Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6673

 1                           Tuesday, 14 September 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.

 7             Good morning, Dr. Nakas.

 8             If you could take the solemn declaration, please.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

10     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

11                           WITNESS:  BAKIR NAKAS

12                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Please make yourself comfortable.

14             I was told that the last document we used yesterday was not dealt

15     with, so -- 1D1206, which was a document in the BiH Presidency.  So I

16     take it there's no opposition from the Defence, and we'll admit it as one

17     of the Defence exhibits.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D614, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Having dealt with it, now Ms. Sutherland.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour.

21                           Examination by Ms. Sutherland:

22        Q.   Could you please state your full name?

23        A.   My name is Bakir Nakas, son of Mustafa and Azra Catic.

24        Q.   And you're a doctor of medicine, by profession?

25        A.   Yes, I am a doctor by profession, specialising in infectious

Page 6674

 1     diseases.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  With Your Honour's leave, I'll proceed with the

 3     Rule 92 requirements.

 4        Q.   Doctor, as we discussed, part of your evidence will be submitted

 5     in writing, so I need to first address some preliminary formalities

 6     associated with that submission.

 7             You provided signed statements to the Office of the Prosecutor on

 8     the 10th of November, 1995, the 10th and 12th of November, 1995, the 26th

 9     of February, 1996, and the 9th and 10th of October, 2001.  You testified

10     before the ICTY in the trials of Stanislav Galic on the 10th of December,

11     2001, and the 9th of January, 2002; in the Dragomir Milosevic case on the

12     25th and 29th of January, 2007; and in the Momcilo Perisic case on the

13     25th and 26th of March, 2009.  Is that correct?

14        A.   Yes, it's all correct.

15        Q.   Subsequent to that, a statement was prepared which amalgamated

16     evidence from your previous testimony, statements and interviews, and

17     referenced a number of documents, which you signed on the 8th of

18     September, 2010; is that correct?

19        A.   Yes, I signed the statement on the 8th of September this year.

20        Q.   You had an opportunity to review that amalgamated witness

21     statement and the exhibits referred to therein?

22        A.   Yes, by people from the OTP, I was shown the entire

23     documentation, and I had the opportunity to look at the documents, yes.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I could have 65 ter 90190, please,

25     Mr. Registrar.

Page 6675

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Is it not 91, the last two digits?

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Can you take it off the screen, please.

 3             Your Honour, that will require a --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I will take care of it.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, 90191.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 8        Q.   Doctor, is that your statement, the amalgamated witness statement

 9     that you signed the other day?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   I believe there's one amendment you wish to make.  At

12     paragraph 23, and this is on page 6 of the statement, you wish to replace

13     the word "missiles" with the word "projectiles" so that the sentence --

14     the first sentence now reads:

15             "Between 1992 and 1995, the hospital was hit with over 200

16     projectiles and it was subjected to direct shooting"?

17        A.   Probably in the process of translation, a different term was used

18     for the word "projectile."  So I agree that instead of "missile," it

19     should say "projectile."

20        Q.   There is also a clarification in relation to paragraph 59 and 62,

21     and that's on page 11.  There, you have a table which sets out the

22     civilian and military patients at the State Hospital.  And if we can go

23     to the next page, in the last sentence of paragraph 61, it states that:

24             "... the figures for the military in the above table include

25     their civilian dependents."

Page 6676

 1             You wish to clarify that the military figure in the table in

 2     paragraph 59 includes:  1, JNA pensioner who remained living in Sarajevo

 3     and their dependants; 2, the members of the regular army, but not their

 4     dependants; and, 3, members of the police, but not their dependants; is

 5     that correct?

 6        A.   Yes, it's correct, because in previous statements that I gave,

 7     some interpretations about the insurance system in the pre-war period

 8     were added to the context of the entire statement, so that it appeared

 9     that this conclusion that the total number of military beneficiaries of

10     insurance included the members of their families.  But, actually, it only

11     includes former JNA members, retired officers, and members of their

12     families who remained living in Sarajevo.  Families of active members of

13     the B and H Army are not included in these numbers that refer to military

14     members.  They are part of the figure that is given for civilians.

15        Q.   Thank you.  With that amendment and clarification, can you

16     confirm that the statement is accurate, and that if you were asked the

17     same questions on the same topics today, your answers would be the same?

18        A.   Yes.

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, in those circumstances, I tender

20     65 ter 90191 for admission into evidence, under seal.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Because of what part does it have to be under seal?

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, because of certain medical records

23     that are on subsequent pages, from page 17 onwards.  The Prosecution has

24     up-loaded a version -- a redacted version of the witness's statement as

25     well, so I was going to ask that that be given the next exhibit in line.

Page 6677

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  That will be done.  This unredacted,

 2     amalgamated statement will be admitted as ...?

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1524, under seal, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  And the Exhibit P1525 will be a public version of

 5     that statement?

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour, taking out documents that are

 7     admitted under seal in another case or will be admitted under seal in

 8     this case, pursuant to Your Honour's earlier ruling at transcript 5360,

 9     pertaining to certain medical records.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Okay.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  With Your Honour's leave, I'll now read a brief

12     summary of the witness's --

13             JUDGE KWON:  Before that, I take it there's no opposition from

14     the Defence.

15             Yes, please go ahead.

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  -- evidence.

17             The witness is a doctor of medicine who worked as the general

18     manager of the State Hospital in Sarajevo throughout the war in Bosnia

19     and Herzegovina (1992 to 1995).

20             Dr. Nakas discusses the shelling and sniping directed at the

21     hospital throughout the war and describes its effects upon patients and

22     staff and the overall functioning of the hospital.  The witness further

23     gives evidence in relation to the civilian casualties of the shelling and

24     sniping campaign in Sarajevo and its effects on the civilian population.

25             The witness authenticates selected hospital and medical records

Page 6678

 1     relating to scheduled sniping incidents F4, F6, F7, F9 through F12, F14

 2     through F17, and scheduled shelling incidents G1, G4, G6, G8 through G13

 3     and G19.

 4             Prior to the conflict, the witness worked as a doctor at Sarajevo

 5     Military Hospital as a member of the Yugoslav People's Army, the JNA,

 6     reaching the rank of lieutenant-colonel in 1988.  On the 8th of April,

 7     1992, he requested termination from the JNA and left the hospital.

 8             Upon his return on the 10th of May, 1992, he was appointed to be

 9     general manager of the Sarajevo State Hospital, as the former military

10     hospital was renamed.  In this capacity, he was responsible for

11     organising the entire hospital, which included establishing medical

12     protocols and documentation for the hospital.  In addition to this

13     position as the general manager of the Sarajevo State Hospital, the

14     witness was an adviser to the Ministry of Health of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

15     responsible for communications regarding humanitarian aid with respect to

16     medicines, as well as a member of the Crisis Staff, an organisation

17     comprised of managers of all health institutions in Sarajevo.

18             By virtue of his various positions, the witness is familiar with

19     and can authenticate all the various forms of documentation used by all

20     the medical and health facilities in Sarajevo.  Moreover, the witness can

21     provide statistical evaluations of patient profiles and injuries due to

22     his position in the hospital and Ministry of Health.  The witness

23     authenticated medical documentation through his testimony in the Galic,

24     Dragomir Milosevic and Perisic trials.  In addition, the witness

25     authenticated medical documentation in his various witness statements.

Page 6679

 1     Finally, the witness has viewed medical documentation and authenticated

 2     the documents.

 3             The witness described the shelling upon Sarajevo State Hospital

 4     which considerably damaged the building and severely impacted the proper

 5     functioning of the hospital, despite the placement of a Red Cross flag on

 6     the building.  From personal observations of the shelling, the types of

 7     shell fragments found at the hospital, and the placement of the damage

 8     primarily upon the south side of the hospital, the witness determined

 9     that the source of fire was the area under the control of the Army of

10     Republika Srpska.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Thank you for slowing down.

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  In addition to shelling upon the hospital, the

13     hospital's staff and patients were victims of sniper fire, which injured

14     a number of people.  Again, from the placement of the sniper fire damage,

15     the witness determined the source of the fire to be the area under the

16     control of the Army of Republika Srpska.

17             The shelling and sniping campaign in Sarajevo impacted the

18     hospital's access to utilities and medicine, resulting in the provision

19     of medical services under the most dire circumstances.  When large

20     numbers of patients came to the hospital as a result of the shelling, the

21     Markale Market shelling in 1995, for example, the witness was able to

22     observe that most of the wounded or killed were civilians or military

23     members who were off duty.

24             The impact of the shelling and sniping campaign upon the

25     population of Sarajevo, in general, and upon the patients and staff of

Page 6680

 1     the Sarajevo State Hospital, in particular, resulted in mental as well as

 2     physical problems.  Heightened emotions, fear, and depression were

 3     common, particularly since the population faced the risk of death on a

 4     daily basis.  All people in Sarajevo of all ethnicities were equally

 5     exposed to the stress of the war.

 6             That concludes the brief summary of the witness's evidence.

 7             Your Honour, in our filing on last Friday, we had indicated that

 8     we had increased the witness's time from 15 minutes to half an hour.  I

 9     wish to deal with a couple of areas, asking the witness a few questions,

10     which should take no longer than 15 minutes.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:

13        Q.   Doctor, in paragraph 5 of your amalgamated witness statement, you

14     stated you were appointed as the general manager of the hospital.  And in

15     paragraph 79 of the statement, you state that as administrator, you were

16     and continue to be authorised to authenticate copies of medical

17     documents.  In paragraph 93(a) of your statement --

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Could you please slow down for the

19     interpretation.  Thank you.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:

21        Q.   -- which is on page 26, but we won't bring that up, it was a list

22     of medical records that you authenticated in your witness statements of

23     the 10th of November, 1995, and the 9th and 10th of October, 2001.  These

24     were documents that you reviewed last week, and previously authenticated

25     in the two statements I referred to, by either providing original medical

Page 6681

 1     records or certified copies of such records; is that correct?

 2        A.   Yes, Your Honours, that is correct.

 3        Q.   And do these same records that are listed appear to be hospital

 4     or medical records ordinarily produced in the regular course of business?

 5        A.   Yes, that is the result of the services provided daily by all the

 6     hospitals, by the Clinical Centre, the Dobrinja Hospital, the Emergency

 7     Service.  So it's definitely a type of communication and affirmation or

 8     confirmation of certain information essential for patients and also for

 9     the purposes of the treatment.

10        Q.   I want to turn now to the topic of statistics.

11             In paragraph 91 of the statement, you discuss there a document.

12     Perhaps before that:  In your position as the general manager of the

13     State Hospital, did you receive reports in relation to a number of

14     patients -- the number of patients treated in the hospital?

15        A.   Yes.  That was standard procedure for purposes of planning of a

16     certain activity and in order to report to the authorised institutions.

17     Data was grouped every day that was arriving from the Emergency Centre

18     and other hospital services, which comprised collective data about the

19     daily activities of our institution, providing care to the wounded, the

20     injured, or cases of medical treatment for those who were suffering from

21     classic diseases.

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I could ask for Exhibit P01242, please.

23        Q.   This is the document that's the exhibit referred to in

24     paragraph 91 of your statement.  Looking at page 1 of the B/C/S and

25     page 1 and 2 of the English, we can see that this is a report of the

Page 6682

 1     Emergency Centre of the Surgical Department and, over on page 2 in the

 2     English, of the Gynaecological Department for the month of December 1994.

 3     Who generated this report, Doctor?

 4        A.   The reports are a summary of monthly activities of the

 5     Surgical/Emergency Centre of the Sarajevo State Hospital, as well as the

 6     report of the Gynaecology Department of the same hospital.  They were

 7     drafted by medical technicians in both cases who were in charge of

 8     generating this data.  In the specific case, it was the medical

 9     technician from the Emergency Centre responsible for those tasks, and

10     from the Gynaecology Department it was the chief nurse of that

11     department.  The reports are, in essence, a collection of data of the

12     most important activities, and they were previously designed for these

13     purposes of monitoring the number of newly wounded, admitted, number of

14     surgeries, and some other data.

15        Q.   How was this data generated; from what?

16        A.   The data comes from the Official Protocols, the book registering

17     all the patients who were admitted and treated in the Emergency Centre;

18     in the second case, those who were treated at the Gynaecology Department.

19     This is data recorded in the period of one month.  At the end of the

20     month, the data was compiled and presented to me so that I would be able

21     to use it for various purposes.

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could go to page 2 in the B/C/S and

23     pages 3 to 4 in the English.

24        Q.   Doctor, we can see here that it's a report on the number and type

25     of surgeries for December 1994.  Who generated this report?

Page 6683

 1        A.   The report comes from the Central Surgery Section, which was part

 2     of the Surgery Ward/Department of the hospital.  And the data collects

 3     data on the number of surgeries, the types of surgeries, the chief

 4     surgeon, the assistant, the anesthesiologist, the number of surgeries

 5     according to the type of patients to the type of wounded, and the

 6     workload by surgery operating room.  The task for compiling these reports

 7     was given to the medical technician who was in charge of the operation of

 8     the Central Surgical Block.  The data was generated on the basis of the

 9     monthly number of interventions in the Central Surgery Department.

10        Q.   And, again, from where were these figures taken from?

11        A.   These figures were taken from the protocols of interventions in

12     the Central Surgical Block of the Surgery Department.  They have nothing

13     to do with the protocol of the Emergency Centre and the figures that are

14     cited there, other than the fact that those patients who were processed

15     through the Emergency Centre could later end up in the Surgical Section.

16        Q.   We see here, at number 10, the number of surgeries by the type of

17     wounding.  Did these reports also include a report on amputations

18     performed?

19        A.   Specifically in this report, that data is not given.  However, in

20     later reports that were part of these documents, the number of

21     amputations is given, performed within a certain time-period, and

22     specifically that number was entered there because my superiors and the

23     international community sought information about the number of amputees

24     so that they could plan for certain types of aid, for artificial limbs

25     and other kinds of prosthetics.  This information is not in each report,

Page 6684

 1     only in some of the reports.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Who was Dr. Abdulah Nakas?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Dr. Abdulah Nakas was

 4     my brother.  He passed away in 2005, in November.  Throughout the war, he

 5     was the chief surgeon in my hospital, and he was in charge of the

 6     Surgical Department.  After his death, in 2006, at the request of

 7     citizens from Sarajevo and the surrounding area, the Assembly of the

 8     Sarajevo Canton renamed the hospital, naming it after Abdulah Nakas,

 9     honouring everything he did in the previous period.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Doctor.

11             Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could go to page 3 in the B/C/S and

13     pages 5 to 6 in the English.

14        Q.   Doctor, here we see:

15             "Citizens of Sarajevo who were wounded by sniper shot and taken

16     care in the Emergency Centre," for the period August to December 1994 and

17     January to October 1995.

18             Who generated this report?

19        A.   The report that is before you was compiled by myself, personally,

20     in 2007, at the request of the Tribunal.  An interest was expressed in

21     view of the information concerning the total number of citizens from

22     Sarajevo who were wounded by sniper fire in 1994 and in 1995; from August

23     to December 1994 and from January to October 1995, that is.  This was

24     prepared for the Milosevic trial.

25        Q.   And when you say "at the request of the Tribunal," do you -- are

Page 6685

 1     you referring to the Office of the Prosecutor?

