Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7199

 1                           Thursday, 30 September 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everybody.

 6             Mr. Robinson, I was told that you have something to raise before

 7     we begin.

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  Thank you.

 9             Actually, I'd let Dr. Karadzic speak to this, but he's not well

10     today and not able to proceed, and we'll be asking the Chamber to adjourn

11     for the day because of his health situation.  But I would like to ask him

12     to explain that directly to the Chamber in private session.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We'll go into private session.

14                           [Private session]

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Page 7200











11  Pages 7200-7201 redacted. Private session.















Page 7202

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14                           [Open session]

15             JUDGE KWON:  And bring in the witness.

16             I'd like to note for the record the accused is not feeling well

17     today.  He has kindly agreed to proceed with the first witness, and the

18     Chamber appreciates it very much.  And the Chamber asks the Registry to

19     look into the matter with the greatest care.  And also I have to note

20     that Mr. Karadzic agrees to let us know if he does not feel well in the

21     middle of his cross-examination.

22                           [The witness entered court]

23             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, Mr. Soja.

24             If you could take the solemn declaration, please.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

Page 7203

 1     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 2                           WITNESS:  MILOMIR SOJA

 3                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Please take a seat.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

 7             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8                           Examination by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

 9        Q.   Good morning, sir.

10        A.   Good morning.

11        Q.   Could you please state your full name.

12        A.   My name is Milomir Soja.

13        Q.   Mr. Soja, you testified in the trial against Dragomir Milosevic

14     on the 24th and 25th of April, 2007; is that correct?

15        A.   Correct.

16        Q.   Have you had an opportunity to review this testimony?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Can you affirm that the testimony accurately reflects the

19     evidence you provided to the Tribunal in 2007?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Mr. Soja, would you provide the same evidence to the Court if

22     questioned on the same matters here today?

23        A.   Yes.

24             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I would like to tender this

25     testimony as 65 ter 22611 for admission under Rule 92 ter.

Page 7204

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, it will be admitted.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1633, Your Honours.

 3             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  With the Court's permission, I would now

 4     read a brief summary of the witness's evidence as admitted.

 5             The witness is an electrical engineer.

 6             Before the outbreak of the war, Mr. Soja was employed by

 7     Energoinvest, in its power electronics department.  The witness was

 8     mobilised at the outbreak of the war in 1992.  After his release from the

 9     armed forces in December 1994, he took up his work obligation in the

10     company Energoinvest Automatika in Ilidza.

11             In the spring of 1995, Mr. Soja and one of his colleagues were

12     asked to go to the Pretis ammunition factory in Vogosca, Sarajevo,

13     regarding the modification of the ignition system for air-bomb launchers.

14     They were accompanied by an officer from the Ilidza Brigade of the VRS.

15             At Pretis, Mr. Soja met Major Krsmanovic, another officer of the

16     Sarajevo Romanija Corps.  From Krsmanovic, the witness heard that at that

17     time, in addition to the launcher of the Ilidza Brigade, there were two

18     functional air-bomb launchers, one in Vogosca and the other in Ilijas.

19     Mr. Soja subsequently learned that the Sarajevo Romanija Corps also had

20     an air-bomb launcher in Blazuj.

21             Major Krsmanovic was opposed to the modification of the

22     launchers, since this would have rendered the equipment less reliable.

23             However, the witness was asked to perform modifications using

24     electronic components as the Ilidza Brigade intended to use this new

25     system on their air-bomb launcher.

Page 7205

 1             The manufacturing of the new ignition system lasted until early

 2     summer 1995.  On several occasions, the witness had to attend to a

 3     malfunctioning air-bomb launcher.  In the summer of 1995, the witness was

 4     requested to attend the launching of an air-bomb targeting the cold

 5     storage plant in Stup from a launcher positioned under the overpass of

 6     Kasindolska Street, close to the witness's work-place.  From this cold

 7     storage plant, the Bosnian government forces used to fire with small arms

 8     into VRS-controlled territory.

 9             The first attempted launch failed.  That same evening, the

10     witness observed the launch of the air-bomb from a distance of about 150

11     metres.  The air-bomb did not reach the cold storage plant, but exploded

12     prematurely on territory under the control of the VRS.  During the

13     relevant time, Mr. Soja heard the launching and detonation of the

14     air-bombs about five to six times.  There is a characteristic sound

15     connected with the launching and detonation of air-bombs.

