the question in relation
11 to the criticism of Mr. Delic. We were not aware of the criticism of
12 Mr. Delic. I answered your question. That's the question you asked. If
13 you're asking a separate question, why did we not report that? We
14 reported that there was fire going in both directions. I do not recall
15 specifically these events of the 300 shells that you -- that Mr. Delic
16 writes about.
17 Q. Thank you. I said that thanks to that criticism from their own
18 sources, we managed to get information again from their own sources.
19 So we're going to leave this book aside now. Could this page be
20 admitted into evidence?
21 Actually, I wanted to ask you whether you knew that the Muslim
22 army had constant relations with Iran
23 about that? Did you inform the international public about that?
24 A. I did not report, because I was not aware of any co-operation
25 between the Bosnian Army and Iran
1 Q. All right. We provided information about that, but we were not
2 being taken seriously.
3 We are going to abandon the subject, because Mr. van Lynden
4 doesn't know about this. 1D01180 is what I would like to have now.
6 While we're waiting for that, let me inform you this is the 6th
7 of December, 1992. So you should see how accurate these reports are of
8 the Sarajevo
9 We haven't got a translation yet, so I'm going to read this out.
10 There's a hard copy, if somebody wants one, but I can read it out.
11 The 6th of December, 1992:
12 "Throughout the day, from 2.00 until 1700 hours, the enemy fired
13 from artillery pieces from Igman and Hrasnica against Ilidza, Hadzici,
14 Vojkovici, Lukavica, the Slobodan Princip Seljo Barracks, and positions
15 of the 1st and 2nd Sarajevo
16 great deal of material damage was inflicted."
17 And then the last paragraph, number 7:
18 "Two fighters were killed and nine wounded, two of them
19 seriously. At Ilidza, 15 women and children were wounded."
20 Again, there's a reference to 300 shells, just like the Muslim
21 commander, Delic. However, this man is reporting about losses too.
22 Fifteen women and children, Serb women and children, at Ilidza, do they
23 merit the attention of international media? On the 5th, you reported
24 about Otes, and this is on the 6th of December.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. They are worthy of the attention of the international public;
2 right? Nevertheless, this was not broadcast.
3 A. First, I do not remember being informed of that. I was in the
4 Bosnian Army-controlled part of Sarajevo
5 longer -- I would no longer have been able to cross over to Ilidza, as I
6 had in June 1992. By that time, that would have been much more
7 complicated. But nor do I remember being informed by this either from
9 government, or finding this out -- this information in Sarajevo. It
10 happened on the other side of the front-lines. While we were on one side
11 of the front-lines, we report what we know of there. But certainly if I
12 had been in Ilidza, yes, it absolutely would have merited reporting.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 Can this document be admitted?
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes?
16 MR. NICHOLLS: I would object, Your Honour. The witness hasn't
17 been able to speak to it at all. The witness has made clear that he
18 can't comment about it, that he was in the center of Sarajevo, that he
19 wasn't informed about this incident, that he wasn't taken there, and that
20 he couldn't have been there at that time.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE KWON: The same rule will apply. The witness was not in
23 the position to comment on this document at all. On that basis, we do
24 not admit this through this witness.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 Can I have 1D1222. Briefly, just one paragraph from this
2 document, instructions as to how journalists should be treated, as well
3 as UNPROFOR personnel. The 12th of September, 1992, that is the date.
4 Page 3 of that document, item 18. Page 3, item 18, General Galic and
5 Colonel Krsmanovic. General Galic:
6 "Relation with members of UNPROFOR foreign journalists must be as
7 correct and as civilised as can be and enable them to see our good sides
8 and present it to our advantage."
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. If I tell you that foreign correspondents had no interest at all
11 in the Serb side of the story, what do you say to that?
12 A. That you're talking utter nonsense. We went to Pale. We asked
13 to work there. We went there in September 1992 and were, to a degree,
14 capable of working.
