Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4433

 1                           Thursday, 1 July 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everybody.  Good morning, Mr. Mandic.

 7     I hope you had a good night, good sleep, good rest.

 8             Mr. Tieger.

 9             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

10                           WITNESS:  MOMCILO MANDIC [Resumed]

11                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

12                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tieger: [Continued]

13        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Mandic.

14        A.   Good morning, Mr. Tieger.

15        Q.   Mr. Mandic, yesterday you alluded to the personnel selection

16     process in the MUP, and I understand that you could tell me many details

17     about the manner in which that process angered Serbian officials as a

18     result of certain actions by the SDA and by the Muslims; correct?

19        A.   Could you clarify that question?

20        Q.   Between the time of the election of the national parties and the

21     ultimate split of the MUP, there was a process of installing personnel at

22     various levels of the MUP, correct, and making selections of personnel to

23     assume those positions?

24        A.   Yes, that's correct.

25        Q.   And there was considerable controversy and many tensions

Page 4434

 1     surrounding that process; right?

 2        A.   Yes, correct.

 3        Q.   And on various occasions, you and members of the Bosnian Serb

 4     leadership expressed anger at the positions taken or actions taken by

 5     members of the SDA or Muslim officials within the MUP; is that right?

 6        A.   Yes, correct.  Let me explain, Mr. Tieger, since you've

 7     explained.

 8        Q.   And I'll certainly give you an opportunity to do that.  But if

 9     I could just complete this process of questioning, and then to the extent

10     further elaboration is required, certainly you'll be in a position to do

11     so.

12             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President.

13             I've been noticing that these questions are very leading, and I

14     was wondering -- it seems that we're getting past preliminary issues now,

15     and I would object, actually, to the leading nature of these questions.

16             JUDGE KWON:  He's a Chamber witness, and the Prosecution is

17     allowed to put leading questions, whatever impact it may have on the

18     weight.  That's the question I raised with you, Mr. Robinson.

19             MR. ROBINSON:  I hadn't understood that the Chamber had actually

20     made a decision that both parties would then be allowed to cross-examine

21     the witness.  But if that's your decision, that's fine.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE MORRISON:  That's the way it follows, Mr. Robinson.  Once a

23     party has been called by the Court or Chamber, everyone else is entitled

24     to cross-examine.  It's not a question of us making that decision.  It

25     flows from the fact he's the Chamber's witness.

Page 4435

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

 2             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3        Q.   Mr. Mandic, the next question I wanted to ask was this:  The fact

 4     is that all of the parties, the SDS, the SDA, and the HDZ, attempted to

 5     ensure selections on the basis of ethnicity; correct?

 6        A.   That's correct, Mr. Tieger.

 7        Q.   And is it also correct that all of the parties in power made

 8     unreasonable demands in connection with that process?

 9        A.   No, no, that's not correct.  May I explain, Mr. Tieger?

10        Q.   Now you may explain, and I'll ask you further questions about

11     that.

12        A.   As far as I know, the winning parties who were in a collation,

13     the Serbian Democratic Party, the SDA and the HDZ, at the republican

14     level, at least as far as the Ministry of Police is concerned, had agreed

15     about the distribution of senior posts.  The first man in the police was

16     to be a Muslim, the second man a Serb, and man number three was to be a

17     Croat.  And the same system applied in public security and in state

18     security.  As for districts and municipalities, it was agreed that in a

19     district or a municipality where one ethnic community is in the majority,

20     a member of that ethnic majority would be head of the police.  A member

21     of the second-largest community would be police commander, and the third

22     ethnic community would provide the chief of the Crime Department.  And

23     that was the system in all of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  It was not decided

24     individually or differently in every municipality or district.  It was a

25     blanket principle.

Page 4436

 1             Did I make that clear, Mr. Tieger?

 2        Q.   I think so, Mr. Mandic.  And if the Court has any questions,

 3     they'll certainly inquire.

 4             The question I had asked you earlier was not about the

 5     over-arching principles or guide-lines for the selection of personnel,

 6     but instead about the actual implementation of that agreement.  So when I

 7     asked you whether or not there was controversy or tensions involved in

 8     that, and you indicated, Yes, I understood that to be your indication

 9     that as the process went forward, there were conflicts surrounding the

10     individual selections.  Is that accurate?

11        A.   Correct, Mr. Tieger.  And I can explain that using the example of

12     the appointment of senior officials in the State Security Service.  In

13     that service, the post number 2 [as interpreted] belonged to a Croat, and

14     the post number 2 belonged to the Serbs.  In the meantime, the head of

15     that service, with his associates, changed the staffing system and

16     excluded the post that belonged to the Serbs, so that at the level of --

17     what had been agreed at the level of the republic was not implemented, as

18     far as appointments were concerned.  And that was one of the problems

19     about which the Serbian Democratic Party complained and asked that the

20     previous -- previously-agreed system be implemented with regards to

21     appointments in the police.  And that went on in certain districts where

22     certain heads of security refused to implement the inter-party agreement.

23        Q.   And all of the parties, in the context of the guide-lines you've

24     just explained, were interested in ensuring that the personnel that they

25     wanted in place were, in fact, put in place; correct?

Page 4437

 1        A.   I don't know about the personnel of other parties.  I know about

 2     the personnel from the SDS and the Serb community.  I know that since

 3     Vito Zepinic was man number 1 in the ministry from the Serbian community,

 4     I know it was the position of the SDS that really professional people,

 5     career policemen, be appointed to senior posts.  I was never a member of

 6     the party and that was my case, and I wasn't even politically active.  I

 7     got that post because I was 15 years a policeman, I was a judge of the

 8     Regular Court, I was an active sportsman; and, for instance, I met

 9     Mr. Karadzic only in 1991, when I was nominated for that position.

10     Before that, I didn't even know about his existence.  And it was at the

11     insistence of Vito Zepinic that I got that post, and the assistance of my

12     own brother, who was a teacher at the school in Vraca.  And I can say

13     with all certainty that all the personnel, at least as far as the Serbian

14     community is concerned, were career policemen who had until then occupied

15     various posts in the Ministry of the Interior and the State Security

16     Service.  And as far as I know, there was not one man who was recruited

17     from the ranks of civilians or from other services to work in the

18     Ministry of Police.  And I'm only talking about Serbs on the police

19     force.

20        Q.   Well, notwithstanding the background you've just explained, and

21     your own personal background, Mr. Mandic, I want to get to the bottom

22     line on the nature of the process that took place from the elections

23     until the split of the MUP.  And in that connection, I wanted to ask you

24     about something you said in the Stanisic/Zupljanin case.

25             And in that case, at page 9453, you said the following:

Page 4438

 1             "The parties in power had very unreasonable demands of us in

 2     places where no Muslim was the top man.  A Muslim had to be appointed at

 3     all costs, at the demand of the SDA.  The SDS did the same.  They

 4     insisted on appointments of their own people."

 5        A.   Precisely, and that's what I'm trying to explain.  The SDS on

 6     several occasions protested in writing and asked that their personnel be

 7     appointed to those posts that were assigned to them by the inter-party

 8     agreement.  And I believe that in the Stanisic and Zupljanin case, the

 9     letter of Mr. Karadzic was shown, a letter which asks that the

10     inter-party agreement concerning appointments be observed.  The chief of

11     police was to be a Muslim.  The chief of personnel was also to be a

12     Muslim.  And these two men were able to do or not to do whatever they

13     wanted, as far as appointments are concerned, and all that was left to us

14     was to insist that the inter-party coalition agreement be honoured.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.  The transcript says

16     "the chief of police was to be a Muslim," and the witness actually said

17     "the chief was a Muslim."

18             JUDGE KWON:  Do you confirm, Mr. Mandic, that's what you said?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the chief of personnel was

20     from the Muslim community, with the proviso that in autumn 1991, they

21     replaced the chief of that service, but his replacement was also a

22     Muslim.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. Karadzic.

24             Let's continue, Mr. Tieger.

25             MR. TIEGER:

Page 4439

 1        Q.   And the national parties in power identified particular persons

 2     whom they wanted to assume particular posts and pushed for the

 3     appointment of those people; isn't that right?

 4        A.   No, Mr. Tieger.  Let me explain.

 5             The rule was that the ruling parties from the district that the

 6     appoints an individual nominate three candidates who meet the formal

 7     requirements; a university degree, no criminal record, et cetera, the

 8     basic requirements for someone to be admitted into the police.  Out of

 9     these three nominations, we in the ministry decided who of the three

10     would be selected.

11             Let me give you an example.  In Foca district, the man number 1

12     in the police went to the representatives of the Muslim community.

13     People from Foca, from the SDA, sent three nominations.  Mr. Hasan Cengic

14     insisted that it be one of his relatives, Cengic, who graduated from

15     medresa.  We appointed Hilmo Selimovic, who was a career policeman.  And

16     then there occurred protests, and Mr. Cengic started sending me letters

17     that I'm not appointing Muslims, that I'm interfering with the personnel

18     policy, et cetera.  This Hilmo Selimovic is now the first policeman in

19     the canton, and I, in agreement with other representatives of both the

20     Muslim and the Serb community and the ministry, made a decision on that

21     appointment to avoid a controversy among the personnel in the police and

22     in the SDA party.  And this is the way in which we dealt with the

23     maximalist demands of various parties, and we deflected them.  And until

24     then, there was harmony within the ranks of the police, until a different

25     man came to the Personnel Service.

Page 4440

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have a remark to make about the

 2     transcript.  About the word "medresa," there should be recorded that he

 3     was -- the man was a "hodja," which is a Muslim cleric.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note, Mr. Mandic is speaking much

 5     too fast.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Line 15, 14 and 15.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, thank you.

 8             When you would like to intervene, Mr. Karadzic, please put a

 9     pause, because both the witness and you are speaking the same language.

10     Wait for the translation to be concluded.

11             And the interpreters noted that you are speaking a little bit

12     fast, Mr. Mandic.  Please bear that in mind.

13             Please continue, Mr. Tieger.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Tieger, I know that -- that's

15     what I'm trying to say, there were maximalist demands, and that happened

16     with the SDS at certain times and with the SDA and the HDZ.  I don't mean

17     the narrow circle of leadership.  I mean party leaders on the local

18     level, in districts where, for the most part, individual party leaders

19     were pushing their own people to various positions.  I gave you the

20     example of Foca, where I made the appointment with the agreement with the

21     then chief of personnel, Hilmo Selimovic, Minister Delimustafic, and

22     Bruno Stojic.  I appointed Hilmo Selimovic, who was a policeman with long

23     years of service and who is now policeman number 1 in Sarajevo instead of

24     a man who was a "hodja," a relative of one of the leaders of the SDA.

25     I think I can still find this man's letters and complaints in my

Page 4441

 1     archives.  His name was Cengic.

 2             MR. TIEGER:

 3        Q.   Mr. Mandic, you mentioned both the broader circle of the SDS, SDA

 4     and HDZ and the narrow circle of leadership involved in this process.

 5     The fact is that -- I'm sorry, you were nodding, Yes.  The fact is that

 6     Dr. Karadzic got quite involved in this process; isn't that right?

 7        A.   Well, as far as appointments in the police are concerned, no.

 8     For a while, Vito Zepinic made all the decisions about that, or, rather,

 9     Rajko Dukic, and then I took over that role of the personnel man number 1

10     in the police, and you have to believe me if I say that Mr. Karadzic

11     never gave me a call saying, Mandic, go ahead and appoint this and that

12     man.  There were calls from various party leaders in districts and

13     municipalities.  Why?  Because Mr. Dukic, who was the chief of personnel,

14     had agreed at republic level which posts would belong to which parties,

15     or, rather, ethnic communities; the Serbian, the Muslim, and the Croat

16     communities.  And Dr. Karadzic insisted that this agreement that had been

17     signed be honoured.  And in two or three places, this was never done, up

18     to the end of the war, the post of the chief of police in Sarajevo, the

19     post of the chief of security, and one other post.  I can't remember

20     which.  There was pressure on us from the local level, from districts.

21        Q.   Mr. Mandic, let me draw your attention to something you said in

22     the Stanisic/Zupljanin case, and that was at pages 9654 through 55 of

23     that transcript:

24             "Dr. Karadzic liked to meddle in these cadre problems.  He always

25     wanted to have a finger in the pie."

Page 4442

 1             First of all, Mr. Mandic, is that an accurate reflection of what

 2     you said?

 3        A.   I'm afraid, Mr. Tieger, that you might have taken that out of

 4     context.  Would you tell me what kind of personnel we were talking about?

 5     What was that relating to?  Was it about personnel at republic level or

 6     all personnel at the level of municipalities and districts included.

 7        Q.   No, Mr. Mandic, you tell me what aspects of the cadre problems

 8     Dr. Karadzic liked to meddle in.

 9        A.   I would just like a clarification of what you just quoted.  What

10     was that discussion about?  Was it personnel within politics, or the

11     police force --

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just suggest that we read out

13     that portion entirely.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Which page, Mr. Tieger?

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 9654.

16             MR. TIEGER:

17        Q.   Mr. Mandic, you have the transcript in front of you.  It's 9654

18     through 9655 of the Stanisic/Zupljanin testimony.  And I can read it out

19     for you or you can -- I see you have documents in front of you.  Maybe

20     you have it there.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Since the Chamber has not the transcript before us,

22     if you could read out the relevant passage, if you find it necessary,

23     Mr. Tieger, for the benefit of the Chamber.

24             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Your Honour.

25             The question related to the second half of 1991, and the question

Page 4443

 1     was:

 2             "So after you held the meetings and tried to resolve that within

 3     your own house first, after that you wrote a letter to the Presidency and

 4     the government and the Presidential Commission for the Protection of the

 5     Constitutional Order, that is to say, all the relevant institutions, you

 6     wrote to all of them and pointed out the irregularities and unlawfulness

 7     of the work of the MUP?"

 8             And you said that was your duty, all you were doing was your job.

 9             And then the question was:

10             "And, finally, due to the fact that your letters did not bear

11     fruit, letters to the top state institutions did not bring any results,

12     you addressed the public in September and then again in February and so

13     forth, and in your addresses to the public you were joined by the Serbian

14     Democratic Party or Dr. Karadzic; is that right?"

15             And then you said:

16             "Yes, Dr. Karadzic liked to meddle in these cadre problems.  He

17     always wanted to have a finger in the pie."

18        Q.   And I ask you to explain the nature of the cadre problems that

19     Dr. Karadzic liked to meddle in.

20        A.   I probably meant that he was meddling in an attempt to support us

21     in our insistence that the personnel policy be honoured, because

22     Dr. Karadzic politely asked several times the minister of police and the

23     coalition partners that the coalition agreement be honoured at the level

24     of the republic.  That means that the executive posts that were to be

25     given to Serbs should be given to Serbs.

Page 4444

 1             As for other aspects of meddling with that policy, I can say with

 2     full responsibility that Dr. Karadzic never interfered, nor did he ever

 3     ask for individual people to be given individual posts, but he insisted

 4     that Nedjo Vlaski, who was elected to become head of state security, be

 5     given that appointment, and that was the way in which he meddled, if that

 6     is called meddling.

 7        Q.   Well, perhaps we can look at a few conversations that you had

 8     with Dr. Karadzic during that period of time.

 9             And I'd like to turn first to 65 ter 30113.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, Mr. Tieger.

11             Mr. Tieger, for our reference, do you by any chance have the

12     65 ter number for his transcript in the Zupljanin case,

13     Stanisic/Zupljanin case?  Do you have that in e-court?

14             MR. TIEGER:  I don't believe it's up-loaded yet, Your Honour.  We

15     can do so.

16             JUDGE KWON:  No.  Just for my information.  Thank you.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I, while we're waiting for the

18     document, observe that a finger in the pie is probably an English idiom,

19     and it is probably not a good translation of what the witness actually

20     said.

21             JUDGE KWON:  I think that's the subject -- proper subject you can

22     deal with during your cross-examination.

23             Mr. Tieger.

24             MR. TIEGER:  Okay.

25             65 ter 30113 is a conversation between Mr. Karadzic and

Page 4445

 1     Mr. Mandic on the 22nd of July, 1991, and perhaps we can play a portion

 2     of that.

 3             And, Your Honour, I would also -- for the sake of expediency,

 4     perhaps it would be useful to provide the witness with a binder that

 5     contains the transcripts of any intercepts we may play for the Court.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 7             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. Mandic, we'll play this for the Court and for

 8     you now, and you'll find the transcript at tab 1 of the binder that was

 9     just presented to you.

10                           [Audio-clip played]

11             THE INTERPRETER:  [Voiceover] "Is it the office of Mandic?

12             "Yes, is Mandic there, please?"

13             "Yes.  Who is speaking?"

14             "Radovan Karadzic."

15             "Just a moment, please."

16             "Hello."

17             "Good afternoon."

18             "Doctor, it is Slavko, Draskovic."

19             "How are you?"

20             "Fine, thank you."

21             "Did you do anything today?"

22             "We gathered, compensating for some things."

23             "I see."

24             "Regarding Cedo, we just ...  Momo went to see me and we'll

25     probably finalise it quickly.  And regarding other things, Mico is here

Page 4446

 1     and so on."

 2             "I see, fine.  Push it, don't let it happen.  Don't give up one

 3     man."

 4             "We won't, but we'll have to ... just a moment, Doctor, Momo

 5     would like to talk to you."

 6             "Okay."

 7             "Just a moment, Bye."

 8             "Have a nice day."

 9             "Thank you."

10             "How are things, Momo?"

11             "Well, President, I took power, and you can do whatever pleases

12     you."

13             "Sure, sure, who doesn't know how to take power shouldn't have it

14     at all."

15             "I have, I have already appointed myself and you can do whatever

16     you want."