16             Your Honour, this concludes the summary, and I have no further

17     questions and I have also no associated exhibits to tender.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

19             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Soja.

24        A.   Good morning.

25        Q.   I would like to thank you about meeting the Defence, and I

Page 7206

 1     believe that that fact will speed the cross-examination along.

 2             I would like to start with those things that we agreed about

 3     during our interview, and those are the things -- or, rather, questions

 4     to which you can answer with either yes or no.  I'm going to word my

 5     questions in that way.

 6             The first question:  Did we agree that you are familiar with

 7     Ilidza because that's where you grew up?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Do you agree that the settlements predominantly settled with

10     Serbs were under the Serb control, and Muslim settlements were under the

11     Muslim control?  Let's not mention Hrasnica, Butmir, and

12     Sokolovic Kolonija that were close to the Serbian settlements.

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Is it true that you - and you said it here - left Grbavica to go

15     home to Osijek, a neighbourhood of Ilidza, at the moment when the

16     tensions started rising and when the shooting started?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   There is not as much as you can say about Grbavica as you can say

19     about Ilidza; right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   In your interview on 24 July 2004, you stated that there was no

22     military organisation in Osijek.

23        A.   No, at the beginning of the war, there was no militarisation

24     there.

25        Q.   You arrived in your village, therefore, and the local population

Page 7207

 1     had already started holding arms close to their homes in order to prevent

 2     attacks from the neighbouring Muslim villages; is that right?

 3        A.   Yes, it is.

 4        Q.   You said that the villagers guarded the village in shifts, and

 5     when your turn came, you also held guard.

 6        A.   Yes, that's true, but at the beginning it was only during the

 7     night.

 8        Q.   You said that there were no line-ups, that there was no command

 9     of any kind there; it was a spontaneous organisation based on the fear of

10     something that might happen to the village.

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   You helped me a lot, because I had already promoted general

13     chaos, and you introduced another helper of his, and that's fear.  Until

14     mid-July, in your village and in Ilidza, were all your actions dictated

15     by fear from the other side?

16        A.   I can't tell you how long that lasted, whether that lasted until

17     mid-June, and whether that was when certain elements of military

18     organisations were first introduced.  But, in any case, for the best part

19     of that initial period, in my opinion, or at least that was my feeling,

20     was predominantly fueled by fear and uncertainty.

21        Q.   Do you agree that the Serbs were not prepared because they had

22     relied on the state and the JNA to help them and to keep the enemy at

23     bay?

24        A.   Well, I can speak on my behalf, and I can tell you that I was

25     taken absolutely by surprise, and people that I spoke to felt the same.

Page 7208

 1     I can't speak in general terms.  I can only tell you what I know and what

 2     I felt.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             The word in the transcript is "the enemy," and I said "the other

 5     side."  I didn't mean the enemy, but never mind.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Is it true, what you said, that the guards service and later on

 8     the front-line were only about 50 metres away from the houses, from the

 9     settlement?

10        A.   In my case in Osijek, where I resided and where I spent the first

11     few months of the war, that was correct.  The front-lines were not

12     military lines at all.  We simply held guard close to the banks of the

13     river that surrounded our village, and the same was true throughout the

14     war of Ilidza, which throughout the war remained either on the front-line

15     or very close to it.

16        Q.   Did we also agree that in Ilidza, itself, there were no Muslim

17     settlements that would be under the Serb control?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   You also stated that the Serbs guarded the Osijek Muslims, that

20     they visited them, and that they encouraged them and promised them that

21     nobody would do them any harm, but they also expressed their fear that

22     some rogue elements or renegade elements might do them harm.

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Is it true that that's why some Muslims left Osijek and exchanged

25     their property, and is it also true that the others stayed on and were

Page 7209

 1     treated fairly by the authorities and by their Serb neighbours?

 2        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 3        Q.   Before the war, you were a reservist of the JNA, and like all the

 4     other reservists, you brought the reserve uniform home, but you did not

 5     bear any arms because your specialty was a multiple rocket-launcher.

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Did the Muslim and Serb reservists take uniforms and weapons home

 8     in peacetime when they had attended manoeuvres, and they took uniforms

 9     home and light infantry weapons as well?

10        A.   I am sure that that was the case with the uniform.  I, myself,

11     did not take weapons home.

12        Q.   What about gas masks?

13        A.   Yes, the same.

14        Q.   Anything else, in terms of the equipment; the shovels or

15     anything?

