1 Thursday, 1 July 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everybody. Good morning, Mr. Mandic.
7 I hope you had a good night, good sleep, good rest.
8 Mr. Tieger.
9 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
10 WITNESS: MOMCILO MANDIC [Resumed]
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 Cross-examination by Mr. Tieger: [Continued]
13 Q. Good morning, Mr. Mandic.
14 A. Good morning, Mr. Tieger.
15 Q. Mr. Mandic, yesterday you alluded to the personnel selection
16 process in the MUP, and I understand that you could tell me many details
17 about the manner in which that process angered Serbian officials as a
18 result of certain actions by the SDA and by the Muslims; correct?
19 A. Could you clarify that question?
20 Q. Between the time of the election of the national parties and the
21 ultimate split of the MUP, there was a process of installing personnel at
22 various levels of the MUP, correct, and making selections of personnel to
23 assume those positions?
24 A. Yes, that's correct.
25 Q. And there was considerable controversy and many tensions
1 surrounding that process; right?
2 A. Yes, correct.
3 Q. And on various occasions, you and members of the Bosnian Serb
4 leadership expressed anger at the positions taken or actions taken by
5 members of the SDA or Muslim officials within the MUP; is that right?
6 A. Yes, correct. Let me explain, Mr. Tieger, since you've
8 Q. And I'll certainly give you an opportunity to do that. But if
9 I could just complete this process of questioning, and then to the extent
10 further elaboration is required, certainly you'll be in a position to do
12 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President.
13 I've been noticing that these questions are very leading, and I
14 was wondering -- it seems that we're getting past preliminary issues now,
15 and I would object, actually, to the leading nature of these questions.
16 JUDGE KWON: He's a Chamber witness, and the Prosecution is
17 allowed to put leading questions, whatever impact it may have on the
18 weight. That's the question I raised with you, Mr. Robinson.
19 MR. ROBINSON: I hadn't understood that the Chamber had actually
20 made a decision that both parties would then be allowed to cross-examine
21 the witness. But if that's your decision, that's fine. Thank you.
22 JUDGE MORRISON: That's the way it follows, Mr. Robinson. Once a
23 party has been called by the Court or Chamber, everyone else is entitled
24 to cross-examine. It's not a question of us making that decision. It
25 flows from the fact he's the Chamber's witness.
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger.
2 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. Mr. Mandic, the next question I wanted to ask was this: The fact
4 is that all of the parties, the SDS
5 ensure selections on the basis of ethnicity; correct?
6 A. That's correct, Mr. Tieger.
7 Q. And is it also correct that all of the parties in power made
8 unreasonable demands in connection with that process?
9 A. No, no, that's not correct. May I explain, Mr. Tieger?
10 Q. Now you may explain, and I'll ask you further questions about
12 A. As far as I know, the winning parties who were in a collation,
13 the Serbian Democratic Party, the SDA and the HDZ, at the republican
14 level, at least as far as the Ministry of Police is concerned, had agreed
15 about the distribution of senior posts. The first man in the police was
16 to be a Muslim, the second man a Serb, and man number three was to be a
17 Croat. And the same system applied in public security and in state
18 security. As for districts and municipalities, it was agreed that in a
19 district or a municipality where one ethnic community is in the majority,
20 a member of that ethnic majority would be head of the police. A member
21 of the second-largest community would be police commander, and the third
22 ethnic community would provide the chief of the Crime Department. And
23 that was the system in all of Bosnia-Herzegovina. It was not decided
24 individually or differently in every municipality or district. It was a
25 blanket principle.
1 Did I make that clear, Mr. Tieger?
2 Q. I think so, Mr. Mandic. And if the Court has any questions,
3 they'll certainly inquire.
4 The question I had asked you earlier was not about the
5 over-arching principles or guide-lines for the selection of personnel,
6 but instead about the actual implementation of that agreement. So when I
7 asked you whether or not there was controversy or tensions involved in
8 that, and you indicated, Yes, I understood that to be your indication
9 that as the process went forward, there were conflicts surrounding the
10 individual selections. Is that accurate?
11 A. Correct, Mr. Tieger. And I can explain that using the example of
12 the appointment of senior officials in the State Security Service. In
13 that service, the post number 2 [as interpreted] belonged to a Croat, and
14 the post number 2 belonged to the Serbs. In the meantime, the head of
15 that service, with his associates, changed the staffing system and
16 excluded the post that belonged to the Serbs, so that at the level of --
17 what had been agreed at the level of the republic was not implemented, as
18 far as appointments were concerned. And that was one of the problems
19 about which the Serbian Democratic Party complained and asked that the
20 previous -- previously-agreed system be implemented with regards to
21 appointments in the police. And that went on in certain districts where
22 certain heads of security refused to implement the inter-party agreement.
23 Q. And all of the parties, in the context of the guide-lines you've
24 just explained, were interested in ensuring that the personnel that they
25 wanted in place were, in fact, put in place; correct?
1 A. I don't know about the personnel of other parties. I know about
2 the personnel from the SDS
3 Vito Zepinic was man number 1 in the ministry from the Serbian community,
4 I know it was the position of the SDS
5 career policemen, be appointed to senior posts. I was never a member of
6 the party and that was my case, and I wasn't even politically active. I
7 got that post because I was 15 years a policeman, I was a judge of the
8 Regular Court
9 Mr. Karadzic only in 1991, when I was nominated for that position.
10 Before that, I didn't even know about his existence. And it was at the
11 insistence of Vito Zepinic that I got that post, and the assistance of my
12 own brother, who was a teacher at the school in Vraca. And I can say
13 with all certainty that all the personnel, at least as far as the Serbian
14 community is concerned, were career policemen who had until then occupied
15 various posts in the Ministry of the Interior and the State Security
16 Service. And as far as I know, there was not one man who was recruited
17 from the ranks of civilians or from other services to work in the
18 Ministry of Police. And I'm only talking about Serbs on the police
20 Q. Well, notwithstanding the background you've just explained, and
21 your own personal background, Mr. Mandic, I want to get to the bottom
22 line on the nature of the process that took place from the elections
23 until the split of the MUP. And in that connection, I wanted to ask you
24 about something you said in the Stanisic/Zupljanin case.
25 And in that case, at page 9453, you said the following:
1 "The parties in power had very unreasonable demands of us in
2 places where no Muslim was the top man. A Muslim had to be appointed at
3 all costs, at the demand of the SDA. The SDS did the same. They
4 insisted on appointments of their own people."
5 A. Precisely, and that's what I'm trying to explain. The SDS on
6 several occasions protested in writing and asked that their personnel be
7 appointed to those posts that were assigned to them by the inter-party
8 agreement. And I believe that in the Stanisic and Zupljanin case, the
9 letter of Mr. Karadzic was shown, a letter which asks that the
10 inter-party agreement concerning appointments be observed. The chief of
11 police was to be a Muslim. The chief of personnel was also to be a
12 Muslim. And these two men were able to do or not to do whatever they
13 wanted, as far as appointments are concerned, and all that was left to us
14 was to insist that the inter-party coalition agreement be honoured.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. The transcript says
16 "the chief of police was to be a Muslim," and the witness actually said
17 "the chief was a Muslim."
18 JUDGE KWON: Do you confirm, Mr. Mandic, that's what you said?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the chief of personnel was
20 from the Muslim community, with the proviso that in autumn 1991, they
21 replaced the chief of that service, but his replacement was also a
23 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Karadzic.
24 Let's continue, Mr. Tieger.
25 MR. TIEGER:
1 Q. And the national parties in power identified particular persons
2 whom they wanted to assume particular posts and pushed for the
3 appointment of those people; isn't that right?
4 A. No, Mr. Tieger. Let me explain.
5 The rule was that the ruling parties from the district that the
6 appoints an individual nominate three candidates who meet the formal
7 requirements; a university degree, no criminal record, et cetera, the
8 basic requirements for someone to be admitted into the police. Out of
9 these three nominations, we in the ministry decided who of the three
10 would be selected.
11 Let me give you an example. In Foca district, the man number 1
12 in the police went to the representatives of the Muslim community.
13 People from Foca, from the SDA, sent three nominations. Mr. Hasan Cengic
14 insisted that it be one of his relatives, Cengic, who graduated from
15 medresa. We appointed Hilmo Selimovic, who was a career policeman. And
16 then there occurred protests, and Mr. Cengic started sending me letters
17 that I'm not appointing Muslims, that I'm interfering with the personnel
18 policy, et cetera. This Hilmo Selimovic is now the first policeman in
19 the canton, and I, in agreement with other representatives of both the
20 Muslim and the Serb community and the ministry, made a decision on that
21 appointment to avoid a controversy among the personnel in the police and
22 in the SDA party. And this is the way in which we dealt with the
23 maximalist demands of various parties, and we deflected them. And until
24 then, there was harmony within the ranks of the police, until a different
25 man came to the Personnel Service.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have a remark to make about the
2 transcript. About the word "medresa," there should be recorded that he
3 was -- the man was a "hodja," which is a Muslim cleric.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, Mr. Mandic is speaking much
5 too fast.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Line 15, 14 and 15.
7 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, thank you.
8 When you would like to intervene, Mr. Karadzic, please put a
9 pause, because both the witness and you are speaking the same language.
10 Wait for the translation to be concluded.
11 And the interpreters noted that you are speaking a little bit
12 fast, Mr. Mandic. Please bear that in mind.
13 Please continue, Mr. Tieger.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Tieger, I know that -- that's
15 what I'm trying to say, there were maximalist demands, and that happened
16 with the SDS
17 the narrow circle of leadership. I mean party leaders on the local
18 level, in districts where, for the most part, individual party leaders
19 were pushing their own people to various positions. I gave you the
20 example of Foca, where I made the appointment with the agreement with the
21 then chief of personnel, Hilmo Selimovic, Minister Delimustafic, and
22 Bruno Stojic. I appointed Hilmo Selimovic, who was a policeman with long
23 years of service and who is now policeman number 1 in Sarajevo instead of
24 a man who was a "hodja," a relative of one of the leaders of the SDA.
25 I think I can still find this man's letters and complaints in my
1 archives. His name was Cengic.
2 MR. TIEGER:
3 Q. Mr. Mandic, you mentioned both the broader circle of the SDS, SDA
4 and HDZ and the narrow circle of leadership involved in this process.
5 The fact is that -- I'm sorry, you were nodding, Yes. The fact is that
6 Dr. Karadzic got quite involved in this process; isn't that right?
7 A. Well, as far as appointments in the police are concerned, no.
8 For a while, Vito Zepinic made all the decisions about that, or, rather,
9 Rajko Dukic, and then I took over that role of the personnel man number 1
10 in the police, and you have to believe me if I say that Mr. Karadzic
11 never gave me a call saying, Mandic, go ahead and appoint this and that
12 man. There were calls from various party leaders in districts and
13 municipalities. Why? Because Mr. Dukic, who was the chief of personnel,
14 had agreed at republic level which posts would belong to which parties,
15 or, rather, ethnic communities; the Serbian, the Muslim, and the Croat
16 communities. And Dr. Karadzic insisted that this agreement that had been
17 signed be honoured. And in two or three places, this was never done, up
18 to the end of the war, the post of the chief of police in Sarajevo, the
19 post of the chief of security, and one other post. I can't remember
20 which. There was pressure on us from the local level, from districts.
21 Q. Mr. Mandic, let me draw your attention to something you said in
22 the Stanisic/Zupljanin case, and that was at pages 9654 through 55 of
23 that transcript:
24 "Dr. Karadzic liked to meddle in these cadre problems. He always
25 wanted to have a finger in the pie."
1 First of all, Mr. Mandic, is that an accurate reflection of what
2 you said?
3 A. I'm afraid, Mr. Tieger, that you might have taken that out of
4 context. Would you tell me what kind of personnel we were talking about?
5 What was that relating to? Was it about personnel at republic level or
6 all personnel at the level of municipalities and districts included.
7 Q. No, Mr. Mandic, you tell me what aspects of the cadre problems
8 Dr. Karadzic liked to meddle in.
9 A. I would just like a clarification of what you just quoted. What
10 was that discussion about? Was it personnel within politics, or the
11 police force --
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just suggest that we read out
13 that portion entirely.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Which page, Mr. Tieger?
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 9654.
16 MR. TIEGER:
17 Q. Mr. Mandic, you have the transcript in front of you. It's 9654
18 through 9655 of the Stanisic/Zupljanin testimony. And I can read it out
19 for you or you can -- I see you have documents in front of you. Maybe
20 you have it there.
21 JUDGE KWON: Since the Chamber has not the transcript before us,
22 if you could read out the relevant passage, if you find it necessary,
23 Mr. Tieger, for the benefit of the Chamber.
24 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour.
25 The question related to the second half of 1991, and the question
2 "So after you held the meetings and tried to resolve that within
3 your own house first, after that you wrote a letter to the Presidency and
4 the government and the Presidential Commission for the Protection of the
5 Constitutional Order, that is to say, all the relevant institutions, you
6 wrote to all of them and pointed out the irregularities and unlawfulness
7 of the work of the MUP?"
8 And you said that was your duty, all you were doing was your job.
9 And then the question was:
10 "And, finally, due to the fact that your letters did not bear
11 fruit, letters to the top state institutions did not bring any results,
12 you addressed the public in September and then again in February and so
13 forth, and in your addresses to the public you were joined by the Serbian
14 Democratic Party or Dr. Karadzic; is that right?"
15 And then you said:
16 "Yes, Dr. Karadzic liked to meddle in these cadre problems. He
17 always wanted to have a finger in the pie."
18 Q. And I ask you to explain the nature of the cadre problems that
19 Dr. Karadzic liked to meddle in.
20 A. I probably meant that he was meddling in an attempt to support us
21 in our insistence that the personnel policy be honoured, because
22 Dr. Karadzic politely asked several times the minister of police and the
23 coalition partners that the coalition agreement be honoured at the level
24 of the republic. That means that the executive posts that were to be
25 given to Serbs should be given to Serbs.
1 As for other aspects of meddling with that policy, I can say with
2 full responsibility that Dr. Karadzic never interfered, nor did he ever
3 ask for individual people to be given individual posts, but he insisted
4 that Nedjo Vlaski, who was elected to become head of state security, be
5 given that appointment, and that was the way in which he meddled, if that
6 is called meddling.
7 Q. Well, perhaps we can look at a few conversations that you had
8 with Dr. Karadzic during that period of time.
9 And I'd like to turn first to 65 ter 30113.
10 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, Mr. Tieger.
11 Mr. Tieger, for our reference, do you by any chance have the
12 65 ter number for his transcript in the Zupljanin case,
13 Stanisic/Zupljanin case? Do you have that in e-court?
14 MR. TIEGER: I don't believe it's up-loaded yet, Your Honour. We
15 can do so.
16 JUDGE KWON: No. Just for my information. Thank you.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I, while we're waiting for the
18 document, observe that a finger in the pie is probably an English idiom,
19 and it is probably not a good translation of what the witness actually
21 JUDGE KWON: I think that's the subject -- proper subject you can
22 deal with during your cross-examination.
23 Mr. Tieger.
24 MR. TIEGER: Okay.
25 65 ter 30113 is a conversation between Mr. Karadzic and
1 Mr. Mandic on the 22nd of July, 1991, and perhaps we can play a portion
2 of that.
3 And, Your Honour, I would also -- for the sake of expediency,
4 perhaps it would be useful to provide the witness with a binder that
5 contains the transcripts of any intercepts we may play for the Court.
6 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
7 MR. TIEGER: Mr. Mandic, we'll play this for the Court and for
8 you now, and you'll find the transcript at tab 1 of the binder that was
9 just presented to you.
10 [Audio-clip played]
11 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Is it the office of Mandic?
12 "Yes, is Mandic there, please?"
13 "Yes. Who is speaking?"
14 "Radovan Karadzic."
15 "Just a moment, please."
17 "Good afternoon."
18 "Doctor, it is Slavko, Draskovic."
19 "How are you?"
20 "Fine, thank you."
21 "Did you do anything today?"
22 "We gathered, compensating for some things."
23 "I see."
24 "Regarding Cedo, we just ... Momo went to see me and we'll
25 probably finalise it quickly. And regarding other things, Mico is here
1 and so on."
2 "I see, fine. Push it, don't let it happen. Don't give up one
4 "We won't, but we'll have to ... just a moment, Doctor, Momo
5 would like to talk to you."
7 "Just a moment, Bye."
8 "Have a nice day."
9 "Thank you."
