1 Thursday, 16 September 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 8.33 a.m.
6 JUDGE MORRISON: Good morning, everybody.
7 We're still sitting, as we were yesterday, pursuant to
8 Rule 15 bis. I'm afraid it was impossible for us to sit again yesterday
9 after we rose, for logistical reasons, court preparations for the
10 following case, and it wasn't sure at that stage what the arrangements
11 might be. We're very grateful for a lot of people changing their
12 arrangements so that we can sit this morning in this court until 10.00.
13 Mr. Hayden, what, if any, time would you want for re-examination
14 in this case?
15 MR. HAYDEN: At this stage, no more than five, six minutes, as it
17 JUDGE MORRISON: If we say 10 at the outside?
18 MR. HAYDEN: That would be fine.
19 JUDGE MORRISON: Thank you very much.
20 Dr. Karadzic, in that case, you have from now until 9.50. It is
21 impossible for us to sit after 10.00 because we're being followed
22 immediately by another case that's already been adjourned to allow us
23 this time.
24 WITNESS: FRANCIS ROY THOMAS [Resumed]
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Good morning to
1 everyone. Good morning, Excellencies.
2 I appreciate very much this time that we have been given. And I
3 see that we will be forced to seek to have this witness come back again,
4 depending on the probative value of the paragraphs of his statement.
5 May I go on?
6 JUDGE MORRISON: Yes, as expeditiously and as quickly as
7 possible, please, Mr. Karadzic, consistent with the interpreters being
8 able to keep up, of course.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]
11 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Thomas, good morning.
12 A. Good morning.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we look at 65 ter 9597 in
14 e-court, please.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. And while we're waiting, Mr. Thomas, I just wanted to say I
17 looked over what we were doing yesterday, and I wanted to assure you that
18 I had no intention of insulting you or underestimating your rank. I just
19 want us to get to the actual state of affairs in the best and fastest
20 possible way. I'm not in any way contesting you; only just your views,
21 some of them.
22 9597. I don't think it's been admitted yet in this case.
23 I would like to tell you that this is an order for defence of the
24 B and H Army, 1st Corps, of the 25th of October, 1993. Already, you were
25 there. We're talking about the Muslim Army, an order for defence, from
1 which we can see what they are doing and planning.
2 Let me ask you this, Mr. Thomas: Do you know who held which
3 positions around Sarajevo
4 A. First of all, I haven't got the document, Your Honour, shown on
5 my screen.
6 JUDGE MORRISON: Nor have we yet.
7 THE WITNESS: To answer, in general terms, Dr. Karadzic's
8 question: I had a general idea of the positions around Sarajevo, but we
9 did not have a completely clear picture of the front-line, and that was
10 only achieved after the cease-fire, when we were permitted access to the
11 entire front-line, as I've stated in my statement. We did not have a
12 complete picture of the front-line until the cease-fire, after which time
13 we actually walked the cease-fire line.
14 JUDGE MORRISON: We still don't have the document, I'm afraid, in
15 e-court in our system.
16 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
17 JUDGE MORRISON: Thank you.
18 Can we just -- Dr. Karadzic, can you just put that to one side
19 for a moment, until this problem is resolved, and go on with something
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 Q. I see that in one of your paragraphs exactly what you said; that
23 until 1994, there was a war between the parties there, and there were no
24 grounds for you to lodge protests because of the conduct of the sides
25 because it was war. But then after a more serious cease-fire, probably
1 after February 1994, then you had the opportunity to assess the actions
2 and to protest.
3 JUDGE MORRISON: We now have the document before us. Do you,
4 sir, have it?
5 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour, I do now.
6 JUDGE MORRISON: Thank you.
7 THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]
8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters apologise. We're on the wrong
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. May I ask you, Mr. Thomas, to look at this document. We can see
12 that this is from the 25th of October, 1993, the Army of the Republic of
13 Bosnia and Herzegovina; that is, that Croatian Muslim part, and this is
14 an order for defence.
15 In the first sentence, it states:
16 "The city of Sarajevo
17 the strength of a reinforced core."
18 And then at the bottom, it says, this part that's underlined:
19 "Anti-aircraft weapons are used as anti-personnel weapons.
20 "Main forces are grouped in directions of Hadzici-Brezovaca," and
21 so on, "from which they tie up our forces and are preventing their
23 Would you agree that this is a legitimate use of the artillery,
24 this way that we were perceived by the other side?
25 In the transcript, it is missing "artillery from which they are
1 tying up our artillery forces and preventing their manoeuvres."
2 Do you agree, Mr. Thomas?
3 A. I don't see the point of -- where it says that their artillery
4 forces are being used. It says anti-aircraft weapons are used as
5 anti-personnel weapons and that they are supporting combat actions with
6 artillery attacks. That's consistent with military tactics. What is
7 your question relating to? I'm not sure what your question is.
8 Q. Then the problem is in the translation. You can see -- I'm going
9 to read from it says here, "from which hold up our forces and prevent
10 their manoeuvre," but in the original it says "from which their artillery
11 fire is tying up our forces and preventing their manoeuvres."
12 This is the fourth line of second paragraph of item 1, and you
13 can see the villages of Rajlovac, Vogosca, Vilic, Mrkovici, Krupac,
14 Vojkovici, Gornji Kotorac ...:
15 [In English] "From which they hold up our forces and prevent
16 their manoeuvre."
17 [Interpretation] You are correct, the translation is missing,
18 "using artillery forces to hold our forces and prevent the maneuvering of
19 the same."
20 In the Serbian version, you'll see the toponyms:
21 "... Rajlovac, Vogosca, Mrkovici, Krupac, Vojkovici, Gornji
22 Kotorac, from which the auxiliary forces are occupying the dominant
23 buildings in the corps's area of responsibility, from which they are
24 heading up our forces with artillery fire and preventing their
1 Now, if you trust the interpreters, that they interpreted me
2 correctly, would you then agree that this was a legitimate use of the
4 A. Your Honour, I would say that use of artillery to support combat
5 action to delay or impede manoeuvre is, in fact, legitimate use of
6 artillery. It's only when there's collateral damage on civilians that we
7 begin to question it, or whether there's no military forces manoeuvring
8 in an area, that we question the use of artillery.
9 Q. Mr. Thomas, with all due respect, I would like you to stick to my
10 questions and two documents. There is no mention of civilians here. Our
11 enemy is not saying that we are misusing artillery against civilians.
12 Quite to the contrary, they're saying we're using artillery forces to
13 prevent them in their manoeuvres, which is legitimate.