17             "You just take it."

18             "I'm joking.  I went this morning to see Alija Delimustafic.

19             "Okay."

20             "And I told him that we had a meeting last night and that the

21     party concluded that Cedo Kljajic cannot be replaced without agreement of

22     the Serbian Democratic Party."

23             "Not a one ..."

24             "That is our personnel."

25             "... personnel, not a one person can be appointed without our

Page 4447

 1     agreement."

 2             "We had a meeting today and Alija saw ... so I told him:  Alija,

 3     please, let's not create problems and ... another MUP and so.  And Alija

 4     agreed.  We agreed to meet today with Hilmo, Alija, Osman Jasarevic in

 5     order to solve the Kljajic case.  I told them:  If he did something, it

 6     is lack of discipline.  You should explain your arguments and we shall

 7     appoint a new Serb who is regular, who respects the rules and so on.  If

 8     there are no grounds, you cannot replace him.  You cannot do anything

 9     without the party."

10             "Yes, yes."

11             "And I told him that Dr. Karadzic sent his regards and that the

12     SDA cannot appoint Serbian personnel.  Fine, Momo, he said.  In general,

13     he agreed to finalise the matter today and I think that Cedo Kljajic will

14     keep the position."

15             "Okay.

16             "He said:  So Vito accepted?  And I said, no, Vito.  What do you

17     mean Vito?  You know that the party does not ... him any more ... he

18     said, in that sense, immediately, immediately, President ... even

19     minister does not want anything to do with him.  Immediately."

20             "Yes, yes."

21             "He changed the story immediately."

22             "Yes, yes."

23             "Like, he blew it, this, that, in that sense and so on."

24             "Yes, yes."

25             "I called Jasarevic to stop everything.  I have the decisions."

Page 4448

 1             "Fine."

 2             "I'm dictating this to Radmila, and I'm going to take it to

 3     Simovic and Krajisnik."

 4             "Okay."

 5             "That thing, our conclusion from last night."

 6             "When Hilmo comes there, tell him not to play games, because none

 7     of them would come out clean and unaffected.  Everybody's career will be

 8     questioned if you fuck up with Serbian personnel."

 9             "President, Alija just told Hilmo that I would hear from him

10     today.  I ... and when I finish this."

11             "Yes."

12             "Because they blame now Mico Stanisic for -- they worked over the

13     weekend.  Avdo Hebib established a group concerning some guns.  However

14     it is all according to the law, legal and everything."

15             "I see."

16             "Because Mico Stanisic gave some arms to SUP, SUP Ilidza, Pale,

17     and CSB.  They thought it was civilian but it was not.  Everything is

18     regular, everything is according to the law."

19             "Yes, yes."

20             "The committee has been formed, but Stanisic was not informed.

21     That is all.  You know the structure of the committee."

22             "Tell them not to play games because they will go to hell."

23             "Mico and myself went to see Avdo Hebib.  We made some trouble

24     there and Alija got down to earth.  He said, all right, Momo, finish that

25     business with arms and Kljajic case.  So you know that I have been

Page 4449

 1     working all this time."

 2             "Fine.  Do you have any information ... They appointed a man in

 3     Prijedor on Friday afternoon.  There is a Muslim commander.  There now, a

 4     Muslim mayor and Muslim Chief of Defence, Territorial Defence."

 5             "I don't know, I will check it."

 6             "They want Miskovic.  He was retired, but he is a young man.  He

 7     could be active again."

 8             "Miskovic."

 9             Yes, they say he is all right.  I've met him in ..."

10             "Okay."

11             "... right person."

12             "Fine, President, I will do it now.  Prijedor is it?"

13             "Yes, Prijedor."

14             "And that is our position?"

15             "Yes, the position of commander is ours."

16             "Yes, they appointed the mayor.  They should have appointed the

17     commander immediately so he can take up his duties at the same time;

18     isn't that so?"

19             "In Prijedor.  Slavko in Prijedor."

20             "Miskovic.  I don't know his name."

21             "Fine.  Miskovic has not been appointed.  Slavko says that he is.

22     He thinks that he has been."

23             "I see.  But look at this, they fucked up something in Drvar.

24     They appointed certain Maksic who is no good and the party does not

25     support him.  There it should be Zoran Srdic and Kunjadic, and not ..."

Page 4450

 1             "Srdic."

 2             "But, President, I don't think they have appropriate education

 3     level, but I'll check.  Titov Drvar?"

 4             "One hasn't got one, one has."

 5             "Just a moment."

 6             "I think this one has one.  But don't appoint Maksic, for God's

 7     sake.  If he has to be appointed, let it be there."

 8             "Okay.

 9             "Because he is stopping everything and it wouldn't be good if he

10     was there."

11             "I see."

12             "Because he was there until now and he is involved with old

13     personnel and in knavery and everything.  So, he should not be

14     appointed."

15             "Fine.  Fine, President.  That old guy, what's his name?

16             "Old Maksic, he's no good."

17             "Maksic."

18             "He is no good.  Cross him out."

19             "Fine."

20             "Kunjadic and Zoran Srdic are good ones."

21             "Good, good, President, we will sort it out with Slavko, since

22     it's a police matter."

23             "Okay."

24             "We'll do it today."

25             "To appoint some Pecanac?

Page 4451

 1             "No."

 2             "No."

 3             "Not our personnel."

 4             "Yes, yes."

 5             "No problem."

 6             "Our personnel will go."

 7             "Fine."

 8             "Okay, President."

 9             "Thanks a lot."

10             "We will inform you."

11             "We'll be in touch."

12             "Have a nice day."

13             "Just be hard on them."

14             "Cheers."

15             "Whenever you're right, be hard on them.  There is no other

16     solution."

17             "Have a nice day."

18             "Cheers."

19             MR. TIEGER:

20        Q.   First of all, Mr. Mandic, I take it you recognise the voices in

21     that conversation?

22        A.   Yes, yes, that's Mr. Karadzic, myself, and Slavko Draskovic, who

23     was deputy chief of police.

24             Mr. Tieger, what we heard just now confirms my assertions;

25     namely, that it was from the local level that pressure was exerted to

Page 4452

 1     have certain persons appointed.  They even did that through Dr. Karadzic.

 2     How could Dr. Karadzic know of a person from Drvar, whether he is good or

 3     not, if someone from the party from the district had not called him and

 4     asked him to tell us?

 5             As for this Cedo Kljajic, secondly, we insisted, because he was a

 6     policeman for many years, that he remain in that position, but he did not

 7     suit some of the Muslim people who were in the police.  It seems to me

 8     that you can see in this conversation that the local party chiefs exerted

 9     pressure to appoint individuals to particular positions, whereas I

10     insisted that they should meet the formal requirements; that they should

11     have university degrees, that they should not have a criminal record,

12     that they meet all the formal requirements for these jobs.  And I think

13     that you can see that on the basis of this conversation.

14        Q.   Of course, Mr. Mandic, and I wasn't suggesting that Mr. Karadzic

15     knew, from the moment he assumed the position of president of the SDS,

16     every potential candidate in every municipality without checking.  So as

17     you've indicated, local officials would be in contact with Dr. Karadzic

18     and he would relate -- put pressure on him, is what you said, and he

19     would relate to you who the candidates should be?

20        A.   He just received these suggestions from these local people.  But

21     for the most part, we observed what had been set out at the very

22     beginning, what kind of personnel policy was established in the MUP; that

23     it should be longstanding policemen; that he should have a university

24     degree; and that he was fit for that position.  Dr. Karadzic never told

25     me something like, That person does not meet the formal requirements,

Page 4453

 1     he's a criminal, or, He does not have the right kind of degree, but

 2     nevertheless appoint him to that position.  No.

 3             I think, at least as far as I'm concerned, that I was rather

 4     independent, but of course I did honour my own associates and other

 5     people from the party; say Rajko Dukic.  As for Radovan -- I beg your

 6     pardon, Dr. Karadzic, no, I think only as far as the most important posts

 7     are concerned that the leadership of the Serbian Democratic Party was

 8     interested in.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Intervention of the transcript.

10     Page 17, line 20.  The witness said he would forward it, and here it says

11     "received suggestions," whereas these suggestions were forwarded from the

12     local people.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Mandic, is it correct you said you forwarded the

14     suggestions from these local people?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not me.  President Karadzic would

16     forward to me suggestions and requests made by party leaders at local

17     level.  President Karadzic -- well, I mean, I knew.  It wasn't that

18     President Karadzic was doing this personally.  He didn't know these

19     people.  These were suggestions and pressures that were coming from the

20     local level of various political leaders that I knew about, and I never

21     understood this to be personal pressure on the part of Mr. Karadzic for

22     particular jobs.  It was a forwarding of proposals from local level

23     that -- proposals that were made by certain leaders of the Serb

24     Democratic Party at local level.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Mandic.

Page 4454

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 2             MR. TIEGER:

 3        Q.   Mr. Mandic, are you suggesting that Mr. Karadzic did not insist

 4     that the SDS nominations for positions to which it thought it was

 5     entitled, and which Dr. Karadzic thought the SDS was entitled to, were

 6     not honoured and were not implemented?

 7        A.   Would you please repeat that question?  I'm sorry.  I'm not

 8     exactly concentrated.

 9        Q.   Wasn't Dr. Karadzic insistent that the SDS nominees to the

10     positions that Dr. Karadzic believed the SDS was entitled to actually be

11     implemented and those people be put in place?

12        A.   Mr. Tieger, Dr. Karadzic did that when there were several

13     interventions, when the inter-party agreement was not being honoured, and

14     when we, in the police, at the level of the Ministry of the Police, could

15     not carry this through, then we asked the head of the party, the

16     leadership of the party, to have this resolved at the level of the

17     presidents of the ruling parties, Mr. Alija Izetbegovic,

18     Mr. Radovan Karadzic, and Mr. Mate Boban, because these were crucial

19     positions, key positions, in the police.  Karadzic intervened only when

20     we, within the police, were not able to resolve that.

21        Q.   Who was Mr. Gavrilovic?

22        A.   I don't know.

23        Q.   Did I pronounce it correctly, Gavrilovic?

24        A.   There is such a surname, yes, Gavrilovic, but I don't know.

25        Q.   Was he nominated to an important post?

Page 4455

 1        A.   I'm sorry.  What was his first name, this Gavrilovic person?

 2        Q.   I don't have that post -- this first name.  Did you know a man

 3     named Bojic, or Tomic, who were appointed to positions?

 4        A.   Tomic is a frequent surname among the Serbian people, so I don't

 5     know who it is, whereas Zivko Bojic is a friend of mine from school who

 6     was head of the Crime Prevention Service in Banja Luka.  That's that

 7     Zivko Bojic.  There are quite a few people who have the same surname and

 8     who are not related in spite of that.  I cannot remember any other Bojic.

 9        Q.   Well, let's turn to 65 ter 30165.  That's a conversation on the

10     26th of August, 1991.  You'll find that at tab 2, Mr. Mandic.

11                           [Audio-clip played]

12             THE INTERPRETER:  [Voiceover] "Who is speaking?"

13             "Radovan Karadzic."

14             "Good afternoon, Mr. President."

15             "What are you up to?"

16             "I'm in the meeting.  There are some problems with Srebrenica,

17     commanders, et cetera."

18             "It was not only a problem with Srebrenica but also with

19     Gavrilovic.  Who has made that decision to replace him?  We decided to

20     appoint him to the position of that guy who retired, but nothing is

21     getting done.  What are these people thinking of?  Who made Bojic

22     candidate for inspector?  Who appointed Tomic?  Can that Selimovic give

23     answers to certain questions?"

24             "President, I would like to see you to discuss this.  We need to

25     agree and I would then pass on your views."

Page 4456

 1             "Listen, tell them immediately, if they don't correct these

 2     things, we shall ... appointments that are all nominations and

 3     appointments that are basically political functions within one week."

 4             "Yes."

 5             "That is basic and feel free to tell this to Selimovic."

 6             "Okay."

 7             "All nominations are political issues.  All nominations come from

 8     the parties, and they cannot appoint one single person without our

 9     approval."

10             "Okay, President."

11             "Tell them.  Tell them now."

12             "Fine."

13             "That we will consider him to be directly responsible.  This will

14     all pass, as well as criminal prosecutions, and we will make a list of

15     people that will be criminally prosecuted, whoever fucks with us."

16             "President, I will immediately with ... sit down and that."

17             "And please tell that Gavrilovic was moved from the position of

18     inspector for traffic violations.  We nominated him instead of that one

19     who left, who left, who was retired."

20             "Up there as instructor?"

21             "That Milan Buntic."

22             "Milan Buntic?"

23             "Yes."

24             "Yes."

25             "We nominated Gavrilovic for his position.  We are replacing him.

Page 4457

 1     That means that anyone coming from the SDS is being replaced, like we are

 2     denouncing people.  When we give support to someone they ... him ..."

 3             "Yes, yes."

 4             "As if we are not in power, fuck them.  What do you think they

 5     are doing and how long they intend to act that way?"

 6             "President, we will finish it all."

 7             "I will see Izetbegovic today.  I will tell Izetbegovic exactly

 8     what I mean, and it become public soon.  When it comes to Selimovic and

 9     everyone in SUP who is fucking with us, I guarantee they will be

10     criminally prosecuted."

11             "Fine, President, I will remain with Selimovic and discuss

12     everything."

13             "Tell him severely that it is enough of that and I will request

14     to terminate all appointments and to nominate people that SDS ..."

15             "We'll see about Gavrilovic, Tomic, and that one there ..."

16             "I don't want to hear about Tomic.  Tomic is not our candidate in

17     any case."

18             "I know he isn't, President, I know he isn't.  We will appoint

19     our man, President."

20             "Okay, and I will see that Cedo is appointed to the position that

21     is appropriate for him."

22             "I talked about that with Hilmo that Cedo should take the place

23     of Obrad here ..."

24             "Markovic."

25             "Markovic."

Page 4458

 1             "Okay, I see."

 2             "We basically agreed about all of that."

 3             "Fine, fine.  And if they want and if Selimovic and Hebib intend

 4     to live their life peacefully and have careers, they should be careful

 5     about what they do."

 6             "I will today ..."

 7             "Fine."

 8             "I will try to finish with Selimovic and I will inform you."

 9             "I will be at 5.00 at the Deputy's Club."

10             "Okay."

11             "If you can ..."

12             "Fine, President."

13             "I will go soon."

14             "Okay, President.  Hilmo Selimovic says hello."

15             "Thank you.  Say hello to him and tell him all of this."

16             "Fine.

17             "In a sharp manner."

18             "Okay, President, have a nice day."

19             "I will let you know."

20             "Thank you."

21             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honours, I may make one suggestion or an option

22     for the Court, and that is it is possible to listen to the actual

23     conversation on the B/C/S channel and follow the transcript on screen.

24     You may be doing that already, but I wanted to alert you to that

25     possibility.

Page 4459

 1        Q.   Mr. Mandic, again, I take it you recognise the participants in

 2     that conversation.

 3        A.   Yes, yes, Mr. Karadzic and myself.

 4        Q.   And I'll ask you again.  Who was Gavrilovic?

 5        A.   I don't know, believe me.  I don't know who any of these people

 6     are.

 7        Q.   Mr. Mandic, how often were you in contact with Dr. Karadzic in

 8     connection with these personnel or cadre matters?

 9        A.   Well, as far as telephone contacts are concerned, you have all of

10     those telephone conversations, because Munir Alibabic listened to me from

11     beginning to end and he handed it all over to you.  So you have all of

12     those telephone conversations.  As for actual meetings, if something was

13     difficult, complicated, sometimes I'd go to see him, but that was very

14     seldom.

15             As for these -- well, I repeat once again, Mr. Tieger, when we

16     could not resolve problems, then we turned to the heads of parties on the

17     one side or the other, or the third, for that matter.  These were

18     probably some complaints that went yet again through certain individuals,

19     the heads of regional parties, who complained to Dr. Karadzic, and then

20     he intervened with me to have all of this accommodated and to have

21     professional people appointed to posts from the territories where these

22     regional and municipal leaders wanted particular people in particular

23     positions.  I think that that was the problem.  These were the maximalist

24     requests put by all political parties, and that is what it has to do

25     with.  It doesn't have to do with the top, the center, the republican

Page 4460

 1     level, but the municipal and regional levels.

 2             MR. TIEGER:  And, Your Honour, before we go too far, I should

 3     have tendered those -- both those documents.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, you haven't tendered the previous one, so --

 5             MR. TIEGER:  Correct.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  But I should stand corrected, but is it not the

 7     first time that we are hearing evidence of one of the participants in the

 8     intercepts?

 9             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, I agree, Your Honour.  I know previously we've

10     been MFI'ing the intercepts, but I think in this case it false within the

11     guide-lines for admission.

12             JUDGE KWON:  I recall the Chamber's ruling that when we decided

13     to mark for identification all those intercepts, we said the authenticity

14     and reliability of intercepts should be established by further evidence,

15     such as hearing from the relevant intercept operators or the participants

16     in the intercepted conversation, themselves.  So unless there's a

17     challenge from the Defence as to the legality or something else, if the

18     witness confirms the content of the intercept, i.e., that such

19     conversation -- if he confirms such a conversation took place, the

20     Chamber is minded to admit the intercepts.

21             Do you like to comment on that, Mr. Robinson?

22             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.

23             We would ask that they be excluded under Rule 95.  We accept that

24     with respect to Rule 89, the foundation has been laid for intercept

25     evidence, but nevertheless these particular intercepts were before the

Page 4461

 1     war, and as I understand it, it was illegal -- they were illegally

 2     intercepted.  And, therefore, under Rule 95, it's our position not to

 3     admit them in this Tribunal, where we try to maintain the highest

 4     standards of international justice, that it would be antithetical to the

 5     interests of justice to admit illegally-intercepted conversations.

