Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8875

 1                           Wednesday, 3 November 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.22 p.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good afternoon, everyone.

 7             Before we go into anything, shall we go into private session

 8     first.  There's one matter I'd like to deal with in the private session.

 9                           [Private session]

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Page 8876











11  Page 8876 redacted. Private session.















Page 8877

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10                           [Open session]

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we are now in open session.

12             Mr. Tieger, you wanted to address the Chamber.

13             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Mr. President.  Thank you very much.

14             I wanted to advise the Chamber that one of the witnesses affected

15     by yesterday's decision, KDZ477, was scheduled for next week.  We will

16     attempt to substitute, at least during the course of next week, not

17     necessarily in the same precise time-frame, Witness KDZ244.  I wanted to

18     alert the Defence and the Chamber to that effort.  And we'll, of course,

19     alert the Court if there are any scheduling difficulties in that regard.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Is 477 a protected witness?

21             MR. TIEGER:  I was trying to recall.  Yes, that's correct.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to say thank you for

24     these documents.  They are not corps documents, they are police

25     documents, so we'll probably have them all.

Page 8878

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

 2             There may be one matter I will raise at the end of today's

 3     session that may affect the future witness scheduling.  We'll see.

 4             If the witness would kindly take the solemn declaration.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 6     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 7                           WITNESS:  KDZ485

 8                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Please make yourself comfortable.

10             Mr. Hayden.

11             MR. HAYDEN:  Thank you, Mr. President.

12             Good afternoon, Your Honours; good afternoon, Mr. Witness.

13             Mr. Registrar, 65 ter 90201, please, and this should not be

14     broadcast.

15                           Examination by Mr. Hayden:

16        Q.   Mr. Witness, without reading it out, can you confirm that that is

17     your name on the screen in front of you?

18        A.   Yes.

19             MR. HAYDEN:  Can this, please, be admitted under seal?

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1903, under seal, Your Honours.

22             MR. HAYDEN:

23        Q.   Mr. Witness, as discussed, your evidence in this case is going to

24     be submitted in writing, so let me address the formalities associated

25     with that submission.

Page 8879

 1             Mr. Registrar, 65 ter 90200, please.  And, again, this should not

 2     be broadcast.

 3             Mr. Witness, you have previously provided statements to the

 4     Prosecution, and you have also testified in the cases of

 5     Dragomir Milosevic and Momcilo Perisic.  Now, looking at the screen in

 6     front of you, do you see your signature at the bottom of the page?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Did you have an opportunity to review this statement before

 9     appending your signature to it?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And does the document accurately reflect the evidence you have

12     previously given the Tribunal?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Finally, if you were examined on the same topics today, would you

15     provide the same information to the Court?

16        A.   Yes, I would.

17             MR. HAYDEN:  I request the admission of this statement, under

18     seal.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Are you minded to produce a public version with

20     redaction?

21             MR. HAYDEN:  Yes, Mr. President.  In keeping with our previous

22     practice, we shall provide a public version.

23             JUDGE KWON:  We'll give them a number.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 65 ter 90200 will be Exhibit P1904

25     under seal, and the public redacted version will be Exhibit P1905.

Page 8880

 1             MR. HAYDEN:  The following is a summary of the evidence contained

 2     in that statement:

 3             Witness 485 worked as a homicide inspector for the Sarajevo

 4     Security Services from around April 1994 until the end of the conflict.

 5     In this role, he participated in the investigation of shelling and

 6     sniping incidents.  He attended so many incidents of shelling and sniping

 7     that he cannot remember how many he investigated.

 8             His role in the on-site investigation team was to ensure that the

 9     crime scene was secured and that each team member, which included

10     forensic technicians and ballistic experts, executed their role.  And

11     observations and information obtained during this preliminary

12     investigation were included in an official report.

13             Among other investigations, the witness investigated four

14     scheduled incidents:  Incident F-11, the firing on a passenger tram on

15     8 October 1994; Incident G9, the shelling of Bascarsija Flea Market on

16     22nd December 1994; G-13, the use of a modified air-bomb in

17     Safeta Hadzica Street on 26 May 1994; and G-19, the shelling of

18     Markale Market on 28 August 1995.  In each instance, the on-site

19     investigation identified the origin of the fire as Bosnian Serb-held

20     territory.

21             And that concludes the summary.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Hayden.

23             MR. HAYDEN:  I now have some additional questions for the

24     witness.

25             Turning, firstly, to Scheduled Incident F-11, and if I could have

Page 8881

 1     65 ter 09673, please.  Once again, this document should not be broadcast.

 2        Q.   Mr. Witness, this is a report dated 10th of October, 1994, and it

 3     concerns the firing on a tram on the 8th of October, 1994.  Without

 4     reading it out, does your name appear as one of the participants in the

 5     investigation?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             MR. HAYDEN:  And if we can turn to page 2 of the English, leaving

 8     the B/C/S where it is.

 9        Q.   At the bottom of both versions, it states that:

10             "Four entry holes were made by bullets.  This was most probably

11     caused by the so-called 'Sijac Smrti,'" which is here translated as a

12     "Death Sower."

13             Mr. Witness, what type of weapon, to your knowledge, was known as

14     a "Death Sower?"

15        A.   What I know, although I am not an expert in fire-arms, it's a

16     submachine-gun that fired rounds at very high velocity, and I heard

17     people saying that anyone who found themselves in the cross-hairs of such

18     a weapon was unable to run away quickly enough because the gun fired so

19     quickly, and that's why it got the nickname "Death Sower."

20             MR. HAYDEN:  Can this document please be admitted under seal.

21     Again, the Prosecution is minded to also provide public redacted versions

22     of each of these associated exhibits in due course.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Hayden.

24             That will be admitted.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1906 under seal, and the public

Page 8882

 1     redacted version will be Exhibit P1907.

 2             MR. HAYDEN:  65 ter 09906, please, Mr. Registrar, and turning to

 3     Scheduled Incident G-19.

 4        Q.   Mr. Witness, had you ever visited the Markale Market area prior

 5     to or during the month of August 1995?

 6        A.   Yes.  I went to that part of Sarajevo and the market before the

 7     war and after the war.

 8        Q.   Can you describe briefly what you observed at the Markale Market

 9     or the area of the Markale Market on any typical day?

10        A.   It's a market-place where people buy and sell all sorts of

11     products, including meat and dairy products.  One part of the market is

12     closed, and the other part is in the open air.  What you could observe at

13     any time before the war, during the war, and after the war was that many

14     civilians gathered and concentrated in that and similar places because

15     they needed to buy things for their own needs.

16        Q.   And do these observations include the alleyways around

17     Markale Market, itself?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Mr. Witness, you participated in the investigation of the

20     shelling of Markale Market on 28 August 1995, and you wrote the report

21     that we see in front of us.  That report states that your team arrived on

22     the scene at 12.15 p.m., approximately one and a quarter hours after the

23     explosion.  Can you briefly describe what you found, arriving on the

24     scene?

25        A.   I'm trying to find that passage, because I can't see the

Page 8883

 1     beginning of the report on the screen.

 2             MR. HAYDEN:  If we might move to page 2 of the B/C/S, please.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From what I see in this report, it

 4     is correct that we arrived at 1215 hours.  And my first impression, my

 5     first observation, was that officers from the local Police Administration

 6     had sealed off the site, meaning that they closed access to the very spot

 7     hit by the projectile, and they closed all the alleyways leading to the

 8     site.  And when we arrived to one of those main streets -- to the

 9     main street, which is one of the main streets in Sarajevo, you could see

10     a lot of personal items scattered around, items that had belonged to the

11     casualties, shards of glass, fragments on the surrounding buildings, but

12     it was immediately obvious that there were no bodies of anyone killed or

13     anyone wounded.  That is what I was able to see at the first moment.

14        Q.   You mentioned that there were no bodies of killed or wounded.

15     Was this typical when you arrived on the scene of a shelling or sniping

16     incident you investigated?

17        A.   Yes.  In most cases where I did the on-site investigation, that

18     was the rule.  We usually did not find any of the casualties still lying

19     there.

20        Q.   And in your view, why was it that both the wounded as well as the

21     deceased bodies were moved from these scenes almost immediately after the

22     incident?

23        A.   Well, surviving eye-witnesses or anyone who happened to be there

24     at the time of the explosion, without even checking whether any of the

25     people lying there were still alive or not, rushed to move them, by any

Page 8884

 1     transport vehicle available, to the hospital, probably also because there

 2     was rarely a doctor around who would carry out the triage, to see who was

 3     dead, who was seriously wounded, or who was lightly wounded, or who would

 4     be able to assign any priorities in transporting people to the hospital.

 5     Even when the ambulance arrived, the physician and the paramedics who

 6     came with the ambulance were able to take perhaps one person to the

 7     hospital.  The rest was up to the passersby.  That's what I think, and

 8     that's what I also heard from other people while conducting my business.

 9     That's the main reason why casualties and the dead were taken away before

10     the on-site investigation team arrived.  And also the interval between

11     the explosion and our arrival was more than one hour.  I don't think that

12     even the bodies of the dead, let alone those injured, should have been

13     left waiting for us.

14        Q.   Turning to page 2 of the English and page 3 of the B/C/S, at the

15     end of the report, Mr. Witness, it indicates that 35 persons were killed

16     and 78 wounded, and that lists of the victims and killed are attached to

17     the report.  Did you participate in the identification of these listed

18     persons?

19        A.   Yes, I did.  This is mainly data that we got then.  I don't know

20     if this is the final number of those killed, 35.  It's hard for me to

21     remember.  It's been a long time ago.  I don't remember if anyone who was

22     seriously wounded in the meantime died from sustained injuries in

23     hospital, but this is the initial data that we were able to get initially

24     at the medical institution; to be precise, in the two hospitals, the

25     State Hospital and the former Military Hospital.

Page 8885

 1        Q.   And when you went to these two hospitals and compiled this list,

 2     how could you tell that these persons were killed or wounded as a result

 3     of the explosion at Markale Market, as opposed to some other cause of

 4     death or injury?

 5        A.   Most of them had their identification documents with them, and we

 6     were able to establish their identity on the basis of their IDs that they

 7     had on them.  Another source of information were their relatives, closer

 8     or more distant relatives, who also provided information regarding those

 9     who were killed or wounded.  So these were sources for the identification

10     of those persons.  Naturally, we got some information also from the

11     medical personnel, who also got their information in the same way.  So it

12     was either us or together with the medical personnel who got this

13     information about the persons in the hospital.

14        Q.   You've identified how you were able to ID the bodies or the

15     wounded persons.  I'm also interested as to how you were able to link the

16     death or injury of these persons to the Markale Market explosion.  How

17     could you tell that they had been killed or wounded in that explosion?

18        A.   When we came to the hospital, we went to the place where the

19     wounded are admitted and we also went to the morgue.  At both those

20     places -- actually, in the morgue, we met the forensic experts, who told

21     us -- who confirmed for us that the persons that I listed here as killed

22     from the explosion -- said that all of them had blast injuries, injuries

23     from fragments of the explosive device.  Regardless of what this

24     forensics expert confirmed for us, we, ourselves -- I mean, I went to so

25     many investigations on-scene.  This also applied to the judge as well as

Page 8886

 1     those present from the United Nations.  We could all see that these were

 2     blast injuries, and they are definitely very different types of injuries

 3     from injuries caused by projectiles fired from a fire-arm.  So even I, as

 4     a layperson, was able to see that these were really people who were hurt

 5     in the explosion.

 6             MR. HAYDEN:  I tender the document in front of us as an exhibit

 7     under seal.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1908, under seal, Your Honours.  And

10     the public redacted version will be Exhibit P1909.

11             MR. HAYDEN:

12        Q.   Finally, Mr. Witness, aside from the incidents that I described

13     in your summary before, did the shelling incidents that you investigated

14     in 1994 and 1995 generally involve fatalities?

15        A.   For the most part, yes.  I belonged to the Homicide Department,

16     or murders, so this is what kind of investigations on-scene I and my

17     colleagues carried out.  We would go out to investigate on the scene when

18     a person was killed.

19        Q.   And did that include civilian fatalities?

20        A.   Regardless of what kind of a victim it was, what I did and what I

21     wrote about -- actually, my reports mostly had to deal with civilian

22     casualties.

23        Q.   And when you arrived to investigate a fatality, did you take

24     steps to determine whether there had been military activity in the area

25     immediately prior to the incident you were investigating?  And if so,

Page 8887

 1     what steps were those?