15 And in relation to the previous document, Mr. Karadzic, if you
16 could stop talking to your colleague for a second, when we were there in
17 September, we were taken to a front-line position outside Hadzici, a
18 Serb-held position. It came under fire. We filmed it and we reported
19 it. If you are taken there, we put it on air. If you're not taken
20 there, if you're not given the opportunity to work, then you cannot
21 report it.
22 Furthermore, just on this general point, I would also point out
23 to the Court that in April 1994, for reasons that the were never given, I
24 was banned, indeed, for life by the Serb authorities, something that was
25 also upheld when we asked by the Bosnian Serb authorities. Then it
1 becomes impossible to report from your side of the front-line.
2 Q. You mentioned arrests a few times. When were you arrested, when
3 did you provide information about that, and when did you inform us of
4 your arrest in Pale?
5 Can this document be admitted?
6 A. I haven't commented on the document.
7 JUDGE KWON: No, we do not admit it. The same rule,
8 Mr. Karadzic. You didn't ask many questions about this, and then
9 Mr. van Lynden didn't comment anything about this.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, these are instructions
11 provided by the corps commander as to how journalists should be treated.
12 This is directly linked to what Mr. van Lynden has been saying. He's
13 been saying that we treated them poorly. It's the other way around.
14 They treated us poorly, and that is why the response of our people on the
15 ground was as it was.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Wasn't that the case? We were dissatisfied with international
18 media first, and then we reacted.
19 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, the Chamber has given its ruling.
20 Move on to your next question.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now I'd like to have a document
22 placed on the ELMO.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Page 2559 redacted.
4 This is the first page, statement on Bosnia. So this conference
5 pertained to all of Yugoslavia
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Isn't that right? It's the end of August 1992. At that point in
9 time, Vance and Owen took over from Carrington; right?
10 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
11 Mr. Nicholls.
12 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, I'm sorry, could we go into private
13 session for one moment?
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
15 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm just checking to make sure, but I believe this
16 is in --
17 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
18 [Private session]
11 Pages 2561-2563 redacted. Private session.
8 [Open session]
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes, now we are in open session.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I offer a document, just one
11 sentence from it, which shows that Rasim Delic opposed demilitarisation
12 in Sarajevo
13 show what General Rose had to say about that.
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
15 MR. NICHOLLS: Just, Your Honours, again it's an untranslated
16 document that we weren't provided with before.
17 JUDGE KWON: But you were notified of its use?
18 MR. NICHOLLS: No.
19 JUDGE KWON: Can you give some explanation, Mr. Karadzic?
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, this is a document
21 that was used by another Defence team, and it was admitted into evidence
22 in that case. In view of the fact that the Prosecutor objects to the
23 cumulative nature of the exhibits that we are offering for admittance
24 into evidence, which we do not really agree with, we just want to show
25 what was being reported in the international media, including the
1 Sky News, and what the actual situation was in Sarajevo. And with this
2 document, I'm just seeking to show that the other side, the opposite
3 side, was against demilitarisation.
4 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, I'm not raising that point. My point
5 was simply the procedural rule we set up and you agreed upon.
6 You need to notify the Prosecution in advance of when you start
7 your cross-examination, of the documents you are going to use during the
8 cross-examination; and you're also obliged to offer the translation. You
9 didn't inform the parties, and in particular the Prosecution of this
10 document, and even without translation. So what I want you to answer is
11 why this happened.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, as I've already said, we've
13 given up and decided not to use many of the documents that we wanted to
14 use because of the Prosecution's objection to their cumulative nature.
15 And this is something that I wanted to clear up with this witness today,
16 and that was mentioned in our interview. If you do not agree to this, I
17 will withdraw the document, and I will ask for another one to be shown.
18 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nicholls, do you object to putting this
19 document -- to using this document?