 6             Thank you.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just add something?

 9             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think so at this time.

10             Mr. Robinson and Mr. Karadzic, the Chamber is of the view the

11     Chamber will benefit from having a submission in writing from you.

12             In the meantime, we'll mark those intercepts for identification.

13     And no doubt the Prosecution will have an opportunity to respond to the

14     submission from the Defence.

15             MR. TIEGER:  We certainly will, Your Honour.  This matter has

16     been raised repeatedly in this institution, and the Tribunal has ruled on

17     it repeatedly and consistently.

18             JUDGE KWON:  We'll give an MFI number to those intercepts, 113

19     and 165.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  65 ter 30113 will be MFI

21     P1079, and 65 ter 30165 will be MFI P1080.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I -- may I just

23     say something?

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Mandic.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've already said that, and I state

Page 4462

 1     that once again.  I do not recall the individuals that were being

 2     discussed here.  I do not remember this conversation, but I did recognise

 3     my own voice and that of Dr. Karadzic.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 5             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. Mandic, I want to turn next to a conversation

 6     which is 65 ter 30291.  That's found at tab 3 of your binder.  That took

 7     place on the 30th of September, 1991.  And I wanted to play that in

 8     connection with the question of how regularly you were in contact with

 9     Dr. Karadzic in connection with these matters.

10                           [Audio-clip played]

11             THE INTERPRETER:  [Voiceover] "Good afternoon."

12             "Good afternoon."

13             "Mr. Karadzic, please.  Deputy minister calling."

14             "Good afternoon."

15             "Dr. Karadzic?"

16             "One moment, please, deputy Mandic is on the line."

17             "Thank you."

18             "Hello."

19             "Hello."

20             "Yes."

21             "Good afternoon, Mr. President, how are you?"

22             "Very well, thank you."

23             "Well, I don't know what, we called on Friday and finished it."

24             "I was in Belgrade on Friday, Mr. President."

25             "Aha."

Page 4463

 1             "Went to visit my son."

 2             "And where is he?"

 3             "He's at the military academy up there."

 4             "Ah, nice.  Is he well?"

 5             "Excellent.  A bit homesick, he only just left, so I had to go,

 6     he was crying a bit and so on, but it will be okay."

 7             "Aha, aha."

 8             "Away from home, from his mother and so on."

 9             "Aha, yes, yes.  How long, when did he leave?"

10             "Well, some 10 or 15 days ago."

11             "Ah, he's in his first year then is he?"

12             "First year, yes, yes, military academy."

13             "Are you in your own office or with this guy, Selimovic?"

14             "Yes."

15             "With him?

16             "Yes, yes."

17             "Let me tell you, well I sent these guys for that job to be

18     definitely done."

19             "And regarding, who did you agree with Mr. President, regarding

20     that?"

21             "Hebib said ..."

22             "Hebib."

23             "For me to give five names to ..."

24             "Very well."

25             "To get a job over there at the fifth Administration where Vlaski

Page 4464

 1     was."

 2             "Aha, where Vlaski was, five of them is it ..."

 3             "Five, yes, because the SDA has, he said until, until, I don't

 4     know what now, I would like you to do that so that he doesn't, some

 5     gratitude, but anyway that is my basis."

 6             "Well, I'll get Hilmo, will do that, if Hebib agreed with you

 7     then there are no problems."

 8             "And shall I tell them that, I think you have, you have all of

 9     their documentation there except for one more.  You have four sets of

10     documents there."

11             "Four is it?  Get it for the last one and let them come and see

12     me."

13             "Okay."

14             "During the day, Mr. President."

15             "During the day."

16             "Let them come see me."

17             "Agreed.  Otherwise, anything else new?"

18             "Well, nothing really, no problems or anything."

19             "Aha, okay, agreed."

20             "Did you receive that Mr. President?"

21             "Regarding?"

22             "What Slavko brought you, the papers and such, the stuff I was

23     asking you about the other day."

24             "I think he did, I think he did, but I'm not sure, I think he

25     did."

Page 4465

 1             "Aha."

 2             "I think he did."

 3             "Okay."

 4             "Okay.  Now we have to be in touch almost daily."

 5             "Very well, Mr. President."

 6             "Agreed."

 7             "Talk to you later."

 8             "Have a nice day."

 9             "Cheers."

10             MR. TIEGER:

11        Q.   Again, Mr. Mandic, do you recognise the participants in that

12     conversation?

13        A.   Dr. Karadzic and myself.

14        Q.   Now, this conversation took place on the 30th of September, 1991.

15     I take it there was a lot going on at that time in connection with

16     personnel selection, and Dr. Karadzic asked you to be in touch almost

17     daily?

18        A.   I think at that time we were already behind with filling

19     vacancies, and that was becoming a problem in the Ministry of the Police.

20     If we know that early that year we took these jobs and we were about to

21     make personnel changes and reforms within two or three months, and we

22     were already in September, we were already six months behind with the

23     appointments, and it was becoming a problem already at the level of the

24     whole Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I was appointed in late

25     September/early October, and the personnel changes and the appointment of

Page 4466

 1     appropriate people in appropriate positions had not been completed, and

 2     that was a problem.

 3             MR. TIEGER:  And, Your Honour, I would tender that to be marked

 4     for identification at this stage.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI P1081, Your Honours.

 7             MR. TIEGER:

 8        Q.   Mr. Mandic, you mentioned, during the course of this morning,

 9     various maximalist demands, unreasonable demands, and so on, emanating

10     from the national parties.  At some point, did you raise the issue or

11     suggest the possibility before your MUP colleagues of arresting both

12     Dr. Karadzic and Izetbegovic in order to forestall ethnic tensions?

13        A.   Well, that was just before the war, when, at a meeting of the

14     professional collegium, Mr. Alija Delimustafic said at one point, Let's

15     arrest our bosses, Mr. Izetbegovic, Radovan Karadzic, and Mate Boban.

16     But he insisted on Karadzic and Izetbegovic.  And then, Between us, we

17     will resolve all these problems in peace.  Of course, that was not

18     possible even, because Mr. Izetbegovic was the elected president, head of

19     state.  The police couldn't arrest him.  But they could arrest

20     Mr. Karadzic.  And that was just a conversation, thinking aloud, between

21     me and Alija Delimustafic, knowing that we must do something, because we

22     could no longer stand all that pressure and all that was going on in the

23     police, in the Ministry of the Interior.  It was said more in jest than

24     seriously, because in effect, under the law, we did not have the right to

25     arrest the head of state.  But I know that after that meeting, people ran

Page 4467

 1     to Alija Izetbegovic to tell him that as a joke, and some sychophants

 2     from among the Serbs went to see Karadzic and tell him, Look, these

 3     people and Alija Delimustafic want to arrest you.  Of course, that was

 4     not serious.  I knew very well what was possible and what was not, and we

 5     didn't mean it, of course.  But that there were suggestions like that,

 6     yes, it was true.

 7        Q.   Now, you spoke yesterday about the dispatch that you sent on the

 8     31st of March, 1992, splitting the MUP.  I wanted to ask you some

 9     questions, relatively briefly, I hope, about the backdrop to the sending

10     of that dispatch.

11             First of all, let me turn your attention to 65 ter 00217, and

12     those are the minutes of the first meeting of the Ministerial Council of

13     the Assembly of the Serbian People of Bosnia-Herzegovina, which was held

14     on the 11th of January, 1992.  And I believe you had an opportunity to

15     see and discuss that document during the course of your Krajisnik

16     testimony.

17             Do you see that document in front of you now, Mr. Mandic?

18        A.   Yes, Mr. Tieger.

19        Q.   And just to set the backdrop to that document:  You recall the

20     establishment of the Bosnian Serb Assembly on the 24th of October, 1991?

21        A.   I know that it was established, but I was not there at the

22     Assembly at the time.  I know it was established on that date, but I did

23     not participate in that founding session.

24        Q.   And the establishment of the Bosnian Serb Assembly was a response

25     to the declaration in the Bosnian Assembly, the Joint Assembly,

Page 4468

 1     concerning independence; is that right?

 2        A.   I don't know.  I'm not sure.  I was not a part of that,

 3     Mr. Tieger.

 4        Q.   Well, let's look at -- and one more question, and that is that:

 5     Following the establishment of the Bosnian Serb Assembly, the Council of

 6     Ministers was established, and you were aware of that; correct?

 7        A.   I read that in the Serbian Gazette 1/92, the gazette of the

 8     Serbian people.

 9        Q.   And looking at the minutes of the first meeting of the

10     Ministerial Council on 11 January 1992, and turning to the second page in

11     English, and if we could also change the B/C/S page for the witness's

12     benefit, if you look at item number 2, "Execution of tasks resulting from

13     the declaration of the promulgation of the Republic of the Serbian People

14     of Bosnia and Herzegovina."  And, Mr. Mandic, you were aware that on

15     January 9th, the Assembly declared the promulgation of the Republic of

16     the Serbian people of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is, the republic was

17     declared?

18        A.   Probably.  I'm not sure.  I did not participate in that.  I'm a

19     witness here, and I'm going to tell only about things that I know for

20     sure.  When I'm called here as an expert, then I'll explain this.

21        Q.   Looking at the second paragraph under that item, that is, the

22     execution of tasks resulting from the declaration, it states:

23             "It was concluded that the priorities springing from the

24     declaration included the defining of ethnic territory, establishment of

25     government organs in the territory, and the economic disempowerment of

Page 4469

 1     the current authorities in the Socialist Republic of BH," that is,

 2     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 3             And, Mr. Mandic, I bring this to your attention because at a

 4     meeting you attended on the 11th of February, 1992, in Banja Luka, the

 5     position of the Council of Ministers was raised.  And if I could draw

 6     your attention to 65 ter 05413.

 7             And, Your Honour, with respect to the previous document, that's

 8     an associated exhibit.  I can tender it now or it can come in along with

 9     the other exhibits associated with the previously-admitted 92 ter, as the

10     Court wishes.

11             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber hasn't discussed how to deal with those

12     associated exhibits, given that he's now a Chamber witness.  But in the

13     meantime, I would like you to tender as you deal with them, in the course

14     of your --

15             MR. TIEGER:  Very well, Your Honour.  Then I do tender that

16     document.

17             JUDGE KWON:  It will be admitted.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  As P1082, Your Honours.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I say something?

20             I was not able to have admitted a single document if the witness

21     did not know anything about it.

22             JUDGE KWON:  I took it that you are of the opinion that all those

23     minutes should be admitted.  The Chamber will discuss it.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger, do you like to reply to Mr. Karadzic's

Page 4470

 1     intervention?

 2             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, I take this to be, and I assume I'm

 3     going to receive an affirmation to this, that this is more in the nature

 4     of Dr. Karadzic expressing some dissatisfaction with the responses to his

 5     previous submissions.  I understood the Defence on repeated occasions to

 6     be encouraging the admission of all such documents, as the Court has

 7     noted.  And, in fact, there was if not a joint submission, a mutual

 8     submission, much earlier with respect to such documents, beginning with

 9     the Assembly records, and then discussing other forms of official

10     contemporaneous documentation.  I'm confident these are records that the

11     Defence has asserted to the Prosecution repeatedly it wants to have

12     admitted.  I don't think they've resiled from that position.  So as I

13     understand it, this is more in the nature of some observation about the

14     admission of the documents he tendered, rather than the admissibility of

15     this particular document or documents of this type.

16             This document should be admitted.  I would have laid a much more

17     elaborate foundation if there was any reason to think that the Defence

18     position was otherwise.  We're going to spend a lot of unnecessary time,

19     as Mr. Robinson, himself, has previously noted, if there isn't a

20     consensus about the admission of contemporaneous official records of this

21     type.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

23             However, the Chamber finds that the consistency is a great

24     important factor, to be consistent with our previous practice.  We'll

25     mark it for identification, so that Exhibit P1082 is marked for

Page 4471

 1     identification.  Thank you.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may say so, Mr. Tieger is

 3     right, it's a question of principle, not of substance.  Of course, the

 4     documents that Republika Srpska produced are not going to be disputed by

 5     us, but I'm talking about the principle.  I was not able to have admitted

 6     even documents that the witnesses were aware of.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Your point has been taken, Mr. Karadzic.

 8             Let's continue, Mr. Tieger.

 9             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you.

10        Q.   Mr. Mandic, have you in front of you now the minutes of a meeting

11     held in Banja Luka on the 11th of February, 1992?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   You attended that meeting; correct?

14        A.   Correct.

15        Q.   And at that meeting, Mr. Stanisic raised, for the benefit of

16     those in attendance, the position of the Council of Ministers; is that

17     right?

18        A.   Is there a question, or should I give a comment, or what?

19        Q.   No.  I'm asking to you confirm that at that meeting, Mr. Stanisic

20     informed those present about the decisions of the Ministerial Council and

21     the position of the Ministerial Council.

22        A.   Yes, you can see that from the first sentence, where Stanisic

23     says that in the Socialist Republic of BH, the territory under the

24     Serbian control, that control must be felt.  I don't know what control

25     he's talking about, when at that time it was still a unified

Page 4472

 1     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I can't understand this sentence uttered by

 2     Stanisic.

 3        Q.   Well, in fact, Mr. Stanisic explained at the meeting, did he not,

 4     that work was to be done on the organisation of a Serbian MUP, starting

 5     with municipal and regional branches and working up to a Serbian

 6     ministry, itself?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And if we look at the conclusions of that meeting on the last

 9     page or second-to-last page in English.  That's page 4, and for the B/C/S

10     it will be the previous page.  And, in fact, one more page back,

11     beginning at Conclusions 1 through 5.  Thank you.

12             And that indicates, among other things, that:

13             "The Serbian Collegium, the SR BH MUP, is instructed to carry out

14     all preparations necessary for the functioning of the Serbian MUP after

15     the promulgation of the Serbian Republic of BH Constitution.  "

16             That's conclusion number 3.

17             And conclusion number 5:

18             "Not a single decision regarding staffing policies in the SR BH

19     MUP will be implemented without the approval of

20     Deputy Minister Momcilo Mandic ."

21             And just for clarification, Mr. Mandic, when there's a reference

22     to SR BH MUP in this document, is that a reference to the joint MUP, and

23     when there's a reference to the Serbian MUP, is that a reference to the

24     anticipated Bosnian Serb MUP?

25        A.   I really don't know.  But this part, regarding the SR BH MUP,

Page 4473

 1     that's the joint MUP, for sure.  Because I mention this assistant

 2     minister.  That means it's a reference to the joint MUP.  Where did you

 3     see the Serbian MUP?  There's a reference only to the Serbian collegium.

 4     Within the joint MUP, a collegium was established including only Serbian

 5     members, Serbian staff members.  In item 1, item 7, 5, there are

 6     references to a collegium of Serb staff members in the joint MUP.

 7        Q.   Conclusion number 3, the last four words of which are

 8     "Srpska Republika, BiH," and "Srpska MUP" previous to that.

 9        A.   After the adoption of the Constitution of the Serbian Republic

10     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  After the adoption of the Constitution, that's

11     probably what was meant.  Once formal requirements are met for the

12     establishment of the Serbian MUP, that should be done, and that was done

13     on the 31st of March, 1992, after the Law on Internal Affairs of the

14     Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina came into effect.  And I explained

15     that in great detail in the Stanisic and Zupljanin case, Mr. Tieger.

16        Q.   And item number 18, finally, of the conclusions, if we could look

17     quickly at that.  And that was to inform the Council of Ministers of the

18     conclusions of this meeting; is that correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And I didn't ask you this previously, Mr. Mandic, but this was a

21     meeting attended by all leading -- well, virtually all leading members of

22     the -- Serbian members of the joint MUP at that time; correct?  Yourself,

23     Mr. Stanisic, Mr. Kljajic, Mr. Draskovic, Mr. Zupljanin, Mr. Bjelosevic,

24     et cetera?

25        A.   Yes, correct.

Page 4474

 1        Q.   And, Mr. Mandic, when you ultimately sent the dispatch on the

 2     31st of March splitting the MUP --

 3        A.   Mr. Tieger, I did not send a dispatch on the division of the MUP.

 4     I sent a dispatch on the establishment of the Serbian MUP.

 5        Q.   When you sent that dispatch, that was at reflection of the

 6     decisions of the Assembly in establishing the Constitution and the Law on

 7     Internal Affairs and the decisions of the Council of Ministers; correct?

 8        A.   Correct, and all that is written in the dispatch that I sent, all

 9     the legal grounds and instructions.  And everything is correctly stated

10     in that enactment, in that document.

11        Q.   And in doing so, you were acting on instructions from the

12     political leadership of the Serb people; correct?

13        A.   I acted following by the decisions of the Assembly, the Law on

14     Internal Affairs, and the Cutileiro Plan adopted in Lisbon, the so-called

15     Sarajevo Agreement.  The political leadership at that time was not aware

16     of that dispatch.  They were somewhere abroad in Europe, attending

17     negotiations.  But since the legal requirements had been met, that is,

18     eight days had elapsed from the publication of the Law on Internal

19     Affairs in the "Official Gazette," and I was informed of that by

20     Minister Velibor Ostojic, the legal requirements for sending that

21     dispatch, in other words, the establishment of the Serbian MUP had been

22     met.

23        Q.   And it was the culmination of the process you've just spoken

24     about; the meeting of February 11th, the Council of Ministers, the

25     establishment of the Assembly, the declaration of the promulgation of the

Page 4475

 1     state, the Constitution, and the Law on Internal Affairs?