14 And then it says in the following sentence:
15 "According to our knowledge so far, the aggressor uses the
16 elderly and women to hold their positions, and young men, special
17 (military and police) forces, volunteers from Serbia and Montenegro
18 mercenaries," which there were none, by the way, "for offensive combat
19 action. They start with forceful artillery attacks, followed by armoured
20 equipment ...," and so on and so forth.
21 Mr. Thomas, this is a document of the Muslim Army, and it
22 describes what we were doing, as their enemy. It doesn't mention
23 civilians anywhere. It says that we are using our last forces, the
24 elderly, and women to hold our positions because we don't have any other
25 forces, and we are using artillery to engage their forces and to prevent
1 their manoeuvring. So would you please state whether you think this is a
2 legitimate use of artillery?
3 A. I've already stated, use of artillery to support defence is a
4 legitimate use. And I also would like to point out to Mr. Karadzic that
5 this is a military document. I agree with that, and the military
6 document concerns itself with military activities. Probably some other
7 organisation, certainly the Civil Affairs and the politicians on the
8 Bosnian side, did tell us about the civilian casualties. And if you were
9 to present another document in evidence, which it would no doubt outline
10 all the civilian casualties from artillery fire. But this is a military
11 document, and, quite correctly, they are only dealing with the things
12 that interfere with their movement, their attacks. And if you are not
13 familiar with the use of military documents and how we limit what we say
14 in them, I suggest you listen to one of your military advisers.
15 I'm sorry, Your Honour, to digress, but I don't like being asked
16 a question on a narrow document which ignores all the other documents
17 that exist in the realm of information.
18 JUDGE MORRISON: Well, the question was fairly focused. What
19 Dr. Karadzic really asked is: Was it legitimately-used artillery, as it
20 were, to proceed an infantry offensive. I'm summarising it greatly. And
21 your answer to that was: Yes, it is.
22 THE WITNESS: That's correct. I said -- I said yes it was, the
23 first time, and I fail to understand why I got asked the question a
24 second time.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Thomas. I'm not going to respond to this
2 broadening of the issue, but I am disputing that we targeted civilians.
3 So that is also stated in this document.
4 Can we look at the third page of this document, please.
5 Until then, I would like to draw the attention of everyone that
6 the documents before items 5, the commander of the 1st Corps describes
7 what is in each of the areas of responsibility, referring to different
8 toponyms, Brijeg, Vis
9 are to do. And then in item 5, it says:
10 "The Croatian brigade --"
11 5.6, it says:
12 "The Croatian brigade Kralj Tvrtko was organising a decisive
13 defence in the area bridge over the River Miljacka, Hrasno-Vrbanja Most
14 intersection, Djuro Djakovic, Marsala Tita, Elektroprivreda," and so on.
15 This is the axis along which this commander is deploying the
16 Kralj Tvrtko Croatian brigade, which is acting within the 1st Corps. And
17 it says that the command post is at the Alija Aljagic School
18 know about this and did you report about this?
19 A. Yes, we knew about this, and in one of my report sitreps, you'll
20 see that a visit was made by one of my team leaders to the Croatian
21 brigade headquarters, one of the sitreps that was submitted in evidence.
22 We certainly knew where all the brigade headquarters were, and that was
23 part of the routine of a military observer team is to visit on a daily
24 basis, as is also stated in my statement.
25 Q. Would you agree that this is axis, which is the responsibility of
1 the Croatian brigade King Tvrtko, is along the Miljacka River
2 located in the very centre of the town of Sarajevo?
3 A. Yes, it's in the urban, built-up area.
4 Q. Thank you. And now we will look at 5.7, where it says, about the
5 15th Mountain Brigade, that it is going to be in the zone of the
6 Miljevici, exclusive village zone, Colina Kapa, Vrbanja Bridge
7 Hall, with the task of using convenient buildings as advantage points,
8 and so on and so forth.
9 Would we agree that this is 15th Mountain Brigade covers the part
10 of Trebevic, via Colina Kapa, up to the Vrbanja Bridge
11 hill, it is descending into the valley down to the river; is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Thank you. Would you please recall that Colina Kapa is one of
14 the peaks on the northern side of Trebevic, and it is to the south of the
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. When something drops from Trebevic on the town, Mr. Thomas, would
18 you agree that it would be necessary to establish which hill it is coming
19 from, whether from the one that is under the control of the Bosnian Army
20 or one that is under the control of the Serbian Army?
21 A. Yes. We were in a position to do so, but not all the time, with
22 the limitations that I made in my statement.
23 Q. And this refers to the number of men and also the freedom of
24 movement of your personnel; is that right?
25 A. In my statement, I dealt with the lack of freedom of movement of
1 both Serbs and Bosnians. Both parties denied us movement. In your case,
2 I'm only talking about restrictions that your army imposed on me. If
3 there was a Bosnian in your place, I would talk about his restrictions on
4 my movement.
5 Q. Thank you. But for -- in order to be able to establish the
6 objective truth, we need to know what the actions of the other side were.
7 Would you agree, Mr. Thomas, that the lines on Trebevic were
8 sometimes just 20 to 50 metres apart?
9 A. In fact, in the red building, as I again have stated in my
10 witness statement, the red building, the lines were only separated by a
11 wall, and people were shooting through the wall. So I know how close the
12 lines were because I, myself, was in that building. And I can tell you
13 people poked holes in the walls and shot at each other. Yes, the lines
14 were very close.
15 Q. But do you know that the Muslim side held the actual peak of
16 Debelo Brdo and the slopes facing the town, while the Serb side held the
17 foot of the hill and the other side? Do you know where Debelo Brdo is?
18 A. I'd have to look at a map to refresh my memory, but I do have an
19 idea of that general area. And I'm not convinced that we're talking
20 about the tactical situation as it was throughout my time there.
21 Q. Thank you. How many men are in these brigades in the center of
23 they need to be able to deploy according to the instructions in this
25 A. Well, what the instructions in the order and what was actually on
1 the ground, I think, might be at slight variance. I think they were
2 limited in the number of resources they had available to actually man the
3 front-line and keep a secure perimeter. So I think since you had this
4 document, I'm sure your intelligence sources also knew that most of the
5 Bosnian forces would be grouped very close to the front-line, because
6 they didn't have the resources and the mobility to move further away from
7 further away. So if you point out that there is defences along these --
8 in this built-up area, I'm suggesting to you that the positions that were
9 occupied would be as close as possible to the front-line so that any
10 incursion could not get a lodgement, and they would require most of the
11 available manpower to do that. So you would know from -- if you had this
12 document, you would know exactly where their positions were, and you
13 would be able to direct artillery fire exactly on the locations where
14 they had gathered their forces. And in some cases, in our observation,
15 you did that.