 2        A.   Yes, yes, Your Honour.

 3        Q.   And how was this report generated?  Where were the figures taken

 4     from?

 5        A.   These figures were taken from the protocol of the

 6     Emergency Centre; namely, the books from August to December 1994 and from

 7     January to October 1995.  I went through them personally, I looked at the

 8     figures myself, and I compiled the report that is before you.

 9        Q.   And the three separate documents that we have just looked at, if

10     I understood you correctly a moment ago, are not interrelated, but there

11     can be some overlap, is that right, because the protocol is the source of

12     the information?

13        A.   Absolutely correct, Your Honours.  The previous two documents

14     were produced during the course of our work every month, and they had to

15     do with what had been tasked earlier on.  However, this is a report that

16     was specially compiled related to the number of cases that were treated

17     in the mentioned periods.  Practically all of these documents use

18     one-and-the-same source.  However, they present data on the basis of what

19     this report looks like.

20        Q.   And this exhibit has 35 pages in B/C/S and 70 pages in English.

21     You reviewed the entirety of this exhibit.  Is it right that all the

22     reports contained in this exhibit are reports which were produced in the

23     ordinary course of business, except, of course, for this document which

24     we see on the screen, which you prepared for the Dragomir Milosevic case?

25        A.   Yes, that is correct.  It is exactly as you had stated.

Page 6686

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could have Exhibit P01238, please.

 2        Q.   Doctor, what is this document which is shown on the screen?

 3        A.   Your Honours, on the left-hand side in the version in our

 4     language, we see a photocopy of one page of the protocol that was used

 5     during the course of the work of the State Hospital of Sarajevo.  There

 6     are certain rubrics here that have to be filled out.  There is a certain

 7     method of coding, and there are certain codes that are listed here.  They

 8     were in use while it was a military hospital; that is to say, while

 9     members of the JNA were being treated there and when reports were being

10     sent to superiors in Belgrade.

11             In the period from 1992 until 1995, we continued using identical

12     protocols.  However, the way records were kept was changed.  We did not

13     use those codes anymore, but we actually filled this out in the way in

14     which it had been recorded; namely, the date of the examination, the

15     number of protocol, the number of the record involved, the name and

16     surname of the patient, the year of birth, the category involved, and we

17     would put the diagnosis.  We would also provide comments as to the kind

18     of medical intervention that was carried out, and also there is the

19     decision of the physician who examined the doctor [as interpreted],

20     whether a patient was being admitted into hospital or being examined and

21     then sent back home, and would continue to be treated as an outpatient.

22     This is what we call a protocol in our day-to-day life.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you.  That can be taken off the screen.

24        Q.   Doctor, I now wish to turn to focus on the shelling and sniping

25     of the State Hospital.

Page 6687

 1             In paragraph 4 of your statement, you said that you returned to

 2     the hospital on the 10th of May.  In paragraph 34 of your statement, you

 3     stated that the worst period of targeting on the hospital was from the

 4     13th to the 16th of May, 1992, when the hospital was hit by about 40

 5     shells of various kinds, mainly tank and artillery shells.  And in

 6     paragraph 23, you state that between 1992 and 1995, the hospital was hit

 7     with over 200 projectiles and it was subject to direct shooting.

 8     Finally, in paragraphs 23 to 24, and paragraph 31, you state that the

 9     source of the shelling and sniper fire emanated from the area of

10     Trebevic, Osmice, Vrace and Grbavica, which was under the control of the

11     Army of Republika Srpska.  What's the basis of your conclusion that the

12     shelling was the responsibility of the Army of Republika Srpska?

13        A.   Your Honours, all of those who lived in the encircled Sarajevo

14     during this period of time knew quite clearly which part of our city was

15     held by which forces and from which positions shelling or sniping against

16     the citizens of Sarajevo was taking place.  It's not only that we could

17     confirm this and know this; this was confirmed by the international

18     community as well.  It was confirmed by the observers.  It was proven

19     through previous statements made by all persons who spent a certain

20     period of time during the aggression in Sarajevo.

21             As a Sarajevo-born person, I know certain parts of town.  I know

22     roughly what the ethnic affiliation of the population was.  I also know

23     about the abrupt changes that took place after the 2nd of March, after

24     the barricades were put up in Sarajevo.  Some people were taken and

25     others voluntarily went to the areas that were under the control of the

Page 6688

 1     authorities of the Sarajevo government.

 2             The neighbourhood around my hospital was evidently under the

 3     control of the Army of Republika Srpska; at first also of part of the

 4     Yugoslav People's Army, the JNA.  They held large areas.  They had their

 5     manpower and artillery in different barracks.  I'm primarily referring to

 6     Lukavica and the like.

 7        Q.   You said that the damage to the hospital was primarily on the

 8     south side in -- you deal with this issue in paragraphs 19 to 33?

 9        A.   Correct.  The southern side was closest to the line of

10     separation.  It had been damaged the most, too.  On the southern side, if

11     I may correct what you said at the outset, when you said that the flag

12     was on the roof of the hospital, the flag was on the southern side, that

13     is to say, from the roof towards the southern side, and then it was

14     lowered down to a particular floor.  It was an attempt made by the

15     management to provide additional information to those who were supposed

16     to know that this is a medical facility, a medical facility only, and

17     nothing else.

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could all microphones

19     please be switched off while the witness is speaking.  Thank you.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could have 65 ter 10452.

21        Q.   Doctor, what is shown in that photograph?

22        A.   Your Honours, you can see in this photograph the southern side of

23     the State Hospital of Sarajevo.  This photograph was taken from the

24     middle of Dolina Street; that is, on the approaches to the hospital.  On

25     the top, you see a flag of the Red Cross, you see the different floors of

Page 6689

 1     the building, and you see where there are windows and where there are not

 2     windows.  And in most places, there aren't any windows.  On the southern

 3     side, most of the foreigners who came to this hospital called it the

 4     Swiss Cheese Hospital, and that is how they readily recognised it.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you.  And that's referred to in

 6     paragraph 22 of -- that photograph, in paragraph 22 of your statement.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  That will be admitted.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1526, Your Honours.

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:

10        Q.   Dr. Nakas, who was in control of the territory to the south of

11     the hospital?

12        A.   The southern side of the hospital was facing part of the Miljacka

13     and the slopes of Trebevic and Vraca.  The separation line was

14     practically the Miljacka River, Vrbanja Most, Grbavica, so it's that area

15     and those slopes that directly faced the hospital.  That area was under

16     the control of the Army of Republika Srpska.

17        Q.   What, if anything, were you able to observe from the hospital

18     when the shelling was occurring?

19        A.   Well, definitely, when the hospital was being shelled, I had the

20     opportunity of seeing where this was happening.  I had the opportunity of

21     freely assessing this on the basis of the openings that were made and the

22     damage caused by the projectile.  I could see where the projectile had

23     come from.  If we are talking about other possibilities, if you went to

24     the top floors, sometimes you could even see the firing position that a

25     projectile would be fired from because you could see the trail of smoke.

Page 6690

 1        Q.   And this was in relation to all of the areas that we have just

 2     mentioned previously?

 3        A.   Absolutely.  It pertains to these areas and others that are

 4     mentioned in my statement, when I spoke about the beginning of the

 5     shelling of the city of Sarajevo, not only the hospital.

 6        Q.   In paragraph 48 of your statement, you state that it appeared to

 7     you that the Serbs were intent on destroying vital parts of the hospital,

 8     and you base this on the fact that, in your view, they were targeting

 9     specific floors of the hospital.  Is there any other reason why you are

10     of the view that the Serbs were intent on destroying the hospital?

11        A.   Some messages that we received when the previous staff was

12     leaving the hospital on the 9th and 10th of May --

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Could all other microphones please be switched

14     off.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not personally hear this.  It

16     was my staff who heard this.  As they were leaving, they were promising

17     to destroy the hospital once they left, once they moved all of their

18     forces out and once they no longer used the premises.  This is what a

19     medical technician said from a particular department.

20             Another factor involved in hitting the vital parts of the

21     hospital is based on what I heard from Professor Enver Hadzimustafic, who

22     is a professor at the School of Architecture of the University of

23     Sarajevo.  From the beginning of the shelling, he made certain estimates,

24     and he told me that the eighth floor is the weakest point in the hospital

25     building, and there are a few pillars there, and one was hit during the

Page 6691

 1     initial shelling in May 1992.  This confirmed that feeling for me, that

 2     is to say, this wish to destroy the hospital.  That was evident by virtue

 3     of the fact that they were hitting that part of the hospital, not other

 4     parts, or, rather, other parts were hit less.

 5             In addition to that, I can say that also on several occasions

 6     what was targeted were the operating theaters, a vital part of the

 7     hospital.  Also, parts of the hospital that are of vital importance for

 8     the maintenance of the hospital and parts of the hospital that were

 9     essential for logistics purposes; namely, the preparation of food, and

10     clothing, and sterilisation.

11        Q.   Did you ever hear anything at any Crisis Staff -- Crisis Centre

12     meetings about the intention to destroy the hospital?

13        A.   Yes, Your Honours.  As a member of the Crisis Staff, at first I

14     had an opportunity of meeting the heads of key medical institutions of

15     Sarajevo.  That was on a daily basis at first and, later on, a weekly

16     basis.  They were the heads of the health centres and the emergency

17     centres.  At one of these meetings in the beginning of 1992, or, rather,

18     between May and June, we had some information to the effect that

19     Dragan Kalinic, our hitherto colleague, at that point minister of health

20     of Republika Srpska, had instructions for those who were shelling

21     Sarajevo; namely, that they should focus their fire at the

22     Clinical Centre, because if the capacities of that hospital were to be

23     diminished, the citizenry would feel less safe and medical professionals

24     would not have an opportunity of doing their job.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Doctor.

Page 6692

 1             That completes my examination-in-chief, Your Honour.

 2             I seek to tender the associated exhibits, and that is all the

 3     exhibits listed in Appendix A and Confidential Appendix B which have not

 4     already been admitted.

 5             Did Your Honour have the Rule 92 notification in front of you?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Dated when?

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  The 8th of September.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I have it before me.

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  So on page -- Appendix A in the list of

10     associated exhibits, on the second page of those associated exhibits --

11             JUDGE KWON:  There are many items that have already been

12     admitted?

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.  But of the first four -- the

14     first three, I can read the 65 ter numbers if you wish --

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  09519, 1037 --

17             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Where is it?

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  So the associated exhibits start with a number

19     of the witness statements --

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes --

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  [Overlapping speakers]... which we don't seek to

22     tender through him.

23             So the first one is 09519, 10378, 10162 --

24             JUDGE KWON:  Give me a minute.  Yes.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Then the one that follows that has just been

Page 6693

 1     admitted.  That's the photograph.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And so the next one is 10163.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And that is all on that page, because the

 6     remaining two exhibits -- the remaining two have been exhibited already.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  On the following page, none of these exhibits,

 9     because the bottom one, 10418, is, in fact, P00459.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And on the following page, the last exhibit,

12     09991, 65 ter number.  And then in Confidential Appendix B, all of the

13     documents on page 1 and page 2.  On page 3, the last 65 ter exhibit

14     there, which has -- because all the other documents on that page have

15     been admitted, except for the last one that appears on page 3.  On

16     page 4, we can see the first 65 ter has been exhibited, so it's the next

17     five documents.  And then on page 5, we can see the first document has

18     been exhibited, so the next three after that.  And then the

19     second-to-last one is a duplication because it's listed on page 1 of

20     Confidential Appendix B.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  We are on the last page of the

22     Confidential Annex?

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes.

24             JUDGE KWON:  The second item you --

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Second-to-last item.

Page 6694

 1             JUDGE KWON:  The second item was 13172?

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  I think it was admitted as one of the Defence

 4     exhibits, D554.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  I have difficulty following all --

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And so it would only be the two documents under

 8     the document you just referred to.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Again, if it assists --

11             JUDGE KWON:  We will check everything later on, and then with

12     consultation with the Court Deputy, I will let the parties know the

13     exhibit numbers assigned to those exhibits which have not been already

14     tendered --

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE KWON:  -- if it is agreeable to the parties, and then we'll

17     put those confidential documents under seal.

18             Yes, Mr. Robinson.

19             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.

20             We don't object to the associated exhibits.  However, those that

21     have been under seal in other cases, if they don't involve protected

22     witnesses in our case, we would ask that they be admitted not under seal

23     in our case.  And if there are spreadsheets that include both protected

24     witnesses and non-protected witnesses, we would ask that they be

25     submitted with the KDZ number substituted for the name of those who were

Page 6695

 1     protected witnesses and submitted not under seal.

 2             Thank you.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour, that was my understanding of

 4     Your Honour's earlier ruling which I referred to earlier today.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  That will be done outside the courtroom.

 6     Our Legal Officers will consult -- the Court Deputy should consult the

 7     Legal Officers.  Those numbers will be informed in due course.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

10             Can you start, Mr. Karadzic?

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             Good morning to everyone.

13                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Dr. Nakas.

15        A.   Good morning.

16        Q.   I would first of all like to thank you for meeting with the

17     Defence.  This will help us to be specific about a large number of things

18     and to finish more quickly.  And I regret not knowing you before, because

19     we could have fought together for the preservation of Yugoslavia.  That

20     position of yours on the preservation of Yugoslavia was a large, pleasant

21     surprise for me.

22             Dr. Nakas, you have a statement here of 96 paragraphs, and you

23     confirmed that you stand by that statement.  Is the information in these

24     paragraphs something from your direct experience and should be considered

25     in the record as your contribution to the evidence?

Page 6696

 1        A.   Your Honours, all the information in all of the 96 paragraphs is

 2     my knowledge about the events in the period from 1992 to 1995 in

 3     Sarajevo.  As for whether I am the author, or just a participant, or just

 4     the person with knowledge of these events is not that relevant.  What is

 5     relevant is that I stand by the information as a participant, to a

 6     degree, as somebody who received some information, and as somebody who

 7     was aware of some information that everyone else was aware of.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Why I'm asking this is because my learned colleague,

 9     Ms. Sutherland, spent one hour.  I also have one hour.  I have 96

10     paragraphs of yours to go through, so it would help me if you were able

11     to indicate some of those paragraphs and say that this is something that

12     you had heard, so that I would not have to go through all of those

13     paragraphs and deal with their reliability.

14             Are there any paragraphs that you would not stand by in this

15     statement?

16        A.   Your Honours, the paragraphs where the knowledge is second-hand

17     knowledge are very few.  They are practically nonexistent.  The

18     paragraphs contain my knowledge, my conviction that those things did take

19     place, which was confirmed by people with whom I spent my work hours in

20     occupied Sarajevo, and for that reason none of the paragraphs is of such

21     a nature that I could point to it and say I no longer stand by this

22     paragraph because what is there does no longer stand.  I was a

23     participant or I have strong conviction that those who conveyed this

24     information to you -- to me were properly informed.  So there is no

25     hearsay in any of the paragraphs, and definitely there is nothing there

Page 6697

 1     that is not true.

 2        Q.   Thank you, Dr. Nakas.  Then you will understand that I will have

 3     to go through each one of those paragraphs in order not to let them stand

 4     as possible grounds for a future conviction.