 2        A.   The meeting in Banja Luka was more a reflection -- an expression

 3     of discontent with the work in the joint MUP, not so much the

 4     establishment of the Serbian MUP.  Many of the 15 conclusions talk about

 5     the shortcomings of the work in the joint MUP.  Demands are made for

 6     everything to be done legally and legitimately, and only a couple of

 7     conclusions talk about the establishment of the Serbian MUP.  The

 8     professional -- the hand of the professional collegium was forced, in a

 9     way.  All these steps were dictated by something else.

10             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, I note the time.  I don't know what

11     time the Court wishes to break, but I was a little late yesterday and I

12     don't wish to be so today.

13             JUDGE KWON:  I should have informed the parties that unless

14     there's some objection from the parties, we are minded to in a somewhat

15     extended form, so we are minded to have three 90-minute sessions today as

16     well, if the biorhythm of the accused can bear with it.  So the first

17     session to 10.30.  The second session will be from 11.00 to 12.30.  The

18     third session, after having some 45 minutes' break due to some

19     circumstances of the Chamber, the third session will be from quarter past

20     1.00 to quarter to 3.00.

21             So we have five more minutes, Mr. Tieger.  If you have some

22     problems --

23             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, it would be extremely helpful to know

24     in advance in future.  I have something I would need to change.  I will

25     endeavour to do that.

Page 4476

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Then we'll find out.  What time would you like to

 2     conclude for today?

 3             MR. TIEGER:  Well, at the moment I would have to conclude at

 4     2.00, but --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  2.00.  Okay, we'll bear that in mind.

 6             Let's continue until 10.30, and the Chamber will come up with a

 7     suggestion.  Thank you for your information.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Before Mr. Tieger begins, can I

 9     just say something?

10             We have sent a submission concerning the time when the Defence

11     will commence its cross-examination.  We are concerned that these changes

12     might give us even less time for preparing our cross-examination.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  We'll consider the matter as well.

14             I see the time.  We'll have a break now for half an hour.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, excuse me.

16             During the break, can I go to my hotel room to take a pill for my

17     stomach?

18             JUDGE KWON:  As long as you come back in half an hour, I see no

19     problem, Mr. Mandic.

20             THE WITNESS:  Ten minutes, ten minutes.

21             JUDGE KWON:  I hope the Victims and Witnesses Section can deal

22     with it.  Thank you.

23                           --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger, before you resume with the questioning

Page 4477

 1     of Mr. Mandic, the Chamber would like to go back to the intercepts that

 2     were played in court this morning.

 3             Having been played in court and discussed with the witness, the

 4     accused objected to their admission on the basis that they were obtained

 5     before the war, and thus illegally.  As a result, the Chamber decided to

 6     mark it for identification, the intercepts, as Exhibit P1079 and

 7     MFI P1080 -- I'm sorry, and MFI P1081, until such time as it made a

 8     ruling on the accused's submission concerning legality.  However, in

 9     making this decision, the Chamber, mainly myself, overlooked the fact

10     that it has already ruled on this issue in its decision on the

11     Prosecution's first motion for judicial notice of documentary evidence,

12     dated 31st March 2010.  That ruling can be found in paragraph 10 of the

13     decision, and provides that the admission of intercepts into evidence

14     does not depend on whether they were obtained legally or illegally.

15     Rather, the Chamber must simply be satisfied that the requirements for

16     admissibility of evidence, provided by Rule 89, are met, and that there

17     are no grounds for exclusion under Rule 95.

18             The Chamber, therefore, reconsiders its earlier decision to MFI

19     the relevant intercepts, and instead, given that the witness is one of

20     the participants in the conversation played, finds that all the

21     requirements of Rule 89 have been met in relation to them.  Accordingly,

22     these intercepts should be admitted into evidence.

23             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, I apologise.  I also

24     overlooked that decision.  I'll go back and look at it now.  And if for

25     some reason we don't feel we've made all the arguments under Rule 95 that

Page 4478

 1     we would like to, we can make a written submission, but we understand

 2     now.  I'll go back and look at that, and I apologise for not bringing

 3     that to your attention.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you very much, Mr. Robinson.

 5             And as to the Defence motion for an extension of time before he

 6     starts the cross-examination, Mr. Tieger, I would like to hear from you,

 7     if possible, at the end of today's session.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  Absolutely, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

10             And as for the scheduling for today, we'll sit until -- for this

11     second session, we'll sit until 12.30, and the third session will be just

12     1.00 to 2.00.

13             Let's continue, Mr. Tieger.

14             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

15        Q.   Mr. Mandic, I want to turn next to some issues that were raised

16     during the course of your testimony in the Stanisic/Zupljanin case.  And

17     in that connection, I'd like to turn next to D88, and that's English

18     page 60 and B/C/S page 75.  And I want to -- I'll be showing you a

19     portion of a speech by Mr. Vojo Kupresanin that you were shown during the

20     course of your Stanisic/Zupljanin testimony.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger, have we dealt with the exhibit you dealt

22     with previously before we adjourned?

23             MR. TIEGER:  Perhaps not, Your Honour, and my --

24             JUDGE KWON:  It will be admitted, unless there's any objection

25     from the Defence.  Yes, they will be admitted.

Page 4479

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 05413 will be Exhibit P1083.

 2             MR. TIEGER:  75, please.

 3        Q.   Mr. Mandic, you were read out a portion of what Mr. Kupresanin

 4     said on that occasion, and it was:

 5             "I am against any kind of joint institution with Muslims and

 6     Croats.  I personally consider them to be our natural enemies.  You

 7     already know what natural enemies are, and we can never again live

 8     together.  We can never again do anything together."

 9             And you were asked whether you heard others, apart from

10     Mr. Kupresanin, expressing such sentiments in the period of time before

11     the outbreak of the conflict, and your answer was -- sorry, Mr. Mandic.

12        A.   Yes, yes, please go ahead, Mr. Tieger.

13        Q.   And your answer was:

14             "I've been listening to the same things from 1990 until 2010."

15        A.   This is the first time I see this thing with Mr. Kupresanin, this

16     session.  I did not attend that Assembly session when Mr. Kupresanin said

17     this.  I think that it had to do with the appointment of some personnel

18     in the field of the judiciary, if I'm not mistaken.

19        Q.   Now, if you'll focus on my question, Mr. Mandic.  At page 9443 of

20     the Stanisic/Zupljanin transcript, the excerpt I just read out to you was

21     provided and read out at that time, and the reason was because you were

22     then asked whether you had heard others, apart from him, express such

23     sentiments.  So the issue was not -- the issue was the focus on the

24     expression about natural enemies and living together, rather than your

25     attendance at that particular session.

Page 4480

 1        A.   9443?  Is it the Krajisnik case or the Stanisic case?

 2        Q.   Stanisic case.  In any event, Mr. Mandic, is hearing that excerpt

 3     read out, "I personally consider them to be natural enemies, you already

 4     know what natural enemies are, and we can never live together," is it

 5     correct that you'd been listening to such sentiments from 1990 until

 6     2010?

 7        A.   Could you please read out my answer?  I cannot recall that detail

 8     in relation to that Assembly meeting.

 9        Q.   "Q.  Now, did you hear others, apart from Mr. Kupresanin, express

10     these kinds of sentiments?

11             "A.  Are you referring to the period before the war, during the

12     war, or after the war?

13             "Q.  I'm referring to the period before the conflict broke out in

14     April 1992.

15             "A.  I'd been listening to the same things from 1990 until 2010."

16             And I'll continue because it's relevant:

17             "Yes.  At the moment, I'm concerned with whether these sort of

18     sentiments were expressed by others in the government or in the Assembly,

19     apart from Mr. Kupresanin."

20             And your answer, Mr. Mandic:

21             "Believe me, Madam Prosecutor, that there were other people who

22     were playing on the Serbian card and trying to ingratiate themselves to

23     Karadzic and others.  After that, they would go with their Muslim and

24     Croat brothers and have coffee."

25        A.   Yes, yes, that's my opinion, yes.  I confirm what I said there to

Page 4481

 1     Ms. Korner.

 2        Q.   And at page 9523, you also testified that there were people in

 3     the Assembly who wanted a mono-ethnic state, and you identified some of

 4     them; Mr. Brdjanin, Mr. Prstojevic, Mr. Milojevic.  Do you recall that?

 5        A.   Yes, yes.

 6        Q.   And you mentioned, during the course of your testimony as well,

 7     that Prstojevic was another who sought to ingratiate himself with

 8     Mr. Karadzic through the expression of such sentiments.  Do you recall

 9     that?

10        A.   I think that he was trying to ingratiate himself with

11     Mr. Krajisnik, rather than Mr. Karadzic, because he was deputy and

12     represented Ilidza.

13        Q.   Well, is it fair to say he would have been trying to ingratiate

14     himself with the Bosnian Serb leadership, including Mr. Krajisnik and

15     Dr. Karadzic?

16        A.   I think Mr. Krajisnik only, that he was trying to ingratiate

17     himself to him, because he was the deputy and the president of the

18     municipality.

19        Q.   Well, in any event, Mr. Mandic, I want to ask you about some of

20     those people you spoke about, some of their positions, and some of their

21     interactions or discussions about or connections with the Bosnian Serb

22     leadership.

23             First of all, let me ask you about Mr. Kupresanin.

24        A.   I don't know Mr. Kupresanin at all.  I never communicated with

25     him, I never talked to him.  I think that he was president or some high

Page 4482

 1     official in the SAO Krajina.  I just saw him a few times at some Assembly

 2     sessions that I attended.  I don't know anything about the man.  I know

 3     that he was one of the right-wing persons that we are discussing now.

 4        Q.   And my interest in asking you about -- my focus in asking you

 5     about Mr. Kupresanin is not about the depth of your knowledge about

 6     Mr. Kupresanin, but about your indication earlier that the sentiments he

 7     was expressing were those that you were familiar with from others in the

 8     Assembly or in other positions of authority.

 9             First --

10        A.   For the most part, these right-wing sentiments or, rather, the

11     Serb nationalism, it was expressed in the Assembly, where some people,

12     like this Kupresanin, whom I really don't know - perhaps I saw him about

13     twice ever in my life at these Assembly sessions - and this came to

14     expression at Assembly sessions.  After these Assembly sessions of the

15     Serbian people, or the Joint Assembly, they would go and have coffee with

16     those same people that they had spoken out against, that is, Muslims and

17     Croats.  That did happen.  I viewed that from the side, viewing it as a

18     person from government, from the police.

19             Now, were they trying to ingratiate themselves with the people in

20     this way?  Were they trying to ingratiate themselves with the president

21     of the Assembly or the president of Republika Srpska?  That, I really

22     don't know.  But, anyway, it seemed like false nationalism to me.  It was

23     aimed at the public, as it were.  That was how I experienced it.

24        Q.   Were you aware that Mr. Kupresanin was a member of the SDS Main

25     Board?

Page 4483

 1        A.   No, no.  I don't know anything about the man, really.  He's from

 2     Krajina, Banja Luka.  I don't know anything about him.  I just know the

 3     people from Sarajevo and from around Sarajevo.

 4        Q.   Well, you were correct that he had a position of authority in the

 5     SAO Krajina.  He was the SAO Krajina Assembly president.

 6        A.   I know that he held a high position in the SAO Krajina, but I

 7     didn't know which one.  And I know that at these sessions, these

 8     assemblies, he represented the SAO Krajina.

 9        Q.   Well, you mentioned the expressions at the Assembly sessions.

10     Let me ask you to look at some examples of that, if we may.

11             If we could turn to D84; in English, page 26, and B/C/S, page 41.

12             And here we see Mr. Kupresanin speaking again, talking first

13     about the vast territories where Serb municipalities are possible in the

14     region, and the need to annex those territories.

15             And if we turn to -- leave it on the same page in English, and

16     turn to page 42 in the B/C/S, please.

17             Mr. Kupresanin says:

18             "Why are we doing this?

19             "I personally think that our living space and the territory in

20     which we live and work is endangered, and we have to avert that danger.

21     Actually, we have to prevent Muslims from moving into our territories and

22     regions."

23             Mr. Mandic, is that another example of the kind of sentiment you

24     heard expressed in the Assembly and elsewhere --

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection, objection.

Page 4484

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, the witness does not know

 3     Vojo Kupresanin, and he cannot speculate about what Vojo Kupresanin was

 4     thinking.  I was never allowed any such thing, not anything close to

 5     that.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I really cannot

 7     analyse now what Mr. Kupresanin was thinking and what he was saying.  I

 8     really don't know the man.  I did not attend these sessions.  I am a

 9     witness here.  I'm not an expert.  I cannot analyse his psyche and his

10     attitude towards other peoples.  I really don't know the man, and I

11     cannot analyse him now through these sentences.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Mandic was able to answer the question in

13     general terms, although he didn't know, personally, Mr. Kupresanin.  So

14     he may answer the question, if possible, in general terms again, as to

15     the general sentiment.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I said to Mr. Tieger,

17     and I repeat that once again, and I said it in the Stanisic case, among

18     the ranks of deputies, among the Serbian people in the Joint Assembly,

19     and in the Serbian Assembly, too, there were some right-wing persons,

20     nationalists, who advocated, well, a state of the Serb people without

21     other peoples and such-like.  But it seems to me that that kind of thing

22     can happen in any country in the world, any nation in the world, any

23     assembly in the world.  There was nothing unusual there, nothing that had

24     never happened before or has not happened since.  It really didn't say

25     anything special to me.

Page 4485

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Mandic.

 2             MR. TIEGER:

 3        Q.   And, Mr. Mandic, my -- with that understanding, I'm interested in

 4     knowing from you the -- we know that Mr. Kupresanin said this, and I'm

 5     interested in knowing from you whether you heard such sentiments

 6     expressed by others during the period 1991-1992; that is, that living

 7     space was endangered, that danger has to be averted, and that Muslims

 8     have to be prevented from moving into Serb territories.

 9        A.   I do not remember, Mr. Tieger, that anyone had said that.

10        Q.   So you were completely unfamiliar with such a sentiment; is that

11     what you're saying?

12             JUDGE MORRISON:  Mr. Tieger, that's an unfair analysis.  He

13     didn't say he was completely unfamiliar with such a sentiment.  He said

14     that he couldn't remember anybody actually saying it.

15             MR. TIEGER:  Well, I appreciate that, Your Honour, and maybe that

16     question should be clarified.

17        Q.   Mr. Mandic, apart from your inability at the moment to recall a

18     specific occasion or a specific person who said that, were you familiar

19     with that position among deputies of the Assembly, or members of the

20     government, or municipality representatives, during the period 1991/1992?

21        A.   Among the members of the government, as far as I can remember,

22     there weren't any.  As for the members of the Assembly or, rather, other

23     bodies, that is to say, Assembly, government, the executive, the

24     legislative, I am saying once again I cannot remember whether there were

25     other such people like Vojo Kupresanin.  This does not seem to be

Page 4486

 1     something that I remember, and I cannot state anything in that regard.

 2             However, I'm sure that as for the government -- as for official

 3     meetings of the government, such a tone was never used, and nothing like

 4     that was said about other peoples living in Bosnia-Herzegovina while I

 5     was in government.

 6        Q.   Well, we'll come to some of the positions of the government at a

 7     later stage, but I'm still interested in exploring with you the kinds of

 8     sentiments that were expressed at Assembly sessions; not only generally,

 9     but specifically by some of the people you mentioned during the course of

10     your Stanisic/Zupljanin testimony.

11             If we could --

12        A.   Could you give me an example, Mr. Tieger?

13             MR. TIEGER:  Sure.  If we could turn to 65 ter 00039.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Just for the record, this has been admitted as

15     Exhibit P921.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

17             MR. TIEGER:  And page 77 in the English, page 53 in the B/C/S,

18     please.

19             This is an Assembly session of 8 January 1993, and once again

20     this is Mr. Kupresanin - we'll turn to some of the others

21     shortly - saying:

22             "We say that the war was not necessary in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

23     The war in Bosnia and Herzegovina was necessary.  Right now, if we were

24     to count the population right now, there would be over," and I believe in

25     B/C/S that may be "around a million Muslims in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Page 4487

 1     Bosnia and Herzegovina would be predominantly a Serb republic.  Is war

 2     necessary in Serbia?  It's a horrible thing to say that the war would be

 3     necessary in Serbia.  If Serbia does not go into the war now, then in

 4     three to five years the Albanians and Muslims will entirely legally

 5     overtake the power in Belgrade, along with the Serb opposition.  This war

 6     was necessary for the Serb people."

 7        Q.   Now, Mr. Mandic, did you hear others express the view that the

 8     demographic change, affected by the war and the reduction in the Muslim

 9     population, was necessary for the Serb people?

10        A.   You're asking for my opinion.  First of all, let me explain to

11     you, Mr. Tieger, that this session took place in 1993, when I lived and

12     worked in Belgrade.

13             I repeat, I don't know the man, I don't know Vojo Kupresanin.  I

14     can't remember anybody saying anything to that effect.  I've never seen

15     these words before, the ones that you have just shown me.  These are not

16     nationalist words.  These are fascist words.  I don't have a comment.  I

17     don't know what you want me to say.

18        Q.   I just want to you answer the question, Mr. Mandic.  Did you hear

19     others say that; yes or no?

20        A.   I don't remember ever having heard anything of the kind.  I

21     really don't remember, I don't remember at all.

22        Q.   All right.  Let me ask you to look at one more remark by

23     Mr. Kupresanin, specifically.  And I want to turn to some others, but I'd

24     you to look at remarks by Mr. Kupresanin at a rally.

25             That's 65 ter 04234.

Page 4488

 1             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President.