16 Q. Mr. Thomas, let's stick to the questions. According to your
17 knowledge, what was the strength of the brigades in the center of town?
18 We referred to a number of brigades that were deployed in these areas.
19 What was the strength of those brigades?
20 A. I have no idea. I did not believe the data that was given to me
21 by the Bosnians, and we had a very difficult time to estimate how many
22 people they would have. And from our position, we would estimate what
23 you call a brigade might only be actually a battalion size in a NATO
24 standard. In fact, I suspect that you probably know better than we do
25 the exact size because of your intelligence and informative networks in
1 the city, so you knew how many people were in the Croatian brigade and
2 you knew how many people were likely to desert.
3 So I feel, Your Honour, that I'm being pushed into answering
4 questions which he actually has the answers to already, because he's
5 presenting a document which is obviously obtained through intelligence
6 that has very detailed information about the Croatians.
7 JUDGE MORRISON: Major Thomas, you can't assume that this
8 document was available to the Serbian forces at the time of the conflict.
9 A lot of documents have been produced and disclosed thereafter.
10 Secondly, what knowledge Dr. Karadzic might have is not evidence
11 until it comes through you as an answer to a question, which is why he
12 must ask you these questions.
13 THE WITNESS: Okay. I apologise, Your Honour, for taking up his
14 valuable time.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Mr. Thomas, would you agree that it was your job to know the
17 ratio of forces and to know what the strength of the forces in Sarajevo
18 was? So the question was simply this: Do you know the average strength
19 of a brigade in such a narrow area? For example, the Kralj Tvrtko
20 Brigade or any other brigade, what was the strength of each of these
22 A. I have -- in the submission I gave yesterday, there is attached a
23 document with strengths, as we suspected, of the different units. And if
24 that hasn't reached Mr. Karadzic, I suspect that he is already aware of
25 that information. But we had an estimate, and I would doubt -- I would
1 doubt that even that estimate that was submitted yesterday from day to
2 day would be accurate.
3 And if you want me to go to my notes and -- I will look up the
4 submission I gave yesterday and I will look up what the figure that was
5 submitted on the Croatian brigade, if you want me to take the time to do
7 Q. Are you trying to say you have notes there with you?
8 A. I have a copy of the submission that I gave to the Court
9 yesterday, and that submission -- I can't remember all hundred pages of
10 evidence. And in that submission is a document that relates to what was
11 estimated to be the strength of these brigades when I took over
12 Sector Sarajevo
13 that, I can answer him from the document that was submitted, or he can
14 wait and look at it himself.
15 JUDGE MORRISON: It's already in documentary form. Then it would
16 be a waste of a limited amount of time to do that. And perhaps
17 Dr. Karadzic's team can investigate that.
18 But can I just ask this, as a supplementary matter: Was it your
19 impression that the Croatians were over-estimating or under-estimating
20 their strength in their reports to you?
21 THE WITNESS: I would say that it depended on what the context
22 was, but I would say that they probably over-estimated. I never
23 considered any of the brigades to be a brigade-sized formation. I would
24 consider them to be normally battalion-sized organisations, roughly. But
25 depending on the leader and the area and the enthusiasm, a couple
1 thousand people. But, of course, when there was a threat this could be
2 supplemented by more people. But my impression was that they had a
3 difficult area to hold, and that they did not want anybody to get into
4 it, and that they would have been -- put their troops forward. But we
5 were not allowed access to see their front-line positions.
6 JUDGE MORRISON: Thank you.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 Q. Can we have a look at the English? You see 5.8 there. 5.8:
9 "The 2nd Mountain Brigade has the following line of
10 responsibility: Kozija Cuprija, Hladivode, the City Hall, the Cathedral
11 with certain tasks, and the command post is in Vase Miskina Street, the
12 Foreign Languages building."
13 Is that what it says here?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. As you know, there were over 10 brigades in the inner-city of
17 full complement. So do you agree that it was between 50.000 and 80.000
18 men, soldiers who were able-bodied and who could function?
19 A. No, I wouldn't agree that the force was that large or number of
20 effectives. I don't think everyone had weapons. I think they had people
21 rotating through the positions and picking up weapons that were there.
22 Q. Thank you. We also have General Halilovic's report to his own
23 Presidency. If we have enough time, we're going to show it.
24 Look at the 105th Brigade:
25 "Linking the Museum of Revolution
1 Street, and the command post is in Trampina Street, right by a big park
2 where the Dom Milicije is, the very centre of town."
3 Further down: "Hrasnica," and so on.
4 Can we now have a look at paragraph 6. It's the next page in
5 Serbian and in English.
6 Do you agree, Mr. Thomas, that within town there was between 42
7 and 64 kilometres of a front-line; in the beginning of the war, 42
8 kilometres, at the end of the war, 64 kilometres of a front-line, where
9 the two warring parties were directly facing each other?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Thank you. Do you agree that the Sarajevo Romanija Corps faced
12 the 2nd and 3rd and 4th Corps along 240 or 250 kilometres?
13 A. I don't agree with that, I don't agree. My main area concern and
14 my main area of interest was either Gorazde, Zepa, or the perimeter of
16 able to get access, nor could I have the resources to patrol. So I'm
17 only interested in where you confronted the -- my main area of interest
18 was where the -- your corps confronted the corps based in Sarajevo.
19 Q. Thank you. But we are going to see on your maps that you did
20 have an observation post to the north, towards Vogosca, and patrols in
21 the municipality of Ilijas
22 Can we have a look at paragraph 6.
23 Is that right, between Sarajevo
24 observation post -- no, Lima
25 in Ilijas, at the very north of this area?
1 A. Only after the cease-fire, when a road was opened from Visoko to
2 Vogosca for transit by the Bosnians to their other encircled area. We
3 had no resources to patrol that area consistently during the conflict in
5 Q. Thank you. We often come across this information that there was
6 not enough manpower. What would have been sufficient resources for you
7 to have sufficient insight all over?
8 A. Well, when the cease-fire was put in place, I was given up to 200
9 military observers. By June 1994, I was down to 60. As I handed in in
10 this statement, I tracked a number of military observers that I had
11 throughout my period there, and also the location of OPs which changed
12 from time to time. I had a peak of 23 observation posts. At other
13 times, I was down to only five or six. And it's all -- I prepared this
14 briefing for senior officers in Zagreb
15 Dr. Karadzic, Your Honour. And it's also attached as part of my witness
16 statement. And the resources -- the resources actually conceal a big
17 deficiency that every 30 days we rotated people out. So during the two
18 days of rotation, half of my complement of military observers might
19 leave, and the new ones would be replacing them, and they would take
20 time. And the priority during the first -- up until February was to
21 monitor fire into the city and the fire units of the Serbs. And the
22 patrolling was secondary. And at some times I even complained about not
23 having enough resources to adequately man my responsibilities in Gorazde
24 and Zepa, and those are -- also some of that is evident in the
25 documentation I handed with my witnesses statement on the sitreps.