20 MR. NICHOLLS: No, Your Honour, not on the basis of its late use.
21 I just note that that makes problems for us, and that I hope it doesn't
22 continue to occur, although I know sometimes things do come up. There's
23 a pattern here.
24 Mr. Reid has found a translation which we could provide to the
1 The relevance at this point is beyond me, but I don't object on
2 the basis that it was provided to us late.
3 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
4 What is your question, Mr. Karadzic?
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. My question was this: Mr. van Lynden, in our interview you said
7 that you felt that our readiness and our agreement to demilitarisation
8 was never taken [realtime transcript read in error "was taken"]
9 seriously. In order to contest that, I showed the other document where I
10 showed that we accepted, at the London Conference, to negotiate
11 demilitarisation. And here in this document I'm --
12 In the transcript, it says that it was taken seriously, but your
13 claim was that it wasn't taken seriously.
14 And at the London Conference, we accepted that this be an item
15 for negotiations, and from this document here, the highlighted portion,
16 it says:
17 "Demilitarisation of Sarajevo is out of the question for
18 following reasons:"
19 And then the reasons are listed.
20 Can we now take a look at the bottom of the page and see that it
21 was signed by Rasim Delic.
22 Therefore, the question for you, Mr. van Lynden, is : Can we see
23 clearly from this that it was the Muslim side who did not want Sarajevo
24 to be demilitarised?
25 JUDGE KWON: Do you have the English translation?
1 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes. I was just going to say, Your Honour, the
2 only fair thing is to let the witness read the document.
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes, but let the English translation be put on the
5 MR. NICHOLLS: And I'd ask that the witness be given a moment to
6 review the document.
7 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, this is quite a complicated document
8 that I'm being asked to give an immediate reaction to.
9 JUDGE KWON: But the question for you is whether it was the
10 Muslim side who did not want Sarajevo
11 THE WITNESS: This document dates from April 1995, and not the
12 August conference of 1992, so there's already a separation there. The
13 document also is related to what is happening at that time in Bihac, in
14 Northern Bosnia
15 the August conference, Mr. Karadzic.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may -- well, we don't have
17 General Rose's book in e-court yet. We'll have it by tomorrow. But the
18 reports from 1992, 1993, and 1995, General Rose explains why the Muslim
19 side refused the Serbian proposal for the demilitarisation of Sarajevo
20 But you've told us what you were able to.
21 Can this document be admitted into evidence?
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE KWON: On the face of the document, the Chamber is
24 satisfied with the relevance -- its relevance and of the probative value
25 of the document. Therefore, we'll admit this.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D209.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 Could we now have 1D01141.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. While we are waiting for it to come up, let me just remind you.
6 You said that you were in Hadzici. Was this in early September 1992; am
7 I right?
8 A. The later part of September 1992. This was outside of Hadzici,
9 in the woods.
10 Q. Thank you. Here we have a document describing what was happening
11 to us on September 7, 1992, a report from the Command of the Sarajevo
12 Romanija Corps sent to the Main Staff.
13 Under number 1, we see it says:
14 "During the last reporting period, enemy actions became
15 intensified through combined infantry and artillery attacks on nearly all
16 defence lines.
17 "We note:
18 "An enemy infantry attack on Ozrenska Street was repelled, two
19 conscripts lightly wounded."
20 Did you know where Ozrenska Street was?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Thank you. The reason I ask this is that there was daily
23 fighting there.
24 Now, the next paragraph :
25 "A strong infantry attack on Vojkovici area. The enemy attacked
1 Krtelj and Krupac. And the first line of defence and the depth of our
2 territory came under heavy artillery fire. Three conscripts were
3 wounded, and one feature was damaged.
4 "Heavy artillery fire against Ilinjaca," and so on and so forth.