 2        A.   Before we would go to the scene, we would usually get in touch --

 3     actually, we would usually be informed by the local police, the police

 4     officers in the location, what the security situation was and if the

 5     conditions existed for us to go out there safely, arrive across town

 6     safely, and what the situation was at the scene.  The local police

 7     officers were our source for that kind of information, and, of course, we

 8     would gather information from them, if there was any kind of combat

 9     action underway at the point in time when the incident occurred for which

10     they were requesting an on-scene investigation.

11        Q.   And in your view, were the civilian fatalities that you

12     investigated generally the result of military exchanges, what is commonly

13     referred to as "collateral damage"?

14        A.   A large majority of the fatalities in the events that I

15     investigated were casualties that occurred outside of any type of

16     military activity.  When I say "military activity," I mean fighting

17     between the warring parties.  Usually -- I mean, Sarajevo is not a large

18     town, so if there was any fighting, people knew that very well.  They had

19     learned how to live in such conditions.  So whenever any kind of combat

20     action is sensed, very few or practically no civilians were out in the

21     streets or in places where they would be exposed to fire.  Therefore, in

22     those investigations that I took part in, these people were not

23     collateral damage; they were the actual victims.

24             MR. HAYDEN:  No further questions, Mr. President.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

Page 8888

 1             MR. HAYDEN:  At this stage, I tender the remaining associated

 2     exhibits.  I note that since filing the notification, none of the 65 ter

 3     numbers have become exhibits, so it's just those that were already listed

 4     with their exhibit number.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Of particular interest would be those investigation

 6     reports signed and authenticated by the witness.  There are four other

 7     reports:  9688, 9769, 9821, and 9921.  All that witness did in previous

 8     proceedings is that he authenticated them.  So in that regard, I have

 9     some question whether it would form an indispensable and inseparable part

10     of this transcript, but not as an indispensable and inseparable part of

11     this previous statement, but on the basis of the witness's answer given

12     today, that he would have given the same answers had he been examined

13     again, so we take it that he authenticated it today, so on that basis

14     I think we can admit them, unless they are objected to.

15             MR. ROBINSON:  No, Mr. President.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Any other objections?

17             So your intention is to produce all the investigation reports and

18     other exhibits, to produce a public version of them with proper

19     redaction?

20             MR. HAYDEN:  That's right, they should all be admitted under

21     seal, and we will produce a public version.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Okay.  With that understanding, they will be all

23     admitted, and the proper exhibit numbers will be circulated by the Court

24     Deputy.

25                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

Page 8889

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 2             Now, Mr. Karadzic.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             Good afternoon to everyone.

 5                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Good afternoon, Witness.

 8        A.   Good afternoon.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Just before you start your examination, I'd like to

10     remind you that whenever we are to discuss any information which may

11     reveal the witness's identity, we should go into private session.  Bear

12     that in mind, please.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  So far, it went well.

14             JUDGE KWON:  And whenever you may feel that any question and any

15     answers you may give may reveal your identity, please ask for the private

16     session, please, before you answer, Mr. Witness.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             I hope everything went well so far, and also we have half an hour

21     delay, so the witness need not be overly concerned.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   But, first of all, I would like to ask you, sir, why you are so

24     committed to the protective measures.

25        A.   I don't know how relevant that is.  I stated my reasons, they

Page 8890

 1     were accepted, so I really wouldn't like to explain why.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  You don't have to.

 3             If you'd like to discuss it, we should go into private session,

 4     first of all.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go into private session

 6     briefly, please.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Hayden.

 8             MR. HAYDEN:  Your Honour, I believe the Court has already ruled

 9     on this.  The representations have been made by the witness to the

10     Prosecution, and he's confirmed those representations today.  I'm not

11     sure there is any further information that will change the Chamber's

12     ruling.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE KWON:  We are in private session?  No.

15             The Chamber made it clear that the previous protective measures

16     would continue, but I take it Mr. Karadzic is not -- I take it that

17     Mr. Karadzic is not asking for the variation of protective measures, and

18     the Chamber is of the view he may be entitled to put some questions in

19     relation to those protective measures to test the credibility of the

20     witness.  But as a matter of practicality, I'm not sure whether there

21     would be many points on that.

22             If you would like to put some questions, we need to go into

23     private session.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, the Chamber's assessment of my

25     intentions or gauging of my intentions is absolutely correct.

Page 8891

 1             Can we go into private session?

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 3                           [Private session]

 4   (redacted)

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 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

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15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

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20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

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25   (redacted)

Page 8892











11  Pages 8892-8894 redacted. Private session.















Page 8895

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 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5                           [Open session]

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Thank you, Witness, for your contact with the Defence team and

 9     with me via videolink.  This helped us a little bit to go a little bit

10     faster through a number of circumstances, because we have a number of

11     incidents that are going to require a lot of time.

12             We agreed during the interview -- you informed us that you

13     carried out many investigations and that you did not keep records of

14     that, so that you don't know the number, but that there are records of

15     that in the MUP archives.  That's what you believe; is that correct?

16        A.   Yes, I said that I did not have a private diary, I didn't keep a

17     private diary, but I did write reports about what I did and where I went.

18     And in the same way that this Court and this OTP has records, in the same

19     way the records of my work should be in the police archives.

20        Q.   Thank you.  You said that the investigations were carried out

21     according to the provisions of the then enforced Law on Criminal

22     Procedure and Rules of Service, and that you only could find some,

23     perhaps, comments or something lacking in these reports because they were

24     done in wartime circumstances?

25        A.   It's correct that the investigations were carried out according

Page 8896

 1     to the laws and the Rules of Service at the time, and I said that if

 2     there are any errors or anything that is unclear in my reports, it's

 3     possible that this happened only because of the circumstances in which we

 4     were doing our work; the war conditions, primarily.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  How would that circumstance affect your reports?

 6        A.   Could you be more specific?  Which circumstance?  So far, it

 7     hasn't been said that an error had been found that I was not able to

 8     explain.  If you have something specific in mind, please tell me.

 9        Q.   Well, you said that the possibility of repeated fire on the site

10     resulted in hasty work, which might explain any deficiencies in

11     investigative actions?

12        A.   One of the reasons why an error could possibly occur -- I said

13     "possibly," but if you have a specific error in mind that needs to be

14     explained, or some deficiency in my report, please put it to me and I'll

15     try to explain.

16        Q.   How many times did it happen, Witness, that the crime scene was

17     hit again while the investigation was ongoing?

18             If I can help you, look at item 8 in your amalgamated statement,

19     where you say that:

20             "At times, it was a problem.  It was risky to perform our

21     procedures.  There was always a possibility for the location to be fired

22     at again."

23             How many times, out of the countless investigations you

24     conducted, did it happen that a location was hit again during

25     investigation?

Page 8897

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Witness, do you have your statement in front of

 2     you, or can you answer the question without having to see your statement?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can answer the question, and the

 4     answer is very brief.

 5             I said, even in the statement, that there was a possibility.  I

 6     didn't say it ever happened.  It didn't actually happen to us.  But why

 7     was there a possibility?  Because our chiefs told us that our radio

 8     traffic was susceptible to listening, to eavesdropping, and that the

 9     enemy might hear what we were doing and where.  So I didn't say that it

10     happened.  I said there was a possibility, and we were warned about that

11     possibility.  And we tried to finish our work in the open air as quickly

12     as possible.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14        Q.   But did those who fired the initial shell that was being

15     investigated have the possibility of seeing that an important team had

16     arrived, and since the MUP had arrived, the target could be profitable?

17     And how is it possible, then, that in hundreds of cases, it never

18     happened that they fired a shell again and thus killed people who could

19     have been a profitable target?

20        A.   I don't know whether I ever confirmed or said anywhere that I, as

21     a policeman, participated in any military activities.  Neither I nor my

22     colleagues from my department, or other departments of the criminal

23     investigation police, ever participated in military activities.  I only

24     said we used our own radio communications, and we were warned that our

25     radio traffic might be eavesdropped on, and that our location could be

Page 8898

 1     discovered at any time.

 2             Considering the circumstances prevailing in Sarajevo and how

 3     encircled it was, whether somebody was able to look at us, to observe us,

 4     or to listen to us, it's quite certain that it was a possibility, but I

 5     cannot positively answer whether somebody from their position was able to

 6     see us or establish visual contact well enough to see that we were the

 7     police, especially since I was always wearing civilian clothes, I had no

 8     police markings, and I said that I belonged to the part of the civilian

 9     police that worked in "Mufti."  Whether somebody could have watched us

10     while we were working, I really don't know and I can't give you a

11     positive answer.  That they were able to eavesdrop, they were.  Anyone

12     who knew the city and the streets in the city could have a very good idea

13     of where we were.

14        Q.   Please don't feel offended or defensive.

15             If somebody who fired already and knows where they fired - they

16     have the trig point - they can expect well that there will be a lot of

17     people concentrating there very soon.  Have you heard ever that a single

18     investigator got killed from such repeated fire?

19        A.   I said already that it never happened to me, personally, but we

20     had been warned about such a possibility.  I am not aware that any of my

21     colleagues died in precisely those circumstances, but I cannot say

22     positively that such things did not happen.  It's just that I'm not aware

23     of any.

24        Q.   Can I draw your attention to paragraph 10 in your statement,

25     where you say that the direction of fire was determined in cases of

Page 8899

 1     shelling, and you said in our interview that the distance could not be

 2     determined.

 3        A.   Not when we talked, no.  I did not say, when we talked, that the

 4     distance could not be determined.  Speaking about that, what I said was

 5     that the direction from which the projectile was fired was determined by

 6     the bomb squad team and ballistics team.  I wrote in my report whatever

 7     they told me on that subject.  I was not the person who determined the

 8     direction, or claimed that a projectile came from that location or

 9     another location, or that it was possible or impossible to determine it.

10     I just said that it was not part of my job.

11        Q.   All right.  But did they do their job according to procedure?

12        A.   Again, I don't think it's a good question for me.  I am not an

13     expert.  I don't know much about the methods they use, the aids they use,

14     the tables they use.  I don't know these things.  And I didn't interfere

15     much with their work, if I can put it that way.  For me, it was

16     sufficient that they give me a preliminary estimate that a projectile had

17     landed from such and such a direction, plus/minus 5 degrees, that's how

18     it usually went, and I put that in my report.

19        Q.   I'm looking at paragraph 6 of your statement.  That's what I

20     mean.  It says there that you made sure that all members of the team did

21     their job properly, and that's what I'm asking you.  Did you make sure

22     that they did their job properly?

23             Now, tell me, Witness, in paragraph 11 you said, very honestly,

24     that there were not many ballistics experts available.  How did it go

25     when there was no ballistics experts around?  Who did that part of the

Page 8900

 1     work?  You can feel free to use your statement.  It's paragraph 11.

 2        A.   If I may go back to what you asked me, you asked first about

 3     paragraph 6.  I said my job was to provide the right conditions for them

 4     to do their job properly, and to make sure they're not interfered with.

 5             When I said there was a shortage of ballistics experts, there is

 6     some truth in that.  However, if it happened that ballistics experts were

 7     unable to come to a particular crime scene, especially in incidents where

 8     it was possible for CID technicians to determine the direction of fire,

 9     then they did it, because they had training as part of their job.  In

10     easier incidents, where it was easier to determine the direction of fire,

11     scenes-of-crimes officers from the Criminal Investigation Department did

12     that.

13        Q.   And did they do it at the scene or in their offices?

14        A.   I can only remember one such incident where one person was killed

15     and ballistics experts were unable to come, and in that case only the

16     SOCO, the scene-of-crime officer, determined the fire.

17        Q.   In all other cases, it was the ballistics experts?

18        A.   It was, in all incidents that I can remember, the ballistics

19     expert or the bomb squad expert.  There's only one case that I remember

20     when the ballistics expert was absent, and that was gun-fire and sniping

21     in Dobrinja settlement.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Now put your question.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Those other things concerning the trams and the sites we'll deal

25     with later when we come to specific incidents.

Page 8901

 1             You said during the interview that your report alone would be

 2     insufficient for court purposes.

 3        A.   You have to make yourself clearer.  What do you mean?  What do

 4     you mean, it would be insufficient?

 5        Q.   Well, I asked you, Would a report like yours be sufficient for

 6     you to appear before a court in Bosnia?  You said that just with that

 7     report, you would not be unable -- you would be unable to do anything

 8     before the Court in Bosnia.  It's just part of a broader material.