16        A.   I'm not sure about shovels.  There was a duffle bag with a

17     uniform, a gas mask, eating utensils, the basic military utensils,

18     without weapons.

19        Q.   When you say that people of Osijek organised themselves, and they

20     had mortars that they positioned on the hilltops around Osijek?

21        A.   I'm not sure that mortars existed before the first troops were

22     organised.  I can't tell you even the date when the whole thing grew into

23     a military organisation.  It more or less coincided with the first

24     so-called attacks against Ilidza.  I don't know when the first mortars

25     appeared.  I can't tell you.

Page 7210

 1        Q.   Do you agree that every local commune, including yours, had

 2     Territorial Defence which was organised in accordance with the law, and

 3     the Territorial Defence had its weapons?

 4        A.   Certainly.  Each company and each local commune, according to the

 5     law, had its unit of Territorial Defence, and I suppose that the unit

 6     also had to have some kind of weapons.

 7        Q.   Were there any weapons that the factories and big companies had?

 8     And in addition to Territorial Defence units, did they also have weapons

 9     depots?

10        A.   I suppose they did.  I never saw them.  But these units must have

11     existed, so I suppose that there had to have been appropriate weapons as

12     well.

13        Q.   Thank you.  You were personally a member of a delegation which

14     toured the Osijek Muslims to try to relax them and to ease the tensions;

15     is that correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   The authorities did not exert any pressure against the Osijek

18     Muslims; correct?

19        A.   As far as I know, they did not, never.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now please have a look at

21     a map.  Mr. Soja could explain for us more easily, by referring to the

22     map, a specific incident between Energoinvest and the cold storage plant.

23     It should be best, the following section of the map.  The ERN number is

24     0557-3368, section 9 of this map.  It's a map of Sarajevo in which

25     separation lines are also marked.

Page 7211

 1             JUDGE KWON:  I think the 65 ter number is 09390C.  And what page

 2     is it?  09390C; correct?  Yes, I see the nodding of Mr. Reid.  Thank you.

 3             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, it should actually be sheet 10,

 4     where we see an industrial complex, if that's the map that Mr. Karadzic

 5     would like to use.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Sheet 9 or sheet 10?

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Sheet 10 is fine as well.  If we

 8     can zoom in around the part of the city close to the TV, because Mr. Soja

 9     is familiar with this part of the city, and, allegedly, what was used

10     there were the modified bombs.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Mr. Soja, can you recognise here the building of the TV station?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Could you please mark it on this map.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Soja, could you wait a minute.  Our usher will

16     help you.

17             THE WITNESS:  [Marks].  That is the TV station building.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19        Q.   Is it correct that across the road from this building is the

20     Geodetic Institute?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Can you please mark it by a smaller circle.

23        A.   [Marks]

24        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please put number 1 next to the TV station

25     building and number 2 next to the land survey building.

Page 7212

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2        Q.   Can you now please encircle the big factory Vaso Miskin Crni?

 3        A.   Yes, I can.  I think that this is approximately here [marks].

 4        Q.   Can you please mark it with number 3?

 5        A.   Yes.  [Marks]

 6        Q.   Can you show us where Energoinvest was located?

 7        A.   Well, Vaso Miskin Crni is practically a part of Energoinvest, but

 8     there were some other factories that were part of the Energoinvest and

 9     they were located approximately here [marks].

10        Q.   Thank you.  Would you agree that to the west of this was the

11     distribution centre and some other plants of the Energoinvest?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please encircle this section as well?

14        A.   Yes, I can.  It's roughly around here [marks].

15        Q.   Thank you.  Would you agree that there are no residential

16     buildings in this area?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Do you remember that to the right, that is to say to the east of

19     the TV station building, is Astra and then Uniklima and some other

20     industrial plants?

21        A.   I remember that there were some other plants, and a few days ago

22     I could recall, by looking at an appropriate map, that that was how they

23     were called.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please write the date and sign this map.

25             I now wish to present a photograph of this area so that all the

Page 7213

 1     participants could see how this area where two modified bombs landed

 2     looked like.

 3        A.   Do you mean this map, where I already marked the circles?

 4        Q.   If you could just write the date and your initials, please.

 5        A.   Can you just remind me?  What is today's date?

 6        Q.   The 30th of September.

 7        A.   [Marks]

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have it admitted, please?

