1 Tuesday, 6 July 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Good morning to everybody.
7 [French interpretation on English channel]
8 JUDGE KWON: We start today with French. I think it's been
10 Mr. Tieger, please continue.
11 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 WITNESS: MOMCILO MANDIC [Resumed]
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 Cross-examination by Mr. Tieger: [Continued]
15 Q. Good morning, Mr. Mandic.
16 A. Good morning, Mr. Tieger.
17 Q. Just before we adjourned yesterday, I had asked you about
18 something you said during the course of the Stanisic/Zupljanin case with
19 reference to what you called the vain professor types, and your reference
20 to the fact that it seemed important for them "to have photographs taken
21 with them," that is, photographs with paramilitary figures and those
22 professor types you're referring to, and you confirmed that. That was at
23 page 4649 yesterday. I wanted then to show you an image and ask you
24 whether or not that was one of the types of photo opportunities or photos
25 that you were referring to.
1 And if we could play 40146 in Sanction for the benefit of the
2 witness and the Court.
3 [Video-clip played]
4 MR. TIEGER:
5 Q. It's a very brief clip, Mr. Mandic. We can play it again, but
6 you may have already recognised the persons depicted in the photograph.
7 A. Could it be -- could it be played again? My screen was not on.
8 MR. TIEGER: Certainly.
9 [Video-clip played]
10 MR. TIEGER:
11 Q. And do you -- first of all, do you recognise the persons shown in
12 that brief video-clip?
13 A. I believe that this happened before the war in Bijeljina, when
14 there were inter-ethnic tensions mounting, and Biljana Plavsic, as a
15 member of the Presidency, and Fikret Abdic, with some members of the
16 government, went to Bijeljina on that occasion because of that, and I
17 believe -- and this was something which was repeatedly aired on
18 BH Television, that she is here hugging and kissing with
19 Zeljko Raznatovic, Arkan. I believe this took place in March 1992.
20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mandic. And was that one of the images you had in
21 mind when you referred to having photographs taken with paramilitary
23 A. I rather believe that this person that I spoke about a bit
24 emotionally yesterday did a job that she wasn't really good at doing, and
25 then, in a sort of exhibitionist way, sought to acquire popularity among
1 the people and become a leader of the people in the given circumstances.
2 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I tender 40146.
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be Exhibit P1108.
5 MR. TIEGER:
6 Q. Mr. Mandic, yesterday there was reference to the 22nd Session of
7 the Bosnian Serb Assembly in Zvornik in November of 1992. That document
8 was admitted. You referred to comments made by a number of individuals,
9 including Mrs. Plavsic, at that session, and I wanted to look briefly at
10 comments by Mrs. Plavsic at page 20 of the English and the bottom of
11 page 19 and page 20 of the B/C/S. And I believe that's now P1105.
12 And, of course, we'll have to leave Sanction and get back into
14 MR. TIEGER: And, Your Honour, for housekeeping purposes, before
15 we address this excerpt, I need to note that the time or code for the
16 previous exhibit was 01:48:20 to 01:48:33. That's the portion that was
18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Tieger.
19 MR. TIEGER:
20 Q. Now, as indicated, Mr. Mandic, the portion of P1105 now shown on
21 the screen reflects remarks by Ms. Plavsic on that date, who says:
22 "I first want to say something that refers to me personally,
23 since Mico Stanisic mentioned my name. I want to avoid any
24 misunderstandings, because people say many things, mostly about the crime
25 that's destroying our country and our people. I don't want you to think
1 this is some kind of rumour. I'd like to respond to Minister Stanisic.
2 It is the truth, not rumour, Minister, that after the statement by the
3 president of the republic, i.e., his call to volunteers in all Serbian
4 lands and all other Orthodox countries, I sent letters to all addresses.
5 My intention was to pay anybody who is willing to fight for the Serbian
6 cause and gather them around, so letters went out. You talk about
7 paramilitary and non-paramilitary formations. You will have to excuse
8 me. That has nothing to do with me. I was looking for the people who
9 are willing to fight for the Serbian cause, who are willing to fight in
10 the territory of Republika Srpska. The letters were sent to the
11 Soviet Union, to Seselj, Arkan and Jovanovic. Do as you like. Accuse me
12 now if you want. I want to make it clear, because this is the second
13 time, Minister, it's not hearsay, I did do it, and you can judge me if
14 you want."
15 And "Applause" is indicated in the transcript.
16 Mr. Mandic, is this the -- are these the comments by Mrs. Plavsic
17 that you were referring to yesterday, at least in part, when discussing
18 her invitations to paramilitaries to come to Republika Srpska?
19 A. Yes, Mr. Tieger.
20 Q. Now, Mr. Mandic, were you aware that -- aware of whether other
21 Bosnian Serb leaders thought highly of Arkan and wanted to have him come
22 to Republika Srpska or, indeed, wanted to have their pictures taken with
24 A. I'm not aware of anything like that.
25 MR. TIEGER: Let me show you next, then, 65 ter 4508, another
1 video-clip for which we'll have to move to Sanction.
2 [Video-clip played]
3 MR. TIEGER: And, Your Honours, this is a video-clip from
4 October 23, 1995
5 [Video-clip played]
6 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Sir, the Battalion of the
7 Serbian Volunteer Guard is lined up in your honour, sir. Ranks ready for
9 "For the Guard, and for you as the commander of the Guard."
10 "Thank you very much, Mr. President. Gratitude for you being
11 here. This is not the end, it is the beginning. Thank you very much.
12 Mr. President, would you be so kind as to say a few words?"
13 "I'm deeply thankful and I congratulate you, and I hope that we
14 will meet again in peace, and you always will have a place in the heart
15 of those whom you have defended. Thank you."
16 "Mr. President, in the name of the Serbian Volunteer Guard, I
17 wish to say two words to you, which is we are ready if you call us, and
18 that we will be back to defend our eternal homeland, to defend our women
19 and children, to defend Serbian territory and our Orthodox religion.
20 Thank you, Mr. President."
22 "Very well, Mr. President. We are going back now. I want to
23 thank you once again."
25 "Here we are. We will come, and we will stay in contact."
1 MR. TIEGER:
2 Q. Mr. Mandic, first of all, although I think I know the answer to
3 that, were you aware of this particular ceremony?
4 A. No, I wasn't. This is the first time I see it.
5 Q. And does that refresh your recollection about the extent of the
6 support for Arkan or other paramilitaries by members of the Bosnian Serb
8 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger, could you try to identify the persons in
9 the video?
10 MR. TIEGER: Oh, I'm sorry, Your Honour. I should have done
11 that, of course.
12 Q. Mr. Mandic, just for the benefit of the record and the Court, can
13 you indicate whether you recognised any of the persons depicted in the
15 A. In the video, I recognised the president of the Serbian Republic
16 Mr. Radovan Karadzic, and Zeljko Raznatovic, Arkan, the commander of the
17 Volunteer Guard.
18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mandic. And I had asked, before we completed
19 that, whether reviewing or seeing this video refreshed your recollection
20 about the extent of the support for Arkan or other paramilitaries by
21 members of the Bosnian Serb leadership.
22 A. As we have seen from all this so far, Biljana Plavsic was in
23 charge of the inviting of such paramilitary units and of contacts with
24 them. She was the bridge between the Bosnian Serbs, who were waging war
25 in Bosnia
1 my knowledge, of course.
2 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I tender 40548.
3 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President.
4 I don't believe this witness has been able to speak to this.
5 This occurred after he left. He said he was not familiar with the
6 ceremony. All he's done is identified two of the people who are in this,
7 and I don't think this is a proper witness to lay the foundation for this
8 exhibit. Thank you.
9 JUDGE KWON: But is the content not related to the subject-matter
10 of his testimony, Mr. Robinson?
11 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, it is, but I don't believe that makes it
12 admissible. And it's broadly related, but it's not -- he's not able to
13 provide any foundation for the -- for the accuracy of what's depicted.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE KWON: In the view of the Chamber, Mr. Tieger, there's no
16 link that connects the video to the witness, so --
17 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, if I may, I would note that -- I'm
18 sorry that I didn't have an opportunity to speak before the Chamber
19 conferred, but I would note the following with respect to the nexus or
20 the link: The issue raised was invitations to the paramilitary, and
21 interactions with the paramilitary, support of the paramilitary,
22 et cetera. The focus was on Mrs. Plavsic, who was a member of the
23 Presidency with Dr. Karadzic and a close associate with Dr. Karadzic.
24 The excerpt from the 22nd Session, which we read, said:
25 "After the statement of the president of the republic," that's
1 Dr. Karadzic, "i.e. his call to volunteers in all Serbian lands and all
2 other countries, Mrs. Plavsic reacted."
3 It was testimony in the Stanisic/Zupljanin case which we heard
4 concerning Mr. Mandic's reaction to Dr. Karadzic's support for
5 Mrs. Plavsic.
6 This is a document that would come in, in my submission, in every
7 stringent common-law jurisdiction. There's no question about the
8 accuracy of this document. It's a videotape, and I don't think
9 Mr. Robinson or Mr. Karadzic are going to contest that this videotape
10 accurately depicts what's shown in the video. And it's Dr. Karadzic who
11 is depicted on that video. It is a wholly appropriate moment for the
12 admission of this document, certainly more appropriate for a subsequent
13 submission -- or at least as appropriate as a subsequent submission
14 linked to the bulk of the evidence through written submissions in the
15 form of a Bar table or having a witness come in and say, These are
16 videotapes of the accused's link with paramilitary figures. And I would
17 ask the Court to reconsider, in light of that -- and I say again I'm
18 quite sure that this is the case that this is the kind of document that
19 Mr. Robinson and Mr. Karadzic want to see come in in this fashion.
20 They're simply noting their objection to previous rulings in response to
21 their submissions and, I think, trying to find parallels there.
22 Now, as I say, I think there are clear distinguishing factors,
23 but I believe if pressed, Mr. Robinson and Mr. Karadzic would say this is
24 an appropriate point at which to submit this document.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I --
1 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson or Mr. Karadzic, would you like to have
2 a say?
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. I would like to say this:
4 This is a question of principle, but not only of principle, but of the
6 Biljana Plavsic and what the witness spoke about referred to
7 1992. This is 1995. Apart from that, in various instances we offered
8 documents which refer to that phenomenon, and nothing was admitted. Let
9 us have another witness for that. This is not detrimental to the Defence
10 at all, but it is a question of principle. This is out of context. We
11 asked for some documents to be admitted in context which directly refer
12 to the subject-matter at hand, whereas this is totally out of context.
13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
14 Mr. Tieger, there's no issue as to the relevancy or the accuracy
15 of the video-clip, and I agree that that may be a subject of a separate
16 Bar table motion in the later stage. What concerns is the proper control
17 of the conduct of the examination.
18 In order to put something to the witness, there should be some
19 nexus or links. Otherwise, in a trial of this size, there will be no
20 end, in particular, in the face of cross-examination. That's the
21 perspective of the Chamber as at this moment, and I think the Chamber has
22 tried, on several occasions, to make the position of the Chamber
23 understood to the parties.
24 So this will not be admitted, as we indicated, and let's move on,
25 Mr. Tieger.
1 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
2 Q. Mr. Mandic, yesterday we presented a number of documents
3 reflecting a contemporaneous awareness of Arkan's presence in Sarajevo
4 Were you aware that Arkan was working with or in communication with
5 Bosnian Serb political or military authorities in the spring or summer of
7 A. I know that Biljana Plavsic communicated with Zeljko Raznatovic,
8 Arkan, from March 1992. As for others, I don't know.
9 Q. And let me ask you a background question. Who was Radmila?
10 A. No.
11 MR. TIEGER: Let me play, then, for you 65 ter 30666.
12 And, Your Honour, although the previous video-clip was not
13 admitted, perhaps it's useful, nevertheless, to indicate the time code of
14 that exhibit that was played today, and that would be 00:01:00 to
16 [Audio-clip played]
17 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Good day. Staff of Serbian
18 Volunteer Guard."
19 "Good day."
20 "I'm calling you from the Serb MUP in Sarajevo."
21 "From the Serb?"
24 "Tell me, which of our men, and what is the number of Zvornik
25 police station? Who do we have in Zvornik?"
1 "Just a minute."
2 "And who is in control of Zvornik?"
3 MR. TIEGER: Mr. Mandic, I wanted to indicate to you this is an
4 intercepted telephone conversation of the 16th of April, 1992
5 And if we could proceed.
6 [Audio-clip played]
7 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Hello."
9 "Good day."
10 "Serb MUP."
13 "Who is in control of Zvornik, and do we have a police station in
15 "And where are you calling from?"
16 "From Sarajevo
17 "Just a second, just a minute."
18 "Thanks a lot. Hello."
20 "Who is this?"
21 "Radmila. Who is there?"
22 "Arkan speaking."
23 "Arkan, this is Radmila."
24 "Now I will tell you which one."
25 "Aha. "
1 "The one Zoran Kalezic told you about, but you cannot remember,
2 and through Buda Markovic."
3 "Oh, yes, yes."
4 "Listen, man, one of our men fell in Zvornik. He was returning
5 from Belgrade
6 "What did he do?"
7 "Well, he fell, he was caught in Zvornik."
8 "How in heaven's name in Zvornik?"
9 "Well, that's exactly what we're asking ourselves."
10 "But I don't understand. How come he fell in Zvornik?"
11 "Here's what happened. He was working for us ... he was working
12 under Momo Mandic."
14 "... yesterday, he drove the family of Momo's brother, Mladjen,
15 to Belgrade
17 "... and he was on his way back. Mladjo, what's the name of the
18 man -- no, the man in Zvornik who caught him? Arkan, some Sabic."
19 "Who the fuck is Sabic?"
20 "I don't know. Look now, the kid used to drive for Hilmo in the
21 brewery, he used to work for him, and now we do not know what to do.
22 Hilmo, I guess that Sabic had called Hilmo to let him know. Hilmo said:
23 'The kid went to look for nitrogen, let him go,' ammoniac, ammoniac,
24 under the pretence it was for the brewery, you know? However, they are
25 not willing to let him go because the car is ours, the SUP's, the car in
1 which they caught him, a Golf, with registration plates."
2 "They caught him in Zvornik?"
3 "He says he fell in Zvornik:
4 "Well, it is impossible in Zvornik, Zvo..."
5 "My opinion in Zvornik. "
6 "There is nobody, it is certainly not Zvornik."
7 "Where could he fall?"
8 "I do not know, but it is not in Zvornik. The Serbs are in
9 control of Zvornik."
10 "Well, he called and said he was in Zvornik."
11 "He called?"
12 "That Sabic called and said that he was caught in Zvornik."
13 "In Zvornik, no way. Surely not in Zvornik."
14 "Well, tell me, please, on his way to Belgrade, via Zvornik to
16 anything where they are holding, where the road for us is not safe?"
17 "To tell you the truth, I do not know. I do not have a clue."
18 "You do not know?"
19 "I do not know."
20 "We do not know. You know what, at this point in time we still
21 cannot show our cards to them, so they would not realise that they caught
22 a big-shot, you know?"
23 "Yes, yes."
24 "Well, I mean, he's not a big-shot, but he is working for us,
1 "Well, I mean, I don't know, I do not know at all."
2 "And do you have your men in Zvornik who might have some
3 knowledge on where he might be?"