1 JUDGE MORRISON: Thank you.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 Q. Please just tell me how many people you would have needed to
4 cover everything and to know everything that was happening within your
5 mandate. Could you just respond to that? How many people did you need
6 for all of that? Nothing more than that, just how many people.
7 A. Well, no military commander ever thinks he has enough people, so
8 I could -- can't really answer that question. I thought that I had --
9 when I had 200, I was doing a good job, but it turns out I didn't know
10 some of the things you've just told me.
11 Q. Thank you. Could we please have a look at paragraph 6 now. We
12 see here that it says "Fire Support." This is a document of the
13 Muslim Army:
14 "Fire support.
15 "Core artilleries in the Igman area. Observation posts in the
16 areas of Mojmilo and Svabino Brdo."
17 All of them are hills in the very centre of Sarajevo. You know
18 where Mojmilo is and you know where Svabino Brdo is, right? Thank you.
20 "Fire should only be opened within the defence area only on
21 orders from the corps commander.
22 "The firing post in the area of Zmajevac, Gazin Han, Bistrik,
23 Mojmilo, Dobrinja, Hrasnica, Igman, Vitkovic, Svabino Brdo, Zuc,
24 Buca Potok, Hum, Breka.
25 "Firing positions N," I don't know what N means, "of the brigade
1 artillery in the areas of Velesic, Sedrenik, Hrasno, Aneks, Butmir,
2 Orahov Brijeg, Sip, Buca Potok."
3 Are you familiar with these locations, and am I right if I say
4 that all of this is within the inner-city, the area that we were
5 surrounding? Just say yes or no. I don't have much time.
6 A. Yes, yes.
7 Q. Thank you. Further on, it says:
8 "Observation posts in the areas of Svabino Brdo, Zuc, Hum,
9 Grdonja, Zmajlic, Colina Kapa and Mojmilo."
10 Do you agree that all of these were elevations that were held by
11 the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Thank you. Paragraph 7 speaks of anti-armour combat, and it says
15 "The focus of anti-armour combat should be in the axes of
16 Lukavica-Dobrinja, Ilidza-Stup, Rajlovac-Zabrdje, Vogosca-Hotonj, and
18 "Anti-tank for Red Arrow should be in Otoka, anti-armour
19 launching positions in Mojmilo, Svabino Brdo and Zuc areas."
20 Podrije [phoen] and Hrastova Glavica areas, that's where the
21 anti-armour launching positions should be.
22 Do you agree that this is an impressive force that we have
23 surrounded, blocked in Sarajevo
24 A. No, I don't think observation posts necessarily mean -- and they
25 didn't detail the actual artillery resources that would be used. I stand
1 by the intelligence summary that I gave that was attached as my witness
3 This is a nice-sounding order, but if the artillery observers
4 don't have any resources to fire or they don't have stocks of ammunition
5 to use, then it may not mean much.
6 And, similarly, anti-tanks, they're talking about launching
7 positions. That could be launching a missile, anything from a hand-held
8 anti-tank weapon system up to a sophisticated vehicle-mounted one. We
9 saw no evidence of vehicle-mounted anti-tank systems.
10 So this is -- again, the order says one thing, but whether they
11 had the capability on the ground is another thing. And as I have already
12 submitted, the start point --
13 Q. Thank you, thank you, thank you. We can see here what -- from
14 where they are going to fire. Observation posts are also on elevations.
15 They are not part of their fire strength, but never mind, let's move on.
16 The next page now, let us see what the PVO is using.
17 Next page, please. The end of paragraph 8, that is. The next
19 The 1st LARD of the PVO should be used for a circular defence of
20 Mojmilo and Golo Brdo, Zuc and Orlic areas, in co-operation with the ARJ
21 of the PVO of the 1st Motorised Brigade, the 2nd V Motorised Brigade and
22 the 101st Motorised Brigade."
23 You are familiar with all of these locations referred to in this
24 order; right?
25 A. I'm familiar with the locations. Your Honour, I don't understand
1 what a LARD is. Is there some problem with the translation? A LARD, the
2 1st LARD.
3 JUDGE MORRISON: Yes.
4 THE WITNESS: I assume it's an anti-aircraft weapons system, but
5 I don't want to be --
6 JUDGE MORRISON: Yes. Dr. Karadzic, can you assist by going back
7 to the Serbian version?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now you're going to denounce me as
9 an incompetent supreme commander, but I have no idea what it is. It is
10 probably an abbreviation for a light artillery rocket, something.
11 They're probably using some unit to fire at targets on the ground.
12 Believe me, I don't know. I think the first word would have to be
13 "light." The L stands for "Light," probably.
14 JUDGE MORRISON: That's probably as good as we're going to get
15 it. Either that or it really does mean "LARD."
16 THE WITNESS: I accept -- I'm assuming that it's a light
17 anti-aircraft weapons system of some kind.
18 JUDGE MORRISON: Mr. Tieger, I think you were going to assist.
20 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I've lost now what the
21 question was about this, except was I familiar with the location.
22 JUDGE MORRISON: I think that was the question.
23 THE WITNESS: I am.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. And that this anti-aircraft weapon is being used against targets
1 on the ground; right?
2 A. Yes.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 Can this document be admitted?
5 JUDGE MORRISON: Yes.
6 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D633, Your Honours.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D2391, please. I just have the
8 English version.
9 Since we were wondering a moment ago what it was they actually
10 had and what they were using for firing from these positions, there is
11 just this one brigade here, the 102nd Motorised Brigade, and they are
12 reporting as to what they have, and --
13 MR. HAYDEN: Sorry to interrupt. We have the original document.
14 JUDGE MORRISON: Thank you.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 Q. Now I'm going to put to you what it is that we see here,
17 Mr. Thomas. It says:
18 "The 101st Motorised Brigade," and then it explains activities,
19 and then paragraph 3 speaks of neighbours, who is on the right, who is on
20 the left, in terms of their own units. The right-hand neighbour is the
21 brigade artillery group of the 2nd Vitez Motorised Brigade in the area of
22 Vitkovic Brdo, then a platoon of mortars, 120-millimetres, and a squad of
23 82-millimetre mortars. Zestika, a platoon of 120-millimetre mortars, and
24 two platoons of 82-millimetre mortars. Zrak, that's a factory in the
25 centre of city, near the TV station, a platoon of 122-millimetre
2 "The left neighbour.