 2             I'd like to interpose a relevancy objection here.

 3             If we were trying Tony Blair, for example, would something

 4     someone had said in the House of Commons during some debate be relevant

 5     at all to what Mr. Blair had acted or what he had thought?  And I think

 6     this is basically the same thing.  There are extremists in every

 7     government and every assembly, and how does it really advance the

 8     Prosecution's case to show to this witness or ask him to comment on

 9     comments like that in the trial of Dr. Karadzic.  So I would ask that

10     this line of questioning be ruled to be irrelevant and to lack probative

11     value.

12             Thank you.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger.

14             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, first of all, we're at the beginning of

15     hearing this witness's evidence, we're at the beginning of hearing

16     evidence about what was said in the Assembly, we're at the beginning of

17     hearing evidence with respect to the relationship between the persons who

18     expressed those views, other members of the Bosnian Serb leadership, and

19     Dr. Karadzic.  And, first of all, it's premature in that regard, and I

20     will be showing -- presenting some -- and I'm happy to present some

21     documents indicating that and fleshing that out generally.  But to take

22     these comments in the abstract at this moment, before the Court has an

23     opportunity to see the extent to which they were expressed, the reactions

24     to those expressions, the interaction with the people who expressed them

25     and the leadership, is, as I would indicate, premature and prevents the

Page 4489

 1     Court from receiving the evidence it needs to hear.

 2             And in addition, this is precisely the manner I understood that

 3     the Court wished to hear such evidence.  We talked about the submission

 4     of Assembly sessions in their entirety, and we still wish the Court to

 5     hear that, and we'll be in a position to, at that point, identify for the

 6     Court, with greater detail and with more clarity, the inter-relations I

 7     spoke about and the significance of these comments.  So there is value,

 8     we submit, to the Court having the opportunity to review these things.

 9             This witness has indicated under oath and in an earlier case that

10     he heard expressions, at least, of the desire for a mono-ethnic state by

11     multiple people in the Assembly.  I think the Court deserves an

12     opportunity to hear some of those.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Just for future purposes:  Mr. Mandic, do you

14     understand English?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can understand more than I can

16     say.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger and Mr. Robinson, although Mr. Mandic did

20     not know Mr. Kupresanin at the time, but I take it Mr. Tieger was

21     exploring the possibility whether there were instances Mr. Mandic heard

22     at the time as to the general circumstances, but then maybe the question

23     that has been put and answered several times, and it's more appropriate

24     to concentrate on the specific cases where Mr. Mandic was present, so

25     with this answer I would like you to move on to other instances.

Page 4490

 1             MR. TIEGER:  Well, before I do, Your Honour, if I may, I

 2     indicated to you we wanted to present to the Court some of the instances

 3     of the inter-relations and of linkage of the people mentioned to the

 4     Bosnian Serb leadership, and I'd like to explore a couple of those

 5     documents now.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 7             MR. TIEGER:  Can we turn --

 8             JUDGE MORRISON:  Sorry, Mr. Tieger, to interrupt, but it's plain

 9     that this witness's speculative comments on matters which may be hearsay,

10     if that is the effect of asking him questions about people he didn't know

11     or meetings that he didn't attend, it's -- I speak for myself, but it

12     must be evident to anybody that the probative value of that is extremely

13     small.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Let's move on, Mr. Tieger.

15             MR. TIEGER:  Well, Your Honour, I --

16             JUDGE KWON:  No, I --

17             MR. TIEGER:  Okay.  I wanted next to turn to 65 ter 30116.

18             Mr. Mandic, I want to play a portion of this.  This is at, I

19     believe, tab 2 of your binder of intercepts, and I'll be asking you about

20     some portions of those.  It's a conversation that took place on the 23rd

21     of July, 1991.

22             And if we could play a portion of that for Mr. Mandic and ask him

23     if he recognises the voices on the intercept.

24                           [Audio-clip played]

25             THE INTERPRETER:  [Voiceover] "And you are?"

Page 4491

 1             "Vojo Kupresanin."

 2             "Oh, it's you, Vojo.  I don't hear as well because of the TV.

 3     Just a second.  I'll get Radovan for you."

 4             "Hello."

 5             "Good evening.  Hi, President."

 6             "Good evening, Vojo.  What's up?"

 7             "Well, I was in --"

 8             "You were?"

 9             "I was in the neighbourhood."

10             "M'mm-hmm."

11             "And someone told me that you needed me, so I called you."

12             "M'mm-hmm."

13             "Was there some -- a meeting today in Dubica?"

14             "Well, I was in Srbac today, along with five municipalities of

15     ours regarding the Savo situation and that --"

16             "M'mm-hmm."

17             "We analysed the economic situation and problems as well as

18     assistance and the creation of staff.  But they were in Dubica last

19     night, well as far as I know, I wasn't there.  Well, actually, I wasn't

20     invited at all, I heard that Brdo and Grahovac were there."

21             "M'mm-hmm."

22             "And that they were with Babic."

23             "M'mm-hmm."

24             "And that the Party President Vukic was there."

25             "M'mm-hmm."

Page 4492

 1             "They made some kind of agreement, regarding the referendum.  I

 2     heard it today.  I also heard that a similar meeting, on that issue, at

 3     the level of the Krajina Assembly would be held in Banja Luka on Friday

 4     at approximately 3.00.  Actually, one would be at 3.00 and the other one

 5     would be later, around 5.00 or 6.00, in the community centre also, but in

 6     the bigger hall."

 7             "What referendum, referendum about what?"

 8             "Referendum about Krajina.  That's what I heard today."

 9             "Are they fucking nuts?"

10             "So, what do you suggest for us to do?"

11             "I beg you, Jovo, don't do things that you could be arrested for.

12     We're not entitled to violate the Constitution, we will now start

13     negotiations with the Muslims.  Today, we had two meetings with them

14     about the historical agreement between the Serbs and the Muslims to

15     maintain Yugoslavia.  And that, such things are happening here too and

16     the police here are informed about it and the Muslims are angry.  We are

17     negotiating with them to keep Bosnia in Yugoslavia to connect SAO Krajina

18     to Bosnia, to Bosanska Krajina, and you over there are doing such things

19     and destroying every political action we take."

20             "Well, it's good if it's like that.  It's okay, can I have

21     contact with you tomorrow?"

22             "Please, a meeting of the Main Board is on Thursday.  On

23     Thursday, we will finally clarify if that's the party that makes us over

24     there, whether those people that belong to the party that conducts such a

25     policy or if it's some other party.  We have to clarify this.  I can't do

Page 4493

 1     my job if somebody unauthorised does some things somewhere.  That is an

 2     unauthorised act.  That couldn't be done without the Main Board.  What

 3     were they thinking?"

 4             "You know, I would suggest that all the participants in the Main

 5     Board be present.

 6             "All of them.  Well, they are all obliged to come because the

 7     executive committee is to be formed.  They should all be there, they

 8     should all come, too, because we want to issue an epistle, which is, we

 9     are making steps that will most certainly create the best possible

10     results for us.  And to listen to Milan Babic, who only runs around

11     without asking anyone.  Maybe he thinks he's the smartest person in the

12     world?"

13             "So, my suggestion was the following:  Brdjanin, who is not a

14     member of the Main Board, as well as Grahovac, who is also not a member

15     of the Main Board should come to that session of the Main Board."

16             "Let them come."

17             "But that mistake, that kind of mistake, could that be fatal for

18     all of us?

19             "That was fatal, man!  At the first session, they will vote for

20     the termination of mandates and arrest all of you.  We may not be able to

21     say anything.  They even prepared complete documentation to show it to

22     John Major in England and to Mitterrand in France with all the evidence

23     that the Serbs are creating the greater Serbia, and now you're playing

24     right into their hands, as if they're paying you.  Fuck, man."

25             "Okay."

Page 4494

 1             "That's incredible to me.  Does someone over there think he is

 2     smarter than our political council?  We are not splitting up.  We had a

 3     meeting last night too."

 4             "Okay."

 5             "We are analysing, asking, asking a child, asking a great

 6     academic, we are working normally and then some fools show up making

 7     premature steps.

 8             "That will happen, Vojo, but they have to be responsible for

 9     that."

10             "Okay."

11             "They have to make a mistake.  They will definitely make a

12     mistake.  We know that."

13             "So shall I call you tomorrow?"

14             "Yes, call me, please, and make sure everyone is at the Main

15     Board --"

16             MR. TIEGER:  I'm sorry, I stopped that prematurely.  If we can

17     just continue for another minute.

18                           [Audio-clip played]

19             THE INTERPRETER:  [Voiceover] "-- the Main Board meeting on

20     Thursday.  They have to be responsible and disciplined towards their

21     party or otherwise I will come there and create a new party and new

22     officials.  Because, that's not the way it should be.  That's

23     irresponsible and could cause a catastrophe for the Serbian people."

24             "Okay."

25             "What the fuck else am I supposed to do?  Who created that

Page 4495

 1     fucking regionalisation?  Did I secretly influence you and produce

 2     documents where we determined what you were to do?  The one who wants to

 3     be born after seven months instead of nine months, will hardly survive.

 4     They want to create some kind of premature child and miss this chance

 5     forever.  Fuck, they are getting involved in this, like Tudjman is paying

 6     them."

 7             "Okay.  I will then talk about this tomorrow, very serious --

 8     tell them they're not authorised to make shit within this institution,

 9     that they have to form another party to do that.  And that I will come to

10     Bosanska Krajina and discredit them in front of the people.  As long as

11     this the Serbian Democratic Party, it's more difficult for me to deal

12     with our people than our opponents.  Fucking shit, is it normal that it's

13     harder for me with our people?  Are they all wethers or people?  Politics

14     is not run like that.  You are not to follow your wishes, but you are to

15     set up an option, and then you make a move in order to be a certain

16     winner.  Instead of keeping your plans on your forehead and then you play

17     into other people's hands."

18             "We had a meeting today in Srbac, and we made an agreement that

19     this would be our mutual position, but I think of Belgrade, I think of

20     Sarajevo, that's what I think of.  And that we all agree on what to do

21     and where to go.  I mean, we also don't have a whole lot of information.

22     Maybe we are not supposed to have those pieces of information."

23             "Vojo, I have said:  Now we have to create a structure of the

24     region, realistic structure, which means that we are to form the Culture

25     Fund and SDK Public Auditing Service.  So all the money should go through

Page 4496

 1     one SDK, the Krajina SDK.  So, these kinds of realistic moves, we are not

 2     making any spectacular political moves, until they make a mistake,

 3     because we do everything within the Constitution.  Milan Babic didn't

 4     form the SAO Krajina before Croatia changed the Constitution and violated

 5     their obligation towards the Serbs."

 6             "Yes, yes."

 7             "So we have to wait for them to violate the Constitution.  When

 8     they do that, we have everything prepared.  I will meet tomorrow and I

 9     will tell them what you have just told me and I'll let you know tomorrow

10     and the day after about how everything goes."

11             "Yes, please.  And please be responsible towards politics, even

12     children wouldn't --"

13             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Would you please switch off your

14     microphone.  Otherwise, the interpreters cannot actually hear the tape.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second -- is that what you said?  Yes, thank

16     you.

17             Let's continue.

18                           [Audio-clip played]

19             THE INTERPRETER:  [Voiceover] "Yes, please.  And please be

20     responsible towards politics, even children wouldn't do such things."

21             "Well, I wasn't there last night.  I didn't avoid that but they

22     didn't invite me.  I don't know why.  Today I have a meeting in Srbac and

23     some people, who were there, Ivastanin was there and he told me what had

24     happened.  I told you what he had told me, and now you told me about the

25     possible consequences and that's a very serious thing for me."

Page 4497

 1             "Yes, okay.  So please call me soon and don't let any mistakes

 2     occur."

 3             "Okay."

 4             "And I see you at the Main Board on Thursday.

 5             "I will call you on your -- home number."

 6             "Okay.  Call me late in the evening."

 7             "Okay."

 8             "Deal."

 9             MR. TIEGER:

10        Q.   Mr. Mandic, when you said in the Stanisic/Zupljanin case that

11     Mr. Kupresanin and others were trying to ingratiate themselves with

12     members of the Bosnian Serb leadership through the expression of such

13     sentiments, you were aware, weren't you, that Mr. Karadzic had extensive

14     contact with leaders of the regions and the municipalities throughout

15     Bosnia and Herzegovina, and in particular the areas ultimately claimed by

16     the Bosnian Serbs?

17        A.   No, I wasn't aware of Karadzic's contacts with his political

18     associates.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  Mr. Tieger implies that

20     we wanted to appropriate our own territories.  How can one appropriate

21     territories where one has lived forever?

22             JUDGE KWON:  That's a matter for your cross-examination,

23     Mr. Karadzic.  The witness has already answered the question.

24             Let's move on.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But I will not cross-examine

Page 4498

 1     Mr. Tieger, will I?

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Let's move on, Mr. Tieger.

 3             MR. TIEGER:

 4        Q.   Mr. Mandic, you were aware, through your dealings with

 5     Mr. Karadzic in the context of personnel selections for the MUP, that he

 6     had extensive contacts with municipal leaders and regional leaders

 7     throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina, weren't you?

 8        A.   No, I was not aware of his contacts, but I know in certain

 9     instances that some people, as I've already explained, used the party and

10     the president of the party to impose some of their staff arrangements on

11     the ground.  Those were very rare instances, but you have all that

12     documented in intercepts.  And that happened in the second half of 1991,

13     when major problems had occurred because the staff policies agreed in

14     Bosnia-Herzegovina were not implemented, in terms of the police.

15        Q.   I want to look at a rally and some speeches at that rally

16     attended by a number of the people you mentioned and members of the

17     Bosnian Serb leadership.

18             And if we could turn to 65 ter 04234.

19             JUDGE KWON:  In the meantime, would you like to mark for

20     identification --

21             MR. TIEGER:  I'm sorry, that's 40 -- yes, Your Honour.  Thank you

22     very much.

23             JUDGE KWON:  -- the intercept?

24             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, thank you.

25             JUDGE KWON:  That will be marked for identification.

Page 4499

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI P10841.

 2             MR. TIEGER:  I'm sorry, the document is 65 ter 40035.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  But in the previous intercept, Mr. Mandic, did you

 4     identify Mr. Karadzic's voice there?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I did.

 6                           [Video-clip played]

 7             MR. TIEGER:  If we could stop that for a moment.

 8        Q.   Mr. Mandic, as mentioned, this is a rally conducted on 21st of

 9     August, 1994.  And do you recognise the person speaking on the screen?

10        A.   I see a TV reporter, and I can see a name, Predrag Radic.  Is

11     that it?

12             MR. TIEGER:  No.  Let's continue with clip 2 of that, and

13     we'll --

14             JUDGE KWON:  I'm sorry.  Are you watching a video-clip or

15     watching a transcript?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Video-clip.  There's a TV reporter

17     and there is Predrag Radic --

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- on the screen.

20             MR. TIEGER:  I think it's difficult to understand why Mr. Mandic

21     might have the beginning of the rally rather than the clip that is,

22     I think, in front most of us at the moment.

23             JUDGE KWON:  I had difficulty how come he was seeing a name.

24     Yes, he was watching it.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we be given the exact 65 ter

Page 4500

 1     number?  We're not sure that we have the exact number.

 2             MR. TIEGER:  40035.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Are you able to identify the person who is speaking

 5     there?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  The only person I can identify

 7     is one of the escorts to Mr. Karadzic.  And I believe that this person

 8     with the moustache is Stojan Zupljanin, he looks like him.  And the

 9     speaker, I don't know who that is.  The man sporting a moustache is

10     probably Stojan Zupljanin.  And this person here is one of Mr. Karadzic's

11     escorts.  And I don't know the speaker, I don't know who that is.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Mandic.

13             Mr. Tieger.

14             MR. TIEGER:  Okay.  Let's continue that excerpt.  This is

15     Mr. Kupresanin speaking, as we can see in transcript of the rally.  Let's

16     hear a portion of what he has to say.

17                           [Video-clip played]

18             THE INTERPRETER:  [Voiceover] "There's no Muslim state in the

19     Serbian land, the land that has been ours forever.  There is no Muslim

20     people, and the entire world knows this."

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise.  Could we pause for a

22     moment?

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There is a major problem with the

25     translation.  He didn't say "there's no Muslim state."  He said "there's

Page 4501

 1     no Islamic state."  The difference is huge.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that will be checked into later on by the CLSS,

 3     and with that caveat, we'll continue.

 4                           [Video-clip played]

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  [Voiceover] "There are only Serbian people in

 6     these parts.  There are Serbs who are Orthodox, Serbs who are Catholic,

 7     and Serbs who are Muslim.

 8             "Under 6, we must urgently determine Serbian territories and

 9     borders and present them to the Serbian people for their acceptance,

10     because there is no state without a set territory, a territory demarcated

11     and borders demarcated.  Bosnia is an eternally Serbian land."

12             MR. TIEGER:  Show number 3.

13                           [Video-clip played]

14             THE INTERPRETER:  [Voiceover] "Mr. Radoslav Brdjanin, people's

15     deputy."

16             Mr. Tieger, switch off, please.

17             [Voiceover] "Brothers and sisters, dear people of Krajina, and

18     all other patriots who have come to this rally, we must not succumb to

19     the greatest deceit that we are voting for war or peace.  We are voting

20     for the betrayal or rescue of Republika Srpska.  Those leftist forces

21     which are offering us co-existence again must know that it is the

22     obligation of the Serbs over the next hundred years to wipe their feet

23     from the foul non-Christians who have befouled this soil of ours."

24             MR. TIEGER:

25        Q.   Mr. Mandic, I indicated to you that this was also attended by

Page 4502

 1     members of the Bosnian Serb leadership, including Mr. Krajisnik and

 2     Mr. Karadzic.  And let me turn quickly to their comments.

 3             Clip 4, please.

 4                           [Video-clip played]

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  [Voiceover] "Momcilo Krajisnik, president of

 6     the Assembly of Republika Srpska."

