1 Tuesday, 14 December 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
5 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everyone.
6 Yes, Mr. Robinson.
7 MR. ROBINSON: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
8 If I could just take a few minutes on two matters before the
9 witness testifies, one relating to our motion for binding order against
10 the United States and the other relating to this witness's testimony.
11 With respect to our motion for a binding order against the
12 United States, Dr. Karadzic notes, with sadness and regret, the passing
13 of Richard Holbrooke yesterday, and this will affect our request for a
14 binding order, because one of the items related to testimony that we
15 wanted to use in the hope that we would bring him as a witness in our
16 trial. And I was wondering if we could have leave to reply to the letter
17 of the United States before the Trial Chamber issues any scheduling order
18 so that we could clarify our request for binding order.
19 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Robinson.
20 In fact, I was about to ask you whether the Defence is minded to
21 withdraw some part of its motion, as indicated by the United States.
22 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, I think we would be withdrawing one of the
23 requests and perhaps modifying one of the other requests. And it would
24 be helpful if we could clarify that in writing, both to the Chamber and
25 to the United States.
1 JUDGE KWON: We can discuss it in public session?
2 MR. ROBINSON: Yes.
3 JUDGE KWON: And when do you think you can file it?
4 MR. ROBINSON: Today.
5 JUDGE KWON: So if you could do so, yes, leave is granted.
6 MR. ROBINSON: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
7 Turning to the testimony of Mr. Bell: When we interviewed him on
8 Sunday, we learned for the first time that he had given testimony under
9 oath in a case in Canada
10 subject of Count 11 of this indictment. The Prosecution doesn't have
11 that transcript, and neither do we, and so it's something that we'll have
12 to obtain in the future. I just wanted to put that on the record so that
13 in the event that something in that transcript causes us want to recall
14 him, we would make a motion at that time. I tend to think it's unlikely
15 in his particular case, but it's a recurring problem that we expect will
16 come up many times with witnesses who testified in Bosnia and some maybe
17 in Serbia
18 And we have a pending motion to order -- or to obtain witness testimonies
19 from national jurisdictions, and we would just make note this problem has
20 arisen in a concrete way with respect to Mr. Bell, and we would hope that
21 the Chamber could assist us in obtaining prior testimonies before
22 witnesses testify.
23 Thank you.
24 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Robinson.
25 There's one further matter I wanted to raise which was related to
1 the submission from the parties, the Prosecution and Defence, as regards
2 the judicial notice of authenticity of intercepts. I told the
3 Prosecution to file its submission by the end of this year, but actually
4 what I meant is by the end of the winter recess. And the Defence will
5 have a week from the receipt of the Prosecution's submission.
6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour, but we are actually
7 aiming to file earlier than that, before the Christmas break, actually.
8 JUDGE KWON: That's great. And if the Defence can file it
9 earlier, that would be welcome as well.
10 JUDGE MORRISON: On another topic, Mr. Robinson, it just occurs
11 to me that if it's possible, where the Defence has had an opportunity to
12 see a witness or potential witness and have an interview with him, and
13 notes have been taken of such an interview, it would be, I think, very
14 useful for all parties if those notes could be transcribed and sent to
15 the witness as soon as practicable after the interview that he or she has
16 had with the Defence to agree the content of them. I think we would
17 resolve issues which might otherwise arise by doing that. There's
18 obviously no obligation on the Defence to do that, but it just seems to
19 me to be a sensible course and is likely to shorten a witness's
20 appearance in court.
21 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Judge Morrison.
22 After the experience with Mr. Konings, we were seriously
23 considering doing that, and I think we will do that in the future.
24 JUDGE KWON: Let's bring in the witness.
25 [The witness entered court]
1 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, Mr. Bell.
2 THE WITNESS: Good morning, sir.
3 JUDGE KWON: If you could take the solemn declaration.
4 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
5 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
6 WITNESS: MARTIN BELL
7 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Bell.
8 If you could make yourself comfortable.
9 Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
10 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honours.
11 Examination by Ms. Edgerton:
12 Q. Good morning, Mr. Bell.
13 A. Good morning.
14 Q. Could you just please give us your full name?
15 A. My full name is Martin Bell.
16 Q. Now, Mr. Bell, you worked as a foreign affairs correspondent for
17 the BBC
18 A. That is correct.
19 Q. In fact, a foreign affairs war correspondent?
20 A. For much of that time, yes.
21 Q. Now, during that time, during those 30 years, and since, I
22 understand you've reported from about 100 countries and 15 war zones; is
23 that correct?