 9        A.   I, alone, would not be doing anything with my report.  Somebody

10     would have to assess my report, and that would be the person presenting

11     the case to the Court.  I said my report was just one of the many

12     documents the Court received.  In addition to my report, there were

13     reports of everyone else who was part of the team; first of all, the

14     report of the scene-of-crimes officer, the ballistic report and the bomb

15     squad report.  My report was just one of the attachments to the criminal

16     report that was sent to the prosecutor's office.  And how worthy or

17     unworthy my report was, I am not the best person to estimate.  It was up

18     to the prosecutor to determine how solid it was.

19        Q.   Thank you.  You said in your statement that you would wait for

20     others to give you their reports, and then you made yours.  Is it then

21     the case that your report is some sort of synthesis?

22        A.   I'd like to see that statement where I allegedly said I waited

23     for other reports.  No, I did not say that.  I said I wrote my report.

24     That was sent to a department, which at that time was called the Genocide

25     Department, and they collected all the other reports.  My report was only

Page 8902

 1     my report, describing what preceded my arrival at the scene, what I found

 2     at the scene, and what I saw; nothing else.

 3        Q.   We'll find that.  It's somewhere in the amalgamated statement and

 4     in your prior evidence.

 5             Now, did the BH Army have so-called "Death Sowers"?

 6        A.   I don't know.

 7        Q.   So if you mention a Death Sower, your first thought would be the

 8     Bosnian Serb side?

 9        A.   I would not have any thoughts of any side.  I just told you I'm

10     not aware whether the BH Army had that weapon.  I just told you that in

11     one incident, it seemed to have been used by the other side, that's all.

12        Q.   Did the Ministry of Defence and the Ministry of the Interior know

13     whether Death Sowers were available to the BH Army?

14        A.   I'm not the right person to ask this question.  I told you that I

15     had no contact with -- in my work with the army or members of the army,

16     because I did strictly police work, work that was within the purview of

17     the Homicide Department.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we get 1D429 in e-court,

19     please.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Could I ask you:  Where is the dental clinic?

22        A.   Somewhere close to a place called Bjelave.

23        Q.   Is that where you lived, in that part of Sarajevo?

24        A.   I lived in a part of Sarajevo called Dijelove [as interpreted] --

25     sorry, Bjelave.

Page 8903

 1        Q.   Can you confirm this format and the person who signed this?

 2     Chief of the Security Services Centre, Sarajevo?

 3        A.   I cannot recognise the form.  I wasn't in a position to look at

 4     documents like this, especially since I can see it's marked as "Secret"

 5     or "Confidential."  So this was not accessible to me.  I do know the

 6     person who signed the document.  He was my chief for a while.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             Can we look at the next page, please.

 9             For the others to know, because we don't have information, this

10     is information of the 19th of October, 1993, and the chief of the

11     Security Services is informing his superiors about the conduct of the

12     11th Independent Battalion of the Army of the Republic of Bosnia and

13     Herzegovina located in Mese Selimovica Street; more precisely, in the

14     ground-floor premises of the School of Dentistry of Sarajevo.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Do you agree that that is the first sentence?

17        A.   Yes, that is the first sentence.

18        Q.   Thank you.  We can't really manage the rest, but it says at the

19     bottom:

20             "In front of the sighted bunker, there is a concrete slab, 30 by

21     10 metres, on which four vehicles are parked, two ambulances, as well as

22     one an armoured combat vehicle.  This vehicle is very interesting

23     because ..."

24             Can we look at the next page.

25             "... because there is a guard with a machine-gun inside it, a

Page 8904

 1     so-called 'Death Sower'."

 2             Is that what it says?

 3        A.   I really wasn't able to follow you.  I'm trying to find where

 4     that is.

 5        Q.   The first sentence at the top:

 6             "This vehicle was very interesting for the reason that there was

 7     a guard in it with a machine-gun called the 'Death Sower'."

 8        A.   At the top, I can just see the end of that sentence.  Probably,

 9     the beginning is on the previous page, but that's probably what it says.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Somewhere in the middle, I'm going to read:

11             "Members of the said unit have been boasting how they have 13

12     machine-guns, Death Sowers, as well as no one can do anything to them."

13             They're also mentioning two nitroglycerine rifles.  It's

14     somewhere towards the middle of the page, where it says "2 STMB."

15        A.   Yes, I see that.

16        Q.   Thank you.  If I'm correct, this is the clinic, and between it

17     and the Medical Faculty, there was the former Nemanjina Street; is that

18     correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             Can we tender this document, please?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may just add that, from

23     whatever I was able to see, this is a document from 1993.  I would just

24     like to draw your attention to the fact that I was not in town at the

25     time and I was not living in the part of town called Bjelave at that

Page 8905

 1     time.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, but you are not the

 3     problem here but the Death Sowers --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Unless it is objected to, we'll mark it for

 5     identification pending translation.

 6             Yes, Mr. Tieger.

 7             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, I wanted to raise a general matter with

 8     respect to the documents that are being marked for identification.  I

 9     raised this with Mr. Robinson earlier.

10             I had noted the increasing number of documents that are not

11     translated, and so I inquired about the process for attempting to ensure,

12     to the extent possible, that there are translations when documents are

13     presented.  I understand that that effort has essentially been abandoned

14     by the Defence, and we have no longer any realistic expectation of

15     receiving translations for documents -- well, other than those that may

16     already be up-loaded in the e-court -- and that would even include

17     documents that have been translated, are available on EDS, but will not

18     be identified as such when presented in court.

19             I raise that not to necessarily revisit the issue.  We've been

20     attempting to cope with it as well as possible, but I think the problem

21     is -- the problem that it creates, as we're attempting to assimilate the

22     significance of a document on the spot, are obvious.  And in addition, I

23     raise it because I want to ensure that when translations finally come

24     back, that that does not mean the automatic admission of the document,

25     because it will still be incumbent on us then to finally review the

Page 8906

 1     document once we finally have the opportunity to do so.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Tieger.  You beat the Chamber in

 3     raising this.  The Chamber was waiting for a moment to raise this

 4     concern.

 5             It's imperative for the Defence to prepare the English

 6     translation well in advance, while understanding the difficulties

 7     preparing for the Defence.  It's time-consuming when we deal with any

 8     untranslated document.  We'll come to that issue later on.

 9             We give the number for this.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  MFI D858.

11             JUDGE KWON:  And we'll have a break for 25 minutes and resume at

12     five past 4.00.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             It would really be good to dwell a little bit on the matter of

15     translations and also on the resources of the Defence, and perhaps at the

16     first opportunity we could place this on the agenda.

17                           [The witness stands down]

18                           --- Recess taken at 3.42 p.m.

19                           --- On resuming at 4.08 p.m.

20             JUDGE KWON:  There is a matter the Chamber wishes to deal with in

21     the absence of the witness.  It's sort of an oral ruling.

22             The Chamber is seized of the accused's 26th motion for finding of

23     disclosure violation and for remedial measures, which makes reference to

24     the disclosure of an additional 14.276 pages of documents by the

25     Prosecution on 13th and 22nd October 2010 pursuant to Rule 68.  A

Page 8907

 1     decision on whether this amounts to a disclosure violation will be issued

 2     in due course, along with the decisions on the pending 22nd and 24th

 3     motions for finding of disclosure violations.

 4             Irrespective of whether the disclosure of this substantial

 5     quantity of material at this stage constitutes a violation of the

 6     Prosecution's obligation to disclose potentially exculpatory material to

 7     the accused on an ongoing basis, and as soon as practicable after such

 8     material comes into the Prosecution's possession, the Chamber is of the

 9     view that the sheer volume of this material is such that it is in the

10     interests of justice to suspend the proceedings temporarily.  This is to

11     allow the accused and his team time to conduct the necessary review of

12     the material and, where appropriate, make use of it in his ongoing

13     cross-examination of Prosecution witnesses and preparations for the

14     Defence phase of the case.

15             The Chamber reminds the accused that it is his task, as lead

16     counsel in his own Defence team, to properly organise and co-ordinate the

17     review of this material, and to prioritise documents which seem most

18     pertinent to upcoming witnesses.  The period of time given for the review

19     is not premised on a calculation of the time necessary to conduct a

20     detailed examination of all the documents, but rather, on the time

21     required to assess the material, as a whole, and identify those which

22     must be given the most immediate attention.

23             In determining the period of suspension, the Chamber also takes

24     into consideration the significant number of violations by the

25     Prosecution of its disclosure obligation under 66(A)(ii) and Rule 68

Page 8908

 1     which have been found to date.  While, individually, it may be said that

 2     the accused has not suffered prejudice by the late disclosure of certain

 3     documents, the Chamber is increasingly troubled by the potential

 4     cumulative effect of such late disclosure.  The Chamber reminds the

 5     Prosecution that the size and complexity of this case is not an excuse

 6     for its failure to properly organise itself to ensure that disclosure is

 7     carried out in accordance with the Rules.  Indeed, in the pre-trial phase

 8     the Prosecution was urged to reduce the scope of the case, or to find

 9     ways to divide it into more manageable pieces, in the interests of a fair

10     and expeditious trial.  The Prosecution represented that it was ready for

11     trial in 2009, but apparently ensuring that it had fully complied with

12     the dead-lines set by the Pre-Trial Judge for disclosure was not fully

13     reflected in that assertion.  The Chamber, therefore, reiterates that the

14     Prosecution - I mean the Office of the Prosecutor as a whole - must take

15     seriously its disclosure obligations and ensure that all necessary

16     resources are dedicated to ensuring timely disclosure of material to this

17     accused, as, indeed, to all other accused at this Tribunal.

18             Taking all these factors into account, the Chamber finds that it

19     is necessary to suspend the trial proceedings for a period of one month,

20     as soon as possible.  We will finish hearing the witnesses scheduled for

21     this week.  We will also hear evidence next week from those witnesses who

22     are already in The Hague or who are already in transit.  Thereafter, we

23     shall suspend the proceedings for a month, and resume on a date and time

24     to be notified to the parties.  Therefore, Mr. Tieger, we expect you to

25     advise us, by tomorrow morning, which witnesses we will thus hear from

Page 8909

 1     next week.

 2             We are also cognisant of the fact that there are certain

 3     witnesses scheduled for later this month whose evidence is locked in to

 4     particular dates.  We hope that you will make your best efforts to

 5     reschedule them.  However, should there be one whose evidence is

 6     scheduled for sometime in this period whom it is impossible to

 7     reschedule, we will consider hearing the evidence of that witness on the

 8     currently scheduled date, so long as you advise us in writing by close of

 9     business on Wednesday, 10th of November, who that witness is and why,

10     despite your best efforts, he or she cannot be rescheduled.  Should it be

11     necessary to hear such a witness, the Chamber will consider the impact

12     thereof on the end-date for that period of suspension.

13             That's the oral ruling, and we'll bring in the witness again.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would just like to express my

15     gratitude and -- gratitude for your understanding.  But I'm just

16     wondering if perhaps the Prosecution doesn't wish to be rid of this case

17     by bringing us into such a position that the case could be dismissed

18     before the beginning of the case defence.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

20             MR. TIEGER:  I just want to -- I don't want to respond.  I just

21     hope the Court appreciates that I don't rise to the bait of such

22     outlandish statements and provocation.

23             JUDGE MORRISON:  Mr. Tieger, we would have been very surprised if

24     you had.

25                           [The witness takes the stand]

Page 8910

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we open the blinds.

 2             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4        Q.   Witness, sir, I would like to go through a small part or number

 5     of your investigations as soon as possible.

 6             Did you take part in the investigation of the shelling of the

 7     Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina building on the 8th of December,

 8     1994?

 9        A.   I can't remember now.  If you do have that report, perhaps you

10     would be kind enough to show it to me and then I confirm it.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             Can we look at 1D2721 without broadcasting it outside, page 2.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Until then:  Witness, did the CSB treat in the same way all the

15     incidents where, for example, there was civilian casualties or civilian

16     buildings were hit, and did they differentiate such incidents from those

17     that suffered damage in fighting?

18        A.   As far as I know, we treated all incidents in the same way, and

19     we acted or worked in the same way.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at page 1 of this

21     document.  Perhaps it's a good thing that you saw the signature.  Can we

22     make sure that this is not broadcast, then.  Anyway, can we look at

23     page 1.  Thank you.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Did the CSB differentiate between civilian targets and legitimate

Page 8911

 1     military targets?

