Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4978

 1                           Tuesday, 13 July 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Good afternoon to everybody.

 6             I was advised, Mr. Karadzic, that you have something to raise

 7     before the witness enters the courtroom.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Excellencies.  Good

 9     afternoon, everybody.

10             Yes, I've asked for a short time to be allotted me to present

11     what I have, better in the absence of the witness.  This has to do with

12     associated evidentiary cases; i.e., exhibits.

13             You have been [indiscernible] inclined to this possibility

14     towards me.  Namely, I have not been given 48 hours for this witness, and

15     there are many things which are repetitive, but they are not identical.

16     They confirm certain events.  And, therefore, I should like to ask you

17     how I am to proceed.  My proposal is that you ask the witness to take a

18     look at a number of documents and at a number of agency pieces of news

19     which have to do with the government, the activities of the government.

20     There are some statements of his there as well.  There are some

21     statements of the government which we do not have, as such, but which

22     have been communicated via agencies.  There are various notices of

23     vacancies for prison guards, et cetera.  So no comments, in fact, but

24     just news, pieces of news that the witness is aware of, and events,

25     developments, that the witness is aware of.  I should like to ask the

Page 4979

 1     Chamber that the witness look at these and then initial the documents in

 2     question, and then the parties, together with the Chamber, could decide

 3     what is to be done with them.  And I should also like to hear the stance

 4     of the other party on this issue.

 5             There would be [indiscernible] a number of other governmental

 6     documents, because what I want us to do is not to repeat documents which

 7     are similar in nature to those that we have already seen and shown, but

 8     they are important for gaining the full picture.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Question number 1, Mr. Karadzic:  Has the witness

10     seen those documents yet?

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, we have had no contacts with

12     the witness.  Had we known that it would be a Chamber witness, we would

13     have taken those steps, but I meant, actually, for the Chamber to ask the

14     witness to take a look in the afternoon -- or, rather, in his spare time.

15     This is not much.  These are merely agency news.  He hasn't seen these

16     documents yet, but he knows of the events which they depict.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Second question is, Mr. Karadzic, whether the

18     Prosecution has been informed of the list of documents you want to tender

19     in that way.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, since I have been

21     given 48 -- had I been given 48 hours, I would have actually presented

22     these documents myself.  But since I haven't been allotted that much

23     time, I thought that we should proceed in this way: by the witness

24     examining the documents, and then we should like to ask the other side,

25     the Prosecution, to actually state their position on what the witness

Page 4980

 1     states.  It goes without saying that this can be, of course, rejected or

 2     dismissed, but what is of the essence is for the witness to finish his

 3     part of the job while he is here, and it is then up to us to either admit

 4     or not admit some of those pieces of evidence.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Just let me be clear.

 6             So the Prosecution at this moment does not have a clue what

 7     documents you have in mind?

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You're quite right, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

10             That heard, I have to ask you, Mr. Tieger, what would you say to

11     this suggestion?

12             MR. TIEGER:  A couple of things, Your Honour.

13             First of all, Dr. Karadzic raised this earlier, as, I believe,

14     the Chamber will recall, and was told at that time to present the

15     documents to the Prosecution so the process could move forward.

16             As a general matter, we -- the Prosecution agrees that there are

17     expeditious ways of presenting relevant documents, and we're happy to

18     seek, with the Defence, an appropriate -- any appropriate mechanism of

19     doing so.  And, in general, had we been presented with these documents,

20     we would have treated it as an anticipated Bar table submission and dealt

21     with the documents accordingly.  So it's unfortunate that that process

22     was not followed.

23             As I understand the current suggestion, it seems to be an

24     amalgamation of several different approaches, kind of combining the

25     normal process of presenting documents to a witness with a classical Bar

Page 4981

 1     table submission.  I anticipated, when the accused raised the possibility

 2     earlier and was advised by the Court to present them to the Prosecution,

 3     that we would be dealing with them as a Bar table submission, and we were

 4     quite prepared to do so and to be wholly amenable to that process.

 5             I'm not quite sure I understand the sort of combined process the

 6     accused is now suggesting.  But as the Court notes, we're not aware of

 7     what those documents are, so we're rather in the dark.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  What is a bit different from an ordinary Bar table

 9     motion is that in this case, we can have a witness's confirmation, albeit

10     in brief form.

11             MR. TIEGER:  Well, as the Court noted, it's one thing to confirm

12     a document, and that's more along the lines of a kind of 92 ter process,

13     documents that the witness produced himself, so that's a document from

14     the Ministry of Justice bearing my signature.  That's a rather

15     perfunctory process which often accompanies a witness's testimony, and

16     which, by the way, up to now, we've had some trouble getting into

17     evidence without a formal 92 ter process.  I'm not saying we have to

18     proceed that way, but I am just noting that that has been the case.

19             But I also note that Dr. Karadzic appears to be suggesting the

20     presentation of documents to the witness which really don't have any

21     relationship to him.  I understand he's talking about newspaper articles,

22     about general events and so on, and I don't think a simple review by the

23     witness and some sort of signal that he's familiar with the general

24     events advances the process.  I think it could be far more useful to the

25     Chamber if those documents were presented, both parties could identify

Page 4982

 1     the relevance or authenticity issues surrounding that document, and they

 2     could proceed in the fashion that has been adopted in many other cases,

 3     and I think it is quite useful so the Court knows the relevance and knows

 4     whether or not there are any authenticity issues as well.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

 6             I would like also to take this opportunity to hear from you

 7     regarding the accused's suggestion to tender parts of Mr. Mandic's

 8     testimony in Stanisic and Zupljanin pursuant to Rule 92 ter.  I take it

 9     you also received the list of pages he wished to tender in that form.

10             MR. TIEGER:  We did, Your Honour, and I, frankly, didn't give

11     thought to responding.  I understood that the Court had made a decision

12     on that, and we simply reviewed the material -- the pages identified to

13     see whether there were additional pages from those transcripts that we

14     considered should also be submitted, and we identified a handful of

15     those.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Excuse me, Mr. Tieger.

17             Did you say that the Court had made a decision on that?  What

18     decision do you refer to?

19             MR. TIEGER:  Well, I understood that the -- as I recall the

20     backdrop to this issue, the matter was raised by the accused.  We had

21     some discussion about the 92 ter process generally, which tended to focus

22     on the more classical form of reviewing the transcripts and then the

23     acknowledgment by the Chamber that this witness had been before this

24     Court very recently -- not this Court, but had been to the Tribunal very

25     recently, and that appeared to be a step which was unnecessary, but the

Page 4983

 1     Court simply invited the accused, rather than submitting the entirety of

 2     the transcript, to review it for those particular sections that he

 3     wanted.  So when we received his identification of the portions that he

 4     wanted, we reviewed the entirety of the transcripts ourselves to identify

 5     any additional pages that we would ask the Court to admit along with

 6     those.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Actually, I don't think the Chamber has made a final

 8     decision on this matter.  But I take it that you do not object to

 9     tendering those parts into evidence.

10             MR. TIEGER:  Correct, Your Honour.  Our position is that the

11     92 ter process is, of course, available, and provided that the Court is

12     satisfied that the conditions are met.  And, as I say, I think we

13     identified the only issue that appeared to be -- or the only matter that

14     appeared potentially to be at issue, and I understand the Court was

15     satisfied it was not, at least in this particular circumstance.  So we

16     certainly don't have any objection to both sides availing themselves of

17     92 ter when appropriate.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

19             The Chamber will rule on the admissibility in due course very

20     soon, Mr. Karadzic.  But when a Chamber receives as evidence some part of

21     the transcript, it is often receiving the exhibit which is associated

22     with that transcript which forms an indispensable or an inseparable part

23     of that transcript.  So are you going to tender some exhibit under that

24     regime, as associated exhibit, whether you can identify some exhibit

25     under that category?

Page 4984

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe so, yes.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  And whether we grant your suggestion or not, I think

 3     I recommend you to immediately disclose the list of documents, together

 4     with the 65 ter numbers, to the Prosecution so that they can respond to

 5     your suggestion, which does not form an inseparable, indispensable part

 6     of the transcript.

 7             There's one further matter I'd like to visit before we begin the

 8     hearing of evidence.

 9             Last week, we informed the parties informally, on Friday last

10     week, that a maximum of four hours would be permitted for

11     cross-examination of the next scheduled witness, i.e., KDZ-272 or

12     Mr. Milan Mandilovic.  The Chamber's assessment was made on the basis of

13     the criteria we have set out previously and, in particular,

14     Mr. Karadzic's own estimate of the time needed for cross-examination, the

15     Prosecution's estimate of the time needed for direct examination, the

16     witness's amalgamated statement, and the scope and subject matter of the

17     witness's anticipated evidence.  In light of that assessment, the Chamber

18     was of the view that a maximum of four hours is a reasonable time to the

19     accused's cross-examination of Mr. Mandilovic.

20             Thank you.

21             That said, we'll bring in the witness.

22             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, one more matter, if I may.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

24             MR. TIEGER:  And if I can have one second to check an issue with

25     Mr. Reid.

Page 4985

 1             Your Honour, again this is a scheduling matter, and I appreciate

 2     the Court's assistance on these issues.

 3             As the Court will recall, when we requested the projected

 4     cross-examination time, it was in connection with the scheduling of the

 5     upcoming witnesses.  The --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Who is supposed to come on Monday, the 19th?

 7             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, it's still Mr. -- we still have Mr. Mandilovic

 8     after Mr. Mandic, and then Mr. Abdel-Razek.  But the witness afterwards

 9     we indicated was going to be Mr. Mole, and the reason was we had hoped to

10     fill in the smallish slot available, that is, the limited time available

11     after Mr. Abdel-Razek, with the witness, who wouldn't have to go back and

12     forth, and so we shifted the schedule lighting so Mr. Soljevic, who was

13     projected for a longer period of time, would not be required to come back

14     and forth, and hopefully we could complete a witness.  As it turns out,

15     Mr. Mole was not available, so we need to revert back to the original

16     schedule, which has Mr. Soljevic following Mr. Abdel-Razek.  So the

17     schedule will be Mr. Mandilovic, Mr. Abdel-Razek, and then Mr. Soljevic.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you for the information.

19             Mr. Karadzic, in the meantime, when do you think you can prepare

20     the compilation of documents to be put to the witness?

21                           [The witness takes the stand]

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, most of it, especially the

23     agency news part, is something I could submit to the OTP today, although

24     my idea had been first to have my idea verified and then to see whether

25     it is admissible or not, because I do not know whether Mr. Mandic will

Page 4986

 1     leave in the meantime, whether, in other words, he will be able to

 2     examine all these documents after we have reached agreement with the OTP.

 3     I thought that Mr. Mandic could do so today and tomorrow in his spare

 4     time and to initial the documents that he's familiar with, and then the

 5     two sides could agree on what portion of these documents is admissible or

 6     not.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Before you do that, the Chamber wants to see that

 8     list of documents as soon as possible, and that should be disclosed to

 9     the Prosecution in advance as well.

10             Good afternoon, Mr. Mandic.  I hope you had a refreshing weekend

11     and you had a safe journey.

12             Mr. Tieger, did you have something?

13             MR. TIEGER:  I can raise it -- I think I understand the proposal

14     a little better, and it prompted a comment, but we can deal with that

15     once we receive a list in any event.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

17             Very well.  Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

18                           WITNESS:  MOMCILO MANDIC [Resumed]

19                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon to you, Mr. Minister.

23        A.   Good fortune to you, Mr. President.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 1D02095.  This is a

25     government document, an excerpt from instructions for the work of crisis

Page 4987

 1     staffs.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Mr. Minister, let me ask you this:  Was the government delighted

 4     at the chaos which was obtaining or was it in desperation?

 5        A.   The government was extremely worried over what was going on in

 6     the field.

 7        Q.   Namely, some experts of the OTP suggest that the crimes which

 8     were being committed in our civil war were something that the government

 9     favoured, it favoured such a course of developments, or in the very least

10     it did not exert any efforts to stop that, and those with the most

11     extreme anti-Serbian orientation actually claim that this is what the

12     government wanted.  So the question is:  If the government really had

13     wanted that, would not it have been glad at what was happening?

14        A.   The government was doing everything in its power, when all the

15     communications in the field had been severed, both road communications

16     and telecommunications, to prevent any developments that were detrimental

17     to both the Serbian and the Muslim and the Croat people there.

18        Q.   Do you remember that last time we established that the Serbian

19     crisis staffs were activated on the 4th of April, after the proclamation

20     of general mobilisation which had been declared by the Croat and Muslim

21     portion of the Presidency?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Please look at this.  This is the 1st of May, 1992 -- sorry.  No,

24     in fact, it was the 26th of April.  You were still formally in the MUP.

25     You were not yet a minister of justice.  Can you read the title and item

Page 4988

 1     1?

 2        A.   "Excerpt from the instruction for the work of the municipality

 3     crisis staffs of the Serbian people."

 4             Item 1:

 5             "In a state of war, the Crisis Staff shall take over all the

 6     prerogatives and functions of the municipal assemblies, when they are

 7     unable to convene."

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree when there is a heavy snowfall or when

 9     there are floods or when there is no heat and gas, namely, in any

10     situation which requires the intensive action of the authorities, crisis

11     staffs would be -- or were established?

12        A.   Yes.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we see the next

14     page in Serbian, and I believe it is the same page in English, which

15     starts with item 9.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Please read items 9 and 10.

18        A.   "9.  The Crisis Staff shall create conditions for the work of the

19     international peace-making and humanitarian organisations and ensure the

20     safe passage of humanitarian aid convoys to their final destinations.

21             "10.  Treat extremely humanely and in accordance with the

22     International Red Cross towards the non-combat populace and the wounded,

23     and act humanely and in accordance with the laws of the Serbian Republic

24     of Bosnia and Herzegovina towards the POWs."

25        Q.   Thank you.  Can you now also read item 13, and the rest is

Page 4989

 1     available to the participants for them to read if they so wish.

 2        A.   Item 13:

 3             "War profiteers, looting mobs and the like, are to be arrested

 4     and handed over to the investigating judicial organs of the Serbian

 5     republic."