4 "Well, no. I pulled my men out of Zvornik."
5 "Oh, you pulled your men out of Zvornik?"
6 "Well, of course, you can see they are after me. Do you not know
7 what the situation is?"
8 "I know everything, man, there's everything ... they are after
9 us, as well, it seems like the whole world is after us."
10 "I pulled out my men because ..."
11 "The Serbs down there in Zvornik to control."
12 "The Serbs and the army are down there."
13 "Do you know any -- well, it's of no use even if we know now."
14 "I will now call the Crisis Staff down there to see what is
16 "Give it to us, too, we also do not have it down here."
17 "Where are the numbers of the Crisis Staff in Zvornik? Give it
18 to me."
19 "What is the name of the kid?"
22 "Dejan Markovic, Dejan Markovic, come on."
23 "Here you go."
25 "All right."
2 "All right."
4 "704. Any other?"
5 "And 075."
6 "All right."
9 "I will call them immediately."
10 "Please do so. When will you be coming here?"
12 "When will you be coming here?"
13 "Ha, eh, eh."
14 "How are your children?"
16 "All right. Well, come visit us as well."
17 "Well I do not know what all of you want me."
18 "What do you think? Why is that?"
19 "But you should realise the situation, which is ..."
20 "Well, we do, we realise it, but in vain."
22 "In vain, Arkan, in vain. In vain, I don't know, well it is not
23 in vain, look ..."
24 "Wait, where are you now?"
25 "I am in our staff, up there in Vrace, in the school."
2 "This is the only thing we are holding in Sarajevo. Do you have
3 our number?"
4 "I have all of the numbers. I talked to that guy Stanisic,
5 and ..."
6 "Yes, Mico Stanisic, rush him away from Pale. What are they
7 doing up there?"
8 "Fuck them, how should I know what they're doing?"
9 "Why don't they come down from Pale to the city instead of ..."
10 "I have another line, I will talk to them, and you stay on the
12 "All right. Go ahead, Arkan."
13 "So, you are in Sarajevo
14 "We are in Sarajevo
15 "Well, are you holding at least that ... ?"
16 "We are holding that. Look, we are holding ... Arkan, we could
17 hold everything, if only someone gave us the order to go. I don't know
18 what they're waiting for."
19 "Well, that's it."
20 "Well, why wait? Because America is threatening Serbia
21 "That's it."
22 "And we are scared."
23 "That is the thing, they are all chickens."
24 "Chicken, of course. And they let the time go."
25 "That is what we ..."
1 "We lost the time, we should have -- we should have when ..."
2 "Nobody is answering this phone, 584-704."
3 "That is -- no way. You should not have allowed them that, they
4 start slacking."
5 "Hey, wait, wait. I will know. I have this other number ..."
6 "Do that. Nobody is answering the Zvornik Crisis Staff today."
7 "That is it."
8 "Did you hear from Buda?"
11 "Well, it's been a long time since we talked. Tell me one thing,
12 please. Well ..."
13 "Go ahead."
14 "So Sarajevo, you control at least one part of it?"
15 "We control one part, and they do not dare even show their heads
16 in that part. We could control a large part of Sarajevo. Look now, we
17 could push them into their own part of town. But why does not -- why
18 doesn't anyone give us that order?"
19 "Well, Karadzic should do that. Do you have his phone number?"
20 "Up there in Pale?"
21 "Well, yes, of course I do, when they are coming and going and
22 they leave."
23 "Why don't you ask him, he is kind of an official representative
25 "We have just received information they are drawing the map and
1 they are in Pale."
3 "They are in Pale, only Momo, deputy minister is here."
4 "Yes, yes. And what can he do? He can do nothing."
5 "Well, he cannot do a thing until they have issued an order. The
6 army is here, everything is here, but it's in vain."
7 "Well, the army also escaped. They were threatened with planes,
8 and they ran away."
11 "Where are they are, here?"
12 "Well, the army threatened them, I mean the Americans threatened
14 "The Americans?"
15 "Well, yes."
16 "That inform -- well, all right, these people certainly know
18 "Fuck them all."
19 "Well, they should send it. Why did they not send it to Croatia
20 to Zagreb
22 "Well, America
23 "There is no choice. You can see that the world public is
24 accusing us of being the aggressor."
25 "Yes, I would not really be scared."
1 "Well, we are not afraid. We can only die once, not 100 times."
2 "Only once, yes ... I would not pay much ..."
3 "None of us gives a fuck, to be honest."
4 "Right, I would not."
5 "That is why we have to be careful. You see that 17.000 children
6 came here from Sarajevo
7 "And now what happens, we wait; right? And let them have it."
8 "Yesterday some kid, an ambassador was here ..."
9 "Well, to hell with her."
10 "She says she is the ambassador of children, she drove ..."
11 "She is the ambassador of Alija's children."
12 "No, no, ours, our children."
13 "Ah, our children?"
14 "Yes, ours. Her name is Vidakovic."
16 "Yes. Her mother and father are in France."
17 "That is all theirs, that is all a part of their politics. I do
18 not believe a thing. Credit to them for working for children, but ..."
19 "They moved us out. Fuck them."
21 "Excuse me for expressing myself this way, but that is how things
23 "You just ..."
24 "This other number is busy all the time."
25 "685; right?"
1 "Yes, yes, and there it is ringing, but nobody is answering. We
2 will try again. Listen."
3 "Go ahead."
4 "Come on, call in some time, or ... you understand."
5 "This same number?"
7 "Okay, I will call you again."
10 MR. TIEGER:
11 Q. First, Mr. Mandic, did you recognise any of the voices involved
12 in that conversation?
13 A. I did not recognise a single voice. I don't have any of these
15 Q. The intercept indicates it's a conversation between
16 Radmila Kalaba and Zeljko Raznatovic, aka Arkan. I asked you before if
17 you knew who Radmila was. Can you tell us anything about Radmila, a
18 Radmila who was connected with the Serbian MUP in Sarajevo?
19 A. I don't know who Radmila Kalaba is. She's probably some
20 administrator, a person working in the Serb police. I don't know. I
21 cannot remember that name, the first or the last name. It's one of the
22 desk officers there, probably. Now, whether that person worked in the
23 police then or before that, I'm just sure that before the war that person
24 did not work for the police, and I don't know the name of Radmila Kalaba
25 at all.
1 Q. Well, let's set aside the last name for a moment. Did you know
2 the name of a woman named Radmila who worked for you and was involved on
3 at least more than one occasion in calling persons on your behalf to make
4 contact with them on the telephone?
5 A. My secretary was Radmila Radojcic before the war in the joint
6 MUP, and for a while she was with me in Vraca in the Ministry of Justice.
7 However, this is not that person. This was Radmila Radojcic. Obviously,
8 it's not this same person, Radmila Kalaba. It was a completely different
9 person who worked with me or was my secretary, rather, Radmila Radojcic.
10 I think that right now she works in the police centre in Bijeljina.
11 Before the war and during the war, she worked for the Ministry of
12 Justice, and she was my secretary. This Kalaba, I don't know who she is.
13 Q. As we see from this conversation, this Radmila is calling in
14 connection with a person who was thought to have been -- to have fallen
15 or been taken captive in Zvornik, someone who was working under
16 Momo Mandic, she says, and who drove the family of Momo's brother,
17 Mladen, to Belgrade
18 A. Mr. Tieger, I'm aware of this particular event. I first listened
19 to this conversation during the proofing with Ms. Korner, the Prosecutor
20 here. I first heard it two or three months ago. This Dejan Markovic was
21 a driver in the brewery. Hilmo Selimovic was the director, and he was
22 assistant minister in the joint Ministry of the Police. He was my
23 friend, a local Sarajevo
24 time, drove my brother's family to Belgrade. My brother was also a
25 policeman. He was a teacher at the Police School
1 some point by an armed Muslim group, and this Kalaba probably knew what
2 telephone -- knew various telephone numbers and had contact with
3 Zeljko Raznatovic, Arkan. Hilmo Selimovic helped me a great deal, at my
4 insistence, and he found this young man somewhere, I don't know, in some
5 town, and there was this exchange. And I know that this young man was
6 saved thanks to Hilmo Selimovic and his acquaintances who had arrested
7 this young man who was about 20 at the time.
8 As for this conversation, I first heard it when I was being
9 proofed by Ms. Korner, and this Radmila certainly did not work for the
10 police before.
11 Q. And do you recall whether she advised you of the information she
12 had gathered, in connection with that incident, from Arkan?
13 A. Mr. Tieger, I don't know who Radmila is, Radmila Kalaba.
14 Q. Were you aware of the circumstances in Zvornik, as related in
15 this intercept, at that time?
16 A. I only know what I know from this conversation. I did not know
17 what was happening in Zvornik. Well, you see from the conversation,
18 itself, that this woman does not know who is in Zvornik and what is going
19 on there, and that she is not aware of the facts involved. I really
20 don't know.
21 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I want to tender this intercept.
22 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. We would object to it, first
23 of all, on relevance grounds. I'm not sure, really, how it relates to
24 the case against Dr. Karadzic. Secondly, to the extent that the witness
25 has been able to speak to the document, it's only about a tangential
1 issue concerning his brother's transportation and not about anything that
2 is really relevant to the case, so I don't believe it's admissible. If
3 for any reason you did think it was admissible, I think it would only be
4 able to be marked for identification at this point, since it's not a
5 conversation that the witness can authenticate. Thank you.
6 JUDGE KWON: Do you like to reply, Mr. Tieger?
7 MR. TIEGER: Well, I don't know if the Court requires me to reply
8 with reference to the relevance. This -- I hardly know where to start.
9 This is contact by the Serbian MUP, according to the intercept,
10 to determine what's happening in Zvornik. Arkan has -- relates his
11 relationship with the Serbian authorities in Zvornik and leaving matters
12 in their hands. There's a question of when he might come. The
13 connection between -- the linkage between Dr. Karadzic and the Serbian
14 MUP has been made clear on a number of occasions, in a number of ways. I
15 just tried to tender a document related to Dr. Karadzic's interaction
16 with Arkan, himself.
17 I could go on and on, but I don't think that's the issue. As far
18 as MFI
19 the participants in the intercept, but has, instead, talked to some
20 extent about some of what's related in the content of that discussion.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Although the witness was not able to identify
23 the voices in the intercept, the witness's name was referred to in this
24 intercept and the witness confirmed the event referred to in the
25 intercept. So, as such, we'll mark it for identification.
1 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI
2 MR. TIEGER:
3 Q. Mr. Mandic, on Thursday, I believe it was, you asked -- you
4 referred to an intercept in your intercept binder, involving you and
5 Mr. Prstojevic, and asked if that could be played. In fact, you asked
6 twice to hear that intercept. Do you recall that?
7 A. Yes, yes, when I asked him to return this judge, a Muslim, to his
8 job, because he had dismissed him.
9 Q. Well, in fact, Mr. Mandic, you indicated, when you were referring
10 to this intercept, that it was about the complete blockade of the
11 municipality and about Judge Musanovic, but, in fact, the discussion was
12 broader than that. It was about ethnic cleansing of Ilidza; correct?
13 A. I don't know. Could I have this other part? Or, actually, could
14 I have a look at the binder, and then I can look it up in the binder.
15 Q. You can do both. We'll play the intercept, and you can have the
16 binder with you at the same time.
17 A. Well, let's play the intercept, then, if possible, but the entire
19 MR. TIEGER: And that's at tab 17 of your binder, Mr. Mandic.
20 Your Honours, that's 65 ter 30829. And, again, we have to move
21 to Sanction.
22 [Audio-clip played]
23 JUDGE KWON: Can we start again? Is Sanction on?
24 [Audio-clip played]
25 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Good afternoon."
1 "Good afternoon."
2 "Serb Ministry of Justice. May I get through to Mr. Prstojevic
3 through this number, please?"
4 "Who wants to speak to him?"
5 "The minister."
6 "The minister?"
7 "Momcilo Mandic, the minister of justice."
8 "Aha, Momcilo Mandic, one moment, please."
9 "Thank you."
12 "Mr. Prstojevic?"
14 "One moment, please."
17 "Good afternoon."
18 "Good fortune to you, Prstojevic."
19 "How are you?"
20 "Very well, and how are you?"
21 "Very well. Who am I talking to?"
22 "It's Momo Mandic."
23 "Momo Mandic, the Minister of Justice."
24 "Yes, that's right. That's right."
25 "No minister has a more beautiful name?"
1 "That's right."
2 "Because there is nothing more beautiful than justice, is there?"
3 "That's right. We just need to achieve it."
4 "A ..."
5 "Listen, Prstojevic, listen to me, do you have any problems in
6 Ilidza? Is anyone bothering you? Are they attacking you?"
7 "No, no one is bothering me."
8 "You're not letting them, are you?"
9 "That's right. Whoever bothers me, I get hold of a weapon and
10 start shooting. When the Turks bother me and my army, I get hold of
11 weapons and defend ..."
12 "Are you from Herzegovina
13 "Well, not really. I'm an Orthodox Herzegovinian."
14 "A Herzegovinian, is it?"
15 "Well, Kalinovik is my municipality."
16 "Aha. I have two questions for you."
18 "It has come to our attention and that of the government that you
19 are issuing ultimatums to some Turks; evicting people from certain
20 settlements and people respond badly to it. They are abusing this, those
21 Muslims and the media and so on."
23 "Well, please do not do anything like it. Consult with Djeric
24 first and those people up there, because this is very bad publicity for
25 us and for everyone. You have to be more flexible there and not touch
1 those Muslims who are willing to listen, who are loyal. We cannot
2 ethnically cleanse Ilidza or any other place. At least that is the
3 attitude of the government and political leadership and all. It has
4 already reached the top how in some settlement you gave them 24 hours to
5 move out and they ... well, no, not the safety ... what was it? What did
6 you say? You are not ... you are not responsible for their safety or
7 something like that."
8 "Well, yes, but where did I say this?"
9 "Well, people you have to ..."
10 "I know, but we did not say that, not in public. That is not our
12 "I know, I know what it should be and how we should operate and
13 so ..."
14 "Yes, but we do not say that in public, nor do we write it."
15 "Please, in that context, you know what is necessary. You were
16 probably up there during the talks and that and how it should be done,
17 and those Muslims who said that about us, we have to ... it's some sort
18 of protection, mother-fuckers, as long as they listen, behave. In that
19 context, Fadil Musanovic is a judge. But, look, talk to him. If he has
20 not already fled, place him to work for us, so that we can say that we
21 employ everyone, Muslims, Croats, and Serbs, regardless of ethnicity, as
22 long as they are loyal to the Serb state. So have a look, please. Place
23 two or three Muslims somewhere, mother-fuckers, let ..."
24 "You know what, Momo?"
1 "Even with the best of intentions, with all the Muslims from
2 Ilidza have already done, and what they are doing, let's say, as long as
3 there is a blockade of the Serbs in Hrasnica, Sokolovic Kolonija, it's
4 been a month since no Serb has come out."
5 "I know. My sister and my father are there."
6 "No one has come out of there, despite the fact that we allow it.
7 Let them come out now. Let them have 5.000 Muslims from there. Let them
8 release as many Serbs. We are not in a position to let someone work at
9 the moment. Our Misdemeanor Court did not receive a single report. No
10 one submitted any."