 5             Can we now look at the map of the town.  This is Map 13 from the

 6     map compilation.  This is ERN 0546-6581.

 7             We were practicing this a little bit, marking the map and all the

 8     locations, so I hope that this would be somewhat easier for you now.

 9             I would be very grateful to Ms. Sutherland if she could help us.

10     This is 0546-6581, Map 13 in the binder.

11             JUDGE KWON:  It's a part of a broken-down map, yes.  I hope

12     Mr. Reid could help us.

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  65 ter 13519, Your Honour.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, that's it.  Thank you.

15             Can we please zoom it.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Actually, Dr. Nakas, do you agree that this is the map of town,

18     the old town and the center, and that we can see the town from the

19     railway station to Bascarsija to Bembasa?

20        A.   Yes, that is the part of town, including the locations referred

21     to from old town -- including the old town and the center.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please now zoom in on the

23     left third, between Kovaci and Kovacici, precisely where the cursor is.

24     Could we zoom in on that part of the map, please.  Thank you.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 6698

 1        Q.   Dr. Nakas, can I ask you to mark the complex of the

 2     Military Hospital and to briefly tell us what the buildings are?  You can

 3     mark and indicate -- tell us what each building is.

 4        A.   The complex of the State Hospital of Sarajevo is on the map,

 5     marked with this red line [marks].  There is a group of buildings that

 6     are interconnected.  This is the oldest part of the hospital, where the

 7     administration and the poly clinic are.  That's this part here [marks].

 8     And then the part where the diagnostics activity takes place, it's

 9     connected to this other building.  And then the central part --

10        Q.   Doctor, since this is a hospital, are you able to mark these

11     buildings with 1, 2 and 3?

12        A.   Yes, of course.  This is number 1 [marks].  This is the poly

13     clinic building and the administration buildings.  Number 2 is the

14     central building with diagnostics and the Emergency Centre on the ground

15     floor [marks].  Then we have number 3.  That is that part of the building

16     here [marks], and that is the central building that has 12 floors.  It's

17     a little bit difficult -- actually, there is no dominant line here.  It's

18     all along one line, so it's not quite correct on the map.  This part here

19     [marks] is where the logistics are.  This is where the kitchen, the

20     laundry are, and other areas.  And then this is the ground floor annex

21     where patients also were placed [marks].  This part here is the old

22     military hospital and the hostel which was not used in the aggression --

23     during the aggression on Bosnia and Herzegovina.  This is the layout and

24     the location of the facilities of the Sarajevo State Hospital in the

25     period from 1992 to 1995 [marks].

Page 6699

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Sorry to interrupt.

 3             Mr. Karadzic may be going to get the witness to repeat again what

 4     stands for number 4 and number 5 that he's just marked on the map,

 5     because the transcript is going to be unclear.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Doctor, if you could tell us what those

 7     number 4 and number 5 mean.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the numbers 4 and 5 --

 9     first 4.  "4" indicates the number of the hospital where the logistics

10     are situated; the kitchen, the laundry, and all those other services

11     essential for the functioning of the hospital, in terms of logistics.

12     The number of the building -- the part of the building marked with the

13     "5" is the building where patients are placed.  This is a four-floor

14     hospital facility, and all of these buildings are interconnected.  If you

15     enter one side, you can leave through the other end, and they are

16     interconnected with a series of underground passages and certain

17     hallways.  They constitute the connection between the various buildings.

18             This is a very modern facility built by the Yugoslav People's

19     Army.  It designed it, and it was built for its own needs.  And in the

20     former Yugoslavia, this was the third-ranking hospital after Belgrade and

21     Zagreb Hospitals.  Unfortunately, in the aggression large parts of this

22     beautiful hospital could not be used, and our lives, actually, during the

23     first years went on mostly in the basement cellars and protected areas,

24     where our patients were located.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Please go on.

Page 6700

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2        Q.   Can you help us, Dr. Nakas, so that we can avoid confusion?  If

 3     we're talking about the Military Hospital, and then the State Hospital,

 4     and then the City Hospital, and then the French Hospital and the

 5     Dr. Abdulah Nakas Hospital, are we referring to one-and-the-same

 6     hospital?

 7        A.   Yes, absolutely correct, this is one-and-the-same hospital which

 8     up until 1992 was called the Military Hospital; then from May 25th, 1992,

 9     was referred to as the State Hospital of Sarajevo.  For a brief period of

10     time the people referred to it as the French Hospital because there were

11     rumours that France would protect the hospital in some way.  This never

12     took place and it was never officially named the French Hospital.  After

13     that, in 2000 it became the General Hospital of Sarajevo.  And then after

14     the death of my brother in 2005, it has been called Dr. Abdulah Nakas

15     General Hospital of Sarajevo.

16             So when we're talking about all of these names, we're talking

17     about the same hospital, and the people most often actually referred to

18     it as the former Military Hospital.

19        Q.   Thank you very much.  Now let's look at number 5.  Number 5 is an

20     old building which you said was a hostel, and the hospital did not use

21     that building during the war.  What was in that building or who was in

22     that building during the war?

23        A.   That is not number 5.  This is the separate building here which

24     I'm marking with the number 6 [marks].  That building was not used during

25     the first half, practically until autumn 1992, when it was requisitioned

Page 6701

 1     by the 1st Corps as a building.  And then that building and another

 2     building that is not shown here were used as a rehabilitation centre for

 3     the treatment and surgery of members of the 1st Corps of the Army of

 4     Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 5        Q.   Could you mark that with a number 7, this place where the

 6     soldiers went for treatment and rehabilitation?

 7        A.   [Marks]

 8        Q.   So 6 and 7 were requisitioned by the Army of Bosnia and

 9     Herzegovina towards the end of 1992; is that correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And now can you please mark the old Military Hospital between the

12     Kranjcevica and Marsala Tita Street?  Could you mark that location and

13     also put a number there?

14        A.   [Marks]

15        Q.   Thank you.  What was in that building before the war and during

16     the war?

17        A.   Your Honour, for your information, this is where the first

18     Turkish Military Hospital was built in 1866, so we are their successors.

19     Before the events in question in 1992, it was abandoned.  The

20     Military Hospital personnel moved to the new building, and this old

21     building was handed over to the Romanija Military Enterprise which

22     supplied the armed forces members with food.  We had some workshops in a

23     part of this building, also some warehouses for technical parts for

24     surgery, tables and some equipment that we used, so we used this until

25     1992.  Until 1992, this was more in the property of the Romanija Military

Page 6702

 1     Company, and our ownership of it was not a factor.

 2        Q.   Could you please mark the mosque?

 3        A.   The mosque is not marked here, but we do see the Magribija

 4     Street, and we have this building which is immediately above the

 5     Military Hospital.  I know that area, I live and work there, so I know

 6     that on the opposite side of this wall there was the Magribija Mosque.

 7     It was there then, and it's still there today.

 8        Q.   Could you please mark this with the number 9?

 9        A.   [Marks]

10        Q.   It's not Marsala Tita.  Actually, could you indicate with an

11     arrow that it's more towards the letter G?

12        A.   [Marks]

13        Q.   Dr. Nakas, how many mosques does Sarajevo have, roughly?

14        A.   Quite a few, quite a few, but never enough.

15        Q.   Thank you.  How many of them were hit?

16        A.   A larger number were hit.  Specifically, in Sarajevo and around

17     Sarajevo, some were destroyed.  Those that were in the center were also

18     destroyed.  Practically, not a single one was razed to the ground, but

19     there were some physical damages involved; perhaps the minaret was

20     destroyed or the roof, but none of them were totally destroyed,

21     physically, because none of them ever fell into the hands of those into

22     whose hands they were not supposed to fall.

23        Q.   Doctor, I'm going to put something to you now; that only

24     Magribija and the mosque at Kobilja Glava had been hit, the others

25     remained intact.  Do you know that the Magribija Mosque was an arms depot

Page 6703

 1     of the Green Berets and that fire was opened at the Military Hospital

 2     from the minaret of that mosque?

 3        A.   I do not consider that assertion to be correct at all, absolutely

 4     not.  That is what you are saying.  I know that Magribija was used for

 5     prayer whenever possible.  As for what you're saying now, this is very,

 6     very new information.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  We're going to show documents about that.

 8             Could you link these three levels of Avdo Jabucica Street to the

 9     north?

10        A.   On the map, you can see that there is practically two parts of

11     this street that are named Avdo Jabucica, this part and that part

12     [marks].  There's a bit of a climb involved, so it is an S-shaped street.

13     It's in this area.

14        Q.   Can you use a vertical line to connect all of them there?  I see

15     three levels of Avdo Jabucica Street, and I remember the layout of the

16     street.  When I went looking for some friends of mine, I had trouble

17     finding them.

18        A.   [Marks]

19        Q.   It is like a serpentine; you're right.

20             Now, is that Crni Vrh, this Elevation 614?

21        A.   According to the map, you can see that the name is Crni Vrh and

22     the elevation is 614, yes.

23        Q.   Thank you, Doctor.  Do you know that below Crni Vrh, below the

24     street of Omera Stupca, on that clearing there there was a Howitzer?

25        A.   No, this is the first time I hear of it, from you.

Page 6704

 1        Q.   Thank you.  You're going to believe a map of the Army of Bosnia

 2     and Herzegovina, I hope.  Let's move on.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can you show that?

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I was going to say, could the

 6     accused please put a time-frame with his questions?

 7             Just for the record, can we note that the witness marked number 8

 8     as the old Military Hospital, because that is not in the record.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

10             I think it's time to have a break.

11             We can keep this for the moment, or shall we ask the witness to

12     put the date and your signature on the map, with the assistance of our

13     usher, please?  Could you write down the date, which is 14th of

14     September.

15             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

16             JUDGE KWON:  And your signature, please.

17             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, but we'll go back to

19     this because we need to have some other things marked on this map as

20     well.  So perhaps we can deal with that later.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll continue with this map.

22             We'll have a break for 20 minutes and resume at quarter to 11.00.

23                           --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 10.49 a.m.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

Page 6705

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             Just a few more notes on this map, Doctor.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Can you mark the Unis buildings, one circle around Momo and the

 5     other one around Uzeir?  One is a Serb name, the other is a Muslim name,

 6     and these are the names that people popularly refer to as a joke.

 7        A.   It's in this part [marks].

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Are we in trouble?  We saved that already.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If that's the way it is, can we see

10     the total of the map, because we need to mark a few other locations, and

11     then we're done with the map.

12             The left -- or, rather, the two-thirds of the map on the left,

13     could we have that?

14             Has this been assigned a number, anyway?

15             JUDGE KWON:  Not yet.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we keep this, and then -- ah,

17     yes.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Momo and Uzeir, can you mark those two Unis buildings?  You need

20     a pen, don't you?

21             JUDGE KWON:  This seems to be a somewhat different one.  Just in

22     case, we'll give the exhibit number which has been already marked, just

23     in case.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, that will be Exhibit D615.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

Page 6706

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             Can I have the two-thirds of the map that are on the left, or can

 3     we see the entire map once again so that we don't disrupt anything in any

 4     way.  Perhaps we can have it as a new exhibit.  Yes.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Now, can you mark the Unis buildings here?

 7             Actually, we don't see Debelo Brdo and the Kosevo Tunnel.  We

 8     need a bit more, so we actually have to have a different scale.  Can we

 9     see the lower and the upper margins, if possible?

10             JUDGE KWON:  Why don't we bring up the 65 ter 13519.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's right, that's what I meant.

12     It can remain as it is now.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Doctor, can you put a circle around the Military Hospital, and

15     then Ciglane, and then the Kosevo Tunnel?

16        A.   Your Honours, now the map is a bit different, in terms of its

17     dimensions, so it's easy for me to put a circle around the Sarajevo

18     State Hospital [marks].  Then Ciglane, that's a bit more difficult.

19        Q.   Can't you see it?  It's written up there?

20        A.   I could only imagine that this is Ciglane, but I'm not sure.

21        Q.   But it's written there and you can see it, can't you?

22        A.   Not on my map.  I can't read any of the names, except for those

23     that are in big letters.

24        Q.   To the north, Kovaci and then Ciglane?

25        A.   It's this part here, sorry.  Yes, this part [Marks].

Page 6707

 1        Q.   Can you mark that as number 2?  Put a circle and write number 2

 2     there, please.

 3        A.   [Marks]

 4        Q.   Now, the Kosevo Tunnel, the Kosevo Tunnel, could you mark that?

 5        A.   Number 1 is the State Hospital.  Then now --

 6        Q.   To the north, way up north.

 7        A.   It's possible that it's somewhere around here [marks].  Ciglane

 8     is here, and then it could be --

 9        Q.   If I may be of assistance, it's towards the very top.

10        A.   Ah, the top.  As far as I know, this is a railroad leading to the

11     railway station.  So in that area, the only possible position of the

12     tunnel would be somewhere around here [marks].

13        Q.   If I may be of assistance.  Do you remember the hill of Kosevo

14     and then the tunnel?  It's to the north, further north.  Can you see it?

15        A.   Unfortunately, no.

16        Q.   Up here at the very top, it says "Cemetery" in English.

17        A.   Here?

18        Q.   All right.  The tunnel can be seen, it's marked, but it's at the

19     very top, at the very edge of this image.

20             Oh, it's all right.  Can you see Debelo Brdo down there?

21        A.   That's what's written here, "Debelo Brdo."

22        Q.   Can you mark it as number 3, because we haven't marked the

23     tunnel.

24        A.   [Marks]

25        Q.   Can I now ask you to put a circle around the bridge on Vrbanja?

Page 6708

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2        Q.   That would be number 4.  Then the bridge at Skenderija and the

 3     place where, on the 2nd of May, people who left the Military Hospital

 4     going to Dom Armija got killed.

 5        A.   [Marks]

 6        Q.   Yes, that's right.  That's number 5, isn't it?  Now, the Unis

 7     buildings, please.

 8        A.   [Marks]

 9        Q.   Now, can you mark Astra that we discussed already?

10        A.   Your Honours, during our interview we discussed these buildings

11     that are in the immediate vicinity of Momo and Uzeir.  These are

12     residential buildings in Kranjcevica Street, and we discussed that

13     whether -- I was asked whether Astra, the building of Astra was there.

14     However, it was Alpina that was there, not Astra.  The Astra building

15     actually relates to a completely different building in New Sarajevo, in a

16     neighbourhood that is very close to the TV station.  In this high-rise,

17     there is a store, a shoe store, Alpina, not Astra, so my mistake.

18        Q.   I agree.  Do you know that Alpina was a facility of the

19     Green Berets during the war?

20        A.   This is the first time I hear of this.

21        Q.   Do you know that the Unis buildings -- I apologise to the

22     interpreters, but I am so pressed for time.

23             Do you know that the Unis buildings were a military facility,

24     that the command of a unit was there, and that they were firing from

25     those buildings?

Page 6709

 1        A.   Your Honours, I witnessed the torching of these two buildings in

 2     May and June 1992, so I watched this with my very own eyes.  I watched

 3     the buildings burn.  So it was not possible for anyone to be staying

 4     there, except for birds, if there were any in Sarajevo at the time.

 5        Q.   Are you trying to say, Doctor, that not even on the ground floor

 6     or in the basement there could be no command of a military unit and that

 7     these skyscrapers were not being used to fire at buildings around them?