 6        Q.   Thank you.  You are aware of these efforts of the government;

 7     right?

 8        A.   Yes.  We talked about this earlier, when I was examined here by

 9     both the Prosecutor as well as you, yourself.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             Can this document be admitted?

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D407, Your Honours.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Mr. Minister, would it be fair to say that we, at the central

16     level, had remained without anything and that we started creating our

17     state from scratch?  As they now put it, it was a green field enterprise?

18        A.   I have confirmed this many times, and when I talked about the

19     Ministry of Justice, I said that I didn't even have a pencil or paper,

20     let alone anything else.

21        Q.   Thank you.  A witness had confirmed to us here that two years

22     would have been required to set up an army, whereas we did not have a

23     witness who would have told us how much time would have been required for

24     the creation of a proper state in conditions of poverty, sanctions, war.

25     Could you say how much time is required for the setting up of a proper

Page 4990

 1     state administration?

 2        A.   In 1992, I was minister of justice for about eight months, and I

 3     did not manage to establish that ministry, and then I left that position.

 4     I mean, I didn't manage to do it fully.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  We're going to see the vacancy announcements that you

 6     had.  We'll see that later on.  You asked for people who had passed the

 7     Bar exam to apply.  Is that the way it was?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D2097, could we have that, please.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   This is a document that was created three days later.  Do we

12     now -- yes, we do have a translation.  So could you please have a look at

13     this document.  It's the government and the Ministry for Health, Social

14     Welfare, and Family Affairs.  They are sending this to all crisis staffs,

15     under the authority issued by the government.

16             Do you remember who the minister of health was?

17        A.   Dr. Dragan Kalinic.

18        Q.   Do you agree -- I do apologise to the interpreters.

19             Do you agree that Mr. Kalinic before the war was a reformist in

20     Ante Markovic's party and that he headed that club of MPs in Parliament?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that he and Dragan Cukanovic and others,

23     other officials, were in the government, although they were not members

24     of the SDS?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 4991

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Please, could you have a look at this now?  Could you

 2     read, for instance, the first paragraph and the first sentence of

 3     paragraph 1?

 4        A.   "To all regional crisis staffs.

 5             "Under the authority from the President of the Government of the

 6     Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, we are issuing the following

 7     instructions concerning humanitarian aid and actions which are being

 8     taken on the territories under the control of your staff.

 9             "1.  We ask you to provide free passage to all convoys of

10     humanitarian aid (food, clothes, medicaments, sanitary material) being

11     transported through the areas under your control, regardless of whether

12     these convoys are organised by international or domestic humanitarian

13     organisations."

14        Q.   Could you read on the same paragraph:  "That pertains to ..."

15        A.   "That pertains to all convoys, regardless of their destination of

16     the localities that can be under your control or under the control of the

17     Muslim or Croatian authorities."

18        Q.   Can you go on, number 2?

19        A.   Number 2:

20             "You are required to make it clear to all heads of medical

21     facilities on your territory, both civilian and military ones, to

22     continue treating the sick and wounded, regardless of their ethnicity and

23     political beliefs, in accordance with the basic principles of medical

24     ethics, and all patients should be given medical treatment of the same

25     quality."

Page 4992

 1        Q.   Number 3, just the first sentence?

 2        A.   Number 3:

 3             "As regards the treatment of prisoners of war, internationally

 4     established norms must be respected concerning their accommodation,

 5     nutrition, and medical treatment."

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree -- or do you remember, Minister, that

 7     the Presidency, on the 13th of June, issued a set of instructions in

 8     terms of treating POWs, and Minister Subotic drafted that?  It was my

 9     order, I signed it, but the instructions had to do with the card that he

10     provided, et cetera?

11        A.   You gave instructions as to how they should be treated, and

12     within that you ordered, inter alia, that the minister for military

13     affairs issue instructions regarding the treatment of POWs with the force

14     of decree or, rather, with the force of law, because this published in

15     the Official Gazette.  Therefore, it had the force of law.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that that order was almost unnecessary,

17     because we see that on the 27th of April, before I even became a member

18     of the Presidency, the minister of health had already taken a measure

19     along those lines and issued instructions to regional crisis staffs?

20        A.   I believe that it was necessary, because there was not sufficient

21     co-ordination between the local level and the central authorities.  At

22     that point, the government that was still being established had very poor

23     communication with the local level, and I believe that it was

24     indispensable to have something like this done, from the point of view

25     of -- well, I mean, that such a thing would come from the Presidency or

Page 4993

 1     the president of Republika Srpska.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Maybe you're right as far as the local level is

 3     concerned.  But from the point of view of the central government and

 4     central authorities, was that indispensable, because we see that they

 5     functioned along those lines even without that order and instructions

 6     having been issued?

 7        A.   At that point in time, the government took all sorts of measures

 8     in order to prevent the violation of international norms and violations

 9     of human rights.  However, since that was not sufficient, you also took

10     certain measures from the domain of your own powers.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             Can this be admitted into evidence?

13             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Mandic, this document was an instruction, signed

14     by the minister of health and social welfare, to the regional crisis

15     headquarters, wasn't it?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Why, then, was it written in English at the time?  I

18     see the original was in English.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I be of assistance?  There is

20     an original in Serbian too.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Let's hear from the witness first.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't even look at this English

23     version.  However, I assumed that there was an original in Serbian.  I

24     mean, Dr. Kalinic does speak English, but I think that all documents of

25     the government were written in the Serbian language, without a single

Page 4994

 1     exception.  You will have to see, with Mr. Kalinic, why he did this in

 2     English.  I imagine it was for the benefit of international factors,

 3     international humanitarian organisations, who were already moving about

 4     Bosnia-Herzegovina that was at war.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 6             Mr. Karadzic.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   May I ask you, Minister, whether any humanitarian organisation

 9     could have had this on them if they were moving about in the field, and

10     if they were to come across certain obstacles, could they have this as a

11     kind of pass or something?

12        A.   I don't know whether they knew this -- that they used this

13     document as a pass.  I know that you issued an order to the police and

14     judiciary and military organs to allow unhindered passage to all

15     international and local humanitarian organisations in the territory that

16     was under Serb control at that time.  There was an order of yours to that

17     effect.

18        Q.   Do you remember that it exists both in an English version and in

19     a Serbian version, and that the English version was being carried around

20     by these humanitarians?  Do you remember that?

21        A.   No.  No, Mr. President, I just saw these Serbian versions at

22     government meetings and in the Official Gazette, and in other trials when

23     I testified; Stanisic, Krajisnik.

24        Q.   Thank you.  If I were to tell you that they asked me not to put a

25     date so that no one could say, at local level, that it was out of date or

Page 4995

 1     something, would you be surprised?

 2        A.   Well, that is a matter to be agreed upon, but I remember full

 3     well that the government and the central authorities of Republika Srpska

 4     were trying to find the best possible ways to ensure unhindered passage

 5     to all humanitarian organisations held -- in territories held by the

 6     Serbs.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             Can this be admitted?

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  It will be Exhibit D408.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Minister, you're a lawyer, a judge.  You are familiar with the

13     Constitution and legislation.  Do you agree that according to our

14     Constitution, the president did not have to attend Assembly sessions at

15     all, unless he is presenting an expose of his own or if he is invited?

16        A.   It is MPs and the president of the Assembly that have to attend

17     Assembly meetings.  Certain representatives of the executive or from the

18     Presidency may attend if the subjects dealt with -- fall within the scope

19     of their own work or if they're invited by the MPs.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We did not hear

21     Mr. Karadzic's question.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Put a pause before you start answering the question.

23     Thank you.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 156, that's the number of

25     the document.

Page 4996

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Sorry.  This is a record of the

 3     session of the National Security Council and the Government of the

 4     Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, held on the 10th of May.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Minister, let me ask you:  Do you recall that at the time, all

 7     the way up until the 12th of May, the Assembly was not in a position to

 8     meet?

 9        A.   Yes.  Until there was a corridor in place in Posavina, it was

10     practically impossible to move from Western to Eastern Herzegovina or

11     from Central Bosnia to Eastern Bosnia.  There were obstacles on the

12     roads, and all other links of communication were extremely difficult.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that after Assembly life came into

14     being, the National Security Council practically ceased to exist and

15     function?

16        A.   As for this National Security Council, I know very little about

17     it.  I think that it is actually something that goes beyond the

18     Constitution.  This was a provisional organ before the Presidency was

19     established, and perhaps even the Assembly too.  I really don't know what

20     the role of this council was.

21        Q.   Thank you.  However, you do recall that the Assembly and the

22     president can establish advisory bodies and that that is in line with the

23     Constitution?

24        A.   Yes.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 4997

 1             Can we now have the second page.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Do you agree, Minister, that this council was supposed to support

 4     the government until proper Assembly life started, and that after that,

 5     the government worked with the Assembly?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  I'd like to draw your attention to paragraph 7,

 8     subparagraph A.  Could you please read that?  As for all the participants

 9     in these proceedings, they have the entire document made available to

10     them.

11        A.   "7.  It was decided to prepare and propose to the Assembly that

12     it adopt the following:"

13             Which subparagraph did you want?

14        Q.   A.

15        A.   Subparagraph A:

16             "A list of laws which should be adopted within three months.

17     These laws secure the functioning of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

18     Herzegovina."

19        Q.   Thank you.  Paragraph 8, please.

20        A.   Paragraph 8:

21             "Appropriate ministers should stand in for directors of public

22     funds before they are appointed."

23             No, I beg your pardon.  Number 8 reads as follows:

24             "The State Commission for the Exchange of Prisoners of War and

25     the Dead was appointed."

Page 4998

 1        Q.   Thank you.  So that was the 8th, and then it was confirmed on the

 2     10th; right?

 3             Can we have page 3 now.

 4             You were elected two days later, you became a member of the

 5     government?

 6        A.   Yes, the 12th of May, at the session of the Assembly of the Serb

 7     People in Banja Luka.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Could I ask you to read subparagraph F?

 9        A.   "F.  To take necessary measures to bring together professionals

10     and ensure conditions for the work of state and judicial organs."

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So a month after the outbreak of

12     the war, there weren't enough trained personnel, and one of the items on

13     the agenda is to try to find appropriate personnel.  And we'll see later

14     on in the media that all persons who had passed the Bar examination were

15     called upon to report.  Thank you.

16             So could this be admitted, please?

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D409, Your Honours.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have 65 ter 162, please.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Could I please ask you to tell us what this is all about?  What

22     is this?

23        A.   Minutes from the government meeting held on the 24th of May,

24     1992.

25        Q.   Do you not find it striking that there is no more

Page 4999

 1     National Security Council?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             Can we have page 2.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   2.1, can you read that sentence, and can you interpret it for us?

 7        A.   2.1:

 8             "It has been determined that the Ministry of the Interior should

 9     prepare a comprehensive analysis for the government regarding the

10     security situation and the state of law and order in the Serbian Republic

11     of Bosnia-Herzegovina."

12        Q.   Could you please go on?

13        A.   "The question of crime should be dealt with, in particular, as

14     well as the protection of private and social property, mistreatment of

15     citizens of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, as well as

16     other questions that are important as regards the status of people in the

17     Serb republic."

18        Q.   Paragraph 3 now, could you read that?

19        A.   Paragraph 3:

20             "It was agreed --"

21        Q.   3, and then subparagraph 3 as well.

22        A.   3(3):

23             "It was concluded that the overall situation in the republic

24     should be recorded as soon as possible.  To that end, groups of ministers

25     would be formed which would have direct insight in various municipalities

Page 5000

 1     and would prepare reports and suggest measures to be undertaken."

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Minister, does that mean that the government, on the

 3     24th of May, did not have insight into what was going on in the territory

 4     of Republika Srpska?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7             Can this be admitted?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D410, Your Honours.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   I should now like to ask you about something else, an event that

12     you attended to.

13             Do you remember that on the 12th of May, I was elected to the

14     Presidency and to the position of president of the Presidency of the

15     Serbian Republic of the B and H?

16        A.   Yes, and it was published in the Official Gazette of the Serbian

17     People.

18        Q.   Do you remember that the Police Academy in Banja Luka staged a

19     ceremony that we attended on the 13th of May?

20        A.   On the 13th -- actually, the 13th of May was the Police Day for

21     50 years in the former Yugoslavia, and the Serbs were the only ones who

22     kept fostering that tradition and celebrating the 13th of May.  And there

23     was a central show, a central event, in the Police Academy in Banja Luka.

24        Q.   Mr. Minister, someone has suggested to the OTP that we intended

25     to part ways with the Muslims living in the territories that the Serbs

Page 5001

 1     were claiming as theirs.  We were always very explicit.  We said that if

 2     Bosnia was to leave the joint state, we wanted to part from the majority

 3     parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina in order to avoid what the Muslims wished

 4     to avoid in Yugoslavia; namely, that position of a minority.  Is that

 5     right?

 6        A.   That was the proposal of the international community, of

 7     Cutileiro's Plan.  He actually -- he actually proposed this in order to

 8     avoid out-voting in all institutions at all government levels in Bosnia

 9     and Herzegovina.  According to Cutileiro's Plan, the Lisbon Agreement and

10     the Sarajevo Agreement, there should have been three entities in one

11     state.  And initially the Serb and the Muslim and the Croat sides all

12     agreed to that, but subsequently, at someone's instructions, the Serbs

13     remained -- adhered to this agreement, but the Croats and Muslims didn't.

14        Q.   Were you at this event in Banja Luka?

15        A.   Yes, because my brother was a director there.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17             Can we now see an insert -- a piece of footage from that event at

18     the academy on the 13th of May?

19                           [Video-clip played]

20             JUDGE KWON:  Can we stop there?  We're supposed to hear the

21     interpretation, based upon this circulated document, so shall we begin

22     again?  I take it this document was --

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see 2090.  That is the

24     transcript of the part that we're interested in.

25                           [Video-clip played]

Page 5002

 1             JUDGE KWON:  I have to ask the interpreters whether they have

 2     been provided with this translation.