 7             "Dear brothers and sisters, my dear people of the Krajina on both

 8     sides of the Una River.  Having heard these wonderful words by my

 9     predecessors, I feel great satisfaction at being at this gathering here

10     today, satisfaction at seeing the fruits of our struggle for our homeland

11     in actuality."

12             MR. TIEGER:  And clip 5, please.

13                           [Video-clip played]

14             THE INTERPRETER:  [Voiceover] "Our goal is that all this we are

15     fighting for today becomes a united state.  May God grant this.  All the

16     territory now called Republika Srpska or Serbian Krajina will be Serbia!"

17             MR. TIEGER:  And clip 6, which follows immediately afterwards.

18     And, Your Honour, at the conclusion I'll present the time codes for the

19     benefit of the record.

20                           [Video-clip played]

21             THE INTERPRETER:  [Voiceover] "Brothers and sisters, president of

22     Republika Srpska, Dr. Radovan Karadzic has the floor."

23             "Dear brothers and sisters, Serbs from both Krajinas, from

24     Herzegovina, from Posavina, from Ozren, from all Serbian lands to the

25     Neretva River.  Six hundred years have passed since we lost the Serbian

Page 4503

 1     state, and two hundred years Karadjordje's uprising to renew the state

 2     has lasted, and what is happening today is the conclusion of

 3     Karadjordje's rebellion.  If Karadjordje had to stop at Dobrun, on the

 4     other side of the Drina, it was because he was unable to complete

 5     everything, but we must complete it.  Our enemy has brought us to the

 6     most beautiful and most sacred goal of ours."

 7             MR. TIEGER:

 8        Q.   Mr. Mandic, when you mentioned Brdjanin as one of those people

 9     who wanted a mono-ethnic state, and when you talked about Kupresanin,

10     it's the case, isn't it, that these two were not isolated extremists

11     expressing marginalised views, but were, in fact, people embraced by,

12     supported by, and connected to Dr. Karadzic and the rest of the Bosnian

13     Serb leadership?

14        A.   That's not my opinion.

15        Q.   And you weren't aware that Mr. Karadzic, for example --

16     Mr. Krajisnik, for example, as reflected here, supported and praised the

17     words of Brdjanin and Kupresanin?

18        A.   Well, you put to me only excerpts taken out of the context of

19     entire speeches.  I'm not an analyst.  I don't want to analyse the

20     stances expressed in public places where large numbers of people had

21     gathered and these people are trying to win over the masses and telling

22     them what they think they want to hear.  I'm not an analyst.  I don't

23     know when this gathering took place, where.  I'm seeing this for the

24     first time now on the screen.  I can't now, based on three or four

25     sentences taken out of entire speeches, confirm your view that they

Page 4504

 1     supported Kupresanin or Brdjanin or that they didn't.  That was not my

 2     impression.

 3             I know that Momo Krajisnik, and especially Mr. Karadzic, while I

 4     was minister and assistant minister, did not advocate a Serbian state.  I

 5     know that for a fact.  But what they said at rallies for the benefit of

 6     the people, I don't know, and I don't want to comment on it.

 7             Out of a rally that must have lasted three or four hours, you

 8     took out a couple of sentences, and you want me to comment.

 9        Q.   Well, you were aware that Mr. Brdjanin was an advocate of a

10     mono-ethnic state.  What did you hear him state that caused you to

11     understand that?

12        A.   What period do you mean; before the war, during the war, after

13     the war?  When?  I don't understand.  I didn't get your question.

14        Q.   Well, at the moment I'm not so interested in when Mr. Brdjanin's

15     advocacy of a mono-ethnic state began.  I'm interested in knowing the

16     basis and how you knew that that was his position.

17        A.   I probably attended some Assembly sessions where he expressed his

18     views and his opinions, because I'm sure that Brdjanin was an MP in the

19     Joint Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina and also in the Assembly of the

20     Serbian people, and he was an MP from Krajina.  He was one of those

21     right-wing MPs.

22             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, I indicated I would list for the record

23     the time codes of the clips that were played.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please.

25             MR. TIEGER:  Clip 2 is at 0:51:19 through 00:52:03.  That was

Page 4505

 1     Mr. Kupresanin.  Clip 3 with Brdjanin speaking is 00:53:32 to 00:54:41.

 2     Clip 4A, which was the beginning of Mr. Krajisnik's speech, is 1:10:07 to

 3     1:10:37.  And the second clip of Mr. Krajisnik is 1:26:09 through

 4     1:26:29.  And the last clip with Mr. Karadzic was 1:26:32 to 1:29:03.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I make a request?

 6             I believe it would be of assistance both to the Chamber and the

 7     Defence to know the date and the immediate reason for these rallies,

 8     because it must have had something to do with peace conferences, because

 9     there was a mention of something that needed to be accepted or not

10     accepted.  So it's important to know the date and the occasion.

11             JUDGE KWON:  I noted it was 21st of August, 1994, at the

12     beginning, and the reason for the rally is a proper subject for you to

13     pursue during your examination of the witness.

14             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, and I would tender the document in its

15     entirety, along with the transcript, at this time.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I just say a few

17     words, please?

18             JUDGE KWON:  Just a minute, Mr. Mandic.

19             MR. TIEGER:  And, Your Honour, for the record --

20                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

21             JUDGE KWON:  I'm advised, Mr. Tieger, that parts of this clip

22     have been already --

23             MR. TIEGER:  P14.

24             JUDGE KWON:  -- admitted as P14, and there is a way that we can

25     add the remaining parts to P14, following our previous practice.  That

Page 4506

 1     will be done.

 2             Yes, Mr. Robinson.

 3             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.

 4             I would just point out that we believe that this comes outside of

 5     the guide-lines with respect to whether this witness could speak to any

 6     of those portions.  And so while it may ultimately be admissible, we

 7     don't think it's admissible through this witness.  Thank you.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I --

 9             JUDGE KWON:  It's time for -- yes, I forgot that request.  Yes,

10     Mr. Mandic.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've been trying to tell Mr. Tieger

12     that in 1993/1994, I lived and worked in Belgrade, and I am not at all

13     familiar with the political circumstances in Bosnia-Herzegovina, who was

14     right-wing or not, where rallies were organised, and who participated in

15     all these events.  I think it's really superfluous for me to repeat that

16     as far as these years are concerned, I can be of no use either to the OTP

17     or the Defence or the Trial Chamber.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE KWON:  I was too quick to give a ruling on my own.  But

20     upon second thought, the Chamber is of the opinion that although the

21     witness identified some of the persons who gave a speech in the

22     video-clip, but he said nothing about the content of the speeches, so to

23     be consistent with our previous ruling we'll not admit these video-clips

24     at this moment.

25             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, I understand the Court's ruling, and

Page 4507

 1     I'm not -- I want to seek some -- I wasn't heard on this, so if the Court

 2     will permit me to raise a point; if not for this purpose, then for future

 3     admissibility purposes.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 5             MR. TIEGER:  The authenticity of this document is not at issue,

 6     clearly.  Furthermore, it involves the accused directly.  It follows on

 7     the heels of testimony under oath by this witness in a previous case,

 8     confirmed here, about the general kinds of sentiments he heard and

 9     their -- what he perceived as they're being part of an effort to

10     ingratiate the speaker with Dr. Karadzic or other members of the Bosnian

11     Serb leadership.

12             Now, the Prosecution is attempting to explore the kinds of

13     sentiments that were expressed at that time, the reactions to those

14     sentiments, the linkage between the proponents of those sentiments and

15     the members of the Bosnian Serb leadership, and we'll be attempting to do

16     that during the course of the case.  It cannot be the case, and this is

17     actually a point argued by Mr. Robinson earlier, that the Court would

18     find it necessary to understand the significance of such evidence to

19     ensure the presence of someone who was personally present at the time.

20     Instead, when a document is relevant or -- and authentic as we -- excuse

21     me, Your Honour.  When a document is authentic, then the issue arises

22     whether the context of the witness's testimony thereby makes that

23     document and the discussion of that document relevant.

24             And, again, so I'm not seen as revisiting a ruling the Court is

25     making, I make those submissions as a general point, but that is the

Page 4508

 1     point I would have made if I had the opportunity or if I'd taken the

 2     opportunity earlier to speak to this document and other documents which

 3     we will be presenting during the course of this witness's testimony.

 4     These are of assistance to the Chamber, we submit, and hope the Chamber

 5     will hear them.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

 7             Also bear in mind, in your future planning of your conduct of

 8     examination, please also bear in mind that the case we are dealing with

 9     is of great, enormous size, and we have to think about who will be --

10     although we do not adopt the so-called best-evidence rule, we have to

11     think about who will be the best witness to produce certain exhibits, so

12     we have to think about whether there's a point of putting documents or

13     clips to the witness who knows nothing about the document.  So otherwise

14     there's no limit, also in terms of cross-examination or re-examination.

15     That's the point.

16             And I forgot something else, but let's move on with that.

17             MR. TIEGER:  Okay, Your Honour.  I understand --

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I, Your Excellency, just

19     briefly?

20             Mr. Tieger omitted to quote the witness.  The witness said:  "To

21     themselves with the leadership and the people," although you can argue

22     that in some cases it's the leadership, but in this case, these

23     video-clips, this is a political speech, and it would be ingratiating

24     themselves with the people.  And so that somehow was not highlighted.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, I don't think this is a proper,

Page 4509

 1     appropriate intervention on your part.  That's -- those parts can be

 2     examined during your -- pursued during your cross-examination.  Let's not

 3     waste time anymore.

 4             Let's continue.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This only referred to the words of

 6     esteemed Mr. Tieger, whom I'm not able to examine.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  I think you have formed the habit to like to have

 8     the last word, but please refrain from doing so, Mr. Karadzic.

 9             Let's continue.

10             MR. TIEGER:

11        Q.   Mr. Mandic, you mentioned more than once that you weren't

12     sufficiently familiar with Mr. Kupresanin or Mr. Brdjanin.  Let me ask

13     you about somebody that I understand you dealt with directly, and that's

14     Mr. Prstojevic.  Now, he's another one of those who you said wanted a

15     mono-ethnic state; correct?

16        A.   I consider him as a right-wing MP, both in the Joint Parliament

17     and the Assembly of the Serbian people.  I know him from Ilidza, because

18     he was also president of that municipality.

19        Q.   Well, I want to look at how Mr. Prstojevic happened to be in that

20     position of power and retained that position of power in Ilidza.

21             And in that connection, I wish to turn to 65 ter 20992.

22             Mr. Mandic, that's a discussion between you and Mr. Lugonja on

23     the 17th of April, 1992, which you reviewed and authenticated during the

24     course of your Krajisnik testimony.

25             I'm sorry, did I -- it's 65 ter 30667.  My apologies.  And,

Page 4510

 1     again, Mr. Mandic, it's found at tab 10 of your binder of intercepts.

 2                           [Video-clip played]

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  [Voiceover] "Hello, good morning."

 4             "Good morning."

 5             "Petar Lugonja needs to speak to Momcilo Mandic, please."

 6             "One moment."

 7             "Hello."

 8             "Hello."

 9             "Hi, Petar."

10             "Momo, hi there."

11             "Hi Pero.  What are you up to?"

12             "Here I am.  How's it going?"

13             "It's fucking all right.  How about you?"

14             "Well, fuck.  Problems, huh."

15             "It's fucking shitty.  I wanted to ask you."

16             "What's up?"

17             "Lugonja:  Well, I fucking have these three people here in

18     Ilidza.  Tomo is pulling to his side because he's from the police.  I

19     believe that he's -- that he's mainly right.  Then there's Prstojevic,

20     the president of the party and the Crisis Staff, and then there's

21     Kezunovic, the prime minister, you know."

22             "Yeah.  It seems that this Kezunovic guy is in some way right

23     most of the time, but Prstojevic is -- he seems to be gathering some kind

24     of scum around himself, some incapable, incompetent people.  Does anyone

25     at this moment have the influence to calm this thing down, to find a

Page 4511

 1     fourth person who can fucking unite all this?"

 2             "Well, I'll call Prstojevic to come in and I'll talk to him

 3     here."

 4             "Yes, but it's no fuckin' use.  Kezunovic is from up there in

 5     Pale and he's a good guy.  I guess he took his family up to Pale

 6     yesterday and the day before it.  He also spoke to Karadzic about

 7     something, you know?"

 8             "Yes."

 9             "But a new man has to come here, one that can really unite us.

10             "No, if there is discord, they can go fuck themselves, all of

11     them.  I'll fucking kill them all."

12             "Come on, Pero, you are the smartest and the most able man

13     there."

14             "Well, it's impossible."

15             "Koljevic came in last night.  They shut themselves in and they

16     won't let anyone in."

17             "Well, yeah, they're running to the boss.  All right, I'll talk

18     to Koljevic."

19             "Talk to him.  There has been a split and it's been a mess in

20     Ilidza since day one.  Don't let us have this man -- he can't give any

21     orders."

22             "All right.  I'll take care of mobilisation.  We are unable to

23     move people."

24             "Is it possible to reach you there?"

25             "It's possible."

Page 4512

 1             "Lugonja:  It's possible, but --"

 2             "All right.  I'll see when I have --"

 3             "When these guys get here quickly.  It only matters to us that we

 4     have someone to get a fuckin' move on."

 5             "Agreed, agreed."

 6             "Right.  Cheers, bye."

 7             MR. TIEGER:

 8        Q.   Now, Mr. Mandic, when you listened to and explained that

 9     conversation in the Krajisnik case -- well, first of all, let me say that

10     is a conversation between you and Mr. Lugonja; correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Okay.  And when you explained that conversation in the Krajisnik

13     case, at page 8626 through 8627, you explained that Lugonja thought that

14     Prstojevic was taking people who were not proper and were not behaving

15     appropriately, that they were impeding the setting up of civilian

16     authorities in Ilidza, and that's why he asked to have that problem

17     resolved by President Karadzic.  And you explained that there was a clash

18     between Prstojevic and Lugonja; is that right?

19        A.   Yes, that's correct.

20        Q.   And then you further explained that as a consequence of that,

21     Lugonja left Ilidza, whereas Prstojevic stayed on in Ilidza for a long,

22     long time.  So Prstojevic had this stream of his own, so to speak?

23        A.   I think it was a conflict at a local level.  At least in this

24     case, Petar Lugonja got the short end of it and went to live in Belgrade,

25     whereas MP Prstojevic became president of Ilidza municipality, and he

Page 4513

 1     stayed in that position for a really long time.  And we had more problems

 2     with him later, and you will see in that intercept between me and

 3     Tomo Kovac, when I even asked Tomo Kovac to intervene as chief of police

 4     with regard to Prstojevic.

 5        Q.   And you were asked why Mr. Prstojevic prevailed in this conflict

 6     for local authority, and you explained:

 7             "I think that the entire leadership of Republika Srpska had

 8     greater confidence in Mr. Prstojevic, and that's how it happened."

 9             So it wasn't only Mr. Krajisnik, but it was Mr. Karadzic, too,

10     and Mr. Koljevic; correct?

11        A.   Well, I think that, and I still think that, Mr. Krajisnik

12     prevailed, in terms of trust in Mr. Prstojevic.  It was his MP in the

13     Assembly.  And Momo Krajisnik was protective about members of Parliament

14     and people he worked with in the Assembly, and he had more trust in them.

15        Q.   Well, you've said that Mr. Prstojevic was one of those who

16     favoured a mono-ethnic state.  Let's take a look at a conversation

17     involving Mr. Prstojevic at 65 ter 30746 to see what views he expressed

18     at the time.

19             And this is tab 14, Mr. Mandic.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What is this all about?  Who is on

22     trial here?  What do I have to do with -- I mean, there are a million and

23     a half Serbs in Bosnia and Herzegovina.  Everyone was free to say what

24     they liked.  Mr. Tieger cannot -- can show any number of documents where

25     people expressed extreme views.  That's a matter of freedom.  We have to

Page 4514

 1     work on the basis of documents, the Assembly, the government.  Now, based

 2     on informal conversations between free men, who have the right to have

 3     extremist views, I am being painted in a certain light.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  I don't find this intervention very helpful to the

 5     Chamber, Mr. Karadzic.  You can leave it to the Chamber.

 6             MR. TIEGER:  Well, perhaps it -- thank you, Your Honour, but

 7     perhaps it provides some context.

 8             Before we break, let me turn to another document quickly.  That's

 9     65 ter 00028, and it's the 17th Assembly session, which may already be

10     admitted, in fact.

11             JUDGE KWON:  In the meantime, you would like to tender that

12     previous intercept?

13             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE KWON:  30667.  That will be admitted.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1085, Your Honours.

16             For the record, 65 ter 00028 has been admitted as Exhibit D92.

17             JUDGE KWON:  What page, Mr. Tieger?

18             MR. TIEGER:  Page 66, Your Honour.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could we have the date of

20     an intercept, if that's an intercept ?

21             MR. TIEGER:  No, it's not.  It's an Assembly session.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have the page in Serbian?

23             MR. TIEGER:  Same page in B/C/S.

24             The problem may be that we're still in Sanction.

25        Q.   Mr. Mandic, this is the 17th session of the Bosnian Serb Assembly

Page 4515

 1     in late July 1992.  I believe you attended that session, spoke at that

 2     session.  This is Mr. Prstojevic speaking, and I'll quote:

 3             "When the Serbs started the uprising in Sarajevo, and when they

 4     seized control over certain territories, there was no government, or at

 5     least it was not known where it was then.  Moreover, we did not know --

 6     we even did not know if Mr. Karadzic was alive during the first couple of

 7     days.  When we learnt that he was alive, and when he visited us in Ilidza

 8     and encouraged us, the Serbs from Sarajevo retained control over the

 9     territory, and even extended their territory in some areas, driving the

10     Muslims out of the territories where they had actually been majority."

11             Mr. Mandic, is that another one of the comments you heard

12     Mr. Prstojevic make during the course of your attendance at the Assembly

13     or in dealings with him that caused you to understand that he was an

14     advocate of a mono-ethnic state?