3 "Brigade Artillery Group of the 5th Motorised Brigade on firing
4 positions --"
5 I'm actually doing a site translation from English:
6 "... in the area of Dobrinja."
7 A. Your Honour, he mentioned a platoon of 122-millimetre mortars
8 inside a factory. I think my English says a squad, which is a
9 difference. A platoon would indicate it was a formed troop of up to
10 four, whereas a squad indicates, perhaps at the most, two Howitzers. And
11 inside a factory indicates not a firing position. But I'm glad he's
12 enlightened me on where they were actually located.
13 Q. [In English] Okay, I read it in English.
14 JUDGE MORRISON: Dr. Karadzic, what's the question? Are you
15 asking the witness whether or not he accepts the veracity of the
16 information in the document? Because if he does, then that's probably
17 enough for you, isn't it?
18 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, I'll accept that information. Some of
19 the details, like the fact that those 122-millimetre guns were inside a
20 factory, indicates why perhaps we never spotted those particular weapons.
21 But, otherwise, I accept that . And they do -- I stand corrected. They
22 did have some artillery inside the city, although I still stand by my
23 statement that they didn't actually use them; from inside the city, that
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. But over here, it's the 102nd Brigade that is reporting to the
2 effect that they were, indeed, using that, and it was in this action that
3 took place on the 1st of February, 1994, while you were still there. So
4 we do see all of this. The 105-millimetre Howitzers in paragraph 4, and
5 then in paragraph 3 we see:
6 [In English] "Artillery group, 101 Motorised Brigade on firing
7 position in the area of Mojmilo Hill, squad of mortars, 120 --"
8 A. Your Honour, I'm not reading anything that says these were fired.
9 I'm still on a thing that's just outlining what equipment is there, and
10 it's dated the 1st day of February. But I haven't got the screens that
11 shows me that these things are firing.
12 JUDGE MORRISON: What are you reading from, Dr. Karadzic?
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm reading from the English
14 translation, page 1. It says "Neighbours." You have it there, "Right
15 neighbour, left neighbour."
16 [In English] 3.2 and 3.3, "Brigade Artillery." And point 4,
17 "[Indiscernible] Group 102."
18 [Interpretation] What you have on your screen, Excellency, is the
19 first page, it is the neighbours that are referred to here and what they
20 have anyway.
21 JUDGE MORRISON: What's your question to the witness?
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Did you know about this kind of fire-power of the 101st Motorised
24 Brigade, and did you report about it? I'm sorry, the 102nd Motorised
1 A. We reported on the mortars. As I've just indicated in my
2 previous statement, we were not aware of the 122-millimetre. And as you
3 just previously stated, you said in this report it stated that it was
4 firing, and I'm looking at this report and I see nowhere that it says the
5 122-millimetre artillery pieces were actually firing. And you, yourself,
6 indicated that the Zrak squad of Howitzers was in a factory, which is a
7 very poor fire position, so I'm just interested in whether we missed
8 something and that these Howitzers were actually firing. And the
9 122-millimetre isn't normally a Howitzer; it's a gun. So perhaps they
10 were not that -- didn't know what artillery they actually had.
11 Q. Thank you. Can we have the next page, please, just to see what
12 they have in terms of tank and anti-tank equipment.
13 This is the 102nd Motorised Brigade in the area of Mojmilo and
14 west of Mojmilo. Do you see number 5 "Anti-Tank Combat":
15 [In English] "The focus of anti-tank combat should be on the
16 following directions: Azici-Stup, Market Street-Refrigerated Warehouse,
17 Kasindolska Street-Stup, Nedzarici-Stup, Energoinvest-Stup.
18 "Anti-tank squad composed of: Tank squad of T-55, APC M-60s,
19 squad of infantry combat vehicles M-80," and so on and so on.
20 [Interpretation] And 5.1:
21 [In English] "Tank squad of T-55 is placed in the expected area
22 of Brijesce Hill," and so on and so forth.
23 [Interpretation] Just one brigade, Mr. Thomas, has this kind of
24 power, and finally it was signed by the brigade commander. Actually,
25 Hajrudin Grabovica, the chief of staff.
1 So when he says where the anti-tank line is going to be -- or,
2 rather, where this combat is going to take place, and he refers to
3 Kasindolska Street in the Serb part of Nedzarici, you think that they
4 just held that there and that they weren't firing from it?
5 A. Well, we never spotted them firing those tanks. And the other
6 question I would have followed up after seeing this is whether all the
7 brigades had this kind of fire-power or whether this is tanks being
8 assigned to that brigade and that's why it's reading the way it is. It
9 doesn't tell me, in fact, where those tank resources are located. One of
10 them, it says it looks look they're starting from an area of a warehouse
11 or something. So most definitely we did not see those tanks firing at
12 that time, and we did report tanks, as -- again, in the statement I
13 handed in, there is tanks firing later. So this is a piece of paper. We
14 did not see the tanks fire. I think we would have noticed it because we
15 were watching for when they would actually use weapons. And the limited
16 number of tanks they had, we were very curious, Your Honour, about when
17 they were going to use them.
18 So to answer directly, Dr. Karadzic, we did not see these tanks
20 Q. It was your task, Mr. Thomas. You should have done that.
21 JUDGE MORRISON: Dr. Karadzic, if he didn't see them fire, the
22 witness didn't see them fire. It doesn't mean to say they didn't fire.
23 All he's saying is he didn't see them fire.
24 THE WITNESS: And, Your Honour, I might add the Serb people at
25 the time on the front-line didn't advise us or complain about Bosnian
1 tanks firing, either, or we would have investigated it.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 In the reports of the Serb side, we can see how many casualties
4 that the Serbian side has suffered from these weapons mentioned here.
5 Can this document be admitted? We haven't really got much time.
6 JUDGE MORRISON: Yes.
7 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D634, Your Honours.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have 65 ter 9491. Let's
9 see what another brigade has, and then we are going to move on to some
10 other topics. We are really short of time.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Mr. Thomas, it says here that this order is being issued by the
13 1st S. Brigade:
14 "Wartime duties of the 1st S. Motorised Brigade, the armoured
15 battalion, according to temporary wartime establishment, the command of
16 the armoured battalion and the 1st Tank Company."
17 When one has a tank company, doesn't that mean that one has tanks
18 as well?
19 A. I would say yes. It doesn't mean that, in fact, it isn't a
20 deception plan, it doesn't mean that they actually have the tanks with
21 them or they aren't all destroyed or hidden away or whatever. We would
22 have been very interested in the location of a company of tanks.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 Can this document be admitted?