 8        A.   As far as I know, no.  Again, I did not go there myself,

 9     physically, because we had considered themselves to be abandoned.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Can you mark the Catholic Church at Marin Dvor, in

11     relation to Trscanska Street, for instance?  It's where number 8 is, if I

12     may lead in that way.

13        A.   [Marks]

14        Q.   So can you assign number 7 to Alpina and number 8 to the Catholic

15     Church?

16        A.   [Marks]

17        Q.   Do you know that right by the Catholic Church, there was the

18     logistics base of a brigade, probably King Tvrtko?

19        A.   I don't know about that.  I know that in the immediate vicinity

20     of the Catholic Church, the Police Administration was located there,

21     Centar, the one that was in charge of the safety and security of citizens

22     in the area.  As for the location of any military unit in that area, I

23     really have no knowledge of that.

24        Q.   Thank you.  That was my second question, and you've already

25     responded.

Page 6710

 1             Can you mark the Zagreb Hotel, please, in relation to what you've

 2     marked so far?  Is that in the continuation of Magribija or thereabouts?

 3        A.   It's approximately here [marks].

 4        Q.   Could you mark that with number 9, please?

 5        A.   [Marks]

 6        Q.   Would you agree that the Hotel Zagreb was turned into a Green

 7     Beret military facility?  Actually, later it was the Army of

 8     Bosnia-Herzegovina later?

 9        A.   I know that for a while refugees were put up in that hotel.  I

10     don't know where military facilities were located.  I didn't hear that

11     that was it there.

12        Q.   Can you circle, next to the police building -- can you -- the

13     building of the Police Service, because that was related to military

14     action, do you see it?  Can you circle the police building?

15        A.   If this is Veliki Park --

16        Q.   This is Trampina and Veliki Park, so then it's higher up as you

17     go farther.  It's a large building, the only large building in black

18     there.  Is that the police building?  It's fork-shaped.

19        A.   Well, it's possible, but there is no indication that it could be

20     so.  If this is Veliki Park, then the building could be that one, because

21     it's right at the top of that park [marks].

22        Q.   Can you please circle that and mark it with a number.

23        A.   [Marks]

24        Q.   Thank you.  Can you also just draw the line along the Miljacka

25     River where the line of separation was?  This is towards the hospital.

Page 6711

 1        A.   For us, the Miljacka River was the separation line, practically.

 2     So up to this bridge [marks], and from the bridge on it was behind this

 3     side and upwards in this direction [marks].

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please encircle the buildings of the

 5     Parliament and the building of the Government of Sarajevo?

 6        A.   This is the Parliament building and this is the Government

 7     building.

 8        Q.   Can you mark them with numbers 11 and 12, please?

 9        A.   [Marks]

10        Q.   What was between Vrbanja, the Serbian positions, and the

11     Military Hospital?  Who was keeping this territory?

12        A.   The territory between Vrbanja and the State Hospital was under

13     the control of the army, that is to say, under the control of the regular

14     authorities of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the police stations.

15        Q.   Do you think that Serbs were not the regular authorities of

16     Bosnia-Herzegovina, even though we won one-third of authorities in 1990?

17        A.   I just know the regular Bosnia and Herzegovina that was

18     recognised by international authorities and that was confirmed at the

19     referendum in March 1990.

20        Q.   All right.  Let us not deal with this topic.

21             Let me ask you this:  In one of your statements, you say that you

22     were aware that Serbs planned to cut through the city.  I will find which

23     protocol it is.  Let me try to locate the paragraph.

24             How do you know that Serbs or the JNA planned to cut through the

25     city?  Who planned to cut through the city?  Can you specify who it was,

Page 6712

 1     and what was the line that they planned?

 2        A.   Your Honours, having certain information about the situation in

 3     the State Hospital and the Military Hospital immediately before I left it

 4     on the 8th of April, the Yugoslav People's Army did not plan to abandon

 5     these facilities.  When I was the head of the Contagious Diseases

 6     Department, even though I was excluded from many activities in early

 7     1992, though I was an equal member, the information about the possible

 8     abandoning of these facilities was nonexistent.

 9             Another fact that convinced me was that the equipment from the

10     former Military Hospital, on the 9th and 10th of May, was not dismantled

11     and taken away; I mean, the basic equipment.  That means that they did

12     not plan to use it elsewhere.

13             The third fact, suggesting the intention to cut through the city

14     in May and attack the Presidency building with tanks which appeared at

15     the Skenderija Bridge, it was evident, even for a layman, that there was

16     an intention to cut the city of Sarajevo in two parts along

17     Djuro Djakovic Street, which is hereabouts [marks], so that the western

18     part would then be under the control of the Army of Republika Srpska,

19     whereas the central part would remain fully encircled.

20             And the third -- or, rather, the fourth fact was the fierceness

21     of the Pofalici battle, which was intended to be used in order to occupy

22     that part of Sarajevo at any cost and move the separation line all the

23     way to Alipasina Street.  I was a soldier partly by profession, and that

24     allowed me to assess that that was the plan of the part of the Yugoslav

25     People's Army which sided itself with the other side, and also the

Page 6713

 1     intention of the members of the Army of Republika Srpska.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Doctor, you have expanded this to include many

 3     unreliable facts, and, therefore, I have a lot of work to do.  Let us try

 4     to agree about this.

 5             Were the Marsal Tito Barracks and the Military Hospital

 6     facilities that were owned by the Yugoslav People's Army?

 7        A.   Not precisely the Yugoslav People's Army, but rather the Federal

 8     Secretariat of National Defence.

 9        Q.   And its organ was the Yugoslav People's Army; correct?

10        A.   Yes, it was one of its functional organs.

11        Q.   And was there a plan to cut the city in two, connected with the

12     intention to take hold of their property and also to pull out the

13     soldiers from Marsal Tito Barracks?

14        A.   As a citizen of Sarajevo, I can just say that in one moment there

15     was an agreement to evacuate the personnel from Marsal Tito Barracks, and

16     that they were peacefully evacuated, as far as I can remember.

17        Q.   That was in the month of June; correct?

18        A.   I'm not sure about the date.

19        Q.   Doctor, when did tanks appear in Skenderija, and where did they

20     come from?

21        A.   The tanks appeared on the 2nd of May, as far as I have learned,

22     and they had come from the direction of Grbavica, or, rather, from

23     Lukavica, Vrace and Grbavica.  That was the only possible route from

24     which a tank could have come.

25        Q.   Doctor, I will now tell you that there were no tanks anywhere on

Page 6714

 1     the 2nd of May.

 2             In the place which you marked with number 5, I believe, on the

 3     2nd of May, in two ambulances and one open Pinzgauer, the crew from the

 4     Military Hospital, which set off to evacuate the wounded from the Army

 5     Centre, and this is documented, there were no tanks anywhere on the 2nd

 6     of May, and these people died, they were practically burned, two

 7     ambulances and one Pinzgauer; isn't that correct?

 8        A.   Your Honours, I left the former Military Hospital on the 8th of

 9     April, 1992, so the information as to who was staying at the hospital is

10     not something I had directly and personally, but I heard it from people

11     who were there.  So on the 2nd of May, I was not physically present at

12     the hospital, but what I do know from later conversations and from

13     recordings and broadcasts by the Sarajevo TV, the persons we are talking

14     about now were not personnel of the Military Hospital.  No

15     Military Hospital staff member was either wounded or killed.  These were

16     primarily members of a special unit from Nis, the Nis specialists who,

17     immediately after I left, I think, on the 10th of April, entered the

18     Military Hospital and took over its security, under quotation marks.

19     They took control of all the higher floors, took certain positions, and

20     in the office in which I had been the chief until the 8th of May, was now

21     accommodated the chief of that unit.  What I learned was that the

22     ambulances and the Pinzgauer contained members of the special unit from

23     Nis and not a single staff member of the Military Hospital.

24        Q.   We'll come to that, and we have documents about that as well.

25             And on the 3rd of May, Doctor, were there any tanks on that date,

Page 6715

 1     or am I right that on the 3rd of May there was another convoy of the JNA

 2     which was leaving with the guarantees of the president of the Presidency,

 3     Alija Izetbegovic, and the supervision of General MacKenzie, was moving

 4     in the opposite direction, but that then the convoy was cut through and

 5     some people were killed there?

 6        A.   Your Honours, I know about this transport and the incident that

 7     happens, but I do not have any information about the specific

 8     circumstances, just as I do not know much about the death of these

 9     members of the special unit.  I don't have direct information, and I use

10     the date just as my assessment about the plans to cut through this part

11     of the city and divide it into two.

12        Q.   Do you have any information --

13             JUDGE MORRISON:  Dr. Karadzic, this is more of a discussion

14     between yourself and the witness, rather than a cross-examination, and

15     the danger of it is exactly as is being produced.  The witness is being

16     encouraged to go beyond the evidence in his statement and to make

17     assumptions and repeat hearsay that he's heard.  This is not to doubt his

18     ability to do that.  I'm not talking about credibility.  I'm talking

19     about ability to do it.  But it's going to expand on the evidence

20     enormously, which is something that you are complaining about, but you

21     are actually creating this expansion rather than identifying parts of the

22     witness's evidence which you can test and asking him closed, specific

23     questions.  Of course, you can ask leading questions, you're

24     cross-examining, but asking him specific questions about those matters.

25     The danger is that this will become an open-ended discussion and go well

Page 6716

 1     beyond the time allocated to you, without you having dealt with the

 2     essential material issues.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  And we lost the marked map.  But you spent more than

 4     half an hour, almost 40 minutes, with the witness, asking the witness to

 5     mark the map, which turned out to be useless because the witness was not

 6     able to confirm anything about what you stated, your statement which you

 7     put to the witness.  So it's a total waste of time.  Spend your time

 8     efficiently.

 9             You have spent 45 minutes, and please try to conclude your

10     cross-examination in 20 minutes.  Ask relevant questions which should be

11     put to this witness.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

13             Could we please bring back the map and admit it as an exhibit?

14             And as for concluding, it is impossible for me to question this

15     witness.  I was allowed one hour because the OTP announced that their

16     direct examination would last 15 minutes, but they have quadrupled that,

17     so it is to be expected that the cross-examination time would also be

18     quadrupled.  If we work in this way and if the speed is detrimental for

19     the Defence, then I will certain believe that this witness has not been

20     properly cross-examined.  There are 96 paragraphs, and the witness stands

21     by all of them.  He claims that this is truth which he checked by direct

22     information.  This is something I cannot accept.

23             JUDGE KWON:  All I can say, that calculation should not be done

24     in that way of pro rata.  His evidence is mainly in written evidence, his

25     amalgamated statement.  The fact that the Prosecution spent more time

Page 6717

 1     than anticipated has a certain bearing, but that should not be calculated

 2     as you put it, pro rata.

 3             I was told that we can use the video image of that map later on

 4     to up-load and give the number, but at the moment in the e-court, we lost

 5     the marked map.

 6             Yes, Judge Morrison.

 7             JUDGE MORRISON:  If it assists, it isn't necessary, even though

 8     you don't agree with everything in the witness's evidence, to go through

 9     it paragraph by paragraph.  You can make the point, as you have, that you

10     don't accept the conclusions.  The Court will understand that.  The

11     evidence that you produce in due course to counteract the material

12     contained in the statement is what will be the evidence in the case, and

13     it will be up to the Trial Chamber to compare and contrast and put it

14     into context with all the other evidence that is heard.  But you don't

15     have to go through every paragraph with the witness and, as it were,

16     argue the point.  The Court is well aware that you will be contesting

17     those matters which are detrimental to your case.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, we'll give you until the end of this

19     session, which means by 12.00.  So you should be able to conclude your

20     cross-examination by noon today.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we please remove

22     the map.

23             Can the number be assigned to the previous map, the total, so

24     that we could save it from the video?

25             And could we now see 1D00418.

Page 6718

 1             JUDGE KWON:  The second marked map will be exhibited as

 2     Exhibit D616.  And just in case, why don't we admit the clean version of

 3     this map for reference purposes.  That will be admitted as Exhibit D617.

 4             And let's move on.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             Could we please see 1D00418.  Thank you.  I'm not sure if we have

 7     a translation.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Dr. Nakas, just briefly, I will direct your attention to this

10     document from the 1st Corps, sent to Amir Deljkic, deputy -- no,

11     assistant commander of the 7th Mountain or Bosnian Brigade, and it says,

12     for example:

13             "The HVO units," if you look at the third paragraph, "The HVO

14     unit located at Marin Dvor," according to information received from

15     Nermin Eminovic or Aminovic [phoen], assistant commander of the district

16     staff of the defence of Sarajevo for security, is directly connected to

17     the OKBO Sarajevo, and it's an integral part of the

18     12th Mountain Brigade.  This assistant also provided us with the

19     following information:  HVO units in Mejtas, in [indiscernible] Street,

20     are connected with the Main Staff of the HVO," and so on.

21             The HOS unit is deployed in Avdo Jabucica Street.  It's a kind of

22     military police, and it's under the command of the HOS staff.

23             Is it the Avdo Jabucica Street which is behind the

24     Military Hospital?

25        A.   Your Honours, as far as I know, there is only one Avdo Jabucica

Page 6719

 1     Street in Sarajevo, and perhaps this part of text might be referring to

 2     this street.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             Can we please admit this?

 5             JUDGE KWON:  We'll mark it for identification.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D618, Your Honour.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             Can we please now see 1D02110.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   While this appears on the screen, Doctor - let us not show the

11     photograph of the hospital again - two questions.  What damage of the

12     building dates before the 10th of May and what damage was sustained after

13     the 10th of May?

14        A.   We are talking about the State Hospital again, so not the

15     Military Hospital, I mean the former Military Hospital.  In the

16     photograph, 99.9 per cent of all damage was caused after the 10th of May,

17     1992.

18        Q.   And how do you calculate that?

19        A.   I wasn't calculating at all.  When I returned to the hospital on

20     the 10th of May, I entered through that door, and I looked at the

21     southern facade with my very own eyes.  On it, I could see a hole where

22     probably a Zolja had hit the building, and there was a number of small

23     points of damage on the building which looked like damage caused by small

24     arms.  There were instances -- no instances of other damage, such as

25     broken windows.

Page 6720

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Who was shooting at the Military Hospital before the

 2     10th of May?

 3        A.   Your Honours, before the 10th of May, that is to say, until the

 4     8th of April, I was working at the hospital, and I did not personally see

 5     that anyone shot a single shot at the hospital, at least not in the parts

 6     of the building that I was moving through.  And I was in the four-storey

 7     building, also in the central building, in the administration building at

 8     the 12th floor, and I did not have any information that anything like

 9     that happened.

10             After my departure and after the entry of the Nis Special Unit,

11     which probably began to use the facility for different purposes at that

12     time, it is possible that in order to respond to provocation from certain

13     parts, the forces located in the city responded in one way or another.

14        Q.   Doctor, two or three things.  The Nis Special Unit is a unit of

15     the Yugoslav People's Army which came there to defend the property of the

16     Yugoslav People's Army, so you say they were probably using it.  Do you

17     know whether the military special unit which took over the securing of

18     the hospital took over its use or not?  Do you believe it's probable?

