1 Friday, 20 August 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
5 JUDGE KWON: Good morning to you call. We're going to make two
6 oral rulings, the first of which concerns the accused's oral request
7 regarding the meeting with his expert witness in the holding cell.
8 Mr. Karadzic, the Chamber has consulted with various organs of
9 the registry concerning your request to have your Defence expert meet
10 with you in the holding cell during breaks. The Registry has agreed that
11 it can accommodate this request on the understanding that it is only in
12 those cases where the Chamber has issued a decision granting a request
13 from you that a specific Defence expert should be permitted in the
14 courtroom during the testimony of a certain Prosecution witness or
15 witnesses, that such authorisation is given.
16 Furthermore, you must make a request through the pro se officer
17 that you wish to avail yourself of this possibility in each case at least
18 two working days in advance of the relevant Defence expert being present
19 so that his or her name can be added to the list of persons permitted
20 entry to the holding cells with you. This is to ensure that security has
21 at least 24 hours notice of any addition to that list. In addition, your
22 Defence expert must be accompanied at all times when he or she is in the
23 holding cell by one of your privileged legal associates. At any time,
24 only two people, in addition to yourself, i.e., three in total, will be
25 permitted in the holding cell.
1 Should you have any questions or require further clarification
2 about the procedure to be followed, please address those questions to the
3 Registry through the pro se officer.
4 On a related note, I have been asked to advise you that due to an
5 oversight yesterday, Dr. Subotic was permitted to sit directly beside you
6 in the courtroom. As you know, this is not the normal procedure, and
7 your assigned legal -- associate sits at a certain distance from you. In
8 future, whenever Dr. Subotic or other permitted Defence experts are in
9 the courtroom, they will sit in the usual place beside your assigned
10 associates. Again, any questions in this regard should be addressed to
11 the Registry.
12 Second ruling concerns the Prosecution motion for leave to amend
13 it's Rule 65 ter exhibit list regarding authentication of the Mladic
15 On 17th August 2010
16 leave from the Chamber to amend it's Rule 65 ter exhibit list by adding
17 to it three reports which it wishes to use with the next witness,
18 Mr. Tomasz Blaszczyk. The reports were authored by the Serbian
19 authorities, and they describe the date, the time, and the locations of
20 the seizures of items from the Belgrade
21 wife of General Ratko Mladic, during searches conducted by the
22 authorities at the end of 2009 and early 2010. The reports also provide
23 inventories of the items seized.
24 The accused filed his response to the Prosecution's request on
25 18th of August. He does not oppose the addition of -- addition of two of
1 these three reports but does oppose the addition of the third. He notes
2 that the third report with Rule 65 ter number 22939 is a 440-page
3 document which "purports to describe the contents of approximately 100
4 recordings" disclosed to him on 4th of August, 2010, and in respect of
5 which he has not had adequate time to review.
6 In his motion on the suspension of proceedings, the accused
7 indicates his belief that these recordings may contain recordings of some
8 of the meetings described in notebooks, ostensibly written by
9 Ratko Mladic, which were also seized by Serbian authorities from
10 Mrs. Mladic's residence.
11 As is clear from Prosecution's motion, as well as its
12 notification for him, Tomasz Blaszczyk is being brought by the
13 Prosecution at this stage to provide evidence going to authenticity of
14 the notebooks and the three reports are to be used in this context only.
15 As such, the content of the recordings noted in the third report will not
16 be at issue. In this regard, while Tomasz Blaszczyk may testify that
17 certain documents and videos corroborate the information contained in the
18 notebooks, it appears from the witness's notification that these items do
19 not include the recordings referred to in the third report. Since Tomasz
20 Blaszczyk's evidence will not deal with the recordings, the Chamber is
21 satisfied that it is not necessary for the accused to have reviewed them
22 before the addition of the report to the Prosecution's exhibit list and
23 that he will not suffer prejudice by not having yet reviewed them.
24 The Chamber considers that in providing information as to the
25 circumstances in which the notebook was seized, including the dates of
1 the seizures and the other material taken with notebooks, the three
2 reports are prima facie relevant to the present case. The Chamber has
3 also considered when the three reports were disclosed to the accused and
4 their subject matter. Therefore, it is satisfied that the Prosecution
5 has shown good cause for its request and that the three reports are of
6 sufficient importance to justify their late addition to its exhibit list.
7 As such, the Chamber finds that it is in the interest of justice to grant
8 the Prosecution leave to add the three reports to its exhibit list.
9 However, as the Chamber has stated previously, the addition of
10 documents to an exhibit list and their admission into evidence are
11 different matters. It is not clear to the Chamber at this moment how the
12 three reports assist with the authentication of the notebooks. Before
13 exploring this further, the Chamber would like to hear from Mr. Karadzic.
14 Mr. Karadzic, as you know, the Prosecution is of the view that
15 the notebooks were authored by Ratko Mladic. Do you accept this or do
16 you intend to challenge the authenticity of the notebooks?
17 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. If I can answer that on
18 Dr. Karadzic's behalf. We're putting the Prosecution to its proof to see
19 whether or not they can prove or it's established that -- through the
20 testimony of this next witness with -- that these notebooks were authored
21 by General Mladic. After the testimony of the witness and the
22 cross-examination of Dr. Karadzic, we'll give you a clear answer to that.
23 JUDGE KWON: Then I would like to ask the Prosecution or hear
24 from the Prosecution as to how these three reports and particularly the
25 third report with the Rule 65 ter number 22939 will assist in
1 establishing the authenticity of the notebooks.
2 MR. NICHOLLS: Good morning, Your Honours. Briefly, first of all
3 I had a discussion with Mr. Robinson yesterday and told him that I do not
4 intend in my direct examination to use 22939, the large list. I intend
5 to use the other two -- the other inventory reports. The way that I
6 believe they may be helpful, and I have a handout which shows this, is
7 that -- is simply for chain of custody, that we're able to establish that
8 the notebooks that we now have in our evidence unit appear on the
9 inventory list as the notebooks which were taken in the two searches from
10 General Mladic's wife's apartment. So these contemporaneous inventory
11 lists created by the Serbian MUP show that on the dates of the searches
12 these items were taken from that particular residence and that they are
13 the same items which were ultimately received by the OTP. So it is
14 mainly a matter of chain of custody.
15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you Mr. Nicholls.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber considers that this limited purpose of
18 your line of question may be appropriate and we will keep in mind your
20 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.
21 JUDGE KWON: Then we can proceed with the evidence of Mr. Tomasz
22 Blaszczyk. Let's bring in the witness.
23 MR. NICHOLLS: And, Your Honour, if I may in connection with the
24 subject we've just discussed, I have a handout, a copy of which I've
25 already given to Mr. Robinson, which is not an exhibit. It's simply an
1 aid which correlates the 65 ter numbers to the numbers on the inventory
2 sheets of the -- of the notebooks that we're talking about today.
3 [The witness entered court]
4 WITNESS: TOMASZ BLASZCZYK
5 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, Mr. Blaszczyk. Forgive my
6 pronunciation. If you'd take the solemn declaration, please.
7 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
8 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
9 JUDGE KWON: Please make yourself comfortable.
10 Now, Mr. Nicholls, it's your witness.
11 Examination by Mr. Nicholls:
12 Q. Good morning, Mr. Blaszczyk.
13 A. Good morning, sir.
14 Q. Today, as you know, what we're going to discuss is solely the
15 notebooks authored by General Ratko Mladic which were taken in two
16 searches from the apartment of his wife on 4 December 2008, and then on
17 23 February 2010
18 please, a brief, very brief, summary of your background in law
19 enforcement up to and including your work here at the ICTY.
20 A. I am -- I am from Poland
21 since 1981 till 2003. At the beginning the police force in Poland
22 used to work as the uniform police officer. And since 1990 I used to
23 work in criminal division of police, national police.
24 Q. And could you very briefly describe your service in the former
1 A. And while I was in police officer in Poland, I was deployed to
2 Bosnia-Herzegovina three times as IPTF police officer, international
3 police officer. IPTF mission in Bosnia and Herzegovina was part of
4 United Nations mission in Bosnia-Herzegovina between 1996 and 2003 as I
5 do remember, and once I was deployed to Croatia, to former Krajina, or
6 so-called Krajina, in 1992.
7 Q. And you've been an investigator in the Office of the Prosecutor
8 here since January 2003; is that correct?
9 A. Yes, this is correct.
10 Q. What I'd like to do now is talk about the first search.
11 MR. NICHOLLS: And, Your Honours, just to be clear, these -- this
12 concerns five notebooks which were not on our motion to amend the 65 ter
13 exhibit list. However, the issues are similar, so I will briefly cover
14 the authenticity of these five notebooks as well.
15 JUDGE KWON: I don't see any problem, Mr. Nicholls.
16 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you. And if I could at this time hand out
17 this handout to the parties and one to the witness.
18 Q. Now, Mr. Blaszczyk, concerning the first search, can you tell us
19 the date and location that that search took place?
20 A. The first search when some material was seized took place on the
21 4 December 2008
22 General Ratko Mladic family. Now his wife, Bosiljka Mladic lives in this
23 house and his son as well. The house is located in Belgrade, at the
24 district Blagoje Parovic 117A.
25 Q. Thank you. And have you received inventory sheets from the
1 Serbian MUP who conducted the search of the items taken during that
2 initial first search?
3 A. Yes, we did receive such sheet.
4 Q. Okay.
5 MR. NICHOLLS: If I could 22942, please. While we wait for that
6 to appear ...
7 That's in e-court. Excuse me, if I could have 65 ter 22942 on
8 the screen.
9 Q. All right, Mr. Blaszczyk. Could you just -- you've seen this
10 document before; correct?
11 A. Yes, that's correct.
12 Q. Could you just tell us what we're looking at?
13 A. This is receipt prepared by the officers of Serbian MUP. The
14 receipt was prepared on the 4 December 2008
15 house of belongs to Mladic Bosiljka, and this receipt, in fact, itemised
16 items seized at that time by the officers from Serbian MUP.
17 Q. Okay. And if we could go to the second page, please. And then
18 to the third page, please. And the final page in -- yes. Thank you.
19 And can you tell us who signed off on this handwritten inventory
21 A. As I see here, it was signed out by -- I believe by Bosiljka
22 Mladic and by officer who conducted the search.
23 Q. All right. Thank you.
24 MR. NICHOLLS: Could we now go to page 22 of this same exhibit.
25 22 in English, page 19 in the B/C/S.
1 Q. All right. We now have a document from the 12th of December,
2 2008, also in Belgrade
3 A. This document was prepared few days after the search was
4 conducted. Exact in this document we have itemise the things which were
5 search -- which were -- were seized at Bosiljka Mladic house and later on
6 packed in a box, cardboard box, and taken to the police station, and this
7 receipt was prepare also by the officer of -- officers of Serbian MUP and
8 confirm as far as I remember, if you look at the last page, by son of
9 Ratko Mladic, Darko Mladic. And exactly in this -- this, if I can -- in
10 this receipt we -- we see items as contain in box number 35. If we look
11 at the first receipt which we saw just few seconds ago, we see that at
12 Bosiljka house, Mladic -- Bosiljka Mladic house was seized one box
13 containing the documents. This is the contents of these documents.