24 A. The prices of inflation, the number of war zones has gone up to
25 18 now.
1 Q. And among the wars and conflict situations you've covered around
2 the world, that list includes the Nigerian civil war, the Middle East
3 wars, the Vietnam war, the wars in Angola
4 first Gulf War in 1991, and the conflict in Croatia that same year;
6 A. That is correct.
7 Q. And from Croatia
8 Bosnia and Herzegovina, and you reported on events there from, as I
9 understand it, the referendum in February 1992, right through until the
10 implementation of the Dayton Accord.
11 A. That is true. There were periods when I was out of action. I
12 was briefly wounded, and that stopped me going back for about four
13 months. But otherwise, much of those three and a half years, yes.
14 Q. And we'll come back to that in a bit more detail very shortly,
15 but now I'd like to ask you whether you recall, in February 1996, giving
16 a statement to the Office of the Prosecutor regarding your observations
17 and experiences during the conflict in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
18 A. Yes, I do recall doing that.
19 Q. And following that, you also, did you not, testify here in this
20 Tribunal in 2007 and in 2009 as a witness during the trials of
21 Generals Dragomir Milosevic and Momcilo Perisic; is that correct?
22 A. Yes, that is correct.
23 Q. And, finally, do you recall in March 2010 signing a further
24 statement for the Office of the Prosecutor consolidating elements of that
25 previously-recorded evidence we've just been referring to?
1 A. Yes, that is correct.
2 Q. Now, that statement recorded your comments on a number of
3 video-clips, documents, and a map, did it not?
4 A. Yes, it did.
5 Q. And did it also refer to passages from a book you wrote on your
6 experiences reporting from Bosnia
8 A. Well, the main title was "In Harm's Way," and the subtitle was
9 "Confessions of a War Zone Thug," because I was once called one by a
10 rival producer in Sarajevo
11 Q. And the statement refers to some passages from that book;
13 A. Yes, that is correct.
14 Q. Did you watch each of the video-clips referred to in that
15 statement from March 2010?
16 A. Yes, I did.
17 Q. And did you recognise a large number of those clips as films of
18 your own reports and broadcasts?
19 A. Yes, most of them were from my own broadcasts between 1992 and
21 Q. And in those cases where they were not from your own broadcasts,
22 did you recognise or were you otherwise familiar with the scenes, the
23 situations, and the events that were depicted therein?
24 A. Yes. Some of them didn't have any voice-over at all, but I was
25 familiar with the events depicted.
1 Q. And now today, if I was to ask you the same questions which gave
2 rise to the information contained in that March 2010 statement, would
3 your answers be the same?
4 A. Yes, my answers would be exactly the same.
5 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
6 Now, Your Honours, 65 ter 22275 is a redacted version of
7 Mr. Bell's statement of 8 March 2010
8 the next Prosecution exhibit, please.
9 JUDGE KWON: Redacted on what parts? Could you clarify?
10 MS. EDGERTON: Indeed.
11 Parts that the Prosecution does not intend to rely on:
12 Paragraphs 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 --
13 JUDGE KWON: To 17?
14 MS. EDGERTON: Correct. Thank you.
15 JUDGE KWON: That will be admitted.
16 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1996, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
18 MS. EDGERTON:
19 Q. Now, Mr. Bell, just to go back to your CV for another very short
20 while --
21 JUDGE KWON: Do you like to offer some brief summary of his 92
22 statement for the public?
23 MS. EDGERTON: I was about to do that, Your Honour.
24 Just to go back to your CV for a very short while, I'd like now
25 to read this summary of the written evidence which is filed.
1 Mr. Bell, Martin Bell, was a war correspondent with the
2 British Broadcasting Corporation from 1966 to 1997. He covered and
3 reported on events in the former Yugoslavia
4 hostilities in Croatia
5 of the Dayton
6 On 9 April 1992
7 by Serb forces. Trying to reach Zvornik that day, he was caught up in a
8 flood of approximately 20.000 Muslim refugees fleeing from the attack.
9 He returned to Sarajevo
10 informed Lord Carrington's personal envoy, Mr. Colm Doyle, who then
11 raised this matter in a meeting with Dr. Karadzic.