15        A.   I knew Mr. Prstojevic personally.  And from my personal

16     experience, I know that he was at right-wing extremist, that he spoke

17     about a mono-ethnic Serbian state.  He was a very opinionated person.

18     That's my personal opinion of him, of course.

19             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you.  Your Honour --

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  The witness said

21     "stubborn and opinionated."

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stubborn and opinionated.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Stubborn and opinionated.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He very often did not take into

25     account the opinion of other people, of his own partners, the leadership.

Page 4516

 1     He was a negative personality.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Shall we take a break now?

 3             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Your Honour.

 4             Before you rise, I just should note the Prosecution did file a

 5     response to the motion for extension of time, and --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  We know.  Thank you.

 7             We'll resume at 1.00.

 8                           --- Recess taken at 12.33 p.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 1.05 p.m.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, I was informed that you have something

11     to raise before we -- yes, Mr. Robinson.

12             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes.

13             Actually, Your Honour, just in the event that -- we would like to

14     have just one moment to reply to the Prosecution's position concerning

15     our request for a delay in the commencement of the cross-examination of

16     the witness.  Would this be an appropriate time or would you prefer to do

17     it at some other time?

18             JUDGE KWON:  Once we've started, please do so, and very briefly.

19             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes.

20             I just wanted to point out that in the decision that you made on

21     the accused's motion for postponement of the trial on the 26th of

22     February, 2010, at page 40, you indicated:

23             "As the trial progresses should the accused make a reasonable

24     request for more time to prepare his cross-examination of a particular

25     witness or to deal with a particular document which the Prosecution seeks

Page 4517

 1     to introduce into evidence, on the basis that relevant material was only

 2     recently disclosed to him, the Chamber will consider such a request and

 3     may grant appropriate relief."

 4             And this is the time.  We believe this falls squarely within that

 5     paragraph, and because of that, we think that the Chamber envisioned

 6     situations like this may occur, and this is one of those situations,

 7     given the volume of documents and the lateness of their disclosure to us.

 8             Thank you.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  We'll try to give a ruling as soon a

10     possible, possibly tomorrow.  Thank you.

11             Mr. Tieger.

12             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13             I don't know it's a funny procedural anomaly at this moment.  We

14     filed a written response to the written submission.  First of all, let me

15     say that normally I think a reply shouldn't be assumed.  It requires

16     leave of Court when one is necessary.  But what I'm trying to find out

17     now is whether the Court still is seeking an oral submission at the end

18     of the day.  I would certainly dispute the basis for the reply.

19             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think it's necessary, and I think that

20     Mr. Robinson's reply was in response to your written submission.

21             MR. TIEGER:  I agree, and I'm only trying to forestall the

22     procedure whereby, because we're in court, that the normal formalities of

23     written submissions gets circumvented simply because someone rises in

24     court to make an oral submission in a situation that would otherwise

25     provide for written submissions.  I'm not --

Page 4518

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Let's not spend more time.  I gave permission.

 2             Let's continue, Mr. Tieger.

 3             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4        Q.   Mr. Mandic, just before we recessed, we had an opportunity to

 5     look at some comments by Mr. Prstojevic at the 17th Assembly session,

 6     some retrospective comments about the period in April.  Before that and

 7     before Mr. Karadzic's intervention, I had been -- I had intended to play

 8     an intercept involving Mr. Prstojevic, and I think that was almost lined

 9     up.  And that would be 65 ter 30746.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Can we have the date of the intercept, please?

11             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, of course.  That's 14 May 1992.  And we need to

12     be in Sanction for that.

13                           [Audio-clip played]

14             THE INTERPRETER:  [Voiceover] "Hello, hello."

15             "Yes."

16             "Good evening."

17             "God be with you."

18             "How are you?"

19             "It will be better.  Tell me ..."

20             "Prstojevic speaking.  I'd like to talk to Mrki."

21             "Mrki is not here.  Mrki 2 is."

22             "Okay, Mrki 2 then."

23             "Just a second."

24             "Yes?"

25             "Prstojevic:  Hello, hello."

Page 4519

 1             "Yes?"

 2             "Good evening."

 3             "Good evening."

 4             "How are you?  Prstojevic speaking."

 5             "I'm Mika's deputy."

 6             "Yes, and your name is?"

 7             "Milenko."

 8             "Milenko?"

 9             "Yes."

10             "Why did Mika phone me?"

11             "Phoned you to check with you ... these people in Kotorac ..."

12             "Yes."

13             "What should we do with them?"

14             "Did you arrest them?  What did you do?"

15             "People are down there.  On -- just a second.  Yes?"

16             "Hello."

17             "Yes?"

18             "And where are those people?  Have they been arrested?"

19             "No."

20             "What then?"

21             "Down there on the road, all of them.  Men are separated from

22     women."

23             "Ha."

24             "Just a second, just a second."

25             "Up there; right?"

Page 4520

 1             "He says men ... I've just received the word.  Men are in the

 2     Kula Prison, and women went in the direction of Butmir."

 3             "Put Tepavcevic on."

 4             "Here, here's Novakovic.  He'll talk to you.  It's Prstojevic.

 5     Stop fooling around."

 6             "Hello?"

 7             "Hello?"

 8             "Hi, Neda."

 9             "Hi."

10             "How are you?"

11             "I'm fine.  Have you been cleaning Kotorac today?"

12             "They have.  I don't know the exact details because I was engaged

13     otherwise."

14             "Yes."

15             "Well, if you want, we will call you later."

16             "That's okay.  But tell me, please, I beg of you, why did you

17     take the women to Butmir?"

18             "They said women were not in Butmir, but --"

19             "Nedeljko Prstojevic:  But?"

20             "Well, in Butmir, yes.  Not to KP Dom, but to Butmir.  That's

21     where they are going."

22             "They cannot go to Butmir, we'll mop up Butmir in time as well."

23             "Aha."

24             "Butmir will be mopped up, Sokolovic will be mopped up, Hrasnica

25     will be mopped up."

Page 4521

 1             "Well, I don't know where to take them."

 2             "They will all ... there's is Bascarsija.  Please, take all them

 3     to Bascarsija, on foot."

 4             "Aha, aha."

 5             "Women."

 6             "Okay, now I'll ..."

 7             "And men to prison."

 8             "Okay, I'll check with them now and then I'll let you know."

 9             "Yes.  Tell them, those who convert to Orthodox religion on the

10     spot, they can stay, women and children."

11             "Aha, okay."

12             "Do it, please, but don't make mistakes ... You've done an

13     excellent job, but it means that Butmir will be mopped up in time.  Tell

14     that to the people here."

15             "There you go.  Cheers."

16             "Okay."

17             MR. TIEGER:

18        Q.   Mr. Mandic, do you recognise the voices of any of the

19     participants in that discussion?

20        A.   No, I didn't, no.  I don't know who Mrki is.  Prstojevic -- I'm

21     not sure, but I believe that one of the voices belongs to Prstojevic.

22     And for the other man, I don't know either the name or the voice.

23        Q.   And as I indicated to you, that is a conversation between

24     Prstojevic, Milenko and Mr. Novakovic on the 14th of May, 1992.  Is that

25     the kind of information -- that is, what you listened to in that

Page 4522

 1     intercept, the kind of information you had about Mr. Prstojevic's

 2     activities back in April and May 1992?

 3        A.   Prstojevic did not participate in those activities.  He was the

 4     president of the municipality, but I believe that he interfered in the

 5     life of the municipality in everything; the work of the police, the

 6     military, and other institutions.  But I've not heard this conversation

 7     before.  I was never aware of these particular details.  I was aware of

 8     some other incidents that he was involved in, and I discussed them with

 9     Tomo Kovac.  While I provided my testimony in Belgrade and on the

10     Krajisnik case, I heard those intercepts.  You played them to me.  That

11     was when he had blocked Ilidza and then removed some Muslims from their

12     jobs, and I, personally, and the government were against that.

13             As to this particular intercept, I don't know anything about

14     these particular activities, and this is the first time I hear this

15     intercept at all.

16        Q.   Were you aware that Mr. Prstojevic was engaged in removing

17     Muslims from Ilidza?

18        A.   He was the president of the municipality, of the local

19     parliament, as it were.  He did not agree with the police, and I don't

20     know what his relationship with the military was.  But Tomo Kovac, as the

21     head of the local police, did not approve his activities.

22             At this time, or perhaps even before, I talked to Tomo Kovac, the

23     head of police, about problems created by Prstojevic.  He had blocked the

24     movement of non-civilian population through Ilidza.

25             You presented that intercept to me, if you will remember,

Page 4523

 1     Mr. Tieger, both in Belgrade and on the Momcilo Krajisnik trial.  I don't

 2     know to what extent he was engaged.  I don't know.  I wasn't there.

 3        Q.   When you said, in the Stanisic/Zupljanin case, that

 4     Mr. Prstojevic and his ilk were dangerous, and expressed your disapproval

 5     in that case of him, and also indicated that he was a proponent of a

 6     mono-ethnic state, weren't you talking about your awareness of his

 7     efforts to ensure that Muslims in Ilidza did not remain?

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we be given the transcript

 9     page, please?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could we be given the transcript

11     page, please?

12             JUDGE KWON:  Fair enough.

13             MR. TIEGER:  9523, regarding a mono-ethnic state.  9505,

14     regarding Prstojevic and his ilk and attempts to ingratiate.  Also, 9487.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, when I

16     paraphrased, I was asked to quote.  Could Mr. Tieger actually quote from

17     the transcript, and could he quote the entire paragraph, please?

18             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

19             Could you reformulate your question, Mr. Tieger?

20             MR. TIEGER:  I will, Your Honour.

21        Q.   Mr. Mandic, let me go back to the transcript, but first if we can

22     short-cut that.  You have a low opinion or you have expressed a low

23     opinion of Mr. Prstojevic; is that correct?

24        A.   No, I didn't have a very high opinion of him, and you are right.

25        Q.   Okay.  And was that because of, despite, or had nothing to do

Page 4524

 1     with his views about a mono-ethnic state?

 2        A.   Well, I didn't know Mr. Prstojevic privately, but I didn't agree

 3     with his methods of work in Ilidza municipality.  Tomo Kovac, the head of

 4     the police in Ilidza, had informed me about those methods of work on two

 5     occasions.

 6        Q.   I was asked to read a quote about Mr. Prstojevic from the

 7     transcript of the Stanisic/Zupljanin case.  Let me read one and perhaps

 8     more.

 9             After quoting -- after you were presented with the same Assembly

10     session excerpt we saw just before the recess, that is, Mr. Prstojevic

11     speaking at the 17th Assembly session, about driving the Muslims out of

12     territories where they'd actually been a majority, you were asked:

13             "Now, that appears to be carrying along the same line from

14     Mr. Karadzic was saying.  You knew Mr. Prstojevic, and you rang him up to

15     tell him to stop driving Muslims out.  Had he actually taken any notice

16     of what you'd said to him?

17             "A.  Well, I learned about those activities of his from

18     Tomo Kovac a few days before, and in one intercept I even suggested to

19     Kovac that he arrest or kill the man because he was creating problems to

20     everyone in Ilidza, the authorities and the police.  He was really

21     destructive, and you see he was denying the existence of the government

22     and that Mr. Karadzic was alive, et cetera.  My opinion of Mr. Prstojevic

23     and his ilk could not be worse.  Those people created most of the

24     problems, and many of them ended up here in The Hague."

25             That was later clarified to be that they caused others to end up

Page 4525

 1     in The Hague.

 2             So, Mr. Mandic, you acknowledge here your awareness of

 3     Mr. Prstojevic's efforts, and my question is whether or not the contents

 4     of the intercept you listened to were consistent with the information you

 5     had at the time back in 1992.

 6        A.   Mr. Tieger -- Mr. Tieger, I adhere by what I said in the

 7     Stanisic/Zupljanin case as regards Prstojevic, and there's an intercept

 8     of the 2nd of June, 1992, which shows that I tried to undertake measures.

 9     You presented it to me, and here I have it under tab 17 or 18.  And you

10     will hear that I'm trying to convince Prstojevic to behave within the

11     scope of constitutional law and that the government had received

12     information about his destructive behaviour, and I was imploring with him

13     to stop with all that.  One of the things was the complete blockade of

14     Ilidza municipality and about Judge Fadil Musanovic who couldn't work

15     because he was Muslim.  I asked him to stop with all that and to bring

16     the man back to work.  As the minister of justice, I did not have any

17     authority over him.  I informed the government about all that.  He was an

18     elected president of the municipality, and he was responsible before the

19     Parliament.

20             You have that intercept, I have it here, on the 17 or 18, and

21     you'll see that we did discuss his case, that we tried to do something,

22     but he was not within the line of our responsibility and we could not

23     take any effective measures with his regard.

24             MR. TIEGER:  And, Your Honour --

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Number 18 here, under tab 18, a

Page 4526

 1     conversation between Miljenko, Prstojevic and myself.  For the

 2     Trial Chamber, could we perhaps play it so that the Trial Chamber could

 3     hear what I told him and how I reacted, how the government reacted?  I

 4     reacted as a member of the government.  I tried to persuade those people

 5     to come to their senses and not to behave in the way they did, under

 6     tab 18 of a binder you provided to me.  The document number is 5747,

 7     pages 1 through 4.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  No doubt Mr. Tieger will take care of it.

 9             MR. TIEGER:

10        Q.   And let me say, in terms of -- first of all, Mr. Mandic --

11        A.   Your Honours, I apologise.  I would kindly ask you to allow us to

12     hear this intercept of the conversation between myself and Prstojevic,

13     and then everything will become clear.  The relationship with the

14     government and that man in Pale will become clear, because he did not

15     enjoy the support of the government in what he was doing.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

17             MR. TIEGER:  And just so the Court is clear on this:

18        Q.   By "the government," Mr. Mandic, you mean the ministries headed

19     by Mr. Djeric, that is, that arm of the political authorities?

20        A.   Yes, yes.  I was a government member, and as the government, I

21     intervened, and I asked from Prstojevic to behave as a good Serb, as a

22     person who was not monolithic, who was removing people from their jobs

23     because they were not Serbs.  I asked that from him.  And here we have

24     the intercept, Mr. Tieger.  Could you please play it for the

25     Trial Chamber?  I asked Prstojevic to behave within the Constitution and

Page 4527

 1     the law, as a good Serb.

 2             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, I don't have any -- first of all, I was

 3     about to say I don't have any objection, but that's not exactly the

 4     procedure in which we --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  I leave it to the parties.  Either the Prosecution

 6     or the Defence will play the --

 7             MR. TIEGER:  Fine.  I will simply note this is one of the

 8     associated exhibits.  It's discussed at some length in the testimony that

 9     the Court now has in evidence, and that's the reason it wasn't replayed.

10             And, Your Honour, I would tender, as MFI, the intercept just

11     played.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Is this a proper moment to tender that, when the

13     witness confirmed nothing about this?

14             MR. TIEGER:  I think in the context of his extensive answer, he

15     talked about his knowledge of Prstojevic, Mr. Prstojevic's activities,

16     and so on.  Again, I don't -- he didn't authenticate the intercept in the

17     classic manner, that is, by being a participant, but that's a separate

18     matter, as we've discussed.

19             JUDGE KWON:  We'll mark it for identification.  Yes, that will be

20     marked for identification.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI P1086, Your Honours.

22             MR. TIEGER:

23        Q.   Mr. Mandic, I want to move on to some of the government's

24     activities, because you've referred to them.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may say.

Page 4528

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Even more important things I

 3     couldn't do.  The witness didn't know anything about all that, nothing at

 4     all.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Marking for identification has many implications.

 6     So when we are -- those will be admitted when we are satisfied with its

 7     foundation, in addition to the authenticity later on.

 8             Yes.

 9             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, and please understand I'm not trying to

10     initiate a squabble with respect to this intercept, but it's an

11     opportunity to address a general admissibility issue, and I think it's

12     on -- and I don't want that also to be embedded when it comes time to

13     mark -- to consider the admission of this document later.  The witness

14     knows one of the participants, he knows about his activities.  We've

15     already established the connection between that person speaking in the

16     intercept and the accused in connection with the same activities that are

17     part of that conversation, so I think it's inaccurate to suggest that

18     there's been no nexus and this document has arisen from nowhere in the

19     course of this examination.

20             JUDGE KWON:  I believe the parties will be aware of the Chamber's

21     guide-line or Chamber's practice in relation to the admission of

22     documents, and the Chamber will be consistent with that rule.  And while

23     it is still amazing that admissibility is such a hard issue, after the 17

24     years' existence of this Tribunal, let's move on, Mr. Tieger.

25             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, I couldn't agree more, and maybe we'll

Page 4529

 1     have an opportunity to discuss that with the Court and with the parties

 2     at some -- in the near future.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  We'll see, Mr. Tieger.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I just say two things?  One

 5     is a matter of principle, and so is the other, but also a practical

 6     thing.

 7             Could the Defence be asked every time for their opinion about a

 8     document tendered for admission?

 9             JUDGE KWON:  I apologise for that, yes.

10             JUDGE MORRISON:  Dr. Karadzic, I think we found out now that

11     you're not a shrinking violet, and I'm sure that if we fail to remember

12     you, you'll certainly remind us straight away.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, let's move on.