11 "Well, push Tomo Kovac and the police. Make them work. They are
12 looting there, they're disrupting public peace and order. You are the
13 government there, so force these people to work. Make them arrest
14 people. Lots of things are going on. I don't mean in Ilidza,
15 specifically, but across this republic of ours. There are gangs,
16 thieves, war profiteers, so let the police do their job. Force them,
17 hold a meeting with them. If the Court is operational, it is supposed to
18 work. Let there believe report, let them work."
20 "Look, I think it would be good politically. I don't want to
21 insist on it. It's not up to me. Ilidza is not mine. It was not,
22 everything, in the media and this and that, just like they take Pejanovic
23 or Kecmanovic or anyone of ours and then the entire world knows about it.
24 I think that we have to learn certain things even from these Muslims."
1 "For the general public and all, I mean, if there is not
2 somewhere, there are others, and other work positions, and to say, to
3 publish that, put it on television, 'Srna,' and then Belgrade and so on,
4 not only Ilidza but other areas also look into that."
5 "Tell me, tell me, when are you ..."
6 "I'm in Kula all the time, or rather in Lukavica."
7 "All right, I'll stop by as soon as I have the chance ..."
8 "Please do come ..."
9 "... to talk over coffee and ..."
10 "Well, yes, okay, then, agreed."
11 " ... the Serb municipality of Ilidza, you see. Because I see
12 that they have some, let's say, even territorial differences, they are
13 appear in the organisation of judicial system and so on."
14 "All right, no problems. That is normal, we will sit down and
15 discuss. There are no problems, whenever you come, stop by and we will
17 "I will stop by."
18 "Agreed. But, please, have a look with your associates, with
19 Tomo Kovac, to work on that, for people to be punished, because these
20 criminals and profiteers are extremely active."
21 "That's right, but you see, only the other day we received ..."
22 "All right, all right, now you need to get involved and press
23 Kovac to work."
24 "Yes, 'Official Gazette' number 6. We only received it the day
25 before yesterday."
1 "Yes, yes."
2 "Only now we have the legal basis we can start with work."
3 "Excellent, excellent. Go on. Let that be adopted for people to
4 see that Serbs do not ... that they do not drink and that they are not
5 firing cannon, but that we work, that we are normal people and that we
6 want a legal state protecting all of our inhabitants and all the rest."
7 "All right, Momo."
8 "Talk to you later."
9 "All right, then."
11 MR. TIEGER:
12 Q. First, Mr. Mandic, do you recognise the participants in that
14 A. It is I and Prstojevic, Nedjeljko.
15 Q. You asked to have that played. Does hearing it now refresh your
16 recollection that it concerned information you had that Prstojevic had
17 commenced or was engaged in ethnic cleansing in Ilidza?
18 A. It reached the prime minister, Mr. Djeric, up there at the
19 government, and he informed me about this. And, of course, he said that
20 I should carefully talk to Mr. Prstojevic, and that he should not block
21 normal life in Ilidza, and that he should not dismiss people just because
22 they're Muslims.
23 Mr. Tieger, for example, Prstojevic is saying that specifically
24 here, in Hrasnica there were a certain number of Serbs who had lived
25 there, and they were detained in the school or the health centre in
1 Hrasnica. Now, both of them were trying to see how they -- since they
2 could keep detained Serbs in Hrasnica, then we could do the same thing in
3 Ilidza. I was trying to explain that to him, that that was wrong, and
4 the Serb state could not be created that way, and that people should not
5 be blocked or detained in that way, or dismissed from their jobs, just
6 because they're of a different ethnicity.
7 Q. Well, Mr. Mandic, you seem to be focusing on blocking or
8 dismissing, but you direct Mr. Prstojevic's attention in this intercept
9 to evicting people. And, in fact, that was the information you had from
10 Tomo Kovac, among others; correct?
11 A. At that moment, no, I didn't have it. I had information from
12 Mr. Djeric that Prstojevic had told the Muslims in a part of the Ilidza
13 settlement that he would not guarantee -- could not guarantee their
14 security there if they remained, which was very bad both for the Serbian
15 Republic, and for the politics pursued by the Serbian people, and for
16 everybody. And we tried to persuade Prstojevic not to do that, that he
17 could not seek to conduct ethnic cleansing in such a way or to intimidate
18 others, non-Serbs, in that way.
19 Q. And you stressed to Mr. Prstojevic the detrimental public
20 relations impact of such efforts; correct?
21 A. I tried to persuade him, Mr. Tieger, to impress it upon him that
22 this was not to be done, it is not the done thing. I talked about the
23 public -- the politics of the Serbian government, of the Serbian
24 leadership, who kept repeating that one could not aspire after an
25 ethnically-clean state in the space of Europe or the former
1 Bosnia-Herzegovina. On Thursday, we spoke about specific individuals,
2 that man from the Krajina, I cannot remember his name right now, and
3 about Prstojevic, who were right-wingers, who were chauvinists,
4 nationalists, which is a phenomenon in any nation. Yes, the man's name
5 is Vojo Kupresanin.
6 Q. And as far as you could tell and during that conversation,
7 Mr. Prstojevic understood the public relations aspect and assured you
8 that he hadn't done so publicly; correct? In fact, he was at pains to
9 make the point that he hadn't said that in public?
10 A. No, Mr. Tieger. He didn't understand it to be for the sake of
11 the public. He asked me, Who told you that? Where was this said, where
12 was this heard? Who could have conveyed his positions to the government?
13 There was no reference to the public, in the sense of the mass media, but
14 this was said in front of another person who had relayed his position to
15 the government, and, therefore, we ask him not to do what he was doing
16 and what he was intending to do.
17 There is another intercept of my conversation with Tomo Kovac,
18 when I proposed to Tomo to try and persuade this Prstojevic not to do
19 some things which he was stubbornly carrying out. I even proposed that
20 if he could not do anything else, that he kill him. Of course, I wasn't
21 being serious, but what I meant was that he should try, in every
22 conceivable way, to try and persuade that person not to do that, what he
23 was doing.
24 Q. In light of the information that you had, was there any effort
25 made by you or anyone else to relieve Mr. Prstojevic of his
2 A. In precisely this conversation, I explained to Prstojevic that it
3 wasn't mine, as the minister of justice, to regulate the municipal
4 administration. He could have only been dismissed from work by the local
5 government, the local municipal president, the municipal administration.
6 Possibly, the government could have introduced provisional measures and
7 installed a caretaker municipal government, disbanding the former one,
8 and thereby that could have been achieved.
9 Q. And I assume the answer to this question flows from the first,
10 but was there any effort made to initiate proceedings or to otherwise
11 punish Mr. Prstojevic for what he had done or attempted to do?
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have an objection.
13 JUDGE KWON: On what ground, Mr. Karadzic?
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Distinguished Mr. Tieger says that
15 he attempted to do something, but this was only said somewhere. We don't
16 know for sure whether something was really done. We had a propaganda
17 from the Muslim mass media that that was done, but Prstojevic, himself,
18 denied having done it.
19 JUDGE KWON: No, it's not a proper intervention, Mr. Karadzic.
20 You can clarify, if necessary, during your cross-examination.
21 Mr. Mandic, can you answer the question?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Would you be so kind as to repeat
23 the question, Mr. Tieger?
24 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Mr. Mandic.
25 Q. Was there any effort, to your knowledge, made to initiate
1 proceedings or to otherwise punish Mr. Prstojevic for what he had done or
2 attempted to do?
3 A. Mr. Tieger, I received from Mr. Djeric information and an order
4 to talk to Prstojevic and to point out to him that if he was doing those
5 things, that he cannot do them. I don't know whether he was punished, I
6 mean Prstojevic, in any way. He was a deputy to the Assembly and had
7 such immunity, and he also was an official in the municipality. Whether
8 he was punished, I don't know. I know that he was called to Pale after
9 some time for a conversation to be conducted with him precisely in
10 connection with those problems, but what happened after that, I don't
12 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Mandic, I should stand corrected if I'm wrong,
13 but Mr. Prstojevic was at the time the president of Serb municipality of
14 Ilidza as well as an MP of the Serbian Assembly?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is right, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE KWON: Can it be said that he, Mr. Prstojevic, as such, is
17 a subordinate to you, you in the wider sense, as government?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. He was an MP, Prstojevic, and
19 he enjoyed immunity, Your Honour. The Executive Branch didn't have any
20 powers vis-a-vis him until his immunity was waived by the municipality
21 or, rather, by the Legislative Commission of the Serbian People, and, as
22 such, he did not fall under the powers of the Executive Branch of
23 government. This is a process whereby a deputy's immunity is waived in
24 the National Assembly, and once that has been done by the Assembly, any
25 proceedings can be instituted against him. Up to that point, as an MP
1 enjoying immunity, like all the other MPs, and the president of the
2 Assembly and the president of the state, he was immune to any such
4 JUDGE KWON: However, you can say that he had immunity as to what
5 he was doing in the capacity of the deputy of the Assembly, but I don't
6 believe that he enjoyed such privilege in the capacity of the president
7 of the municipality.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, he was concurrently
9 an MP and the president of the municipality. At the same time, he held
10 two offices. As an MP, he had been elected by the local people or by the
11 deputies to the office of president of Ilidza municipality. By his very
12 election to the office of president, his election to the office of
13 president did not mean that his term of office, his mandate as a deputy,
14 had seized.
15 And in this conversation, I told him, It is not mine to order
16 anything to you, but I am asking you, do not do that, because it is not
17 good for the Serbian people, it is not in the interests of the Serbian
18 people and its government.
19 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger, this intercept was dated in June
20 sometime, 2nd of June, 1992?
21 MR. TIEGER: That's correct, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Mandic, how what the president of the
23 municipality appointed at that time? Was he elected or appointed by
24 somebody? How was the president of the municipality appointed?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The MPs of the local Parliament
1 elected the president of the Assembly, and the local parliamentarians
2 elected him as the president of Ilidza municipality, the parliamentarians
3 from the area.
4 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
5 Mr. Tieger.
6 MR. TIEGER:
7 Q. Just one point of clarification, Mr. Mandic. My recollection is
8 there was a discussion about Mr. Prstojevic during the discussion of the
9 Krajisnik case, during which you indicated that he was a deputy, and that
10 was later clarified in the course of your examination, that he was not.
11 And that can be checked, of course, but that's my recollection, that you
12 indicated that he wasn't a deputy. And, of course, we can check the
13 records one way or another.
14 A. Please do check, Mr. Tieger I believe that he was among the 83
15 MPs of the 1st Serbian Assembly. I'm convinced of it. If I am wrong, I
16 will be corrected, but I'm sure that he was an MP and that he came to
17 Assembly sessions and spoke at Assembly sessions, as far as I can recall.
18 In fact, I'm certain of it.
19 Q. I'm not disputing that he spoke at Assembly sessions. In fact,
20 we looked, during the course of your testimony here, at some comments by
21 Mr. Prstojevic at the 17th Assembly Session. But it's true, is it not,
22 that others, beyond members of Parliament or deputies, spoke at the
23 Assembly sessions, including ministerial officials, members of the
24 Presidency, presidents of municipalities, and so on; correct?
25 A. Mr. Tieger, in the parliamentary system, Assembly sessions are
1 attended by the MPs, by the members of the government, and by the
2 Presidency members, and at invitation, some other persons who the
3 president of the Assembly deems should be present and contribute to the
4 discussion. As Prstojevic was there every single time, I am convinced
5 that he, indeed, was an MP, because there was no other grounds for him to
6 be there. After all, find the list of the 83 members of Parliament,
7 then, and there you will see.
8 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I tender this intercept.
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes, that will be admitted.
10 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1110, Your Honours.
11 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President. I've concluded.
12 Thank you, Mr. Mandic.
13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
14 Mr. Tieger, one housekeeping matter.
15 You are minded to tender all those exhibits designated as
16 associated exhibits?
17 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber had the opportunity to go through those
19 items, and there are certain items, mainly intercepts, which are, in the
20 view of the Chamber, not forming an indispensable or inseparable part of
21 the witness transcript. So I will give you the numbers. Those are --
22 there are several: 20992, 30170, 30341, 30651, 30656, 30695, 30705,
23 30738, 30798, 30813, and 30833. Those intercepts were not played during
24 the testimony of Mr. Mandic. Give me a minute. Those were simply
25 admitted based upon the agreement of the parties, and the witness did not
1 testify to this in the courtroom. And what the witness did was he
2 authenticated a number of intercepts during his interview with the
3 Prosecution. So in the Chamber's view, it does not form an indispensable
4 or inseparable part of the transcript, so if you are minded to tender
5 them separately, you have to deal with them item by item.
6 I note the time. The Chamber should conclude today's hearing at
7 quarter to 2:00
8 If you are minded, I would allow to go through with these items.
9 Otherwise, Mr. Karadzic will begin his cross-examination.
10 Twenty minutes.
11 --- Recess taken at 10.17 a.m.
12 --- On resuming at 10.40 a.m.
13 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger, what I forgot to tell you is that the
14 others will be admitted. Yes.
15 MR. TIEGER: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
16 In the interests of time, I'd like to direct the witness's
17 attention to only one of the proposed exhibits that the Court mentioned.
18 That's 20992.
19 Q. Mr. Mandic, I may have devised or identified a way to expedite or
20 speed up this process. I want to show you a particular document that was
21 created during the course of the Krajisnik case. It will be up on screen
22 in a moment.
23 And if we could also show the witness the preceding page.
24 Mr. Mandic, although this is in English, I know on the subsequent
25 page you'll be able to identify the names in Latin script, but I thought
1 it helpful to read to you this portion which indicates:
2 "On October 1st, 2004
3 intercepted telephone conversations and identified voices of the
4 participants as indicated below."
5 And then if we could move to the next page.
6 JUDGE KWON: In the e-court, this is page 1. The previous one is
7 page 2.
8 MR. TIEGER:
9 Q. And this indicates a number of intercepted telephone
10 conversations, Mr. Mandic, including some of which you had an opportunity
11 to listen to during the course of your testimony over the last few days.
12 The headings are: The date of the conversation, the numbers that
13 they're identified by in both B/C/S and English, the voices which were
14 ID'd, and then, finally, the last heading is the interview transcript
15 reference, that is, the portion of the interview in which you
16 participated during which you identified those intercepts, according to
18 So I simply wanted to confirm with you that you participated in a
19 process, prior to your testimony in the Krajisnik case, during which you
20 listened to intercepted telephone conversations and identified the
22 A. Yes, Mr. Tieger.
23 MR. TIEGER: Thank you.
24 Your Honour, I would tender this document, and we will be in a
25 position, therefore, I hope, to use it to the extent that some of these
1 conversations may play a role in a subsequent submission following the
2 appearance of a further submission related to the intercepts.
3 JUDGE KWON: So you're minded to tender only this document?
4 MR. TIEGER: Correct.
5 JUDGE KWON: I haven't asked Mr. Karadzic or Mr. Robinson as to
6 the other associated exhibit as well as this one.
7 Mr. Robinson.
8 MR. ROBINSON: Yes. No objection.
9 JUDGE KWON: They will be admitted, and the exhibit number will
10 be circulated to the parties by the Registrar in due course.
11 Very well, Mr. Tieger.
12 Mr. Karadzic, please, let's begin your cross-examination.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
15 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Minister.