10 "How are things, Momo?"
11 "Well, President, I took power, and you can do whatever pleases
13 "Sure, sure, who doesn't know how to take power shouldn't have it
14 at all."
15 "I have, I have already appointed myself and you can do whatever
16 you want."
17 "You just take it."
18 "I'm joking. I went this morning to see Alija Delimustafic.
20 "And I told him that we had a meeting last night and that the
21 party concluded that Cedo Kljajic cannot be replaced without agreement of
22 the Serbian Democratic Party."
23 "Not a one ..."
24 "That is our personnel."
25 "... personnel, not a one person can be appointed without our
2 "We had a meeting today and Alija saw ... so I told him: Alija,
3 please, let's not create problems and ... another MUP and so. And Alija
4 agreed. We agreed to meet today with Hilmo, Alija, Osman Jasarevic in
5 order to solve the Kljajic case. I told them: If he did something, it
6 is lack of discipline. You should explain your arguments and we shall
7 appoint a new Serb who is regular, who respects the rules and so on. If
8 there are no grounds, you cannot replace him. You cannot do anything
9 without the party."
10 "Yes, yes."
11 "And I told him that Dr. Karadzic sent his regards and that the
12 SDA cannot appoint Serbian personnel. Fine, Momo, he said. In general,
13 he agreed to finalise the matter today and I think that Cedo Kljajic will
14 keep the position."
16 "He said: So Vito accepted? And I said, no, Vito. What do you
17 mean Vito? You know that the party does not ... him any more ... he
18 said, in that sense, immediately, immediately, President ... even
19 minister does not want anything to do with him. Immediately."
20 "Yes, yes."
21 "He changed the story immediately."
22 "Yes, yes."
23 "Like, he blew it, this, that, in that sense and so on."
24 "Yes, yes."
25 "I called Jasarevic to stop everything. I have the decisions."
2 "I'm dictating this to Radmila, and I'm going to take it to
3 Simovic and Krajisnik."
5 "That thing, our conclusion from last night."
6 "When Hilmo comes there, tell him not to play games, because none
7 of them would come out clean and unaffected. Everybody's career will be
8 questioned if you fuck up with Serbian personnel."
9 "President, Alija just told Hilmo that I would hear from him
10 today. I ... and when I finish this."
12 "Because they blame now Mico Stanisic for -- they worked over the
13 weekend. Avdo Hebib established a group concerning some guns. However
14 it is all according to the law, legal and everything."
15 "I see."
16 "Because Mico Stanisic gave some arms to SUP, SUP
17 and CSB
18 regular, everything is according to the law."
19 "Yes, yes."
20 "The committee has been formed, but Stanisic was not informed.
21 That is all. You know the structure of the committee."
22 "Tell them not to play games because they will go to hell."
23 "Mico and myself went to see Avdo Hebib. We made some trouble
24 there and Alija got down to earth. He said, all right, Momo, finish that
25 business with arms and Kljajic case. So you know that I have been
1 working all this time."
2 "Fine. Do you have any information ... They appointed a man in
3 Prijedor on Friday afternoon. There is a Muslim commander. There now, a
4 Muslim mayor and Muslim Chief of Defence, Territorial Defence."
5 "I don't know, I will check it."
6 "They want Miskovic. He was retired, but he is a young man. He
7 could be active again."
9 Yes, they say he is all right. I've met him in ..."
11 "... right person."
12 "Fine, President, I will do it now. Prijedor is it?"
13 "Yes, Prijedor."
14 "And that is our position?"
15 "Yes, the position of commander is ours."
16 "Yes, they appointed the mayor. They should have appointed the
17 commander immediately so he can take up his duties at the same time;
18 isn't that so?"
19 "In Prijedor. Slavko in Prijedor."
20 "Miskovic. I don't know his name."
21 "Fine. Miskovic has not been appointed. Slavko says that he is.
22 He thinks that he has been."
23 "I see. But look at this, they fucked up something in Drvar.
24 They appointed certain Maksic who is no good and the party does not
25 support him. There it should be Zoran Srdic and Kunjadic, and not ..."
2 "But, President, I don't think they have appropriate education
3 level, but I'll check. Titov Drvar?"
4 "One hasn't got one, one has."
5 "Just a moment."
6 "I think this one has one. But don't appoint Maksic, for God's
7 sake. If he has to be appointed, let it be there."
9 "Because he is stopping everything and it wouldn't be good if he
10 was there."
11 "I see."
12 "Because he was there until now and he is involved with old
13 personnel and in knavery and everything. So, he should not be
15 "Fine. Fine, President. That old guy, what's his name?
16 "Old Maksic, he's no good."
18 "He is no good. Cross him out."
20 "Kunjadic and Zoran Srdic are good ones."
21 "Good, good, President, we will sort it out with Slavko, since
22 it's a police matter."
24 "We'll do it today."
25 "To appoint some Pecanac?
3 "Not our personnel."
4 "Yes, yes."
5 "No problem."
6 "Our personnel will go."
8 "Okay, President."
9 "Thanks a lot."
10 "We will inform you."
11 "We'll be in touch."
12 "Have a nice day."
13 "Just be hard on them."
15 "Whenever you're right, be hard on them. There is no other
17 "Have a nice day."
19 MR. TIEGER:
20 Q. First of all, Mr. Mandic, I take it you recognise the voices in
21 that conversation?
22 A. Yes, yes, that's Mr. Karadzic, myself, and Slavko Draskovic, who
23 was deputy chief of police.
24 Mr. Tieger, what we heard just now confirms my assertions;
25 namely, that it was from the local level that pressure was exerted to
1 have certain persons appointed. They even did that through Dr. Karadzic.
2 How could Dr. Karadzic know of a person from Drvar, whether he is good or
3 not, if someone from the party from the district had not called him and
4 asked him to tell us?
5 As for this Cedo Kljajic, secondly, we insisted, because he was a
6 policeman for many years, that he remain in that position, but he did not
7 suit some of the Muslim people who were in the police. It seems to me
8 that you can see in this conversation that the local party chiefs exerted
9 pressure to appoint individuals to particular positions, whereas I
10 insisted that they should meet the formal requirements; that they should
11 have university degrees, that they should not have a criminal record,
12 that they meet all the formal requirements for these jobs. And I think
13 that you can see that on the basis of this conversation.
14 Q. Of course, Mr. Mandic, and I wasn't suggesting that Mr. Karadzic
15 knew, from the moment he assumed the position of president of the SDS,
16 every potential candidate in every municipality without checking. So as
17 you've indicated, local officials would be in contact with Dr. Karadzic
18 and he would relate -- put pressure on him, is what you said, and he
19 would relate to you who the candidates should be?
20 A. He just received these suggestions from these local people. But
21 for the most part, we observed what had been set out at the very
22 beginning, what kind of personnel policy was established in the MUP; that
23 it should be longstanding policemen; that he should have a university
24 degree; and that he was fit for that position. Dr. Karadzic never told
25 me something like, That person does not meet the formal requirements,
1 he's a criminal, or, He does not have the right kind of degree, but
2 nevertheless appoint him to that position. No.
3 I think, at least as far as I'm concerned, that I was rather
4 independent, but of course I did honour my own associates and other
5 people from the party; say Rajko Dukic. As for Radovan -- I beg your
6 pardon, Dr. Karadzic, no, I think only as far as the most important posts
7 are concerned that the leadership of the Serbian Democratic Party was
8 interested in.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Intervention of the transcript.
10 Page 17, line 20. The witness said he would forward it, and here it says
11 "received suggestions," whereas these suggestions were forwarded from the
12 local people.
13 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Mandic, is it correct you said you forwarded the
14 suggestions from these local people?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not me. President Karadzic would
16 forward to me suggestions and requests made by party leaders at local
17 level. President Karadzic -- well, I mean, I knew. It wasn't that
18 President Karadzic was doing this personally. He didn't know these
19 people. These were suggestions and pressures that were coming from the
20 local level of various political leaders that I knew about, and I never
21 understood this to be personal pressure on the part of Mr. Karadzic for
22 particular jobs. It was a forwarding of proposals from local level
23 that -- proposals that were made by certain leaders of the Serb
24 Democratic Party at local level.
25 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Mandic.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
2 MR. TIEGER:
3 Q. Mr. Mandic, are you suggesting that Mr. Karadzic did not insist
4 that the SDS
5 entitled, and which Dr. Karadzic thought the SDS was entitled to, were
6 not honoured and were not implemented?
7 A. Would you please repeat that question? I'm sorry. I'm not
8 exactly concentrated.
9 Q. Wasn't Dr. Karadzic insistent that the SDS nominees to the
10 positions that Dr. Karadzic believed the SDS was entitled to actually be
11 implemented and those people be put in place?
12 A. Mr. Tieger, Dr. Karadzic did that when there were several
13 interventions, when the inter-party agreement was not being honoured, and
14 when we, in the police, at the level of the Ministry of the Police, could
15 not carry this through, then we asked the head of the party, the
16 leadership of the party, to have this resolved at the level of the
17 presidents of the ruling parties, Mr. Alija Izetbegovic,
18 Mr. Radovan Karadzic, and Mr. Mate Boban, because these were crucial
19 positions, key positions, in the police. Karadzic intervened only when
20 we, within the police, were not able to resolve that.
21 Q. Who was Mr. Gavrilovic?
22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. Did I pronounce it correctly, Gavrilovic?
24 A. There is such a surname, yes, Gavrilovic, but I don't know.
25 Q. Was he nominated to an important post?
1 A. I'm sorry. What was his first name, this Gavrilovic person?
2 Q. I don't have that post -- this first name. Did you know a man
3 named Bojic, or Tomic, who were appointed to positions?
4 A. Tomic is a frequent surname among the Serbian people, so I don't
5 know who it is, whereas Zivko Bojic is a friend of mine from school who
6 was head of the Crime Prevention Service in Banja Luka. That's that
7 Zivko Bojic. There are quite a few people who have the same surname and
8 who are not related in spite of that. I cannot remember any other Bojic.
9 Q. Well, let's turn to 65 ter 30165. That's a conversation on the
10 26th of August, 1991. You'll find that at tab 2, Mr. Mandic.
11 [Audio-clip played]
12 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Who is speaking?"
13 "Radovan Karadzic."
14 "Good afternoon, Mr. President."
15 "What are you up to?"
16 "I'm in the meeting. There are some problems with Srebrenica,
17 commanders, et cetera."
18 "It was not only a problem with Srebrenica but also with
19 Gavrilovic. Who has made that decision to replace him? We decided to
20 appoint him to the position of that guy who retired, but nothing is
21 getting done. What are these people thinking of? Who made Bojic
22 candidate for inspector? Who appointed Tomic? Can that Selimovic give
23 answers to certain questions?"
24 "President, I would like to see you to discuss this. We need to
25 agree and I would then pass on your views."
1 "Listen, tell them immediately, if they don't correct these
2 things, we shall ... appointments that are all nominations and
3 appointments that are basically political functions within one week."
5 "That is basic and feel free to tell this to Selimovic."
7 "All nominations are political issues. All nominations come from
8 the parties, and they cannot appoint one single person without our
10 "Okay, President."
11 "Tell them. Tell them now."
13 "That we will consider him to be directly responsible. This will
14 all pass, as well as criminal prosecutions, and we will make a list of
15 people that will be criminally prosecuted, whoever fucks with us."
16 "President, I will immediately with ... sit down and that."
17 "And please tell that Gavrilovic was moved from the position of
18 inspector for traffic violations. We nominated him instead of that one
19 who left, who left, who was retired."
20 "Up there as instructor?"
21 "That Milan
25 "We nominated Gavrilovic for his position. We are replacing him.
1 That means that anyone coming from the SDS is being replaced, like we are
2 denouncing people. When we give support to someone they ... him ..."
3 "Yes, yes."
4 "As if we are not in power, fuck them. What do you think they
5 are doing and how long they intend to act that way?"
6 "President, we will finish it all."
7 "I will see Izetbegovic today. I will tell Izetbegovic exactly
8 what I mean, and it become public soon. When it comes to Selimovic and
9 everyone in SUP
10 criminally prosecuted."
11 "Fine, President, I will remain with Selimovic and discuss
13 "Tell him severely that it is enough of that and I will request
14 to terminate all appointments and to nominate people that SDS ..."
15 "We'll see about Gavrilovic, Tomic, and that one there ..."
16 "I don't want to hear about Tomic. Tomic is not our candidate in
17 any case."
18 "I know he isn't, President, I know he isn't. We will appoint
19 our man, President."
20 "Okay, and I will see that Cedo is appointed to the position that
21 is appropriate for him."
22 "I talked about that with Hilmo that Cedo should take the place
23 of Obrad here ..."
1 "Okay, I see."
2 "We basically agreed about all of that."
3 "Fine, fine. And if they want and if Selimovic and Hebib intend
4 to live their life peacefully and have careers, they should be careful
5 about what they do."
6 "I will today ..."
8 "I will try to finish with Selimovic and I will inform you."
9 "I will be at 5.00 at the Deputy's Club."
11 "If you can ..."
12 "Fine, President."
13 "I will go soon."
14 "Okay, President. Hilmo Selimovic says hello."
15 "Thank you. Say hello to him and tell him all of this."
17 "In a sharp manner."
18 "Okay, President, have a nice day."
19 "I will let you know."
20 "Thank you."
21 MR. TIEGER: Your Honours, I may make one suggestion or an option
22 for the Court, and that is it is possible to listen to the actual
23 conversation on the B/C/S channel and follow the transcript on screen.
24 You may be doing that already, but I wanted to alert you to that
1 Q. Mr. Mandic, again, I take it you recognise the participants in
2 that conversation.
3 A. Yes, yes, Mr. Karadzic and myself.
4 Q. And I'll ask you again. Who was Gavrilovic?
5 A. I don't know, believe me. I don't know who any of these people
7 Q. Mr. Mandic, how often were you in contact with Dr. Karadzic in
8 connection with these personnel or cadre matters?
9 A. Well, as far as telephone contacts are concerned, you have all of
10 those telephone conversations, because Munir Alibabic listened to me from
11 beginning to end and he handed it all over to you. So you have all of
12 those telephone conversations. As for actual meetings, if something was
13 difficult, complicated, sometimes I'd go to see him, but that was very
15 As for these -- well, I repeat once again, Mr. Tieger, when we
16 could not resolve problems, then we turned to the heads of parties on the
17 one side or the other, or the third, for that matter. These were
18 probably some complaints that went yet again through certain individuals,
19 the heads of regional parties, who complained to Dr. Karadzic, and then
20 he intervened with me to have all of this accommodated and to have
21 professional people appointed to posts from the territories where these
22 regional and municipal leaders wanted particular people in particular
23 positions. I think that that was the problem. These were the maximalist
24 requests put by all political parties, and that is what it has to do
25 with. It doesn't have to do with the top, the center, the republican
1 level, but the municipal and regional levels.
2 MR. TIEGER: And, Your Honour, before we go too far, I should
3 have tendered those -- both those documents.
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes, you haven't tendered the previous one, so --
5 MR. TIEGER: Correct.
6 JUDGE KWON: But I should stand corrected, but is it not the
7 first time that we are hearing evidence of one of the participants in the
9 MR. TIEGER: Yes, I agree, Your Honour. I know previously we've
10 been MFI
11 guide-lines for admission.
12 JUDGE KWON: I recall the Chamber's ruling that when we decided
13 to mark for identification all those intercepts, we said the authenticity
14 and reliability of intercepts should be established by further evidence,
15 such as hearing from the relevant intercept operators or the participants
16 in the intercepted conversation, themselves. So unless there's a
17 challenge from the Defence as to the legality or something else, if the
18 witness confirms the content of the intercept, i.e., that such
19 conversation -- if he confirms such a conversation took place, the
20 Chamber is minded to admit the intercepts.
21 Do you like to comment on that, Mr. Robinson?
22 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President.
23 We would ask that they be excluded under Rule 95. We accept that
24 with respect to Rule 89, the foundation has been laid for intercept
25 evidence, but nevertheless these particular intercepts were before the
1 war, and as I understand it, it was illegal -- they were illegally
2 intercepted. And, therefore, under Rule 95, it's our position not to
3 admit them in this Tribunal, where we try to maintain the highest
4 standards of international justice, that it would be antithetical to the
5 interests of justice to admit illegally-intercepted conversations.