14             MR. TIEGER:

15        Q.   And in particular, Mr. Mandic, I want to move to the period of

16     April 1992, shortly after the outbreak of the conflict.

17             And in that connection, I'd like to turn to 65 ter 00151.  And,

18     again, we may be in Sanction, and --

19             Mr. Mandic, this is -- this document reflects the minutes of the

20     meeting of the Council for National Security, that is, the

21     National Security Council, and the government, which was held on the 24th

22     of April, 1992.  Now, you were familiar with the National Security

23     Council and, indeed, attended some meetings; correct?

24        A.   No.  I just attended one meeting, when I was proposed as minister

25     of justice; not before, not after that.  I think it was an ad hoc body,

Page 4530

 1     and it never actually went through the legal regulations of

 2     Republika Srpska.  The proposal was that I replace Ranko Nikolic as

 3     minister of justice of the Serbian Republic -- yes, of the Serbian people

 4     in Bosnia-Herzegovina, yes.

 5        Q.   Who presided over meetings of the National Security Council?

 6        A.   I don't remember.

 7        Q.   At page 8743 of the Krajisnik transcript, you were asked:

 8             "Q.  Who presided over meetings of the council?

 9             "A.  Dr. Radovan Karadzic."

10             Is that correct, Mr. Mandic?

11        A.   I really don't remember.

12        Q.   Well, let's look at these minutes, Mr. Mandic.  And if we look at

13     the decisions following item 1, that is, the decisions listed, and turn

14     to the third decision from the bottom of that section:

15             "The National Security Council adopted the decision that the

16     Ministry of Justice shall take over the exchange of prisoners once the

17     organs of the interior have completed their work."

18             You may not see that on your version of the B/C/S, Mr. Mandic.

19     If the B/C/S could be moved to the next page.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I once again caution that the

21     word used here is "zarobljenici" [phoen], not "zatforenjici" [phoen].

22     That can be confirmed by your interpreters.  When it says "zarobljenici,"

23     it should be translated as "prisoners of war," "of war," because no one

24     ever exchanged mere prisoners, but prisoners of war.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Well, I thank you for your intervention,

Page 4531

 1     Mr. Karadzic.  In the future, if you'd like to intervene, could you raise

 2     your hand before you just speak out.  Thank you.

 3             Let's move on.

 4             MR. TIEGER:

 5        Q.   Now, Mr. Mandic, after this decision and this meeting, the

 6     government then passed a decision to establish a state commission for

 7     exchange; correct?

 8        A.   Just a moment, please, Mr. Tieger.  Obviously, I did not attend

 9     this session.  This is the first time I see this decision that this

10     council - I don't know which body this is, anyway - passed a decision

11     that the Ministry of Justice should deal with prisoners of war after the

12     Ministry of Police.  I just know that it was the government that made a

13     decision to establish a central commission for the exchange of prisoners

14     of war.  I'm aware of that, and that was one of the first decisions of

15     the government since it came into being.  I think it was the first or

16     second document of the Government of Republika Srpska, once it was

17     established.  So it wasn't the Ministry of Justice that ever established

18     a commission for the exchange of prisoners of the war.  It was the

19     government.  The government made this decision, not the Ministry of

20     Justice, because on the 24th of April, Mr. Tieger, there was no Ministry

21     of Justice in the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

22        Q.   Well, a couple of things, Mr. Mandic.  You just said that's the

23     first time you've seen this document.  If we look at page 8743 of the

24     Krajisnik transcript, we see:

25             "Mr. Mandic, P433, the documents before you now, are the minutes

Page 4532

 1     of the meeting of the Council for National Security and the government,

 2     held on 24th April 1992."

 3             And then before asking questions about the document, there was

 4     some discussion about your attendance of meeting of the National Security

 5     Council, who the members of the National Security Council were, who

 6     presided over meetings of the council, and then your attention was

 7     directed to the contents of the document, including the decisions and the

 8     decision that the Ministry of Justice shall take over the exchange of

 9     prisoners once the organs of the interior have completed their work.

10        A.   Mr. Tieger, I attended a particular meeting when I was proposed

11     as minister of justice.  I cannot remember that it was then, and I cannot

12     remember this decision.  I know that once I was informed -- or, rather,

13     once the proposal was made to appoint me minister of justice, that was

14     the end of April 1992, for a few days I carried out preparations to

15     establish the Ministry of Justice.  And it was only in the beginning of

16     May, I think on the 12th, that I was appointed or elected minister of

17     justice at the Banja Luka Assembly and when I took over the ministry.  Up

18     until then, it did not exist.

19             Ranko Nikolic, who was on the Ministerial Council, was the first

20     minister of justice, and people were waiting for the man to take over

21     that duty, but he stayed in Sarajevo throughout the war.  So from the

22     Ministry of Police, I was transferred -- or, rather, I was informed the

23     proposal was made that I would take over the Ministry of Justice because

24     I used to work in regular courts as a judge in Sarajevo.

25             I do not remember, but I know with certainty that it is the

Page 4533

 1     government that passed the decision to establish a central commission for

 2     the exchange of prisoners of war, and I cannot remember the name of the

 3     man now who was appointed to that position.

 4        Q.   We'll look at that decision, Mr. Mandic.

 5             You were also asked:

 6             "Was the decision adopted on April 24th that the organs of the

 7     interior would investigate the captured or detained people, and then once

 8     the Ministry of Interior was completed, the Ministry of Justice would

 9     conduct the exchange of those people?"

10             And you said:

11             "After this meeting, the government passed the decision to

12     establish a state commission."

13             And then you continued to indicate who would be on that

14     commission?

15        A.   That's right.  I repeat once again what I said a few moments ago,

16     that the Ministry of Justice did not establish any commission.  As for

17     this decision, I really cannot comment upon it because I am not familiar

18     with it.  But I do know what happened in the government and in the

19     Ministry of Justice during May and during the rest of 1992.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could all other

21     microphones please be switched off.  Thank you.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what kind of body this

23     council was.  Was it formal, was it informal, I don't know.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Do you remember, Mr. Mandic, that you were shown

25     this document when testifying in Mr. Krajisnik's case?

Page 4534

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I allow for that

 2     possibility, but I really do not recall.  I was a witness for

 3     President Krajisnik in 2004, so six or seven years ago.  I cannot say

 4     with any certainty.  But if Mr. Tieger asserts that it was shown to me,

 5     there is no reason for me to deny that was certainly the case then.  But

 6     at this point in time, I simply cannot remember.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  I have before me that part of the transcript, and

 8     then you were shown exactly the same document as this, and you were

 9     asked:

10             "First of all, were you present at the meeting at which that

11     decision was adopted?"

12             And then this was your answer:

13             "I don't remember, but probably I was, although I don't

14     remember."

15             Which is different from your answer today.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Believe me, Your Honour, I'm

17     testifying under oath.  I do not remember at all a meeting of the

18     National Security Council.  I know with certainty that I was invited to

19     one such meeting, but only briefly, when personnel issues were being

20     discussed and when the members of that council informed me that I had

21     been proposed to become minister of justice.  Now, whether I attended

22     that part of the meeting or the entire meeting, I don't know.  But I

23     really do not remember this document and, therefore, cannot comment upon

24     it.  Believe me, I cannot.

25             You know, when promotions were made of certain physical persons,

Page 4535

 1     then those persons would be invited to that particular part of the

 2     session.  But when security issues were being discussed, then only the

 3     members of that council were present.  Later on, it turned into the

 4     Supreme Command or whatever it was called.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  And you can confirm again at this time of an NSC

 6     meeting with the government, the Ministry of Justice didn't exist?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.  At that point in

 8     time, the Ministry of Justice did not exist.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Just one final minor, minor question from me.

10             As to your date of appointment as minister of justice, when

11     Mr. Tieger yesterday summarised your testimony as to your date of your

12     appointment as being May 19th, you corrected that to be May 12th --

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the Assembly in Banja Luka.  I

14     do apologise.

15             JUDGE KWON:  At the end of the session, you said you were

16     appointed the 16th of May.  Which is correct?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know -- or, rather, if

18     my memory serves me well, on the 12th of May there was an Assembly

19     meeting in Banja Luka, where I was appointed minister and where I took

20     the oath.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger.

22             MR. TIEGER:

23        Q.   I'm going to turn your attention to the document establishing the

24     Exchange Commission.  But before I do, in connection with its

25     relationship to this meeting of the National Security Council, I'm going

Page 4536

 1     to draw your attention to page 8752 of your testimony in the Krajisnik

 2     case, where you were talking about the Commission for Exchange, and you

 3     said:

 4             "If I may, I would like to try and help you.

 5             "After this meeting of the National Security Council of the

 6     government, where the decision was taken that the Ministry of Justice

 7     would establish the Exchange Commission, after that a government session

 8     a state commission was formed involving various ministries."

 9             That's correct, isn't it, Mr. Mandic?

10        A.   There weren't any ministries.  There were people from individual

11     ministries, but it was pre-war ministries, Mr. Tieger.  And Rajko Colovic

12     never worked for the Ministry of Justice of Republika Srpska.  He was

13     assistant minister for criminal sanctions in the joint government where

14     Ranko Nikolic was minister, and, as such, he came to that commission; was

15     elected, that is.  So Colovic -- Rajko Colovic was never an employee of

16     the Ministry of Justice, as far as I can remember, where I was minister,

17     that is.  He was assistant minister for the implementation of criminal

18     sanctions in the joint government, and the minister was Ranko Nikolic,

19     who was the first minister of justice of Republika Srpska or, rather, a

20     member of the Ministerial Council that was established in January or

21     December -- or, rather, January 1992.

22        Q.   Just following the chronology, let's look quickly at 65 ter

23     11225.

24             Oh, and, Your Honour, if the previous document hasn't been

25     tendered, I would do so at this time.

Page 4537

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, in essence, I have no

 3     objections, although the witness did not know anything about that

 4     meeting.  However, I do not object to having this document admitted into

 5     evidence; from the point of view of authenticity, that is.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  The witness confirmed his attendance in one of the

 7     council meetings.  And then given your position, we'll admit it.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1087, Your Honour.

 9             MR. TIEGER:

10        Q.   Mr. Mandic, you'll see before you the 8 May 1992 decision to form

11     a central commission.  The heading is "Serbian Republic of

12     Bosnia-Herzegovina Government," and it states in item 1:

13             "Central Commission for the Exchange of Prisoners of War,

14     arrested Persons, and the Bodies of Those Killed which remained in the

15     opposite side, is hereby appointed."

16             And it indicates the members of that commission, including

17     Mr. Markovic, as representative of the Ministry of the Interior,

18     Mr. Mihajlovic, as a representative of the Defence Ministry, and it says

19     Rajko, representative of the Ministry of Justice, would be the president

20     of the central commission, is that Rajko Colovic?

21        A.   Yes, that was Rajko Colovic, who was a member of the Ministry of

22     Justice but in the joint government.  As such, he was included in this

23     commission, because you see, this is the second written document of the

24     government.  See, it is dated the 8th of May, and the number is 01-2.  I

25     was the first employee of the Ministry of Justice.  I was appointed on

Page 4538

 1     the 8th of May.  Or, rather, this document is from the 8th of May, and I

 2     was appointed on the 12th of May, and things intermingled and they did

 3     not move as smoothly as they do in peacetime.

 4             Rajko was appointed head of this commission before I became

 5     minister.

 6        Q.   So this is one of the first things that the government did?

 7        A.   Yes, yes.  Obviously, this is the second document that was

 8     written up.  It says "Number 01-2."  From this text, it can be seen that

 9     it was done urgently, under pressure exerted by the international

10     community and on the basis of what was happening on the ground.

11        Q.   And the Exchange Commission was active almost immediately;

12     correct?

13        A.   Well, I don't know.  I didn't know about that.  I cannot give an

14     answer to that.

15             MR. TIEGER:  We'll just look at 65 ter 01553, please.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Would you like to tender the previous document?

17             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you very much.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Unless it is objected to, it will be admitted as

19     Exhibit P1088.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No objection.

21             MR. TIEGER:  I might have cited the wrong number, and I

22     apologise.  What we should have on the screen is 01533.

23        Q.   Mr. Mandic, as we see on the first page of this document, the

24     subject is:

25             "A total of 400 persons who were driven from Bratunac to Pale."

Page 4539

 1             And they are listed on the subsequent pages, 18 pages.

 2             And if we could turn to the third page in English, and I believe

 3     it would be the same in B/C/S.

 4             Again, it indicates a total of 400 persons.  The date is the 14th

 5     of May, 1992, and it is signed by Mr. Markovic, whose name we saw earlier

 6     in the decision to establish the Exchange Commission, as a member of the

 7     government's commission on behalf of the Serbian Ministry of the Interior

 8     for the exchange of prisoners of war, Slobodan Markovic.

 9             Now, Mr. Mandic, given the fact that the establishment of the

10     commission was one of the very first things that the government did, is

11     it your testimony that you don't -- you didn't know about these 400

12     people who were exchanged -- these 400 people from Bratunac who were

13     exchanged via Pale on May 14th, 1992?

14        A.   I never knew of this list or was I well versed in any way in

15     respect of the exchange of these persons.

16        Q.   This is the same -- as far as you can tell, the same

17     Slobodan Markovic who was a member of the commission; correct?

18        A.   I don't know.  I don't know who the man is.  I don't know who

19     Slobodan Markovic is.

20        Q.   But you knew what the Exchange Commission was; right?

21        A.   Well, I knew this Colovic, Rajko Colovic, but I didn't know the

22     others.

23        Q.   And you knew that the commission was comprised of representatives

24     from the Ministry of Justice, the Ministry of Interior, and the Ministry

25     of Defence; correct?

Page 4540

 1        A.   No, I didn't know that.  It was the prime minister who decided to

 2     establish the commission that way.

 3             I repeat once again, Mr. Tieger, Rajko Colovic was not an

 4     employee of the Ministry of Justice of the Serb Republic; never.

 5        Q.   I'm not going to take you back to the previous passage of your

 6     testimony that I did, Mr. Mandic.

 7             Let me ask you:  Were you -- isn't it the case that part of the

 8     impetus for the establishment of the commission was the number of people

 9     who were already incarcerated?

10        A.   I don't know what the motives were to establish this commission.

11     Mr. Djeric can explain that to you, because he's the one who established

12     it; that commission, that is.  The commission was an independent

13     governmental body that was answerable only to the government or, rather,

14     to the prime minister.  He could give you the best explanation for that;

15     that is to say, to this honourable Trial Chamber.

16        Q.   Well, we'll get into that in a moment.  But, again, I'd like to

17     know if the Justice Ministry or its predecessors, in the embodiment of

18     you or other representatives, urged the Presidency to establish a central

19     commission because of the increased influx of incarcerated persons.

20        A.   All the information we received came from the prime minister,

21     Mr. Djeric, who was a member of this council and later on of the

22     Supreme Command.  The best-informed person in the government was the

23     prime minister, among all the ministers.  Everything we knew, we knew

24     from him; we as members of the government, that is.

25             MR. TIEGER:  This will be the last document of the day,

Page 4541

 1     Your Honour.  If we could turn to 16249.

 2        Q.   Mr. Mandic, I want to show you the report on the activities of

 3     the Ministry of Justice and Administration in the period May through

 4     October 1992.

 5        A.   Yes, this is my report.

 6             MR. TIEGER:  And can we turn to the third paragraph of that

 7     report?  It states:

 8             "Keeping in mind the demands for the successful establishment of

 9     the legal state and legal security of citizens, the ministry was forced

10     to take a number of steps, primarily regarding the organisation of

11     penal-correctional organisations, mainly the Butmir KP Dom

12     Penal-Correctional Facility, considering the increased influx of

13     incarcerated persons and the need for this penal organisation to be put

14     to use.  The ministry, therefore, urged the Presidency to establish a

15     central commission for the exchange of prisoners of war, incarcerated and

16     wounded persons, and dead bodies."

17        Q.   So again, Mr. Mandic, is it correct that the impetus or at least

18     part of the impetus for the establishment of the Exchange Commission was

19     the number of people who were incarcerated?

20        A.   Mr. Tieger, only Djeric can give you an answer to that,

21     Branko Djeric, the prime minister who established this commission before

22     the Ministry of Justice was established.  I cannot give answers in

23     relation to something that happened before me, that is to say, before the

24     Ministry of Justice was established.  Call Mr. Djeric and let him explain

25     it for you.  He's the one who knows about it.

Page 4542

 1             JUDGE KWON:  You said this was your report, Mr. Mandic?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, Your Honour.  This was

 3     done by the professional services, and it was placed in context, as it

 4     were.

 5             You see that this is the Central Commission for the Exchange of

 6     Prisoners of War that was established before the Ministry of Justice.  So

 7     the Ministry of Justice could not initiate the establishment of the

 8     Central Commission when it was established before the ministry, itself,

 9     was established.  So there's a mistake in this report.  It probably has

10     to do with the activities of the ministry and somebody from the ranks of

11     the professionals wanted to make a contribution as if this were another

12     thing that was done by the Ministry of Justice.  But if you look back,

13     you'll see that the commission was established on the 8th of May, and I

14     was appointed on the 12th of May, and I was the first employee there.

15     Now, was it someone from the old ministry, the joint ministry, that

16     initiated that?  I don't know.  I mean, some from the ranks of the

17     Serbian personnel, that is.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Mandic.

19             Shall we leave the matter there, and we will resume on Monday

20     morning, 9.00, on the 5th of July.

21             I'm noting again the court scheduling in front of me, and I think

22     it's possible to sit from 9.00 to 3.00.  But otherwise, let me know

23     before we begin on Monday morning.

24             Have a nice weekend.

25                           [The witness stands down]

Page 4543

 1                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.03 p.m.,

 2                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 5th day of July,

 3                           2010, at 9.00 a.m.