5 And then the next portion that refers to civilian. It says:
6 "In Ilidza, there were strong enemy attacks and intense artillery
7 fire on the centre of Ilidza. The post office building was hit,
8 significant material damage, three soldiers wounded. The enemy shelled
9 from Hadzici. No losses -- no personnel losses. Significant material
11 Then under number 3, it says:
12 "The situation in the area of responsibility of the Sarajevo
13 Romanija Corps is complex, and shelling further exacerbates the difficult
15 Losses and casualties: 14 soldiers and 10 technical -- or pieces
16 of equipment were damaged.
17 So you can see that throughout September -- and you say that you
18 were there in the second half of September, but here, this is a
19 description of what was happening in the first part of September. So we
20 see that there was fierce shelling of this part of Sarajevo. Do you
22 A. I don't know if there was fierce shelling of this part of
24 wasn't mentioned to me, as I recall at the time, nor was I taken there to
25 be shown, by either people from your government or from your army, that
1 this was taking place. I was in Pale. We went into Grbavica. I never
2 witnessed from -- while I was on your side of the front-lines, heavy
3 shelling. I did witness that one shot was fired into Grbavica from the
4 Bosnian government side, and that there was machine-gun fire in return.
5 And we filmed that, and we put that out onto air. That's all I can say.
6 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, my colleagues told you about how to
7 use your time for cross-examination or, in particular, how to
8 cross-examine the witness. This question, to me, seems to be an example
9 of a waste of time. You read out all the document, or most of it, to
10 which the witness said, I don't know. You're reading out does not
11 constitute evidence. The way you should proceed was to put your
12 question, summarising the document in a simple manner, and if the witness
13 says he doesn't know, you can bring another witness at a later stage, and
14 then it is for the Chamber to assess overall credibility and what
15 happened and what did not happen. So reading out the document is not a
16 proper way of putting your questions.
17 Let's move on.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 Q. Where were you on the 31st of December, 1992?
20 A. At home.
21 Q. You weren't in Sarajevo
22 A. I was not in Sarajevo
23 end of December to go to Belgrade
25 Q. Let us then go back to something that you said earlier about the
1 convoys in relation to Srebrenica.
2 Could we see 1D00271, please.
3 It says here that in your statement of this year, the 25th and
4 26th of February, 2010, on page 0674-9991, you said -- this is the same
5 statement, several pages of it, and you said that you were in Srebrenica
6 when you joined an UNPROFOR convoy, but that the convoy had -- the
7 previous convoy was banned from getting through the blockade in Bratunac,
8 where a fake protest took place. In other words, there was a fake
9 protest going on.
10 [In English] "For the benefit of the world media that was
11 present --"
12 A. Can I stop you here, Mr. Karadzic, because you're making a
13 mistake. I was not in Srebrenica. I went with the UN convoy from
15 enclave of Srebrenica. I wasn't in Srebrenica on my own beforehand. I
16 went with the UNPROFOR convoy.
17 Q. [Interpretation] Thank you. But you said there that this protest
18 was fake and that the -- that this was staged for the benefit of
19 international -- of world media who were there, present there, which
20 suggests that the Serb side wanted the world to be informed or to be told
21 that this column -- this convoy was unable to get through. And what was
22 the fake aspect, as you suggest here? What was -- how was that
24 A. UNPROFOR and the UNHCR had had an agreement with your government
25 that this convoy could, on a particular day, as I recall in November
1 1992, cross from Serbia
2 and enter the enclave of Srebrenica. When they tried to do so, they were
3 stopped by the military and told that they would not be allowed to enter.
4 We were then taken to a demonstration where the only banners of protest
5 were in English; not in Serbo-Croat, but in English. The last time I saw
6 that was in Iraq
7 and a number of international journalists went up to Iraqi Kurdistan and
8 the only banners there were in English as well. That indicates to me
9 that something was prepared for the world media rather than for the local
10 people, most of whom -- in fact, we didn't encounter anyone who spoke
11 English, when we actually asked them.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we then have 1D00271 -- oh,
13 that's the same document, okay.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Now, Mr. van Lynden, let's take a look now at this. I have a
16 document showing that this was built into the document of the Main Staff.