25 THE WITNESS: I can't read the -- there's no English translation,
1 so I don't know for sure that this document refers to a company of tanks.
2 JUDGE MORRISON: The translation is being checked, as they say,
3 Mr. Hayden?
4 MR. HAYDEN: There is no translation available for this document,
5 and I don't think the witness has been able to comment on it or verify
6 anything in this document.
7 JUDGE MORRISON: No. The witness couldn't attest to this
8 document, even though there's no dispute that the contents were
9 accurately translated by Dr. Karadzic, so there's no basis for admitting
10 it at the present time.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With all due respect, that says a
12 great deal about the mission of the UN Military Observers.
13 How can we take these findings into account of an insufficient
15 1D2396, could we have that now, please. S. Motorised Brigade
17 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, can I make an observation at this
19 I believe Sector Sarajevo, which included all the other units in
21 company, either. For example, in that general vicinity there would be --
22 there were a French battalion, an Egyptian battalion, and nothing was
23 reported by them either.
24 JUDGE MORRISON: Thank you. Well, plainly, no military mission
25 is going to be 100 per cent successful. But if you didn't see something,
1 you didn't see something.
2 THE WITNESS: And we didn't see it.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 Q. We have the 1st S. Motorised Brigade Command, 4th of February,
6 [In English] "The following officers are appointed to carry out
7 its war duties in 1st S. Motorised Brigade, in mixed artillery battalion,
8 according to temporary war formations."
9 Do you agree that this mixed artillery battalion existed in this
10 1st S. Motorised Brigade?
11 A. If you're referring -- relating that to the previous document
12 that I looked at, then I would say yes.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 Can this be admitted, please? Actually, we could admit both of
15 them on the basis of this.
16 THE WITNESS: I can't see what else is in this document. Is this
17 the entire document, just appointing officers?
18 JUDGE MORRISON: I mean --
19 MR. HAYDEN: If I can be of assistance here. We do have the
20 original, and this is just a -- the translation on the screen is an
21 extract from that original. So, at the very least, we would ask that the
22 entire document -- two-page document is translated before admission.
23 JUDGE MORRISON: So it will be marked for identification.
24 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In the light of this new answer,
1 can the previous document be admitted in the same sense?
2 JUDGE MORRISON: Well, Mr. Hayden, logic would dictate that
3 that's probably a wise course. We're talking about the document, rather
4 than the truth of the contents.
5 MR. HAYDEN: We don't have any objection to the authenticity of
6 the previous document. Therefore, no objection, if --
7 JUDGE MORRISON: So that will be marked for identification as
9 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 Q. Let me remind you, Mr. Thomas, that on page of the transcript of
12 the 15th of September yesterday, 6870, line 20 on, you replied to my
13 question about reports by Victor Andreev, and you said:
14 [In English] "I was aware of this memo. My second day in
16 the officer involved to prepare this memo, and I certainly don't believe
17 paperwork that is handed in front of me ...," [Interpretation] and so on
18 and so forth.
19 Now I'm going to put a question, and it should be answered with a
20 yes or a no.
21 Was there antagonism and disagreement in the views of the UN
22 Military Observer Mission
23 A. No.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we now look at MFI
25 D155. This is also a Muslim document, Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina,
1 Supreme Defence Staff, Security Administration, dated the 7th of
2 December, 1993.
3 Can we -- yes, this is the first page of the document. Can we
4 look at page 3. Page 3, please.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. This is a report of the Military Security -- Military Secret
7 Service of the Muslim side, and in this part in the box it says:
8 "In conversation with members of the UNMO which were visiting the
9 areas of responsibility of the 1st Mountain Brigade and the 2nd Viteska
10 Mountain Brigade, it has been learned that a large number of members of
11 Chetniks formations are staying in Rajlovac with the markings different
12 from those born by the so-called Army of Republika Srpska, even though it
13 was banned before to wear such insignia. These UNMO members, in
14 conversation, also indicated that there is allegedly antagonism between
15 them and members of the UNPF, emphasising that they are informing their
16 superiors in an objective way, but that the bulk of their information is
17 being censored in the Zagreb Command, and information censored in this
18 way is being sent to the UN. The possible disagreement between the UNMO
19 and the UNPF in the Sarajevo
20 of the UNMO for information from members of our units that relate to
21 criminal actions by members of the UNPF (black market, alcohol, drugs,
23 Three questions, Mr. Thomas. Does the Serb side have any reason
24 to be suspicious if your or anyone's members or mediators would inform
25 the other side about what they see on our side; yes or no?
1 A. No, because if any of my people were found transmitting
2 information to the other side, they would be sent out of Sector Sarajevo.
3 So if they did it openly or were caught, they would be gone. In fact,
4 they would probably be sent home.
5 Q. I do not dispute that that would be so. But if they are not
6 caught, would the Serb side then have reason to be suspicious, and that
7 is why they were reluctant to see international forces on their
8 territory, out of concern that the other side would receive information?
9 I'm talking about cases when they are not caught, just like these people
10 were not caught.
11 A. Well, this is an allegation which has not been substantiated.
12 And, secondly, I can't do anything about people I didn't catch.
13 JUDGE MORRISON: Mr. Hayden, I think you were going to make a
14 similar observation, I anticipate.
15 MR. HAYDEN: I hope so. I'll wait to see what your observation
16 was, but it may have passed us by anyway.
17 JUDGE MORRISON: No, I mean, I was going to say, Dr. Karadzic,
18 you're giving a hypothetical situation and asking the witness to
19 speculate about it. I mean, what he says must be culled with common
20 sense. If he didn't know somebody was doing it, he couldn't do anything
21 about it.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With all due respect, the Defence
23 believes that the secret report by the Secret Service of the Muslim Army
24 is evidence that members of UNMO spoke with them, and in that
25 conversation they relayed what they saw in Rajlovac. I'm not disputing
1 and I do not doubt that Mr. Thomas would punish them, but that still
2 doesn't mean that Serbs had no reason for caution. And this is evidence
3 that our opponents were receiving information about our situation. This
4 is what I'm talking about only. This is a Muslim document. The
5 Secret Service established that the MOs were informing them about the
6 situation in the Serb territories.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. My second question, Mr. Thomas, is: Is it evident here that you
9 investigated these forces in relation to criminal acts? That is what it
10 says here, doesn't it?
11 A. But we did not investigate criminal acts. The UN had its own
12 agencies for investigating criminal acts. Our responsibility was only to
13 report it, and after that no further investigation. And if the -- if I'd
14 been tasked to do it, I would have refused, because it was the exception
15 of one or two police officers on call-out from the Scandinavian
16 countries. None of my military observers were trained in police work.