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D674.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now I wish to show a photograph of

13     this, and then we could look at section 9 of this very same document.

14             But now can we please see 21214, 65 ter 21214.  65 ter 21214.

15             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  According to the Prosecution note, this is

16     the correct 65 ter number.  It's a photo.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, now we can see this photo.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   I will ask you to mark on this photo, first of all, the TV

20     station building.

21        A.   Yes.  [Marks].  This is the TV station building.

22        Q.   Can you please mark it with number 1.

23        A.   [Marks]

24        Q.   Yes, just like that.  Thank you.  And can you now please mark the

25     Land Survey Institute.

Page 7214

 1        A.   The Land Survey Institute [marks].

 2        Q.   And the police station, close to the Land Survey Institute, can

 3     you mark it as well?

 4        A.   I'm not sure where exactly was the police station, to the right

 5     or to the left.  To be honest, I don't really remember.  Maybe what is at

 6     the lower left-hand corner, which I marked -- I think it was part of the

 7     trolley bus plant of Astra.

 8        Q.   Can you now please mark to the right Astra and Igman.

 9        A.   It's approximately around here [marks].

10        Q.   Can you now please mark the Vaso Miskin Crni.

11        A.   Here [marks].

12        Q.   So number 2 is the Land Survey Institute, number 3 is Uniklima,

13     Astra and Igman, and number 4 is Vaso Miskin Crni, but you didn't include

14     all of it.

15        A.   Well, that was it, more or less.  There were various factories

16     there.  I'm not sure what were all the buildings that belonged to the

17     Vaso Miskin complex.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Can you now please draw a circle from the left to the

19     right by which you would mark the borders of the entire industrial

20     complex.

21        A.   Well, it would be approximately around here [marks].

22        Q.   Thank you.  There, as we can see, are no residential buildings;

23     correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Would you agree that parallel to the upper line there was a

Page 7215

 1     former Drinska Street which is now called Safeta Zajke?

 2        A.   I agree that there's a street there, but I didn't know what it

 3     was called nor what it is called now, but I suppose that those names are

 4     correct.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please write the date and your initials on

 6     this photo.

 7        A.   Yes.  [Marks]

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             Could we now please see section 9 of the previous document.

10             JUDGE KWON:  This will be admitted as Exhibit D675.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             From the previous document, just section 9.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Before it appears on the screen, Mr. Soja, we can perhaps go

15     through what we agreed about during the interview, and we did it easily.

16             Is it correct that for a long time, Otes was in the hands of the

17     Muslim Army and that it -- from it, they shot at and attacked the Serbian

18     part of Ilidza?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   You also agreed, as somebody who had served the army, that taking

21     control of Otes was motivated by military logic; correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   We also agreed that Serbs were in the Energoinvest complex and

24     the Muslims in the cold storage plant complex.

25        A.   Yes.

Page 7216

 1        Q.   Did we also agree -- this is not section 9.  Or maybe it is, but

 2     we just need one.

 3             Did we agree that the cold storage plant was full of troops and

 4     that it was used as a firing position and also as a military materiel

 5     depot?

 6        A.   I'm not sure if it was full of troops and if it was used as a

 7     military warehouse, but it's certain that fire was opened against Ilidza

 8     from it.  So certainly there were troops inside occasionally.  But

 9     whether it was also used as a warehouse or not, I wouldn't know.

10        Q.   Thank you.  In order to receive a document about that, I will ask

11     you something else first.

12             We can see the separation line here.  Can I please ask you to

13     encircle the Energoinvest complex and the cold storage plant complex.

14        A.   What is already encircled here -- oops, I'm sorry.  [Marks].

15     What is already encircled here is the Energoinvest complex.

16        Q.   Can you please mark it with the letter E.

17        A.   Yes, I can.  [Marks]

18        Q.   Can you now please encircle the cold storage plant.

19        A.   Yes, I can.  [Marks].  This is approximately the cold storage

20     plant.

21        Q.   Can you mark it with the letter H for "Hladnjaca"?

22        A.   [Marks].

23        Q.   Where was the Market Street?  Can you mark it, because that's

24     where the separation line was.

25        A.   I can.  It is marked here already.  One can see it.  Should I

Page 7217

 1     encircle it or should I just indicate where it is?

 2        Q.   Maybe you can draw a line parallel to that street.

 3        A.   Well, this was the part of the Market Street, the Pijacna Street

 4     in B/C/S, which was parallel to the forward separation line [marks].