17 On the 28th of November, 1990 --
18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not sure of the year.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... an unannounced column
21 arrived carrying aid for the Bratunac inhabitants. There were six
22 vehicles in the convoy.
23 Now, do you -- would you accept, Mr. van Lynden, that a soldier
24 is not allowed to allow through an unannounced column or convoy because
25 he does not have the liberty to do that?
1 A. As I recall, it wasn't a soldier. It was an officer. I cannot
2 be certain of the rank, but as I recall, it was -- he held the rank of
3 major. But it may have been a Potpukovnik lieutenant-colonel.
4 As far as we had been informed both by UNPROFOR - and there was
5 an UNPROFOR detachment with the column - and by UNHCR, which was
6 responsible for the convoy of food, this was not only announced, but had
7 been agreed by your government that on that particular date this convoy
8 could enter the enclave of Srebrenica. Of course, it is possible that
9 the officer concerned had not been informed by your government, and,
10 therefore, because he had not been informed, he did not allow the convoy
11 to pass. However, the convoy took several days before it was finally
12 able to get into Srebrenica, and it can't have taken several days for
13 someone to inform the officer that your government had given the
14 agreement to the UNHCR and to UNPROFOR to allow that convoy of food to
15 enter Srebrenica.
16 Q. General Talic reported that this convoy was unannounced, and even
17 had he been a general, unless he had approval from the state committee
18 and unless this convoy was pre-announced, he would not have had -- he
19 would not have been allowed to let them go through.
20 And let's see what it says here, where it mentions the influence
21 of the president, Mr. Karadzic:
22 "The citizens of these places understood the situation, and after
23 the convoy was checked, it was allowed through and arrived in Srebrenica
24 on the same day."
25 So it was on the same day, and not a few days later.
1 JUDGE KWON: Before you answer, Mr. van Lynden: Mr. Nicholls, do
2 you have any --
3 MR. NICHOLLS: No objection, Your Honour.
4 Just for a point of clarity, this is not a report from
5 General Talic, the 1 KK commander. The translation I've got is that this
6 is information which has been passed on to General Talic. And just the
7 way the question was phrased made it sound as though General Talic was
8 involved in this incident and was reporting what had happened. In my
9 looking at this document, that is not correct. General Talic was head of
10 the 1 KK in Banja Luka on the complete other side, so that's just for the
12 JUDGE KWON: At the end of the document, it says "Momir Talic,
13 General," does it not?
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Explain.
15 MR. NICHOLLS: It does, Your Honour, but I think what
16 General Talic is doing is passing on information he's received from the
17 Main Staff.
18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, yes, Talic received from the
20 Main Staff this information, and he's forwarding it further, but not in
21 its entirety as received from the Main Staff.
22 JUDGE KWON: So you remember the question, Mr. van Lynden?
23 THE WITNESS: Well, I remember one part of it, whether it all
24 happened on one day, and the answer is, no, it did not. We were there
25 for several days, staying inside Serbia
1 able to pass. And as far as I'm aware, Your Honours, that was the first
2 UNHCR convoy to be allowed into Srebrenica.
3 JUDGE KWON: And what was your question, Mr. Karadzic, about the
4 influence of President Karadzic?
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Well, here the army reports that because of the influence of the
7 Main Staff and the president of the Presidency, they exerted their
8 influence on the people to allow this convoy to get through. And this
9 was not the first convoy, but the nth convoy, but we will prove that
11 So here we have your allegation that this was actually a fake
12 protest. And our position -- and we claim that it wasn't fake. And this
13 document, strictly confidential, exchanged between commands of the
14 Serbian Army reports that we had to use our influence to make the people
15 agree to allow the convoy through. So that is my question. Why did you
16 say that it was fake, when from this we can see that this protest was not
18 A. I think I've already answered that question. It was our
19 impression that this was an organised fake demonstration. And when the
20 convoy was given the green light by your armed forces, we never saw any
21 demonstrators at all.