16 A. Good morning, Mr. President.
17 Q. With the permission of the Court, I would like to express my
18 compassion to you because of all the suffering you underwent on account
19 of me, as did my family and friends, and many other persons who I don't
20 even know, but they did suffer on my account. So please accept my
21 apology because of what others did to you.
22 A. I accept that with pleasure.
23 Q. In the beginning, on transcript page 404 -- or, rather, 4404, you
24 say, on line 15:
25 [In English] "In 2003, I was suspected of aiding and abetting and
1 hiding Dr. Karadzic. I spent five months because of that in a solitary
2 confinement cell in Belgrade
4 [Interpretation] That's what you said; isn't that right?
5 A. Correct, Mr. President. No one was allowed to visit me, except
6 for investigators from The Hague Tribunal, who came to the district
7 prison in Bacvanska Street. They took me to separate rooms and they
8 asked me about your health, your place of residence, who was financing
9 you, and everything else.
10 Q. Thank you. Further on, on page 4405, you said:
11 [In English] " ... that I was kidnapped as a citizen of
14 [Interpretation] Further on, same page:
15 [In English] "These operatives, the investigators, told me that I
16 would be taken to court in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and that the
17 prosecutor of the BiH Court
18 that I would be sentenced to a prison term of eight years. When I said
19 that they had no grounds for filing a lawsuit against me, they said that
20 they would find grounds and that wasn't important."
21 [Interpretation] That's what these investigators of the OTP said
22 to you; right?
23 A. Mr. President, they kept all of their promises. As a citizen of
24 the state of Montenegro
25 whatsoever, extradition proceedings, nothing. I was kidnapped from my
1 apartment and taken across the border. So I was met by Mr. Rattel at the
2 border. He is one of the associates of The Hague OTP. Then I was at the
3 Central Prison. Then I was taken to the detention unit of the BH Court
4 In the evening, as confirmed by the president of that Court, I
5 was taken out by investigators, or, rather, operatives of the OTP from
6 The Hague
7 the Serb police. Again, they asked me about you, your health, your
8 residence, everything else. And they said to me then that if I
9 co-operate, that I would be back home very soon; if not, they would find
10 some kind of indictment to issue against me. They would convict me, they
11 would issue an indictment for war crimes. And I said, You have no
12 grounds for any of that.
13 I was here as a suspect several times. I think that Mr. Tieger
14 was in charge of that investigation. My file was archived as one where
15 there were no grounds to prosecute.
16 In the evening, they kept all their promises.
17 Privredna Banka is a bank that I own, and there was this case in
18 that connection. Allegedly, that bank gave credit to some entities that
19 were financing you.
20 I was also indicted -- actually, I think that I'm the only man
21 who was officially indicted for aiding and abetting suspects and accused
22 persons by The Hague
23 I was freed of all charges because Toby Robinson gave false
24 testimony. She appeared as an expert witness. I was charged because of
25 these credits. Once I had served two-thirds of my sentence, it was
1 established that that was nonexistent, that all of this had been stage
2 managed. However, you know, Mr. President, that in Bosnia-Herzegovina US
3 citizens have immunity and they cannot be prosecuted, not even for
4 perjury. Ms. Robinson actually took some money from my bank as well, and
5 she went to Dallas, Texas
6 There is another thing I have to say. The then high
7 representative of the European Union for Bosnia and Herzegovina
8 Mr. Schwarz-Schilling on a Friday, extended Toby Robinson's term as
9 provisional manager of my bank for an indefinite period of time.
10 Sreten Jovic, who was then chief of police at the level of BH, and
11 Sinisa Karan [phoen], brought documentation concerning all the mis-doings
12 of that witness. I assume that Mr. Schwarz-Schilling first consulted
14 co-operation, and she went back to the United States in an express
16 These are the people who detained me, turned me into a
17 controversial businessman, whatever else, all of that because the
18 suspicion was that I was helping you hide and that I was taking care of
19 you and your health.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 May I be allowed --
22 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Mandic, I understand those are all important to
23 you, but the accused has only a limited time, so could you be brief in
24 your answers.
25 And both of you are speaking the same language, so I would like
1 you to bear in mind to put a pause between the question and answers.
2 Mr. Karadzic.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I do apologise.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 May I be allowed to put to the Trial Chamber what kind of
6 lawlessness we can live in? It is not only the high representative there
7 who is authorised to do whatever --
8 JUDGE KWON: Come to your relevant question.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I just wanted to say that they put
10 it well. If you don't do anything, you are given an eight-year term, and
11 if you did something, then you get ten years in prison.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Did you manage to complain to Mr. Tieger in any way? Wasn't he
14 in charge of investigations in that case?
15 A. No. As far as Sarajevo
16 I did not have any contact with him. However, there were investigators
17 from The Hague Tribunal there, or, rather -- yes, the OTP.
18 Q. Thank you. Now I'm going to try to put questions that will allow
19 for brief yes-or-no answers, for a while, at least.
20 In the Krajisnik case, did you have similar pressure exerted
21 against you, and did you testify under such pressure; yes or no?
22 A. Mr. President, at the time, I was a suspect, I was a war crimes
23 suspect. And, of course, Mr. Tieger's associates, Milford, I think the
24 person's name was, and there were two of them, they kept notifying me of
25 that, that I am a suspect, that I will probably be indicted, that I
1 should watch what I'm saying. However, Mr. Tieger did his job, he was
2 professional, he was fair, but he had these associates who were very
3 aggressive and who kept putting it to me that I would probably be accused
4 here. That was in 2004, after I had left solitary confinement in
6 Q. Thank you. You were freed of all charges in the Bosnian Court
7 for war crimes?
8 A. Everything happened in accordance with the promises the
9 investigators gave me. They said that I would be indicted, but that I
10 would not be convicted. And that's what happened. I think that I was
11 also charged with crimes against humanity and, yes, it was a final
13 Q. We have to take these little breaks, we have to make these little
15 Now, I want to put something else to you, in addition to that
16 pressure under which you testified in the Krajisnik case. We have
17 admitted that transcript.
18 On the 15th of December, 2004, Mr. Stewart said:
19 [In English] "We have examined important witnesses, in our
20 submission, in other [indiscernible]. We have done our best not to make
21 that too obvious."
22 [Interpretation] You testified on the 23rd of November, up until
23 the 10th of December, 2004. Obviously, that has to do with you as well.
24 Isn't that right?
25 A. As far as I remember, I testified at that time. As for these
1 details, Mr. President, I really cannot recall.
2 Q. Thank you. Further on, on the 28th of February, 2005,
3 Ms. Lucas [phoen] said:
4 [In English] "With witnesses that go beyond the crime base into
5 the critical linkage area, and this is the area, of course, in which the
6 agreed-facts process broke down, the fact that we have not had a
7 comprehensive reading and analysis of the relevant and potentially
8 relevant documents means that our cross-examination in the Prosecution
9 case is hampered."
10 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we briefly move into closed
13 JUDGE KWON: Shall I hear you before we go into private session,
14 Mr. Tieger?
15 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour.
16 I mean, the accused is inquiring about statements made by counsel
17 after the appearance of this witness. This will call for -- not only is
18 it now calling for various forms of speculation, but its relevance to
19 this witness's testimony has not been made out, and I would object.
20 JUDGE MORRISON: Dr. Karadzic, Mr. Tieger's observations, in my
21 judgement, are absolutely accurate. Mr. Mandic may have issues that he
22 wishes to air, but your time is limited and these are not matters that go
23 to the indictment against you.
24 And then the question for the witness: Mr. Mandic, are you
25 saying that your testimony in Krajisnik was inaccurate?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. What I knew and
2 what I said was correct in the Krajisnik case. It was the truth. That
3 was in 2004. I think it was the second half of 2004.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I should like to
5 make a nexus with the last testimony of Mr. Mandic's which is obviously
6 not associated with these pressures brought to bear upon him in the
7 Krajisnik case. So I'm going beyond those pressures and the context in
8 the Krajisnik case, because Mr. Mandic was not all that precise always
9 then. That is as far as that is concerned. If you do not want to hear
10 what Steward said in closed session in the Krajisnik case, that is okay,
11 but please do tell me whether that is the case.
12 JUDGE KWON: We'll hear the case.
13 We'll go into private session, and let's see what the question
15 [Private session]
6 [Open session]
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we are now in open session.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Mr. Mandic, did you notice any difference in cross-examinations
10 in the Stanisic and Zupljanin case relative to the cross-examination in
11 the Krajisnik case?
12 A. Could you please be more specific?
13 Q. In view of the fact that you were no longer under duress and that
14 this Defence was more prepared than that of Krajisnik, did you notice
15 that it was more fluent and more accurate?
16 JUDGE MORRISON: Dr. Karadzic, I'm sorry. That calls for --
17 first of all, it's irrelevant to the issues that this witness has to deal
18 with in respect of you. Secondly, it calls for speculation. Thirdly, if
19 it was allowed, it would open up such an issue that would have to be the
20 subject of satellite litigation, that we would be wasting weeks, if not
21 months. So please concentrate on those matters which are relevant to the
22 indictment against you.
23 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger, was that the subject you wanted to
24 address us?
25 MR. TIEGER: Yes, thank you.
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Let's conclude with this: Would you add something to your
3 testimony or change anything to your testimony in the Stanisic/Zupljanin
5 A. No, Mr. President, I fully stand by my assertions in the Stanisic
6 and Zupljanin case.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 In view of the fact that this is a Court witness, the Defence
9 proposes that this reply be also tendered under 92 ter, and this was by
10 way of introduction.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, sorry, the interpreter is unable to keep
12 up. Could the --
13 JUDGE KWON: The interpreters were not able to follow you in
14 terms of numbers. Do you mean to tender the evidence of Mr. Mandic in
15 the case of Zupljanin and Stanisic?
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. These are D numbers, 1D --
17 under 1D that are being offered by the Defence.
18 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger.
19 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, as a general proposition, we, of
20 course, have no objection to the use of 92 ter when it's properly
21 perfected. I have to note here, however, that one of the elements of a
22 92 ter submission is the review of the statement that is being tendered,
23 and that has not taken place yet. Indeed, I'd note that in the context
24 of the 92 ter submission in Stanisic/Zupljanin, the Prosecution was
25 required to translate the entirety of the transcript. So, again, I don't
1 have objections, in principle, to the use of 92 ter by the other party,
2 clearly, but I think it's important to note that the elements of 92 ter
3 haven't been fulfilled here.
4 JUDGE KWON: Excuse me. Was the Prosecution required to
5 translate the entirety of the transcript, I mean, in this case?
6 MR. TIEGER: Of the Krajisnik testimony, because the witness --
7 it wasn't clear whether the witness had listened to the entirety of the
8 transcript, so he was sent back with the -- and the English transcript in
9 that case was translated and provided to him for review.
10 JUDGE KWON: Not in terms of disclosure?
11 MR. TIEGER: Yeah, not for that purpose. For the specific
12 purpose of review.
13 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber will consider the matter. But in the
14 meantime, we can proceed.
15 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
17 MR. ROBINSON: There's just one additional point of information.
18 If the Chamber considers it necessary that this element be
19 satisfied, we would ask that they make available the tapes of that
20 testimony, and perhaps over the weekend he could review them and then be
21 in a position next week to fulfill that requirement, if it's considered
22 to be necessary. Thank you.
23 JUDGE KWON: My technical question would be whether the witness
24 should be put to cross-examination by the Prosecution.
25 MR. ROBINSON: After Dr. Karadzic finishes, simply on the
1 Zupljanin/Stanisic transcripts? I don't think we would have any
2 objection if there was any matter in those transcripts that were covered
3 by the testimony that wasn't covered by Dr. Karadzic in his own
5 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. We'll see.
6 Let's proceed.
7 MR. TIEGER: Just for the record, Your Honour, the Defence has
8 those audios.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps it is
10 inappropriate, but may I?
11 I was given by Ms. Korner a translation of my testimony in the
12 Krajisnik case, and it jogged my memory. That was six years ago. As
13 regards the Stanisic and Zupljanin case, there is no need for that,
14 because that was done a couple of months ago here and it is still fresh
15 in my memory. So in my view, there is no need for my memory to be jogged
16 in terms of what I had said in the Stanisic and Zupljanin case. That is
17 my personal position.
18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Mandic.
19 And if asked, you would answer the same questions?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, definitely, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE KWON: Answer the question in the same manner, I meant.
22 Let's proceed, Mr. Karadzic.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 Q. I apologise, because I'll be asking you some basic questions,
25 which I have to do for the benefit of the Chamber and the participants to
1 be able to understand.
2 Do you agree that in our system, and before the multi-party
3 system, there had existed a legal obligation, and it was good practice
4 that in the government there was an equal share of all the three nations
5 in Bosnia-Herzegovina, they participated on an equal footing?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you. Do you recall that, in a way, there always had been
8 some dominance of one coalition over another, even in that kind of a
9 system, even in that system? Let me be of some assistance. If we go
10 from Turkish times, when, as Zulfikarpasic puts it, we were a second-rate
11 nation, but the Muslims were privileged; right?
12 A. Well, they were the majority nation, and they were in a position
13 of some dominance in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
14 Q. And after a shorter rebellion, during the time of Austro-Hungary,
15 they were also privileged?
16 A. I cannot answer that.
17 Q. Then I shall summarise it for you, and you can tell us what you
18 think about it.
19 During World War I, they were against the Serbs, the majority of
20 them; right?
21 A. Yes, they were -- the Muslim nation, as such, was part of the
22 independent station of Croatia
23 that state which had been created by Hitler and which was in existence
24 until 1944.
25 Q. You're talking about the Second World War?
1 A. I'm talking about the Second World War.
2 Q. Do you remember that after the Second World War, they were in a
3 coalition with the Serbs, and the Croats didn't have the best of times in
4 Bosnia and Herzegovina because they had lost the war?
5 A. I don't know that.
6 THE INTERPRETER: And the interpreter's comment: Could the
7 speakers please not overlap.
8 JUDGE KWON: Please do not overlap, Mr. Mandic and Mr. Karadzic.
9 The interpreters have a very hard time. Thank you.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. So you don't know that; you were a younger man?
12 A. No, Mr. President, I don't know that. I was on the police force
13 since age 15, and I didn't pay any attention to those kinds of things.
14 And I don't know anything about that postwar period, specifically.
15 Q. Thank you. Do you remember that as of the late 1960s, B and H
16 was jocosely interpreted as the private store of Branko and Hamdija? Was
17 there a dominance of the Croat and Muslim coalition in that time, the
18 late 1960s?
19 A. I don't know about that, Mr. President.
20 Q. And do you agree that also in that system, involved the police
21 and the judiciary and everywhere else, we had excellent professionals?
22 A. Yes, certainly.
23 Q. And do you agree that there were incorrect ideologically fervent
24 people who persecuted other people on an ideological basis, on
25 ideological grounds?
1 A. That was the case throughout the history of the Yugoslav peoples,
2 including after the Second World War.
3 Q. Do you agree -- do you agree that in 1990, at the elections, the
4 political system was changed from a mono-party system to a multi-party
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you agree that the question of trust in the old personnel
8 cadre could have been based on this ideological zealotry or
9 inappropriateness in the previous system, or could a difference, could a
10 distinction have been made between an appropriate suitable policeman and
11 another policeman who acted on the basis of his ideological convictions?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Thank you. I should like to put this to you: If somebody from
14 the field does not agree to a certain appointment, is against it, am I
15 right if I say that the grounds for such a displeasure can be: A, that
16 in the previous system that person was unprofessional and ideologically
17 incorrect; secondly, that that person was corrupt and associated with
18 crime; thirdly, that he was subjected or subject to manipulation by
19 Croats and Muslims; and, fourthly, that this fell into the category of
20 personal dislike or personal animosity?