6 Thank you.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just add something?
9 JUDGE KWON: I don't think so at this time.
10 Mr. Robinson and Mr. Karadzic, the Chamber is of the view the
11 Chamber will benefit from having a submission in writing from you.
12 In the meantime, we'll mark those intercepts for identification.
13 And no doubt the Prosecution will have an opportunity to respond to the
14 submission from the Defence.
15 MR. TIEGER: We certainly will, Your Honour. This matter has
16 been raised repeatedly in this institution, and the Tribunal has ruled on
17 it repeatedly and consistently.
18 JUDGE KWON: We'll give an MFI
19 and 165.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. 65 ter 30113 will be MFI
21 P1079, and 65 ter 30165 will be MFI
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I -- may I just
23 say something?
24 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Mandic.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've already said that, and I state
1 that once again. I do not recall the individuals that were being
2 discussed here. I do not remember this conversation, but I did recognise
3 my own voice and that of Dr. Karadzic.
4 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
5 MR. TIEGER: Mr. Mandic, I want to turn next to a conversation
6 which is 65 ter 30291. That's found at tab 3 of your binder. That took
7 place on the 30th of September, 1991. And I wanted to play that in
8 connection with the question of how regularly you were in contact with
9 Dr. Karadzic in connection with these matters.
10 [Audio-clip played]
11 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Good afternoon."
12 "Good afternoon."
13 "Mr. Karadzic, please. Deputy minister calling."
14 "Good afternoon."
15 "Dr. Karadzic?"
16 "One moment, please, deputy Mandic is on the line."
17 "Thank you."
21 "Good afternoon, Mr. President, how are you?"
22 "Very well, thank you."
23 "Well, I don't know what, we called on Friday and finished it."
24 "I was in Belgrade
1 "Went to visit my son."
2 "And where is he?"
3 "He's at the military academy up there."
4 "Ah, nice. Is he well?"
5 "Excellent. A bit homesick, he only just left, so I had to go,
6 he was crying a bit and so on, but it will be okay."
7 "Aha, aha."
8 "Away from home, from his mother and so on."
9 "Aha, yes, yes. How long, when did he leave?"
10 "Well, some 10 or 15 days ago."
11 "Ah, he's in his first year then is he?"
12 "First year, yes, yes, military academy."
13 "Are you in your own office or with this guy, Selimovic?"
15 "With him?
16 "Yes, yes."
17 "Let me tell you, well I sent these guys for that job to be
18 definitely done."
19 "And regarding, who did you agree with Mr. President, regarding
21 "Hebib said ..."
23 "For me to give five names to ..."
24 "Very well."
25 "To get a job over there at the fifth Administration where Vlaski
2 "Aha, where Vlaski was, five of them is it ..."
3 "Five, yes, because the SDA has, he said until, until, I don't
4 know what now, I would like you to do that so that he doesn't, some
5 gratitude, but anyway that is my basis."
6 "Well, I'll get Hilmo, will do that, if Hebib agreed with you
7 then there are no problems."
8 "And shall I tell them that, I think you have, you have all of
9 their documentation there except for one more. You have four sets of
10 documents there."
11 "Four is it? Get it for the last one and let them come and see
14 "During the day, Mr. President."
15 "During the day."
16 "Let them come see me."
17 "Agreed. Otherwise, anything else new?"
18 "Well, nothing really, no problems or anything."
19 "Aha, okay, agreed."
20 "Did you receive that Mr. President?"
22 "What Slavko brought you, the papers and such, the stuff I was
23 asking you about the other day."
24 "I think he did, I think he did, but I'm not sure, I think he
2 "I think he did."
4 "Okay. Now we have to be in touch almost daily."
5 "Very well, Mr. President."
7 "Talk to you later."
8 "Have a nice day."
10 MR. TIEGER:
11 Q. Again, Mr. Mandic, do you recognise the participants in that
13 A. Dr. Karadzic and myself.
14 Q. Now, this conversation took place on the 30th of September, 1991
15 I take it there was a lot going on at that time in connection with
16 personnel selection, and Dr. Karadzic asked you to be in touch almost
18 A. I think at that time we were already behind with filling
19 vacancies, and that was becoming a problem in the Ministry of the Police.
20 If we know that early that year we took these jobs and we were about to
21 make personnel changes and reforms within two or three months, and we
22 were already in September, we were already six months behind with the
23 appointments, and it was becoming a problem already at the level of the
24 whole Socialist Republic of Bosnia
25 September/early October, and the personnel changes and the appointment of
1 appropriate people in appropriate positions had not been completed, and
2 that was a problem.
3 MR. TIEGER: And, Your Honour, I would tender that to be marked
4 for identification at this stage.
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
6 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI
7 MR. TIEGER:
8 Q. Mr. Mandic, you mentioned, during the course of this morning,
9 various maximalist demands, unreasonable demands, and so on, emanating
10 from the national parties. At some point, did you raise the issue or
11 suggest the possibility before your MUP colleagues of arresting both
12 Dr. Karadzic and Izetbegovic in order to forestall ethnic tensions?
13 A. Well, that was just before the war, when, at a meeting of the
14 professional collegium, Mr. Alija Delimustafic said at one point, Let's
15 arrest our bosses, Mr. Izetbegovic, Radovan Karadzic, and Mate Boban.
16 But he insisted on Karadzic and Izetbegovic. And then, Between us, we
17 will resolve all these problems in peace. Of course, that was not
18 possible even, because Mr. Izetbegovic was the elected president, head of
19 state. The police couldn't arrest him. But they could arrest
20 Mr. Karadzic. And that was just a conversation, thinking aloud, between
21 me and Alija Delimustafic, knowing that we must do something, because we
22 could no longer stand all that pressure and all that was going on in the
23 police, in the Ministry of the Interior. It was said more in jest than
24 seriously, because in effect, under the law, we did not have the right to
25 arrest the head of state. But I know that after that meeting, people ran
1 to Alija Izetbegovic to tell him that as a joke, and some sychophants
2 from among the Serbs went to see Karadzic and tell him, Look, these
3 people and Alija Delimustafic want to arrest you. Of course, that was
4 not serious. I knew very well what was possible and what was not, and we
5 didn't mean it, of course. But that there were suggestions like that,
6 yes, it was true.
7 Q. Now, you spoke yesterday about the dispatch that you sent on the
8 31st of March, 1992, splitting the MUP. I wanted to ask you some
9 questions, relatively briefly, I hope, about the backdrop to the sending
10 of that dispatch.
11 First of all, let me turn your attention to 65 ter 00217, and
12 those are the minutes of the first meeting of the Ministerial Council of
13 the Assembly of the Serbian People of Bosnia-Herzegovina, which was held
14 on the 11th of January, 1992. And I believe you had an opportunity to
15 see and discuss that document during the course of your Krajisnik
17 Do you see that document in front of you now, Mr. Mandic?
18 A. Yes, Mr. Tieger.
19 Q. And just to set the backdrop to that document: You recall the
20 establishment of the Bosnian Serb Assembly on the 24th of October, 1991
21 A. I know that it was established, but I was not there at the
22 Assembly at the time. I know it was established on that date, but I did
23 not participate in that founding session.
24 Q. And the establishment of the Bosnian Serb Assembly was a response
25 to the declaration in the Bosnian Assembly, the Joint Assembly,
1 concerning independence; is that right?
2 A. I don't know. I'm not sure. I was not a part of that,
3 Mr. Tieger.
4 Q. Well, let's look at -- and one more question, and that is that:
5 Following the establishment of the Bosnian Serb Assembly, the Council of
6 Ministers was established, and you were aware of that; correct?
7 A. I read that in the Serbian Gazette 1/92, the gazette of the
8 Serbian people.
9 Q. And looking at the minutes of the first meeting of the
10 Ministerial Council on 11 January 1992
11 English, and if we could also change the B/C/S page for the witness's
12 benefit, if you look at item number 2, "Execution of tasks resulting from
13 the declaration of the promulgation of the Republic of the Serbian People
14 of Bosnia and Herzegovina." And, Mr. Mandic, you were aware that on
15 January 9th, the Assembly declared the promulgation of the Republic of
16 the Serbian people of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is, the republic was
18 A. Probably. I'm not sure. I did not participate in that. I'm a
19 witness here, and I'm going to tell only about things that I know for
20 sure. When I'm called here as an expert, then I'll explain this.
21 Q. Looking at the second paragraph under that item, that is, the
22 execution of tasks resulting from the declaration, it states:
23 "It was concluded that the priorities springing from the
24 declaration included the defining of ethnic territory, establishment of
25 government organs in the territory, and the economic disempowerment of
1 the current authorities in the Socialist Republic of BH," that is,
3 And, Mr. Mandic, I bring this to your attention because at a
4 meeting you attended on the 11th of February, 1992, in Banja Luka
5 position of the Council of Ministers was raised. And if I could draw
6 your attention to 65 ter 05413.
7 And, Your Honour, with respect to the previous document, that's
8 an associated exhibit. I can tender it now or it can come in along with
9 the other exhibits associated with the previously-admitted 92 ter, as the
10 Court wishes.
11 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber hasn't discussed how to deal with those
12 associated exhibits, given that he's now a Chamber witness. But in the
13 meantime, I would like you to tender as you deal with them, in the course
14 of your --
15 MR. TIEGER: Very well, Your Honour. Then I do tender that
17 JUDGE KWON: It will be admitted.
18 THE REGISTRAR: As P1082, Your Honours.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I say something?
20 I was not able to have admitted a single document if the witness
21 did not know anything about it.
22 JUDGE KWON: I took it that you are of the opinion that all those
23 minutes should be admitted. The Chamber will discuss it.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger, do you like to reply to Mr. Karadzic's
2 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I take this to be, and I assume I'm
3 going to receive an affirmation to this, that this is more in the nature
4 of Dr. Karadzic expressing some dissatisfaction with the responses to his
5 previous submissions. I understood the Defence on repeated occasions to
6 be encouraging the admission of all such documents, as the Court has
7 noted. And, in fact, there was if not a joint submission, a mutual
8 submission, much earlier with respect to such documents, beginning with
9 the Assembly records, and then discussing other forms of official
10 contemporaneous documentation. I'm confident these are records that the
11 Defence has asserted to the Prosecution repeatedly it wants to have
12 admitted. I don't think they've resiled from that position. So as I
13 understand it, this is more in the nature of some observation about the
14 admission of the documents he tendered, rather than the admissibility of
15 this particular document or documents of this type.
16 This document should be admitted. I would have laid a much more
17 elaborate foundation if there was any reason to think that the Defence
18 position was otherwise. We're going to spend a lot of unnecessary time,
19 as Mr. Robinson, himself, has previously noted, if there isn't a
20 consensus about the admission of contemporaneous official records of this
22 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Tieger.
23 However, the Chamber finds that the consistency is a great
24 important factor, to be consistent with our previous practice. We'll
25 mark it for identification, so that Exhibit P1082 is marked for
1 identification. Thank you.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may say so, Mr. Tieger is
3 right, it's a question of principle, not of substance. Of course, the
4 documents that Republika Srpska produced are not going to be disputed by
5 us, but I'm talking about the principle. I was not able to have admitted
6 even documents that the witnesses were aware of.
7 JUDGE KWON: Your point has been taken, Mr. Karadzic.
8 Let's continue, Mr. Tieger.
9 MR. TIEGER: Thank you.
10 Q. Mr. Mandic, have you in front of you now the minutes of a meeting
11 held in Banja Luka on the 11th of February, 1992?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You attended that meeting; correct?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. And at that meeting, Mr. Stanisic raised, for the benefit of
16 those in attendance, the position of the Council of Ministers; is that
18 A. Is there a question, or should I give a comment, or what?
19 Q. No. I'm asking to you confirm that at that meeting, Mr. Stanisic
20 informed those present about the decisions of the Ministerial Council and
21 the position of the Ministerial Council.
22 A. Yes, you can see that from the first sentence, where Stanisic
23 says that in the Socialist Republic of BH, the territory under the
24 Serbian control, that control must be felt. I don't know what control
25 he's talking about, when at that time it was still a unified
1 Bosnia-Herzegovina. I can't understand this sentence uttered by
3 Q. Well, in fact, Mr. Stanisic explained at the meeting, did he not,
4 that work was to be done on the organisation of a Serbian MUP, starting
5 with municipal and regional branches and working up to a Serbian
6 ministry, itself?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And if we look at the conclusions of that meeting on the last
9 page or second-to-last page in English. That's page 4, and for the B/C/S
10 it will be the previous page. And, in fact, one more page back,
11 beginning at Conclusions 1 through 5. Thank you.
12 And that indicates, among other things, that:
13 "The Serbian Collegium, the SR BH MUP, is instructed to carry out
14 all preparations necessary for the functioning of the Serbian MUP after
15 the promulgation of the Serbian Republic of BH Constitution. "
16 That's conclusion number 3.
17 And conclusion number 5:
18 "Not a single decision regarding staffing policies in the SR BH
19 MUP will be implemented without the approval of
20 Deputy Minister Momcilo Mandic ."
21 And just for clarification, Mr. Mandic, when there's a reference
22 to SR BH MUP in this document, is that a reference to the joint MUP, and
23 when there's a reference to the Serbian MUP, is that a reference to the
24 anticipated Bosnian Serb MUP?
25 A. I really don't know. But this part, regarding the SR BH MUP,
1 that's the joint MUP, for sure. Because I mention this assistant
2 minister. That means it's a reference to the joint MUP. Where did you
3 see the Serbian MUP? There's a reference only to the Serbian collegium.
4 Within the joint MUP, a collegium was established including only Serbian
5 members, Serbian staff members. In item 1, item 7, 5, there are
6 references to a collegium of Serb staff members in the joint MUP.
7 Q. Conclusion number 3, the last four words of which are
8 "Srpska Republika, BiH," and "Srpska MUP" previous to that.
9 A. After the adoption of the Constitution of the Serbian Republic
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina. After the adoption of the Constitution, that's
11 probably what was meant. Once formal requirements are met for the
12 establishment of the Serbian MUP, that should be done, and that was done
13 on the 31st of March, 1992, after the Law on Internal Affairs of the
14 Serbian Republic
15 that in great detail in the Stanisic and Zupljanin case, Mr. Tieger.
16 Q. And item number 18, finally, of the conclusions, if we could look
17 quickly at that. And that was to inform the Council of Ministers of the
18 conclusions of this meeting; is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And I didn't ask you this previously, Mr. Mandic, but this was a
21 meeting attended by all leading -- well, virtually all leading members of
22 the -- Serbian members of the joint MUP at that time; correct? Yourself,
23 Mr. Stanisic, Mr. Kljajic, Mr. Draskovic, Mr. Zupljanin, Mr. Bjelosevic,
24 et cetera?
25 A. Yes, correct.
1 Q. And, Mr. Mandic, when you ultimately sent the dispatch on the
2 31st of March splitting the MUP --
3 A. Mr. Tieger, I did not send a dispatch on the division of the MUP.
4 I sent a dispatch on the establishment of the Serbian MUP.
5 Q. When you sent that dispatch, that was at reflection of the
6 decisions of the Assembly in establishing the Constitution and the Law on
7 Internal Affairs and the decisions of the Council of Ministers; correct?
8 A. Correct, and all that is written in the dispatch that I sent, all
9 the legal grounds and instructions. And everything is correctly stated
10 in that enactment, in that document.
11 Q. And in doing so, you were acting on instructions from the
12 political leadership of the Serb people; correct?
13 A. I acted following by the decisions of the Assembly, the Law on
14 Internal Affairs, and the Cutileiro Plan adopted in Lisbon, the so-called
16 of that dispatch. They were somewhere abroad in Europe, attending
17 negotiations. But since the legal requirements had been met, that is,
18 eight days had elapsed from the publication of the Law on Internal
19 Affairs in the "Official Gazette," and I was informed of that by
20 Minister Velibor Ostojic, the legal requirements for sending that
21 dispatch, in other words, the establishment of the Serbian MUP had been
23 Q. And it was the culmination of the process you've just spoken
24 about; the meeting of February 11th, the Council of Ministers, the
25 establishment of the Assembly, the declaration of the promulgation of the
1 state, the Constitution, and the Law on Internal Affairs?
2 A. The meeting in Banja Luka was more a reflection -- an expression
3 of discontent with the work in the joint MUP, not so much the
4 establishment of the Serbian MUP. Many of the 15 conclusions talk about
5 the shortcomings of the work in the joint MUP. Demands are made for
6 everything to be done legally and legitimately, and only a couple of
7 conclusions talk about the establishment of the Serbian MUP. The
8 professional -- the hand of the professional collegium was forced, in a
9 way. All these steps were dictated by something else.