 2        A.   As far as I know, it did not.

 3        Q.   It conducted exactly the same investigations in the case of

 4     civilian targets and legitimate military targets; is that right?

 5        A.   As far as I know, when I went for investigations, and from what I

 6     could see, we treated all incidents in the same way.

 7        Q.   Other than the first person on the list, can you please tell me

 8     the training or the qualifications of each of these people on the list?

 9     Let's say number 2, what was the education?

10        A.   Higher Administrative College.

11        Q.   Go on.  3?

12        A.   I think he was a graduate of law school.  As for number 4 and

13     number 5, I really couldn't tell.  I don't know.  I'm not able to tell

14     you, either, for 7 or 8, number 9 -- no, no, I really couldn't tell you

15     what the education of the others was, or their qualifications.  I can

16     only say it for 2 or 3, because I know that myself for a fact.  I don't

17     know about the others.

18        Q.   Can you tell me, the person under number 2, why is that person

19     qualified or on what grounds are they able to be the head of the criminal

20     investigations team, with or without the presence of the investigation

21     judge?

22        A.   Well, his training, education, and his experience qualify him for

23     that job, and, of course, fulfilling the terms that are set for that

24     particular post.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please tell us, Administrative School is a

Page 8912

 1     school for administrative personnel; isn't that right?

 2        A.   In the diploma which you get after you graduate from that school,

 3     you are granted the title of administrative lawyer.  So you are not a

 4     graduated lawyer but an administrative lawyer.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that this team investigated this

 6     incident of the 8th of December, 1994, when a section of the Presidency

 7     building was hit?  Is that correct?

 8        A.   Yes, this was the team that went to the site and conducted an

 9     investigation there.  I don't see that it says in my report that they

10     conducted the complete investigation.  It just says that the on-scene

11     investigation team went and did their job.

12        Q.   Do you remember which part of the building was struck?

13        A.   I'm trying to find that here in my report and to confirm that,

14     but I think that this was a part that is facing Trebevic, that is, the

15     southern side.

16        Q.   In this paragraph beginning:  "By inspecting the scene of the

17     incident ...," this is the fourth paragraph after the names, is it true

18     that the struck kitchen premises of the Ministry of Defence area is

19     located at the southern side of the Presidency building?  Is that

20     correct?

21        A.   Yes, that's what it says in the report.

22        Q.   Then does this make the building a legitimate military target?

23        A.   Well, I'm not the person who would be able to determine what is a

24     legitimate military target and what isn't.  Probably there is somebody

25     who could make that evaluation, but these were -- this was a part where

Page 8913

 1     the administrative area of the Ministry of Defence was.

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness repeat the rest of his

 3     answer, and could Mr. Karadzic repeat his question.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  The interpreters couldn't hear the last part of your

 5     answer, Mr. Witness.  You stopped, in terms of interpretation:

 6             "But there were -- this was a part where the administrative area

 7     of the Ministry of Defence was."

 8             Did you say anything else from there?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that that's from what I know

10     was the administrative part of the building, and that at the time when I

11     was there, I didn't see -- well, I saw that it was a kitchen, that it was

12     being used by the Ministry of Defence, but I didn't see any armed

13     soldiers in that area.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   But you did see that it was a kitchen, and you knew that it was

16     the Ministry of Defence kitchen, just as it says in the report; is that

17     correct?

18        A.   It states in the report that that was a kitchen that was being

19     used, not that it's their property.  So they were using it, they were

20     probably coming there, but I don't know that this belongs to them.  I

21     just wrote that it was being used by them.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             Can we have 1D2629, please.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   And can I ask you to confirm or deny that this is a document by

Page 8914

 1     the president of the Presidency, who is writing a letter to the prime

 2     minister, in which he said:

 3             "You promised that you were going to free up some rooms in the

 4     Presidency buildings, and nothing came of that."

 5             And then he says:

 6             "We're only using 30 per cent, three salons, and at the same time

 7     the government in the same building is using 150 rooms."

 8             And then it says -- you can look at this part here, where it

 9     says:

10             "There is another problem.  The Chetniks are shooting at the

11     Presidency building and are constantly stating that they are doing that

12     because the Ministry of Defence is located there.  They know it.  It

13     doesn't matter what the Chetniks say, but this is something that UNPROFOR

14     is telling us as well.  As far they're concerned, this is a military

15     facility.  Also, the building has been entered in the Registry of

16     Cultural Monuments, and such buildings, according to The Hague Convention

17     and according to our laws, should not have anything in them that would

18     constitute a military target, and that is why, when you're considering

19     relocating, the first thing that should be relocated would be the

20     Ministry of Defence.  In town, allegedly, there are two more buildings,

21     the property of the republic, which, for unknown reasons, have not been

22     taken over.  One of them is in Dositejeva Street, 20 offices, and the

23     second one is in the Kesovanija Street, 40 offices.  And the second one

24     in the Kesovanija Street, 40 offices."

25             And so on and so forth.

Page 8915

 1             Is that the signature by Mr. Izetbegovic, the late

 2     Mr. Izetbegovic?

 3        A.   Well, I was never in a position to see documents that were signed

 4     by the president of the Presidency, so I really can't tell whether this

 5     is an original document or not.  I cannot confirm its authenticity.  All

 6     I can say is that I am familiar with the name Dr. Haris Silajdzic and the

 7     name of the late president, Mr. Alija Izetbegovic.  I didn't have the

 8     opportunity of receiving any document directly from him, so I really

 9     never saw any document that he, himself, signed personally.

10        Q.   But this corresponds to what you said and what you reported

11     yourself, that there were some parts of the Ministry of Defence there.

12     And he even says that the whole Defence Ministry is situated in the

13     Presidency building and that the government has taken many rooms in that

14     building; is that correct?

15        A.   You can see from the document that it confirms what I said

16     earlier, that we treated all the incidents in the same way and that I

17     just wrote down what I actually saw.  I didn't do anything.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we tender this document,

19     please?

20             JUDGE KWON:  You're tendering the previous document as well?

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's not necessary, that's not

22     necessary.  I do not want to overburden the list of exhibits.

23             MR. HAYDEN:  I'd only note, in that respect, that the line of

24     questioning presumes that you have the document in front of you to be

25     able to understand it, so it may be prudent to admit it.

Page 8916

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Unless it is objected to by you, we'll admit both of

 2     them, marking them for identification, both of them.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  1D2721 will be MFI D859, and

 4     1D2629 will be MFI D860.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6        Q.   Witness, did you take part in the investigation where a girl was

 7     killed in Dobrinja, I believe, on the 14th or 15th of May, 1995?

 8        A.   I've already mentioned that I did attend one such on-site

 9     investigation.  But whether it was on exactly that very day, I would very

10     much appreciate if you could tell me where I can find it.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             Could we now have 65 ter 09766, the first page.  This should not

13     be broadcast.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Witness, does this assist you?

16        A.   Yes, and I did attend this on-site investigation.

17        Q.   Who carried out the ballistics examination?

18        A.   The forensic technician, the crime-of-scene [as interpreted]

19     officer.

20        Q.   And the official report was drafted by you?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And you accepted his report and integrated it here, or was it a

23     separate report that was attached to yours?

24        A.   As I've already mentioned on a number of occasions, I integrated

25     into my report all the information that I obtained on site, and later on

Page 8917

 1     he would prepare his own report.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please confirm that this incident was at

 3     Nehruova Street, number 10?  Today, the name of that street is

 4     Hamdije Kapidzica; correct?

 5        A.   As for Dobrinja and its various parts, I really am not very

 6     familiar with that part of the town.  I wasn't really familiar with it

 7     before the war, let alone during the war.  And if I noted in the report

 8     that it was Nehruova Street, then that refers to its name from that time.

 9     What its new name is, I don't know.

10        Q.   Well, we do have that new name and the list of new street names.

11     It is Hamdije Kapidzica Street.

12             Can you now tell us, please, whether you were able to establish

13     how far the police building was from this building?

14        A.   I don't really know.  And as far as I can recall, we did not

15     consider that to be very relevant to the incident, itself.

16        Q.   Well, don't you think that it was necessary to establish, in view

17     of the fact that the uniformed police took part in combat, that the

18     police station building was an important feature in view of the fact that

19     it could be treated as a military target?

20        A.   In the vicinity of the building that I indicated was a

21     residential building, there was nothing that I could observe as being the

22     police station, and I also was not able to observe that in the vicinity

23     of this residential building and this apartment where this one individual

24     was killed, that any other apartments in the neighbourhood were used as

25     military installations.

Page 8918

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the accused please repeat the name.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm familiar with that name.  And

 4     as far as I know, it's in the area of the new part of town.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, the interpreters were not able to hear

 6     your last question, i.e., the name of something.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Refika Sokolara Street, are you familiar with that?  If I tell

 9     you that Refik Sokolar, during his testimony, testified that there was a

10     police station on that street, would you accept that?

11        A.   I don't know what he confirmed or what his statement was, and I

12     really can't comment on that.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             Could we now please have 1D215.

15             JUDGE KWON:  What was the name of the witness you referred to,

16     Mr. Karadzic?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The police officer's name was

18     Refik Sokolar.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Witness, do you know that this police officer's name,

21     Refik Sokolar, can be found in reference to at least two incidents and

22     maybe more?

23        A.   I'm not aware of that.  And as far as my work was concerned, I

24     never came across it.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have 1D2151, please.  It's

Page 8919

 1     a map.  This is not the document that we see now.  This is not what I was

 2     asking for.

 3             Could we zoom in on the area indicated as "Dobrinja," because I

 4     would like the witness to mark some things there.  Is it possible to

 5     focus this a little better?  We can't make out the street names.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  If we zoom out, then we may be able to see the

 7     names.  No.  This is a scanned version, and the quality of the map is not

 8     that good as one can expect.  That's what I'm told.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Perhaps we can use a different map

10     from the Prosecution binder.

11             Could we have 65 ter 19089.  My apologies, 65 ter 13581.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Sheet number 10, Exhibit P1739.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe we can zoom this in

14     without losing the sharp image.

15             Could we just have before us Dobrinja, itself.  Thank you.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Witness, would you please mark Miroslava Krleze Street.  You can

18     see the street name right here.  It is indicated on the map, itself.

19        A.   If I'm not mistaken, it's right here [indicates].

20             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  We zoom out again.  Before you go

21     on, we need to zoom out.  Just wait a minute.  Move to the left a bit.

22     Further, further, and going up.

23             Is it okay?

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think so.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Could you mark the street?  We should

Page 8920

 1     zoom out.  Fine, fine.  Now go to the left.

 2             THE ACCUSED:  Change to the pencil.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  You have to push the arrow first and

 4     then move the map to the left.  Further, yes, going up.  Yes, I think

 5     it's okay now.  Go down, a bit down.  Further.  Yes.  Too much?  Yes,

 6     yes.

 7             Let's start.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Please mark Miroslava Krleze Street and the building of the

10     incident.

11        A.   [Marks].  I don't think it was on Miroslava Krleze Street.

12     I think the incident involving one victim was in Nehruova Street.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Do you see Hamdije Kapidzica Street?

14        A.   Yes, I do.

15        Q.   Can you mark the building now?

16        A.   I've already said that I'm not very familiar with this part of

17     town, especially not at that time.  But as far as I can see on this map,

18     there are two buildings on that street, and I will indicate both of them,

19     if that's all right [marks].

20        Q.   May I remind you.  You said in your report that the room where

21     the young woman was killed was facing south-east; correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And you established that the round had come from Miroslava Krleze

24     Street; correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 8921

 1        Q.   Is it correct that one of the referent damages to the facility

 2     was on the curtain, itself?  That's in paragraph 19 of your statement, on

 3     page 5.

 4        A.   Well, first, it says that there was some damage on the left part

 5     of the window, 116 centimetres from the floor, where there was a bullet

 6     hole where the bullet had entered, and the same kind of damage or hole

 7     was found on the curtain, 116.5 centimetres from the floor, and also on

 8     the wardrobe, and the distance between the various points where the

 9     bullet struck were some 20 centimetres on the wall, behind the wardrobe.

10     We recovered the round on the floor, and there were traces of blood found

11     on the bedside and on parts of the floor.  And, yes, that's what it says

12     in my report, and there's also mention made of the hole in the curtain.

13        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 19, you also said that there was a hole

14     in the curtain, but then earlier on you said that you need two reference

15     points in order to be able to determine the direction of the projectile,

16     the incoming projectile?