21 A. Yes, certainly. Mr. President, in the socialist system, there
22 was an entirety service, as well as individual policemen, who were
23 actually socialism enthusiasts and who persecuted, in a way, people who
24 were religious and who thought differently, and people who thought that
25 the mono-party system, i.e., socialism, was not a good system. And those
1 people would, as a rule, be persecuted or would stand criminal trial, or
2 would in other ways be driven from the area of Bosnia and Herzegovina
3 As regards these other categories that you mentioned, it is true
4 that there were unprofessional people, corrupt people, manipulated
5 people, that there had been personal antagonisms between the local party
6 bosses and the people who were to remain or be appointed to these work
7 posts that you mentioned.
8 Q. Thank you. So if somebody from the field asked for an
9 appointment not to be made, we could assume that the reason for that
10 would have been one of these four grounds that I mentioned. Do you
11 remember that we actually did not acknowledge this fourth basis, the
12 personal animosity?
13 A. Well, I said so, and I have repeatedly stated that, at least as
14 far as you are concerned, Mr. President. Mr. Tieger has managed to
15 present to us two intercepts over this period of a year between you and
16 me and between me and Thomas [as interpreted]. There were various
17 pressures from the field for certain appointments of certain persons to
18 be made. I'm not only referring to the Serbian side, but also for the
19 Muslim and the Croat side. But you never asked -- nobody ever personally
20 asked me to settle unsettled interpersonal relations before that period
21 in this way, namely, but not by not appointing such a person. At least I
22 personally do not know of any such instance.
23 Q. Thank you. Do you perhaps, by any chance, remember that after
24 the -- immediately after the elections, I immediately proposed the
25 setting up of an expert rather than a party government in order to ease
1 political tensions in Bosnia and Herzegovina?
2 A. I know that you proposed the setting up of an expert government,
3 but when that was or whether before or after -- when after the elections,
4 I cannot recall with precision, Mr. President, because I was at the court
5 and I was not au courant with the political goings on.
6 Q. If I tell you to jog your memory the names of the persons of the
7 Serbian Democratic Party had appointed to executive branch positions
8 because they had one executive power, would you be able to identify them?
9 Do you know who the ministers and the deputy ministers of the Serbs were?
10 A. Yes, I know all the personnel structure, I know all the people,
11 because I co-operated with them throughout 1991 and in early 1992, as
12 well as later; namely, those people who became part of the Government of
13 the Republika Srpska.
14 Q. Thank you. Do you remember that the justice minister was
15 Ranko Nikolic, and in the previous system he was set up as allegedly
16 guilty of a corruption affair, and we gave him his job back?
17 A. Yes, he was the justice minister of the Socialist Republic
18 Bosnia and Herzegovina and the first one in the Serbian Republic
19 Bosnia and Herzegovina.
20 Q. Do you remember that he was not an SDS member?
21 A. No, he was not a member of any party.
22 Q. Now, I could tell you about two persons called Pejic, Momcilo and
23 Zdranko Pejic. They are related, in a way. Momcilo was also a minister
24 in one of the governments of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
25 A. Yes, in the Government of the Socialist Republic
1 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Momcilo Pejic was not a member of any party, and he
2 was the finance minister of the government before the elections.
3 Q. We also appointed him finance minister?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Do you agree that Zdranko Pejic, also as an expert and as an
6 economist, was part of the Cabinet?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you agree that none of these people, not Miodrag Simovic, nor
9 the minister of agriculture and forestry, Nadazdin, nor the deputy health
10 minister, Dr. Tatjana Starevic, Medan, none of the others were SDS
11 members, apart from the late Velibor Ostojic?
12 A. Well, to begin with myself, I was never a member of the SDS, and
13 I was elected as police minister for the Serbian people. And most of
14 these people had no party affiliation in the first multi-party
16 Q. You have already confirmed that you and I did not know each other
17 before, and do you know that I didn't know Zepinic or Simovic, either,
18 before the government was formed?
19 A. I cannot answer to that. But as far as I'm concerned, I saw you
20 for the first time in my life, I believe, in early 1991, when
21 Vito Zepinic brought me to the party offices to nominate me for this
23 Q. Do you agree that none of the regional police chiefs was a party
24 member and I didn't know them personally?
25 A. If you remember, at our first meeting you told me, You are
1 Mr. Mandic, after the introductions, You are a judge? I answered, Yes.
2 And you said, Please, if you come to occupy that post, please, together
3 with Zepinic, appoint only professional policemen who are of Serb
4 ethnicity and fitting for that post. That remains etched in my memory
5 because that was my first encounter with you.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Who are of Serb
7 ethnicity and are fitting for the post that is allocated to the Serb
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. I don't know if you are aware of the method of appointment of
11 Mr. Zupljanin, of the way he was appointed. There had been a
12 longstanding crisis there. Zupljanin and I attended together a meeting,
13 and most of the SDS
14 Who was the more professional of the two? And after hearing the answer,
15 I chose Zupljanin.
16 A. No, I didn't know that, but I know it was at Zepinic's proposal
17 that the chief of police in Banja Luka was appointed, Mr. Zupljanin.
18 Q. Thank you. Do you remember that I was exposed to critique and
19 pressure by party members, who said that the party had won power at the
20 elections, but I didn't give party members power, favouring experts?
21 A. Yes. I was also criticised for appointing Muslims and some of my
22 Serbs, as they said in the police, favouring them over various nominees
23 by various national parties, and they were very rough in their insistence
24 that party people come to the police.
25 Q. Do you agree that the Serbian Democratic Party did not take the
1 chance to take over any of their power ministries, as they called them,
2 the Ministry of the Interior and the Defence Ministry; we chose, instead,
3 the Finance Ministry, the Ministry of Information, the Ministry of
4 Agriculture, Water Management and Forestry? Do you recall that?
5 A. Of course. The Defence Ministry was taken by the Croats, as
6 coalition parties, and the minister was Jerko Doko. The minister of
7 police went to the majority party, the Muslim party. Alija Delimustafic
8 was the minister of police. And the Finance Ministry was headed by Pejic
9 and others, who had taken over from the previous regime, who were experts
10 and who continued in their jobs.
11 Q. Thank you. Do you recall that it was a very good custom, even
12 during Socialist times, and also under the law and under the inter-party
13 agreement, it was agreed that senior posts be allocated in such a way
14 that if post number 1 in a certain field goes to one party, then the post
15 number 2 goes to the second majority party?
16 A. Well, I tried to explain that to Mr. Tieger. If, let's say, the
17 Serbs were in the majority in a certain place, the chief of police would
18 be a Serb. And if the second majority community was Croat, then a Croat
19 would be man number 2, that is, police commander in that place.
20 Q. In one of these intercepts that we are going to tender to be
21 marked for identification, I inform one of you that in Prijedor, in
22 addition to the police chief and police commander, posts that belonged to
23 Serbs, they had appointed a Muslim, and there was also a Muslim as
24 secretary of defence in that municipality, et cetera. Was that a matter
25 that could be of concern to another community? It was not only unfair,
1 but it was also worrisome?
2 A. Could you remind me? What was that document?
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We will go through documents one by
4 one. 65 ter, please, 18004.
5 This is a 65 ter document that should have a translation. This
6 is a letter from the Serbian Democratic Party, dated 7 March 1991,
7 addressed to all municipality boards of the SDS, and the subject is "The
8 procedure for selecting executive personnel within the competencies of
9 republic ministries." It says:
10 "Appointments for chiefs of the Security Services Centre and
11 commanders shall follow this procedure: The Municipal Assembly or the
12 Executive Board of the municipality puts forward an official nomination,
13 with prior inter-party agreement, to the Ministry of the Interior, and
14 the minister -- and Vito Zepinic, deputy minister. Please do not exert
15 pressure to appoint candidates who do not meet the requirements, and it
16 is desirable to nominate two candidates for each post."
17 And then I have a separate proposal concerning the justice
18 minister. The appointments should be decided by the government.
19 Could the witness please see page 2.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Is this consistent with what you know about the position of the
22 Serbian Democratic Party; namely, that the procedure be observed strictly
23 and that only the government could decide, and that there should be two
24 candidates for each post?
25 A. Yes. As far as I know, there were only three nominations made in
1 the police.
2 Q. Yes. At least two, but usually three.
3 Can this be admitted?
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We don't have the translation for this
5 document, so it will be marked for identification.
6 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 Can we now get 65 ter 18554.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. While we're waiting, Mr. Minister, let me inform you. This is an
11 allocation of various executive posts in ministries between parties. The
12 first -- I seem to be reading very fast for the interpreters. I hope you
13 see it on the screen. You see the post of the minister goes to the HDZ
14 in the Defence Ministry, deputy minister is from the SDA, et cetera. But
15 what you know better is the Ministry of the Interior.
16 Can you see, from this, that we got the deputy minister post and
17 then the assistant minister for crime prevention - that was you - Zepinic
18 was a deputy minister, and then you also got -- we also got the post of
19 the assistant minister for analysis and information. Is it the case, let
20 me ask you, that in the Ministry of the Interior, the minister is the
21 most important position?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Is the second-ranking post the chief of State Security?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Do you agree that we only got deputy positions for both these
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you agree that the minister or someone in the Ministry of the
4 Interior unlawfully abolished the post of under-secretary for state
5 security, which was to have gone to us?
6 A. If you remember, Mr. President, before Mr. Kvesic's deputy was to
7 take up his post from the ranks of the Serbian people, and it was to be
8 Nedjo Vlaski, a man who had served in the security system in the
9 Socialist regime, with many years of service, Branko Kvesic made a new
10 staffing system and practically deleted this post of deputy. So the
11 Serbian Democratic Party lost this executive position, and you protested
12 against this more than once. You wrote a series of letters, and,
13 nevertheless, Nedjo Vlaski never took up that post which was to have
14 gone, according to the inter-party agreement, to the Serbian community.
15 That is the same Branko Kvesic to whom we have listened in an intercept
16 presented by Mr. Tieger.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 Can this document be admitted?
19 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Mandic, are you aware -- were you aware of this
20 document? For example, whose handwriting is this?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think this is Mr. Karadzic's
22 handwriting. I think; I'm not sure. We had all this in the ministries
23 and in the government, this allocation of posts document, to be able to
24 know which post had to go to which community. This is a document that
25 reflects the inter-party agreement, the coalition agreement between the
1 parties that had won the elections.
2 JUDGE KWON: Are you seeing a date in this document? Probably
3 the top of the document.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] January 1991.
5 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
6 Mr. Tieger.
7 MR. TIEGER: Just two quick things, Your Honour.
8 I think the need for the Court to intervene arose because it
9 appears to me to be a process by which the accused tries to authenticate
10 the document and then proceeds to ask questions about it generally.
11 I think we need to -- he'll need to concentrate more on the possibility
12 of the witness doing so.
13 Secondly, I'm not aware whether there's a translation for this,
14 but beyond the procedural irregularity, I don't have an objection to the
16 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
17 We'll mark that for identification, pending translation.
18 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI
19 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, you need to put the foundation
20 material to the witness so that the Chamber can understand the document,
21 what it is about.
22 Let's proceed, Mr. Karadzic.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I would only like to say
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Witness, does this reflect the gist of the inter-party agreement,
2 according to which executive authorities should have acted in making
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. From the viewpoint of the SDA and the HDZ, the representatives of
6 Muslims and Croats respectively, was everything honoured?
7 A. As far as the Ministry of Police is concerned, yes.
8 Q. Were Serbs cheated out of this post of deputy under-secretary for
9 state security by virtue of this unlawful modification of the staffing
10 system, the staffing specification?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You know well what state security meant in our system. Could
13 that have been a reason for concern among the Serbs?
14 A. Could you make that question a bit clearer? Which Serbs, those
15 employed with the police, or the party, or all Serbs in general?
16 Q. All of them, in general. Do you agree that State Security was an
17 important branch that could control practically everything, especially
18 under the previous system?
19 A. Yes, it was the State Security Branch, the security of the state.
20 Q. Do you agree that this method, first post to one community, the
21 second to another community, was established to achieve democracy in the
22 control system?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Can we then conclude that in the State Security Branch, this
25 mechanism of democratic control was breached by cancelling this post that
1 was to have gone to the Serbs?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Could that have been a reason for concern for Serbs employed in
4 the police, those in the party, and Serbs, in general?
5 A. I can't talk about the people, in general, or even the employees
6 in the police. I don't know.
7 Q. However, if things were happening as they were in Croatia, do you
8 agree that the very roots of the secessionist armies in Slovenia,
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Do you agree that State Security in Bosnia and Herzegovina
12 belonged to the HDZ, was allocated to the HDZ, the representatives of the
13 Croatian people?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. The Croatian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina, were they in favour of
16 secession, and were they on the side of Croatia in the war against
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. From that point of view, then, if State Security were not to have
20 that kind of control, such as deputy under-secretary for state security
21 from the ranks of the Serbs would have been, would that be a reason for
23 A. Yes. Well, for the SDS
24 people probably didn't know about all of this.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 65 ter 30020. Could we have that, please? It is an intercept.
2 We have to use it, although we have objections in that regard.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. This is the 21st of May, 1992. This is a conversation between
5 Mr. Zepinic and myself. Do you agree that at that point in time, Zepinic
6 was, by definition and in terms of the office he held, responsible for
7 the appointment of Serb personnel to appropriate positions that belonged
8 to the Serb people?
9 A. Yes. Vito Zepinic was a member of the Serb Democratic Party, in
10 the Ministry of Police.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have page 2.
12 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, excuse me.
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
14 MR. TIEGER: Before the witness is directed to particular
15 portions of the intercept, could we have a bit more clarification of what
16 the objections are to the intercept? We have to use it, although we have
17 objections in that regard.
18 JUDGE KWON: Probably, he was referring to his general objections
19 he referred to in one of his earlier submissions. Am I correct,
20 Mr. Karadzic, in so understanding?
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wish to establish, with the
22 assistance of this document, how the realisation took place.
23 JUDGE KWON: No, I meant your objections to the intercepts you
24 referred to in your statement. You said:
25 "It is an intercept. We have to use it, although we have
1 objections in that regard."
2 What objections did you refer to?
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, our well-known position that
4 was presented by Mr. Robinson as well; namely, that these intercepts,
5 before the war, can only be used as evidence for the unfairness of the
6 SDA that is unlawfully tapping all the conversations of Serbs, and not
7 Muslims and Croats. We could not get a single intercept of
8 Alija Izetbegovic or any other party leader or state official from the
9 Muslim side; also, Biljana Plavsic, Nikola Koljevic, all the rest. That
10 is to say, if they are taken as evidence, they can only be taken as
11 evidence proving that the Serb side was under unlawful pressure there.
12 But they were listening in, weren't they?
13 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger, are you satisfied?
14 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour, thank you.
15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
16 Let's proceed.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In the transcript, Mr. Mandic did
18 not say that Vito Zepinic was a member of the Serb Democratic Party. He
19 was not a member of the Serb Democratic Party. The witness did not say
20 that. He was the personnel officer.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. He took care of that to see that the inter-party agreements are
23 honoured properly on the Serb side?