19        A.   Your Honours, when I said "probable," I said it in the context of

20     what's possible, but I could personally see there were remnants of shell

21     cases which were in the southern part of the hospital, under the windows,

22     and you may be certain that they were not the result of work of medical

23     experts, but rather from the people who were actively firing on the city

24     from these very windows.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Doctor, how do you explain that only the glass was

Page 6721

 1     damaged, and that on the construction or the walls of the building, there

 2     are no such traces?

 3        A.   The question is not clear to me.

 4        Q.   Well, let's look at the photograph.  Had we had time, we would

 5     have looked at it again.  On the photograph, all you can see is damaged

 6     glass.  As we heard from a previous witness, a tank shell can cause a lot

 7     of damage with a direct strike, so how do you explain that the walls were

 8     not damaged and that only the glass had shattered?

 9        A.   Your Honours, the photograph that was shown in no case --

10             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we bring up the photo, Exhibit P1526.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Doctor, can you see that what is mostly damaged here is glass?

13     Where are these shells up until you came, and 200 shells after that?

14     Where are the traces of those entry holes of tank shells shown on this

15     building before and after you came?  Can you point out one?

16             JUDGE KWON:  So, Doctor, would you like to mark on the map -- on

17     the photo?  Please wait.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was asked, Your Honour, to

19     indicate what such a place could be.  [Marks]

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Doctor, you are saying that you have marked now the entry points

22     of tank shells?

23        A.   Your Honours, I did not state in any case that all 200 shells

24     were tank shells.  Some of them were tank shells.  Most of those tank

25     shells actually were armoured ones that would just pass through the walls

Page 6722

 1     and end up in other parts of the building; some in elevators, some in

 2     other areas.  Most of these strikes are the results of mortar shells that

 3     hit the building.

 4        Q.   But where did they enter?  Did they enter from the south side?

 5     They didn't enter the front door.  They had to pass through the wall.

 6     Can you show us where those 200 grenades hit the building of the

 7     Military Hospital?  And you can see that the windows were broken by

 8     small-calibre weapons?

 9        A.   Well, that's an impression that you can have, probably.  But all

10     200 shells did not only hit this part.  There is the whole length of the

11     southern part of the hospital.  There are the surgical wards where a

12     guided rocket entered through the window.

13             Your Honours, I'm not an artillery expert, and I absolutely

14     cannot speak about the consequences caused by specific artillery weapons

15     on buildings.  This is a matter for experts in that field.  I, as a

16     former JNA officer, can just assume how and in what way this destruction

17     occurred.  Perhaps I'm better acquainted with the destruction of the

18     human body.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Doctor, sir, you saw the places

20     from where fire was shot.  You've seen the type of shells, and you've

21     seen shells hitting the southern part of the hospital, 200 shells.  And

22     you can see here the damage on the windows.  And we cannot establish what

23     happened before the 10th of May and what happened after the 10th of May.

24             Can we please admit this, after it is initialled and the date is

25     placed on it?  It should be a Defence exhibit.

Page 6723

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Could you put the date and your signature on this

 2     marked photo, Doctor?

 3             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now briefly look at 1D02389.

 5     1D2389.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  But before that:  Did you put any question in

 7     relation to the document we saw before, 1D2110?

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We will come back to that, but this

 9     has to do with the floors of the Military Hospital, specifically.

10                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

11             JUDGE KWON:  Just before that, we'll give the number for the

12     marked photo.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D619.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Doctor, sir, we have a statement of yours here in "Dani"

16     magazine.  This is from the archives of "Dani."  It's a Sarajevo

17     publication, and it says here:

18             "People have started to bypass the hospital, not only because it

19     was on the line of sniper fire.  I, as a then employee of the hospital, a

20     Sarajevo man, was upset by the fact that patients who needed to go there

21     didn't go there.  This lasted until the moment when the Markale case

22     occurred, when I sat in the car, went to the Clinical Centre and took the

23     patients who were waiting up there because they couldn't wait their turn,

24     and we were there without work.  This was a crucial moment, a key moment,

25     and then the hospital again became a city hospital, a peoples' hospital."

Page 6724

 1             So until Markale, you didn't actually have much to do, did you?

 2        A.   We took over the hospital on the 10th of May.  And during that

 3     period, we absolutely cared for the patients who were already there and

 4     patients who would come for examinations from time to time.  The bulk of

 5     the patients who were wounded, according to the then transportation

 6     system, were taken to the Clinical Centre which, in a way, became the

 7     routine place where those patients were admitted.  Until the Markale

 8     incident, people came in much fewer numbers to this hospital, to our

 9     hospital.  But then after the Markale incident, people came in greater

10     numbers because our hospital again became trusted.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Karadzic be asked to repeat his

12     question?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm speaking about this part of

14     this statement and the journalist's interpretation in relation to

15     Markale.  I'm speaking about the Ferhadija case.  This is a part that has

16     to do with the Markale building, from that side of it that borders on the

17     Ferhadija Street or the Kralja Ervasa [phoen] Street and Miskina Street.

18     All the other Markale cases are marked as Markale cases that have to do

19     with the market-place incident.  In this context, the events in May, in

20     1992, when people were hit while waiting in the line, that's what that

21     case refers to.  I didn't want to correct the assumptions of the

22     journalist, but actually the reference here was to the Ferhadija massacre

23     and not the Markale Market incident which is close to Markale.

24        Q.   Doctor, that incident is known as the incident in the Street of

25     Vase Miskin or the incident in the bread line.  There are two Markale

Page 6725

 1     incidents, the 5th of February, 1994, and of the 28th of August, 1995, so

 2     you need to make up your mind.

 3        A.   Your Honours, I have made up my mind.  This is the one that has

 4     to do with the bread line in the Ferhadija Street, which is immediately

 5     in front of the front of the building that is referred to as Markale.

 6        Q.   Well, it's not that close and it's not the way you put it, but

 7     never mind.

 8             Now, let us look at page 3 of this document, please.  Can you

 9     please look at this part?  I'm going to read to make it faster.

10             As far as foreign journalist was concerned, the State Hospital

11     was a ceaseless source of stories.  The higher buildings of the central

12     hospital building, at the same time the best position for filming, for

13     example, of the night shelling in Sarajevo.  Because of that, at one time

14     there were four international TV companies located there, and this is how

15     hundreds of minutes of broadcast material were filmed, pages and pages of

16     journalists' texts were written, publications.  But it was hard for

17     anybody to be able to explain the phenomenon of Sarajevo, doctors and

18     other medical staff?

19        A.   Well, I have the privilege of referring to a friend, who was a

20     journalist, who happened to share with me -- van Lynden, who happened to

21     share some of the most dramatic events in my life with me.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

23             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter notes she's not sure whether

24     she interpreted everything, because the speakers were speaking too fast

25     and they were overlapping.

Page 6726

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Since both of you are speaking the same language,

 2     put a pause between questions and answers, please.

 3             And I'm not sure -- the interpreters said they missed the last

 4     part of your question on page 52, in line 6.  I think we can continue.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Doctor, how do you explain that in that situation in which you

 7     practically did not dare to stay and work in the upper floors, that there

 8     were -- in the upper floors of the Military Hospital - I am referring to

 9     it as the Military Hospital because this is how I remember it - there

10     were four international TV companies with their crews and journalists,

11     and this is where they filmed their footage from?  So there were

12     improvised TV studios of major international media companies.  How did

13     this happen?  How was this possible in those circumstances?

14        A.   Your Honours, specifically in this case, with my permission,

15     those crews had the possibility of staying at the top floors with prior

16     signing of an agreement that they were doing that exposing their lives to

17     risk and they were aware of that.  If they had equipment and other things

18     that they used in their work, in that case they would use the northern

19     sections of the upper floors, where -- as they would only go from time to

20     time to the southern parts of the buildings in order to film specific

21     things.  So, physically, there was no studio installed in those upper

22     floors.  These were just crews which, in a way, were broadcasting

23     information by filming certain footage during time when this was

24     possible.  As for the rest of their time, they worked in other sections

25     of those top floors.

Page 6727

 1        Q.   There is an unusual story here, that some boy was skipping on one

 2     foot, and he was holding his other leg in his hands, and that's how he

 3     ran into the hospital.  So perhaps you can comment on this story.

 4             Can we admit this document?

 5             It's very strange for one leg to be blasted off and then to be

 6     hopping into the hospital on the other leg.  That is a little bit

 7     strange.  Your hospital must have seen some very strange things.  It must

 8     have been the source of endless stories, indeed.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Are you referring to a statement which appears on

10     this document?

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  It's a document, it has three

12     pages.  Perhaps the whole one can be admitted.  I just indicated to two

13     passages, and this third one, ridiculous, impossible passage, to be

14     skipping into the hospital on one leg while the other one was spurting

15     blood, probably.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Dr. Nakas, the accused referred to this document as

17     being your statement in "Dani."  Can you tell us what this document is

18     about?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this document is an

20     article written in the "Dani" weekly magazine about the conditions and

21     organisation of work in our hospital.  A large part of this text is the

22     journalist's interpretation, who is retelling the text.

23             I am insulted by the assertion that this is ridiculous that

24     somebody could have been hopping into a hospital while carrying his other

25     leg.  This is something that I saw with my own eyes.  When it says

Page 6728

 1     "carrying his legs," it wasn't a leg that was completely severed, but

 2     that was still partially attached by blood vessels and muscles and still

 3     partially usable.  So I would not like these recollections of mine to be

 4     turned into a joke, in a way, in front of this Tribunal and to be twisted

 5     into erroneous statements before this Tribunal.  That leg is reattached,

 6     that boy is still alive, he's using his leg again, and he spent the rest

 7     of the time after he recovered in Sarajevo while working as an

 8     interpreter for the international community.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And, Doctor, if this were true, I

10     would not be joking, I would be horrified, and I would feel compassion.

11     But it says here that he was carrying his other leg in his hands, in his

12     arms.  I mean, even if it was hanging by a piece of skin, you are a

13     doctor, you know how much this must have been bleeding with a wound where

14     the leg was severed, and it says he's rushing or dashing into the

15     hospital, and the three operators theaters were busy, and all of that.

16     This is not something, Doctor, that I said, but you said it.

17             I would like to have this document admitted, and we will have

18     more of such documents.

19             JUDGE KWON:  You just made a statement, without putting a

20     question to the witness, which is not acceptable, Mr. Karadzic.

21             Do you like to respond to that assertion, Doctor?

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Doctor, did you state this?

24        A.   I am absolutely willing to respond to this, Your Honours, all the

25     more so because I am a doctor myself, too, and I know how much and in

Page 6729

 1     what way a person can bleed, what shock is, what vaso-constriction is.

 2     But what this journalist was talking about here is his journalist's

 3     interpretation of what I said, written in a way that readers can

 4     understand it and comprehend it.  The key information is that I saw the

 5     shell drop with my own eyes, and I watched this man -- young man who was

 6     holding his own limb in his own hands that was hanging off.  He jumped in

 7     and was received and placed into a chair by others who helped him.  So he

 8     didn't skip into the operating room.  So this is not a medical

 9     interpretation of that particular case.  What we are reading here is the

10     interpretation of a particular event by a journalist in a particular kind

11     of way.

12             THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]

13             JUDGE KWON:  Hold it, Mr. Karadzic.

14             We'll mark this document for identification.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D620.

16             JUDGE KWON:  If necessary, put your question again, but I would

17     recommend you to move on, Mr. Karadzic.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let us move on.

19             Can we have 1D02110, can we have it back on our screens?

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Doctor, while we're waiting for that:  We saw your statistics,

22     the statistics of your hospital.  In these statistics, was a distinction

23     made between hospitalisation and mere admission and sending people back

24     home?  You had 450 beds.  How many people were treated as inpatients,

25     hospitalised?

Page 6730

 1        A.   Your Honours, the statistics provided in my statement are based

 2     on the protocol of the Emergency Centre.  It has to do with the total

 3     number of injured persons within a given period of time and their

 4     affiliation with a particular category; namely, civilians or members of

 5     the military.  In other documents, there is also a reference to the

 6     actual number of persons who were kept as inpatients once they were

 7     examined.  In the hospital, there are such statistics.  They can always

 8     be obtained.  And if that is put as a question, an answer, it can be

 9     obtained in that way.

10        Q.   Do you agree, Doctor, that it would have been useful had that

11     distinction been made, rather than create the impression that all of

12     these thousands of injured persons were hospitalised?  Why didn't you

13     make that relevant statistic available if people were actually

14     hospitalised and treated as seriously wounded?

15        A.   Such statistics exist.  However, the investigators did not ask

16     for that particular information when they were speaking to me.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Doctor, how did you register those who were wounded

18     in attacks launched by the BH Army or in mutual conflict?

19        A.   Your Honours, as far as I know, we did not have any cases of

20     treating people who were shot at at the army -- by the army.  However, as

21     for mutual conflicts, we took care of such casualties as well.  They were

22     classified according to their actual category; namely, whether they were

23     civilians or whether they were members of the armed forces.  Our

24     classification, Your Honours, was not based on the circumstances of the

25     wounding and the circumstances of the injury involved; that is to say,

Page 6731

 1     whether the injury was sustained when a person was in an apartment, in

 2     one's own apartment, in a fight, in -- on the front-line.  No health

 3     institution has statistics of that kind, because in that period of time

 4     that would have been a pure loss of time, and it's not relevant for the

 5     outcome of treatment.  It is the condition of the patient that is

 6     relevant as well as the assistance that should be given to the patient.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Your medical documentation, was it kept according to

 8     forensic rules?

 9        A.   Your Honours, as much possible in that period of time.  We

10     observed the Hippocratic Oath, and whenever possible and whenever time

11     allowed us to do so, we practically did follow that principle of

12     reliability and comprehensiveness of documents.  When the burden was far

13     too great, then that belonged to the second category of priorities,

14     because life, itself, was our top priority at the time.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Can we single out from your documentation those cases

16     that were processed by applying regular forensic methodology?

17        A.   That is probably possible.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  We're going to ask the

19     OTP to provide that for us.  Oh, yes.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   You said during your interview that you did not have pathology

22     and that post-mortems were not carried out?

23        A.   As a former military hospital, we had all the equipment for

24     carrying out post-mortems and autopsies.  However, since we did not have

25     a qualified person for dealing with this, we just used that area as a

Page 6732

 1     morgue.  That is where corpses were left.  And from time to time,

 2     Professor Selak [phoen] or other members of his team involved in

 3     histology came from the university.  Autopsies were not conducted in our

 4     hospital.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  I don't have time to ask you about Dr. Selak's fate,

 6     and you probably know about his suffering in Sarajevo.

 7             Could you please look at the circled part here.  This is a State

 8     Security report.  It says here:

 9             "We also know that in the evening hours on the 27th of December,

10     1992, there was a conflict between members of the so-called TO BiH and

11     the HVO.  The conflict occurred in the area between the tobacco factory,

12     the School of Economics and the French Hospital, and it went on

13     intensively for about five hours."

14             Did you take care of the wounded and the dead from this conflict?

15        A.   Before responding to this question, Your Honours, may I say that

16     our distinguished Professor Selak is alive and well.  He is a retiree in

17     Sarajevo, and throughout the war he lived the same kind of life that I

18     did.  So it wasn't through his own free will.  These were circumstances

19     that were imposed on us.