 5        Q.   Can you please mark it with the letters PU or PS to stand for

 6     "Pijacna Street"?

 7        A.   [Marks].

 8        Q.   Thank you.  You -- that is to say, the Army of Republika Srpska

 9     launched modified bombs from Energoinvest in the direction of Hladnjaca.

10     Was there any residential building in the space between these two

11     complexes?

12        A.   It did not shoot them from the location of Energoinvest, but from

13     the place across the street.  That was below Kasindolska Street, below

14     the overpass, but it is true that practically there were no residential

15     buildings in the area.

16        Q.   Thank you.  You have heard of at least one incident of testing

17     the precision of the modified bomb, and the testing took place in Zuca,

18     where there are also no residential buildings but just huge military

19     fortifications, both Muslim and Serbs ones; correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   You do not exclude the possibility that there were more testings,

22     but there was at least one?

23        A.   Yes, I have heard about one such testing.

24        Q.   Thank you.  You were called to improve the launching and to

25     improve the ignition in order to reinforce the ignition, and that was

Page 7218

 1     your duty; correct?

 2        A.   They called me from the company in which I was under work

 3     obligation at the time, and I was told that a launcher should be made in

 4     the Ilidza Brigade and that for the launcher we should try to make a

 5     modification, or an improvement or something - I don't remember the

 6     formulation precisely - of the ignition system.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  The Army of Republika Srpska, nor the OTP, asked you

 8     anything about the precision of the system of the rocket motors that

 9     existed, but just about igniting and activating these bombs; correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And during the interview a few days ago, did we agree that the

12     rocket motors were the regular motors for the Grad rockets, with

13     performances by which you could calculate the trajectory?

14        A.   When I was at the only meeting about the system, I was told, as

15     far as I remember, that these were rocket motors which are used for

16     anti-Hale rockets.  Whether these were really rocket motors from the

17     anti-Hale rockets or some other type of rocket motors is something that I

18     could not confirm.  What I can state as my opinion is certainly that

19     whatever kind of motors was used, it couldn't be improvised.  These had

20     to be some of the existing rocket motors which are used for some sort of

21     purpose.

22        Q.   Thank you.  And such motors, as a rule, have specific

23     performances and tables for targeting; correct?

24        A.   Well, I suppose they do.

25        Q.   In one of the statements, you mentioned that you had heard that

Page 7219

 1     one of those modified air bombs had been used against Visoko.  Was it

 2     used against civilian targets; did you know that or did you not know?

 3        A.   I did not have any information as to what was targeted.  I learnt

 4     it only by chance, because the launcher that we worked on had failed

 5     during the launching, and while we were trying to remove that, I was told

 6     that a bomb had been launched against Visoko, but I didn't know anything

 7     about the target.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that the Sarajevo Romanija Corps had

 9     about 60 to -- 40- to 60-kilometre-long front-line in the city and around

10     250 in Central Bosnia?

11        A.   I wouldn't be able to tell you about the kilometres, but the fact

12     is that the front-line was, indeed, very long.

13        Q.   Thank you.  In one of your statements, you stated that you had

14     never heard any of the modified bombs having been used against civilians.

15        A.   I didn't know anything about targets.  Where I moved about and

16     where I resided is a valley, so it was impossible to see where those

17     bombs and other bombs were falling.  You could hear detonations coming

18     from certain directions, but I didn't have any information about possible

19     targets.

20        Q.   Thank you.  We also mentioned Stupsko Brdo and Stupska Petlja?

21     Who controlled Stupsko Brdo and Stupska Petlja throughout the war?

22        A.   Either Muslims or Muslim and Croat forces together.  In any case,

23     it wasn't the Army of Republika Srpska.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             I apologise.  I have to wait for the transcript.  We speak the

Page 7220

 1     same language, and our interpreters are experiencing problems with the

 2     two of us.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  In the meantime, could you kindly put the date and

 4     your signature on this map, and we'll keep it.

 5             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

 6             JUDGE KWON:  That will be D676.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   We agreed that due to the sanctions in 1995, when those bombs

 9     were modified and sanctions were imposed on Yugoslavia and Serbia by the

10     entire world, there was a shortage of ammunition and other equipment in

11     the VRS.

12        A.   Yes, that's what I heard, and I believe that it was, indeed, the

13     case.