24 A. Yes, he took care of the personnel policy on behalf of the SDS in
25 the Ministry of the Police.
1 Q. Thank you. We will go back to see who the candidates were and
2 according to which criteria.
3 Can we now have page 2 of this document. In Serbian, I see it --
4 ah, I see, yes. I'm not sure that the English and Serbian versions are
5 the same.
6 What I'm saying here is:
7 "What about the special unit?"
8 In Serbian, it is the first box on this page. Obviously, I had
9 realised that something was being changed in the special unit. And
10 further down, it says:
11 "If they got the police command, then we would have to get the
12 command of the special unit."
13 Isn't that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. A bit further down, I'm expressing my concern because in
16 Vojkovici -- Vojkovici is a Serb neighbourhood?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. I'm saying that some people in civilian clothes are snooping
19 around Vojkovici, there are 20 of them, and it is obvious that they are
20 policeman, but in civilian clothes. Zepinic says:
22 I say:
23 "I don't know whether it is para-state. I'm afraid it is not the
24 police, because there seems to be no distinction there ."
25 Did you notice that immediately after the elections, there was
1 less and less of a distinction between the SDA and the police?
2 A. In the Ministry of Police, the chief of the uniform police was
3 from the ranks of the Muslim people. Ex officio, he was the superior of
4 the special unit of the MUP.
5 Q. At that point in time, was a Croat, Vikic, the commander of this
6 special unit?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Wouldn't it be proper, if the chief of the police is a Muslim,
9 that the head of that unit should be a Serb?
10 A. I cannot answer that, Mr. President, because Vito Zepinic was in
11 charge of personnel policy at the time and I was not really very
12 well-versed, as far as these discussions were concerned at ministry
13 level, in terms of pursuing personnel policy within the Ministry of
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 Can we have the next page, please, this entire conversation.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Mr. Minister, if you see that, it has to do with my
19 dissatisfaction over the way in which Vito Zepinic is carrying out the
20 inter-party agreement, and I'm asking him why there are some people who
21 the people from local level do not want. Do you see that? It is here on
22 this page, and I am asking about some Maletic, and so on and so forth.
23 Do you agree that the most frequent problem was that at local level they
24 did not want anyone who had been persecuting them in the previous system
1 A. I think, Mr. President, that we took care of that when we
2 discussed those four positions; lack of corruption, manipulation, and so
3 on. Right now, you are talking about those individuals who persecuted
4 Serbs who were not eligible in the times of socialism. You are
5 presenting that to Zepinic, who is explaining certain things to you and
6 the way in which he sees the election of these people.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have page 5 in English. I
8 believe that in Serbian, it would be page 4. Yes, it is page 4 in
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. And what I say here is:
12 "First there is a Croat, I think, and the second one, too.
13 Please, let us take that, because they have the police command, they have
14 this Hebib. We should at least take that so that our people can be sure
15 that nothing illegal would be done. We are not afraid of anything that
16 is legal, but we are afraid that something illegal would be done."
17 Have you found that particular box?
18 A. You've just reminded me, Mr. President. The commander of the
19 brigade of the special unit was a Croat. The commander of the special
20 unit was also a Croat.
21 Q. Yes, you found that box. So what we are asking for is democratic
22 control, that it is impossible for the knife and the bread to be in the
23 same hand, as we say in our part of the world; that is to say, that the
24 number-one and number-two man cannot be from the ranks of the same
1 A. Yes, that was insisted upon.
2 Q. And the next box is what I am saying:
3 "And then -- and then when we have our own man there, then he can
4 guarantee that there will be nothing illegal. And, finally, it is only
5 fair that it is equal everywhere. If our man is in charge, they will
6 have a deputy, and if it is theirs, we will have the deputy, and that
7 will be okay. Okay, you're going to take care of that."
8 And so on and so forth.
9 Do you agree that for a considerable amount of time, we believed
10 that Mr. Zepinic would take care of this, and finally it turned out that
11 we were unsatisfied because Mr. Zepinic was subject to manipulation,
12 people on the ground were dissatisfied?
13 A. Yes.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 Can this document be admitted; for identification, I mean.
16 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we will do so.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be MFI D357.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D2019, could we have that, please.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. While we're waiting for that, Mr. Mandic, let me ask you: Do you
21 recall that the government was established sometime towards the end of
22 January 1991?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did you know, since we were in a position to know, that already
25 in February 1991 a decision had been passed to establish a council for
1 the defence of Muslims attached to the SDA?
2 A. No, Mr. President, I was not aware of that.
3 Q. Did you know that it started functioning already in the month of
5 A. That, I did know.
6 Q. Let us take care of this first. Do you recall the document? We
7 don't have the Serbian version on our screen. I don't have it either.
8 It's the 4th of June, 1991. The Ministry of the Interior is sending this
9 document to the Presidency of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and
11 Order. Do you remember that Mrs. Plavsic was chairman of this counsel?
12 A. Yes, Ms. Biljana Plavsic was president of the Council for the
13 Protection of the Constitutional Order of the Socialist Republic
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I have this document in B/C/S,
16 Your Honours? I don't have it, but you can read it out, and then you're
17 going to realise what it's all about.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. This is a report on the arrest of members of the Croatian MUP.
20 It's from 1992, actually, but -- all of it is 1991, the 18th of May,
21 1991. And on the 4th of June, 1991, you are writing this accompanying
22 letter to the Council for the Protection of the Constitutional Order,
23 when some men from the Croatian MUP were arrested, those who were
24 transporting weapons through Bosansko Grahovo. Do you remember that?
25 A. Yes, weapons and Motorolas.
1 Q. Can you tell us briefly what this incident was all about?
2 A. I think that the Public Security Station in Bosansko Grahovo
3 stopped a convoy that was transporting weapons across the territory of
4 Bosnia-Herzegovina to the Republic of Croatia
5 ammunition, and Motorolas. I am informing Ms. Biljana Plavsic about
7 Q. Thank you. I'm going to read it out in English:
8 [In English] "With regard to your request in letter strictly
9 confidential number," so-and-so, "the 3rd of June, 1991, we are sending
10 you the report of the MUP of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and
12 Republic of Croatia
13 Security Station, and the report of 27th of May, 1991, on the working
14 meeting at which the question of ordering the detention and extending the
15 detention of the three policemen from the Croatian MUP was reviewed."
16 [Interpretation] That's all Ms. Plavsic --
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger.
18 MR. TIEGER: Sorry to interrupt, and I don't know how long
19 Dr. Karadzic intends to spend with this document, but we can certainly
20 provide a hard copy of the -- obviously, there's a B/C/S for this
21 document. It was created in B/C/S. We can provide a hard copy to be put
22 on the ELMO or e-mail it. But if he's going to read portions of it, that
23 would obviously be quicker.
24 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Tieger.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I didn't mean to go into detail,
1 but it is going to be of interest to the participants. I would just like
2 to have this confirmed.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Did Ms. Plavsic ask you, on the 3rd of June, to inform her, as
5 head of the Council for the Protection of the Constitutional Order, about
6 this incident, and that on the 4th of June, you sent this letter with a
7 report attached?
8 A. Yes.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 Can this be admitted? If the witness wishes to refresh his
11 memory, he can have a look at the Serbian version, but I'm not going to
12 discuss it in depth.
13 JUDGE KWON: The date -- rather, the year on the second page
14 should be a typo, Mr. Mandic. It should read "1991," I take it.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You're right.
16 JUDGE KWON: It was sent in 1991, Mr. Mandic; is it correct?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
18 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Am I right when I say that this was before the outbreak of
21 conflicts in Croatia
22 A. Yes.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 Can this be admitted?
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D358.
2 JUDGE KWON: I note the time, Mr. Karadzic. If it's convenient,
3 we'll have a break now for half an hour.
4 Yes, Mr. Tieger, do you have something?
5 MR. TIEGER: Just very quickly, Your Honour, with regard to the
6 92 ter issue related to Stanisic/Zupljanin.
7 Obviously, I have no interest in being obstructive. Clearly,
8 when you look at 92 ter -- well, I shouldn't say "clearly." Testimony
9 transcribed and taken in open court presents somewhat different issues
10 than statements. Nevertheless, we have the issues presented. It would
11 have been a bit helpful if we'd been notified in advance so we could give
12 some thought to that, but I'm not precluding the possibility that the
13 Prosecution will get back with a position accommodating to the Defence.
14 But I think we need a moment -- at least some opportunity to consider it,
15 in light of the Rules.
16 JUDGE KWON: Since you raised this, I was about to raise it after
17 the recess, but given the page numbers are over 1.000, so instead of
18 tendering the whole transcript in Stanisic/Zupljanin, I'm minded to tell
19 the accused to identify specific parts of the transcript that he would
20 wish to have admitted, whether the purpose of tendering is either to show
21 the inconsistency of his statement or adding some parts to the evidence.
22 With that, we'll have a break for half an hour.
23 --- Recess taken at 12.02 p.m.
24 --- On resuming at 12.31 p.m.
25 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, you seemed to have something to say
1 when I said about the transcripts of this witness in Stanisic and
2 Zupljanin trial.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Excellency. That is about
4 440 pages. If that is much, then I can go through that transcript and we
5 can have it confirmed by the witness. But I would, in that case, need an
6 additional day for my examination. If I do get that day, if it is easier
7 for the Chamber so that we do not encumber the entire case file, we can
8 also proceed in that way, but I do have to have that additional time.
9 JUDGE KWON: While you can go along with the parts that you wish
10 to put to the witness, please let us know those specific page numbers you
11 have in mind, so then we can have a look and then can indicate in which
12 way we should proceed. So if you could let the Chamber know, in writing
13 or even through e-mail, whatever, or whatever means you find appropriate.
14 Let us know the page numbers you -- specific page numbers you referred
15 to, as 400 pages; be it 400 or 300, let us know.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. If we would not go
17 through it in this way, it would be entire testimony of Mr. Mandic. But
18 if we do get this time, we can go through it and clarify some points
19 which the witness will then, on his part, corroborate or deny.
20 JUDGE KWON: I didn't mean necessarily that you have to go
21 through each item in order to tender them. What I told you, let the
22 Chamber know in advance what page numbers you are minded to tender.
23 Let's proceed, Mr. Karadzic.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 If I remember correctly, this document has been admitted, the one
1 of the 4th of June, 1991.
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes, it has been admitted as Exhibit D358.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 Can we now have 1D1891.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Mr. Minister, I believe that you -- at least as much as we knew
7 about the clandestine actions of the Party of Democratic Action, but this
8 is no secret; namely, on the 11th of June, in Sarajevo, was formed the
9 SDA National Defence Council. Did you confirm that just a while ago?
10 A. Yes, I know that.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I should like to see that document,
12 1D -- yes, that is it. I don't know whether we have the translation.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Is that that document?
15 A. Yes. The then general-secretary of the Party of Democratic
16 Action is, in the signature line, Hasan Cengic.
17 Q. When I said that the link between the SDA and the police was
18 being lost, I was largely referring to, actually, Mr. Hasan Cengic. Do
19 you know that Mr. Hasan Cengic is a minister of the faith, a hodja by
21 A. Mr. President, I know everything about Mr. Hasan Cengic. I
22 worked in the service for a long time. I know that Mr. Cengic first
23 completed the medresa and then the Theological Faculty either in Algeria
24 or IN Iran
25 Q. Thank you. Do you know that he was part of the group that,
1 together with Alija Izetbegovic, was convicted by the
2 Bosnian-Herzegovinian Court in 1983 of association on the basis of the
3 Islamic Declaration?
4 A. He was a member of this group which was called the Young Muslims,
5 and he was tried and convicted, together with Mr. Izetbegovic, in the
7 Q. Do you know that his father, Halid, as early as in the -- as in
8 1990, before the elections, had formed the first unit of the
9 Patriotic League in Foca and in the mosque in Ustikolina?
10 A. No.
11 Q. But do you know that his father was Halid, and that later he was
12 the chief logistics officer of the BH Army?
13 A. Yes.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now we will see another document.
15 Can this be admitted into evidence?
16 JUDGE KWON: Yes, it will be admitted.
17 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D359.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have 1D1885.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Until that is shown on the screen, could I ask you this: Would
21 it be fair to say -- well, we saw that Ms. Plavsic was the president of
22 the Council for the Protection of The constitutional Order, but do you
23 agree that the president of the Presidency is, by virtue of his office,
24 the president of the Council for the Defence of the Republic?
25 A. Yes, that is a constitutional category.
1 Q. Yes. And was it Mr. Izetbegovic?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What would you say if I told you that Mr. Izetbegovic, in
4 addition to being the president of the council for the defence of the
5 entire republic, of -- for all the three nations, that is, becomes the
6 president of the semi-legal clandestine council for the defence of just
7 the Muslims? Whom should he arrest, I mean Mr. Izetbegovic, in such a
9 A. I'm a witness here, Mr. President. I'm not an expert. When you
10 call me as an expert, I can give you an answer to that question.
11 Q. Thank you. Is this that document -- there was another page in
12 front. I don't know why it is missing right now.
13 Can you take a look at this cover letter. Can you actually read
14 it aloud, and can you comment on it?
15 A. "In keeping with the joint agreement of authorised
16 representatives of the MUP of the SR B&H and the MUP of the Republic of
18 Education Centre in the Republic of Croatia
19 Action, Sarajevo
20 course at your centre.
21 "Yours faithfully, acting SDA secretary, Hasan Cengic."
22 This is Mirsad Lukovic. The person in question is
23 Mirsad Lukovic.
24 Q. He signed on his behalf?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. So, actually, Mirsad Lukovic is the person being assigned to the
2 course, the name of the candidate?
3 A. Yes, the name of the candidate is Mirsad Lukovic, but somebody
4 signed on behalf -- the letter on behalf of Hasan Cengic, the SDA
6 Q. Do you now see -- this is the basic document, but we have 80 such
7 applications for training in Croatia
8 training in Bosnia-Herzegovina for training the police?
9 A. In Bosnia and Herzegovina, there existed a number of places where
10 the police were trained. Well, there was a training centre at Vraca
11 where the regular secondary school cadets attended, and of the senior
12 schools as well. And there were different courses for forensic
13 technicians, for policemen, for anti-sabotage purposes and units, and
14 such, so on and so forth. Also, there was a centre, a training centre,
15 in Tarcin, in Banja Luka, in Bihac, in Mostar, and I believe also one in
16 Doboj. That is as far as training courses for policemen are concerned,
17 but I'm not quite certain.
18 Q. Thank you. To clarify it for the Chamber, these courses were for
19 adults who had already had some educational backgrounds and were only
20 being additionally trained to be policemen; is that right?
21 A. These were the so-called specialist courses where people applied
22 who had done their military service, who had completed one of the
23 specialised secondary schools, if there were courses for policemen, for
24 forensic technicians, for counter-sabotage defence, et cetera.
25 Q. Thank you. In contrast to that, cadets would attend the
1 Secondary Police School
2 A. Yes. Well, pupils, cadets like I, myself, was, who attended for
3 the four-year school, police school, secondary school at Vrace, from 815
4 to 19 mainly.
5 Q. Thank you. These people that the SDA was assigning to Croatia
6 for training, were they cadets or were they mature people of age who were
7 to undergo this training for additional training, additional education?