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Yes, Your Honour, we have, but I cannot hear

 4     anything.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There is a translation.  I have it

 6     here.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters also have the translation.  It

 8     is just that we cannot follow the footage, because I cannot hear a single

 9     word.

10             JUDGE KWON:  I think I heard some Serbian in the video-clip, but

11     the interpreters said that they didn't hear anything from this footage.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Neither can I, neither can I.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Do you remember, Mr. Minister, that at this event there were

15     Muslims and Croats, and that I welcomed that fact, and that my welcoming

16     of that fact was responded to by applause on the part of all present?

17        A.   Yes.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now we should like to see that and

19     to hear that.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Let's give it a try again.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that perhaps they will be

22     able to fix it after the break.  Anyway, I owe you this video-clip, and

23     then after the break, when it has been dealt with, we shall submit it.

24             There is one page of the speech which I delivered, where I

25     congratulate the Muslims and the Croats, and I say that we are not in

Page 5003

 1     conflict with Muslims and Croats, but only with the militant leaderships

 2     of the two communities.

 3             Can we now have 65 ter 165.  And after the break, we shall be

 4     satisfied that this is so and see the video-clip itself.  65 ter 165.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  I think Sanction should stop.  Yes.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, this is the document.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Do you remember, Mr. Minister, that the government was not too

 9     happy and exactly satisfied with the crisis staffs?

10        A.   Yes.  And as far as I can recall, there was an initiative

11     launched by the government for them to be abolished; the crisis staffs,

12     namely.

13        Q.   Was this because they were unable to exercise power and the

14     government had no way of controlling them?

15        A.   Yes.  In the majority of cases, they were unable to govern the

16     situation in the field, to control the situation in the field, or they

17     did wrongly what they had been tasked to do.

18        Q.   Please take a look at this document, and tell us, was it the case

19     that on the 31st of May, the government was abolishing the crisis staffs;

20     right?  This is the 31st of May; right?

21        A.   Yes, the 17th Session.

22        Q.   Item 1(b) is a decision on the setting up of War Presidencies in

23     the municipalities; is that so?

24        A.   Yes, and that corresponds to what I recollect; namely, that the

25     government proposed that municipal crisis staffs should be dismantled.

Page 5004

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             Can we now see page 2.  I believe it is page 2 in the English

 3     version as well.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Article 4, can you read that?

 6        A.   Article 4 -- in Article 4:

 7             "Add a new third paragraph which were foresee that the republican

 8     commissioner can be authorised for a number of municipalities according

 9     to, if so possible, the organisation of the Army of the Serbian

10     Republic."

11        Q.   The next one, the next paragraph?

12        A.   "Add a new article after Article 4, the fifth article, which

13     would foresee the abolishment of crisis staffs in municipalities with the

14     setting up of a War Presidency."

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             Can we see the next page?

17             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, Mr. Karadzic.

18             Could you draw our attention to the passage which deals with the

19     dismantling of municipal crisis staffs?  I don't think I saw that

20     passage.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that is directly

22     above "AD-2" or "Re. 2."

23             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Mandic.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the following page,

25     please.

Page 5005

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Item 15, can you please read the second paragraph?  In English,

 3     it is also the next page -- actually, the page with "Item 15" on it.

 4     Another page, please.  Yes, and yet another page.  In English, it is on

 5     the top of the page, and here it is 15, item 15, paragraph 2.

 6        A.   Paragraph 2:

 7             "Regarding this issue, it has been established that the

 8     government is not sufficiently informed about issues relevant to its

 9     work, in particular, the situation on the front.  It has been concluded

10     that the government must be regularly informed about said issues through

11     the Ministry of Defence, the Main Staff, and the Ministry of the Interior

12     in order to be able to, within its rights and powers, engage on the

13     formulation of policy and adoption of positions, coming up with

14     appropriate solutions and their realisation."

15        Q.   Is this yet more proof that the government is groping in the

16     dark, as it were, and that it is unable to control -- to manage

17     processes?

18        A.   Yes.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             Can this be admitted?

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D411, Your Honours.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see 1D2098.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Here, we see "Current Issues," item 17:

Page 5006

 1             [In English] "It has been agreed that Mr. Subic, the husband of

 2     Mrs. Rabija Subic, should accompany the humanitarian aid convoy."

 3             Can you tell the Chamber, what was -- what is Rabija Subic by

 4     ethnicity?

 5        A.   Of Muslim ethnicity.

 6        Q.   One witness actually said that Rabija Subic was a Serbian

 7     nationalist.  Would you agree that this was a modern Muslim woman of a

 8     pro-European and pro-Yugoslav orientation?

 9        A.   Yes, the majority of Muslims had been who lived in

10     Bosnia-Herzegovina up to this war.

11        Q.   Do you agree that she's married to Mlade [phoen] Subic, who is

12     named after a Croatian king and who comes from an eminent Croatian

13     family?

14        A.   I don't know that, Mr. President.

15        Q.   But Mlade Subic, this Croat also was a pro-Yugoslav -- of a

16     pro-Yugoslav and pro-European orientation.  Do you agree that

17     Rabija Subic was the president of the --

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Excuse me.  The interpreter did not hear the

19     end of Mr. Karadzic's question, previous question.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, interpreters noted that they didn't

21     hear the end of your last question.

22             But, by the way, are you dealing with this document which is

23     before us?

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, Mr. and Mrs. Subic were in the

25     previous document, and I just noticed, and I wished Mr. Mandic to tell us

Page 5007

 1     that Rabija Subic was not at all any kind of a Serbian nationalist, and

 2     that the expert witness who said so actually misinterpreted things.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Mr. Minister, can you take a look at this supplement to the

 5     decision, which I signed on the 31st of May, 1992, amendment on the

 6     establishment, seat, and jurisdiction of military courts and military

 7     prosecutors' offices.  Is that so?

 8        A.   As we have said, so far there was a military judiciary and a

 9     civilian judiciary.  This is an addition to an existing document.  It was

10     a decision.  It was amended on the 31st of May; namely, the decision on

11     the establishment, seat, and jurisdiction of military courts and military

12     prosecutorial offices.  And I believe that it refers to the

13     Sarajevo Romanija Corps and the seat of the prosecutorial office attached

14     to that corps.

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the speakers please not overlap.  The

16     interpreter is unable to follow.  I didn't hear Mr. Karadzic's question

17     again.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  You should note the interpreter's

19     note again.  Because of your overlapping, the interpreters couldn't

20     follow you at all.

21             Could you repeat your last question?

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   The question was:  Do you remember that initially both the courts

24     and the prosecutors' offices were attached to strategic groups, namely,

25     to the corps and the Main Staff?

Page 5008

 1        A.   To my knowledge, and I was versed in the subject-matter, every

 2     corps had its own prosecutors' office and its own judiciary, and the

 3     supreme military court and the leadership of the military judiciary was

 4     attached to the Main Staff in Han Pijesak.

 5        Q.   Do you agree or do you remember that later I removed the courts

 6     to the Ministry of Defence, while leaving the prosecutorial offices in

 7     the army, and that I had some complaints regarding that move of mine?

 8        A.   At the proposal of the minister of defence, you did so, and there

 9     was a falling-out between you and the chief of the General Staff,

10     Mr. Ratko Mladic, on that occasion and in that connection.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             Can this document be admitted?

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D412, Your Honours.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see 65 ter 167 now, please.

16             Yes, we have it.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Can you look at this, please.  It's the 19th Session of the

19     government, held on the 2nd of June, 1992; is that correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Please read item 1, up to "it was concluded that ..."

22        A.   "1.  The government has considered current issues in the work of

23     the government and the ministries.

24             "It has been concluded that the necessary measures for the

25     rehabilitation of the complete social and economic life everywhere on the

Page 5009

 1     territory of the republic should be introduced and undertaken even faster

 2     than now.

 3             "The need to revive economic activities has been especially

 4     emphasised.  With regard to that, the importance of establishing the road

 5     network that would connect all the regions of the republic has been

 6     emphasised again, with a special emphasis on the basic corridors

 7     connecting the Bosnian Krajina to Semberija, SAO Romanija, and

 8     East Herzegovina to Semberija," and so on.

 9        Q.   You can skip the next part and read:  "It was concluded ..."

10        A.   "It was concluded that all the ministries should speed up the

11     drafting and propose the laws from their portfolios that would provide

12     functioning of the economy, the government, and would ensure the rule of

13     law."

14        Q.   And the next passage?

15        A.   "Instances of robberies or looting of even the Serbian people

16     have been emphasised as a particular problem.  It has, therefore, been

17     pointed out that all the measures to prevent that should be undertaken."

18        Q.   And the last paragraph?

19        A.   "The government once again --"

20        Q.   It's the next page in English.

21        A.   "The government once again concluded that it is not informed

22     about current political and military issues and about the situation in

23     the republic."

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             Can we have the next page in Serbian.

Page 5010

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Do you agree that this shows that the government was only issuing

 3     documents, with no way of implementing them?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   I was speaking metaphorically.  I thought that the government was

 6     in a vacuum.

 7        A.   Well, I wouldn't agree with that.

 8        Q.   What about the existence of road and telegraph communications?

 9        A.   I mentioned that at the beginning, when I said that at the

10     beginning of the war, all the roads in Bosnia and Herzegovina were

11     blocked, obstructed, those held -- those in parts of Bosnia and

12     Herzegovina held by the Serbs as well as those held by the Muslims or the

13     Croats.

14        Q.   Can you look at the second paragraph in Serbian:  "It was

15     concluded that ..."

16        A.   "It was concluded that the government should be informed on these

17     issues every day and that this should be the first item on the agenda.

18             "To make this possible, there has to be constant direct contact

19     with the Main Staff, through the prime minister and the minister of

20     defence, and a quality communications system between the state organs and

21     the military commander should be provided.

22             "All this entails examination of the current locations of the

23     highest government bodies and the military command."

24        Q.   And the next?

25        A.   "The problem of the lack of army officers has been brought up at

Page 5011

 1     the meeting.  This is one of the most important and urgent problems the

 2     government should deal with."

 3        Q.   Can I ask you to describe to Their Honours and everybody in the

 4     courtroom what the premises of the government organs at Kikinda, Pale,

 5     and other places looked like?

 6        A.   In my testimony so far, I said something that is confirmed by

 7     these minutes.  The ministers were informed only from the prime minister

 8     about events on the ground, and he received his information either from

 9     the Main Staff or other people.  And when the war broke out, the

10     government was located on temporary premises.  The name of the building

11     was Kikinda.  This was on the outskirts of Pale.  And then some 10 or 15

12     kilometres away, in Hotel Bistrica at Jahorina.  This hotel had been

13     built for the Olympic Games in 1984.  We did not have the proper

14     conditions for our work in that hotel.  For example, my ministry had only

15     two hotel rooms at its disposal.  We transformed these two hotel rooms

16     into offices.  We had an old, used Golf car and five or six employees.

17             I spoke more than once about how we started collecting paper and

18     pencils in order to draft bills for the Assembly.  When the Assembly met,

19     it verified these documents about the appointments of judges and all the

20     other documents and the bills that were passed at the Assembly as laws.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May we have 1D2084, and then we'll

22     go back to this -- and then we'll tender both documents at the same time.

23     1D2084.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   This is your document, Mr. Minister.  Will you please tell us

Page 5012

 1     about it?

 2        A.   The Ministry of Justice, to the MUP of Republika Srpska.  It's a

 3     request for the use of motor vehicles:

 4             "In order to establish the legal system in Republika Srpska as

 5     successfully as possible, the Ministry of Justice is duty-bound to

 6     contact with the judicial organs on the ground every day.  For this, it

 7     needs the proper equipment, primarily motor vehicles.  Currently, the

 8     Ministry of Justice has only one motor vehicle, which is insufficient for

 9     it to carry out its work ..."

10             Can we scroll down, please?

11             " ... which is inefficient for it to carry out the jobs and tasks

12     falling within the purview of this organ.

13             "In connection with this, we ask you to provide us and allow us

14     to use three cars, an Audi-type car and two Golf cars.  We also ask you

15     to give us an all-terrain vehicle for our use."

16        Q.   And the ministry is asking the MUP of Republika Srpska for this;

17     is that correct?

18        A.   Yes.  As I said at the outset, we only had an old Golf.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May this document be admitted into

20     evidence, and then we can go back to the previous document.

21             JUDGE KWON:  This will be marked for identification, pending

22     translation.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D413, Your Honours.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go back to 65 ter 167, the

25     previous document, to finish with it.

Page 5013

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Minister, while we are waiting for it to come up, will you tell

 3     us whether couriers were used, runners, because of the lack of telephone

 4     communications?

 5        A.   Well, to avoid repetition, the government or the Ministry of

 6     Justice had no material assets, no equipment or funds.  We had to start

 7     from scratch.

 8        Q.   Let's look at page 2 of this document.  Everything you read out

 9     here implies the following:  Was this the basis for the extended sessions

10     of the Presidency, to which I invited the prime minister and the

11     president of the Assembly so that they could pass on the information and

12     defend their standpoints?

13        A.   I don't know the reasons, but I know that the prime minister

14     attended the Presidency sessions and that he informed the Cabinet of what

15     passed there.

16        Q.   And can you please read where it says:  "The government drew

17     attention to the problem ...," just before "AD-2"?

18        A.   "The government drew attention to the problem of the information

19     flow among the regions.  The Ministry of Traffic and Communications has

20     been tasked with solving this problem as fast as possible."

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             May this document be admitted into evidence?

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D414, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE KWON:  If it is convenient, Mr. Karadzic, we'll take a

Page 5014

 1     break.

 2             We'll resume at 4.00.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 3.36 p.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 4.04 p.m.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 6             THE ACCUSED:  Thank you.

 7             [Interpretation] May we have 168, 65 ter 168.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Minister, these are minutes from the government session of the

10     3rd of June.  How often did the government meet?

11        A.   The government met on a daily basis, if possible; very often.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Now, let's see what it says here.

13             The 3rd of June, the government had a session, just the

14     government; is that right?