17        A.   I said earlier that I never claimed anything as regards the

18     direction of the fire, but as you can see from the report, the

19     scene-of-crime officer was able to find a number of holes or damages

20     incurred by the bullet.  So it was not just a hole in the curtain, but

21     also a number of other holes.

22        Q.   Is it correct that in paragraph 19, you mention only two of

23     those?  One of them was on the window frame, a plastic sheet on it, and

24     the other end was in the curtains?

25        A.   Well, I mentioned the plastic sheet because it was actually

Page 8922

 1     attached to the window, and it was there to replace the window-pane.  The

 2     second one was on the curtain, and the third reference point was on the

 3     wardrobe.  And then if you draw a line and connect all these three

 4     points, then you could draw a certain conclusion.  So I am repeating

 5     again:  There was not just one such reference point on -- there was

 6     another one on the curtain.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  In your report, you mention two different parts.

 8     These two different parts or two different areas are, in any case, either

 9     the curtain or the plastic sheet of the window, and this ballistics

10     expertise was actually carried out by a scene-of-crime officer and not by

11     a ballistics expert; is that correct?

12        A.   Well, I don't know if you can call it "expertise," but on the

13     basis of everything that is stated here in the report, the scene-of-crime

14     officer determined the direction.  As for any details in that respect, I

15     believe you should ask him about it.  I only accepted the information

16     that he provided to me on the site, itself.  We should look at his report

17     and see what method he applied in order to determine that the bullet had

18     come from that direction.

19        Q.   Tell us, please, what floor was this apartment on?

20        A.   If it's not mentioned in the report, I can't really recall it.  I

21     will try to find and see whether that was mentioned in the report.

22        Q.   It was on the fourth floor; correct?

23        A.   Yes, that's what it says here, the fourth floor.

24        Q.   Now, please take a look at the map.  Between Miroslava Krleze

25     Street and the two buildings on Hamdije Kapidzica Street, are there any

Page 8923

 1     buildings in between that are taller than four storeys?

 2        A.   Well, I've already said that I'm not very familiar with the area.

 3     I don't know if there are any other buildings that are higher than four

 4     storeys.

 5        Q.   Now, tell us, you said that the room where the incident occurred

 6     faced south-east; correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Is it correct that this part of the building actually faces

 9     west-south-west?  Would you please draw a perpendicular line in relation

10     to these two buildings, or, rather, the closest one to Hamdije Kapidzica

11     Street.  So could you draw a perpendicular line in relation to the street

12     between the two buildings?

13        A.   Well, I'm not sure -- I don't know what you mean.

14        Q.   Well, the closest -- the closer of the two buildings on

15     Hamdije Kapidzica Street, would you draw a perpendicular line?

16        A.   [Marks]

17        Q.   That is not a perpendicular line.  Would you please make a right

18     angle in relation to the street there?

19        A.   I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're asking me to do.  What

20     do you mean "right angle"?  Right angle to what?  In relation to the

21     building on Hamdije Kapidzica Street or in relation to Miroslava Krleze

22     Street?  Which building?

23        Q.   Well, let me explain it.  Do you agree with me that when we say

24     you need a perpendicular line, that means that there is a right angle --

25             JUDGE KWON:  We do not need the assistance of the witness to see

Page 8924

 1     how a perpendicular line to that building would look like.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Do you agree with me that a perpendicular line, in relation to

 4     that building, would actually be -- would face south-west and not

 5     south-east?

 6        A.   Are you referring to the building on Hamdije Kapidzica Street?

 7        Q.   Well, the building where the incident occurred.

 8        A.   Well, if you want me to mark approximately where the south-east

 9     is in relation to the building on Hamdije Kapidzica Street, I can do

10     that.  That is in the direction, roughly, of the airport runway.

11        Q.   The rooms on this side in this building, do they face south-east

12     or south-west?

13        A.   Well, I would say south-west, which is not to say that they do

14     not face south-east as well.

15        Q.   But you said they faced south-east, and here we see that this

16     apartment is actually facing south-west.

17        A.   Well, I'm not really such an expert to determine exactly where

18     south-west or south-east on this map would be.  I may have made an error,

19     and I may be corrected, but that's what it says in the report, that it is

20     in the direction of Miroslava Krleze Street.  If that is not south-east,

21     then that's just another way of saying that it faces Miroslava Krleze

22     Street.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Will you please sign and date this document.

24        A.   [Marks]

25             THE ACCUSED:  [No interpretation]

Page 8925

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Delete the signature part, and why don't you put

 2     your witness number, which is "KDZ485."  So we delete that signature.

 3             Shall we ask the witness to delete the lines between the

 4     buildings and the street or shall we leave it as it is?

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm talking about the mistake made

 6     here.  I think we should erase this, perhaps, and draw a perpendicular

 7     line pointing to this building, or leave it empty.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  We just delete the line you draw between the two

 9     markings.  Yes.

10             Could you put "KDZ485"?

11             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

13             That will be admitted ...?

14             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D861, Your Honours.  And for the

15     record, MFI D859 will be under seal.  That's 1D2721.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17        Q.   Is it correct that you participated in investigating an incident

18     of the 22nd December 1994 in a part of Bascarsija known as "flea market"?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   That incident happened at 10 past 9.00, and you made your report

21     and signed it.

22             Can we see 65 ter 09721 - it's page 3 in Serbian - without

23     broadcasting it, please.

24             What was the weather like that morning; do you remember?

25        A.   I can't remember, but I will try to see if it's in the report.

Page 8926

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 09721, page 3, without

 2     broadcasting.  And there's a translation as well.

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Which is ...?

 7             MR. HAYDEN:  I only note that -- perhaps we can quickly move into

 8     private session.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I did say it shouldn't be

10     broadcast.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we announced that exhibit number.  I know what

12     you mean.

13             Let's proceed.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Do you also need to see the page before, Witness?

16        A.   If that's the page with names, the names of the members of the

17     team and the commission, then, no, I have it before me.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Is it the case, if you are informed, that members of

19     the police and members of the BH Army rushed to help the injured at that

20     moment?

21        A.   I can't remember that now.  But if it's in the report, then it's

22     true.  Right now, I can't remember.  I'll try to find it in the report.

23        Q.   It's not in the report.  I'm quoting from some evidence.

24             Can we see 65 ter 13172.  13172, page 70.

25             Because this has been exhibited and the witness has refreshed his

Page 8927

 1     memory, we can remove this document.

 2             How do you explain the presence of police officers, and

 3     especially of the members of the Armed Forces of the Army of Bosnia and

 4     Herzegovina, so quickly on the site?

 5             In English, it's page 21.  You can see the name of this witness

 6     and his signature.  In the second paragraph, line 16, you find what I've

 7     just said.  I believe in English it's perhaps on the next page.

 8             Do you see, line 16, that the police and members of the BH Army

 9     came to their rescue immediately?  Yes, it says so there, to help the

10     wounded -- in English, it's the second line from the top.

11             "... to help the wounded, followed by policemen and members of

12     the BH Army."

13        A.   I do not know what this witness says.  I did not see policemen or

14     army members on-site when I came.  Perhaps that person, the person who

15     gave the statement, can explain.  I have no explanation.

16        Q.   Did you secure these witnesses, because it's your duty to secure

17     the witnesses so they can give the statements?

18        A.   Well, the statements were taken from my colleagues from a

19     different department called the Genocide Department.  I just took their

20     names.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If we have some time left, we'll

22     talk about that genocide.  But before that, I'd like to tender this

23     document, unless it's already a Prosecution exhibit.  Sorry, it's D554,

24     and it's already exhibited.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 8928

 1        Q.   Are you familiar with a sketch made by the members of your team?

 2        A.   Regarding this incident?  No, I don't remember if that sketch

 3     ever reached me.  A sketch is normally made by the scene-of-crime

 4     officer.

 5        Q.   But you know that scene because you participated in the

 6     investigation?

 7        A.   Yes, I roughly remember the scene.  If you could show me a

 8     photograph, that would help me remember the details, but I know

 9     approximately where it happened.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see page 17 of this

11     document.  We can remove the rest, the document on the right.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Is this the scene, Telali Street?  It used to be Petar Kocic

14     Street, and the other street is Oprkanj Street.  It used to be

15     Danila Ilica Street.

16        A.   Yes, that's approximately that place, yes.

17        Q.   Can we agree that the spots where two persons lost their lives

18     are not marked?

19        A.   On this sketch, I see only numbers, and I don't know what clues

20     were marked by the scene-of-crime officers by which numbers.  I just know

21     that one of these is the place of descent of one projectile and the spot

22     marked on the rail tracks is the landing of the other projectile.  Now,

23     what the other numbers mean, I don't know.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see page 16 at the same

25     time, using the split screen?  That's where the key is shown.  Pages 16

Page 8929

 1     and 17 on our split screen.

 2             Oh, then we need the sketch to remain on one half of the screen.

 3     This is page 16 that I asked for, and the sketch should remain on the

 4     other side of the screen.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Can we agree that the report mentions there were two casualties,

 7     and that the place is mentioned?

 8        A.   My report mentions the place where the shell landed and where the

 9     victims fell, yes, correct.

10        Q.   Is it normal, in cases of homicide, that the position of the body

11     is marked by a chalk, its shape is marked?

12        A.   Yes, if the body is found on the spot when we arrive.  Otherwise,

13     there's nothing to mark.  And I already said earlier that by the time we

14     arrived on the scene, we would not find either the bodies of the killed

15     or people who were wounded.  And in this case, again, we did not find the

16     bodies of the dead, so we were not able to mark their position.  Our job

17     was to record and present the crime scene as we found it, not as someone

18     describes it.  That's what we found.  That's what we saw at the time when

19     we were conducting our investigation.

20        Q.   In our interview, and again I see in your statements, you said

21     that if the crime scene had been changed, you would normally record it.

22     Did you record in this report whether this crime scene has been altered

23     and how?

24        A.   I don't see it is written that the bodies had been taken away.

25     It must be an omission on my part.

Page 8930

 1        Q.   Can you use the pencil again, if I may ask the usher to help, to

 2     mark the place where the first projectile landed?

 3        A.   Well, I don't know anymore which landed first and which landed

 4     second, but I will try to mark the two projectiles.  [Marks] I believe

 5     one is designated by number 2 here, and the second one [marks] could be

 6     the one marked by one, if I remember correctly.

 7        Q.   Feel free to use this key.  That's why we placed it on the

 8     screen.  And can you tell us where the fuse was found, the fuse of one of

 9     the projectiles?  Just look at the key, please.

10        A.   I'm looking at my report, because that's the only thing that I'm

11     responsible for.  The key was made by the scene-of-crime officer.  I

12     would not to make any markings based on something I'm not entirely sure

13     about.

14        Q.   Is it written in your report that you found the fuse, in what

15     condition it was, and where it was lying?

16        A.   It says that forensic inspection found fragments of the

17     projectile, and the place of descent, that it was taken over by the MUP,

18     and that it would be submitted to experts.  So in my report, it says that

19     examination by scenes-of-crime officers of the place where the projectile

20     landed found fragments of the projectile.  They were taken over by

21     members of the bomb squad of the MUP of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and they

22     would be sent for further examination.  So I did not describe in detail

23     which fragments were found.  And it goes without saying that a fuse is

24     also a part of the projectile.

25        Q.   Do you agree that here, under number 9, it says:  "Part of the

Page 8931

 1     fuse"?  So on the picture, under number 9 is the place where part of the

 2     fuse of the projectile was found?

 3        A.   That's written here.

 4        Q.   Can you then put a circle around this "9."  Because there is no

 5     translation of the key, we would know that it's where the fuse was found.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  We do have the translation of the key.  It's page 7

 7     of the English version.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] All right.

 9        Q.   Could you now put the date and your number there.

10        A.   [Marks].  It's not a problem.  Would somebody remind me of my

11     number?

12        Q.   485.

13        A.   [Marks]

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May this be admitted?

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  When we have an English translation, this was

16     not necessary.  But, in any event, we'll admit it.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D862, Your Honours.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now see 1D2163.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   You are familiar with that place, you frequented it before;

21     right?

22        A.   Which place?

23        Q.   The place where the incident happened.

24        A.   Yes, yes, I know it.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D2163, please, in e-court.

Page 8932

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Do you know this street?  Is it Danila Ilica Street, nowadays

 3     called Oprkanj?