10 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I note the time. I don't know what
11 time the Court wishes to break, but I was a little late yesterday and I
12 don't wish to be so today.
13 JUDGE KWON: I should have informed the parties that unless
14 there's some objection from the parties, we are minded to in a somewhat
15 extended form, so we are minded to have three 90-minute sessions today as
16 well, if the biorhythm of the accused can bear with it. So the first
17 session to 10.30. The second session will be from 11.00 to 12.30. The
18 third session, after having some 45 minutes' break due to some
19 circumstances of the Chamber, the third session will be from quarter past
20 1.00 to quarter to 3.00.
21 So we have five more minutes, Mr. Tieger. If you have some
22 problems --
23 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, it would be extremely helpful to know
24 in advance in future. I have something I would need to change. I will
25 endeavour to do that.
1 JUDGE KWON: Then we'll find out. What time would you like to
2 conclude for today?
3 MR. TIEGER: Well, at the moment I would have to conclude at
4 2.00, but --
5 JUDGE KWON: 2.00. Okay, we'll bear that in mind.
6 Let's continue until 10.30, and the Chamber will come up with a
7 suggestion. Thank you for your information.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Before Mr. Tieger begins, can I
9 just say something?
10 We have sent a submission concerning the time when the Defence
11 will commence its cross-examination. We are concerned that these changes
12 might give us even less time for preparing our cross-examination.
13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. We'll consider the matter as well.
14 I see the time. We'll have a break now for half an hour.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, excuse me.
16 During the break, can I go to my hotel room to take a pill for my
18 JUDGE KWON: As long as you come back in half an hour, I see no
19 problem, Mr. Mandic.
20 THE WITNESS: Ten minutes, ten minutes.
21 JUDGE KWON: I hope the Victims and Witnesses Section can deal
22 with it. Thank you.
23 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.
24 --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.
25 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger, before you resume with the questioning
1 of Mr. Mandic, the Chamber would like to go back to the intercepts that
2 were played in court this morning.
3 Having been played in court and discussed with the witness, the
4 accused objected to their admission on the basis that they were obtained
5 before the war, and thus illegally. As a result, the Chamber decided to
6 mark it for identification, the intercepts, as Exhibit P1079 and
8 ruling on the accused's submission concerning legality. However, in
9 making this decision, the Chamber, mainly myself, overlooked the fact
10 that it has already ruled on this issue in its decision on the
11 Prosecution's first motion for judicial notice of documentary evidence,
12 dated 31st March 2010
13 decision, and provides that the admission of intercepts into evidence
14 does not depend on whether they were obtained legally or illegally.
15 Rather, the Chamber must simply be satisfied that the requirements for
16 admissibility of evidence, provided by Rule 89, are met, and that there
17 are no grounds for exclusion under Rule 95.
18 The Chamber, therefore, reconsiders its earlier decision to MFI
19 the relevant intercepts, and instead, given that the witness is one of
20 the participants in the conversation played, finds that all the
21 requirements of Rule 89 have been met in relation to them. Accordingly,
22 these intercepts should be admitted into evidence.
23 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President, I apologise. I also
24 overlooked that decision. I'll go back and look at it now. And if for
25 some reason we don't feel we've made all the arguments under Rule 95 that
1 we would like to, we can make a written submission, but we understand
2 now. I'll go back and look at that, and I apologise for not bringing
3 that to your attention.
4 JUDGE KWON: Thank you very much, Mr. Robinson.
5 And as to the Defence motion for an extension of time before he
6 starts the cross-examination, Mr. Tieger, I would like to hear from you,
7 if possible, at the end of today's session.
8 MR. TIEGER: Absolutely, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
10 And as for the scheduling for today, we'll sit until -- for this
11 second session, we'll sit until 12.30, and the third session will be just
12 1.00 to 2.00.
13 Let's continue, Mr. Tieger.
14 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
15 Q. Mr. Mandic, I want to turn next to some issues that were raised
16 during the course of your testimony in the Stanisic/Zupljanin case. And
17 in that connection, I'd like to turn next to D88, and that's English
18 page 60 and B/C/S page 75. And I want to -- I'll be showing you a
19 portion of a speech by Mr. Vojo Kupresanin that you were shown during the
20 course of your Stanisic/Zupljanin testimony.
21 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger, have we dealt with the exhibit you dealt
22 with previously before we adjourned?
23 MR. TIEGER: Perhaps not, Your Honour, and my --
24 JUDGE KWON: It will be admitted, unless there's any objection
25 from the Defence. Yes, they will be admitted.
1 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 05413 will be Exhibit P1083.
2 MR. TIEGER: 75, please.
3 Q. Mr. Mandic, you were read out a portion of what Mr. Kupresanin
4 said on that occasion, and it was:
5 "I am against any kind of joint institution with Muslims and
6 Croats. I personally consider them to be our natural enemies. You
7 already know what natural enemies are, and we can never again live
8 together. We can never again do anything together."
9 And you were asked whether you heard others, apart from
10 Mr. Kupresanin, expressing such sentiments in the period of time before
11 the outbreak of the conflict, and your answer was -- sorry, Mr. Mandic.
12 A. Yes, yes, please go ahead, Mr. Tieger.
13 Q. And your answer was:
14 "I've been listening to the same things from 1990 until 2010."
15 A. This is the first time I see this thing with Mr. Kupresanin, this
16 session. I did not attend that Assembly session when Mr. Kupresanin said
17 this. I think that it had to do with the appointment of some personnel
18 in the field of the judiciary, if I'm not mistaken.
19 Q. Now, if you'll focus on my question, Mr. Mandic. At page 9443 of
20 the Stanisic/Zupljanin transcript, the excerpt I just read out to you was
21 provided and read out at that time, and the reason was because you were
22 then asked whether you had heard others, apart from him, express such
23 sentiments. So the issue was not -- the issue was the focus on the
24 expression about natural enemies and living together, rather than your
25 attendance at that particular session.
1 A. 9443? Is it the Krajisnik case or the Stanisic case?
2 Q. Stanisic case. In any event, Mr. Mandic, is hearing that excerpt
3 read out, "I personally consider them to be natural enemies, you already
4 know what natural enemies are, and we can never live together," is it
5 correct that you'd been listening to such sentiments from 1990 until
7 A. Could you please read out my answer? I cannot recall that detail
8 in relation to that Assembly meeting.
9 Q. "Q. Now, did you hear others, apart from Mr. Kupresanin, express
10 these kinds of sentiments?
11 "A. Are you referring to the period before the war, during the
12 war, or after the war?
13 "Q. I'm referring to the period before the conflict broke out in
14 April 1992.
15 "A. I'd been listening to the same things from 1990 until 2010."
16 And I'll continue because it's relevant:
17 "Yes. At the moment, I'm concerned with whether these sort of
18 sentiments were expressed by others in the government or in the Assembly,
19 apart from Mr. Kupresanin."
20 And your answer, Mr. Mandic:
21 "Believe me, Madam Prosecutor, that there were other people who
22 were playing on the Serbian card and trying to ingratiate themselves to
23 Karadzic and others. After that, they would go with their Muslim and
24 Croat brothers and have coffee."
25 A. Yes, yes, that's my opinion, yes. I confirm what I said there to
1 Ms. Korner.
2 Q. And at page 9523, you also testified that there were people in
3 the Assembly who wanted a mono-ethnic state, and you identified some of
4 them; Mr. Brdjanin, Mr. Prstojevic, Mr. Milojevic. Do you recall that?
5 A. Yes, yes.
6 Q. And you mentioned, during the course of your testimony as well,
7 that Prstojevic was another who sought to ingratiate himself with
8 Mr. Karadzic through the expression of such sentiments. Do you recall
10 A. I think that he was trying to ingratiate himself with
11 Mr. Krajisnik, rather than Mr. Karadzic, because he was deputy and
12 represented Ilidza.
13 Q. Well, is it fair to say he would have been trying to ingratiate
14 himself with the Bosnian Serb leadership, including Mr. Krajisnik and
15 Dr. Karadzic?
16 A. I think Mr. Krajisnik only, that he was trying to ingratiate
17 himself to him, because he was the deputy and the president of the
19 Q. Well, in any event, Mr. Mandic, I want to ask you about some of
20 those people you spoke about, some of their positions, and some of their
21 interactions or discussions about or connections with the Bosnian Serb
23 First of all, let me ask you about Mr. Kupresanin.
24 A. I don't know Mr. Kupresanin at all. I never communicated with
25 him, I never talked to him. I think that he was president or some high
1 official in the SAO Krajina. I just saw him a few times at some Assembly
2 sessions that I attended. I don't know anything about the man. I know
3 that he was one of the right-wing persons that we are discussing now.
4 Q. And my interest in asking you about -- my focus in asking you
5 about Mr. Kupresanin is not about the depth of your knowledge about
6 Mr. Kupresanin, but about your indication earlier that the sentiments he
7 was expressing were those that you were familiar with from others in the
8 Assembly or in other positions of authority.
9 First --
10 A. For the most part, these right-wing sentiments or, rather, the
11 Serb nationalism, it was expressed in the Assembly, where some people,
12 like this Kupresanin, whom I really don't know - perhaps I saw him about
13 twice ever in my life at these Assembly sessions - and this came to
14 expression at Assembly sessions. After these Assembly sessions of the
15 Serbian people, or the Joint Assembly, they would go and have coffee with
16 those same people that they had spoken out against, that is, Muslims and
17 Croats. That did happen. I viewed that from the side, viewing it as a
18 person from government, from the police.
19 Now, were they trying to ingratiate themselves with the people in
20 this way? Were they trying to ingratiate themselves with the president
21 of the Assembly or the president of Republika Srpska? That, I really
22 don't know. But, anyway, it seemed like false nationalism to me. It was
23 aimed at the public, as it were. That was how I experienced it.
24 Q. Were you aware that Mr. Kupresanin was a member of the SDS Main
1 A. No, no. I don't know anything about the man, really. He's from
2 Krajina, Banja Luka. I don't know anything about him. I just know the
3 people from Sarajevo
4 Q. Well, you were correct that he had a position of authority in the
5 SAO Krajina. He was the SAO Krajina Assembly president.
6 A. I know that he held a high position in the SAO Krajina, but I
7 didn't know which one. And I know that at these sessions, these
8 assemblies, he represented the SAO Krajina.
9 Q. Well, you mentioned the expressions at the Assembly sessions.
10 Let me ask you to look at some examples of that, if we may.
11 If we could turn to D84; in English, page 26, and B/C/S, page 41.
12 And here we see Mr. Kupresanin speaking again, talking first
13 about the vast territories where Serb municipalities are possible in the
14 region, and the need to annex those territories.
15 And if we turn to -- leave it on the same page in English, and
16 turn to page 42 in the B/C/S, please.
17 Mr. Kupresanin says:
18 "Why are we doing this?
19 "I personally think that our living space and the territory in
20 which we live and work is endangered, and we have to avert that danger.
21 Actually, we have to prevent Muslims from moving into our territories and
23 Mr. Mandic, is that another example of the kind of sentiment you
24 heard expressed in the Assembly and elsewhere --
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection, objection.
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, the witness does not know
3 Vojo Kupresanin, and he cannot speculate about what Vojo Kupresanin was
4 thinking. I was never allowed any such thing, not anything close to
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I really cannot
7 analyse now what Mr. Kupresanin was thinking and what he was saying. I
8 really don't know the man. I did not attend these sessions. I am a
9 witness here. I'm not an expert. I cannot analyse his psyche and his
10 attitude towards other peoples. I really don't know the man, and I
11 cannot analyse him now through these sentences.
12 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Mandic was able to answer the question in
13 general terms, although he didn't know, personally, Mr. Kupresanin. So
14 he may answer the question, if possible, in general terms again, as to
15 the general sentiment.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I said to Mr. Tieger,
17 and I repeat that once again, and I said it in the Stanisic case, among
18 the ranks of deputies, among the Serbian people in the Joint Assembly,
19 and in the Serbian Assembly, too, there were some right-wing persons,
20 nationalists, who advocated, well, a state of the Serb people without
21 other peoples and such-like. But it seems to me that that kind of thing
22 can happen in any country in the world, any nation in the world, any
23 assembly in the world. There was nothing unusual there, nothing that had
24 never happened before or has not happened since. It really didn't say
25 anything special to me.
1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Mandic.
2 MR. TIEGER:
3 Q. And, Mr. Mandic, my -- with that understanding, I'm interested in
4 knowing from you the -- we know that Mr. Kupresanin said this, and I'm
5 interested in knowing from you whether you heard such sentiments
6 expressed by others during the period 1991-1992; that is, that living
7 space was endangered, that danger has to be averted, and that Muslims
8 have to be prevented from moving into Serb territories.
9 A. I do not remember, Mr. Tieger, that anyone had said that.
10 Q. So you were completely unfamiliar with such a sentiment; is that
11 what you're saying?
12 JUDGE MORRISON: Mr. Tieger, that's an unfair analysis. He
13 didn't say he was completely unfamiliar with such a sentiment. He said
14 that he couldn't remember anybody actually saying it.
15 MR. TIEGER: Well, I appreciate that, Your Honour, and maybe that
16 question should be clarified.
17 Q. Mr. Mandic, apart from your inability at the moment to recall a
18 specific occasion or a specific person who said that, were you familiar
19 with that position among deputies of the Assembly, or members of the
20 government, or municipality representatives, during the period 1991/1992?
21 A. Among the members of the government, as far as I can remember,
22 there weren't any. As for the members of the Assembly or, rather, other
23 bodies, that is to say, Assembly, government, the executive, the
24 legislative, I am saying once again I cannot remember whether there were
25 other such people like Vojo Kupresanin. This does not seem to be
1 something that I remember, and I cannot state anything in that regard.
2 However, I'm sure that as for the government -- as for official
3 meetings of the government, such a tone was never used, and nothing like
4 that was said about other peoples living in Bosnia-Herzegovina while I
5 was in government.
6 Q. Well, we'll come to some of the positions of the government at a
7 later stage, but I'm still interested in exploring with you the kinds of
8 sentiments that were expressed at Assembly sessions; not only generally,
9 but specifically by some of the people you mentioned during the course of
10 your Stanisic/Zupljanin testimony.
11 If we could --
12 A. Could you give me an example, Mr. Tieger?
13 MR. TIEGER: Sure. If we could turn to 65 ter 00039.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Just for the record, this has been admitted as
15 Exhibit P921.
16 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
17 MR. TIEGER: And page 77 in the English, page 53 in the B/C/S,
19 This is an Assembly session of 8 January 1993, and once again
20 this is Mr. Kupresanin - we'll turn to some of the others
21 shortly - saying:
22 "We say that the war was not necessary in Bosnia and Herzegovina
23 The war in Bosnia and Herzegovina was necessary. Right now, if we were
24 to count the population right now, there would be over," and I believe in
25 B/C/S that may be "around a million Muslims in Bosnia and Herzegovina
1 Bosnia and Herzegovina would be predominantly a Serb republic. Is war
2 necessary in Serbia
3 necessary in Serbia
4 three to five years the Albanians and Muslims will entirely legally
5 overtake the power in Belgrade
6 was necessary for the Serb people."
7 Q. Now, Mr. Mandic, did you hear others express the view that the
8 demographic change, affected by the war and the reduction in the Muslim
9 population, was necessary for the Serb people?
10 A. You're asking for my opinion. First of all, let me explain to
11 you, Mr. Tieger, that this session took place in 1993, when I lived and
12 worked in Belgrade
13 I repeat, I don't know the man, I don't know Vojo Kupresanin. I
14 can't remember anybody saying anything to that effect. I've never seen
15 these words before, the ones that you have just shown me. These are not
16 nationalist words. These are fascist words. I don't have a comment. I
17 don't know what you want me to say.
18 Q. I just want to you answer the question, Mr. Mandic. Did you hear
19 others say that; yes or no?
20 A. I don't remember ever having heard anything of the kind. I
21 really don't remember, I don't remember at all.
22 Q. All right. Let me ask you to look at one more remark by
23 Mr. Kupresanin, specifically. And I want to turn to some others, but I'd
24 you to look at remarks by Mr. Kupresanin at a rally.
25 That's 65 ter 04234.
1 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President.