20             As for this highlighted area, we see that this information was

21     provided about a conflict in a particular location between the tobacco

22     factory, the School of Economics, and the French Hospital.  I heard of

23     this incident, but I don't see what the reason is for me to speak about

24     this.

25        Q.   My part of the question does not include the French Hospital, but

Page 6733

 1     it is mentioned in your response.

 2             Doctor, when you refer to certain cases, woundings, et cetera,

 3     you assume that all of that was caused by the Serbs; right?

 4        A.   Absolutely, Your Honours, in our protocols and in our reports,

 5     there was never any marking to that effect, that they were wounded by the

 6     Serbs.  These people were categorised as wounded or injured.  Who had

 7     injured them or wounded them, for ethical reasons, first of all, we don't

 8     keep such records and, secondly, we are not authorised to keep such

 9     records.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That is only to be commended.  But

11     this documentation reached the Court, and that is why I have to deal with

12     it in this way.

13             Can the previous document be admitted into evidence?

14             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we mark it for identification?

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D621, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, you have seven minutes to conclude

18     your cross-examination.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] As I have to say on every such

20     occasion, I will interrupt it, but I will not complete it.  I will simply

21     be stopped.

22             This witness's statement should be rejected in its entirety, if I

23     haven't been able to challenge it.

24             Can the previous document be admitted?

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  It is much too fast for

Page 6734

 1     interpretation, and the number was not registered.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  It was admitted as -- marked D621, being marked for

 3     identification.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Doctor, do you know a person by the name of Vesna Pagon?

 6        A.   Your Honours, I know a person named Vesna Pagon.  She was an

 7     employee in my hospital from May 1992 -- I don't know until which date,

 8     in particular.  She is a pharmacist, and she worked in our hospital

 9     pharmacy.

10        Q.   After the 10th of May, was she transferred to the job of a

11     cleaner?

12        A.   Your Honours, after the 10th of May, we had been decimated.  To

13     send a pharmacist to work as a cleaner, that would mean diminishing one's

14     own function.  Vesna Pagon competently worked as a hospital pharmacist,

15     alongside other hospital pharmacists who were then in the State Hospital

16     of Sarajevo.  She was far from being a cleaner.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I withdraw that, I withdraw that.

18     It was a different case.

19             Could we have 1D2112.  This is an official note concerning an

20     interview with Vesna Pagon.  This other person also worked on other jobs.

21     Well, can we have a look at this.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Doctor, this is an official statement made to the police by

24     Vesna Pagon.  It says:

25             "During the interview, Vesna told us that departures from the

Page 6735

 1     Muslim part of Sarajevo would be reduced to a minimum," and so on and so

 2     forth.

 3             She also said that until the beginning of 1995, a decree will be

 4     passed concerning the ban on family visits.  Further on, it says Vesna

 5     referred to the example of the Sarajevo Hospital, where there are only

 6     four Serb doctors left, and their position in the Muslim part of Sarajevo

 7     is hopeless.

 8             What do you say to that?

 9        A.   Your Honours, what I can say to all of this is that it is a

10     complete lie.

11        Q.   You claim that this person is not telling the truth.  And she

12     says further on that what is noticeable is that many Muslim

13     intellectuals, as well as ordinary citizens, are being converted to

14     Catholicism, because in that way it is easier for them to get Croatian

15     passports.  Is that a lie too?

16        A.   It's an absolute lie created in the head of the mentioned lady:

17     This has nothing to do with the actual situation.  If you really want to

18     know, in that period many people who were atheists turned to religion and

19     to what felt safer; namely, God.  It defies belief that they would

20     convert to a different faith in order to leave Sarajevo.  We stayed in

21     Sarajevo of our own free will, and that is how we survived.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             Can this document be admitted?

24             JUDGE KWON:  Is it not our practice not to admit the statements

25     given by the third person?  Ms. Sutherland?

Page 6736

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The police, given to the police.

 2     He knows the person, the witness knows the person involved.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, this witness may not be the best

 4     witness to put this document through.  If the accused wants to Bar Table

 5     these sorts of documents and show the relevance to each document, then we

 6     may not be opposed to that.  But I don't know that this is the right

 7     witness to put the document through.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  This is a statement given by a third person, and the

 9     current witness does not confirm anything about the document.

10             I'll consult with my colleagues.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll not admit this.  We agree with

13     Ms. Sutherland.

14             Your time is up, Mr. Karadzic.  How many questions do you have

15     further?

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, now I'd like to put three

17     questions.  However, that will not change the position of the Defence

18     that this witness has not been cross-examined.  With all due respect to

19     all the participants involved, way too much was invested into this

20     witness in order for it to be possible to cross-examine him within one

21     hour only.  I would like to put three documents to him now in order to

22     see what it is that we mean.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D2120, please.  1D2120.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 6737

 1        Q.   This is Vesna Pagon's next statement, and around the middle she

 2     says that:

 3             "As a positive personality, I would like to single out

 4     Abdulah Nakas, who is protecting the Serb personnel, who stayed behind,

 5     working in the hospital.  He enjoys a very high reputation as a doctor, a

 6     specialist, but he does not have support because he's not a member of the

 7     SDA Party."

 8             Vesna noted that Nakas is in contact with doctors who are ethnic

 9     Serbs, his former colleagues, who are now in Serb-held territory.  As for

10     his brother, Bakir Nakas, he says that he is the opposite of Abdulah,

11     that he turned into a major fundamentalist, which is why he often clashes

12     with his brother.

13             What do you say to that?

14        A.   Your Honours, once again I can say that absolutely -- that this

15     is an absolutely nebulous thing created by Ms. or Mrs. Vesna Pagon.  The

16     relations between myself and my brother were personal, and because of our

17     professional relationship we managed to keep the hospital going

18     throughout the war and up to the present day.

19             Saying that I'm a fundamentalist is totally unbelievable and

20     amazing.  As far as religion is concerned, I have always declared myself

21     as an atheist.  Saying that I was a member of the SDA or that Abdulah,

22     who is not a member of the SDA, that is not true, either, because Abdulah

23     was a member of the SDA.  Later on, he even held a high position.  As a

24     matter of fact, when there were elections for the president of the SDA

25     when the late Alija Izetbegovic was leaving that position, he was -- he

Page 6738

 1     ran against the current president, Sulejman Tihic.  So he was not elected

 2     president at that point in time, but as a member of the SDA he was also a

 3     Member of Parliament of our state.  That was obviously his lifelong

 4     commitment.  And now this prefix is being assigned to me, and I don't

 5     know why I deserve that.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Are you trying to say that what she says about the

 7     late Abdulah is not true either, that this is not true, that he's on good

 8     terms with the Serbs, that he's in contact with them, and during the

 9     interview we established that he was in Pale before the 10th of May and

10     that I had been informed that he was there, although I had not met up

11     with him?

12        A.   Your Honours, my brother was mobilised in the month of April, and

13     he was sent to the then new military hospital at Sokolac.  That is to say

14     that he did not go there of his own free will, but that was the result of

15     the will of the organs of the Yugoslav People's Army.  He was and

16     remained on good terms with the entire population of Bosnia and

17     Herzegovina, like myself, just like Dr. Abdulah Nakas contacted

18     colleagues from the other side, under quotation marks, I had regular

19     contacts with Dr. Tomislav Tausan, who was the head of the

20     Military Hospital until then, after he left, together with the other

21     doctors in that hospital.  That means that by remaining on one or the

22     other side, our ties were not severed at all if we had to deal with

23     normal human communications:  To this day, all colleagues who went to

24     university with me, Dr. Milan Pejic, Zdrale, all of those who were war

25     doctors and heads of hospitals, they were my friends and we communicated

Page 6739

 1     on a daily basis.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  But we have to establish one thing.  Is she lying?

 3     Is she lying in your case and in the case of Abdulah, or in the case of

 4     Dr. Abdulah, she is characterising him correctly and she's characterising

 5     you erroneously?

 6        A.   The part of the statement speaking about the relationship of

 7     Abdulah Nakas with Serbs is correct.  The rest of that statement, the

 8     allegations are false.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I assume that this will not be

10     admitted either, but I personally think it could be admitted because it's

11     a statement given to a state organ.  If not, then I have to find a

12     different way.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Even if it is a statement given to the OTP of this

14     Tribunal, we'll not admit this.  Call your witness to confirm that

15     content of the statement.

16             Move on to your next topic.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Do you know who Nada Sehovac is?

19        A.   Your Honours, perhaps I might have heard that first and last name

20     somewhere.  But right now, I really cannot recall it.

21        Q.   Thank you.  We have her statement here.  Since she's sick, she

22     provided a notarised statement.  The notary is Rama Atajic.  Rama is a

23     Muslim, isn't she?  Is that correct?

24        A.   Rama Atajic is most probably a Bosniak.

25        Q.   We have her statement, in which she explains and talks about her

Page 6740

 1     experience in the Military Hospital, that she lived in Zadrugina, which

 2     is Omera Stupca Street now, and she tells all that happened to her after

 3     the Military Hospital was taken over.  There is a statement here about

 4     the damage inflicted to the Military Hospital by the Green Berets, and

 5     the fire -- they fired at the hospital before the 10th of May.  After the

 6     10th of May, she was transferred to work as a cleaner.  Before then, she

 7     was working as a lab technician, where she was in charge of washing lab

 8     equipment.

 9             Do you recall transferring her to a lower-ranking post/job?

10        A.   Your Honours, I said that I really cannot recollect the first and

11     last name.  However, according to our scale of tasks, a person who washes

12     lab dishes can be assigned to duties as a cleaner.  It's work of the same

13     rank.  And it's an unskilled position, and there is no difference between

14     the two particular types of job.  It's possible that at that particular

15     moment, we needed more cleaners, so it was felt that somebody could be

16     assigned to that type of job.  This had nothing to do with any kind of

17     ethnic criteria.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Dr. Nakas.

19             Yes, Ms. Sutherland, did you have something?

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I was simply going to say what was the accused's

21     question.  And the moment I rose, he asked a question.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Allow me to read one sentence from

23     this statement:

24             "The Green Berets surrounded the Military Hospital and opened

25     fire at it until the Military Hospital was taken over by the B and H

Page 6741

 1     authorities."

 2             This means that for about a month since the official start of the

 3     war, there was daily major damage inflicted to the building by the

 4     Green Berets, and there is -- not the Serbian Army.  There would be no

 5     logic to the Serbs inflicting damage to a building where there was JNA

 6     personnel and other staff who were Serbs.

 7             And then it goes on to talk about this 2nd of May interception,

 8     when they went to get the wounded by the JNA hall.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  This is simply a waste of time.  You just put your

10     question to the witness.  You don't have to read out the third party's

11     statement.  Just put your question and then you can bring your witness

12     during the Defence case.

13             What is your question?

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Doctor, you said that your brothers and others informed you about

16     what happened to the Military Hospital while you were away.  Did the

17     Green Beret surround the Military Hospital, fire at it?  And you said in

18     your statement that there was some sort of presence there in order to

19     incite patriotism?

20        A.   Your Honours, definitely the hospital -- the Military Hospital

21     was not surrounded or encircled by any forces, particularly -- well, I

22     see that the witness stated that these were the Green Berets, and the

23     extent and the form of that action, but I stand by my previous statement

24     that these were local forces who were, in a way, located there, but not

25     with any kind of objective of surrounding or in any way destroying the

Page 6742

 1     then Military Hospital.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  She says that upon instructions of their bosses, she

 3     cleaned the 11th and the 12th floors after the take-over, after the

 4     security of the Military Hospital left, and that she did not find --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, your last question.  Move on to your

 6     last document.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at 1D942.

 8             Now, I believe that the Trial Chamber will regret not allowing

 9     this witness to stay longer, because this is insufficient.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Sir, Doctor, this is a document.  It's a bulletin by the

12     headquarters of the Supreme Command of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina

13     of the 24th of October, 1993.

14             Can we look at the third page of this document.

15             This box text says:

16             "Pursuant to information of the Sarajevo CSB, on the 23rd of

17     October, 1993, at the crossroads in front of the State Hospital, a group

18     of armed fighters of the 10th Mountain Brigade was deployed.  Later

19     checks by police patrol confirm this information.

20             "According to unchecked information, under the command of

21     Musan Topalovic, Caco, they intended to intercept one cistern of

22     UNPROFOR.  Allegedly, he decided on this act because the UNPROFOR were

23     going to deliver fuel oil in return for the favour of using the water

24     source at Pivara."

25             Did you know that there were such brigades in the immediate

Page 6743

 1     vicinity?

 2        A.   No.  Your Honours, this kind of information regarding the

 3     immediate vicinity of the State Hospital and other information relating

 4     to this is something that I'm not aware of.

 5        Q.   Do you question the veracity of the Main Staff of the

 6     Supreme Command?

 7        A.   No, I'm not doubting the credibility of that source, but I do

 8     dispute the information that you referred to here, that such information

 9     could have been accessible to me.  I really do not recollect such an

10     event, and I have no way of knowing whether this was true or not.

11        Q.   And you were not aware of these military targets and these events

12     regarding the military around the Military Hospital?

13        A.   Your Honours, there were no events or military targets around the

14     hospital that would jeopardise its integrity or its function.  So what

15     was happening in mutual communication and relations between the forces of

16     the Bosnia-Herzegovina members and some members of the UNPROFOR or police

17     is something that was not relevant, as far as I was concerned.  What was

18     of relevance to me was the function and the operation of the hospital.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at the next document, a

20     statement by Tomislav Tausan, who was the previous head of the hospital.

21     Dr. Nakas knew him personally, and he referred to him also in today's

22     testimony.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  We'll deal with this document first.

24             This is a bulletin written by whom?

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at the first page for

Page 6744

 1     the Trial Chamber.  This is the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

 2     Supreme Command Staff of the Armed Forces, Security Administration.  This

 3     is the Muslim Army or the army of that part of Bosnia that Dr. Nakas

 4     recognises.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Do you object to the admission of this document,

 6     Ms. Sutherland?

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Again, Your Honour, this witness is not the

 9     correct witness to be putting this document through.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With all due respect to

11     Ms. Sutherland, we have no other better witness to speak about what is

12     going on in front of the doors of his hospital, and this is a report by

13     his army about events.  Dr. Nakas speaks about a broad range of questions

14     and does not know that there were military operations going on in front

15     of his doors.

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honours, this -- not this witness -- the

17     Defence can put the document in another way.  They can Bar Table the

18     document, they can --

19             JUDGE KWON:  But I take it you do not object to the authenticity

20     of this document.

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  No, Your Honour.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honours, sorry.  If I can add, perhaps the

25     witness has contextualised the document enough for it to be admitted.

Page 6745

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Ms. Sutherland.

 3             On that basis, we'll admit this.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D622, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Your last question, Mr. Karadzic.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please look at document

 7     1D2116.  1D2116.  This is a report on the interview of a witness,

 8     Tomislav Tausan.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Is this Tausan the colonel who was before you at the same post?