17 So I categorically say we did not undertake criminal investigations, and
18 if we had or were made aware of criminal investigations, we would
19 immediately report it to the appropriate UN authorities. And I can
20 personally say that when I found at least one individual - I can speak
21 without mentioning names - was involved in a criminal activity, I made
22 sure he left the sector.
23 Does this answer the question for the -- Your Honour?
24 JUDGE MORRISON: Well, of course, it's Dr. Karadzic's question,
25 not mine.
1 But what you're saying is this, if I can summarise it: If you
2 found out or suspected somebody was involved in illegal activity, you
3 would report it further up the chain of command?
4 THE WITNESS: Yes. Well, the UN had established appropriate
5 authorities to deal with that. They even had a police element.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 Q. Do you remember that -- can we look at -- do you recall that the
8 Ukrainian Battalion in the Krupac location was replaced because of
10 A. The Krupac location, I'm not aware of that. It doesn't -- was
11 that -- I don't think that was located in Sarajevo. Was it? Are you
12 talking about the Ukrainian Battalion area in Sarajevo, which was not on
13 the front-line, down --
14 Q. Yes. Krupac is next to the Famos factory in Hrasnica, and this
15 is where Zoljas, Osas and -- were smuggled, and evidence was collected
16 that even they carried rockets and bombs on stretchers, and the Muslim
17 Army would buy weapons that would slip by us. And this is something that
18 was found out by the United Nations, and then this smuggling of weapons
19 to Muslims was stopped. Had we had time, we would have shown evidence of
20 this, and we might do that on some other occasion.
21 But were you aware of these matters?
22 A. I'm not aware of this, because -- I do know about Ukrainian
23 smuggling, but we had no Ukrainian elements in Hrasnica during the nine
24 months that I was in Sarajevo
25 city proper, and a company was based in the Zepa pocket. So I'm not sure
1 about what we are -- what was the time-frame we're talking about. There
2 was an element of criminal activity certainly in Hrasnica, but it was
3 associated with the Bosnians, not with the Ukrainians -- any Ukrainians
4 that might have been there. My understanding, that was -- during my time
5 was a French area of responsibility.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we look at -- this
7 one was MFI
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. While we're waiting, Mr. Thomas: In your statement that has over
10 120 paragraphs, we've seen that some documents that were shown to you and
11 that were admitted, you interpreted them. Did the Prosecution ask you to
12 provide your expert opinion on those documents, those reports?
13 A. I'm not aware of which documents, Your Honour, that the accused
14 is referring to.
15 JUDGE MORRISON: Dr. Karadzic, you're going to have to be more
17 THE WITNESS: As far as I know, I wouldn't have interpreted any
18 documents from any other language but English, even though I do read
19 French. So if there is an interpretation, perhaps you'll have to ask the
20 Court officials.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. I'm sorry. I didn't mean "translation" in that sense. I just
23 meant an expert professional analysis, that type of interpretation.
24 There are paragraphs here, for example -- it's a paragraph
25 referring to documents. It's paragraph 96 of your statement, where you
1 provided your professional expert opinion about numerous findings, sitrep
2 reports. So did the Prosecution ask you to give your professional expert
3 opinion about those findings and reports?
4 A. I'd have to look at my binder to see if those aren't some that
5 are now been taken out because of -- is it dated after my time? Because
6 I understand from the Prosecution's Office that some documents are being
7 re-submitted. What is the date, Dr. Karadzic, of the documents you're
8 referring to?
9 Q. This is your consolidated statement of over 120 paragraphs, so
10 this is the last statement of -- or interviews from November 1997 and
11 May -- and 2009, May 2009. And this is 65 ter 22787, and these are the
13 A. Your Honour, to save time, if I made a statement based on my
14 expert opinion, that's what it would be, expert opinion. I underline the
15 word "opinion." And if it's there, to save all the haroosh [phoen] of
16 going back through all these documents and figuring it out exactly, it
17 was an opinion based -- and I was presumably being asked to comment on
18 somebody else's submission and to give the Prosecution's Office some idea
19 of what it meant.
20 Does this meet Dr. Karadzic's requirements or do I have to look
21 up the specific document?
22 JUDGE MORRISON: For myself, I don't think we have anything like
23 enough time to pursue it in that detail at present.
24 Dr. Karadzic, I mean, the statement appears to speak for itself,
25 in the sense that it seems to be evident that the witness was doing what
1 you have asked, he was providing an opinion about reports.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If it has any probative value, an
3 expert evaluation of documents by this witness, who is in the capacity of
4 a witness here and not as an expert, then we need to kindly ask the
5 Trial Chamber to have this witness recalled, because this is a very
6 voluminous statement with many assertions that have to be tested by the
7 Defence. Thus, practically the whole indictment relating to the Sarajevo
8 area is contained in this ambitious statement and this
9 ambitiously-conceived witness on the part of the Prosecution, so we need
10 a week for this witness, not just a few hours.
11 If we are taking it into account, then we have to ask him to come
12 back and so that we can objectivise each of these paragraphs.
13 JUDGE MORRISON: Dr. Karadzic, that isn't a matter which can
14 possibly be determined at this stage in the proceedings. It is, of
15 course, open to you to call evidence which challenges the findings of
16 this witness. And, indeed, there would be little point in recalling this
17 witness unless there was an objective and subjective challenge to each
18 part of his evidence, backed up by other evidence, so it's something that
19 needs careful consideration.
20 Have you any other questions you can usefully ask now? I think
21 we have time for one more before the Prosecution's re-examination.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have one more.
23 I would like to call up --
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Actually, I'd like to ask you, Mr. Thomas: You knew
1 General Rose, is that right, and he commends you personally on page ERN
2 63 --
3 THE INTERPRETER: Could Dr. Karadzic be asked to repeat the page
5 MR. KARADZIC:
6 Q. [In English] "The UNMO reporters were completely useless."
7 [Interpretation] He --
8 [In English] "It was a money-spinner. They wrote shoot --
10 JUDGE MORRISON: [Microphone not activated]
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise.
12 This is R063-0106, page 4.
13 [In English] General Rose:
14 "The UNMO's reports were completely useless. It was a
15 money-spinner. They wrote shoot-reps and reports based on what they were
16 told by the local commanders. Many were not technically competent, and
17 some were sold out."
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Does this comport with what you were saying, that we were not
20 informing you that we were being shot at, and had we informed you, that
21 you would have reported about it; is that correct?
22 A. No, I don't agree with that statement. I don't know whether
23 that, in fact -- I don't have a copy of that document in front of me, so
24 I don't necessarily believe that even General Rose even said that. But
25 I can tell you that my people observed the shots -- fall of shot that was
1 reported, and they also reported the outgoing ammunition that was fired.