12 Mr. Bell was stationed in Sarajevo
13 Bosnia and Herzegovina and filed numerous reports on the conditions in
14 the city. Among other things, he observed shelling and sniping in
15 civilian populated areas and severe deprivation caused by shortages of
16 food, water, gas and electricity. Of all the conflicts Mr. Bell has
17 reported upon, he states that in Sarajevo
18 distinction between soldiers and civilians when it came to targeting."
19 Mr. Bell himself was wounded in August 1992 by shrapnel from a mortar
20 while reporting near the Marsal Tito Barracks in Bosnian-held territory.
21 Among his many reports, Mr. Bell reported on the use of a
22 modified aircraft bomb in Hrasnica on 7 April 1995 and the attack on the
23 Markale Market on 28 August 1995
24 on the market would be impossible.
25 Over the course of the war, Mr. Bell conducted interviews with
1 leaders from all warring factions, including the accused, Dr. Karadzic.
2 On 25 April 1992
3 positions around Sarajevo
4 Trebevic, Dr. Karadzic confirmed that his forces could take the city at,
5 quote, "any time." In January 1993, Mr. Bell accompanied the UNHCR envoy
6 to Pale to protest the lack of humanitarian access to Zepa. In other
7 interviews with the accused, the discussion focused on territory, maps
8 and history.
9 Mr. Bell and others from the foreign media were cut off from Pale
10 from August 1994 onwards, after the rejection of the
11 Contact Group Peace Plan.
12 That concludes the summary.
13 Q. And now, Mr. Bell, again to go back to your CV, I have one
14 further question.
15 You indicated in your written evidence and in your previous
16 testimonies that you work as a goodwill ambassador presently for UNICEF.
17 Could you tell us what, as a goodwill ambassador, you do?
18 A. Yes. It is an honorary, unpaid job, and I go to the un-quiet
19 corners of the world, countries like Somalia and Yemen
20 cannot send its real celebrities, and I look at its projects and I
21 return, and I raise awareness of the programmes and I raise money for
22 UNICEF. And that's what the job is about.
23 Q. Since leaving the BBC
24 connections at all with the former Yugoslavia
25 A. Yes. Bosnia
1 back at a number of times. I have shown visitors around. I was once
2 there on a -- on a mission for UNICEF, and only earlier this year I was
3 doing a radio documentary, 30 years after the death of Marsal Tito, about
4 whether he might have been held, at this distance, responsible for the
5 wars that followed 10 years after his death.
6 Q. Thank you. I indicated we would come back to your coverage of
7 the conflict in Bosnia and Herzegovina in a bit more detail, and the
8 areas you reported from, and your time spent in the theatre, if we can
9 call it that. Could you set that out briefly for the Chamber? Where
10 were you based and where did you report from?
11 A. Initially, we were based in Ilidza, in Serb-held territory. Then
12 partly the reason for that was that the Holiday Inn had been damaged in
13 an earlier attack. When part of it had been repaired, we based ourselves
14 there for quite a while. During the side war between Muslims and Croats
15 from April 1993 to February 1994, I spent much time in Central Bosnia,
16 mostly based in Vitez or Kiseljak. Of course, I visited Tuzla and Mostar
17 from time to time. And when the Dayton Accords were implemented, I was
18 working with the IFOR out of Gornji Vakuf.
19 Q. You mentioned Ilidza and the Holiday Inn. Are these locations in
20 the Sarajevo
21 A. Yes, they are both locations in the Sarajevo area. The
22 Holiday Inn is right in the middle of things, between the old town and
23 the new. And Ilidza is -- Ilidza is in -- it was then in Serb-held
24 territory at that side of the city.
25 Q. Based in Sarajevo
1 percentage of your time or what percentage of time you spent reporting
2 from the city?
3 A. From the time I was there, it was -- it was a full-time
4 preoccupation, venturing -- and when I was in the Holiday Inn and,
5 indeed, when I was in Vitez, and sometimes when I was in Tuzla, I did all
6 I could to report from Republika Srpska as often as possible, and I would
7 go to Pale when I could. And I had regular contact with the accused,
8 whom I found most helpful, because I always felt that the key to a
9 settlement of this dreadful war lay very significantly with the Serbs.