11        A.   Yes, I think so.  It would appear to be that on the basis of the

12     name and the father's name.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, let's look at page 3.  I

14     mean, all the pages are of interest to us, but because of speed we need

15     to just look at page 3.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Can we look at this paragraph:

18             "There was constant sniper fire at the hospital from the

19     Magribija Mosque, where the Muslims warehoused infantry weapons that were

20     illegally shipped to Sarajevo.  I saw when the weapons were brought in on

21     trucks of license plates from Gorazde and then taken out of the mosque by

22     other vehicles and distributed to Muslims.  One of the more fierce

23     attacks from this mosque on the Military Hospital occurred on the 26th of

24     April, 1992.  However, fortunately, there were no casualties.  During the

25     one of the more fierce attacks on the Military Hospital on the 3rd of

Page 6746

 1     May, 1992, patients were wounded," and so on and so forth.

 2             Can we look at the next page of the document, actually two pages

 3     after?  Can we now look at page 5?

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Again, you don't have to read out all these

 5     sentences.  Just put your question.

 6             Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I was going to state the same

 8     thing.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  What is your question?

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   My question, Doctor, is:  Was the Magribija Mosque used for

12     military purposes, the way that Dr. Tausan described it?

13        A.   Your Honours, based on what I know about the Magribija Mosque is

14     that it is a religious facility.  Absolutely never was it used, nor do I

15     have information that it was used, as a military facility or as a depot,

16     as it is stated in this statement.  As far as I know, my predecessor,

17     Colonel Tomislav Tausan, did not leave the hospital, and all in all, I

18     don't know from which angle and from where he could have observed trucks

19     of such and such a license plate unloading these weapons and that these

20     weapons were being distributed to Muslims.  I don't see that.  Even

21     though I respect him as a trusted colleague, I really cannot agree with

22     his statement.

23        Q.   But you agree that the Magribija Street has an exit to that part

24     of the hospital front?

25        A.   Yes, but you cannot see it from that part of the street.

Page 6747

 1        Q.   All right.  You could see Hresa from the hospital, but he could

 2     see it right in front of his nose.  All right.

 3             Well, let us show you one more thing --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  That's it, Mr. Karadzic.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just -- just this paragraph, just

 6     this paragraph where the Unis building is mentioned.

 7             The doctor says that from the roof of the Unis building, which

 8     the doctor marked, there was firing at the Dentistry Clinic, the

 9     Gynaecology Clinic and other facilities.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Is this in dispute, Doctor?

12        A.   Your Honours, when I said that there were remains of infantry

13     weapons on the roof of the building, I was not denying that the hospital

14     was struck by infantry weapons.  I don't know though it was hit in the

15     particular way that this witness talks about from specific positions

16     around the hospital, because I wasn't in the hospital at the time, so

17     this is something that I cannot confirm, this piece of information.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, one more thing.

19             The Defence did not have time to deal with medical documents that

20     were admitted through Dr. Nakas, but it is the position of the Defence

21     that that documentation is not of use for legal matters because it was

22     not kept that way.  There were no investigations.  It wasn't kept

23     according to the forensic principles and techniques.  There is no

24     indication of where these people were wounded, who was wounded in

25     conflicts, and so on and so forth.

Page 6748

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Again, it is your statement.  If there are some

 2     parts which you couldn't cover, it's totally as a result of your

 3     inefficient cross-examination.

 4             Ms. Sutherland, do you have some questions for your

 5     re-examination?

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  That being the case, we have to break.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted,

 9     please, the previous one?

10             JUDGE KWON:  No.  It is a statement of a third person with which

11     the witness hasn't agreed at all.

12             We'll break for half an hour -- 25 minutes, and we'll resume at

13     10 to 1.00.

14                           --- Recess taken at 12.26 p.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 12.53 p.m.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I've changed places for the

18     computer.

19                           Re-examination by Ms. Sutherland:

20        Q.   Dr. Nakas, at page 50 of today's transcript, Mr. Karadzic asked

21     you to draw on a photograph, which is Exhibit D619, the markings where

22     the 200 projectiles hit the hospital, and you marked a number of areas

23     where some of the shells had hit.

24             Can I just have Exhibit P01524, the witness's amalgamated

25     statement.  And if we could --

Page 6749

 1             You can see this photograph, Dr. Nakas, the one you drew on

 2     earlier today, which has -- the photograph shows the Red Cross flag.  Do

 3     you see that?

 4        A.   Yes.  Yes, Your Honours, I can see that.

 5        Q.   Can I take you to paragraph 22 of your statement.

 6             Or in paragraph 23, you say:

 7             "Between 1992 and 1995, the hospital was hit with over 200

 8     projectiles."

 9             In paragraph 22, you say that the flag remained in place from May

10     to September 1992, when the hospital removed it because of its condition.

11     And so when Mr. Karadzic asked you to show the marks of where the 200

12     projectiles hit, am I correct in saying that that is not possible because

13     of what you've stated in your statement in paragraph 22?

14        A.   Your Honours, that is correct, because that photograph is from

15     the period from the 10th of May up until September 1992, which means that

16     the photograph reflects what was happening in the period from May until

17     September 1992.  Everything else that happened that involved other

18     projectiles cannot be seen on that photograph.  Therefore, that

19     photograph is a reflection of the situation in the summer of 1992, at the

20     very outset when the hospital was taken as a target of the Army of

21     Republika Srpska.

22        Q.   Yes.  And that photograph depicts one part of the hospital?

23        A.   Absolutely, it depicts only one part of the hospital, the central

24     part; therefore, other parts of the hospital that cannot be seen in this

25     photograph.

Page 6750

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you.  I have no further questions.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Ms. Sutherland.

 3                           Questioned by the Court:

 4             JUDGE KWON:  In that paragraph, Dr. Nakas, you said between 1992

 5     and 1995, the hospital was hit by over 200 projectiles.  And also in

 6     para 34, two pages further, you said:

 7             "The worst period of targeting on the hospital was from 13 to 16

 8     May 1992 ...:

 9             "And:

10             "The hospital was hit by about 40 shells of various kinds ..."

11             So my question is how you were able to remember those numbers,

12     200 and 40.  Did you keep a diary or did you count the number of shells?

13        A.   Your Honour, in that period of time we were counting the shells

14     and recording them, and we kept certain diaries of the effects.  At

15     first, we reported these occurrences to the police and to UNPROFOR.

16     Sometimes they would come to the scene.  However, later on, in spite of

17     reports, no one came to the actual site, so, in a way, you could only

18     record the damage sustained and try to do away with some of the

19     consequences.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Do you think we can find those diaries made at the

21     time?

22        A.   It is absolutely impossible to find them in a comprehensive form.

23     These were only parts that were kept in certain daily reports and that

24     were marked, but there is no single diary.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Dr. Nakas.

Page 6751

 1             That concludes your testimony at the Tribunal.  I thank you, on

 2     behalf of the Tribunal, for coming to the Tribunal to give it.  Now you

 3     are free to go.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 5                           [The witness withdrew]

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Ms. Sutherland.

 7             Do you have something?

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I would just like to note that the

 9     accused said that he'd only had one hour to cross-examine this witness.

10     I noted that he was given two hours.

11             And I would also ask leave to be excused.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE KWON:  So the next witness is Ms. Mulaosmanovic-Cehajic?

13             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  That's correct, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Let's bring in the witness.

15                           [The witness entered court]

16             JUDGE KWON:  Good afternoon, Madam.

17             THE WITNESS:  Good afternoon.

18             JUDGE KWON:  If you could take the solemn declaration, please.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

20     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

21                           WITNESS:  ALMA MULAOSMANOVIC-CEHAJIC

22                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

23             JUDGE KWON:  Please be seated.

24             Yes, Madam Uertz-Retzlaff.

25             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.

Page 6752

 1                           Examination by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

 2        Q.   Good afternoon, Ms. Mulaosmanovic.

 3        A.   Good afternoon.

 4        Q.   Please state your full name.

 5        A.   Alma Mulaosmanovic.

 6        Q.   Can you also give us your maiden name, because this is sometimes

 7     mentioned in papers?

 8        A.   Alma Cehajic.

 9        Q.   Ms. Mulaosmanovic, you provided several statements to the Office

10     of the Prosecutor, and you also testified before this Tribunal on two

11     occasions.  Is that all correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   You testified in the trial against Dragomir Milosevic on the 6th

14     of February, 2007; is that correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Have you had an opportunity to review this testimony?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Can you affirm that the testimony accurately reflects the

19     evidence you provided to the Tribunal in 2007?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Ms. Mulaosmanovic, would you provide that same evidence to the

22     Court if questioned on the same matters here today?

23        A.   Yes.

24             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I would like to tender this

25     testimony as 65 ter 90110 for admission under Rule 92 ter.

Page 6753

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, that will be admitted as

 3     Exhibit P1551.

 4             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  With the Court's permission, I would now

 5     read a brief summary of the witness evidence as admitted.

 6             Ms. Mulaosmanovic was 18 years old and a student during the

 7     events.  On 27 February 1995, she was on a tram in Sarajevo that was

 8     moving from Bascarsija towards Cengic Vila.  The tram was filled with

 9     civilian passengers.  As the tram passed an open area, an intersection,

10     and while the witness was facing the Marsal Tito Barracks, she heard

11     firing from behind her, and then several shots impacted the tram.  Those

12     within the tram tried to lie on the floor to avoid being hit, but the

13     tram was too crowded and so passengers, including the witness, could only

14     crouch.  The witness was shot and wounded in her left arm.  The witness

15     realised that the shooting came from behind her, and concluded that the

16     shooting came from the direction of Grbavica and Vraca, areas that were

17     controlled by the Army of Republika Srpska.

18             Ms. Mulaosmanovic was taken for treatment to a first aid station.

19     She noticed that two elderly persons were also taken there.

20     Ms. Mulaosmanovic felt insecure when she had to move around, but she also

21     felt unsafe when she was at home.  She would always feel to be a target

22     and that there was no safe place in Sarajevo.  She lived in a constant

23     state of fear.

24             Your Honour, this concludes the summary, and I would like now to

25     address a few matters with the witness here in person.

Page 6754

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please.

 2             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

 3        Q.   Ms. Mulaosmanovic, during your previous testimony you marked

 4     quite a number of maps and photos.  Do you recall that?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   I would like to clarify one matter on one photo and one map.

 7             I would ask that Exhibit 65 ter 10199 be brought up onto the

 8     screen, please.

 9             And as it is coming up:  It is a photo with some markings on it,

10     the red markings and blue markings.

11             Can we have that -- yes, thank you.

12             Did you make these markings during your previous testimony?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   What do the red markings indicate, if you start with the upper

15     ones with the straight line?

16        A.   The straight red line is the direction in which the tram was

17     moving, the tram that I was on when this event took place, the place

18     where the shooting started, approximately, up until the place where the

19     tram stopped, approximately.

20        Q.   And the red circle that you made around buildings there, what

21     would that indicate?

22        A.   That indicates approximately the place that I thought the

23     shooting was coming from.

24        Q.   And these four high buildings, what are they?

25        A.   These are well-known places from where citizens were being fired

Page 6755

 1     at, the citizens of Sarajevo.  I didn't know how to put a circle around

 2     them, because they belonged to this circle.  These buildings belonged to

 3     that circle.

 4        Q.   This area was controlled by which forces?

 5        A.   The Serb Army.

 6        Q.   And on the right side, on the very right side, we see blue

 7     markings.  Can you tell us what this indicates?

 8        A.   Vrbanja Most.

 9             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you.

10             Your Honour, I request the admission of this exhibit.  It is a

11     part of the 92 ter package.  But as we discussed it now, I would like --

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  It will be admitted as Exhibit P1552.

13             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I would then ask that Exhibit 65 ter 10197

14     be brought up on the screen, please.  And it is a map, as we will see,

15     with some markings in red on it.

16        Q.   Ms. Mulaosmanovic, did you make the red marks in there?  And if

17     so, what do they show?

18        A.   The upper one following the yellow line also shows the direction

19     which the tram was moving from one point to another, from the place where

20     the gun-fire started, approximately, up until the place where the tram

21     stopped.  The circle is the place in Grbavica from where I think the

22     firing came.

23        Q.   And just one more question.  You mentioned the Vraca [sic] Bridge

24     when we spoke about the photo.  Where would that be on this map?

25        A.   I mentioned the Bridge of Vrbanja, Vrbanja Most.  Can I mark it

Page 6756

 1     with this pen?

 2             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, please.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  We'll use the blue colour.

 4             THE WITNESS:  It's here.

 5             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you much.

 6             Your Honour, I request the admission of this exhibit.  This is

 7     also part of the package, but --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we put the date of today?  It's the 14th of

 9     September, 2010.  Could you put the date.

10             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

11             JUDGE KWON:  And your signature.

12             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

13             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  That will be admitted as Exhibit P1553.

14             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

15        Q.   Ms. Mulaosmanovic, in your evidence, you mostly described the

16     event on the 27th of February, 1995, and the fear you experienced.  Were

17     you living in Sarajevo throughout the war?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   How were the living conditions in the period from -- throughout

20     the war?

21        A.   They were very difficult, primarily for reasons of safety and

22     security, also due to the lack of water, electricity, everything else

23     that was needed; needed for a normal life, that is.  And psychologically,

24     a depression was felt because no one knew how long this would last.

25     Once, a politician said sometime in 1992 that this might go on for six

Page 6757

 1     months, and it seemed like eternity to us at the time.

 2        Q.   Did you lose any family member or friends through shelling or

 3     sniping?

 4        A.   In 1992, my uncle was killed at Dobrinja.  There was no

 5     electricity or gas, and that is why he was baking bread in front of the

 6     building where they lived, like other people did.  A shell fell.  He got

 7     killed, and his son, who was 12 at the time, I think, was wounded.  Then

 8     also a girlfriend of mine was killed in the summer of 1995 on her very

 9     own balcony as she was cooking lunch.  She had a fire on the balcony.

10     Then the sister of schoolmate of mine was killed.  She was perhaps 12 as

11     well.  One day, we were in school, and the teacher called out the name of

12     Neredna Golovcanin [phoen].  And the other student said that he got

13     killed, that he was standing at a crossroads and was hit and killed, and

14     that he would no longer be attending school.

15        Q.   What effect, if any, had this fate of your relatives or friends

16     and schoolmates have on you?

17        A.   Well, it was very hard.  It could have been any citizen, myself

18     included.  Also, my feelings for these people and for their nearest and

19     dearest who had lost family members, these are strong emotions.

20             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, this concludes the

21     examination-in-chief, and I would now request some of the associated

22     exhibits referred to in the tendered testimony to be admitted into

23     evidence.

24             In the final table that was provided to you in a filing on the

25     10th of September, it is clearly indicated which to be tendered and which

Page 6758

 1     not to be tendered.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  The total number of remaining associated exhibits

 3     will be three, to be clear?

 4             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I think so, Your Honour.  Let me just

 5     double-check.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  65 ter 10199 and 10200 and 09733.

 7             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I actually have -- yes, that's correct, yes.

 8     Thank you.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Why don't we give them numbers right now.

10             10199 will be Exhibit -- why don't you give numbers.

11     Exhibit P1554.  10200 will be Exhibit --

12                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that's already admitted.  So the remaining is

14     10198 will be -- microphone, microphone.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  10198 will be Exhibit P1554, 10200 will be

16     Exhibit P1555, and 09733 will be Exhibit P1556.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

18             Now, Mr. Karadzic, your turn to cross-examine this witness.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Ms. Mulaosmanovic.