15        A.   Yes.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May we have the next page, please

17     in English as well, where it says "AD-1," the first paragraph.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Could you please read that?

20        A.   "The prime minister --"

21        Q.   Excuse me, we're waiting for the English.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Carry on.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

24             "The prime minister informed the members of the Cabinet about the

25     current issues of the security situation in the republic."

Page 5015

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Mr. Minister, is this what you were referring to when you said

 3     that the prime minister informed the members of the Cabinet about what he

 4     had learned from other government organs?

 5        A.   Yes.  I won't repeat what I said.  The answer is yes.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at the next page,

 7     please.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Can you please describe the procedure here?  It says here:

10             "It was concluded that ..."

11             It's the third from the bottom.

12        A.   Yes.

13             "To start the procedure of establishing war crimes, and this

14     should be done by the War Crimes Commission established by the

15     government," and of another body.

16        Q.   We discussed the Documentation Centre, headed by a man of

17     letters.  So was it clear that this body was not conducting

18     investigations, but simply keeping the documents?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Well, war crimes investigated by the regular organs, the Ministry

21     of the Interior and the Commission for War Crimes established by the

22     government?

23        A.   Yes, and that is a conclusion reached at this government session.

24        Q.   And is this commission here being tasked only with war crimes

25     against Serbs or is it also tasked with dealing with war crimes committed

Page 5016

 1     by Serbs against others?

 2        A.   Well, it doesn't say here.  It just says "war crimes," so this is

 3     understood.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I don't have time to go

 5     through the rest of the document, but the document is at the disposal of

 6     all parties in full.

 7             May it be admitted into evidence?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Just to check the accuracy of the

 9     interpretation, can I see the -- can we see the first page -- the

10     previous page of this document.

11             Could you read the first sentence in the item "Re. 1,"

12     Mr. Mandic?

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Then the page has to be brought

14     back in the Serbian as well.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "The president of the

16     government --" or "the prime minister informed the members of the Cabinet

17     on the current issues concerning the security situation in the republic."

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Mandic.

19             THE ACCUSED: [In English] It should have been "prime minister has

20     informed members of [indiscernible] government."

21             JUDGE KWON:  We understood, Mr. Karadzic.  That will be admitted.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D415, Your Honour.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 65 ter 11244, 65 ter

24     11244.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 5017

 1        Q.   Minister, do you remember that as early as April, the government

 2     prohibited any buying or selling of real estate?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   So let's have a look at this document, which shows that the

 5     Crisis Staff, or the War Presidency at Ilidza, asked for clarification

 6     from the government.  So can you explain to us what the government's

 7     response was to the Municipal Assembly of Ilidza?

 8        A.   "To the Municipal Assembly of Ilidza.

 9             "Hereby we inform you that the Government of the Serbian Republic

10     of Bosnia-Herzegovina has reviewed your letter regarding occupancy of

11     deserted houses and apartments.

12             "The government considers that citizens whose apartments or

13     houses have been destroyed may obtain only temporary permission to move

14     into deserted houses or apartments.  The government will draw up a

15     proposal for a special regulation, based on objective criteria, to find a

16     permanent solution to the issue of providing for citizens whose houses or

17     apartments have been destroyed."

18        Q.   Do you agree that in this way, the government is acting to

19     prevent the misuse of abandoned property?

20        A.   Yes.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             May this document be admitted into evidence?

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D416, Your Honours.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 5018

 1             May we now have 1D2074.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   And while we're waiting for it, I'll ask you the following:

 4     Minister, would I be correct in saying that we always counted on Muslims

 5     and Croats living among us, and that they would be proportionately

 6     represented in our government bodies -- 1D20074, yes, yes, that's it --

 7     and that Muslims and Croats would be proportionately represented in our

 8     authorities, just as Serbs should be proportionally represented in the

 9     government bodies of Muslim and Bosnian areas?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   In your ministry, the process of appointing judges and

12     prosecutors, was it conducted in such a way that candidates would be

13     proposed by people on the ground, and you would bring this to the

14     Assembly or to me if the Assembly was unable to meet?

15        A.   We, in the Ministry of Justice, asked the regional centres, and

16     I think there's a letter in the documentation of the OTP or of this

17     honourable Court, to nominate candidates meeting the formal and legal

18     requirements, and to inform us of the ethnic make-up of the regional

19     municipality from which the candidates came, and that's what they did.

20        Q.   Can you describe this document sent to you by the SAO of

21     Semberija and Majevica, the Assembly of the Municipality of Bijeljina?

22        A.   This is the delivery -- a delivery of the proposal of candidates

23     for judicial bodies in the territory of the municipality of Bijeljina.

24        Q.   What was the date?

25        A.   The 5th of June, 1992, less than a month after my appointment,

Page 5019

 1     and for the Basic Court in Bijeljina, the person nominated as president

 2     of the Court is Judge Veselin Londrovic, and as judges, Vesna Stevanovic,

 3     Mileva Lazarevic, Vera Medan, Dragomir Zivanovic.

 4        Q.   Can you just read out the names of those who are not Serbs?

 5        A.   Just a moment, Mr. President.  Alma Salihbegovic,

 6     Alida Nadj-Madjarac, Muhamed Gruhonjic, and Cviko Adamovic, all these

 7     were non-Serbs.

 8        Q.   All right.  What number is Cviko Adamovic?

 9        A.   Number 10.

10        Q.   I know that Zvizdic was later appointed, but his name was crossed

11     out here.  Could you tell us -- could you read out who the candidates for

12     prosecutors were?

13        A.   Milosevic, Nadezda, in Bijeljina.  And the deputies:

14     Dragica Ristic; Vinka Musladin; and Smail Salihbegovic.  Dragica is a

15     Serb, and Vinka is a Croat, and Smail is a Muslim.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17             Can this document be admitted?

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Actually, this represented the position of the local authorities

20     that are following your instructions regarding proportionate

21     representation; right?

22        A.   In most regions, in most local communities, there wasn't any

23     particular resistance.  But as you know, Mr. President, in some there

24     were -- there was quite a bit of resistance where representatives of

25     certain local organisations were opposed to this.

Page 5020

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  This will be Exhibit D417.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             1D2029, could we have that, please.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Let us see what happened afterwards.  Now, your ministry collects

 7     these proposals and send them to the Assembly, or, rather, the president

 8     of the republic if the Assembly cannot meet; right?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Article 81, paragraph 2 of the Constitution, does it not read

11     that if the Assembly cannot meet, the Presidency or the president of the

12     republic passes a decision, and the MPs then have to confirm it at their

13     next session?  If they violated the Constitution, then they have to

14     resign?

15        A.   Yes.  That is Article 81, paragraph 3 of the Constitution.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Can you read out here who was appointed judge?

17        A.   Among those that we mentioned a moment ago, Dadj-Madjarac, that

18     is, and Zvizdic, Alisa.

19        Q.   Alija?

20        A.   It's barely legible.

21        Q.   Alija Zvizdic, that is the Basic Court in Bijeljina, according to

22     the original proposal; right?

23        A.   Yes.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page, please.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 5021

 1        Q.   Actually, could you indicate to the Trial Chamber what this is

 2     that we are going through?

 3        A.   These are parts of the Official Gazette of the Serb People.  It

 4     is the Official Gazette -- it is the Official Gazette of the Parliament,

 5     or, rather, these are the decisions with the force of law, all the

 6     decisions that are made by the Assembly, the Presidency, and the

 7     government, and other state organs within their own provinces of work.

 8        Q.   And they enter into force once they're published in the

 9     Official Gazette; right?

10        A.   Basically, eight days after they're published in the

11     Official Gazette, unless stated otherwise.

12        Q.   Thank you.  This is the same number, number 10, dated the 30th of

13     June.  Who was appointed in judge in Bijeljina?

14        A.   Selihbegovic, Alija.

15        Q.   I think it says "Alma."

16        A.   Sorry, my copy is barely legible and I couldn't really see.

17     Alma, yes, Alma.

18        Q.   What is Alma, in terms of ethnicity?

19        A.   She is a Muslim.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             Can we have the next page.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Can you tell us about Trebinje, the Basic Court in Trebinje?  Who

24     was appointed there?  Actually, I can read it out, if you want.

25        A.   I'll try, Mr. President.

Page 5022

 1             Maric, Miroslav, president.  And judges are Ljiljana Simovic,

 2     Rajko Kozjak, Milan Bosic --

 3        Q.   They're Serbs; right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Next two?

 6        A.   Ehliman Fetahagic.

 7        Q.   Ehliman?

 8        A.   And Zijad Campara.

 9        Q.   What are they, in terms of ethnicity?

10        A.   Muslims.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             Can we have the next page, please.  The next page.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Was Karabeglic, Frano, appointed judge in the Higher Court in

15     Trebinje?

16        A.   Franjo has got to be a Croat.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             Can we have the third page after this one; that is to say, we

19     skipped two and then we move on to the third one after this.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   All right.  This is a decision of the election of judges of the

22     Higher Court in Banja Luka.

23             Now could we have the next page in English as well, please.

24             Minister, can you tell us who it was that was elected judge of

25     the Higher Court in Banja Luka?  Who are they; Kresimir, et cetera?

Page 5023

 1        A.   Kresimir, Djukic, is a Croat.  Svjetlana Djordjevic Suput, Serb.

 2     Branislav Kosic, Serb.  Kovacek, Berislav, Croat.  Kotlo, Suada, Muslim.

 3     Zehra Kerenovic, Muslim.  Asim Krupic, Muslim.  Strahinja Djurkovic,

 4     Serb.  Jakl --

 5        Q.   Stanislav?

 6        A.   Stanislav, a Croat.  Jeremic, Dusko, a Serb.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Can we just scroll down a bit.  Adem Medic.  Is

 8     Adem Medic a Muslim?

 9        A.   Yes.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             Can we have page 2, the second half.  Actually, the second half

12     of this same page.  So, yes, we'd like to see a different column.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   This is Ruzica Topic, what is she by ethnicity?

15        A.   She's a Croat.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Zinaida Kadic, what about her?

17        A.   Muslim ethnicity.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             Can we have the next page in Serbian, and probably in English

20     too.  The next page in Serbian and -- I see.

21             Could we scroll down a bit, the Serbian page.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Who was appointed deputy prosecutor?

24        A.   Ibrahim Alagic.

25        Q.   Is he a Muslim?

Page 5024

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             Can this document be admitted?

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D418, Your Honour.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have -- actually, I beg

 7     your pardon.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Do we agree that I signed all of this, instead of the Assembly,

10     at your proposal; is that right?

11        A.   Yes, and for the most part these proposals of mine, along with

12     your signatures -- or, rather, the decisions you made and signed, the

13     Assembly basically passed these decisions.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 1D3030

15     [as interpreted].  2030, 1D2030.  Thank you.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Can you give us your comment that relates to Vinka Musladin?

18        A.   She was appointed deputy prosecutor in Bijeljina.

19        Q.   And that is in accordance with the list that was proposed at

20     local level?

21        A.   Yes.  She is an ethnic Croat.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             Can we now have the second column of this same page.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Can you give us your comment in this regard, the situation in

Page 5025

 1     Bijeljina?

 2        A.   Salihbegovic, Osman -- Smail, rather, Smail.

 3        Q.   Salihbegovic, Smail; right?

 4        A.   Yes.  Smajl Salihbegovic was appointed deputy public prosecutor

 5     in Bijeljina.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7             Can we now scroll down a bit.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Gluhonjic, Muhamed is appointed

 9     judge of the Basic Court in Bijeljina.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             Can this be admitted?

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D419, Your Honours.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Can I ask you, Minister, whether this number basically

16     corresponds to the number of Muslims and Croats in Bijeljina?  There were

17     very few of them; right?

18        A.   This is the pre-war situation.  That is the ratio before the war,

19     yes.

20        Q.   Although the war had been on for three months or whatever, you

21     continue with these proposals that reflect the ethnic composition of the

22     population?

23        A.   The pre-war composition or structure, yes.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D2063, could we have that, please.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 5026

 1        Q.   Is this the Official Gazette of the Serb People in

 2     Bosnia-Herzegovina, dated the 13th of July?  Actually, if that was the

 3     10th of June and then the 30th of June and now it's the 13th of July,

 4     that means that it's two weeks after that last one?

 5        A.   Yes, a bit more than two weeks.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have a look at page 18

 7     of this document.

 8             Can we scroll down a bit.  Can we look at the middle of the

 9     second paragraph.  We're interested in Trebinje.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   As far as I can see, this confirms the appointment of

12     Ehliman Fetahagic and Zijad Campara; is that right?

13        A.   Yes, yes.  This is was published in the Official Gazette of the

14     Serb People.

15        Q.   All this took place while I was still signing all of these

16     documents, while the Assembly was not meeting?

17        A.   Yes.  That is what you're supposed to do on the basis of the

18     Constitution when there is an imminent threat of war.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             Can this document be admitted?

21             JUDGE KWON:  We'll mark it for identification.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D420, Your Honours.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24             1D2061, please.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 5027

 1        Q.   Minister, now I am not dealing with things in strictly

 2     chronological order.  I would like to focus on the subject of the

 3     judicial system, and you would be the best person to ask, as far as 1992

 4     is concerned, because you're the person who sent me these proposals;

 5     right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Is this the Official Gazette dated the 10th of August, 1992?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we briefly have page 5 to

10     identify what it is, and then page 6, please.  The second half, fine,

11     that will do.  No, one page ahead.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   This is what we are interested in, the decision on the election

14     of judges of the Higher Court in Banja Luka.

15             Could you scroll up a bit so that the minister can see 391 in its

16     entirety.