10 In fact, I would add that I was regarded by some of my colleagues in the
12 Q. Well, let's explore a couple of points that you've just raised,
14 You've just indicated that you had -- you did what you could to
15 report from Republika Srpska, you felt that the key to a settlement of
16 this war lay with the Serbs, and you were regarded by some of your
17 colleagues in the press corps as pro-Serb. Perhaps you can tell us, what
18 was your approach, then, to reporting during your time in Bosnia and
20 A. Well, I was not a campaigning reporter. I was brought up in a
21 tradition of balanced and even-handed reporting, and I needed to find out
22 from the Serbs why they were doing what they were doing. And I felt from
23 the start and I have said repeatedly and have written that there was no
24 monopoly of suffering in this war and no monopoly of evil. Dreadful
25 things were done to people, and dreadful things were done by people. And
1 from start to finish, I have tried to be as fair-minded as possible.
2 Q. Thank you. Just to go back to a further point in your answer,
3 where you indicated you did what you could to report from
4 Republika Srpska, could you describe the nature of your access, then, to
5 the Bosnian Serb side of the confrontation lines? How was that achieved?
6 A. It was achieved by going through roadblocks, and certainly in the
7 early months of the war, that was still possible. I remember one day,
8 even when I was based in Vitez, which is in Central Bosnia, I -- we drove
9 our armoured Land Rover through the Ilidza roadblocks to Grbavica, and
10 there I was welcomed by one of the -- one of the commanders,
11 Mr. Djokanovic, who had been wounded twice in the war. He was a
12 journalist, and he showed me their front-lines. And the point I was
13 making in my report on that day was that Serbs also were targeted by
14 snipers, and Serbs also were victims of the war. And one of the iconic
15 images that stays had my mind is that of a -- of an uphill road in the
16 line of sniper fire. From the other side of the city and across the
17 upper floors of the houses from one side to the other were draped sheets
18 and blankets and rugs to help blind the snipers so that people could move
19 more freely.
20 Q. In order to gain entry to Bosnian Serb-held territory, you
21 indicated you needed to go through roadblocks. Did you need permission
22 from anyone? Did you have any letters of permission, for example?
23 A. At that stage in the war, no. We later needed letters of
24 permission from the Bosnian Army to travel outside Sarajevo or go
25 anywhere near front-lines in Sarajevo
1 would even say the first year or two of the war, we were able to get
2 by -- get through roadblocks just by showing our United Nations press
3 passes and sometimes submitting to being searched.
4 Q. Now, you've just -- in answer to my question about access to
5 Bosnian Serb-held territory, your response was:
6 "We needed letters of permission from the Bosnian Army to travel
7 outside Sarajevo
8 In order to access Bosnian Serb-held territory, did you need
9 permission from anyone or any organ?
10 A. Not at that time. We were, and certainly by 1993, when we
11 reached Pale, we were expected to check in to the Press Centre, which was
12 run by the daughter of the accused, and there we would receive
13 accreditation and ask for facilities, which sometimes we got and
14 sometimes we didn't, but it was quite informal, Ms. Edgerton. I mean, I
15 could walk up to near the Presidency, and one of the accused's assistants
16 would usually come out and talk to us, and over a cup of coffee we'd
17 learn what was going on. Access was reasonable. And from a journalist's
18 point of view, what was remarkable and welcome was that this is perhaps
19 the only war I've been in where we dealt with the main players nearly all
20 the time on the UN side -- and people like the accused were most helpful
21 to us, so was Dr. Koljevic, so was Alija Izetbegovic, so were the HVO,
22 the Croat Defence force in Central Bosnia. We were not mostly dealing
23 with, if I may say so, spin-doctors and spokesmen and with the like, but
24 with the main players.
25 Q. At any point in time, did the nature of that access to
1 Bosnian Serb-held territory change? Were you cut off?
2 A. Yes, it did change. We were cut off after the rejection of the
3 Contact Group Peace Plan in August 1994. We were shown the front-lines.
4 We were allowed to interview Bosnian Serb soldiers about why they
5 rejected the peace plan. And then we took our videotapes back to
7 to set foot in Pale, which was -- which was unfortunate for me because it
8 was harder then, having been cut off, to prevent -- to present an
9 even-handed account of the closing year and a bit of the war.
10 Q. In terms of, then, the type of reports that you and perhaps other
11 members of the press corps in Sarajevo
12 time, did this closure of access have any effect?
13 A. Yes, it did. I mean, there were two elements here. First of
14 all, my editors in London
15 the time it got into its third year. And, secondly, the
16 Bosnian Government forces became much more sensitive to what's known in
17 the military as field security. They were very sensitive to any video
18 of, shall we say, their mortars firing, their front-line positions,
19 anything that they felt might be of value to an enemy. But this is quite
20 normal in warfare.