14 Q. Okay.
15 MR. NICHOLLS: And could we go to page 25 of the English and 21
16 of the B/C/S.
17 Q. And there we see is that the signature of Darko Mladic being
18 present as this inventory sheet was compiled?
19 A. Yes, this is correct. This is signature of Darko Mladic and
20 signature of the lawyer who also attended this review.
21 Q. Okay. And just to be clear then, the 4th of December inventory
22 list we saw earlier, the handwritten one, is that one compiled at the
23 residence of the documents taken and the one we're looking at now is a
24 more detailed inventory once they have -- the MUP have opened the boxes
25 seized in the residence and examined the contents?
1 A. Is correct. The boxes were opened at the MUP premises in
3 Q. Okay. Now, one final question. On the date of search on 4th
4 December to your knowledge, was anybody from the OTP present?
5 A. No, nobody from OTP was present during the search.
6 Q. Okay. Now, looking at the list we have in front us from 12
7 December and considering the five documents taken during that search
8 which have our 65 ter number 13416, 19023, 19022, 13452, and 13450, are
9 you able to tell the Trial Chamber where those items appear on the MUP
10 inventory list?
11 A. Yes, I am able, but I would like to go back to one page, please.
12 MR. NICHOLLS: If we could go back to page 22 in the English, 19
13 in the B/C/S.
14 THE WITNESS: On the first page of -- of the receipt from 12
15 December 2008, at item 6 there is a mention one blue workbook with 27
16 textual pages. According to the list we prepared later on, this is --
17 this is 65 ter number 13416. And if you look at item 7, this is
18 mentioned here one notebook reading Cvilja [phoen] Celinac with ten
19 textual pages. Also this notebook is marked here as 65 ter 19023.
20 Can we go to next page, please. I mean English.
21 From the second page of English translation of this document and
22 the first page of the original document under the number 8, we have one
23 brown letter agenda reading "Nis
24 And under number, from English translation, 11 is mentioned one
25 workbook with red covers. This has our -- I mean, 65 ter number 19022.
1 And under number 17 from the receipt from the 12 December 2008,
2 is mention one brown workbook with textual pages. This is from English
3 translation. This is -- I think this is second page of the original
4 document. And this document has 65 ter number 13450.
5 MR. NICHOLLS:
6 Q. Thank you. Can you now tell us -- briefly give us a little bit
7 of the chronology of how the OTP came to receive these materials.
8 Speaking now of the first search in 2008.
9 A. As we know, the search was conducted on 4 December 2008. The
10 ICTY, the OTP has been informed by memo from the Serbian authorities on 4
11 February 2009, and on 25th February 2009, we received a scanned version
12 of the seized material. We received the scanned version of the seized
13 material on various DVDs, CDs. This material was accessible for
14 investigation team in March, I believe it was on 17 March, 2009, and
15 after that after reviewing the received scanned material, we requested
16 Serbian authorities to get the originals of -- of the seized material.
17 And first, as far as I remember, it was 25, 26 March 2009, I went
18 to Belgrade
19 MUP, and at that time I selected the most important -- I believe at that
20 time the most important material, useful material for our investigation.
21 It was five notebooks which were discussed few minutes ago and plus four
22 video-tapes, and on 27 March, 2007
23 material to The Hague
24 submitted to evidence unit here in The Hague.
25 The remaining material I return to Belgrade few days later. I
1 think it was on 6th of April, 2009, and the remaining material I received
2 from Serbian authorities on 7 April 2009
3 think I arrived by road, by car, I transported this material to The Hague
4 and also located this material to -- in our evidence unit.
5 Q. And did you have sole custody of the notebooks from the time you
6 picked them up in Belgrade
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. -- processing?
9 A. The entire time since the time I have received this material from
10 deputy war crime Prosecutor from Belgrade
11 in my custody. Only I had access to this material. I kept this material
12 till 30 March 2009
13 evidence unit here in The Hague
14 Q. Thank you. I'd now like to start discussing --
15 MR. NICHOLLS: Well, Your Honours, at this time I'd ask to -- I
16 would tender that inventory sheet, and I neglected to say earlier that of
17 course the location from which items of evidence are seized is also
18 relevant to their authenticity, and this -- these chain of documents from
19 the Serbian MUP establish that the items were in fact taken from the
20 address in Belgrade
21 would be another relevant factor to their authenticity.
22 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson, do you have any objection to the
23 65 ter number 22942?
24 MR. ROBINSON: No, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE KWON: This will be admitted as evidence.
1 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1455, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Exhibit P1455.
3 THE REGISTRAR: P1455.
4 MR. NICHOLLS:
5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Blaszczyk. I'd like to now move to what I'll be
6 referring to as the second search.
7 MR. NICHOLLS: If I could have 65 ter number 22941 brought up,
8 please, page 1 in both English and B/C/S.
9 Q. All right. Mr. Blaszczyk, while we are I think still waiting for
10 the B/C/S to come up, could you tell us what we have here on the
11 right-hand side of the screen. It's titled "Confirmation Regarding
12 Temporarily Seized Items," 23rd February, 2010?
13 A. This -- this is receipt prepared also by the members of Serbian
14 MUP, receipt containing items seized from Bosiljka Mladic house in
15 Belgrade Blagoje Parovic Street 117A. The receipt was prepared on 23
16 February 2010, and if we look at the last page of this -- this receipt,
17 we can see the signature of Bosiljka Mladic.
18 Q. Okay. And I'm not sure we have the correct document on the
19 left-hand side.
20 A. On the screen is still document from 2008.
21 Q. Yes.
22 MR. NICHOLLS: We need 22941 in B/C/S on the left, please.
23 JUDGE KWON: I'm advised there is some problem with the sequence
24 of the page in B/C/S.
25 MR. NICHOLLS: I was not aware of that. I thought this was just
1 a single three page in e-court. I have a hard copy in the B/C/S if we
2 could perhaps put that on the ELMO then.
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Let's try that. I think it's in e-court. It
4 should be page 4 in B/C/S.
5 MR. NICHOLLS:
6 Q. Well, in any event, Mr. Blaszczyk, we can continue while we wait
7 for that to come up. Can you tell us again where was this inventory
8 sheet completed, at the home at the time of the search or at a later
10 A. This inventory was completed at the home at the time when the
11 search was conducted.
12 Q. And again you stated this was signed Ms. -- by Ratko Mladic's
13 wife, on the last page; correct?
14 A. Yes, is correct, but if you look at the last page of the
15 original, we can see her signature.
16 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, again, the notebooks taken in this
17 search on 23rd February, 2010, from the residence in Belgrade, they have
18 our 65 ter numbers 22838, 839, 840, 841, 842, 843, 844, 845, 846, 847,
19 848, 849, 850, 851, and 852.
20 Were you able to correlate those notebooks that we have in our
21 evidence unit and that received and processed with the ones listed --
22 with the items listed on the inventory sheet compiled at the place and
23 time of the search?
24 A. Yes, I am able and this is quite easy because we prepare the
25 spreadsheet mentioning our 65 ter list number, ter number and moving
1 inventory list number, and as we see -- but I have to look at the
2 original or the English translation. Okay. I'm -- I will support myself
3 with the spreadsheet we have.
4 Q. Could we have the English on the screen for the witness.
5 A. Can we go to the page number 3 English translation. Okay. Our
6 evidence of 65 ter number 22838 is listed here in this receipt as number
7 41, "Brick red work notebook with JNA emblem with 394 pages of
8 handwritten text."
9 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nicholls, I now note that e-court has been
10 corrected to reflect the correct version of B/C/S.
11 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honour. If we could have that --
12 I see that now.
13 Q. And, Mr. Blaszczyk, you've already put together these numbers.
14 If you could just for the record go through and correlate the -- our
15 65 ter numbers to the items on the inventory sheet.
16 A. 65 ter 22839, this is notebook listed in original receipt as
17 notebook number 39, is in original receipt is mentioned as "Brick red
18 work notebook with JNA emblem with 399 pages of handwritten text."
19 65 ter number 22840, this is notebook listed in the original
20 receipt as notebook number 40 and mentioned here like -- here as
21 "Bordhaus red work notebook with JNA emblem with 396 pages of handwritten
22 text in which there is a letter from FAD, and 2 small sheets of paper
23 with handwritten text."
24 65 ter number 22841 is listed in original receipt as item number
25 37 "Red work notebook with JNA emblem with 180 handwritten pages in which
1 there are 4 handwritten notes."
2 Q. If I could stop you for a second, Mr. Blaszczyk, I will be
3 attempting to tender the inventory sheets, so you don't need to read all
4 the descriptions. If you could just confirm for us which 65 ter numbers
5 correlate to the item numbers on the inventory sheet, but you don't need
6 to read all the descriptions because I will be trying to put that into
8 A. Yes, I can confirm it.
9 Q. And could you just continue with the numbers then. I think we
10 were up to 22842?
11 A. And 22843 is correlated to item number 46; 22844 to number 30;
12 22845 to number 56; 22846 to number 44; 22847 to number 55; 22848 to
13 number 51; 22849 to number 54; 22850 to number 29; 22851 to number 52;
14 22852 to number 28; and there is three notebooks which are not on 65 ter
15 exhibit list, yeah.
16 Q. And just if I could go back. Number 22842, that corresponds to
17 number 33 on the inventory list; is that right?
18 JUDGE KWON: I think he --
19 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes.
20 JUDGE KWON: Would you like to go through all of them.
21 MR. NICHOLLS: No, Your Honour I think we've got it now. I just
22 thought 22842 had not --
23 JUDGE KWON: 22842 is 33.
24 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes.
25 JUDGE KWON: How about 22845? Was the item number in the
1 inventory list.
2 THE WITNESS: 22845 --
3 JUDGE KWON: [Overlapping speakers] This is number 36.
4 THE WITNESS: -- this is number 36.
5 JUDGE KWON: 36, but you said 56.
6 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, I think that's an error in the transcript.
7 Thank you, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE KWON: No, he pronounced it like that. And 22847?
9 THE WITNESS: This is number 35.
10 JUDGE KWON: You said 55. And 2848?
11 THE WITNESS: This is number 31.
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes. And 22849?
13 THE WITNESS: Number 34.
14 JUDGE KWON: And 22851?
15 THE WITNESS: Number 32.
16 JUDGE KWON: Yes, it was recorded as 52 as well.
17 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, if I may, if there's no objection, I
18 would move to just enter this. Perhaps we could make this an exhibit.
19 It might be helpful to the parties, the correlation sheet, if there is no
20 objection from the Defence.
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes. You mean the 65 ter 22941 or --
22 MR. NICHOLLS: I mean the handout which I have passed out, if we
23 could assign that a number.
24 JUDGE KWON: I think -- unless there is an objection? There's
25 no -- yes. We'll admit them both.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter number 22941 will be
2 Exhibit P1456, and the handout will be Exhibit P1457.
3 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
4 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honours.
5 Q. Now, based on your investigation and your knowledge of the search
6 and how it was conducted, did General Mladic's wife mark or write in any
7 of these seized notebooks before they were taken into custody by the MUP
8 at the time of the search? In other words, as the search was being
9 conducted, did she mark the notebooks in any way?