2 I'd like to interpose a relevancy objection here.
3 If we were trying Tony Blair, for example, would something
4 someone had said in the House of Commons during some debate be relevant
5 at all to what Mr. Blair had acted or what he had thought? And I think
6 this is basically the same thing. There are extremists in every
7 government and every assembly, and how does it really advance the
8 Prosecution's case to show to this witness or ask him to comment on
9 comments like that in the trial of Dr. Karadzic. So I would ask that
10 this line of questioning be ruled to be irrelevant and to lack probative
12 Thank you.
13 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger.
14 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, first of all, we're at the beginning of
15 hearing this witness's evidence, we're at the beginning of hearing
16 evidence about what was said in the Assembly, we're at the beginning of
17 hearing evidence with respect to the relationship between the persons who
18 expressed those views, other members of the Bosnian Serb leadership, and
19 Dr. Karadzic. And, first of all, it's premature in that regard, and I
20 will be showing -- presenting some -- and I'm happy to present some
21 documents indicating that and fleshing that out generally. But to take
22 these comments in the abstract at this moment, before the Court has an
23 opportunity to see the extent to which they were expressed, the reactions
24 to those expressions, the interaction with the people who expressed them
25 and the leadership, is, as I would indicate, premature and prevents the
1 Court from receiving the evidence it needs to hear.
2 And in addition, this is precisely the manner I understood that
3 the Court wished to hear such evidence. We talked about the submission
4 of Assembly sessions in their entirety, and we still wish the Court to
5 hear that, and we'll be in a position to, at that point, identify for the
6 Court, with greater detail and with more clarity, the inter-relations I
7 spoke about and the significance of these comments. So there is value,
8 we submit, to the Court having the opportunity to review these things.
9 This witness has indicated under oath and in an earlier case that
10 he heard expressions, at least, of the desire for a mono-ethnic state by
11 multiple people in the Assembly. I think the Court deserves an
12 opportunity to hear some of those.
13 JUDGE KWON: Just for future purposes: Mr. Mandic, do you
14 understand English?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can understand more than I can
17 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger and Mr. Robinson, although Mr. Mandic did
20 not know Mr. Kupresanin at the time, but I take it Mr. Tieger was
21 exploring the possibility whether there were instances Mr. Mandic heard
22 at the time as to the general circumstances, but then maybe the question
23 that has been put and answered several times, and it's more appropriate
24 to concentrate on the specific cases where Mr. Mandic was present, so
25 with this answer I would like you to move on to other instances.
1 MR. TIEGER: Well, before I do, Your Honour, if I may, I
2 indicated to you we wanted to present to the Court some of the instances
3 of the inter-relations and of linkage of the people mentioned to the
4 Bosnian Serb leadership, and I'd like to explore a couple of those
5 documents now.
6 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
7 MR. TIEGER: Can we turn --
8 JUDGE MORRISON: Sorry, Mr. Tieger, to interrupt, but it's plain
9 that this witness's speculative comments on matters which may be hearsay,
10 if that is the effect of asking him questions about people he didn't know
11 or meetings that he didn't attend, it's -- I speak for myself, but it
12 must be evident to anybody that the probative value of that is extremely
14 JUDGE KWON: Let's move on, Mr. Tieger.
15 MR. TIEGER: Well, Your Honour, I --
16 JUDGE KWON: No, I --
17 MR. TIEGER: Okay. I wanted next to turn to 65 ter 30116.
18 Mr. Mandic, I want to play a portion of this. This is at, I
19 believe, tab 2 of your binder of intercepts, and I'll be asking you about
20 some portions of those. It's a conversation that took place on the 23rd
21 of July, 1991.
22 And if we could play a portion of that for Mr. Mandic and ask him
23 if he recognises the voices on the intercept.
24 [Audio-clip played]
25 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "And you are?"
1 "Vojo Kupresanin."
2 "Oh, it's you, Vojo. I don't hear as well because of the TV.
3 Just a second. I'll get Radovan for you."
5 "Good evening. Hi, President."
6 "Good evening, Vojo. What's up?"
7 "Well, I was in --"
8 "You were?"
9 "I was in the neighbourhood."
11 "And someone told me that you needed me, so I called you."
13 "Was there some -- a meeting today in Dubica?"
14 "Well, I was in Srbac today, along with five municipalities of
15 ours regarding the Savo situation and that --"
17 "We analysed the economic situation and problems as well as
18 assistance and the creation of staff. But they were in Dubica last
19 night, well as far as I know, I wasn't there. Well, actually, I wasn't
20 invited at all, I heard that Brdo and Grahovac were there."
22 "And that they were with Babic."
24 "And that the Party President Vukic was there."
1 "They made some kind of agreement, regarding the referendum. I
2 heard it today. I also heard that a similar meeting, on that issue, at
3 the level of the Krajina Assembly would be held in Banja Luka on Friday
4 at approximately 3.00. Actually, one would be at 3.00 and the other one
5 would be later, around 5.00 or 6.00, in the community centre also, but in
6 the bigger hall."
7 "What referendum, referendum about what?"
8 "Referendum about Krajina. That's what I heard today."
9 "Are they fucking nuts?"
10 "So, what do you suggest for us to do?"
11 "I beg you, Jovo, don't do things that you could be arrested for.
12 We're not entitled to violate the Constitution, we will now start
13 negotiations with the Muslims. Today, we had two meetings with them
14 about the historical agreement between the Serbs and the Muslims to
15 maintain Yugoslavia
16 the police here are informed about it and the Muslims are angry. We are
17 negotiating with them to keep Bosnia
18 to Bosnia
19 and destroying every political action we take."
20 "Well, it's good if it's like that. It's okay, can I have
21 contact with you tomorrow?"
22 "Please, a meeting of the Main Board is on Thursday. On
23 Thursday, we will finally clarify if that's the party that makes us over
24 there, whether those people that belong to the party that conducts such a
25 policy or if it's some other party. We have to clarify this. I can't do
1 my job if somebody unauthorised does some things somewhere. That is an
2 unauthorised act. That couldn't be done without the Main Board. What
3 were they thinking?"
4 "You know, I would suggest that all the participants in the Main
5 Board be present.
6 "All of them. Well, they are all obliged to come because the
7 executive committee is to be formed. They should all be there, they
8 should all come, too, because we want to issue an epistle, which is, we
9 are making steps that will most certainly create the best possible
10 results for us. And to listen to Milan Babic, who only runs around
11 without asking anyone. Maybe he thinks he's the smartest person in the
13 "So, my suggestion was the following: Brdjanin, who is not a
14 member of the Main Board, as well as Grahovac, who is also not a member
15 of the Main Board should come to that session of the Main Board."
16 "Let them come."
17 "But that mistake, that kind of mistake, could that be fatal for
18 all of us?
19 "That was fatal, man! At the first session, they will vote for
20 the termination of mandates and arrest all of you. We may not be able to
21 say anything. They even prepared complete documentation to show it to
22 John Major in England
23 that the Serbs are creating the greater Serbia, and now you're playing
24 right into their hands, as if they're paying you. Fuck, man."
1 "That's incredible to me. Does someone over there think he is
2 smarter than our political council? We are not splitting up. We had a
3 meeting last night too."
5 "We are analysing, asking, asking a child, asking a great
6 academic, we are working normally and then some fools show up making
7 premature steps.
8 "That will happen, Vojo, but they have to be responsible for
11 "They have to make a mistake. They will definitely make a
12 mistake. We know that."
13 "So shall I call you tomorrow?"
14 "Yes, call me, please, and make sure everyone is at the Main
15 Board --"
16 MR. TIEGER: I'm sorry, I stopped that prematurely. If we can
17 just continue for another minute.
18 [Audio-clip played]
19 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "-- the Main Board meeting on
20 Thursday. They have to be responsible and disciplined towards their
21 party or otherwise I will come there and create a new party and new
22 officials. Because, that's not the way it should be. That's
23 irresponsible and could cause a catastrophe for the Serbian people."
25 "What the fuck else am I supposed to do? Who created that
1 fucking regionalisation? Did I secretly influence you and produce
2 documents where we determined what you were to do? The one who wants to
3 be born after seven months instead of nine months, will hardly survive.
4 They want to create some kind of premature child and miss this chance
5 forever. Fuck, they are getting involved in this, like Tudjman is paying
7 "Okay. I will then talk about this tomorrow, very serious --
8 tell them they're not authorised to make shit within this institution,
9 that they have to form another party to do that. And that I will come to
10 Bosanska Krajina and discredit them in front of the people. As long as
11 this the Serbian Democratic Party, it's more difficult for me to deal
12 with our people than our opponents. Fucking shit, is it normal that it's
13 harder for me with our people? Are they all wethers or people? Politics
14 is not run like that. You are not to follow your wishes, but you are to
15 set up an option, and then you make a move in order to be a certain
16 winner. Instead of keeping your plans on your forehead and then you play
17 into other people's hands."
18 "We had a meeting today in Srbac, and we made an agreement that
19 this would be our mutual position, but I think of Belgrade, I think of
21 and where to go. I mean, we also don't have a whole lot of information.
22 Maybe we are not supposed to have those pieces of information."
23 "Vojo, I have said: Now we have to create a structure of the
24 region, realistic structure, which means that we are to form the Culture
25 Fund and SDK Public Auditing Service. So all the money should go through
1 one SDK, the Krajina SDK. So, these kinds of realistic moves, we are not
2 making any spectacular political moves, until they make a mistake,
3 because we do everything within the Constitution. Milan Babic didn't
4 form the SAO Krajina before Croatia
5 their obligation towards the Serbs."
6 "Yes, yes."
7 "So we have to wait for them to violate the Constitution. When
8 they do that, we have everything prepared. I will meet tomorrow and I
9 will tell them what you have just told me and I'll let you know tomorrow
10 and the day after about how everything goes."
11 "Yes, please. And please be responsible towards politics, even
12 children wouldn't --"
13 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Would you please switch off your
14 microphone. Otherwise, the interpreters cannot actually hear the tape.
15 JUDGE KWON: Just a second -- is that what you said? Yes, thank
17 Let's continue.
18 [Audio-clip played]
19 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Yes, please. And please be
20 responsible towards politics, even children wouldn't do such things."
21 "Well, I wasn't there last night. I didn't avoid that but they
22 didn't invite me. I don't know why. Today I have a meeting in Srbac and
23 some people, who were there, Ivastanin was there and he told me what had
24 happened. I told you what he had told me, and now you told me about the
25 possible consequences and that's a very serious thing for me."
1 "Yes, okay. So please call me soon and don't let any mistakes
4 "And I see you at the Main Board on Thursday.
5 "I will call you on your -- home number."
6 "Okay. Call me late in the evening."
9 MR. TIEGER:
10 Q. Mr. Mandic, when you said in the Stanisic/Zupljanin case that
11 Mr. Kupresanin and others were trying to ingratiate themselves with
12 members of the Bosnian Serb leadership through the expression of such
13 sentiments, you were aware, weren't you, that Mr. Karadzic had extensive
14 contact with leaders of the regions and the municipalities throughout
15 Bosnia and Herzegovina, and in particular the areas ultimately claimed by
16 the Bosnian Serbs?
17 A. No, I wasn't aware of Karadzic's contacts with his political
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection. Mr. Tieger implies that
20 we wanted to appropriate our own territories. How can one appropriate
21 territories where one has lived forever?
22 JUDGE KWON: That's a matter for your cross-examination,
23 Mr. Karadzic. The witness has already answered the question.
24 Let's move on.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But I will not cross-examine
1 Mr. Tieger, will I?
2 JUDGE KWON: Let's move on, Mr. Tieger.
3 MR. TIEGER:
4 Q. Mr. Mandic, you were aware, through your dealings with
5 Mr. Karadzic in the context of personnel selections for the MUP, that he
6 had extensive contacts with municipal leaders and regional leaders
7 throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina, weren't you?
8 A. No, I was not aware of his contacts, but I know in certain
9 instances that some people, as I've already explained, used the party and
10 the president of the party to impose some of their staff arrangements on
11 the ground. Those were very rare instances, but you have all that
12 documented in intercepts. And that happened in the second half of 1991,
13 when major problems had occurred because the staff policies agreed in
14 Bosnia-Herzegovina were not implemented, in terms of the police.
15 Q. I want to look at a rally and some speeches at that rally
16 attended by a number of the people you mentioned and members of the
17 Bosnian Serb leadership.
18 And if we could turn to 65 ter 04234.
19 JUDGE KWON: In the meantime, would you like to mark for
20 identification --
21 MR. TIEGER: I'm sorry, that's 40 -- yes, Your Honour. Thank you
22 very much.
23 JUDGE KWON: -- the intercept?
24 MR. TIEGER: Yes, thank you.
25 JUDGE KWON: That will be marked for identification.
1 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI
2 MR. TIEGER: I'm sorry, the document is 65 ter 40035.
3 JUDGE KWON: But in the previous intercept, Mr. Mandic, did you
4 identify Mr. Karadzic's voice there?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I did.
6 [Video-clip played]
7 MR. TIEGER: If we could stop that for a moment.
8 Q. Mr. Mandic, as mentioned, this is a rally conducted on 21st of
9 August, 1994
10 A. I see a TV reporter, and I can see a name, Predrag Radic. Is
11 that it?
12 MR. TIEGER: No. Let's continue with clip 2 of that, and
13 we'll --
14 JUDGE KWON: I'm sorry. Are you watching a video-clip or
15 watching a transcript?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Video-clip. There's a TV reporter
17 and there is Predrag Radic --
18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- on the screen.
20 MR. TIEGER: I think it's difficult to understand why Mr. Mandic
21 might have the beginning of the rally rather than the clip that is,
22 I think, in front most of us at the moment.
23 JUDGE KWON: I had difficulty how come he was seeing a name.
24 Yes, he was watching it.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we be given the exact 65 ter
1 number? We're not sure that we have the exact number.
2 MR. TIEGER: 40035.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 JUDGE KWON: Are you able to identify the person who is speaking
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. The only person I can identify
7 is one of the escorts to Mr. Karadzic. And I believe that this person
8 with the moustache is Stojan Zupljanin, he looks like him. And the
9 speaker, I don't know who that is. The man sporting a moustache is
10 probably Stojan Zupljanin. And this person here is one of Mr. Karadzic's
11 escorts. And I don't know the speaker, I don't know who that is.
12 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Mandic.
13 Mr. Tieger.
14 MR. TIEGER: Okay. Let's continue that excerpt. This is
15 Mr. Kupresanin speaking, as we can see in transcript of the rally. Let's
16 hear a portion of what he has to say.
17 [Video-clip played]
18 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "There's no Muslim state in the
19 Serbian land, the land that has been ours forever. There is no Muslim
20 people, and the entire world knows this."
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise. Could we pause for a
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There is a major problem with the
25 translation. He didn't say "there's no Muslim state." He said "there's
1 no Islamic state." The difference is huge.
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes, that will be checked into later on by the CLSS,
3 and with that caveat, we'll continue.
4 [Video-clip played]
5 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "There are only Serbian people in
6 these parts. There are Serbs who are Orthodox, Serbs who are Catholic,
7 and Serbs who are Muslim.
8 "Under 6, we must urgently determine Serbian territories and
9 borders and present them to the Serbian people for their acceptance,
10 because there is no state without a set territory, a territory demarcated
11 and borders demarcated. Bosnia
12 MR. TIEGER: Show number 3.
13 [Video-clip played]
14 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Mr. Radoslav Brdjanin, people's
16 Mr. Tieger, switch off, please.
17 [Voiceover] "Brothers and sisters, dear people of Krajina, and
18 all other patriots who have come to this rally, we must not succumb to
19 the greatest deceit that we are voting for war or peace. We are voting
20 for the betrayal or rescue of Republika Srpska. Those leftist forces
21 which are offering us co-existence again must know that it is the
22 obligation of the Serbs over the next hundred years to wipe their feet
23 from the foul non-Christians who have befouled this soil of ours."
24 MR. TIEGER:
25 Q. Mr. Mandic, I indicated to you that this was also attended by
1 members of the Bosnian Serb leadership, including Mr. Krajisnik and
2 Mr. Karadzic. And let me turn quickly to their comments.
3 Clip 4, please.
4 [Video-clip played]
5 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Momcilo Krajisnik, president of
6 the Assembly of Republika Srpska."
7 "Dear brothers and sisters, my dear people of the Krajina on both
8 sides of the Una River
9 predecessors, I feel great satisfaction at being at this gathering here
10 today, satisfaction at seeing the fruits of our struggle for our homeland
11 in actuality."