21 Q. What, then -- you've just said it did have an effect. What,
22 then, was the effect on news coverage and news reporting coming from the
24 A. I think I lamented in my book that the access was confined and
25 all the journalists were working on an access of about a mile and a half
1 up and down the main street in Sarajevo
2 access. I tried to get access to the front-lines near Tuzla and failed,
3 I couldn't at that time have access to the Bosnian Serbs, and so it was,
4 from a journalistic point of view, a very frustrating time, especially
5 because the war - I'm talking now of the summer of 1995 - was as
6 intensive as it had been in the summer of 1992, but we had less access to
8 Q. You indicated that you were, as a result of your access to
9 Bosnian Serb-held territory, shown the front-lines around Sarajevo, I
10 presume. Did you have occasion to visit any sniping or heavy weapons
12 A. Yes, I did, I did. I visited two batteries of mountain guns in
13 January 1993, and, of course, just to take that -- that mountain road to
14 Pale, we were going past front-line positions with armed Bosnian Serb
15 soldiers, and we were -- we were welcome to stop. I mean, they would --
16 they would give us interviews. They were -- they were very friendly.
17 Q. Were you accompanied by Dr. Karadzic on this or any other visits?
18 A. I was on -- I was certainly on one visit. He was -- it was,
19 I think, Easter morning, and he was actually showing us the positions
20 and, I would say, making a -- making a peace statement for public and
21 diplomatic consumption, which was perfectly legitimate.
22 MS. EDGERTON: Perhaps we could have a look at your report of
23 this Easter morning visit, and that's 65 ter 40517E.
24 [Video-clip played]
25 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. We need to play it again. The
1 witness seems to have difficulty.
2 Okay, thank you. Shall we play it again.
3 [Video-clip played]
4 "Martin Bell: It was Easter morning by the Serbian Orthodox
5 calender and the Bosnian Serbs were celebrating more widely than they
6 used to in the Communist years. But with a special urgency --"
7 JUDGE KWON: Can you stop just a second. I'm wondering that is
8 being translated into B/C/S or whether you have a transcript.
9 Did you hear the translation, Mr. Karadzic?
10 THE ACCUSED: No, but I was following in English. But --
11 JUDGE KWON: Judge Lattanzi also didn't receive the French
13 MS. EDGERTON: The transcripts were delivered. Perhaps I could
14 just have a moment to speak with my colleague in this regard.
15 We did send the published transcripts around yesterday, so I hope
16 everyone has them. Because there's a number of transcripts, perhaps we
17 may need to hear from the booth that they've found the transcript for the
18 appropriate 65 ter number. So maybe I was a little too hasty to begin
19 playing the film.
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
21 Can I get confirmation from the booth?
22 THE INTERPRETER: The 65 ter numbers are not indicated on the
24 MS. EDGERTON: If I can have your indulgence for a minute, we'll
25 try and find a solution for this.
1 JUDGE KWON: If necessary, we're minded to take a short break,
2 five minutes, to resolve that issue.
3 MS. EDGERTON: If we could do that, Your Honour, I'll, with my
4 colleague, work as fast as I can to get this sorted out so that we could
5 proceed smoothly throughout the morning.
6 JUDGE KWON: Okay.
7 Sorry for the inconvenience, Mr. Bell. We need to take a break
8 for five minutes.
9 --- Break taken at 9.40 a.m.
10 --- On resuming at 9.50 a.m.
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton, let's continue.
12 MS. EDGERTON: Yes.
13 And my apologies, Your Honour, and my apologies to my colleagues.
14 I think we were all almost defeated by technology, and I think we have
15 solved this for the remainder of the day.
16 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
17 MS. EDGERTON: If I could ask my colleague Mr. Reid, again, if we
18 could try 65 ter 40517E from April 1992.
19 [Video-clip played]
20 "Martin Bell: It was Easter morning by the Serbian orthodox
21 calendar, and the Bosnian Serbs were celebrating more widely than they
22 used to in the Communist years. But with a special urgency to their
23 prayers for peace for their three weeks in to the bloodshed of civil war.