22        A.   Good afternoon.

23        Q.   During the war, you lived in the Street of Branka Blazek at

24     Malta?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 6759

 1        Q.   And which part of that street?  There is Marko Marulic and

 2     there's Branka Blazek.  We'll show that on the map later.  Can you tell

 3     us where your apartment was?

 4        A.   It was closer to Marko Marulic.

 5        Q.   And closer to the hill, right, closer to the Drinska Street?  You

 6     know where Drinska Street is, don't you?

 7        A.   I do.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  You said that it was cloudy.  What was the

 9     temperature on that day, the 27th of February, 1995?  Was it cold

10     outside?

11        A.   It was quite cold.  I wore my winter jacket.

12        Q.   How come you were wearing Plimsolls on your feet?

13        A.   There were no precipitations that day.  These were leather

14     Plimsolls.  It was dry.

15        Q.   You entered the tram at the cathedral.  How many people were

16     there in the tram, all in all?  In one statement, you said that it was

17     quite crowded?

18        A.   The tram was quite full, but in the morning when it would go into

19     the town, it would be very, very crowded.  Now, it was fairly crowded.

20        Q.   Thank you.  You said in one place that there were no soldiers in

21     the tram; is that correct?

22        A.   I don't remember seeing any, no.

23        Q.   And the tram driver said that right next to you, there was a

24     uniformed soldier of the B and H Army standing next to you?

25        A.   You mean next to the driver?

Page 6760

 1        Q.   Yes, the tram driver did see a soldier in the tram when you were

 2     wounded.

 3        A.   The driver is at the front of the tram, and I was by the third

 4     door, in the third -- in the last section of the tram.

 5        Q.   All right.  So you were standing on the right-hand side of the

 6     tram?  The doors are on the right-hand side; is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes, next to the door.

 8        Q.   Between you and the left wall, the left side of the tram, there

 9     were many people; is that correct?

10        A.   There were people behind my back, yes.

11        Q.   Behind you, next to you, and in front of you.  Thus, there were

12     people on the left side of the tram; is that correct?

13        A.   This was behind my back.  Like I said, the tram was fairly full.

14     It wasn't overcrowded, packed.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Was an investigation conducted in Sarajevo about

16     this?  Did you provide a statement?  Did the police conduct an

17     investigation?

18        A.   I was asked for -- to go to the police for an interview, where I

19     provided a statement.  I don't know about the investigation, because I

20     left the scene immediately.

21        Q.   You gave a statement to the Bosnian police; is that correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Did you bring that statement?  Did you hand it over to the

24     Prosecution?

25        A.   The OTP showed me that statement.

Page 6761

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We would be happy if they showed it

 2     to us as well.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   How did you determine that the fires were --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 6             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I'm surprised about this

 7     remark, because this is actually an exhibit.  He received that statement.

 8     It's a statement of the 14th of April, 1995.  It is given by the witness

 9     and taken by an investigator.  I don't know what this remark now means.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Can we know which investigator from the OTP?

12        A.   The policeman was called Goran Kulenovic.

13        Q.   I didn't ask about the OTP investigator.  I said which

14     investigator it was, and was that the entire investigation?  Was there

15     any kind of investigation in Sarajevo about this?

16        A.   I guess there were people in charge of that investigation.  I

17     really don't know that.

18        Q.   And how did you determine that the fire came from Grbavica or

19     from Vrace, as you said?  Would you be able to decide which one was it,

20     Grbavica or Vrace?  Grbavica or Vrace?

21        A.   I personally sensed that the firing was not that close, because

22     the sound of it would have been louder.  As for that, I had and I still

23     have a scar of the entry-and-exit wound, and that is how I concluded that

24     it came from the rear, from that direction.

25        Q.   At the point in time when you were hit, what position were you

Page 6762

 1     in, your body, and especially the arm that was struck?

 2        A.   I was squatting, and I was holding my hands like

 3     this [indicates].  I was holding an umbrella in one hand, and I was in a

 4     kind of squatting position.  It's almost like a ski position.

 5        Q.   All right.  And between the place where the tram entered -- the

 6     bullet entered the tram and yourself, was there anybody standing in

 7     between?

 8        A.   I don't know.  Most of the people dropped down, they lay down on

 9     the floor, trying to shield themselves somehow.

10        Q.   Can you please tell us where the entry wound is and where the

11     exit wound is on your arm?

12        A.   This is where the entry wound is [indicates], and this is where

13     the exit wound is [indicating].

14        Q.   They're at the same height, at the same level, are they?

15        A.   Well, it depends how you look at it.  Perhaps the exit wound is a

16     little bit lower.  That was how the hand -- the position of the hand was.

17        Q.   You said in one place that it must have been fire from the Serb

18     territory, because had the Bosnian-Herzegovinian Army been firing, you

19     would have heard the shots; is that correct?

20        A.   I think that they would have been louder.

21        Q.   The tram was moving.  Does the tram produce a noise?

22        A.   Of course.

23        Q.   And so you first heard the shots, and then the bullets struck.

24     So the initial bullets did not strike the tram, according to what you

25     said, and then some bullets did hit the tram?

Page 6763

 1        A.   It seems to me that it was the same sound, that it was like a

 2     test burst of fire, and then the second burst of fire came which actually

 3     struck the tram.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  So that was a burst of fire.  How many shots are

 5     there in a burst of fire, approximately?

 6        A.   I really don't know.  I couldn't tell.  This is a number of

 7     bullets one right after another in a sequence.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  And you estimated or you were told that this was a

 9     Serbian sniper; is that correct?

10        A.   I don't understand weapons much.  I don't know if it was a sniper

11     or not.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] For the other participants, this is

13     on the list of sniper incidents, F -- F15 on the list of sniper

14     incidents, F15.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   What time was it when this happened?

17        A.   It was about noon.  I don't know the exact time.  I didn't have a

18     watch with me.

19        Q.   What was the speed of the tram, if you remember?

20        A.   Well, I would say it was the usual, but I really couldn't tell.

21        Q.   It's about 40 kilometres per hour?

22        A.   I really don't know.  It's possible.

23        Q.   Do you know what -- well, perhaps it would be better for us to

24     help you to help us to understand.

25             Can we look at P1553, 1553 which was just admitted.

Page 6764

 1             Yes.  We could have done without the signature, because this is

 2     going to be a Defence exhibit, but it can stay.  Can we look at the basic

 3     document.  This is fine, too.

 4             Ms. Mulaosmanovic, I would like to ask you to mark with a blue

 5     arrow the place of impact, and another one indicating the place where the

 6     tram stopped.

 7             Well, this is better.  This new document is better.

 8             Can you indicate with a blue arrow the place of impact, and with

 9     the second arrow the place where the tram stopped?  You said it stopped

10     in front of the police station; is that correct?

11        A.   Approximately in this part where the turning is.  Actually, there

12     are two police buildings there.

13        Q.   If you would place an upright blue arrow in the place where the

14     bullet impacted on you.

15        A.   I really don't know at what point in time this happened.  I was

16     crouching, you understand.  I wasn't looking through the window.  I can't

17     tell you where the tram exactly was.  I'm talking about this particular

18     interval.  And when that happens, time becomes relative, so each one of

19     those intervals seems much longer.

20        Q.   Can you please tell us, what is between the Serbian positions and

21     these tram tracks, this place where this happened?

22        A.   The river is marked in blue, and that's where the line of

23     separation was.  Above the river to the north, there were different

24     prefabricated buildings.  The museums were here, there was a police

25     station, and there were some knocked-down buildings.  I don't really

Page 6765

 1     remember.  The town has changed since then.

 2        Q.   Could you indicate these two "M" buildings?  One of them is the

 3     Museum of the Revolution, and then there's the other one.

 4        A.   Should I mark them with an arrow?

 5        Q.   Yes, you can mark them with an arrow and a number.

 6        A.   [Marks]

 7        Q.   There is museum number 1 and then there is museum number 2.

 8        A.   It's a little bit difficult to be precise.

 9        Q.   This is the Museum of the Revolution; is that correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Do you see where the Holiday Inn Hotel is?

12        A.   Just one moment, please.  I don't see it.  It's a little bit

13     difficult on the map.  I can see the church, but I can't really tell what

14     the other buildings are.

15        Q.   All right.  And we saw where the Dobrinja Bridge is.  All right,

16     you can sign this and put the date on this document, you can initial it,

17     and then we can switch to the photograph, because obviously this will not

18     get us too far.

19        A.   Should I put my signature on it and the date?

20        Q.   Yes, that's right, your initials, your signature, and the date.

21        A.   [Marks]

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             Can this document be admitted as a Defence exhibit, and then can

24     we look at --

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

Page 6766

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D623.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             Can we now look at photograph number 6 from the Sarajevo-specific

 4     binder, and can we get definite 65 ter numbers, please?  I will need some

 5     help with that.

 6             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, this is 65 ter 21215.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8        Q.   I would like to ask you kindly, Ms. Mulaosmanovic, to mark the

 9     buildings you recognise here, starting from the bridge on the Vrbanja,

10     then the residential buildings, the government buildings, the faculty

11     buildings, the museum.  One of them you cannot see.  Then you have the

12     Technical School and the Holiday Inn on the other side of the tram

13     tracks; is that right?

14        A.   Well, let me start from the right.  With the bridge over the

15     Vrbanja.  I'm putting a "V" there [marks].

16        Q.   Do you agree that this building between the Vrbanja Bridge and

17     the Assembly, a building of several floors; is that correct?

18        A.   Yes.  I think if you are thinking of this building here, I think

19     it has four floors.

20        Q.   All right, thank you.  Could you now indicate with number 2 and

21     number 3 the Assembly building and the Government building?

22        A.   The Assembly [marks].

23        Q.   Can you now mark the Faculty of Philosophy?

24        A.   I think that's here.  This is a 4 [marks].

25        Q.   The Land Museum, the two buildings of that museum.

Page 6767

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2        Q.   And now can you mark the railway tracks?  This is the eastern

 3     corner of the Marsal Tito Barracks.  That's where the Marsal Tito

 4     Barracks were; is that correct?

 5        A.   Yes, that's where the building began, yes.

 6        Q.   And that is where the interval started that you are referring to,

 7     the interval of the incident; is that right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Could you please mark that spot with a 6?

10        A.   It's a little bit dark.  I don't know if you will be able to see

11     it [marks].  Yes, you will.

12        Q.   And can you please mark the railway line with a horizontal line?

13        A.   [Marks]

14        Q.   Thank you.  Can you mark that line with a number 7?

15        A.   [Marks]

16        Q.   Do you know -- you said, Ms. Mulaosmanovic, that the fire came

17     from behind you.  Do you know who -- which military formation was

18     occupying buildings 2, 3, 4 and 5?

19        A.   The tram had already passed those buildings.  That's where the

20     Bosnian Army was.  These buildings were on the side of the Bosnian Army.

21     I don't know exactly where their positions were.

22        Q.   All right.  So the tram had passed that place, but the firing

23     took place behind you; is that what you said?

24        A.   Yes, from the back.  But this area that we had marked with a V,

25     2, 3, 4, 5, we had already passed that area.

Page 6768

 1        Q.   All right, thank you.  I'll understand if you don't know, but I'm

 2     going to ask you:  Do you know that sniper fire is not fired in bursts?

 3        A.   I don't know that.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that an automatic rifle that can fire

 5     bursts of fire has a shorter range than a classical sniper?

 6        A.   No, I don't know that.

 7        Q.   Do you agree, then, that that fire, so it's not classical sniper

 8     fire, but this kind of burst of gun-fire, could have come from one of

 9     these buildings that was held by the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

10        A.   I do not agree.  If I were already at number 7 and had gun-fire

11     come from my right side, I was wounded in my left arm, so the bullet

12     would have to swerve in order to hit me.

13        Q.   However, you said that gun-fire was coming from behind you, from

14     behind your back?

15        A.   Yes, but from the back of number 7 and then towards the left, not

16     to the right.

17        Q.   You were not facing backwards in the tram?

18        A.   Yes, but we had already passed number 5, the Technical School, so

19     you cannot see the Museum of the Revolution between the two.  So at this

20     crossroads where number 6 is, the gun-fire had already started.  We had

21     passed the rest by then.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that while you were squatting, and the

23     entry/exit wound is more or less on the same line, the gun-fire had to

24     come horizontally?

25        A.   I don't know.  I'm not an expert.

Page 6769

 1        Q.   Could I ask you to mark the date on this photograph, and could

 2     you sign it?  The transcript reflects what you said.

 3        A.   [Marks]

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D624, Your Honours.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 1D -- actually, D197.

 8     It's already been MFI'd.  Let us just be reminded.

 9             We have an English translation here.  We probably have the

10     original somewhere.  With your permission, I would like to read it out in

11     English:

12             [In English] "At 13.30 hours, I got the information that from the

13     region of the Zemaljski Muzej there was action from mortars on our units,

14     and from the region of the Executive Council there was action with Zoljas

15     and Osas on the positions of the units of 1st bb.  Across the Loris, a

16     machine-gun nest was spotted, and behind the blue skyscrapers number 1, 2

17     and 3, snipers were spotted between the streets Ivana Krndelja and

18     Milutina Djuraskovica."

19             I believe it's Djuraskovica.

20             [Interpretation] This is a report from the 11th of June, 1992,

21     from the brigade commander, who was then a colonel, and it has to do with

22     the very same location.  Is it the same location, the one that this

23     report speaks of?

24        A.   Zemaljski Muzej, the museum, is mentioned.

25        Q.   And the three skyscrapers and the Executive Council.  Is that the

Page 6770

 1     government building that you marked with number 2?

 2        A.   Yes, but that is pretty far away from that location, it remained

 3     on the right-hand side of that picture.

 4        Q.   You think it's about 150 or 200 metres away.  Do you think that's

 5     too far for bullets?

 6        A.   It's important for the position that they're coming from.  Say if

 7     they were coming from the right-hand side, how could they hit me here on

 8     the left [indicates]?  So can it go around me and then hit me on the

 9     left-hand side?

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             This has been admitted, hasn't it?

12             Do we have time for anything else?

13             JUDGE KWON:  No, it was marked for identification.

14             In the meantime, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, one of the associated

15     exhibits we admitted, which has the number 65 ter 9733, has already been

16     exhibited as P435, so I don't think we need to submit it twice.

17             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE KWON:  So that will be stricken off.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I ask why it was marked for

20     identification when there is a translation?  Oh, there is no Serbian, is

21     there?

22                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

23             JUDGE KWON:  There was no original, Mr. Karadzic.  And I think it

24     is one of the documents used in other cases, and it was marked for

25     identification.

Page 6771

 1             How much longer do you have for the cross-examination of this

 2     witness, Mr. Karadzic?

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] A lot more time is needed.

 4     However, if I've been given an hour, then I have 45 minutes left.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 6             We'll rise for today, and we'll resume at 9.00 tomorrow morning.

 7             Ms. Mulaosmanovic, probably you must have been advised, but

 8     during the course of your testimony you are not supposed to discuss with

 9     anybody else about your testimony.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Well, we are adjourned.

12                           [The witness stands down]

13                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

14                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 15th day of

15                           September, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.