14        Q.   In one of your statements, you were asked about

15     Vlasi [phoen] Vidovic, whom you didn't know, but you were familiar with

16     his nickname, Vaske.  So you didn't know him under his name?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And you said that it was a very unconventional [as interpreted]

19     unit in Ilijas.

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And you also said, on cross-examination in the General Milosevic

22     case on 25 April 2007, that you had never heard of any crimes that he may

23     have committed.

24        A.   No, I didn't hear of any crimes that he had committed.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In the transcript, it says "very

Page 7221

 1     unconventional," and I said "one unconventional unit."  I just want to

 2     make those slight corrections for the transcript.

 3             I would like to call up a document, 1D2431.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   You will help us with this.  This is a document issued by the

 6     Muslim 102nd Motorised Brigade.  Do you agree that the area around the

 7     cold storage plant was under its control?

 8        A.   I don't know.  I don't know the name of the brigade.

 9        Q.   In any case, the Muslim Army was present there all the time?

10        A.   Yes.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D2431.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   We will not read all of it; just the parts that have been

14     translated.  I'm going to read for you.

15             The Command of the 102nd Motorised Brigade, strictly

16     confidential, 9th of November, 1993:

17             "On the basis of the need, and in an effort to do as good and

18     effective work and safety of persons that are residing in the cold

19     storage plant, the 1st Motorised Battalion, the 2nd Motorised Battalion,

20     Light Artillery Rocket Battalion of the Anti-Aircraft Defence, and in an

21     effort to establish functionality of this facility for carrying out

22     combat actions, I hereby order ..."

23             And there are ten items on the first page and they are all

24     relative to the modification of the cold storage plant so that it could

25     be used in combat.

Page 7222

 1             Does this sound convincing?  Does this document sound convincing?

 2        A.   Please allow me to read everything.

 3             It does sound convincing.

 4        Q.   Is there another cold storage plant in the area or is this the

 5     only one?

 6        A.   This is the only one.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             Could I tender this document into evidence, please?

 9             JUDGE KWON:  We'll mark it for identification, pending full

10     translation of this document.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D677, Your Honours, MFI.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D2391 is the next document I would

13     like to call up.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   I would like to draw your attention to the heading, where it says

16     "The Command of the 102nd Motorised Brigade."  800 hours, the 1st of

17     February, 1994, and this is an order for the usage of artillery in

18     defence, the section of the map, and so on and so forth, the general area

19     of Stup.

20             Is Stup the place where both Energoinvest and the cold storage

21     plant were located?

22        A.   Yes, approximately, although I would say that the cold storage

23     plant also occupies one part of Azici, although it was always popularly

24     known as the cold storage plant in Stup.  And Energoinvest was also known

25     as a facility in Stup.

Page 7223

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             I have to be mindful of the interpreters.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Under item 1, it says:

 5             "The enemy --" which means the Serbs in this case; right?

 6        A.   Right.

 7        Q.   "In previous combat actions, the enemy has gained control over

 8     the wider area of Doglodi village, Otes, Kasindolska Street, Nedzarici

 9     village, and they have reached the following line:  The Miljacka River by

10     the Spajic farm, the Elektro-shop, the Vidic house, the Market Street,

11     the Dobrinja River, the flower shop, the Nedzarici Barracks, the red

12     house, the Nedzarici Elementary school, and they have organised their

13     defence with an intention to continue combat activities."

14             Under 2, it says:

15             "The 102nd Motorised Brigade is organising decisive defence in

16     the area of Sentrotrans, including the old pensioners' home, the Zora

17     factory and Sipad ..."

18             And so on and so forth.  Further down, it says:

19             "Observation point 01 at the cold storage plant and

20     observation point 2 is taken by the Mixed Artillery Battalion.  The

21     command post in the Halilovic sector, the Magros facility."

22             Can we please move on to the following page in the Serbian

23     language.

24             Under 5, let's not read everything, but it says:

25             "The anti-armour fight focused on the axis:  Azici-Stup, Pijacna

Page 7224

 1     Street, the cold storage plant, Kasindolska Street --"

 2             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, can we also have the -- yes.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, you can read them later on.  Just put

 4     your question, Mr. Karadzic.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   This deployment of forces, is that what you were familiar with,

 7     and does this speak about continuous urban fighting in this part of

 8     Ilidza, Mr. Soja?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Do you agree that on the Muslim side, there was artillery, there

11     were anti-armour tools, and that the cold storage plant is in the center

12     of all those combat activities?