24 All the communities here have suffered. The Muslims perhaps most of all.
25 This village near the airport has been attacked by the Serbs and the
1 Federal Army, its mosque has been blitzed, eight of its people killed,
2 yet today the leaders of Bosnia
3 before leaving for Lisbon
4 "Karadzic: If we didn't have hope for political solutions, we
5 would already free Sarajevo
7 "Martin Bell: To make his point, and he did it vividly,
8 Mr. Karadzic took us on a tour of the Serb's front-line positions
9 overlapping Sarajevo
10 you.' The purpose of this high-visibility exercise was to show that the
11 Serbs were observing the cease-fire here and he said, intended to go on
12 doing so.
13 "Karadzic: We don't shoot. We try to just to keep peace and not
14 to -- to control the surrounding of Sarajevo."
15 "Martin Bell: You could take the city tomorrow, couldn't you?
16 "Karadzic: Any time."
17 "Martin Bell: This is the strengths of the Serbs position that
19 about anything, but if the Muslims want war, they can have war and the
20 city is indefensible.
21 "Martin Bell
22 MS. EDGERTON: I think the translation of the video is completed
24 JUDGE KWON: I agree.
25 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
1 Q. Mr. Bell, just a couple of questions about this clip.
2 First of all, do you recall where this position was that you had
4 A. Yes. These were the front-lines above Trebevic.
5 Q. And in the initial moments of this film, you showed Dr. Karadzic
6 making a comment to the effect that they would have freed Sarajevo
7 they didn't have hope for political solutions. Could you tell us where
8 that was filmed; do you recall?
9 A. I think that was when we first met him earlier that morning. We
10 had obviously been with him a little while, long enough for my cameraman
11 to take a ride in his car, where he gave the -- where he gave the Serbian
12 greeting. So it was sort of an ad hoc rolling press conference, if you
13 wish, at the time just before the Lisbon Conference, where he was clearly
14 and, I would say, legitimately on a peace offensive.
15 Q. What do you mean, Mr. Bell, when you describe a peace offensive?
16 A. It was common for all the leaders, especially the political
17 leaders, to blame others for the fighting and to show that they were
18 willing to search for peace and that they wanted peace. If you look at
19 it militarily, I would have thought, for the Serbs to have taken
21 And Sarajevo
22 destruction, but it could have been flattened as, shall we say, Vukovar
23 was in the -- in the Croatian war. So there was a -- there was always a
24 balance, I think. And I think that the Bosnian Serbs were, from the
25 start, looking for a solution that would be favourable to them.
1 Q. To your mind, did the encirclement of Sarajevo have -- by the
2 Bosnian Serb forces have any role to play in that regard?
3 A. Absolutely. If they could, in some way, bring the city to its
4 knees and more or less get the Bosnian Government to capitulate, then
5 they could have had peace on the best possible terms for them.
6 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
7 Could I ask that this 65 ter number, please, be the next
8 Prosecution exhibit, 40517E?
9 JUDGE KWON: You will tender only that portion of the video?
10 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, this being also the portion that's referred
11 to in Mr. Bell's statement.
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes. But the actual videotape, that started in
13 37 minutes 55 seconds, but when you tender it, you will tender only that
14 part or the entire video?
15 MS. EDGERTON: I'd like to tender, Your Honour, the video as
16 played in court.
17 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. That will be admitted.
18 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1997, Your Honours.
19 MS. EDGERTON: Now, Mr. Bell, you also mentioned visiting two
20 batteries of mountain guns in January 1993, and I'd like us to see your
21 report on that visit. That is 65 ter 40348H. And just for the sake of
22 everyone, perhaps we could have an indication from the booth that they've
23 been able to find the transcript before we begin playing.
24 THE INTERPRETER: The French booth has.
25 [Video-clip played]
1 "Martin Bell: Colonel Jovo Bartula of the Serbian-Bosnian Army
2 commands the big guns west of the city. Earlier in the war, he was named
3 a war criminal by the Bosnian Government, which he resents. He never
4 killed anyone, he says, in his whole life. Now he has it in his power to
5 flatten Sarajevo
6 direct or indirect fire. If it comes to a bombing of the Serbs as some
7 Americans had suggested, his guns would be as prime a target for them as
8 the city is for him.
9 "Are you concerned about the threat of Western intervention?
10 "Colonel: No, that threat only unifies us. Military
11 intervention, all their rockets and planes can't destroy us. The world
12 should understand that we are fighting for the right to
13 self-determination, the right to choose our own state and to live like
14 any other country in Europe
15 "Martin Bell: Three days earlier, his men had beaten off an
16 infantry attack. Now they are responding with cannon to machine-gun
17 fire. It is an active part of the line, and the UN's role is that of a
18 bystander in someone else's war. Here on the front-line, the prospects
19 for peace seem faint. The war is intensifying between Muslims and
21 MS. EDGERTON:
22 Q. Mr. Bell -- your indulgence, please.
23 Mr. Bell, do you have any comment on the line of sight into the
24 city from that weapons position, as it was depicted in this film?