 4        A.   Yes, I know this street.

 5        Q.   Could you mark, roughly or exactly, the spot where the

 6     projectile, or at least one of the projectiles, landed?

 7        A.   That would be really difficult now to remember and to mark.  My

 8     report says it's somewhere in that street, but would I be able to

 9     remember exactly whether it is close to the curb?

10        Q.   Well, roughly.

11        A.   [Marks].  I find it hard to remember anything with certainty, but

12     I think it's not far from the curb.

13        Q.   Could you repeat the same again; put the date and number.

14        A.   [Marks]

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May this be received?

16             JUDGE KWON:  Exhibit D863.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now see page 40 of the

18     previous document, 13172.  Page 40.

19             Page 40 in the 65 ter 13172.  We had that document on the screen

20     a moment ago.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Do you know -- can you recognise this window?

23        A.   I cannot remember it.  It's just a fragment of a wall and a

24     window.

25        Q.   Can you remember it from your file?  It's written below.

Page 8933

 1             Can we zoom in a bit further.

 2        A.   It says that it's a protective metal window with damage on it,

 3     damage from explosion.  It's possibly a window on this street.  I think

 4     it's in Danila Ilica Street.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Your job was to record the evidence?

 6        A.   To record and mark the evidence.  Photo documentation,

 7     photographs, and video footage are the job of the scenes-of-crime

 8     officer.  I just indicated it in the sketch, but it was not my job to

 9     photograph this.

10        Q.   Who told him to photograph the window, and who made these

11     markings in chalk?

12        A.   I cannot recall now.  It was too long ago.  I cannot remember who

13     ordered him to take pictures.  If there are markings, then they must have

14     been made by the scenes-of-crime officer or the ballistics person.  They

15     would have been recorded also on the sketch, together with the markings

16     of other damage and other clues.

17        Q.   But all this is going on under your supervision, correct, under

18     the supervision of one of the leaders, and you said it was your

19     responsibility to record evidence?

20        A.   No, I said it was my responsibility to put together a team and to

21     enable each member of the team to do his part of the job.  It was not my

22     job to tell them what to mark, what not to mark, how to photograph or

23     film it, and how that would look on the sketch.

24        Q.   Do you have any explanation for the fact that there are no --

25     there is no fragment damage on the wall, just chalk marks?

Page 8934

 1        A.   I cannot give you no such explanation [as interpreted].  I

 2     believe the experts from the bomb squad could give you the explanation of

 3     the effects of such an explosion and how the fragments would be

 4     scattered.  All I know is that on some sides, there would be more

 5     fragments; on another side, less.  But you need an expert to give you

 6     that sort of explanation.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             Can we now have page 41 of the same document.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Do you agree that in the previous photo, you couldn't see marks

11     on the wall, and they were not marked in any way, either; only on the

12     window?

13        A.   I wasn't able to see everything that was marked and what traces

14     are visible on that photograph.  I can't do that on this photograph,

15     either.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.  Let's bring the

17     previous picture back.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Do you see that the shutters are open?  This is that same window,

20     and it's now the shutters are open; is that correct?

21        A.   That's what it says in the caption below the photograph.

22        Q.   And do you see any markings or traces on the wall in this one?

23             First, let's look at the first picture.

24             Do you see, on any of these photographs, fragment traces on the

25     wall?  The fragments that damaged metal must have left some traces on the

Page 8935

 1     wall as well.

 2        A.   I don't know if I can see very well.  I mean, I'm using glasses,

 3     but from what I can see, there are some circles on the black background.

 4     I don't know if that is the damage represented in the comments below the

 5     photograph.  I'm not sure if that's what I'm seeing or not.  But, anyway,

 6     on the -- in the text below the photograph, it states that the metal

 7     protective area of the window does indicate damage.

 8        Q.   Yes, you can see it on the window.  Those places are marked in

 9     chalk.  But we have no traces on the wall of any fragments -- made by any

10     fragments; is that correct?

11        A.   Again, I'm telling you that I don't see if there are any or not,

12     and I don't see them marked.  I don't know whether there were any or not.

13     And if there were any, I don't know why they weren't marked.  I really

14     think these questions should be directed to the person who created these

15     photo documents.

16             JUDGE KWON:  We'll have a break --

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             JUDGE KWON:  -- for 25 minutes.  We'll resume at quarter to 6.00.

19                           --- Recess taken at 5.24 p.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 5.51 p.m.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             Can we look at page 35 in this document, please.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   And while we're waiting:  Witness, sir, how has this scene

Page 8936

 1     changed in the meantime, other than removing the people who were killed?

 2     To what extent has the scene of the incident been altered?

 3        A.   I really couldn't say, because I don't know what it looked like

 4     initially, especially because in my report, I failed to note all the

 5     things that were altered.  But based on my experience from that period,

 6     usually the scene was altered to the extent that those who were killed or

 7     wounded were removed, and that would be the information that we would get

 8     from the local police.  I don't know if anything else was altered or not.

 9     I couldn't know something like that, so I had to rely on what was

10     conveyed to me by the local policemen.

11        Q.   Was the ground or the soil around the crater cleared, within the

12     crater?  Did anybody inform you about that?

13        A.   Well, it's difficult for me to recall such details.  It's been a

14     long time since then.  I really cannot remember.  I wouldn't be able to

15     confirm that or deny it.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17             Can I ask the usher, please, to turn the marker on.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   And can I ask you to link up these rocks or stones and these

20     parts of something from the top of the photograph down.  But those that

21     are lying on the periphery of the center, do you see those objects in the

22     photograph?  You can see them in the upper top left-hand corner.  There's

23     one, two, three, four, five, six, or seven pieces or so.  Could you link

24     them or connect them with one line, please?

25        A.   [Marks].  If that's that.

Page 8937

 1        Q.   Well, all right, these are the closest to us.  Well, would you

 2     agree, when you look at it, that these fragments are in a convex shape --

 3     concave in relation to the top and convex in relation to us?

 4             Perhaps let me say that again in our language, like my adviser

 5     says.

 6             So is this depressed part facing away from us and the one that is

 7     convex towards us?

 8        A.   The part that is bulging is facing the crater, it's facing us.

 9        Q.   All right.  Is that what is marked with number 2 the place where

10     the projectile hit the curb of Oprkanj Street?

11        A.   Yes, that's what it says, the curb of the Oprkanj Street.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Do you have an explanation why these fragments are

13     not facing us, why the shape those fragments are making is not reverse

14     than what it is?

15        A.   I really cannot comment on that.  I'm not an expert, and I can't

16     tell.

17        Q.   All right.  Thank you very much.  Could you put your initials and

18     the date on this photograph so that it can be tendered.

19        A.   [Marks].

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             Can we tender this, please?

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D864, Your Honours.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at page 36 of this same

25     document.

Page 8938

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   This is that same location; is that correct?  It just says:

 3             "Crater photographed from close up."

 4             So we can see the pipes that are shown in the previous

 5     photograph, but the image is not so close up.

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat his answer.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Did you say, Yes, Mr. Witness?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I said, Yes, that is what it

 9     states in the caption underneath the photograph.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at page 37.  So

11     it's just one page ahead.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Do you notice the pattern of the soil that you can see there?

14             Can we zoom in, please.

15             Can you please read out what it says underneath this photograph.

16        A.   "The same crater photographed after the clearing of the material

17     that was scattered around, with marked damage created by the explosion."

18        Q.   What do we see here?  We see the compass and the number 1?

19        A.   Well, I see the number 1.  I don't recognize what is to the right

20     of the number 1.

21        Q.   But you can see that the soil has been removed and cleared here,

22     is that correct, just like it is written at the bottom?

23        A.   Yes, it says at the bottom of the photograph that the material

24     that was scattered around was cleared.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 8939

 1             Could we move on to the next page, please, 38.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Hayden.

 3             MR. HAYDEN:  I wonder what the point of this line of questioning

 4     is, this and the previous half hour before the break, looking at

 5     photographs.  The witness hasn't been able to add anything, other than

 6     read the description.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Quite true, Mr. Hayden.

 8             I don't see the point, Mr. Karadzic.  This is --

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I will, then, tell you, and I

10     will disclose my Defence case before this witness.

11             Everything was altered here, and nothing was conducted in keeping

12     with the standards of on-site investigations.  And we have before us one

13     of the leading persons working in these teams, and this is the person who

14     should explain whether an on-site investigation should be conducted in

15     this manner.

16             JUDGE KWON:  You could put that question easily to the witness,

17     for the first thing.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Can you tell us what these hands, the compass hands, indicate?

20        A.   I don't know what they indicate.  All I can do is read the

21     caption below the photograph, which says that the arrow shows the

22     direction -- the incoming path of the projectile.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Witness, it was put to you that everything was

24     altered here, nothing was conducted in keeping with the standards of

25     on-site investigation.  What would you have to say to this?

Page 8940

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that once my team arrived

 2     on site, they did everything as prescribed by the law.  It was not

 3     pointed out, in any specific terms to me, what it was that we failed to

 4     do according to the standards of the profession.  The only thing was, and

 5     we failed to mention that, that the bodies of the casualties were -- and

 6     the wounded persons were removed from the scene.  So I could not infer

 7     from the question what it was that was missing, because in the last

 8     question, apparently the suggestion is that nothing was done according to

 9     procedure, so I would like it to be pointed out to me and then I can

10     comment.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, with the Trial Chamber's

12     patience, and if you can just bear with me, I will show what my direction

13     of questioning is.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   So, Witness, the scene of crime was altered; correct?

16        A.   Well, only in the sense that the bodies of the casualties were

17     removed.  Everything else is as recorded in the report.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now please have 1D02178.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   And could you tell us whether the clues or the traces on the

21     ground were altered in any way?

22        A.   I don't know what traces you are referring to.

23        Q.   Well, we've just heard now that the crater was cleared and that

24     the soil was disturbed.

25        A.   Well, I can only comment and say that I assumed that the crater

Page 8941

 1     was cleared after the KDZ team, the bomb squad team, examined the scene

 2     and stated what kind of condition they found it in.  And you can also see

 3     that from the photographs.  You could see the photographs made before the

 4     clearing of the area and after it was cleared.  In other words, it was

 5     done in stages.

 6        Q.   Would you please look at this photo, and just disregard the

 7     arrows and the numbers there.  Can you observe that these are the

 8     photographs of the same scene, and we see that the ground or the soil was

 9     disturbed, and that there are no traces of any fragments on the ground

10     there that would indicate the direction of the -- the incoming path of

11     the projectile?

12        A.   Well, all I can say is that these photos were taken from two

13     different angles.  Now, whether any fragments were there or not, and what

14     the bomb squad experts and ballistics experts recorded in their reports

15     about the crime scene, I really can't comment on.  All I can observe here

16     is that these two photos were made from two different angles and that the

17     magnification degree was different.

18        Q.   Well, you can see that the ground was disturbed and the soil was

19     not in the same spot where it was in reference to the curb?

20        A.   Well, I don't know when the first or the second photos were

21     taken, whether they were taken immediately upon arrival on the scene or

22     after it had already been examined and documented.  So whether, in

23     photograph 2, the number indicates the soil or anything else, I don't

24     know.  I cannot really go into commenting this because I don't know

25     anything about this.

Page 8942

 1             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think that was a fair question to the

 2     witness.

 3             Can we bring up page 37 of the previous document, and English

 4     version page 10.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Would you agree that these two photos were photos of the same

 7     site from two different angles?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Could you wait.

 9             If we look at the English translation, it says that it's the same

10     photo of the close-up projectile crater, but crater photographed after

11     debris was cleared away.  It's clear from the caption.

12             So what is your question, Mr. Karadzic?  The investigative

13     report, itself, says it cleared the debris.  So that's what you referred

14     to as being altered.  Can you confirm that's what it says?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is what it says in the

16     original as well.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Can we agree that a crime scene may not be altered before it is

19     examined and documented?  Could you answer with a yes or no, please.

20        A.   Well, I can't be as brief in my reply.  All I can say is that the

21     same site, the same crime scene, is photographed at various stages at

22     first, when we just arrived, and then at the second and third stages,

23     after certain measures were taken.  So, in other words, photographs can

24     be taken at several different stages, and that is true of this photograph

25     as well.  And probably the photo file contains the crime -- the scene of

Page 8943

 1     crime as we found it originally, and then this one after it was cleared.