13        A.   Yes.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let's not go on reading.  Everybody

15     can read for themselves.

16             Can this document be admitted?

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

18             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  As with the previous document, the accused

19     just uses the term "the storage plant," that's mentioned in here,

20     although -- and it has nothing to do with the evidence of the witness.

21     This first -- this last document that was marked for identification is

22     from 1993.  It is a document from the Muslim forces.  And here in this

23     here is again a document from the Muslim forces from 1994 that has

24     nothing to do with the evidence of the witness.  I don't -- I object to

25     that to be admitted just on the fact that the witness is familiar, in

Page 7225

 1     general terms, with the region.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Is the accused not entitled to put questions about

 3     his case to the witness, who is familiar with the case?

 4             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, of course, Your Honour, but I just

 5     object against admitting of the document.  That was my observation.

 6     There is no foundation for admitting this document.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I respond, Your Honours?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness testifies about the

10     attempts of destruction of the cold storage plant in 1995.  However, the

11     pretext or the cause for that action was permanent fighting from the very

12     outset of the war.  During all this time, the cold storage plant was in

13     the center of all the events.  And the witness knows very well the line

14     never moved in that area, that the Muslims were in the cold storage plant

15     all the time, and there was shooting coming from the cold storage plant

16     all the time.  And this document shows what the witness knows already;

17     that the fire coming from the cold storage plant came from the

18     anti-armour pieces, from infantry weapons, and that it was a focal point

19     of combat throughout the war.

20             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

22             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  There is no doubt that the cold storage

23     plant was used for military purposes.  But this document is actually

24     about fighting in other areas as well, and the witness has not provided

25     any knowledge of fighting in certain areas that are mentioned here.  He's

Page 7226

 1     concerned with the cold storage plant and not all these other areas.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I respond again?

 3             One witness was here and said that Stup was controlled by the

 4     Serbs, and this witness knows that the situation was just the contrary,

 5     it was under the Muslim control, and Stupsko Brdo and Stupska Petlja were

 6     always under the Muslim control.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE KWON:  We do not think the Prosecution is challenging the

 9     authenticity of this document, and the witness was able to confirm the

10     part of this document, which is of only three pages.  We don't think

11     there's any problem in admitting this.

12             This will be admitted.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D678, Your Honours.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

15             1D2340 [as interpreted] is the next document I would like to call

16     up.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Is it not 243 --

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 2430.  That's not the document.

19     1D2430, another document issued by the 102nd Muslim Brigade.

20             Yes, that's the document.  We're not going to read all of it.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   I would like to show you, Mr. Soja, and you can very well see it

23     next to the number 30/2, the enemy is grouped in Doglodi, Kasindolska,

24     Nedzarici, and the enemy has engaged troops to hold the lines.  Do you

25     agree with their estimate, that the Serbs had to engage senior troops to

Page 7227

 1     man the line?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Was it due to the fact that the Muslim side over-powered the

 4     Serbs, in terms of the number of soldiers?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we move on to the following

 7     page, item 3.  I believe that we can stay on the same page in English.

 8     Or, rather, we need item 4, I decided.  Can we move on to the following

 9     page in English as well, the part that begins:  "I decided ..."  I don't

10     know if there's a translation in English.  It says:  "I decided ..."

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Can you follow, sir:

13             "I decided to organise a decisive defence in the area of

14     responsibility at the present positions with the focus being on the axis:

15     Ilidza, Kasindolska Street, Nedzarici, [indiscernible], the cold storage

16     plant, the Stupska Petlja ..."

17             And so on and so forth.

18             Is it true that the lines were very close to each other

19     throughout the war in that area?

20        A.   Yes.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We do not have the English

22     translation of all the items.  We just have some of them translated.

23             Could we please see, after this, two pages on, the fourth page of

24     the document.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 7228

 1        Q.   And here, on top of the page, it says:

 2             "Stup-Energoinvest, Stup-Otes, Stup-Doglodi, Azici, attack the

 3     enemy personnel, combat equipment and facilities."

 4             So they are ordering here that fire should be opened on the

 5     Serbian side, the troops, the combat equipment and facilities.  Then they

 6     have artillery brigade observation post MPOAD [phoen], and they will

 7     place one on the cold storage plant, another one on the Brijesko Brdo,

 8     and so on.