8 A. These were courses for probationers, for apprentice policemen, as
9 it were, meaning that the already-formed persons attended these courses.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see another cover letter on
11 the ELMO, please, from the same field. It ought to be in e-court, but we
12 cannot find it.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Can I ask you to read this one out too?
15 A. "Instruction for assigning candidates to the training centre of
16 the Republic of Croatia
17 to the president.
18 "Enclosed, we are attaching a copy of instructions on the manner
19 of admitting -- of employing policemen in the MUP of the
20 Republic of Croatia
21 candidates with these instructions. It is the duty of every candidate to
22 take along a letter of recommendation by the party, which we are
23 attaching here; also, his birth certificate, marriage certificate, and
24 the birth certificates for family candidates, as well as a certificate on
25 having completed a military service, a certificate of a clean police
1 record, no prior convictions, a certificate of educational background and
2 employment record and working booklet, if any, and, if they also should
3 pass, a certificate on a medical checkup."
4 And below it is the address of the Educational Centre in the
5 Republic of Croatia
6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We do not have it on the
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Hasan Cengic is in the signature,
9 but also signed by somebody else on his behalf, and a greeting.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. But this is a party document, like all the instructions in
12 general are?
13 A. Yes, it is by the Party of Democratic Action.
14 Q. Would you say that there was no reason whatsoever for the party
15 to be assigning people to be trained, the policemen or candidates for the
16 police force to be trained in Croatia
18 A. But this was without the knowledge of the Ministry of the
19 Interior, and it was without the knowledge of any state organ in the
20 Socialist Republic
21 Q. But you knew that, as any police would known?
22 A. Yes, of course. We had information about it.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 Can we have this document admitted?
25 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Mandic, can I be a bit more clear? Can I be
1 clearer? You said that was done without the knowledge of the Ministry of
2 the Interior, and then you said you have -- you had had information about
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Ministry of the
5 Interior in Bosnia and Herzegovina had all its training centres and
6 educational centres in which all profiles of policemen were trained,
7 starting with specialist courses and through secondary schools up to
8 universities. We had information from the field that in a clandestine
9 fashion, members of the Muslim nationality were being sent to training
10 courses in Croatia
11 Interior. This was never discussed, nor was the minister ever informed
12 officially of this, or any one of us in the ministry, the members of the
13 minister's collegium, for that matter.
14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Mandic.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You are welcome, Your Honours.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Am I right when I say, then, that this was actually the formation
18 of a party police force behind the back of the regular state organ?
19 A. Could you please rephrase your question?
20 Q. If the Party of Democratic Action is secretly and behind their
21 backs sending -- behind the backs of the state police sending people to
22 be trained in another republic, is that an action whereby the Party of
23 Democratic Action is creating its own armed force?
24 A. At that moment, we were not clear on what was happening. We --
25 the non-Muslim personnel in the Ministry of the Interior, we were not
1 clear on whether they were being sent to the front in Croatia under the
2 veil of training, or was it the intention for them to be trained there
3 and then to return to Bosnia and Herzegovina. It was only towards the
4 end of 1991 and early 1992 that we found out what the objective of that
5 training had been and of assigning young Muslims to not only Croatia
7 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber will admit the previous document, i.e.,
8 1D1885, as Exhibit D360.
9 But I'm not sure about the status of the next document, another
10 document of similar kind. Is it listed in 65 ter list?
11 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It can be part of the same exhibit,
13 because this is a cover letter, in a way, explaining the documents that
14 were attached.
15 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger, the date is the same, of similar kind.
16 MR. TIEGER: I don't object, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
18 So we'll mark them for identification, pending translation, given
19 the second part of the document was not translated.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 May I just inform you that this text of the instructions is the
22 same for 80-something candidates. One was translated, and just the names
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Mandic, let me ask you: When testifying in the
1 Stanisic/Zupljanin case, you had an opportunity of seeing these names of
2 persons who were sent to Croatia
3 A. Yes, for sure.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 Can we have 1D1882, please.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. While we're waiting for that, let me ask you: Were there any
8 Muslims who were against this, who criticised it?
9 A. Mr. President, that happened when these young people returned to
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina and when they were assigned to different jobs. Then
11 certain officials, both at higher and lower levels who were of Muslim
12 ethnicity and who were not familiar with this, were actually surprised;
13 and they did not agree to having these people taken in, in spite of the
14 fact that there were trained people in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Nevertheless,
15 these other persons were admitted into the Ministry of the Interior.
16 However, no one had known that these people were being trained.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D1882, please, could we have that
19 Let me say --
20 JUDGE KWON: Can you say whether it has been up-loaded?
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, it should be there.
22 JUDGE KWON: I'm hearing, No, from the Court Deputy.
23 THE ACCUSED: It should be released, I suppose. It is -- just a
24 few seconds.
25 [Interpretation] All right. While we're waiting for this, could
1 we have 65 ter 30103. Well, we do have the previous one, yes, 1D1882.
2 And 1883 should be in preparation. Yes, this is the English version.
3 Can we have the Serbian version as well.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. May I inform you that this is a letter from the Banja Luka Centre
6 of Security Services to Ms. Plavsic, as president of the council. And it
7 says up here:
8 "To the Council for the Protection of the Constitutional Order of
9 the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina
10 Let's not read all of it. Could you read the last paragraph down
11 here, and then let's move on to the next page.
12 Can you see this in Serbian? It starts with the words "Da se"?
13 A. Yes, yes.
14 Q. Can you read that, and then we'll move on to the next page.
15 A. You mean, "On Monday, the 22nd of July ..." should I start from
17 Q. Well, okay.
18 A. "On Monday, the 22nd of July, 1991, I was at a meeting in the
19 Ministry, and I could not believe my eyes when I received the survey of
20 the staffing system. It was not so much the content that amazed me as
21 the appearance, or, to be more precise, the colour in which it was
22 printed. It is a well-known fact that the colour of police equipment is
23 blue, so why, then, is green suddenly being introduced in official
24 correspondence? And is this a sign of the dominance of Muslims in this
25 important ministry? All of this was the doing of two assistant
1 ministers: assistant minister for the police, Mr. Avdo Hebib, and
2 assistant minister for legal and administrative matters and foreign
3 nationals, Mr. Hilmo Selimovic.
4 "That attempts were being made to create a Muslim army out of
5 this Ministry is also apparent from --"
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have the next page in
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "... from this ministry is also
9 apparent from the most recent police training course that began on the
10 22nd of July, 1991. Our recommendation was that if a course had to be
11 organised, then, in accordance with the shortfall in numbers on the basis
12 of ethnicity, the course should accept a larger number of Serbs from the
13 Republic of Croatia
14 subjected to the most perfidious methods, by means of which they are
15 being driven out of the service. This would have significantly reduced
16 the expenses of the course. However, a very perfidious game is being
17 played over the admission of these course students. First,
18 300 candidates were recommended, and then 400 candidates. We have
19 information to the effect that a significant number of the course
20 students are Muslims from Sandzak (around 80 per cent) ... "
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Next paragraph.
23 A. "... that some ethnic Muslims are being sent in an organised way
24 to a course in the MUP of the Republic of Croatia
25 the Official Note that some ethnic Muslims are being sent in an organised
1 way to --"
2 Q. Let me just ask you, for the benefit of the Trial Chamber: Where
3 is Sandzak?
4 A. In the Republic of Serbia
5 Q. Is it rather customary to say Sandzaklija in Bosnia
7 A. That is the name that is used for Muslims who come from the
8 district of Raska and who live in Sarajevo
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 Can we have this document admitted, and then could we call
11 up 1883.
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes. That will be exhibited as -- admitted as
13 Exhibit D361.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 Yes, now we have this document, that the chief of the Banja Luka
16 Security Services is speaking. So this is an official note.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Could you please have a look at it? There's no need to read it
19 out. Please don't read the names out. Let these persons remain
20 anonymous, because that is what was intended. But, anyway, everyone can
21 see it from the document.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So could it please not be displayed
23 to the public.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. We see here that a police operative found out -- namely, that
1 this gentleman informed him that Isak Gunic, nicknamed Isak, was going as
2 an SDA member to a course that is organised in Zagreb, that he was going
3 to be trained in Zagreb
4 salary there of six and a half thousand dinars, and that this was being
5 financed by the Arab Emirates. And then Gunic also showed them
6 questionnaires that they were to supposed to fill out when going to
8 questionnaires and that the questionnaires were signed by Hasan Cengic.
9 This Muslim said that he refused to go, and he informed his colleague,
10 this policeman, who compiled this Official Note.
11 Is this in keeping with what you found out unofficially about
12 this illegal activity of the Party of Democratic Action?
13 A. This was one of the ways in which we found out about the fact
14 that these young persons of Muslim ethnicity were being sent for training
15 to the Republic of Croatia
16 Honourable Trial Chamber.
17 Q. Mr. Mandic, let me ask you: If the Party of Democratic Action is
18 preparing a secret police, a secret armed force, who would be their
19 assumed adversary?
20 A. The Serbs.
21 Q. And possibly the JNA; right?
22 A. As a people, the Serbs.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 Can this be admitted into evidence?
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
1 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit D362.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have 65 ter 30103.
4 May I inform you that this is an intercept of a conversation
5 taking place between myself and Mr. Krajisnik on the 13th of July, 1991
6 This conversation primarily relates to difficulties within the MUP.
7 JUDGE KWON: I was advised that there's no such document in the
8 e-court. Could you check it again?
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is the 65 ter number, 30103.
10 It should be there.
11 JUDGE KWON: I have it. 65 ter 30103, I have it. It should be
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 Q. Could you now please have a look at this.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In English, we need page 2. It
16 will be a good thing if we had the Serbian version as well, instead of
17 this Official Note that we have here.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Yes, this is what it says here. In the Serbian version, it's
20 towards the bottom:
21 "That Mico Stanisic called me," says Mr. Krajisnik.
22 And then he goes on to say:
23 "They are in serious trouble over there, and we simply must make
24 a big cut. That Ljuto stung me again."
25 I think it's really "Vito," not "Ljuto."
1 "The other day, "let him -- well, go to hell."
2 And I say:
3 "Vito is a monster [as interpreted]."
4 I don't know.
5 "Rajko, we need to persuade Rajko that Vito is a monster,"
6 because Rajko had put him up as a candidate.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have the next page? In
8 English, it's 3. I did not say "monster," I said "cudo," "miracle."
9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The right interpretation
10 would be "quite a piece of work."
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. See what it says here now? Well, Krajisnik says:
13 "They have not resolved that. I thought that we should convene
14 all the cadres that are there, and let us write this up along with all
15 the irregularities and say, 'Gentlemen, let us resolve all of this, and
16 we are simply looking for an answer. We want this to be resolved.' That
17 is quite obvious."
18 And so on and so forth.
19 Now, perhaps it would be better if you would read one Krajisnik
20 and one Karadzic and then --
21 A. I don't have page 2.
22 Q. It says "ma ja." You can see that. It's the fourth line from
23 the bottom -- or from the top.
24 A. "Oh, yes, it's terrible, these petty deceits and tricks. I mean,
25 it is contemptible. People cannot living together that way. It is
1 terrible, what they're doing."
2 Momo Krajisnik:
3 "Yes, yes."
5 "And Vito is there and helping them. Actually, they've bought
6 him, man. They've given him a car. Now they're paying for his flat.
7 They're all scum. He's a scumbag. I think he's the worst scumbag."
9 "Oh, my goodness. For my own sake, I can't believe what you're
10 saying. But, honestly, this is no good."
11 Q. Do you know what it is that the two of us are discussing?
12 A. When I testified in the Zupljanin/Stanisic case, I described in
13 detail that the SDA had corrupted Mr. Vito Zepinic.
14 And, Mr. President, when we were talking about that one category
15 of people, that's where he was. He was given a car, Mazda 626, it was
16 found in Kasindol, near Lukavica, at the beginning of the war. Also in
17 the Street Leninova, number 8, they bought him a house, next door to the
18 kindergarten called Bosko Buha; we know exactly where it was. And he
19 also got some money.
20 We found the Mazda and the house that was bought for his business
21 premises. We just didn't find the money.
22 Q. What was supposed to be the service he was supposed to render?
23 It wasn't really a house. The transcript says "house," but it is
24 just business premises. That is to say that it can be a shop or some
25 such premises where business transactions can take place.
1 A. Yes, business premises.
2 Q. Why would they give such valuables to him? Why?
3 A. As we all know, Vito Zepinic was the ranking Serb in the
4 ministry. He was the personnel officer, and he was in charge of all of
5 that that was happening in the ministry. Basically, the objective was
6 for him to help the arming of the Muslim people, and that the weapons
7 that came through Croatia
8 Arab countries, enter Bosnia-Herzegovina unhindered. Inter alia, there
9 were personnel problems. And also there were other honest people there
10 whom they were trying to keep silent. For a while, I think that he had
11 dazzled you, in a way, Mr. President, by some of these stories he made up
12 about people who had actually carried out their work honestly through
13 Rajko Dukic. He made an effort to stay there for as long as possible and
14 to do the things that the SDA had paid him to do.
15 Q. Thank you. Can you look at the next one after Krajisnik. I'm
16 talking about Rajko. I say:
17 "No. Rajko is here. Now he feels guilty because he had
18 recommended him. He shouldn't feel guilty."
19 Do you agree that we had all made mistakes in making various
20 appointments and I'm trying to relieve Rajko Dukic of his feeling of
22 A. As far as I know it, Rajko Dukic used to be the president of the
23 Executive Board of the Serbian Democratic Party, and he was the main
24 personnel officer in the party.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we also see English page 5 and
1 Serbian page 3. The next one in Serbian, and page 5 in English.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Throughout this conversation, we discussed the things that were
4 going on and our inability to get the MUP to work lawfully. And look at
5 this line where Krajisnik says:
6 "Well, how ..."
7 A. "Well, how? What did he mess up? Listen, I told that lot down
8 there, 'Gentlemen, we have the right only to live together, and we will
9 press for that, and we won't let anyone break up Bosnia at the expense of
10 the Serbian people. That's it.'"
11 Karadzic says:
13 Krajisnik goes on:
14 "So, on the whole, it's all right."
15 Q. Were you aware that we were working for a united, undivided
16 Bosnia and Herzegovina as a state with the rule of law?
17 A. Yes.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 Can this intercept be admitted? Now it's marked for
21 JUDGE KWON: We'll mark it for identification as Exhibit D363.
22 And there are a couple of additional administrative matters which first
23 relates to the previous document, 1D1882. Noting that there's no
24 translation for that, we will -- would mark that for identification as
1 And then --
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think there is a translation.
3 JUDGE KWON: Zupljanin's letter to Plavsic. Did we -- no, no,
4 this is the -- I'm sorry, the -- Pecanic's Official Note. I don't think
5 there was one.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, there is one.
7 JUDGE KWON: 1D -- so Exhibit -- is, then, the English
8 translation for D362?
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 3.
10 JUDGE KWON: 3.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 3. Not for 2, but 3. 1883.
12 JUDGE KWON: So there's no English translation for 1D1883, so
13 we'll mark it for identification, pending translation.