 2        Q.   How is the incoming trajectory of a projectile determined?

 3        A.   I'm sure that that's a question for an expert in that field, and

 4     I am not such an expert nor am I familiar in detail with what methods

 5     they use in order to determine the incoming trajectory and path.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Would you agree that the layout of the traces around

 7     the crater has to be preserved and should not be removed before it's

 8     examined?  You were the person who documented the recovery of evidence on

 9     the site, so why was the site cleared away before you arrived?

10        A.   Well, I can't really see, from this photo, whether the trajectory

11     was already established and then the crime scene cleared away or whether

12     it was done the other way around.  I can't see it, based on this photo.

13     This is probably a question you should put to the author of this

14     photograph and to the people who conducted the investigation.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Hayden.

16             MR. HAYDEN:  Three points, Your Honour.

17             One, the witness has now stated on a number of occasions that he

18     is not familiar with the methods of determining trajectory or direction

19     of fire.

20             Second, the accused has stated in his question:

21             "Why was the site cleared away before you arrived?"

22             The witness has already made it clear that that's not the case,

23     it was only the bodies that were removed before he arrived.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Probably the Chamber has allowed too much for

25     cross-examination of this witness to the accused.

Page 8944

 1             Mr. Karadzic.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The interpretation was --

 3     Your Excellency, it's quite all right.  This is a large case and

 4     involving many incidents.  The interpretation was bad.  I asked, What was

 5     altered before on the ground, and then my question was, Why was it

 6     necessary to clear away the soil from the crime scene?  So we are having

 7     difficulty here with the interpretation, and I will have to obtain the

 8     video materials in order to check them at home.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Now, Witness, I would like to know this:  Did you make sure that

11     each member of your team carry out their work properly, because that's

12     what you stated in your statement, and why, then, did you allow the soil

13     to be removed, and that was a determining factor in establishing the

14     direction of fire?

15        A.   Well, again, I have to --

16             JUDGE KWON:  He answered your question.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

18             Can we then have 1D2164, please.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Would you please indicate, on this photograph, the point of

21     impact of the second shell.  Is this where it landed, and could you

22     please mark the spot where it was?  But do not use the marker that you

23     have there.

24             Could the witness please be provided with a pen, a regular pen.

25        A.   This is a new photograph, and it approximately depicts the area.

Page 8945

 1     However, I can only mark approximately the place where that projectile

 2     would have fallen.

 3        Q.   Well, can you just do it approximately?

 4        A.   No problem, I will try to indicate where that was [marks].

 5     I think it's about here somewhere, but please don't take my word for it.

 6     It's not 100 per cent precise, but it's approximately in this area here,

 7     because this is a later photo and in the meantime the street was

 8     repaired, the stores are different and they were changed, and so on.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Would you please date this and put your pseudonym

10     number.

11        A.   [Marks]

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We will not discuss this incident

13     at length or as much as I wanted to, because I won't be able to ask you

14     about many of the things I'm interested in.

15             Could we now please have page 44 of the earlier document, and I

16     would like to tender this photograph, please.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Exhibit D865.

18                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

19             JUDGE KWON:  Unfortunately, because of technical difficulty, we

20     lost the picture.  Could you mark it, kindly, again, Mr. Witness, and

21     sign it again.

22             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

23             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  This is Exhibit D865.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 8946

 1        Q.   Witness, can you tell us, who could answer our questions in

 2     relation -- regarding this incident?  Who is the person who could answer

 3     all our questions?  Who was the person responsible for the investigation

 4     into this particular incident, so that we can put all our questions to

 5     them?  Could you -- you don't have to use a name.  Could you just tell us

 6     the job title of that person?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Hayden.

 8             MR. HAYDEN:  That's not an appropriate question, Your Honour.

 9     The witness, for a start, can't possibly know what kind of questions

10     Mr. Karadzic has regarding this incident.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

12             Previously, you answered, Mr. Witness, that Mr. Karadzic should

13     put that question to the author of this investigation report.  Do you

14     know who the author was?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The part relating to the photo file

16     and the sketch of the scene of crime, as well as the video-recording of

17     the scene of crime, is the person indicated there as the scene-of-crime

18     officer.

19             As for the questions about the incoming trajectory and the angle

20     of descent, and other matters that relate to the explosion, itself, I

21     assume -- or, rather, I'm sure that a bomb squad expert would have all

22     the answers to those questions, because that would have been the person

23     who conducted the investigation and tried to establish what kind of

24     projectile was in question.

25             So each individual would be responsible for their own field of

Page 8947

 1     expertise, to answer the questions relating to that field of expertise.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  And as regards the timing to clear the crime scene

 3     after having investigated?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you please be more specific?

 5     Do you mean the clearing away after everything was completed or does this

 6     relate to the earlier question?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  For example, whether or not to clear the debris from

 8     the crime scene after proper investigation, and when to do it, who

 9     decides that?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I could see the method of

11     the bomb squad experts and the way they work, I saw that first -- what

12     they do first is establish and determine -- describe the exact situation

13     as they found it when they arrived.  Then they determine the angle of

14     descent, and once that is done, they would clear away the debris from the

15     point of impact, itself, and I assume this is done because it is expected

16     that other parts of an explosive device or projectile that had come in

17     could be found.  So that is done at that stage.

18             There is a stage called the "clearing of the debris" stage, but I

19     cannot tell you exactly what that pertains to because that was done by

20     the individuals who are responsible for that part of the investigation.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

22             Mr. Karadzic.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24        Q.   Why would, then, the marking of the direction from which the

25     projectile came, on page 38, take place after the marking of the crater

Page 8948

 1     and the scene -- after the clearing of the crater, correcting.

 2             The interpretation is a disaster.  I apologise to the

 3     interpreters.  We're probably speaking too fast, but the interpretation

 4     is confusing.

 5             After the clearing of the crater, the direction of fire is

 6     determined.  Does that mean that the traces are not important or even

 7     make it harder to determine the direction of fire?

 8        A.   I believe we're coming back again to the answers I've already

 9     given.  I don't know their methods.  Perhaps we should look to see if

10     there is a photograph taken before the clearing, and how it was taken,

11     not look at the photo file selectively, but look at the entire photo file

12     to see if there was a photograph before, just when the team came to the

13     site, and then you can maybe get an answer.

14        Q.   In this document, itself, it is written on page 38 and it is

15     shown that the direction was determined.

16             May I now ask for page 44.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic -- no, I will stop you.  Your question

18     was on the basis that the photos in this investigation report were

19     compiled in chronological order.  How can this witness answer that

20     question?

21             You said you would move on to your next topic.  Please do so.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In this case, I want just one more

23     photograph so the witness can confirm.  It's directly within his purview.

24             Page 44 of this document.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 8949

 1        Q.   Until then:  Witness, can you tell us who is answerable for this

 2     case, for this documentation?  Who is responsible at the moment when this

 3     documentation is submitted to the Prosecutor's Office?  Who is the author

 4     of this document, as a whole?

 5        A.   I've said that the author of the photo file is the

 6     scene-of-crimes technician.

 7        Q.   No, no, no.  Who is responsible for this case?  Who is answerable

 8     for this whole case file?  It is submitted to the Prosecutor's Office

 9     with the intention of bringing the perpetrator to justice.  Who is

10     responsible, who is the end author who makes the synthesis and submits

11     the file with the intention of bringing the perpetrator to justice?

12        A.   The synthesis of all the material that has been made, the

13     findings, the traces, et cetera, was done by the department called at

14     that time the Genocide Department.  Based on that material, they wrote up

15     a criminal report that was submitted to the Prosecutor's Office.

16        Q.   The whole department or a person in that department whom we can

17     call?  We can't call the department.  Who can we call to shed light on

18     this case?

19        A.   To the best of my knowledge about the method of work, on every

20     criminal report given to the Prosecutor's Office, there is the name of

21     the person who processed the case, who worked on it.  So probably on

22     their document, you can find the identification of the person who put

23     together the whole material.

24        Q.   With all due respect, Witness, in all these cases, whenever we

25     try to pin-point someone who is responsible, they slip away like soap.

Page 8950

 1             Can you mark on this picture the fuse?  These are fragments that

 2     you recorded.  Could you mark the fuse on this photograph?

 3        A.   I don't see anywhere a document where it says that I recorded and

 4     gathered these fragments.  In my document, it says, and we can come back

 5     to it again, that fragments were found.  There is not a single word or a

 6     sentence in my report that says that a fuse was found or any other

 7     specific fragment by name.  Again, I repeat, I am not the person who

 8     knows or is able to identify the fuse on this photograph.

 9        Q.   We saw, in the key under number 9, that there was a fuse.  If we

10     have a fragment of fuse on this photograph and you're unable to mark it,

11     we can move to the next incident.

12             Did you investigate the incident in Safet Hadzic Street?

13        A.   I was in Safet Hadzic Street, but it would be good if you could

14     tell me which incident happened there and what it was all about.  And I'm

15     telling you, again, I did not conduct the whole investigation, but the

16     on-site investigation.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we then get -- just a moment.

18     We have an ERN number here.  65 ter, it would be, 09784, without

19     broadcasting it.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Are you familiar with this official report?

22        A.   Yes.  My name is on it, but there must be another two pages of

23     it.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we get the next page to see who

25     signed it, page 3 from here.  This is the first in Serbian.  We need the

Page 8951

 1     third.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Do you see who signed it?

 4        A.   Yes.  That's my signature.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Look at that page, and then we should go back to the

 6     front to see all you need.  Tell us when you need to go back to page 2 or

 7     1.

 8        A.   You can start asking your questions while we're on page 3.  I

 9     don't know what you wanted to say by -- what you mean by saying, Look at

10     what you need.  I have no idea what your questions are going to be.

11        Q.   Because I'm going to ask you about another case, I wanted you to

12     refresh your memory using this document so I can call up something else

13     into e-court.

14             Can we see page 2.  Thank you.

15             We will call them every time, or perhaps we can have the Serbian

16     version of this document printed out so we can call up other things.  Can

17     we print pages 1, 2 and 3 and give the witness a hard copy?

18             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Witness has a hard copy with him now.  That's

19     what you said, yes.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellent.  I didn't know that.

21             No, I wanted him to have it now.  Does he have it now?

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Do you have this report on paper?

24        A.   Yes.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellent, thank you.

Page 8952

 1             Can we now get 10273.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   While we're waiting:  Witness, before which number in

 4     Safet Hadzic Street did this incident happen?

 5        A.   I believe my report speaks about, if I can put it that way,

 6     events of two kinds.  An event is described where activation of explosive

 7     devices was found, as written in my report, from a 90-millimetre gun, and

 8     the impact of a modified air-bomb on a residential building.  If you mean

 9     Safet Hadzic Street, and it was -- it used to be called the 1st of May

10     Street, an explosive device of huge destructive power impacted outside

11     number 152.  But also in the same street, outside numbers 110, 102,

12     et cetera, damage was found caused by a projectile fired from an

13     artillery gun, or, rather, several projectiles fired from artillery guns

14     of 90 millimetres and one projectile of great destructive power, which

15     was a modified air-bomb.

16        Q.   And what happened outside number 52?  Because you also list that

17     number.

18        A.   It says "on the roof," so there must be a mistake here, a typo.

19     Either number "1" was typed by mistake before "52," or perhaps "1" was

20     omitted before "52."  In any case, it's a typo, because there was only

21     one projectile of huge destructive power.

22             Now, at this moment, after all this time, I cannot tell you

23     whether the correct house number is 152 or 52.  In any case, it was about

24     one residential building and one roof.

25             Now, in view of what happened, and in retrospect, to view our

Page 8953

 1     work in this way, as if we had worked under ideal circumstances, and to

 2     expect me to explain how an error occurred, I cannot.  It is a typo,

 3     anyway.

 4        Q.   Can you mark which projectile fell on which building?  Use green,

 5     please, or black.  You can change the colour on that pen.

 6        A.   If I can remember correctly now, it's this one [marks].

 7        Q.   Put number 1 and tell us what fell there.

 8        A.   [Marks].  I think this explosive device of great destructive

 9     power or, as I wrote down, modified air-bomb, fell on this building.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Where did this German Nazi shell fall, whatever you

11     found?

12        A.   It's written exactly, what impacted there, and there is a

13     description.  I'll try to draw a line to mark, approximately in this area

14     [marks], damage was found in several places from these artillery

15     projectiles.  If my memory serves me well, this is a school and these are

16     residential buildings.  And on this axis, damage was found, including one

17     unexploded shell.