2 JUDGE MORRISON: Thank you.
3 Dr. Karadzic, that must be the last question.
4 Mr. Hayden.
5 MR. HAYDEN: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Re-examination by Mr. Hayden:
7 Q. Major Thomas, a few brief questions concerning your
9 Yesterday, Dr. Karadzic was asking you about Croatian or HVO fire
10 on Sarajevo
11 transcript. You said, at line 15 of page 85:
12 "We do know that shells fell on the city from Croatian artillery,
13 and that was identified and reported separately."
14 Subsequently, Judge Morrison asked you about the frequency of
15 that shelling, and you replied:
16 "The only reason -- not very often."
17 And you went on to say the reason you recalled that was an
18 anecdote, you would tell people about the convoluted nature of the war in
20 If I can call up 65 ter 10575, Mr. Registrar, which I believe is
21 already in evidence.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this has been admitted as P1561.
23 MR. HAYDEN: Thank you.
24 Q. With respect to your comment about reporting Croatian activity,
25 if we look down to paragraph 2(b), and we see each of the warring
1 factions named, and the headline "Incident report, increp levels." Is
2 that a reflection of the fact that each of the warring factions had their
3 activities reported?
4 A. Yes, it is. However, this was a report that was designed for
6 areas. And so in this case it would have been so unusual that we would
7 have sent a special report. And, in fact, I'm not sure that UNMOs
8 observed the Croatian fire, but it might have been, in fact, one of
9 the -- probably the French battalions.
10 Q. To follow up that answer: If I understand correctly, if Croatian
11 fire into Sarajevo
12 or a report?
13 A. It would be reported in our report, yes. And so what I'm
14 suggesting is that I don't recall it being necessarily reported by
15 military observers. I suspect it -- since it fell in the Croatian area,
16 the Croatian brigade area, and since the Croatian brigade area fell
17 within one of the areas of responsibility of the French Battalion, it was
18 most likely that report originated with the French Battalion.
19 Q. Thank you. Yesterday, you spoke about two specific sniping
20 incidents that you recall, and I wanted to clarify something about each
21 of those. The first one was at transcript page 47, and you discussed the
22 death of an elderly man near a CNN vehicle. Do you know which side
23 perpetrated that sniping incident?
24 A. No. We could not determine which side killed this man. And it
25 wasn't near a CNN vehicle. He was killed, and then the CNN vehicles
1 passed by. And, of course, they stopped and did a public relations take
2 on this or a news -- on this. So we could not determine who fired the
3 shot, and we could not -- the only motive that we could attribute to this
4 man being killed, because he surely did not look like a fighter, was that
5 he had been killed so that CNN would record it for their news. And since
6 it happened at 2.00 in the afternoon, we knew that it would make it back
7 to North America in time for the CNN sound-bite at 6.00.
8 Q. You also spoke, Major Thomas, about an incident concerning a
9 young woman, a 19-year-old woman, who you said was shot while speaking on
10 the phone with her boyfriend. Do you know where she was speaking on the
11 phone with her boyfriend when she was shot?
12 A. She was in an apartment building that overlooked Dobrinja. And I
13 just happened to be in the area, and I wanted to see my patrol undertake
14 this investigation. They had been requested to go there. And on that
15 day, I was also visiting that particular area to find out -- to find out
16 how they were managing dealing with the collection point of the bodies
17 from the incidents. So I also found this -- I saw this young lady again
18 with a different patrol, where they were -- and then finally I did the
19 patrol at night. And it was the people at the scene where she was first
20 hit that told me that they had recovered -- you know, the phone was still
21 in her hand, I guess.
22 Q. And do you recall what type of clothing she was wearing?
23 A. She was definitely in civilian clothes. Well, her leg had been
24 sort of blown off, so --
25 Q. Earlier today, Dr. Karadzic began to ask you about a paragraph in
1 your statement, I believe it's paragraph 57 to 60, where you discussed
2 protests that were made. Dr. Karadzic paraphrased you as saying, and
3 this is at transcript page 3:
4 "Before February 1994, 'no grounds for you to lodge protests
5 because of the conduct of the sides.'"
6 And if I can take you to paragraph 57, which I believe he was
7 talking about, where you said:
8 "Prior to February 1994, the sides were at war, so it was rather
9 difficult to protest anything."
10 Did the difficulties of protesting anything prevent you from
11 making any protests?
12 A. No, we -- we certainly protest. And as Dr. Karadzic indicated,
13 he didn't think it was the place of a major to talk to General Galic. So
14 as I said in my statement, I was stonewalled by Major Indjic. So often,
15 usually what would happen is the Egyptian colonel at UNPROFOR
16 headquarters would prepare a note -- a formal note which would be
17 couriered across to Lukavica, but, of course, we didn't feel that that
18 was going to result in anything either. However, in cases of -- and just
19 to clarify, when I talked about co-operation of local brigade commanders,
20 when we had some casualty lying out in the open, we sometimes could
21 arrange a cease-fire and time to get that individual brought behind the
22 lines of either side.
23 Q. Thank you. And one final question.
24 Yesterday, you were asked about paragraph 47 of your statement
25 about the local agreements with Serb brigade commanders, and this is at
1 transcript pages 67 to 68. When you said that Bosnian Serb brigade
2 commanders were confident in making local agreements, generally speaking,
3 what were the subjects of those agreements? What was the subject-matter?
4 A. It varied, depending on the time, but I certainly remember
5 getting -- as the one in June 1994, where I was able to get the
6 battalion -- the Bosnian battalion commander to stop his unit from
7 retaliatory fire for a sniper incident, and I was able to get my three
8 military observers out, where they were caught in no-man's land, where
9 they had gone to try to rescue three Bosnian women. And I think I
10 described that incident already to the Court.
11 Q. And would those agreements affect matters outside the areas of
12 responsibility of that brigade commander?
13 A. No. No brigade commander on any side would talk for a brigade --
14 talk for another brigade commander's area. They wouldn't in our army,
15 either. So they were very -- they were very -- nobody wants somebody
16 else interfering in their area of responsibility.
17 MR. HAYDEN: No further questions, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE MORRISON: Thank you very much.
19 There are no further questions from the Bench.
20 Major Thomas, it simply remains to thank you for coming to give
21 your evidence on this occasion, and you are now free to leave. And a
22 safe journey back home.
23 The Court will now adjourn. The trial will recommence at
24 9.00 a.m.
25 already been given in public -- September. Now, we talk about Freudian
1 slips. There's one.
2 [The witness withdrew]
3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 10.04 a.m.
4 to be reconvened on Monday, the 27th day
5 of September, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.