12 MR. TIEGER: And clip 5, please.
13 [Video-clip played]
14 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Our goal is that all this we are
15 fighting for today becomes a united state. May God grant this. All the
16 territory now called Republika Srpska or Serbian Krajina will be Serbia
17 MR. TIEGER: And clip 6, which follows immediately afterwards.
18 And, Your Honour, at the conclusion I'll present the time codes for the
19 benefit of the record.
20 [Video-clip played]
21 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Brothers and sisters, president of
22 Republika Srpska, Dr. Radovan Karadzic has the floor."
23 "Dear brothers and sisters, Serbs from both Krajinas, from
25 Neretva River
1 state, and two hundred years Karadjordje's uprising to renew the state
2 has lasted, and what is happening today is the conclusion of
3 Karadjordje's rebellion. If Karadjordje had to stop at Dobrun, on the
4 other side of the Drina
5 everything, but we must complete it. Our enemy has brought us to the
6 most beautiful and most sacred goal of ours."
7 MR. TIEGER:
8 Q. Mr. Mandic, when you mentioned Brdjanin as one of those people
9 who wanted a mono-ethnic state, and when you talked about Kupresanin,
10 it's the case, isn't it, that these two were not isolated extremists
11 expressing marginalised views, but were, in fact, people embraced by,
12 supported by, and connected to Dr. Karadzic and the rest of the Bosnian
13 Serb leadership?
14 A. That's not my opinion.
15 Q. And you weren't aware that Mr. Karadzic, for example --
16 Mr. Krajisnik, for example, as reflected here, supported and praised the
17 words of Brdjanin and Kupresanin?
18 A. Well, you put to me only excerpts taken out of the context of
19 entire speeches. I'm not an analyst. I don't want to analyse the
20 stances expressed in public places where large numbers of people had
21 gathered and these people are trying to win over the masses and telling
22 them what they think they want to hear. I'm not an analyst. I don't
23 know when this gathering took place, where. I'm seeing this for the
24 first time now on the screen. I can't now, based on three or four
25 sentences taken out of entire speeches, confirm your view that they
1 supported Kupresanin or Brdjanin or that they didn't. That was not my
3 I know that Momo Krajisnik, and especially Mr. Karadzic, while I
4 was minister and assistant minister, did not advocate a Serbian state. I
5 know that for a fact. But what they said at rallies for the benefit of
6 the people, I don't know, and I don't want to comment on it.
7 Out of a rally that must have lasted three or four hours, you
8 took out a couple of sentences, and you want me to comment.
9 Q. Well, you were aware that Mr. Brdjanin was an advocate of a
10 mono-ethnic state. What did you hear him state that caused you to
11 understand that?
12 A. What period do you mean; before the war, during the war, after
13 the war? When? I don't understand. I didn't get your question.
14 Q. Well, at the moment I'm not so interested in when Mr. Brdjanin's
15 advocacy of a mono-ethnic state began. I'm interested in knowing the
16 basis and how you knew that that was his position.
17 A. I probably attended some Assembly sessions where he expressed his
18 views and his opinions, because I'm sure that Brdjanin was an MP in the
19 Joint Assembly of Bosnia
20 Serbian people, and he was an MP from Krajina. He was one of those
21 right-wing MPs.
22 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I indicated I would list for the record
23 the time codes of the clips that were played.
24 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please.
25 MR. TIEGER: Clip 2 is at 0:51:19 through 00:52:03. That was
1 Mr. Kupresanin. Clip 3 with Brdjanin speaking is 00:53:32 to 00:54:41.
2 Clip 4A, which was the beginning of Mr. Krajisnik's speech, is 1:10:07
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I make a request?
6 I believe it would be of assistance both to the Chamber and the
7 Defence to know the date and the immediate reason for these rallies,
8 because it must have had something to do with peace conferences, because
9 there was a mention of something that needed to be accepted or not
10 accepted. So it's important to know the date and the occasion.
11 JUDGE KWON: I noted it was 21st of August, 1994, at the
12 beginning, and the reason for the rally is a proper subject for you to
13 pursue during your examination of the witness.
14 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, and I would tender the document in its
15 entirety, along with the transcript, at this time.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I just say a few
17 words, please?
18 JUDGE KWON: Just a minute, Mr. Mandic.
19 MR. TIEGER: And, Your Honour, for the record --
20 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
21 JUDGE KWON: I'm advised, Mr. Tieger, that parts of this clip
22 have been already --
23 MR. TIEGER: P14.
24 JUDGE KWON: -- admitted as P14, and there is a way that we can
25 add the remaining parts to P14, following our previous practice. That
1 will be done.
2 Yes, Mr. Robinson.
3 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President.
4 I would just point out that we believe that this comes outside of
5 the guide-lines with respect to whether this witness could speak to any
6 of those portions. And so while it may ultimately be admissible, we
7 don't think it's admissible through this witness. Thank you.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I --
9 JUDGE KWON: It's time for -- yes, I forgot that request. Yes,
10 Mr. Mandic.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've been trying to tell Mr. Tieger
12 that in 1993/1994, I lived and worked in Belgrade, and I am not at all
13 familiar with the political circumstances in Bosnia-Herzegovina, who was
14 right-wing or not, where rallies were organised, and who participated in
15 all these events. I think it's really superfluous for me to repeat that
16 as far as these years are concerned, I can be of no use either to the OTP
17 or the Defence or the Trial Chamber.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE KWON: I was too quick to give a ruling on my own. But
20 upon second thought, the Chamber is of the opinion that although the
21 witness identified some of the persons who gave a speech in the
22 video-clip, but he said nothing about the content of the speeches, so to
23 be consistent with our previous ruling we'll not admit these video-clips
24 at this moment.
25 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I understand the Court's ruling, and
1 I'm not -- I want to seek some -- I wasn't heard on this, so if the Court
2 will permit me to raise a point; if not for this purpose, then for future
3 admissibility purposes.
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
5 MR. TIEGER: The authenticity of this document is not at issue,
6 clearly. Furthermore, it involves the accused directly. It follows on
7 the heels of testimony under oath by this witness in a previous case,
8 confirmed here, about the general kinds of sentiments he heard and
9 their -- what he perceived as they're being part of an effort to
10 ingratiate the speaker with Dr. Karadzic or other members of the Bosnian
11 Serb leadership.
12 Now, the Prosecution is attempting to explore the kinds of
13 sentiments that were expressed at that time, the reactions to those
14 sentiments, the linkage between the proponents of those sentiments and
15 the members of the Bosnian Serb leadership, and we'll be attempting to do
16 that during the course of the case. It cannot be the case, and this is
17 actually a point argued by Mr. Robinson earlier, that the Court would
18 find it necessary to understand the significance of such evidence to
19 ensure the presence of someone who was personally present at the time.
20 Instead, when a document is relevant or -- and authentic as we -- excuse
21 me, Your Honour. When a document is authentic, then the issue arises
22 whether the context of the witness's testimony thereby makes that
23 document and the discussion of that document relevant.
24 And, again, so I'm not seen as revisiting a ruling the Court is
25 making, I make those submissions as a general point, but that is the
1 point I would have made if I had the opportunity or if I'd taken the
2 opportunity earlier to speak to this document and other documents which
3 we will be presenting during the course of this witness's testimony.
4 These are of assistance to the Chamber, we submit, and hope the Chamber
5 will hear them.
6 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Tieger.
7 Also bear in mind, in your future planning of your conduct of
8 examination, please also bear in mind that the case we are dealing with
9 is of great, enormous size, and we have to think about who will be --
10 although we do not adopt the so-called best-evidence rule, we have to
11 think about who will be the best witness to produce certain exhibits, so
12 we have to think about whether there's a point of putting documents or
13 clips to the witness who knows nothing about the document. So otherwise
14 there's no limit, also in terms of cross-examination or re-examination.
15 That's the point.
16 And I forgot something else, but let's move on with that.
17 MR. TIEGER: Okay, Your Honour. I understand --
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I, Your Excellency, just
20 Mr. Tieger omitted to quote the witness. The witness said: "To
21 themselves with the leadership and the people," although you can argue
22 that in some cases it's the leadership, but in this case, these
23 video-clips, this is a political speech, and it would be ingratiating
24 themselves with the people. And so that somehow was not highlighted.
25 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, I don't think this is a proper,
1 appropriate intervention on your part. That's -- those parts can be
2 examined during your -- pursued during your cross-examination. Let's not
3 waste time anymore.
4 Let's continue.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This only referred to the words of
6 esteemed Mr. Tieger, whom I'm not able to examine.
7 JUDGE KWON: I think you have formed the habit to like to have
8 the last word, but please refrain from doing so, Mr. Karadzic.
9 Let's continue.
10 MR. TIEGER:
11 Q. Mr. Mandic, you mentioned more than once that you weren't
12 sufficiently familiar with Mr. Kupresanin or Mr. Brdjanin. Let me ask
13 you about somebody that I understand you dealt with directly, and that's
14 Mr. Prstojevic. Now, he's another one of those who you said wanted a
15 mono-ethnic state; correct?
16 A. I consider him as a right-wing MP, both in the Joint Parliament
17 and the Assembly of the Serbian people. I know him from Ilidza, because
18 he was also president of that municipality.
19 Q. Well, I want to look at how Mr. Prstojevic happened to be in that
20 position of power and retained that position of power in Ilidza.
21 And in that connection, I wish to turn to 65 ter 20992.
22 Mr. Mandic, that's a discussion between you and Mr. Lugonja on
23 the 17th of April, 1992, which you reviewed and authenticated during the
24 course of your Krajisnik testimony.
25 I'm sorry, did I -- it's 65 ter 30667. My apologies. And,
1 again, Mr. Mandic, it's found at tab 10 of your binder of intercepts.
2 [Video-clip played]
3 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Hello, good morning."
4 "Good morning."
5 "Petar Lugonja needs to speak to Momcilo Mandic, please."
6 "One moment."
9 "Hi, Petar."
10 "Momo, hi there."
11 "Hi Pero. What are you up to?"
12 "Here I am. How's it going?"
13 "It's fucking all right. How about you?"
14 "Well, fuck. Problems, huh."
15 "It's fucking shitty. I wanted to ask you."
16 "What's up?"
17 "Lugonja: Well, I fucking have these three people here in
18 Ilidza. Tomo is pulling to his side because he's from the police. I
19 believe that he's -- that he's mainly right. Then there's Prstojevic,
20 the president of the party and the Crisis Staff, and then there's
21 Kezunovic, the prime minister, you know."
22 "Yeah. It seems that this Kezunovic guy is in some way right
23 most of the time, but Prstojevic is -- he seems to be gathering some kind
24 of scum around himself, some incapable, incompetent people. Does anyone
25 at this moment have the influence to calm this thing down, to find a
1 fourth person who can fucking unite all this?"
2 "Well, I'll call Prstojevic to come in and I'll talk to him
4 "Yes, but it's no fuckin' use. Kezunovic is from up there in
5 Pale and he's a good guy. I guess he took his family up to Pale
6 yesterday and the day before it. He also spoke to Karadzic about
7 something, you know?"
9 "But a new man has to come here, one that can really unite us.
10 "No, if there is discord, they can go fuck themselves, all of
11 them. I'll fucking kill them all."
12 "Come on, Pero, you are the smartest and the most able man
14 "Well, it's impossible."
15 "Koljevic came in last night. They shut themselves in and they
16 won't let anyone in."
17 "Well, yeah, they're running to the boss. All right, I'll talk
18 to Koljevic."
19 "Talk to him. There has been a split and it's been a mess in
20 Ilidza since day one. Don't let us have this man -- he can't give any
22 "All right. I'll take care of mobilisation. We are unable to
23 move people."
24 "Is it possible to reach you there?"
25 "It's possible."
1 "Lugonja: It's possible, but --"
2 "All right. I'll see when I have --"
3 "When these guys get here quickly. It only matters to us that we
4 have someone to get a fuckin' move on."
5 "Agreed, agreed."
6 "Right. Cheers, bye."
7 MR. TIEGER:
8 Q. Now, Mr. Mandic, when you listened to and explained that
9 conversation in the Krajisnik case -- well, first of all, let me say that
10 is a conversation between you and Mr. Lugonja; correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay. And when you explained that conversation in the Krajisnik
13 case, at page 8626 through 8627, you explained that Lugonja thought that
14 Prstojevic was taking people who were not proper and were not behaving
15 appropriately, that they were impeding the setting up of civilian
16 authorities in Ilidza, and that's why he asked to have that problem
17 resolved by President Karadzic. And you explained that there was a clash
18 between Prstojevic and Lugonja; is that right?
19 A. Yes, that's correct.
20 Q. And then you further explained that as a consequence of that,
21 Lugonja left Ilidza, whereas Prstojevic stayed on in Ilidza for a long,
22 long time. So Prstojevic had this stream of his own, so to speak?
23 A. I think it was a conflict at a local level. At least in this
24 case, Petar Lugonja got the short end of it and went to live in Belgrade
25 whereas MP Prstojevic became president of Ilidza municipality, and he
1 stayed in that position for a really long time. And we had more problems
2 with him later, and you will see in that intercept between me and
3 Tomo Kovac, when I even asked Tomo Kovac to intervene as chief of police
4 with regard to Prstojevic.
5 Q. And you were asked why Mr. Prstojevic prevailed in this conflict
6 for local authority, and you explained:
7 "I think that the entire leadership of Republika Srpska had
8 greater confidence in Mr. Prstojevic, and that's how it happened."
9 So it wasn't only Mr. Krajisnik, but it was Mr. Karadzic, too,
10 and Mr. Koljevic; correct?
11 A. Well, I think that, and I still think that, Mr. Krajisnik
12 prevailed, in terms of trust in Mr. Prstojevic. It was his MP in the
13 Assembly. And Momo Krajisnik was protective about members of Parliament
14 and people he worked with in the Assembly, and he had more trust in them.
15 Q. Well, you've said that Mr. Prstojevic was one of those who
16 favoured a mono-ethnic state. Let's take a look at a conversation
17 involving Mr. Prstojevic at 65 ter 30746 to see what views he expressed
18 at the time.
19 And this is tab 14, Mr. Mandic.
20 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What is this all about? Who is on
22 trial here? What do I have to do with -- I mean, there are a million and
23 a half Serbs in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Everyone was free to say what
24 they liked. Mr. Tieger cannot -- can show any number of documents where
25 people expressed extreme views. That's a matter of freedom. We have to
1 work on the basis of documents, the Assembly, the government. Now, based
2 on informal conversations between free men, who have the right to have
3 extremist views, I am being painted in a certain light.
4 JUDGE KWON: I don't find this intervention very helpful to the
5 Chamber, Mr. Karadzic. You can leave it to the Chamber.
6 MR. TIEGER: Well, perhaps it -- thank you, Your Honour, but
7 perhaps it provides some context.
8 Before we break, let me turn to another document quickly. That's
9 65 ter 00028, and it's the 17th Assembly session, which may already be
10 admitted, in fact.
11 JUDGE KWON: In the meantime, you would like to tender that
12 previous intercept?
13 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE KWON: 30667. That will be admitted.
15 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1085, Your Honours.
16 For the record, 65 ter 00028 has been admitted as Exhibit D92.
17 JUDGE KWON: What page, Mr. Tieger?
18 MR. TIEGER: Page 66, Your Honour.
19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could we have the date of
20 an intercept, if that's an intercept ?
21 MR. TIEGER: No, it's not. It's an Assembly session.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have the page in Serbian?
23 MR. TIEGER: Same page in B/C/S.
24 The problem may be that we're still in Sanction.
25 Q. Mr. Mandic, this is the 17th session of the Bosnian Serb Assembly
1 in late July 1992. I believe you attended that session, spoke at that
2 session. This is Mr. Prstojevic speaking, and I'll quote:
3 "When the Serbs started the uprising in Sarajevo, and when they
4 seized control over certain territories, there was no government, or at
5 least it was not known where it was then. Moreover, we did not know --
6 we even did not know if Mr. Karadzic was alive during the first couple of
7 days. When we learnt that he was alive, and when he visited us in Ilidza
8 and encouraged us, the Serbs from Sarajevo
9 territory, and even extended their territory in some areas, driving the
10 Muslims out of the territories where they had actually been majority."
11 Mr. Mandic, is that another one of the comments you heard
12 Mr. Prstojevic make during the course of your attendance at the Assembly
13 or in dealings with him that caused you to understand that he was an
14 advocate of a mono-ethnic state?
15 A. I knew Mr. Prstojevic personally. And from my personal
16 experience, I know that he was at right-wing extremist, that he spoke
17 about a mono-ethnic Serbian state. He was a very opinionated person.