10 A. Yes, but it happened in the search conducted on 23 February 2010,
11 and she paginated all the notebooks, and he -- she signed also -- she
12 confirmed the number of the pages of each notebook at the end of the
14 Q. Okay.
15 MR. NICHOLLS: Could I have 65 ter 22840, please, in e-court.
16 All right. If we can just keep that first page up for a minute.
17 Q. While we're on it, Mr. Blaszczyk, can you tell us who put on
18 the -- where that Post-It note the with the "40" comes from?
19 A. The officer of Serbian MUP.
20 Q. Okay. That was there when we received the item?
21 A. Yes, is correct. How the -- how the evidence was marked by the
22 Serbian MUP and we receive in this shape.
23 MR. NICHOLLS: Could we now go to the very last page, 405.
24 Simply showing the back cover of the notebook. And -- that's right.
25 Could we leave that on the English. That's page 400 of the English we're
1 looking at. Could we now look at page 404 of the B/C/S, original.
2 Q. Now, we see on the screen there, is that the certification by
3 Bosiljka Mladic that you were just explaining to us?
4 A. Yes. This is correct. This is certification and confirmation of
5 Bosiljka Mladic that this book contains 396 pages, handwritten pages.
6 Q. And did you receive any information of why these books were
7 marked in this way, these notebooks, by General Mladic's wife?
8 A. I did receive this information yesterday. According to
9 information we received from Serbs, Bosiljka Mladic considers this
10 notebooks as very important notebooks, and this is why she insisted to
11 paginate these notebooks and confirm the number of the pages at the end
12 of each notebook.
13 Q. All right. Thank you. I'm done with that exhibit.
14 And again very briefly, if you could explain to the Trial Chamber
15 just a quick chronology of how the OTP came into possession of these
16 original notebooks from the December search -- from the 2010 search,
17 excuse me?
18 A. The notebooks, this material was seized during the search of the
19 house of Bosiljka Mladic in 23 February 2010
20 ICTY received also scanned version of -- of the seized material on the
21 hard drive, and the original material was handed over to our ICTY field
22 office, to our investigator from ICTY field office in Belgrade on 27
23 April 2010, and later on I arrived to Belgrade and together with this
24 investigator I transported entire material to -- to The Hague. It was
25 done between 10 and 11 May 2010
1 material to our evidence unit here in The Hague.
2 Since the material was handed over by Serbian authority to our
3 investigator from the field office, this material was accessible only to
4 our investigator from the field office. Nobody else had access to this
5 material. When I arrived to the Belgrade
6 the field office we counted -- we checked again the inventory list of the
7 Serbian MUP. We unpacked the boxes received by them. We counted the
8 seized items, and we packed it again, and the following day we
9 transported it to The Hague
10 Q. And now we're not going to discuss it today, but just to be clear
11 for the record, there were many other items seized as well during the 23
12 February 2010 search?
13 A. Is correct. Is correct. There were many items, not only
14 notebook but also other material.
15 Q. Now, discussing the notebooks which were -- that we're talking
16 about now from the second search in 2010, after the OTP received the
17 scans of the notebook from the MUP, did you take any steps, conduct any
18 interviews to authenticate who had written these notebooks?
19 A. Yes. On 26, 27 April 2010
20 General Manojlo Milovanovic, and we showed him -- we produced to him the
21 copy, of course, the copy of -- the scanned version of the seized
22 notebooks, 17 notebooks.
23 Q. And just briefly for the record, who is General Milovanovic?
24 What was his position?
25 A. General Manojlo Milovanovic, this was Chief of Staff of the Main
1 Staff of Army of Republika Srpska and deputy commander of the Army of
2 Republika Srpska. He was directly subordinated to General Ratko Mladic.
3 Q. And how long was -- during the war was General Milovanovic
4 subordinated directly to General Ratko Mladic?
5 A. According to General Milovanovic, he was -- he know -- he knew
6 General Mladic since 1981 even, I think, but he was directly subordinated
7 to him, he was his deputy, since the beginning of the war, since May
8 2002, since the Republika Srpska Army was created, till the end of the
10 Q. And I think that's May 1992.
11 A. 1992. Sorry.
12 Q. And was General -- what determination did -- was
13 General Milovanovic able to make when he reviewed the scanned notebooks?
14 A. As I said, General -- General Milovanovic, while he was here in
15 The Hague
16 notebooks, and he had time to review entire scanned version of these
17 notebooks, and he confirm that in chart, which we have in his statement,
18 he confirmed that most of the pages are the pages handwritten by General
19 Ratko Mladic. General Milovanovic work with General Ratko Mladic on
20 daily basis. He participated most of the meetings from which
21 General Mladic was present while he was writing down the notes, and he is
22 very familiar, as he said, with his handwritings.
23 Q. And when you met General Milovanovic in April of this year, did
24 you discuss at all the five notebooks from the earlier search, from 2008?
25 Did he comments on those and who had written those notebooks?
1 A. I remember when I met General Milovanovic here in The Hague
2 25th, 20 -- 26th, 27th, I think, April, I brought these five notebooks
3 from the first seizure with me to the interviewing room, and
4 General Milovanovic had opportunity to see these notebooks, but he
5 confirmed that he reviewed these notebooks during the meeting with my
6 investigator colleague in Banja Luka one year before. It was -- I
7 believe it was June 2009. And he confirmed that he -- he had opportunity
8 to see these notebooks in -- the same notebooks I brought to our
9 interviewing room, and -- and he confirmed that this is handwritten
10 notebooks, handwritten text, done by General Ratko Mladic.
11 MR. NICHOLLS: And for the record, Your Honour, those five
12 notebooks are 65 ter numbers 13416, 19023, 19022, 13452, and 13450 from
13 the first search.
14 Q. And you stated that General Milovanovic stated he recognised in
15 the scans that most of the handwriting was of General Mladic. Was the
16 other handwriting -- what was that? Was that letters, other documents
17 that had been inside the covers of the notebooks?
18 A. Exactly. They were another document just slipped inside the
19 notebooks, but at that time we were in possession only on -- of the
20 scanned version of -- of these documents. In fact, we didn't know
21 exactly what is -- what is the part the page of the notebook, what the
22 slipped piece of paper or page to the notebook.
23 Q. All right. I'd like to now --
24 MR. NICHOLLS: If I could ask the Defence to give me back a piece
25 of evidence which I gave to them this morning to inspect. If the usher
1 could help me. If we could hand that to the witness, please.
2 And for the record, the witness has been given the notebook with
3 ERN 13452.
4 Can you just tell us quickly which -- what -- what that is before
5 you and which search that was taken in?
6 A. This is ERN 06490326, I think, starting, and this is notebook
7 seized by Serbian MUP in the search from 4 December 2008.
8 Q. And that's an original copy?
9 A. Yes, this is original notebook seized at that time.
10 Q. Okay of the I'd like to show a video now, please. That's 40241A.
11 [Video-clip played]
12 "Colonel Karremans: Our own medicines are almost zero --"
13 MR. NICHOLLS: Can we stop, please, for one moment.
14 THE WITNESS: Sorry, I have no broadcast of this video.
15 MR. NICHOLLS: If we could start it again for the witness.
16 [Video-clip played]
17 "Colonel Karremans: Our own medicines are almost zero."
18 MR. NICHOLLS: Can we stop please now.
19 Q. I think you're very familiar with this video, Mr. Blaszczyk. Can
20 you just tell us -- we're only playing a short one-minute clip, but where
21 is this video taken from and who do we see here in the first frame?
22 A. This is a video recorded during the meeting of General Mladic and
23 other officers of Army of Republika Srpska with DutchBat commander and
24 Muslim representative in Bratunac. This meeting took place on 11 July
25 1995. It was the second meeting in Bratunac, in Hotel Fontana.
1 Q. Right. And we're at 1:24:03
3 A. Right now on the screen I see the interpreter who is translating
4 the words of Colonel Karremans, the commander of the DutchBat from
5 Potocari. He's on the right side, the man with uniform.
6 MR. NICHOLLS: All right. Could we continue playing, please.
7 [Video-clip played]
8 "Colonel Karremans: The only thing what I can do is the two
9 surgery teams. They have done it in the afternoon and tonight is a big
10 surgery, but that's only for a couple of persons and then the medicines
11 for those special surgery is left as well."
12 MR. NICHOLLS: Could we stop for one moment, please. We're at
14 Q. Now, as we look at the screen there's a man in uniform with
15 glasses taking notes. Can you tell us who that person is?
16 A. Yes. This is Colonel Radoslav Jankovic, the head of intelligence
17 service of the Army of Republika Srpska.
18 MR. NICHOLLS: Continue playing, please.
19 [Video-clip played]
20 "Colonel Karremans: If I may say so, sir..."
21 MR. NICHOLLS: Please stop here at 1:24:41.
22 Q. Quite obvious, but who -- who do we see in the clip we just saw
23 some footage of, the man on the left writing in a notebook?
24 A. On this footage, on this still we see General Ratko Mladic taking
25 notes in his notebooks. I believe this is this notebook, the entry from
1 this notebook corroborate to this video.
2 MR. NICHOLLS: Okay. Could we continue just playing to the end
3 of this short clip.
4 [Video-clip played]
5 "Colonel Karremans: I think that the evacuation of the wounded
6 could be the second thing to be organised."
7 MR. NICHOLLS: Okay. And we stop here at 1:24:55 where
8 General Mladic has just finished taking notes on the bottom right hand
9 page of the notebook he's writing in as Colonel Karremans has been
10 explaining that an evacuation needs to be carried out.
11 Could we now have 65 ter 13452 in e-court, please.
12 JUDGE KWON: In the time, can the Chamber take a look at the
14 MR. NICHOLLS: Of course, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE KWON: Let's proceed. We can proceed in the meantime.
16 MR. NICHOLLS: All right. There we see the cover on the left.
17 And can we go to page 224 in the English and page 227 in the B/C/S. I'm
18 just waiting for the B/C/S to come up. All right.
19 Q. Now, we see there that this is an entry for 11 July, Bratunac,
20 meeting with the UN commander in Srebrenica and representatives of the
21 Muslim side, Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans, and it's correct,
22 Mr. Blaszczyk, that General Mladic has written here "Colonel Jankovic
23 took the minutes." Is that the same Jankovic we saw writing notes in the
24 video just a minute ago?
25 A. Yes, that's correct, this is the same Jankovic,
1 Colonel Radoslav Jankovic.
2 Q. Okay.
3 MR. NICHOLLS: And could we go to the next page, please in both
4 the English and the B/C/S. We need the next page in the English. All
6 Now, Your Honours, the English version corresponds to the B/C/S.
7 That's why there's space at the bottom of the page.
8 Q. But we can see here, Mr. Blaszczyk, is that right, that on the
9 bottom right-hand corner of the notebook Mr. -- General Mladic has
10 written notes saying "I have two surgical teams. They performed a few
11 serious operations and used up the medicines. Evacuation of the wounded
12 to be carried out"?
13 A. Yes, is correct, and this corroborated by the video we just saw a
14 few seconds ago.