17             Do you remember this?

18        A.   Yes.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page, please.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   It's the 10th of August again, and are the decisions on the

22     election of:  Djukic, Kresimir, a Croat; Berislav Kovacek, a Croat; Suada

23     Kotlo, a Muslim; Zehra Kerenovic, a Muslim; Asim Krupic, a Muslim; and

24     Medic, Adem, a Muslim?  Are they reconfirmed again, just like

25     Zinaida Kadic; are they reconfirmed as judges of the High Court of

Page 5028

 1     Banja Luka?

 2        A.   Ruzica Topic as well, yes.

 3        Q.   Ruzica Topic is a Croat lady?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             Can we have the next page of this document.  Can we just scroll

 7     down a bit.  That's fine.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Can you cast a glance at these deputy public prosecutors in

10     Banja Luka, including Alagic, Ibrahim?  I don't know about the rest,

11     whether they're all Serbs, but Ibrahim Alagic is a Muslim; right?

12        A.   Yes.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             Can this document be admitted?

15             JUDGE KWON:  We'll mark it for identification, again, pending

16     translation.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D421, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE KWON:  But we'll translate only the part that was referred

19     to.  Are you fine with this, Mr. Tieger?  We don't have to translate all

20     the other parts in the Official Gazette?

21             MR. TIEGER:  I think that would be unduly burdensome,

22     Your Honour.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  That would apply to the Official Gazette

24     we dealt with previously?

25             MR. TIEGER:  I answered, I guess, in the abstract, Your Honour.

Page 5029

 1     But I understand we may have a complete translation for the document you

 2     were referring to, so perhaps it's more useful if we confirm the

 3     existence, and then the Court can make a decision based on whether or not

 4     a translation already exists.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Items published in the Official Gazette usually are

 6     separate matters, I take it, but --

 7             MR. TIEGER:  Yeah, I -- in the normal course of business, I

 8     agree.  I mean, it seemed that Dr. Karadzic was interested in this

 9     particular section.  That would normally be the portion of a document

10     like this, which is segmented in precisely the way the Court indicated,

11     that would be translated.  But it did seem fair to let the Court and

12     Dr. Karadzic know that a translation -- full translation was available.

13     But since other separate items of the Gazette don't seem to be at issue,

14     it seems to be not relevant for this purpose at the moment.

15             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not clear.  You want the entire translation of

16     this document?

17             MR. TIEGER:  I had understood that the entire -- that the --

18     sorry, let me step back.  If Dr. Karadzic is tendering just that segment,

19     then I think the answer is clear to everyone.  I had understood, however,

20     that it seemed that the entire Gazette was being submitted.  I didn't

21     know -- and then I thought the translation issue might be the one

22     obstacle to its admission, so I wanted to alert the Court to the

23     existence of that translation.  I'm not suggesting that the remainder --

24     or that the Gazette should be admitted in its entirety.  That seems to be

25     the decision at the moment of the Defence, but I don't have any

Page 5030

 1     objections to the admission of such a document, if he's tendering it.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

 3             I take it, Mr. Karadzic, that your position is that you're

 4     tendering only the part that you referred to today in this

 5     Official Gazette, which is of 36 pages.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Excellency, for reasons of

 7     economy, and we are on this subject now and Mr. Mandic was the minister

 8     who directly sent this proposal, but the Defence has nothing against all

 9     the documents of the government and the Assembly and the Presidency being

10     treated as exhibits on condition that we know that and that we prepare

11     ourselves accordingly.  All these documents are at the disposal of all,

12     but for the time being the Defence is happy with just this subject.  But

13     when we treat another subject, we will probably be revisiting some other

14     parts of these same Official Gazettes.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Very well, thank you.

16             We admitted only those parts referred to during the session, and

17     on that -- with that understanding, we'll carry on.

18             Mr. Karadzic.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             Can we now have 65 ter 5587.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Until we get it, Mr. Minister, let me ask you this:  Do you agree

23     that there were quite a few tensions in the field on account of the

24     arrival of the dead and also because people who lived with us there had

25     their relatives in the adversary's army?

Page 5031

 1        A.   I'm not familiar with the details, but there were quite a few

 2     tensions in the field.

 3        Q.   Namely, was this a highly-risky action; namely, appointing judges

 4     and prosecutors who were Muslims and Croats, while dead people who had

 5     been killed by the Muslim and Croatian Army were coming in?

 6        A.   There were resistances in some parts of the republic.  In fact,

 7     even at the Assembly sessions, certain MPs voiced their dissatisfaction

 8     at my proposals and the fact that you signed the appointment of certain

 9     officials who were non-Serbs.  I believe that we have already seen so far

10     that in several instances, some appointments were postponed until talks

11     were held with those who were against such appointments; namely, until

12     the opponents of these proposals were persuaded that that was the right

13     course of action.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Let us identify this.  This is the 19th Session of

15     the Serbian People, held on the 19th of August, 1992, in Banja Luka;

16     right?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Does Momcilo Mandic -- in other words, do you propose here on the

19     first page the inclusion on the agenda the item -- the agenda item of

20     election and appointment of judges in the Lower Court in Banja Luka?

21        A.   Yes.  I asked for you to be skipped over and for the Assembly to

22     directly decide on the election of judicial officials.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24             Can we now see page 2032, 0410-2032.  That will be perhaps

25     page 14 of this.  In the Serbian language, in the top there is an ERN

Page 5032

 1     number.  One of the experts of the OTP misinterpreted here

 2     Mr. Vito Popovic.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Who is Vitomir Popovic, Mr. Minister?

 5        A.   At the time, he was the president of the Lower Court in

 6     Banja Luka, and later he was to become the vice-premier, the vice-prime

 7     minister, et cetera.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             This is the Serbian page, and in English we have to look for it.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   The discussion surrounds the selection, and some are against the

12     election of judges whose next of kin are somewhere in the enemy's army.

13     And here is what Mr. Popovic says on the topic -- will you interpret this

14     as --

15        A.   Vito Popovic is trying to persuade -- do you want me to read it

16     or to re-tell it?

17        Q.   I believe it is better for you to re-tell it and the participants

18     can read it, if they so like?

19        A.   Vito Popovic as the president of the Lower Court in Banja Luka,

20     which covers a huge territory and quite a few inhabitants; insists that

21     at least 50 per cent of the judges be elected in order for the judicial

22     system to be able to function.  And if certain MPs from the Banja Luka

23     region insisted that no non-Serb judges are elected, he proposes that the

24     elections and appointments be postponed.  But in order for the judiciary

25     to be able to function -- to elect at least those judges and prosecutors

Page 5033

 1     around him, there is no controversy at that session, because there were

 2     already quite a few people in detention who needed to be processed.

 3        Q.   Towards the end --

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Will the speakers please not overlap.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Where it says "5 per cent."  Towards the end of the Serbian

 7     version, before that, one sentence before that.

 8        A.   I apologise:

 9             "It should be stated that then in talking with representatives of

10     the Ministry of Justice of our republic, we agreed to go ahead with the

11     election on national structure basis, but that that number should be

12     considerably reduced.  Bearing in mind the ethnic representation, we

13     propose that there should be 5 per cent of judges of other ethnicity."

14        Q.   Thank you.  We agree that Mr. Popovic did not want to discuss, on

15     a political basis, the respective shares, but insisted that at least

16     those around whom there was no dispute be elected immediately so that the

17     cases which were pending could be processed; is that what you said?

18        A.   Yes, that is what I said.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now see page 16 in English.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Now the MPs are voting, and it is quite a fight.  Can you tell us

22     what the number 13 is about?  That is 2036.  In the Serbian language, it

23     was 2032, and now it is four pages further, 2036.  One page before that,

24     13.

25        A.   "Zoran Lipovac, a Croat," is under number 13.

Page 5034

 1        Q.   Read it, please.

 2        A.   "Who is in favour?  We have to count.  It seems that we all are.

 3     Two against.  And I know that Zoran Lipovac has been elected."

 4        Q.   And the one under him, below?

 5        A.   Also a Croat, but he was not elected.

 6        Q.   Boris Markovic?

 7        A.   "Who is in favour?  Who is against?  All.  Any abstentions?  Two.

 8     I know that Boris Markovic has not been elected judge."

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we now see the next

10     page in Serbian and page 18 in English.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   We see that some were not elected, and that was as a result of

13     the resistances offered.  And in view of the fact that one Croat was

14     elected and the other one was not, these resistances were not motivated

15     ethnically, but rather were on a personal basis?

16        A.   Yes, and I have testified in respect of this topic very

17     extensively in the Stanisic case, when Ms. Korner examined me.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the Serbian version,

19     2038; in other words, the next page.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   "In view of the fact that some were elected, whereas others were

22     not, this is my intervention, and would you be so kind as to read that

23     intervention of mine, and after that, the response to that of

24     Mr. Krajisnik, the Assembly president.

25        A.   "Dr. Karadzic:  I believe I need to say something not only about

Page 5035

 1     this proposal, but about the principle of the matter, if I may.  Look, as

 2     we have said yesterday, we have to see whether he or she is an

 3     appropriate person.  But as far as other nations are concerned, we have

 4     to have a percentage, a proportion, consistent with that in the municipal

 5     authorities.  We have to be responsible.  We are creating a state.  You

 6     are the organ creating it.  The state must be created swiftly and well.

 7     It has to have all its elements in order to survive and to remain as a

 8     state."

 9        Q.   Thank you.  And the last sentence, please?

10        A.   "And because it is able to, it should make it of all its

11     ingredients."

12        Q.   What I mean is because the Serbian people is capable of doing

13     that, it should compose its state of all its ingredients and elements.

14     What does this mean?

15        A.   It means that the national mix should be adequate at all levels

16     of authority in the Republika Srpska.

17        Q.   Do you remember this contribution of mine, because this was your

18     department?

19        A.   Yes, I do, and I remember that some MPs from the Krajina actually

20     attacked you on that score.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Can you read what the presiding -- the president,

22     actually Mr. Krajisnik, said?

23        A.   "The president:  Radovan, let me explain.  Nobody rejects them

24     because they are not good or because they are Muslims or Croats.  Simply,

25     the policy is such that we have to make our options now because we are in

Page 5036

 1     a state of civil war.  They will lose this number of judges, and when the

 2     war is over they will be -- when the conditions are created, they will be

 3     elected."

 4        Q.   Does this actually show that when the conditions are created --

 5     when adequate conditions are created, when the fighting dies down,

 6     et cetera, that there will be elections?

 7        A.   Yes.  As far as I can remember, Mr. Krajisnik's position was that

 8     we should talk to those MPs who withheld their consent for members who

 9     were non-Serbs -- for non-Serbs to be elected to these offices and for

10     the Assembly to be prepared, in a way, to respect the ethnic mix of the

11     different regions and have it reflected adequately in the judicial

12     system, in the offices within the judicial system.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             Can this document be adopted -- admitted?  I believe that it has

15     been admitted in toto as a transcript, but ...

16             JUDGE KWON:  It hasn't been admitted, to my knowledge.  We'll

17     admit it in its entirety.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D422, Your Honours.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Did you notice, Minister, when I'm asking for the floor, I'm

21     asking if I may say, which indicates that the Assembly is a body

22     independent of the president of the republic and it's the legislative

23     branch of authority?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Was there any way for the president to impose on the Presidency

Page 5037

 1     his opinion or an arrangement?

 2        A.   To the Assembly, no.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now go to 65 ter 30413.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   I believe this is the intercepted conversation between me and

 6     Mr. Kupresanin of 9 November 1991; correct?

 7        A.   Yes, that's the Vojo Kupresanin we discussed before.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the next page.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Can you read this line where I say:  "Please"?

11        A.   "Radovan Karadzic:  Please, nobody approached me, and nobody got

12     permission from me to change the decision of the Assembly.  I don't have

13     that right.  Nobody has the right to change it."

14        Q.   Is this consistent with your knowledge that the president of the

15     republic honoured the Assembly as the highest legislative body in the

16     country?

17        A.   Yes.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             Can we MFI this?

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be MFI D423.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now see 65 ter 30519.

23     Sorry, 30591.  It was a slip of the tongue.  That's it in Serbian.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   This is already in February of 1992, the 10th of February.

Page 5038

 1     Again, Kupresanin and Karadzic; right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see page 4 in Serbian and

 4     English.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Towards the bottom, it says:  "Please ..."

 7        A.   "Radovan Karadzic:  Come on.  It's not just the smarts.  There

 8     are also obligations.  One of our MPs, he's the supreme authority in the

 9     Assembly of the Serbian People, and when the Assembly of the Serbian

10     People decide something, Brdo cannot do any different.  He cannot.  And

11     if he does do any different, he's not loyal, he's doing the work of a

12     traitor, whether he likes it or not.  I cannot -- no longer continue to

13     be such a great democrat as to tolerate this, because he can do real

14     damage.  If he couldn't, I wouldn't care."

15        Q.   Is this also part of the struggle for democratic decisions to be

16     enforced, and I should have even been firmer than I actually was, more

17     adamant?

18        A.   Can you rephrase that question to make it a bit clearer?

19        Q.   Does this intercept reflect that I was fighting for

20     democratically-made decisions to be implemented, and that I should have

21     perhaps been even more adamant in this effort?

22        A.   I can only note that you are trying to prevail upon

23     Vojo Kupresanin that the man in question had to abide by the Assembly's

24     decisions.

25        Q.   It says:

Page 5039

 1             "I can no longer be such a great democrat as to tolerate this."

 2             Was I responsible for the enforcement of decisions taken in such

 3     a democratic way?

 4        A.   As the president of the party or the president of the republic?

 5        Q.   Well, it's 1992 already, but it's before the outbreak of the war,

 6     and I'm co-ordinating the work of the party.  Am I responsible for the

 7     implementation of decisions that had been taken in a democratic way?

 8        A.   I can only read this as your effort to persuade the MPs that they

 9     had to honour the decisions of the Assembly, whereas one person

10     here - what was his name? - Vukic or something, he is refusing to abide

11     by these decisions made by the Assembly.

12        Q.   Thank you.  And do you agree that I'm considering the Assembly as

13     the supreme authority?

14        A.   Yes.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             Can we get 65 ter 01000.

17             Was this document before MFI'd?

18             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think so.  We'll mark it for identification.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D424, Your Honours.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   I now ask you to look at this document, which is accompanied this

22     time by a translation, this passage where Radovan Karadzic says:  "Ladies

23     and gentlemen ...," but in English it would be page 2.  From the words:

24     "We hope ..."