 9             It's a document very similar to the previous one, and would you

10     agree that, so to speak, there was not a single day in the area without

11     any exchange of fire, and there were frequent actions and fighting which

12     follow from such an order as this one?

13        A.   There were very frequent exchanges of fire and combat of lower

14     and higher intensity.  It's difficult to say whether it was every day,

15     but one can certainly say that the line was never quiet.

16        Q.   In a word, in your mind and the mind of all people living there,

17     the cold storage plant was hardly an economic facility, but it was rather

18     a military facility; right?

19        A.   Yes.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please have this admitted,

21     or, rather, marked for identification, because the entire document has

22     not been translated.

23             JUDGE KWON:  The Prosecution has already agreed to the fact that

24     the cold plant was a military facility.  Then there's no point of further

25     examination on that point.

Page 7229

 1             We'll mark this for identification, pending full translation.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D679, Your Honours.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             I think that I may as well conclude my cross-examination, and I

 5     thank Mr. Soja for meeting the Defence and for coming here to testify.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, do you have any re-exam?

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise.  Just one additional

 8     question just to clarify.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   After the cold storage plant was unsuccessfully targeted, the

11     system on which you worked in connection with the cold storage plant was

12     abandoned because there was no success with targeting the cold storage

13     plant?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And the last question:  You said in some statements that the AID

16     didn't treat you quite decently; that they did not beat you, but that you

17     were afraid, and eventually they brought you in contact with the OTP?

18        A.   They conducted themselves rather professionally, but they did

19     threaten me.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             I have concluded my cross-examination.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

23             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I have just a few minutes of

24     redirect, addressing two points that Dr. Karadzic spoke about with the

25     witness.

Page 7230

 1                           Re-examination by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

 2        Q.   The first point is the Muslims living in your settlement in

 3     Osijek.  You confirmed that they left your settlement.  Were they

 4     threatened, or why did they leave?

 5        A.   In the place where I resided at the very beginning of the war,

 6     there were not many Muslim-populated houses, not many Muslim residents

 7     who resided there permanently.  Some of them spent the entire war in

 8     Osijek, and I believe that in two instances they temporarily exchanged

 9     houses with somebody else.  They moved closer to Sarajevo, and they

10     swapped houses with some Serbs who had come from Sarajevo.  In one of

11     these cases, I know that there were some tensions, that I suppose their

12     neighbours placed some hate phone calls.  That was at the very outbreak

13     of the war.  And I was a member of the - let me call it - delegation of

14     people who went to talk to them, and our joint conclusion was that this

15     could be a solution, to swap houses temporarily, and that that would be

16     the best solution possibly, because one could already see that this would

17     turn into a serious conflict, that there would certainly be victims, and

18     that later on it would be very difficult to guarantee safety to anyone.

19        Q.   And the other question I have relates to your own whereabouts

20     during the conflict.

21             Did you participate in fighting in Otes or other places that

22     Dr. Karadzic put to you and that were addressed in the documents?

23        A.   Well, I practically did not directly participate in any of the

24     fighting.  It was just incidentally, and on the first day of the fighting

25     around Otes I was re-deployed to the barracks in the rear, in Butile, and

Page 7231

 1     later on I was in Doglodi, but I turned up there after the main combat

 2     had already been concluded.  There were sporadic exchanges of fire and

 3     shoot-outs, but I wouldn't really call it actual fighting, because I

 4     never saw a single soldier of the opposing side.

 5        Q.   Would you know about the planning of attacks or counter-attacks?

 6        A.   I didn't know anything about military matters.  But, of course,

 7     as all people from my area who were members of my unit took part in the

 8     fighting, they knew that something would be going on in the area, so I

 9     had some, let me call it, unofficial information which I learned from my

10     neighbours and colleagues and friends that something would be taking

11     place there.

12             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, this concludes my redirect.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

14             Mr. Soja, that concludes your evidence.  On behalf of the

15     Tribunal and the Bench, I would like to thank you for your coming all the

16     way from your place to give it.  Now you are free to go.

17                           [The witness withdrew]

18             JUDGE KWON:  We'll go into private session briefly.

19                           [Private session]

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 7232

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11                           [Open session]

12             JUDGE KWON:  So the hearing is now adjourned until Tuesday, when

13     we will have a hearing in the afternoon at 2.15.

14                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 10.20 a.m.,

15                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 5th day of

16                           October, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.