15 MR. NICHOLLS: And, Your Honours, if you review the video, I
16 won't play it again for time, but the statements that General Karremans
17 is making on that video being translated to General Mladic, it
18 corresponds exactly to his writing at that time in the same portion of
19 the notebook.
20 Could I have 65 ter 90185, please. That's a photograph.
21 Q. All right. Now, that is not bad, but not as clear as in the hard
22 copy if anybody would like to see it.
23 Now, could you tell us why -- well, who prepared this photograph?
24 A. I selected this photograph, but was prepared by our video
1 Q. Okay. Why did you select this photograph? What did you -- why
2 did you choose this image?
3 A. I believe this is the best view of the notebook used by
4 General Ratko Mladic and is visible on the photos -- I think on the
5 printed version is much better -- is better quality at least, that we can
6 see water mark in the shape of the pen which is in original notebook used
7 by -- which we have in our possession. Is exactly the same one. If we
8 look the original and we see this water mark, this -- this water mark is
9 visible on this clip in the video.
10 Q. And if I could now ask to put on the ELMO just so that it's very
11 clear the -- I'm putting up pages 06490552 and 06490553 of the original
12 notebook which is the first page of General Mladic's, excuse me, notes on
13 the 11 July Fontana
14 If we can pan out a little bit. If we could bring it out a bit
15 so that we can see both full pages.
16 So in the photograph which we just saw, Mr. Blaszczyk, you
17 selected that because one can see that watermarks of the two pens on the
18 top of the two pages; is that right?
19 A. Yes, this is correct. And also in the previous clip we played
20 just few seconds ago we see that General Mladic is writing down the notes
21 regarding these two surgical teams and the wounded person, and he's
22 writing this information on -- on the right-hand side page.
23 Q. Okay.
24 MR. NICHOLLS: Could I ask Your Honours to tender 40241A, the
25 video-clip, as well as the photo still which is 90185.
1 JUDGE KWON: I take it that video 40241A should be the -- an
2 excerpt from the entire video.
3 MR. NICHOLLS: Correct, Your Honour. That's just -- if I'm
4 correct, that's just the -- that is the number which sub -- 65 ter number
5 we have assigned to that expert which is from the larger video which is
6 on our 65 ter list.
7 JUDGE KWON: But the time-frame you referred to, such as 1:24:03
8 seems to be the time-frame in the entire video.
9 MR. NICHOLLS: Correct, but --
10 JUDGE KWON: So when you tender you will excerpt only those
12 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes. Yes. Just that part, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE KWON: And then the time-frame you referred to will not
14 match with the video you will tender, but that -- given the time period
15 is very short, I don't see any problem.
16 Do you have any objection, Mr. Robinson?
17 So we'll admit them both, the video as well as the still taken
18 from the video.
19 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.
20 JUDGE KWON: We'll give the number.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the video extract with 65 ter
22 number 40241A will be Exhibit P1458, and 65 ter 90185 will be
23 Exhibit P1459.
24 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
25 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you. I'd now like to show another very
1 short video-clip. This has been assigned our number 40032A.
2 [Video-clip played]
3 MR. NICHOLLS: Can we stop for a minute.
4 Q. Can you tell us, Mr. Blaszczyk, the date and location of this
6 A. This video was recorded in Boksanica. This is place near Zepa.
7 On 19 July 1995
8 population and the members of the Army of Republika Srpska and Ukrainian
10 Q. We had stopped at -- well, I'll read the number 12:29:3, and we
11 can't see all of them in the picture, but who is that on the right
12 holding a notebook of some type?
13 A. Well, we see the hands of General Ratko Mladic right now holding
14 his hands -- General Ratko Mladic holding his hands on the notebook. I
15 believe this is this notebook. Also in this notebook we have entry from
16 this meeting.
17 Q. Okay. And could we -- I'm sorry, maybe go back because this is a
18 very short clip. Play it again from the beginning.
19 [Video-clip played]
20 MR. NICHOLLS: Can we stop there for one moment. 12:05. Who is
21 that in the front, the man with the large moustache?
22 A. This is Colonel Svetozar Kosoric, he's intelligence officer from
23 the Drina
24 MR. NICHOLLS: Can we continue, please.
25 [Video-clip played]
1 MR. NICHOLLS: Can we stop there for one moment.
2 Q. Who is the man with the beard we see on the screen?
3 A. This is representative of the Muslim population from Zepa. His
4 name is Benjamin Kulovac, doctor from Zepa.
5 MR. NICHOLLS: Can we continue, please. That was at 12:41
7 [Video-clip played]
8 MR. NICHOLLS: Can we stop there.
9 Q. And who is the man on the left of the screen with the coat draped
10 over his holders?
11 A. Another representative of the Muslim population from Zepa,
12 Mr. Hamdija Torlak.
13 Q. And we see there on this shot at 12:45 that General Mladic now
14 has his notebook open. Could we just continue to the end of the clip.
15 Oh, that is the end. Thank you.
16 And having reviewed this video, we only saw him from the back,
17 but can you tell us looking at the whole video any other senior VRS
18 officer who was present, along with General Mladic and with Kosoric?
19 A. Yes. It's visible this. On this part of the video we see only
20 the backside of General Zdravko Tolimir, but also there was present
21 Colonel Milutinovic. He's press officer from the Army of Republika
22 Srpska, from the high-ranking officer, another officer from the Rogatica
24 MR. NICHOLLS: All right. And if we could now have on e-court
25 again 65 ter 13452. That is the same original notebook which I've
1 brought in, Your Honours. Page 228 of the English, 231 of the B/C/S.
2 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Blaszczyk, for our convenience if you could turn
3 the pages of the notebook on the original so that we can see on the ELMO.
4 Thank you.
5 MR. NICHOLLS:
6 Q. All right. Very simply, Mr. Blaszczyk, here we have the entry
7 from Wednesday, 19 July 1995, Boksanica mountain, from General Mladic's
8 notebook. Same month as the last video we saw. Meeting with
9 representatives of the Muslim population from Zepa. And just to confirm,
10 Hamdija Torlak and Benjamin Kulovac. Are those the two gentleman we just
11 saw on the video?
12 A. Yes. They were just these two gentlemens with civilian clothes
13 we saw on the video.
14 Q. And we also saw General Mladic, Generals -- the back of
15 General Tolimir, and Lieutenant-Colonel Kosoric?
16 A. Yes, correct. We saw General Mladic, of course, on this
17 individual, General Tolimir, Colonel Svetozar Kosoric, and as well we saw
18 the member of the Ukrainian battalion, Colonel Dudnjik.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honours, if I could tender that video-clip
21 40032A and, as you noted, Your Honour, the time-frames I've read
22 apparently won't match because the clip didn't start with 0.
23 JUDGE KWON: Very well. We'll admit it.
24 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1460, Your Honours.
25 MR. NICHOLLS: And one final -- sorry. Before we leave this
1 could I show photo 90187, a photo from this meeting. Thank you.
2 Q. Now, Mr. Blaszczyk, having reviewed the video, can you confirm
3 that this is a still taken from that video, just from a portion that
4 wasn't included in the clip we saw?
5 A. Yes, this is correct. This is a still taken from the video we
6 saw just before. Not entire video but part of the video, but I review
7 entire video several times.
8 Q. All right.
9 A. And we see here General Tolimir, Ratko Mladic, of course; officer
10 from logistic branch from Rogatica Brigade, Colonel Milutinovic and
11 Colonels -- the intelligence officer, and two representatives of the
12 Muslim population from Zepa.
13 Q. All right. And just to be very clear, which -- the individual --
14 which individual is General Tolimir?
15 A. This is -- this is the man sitting next to General Mladic on his
16 left hand.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MR. NICHOLLS: If I could give that a number, please, Your
20 JUDGE KWON: That will be Exhibit P1461.
21 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you. Your Honour, I'm now going into the
22 last part. I'm sorry I've gone over the hour I anticipated. There's not
23 much more. Some corroborating material I'll try to go through quite
25 JUDGE KWON: How much more do you need?
1 MR. NICHOLLS: I think less than half an hour.
2 JUDGE KWON: Then we better take a break right now.
3 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.
4 JUDGE KWON: We'll break about 20 minutes. We'll resume at 10 to
6 --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.
7 --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.
8 JUDGE KWON: Please continue, Mr. Nicholls.
9 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honours. During the break what's
10 been passed out and you should have before you and all the parties is a
11 hard copy of 65 ter 22943. This is the chart which was notified on the
12 list of exhibits to be used with the witness correlating documents taken
13 from various sources, various types of documents, to diary entries.
14 Q. Mr. Blaszczyk, do you have a copy of that chart in front of you?
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. Can you confirm that you have reviewed all of the documents
17 listed in this chart and matched them to the diary entries listed along
18 with them in the chart?
19 A. Is correct. I reviewed all these documents mentioned here in
20 this chart.
21 Q. And were you able to confirm that the chart accurately reflects
22 the documents you reviewed and the diary entries?
23 A. Is correct.
24 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, what I propose to do is now just go
25 through a sample of these entries and matches. The first one is from
1 9 June 1992
2 If we could first have 65 ter 22840 on the screen. English
3 pages -- starting at page 124.
4 Q. All right. And we see here now from General Mladic's notebook
5 entry, "Pale, Tuesday 9 June 1992, at 920 hours, meeting with the
6 Presidency of SR BH." The persons listed as present: Karadzic,
7 Koljevic, Plavsic, Krajisnik, Djeric, Mladic, Gvero, Tolimir, and the
8 minute taker. And then "Meeting."
9 And could you just please read out what it says below "Meeting"
10 next to the asterisk?
11 JUDGE KWON: Do you have the B/C/S page.
12 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes. The B/C/S page is --
13 JUDGE KWON: [Overlapping speakers] coming.
14 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you. It's page 123 in B/C/S.
15 A. Below "Meeting" is written: "I briefed the state and political.
16 The president is [indiscernible]. Leadership about situation on the
17 front and material resources for the war."
18 MR. NICHOLLS:
19 Q. Thank you. If we could now quickly go to D00428, which is also
20 our 65 ter number 114, at page 1 of the English. And what we have here,
21 thank you, are minutes of the expanded meeting of the War Presidency of
22 the Serbian Republic
23 as present. And could you just read out the first paragraph starting
24 with "General Mladic" after the names of the persons present listed.
25 A. "General Mladic briefed the Presidency in detail about the
1 overall situation in the Serbian Army and gave figures on quantities of
2 weapons, ammunition, spare parts, reserves of oil and oil products, food,
3 and other reserves."
4 Q. Okay. Thank you.
5 MR. NICHOLLS: And just for the record, we can see that this
6 meeting is recorded as commencing at 9.09 in the morning, and
7 General Mladic's notebook had the time listed as 9.20 in the morning.
8 I'd like to now move on to another example. This is on the
9 second page of the chart. 17 December 1992
10 If we could have English pages 320 up and B/C/S 297. And I'll start
11 while we're waiting for the English to come up. This is from the 17th of
12 December, 1992. General Mladic's notebook for that day. He's written
13 down that this is for the session of the National Assembly. And if we
14 could now go to page 2 of that document. And I should say for the
15 record, Your Honours, the date appears several pages earlier, but I
16 haven't put all of those into e-court. There's more entries for that
17 day. Could we go to the next page in English, please.