25        A.   "We hope that the representatives are getting more active in

Page 5040

 1     municipalities, because as we concluded last time, a representative is an

 2     authority for us, the party ... parties are a service to the elected

 3     people, the people, and to people elected by the people to carry out the

 4     political will of the people.  Party officials are not the authority."

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we get the next page.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "The authority for us are primarily

 7     MPs, representatives, and the rest."

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Does this also confirm that the party provides a service?  It

10     cannot govern; it only helps the elected organs and officials to exercise

11     the power given them by the people in the elections?

12        A.   You are explaining here that the representatives in the Assembly

13     and deputies in local parliaments are the people who are exercising

14     power, the people who govern in the branches of power to which they were

15     elected.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see page 1 just to identify

17     this document.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   This is an extended session, that is, a plenary session, of the

20     main and executive boards of the SDS, held on 19 February 1992 in the

21     Holiday Inn Hotel.  Do you agree that the Main Board cannot be expanded,

22     just a session can be expanded by including additional people?

23        A.   I'm not familiar with the statute of the party, so I can't

24     answer.

25        Q.   I meant the Presidency.  If a presidency is holding an expanded

Page 5041

 1     session, that doesn't mean that the Presidency, itself, has expanded; it

 2     just invited guests and observers and other people to attend the session?

 3             MR. TIEGER:  Excuse me, Your Honour, I'd like to object to that.

 4             First of all, I don't know what kind of opinion Dr. Karadzic is

 5     seeking from this witness, because we've strayed from this document to an

 6     expert opinion on the Main Board about which this witness claims not to

 7     have expertise, and now we're moving on to the Presidency and an opinion

 8     about that.  So -- and that's from Mr. Mandic, who assured me he didn't

 9     want to testify as an expert.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I agree, but I remember having heard from the

11     witness as to the meaning of the extended sitting -- expanded session.

12             But let's carry on, Mr. Karadzic.

13             But on a separate note, I was wondering why this document was

14     titled as "Intercept."

15             MR. TIEGER:  It's a recording, Your Honour.  I think -- I don't

16     think it should be -- I agree it's not -- obviously, it's not a telephone

17     conversation, and so to that extent it would seem to be a misleading

18     designation.  But I think it's somehow tied to the fact that it's a

19     recording.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   As far as the Presidency --

23                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

24             JUDGE KWON:  I was informed that part of this exhibit has already

25     admitted as P12, so this will be added to that.

Page 5042

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The gentleman is a lawyer --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 5             Yes, Mr. Tieger.

 6             MR. TIEGER:  I was just going to say in keeping with -- this is a

 7     session of the Deputy's Club, very closely linked to the Assembly.  I

 8     would think in keeping with the approach that we've adopted recently, it

 9     might make more sense to have this session tendered in its entirety

10     rather than keep accumulating excerpts.

11             JUDGE KWON:  It's 30 pages now.  We'll admit it in its entirety,

12     unless it is objected to.  Yes.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No objection.

14             JUDGE KWON:  So we'll change the P12 to compose of every

15     document, if that's feasible by the Registry.

16             With that understanding, we'll move on.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] English page 10, please.

18             While we're waiting, I just wanted to say that Mr. Mandic has a

19     degree in law and he knows how the Presidency may be changed; only by

20     constitutional amendment.

21             This is a plenary session of the party, which we see that

22     representatives of municipal boards and others have been invited to

23     attend.  That's what the plenary session --

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The plenary session is a general

25     session, as it says.

Page 5043

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In Serbian, it's 203 [as

 2     interpreted].  The one we had now was 2217, and we now need 2203.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Towards the bottom, it says:  "Another problem that cropped

 5     up ...," below "Vukic," below the name "Vukic."

 6        A.   "Another problem that cropped up is that the power is alienated

 7     from the party.  That's a catastrophic problem.  We can't allow for that.

 8     Presidents of municipalities, presidents of the executive boards, some,

 9     at least, not all, do not care much for MPs, and they should.  Their MP

10     is the supreme authority in their locality.  He's part of the highest

11     supreme body, and he's a member of the Serbian Assembly of the common

12     Bosnia and Herzegovina."

13        Q.   Next page in Serbian.

14        A.   "He is a member of the largest authority and a member of the

15     Serbian Assembly, and he is also part of the Municipal Representatives

16     Club."

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we get page 20 now.  English

18     page 20 and Serbian page 2211.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Could you read the part where it says:

21             "500.000 Serbs, that's not the exercise of rights by the people.

22     A million people remain outside Krajina, and we have to agree amongst

23     ourselves."

24        A.   "We have to agree.  If this policy is no good, then the

25     Main Board has to decide so today, that it's no good, that it's leading

Page 5044

 1     into a dead-end, that so far not a single objective has been attained,

 2     and then let's change the leadership."

 3        Q.   Let's see the next page, and you can continue.

 4        A.   "It will, it will.  I will be grateful.  You will not accept me.

 5     Will you give me a decoration or something.  I will be an honorary member

 6     or something, because I was the first president of the party, and I'll be

 7     happy and grateful to move forward with the new policy.  If there is an

 8     alternative policy and you are offering it, and we are not implementing

 9     it, then we deserve to be replaced."

10        Q.   Can you go a bit further down?

11        A.   "The supreme body of power of the Serbian people in Bosnia and

12     Herzegovina is the Serbian Assembly.  Make no mistake about that."

13        Q.   Do you remember that at this time, the

14     Bosnia-Herzegovina Conference has been underway for quite a while,

15     presided by Mr. Cutileiro?

16        A.   That was the month of February, when the Cutileiro Plan was being

17     implemented and when the Sarajevo Agreement and the Lisbon Agreement were

18     topical.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All of this document has been

20     admitted, hasn't it?

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Do you agree, Minister, that both as the president of the party,

24     even without any state office, and later as president of the republic, I

25     am trying to get decisions made by the Assembly implemented, I'm trying

Page 5045

 1     not to allow anyone to change them willfully?

 2        A.   From what I can see in this text, you have a problem with

 3     Brdjanin and some other MPs, and you are trying to prevail upon them that

 4     they have to be part of the Serbian Assembly and part of the

 5     Joint Assembly, and that they have to work to implement the decisions

 6     made by the Assembly majority.

 7        Q.   It wasn't recorded, but I'd like you to confirm or deny that I

 8     wasn't always successful in pushing my proposals.

 9        A.   Yes.  More than once your proposals were not accepted.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             1D192, could I have that now, please.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   This is a topic that we dealt with, creating a state based on

14     rule of law, creating a judicial system on that basis, then our struggle

15     in the Assembly and in the field to have this carried through.

16             Now let us see how the state organs are operating, apart from all

17     of our interventions.

18             Can you tell us who Mr. Dobro Planojevic is?

19        A.   Dobro Planojevic is a policeman.

20        Q.   He is not politically involved, he's not a member of the SDS; he

21     is a policeman inside-out; is that it, in a nutshell?

22        A.   Dobro Planojevic was a police cadet in Vraca and had joined the

23     police force when he was 15.

24        Q.   Does this bear the date of the 8th of June, 1992?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 5046

 1        Q.   May I remind you that I issued an order that we already discussed

 2     about observing international norms and the Geneva Conventions on the

 3     13th of June, 1992?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   However, as you said, perhaps that was necessary for the sake of

 6     authority in the area.  However, let us have a look at this.  Did state

 7     organs act that way, even without that?  So can you please read this,

 8     this part that starts with:  "Over the past two months ...," et cetera?

 9        A.   "Over the past two months, since the war broke out in the

10     territory of the former Bosnia-Herzegovina, there has been a considerable

11     increase in the commission of crimes, property-related crimes, war

12     profiteering --"

13             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have a translation?

14             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Your Honour, 18395.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could we then have both

16     versions on the screen.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   If you wish, have a look at this, and then interpret it for us.

19     You don't really need to read out the entire text, because the

20     participants can do that on their own.

21        A.   Dobro Planojevic is informing the CSB of Banja Luka, as assistant

22     minister for crime-related affairs.  He is speaking about war

23     profiteering and other crimes, and also the commission of war crimes, and

24     he is asking for persons who committed war crimes to be handed over to

25     the judiciary or the military police.  He is also asking for

Page 5047

 1     documentation of criminal activity, as he says, both of groups and

 2     individuals, and also he's demanding their urgent arrest.

 3        Q.   Please go on.  What else does he say?  He is also drawing

 4     attention to what?  That's the second part.

 5        A.   "Inter alia, could corpses be photographed and, wherever

 6     possible, post-mortems, because in these wartime conditions you will

 7     encounter many obstacles in your battle against crime, and you will

 8     sometimes be unable to take adequate measures.  In such cases, all

 9     findings should be properly recorded in the form of official notes so

10     that necessary measures or criminal prosecution could be taken

11     subsequently."

12        Q.   Can you continue?

13        A.   "We take this opportunity to emphasise that the civilian

14     population and prisoners of war should be treated in strict compliance

15     with the regulations of international law of war."

16        Q.   Then there is his signature, and what does Stojan Zupljanin add

17     to this?

18        A.   I can't see that.  Could you scroll down a bit?

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could you scroll down a bit.  I

20     believe it's the next page in English.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "It is necessary for all authorised

22     officials of the Public Security Service to be familiarised with the

23     content of this dispatch and to observe the instructions from this

24     dispatch in your further activities."

25             Signed by chief of centre, Stojan Zupljanin.

Page 5048

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Minister, do you know that to this day in Bosnia-Herzegovina,

 3     proceedings are underway on the basis of criminal reports that were filed

 4     by our organs during the war?

 5        A.   I don't know whether this is still underway, but I know that

 6     proceedings were carried out for a long time on the basis of these

 7     reports, considerably after the crimes were committed.

 8        Q.   Are you trying to say that this set of instructions of

 9     Dobro Planojevic, namely, that if you cannot prosecute, then provide

10     proper documentation and matters will be dealt with later?  Was that

11     actually carried out?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Do you know that in the Muslim area in Bihac, Serbs are being

14     tried on the basis of our criminal reports?

15        A.   No, I am not aware of that.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Then on some other

17     occasion, we are going to show these judgements that are based on our

18     criminal reports.

19             Can this be admitted into evidence?

20             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Mandic, whose document is this?  Is this

21     document signed by Planojevic, or Mr. Zupljanin, or by both?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a document of

23     Dobro Planojevic, assistant minister for crime prevention.  And the

24     amendment is written by Stojan Zupljanin.  That is to say, he said that

25     that document needs to be observed in terms of further activities.

Page 5049

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Who was in a higher position, in terms of hierarchy?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Dobro Planojevic was

 3     the first-ranking.  He informed by a dispatch the chief of the centre of

 4     security Services in the area of Banja Luka who is lower ranking but

 5     encompasses a number of security stations in some ten municipalities.

 6     But Dobro Planojevic, as the high-ranking, gave these instructions to the

 7     chief.  He then passed on these instructions to all his subordinates that

 8     they should act in accordance with instructions of Dobro Planojevic;

 9     namely, he lowered it to the municipal level, to the field level.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

11             If it is convenient, we'll have a break.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may, just to clarify, just one

13     sentence, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the central authorities, a

16     dispatch was sent to the region and from the regional level to the

17     municipal level, to the municipalities.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

19             Yes, we will admit this.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D425, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Twenty-five minutes.  We'll resume at 10 to 6.00.

22                           --- Recess taken at 5.25 p.m.

23                           --- On resuming at 5.54 p.m.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Excellency.

Page 5050

 1             [Interpretation] May I have 1D191, please.  1D191.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   While we're waiting for this, Minister, let me ask you whether

 4     the police was duty-bound to report to me about their regular activities

 5     if they had no special problem.

 6        A.   No, they reported to the government, or, rather, the

 7     prime minister.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please cast a glance at this, then, further

 9     down.  It's the 8th of June, isn't it?  And you can perhaps tell the

10     Trial Chamber and all the participants what this actually is.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

12             MR. TIEGER:  01083, Your Honour, will enable us to find a

13     translation.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have both version on the

16     screen, please.  Thank you.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   We don't need to read out every word, but could you please

19     explain to the Trial Chamber what this is, especially the five points?

20        A.    Through the Serb agency "SRNA," you are addressing all the

21     relevant factors in the Government of the Republika Srpska.

22             Number 1, you are asking all the local authorities and prominent

23     individuals of Serb ethnicity to ensure protection and care for all

24     wounded and ill individuals, regardless of which side they belong to.

25     What they mean here is which warring party they belong to.  Also, to

Page 5051

 1     humanely treat all persons.  Also, that the civilian population be spared

 2     of all attacks.  Also, to provide protection and all possible aid to

 3     refugees and to respect the Red Cross sign and to use that sign only for

 4     markings on medical personnel, hospitals and ambulances.

 5        Q.   Can you look at the last -- the last sentence.  And it's the next

 6     page in English.

 7        A.   "We are renewing our call for the resumption of the activities of

 8     the International Red Cross and the protection of all civilians of all

 9     nations, as well as prisoners of war."

10        Q.   Thank you.  Since communications were down, was this perhaps the

11     only way to send the positions of the state authorities to all parts of

12     the country?  Was anything else possible?

13        A.   I don't know whether anything else was possible, but I know that

14     at the beginning of the war, all communications were down.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             Can this be admitted into evidence?

17             JUDGE KWON:  Unless it is objected to, we'll admit it.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D426, Your Honours.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 171, please.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   This is a government session held on the 8th of June; isn't that

22     right, Minister?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Thank you.  I would like to have all the participants focus on

25     this.

Page 5052

 1             Now we'd like to look at page 2 in both languages, I think.

 2             Do you agree that there are no more government sessions held

 3     together with the National Security Council; there is not a single such

 4     case once there was a normal Assembly life?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Can you look at paragraph 2?