18        Q.   The black line is number 2; right?

19        A.   [Marks]

20        Q.   And that denotes the layout of fragments from another projectile?

21        A.   Not fragments, but damage caused by several projectiles that fell

22     there.

23        Q.   And what is this building just behind number 2?

24        A.   I just told you.  If I remember well, it was a primary school.  I

25     believe it's still a primary school.

Page 8954

 1        Q.   And what was it during the war?

 2        A.   I really don't know.

 3        Q.   And what's that building further towards the top with two big

 4     windows?  Or, rather, is that a transformer station in Novi Grad?

 5        A.   Possibly.  Possibly, there was a transformer station near this

 6     streetcar depot.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Can you put number 3 on that building.

 8        A.   [Marks]

 9        Q.   Can we agree that this transformer station for Novi Grad feeds

10     everything that's important in Novi Grad?

11        A.   I have no idea what areas are fed by this transformer station and

12     which area it covers.

13        Q.   Again, could you please put the date and your number.

14        A.   [Marks]

15        Q.   What you said was the school, could it have been a police station

16     in Novi Grad?

17        A.   No.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

19             May this document be received?

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D866, Your Honours.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D02198, please.  1D02198.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Please, do you see the building of the television station here,

25     then the transformer station, the Surveying Institute?  Can you just mark

Page 8955

 1     them and say, Number 1 is this, number 2 is this?  Can you see the TV

 2     building?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Can you put number 1 there, in whatever colour.

 5        A.   [Marks]

 6        Q.   The Surveying Institute?

 7        A.   It's together with the Municipal building of Novi Grad, if I can

 8     combine both the Municipality building and the Surveying Institute at

 9     number 2.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Do you see the police station at Novi Grad?  Is the

11     red roof at the police station?

12        A.   No, it isn't.

13        Q.   All right.  Do you see the transformer station better now?

14        A.   I'm not sure whether this is perhaps the transformer station.  I

15     can mark it, but I'm not sure.

16        Q.   All right.  Put number 3 there.

17        A.   [Marks] But I'm not sure.

18        Q.   Can you just mark the building on which the projectile impacted?

19     Formerly, 1st of May Street, nowadays Safet Hadzic Street.

20        A.   This is the photograph --

21        Q.   Do you see the school?

22        A.   It could be this building [marks].

23        Q.   Can you put number 4?

24        A.   Yes.  [Marks]

25        Q.   Can you tell us how the direction of fire was determined here?

Page 8956

 1        A.   I don't know.

 2        Q.   May I ask you to look in your report to see what's written there?

 3        A.   It says that if we are talking about this modified air-bomb, it

 4     says that the direction is south-south-west, that it came from that

 5     direction, which corresponds with the positions in the area of Lukavica.

 6        Q.   But here, at the beginning of page 2 -- or, rather, the end of

 7     page 1, it says:

 8             "The projectile fell not far from the north-western wall of the

 9     residential building in Safet Hadzic Street."

10             Can you draw an arrow to mark this north-western wall of the

11     building?  You know where the north is, you know what it looks like.  Can

12     you draw a line -- or, rather, an arrow to show the north-west direction.

13        A.   I don't know if that's right [marks], but the north-western part

14     of the building is on this side.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, I wanted to let you know that you have

17     spent so far two hours and a half, and you will have one hour left.  So

18     plan the remainder of your cross-examination to cover everything.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             That's the source of the greatest frustration for the Defence.

21     We are dealing with important witnesses and important documents, and a

22     large number of incidents, so we cannot just muddle through it and rush

23     through it.  In cases where there was a rush through such things, people

24     have been convicted.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 8957

 1        Q.   Look at your report.  Based on unexploded projectiles and the

 2     detected parts of exploded projectiles, it was established that they were

 3     always armoured projectiles, 90-millimetre calibre.  Can you see that

 4     passage?

 5        A.   Yes, I do.

 6        Q.   Now, about this north-west wall, can you connect it -- or,

 7     rather, can you extend this line, this arrow you drew, across the entire

 8     photograph?

 9        A.   [Marks]

10        Q.   Thank you.  Can you put the date and your number.

11        A.   [Marks]

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May this be received?

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D867.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16        Q.   Can you continue?  It says here that you also found a shell

17     produced in Germany, with an eagle, with a swastika.  Can you read that:

18             "Calibre, 90 millimetres, produced in Nazi Germany ..."

19        A.   "With the following markings."

20        Q.   Go on until "Ilidza."

21        A.   "The sign of eagle with the swastika, WOA411."  And then in the

22     extension number, "3."  "Eagle with swastika," and opposite that,

23     number "1."  And then "CZL," and below, "BYW."  And then opposite that,

24     "043," and below that number, "968."  And in extension letter "A."

25        Q.   Does that mean that three such projectiles were found, or is it

Page 8958

 1     one?

 2        A.   If I can remember well now, it was one unexploded projectile.

 3     I'm not sure.

 4        Q.   It says:

 5             "Explosive artillery projectiles, calibre 90 millimetres"?

 6        A.   It says there were several of them that landed and exploded, and

 7     this one was found unexploded.

 8        Q.   Look at the next sentence:

 9             "According to the traces --"

10             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters do not have this text.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   "According to the traces, it was established that all these

13     projectiles from a weapon so far undetermined were fired from the

14     direction of the west, which corresponds to the positions of the Serbs."

15             How did you come to this conclusion?

16        A.   That's a question for the members of the team.  If you have

17     before you the first page of my report, those are persons under numbers 3

18     and 4, especially the person under number 3.  That was his field of work.

19        Q.   Who is the ballistics person in this investigation?

20        A.   You can probably see, yourself, that not a single person here is

21     identified as a ballistics expert or a member of the bomb squad team, so

22     there were probably none of those.

23        Q.   And how was the conclusion made in Bascarsija, in the previous

24     incident, that the shell came from Mount Trebevic, from the Serbian

25     positions?  What was the decisive criterion enabling you to say that it

Page 8959

 1     came from the Serbian positions on Mount Trebevic?

 2             MR. HAYDEN:  Asked and answered.  He's already stated that he

 3     doesn't know about the methodology and how it was determined.  He only

 4     recorded the conclusions.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Do you know, Witness, that on Trebevic, the forces of the BH Army

 8     held several hills and several important features just overlooking

 9     Bascarsija at Colina Kapa, Mala Kapa, then further on Debelo Brdo,

10     et cetera; is that so?

11        A.   I'm not sure whether I told you that today or yesterday when we

12     talked, but I had never been at the lines, nor do I know in which areas

13     members of the BH Army were positioned or members of the VRS.  And I

14     cannot tell you now where the BH Army positions were.

15        Q.   But do you agree that for a while you lived at the very

16     separation line in Ilidza?

17        A.   Perhaps this is a question that might --

18        Q.   Well, you don't have to.  It cannot have any effect, but I

19     withdraw my question.

20             Do you consider that a team that is supposed to establish the

21     direction of fire, it is very important to know the disposition of the

22     forces?

23             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think it's for the witness to answer that,

24     such a question.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With all due respect,

Page 8960

 1     Your Excellency, it says here that the projectile had come from the

 2     aggressor side, the rebel Serb forces.  I will overlook what it says

 3     here, "the Serb rebel forces," but there is an identification of a

 4     perpetrator and a location of where they were, so we have to know where

 5     that was if that's what is stated in his report.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Is that so, Witness?  If you say that a projectile had come from

 8     a place, here or there, that would mean that you know where it had come

 9     from?

10             JUDGE KWON:  I think the witness answered that he doesn't know.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Well, why, then, did you put your signature on this report, where

13     it says that the place from which the projectile had been fired was

14     identified and who had fired it?

15             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, I may put your cross-examination to a

16     stop if you continue to ask such a question.

17             Move on to your next topic.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             Could we now briefly look at P1058, please.

20             Can we zoom in on the central portion of this.  Or, rather, my

21     apologies, leave it as it is.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Would you agree with me that this is a map of the chief of staff

24     of the 12th Division Command?  Is that correct?

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Hayden.

Page 8961

 1             MR. HAYDEN:  The witness has previously answered that he had no

 2     contacts with the ABiH, did not visit any of their positions, had no

 3     contact with the military.  This is --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  But by chance, he may have noticed.

 5             Can you answer the question?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I'm not really the person who

 7     can confirm whether this is a map of the chief of staff.  I mean, it does

 8     say so on the map, itself.  It says, at the bottom right, "Chief of

 9     staff," Colonel So-And-So.  But whether this indeed his map or not, I

10     really don't know.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is a Prosecution exhibit, so

12     there is no reason to doubt it.

13             Now, could we zoom in on the part of the map, the area where

14     several incidents took place, and tomorrow we will clarify some other

15     parts.

16             Could we zoom in a bit further, the entire area below.  A bit

17     further, please.  Thank you.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Could you mark the television building here, please, and

20     Safeta Hadzica Street?

21        A.   No, I'm sorry, the print is too fine.

22        Q.   Can you see, at "102," there's the wire factory, and that's where

23     the television building is?  Are you familiar with this part of Sarajevo?

24        A.   Well, all I can do is read that below number "102 bbr," it says

25     "Goranka" neighbourhood, but perhaps the television building -- it's too

Page 8962

 1     small here, but it's possible that it's to the left of the digit "1" in

 2     the number "102."

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, I'm asking you again whether it is a

 4     proper and efficient use of time putting such question to the witness,

 5     who says -- who is not familiar with the military situation.  You can use

 6     this map in your submission, as much as you can, later on.  What's the

 7     point of putting this question to the witness?

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Can you tell us what the final conclusion of your investigation

11     was?  You can take a look at the report.

12             Can we have 1D2143.  I consider it very important for this

13     witness to be able to place the incident and its location.

14             Now, we will have to play this, because it hasn't been up-loaded

15     into e-court.  If you allow me to play 1D --

16             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Hayden.

17             MR. HAYDEN:  It's not for Mr. Karadzic to prove or disprove this

18     incident to this witness.  Therefore, it's not appropriate to have him

19     show to him where this position is, as Mr. Karadzic has just stated.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Let's move on.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we show this map from our

22     computer.  Very well.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Now, would you please mark the same buildings, the television

25     building, the factory, here on this map?  Can you see it now?  Or,

Page 8963

 1     rather, can you see the map of this place before you?

 2        A.   I cannot.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  I'm told that it is not possible to mark on this.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Is it possible to save it as it is?

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Can you see now the incident site?

 7        A.   I cannot.  What I see before me, on my screen, is just a form to

 8     enter case numbers, and description of case, and so on.

 9             Now I can see it.  I can see the facilities that you wanted me to

10     mark.

11        Q.   Well, could you then, please, put a circle around Geteova Street

12     and then the incident site?

13             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, I was told that it's impossible to

14     mark on this map.

15                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

17        Q.   Well, do you agree with me, then, that the television building

18     can be seen here, as well many factories, as well as two incident sites,

19     the Geteova Street and the Safeta Hadzica Street incidents?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And you investigated those two incidents, as well as the third

22     one on the building?

23             JUDGE KWON:  If necessary, and if you have a hard copy, you can

24     ask the witness to mark on the hard copy.

25             I note the time.  We'll adjourn for today.

Page 8964

 1             And you have to finish your cross-examination in 35 minutes

 2     today [sic].

 3             Mr. Tieger, yes.

 4             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5             In light of the cross-examination today, I'd just like to note

 6     that the next witness, as I related earlier, has been in The Hague for a

 7     considerable period, accommodating both the requests by the Defence --

 8     scheduling adjustments.  If we don't conclude tomorrow, he'll obviously

 9     have to be here until Tuesday.  I would note that for the purpose of

10     encouraging, if at all possible, the completion of his evidence tomorrow.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may respond.

12             I would request that -- at least one session tomorrow for this

13     witness.  And we were allowed four hours for the next witness, which is

14     insufficient.

15             JUDGE KWON:  No, you have to finish in half an hour tomorrow.

16             And we are supposed to sit from 9.00 to 2.30 tomorrow.

17             MR. TIEGER:  I had checked -- let me check the schedule once

18     more.  I didn't note that, but that's good to know.

19             JUDGE KWON:  I'll check the court schedule now, but we'll see how

20     we can manage.

21             Mr. Witness, have a nice evening.  But during the adjournment,

22     you are not supposed to discuss your testimony with anybody else.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand.

24             JUDGE KWON:  The hearing is now adjourned.

25             Tomorrow morning at 9.00.

Page 8965

 1                           [The witness stands down]

 2                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m.,

 3                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 4th day of

 4                           November, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.