18 Q. All right. At the starred portion it says "Herceg." Could you
19 just read out what General Mladic's notes were from that entry, just
20 after "Herceg."
21 A. "Our soldiers deliberately fire at transformer station in order
22 to take some oil."
23 Q. All right. I'd like to now, keeping that in mind, please go to
24 P01364. Show page 2 first. Of the English and of the B/C/S. All right.
25 Again we see as in the notebook, 23rd session, with the National
1 Assembly of RS, 17 December 1992
2 Could we jump now to page 70 of the English and 65 of the B/C/S.
3 All right. Very simply on page 70 of the English we see that
4 Mr. Erceg is speaking. It's written Erceg there, not Herceg as in the
6 And several lines down, Mr. Blaszczyk, can you see a sentence in
7 the middle towards the top of the page. It begins "Electric energy
8 people say ..."?
9 A. Yes, I see this.
10 Q. Could you just read out this statement, that sentence.
11 A. "Electric energy people say that our soldiers are shooting with
12 their" -- it's not clear here, "sterili guns, as the Croats say, at
13 transformer stations for fun and are pleased when oil leaks from such
15 Q. All right. Thank you. I'd like to now move to the next example
16 where the entries match. This is 19 January, 1993. The top of page 3 of
17 the chart --
18 MR. NICHOLLS: If I could have 65 ter 22844 up on the screen,
19 please. Page 76 of the English, 79 of the B/C/S. All right.
20 Q. And here we have in the middle of the page of General Mladic's
21 notebook "Pale, 19 January 1993
22 RS." And can you just read out General Mladic's notice number 1 where he
23 is taking notes of what have Mr. Vojislav Maksimovic stated.
24 A. You want me to read it?
25 Q. Yes, please, for the record.
1 A. Vojislav Maksimovic says here:
2 "We should reject all types of pressure and ultimatums and
3 blackmail. Let's reject the map. Let's negotiate wisely and trust in
4 our strength and weapons."
5 Q. Thank you. We can look now at that session which is D00115,
6 first page 2 in the B/C/S in English. There we have page 2 up and we see
7 it's the recording of the 25th session of the National Assembly of the
8 RS. Also, it's from the 19th of January. If we could go now to page 15
9 of the English and also 15 of the B/C/S. And there we see that
10 Mr. Maksimovic is listed as speaking. If we could go to the next page of
11 both the English and B/C/S. And just for the record, if you can see
12 again about the same position on the page, the English, could you read
13 the sentence that begins "That is why we must say decidedly with the
14 utmost ... ," if you could just read out that sentence?
15 A. "That is why we must say decidedly and with utmost resolve that
16 we are not afraid and do not accept the dictates of blackmail which have
17 coming out -- our way for some time, now from ruthless Catholic and
18 anti-Orthodox community."
19 Q. And if we could now go to the next page in the English. If we
20 look down the last sentence the paragraph that begins "An in-depth
21 scrutiny of the proposal." If you could read out the sentence that
22 begins "Let us reject that map."
23 A. "Let us reject that map and let us carry on (applause)
24 negotiating as skilfully as we can with our adversaries as well as with
25 our European caretakers and our Yugoslav tutors."
1 Q. And then in the next paragraph it's stated:
2 "Let us be wise in negotiations and let us place our faith above
3 all in the strength of our own people and its arms."
5 A. Yes, it's correct.
6 Q. Thank you. If we could go to the next one now which I'd like to
7 show which is from the 18th of November, 1993. General Mladic's notebook
8 65 ter 22846, please. While I'm waiting for that to come up in English,
9 again it's 18 November 1993
10 English, page 35, please. B/C/S page 39.
11 Now, I won't for time read through them all but we can see who
12 are present at these negotiations in Geneva from all sides, and
13 General Mladic, if we go to the next page of his notebook -- well, we can
14 go straight to page 37 of the English, please. All right. And we see
15 there that Ogata has stated:
16 "We have prepared a joint declaration that I hope you will sign
17 today," and a conversation continues.
18 We could go to the next page, please. The next page, please.
19 I'm sorry. I'm sorry. If you could go back.
20 And we see there that it says:
21 "President Karadzic said that General Mladic had several
22 objections item number 3."
23 And below General Mladic has written "My questions." And just
24 for our record, could you read in what his questions are.
25 A. "Which materials are at issue? Who are they intended for? How
1 will they be delivered? How and where will they be inspected? Where
2 will delivery be made from?"
3 Q. And could we go to the next page now, please. And we see there
4 that General Mladic has written "What items were agreed that Mladic
5 should give his agreement," and then he's written with an arrow next to
6 it, "their response to my questions" about different materials, wood,
7 nails, plastics, clothing, et cetera.
8 Could we go to 65 ter number 21236, a document which matches this
9 meeting, page 1 of both the English and the B/C/S. Well, it's just
10 English that we have up here. And look up at number -- item number 3.
11 Can you just tell us quickly what item number 3 is about, Mr. Blaszczyk?
12 A. This is allowing UNHCR and ICRS to determine without any
13 conditionality or linkage the content of humanitarian assistance,
14 including needs for all material supplies like gas and other fuel
15 necessary for survival of the civilians.
16 Q. And can we go to the next page and look at item number 4. And we
17 see there that it's been included to "ensure that all humanitarian
18 assistance reach its intended civilian beneficiaries and is not diverted
19 to military needs or others." Which addresses some of the concerns we
20 saw in General Mladic's diary.
21 MR. NICHOLLS: Could we give this 65 ter 21236 a number, please,
22 Your Honours.
23 JUDGE KWON: I take it there should be no objection.
24 Yes, it will be admitted as.
25 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1462, Your Honours.
1 MR. NICHOLLS: If we could go now to the last example I intend to
2 show today. This is from the 25th of August. It's the last item in the
3 chart, beginning -- there were two notebooks which concern this date,
4 65 ter number 13452 first, please.
5 And, Your Honours, that's the same notebook which we saw on the
6 video and which is here in the courtroom today, the original.
7 And if we could go to page 324 of the English and 328 of the
9 JUDGE KWON: The transcript should read 13452.
10 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you. Again, page
11 24 [sic] of the English, page 328 of the B/C/S. I think the English is
12 not correct. It should be page 324. I think we have the wrong -- that's
13 correct. Thank you.
14 Q. Okay. Mr. Blaszczyk, can you just tell us where this meeting
15 took place on 25th August 1995
16 A. This meeting took place in Dobanovci on 25th August 1995, and
17 here we have listed list of the participants of the meetings, the
18 representative of Yugoslavia
19 Q. Okay. Could we just go to the next page, please, in each
21 Now, I'm not concerned with the text here other than the last
22 line which states "Continued in next notebook"; correct?
23 A. Yes, is correct.
24 Q. And is this written -- and we can look at the original on the
25 last lined page, the last page which is intended to be written on in this
2 A. Is correct. This entry was written on the last page of this
4 Q. Okay. And just to be clear again, this notebook is from the 2008
5 seizure; correct?
6 A. Yes. This notebook was seized in 4 December 2008.
7 Q. And is it correct that after this entry there was another entry
8 from September which is, however, written on a cover page, not on a lined
9 page? We can go to the next page maybe and see that.
10 A. Is correct. This is another entry written on the cover page from
11 the 5th September 1995
12 Q. Okay. And can we go to the next page of the B/C/S. All right.
13 And what we're seeing there is the final entry from that September
14 meeting on the actual cover page of the notebook; correct?
15 A. Yes, is correct.
16 Q. All right. If we can now have 65 ter 22851, please, pages 1 to 3
17 of the English -- starting at page 1 of the English, page 11 of the
19 Now, this notebook we can see is also from Dobanovci, 25th August
20 1995, and states at the beginning, "Meeting of the Serbian leadership";
22 A. Yes, is correct. The entry is related to the meeting in
23 Dobanovci from 25th August, 1995.
24 Q. And the first line states "Continued from the previous notebook."
25 A. Yes, it says so.
1 Q. And the notebook we're looking at now, 65 ter 22851, is from the
2 second seizure in 2010; is that right?
3 A. Yes, is correct. This notebook was seized on 23 February 2010.
4 Q. Okay. And just for the record, could you read out the first line
5 where General Mladic has put an asterisk next to Karadzic and then
6 written a note what he said?
7 A. "Thinks out loud about the role of the USA. Questions --"
8 Q. We can stop there for time. Thank you.
9 MR. NICHOLLS: I'd like to now go to 65 ter 5970, please. Page 1
10 of both English and B/C/S.
11 Now, this document headed "Record of Meeting of Federal Republic
12 of Yugoslavia
13 Political and Military Leadership Held on 25 August 1995 in the Army of
16 A. Yes, is correct, the same date and the same place.
17 Q. And could we go now to page 6 of the English, page 7 of the
19 And now we saw in the notebook the entry written by
20 General Mladic. Karadzic, "Thinks out loud about the role of the USA."
21 Could you read just the first sentence from the second paragraph of the
22 notes of this meeting?
23 A. "President Karadzic began thinking out loud by saying that
25 Q. "But is not entirely opposed to war," I think is what it says.
1 A. "... is not," yes.
2 MR. NICHOLLS: Could I tender this document, please, Your
3 Honours. This is 65 ter 5970.
4 JUDGE KWON: This very document, which hasn't been admitted yet.
5 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes, it will be admitted.
7 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1463, Your Honours.
8 MR. NICHOLLS: That concludes my direct examination, Your Honour.
9 I'd also like to tender the chart where these five examples appear from
10 which contain another ten similar examples of instances in which
11 General Mladic's notebooks contain notes of a meeting which are
12 corroborated by another document. That chart is 65 ter 22943 again.
13 JUDGE KWON: Have we not admitted this? Which was the document
14 that we admitted as P1462? Is it a different one? Probably my mistake.
15 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes. I believe that was 21236, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE KWON: Very well. This chart, 22943 will be admitted.
17 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1464, Your Honours.
18 MR. NICHOLLS: And, Your Honour, I would also seek to tender at
19 this time the corroborating documents listed in this chart which I
20 haven't gone through in the same way with the witness but which he has
21 confirmed that he has reviewed and are accurate.
22 JUDGE KWON: How many of them are there which hasn't been yet
23 admitted, which is noted only in 65 ter numbers.
24 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, it should be six of them, Your Honours, and I
25 can read out those numbers.
1 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
2 Mr. Robinson, do you have any objection?
3 MR. ROBINSON: No, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Shall we give it -- give them the
5 numbers in the order.
6 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.
7 JUDGE KWON: 65 ter 129 will be admitted as.
8 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1465, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE KWON: If the Court Deputy has that chart could you
10 continue to read out all the numbers?
11 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honours, if I may, I'm sorry.
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
13 MR. NICHOLLS: I think 65 ter 15342 in the second row will come
15 JUDGE KWON: Oh, yes. I missed it. Thank you. Then that will
16 be admitted as Exhibit P1466. If you could carry on.
17 MR. NICHOLLS: Then it would be 65 ter number 129 would be the
18 next one.
19 JUDGE KWON: This has been admitted. 1465.
20 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, then 132.
21 JUDGE KWON: Will be.
22 THE REGISTRAR: 1467, Your Honours. 65 ter 6328 will be Exhibit
24 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
25 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 1649 will be Exhibit P1469.