18 That's my personal opinion of him, of course.
19 MR. TIEGER: Thank you. Your Honour --
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection. The witness said
21 "stubborn and opinionated."
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stubborn and opinionated.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Stubborn and opinionated.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He very often did not take into
25 account the opinion of other people, of his own partners, the leadership.
1 He was a negative personality.
2 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Shall we take a break now?
3 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour.
4 Before you rise, I just should note the Prosecution did file a
5 response to the motion for extension of time, and --
6 JUDGE KWON: We know. Thank you.
7 We'll resume at 1.00.
8 --- Recess taken at 12.33 p.m.
9 --- On resuming at 1.05 p.m.
10 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, I was informed that you have something
11 to raise before we -- yes, Mr. Robinson.
12 MR. ROBINSON: Yes.
13 Actually, Your Honour, just in the event that -- we would like to
14 have just one moment to reply to the Prosecution's position concerning
15 our request for a delay in the commencement of the cross-examination of
16 the witness. Would this be an appropriate time or would you prefer to do
17 it at some other time?
18 JUDGE KWON: Once we've started, please do so, and very briefly.
19 MR. ROBINSON: Yes.
20 I just wanted to point out that in the decision that you made on
21 the accused's motion for postponement of the trial on the 26th of
22 February, 2010, at page 40, you indicated:
23 "As the trial progresses should the accused make a reasonable
24 request for more time to prepare his cross-examination of a particular
25 witness or to deal with a particular document which the Prosecution seeks
1 to introduce into evidence, on the basis that relevant material was only
2 recently disclosed to him, the Chamber will consider such a request and
3 may grant appropriate relief."
4 And this is the time. We believe this falls squarely within that
5 paragraph, and because of that, we think that the Chamber envisioned
6 situations like this may occur, and this is one of those situations,
7 given the volume of documents and the lateness of their disclosure to us.
8 Thank you.
9 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. We'll try to give a ruling as soon a
10 possible, possibly tomorrow. Thank you.
11 Mr. Tieger.
12 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 I don't know it's a funny procedural anomaly at this moment. We
14 filed a written response to the written submission. First of all, let me
15 say that normally I think a reply shouldn't be assumed. It requires
16 leave of Court when one is necessary. But what I'm trying to find out
17 now is whether the Court still is seeking an oral submission at the end
18 of the day. I would certainly dispute the basis for the reply.
19 JUDGE KWON: I don't think it's necessary, and I think that
20 Mr. Robinson's reply was in response to your written submission.
21 MR. TIEGER: I agree, and I'm only trying to forestall the
22 procedure whereby, because we're in court, that the normal formalities of
23 written submissions gets circumvented simply because someone rises in
24 court to make an oral submission in a situation that would otherwise
25 provide for written submissions. I'm not --
1 JUDGE KWON: Let's not spend more time. I gave permission.
2 Let's continue, Mr. Tieger.
3 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. Mr. Mandic, just before we recessed, we had an opportunity to
5 look at some comments by Mr. Prstojevic at the 17th Assembly session,
6 some retrospective comments about the period in April. Before that and
7 before Mr. Karadzic's intervention, I had been -- I had intended to play
8 an intercept involving Mr. Prstojevic, and I think that was almost lined
9 up. And that would be 65 ter 30746.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Can we have the date of the intercept, please?
11 MR. TIEGER: Yes, of course. That's 14 May 1992. And we need to
12 be in Sanction for that.
13 [Audio-clip played]
14 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Hello, hello."
16 "Good evening."
17 "God be with you."
18 "How are you?"
19 "It will be better. Tell me ..."
20 "Prstojevic speaking. I'd like to talk to Mrki."
21 "Mrki is not here. Mrki 2 is."
22 "Okay, Mrki 2 then."
23 "Just a second."
25 "Prstojevic: Hello, hello."
2 "Good evening."
3 "Good evening."
4 "How are you? Prstojevic speaking."
5 "I'm Mika's deputy."
6 "Yes, and your name is?"
10 "Why did Mika phone me?"
11 "Phoned you to check with you ... these people in Kotorac ..."
13 "What should we do with them?"
14 "Did you arrest them? What did you do?"
15 "People are down there. On -- just a second. Yes?"
18 "And where are those people? Have they been arrested?"
20 "What then?"
21 "Down there on the road, all of them. Men are separated from
24 "Just a second, just a second."
25 "Up there; right?"
1 "He says men ... I've just received the word. Men are in the
2 Kula Prison, and women went in the direction of Butmir."
3 "Put Tepavcevic on."
4 "Here, here's Novakovic. He'll talk to you. It's Prstojevic.
5 Stop fooling around."
8 "Hi, Neda."
10 "How are you?"
11 "I'm fine. Have you been cleaning Kotorac today?"
12 "They have. I don't know the exact details because I was engaged
15 "Well, if you want, we will call you later."
16 "That's okay. But tell me, please, I beg of you, why did you
17 take the women to Butmir?"
18 "They said women were not in Butmir, but --"
19 "Nedeljko Prstojevic: But?"
20 "Well, in Butmir, yes. Not to KP Dom, but to Butmir. That's
21 where they are going."
22 "They cannot go to Butmir, we'll mop up Butmir in time as well."
24 "Butmir will be mopped up, Sokolovic will be mopped up, Hrasnica
25 will be mopped up."
1 "Well, I don't know where to take them."
2 "They will all ... there's is Bascarsija. Please, take all them
3 to Bascarsija, on foot."
4 "Aha, aha."
6 "Okay, now I'll ..."
7 "And men to prison."
8 "Okay, I'll check with them now and then I'll let you know."
9 "Yes. Tell them, those who convert to Orthodox religion on the
10 spot, they can stay, women and children."
11 "Aha, okay."
12 "Do it, please, but don't make mistakes ... You've done an
13 excellent job, but it means that Butmir will be mopped up in time. Tell
14 that to the people here."
15 "There you go. Cheers."
17 MR. TIEGER:
18 Q. Mr. Mandic, do you recognise the voices of any of the
19 participants in that discussion?
20 A. No, I didn't, no. I don't know who Mrki is. Prstojevic -- I'm
21 not sure, but I believe that one of the voices belongs to Prstojevic.
22 And for the other man, I don't know either the name or the voice.
23 Q. And as I indicated to you, that is a conversation between
24 Prstojevic, Milenko and Mr. Novakovic on the 14th of May, 1992. Is that
25 the kind of information -- that is, what you listened to in that
1 intercept, the kind of information you had about Mr. Prstojevic's
2 activities back in April and May 1992?
3 A. Prstojevic did not participate in those activities. He was the
4 president of the municipality, but I believe that he interfered in the
5 life of the municipality in everything; the work of the police, the
6 military, and other institutions. But I've not heard this conversation
7 before. I was never aware of these particular details. I was aware of
8 some other incidents that he was involved in, and I discussed them with
9 Tomo Kovac. While I provided my testimony in Belgrade and on the
10 Krajisnik case, I heard those intercepts. You played them to me. That
11 was when he had blocked Ilidza and then removed some Muslims from their
12 jobs, and I, personally, and the government were against that.
13 As to this particular intercept, I don't know anything about
14 these particular activities, and this is the first time I hear this
15 intercept at all.
16 Q. Were you aware that Mr. Prstojevic was engaged in removing
17 Muslims from Ilidza?
18 A. He was the president of the municipality, of the local
19 parliament, as it were. He did not agree with the police, and I don't
20 know what his relationship with the military was. But Tomo Kovac, as the
21 head of the local police, did not approve his activities.
22 At this time, or perhaps even before, I talked to Tomo Kovac, the
23 head of police, about problems created by Prstojevic. He had blocked the
24 movement of non-civilian population through Ilidza.
25 You presented that intercept to me, if you will remember,
1 Mr. Tieger, both in Belgrade
2 know to what extent he was engaged. I don't know. I wasn't there.
3 Q. When you said, in the Stanisic/Zupljanin case, that
4 Mr. Prstojevic and his ilk were dangerous, and expressed your disapproval
5 in that case of him, and also indicated that he was a proponent of a
6 mono-ethnic state, weren't you talking about your awareness of his
7 efforts to ensure that Muslims in Ilidza did not remain?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we be given the transcript
9 page, please?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could we be given the transcript
11 page, please?
12 JUDGE KWON: Fair enough.
13 MR. TIEGER: 9523, regarding a mono-ethnic state. 9505,
14 regarding Prstojevic and his ilk and attempts to ingratiate. Also, 9487.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, when I
16 paraphrased, I was asked to quote. Could Mr. Tieger actually quote from
17 the transcript, and could he quote the entire paragraph, please?
18 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
19 Could you reformulate your question, Mr. Tieger?
20 MR. TIEGER: I will, Your Honour.
21 Q. Mr. Mandic, let me go back to the transcript, but first if we can
22 short-cut that. You have a low opinion or you have expressed a low
23 opinion of Mr. Prstojevic; is that correct?
24 A. No, I didn't have a very high opinion of him, and you are right.
25 Q. Okay. And was that because of, despite, or had nothing to do
1 with his views about a mono-ethnic state?
2 A. Well, I didn't know Mr. Prstojevic privately, but I didn't agree
3 with his methods of work in Ilidza municipality. Tomo Kovac, the head of
4 the police in Ilidza, had informed me about those methods of work on two
6 Q. I was asked to read a quote about Mr. Prstojevic from the
7 transcript of the Stanisic/Zupljanin case. Let me read one and perhaps
9 After quoting -- after you were presented with the same Assembly
10 session excerpt we saw just before the recess, that is, Mr. Prstojevic
11 speaking at the 17th Assembly session, about driving the Muslims out of
12 territories where they'd actually been a majority, you were asked:
13 "Now, that appears to be carrying along the same line from
14 Mr. Karadzic was saying. You knew Mr. Prstojevic, and you rang him up to
15 tell him to stop driving Muslims out. Had he actually taken any notice
16 of what you'd said to him?
17 "A. Well, I learned about those activities of his from
18 Tomo Kovac a few days before, and in one intercept I even suggested to
19 Kovac that he arrest or kill the man because he was creating problems to
20 everyone in Ilidza, the authorities and the police. He was really
21 destructive, and you see he was denying the existence of the government
22 and that Mr. Karadzic was alive, et cetera. My opinion of Mr. Prstojevic
23 and his ilk could not be worse. Those people created most of the
24 problems, and many of them ended up here in The Hague."
25 That was later clarified to be that they caused others to end up
1 in The Hague
2 So, Mr. Mandic, you acknowledge here your awareness of
3 Mr. Prstojevic's efforts, and my question is whether or not the contents
4 of the intercept you listened to were consistent with the information you
5 had at the time back in 1992.
6 A. Mr. Tieger -- Mr. Tieger, I adhere by what I said in the
7 Stanisic/Zupljanin case as regards Prstojevic, and there's an intercept
8 of the 2nd of June, 1992
9 You presented it to me, and here I have it under tab 17 or 18. And you
10 will hear that I'm trying to convince Prstojevic to behave within the
11 scope of constitutional law and that the government had received
12 information about his destructive behaviour, and I was imploring with him
13 to stop with all that. One of the things was the complete blockade of
14 Ilidza municipality and about Judge Fadil Musanovic who couldn't work
15 because he was Muslim. I asked him to stop with all that and to bring
16 the man back to work. As the minister of justice, I did not have any
17 authority over him. I informed the government about all that. He was an
18 elected president of the municipality, and he was responsible before the
20 You have that intercept, I have it here, on the 17 or 18, and
21 you'll see that we did discuss his case, that we tried to do something,
22 but he was not within the line of our responsibility and we could not
23 take any effective measures with his regard.
24 MR. TIEGER: And, Your Honour --
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Number 18 here, under tab 18, a
1 conversation between Miljenko, Prstojevic and myself. For the
2 Trial Chamber, could we perhaps play it so that the Trial Chamber could
3 hear what I told him and how I reacted, how the government reacted? I
4 reacted as a member of the government. I tried to persuade those people
5 to come to their senses and not to behave in the way they did, under
6 tab 18 of a binder you provided to me. The document number is 5747,
7 pages 1 through 4.
8 JUDGE KWON: No doubt Mr. Tieger will take care of it.
9 MR. TIEGER:
10 Q. And let me say, in terms of -- first of all, Mr. Mandic --
11 A. Your Honours, I apologise. I would kindly ask you to allow us to
12 hear this intercept of the conversation between myself and Prstojevic,
13 and then everything will become clear. The relationship with the
14 government and that man in Pale will become clear, because he did not
15 enjoy the support of the government in what he was doing.
16 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
17 MR. TIEGER: And just so the Court is clear on this:
18 Q. By "the government," Mr. Mandic, you mean the ministries headed
19 by Mr. Djeric, that is, that arm of the political authorities?
20 A. Yes, yes. I was a government member, and as the government, I
21 intervened, and I asked from Prstojevic to behave as a good Serb, as a
22 person who was not monolithic, who was removing people from their jobs
23 because they were not Serbs. I asked that from him. And here we have
24 the intercept, Mr. Tieger. Could you please play it for the
25 Trial Chamber? I asked Prstojevic to behave within the Constitution and
1 the law, as a good Serb.
2 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I don't have any -- first of all, I was
3 about to say I don't have any objection, but that's not exactly the
4 procedure in which we --
5 JUDGE KWON: I leave it to the parties. Either the Prosecution
6 or the Defence will play the --
7 MR. TIEGER: Fine. I will simply note this is one of the
8 associated exhibits. It's discussed at some length in the testimony that
9 the Court now has in evidence, and that's the reason it wasn't replayed.
10 And, Your Honour, I would tender, as MFI, the intercept just
12 JUDGE KWON: Is this a proper moment to tender that, when the
13 witness confirmed nothing about this?
14 MR. TIEGER: I think in the context of his extensive answer, he
15 talked about his knowledge of Prstojevic, Mr. Prstojevic's activities,
16 and so on. Again, I don't -- he didn't authenticate the intercept in the
17 classic manner, that is, by being a participant, but that's a separate
18 matter, as we've discussed.
19 JUDGE KWON: We'll mark it for identification. Yes, that will be
20 marked for identification.
21 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI
22 MR. TIEGER:
23 Q. Mr. Mandic, I want to move on to some of the government's
24 activities, because you've referred to them.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may say.
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Even more important things I
3 couldn't do. The witness didn't know anything about all that, nothing at
5 JUDGE KWON: Marking for identification has many implications.
6 So when we are -- those will be admitted when we are satisfied with its
7 foundation, in addition to the authenticity later on.
9 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, and please understand I'm not trying to
10 initiate a squabble with respect to this intercept, but it's an
11 opportunity to address a general admissibility issue, and I think it's
12 on -- and I don't want that also to be embedded when it comes time to
13 mark -- to consider the admission of this document later. The witness
14 knows one of the participants, he knows about his activities. We've
15 already established the connection between that person speaking in the
16 intercept and the accused in connection with the same activities that are
17 part of that conversation, so I think it's inaccurate to suggest that
18 there's been no nexus and this document has arisen from nowhere in the
19 course of this examination.
20 JUDGE KWON: I believe the parties will be aware of the Chamber's
21 guide-line or Chamber's practice in relation to the admission of
22 documents, and the Chamber will be consistent with that rule. And while
23 it is still amazing that admissibility is such a hard issue, after the 17
24 years' existence of this Tribunal, let's move on, Mr. Tieger.
25 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I couldn't agree more, and maybe we'll
1 have an opportunity to discuss that with the Court and with the parties
2 at some -- in the near future.
3 JUDGE KWON: We'll see, Mr. Tieger.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I just say two things? One
5 is a matter of principle, and so is the other, but also a practical
7 Could the Defence be asked every time for their opinion about a
8 document tendered for admission?
9 JUDGE KWON: I apologise for that, yes.
10 JUDGE MORRISON: Dr. Karadzic, I think we found out now that
11 you're not a shrinking violet, and I'm sure that if we fail to remember
12 you, you'll certainly remind us straight away.
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes, let's move on.
14 MR. TIEGER:
15 Q. And in particular, Mr. Mandic, I want to move to the period of
16 April 1992, shortly after the outbreak of the conflict.
17 And in that connection, I'd like to turn to 65 ter 00151. And,
18 again, we may be in Sanction, and --
19 Mr. Mandic, this is -- this document reflects the minutes of the
20 meeting of the Council for National Security, that is, the
21 National Security Council, and the government, which was held on the 24th
22 of April, 1992. Now, you were familiar with the National Security
23 Council and, indeed, attended some meetings; correct?
24 A. No. I just attended one meeting, when I was proposed as minister
25 of justice; not before, not after that. I think it was an ad hoc body,
1 and it never actually went through the legal regulations of
2 Republika Srpska. The proposal was that I replace Ranko Nikolic as
3 minister of justice of the Serbian Republic
4 in Bosnia-Herzegovina, yes.