14 And in relation to the 1D1885, which we admitted as Exhibit D360,
15 marked for identification, when I checked the e-court while it was put to
16 the witness, there was only one document, but I'm not sure whether
17 Mr. Sladojevic played a measure or not. Now it consists of 80 documents,
18 80 cover letters. And then the one you showed through ELMO may be
19 included in one of those documents. I haven't checked it. So we will
20 admit only -- that being the case, we will admit only those two pages
21 that were put to the witness. I don't see the necessity to admit all of
23 So we'll proceed.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, this is a standard
25 letter of recommendation for all 80 of them. It's a standard format. We
1 can have it admitted as such because it's the same text for all these
2 people. Only the names change.
3 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, we have evidence, and in the witness
4 confirmation there are -- there were 80 of them. We don't have to admit
5 them all. We don't need to then translate again.
6 So we can proceed, Mr. Karadzic.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 Can we now call up 65 ter 0113 [as interpreted]. I believe that
9 it was already tendered during the cross-examination by the Prosecution.
10 But on English page 4 I'd like you to look at -- the 65 ter is 30113. We
11 don't have the right document now. 65 ter 30113. Maybe it's already in
13 Now I'd like English page 4 and Serbian page 4.
14 JUDGE KWON: That's the one we admitted as Exhibit P1079.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, it was probably MFI'd.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Here in the middle, Karadzic says:
18 "Okay. Tell me what's going on in Prijedor."
19 Can you see this? This is a conversation between you and me on
20 the 22nd of July, 1992
21 government was formed seven months after the elections. Can you read
23 A. Radovan Karadzic says:
24 "Fine. Do you have any information ... they appointed a man in
25 Prijedor last Friday afternoon. Now there is a Muslim commander and a
1 Muslim mayor and Muslim chief of defence, Territorial Defence."
2 Momcilo Mandic says:
3 "I don't know. I'll look into it."
4 Q. All right. Was that one of those problems, where not even seven
5 months after the inter-party agreement was the agreement honoured, and a
6 Muslim was appointed to all these three posts?
7 A. Yes, and this is not an isolated case.
8 Q. I just wanted to point this out and remind the witness of the
9 background. Do you believe that the Serbs in Prijedor had reason for
10 concern, in view of the fact that the war had already started in Croatia
11 there were rumours about people arming themselves?
12 A. I can't answer that question. I don't know how people felt.
13 Q. Could all this be qualified as deceit and cheating and unlawful?
14 A. There was no deceit. It was simply failure to honour an
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 Can we now get 1D01393.
18 I see the witness's answer was not recorded, that it was not
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said it was not unlawful, because
21 if the person appointed met the legal requirements, it was not unlawful;
22 it was just failure to honour an agreement between parties.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. And it was contrary to the customs?
25 A. Well, according to the share of various communities in the total
1 population, the first man in a certain field was supposed to be from one
2 community, the second from the second most numerous communities,
3 et cetera. That was not observed. But it was not unlawful.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now get 1D01393.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Do you see that this is 11 February -- 12 February 1991? That's
7 a month after the creation of the coalition government. Can you read
9 "In estimating the security situation ..."
10 A. I can't read this. I can't see well enough.
11 Q. Then I'll do it. This was sent to all the municipal boards of
12 the SDS
13 Bosnia-Herzegovina. It goes:
14 "In estimating the security situation, we would like to point out
15 two aspects that need to be clarified. First, the flats and houses of
16 JNA Army members are marked with a special sign. And, second, rumours
17 are going around about the -- about unlawful acquisition of weapons
18 and --"
19 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger.
20 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour. Should it be of assistance, this
21 is the Prosecution's 65 ter 01458. It's also D00259. And there is a
22 translation available, if that's of assistance.
23 JUDGE KWON: Which means that has been already admitted. Let's
24 try that number.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] D259, yes.
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Mr. Mandic, just to refresh your memory, this letter says that
3 the homes of members of the JNA were being marked, just like in Croatia
4 and, second, there were rumours about people arming themselves. And now
5 these boards are required to compile reports, with one copy to be sent to
6 the party and another copy to the nearest army garrison.
7 Do you see that, at this time, tensions were already being
8 created through these rumours and also by marking the homes of JNA Army
10 A. I know that this sort of thing happened in the
11 Republic of Croatia
12 along the Una River
13 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, not at this time.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Since this is already in evidence,
15 I'd like to call 65 ter 30088. It's related to this topic. 30088.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Do you recall, Witness, that Mr. Izetbegovic, all the way up to
18 end January 1991, was in favour in preserving Yugoslavia, such as it was?
19 A. I know that because I provided security at those famous meetings
20 between all the presidents of all Yugoslav republics.
21 Q. Do you remember that in the end of January, the SDA announced the
22 adoption of the Declaration on Sovereignty, which was a step towards the
23 independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. These tensions and all these rumours circulating in mid-February,
1 do they indicate that it was precisely this announcement of independence
2 that created these tensions?
3 A. For all I know, the Serbs wanted to stay within the old
5 president of this rump Yugoslavia
6 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I noted that the transcript says, at
7 96/18, "January 1991." I'm not sure that's what the question intended by
8 way of the date.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may be of assistance:
10 "Up to the end of January, 1991," that's what I asked the
11 witness, "is it the case that the SDA and Izetbegovic were in favour of
12 keeping the old Yugoslavia
13 And the answer was: "Yes."
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. It was only at the end of January, the 31st of January, that the
16 SDA announced the change in its policy, right after the elections?
17 A. I don't know that the SDA changed its position in the end January
19 Q. All right. You were not involved in politics, but the first
20 attempt to endorse this document was in the end of January 1991?
21 A. I don't know about that, Mr. President.
22 Q. This is a conversation between me and Zepinic, deputy minister,
23 who was wire-tapped by his own service.
24 Can we see the second page in both versions. Where it says
1 A. "Let me tell you, please, this reorganisation that's being
2 carrying out, we have to see what this reorganisation will really mean,
3 and also don't let them remove a single man of yours, if all of you don't
4 want --"
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see page 3 in English.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] " ... whether it's good or not. I
7 have to sign something. Simovic sent me something to sign. Simovic does
8 not inform me. It's somewhere with Doko. I told Simovic to call me
9 urgently. He's at a Cabinet session. He was working --"
10 Oh, I see here, it says where he was working. And now I wonder
11 how it's possible that this young man will be moved from some service.
12 Maybe we need him in that service. Maybe he's the only one we need
13 there. But Simovic doesn't tell me about it. It's probably somewhere
14 with Doko."
15 Q. We'll stop here, page 4 in English. Do you remember that it was
16 a frequent manipulation? A reorganisation was carried out to remove a
17 Serb from a certain service where he could have an insight into what his
18 colleagues were doing?
19 A. That happened on the police force, as I described.
20 Q. Did you hear about this Knezevic man who was in the Communication
21 Service of the Ministry of the Interior?
22 A. Yes. I believe during the war he was an assistant minister for
24 Q. Do you remember that this Communication Service was also taken
25 over by the SDA?
1 A. I'm not aware of that.
2 Q. Do you agree that all this unlawful wire-tapping was not done by
3 the MUP, but by the SDA?
4 A. It was done by the service to which I also belonged, but there
5 were people who took all these tapes, et cetera, to just one place, to
6 the Party of Democratic Action, in other words. Of course, it was never
7 the state, it was never the prosecutor, who ordered that someone should
8 be wire-tapped in connection with some case or anything else. It was
9 just party politics being pursued, routing for one party, and the leader
10 of this entire team and the manager of this entire action was
11 Munir Alibegovic, who in the 1980s had actually locked up
12 Alija Izetbegovic in prison.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we see English
14 page 4 and the following page in the Serbian.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. See here, Karadzic says:
17 "How can they move him without us knowing about that?"
18 And in the last third, when Karadzic says --
19 A. "Well, no, I don't know who is moving him, who nominated him to
20 Simic for that role."
21 Zepinic: "Just to be honest, maybe he made a deal with Simovic.
22 The man didn't mention this."
23 Karadzic: "Yes, please do. I don't want to lose."
24 Zepinic: "Simovic has ..."
25 Karadzic: "Don't let go of a single one. I told Simovic to --
1 from the government, to leave the government, and to -- we'll talk on the
2 phone. Please, there is not a single post that they can, well, in a
3 sense ..."
4 Q. Can you skip over this and then go where it says "Pane,
6 A. Karadzic: "Well, no, I mean Kuzenovic should stay. That is of
7 interest to us. He cannot be moved without us knowing it. What Hilmo or
8 Alija or anybody else is doing, well, basically, what is basic, is they
9 will never -- they will never again with S ..."
10 Zepinic: "No, they are not doing it. You must understand
11 yesterday, last night, we talked about it at a collegium session. There
12 is not a chance about that."
13 Karadzic: "Come on. See to it that the collegium meets every
14 morning to see what happened yesterday and what is being planned for
15 today. Not a single appointment should be made without the full consent
16 of all the Serbs there."
17 Zepinic: "I don't know, I don't know. I have to see about it
18 all with Simovic."
19 Karadzic: "Because the result of that -- the upshot of that will
20 be -- we have prepared a scenario which will be horrendous. We have --"
21 Shall I continue?
22 Q. Yes, but skip the four-letter word.
23 A. "We have prepared, but in order to avoid that, let us sit down
24 every day."
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And can we see the next page in
1 Serbian and in English, page number 5.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Zepinic: "That is really
3 surprising for this to be."
4 Karadzic: "Because this government is shared by the three
5 nations and we shouldn't play dumb. Here the power is shared by three
6 peoples and one people, and if there are more cunning or if any of the
7 other people are not careful enough, the other people will gain the upper
9 Zepinic: "Sure enough. It is like that in all multi-national
10 communities. Three peoples are sharing power, watching closely not to be
11 tricked. And we've been tricked at the MUP, especially at the
12 State Security, short-changed. We would also be -- they were -- in which
13 Serbs will and which won't."
14 Q. Thank you. Is it clear here, Mr. Mandic, that what I'm asking
15 for is not that I or the party should make the appointments, but that the
16 Serbian collegium in the MUP should reach agreement on its own personnel,
17 and that that would be acceptable to us?
18 A. Yes.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 Can we have the next page in Serbian, and in the English version
21 it is page number 7.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. If I can -- it's the seventh box from the top. It is about a
24 certain Suka whom they're actually planting or -- can you look at it? It
25 says [B/C/S spoken].
1 A. Karadzic: "Come on. Brane Suka is the most infamous among the
2 true Serbs. He wire-tapped our premises up there. He ransacked the food
4 I guess, yes, he ransacked it.
5 Zepinic: "Well, damn them. Why are they suggesting him, then?"
6 Karadzic: "Who's proposing him?"
7 Zepinic: "Devedlaka and this company from the State."
8 Karadzic: "No, Devedlaka and the company cannot suggest him
9 until the entire Serbian collegium meets, they cannot."
10 Zepinic: "Well, we don't know. And those, they don't know
12 Karadzic: "Please, don't let them not know. No, they have to
13 know. Nothing should be done single-handedly. This is not a private
14 matter. The entire collegium should meet and they should be told this
15 position is vacant and we are suggesting this man for the job. I beg you
16 to stop doing these things on a private basis, because no one is entitled
17 to do that on a private basis."
18 Q. Is this in accordance with what you have just confirmed, that a
19 party was not asking this for its own sake, it is asking for a democratic
20 transparent process for the entire Serbian MUP to give their consent to
21 such approvals -- appointments?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Can you recall a single good Serbian professional policeman who
24 we rejected, who remained outside the service in the New Democratic
25 police force?
1 A. No, there is no such man.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 Can we then see page 9 in the English version and the next page
4 in the Serbian version, this largest paragraph that begins with "Dobro."
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Can you read that out?
7 A. Karadzic: "All right. Please, let the collegium meet every
8 morning, and let that all be cleared up. I was with Izetbegovic last
9 night and with Zulfikarpasic, and I told him, right to his face, we will
10 establish a parallel government, a parallel police. We will withdraw our
11 people, and they will have to be paid by the government. We'll withdraw
12 all our people under arms. We will establish an entire parallel state if
13 you keep on --"
14 Q. Yes, go on.
15 A. " ... screwing us. And he just looked at me and blinked, because
16 we'll do that. Not even God could stop us in that, because they started
17 to screw us and to fuck us up, and there is no doubt we will do all of
18 that in a week. So let there be war, let there be war, it may be that we
19 will finish the job for once."
20 Q. Continue.
21 A. Zepinic: "At least we'll know where we stand."
22 Karadzic: "We'll finish the job once and for all. And those
23 petty tricks, you know, we are now about to sign a very important
24 document together with them, with the Muslims, but I won't sign until all
25 these things are finished. This is a disaster. And I now see that
1 Devedlaka does not dare suggest anyone, to anybody on a private basis,
2 without verifying it with the party."
3 Q. Thank you. Do you remember this was the 22nd -- 24th of July?
4 Do you recall that this was when the historical Serbo-Muslim agreement
5 was being hammered out with Zulfikarpasic on the Muslim side, acting on
6 behalf of Izetbegovic? And I'm talking about this agreement, and I say
7 that I will be signing it only if agreements are honoured?
8 A. Yes, Mr. Zulfikarpasic was the president of the MB Party, the
9 Muslim party. He was chosen by Mr. Izetbegovic to negotiate with the
10 Serbs, the signing of this agreement. This was supposed to have been an
11 historic agreement between the Muslims and the Serbs.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 Can this be admitted for identification?
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
15 THE REGISTRAR: This will be D364, marked for identification.
16 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, we will stop your cross-examination
17 for today here. There are a couple of matters the Chamber wishes to deal
18 with at this point.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I had another document of the same
20 date, but tomorrow will be fine. Thank you.
21 JUDGE KWON: The first thing is related to you, Mr. Mandic.
22 The Chamber has been informed that -- informed of your wish to be
23 permitted to travel home over this coming weekend, in light of the fact
24 that your evidence is unlikely to be completed by that time and that we
25 are not sitting on Friday, 9th July, or Monday, 12th July. You have
1 given your assurance that you will return to complete your evidence after
2 the weekend, and we are of the view that you should be permitted to go
3 home for the long weekend. And we are grateful to the Victims and
4 Witnesses Section for making the necessary arrangements. I will only
5 emphasise to you, as I have done already, that is: It is imperative that
6 you do not discuss the content of your testimony with anyone before that
7 testimony is completed.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, for your
9 understanding. It goes without saying that I shall strictly abide by all
10 your instructions.
11 JUDGE KWON: The second matter is not related to you, but it may
12 be Mr. Robinson or Mr. Karadzic. It relates to one of the binding order
14 The Chamber is in the process of deciding the accused's motions
15 for binding orders, as you are well aware, and as of today there are only
16 two motions pending, those relating to Croatia and Bosnia
18 With regard to the motion concerning Croatia, the Chamber
19 received the submission from Croatia
20 that it is still searching for documents requested by the accused, and
21 that it is also prepared to provide the accused with a list of material
22 for inspection.
23 Before deciding the motion, the Chamber would like to know
24 whether there have been any developments in relation to it; in
25 particular: whether more documents have been given to the Defence by
2 the Croatian authorities in order to organise this inspection of
3 documents; and what the position of the Defence is as to the most
4 appropriate next step.
5 Therefore, before issuing the decision on that motion, the
6 Chamber would be assisted by answers to these questions from the Defence
7 in writing by the end of this week, if possible.
8 We'll resume tomorrow morning at 9.00.
9 [The witness stands down]
10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.
11 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 7th day of July,
12 2010, at 9.00 a.m.