 7        A.   "It was concluded that during the course of the day, the

 8     ministries should prepare a questionnaire on the basis of which the

 9     situation in the field could be examined so as to provide --"

10        Q.   "For uniformity"?

11        A.   "... uniformity and insight into the real situation in the

12     municipalities, that the regulation on apartments should be prepared

13     immediately, that is, the regulations about moving Serb people who are

14     left without accommodation into deserted houses and flats.  Among other

15     things, the regulations should state that temporary decrees should be

16     issued as soon as possible; that before moving in, a committee should

17     make a list of all property; and that the property and facilities should

18     be taken care of," and so on.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Does the government still have to deal with the

20     situation in which they don't know what is happening in the

21     municipalities, the municipalities are practically state-lets in their

22     own right, and does it state here that all property has been recorded by

23     these commissions or committees and only temporarily made available for

24     the use of other persons; right?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 5053

 1        Q.   Do you agree that this was the situation that made it necessary

 2     to establish the Office of Commissioners of the Central Authorities so

 3     that they could tour municipalities and inform them of what was going on,

 4     and also they should inform the government about what was happening?

 5        A.   In my view, that was one of the reasons why crisis staffs were

 6     supposed to be dismantled.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             Can this be admitted?

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D427, Your Honours.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             Can we have 65 ter 114.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   May I tell you that this is yet another expanded meeting of the

15     War Presidency.  It's not the War Presidency, actually, because we

16     haven't declared a state of war.  And it is held on the 9th of June, so

17     can we identify this, and then could you look at that first and second

18     paragraph, General Mladic and General Gvero?

19        A.   This meeting was held on the 9th of June, 1992, and

20     General Mladic briefed the Presidency in detail about the overall

21     situation in the Serb Army, and he presented figures on the quantities of

22     weapons, ammunition, spare parts, reserves of oil and oil products, food

23     and other reserves:

24             "General Gvero reported on the situation in the area of the

25     Banja Luka Corps and proposed that authorities be established at all

Page 5054

 1     levels swiftly because of the widespread crimes."

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that all heavy artillery activities

 3     should be stopped and that a strong unit should be sent to help the units

 4     around Sarajevo?

 5             Now I'd like to ask you whether you agree that our supremacy, in

 6     terms of the number of weapons, was the only such element in terms of the

 7     balance of strategic forces around Sarajevo?  I mean, I am trying --

 8        A.   I really cannot follow this, and I did not know what the

 9     situation in the army was.

10        Q.   This is what I'm putting to you:  Since a decision is being made

11     to stop the use of artillery, it is stated in paragraph 4 that a unit has

12     to come from Krajina in order to keep the situation as it is, in terms of

13     the Serb neighbourhoods, because if there would be an exclusion of heavy

14     artillery, they would beat us.  So that is why this unit had to come from

15     Krajina, if there is an exclusion of heavy artillery; right?

16        A.   Mr. President, this is a meeting of the expanded War Presidency.

17     These are minutes from that meeting, and I can only interpret this on the

18     basis of what you've just put to me.  I, personally, was not aware of the

19     military situation around Sarajevo.

20        Q.   Thank you.  And do you agree that -- oh, all right, we're not

21     going to deal with that subject.

22             Do you agree that in the beginning of June, the young people of

23     Pale got killed in Zepa after a deception of the municipal authorities of

24     the Muslims in Zepa?  They had promised them safe passage, and then they

25     killed all of them.  Was there a funeral held at Pale?

Page 5055

 1        A.   I know about that incident because there was a big funeral of all

 2     these young people at Pale.

 3        Q.   Such mass funerals of Serb fighters, did they aggravate tensions

 4     and did they lead to fear amongst the Muslim population?  Do you know

 5     about that or -- and is that only natural?

 6        A.   Well, when things like this happened, of course, the other side

 7     was afraid that there would be revenge, and there was fear on all three

 8     sides that were at war.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Can you read out what we decided; paragraph 6?

10        A.   Paragraph 6:

11             "That mass burials of dead soldiers be banned and condolences to

12     their families be expressed in a dignified way."

13        Q.   Thank you.  There is some information here about how the airport

14     was handed over and so on, but could you please read 11?

15        A.   "Write up instructions for the Serb Army to observe the

16     Geneva Conventions when treating prisoners of war."

17        Q.   This is the 9th of June, and my order was issued on the 13th of

18     June; right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And do you agree that when there was a lack of communication and

21     there were hardly any media, this had nothing to do with propaganda; this

22     was a substantive matter?

23        A.   Yes, this was life, itself, at the seat of the Government of

24     Republika Srpska.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 5056

 1             Can this be admitted?

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D428, Your Honour.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             172, that's the 65 ter number I'd like to have now, please.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Is this document minutes from the government meeting held on the

 8     same day as the Presidency session?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Can you please read 1(a)?

11        A.   "Order of the Central Commission for the Exchange of Prisoners."

12        Q.   And then under AD-1, "Re-1," under A?

13        A.   The government has supported the text of the order of the Central

14     Commission for the Exchange of the Prisoners.

15        Q.   You said that the commission was a government organ and we can

16     see from this that it also issued orders?

17        A.   The order was issued by the Central Commission and it was signed

18     by Mr. Colovic.  And as we have noted already, the Central Commission was

19     a government organ, a body, a governmental body.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page in

21     Serbian, please.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Under B, can you tell us what it is?

24        A.   "The government acknowledged the letter of the president of the

25     Central Commission for the Exchange of Prisoners.  It was concluded that

Page 5057

 1     the minister of justice should conduct a talk with Rajko Colovic, the

 2     president of the commission, to establish what the motives are for asking

 3     for a replacement, and that if reasons for dismissal are justified, the

 4     above-named shall continue to perform the duty of president of commission

 5     until a new president of the commission is appointed."

 6        Q.   Now:  "The government has noted ..."  Can you just re-tell us

 7     that paragraph?

 8        A.   At that time, as I've said in my testimony in the Stanisic case,

 9     and I fully stand by what I said then, the observed problem -- the

10     problem with the exchange of prisoners appeared throughout the area of

11     Bosnia and Herzegovina, and the government set up an independent

12     governmental body which had the power to set up regional and municipal

13     commissions which were under it.  The lists were to be centralised so

14     there would be comprehensive informing on both warring sides.

15     Mr. Rajko Colovic was elected, I believe, at the proposal of the

16     prime minister, and the other two members were from the line ministries.

17     I think one was from the Ministry of the Interior, and the Ministry of

18     Justice, and I'm not sure which other ministry.

19        Q.   And it's stated here that these were delicate matters, that

20     instructions should be prepared to incorporate international regulations,

21     et cetera?

22        A.   Yes, I've just said so.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24             Can this document be admitted?

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this has been admitted as

Page 5058

 1     Exhibit P1091.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             Can we have 65 ter 11024.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, for the record, this is

 6     Exhibit P1090.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellent.  Then we do not have to

 8     tender it.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   This is from the 6th of June, 1992, the Central Commission for

11     the Exchange of Captured Persons, and it is stated here "Serbian Republic

12     of Bosnia-Herzegovina Central Commission."  It is not considered to be

13     under the government at all, but it is an independent body; is that

14     correct?

15        A.   Yes, I stated that this was an independent governmental body.

16     I've said so -- that many times.

17        Q.   What remains unclear here, and it has been presented by the

18     Prosecution -- can we see the next page, in fact?

19             Can we see the next page in Serbian, too?

20             What remains unclear is the situation or the fate of

21     able-bodied -- can I ask you to focus on this part which begins with:

22     "Svezene" [phoen] up to the part with "legislation and captives"?  Can

23     you read that part and interpret it?

24        A.   "All women whose prisoners -- who are prisoners --"

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Just a second.  I'm sorry, but the interpreter

Page 5059

 1     is unable to find the corresponding paragraph in English, or in Serbian,

 2     for that matter.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  So first we need to find out the passage in the

 4     document, and if you could repeat reading again.  But for the benefit of

 5     the interpreters, Mr. Karadzic, could you identify the passage?

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is the fourth paragraph from the

 7     top, and in the English version, it is the last passage on this side

 8     which we now -- on this page which we now see.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "All women whose captivity, either

10     deprivation of freedom, is not associated with war operations so is not

11     connected to war operations, children and minors up to 16 years old, old,

12     infirm, and sick persons, should be immediately released and ensured safe

13     movement according to their expressed wishes, without any conditions

14     being set to them or exchanges."

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise, but this is not the

16     right English page.

17             It is now there, which starts with "All women ..."

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Tell us, on what grounds could somebody be arrested if they were

20     not prisoners of war?  Were there any other grounds for arresting people?

21        A.   Well, that was part of the regular, routine criminal procedure.

22     If someone was suspected of having committed a crime, they would be --

23     that would be grounds for their arrest.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Now, can you read this paragraph or interpret it for

25     us, the one which says:  "All persons ..."

Page 5060

 1             [In English] "All persons have to be granted ..."

 2        A.   "All persons have to be ensured freedom of movement, of removal

 3     according to their wishes, if that does not mean jeopardising personal or

 4     general safety."

 5        Q.   And the next one, please.

 6        A.   "Persons taken prisoners and persons deprived of liberty, against

 7     whom criminal proceedings have been instituted, shall not be subject of

 8     this order, but the provisions of the Criminal Code shall be applicable."

 9        Q.   So it depends on the actual criminal offence, what shall be

10     applicable.

11             Can I now ask you, Mr. Minister, whether our law distinguishes

12     between domicile and address, and can you explain the difference?

13        A.   Domicile or permanent address is where someone is permanently

14     residing, whereas an address, a place of residence, is a place where

15     someone is registered and stays for a while.

16        Q.   So it is where a person stays for a longer time?

17        A.   Yes, where a person stays for a longer time and where all his

18     documents are; of the person in question, in other words.

19        Q.   I believe that there is something wrong in the -- actually, the

20     domicile is the permanent resident; right?

21        A.   Yes, that's what I explained.

22        Q.   And temporary residence or temporary address is where one stays

23     on a temporary basis; right?

24        A.   I am currently temporarily residing in The Hague, and my

25     permanent residence is in Belgrade.

Page 5061

 1        Q.   So if someone is asking for the change of a temporary residence,

 2     does this mean moving out on a permanent basis or is this just a

 3     temporary, interim relocation of the person in question?

 4        A.   This is temporary relocation, so temporary residence is a

 5     temporary category, and it is delineated in terms of time.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7             This has already been admitted, and we need not deal with it any

 8     further.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

10             Mr. Mandic, could you read that passage again for us which starts

11     with:  "All women ...," which you read some minutes ago?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "All women -- all women whose

13     detention or deprivation of liberty is not related to war or war

14     activities, and children and minors up to 16 years of age, old, and

15     infirm persons, should be released immediately and their safe movement

16     enabled, according to their expressed wishes, without any conditions

17     being set or any exchange."

18             JUDGE KWON:  In relation to this passage, you were asked by

19     Mr. Karadzic:

20             "On what grounds could somebody be arrested if they were not

21     prisoners of war?  Were there any other grounds for arresting people?"

22             And your answer was:

23             "Well, this was part of the regular, routine criminal procedure.

24     If someone was suspected of having committed a crime, they would be --

25     that would be grounds for their arrest."

Page 5062

 1             Then I would like to ask you:  On what grounds were these women

 2     arrested?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this order can be

 4     explained much better by Mr. Colovic, I'm sure.  But in my personal

 5     opinion, this was sheltering civilians -- relocating civilians from

 6     war-ravaged areas, where there was fighting going on between the warring

 7     sides, such as was Dobrinja, for instance, at which time civilians and

 8     women and children were placed in certain facilities until the end of the

 9     war operations.  And the instruction was that after that and in similar

10     situations, those people should be immediately released, naturally,

11     unless they were -- they featured in some other regular criminal

12     proceedings.

13             JUDGE KWON:  So the thing is that these women were not arrested

14     or detained in relation to war crimes?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  No, in my interpretation,

16     Your Honours, the way I see it.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Then we can take it there were at the time also some

18     males, men, who were detained for the same reason as these women?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there were, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE KWON:  And according to this order, they were not released?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] According to this order, only

22     released unconditionally were women and children and old and infirm

23     people, whereas able-bodied men fit for battle were not released,

24     according to the order of the president of the state commission.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Mandic.

Page 5063

 1             Mr. Karadzic.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   May I ask you to explain this "unconditionally"?  What was the

 4     condition for releasing these people as well, or what was the decisive

 5     factor whether they would be released or held?

 6        A.   Able-bodied males were examined by the competent organs, whether

 7     civilians or military; namely, by the police or by the military police.

 8     And if they hadn't violated the war of law [as interpreted] or had not

 9     participated in the fighting or had not been active in the conflicts,

10     they would be released and/or exchanged, whereas these categories that

11     the President of this honourable Court has asked me about, i.e., the

12     Chamber, had to be released without any conditions, without any

13     investigations, without any examination.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree with the assessment of the Muslim

15     General Divjak that in the first year of the war, at least 75 to

16     80 per cent of them waged war in civilian clothes?

17        A.   As far as I know -- actually, I don't know the exact percentage,

18     but I do know that quite a few of the members of the Muslim Army in

19     Bosnia-Herzegovina did not have uniforms.

20        Q.   Does that mean that taking captive someone in the zone of war

21     actions, if someone does not have a uniform, that does not mean that that

22     someone is not a combatant?

23        A.   That was investigated by the competent security services.  It was

24     up to them to establish whether someone had participated in the fighting,

25     whether it was an active combatant who participated in the fighting or a

Page 5064

 1     civilian who just happened to be in his house.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  We shall deal with this topic at some length, but let

 3     me ask you this:  Did you know that in Prijedor and Sanski Most, the

 4     authorities had aired on radio an invitation -- a call to civilians to

 5     remain at their homes until the fighting against the terrorists was over,

 6     and one witness has confirmed that here in respect of Sanski Most?

 7        A.   I do not know that, Mr. President.

 8        Q.   Now, that prompts me to ask you this:  Do you know that from the

 9     report that the government asked for, of those captured in Sanski Most,

10     41 per cent were released and 59 were sent to Manjaca, whereas in

11     Prijedor over 50 per cent were released in this screening, in this

12     triage?

13        A.   I don't know that.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  We shall see the

15     relevant documents.