25 A. Only that I think it shows very clearly how the city was at the
1 mercy of those heavy weapons, whether or not they would be -- would be
2 used. And if they had been used, then Colonel Bartula could actually
3 have seen the impact of his shells and recalibrated them accordingly.
4 And he was outraged, as I remember, to be -- have been called a war
5 criminal, because it was one of the features of this war, Your Honours,
6 that each side tended to regard the military commanders on the other side
7 as war criminals merely because of the position that they held.
8 We had great difficulty persuading him to make this statement,
9 but I think it showed very clearly the mindset of those soldiers and
10 those officers at that time.
11 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
12 Could I ask this clip, 40348H, be marked as the next Prosecution
13 exhibit, please?
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Exhibit P1998.
15 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
16 Q. Mr. Bell, I'm looking at -- in fact, I'm quite sure that each of
17 the many war and conflict areas you've reported from was unique in some
18 way. And looking back, I'm wondering whether there is or you recall some
19 feature peculiar to the nature of the conflict as it related to Sarajevo
20 A. Yes, I would make this point: First of all, it was the
21 centrality of civilians who would inevitably be caught up in a conflict,
22 fought with some quite modern weapons in a modern industrial city. And
23 the other point that struck me at the time is this was probably the first
24 occasion where -- in the history of warfare, where the weapons of mass
25 destruction were used at the same time that we had instruments of mass
1 communication to show the effects of this day by day in the living-rooms
2 of Europe
3 participants -- we journalists were inevitably participants as well as
5 Q. If I asked you to describe the situation for civilians in
6 encircled Sarajevo
7 Mr. Bell?
8 A. I would say they were subjected to three and a half years of an
9 appalling ordeal; not all the time. The fighting came and went.
10 Sometimes there were supplies and sometimes -- sometimes there were not.
11 And I would also say it was not just a question of being caught in the
12 cross-fire. There was deliberate targeting also on both sides of the
14 Q. Mr. Bell, I'd like to turn to an excerpt from a report you did in
15 January 1993 as part of a documentary programme for "Panorama." But
16 before we play that -- and for my colleagues in the booth, that's
17 65 ter 40348D. Before we play that, I wonder if you could tell us a bit
18 about this documentary programme for "Panorama" and the -- your
19 objective, as you crafted the programme.
20 A. "Panorama" is a long-form series of long-form topical
21 mini-documentaries. It provided me with the possibility of a month of
22 breaking away from the short-form, rushed, rather fragmentary, day by day
23 news coverage, and to spend time with the people, considerable time, to
24 see it from their point of view. There were two other -- in the back of
25 my mind, I had two other objectives as well. I wanted to document, as
1 far as possible, the scale of the killing in the early weeks and months
2 of the war, which was even then not widely known, so there were many
3 interviews with victims. And I also wanted to provide an understanding
4 of the position of the Serbs.
5 The section with the mountain guns and Colonel Bartula also came
6 from that documentary, which included scenes of a massacre of Serbs in a
7 village near Bratunac on the Christmas -- Orthodox Christmas Day of 1993,
8 so it was a complex mix of intentions that I had. But there was so much
9 going on, and I have a wonderful cameraman, and I think that the result
10 was -- it was truthful.