1 65 ter 21236 will be Exhibit P1470.
2 MR. NICHOLLS: I think 21236 we give a number.
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Oh yes.
5 JUDGE KWON: That's it.
6 MR. NICHOLLS: And 1683.
7 THE REGISTRAR: And P1683 will be P1470.
8 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Nicholls.
9 MR. NICHOLLS: And as far as of the notebooks, Your Honour, I'd
10 propose to deal with that after the cross-examination, the notebooks
12 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Mr. Karadzic, it's now for your to
13 cross-examine the witness. Given that this witness gave his direct
14 evidence in live and then Prosecution has spent about -- a bit more than
15 one hour and 30 minutes, and also given the nature of his -- of -- his
16 evidence which is limited to the chain of custody and the authenticity,
17 the Chamber is of the opinion that you should be able to conclude your
18 cross-examination within the same time as the Prosecution has spent,
19 i.e., one hour and half an hour -- one and a half hour.
20 It's now your witness.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Good morning to all.
22 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
23 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning to you, Mr. Blaszczyk.
24 A. Good morning, sir.
25 Q. May I ask you whether you speak the Serbian language.
1 A. I can communicate Serbian language. I wouldn't say that I speak
2 fluently, but I can communicate. I can understand.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I please have in e-court the
5 previous document that we saw, the page of the notebook that we looked
6 at, 5970 is the 65 ter number, and the 65 ter number of the notebook is
7 22851. It's the same thing that the learned Mr. Nicholls showed on the
8 screen. We'd like to have that as well.
9 Can we have the notebook in the original and the printed version
10 in English. Could we have the English translation in the typewritten
11 version, and on the left part of the screen I'd like to have the original
12 page exhibited.
13 Now on the left side I'd like to ask for the original, please,
14 from this very same notebook.
15 If I'm not clear enough, could --
16 JUDGE KWON: It's coming. It will be coming. Probably page 11.
17 MR. NICHOLLS: Correct, Your Honour.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Mr. Blaszczyk, could I please ask you about what it says after
20 this handwritten part that says "Meeting of the Serbian leadership."
21 If you have a problem with the Cyrillic, I can read it out and
22 you can confirm. Does it say, "Continued from other notebook"?
23 A. Yes, "Continued from the --" yes, yes. This is written. I
24 cannot translate this word exactly, but "Nastavak iz druge sveske." I
25 don't know how to translate it, but for me it could be both ways in the
1 previous notebook or from the other notebook. But I am not expert in
2 translation at all. I can't read it.
3 Q. A literal translation would be, do you agree, [In English]
4 "Continuation from another or from the other notebook."
5 [Interpretation] Isn't that right?
6 A. As I said, I'm not interpreter. I am not expert for translation
7 of Serbian language. I can speak and I can communicate but not fluently.
8 I can't say for that one what the translation would be. I think
9 interpreters is in better position to explain this word.
10 Q. Thank you. I'm not challenging or criticising the meaning of the
11 English translation. It is a translation of the spirit of what it says
12 but not -- it's not a literal translation. I'm saying that because we're
13 going to have quite a few interventions of this kind.
14 Do you agree that the spirit is being conveyed here but not the
15 literal meeting? The previous notebook is right. That's what Mladic
16 meant, but a literal translation would be "The other notebook."
17 Actually, we can ask the interpreters.
18 JUDGE KWON: We heard the answer from Mr. Blaszczyk. Please move
19 on. You made the point.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Let us go back a bit. You were in Bosnia-Herzegovina three
23 times; right? In which periods?
24 A. Is correct. I was deployed as IPTF officer in 1996, 1998, and
25 2001, but also very shortly I was in Bosnia-Herzegovina in 2000 -- sorry,
1 in 1992, at the Sarajevo
3 Q. Thank you. As for this period from 1996 to 1998 and 2001, did
4 you deal with or -- did you deal with persons indicted before this
5 Tribunal? Was that part of your work?
6 A. No, I didn't.
7 Q. When did that become part of your work?
8 A. Since I joined the ICTY, it was January 2003.
9 Q. Thank you. From January 2003 up until the present day, did you
10 deal with my case? Did you work on my indictment and the accompanying
11 material and exhibits and so on?
12 A. I was working for so-called Srebrenica case. I was dealing -- I
13 was assigned to the investigation regarding events in Srebrenica from
14 July 1995, what happened exactly during these events and after that, the
15 crimes committed after the liberation or fall of Srebrenica, July 1995.
16 Q. Thank you. You worked on collecting evidence, evidentiary
17 material, and you worked on contacts with potential witnesses; right?
18 A. Yes, is correct. This is the role of investigator in this
20 Q. Thank you. Were any investigative proceedings started in
21 relation to the treatment of witnesses and the collection of evidentiary
22 material in the Srebrenica case, the case of Popovic et al.?
23 A. I don't know.
24 Q. Were any objections raised in respect of you personally and the
25 treatment of witnesses in that case?
1 A. I believe -- I think I know what you are talking about, that one
2 of the Defence lawyers from Popovic case put allegation against me that I
3 somehow [indiscernible] the witness from Popovic case, but it wasn't
5 Q. Thank you. You're a Pole; right?
6 A. Yes, is correct. I'm Pole.
7 Q. Can you help us understand. In the Polish judiciary system, is
8 there a court investigation involved, or, rather, does the institution of
9 an investigative judge exist?
10 A. No, the system in Poland
11 prosecutor, a police, of course, prosecutor office, and a court. Police
12 and prosecutor office conducting an investigation and then the material
13 is submitted to the court.
14 Q. Do you know which system we are talking about? Are you familiar
15 with the system in the Yugoslav republics, the system in which an
16 investigative judge exists and when the investigation is actually carried
17 out by that judge?
18 A. I know that in Serbia
19 prosecution office, and police, of course, and investigation judge who is
20 conducting the investigation, and this is totally different than in
22 Q. Thank you. Do you understand then that when in countries, the
23 Balkan countries, a person says "investigator" we understand that to mean
24 a court investigator rather than a prosecution investigator, and do you
25 see any difference involved?
1 JUDGE KWON: I don't see the relevance of the question. Where
2 are these questions leading us?
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I believe you will see that
4 fairly soon because of the way in which evidence is collected and the way
5 in which witnesses are treated in these different systems.
6 JUDGE KWON: Put your direct question to the witness.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Are there any legal restrictions in Poland or does the law
9 prescribe how evidence is collected and also how witnesses are called?
10 JUDGE KWON: Ask the question which is related to this material
11 and the investigation conducted by the witness. The situation in Poland
12 has nothing to do with our trial.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Were you aware of the legal regulations in terms of obtaining
16 evidence and treating witnesses in this Tribunal?
17 A. Yes, of course.
18 Q. So you do accept that these restrictions and rules exist. Were
19 these rules violated by investigation teams of the OTP?
20 A. I have no such information.
21 Q. Was the family of General Mladic under pressure that had been
22 initiated from here and carried out by the police in Serbia?
23 A. I am not aware of such situation. I was not involved in any
24 connection with General Mladic wife.
25 Q. Wife and son. It's not only the wife. Tell us, when was the
1 family home of General Mladic searched for the first time in Belgrade
2 Before the 4th of December, 2008, were there any other searches?
3 A. I remember information that -- I don't know how I got this
4 information. Possible that even from president, but I'm pretty sure that
5 the house was searched on other occasion, but I think it was 2006, but
6 the date exactly I don't know.
7 Q. What was the explanation you received, if you did receive an
8 explanation, if you asked for one in the first place, namely that the
9 first copies of these notebooks were found only on the 4th of December,
11 A. Yes, we were interested why the material wasn't seized at that
12 time. I mean, the previous search done probably in 2006, but explanation
13 was that at that time they were interested only for looking for ICTY
14 footage of General Mladic. They were not interested of procedure of
15 finding documents.
16 Q. During those previous searches, what was the material that was
18 A. I have no information what kind of material was seized during the
19 previous searches, but I think that -- I'm pretty sure that there was one
20 search before 2008, December, but how many more, really, I don't know.
21 For sure ICTY was not involved in these searches.
22 Q. Do you agree that the police in Serbia and in Republika Srpska
23 was guided by directives and pressures coming from this Office of the
25 A. I believe this is obligation of Serbian Republika Srpska looking
1 for the fugitives, ICTY fugitives.
2 Q. I'm not asking about the search for fugitives. I'm talking about
3 the treatment of families. What is happening to our families down there?
4 Is this some kind of local arbitrary behaviour or is it pressure coming
5 from your services?
6 A. Sir, I have no information about this situation. What I read --
7 what I know only I read in the press, and I know from you, that's it.
8 Q. Are you trying to say, Mr. Blaszczyk, that you don't know that
9 the brother of Osama bin Laden has been treated far better than our
11 MR. NICHOLLS: Objection, Your Honour. We're now going -- I've
12 been very lax in objecting because I thought it would somehow get back to
13 Mr. Blaszczyk's experience, his qualifications, or his knowledge of prior
14 searches, but it is clear that we are now just verging into speeches and
16 JUDGE KWON: Agreed.
17 Mr. Karadzic, come back to the relevant questions, to the subject
18 matter dealt with by this witness.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I will go back, but I
20 think that I do have the right to test the credibility and the overall
21 behaviour of the witness and the service that he belongs to. However, I
22 will go back to what I had been dealing with.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Do you have any explanation as to why on the 4th of December all
25 the notebooks had not been seized? Rather, some were seized in February
2 A. In December 2008, the notebooks seized at that time, the material
3 seized at that time was in the plain view, you know, accessible for
4 everybody. As I know, the material, the notebooks from 2010 search,
5 February 2010 search, was hidden. One in the ward [sic], part of this
6 material was hidden in the attic of Bosiljka Mladic house, and part in
7 the wardrobe in her bedroom.
8 Q. Is that the reason why they hadn't been found during the search
9 in 2008?
10 A. This is the only explanation I received.
11 Q. Thank you. Do you know what happened with the material seized
12 during numerous searches of the apartments belonging to my family?
13 A. No, I don't know. I believe that part of this material was
14 submitted to our evidence units as evidences. I don't know. I cannot
15 answer this question.
16 Q. Do you know what was seized and what happened with the material
17 seized in the homes of many people who are somehow related to me, such as
18 Priest Starovlah, whose house was barged into?
19 A. I know that in few searches in Bosnia-Herzegovina, related to
20 you, sir, or your family, there was seized also some documents, and I
21 believe these documents were submitted to the ICTY and are right now are
22 in our evidence unit. But I am not aware of -- I don't know details
23 about these searches, at least from top of my head.
24 Q. Thank you. Are these -- is this material treated as a collection
25 like the material found in the apartment of Mrs. Mladic?
1 A. What do you mean as a collection? This is evidentiary material,
2 is treated properly, as evidence. Everything what we had received from
3 the people who made the search was submitted, if we received anything,
4 was submitted to us, and then was assigned an ERN number and submit --
5 and right now in our evidence unit, and, of course, accessible for
6 everybody, including the Defence, I believe.