5 Q. Who presided over meetings of the National Security Council?
6 A. I don't remember.
7 Q. At page 8743 of the Krajisnik transcript, you were asked:
8 "Q. Who presided over meetings of the council?
9 "A. Dr. Radovan Karadzic."
10 Is that correct, Mr. Mandic?
11 A. I really don't remember.
12 Q. Well, let's look at these minutes, Mr. Mandic. And if we look at
13 the decisions following item 1, that is, the decisions listed, and turn
14 to the third decision from the bottom of that section:
15 "The National Security Council adopted the decision that the
16 Ministry of Justice shall take over the exchange of prisoners once the
17 organs of the interior have completed their work."
18 You may not see that on your version of the B/C/S, Mr. Mandic.
19 If the B/C/S could be moved to the next page.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I once again caution that the
21 word used here is "zarobljenici" [phoen], not "zatforenjici" [phoen].
22 That can be confirmed by your interpreters. When it says "zarobljenici,"
23 it should be translated as "prisoners of war," "of war," because no one
24 ever exchanged mere prisoners, but prisoners of war.
25 JUDGE KWON: Well, I thank you for your intervention,
1 Mr. Karadzic. In the future, if you'd like to intervene, could you raise
2 your hand before you just speak out. Thank you.
3 Let's move on.
4 MR. TIEGER:
5 Q. Now, Mr. Mandic, after this decision and this meeting, the
6 government then passed a decision to establish a state commission for
7 exchange; correct?
8 A. Just a moment, please, Mr. Tieger. Obviously, I did not attend
9 this session. This is the first time I see this decision that this
10 council - I don't know which body this is, anyway - passed a decision
11 that the Ministry of Justice should deal with prisoners of war after the
12 Ministry of Police. I just know that it was the government that made a
13 decision to establish a central commission for the exchange of prisoners
14 of war. I'm aware of that, and that was one of the first decisions of
15 the government since it came into being. I think it was the first or
16 second document of the Government of Republika Srpska, once it was
17 established. So it wasn't the Ministry of Justice that ever established
18 a commission for the exchange of prisoners of the war. It was the
19 government. The government made this decision, not the Ministry of
20 Justice, because on the 24th of April, Mr. Tieger, there was no Ministry
21 of Justice in the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
22 Q. Well, a couple of things, Mr. Mandic. You just said that's the
23 first time you've seen this document. If we look at page 8743 of the
24 Krajisnik transcript, we see:
25 "Mr. Mandic, P433, the documents before you now, are the minutes
1 of the meeting of the Council for National Security and the government,
2 held on 24th April 1992
3 And then before asking questions about the document, there was
4 some discussion about your attendance of meeting of the National Security
5 Council, who the members of the National Security Council were, who
6 presided over meetings of the council, and then your attention was
7 directed to the contents of the document, including the decisions and the
8 decision that the Ministry of Justice shall take over the exchange of
9 prisoners once the organs of the interior have completed their work.
10 A. Mr. Tieger, I attended a particular meeting when I was proposed
11 as minister of justice. I cannot remember that it was then, and I cannot
12 remember this decision. I know that once I was informed -- or, rather,
13 once the proposal was made to appoint me minister of justice, that was
14 the end of April 1992, for a few days I carried out preparations to
15 establish the Ministry of Justice. And it was only in the beginning of
16 May, I think on the 12th, that I was appointed or elected minister of
17 justice at the Banja Luka Assembly and when I took over the ministry. Up
18 until then, it did not exist.
19 Ranko Nikolic, who was on the Ministerial Council, was the first
20 minister of justice, and people were waiting for the man to take over
21 that duty, but he stayed in Sarajevo
22 Ministry of Police, I was transferred -- or, rather, I was informed the
23 proposal was made that I would take over the Ministry of Justice because
24 I used to work in regular courts as a judge in Sarajevo.
25 I do not remember, but I know with certainty that it is the
1 government that passed the decision to establish a central commission for
2 the exchange of prisoners of war, and I cannot remember the name of the
3 man now who was appointed to that position.
4 Q. We'll look at that decision, Mr. Mandic.
5 You were also asked:
6 "Was the decision adopted on April 24th that the organs of the
7 interior would investigate the captured or detained people, and then once
8 the Ministry of Interior was completed, the Ministry of Justice would
9 conduct the exchange of those people?"
10 And you said:
11 "After this meeting, the government passed the decision to
12 establish a state commission."
13 And then you continued to indicate who would be on that
15 A. That's right. I repeat once again what I said a few moments ago,
16 that the Ministry of Justice did not establish any commission. As for
17 this decision, I really cannot comment upon it because I am not familiar
18 with it. But I do know what happened in the government and in the
19 Ministry of Justice during May and during the rest of 1992.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could all other
21 microphones please be switched off. Thank you.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what kind of body this
23 council was. Was it formal, was it informal, I don't know.
24 JUDGE KWON: Do you remember, Mr. Mandic, that you were shown
25 this document when testifying in Mr. Krajisnik's case?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I allow for that
2 possibility, but I really do not recall. I was a witness for
3 President Krajisnik in 2004, so six or seven years ago. I cannot say
4 with any certainty. But if Mr. Tieger asserts that it was shown to me,
5 there is no reason for me to deny that was certainly the case then. But
6 at this point in time, I simply cannot remember.
7 JUDGE KWON: I have before me that part of the transcript, and
8 then you were shown exactly the same document as this, and you were
10 "First of all, were you present at the meeting at which that
11 decision was adopted?"
12 And then this was your answer:
13 "I don't remember, but probably I was, although I don't
15 Which is different from your answer today.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Believe me, Your Honour, I'm
17 testifying under oath. I do not remember at all a meeting of the
18 National Security Council. I know with certainty that I was invited to
19 one such meeting, but only briefly, when personnel issues were being
20 discussed and when the members of that council informed me that I had
21 been proposed to become minister of justice. Now, whether I attended
22 that part of the meeting or the entire meeting, I don't know. But I
23 really do not remember this document and, therefore, cannot comment upon
24 it. Believe me, I cannot.
25 You know, when promotions were made of certain physical persons,
1 then those persons would be invited to that particular part of the
2 session. But when security issues were being discussed, then only the
3 members of that council were present. Later on, it turned into the
4 Supreme Command or whatever it was called.
5 JUDGE KWON: And you can confirm again at this time of an NSC
6 meeting with the government, the Ministry of Justice didn't exist?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. At that point in
8 time, the Ministry of Justice did not exist.
9 JUDGE KWON: Just one final minor, minor question from me.
10 As to your date of appointment as minister of justice, when
11 Mr. Tieger yesterday summarised your testimony as to your date of your
12 appointment as being May 19th, you corrected that to be May 12th --
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the Assembly in Banja Luka
14 do apologise.
15 JUDGE KWON: At the end of the session, you said you were
16 appointed the 16th of May. Which is correct?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know -- or, rather, if
18 my memory serves me well, on the 12th of May there was an Assembly
19 meeting in Banja Luka, where I was appointed minister and where I took
20 the oath.
21 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger.
22 MR. TIEGER:
23 Q. I'm going to turn your attention to the document establishing the
24 Exchange Commission. But before I do, in connection with its
25 relationship to this meeting of the National Security Council, I'm going
1 to draw your attention to page 8752 of your testimony in the Krajisnik
2 case, where you were talking about the Commission for Exchange, and you
4 "If I may, I would like to try and help you.
5 "After this meeting of the National Security Council of the
6 government, where the decision was taken that the Ministry of Justice
7 would establish the Exchange Commission, after that a government session
8 a state commission was formed involving various ministries."
9 That's correct, isn't it, Mr. Mandic?
10 A. There weren't any ministries. There were people from individual
11 ministries, but it was pre-war ministries, Mr. Tieger. And Rajko Colovic
12 never worked for the Ministry of Justice of Republika Srpska. He was
13 assistant minister for criminal sanctions in the joint government where
14 Ranko Nikolic was minister, and, as such, he came to that commission; was
15 elected, that is. So Colovic -- Rajko Colovic was never an employee of
16 the Ministry of Justice, as far as I can remember, where I was minister,
17 that is. He was assistant minister for the implementation of criminal
18 sanctions in the joint government, and the minister was Ranko Nikolic,
19 who was the first minister of justice of Republika Srpska or, rather, a
20 member of the Ministerial Council that was established in January or
21 December -- or, rather, January 1992.
22 Q. Just following the chronology, let's look quickly at 65 ter
24 Oh, and, Your Honour, if the previous document hasn't been
25 tendered, I would do so at this time.
1 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, in essence, I have no
3 objections, although the witness did not know anything about that
4 meeting. However, I do not object to having this document admitted into
5 evidence; from the point of view of authenticity, that is.
6 JUDGE KWON: The witness confirmed his attendance in one of the
7 council meetings. And then given your position, we'll admit it.
8 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1087, Your Honour.
9 MR. TIEGER:
10 Q. Mr. Mandic, you'll see before you the 8 May 1992 decision to form
11 a central commission. The heading is "Serbian Republic
13 "Central Commission for the Exchange of Prisoners of War,
14 arrested Persons, and the Bodies of Those Killed which remained in the
15 opposite side, is hereby appointed."
16 And it indicates the members of that commission, including
17 Mr. Markovic, as representative of the Ministry of the Interior,
18 Mr. Mihajlovic, as a representative of the Defence Ministry, and it says
19 Rajko, representative of the Ministry of Justice, would be the president
20 of the central commission, is that Rajko Colovic?
21 A. Yes, that was Rajko Colovic, who was a member of the Ministry of
22 Justice but in the joint government. As such, he was included in this
23 commission, because you see, this is the second written document of the
24 government. See, it is dated the 8th of May, and the number is 01-2. I
25 was the first employee of the Ministry of Justice. I was appointed on
1 the 8th of May. Or, rather, this document is from the 8th of May, and I
2 was appointed on the 12th of May, and things intermingled and they did
3 not move as smoothly as they do in peacetime.
4 Rajko was appointed head of this commission before I became
6 Q. So this is one of the first things that the government did?
7 A. Yes, yes. Obviously, this is the second document that was
8 written up. It says "Number 01-2." From this text, it can be seen that
9 it was done urgently, under pressure exerted by the international
10 community and on the basis of what was happening on the ground.
11 Q. And the Exchange Commission was active almost immediately;
13 A. Well, I don't know. I didn't know about that. I cannot give an
14 answer to that.
15 MR. TIEGER: We'll just look at 65 ter 01553, please.
16 JUDGE KWON: Would you like to tender the previous document?
17 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you very much.
18 JUDGE KWON: Unless it is objected to, it will be admitted as
19 Exhibit P1088.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No objection.
21 MR. TIEGER: I might have cited the wrong number, and I
22 apologise. What we should have on the screen is 01533.
23 Q. Mr. Mandic, as we see on the first page of this document, the
24 subject is:
25 "A total of 400 persons who were driven from Bratunac to Pale."
1 And they are listed on the subsequent pages, 18 pages.
2 And if we could turn to the third page in English, and I believe
3 it would be the same in B/C/S.
4 Again, it indicates a total of 400 persons. The date is the 14th
5 of May, 1992, and it is signed by Mr. Markovic, whose name we saw earlier
6 in the decision to establish the Exchange Commission, as a member of the
7 government's commission on behalf of the Serbian Ministry of the Interior
8 for the exchange of prisoners of war, Slobodan Markovic.
9 Now, Mr. Mandic, given the fact that the establishment of the
10 commission was one of the very first things that the government did, is
11 it your testimony that you don't -- you didn't know about these 400
12 people who were exchanged -- these 400 people from Bratunac who were
13 exchanged via Pale on May 14th, 1992
14 A. I never knew of this list or was I well versed in any way in
15 respect of the exchange of these persons.
16 Q. This is the same -- as far as you can tell, the same
17 Slobodan Markovic who was a member of the commission; correct?
18 A. I don't know. I don't know who the man is. I don't know who
19 Slobodan Markovic is.
20 Q. But you knew what the Exchange Commission was; right?
21 A. Well, I knew this Colovic, Rajko Colovic, but I didn't know the
23 Q. And you knew that the commission was comprised of representatives
24 from the Ministry of Justice, the Ministry of Interior, and the Ministry
25 of Defence; correct?
1 A. No, I didn't know that. It was the prime minister who decided to
2 establish the commission that way.
3 I repeat once again, Mr. Tieger, Rajko Colovic was not an
4 employee of the Ministry of Justice of the Serb Republic
5 Q. I'm not going to take you back to the previous passage of your
6 testimony that I did, Mr. Mandic.
7 Let me ask you: Were you -- isn't it the case that part of the
8 impetus for the establishment of the commission was the number of people
9 who were already incarcerated?
10 A. I don't know what the motives were to establish this commission.
11 Mr. Djeric can explain that to you, because he's the one who established
12 it; that commission, that is. The commission was an independent
13 governmental body that was answerable only to the government or, rather,
14 to the prime minister. He could give you the best explanation for that;
15 that is to say, to this honourable Trial Chamber.
16 Q. Well, we'll get into that in a moment. But, again, I'd like to
17 know if the Justice Ministry or its predecessors, in the embodiment of
18 you or other representatives, urged the Presidency to establish a central
19 commission because of the increased influx of incarcerated persons.
20 A. All the information we received came from the prime minister,
21 Mr. Djeric, who was a member of this council and later on of the
22 Supreme Command. The best-informed person in the government was the
23 prime minister, among all the ministers. Everything we knew, we knew
24 from him; we as members of the government, that is.
25 MR. TIEGER: This will be the last document of the day,
1 Your Honour. If we could turn to 16249.
2 Q. Mr. Mandic, I want to show you the report on the activities of
3 the Ministry of Justice and Administration in the period May through
4 October 1992.
5 A. Yes, this is my report.
6 MR. TIEGER: And can we turn to the third paragraph of that
7 report? It states:
8 "Keeping in mind the demands for the successful establishment of
9 the legal state and legal security of citizens, the ministry was forced
10 to take a number of steps, primarily regarding the organisation of
11 penal-correctional organisations, mainly the Butmir KP Dom
12 Penal-Correctional Facility, considering the increased influx of
13 incarcerated persons and the need for this penal organisation to be put
14 to use. The ministry, therefore, urged the Presidency to establish a
15 central commission for the exchange of prisoners of war, incarcerated and
16 wounded persons, and dead bodies."
17 Q. So again, Mr. Mandic, is it correct that the impetus or at least
18 part of the impetus for the establishment of the Exchange Commission was
19 the number of people who were incarcerated?
20 A. Mr. Tieger, only Djeric can give you an answer to that,
21 Branko Djeric, the prime minister who established this commission before
22 the Ministry of Justice was established. I cannot give answers in
23 relation to something that happened before me, that is to say, before the
24 Ministry of Justice was established. Call Mr. Djeric and let him explain
25 it for you. He's the one who knows about it.
1 JUDGE KWON: You said this was your report, Mr. Mandic?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, Your Honour. This was
3 done by the professional services, and it was placed in context, as it
5 You see that this is the Central Commission for the Exchange of
6 Prisoners of War that was established before the Ministry of Justice. So
7 the Ministry of Justice could not initiate the establishment of the
8 Central Commission when it was established before the ministry, itself,
9 was established. So there's a mistake in this report. It probably has
10 to do with the activities of the ministry and somebody from the ranks of
11 the professionals wanted to make a contribution as if this were another
12 thing that was done by the Ministry of Justice. But if you look back,
13 you'll see that the commission was established on the 8th of May, and I
14 was appointed on the 12th of May, and I was the first employee there.
15 Now, was it someone from the old ministry, the joint ministry, that
16 initiated that? I don't know. I mean, some from the ranks of the
17 Serbian personnel, that is.
18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Mandic.
19 Shall we leave the matter there, and we will resume on Monday
20 morning, 9.00, on the 5th of July.
21 I'm noting again the court scheduling in front of me, and I think
22 it's possible to sit from 9.00 to 3.00. But otherwise, let me know
23 before we begin on Monday morning.
24 Have a nice weekend.
25 [The witness stands down]
1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.03 p.m.
2 to be reconvened on Monday, the 5th day of July,
3 2010, at 9.00 a.m.