22 Q. If I may just say this briefly. You've said this a number of
23 times, but now we hear you saying that this was your impression. So then
24 I would ask you to always state clearly that it is your impression, and
25 then we can easily work out the facts from impressions.
1 So in the cases of Galic and Milosevic, these two received very
2 high sentences, and yet they were based on impressions?
3 A. I'm not aware of Mr. Milosevic being sentenced at all. Nor in
4 the sentence of Mr. Galic, that was up to the Tribunal and not up to me,
5 Mr. Karadzic.
6 What we saw in Bratunac was a demonstration where the only
7 banners that were held, or pieces of paper, were in English and in no
8 other language. Therefore, we concluded that this was aimed at the
9 international media and that this was an organised event.
10 Q. Well, I was referring to General Milosevic, not to
11 President Milosevic. Unfortunately, there are a lot of Milosevics here.
12 But, Mr. van Lynden, what I am trying to say is this: Even if it
13 was organised, it was organised by the people, because they knew that you
14 were not reporting properly. And we can see from this confidential
15 intelligence that they allowed the people to get -- the columns to get
17 Can we have this document admitted into evidence, please?
18 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nicholls.
19 MR. NICHOLLS: I don't object.
20 JUDGE KWON: On that basis, and on the basis of relevance, we'll
21 admit this document.
22 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D210, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE KWON: And we'll rise for today.
24 Yes. Judge Morrison has something.
25 JUDGE MORRISON: Just two things.
1 First of all, just to clear one point up for me, please, if you
2 could, Mr. van Lynden, in your statement you often talk about incendiary
3 bullets or ammunition. By that, do you mean tracer rounds, or are you
4 distinguishing between tracer and incendiary?
5 THE WITNESS: I mean incendiary. A tracer round is different to
6 an incendiary round, in my -- to my knowledge.
7 JUDGE MORRISON: Well, to my knowledge, it is, too, and I was
8 just wondering whether or not you made that distinction. It appears that
9 you had.
10 The second, really, is for you, Dr. Karadzic. Although it's not
11 something you can be forced to do, by any means, but it just seems to me
12 that with the relatively limited amount of time we have tomorrow, if
13 there are any lengthy documents that you intend to put to Mr. van Lynden
14 tomorrow, it might be a useful exercise to indicate which they are after
15 we've risen and to supply copies. Mr. van Lynden won't thank me very
16 much for extending his bedtime reading, but it might do some good for the
17 efficiency of the court tomorrow morning. It's just a suggestion which
18 you can accept or, of course, reject.
19 JUDGE KWON: So tomorrow we will resume --
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, may I just reply?
21 Since we have a lot of documents that are cumulative in nature,
22 I, myself, was considering the possibility of offering them through a
23 Bar table motion so that the entire documents could be admitted into
24 evidence. And tomorrow I intend to show Mr. van Lynden numerous reports
25 from other media, well-known media. Perhaps I could provide them for
1 Mr. van Lynden to take a look at tonight, and also General Rose's book.
2 And it is our view that something that Mr. van Lynden said here was
3 rather vague, and I just want to be more precise about it. And I'm not
4 saying that Mr. van Lynden did this intentionally, but, however, if any
5 evidence is offered here and it is imprecise or based on impressions,
6 then it needs to be made more precise and clear.
7 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
8 We'll resume at 8.30 tomorrow morning and go until 11.00, at
9 which time Mr. van Lynden has to leave, during which session we'll have a
10 15 minutes' break. In the meantime, after the conclusion of
11 Mr. Van Lynden's evidence, we'll have another 15 minutes' break and we'll
12 continue to hear the witness, and we'll go until 1.30.
13 [The witness stands down]
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.06 p.m.
15 to be reconvened on Friday, the 21st day of May,
16 2010, at 8.30 a.m.