7 Q. But all this material is kept together. It's not broken down
8 into folders and files. It's kept as a collection of notebooks. And now
9 we also have some audio and video material that we are not going to
10 discuss today. These notebooks are kept as a collection of evidence. Do
11 you have such a collection in my case?
12 A. In fact, this collection from the most recent search of
13 General Mladic was kept somehow differently, but about the collection of
14 the material seized from your residences, I don't know. I know that we
15 have evidences from this search, but I don't know how it is kept.
16 Q. Thank you. May I now call up in e-court 65 ter 22840?
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see page 98 in both English
18 and Serbian. But in Serbian we need the typewritten text, not the
19 manuscript. Although, if it's the same page, the manuscript will do.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. While we're waiting for that, Mr. Blaszczyk, is there anyone else
22 who will testify to the authenticity, authenticated the handwriting of
23 General Mladic?
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I needed page 98.
25 THE WITNESS: Whether there is anyone else who testified to the
1 authenticity of the handwriting of General Mladic? Except
2 General Manojlo Milovanovic, I don't know. I don't remember.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Thank you. How did you get the idea to choose
5 General Milovanovic?
6 A. First of all, when he was here in The Hague we took opportunity
7 that he testified. I think it was Stanisic and Simatovic case. And we
8 took this opportunity that he was here in The Hague and we decided to
9 show him this copy or scanned version of General Mladic notebooks. And
10 also having in mind that he was very close to General Mladic entire the
11 war, you know, for many years he attended -- he was attending meetings
12 together with General Mladic. He was present, and he was writing down
13 his notes, and he was very familiar with his handwritings. We decided to
14 choose General Milovanovic.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see page 98 in e-court, not
17 in the document. Page 98 in e-court in both versions.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Can you see these first two bullet points? Can you read them for
21 A. You mean which one? Which part?
22 Q. This is from a meeting from 16 June 1992, and these are the words
23 of Radovan Karadzic.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we perhaps see the previous
25 page to see the beginning of this meeting. Can we go back to the
1 beginning, which is dated 6th June 1992
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Do you agree that this is a contribution by Karadzic that's
4 written there? And it goes on to straddle the next page, and the date is
5 6th June 1992
6 If you accept that this notebook refers to 6th June, 1992, we can
7 go back to the next page to see the text.
8 A. I -- I see here English translation and transcript, B/C/S
9 transcript, but I don't see the original notebook, but I believe this is
10 from notebook.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the next page, please.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Do you agree that Karadzic says:
14 "We must not exert pressure for people to move," and, "We don't
15 have the right to say that the border is not along the Neretva River
16 A. Is written here, yes. Is correct.
17 Q. Do you agree that the moving of people is not literally
18 translated? It should not be displacement. The word used in the Serbian
19 is properly translated as "resettlement."
20 A. The same, sir, I think this is not question to me, rather to
22 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, the translation is not the matter this
23 witness is concerned with. You will have another opportunity to
24 challenge the translation or explore the proper translation thereof, but
25 this is not the proper moment.
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Do you agree that this took place at that meeting of the 6 June
3 1992? If you have the original, you can look at it.
4 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Blaszczyk, if you'd like to confirm the date, we
5 can go back to page 93 in e-court.
6 THE WITNESS: No. I believe if it says so. I believe our case
7 manager is following. Yes, is correct. In the English translation is 6
8 June, 1992, Hotel Bistrica.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we now see in
10 e-court 1D260. 1D260.
11 JUDGE KWON: Could you check the number again, Mr. Karadzic. Is
12 it not 1D360?
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It should be 1D260. It's dated 8
14 June 1992, thus after this meeting it's the reaction and actions of
15 Radovan Karadzic.
16 JUDGE KWON: It's in your list as the -- as 1D191. Should we try
17 that document, whether it's the correct document?
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That could be the document. And
19 this is the document published through the SRNA agency. Yes, that's it.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. I don't know if we have a translation for this. Can you see that
22 this is dated 8 June 1992
23 the news agency. Do you agree that in line seven it says -- the speaker
24 didn't say who, "... advocates publicly that the basic principles of
25 humanitarian law should be honoured in wartime. The president of the
1 Presidency of the Serbian Republic
2 following urgent appeal."
3 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nicholls.
4 MR. NICHOLLS: Excuse me, Your Honours. I'm sorry to interrupt.
5 I'm told there is an English translation at D00426, if that assists.
6 JUDGE KWON: Which is apparently already admitted. We'll see.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. If you want me to confirm that this is
9 document dated 8th of June, 1992, from SRNA agency.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Just to confirm it has been admitted as
11 Exhibit D426, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Do we agree that there is a connection between this document
15 published or put out by Karadzic two days after that entry in Mladic's
16 notebook? There is a connection in terms of the subject.
17 A. This document was created two days after the meeting which I
18 discussed -- or you discussed just few seconds ago. This is connection.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Since this is already an exhibit,
21 can we get 65 ter 22840.
22 JUDGE KWON: I was wondering the line about -- as to your line of
23 questioning. Are you visiting the translation issue again?
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I'm sorry to say, Your
25 Excellency, General Mladic's entries in his notebooks are very short,
1 almost shorthand. They are not full, complete sentences, and in
2 translation a lot of misunderstanding can be caused by such shorthand.
3 JUDGE KWON: But we'll have a break, Mr. Karadzic, now, for half
4 an hour, but please bear in mind that what we are dealing with today is
5 just simply a chain of custody and the authenticity of the notebook, not
6 the content of the -- content of them.
7 We'll break for half an hour. We resume at 12.40.
8 --- Recess taken at 12.09 p.m.
9 --- On resuming at 12.45 p.m.
10 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic. Please continue.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 May I ask for 65 ter 22852 in e-court. Let's first identify the
13 cover, and then we'll go to page 44 in Serbian and 47 in English. And we
14 need the typewritten text. Serbian typewritten 44. E-court page number
15 44. Page 47 in English.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Do you agree, Mr. Blaszczyk, that it's an entry of the 22nd of
18 March, 1996, when Mladic and his co-workers had a meeting with me?
19 A. [Microphone not activated] ... conversation with President
20 Karadzic. The date, 22 March 1996
21 Q. Let's look at the first sentence. I think there is a typo here,
22 but I suppose it says:
23 "A big show was put on for Albright."
24 We should look at the manuscript to check this. Can you read the
25 first two items.
1 A. "A big show was put on for Albright. She expected they would
2 find 1.200 Muslim bodies at Pilica, but they found some five bodies."
3 Q. The next?
4 A. "We met Koljevic, Biljana and concluded it was best for
5 commission to be formed on the basis of equal parity to rely [sic]
6 investigate all deaths and killings around Srebrenica during the war."
7 Q. Can we look at this item below, "If they expand the campaign ..."
8 [In English] "If they expand." [Interpretation] Yes. You can count
9 the -- there are four items before that.
10 A. "If they expand the campaign, then they would form a joint
11 commission (one for civilian security, one from army security, and two
12 from UN) to investigate the killings of every individual."
13 You want me to read the next sentences also?
14 Q. Please.
15 A. "Accusation of rape - Karadzic says that some lawyer in the USA
16 is defending him well.
17 "Crimes of such type have to address personally.
18 "Defence costs of General Djukic to be paid.
19 "All funeral costs to be paid --"
20 Q. That's enough. Thank you. Now, let's just look carefully --
21 I'll explain why I'm putting forward these examples. It concerns the
22 admissibility and value of these documents.
23 Do you agree that when I say, "If they expand the campaign," and
24 I meant the propaganda campaign, then a joint commission would be formed,
25 and the translation says, "they would form." [In English] "Then they
1 would form a joint commission."
2 [Interpretation] The translation sounds as if someone else was to
3 form a joint commission, whereas Mladic writes that we were going to set
4 up a joint commission. It's not quite grammatical --
5 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, this is not the moment to deal with
6 the correctness of the translation of this notebook. You have ample
7 opportunity to deal with or challenge the correctness of the translation.
8 This witness has nothing to do with the translation of this notebook.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now see 1D2267. Let's bear
10 in mind that this was 22nd March 1996
11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: 2267.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D2267. That is the document.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. May I read it myself, because we don't seem to have a translation
15 yet, although the OTP has a copy of this document. It's addressed to the
16 Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, to the MUP of Republika
17 Srpska, to the Defence Ministry, the Ministry of Justice and
18 Administration, the Supreme Court, the Supreme Military Court, the
19 republic public prosecutor, and the prosecutor of the Army of Republika
21 Can you confirm that this is dated 1st April, 1996?
22 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nicholls.
23 MR. NICHOLLS: I believe P00164 will be the translation, which
24 would help the witness.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, certainly. Can we see the
1 translation as well.
2 THE WITNESS: Yes, I can confirm that this document is dated 1st
3 April, 1996.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Right. Thank you. Can you read the document quickly, tell us
6 what it is about, and if there is any connection between this and
7 Mladic's entry in his notebook dated 22nd March 1996. That's sometime
8 before this document. You don't have to read it all. Just tell us
9 briefly what it is about.
10 A. This is about victims of Srebrenica events. It's about possible
12 Q. Yes. May I read myself. Is it correct that an order is given
13 here to conduct a detailed review of the sites where there are victims of
14 armed conflicts and to identify these victims? It's not about whether an
15 investigation will be conducted or not. An investigation must be done.
16 But this is an order to identify the victims, the cause of death, and
17 certainly to establish whether they are civilian or military victims.
18 Furthermore, to investigate whether there was any intentional
19 murder of civilians or wounded people or prisoners of war, or whether any
20 other crime was committed in violation of The Hague or the Geneva
21 Conventions, the perpetrators of any such crime to be identified so that
22 legal proceedings may be started without delay, and this order is to be
23 implemented immediately --
24 JUDGE KWON: What is your question, Mr. Karadzic? What is your
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. My question is: Do you agree, Mr. Blaszczyk, that with these
3 diaries we need to have documents like this to understand the essence?
4 A. I don't think so. Diary is diary. If we are talking right now
5 about authenticity of the diary, I don't think that we need any
6 additional documents, this type of document.
7 Q. Do you agree that the point of Mladic's documents is to jog his
8 memory? It wasn't supposed to be a document to be used for any other
9 purposes? What was the purpose of having written these documents?
10 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, the purpose of keeping the diary is
11 nothing to do with this witness. That's one thing. And I think I'm
12 emphasising this point for third or fourth time. This is not the moment
13 to deal with the weight or probative value of Mladic's notebook. This
14 witness has been brought to testify to the chain of custody and the
15 authenticity of them.
16 Can I take it from your line of questions that you are not
17 challenging the authorship by Mladic of this notebook, Mr. Karadzic?
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Absolutely. We are not disputing
19 that these are Mladic's diaries. However, since the learned Mr. Nicholls
20 was also trying to prove the authenticity by way of documents, the
21 Defence wishes to say that the diary is not a document per se because it
22 is not linguistically complete. Therefore, we have to be careful in
23 terms of the admissibility and the usability of these documents.
24 I am going to ask later on -- actually, I'm going to raise the
25 subject of how these documents should be admitted.
1 These documents were written as reminders for Mladic, probably
2 for memoirs, or they're just notes. It's not a diary in the true sense
3 of the word. So let us bear in that in mind.