16             Has this document been admitted?

17             JUDGE KWON:  We were told it has already been admitted as

18     Prosecution Exhibit 1090.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we see 65 ter

20     01581.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this has been admitted as --

22             JUDGE KWON:  Admitted as ...?

23             THE REGISTRAR:  I'm mistaken.  I think I have the wrong 65 ter

24     number.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

Page 5065

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Mr. Minister, is this contract an agreement on the mutual release

 4     of prisoners on the principle "all for all"?  Tell me who drew this up,

 5     who signed it, and when.

 6        A.   This agreement was made by the authorised representatives of the

 7     Commission for the Exchange of Prisoners of Wars on the basis of an

 8     agreement signed on the -- concluded on the 5th of July, 1992.  It was

 9     signed by Nenad Vanovac on behalf of the Serbian side --

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the speakers please not overlap.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the English, the entire

12     page in English, please.  Scroll up a bit.

13             JUDGE KWON:  The 65 ter number of the document we are looking at

14     is 01581, Mr. Karadzic?

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, that's the number I called,

16     and I received what I wanted.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Then the Registrar should be right.  It has already

18     been admitted as Exhibit P1131?

19             THE REGISTRAR:  That's correct, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE KWON:  P1131.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   So Mr. Bikel [phoen] has signed here for the UNPROFOR as a

24     witness?

25        A.   Yes.  Filip Vukovic signed for the federation side, the Muslim

Page 5066

 1     side, and Nenad Vanovac signed for the Serbian side, the opposing side.

 2        Q.   There is no gender distinction here.  All persons found detained

 3     on both sides are unconditionally released?

 4        A.   Yes, that's what I tried to explain during the examination

 5     conducted by Mr. Tieger.  I tried to explain this contract.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7             Can we have the next page; in English as well.  No, one page

 8     further in English.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Could you read item 3?

11        A.   This is an agreement between you and Mr. Alija Izetbegovic,

12     president of the Presidency, concerning an exchange "all for all," and in

13     item 3 it says:

14             "The parties to the agreement accept that the civilian

15     population, especially the old, the infirm, and the sick, women and

16     children, be released unconditionally from detention and captivity

17     through the commission."

18        Q.   It is, therefore, underlined that civilian population, that means

19     men, women and children, and especially the old and the infirm; not only

20     the old and infirm, but especially them?

21        A.   The assumption here, Mr. President, is that if there are people

22     on both sides in captivity and in detention, including children and the

23     old and the infirm, they should be released immediately, because we had

24     already noted that in certain localities, the crisis staffs kept in

25     captivity old and infirm people.  That was before the central authorities

Page 5067

 1     and the central state commission was established.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the next page in both

 3     versions.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   And could you read to us the last item, 8 -- the last sentence of

 6     item 8?  The last sentence.

 7        A.   "The parties to the agreement undertake not to arrest civilians

 8     and to enable them to move freely on the territory under their control."

 9        Q.   So there is no distinction between men and women among civilians?

10        A.   Yes, that's true.  All civilians.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see paragraph 17.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   When you look at 17, do you agree that for a while,

14     Mr. Izetbegovic signed a separate copy so that his signature would not

15     find itself on the same page as the signature of a Serb?

16        A.   Yes, I remember that.

17        Q.   Look at item 17.

18        A.   At meetings where they considered the implementation of this

19     agreement, the parties to the agreement shall, without fail, invite

20     representatives of the UNHCR and the UNPROFOR, as well as representatives

21     of the Red Cross of the Serbian Republic BH, the Red Cross of the

22     Republic of BH, and representatives of the ICRC.

23        Q.   Would it have been much less hard on the civilians if this

24     agreement had been honoured?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 5068

 1        Q.   Since this one is admitted, is the Karadzic/Izetbegovic agreement

 2     also admitted?

 3        A.   As far as I know, yes.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, it has already been entered as Exhibit P1131.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             Can we now have 1D2059.  I don't know whether we have a

 7     translation.  If there is one, the Prosecution would know.  I don't.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Do you agree, Minister, that this is the Banja Luka Commission, a

10     regional commission?

11        A.   This is a report from 1993, from October 1993, when

12     Mr. Vitomir Popovic was the deputy prime minister, and late Jovo Rosic

13     was the minister of justice, and this is, indeed, a regional commission.

14        Q.   Does the paragraph 1 say:

15             "Our demand has been accepted to enable the temporary removal or

16     relocation of all Serbs from that area who so wish"?

17        A.   "Our demand to enable temporary relocation of all Serbs from that

18     area who so wish has been accepted.  In exchange, the Muslims want

19     unhindered passage for convoys of humanitarian aid through to Travnik and

20     Zenica," et cetera.

21        Q.   And what else?

22        A.   And that the Serbs account for 15 to 20 per cent in this convoy,

23     and other ethnicities, Croat, Muslims, Jews, Slovenes, and Macedonians.

24        Q.   So is it the case that Serbs want to have their population

25     allowed to -- I am sorry.  Interpreters, I will repeat.

Page 5069

 1             Does this mean that this commission is asking that Serbs from

 2     Zenica, Travnik, and Central Bosnia, at least those who so wish, be

 3     enabled to move to Serb territory, whereas Muslims set a condition; that

 4     humanitarian aid convoys pass unhindered to Travnik and Zenica, and that

 5     in the Serbian convoy, there should be 15 to 20 per cent of their own

 6     people, Muslims and Croats, who want to go to Europe?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  The first sentence of paragraph 3, please.

 9        A.   It says that:

10             "In December 1993, a high-ranking Serbian judge/cleric opened

11     three offices for Serbs who want temporary relocation to apply."

12             Therefore, it was well known that at that time in Central Bosnia,

13     there was a base there of the Mujahedin, a brigade, El Mujahid, who were

14     especially cruel, and there were many Serbs who fell victim in that area.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Paragraph 4.

18        A.   "On the day before Christmas, 6 January 1994, we admitted -- we

19     took in 198 persons from Zenica, including 180 Serbs.  The rest are

20     Muslims who are living in third countries (Austria, Germany, Sweden,

21     Slovakia)."  Out of them, only one three-member family is purely Muslim.

22     The others are all mixed, including, for instance, family Mitrovic,

23     Trkulja family and Derberovic [phoen], Nedzad, with wife, Gordana, and

24     children, Sasa and Zlatan."

25        Q.   Go on.

Page 5070

 1        A.   "All who came out were temporarily put up in a make-shift

 2     admission centre in Ljubija, where they were processed as due.

 3     Unfortunately, 14 persons from the Muslim group are still in Ljubija."

 4        Q.   Does that mean they were waiting for something?

 5        A.   I don't know, Mr. President.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May this be admitted, please?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  We'll mark it for identification.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D429.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Just for the record, can we see the date of this

10     document?  The 26th of January, yes.  Thank you.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 24, Your Honours.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   But that's a report for 1993, because this was the beginning of

14     the year?

15        A.   Yes.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17             Have we got a number for this?

18             Can we go to 65 ter 189.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Same topic.  The 41st session of the government, held on 22 July

21     1992; right?

22        A.   Yes.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see page 2.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Can you read to us 7 and 8?

Page 5071

 1        A.   "7.  Proposal to appoint the president of the Central Commission

 2     for the Exchange of Prisoners of War.

 3             "8.  Agreement on the condition and procedure of exchanging

 4     prisoners of war."

 5        Q.   And then after item 14, you noted that it would be a good idea

 6     for more ministers to attend, rather than send their representatives, but

 7     it was still found that there was a quorum.

 8             Now, can we move four pages forward.  In Serbian, the ERN ends

 9     with 452.  That's perfect.

10             Can you see "AD-8"?

11             And if we could get it in English, it would be probably page 6.

12             Now, could you read number 8?

13        A.   "The government upheld the agreement on the conditions and

14     procedure for exchanging prisoners of war.

15             "It has been proposed to refer to the peace agreement recently

16     signed in London in the introductory part of the agreement."

17        Q.   Do you remember that I undertook, before Lord Carrington, that

18     there would be an exchange "all for all" and that civilians would be able

19     to move to a territory that is safer for them, and that was the basis of

20     that agreement which also provided for police escort to civilians up to

21     that territory they wanted to reach?

22        A.   Can you rephrase?

23        Q.   Do you recall that in July -- I do beg the interpreters' pardon.

24     I am under great time pressure.

25             Do you recall that conference in July?  It was still the

Page 5072

 1     Cutileiro-Carrington Conference.  We undertook to exchange prisoners "all

 2     for all" and to provide police escort to civilians who wanted to move to

 3     another territory they found safer, and that was the basis for some of my

 4     orders.

 5        A.   That was with the mediation of Lord Carrington, the British

 6     negotiator/mediator.  I know that.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the next page, AD-14,

 8     third paragraph.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Can you read to us the third paragraph in 14?

11        A.   "The government has been informed about certain incidents of

12     unlawful treatment of prisoners of war.  It has been decided to take

13     measures to ensure a consistent implementation of the order by the

14     Presidency of the Serbian Republic BH on the treatment of prisoners of

15     war."

16        Q.   We'll come back to that order, but let me ask you:  If the

17     government had criminal intentions, wouldn't it be pleased by this,

18     rather than taking measures to redress the situation?  Was the government

19     supporting these incidents of unlawful conduct or not?

20        A.   The Serbian government never had criminal intent, especially not

21     the government where I was a member.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             Can we have this document admitted?

24             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think -- so we'll admit it.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D430, Your Honours.

Page 5073

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             Can we get 65 ter 144.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   This a session of the Presidency held on 9 October.  You are

 5     still on the Cabinet, but Mrs. Plavsic and I were not present.  This was

 6     just a consultation.  Proposals were made, and I later signed those

 7     things that were accepted.

 8             Can you read to us from the paragraph that begins:  "It is

 9     noted ..."?

10        A.   "It is noted that an exchange of prisoners did not happen,

11     because the opposite side brought all men and women to be exchanged.

12     Then even the exhumations had not been done.  A new meeting was

13     scheduled."

14        Q.   Do you remember that the opposing side often sabotaged exchanges,

15     or they brought an inadequate number of the wounded, or they brought

16     their civilians to be exchanged for fighting men?

17        A.   I know that there had been problems with exchange of prisoners.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             Can this document be admitted?

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D431, Your Honours.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D2014, please.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   We discussed this a moment ago, Minister.  It's about civilians

25     in combat areas, combat zones.  Let's see what the commander of the

Page 5074

 1     Sarajevo Romanija Corps says about this.  Sladoje Cedomir signed on his

 2     behalf, and that's his chief of staff, I suppose.  It's the 22nd of

 3     October, 1992.  Could you give us a short reading?

 4        A.   "The commander of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps orders:

 5             "Women, children and old people from places that are not loyal to

 6     our government should be secured on territories of municipalities of

 7     their previous residence of organisation -- in the organisation of

 8     civilian authorities, enabling correct treatment, safety," et cetera.

 9        Q.   Is this an order to all units?

10        A.   Yes, it's addressed to the commanders of all the units belonging

11     to the Sarajevo Romanija Corps.

12        Q.   Could you read the preamble?

13        A.   "In view of the fact that there have been cases when women,

14     children, and elderly men of Muslim ethnicity were rounded up and sent to

15     the corps command, where they pose an additional burden in terms of

16     accommodation, food and care, and in order to provide organised treatment

17     in the future, I hereby order:"

18        Q.   And number 2?

19        A.   "Prisoners captured in combat should be sent to the corps

20     command, while taking care that all measures for their safety are taken

21     during the journey.  After their processing by officials from the corps

22     command, they will be placed in the Kula Prison, where they would be

23     handed over for further treatment to police officials and commissions for

24     exchange."

25        Q.   And number 3?

Page 5075

 1        A.   Number 3:

 2             "Muslims who remain loyal should be provided with all the

 3     necessary conditions for continued life and work, to the extent of our

 4     possibilities."

 5        Q.   And now about these people, were they just -- were they arrested

 6     or were they removed from combat zones?

 7        A.   They were removed from combat zones and taken to shelters; for

 8     instance, to the shelter in the Lukavica Barracks, where there was

 9     accommodation and food available.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             Can this document be admitted?

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D432, Your Honours.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now, do we have time for another

15     document?  1D2015, 1D2015.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Would you like to give us a summary of this document?

18        A.   It's from the Supreme Command Staff of the Armed Forces, and it's

19     sent to all the district defence staffs and all the prisons in the

20     territory of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  It's an order pursuant

21     to international conventions on the treatment of prisoners of war.

22             "1 --"

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we scroll down, please?  Thank

24     you.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "1.  For all persons who are

Page 5076

 1     elderly, sick, and women who found themselves in prisons without having

 2     committed any crimes or without being suspected of any crimes,

 3     immediately provide lists to the State Commission for the Exchange of

 4     Prisoners and the Republic Staff of the Supreme Command in order to

 5     conduct an organised exchange in agreed places, under the supervision and

 6     control of the Republic Commission," et cetera.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   This position they take towards the sick, the elderly, the women,

 9     et cetera, is it same as our position, our altitude towards these people?

10     Did they bring them to be exchanged?  And if they did, did we do the

11     same?

12        A.   I don't know about that, Mr. President, but I do know that there

13     were problems with exchanges, and the presidents of these commissions,

14     the Regional and the Central Commission, were more familiar with this.

15        Q.   Was this signed by Sefer Halilovic?

16        A.   Yes, the first commander of the Patriotic League.

17        Q.   Does this, by definition, rule out able-bodied fighting men or

18     men fit for the army?

19        A.   It does mean that elderly people, sick people, and women were

20     detained in the territory held by the BH Army.

21        Q.   And they were subject to exchange?

22        A.   Yes.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted?

24             JUDGE KWON:  It could be marked for identification, pending

25     translation.

Page 5077

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D433, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  And that may be it for today.

 3             Yes.  Again, we'll sit in the afternoon tomorrow, 2.15.

 4             Have a nice evening.

 5                           [The witness stands down]

 6                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.59 p.m.,

 7                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 14th day of

 8                           July, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.