4 If that's the way it is, then I could complete this
5 cross-examination. I could tender these documents. This order, if it is
6 acceptable, then I would like to tender that. And then I'm going to ask
7 Mr. Robinson to present our view of the admissibility and usability of
8 these documents, these diaries.
9 JUDGE KWON: Very well. You'll have about an hour, less than an
10 hour, to complete your cross-examination. Please continue.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted?
12 JUDGE KWON: That has already been admitted as Exhibit P164.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 If this line of questioning does not serve the purpose of
15 corroborating this diary, then I'm done. As far as admissibility is
16 concerned, I will give the floor to Mr. Robinson to say how we believe
17 these documents should be taken, these diaries should be taken. I mean,
18 I would be very worried, we would be very worried, if they were to be
19 admitted in their entirety without additional corroborating documents and
20 also establishing the true sense of everything that is stated, because
21 these documents were just written for the purpose of reminding Mladic
22 later on of something that had happened. So it's an aide-memoire, a
23 reminder. It's not a diary in the true sense of the word.
24 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Karadzic. You will have ample
25 opportunity to -- to deal with the meaning or -- the meaning of these
1 notebook entries or as to how to interpret them, and you'll have -- also
2 have ample opportunity to make submission on that.
3 I take it you concluded your cross-examination of Mr. Blaszczyk,
4 and I wonder whether you have any re-exam --
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellency, except that we should
6 ask Mr. Robinson to present our position on the conditions under which
7 this is acceptable and admissible.
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We'll come back to that after concluding the
9 evidence of Mr. Blaszczyk.
10 Do you have any re-examination, Mr. Nicholls?
11 MR. NICHOLLS: I do not, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Then that concludes your evidence,
13 Mr. Blaszczyk. Thank you for your evidence.
14 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 [The witness withdrew]
16 JUDGE KWON: Yes. You stated that after the testimony of the
17 witness and the cross-examination of Dr. Karadzic, you will give us a
18 clear answer to the authenticity or admissibility. Could you --
19 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. We don't contest the
20 authenticity of the notebooks. So that's the first point.
21 The second point is having reviewed the notebooks in their
22 entirety during the recess, we believe that they're very helpful to the
23 Defence and that there's many entries in these notebooks that can be very
24 useful and corroborate what Dr. Karadzic has been saying all along. So
25 we see that it's in our interest as well as the interest of the
1 Prosecutor that entries from the diaries be used during this trial and be
2 available to the Chamber.
3 However, we doesn't think that it's fair for the notebooks to be
4 admitted in their entirety as some kind of collection, because we believe
5 that what is -- we don't have the ability to question General Mladic
6 about what he meant or what -- we don't have the ability to confront him
7 with these entries. So we think that what the practice ought to be is
8 that individual entries be considered for admission as presented by
9 consistent with testimony or other documents, similar to the 15 entries
10 that Mr. Nicholls has on his chart and similar to the few documents and
11 entries that Dr. Karadzic was giving as example in his cross-examination.
12 So it would be our position that we should admit on an entry-by-entry
13 basis documents or entries from the diary that are corroborated by
14 witness testimony or other documents, and we feel that that would be the
15 correct way in which these Mladic notebooks ought to be treated.
16 And I would before sitting down also like to express our
17 appreciation to the Chamber for having the next two weeks to look at the
18 tapes, because I think we may come to a similar conclusion once we've had
19 the opportunity to actually understand what's in those tapes. And having
20 had the opportunity to finally see what was in the notebooks, we feel
21 that they're on balance more useful to the Defence than we had expected.
22 Thank you.
23 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nicholls.
24 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honours. At the beginning today,
25 Mr. Robinson said that he was putting the Prosecution to its proof before
1 they took a position and would see whether we could prove or not that
2 these notebooks were authored by General Mladic. We've done that, and
3 they have now taken the position that there is no question but that these
4 notebooks were authored by General Mladic.
5 Along with the testimony of Mr. Blaszczyk, we went into the
6 location of the notebooks, that they were seized from General Mladic's
7 wife's home in Belgrade
8 our burden it at this stage for admissibility of these notebooks. We
9 have proven that there is beyond sufficient indicia of reliability for
10 these to be admitted.
11 I would move to admit all of the notebooks in their entirety.
12 All of the -- the Chamber has found, in respect of the ones added to the
13 65 ter list from the second seizure, those notebooks, that they're prima
14 facie relevant to these proceedings. We've seen today through the course
15 of the proceedings how different documents and dates are corroborated by
16 independent documentation, independent of the notebooks, and witnesses,
17 indeed Mr. Karadzic was speaking about meetings he was present at and
18 what he really meant and what should have been written down. So these
19 documents are probative and will be helpful, and I think it the most
20 utility, as with the Assembly sessions, although, of course, this a
21 smaller set, is to have them in their entirety.
22 All of the concerns, all of the concerns raised by Mr. Robinson
23 go to the weight, which is something -- the weight of this evidence to be
24 accorded in the final judgement, if any, is something, like any other
25 piece of evidence, the Trial Chamber will judge after hearing all of the
1 evidence in the case, all of the witnesses, comparing it to different
2 material and then assign the correct weight. So all of the concerns
3 raised that this was written by somebody we can't cross-examine, we don't
4 know exactly what was in his mind, that can all be pointed out in the
5 final brief and, indeed, as we go along where relevant and can be
6 considered by the Trial Chamber in its deliberation. But as with the
7 Assembly sessions, the Defence here have -- although they haven't agreed
8 to them coming in in their entirety, have agreed that these are
9 probative, that portions will be useful to them, and that these are
11 So my submission would be to enter them in their entirety and the
12 fairness concerns raised are ones that would appear with many other types
13 of documents and can be dealt with adequately by the Chamber when it
14 comes to weighing all the evidence.
15 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson, would you like to respond?
16 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, very briefly, Mr. President. First of all,
17 the difference we see between this and the Assembly sessions is that
18 those were recorded essentially in their entirety by people with the duty
19 to make an accurate record of that, so we think that the confrontation
20 concerns are different than receiving a shorthand diary.
21 Secondly, if you look at an analogous situation, back in the New
23 UNPROFOR officers like General Morillon who attended meetings during the
24 course of this conflict, and we wouldn't be suggesting that all this
25 whole collection be admitted so that the Trial Chamber would have all of
1 the recollections of the UN personnel who attended different meetings
2 during the course of the conflict, and essentially that's what the Mladic
3 diaries are. They're his impressions and his notes from various meetings
4 that took place during the course of the conflict, and we think that it's
5 more consistent with your practice and with the right of confrontation
6 that there be some link between the evidence in the case and the entry
7 before the Court has the ability to assess what usage should be made.
8 Thank you.
9 JUDGE MORRISON: Well, that must be right, Mr. Robinson, but
10 that's exactly what the Prosecution are advocating that the Court does,
11 and that's what the Court will do. So it's -- it's not a question of
12 admitting these documents wholesale as proving of truth of their
13 contents. The truth or -- and thereafter the weight of any content of
14 the diary will have to be assessed according to its context and according
15 to other evidence by which it can be measured and accepted or indeed
16 reject. So while I understand your concerns, I think you can be assured
17 that the purpose to which these diaries are admitted are going to be no
18 more damning or any less damning than any other document. It's simply a
19 question of weight to be adduced in due course.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE KWON: We'll break for 15 minutes, after which we will give
22 the ruling of the Chamber.
23 --- Break taken at 1.11 p.m.
24 --- On resuming at 1.31 p.m.
25 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber has considered the arguments made by the
1 parties. It is of the view that as the authenticity of the notebook is
2 not being challenged by the accused and that there should be no question
3 as to the relevance of the notebooks, they can be admitted into evidence
4 in their entirety.
5 The concerns raised by Mr. Robinson go to matters of weight to be
6 admitted by the Chamber to the evidence at the conclusion of the trial.
7 The same must be said in relation to Mr. Robinson's proposal to consider
8 the admission of individual entries in a piecemeal fashion. It is for
9 the parties to present corroborating or contrary evidence as they see fit
10 and for the Chamber to determine at the end of the case whether entries
11 in the notebooks have been corroborated.
12 For these reasons, the Chamber will admit the notebooks into
13 evidence in their entirety. The numbers will be assigned by the Court
14 Deputy and will be informed to the parties in due course.
15 We are going to assign each number for each notebook. Am I
16 correct, Mr. Nicholls?
17 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes. I think that would be the best, Your Honour.
18 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
19 JUDGE KWON: There are a further two matters I'd like to deal
20 with before we adjourn. The first thing is concerned with the Status
21 Conference I referred to.
22 As we have already intimated, during the period of suspension of
23 the hearing of evidence, the Chamber wishes to hold a Status Conference
24 to discuss the progress of the trial to date. We believe that it would
25 be helpful to have a discussion on this issue in light of our experience
1 over the past months and in order to hear the parties' views on how the
2 trial can be moved forward more expeditiously.
3 I should note that the Chamber has performed its own calculations
4 on the length of the remaining trial, making use of the data available in
5 our monthly time reports. We have done this on the basis of a
6 four-day-per-week sitting schedule, as well as a five-day-per-week
7 sitting schedule in order to assess the impact upon the overall length of
8 the trial.
9 Without getting into a discussion right now about the merits of a
10 four versus five-day sitting schedule, I would like to say that we are
11 concerned about the results of our calculation and are interested in
12 exploring ways to ensure that the trial is indeed a manageable one in
13 terms of its length and the volume of evidence with the parties.
14 Having said that, would I like to hear from the parties now
15 solely on the issue of the timing of the Status Conference. So I wonder
16 whether there are any preferences for a particular date in the next two
17 weeks when we might schedule it.
18 Mr. Tieger.
19 MR. TIEGER: I'm grateful, Your Honour. There are certain dates
20 during which I will be unavailable and other dates which are inconvenient
21 in preparation for those conflicting dates but possible. So certainly
22 the -- I can either address the specific dates at the moment or pass the
23 information on to the court officer, but at a minimum the 30th, 31st of
24 August, 1st and 2nd of September present -- are impossible dates for me.
25 The Friday of that week should present no problem at all, and next week
1 is problematic, but if the Court cannot otherwise accommodate, and I
2 understand it's a fairly demanding request in light of the fact that I'm
3 only leaving one specific date open, I would make all efforts to be
4 available during next week, but as indicated, the first four days of the
5 following week are not possible for me.
6 JUDGE KWON: To be clear, you said it would be okay for you to
7 hold it on 3rd of September, Friday.
8 MR. TIEGER: That's correct.
9 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic or Mr. Robinson?
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I usually don't go anywhere. I'm
11 around. So whenever you wish.
12 JUDGE KWON: Then we'll have that Status Conference at 10.00 on
13 Friday, 3rd of September.
14 For the next matter, I would like to go into private session
16 [Private session]
15 [Open session]
16 THE REGISTRAR: Back in open session, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. In accordance with the Chamber's
18 decision of the 18th of August, the hearing of evidence is suspended
19 until Monday, 6th of September, and in the meantime we'll hold a Status
20 Conference at 10.00 on Friday, 3rd of September.
21 The hearing is now adjourned.
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.42 p.m.
23 to be reconvened on Monday, the 6th day
24 of September, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.