11 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
12 If we could now turn to 65 ter 40348D.
13 [Video-clip played]
14 "Martin Bell: The casualties are predominantly among the
15 civilians and here first is a sample of what life is like in a city where
16 even the road signs warn of sniper fire. Serbian snipers are perhaps
17 100-150 yards away in the Kosovo district, where people live right
18 against the front-line. There's no safe place, and lying low in such
19 shelters as there are isn't an option either, for the water is cut off,
20 and the only supply is in the basement of a block of flats. The cellar,
21 itself, is a kind of refuge, but every time they make the journey, which
22 for most of them has to be every day, the water-carriers coming and going
23 are in the line of fire. This day, the snipers have claimed one casualty
24 already and the word from outside is that they've hit another. And the
25 snipers are accurate. Before the war, this used to be a country of
1 hunting, but today [indiscernible]. The victim, this time is a man shot
2 in the leg, just turning the corner when the sniper got him. It happens
3 in this place every day and usually more than once. Nothing special but
4 an everyday hazard for people who have been under fire since April. Our
5 interpreter, who is also a doctor, binds up the wound. Shock is setting
6 in. This is Sarajevo
7 his companions put it, 'shot for a bucket of water.' It changes nothing
8 for the people of the district. After two casualties in one day, they
9 use the back route which is marginally less in the sniper's sights than
10 the front one. But they still have to fetch their water, and until
11 there's running water and peace, they will have to do it this way. We
12 pressed our armoured Land Rover into service as an ambulance, a kind of
13 luxury for people who, day in and day out, have neither protection nor
14 means of escape from life on the front-line. They tell us we'll be shot
15 at on the way out, and in this sector, that's a fairly safe prediction.
16 "The casualty rate varies from day to day, two dead on a quiet
17 day, as many as 20 under a heavier bombardment, many more injured, not
18 only among Muslims who tend to get much of the media attention but Croats
19 and Serbs as well."
20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters no longer have the transcript.
21 MS. EDGERTON: My apologies again, Your Honour. This was a
22 correction to the transcript which was amended last night. If I could
23 just have a moment.
24 Mr. Reid is printing now the correction of the transcript, and I
25 wonder if I could ask it be somehow distributed to my colleagues. And,
1 again, my apologies to them as well, and thanks for their understanding.
2 I wonder if I could ask Mr. Usher to deliver a copy to my
3 colleagues in the French booth.
4 May we continue?
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please, Ms. Edgerton.
6 [Video-clip played]
7 "Martin Bell: There is an everyday price being paid here for the
8 delay in finding a negotiated settlement, and, by and large, it's being
9 paid by the people without guns. This man was still arrive on arrival at
10 hospital, but only just. He died of shock.
11 "Most evenings, the fighting intensifies. Cannon fire here
12 against an office building in what remains of the city centre. The
13 survivors huddle for safety underground. There is no safe place in
15 now returned to its function of primitive shelter. Seventy people - all
16 it can hold - have been living here since the siege of the city began."
17 MS. EDGERTON:
18 Q. Mr. Bell, I have a couple of questions about this report, and
19 first I'd like to refer back to the scene where someone fetching water
20 was wounded by sniper fire. Was this a situation where someone was, as
21 you've alluded to before, caught in the cross-fire?
22 A. No. The man who was -- who was wounded had clearly been
23 targeted. We could have gone anywhere in the city that day. We just
24 chose this particular example, and we -- and we stayed there.
25 And I have to confess that after all these years, I still find
1 that report quite painful to watch. One effect was that I was
2 subsequently accused by elements in the British Government of being,
3 I think it was called, a founder member of the "something must be done"
4 club; that is, that the images, themselves, called for international
6 Q. In terms of the situation for civilians in the city, as you
7 observed it over the course of time, do you find this report of yours to
8 be an accurate depiction?
9 A. Yes, I'm confident that it is accurate and truthful. There was
10 no fiddling with the soundtracks. You can see the woman wincing when she
11 hears the sniper fire. There was -- this was the worst winter of the
12 war, the winter of 1992 to 1993, and I think that report conveys an
13 accurate picture of the suffering inflicted on innocent people.
14 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, could I have this clip, please,
15 40348D, as the next Prosecution exhibit?
16 JUDGE KWON: Exhibit P1999.
17 MS. EDGERTON:
18 Q. Mr. Bell, over the course of time during your time in Sarajevo
19 did you see any manifestations of a psychological effect on the civilian
20 population of these prolonged conditions?
21 A. This is just anecdotal, Ms. Edgerton, but I've never seen such
22 anxiety etched on everybody's faces. They lost weight. I would say some
23 of them looked almost gray with fear. It is -- we had it easy. We came
24 in and out. I would do, at the most, five, six weeks. They were there
25 all the time, with no means of escape and trapped in what appeared to be
1 a war -- a war without end. In fact, the interpreter I used, that
2 wonderful doctor, I believe her father killed himself at that time.
3 MS. EDGERTON: I'd like to turn at this moment to a video you saw
4 and spoke to during the course of your Dragomir Milosevic testimony,
5 65 ter 40425A, from 22 November 1994
6 again, if I could hear from the booth that they've been able to locate
7 the transcript.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, thank you.
9 THE INTERPRETER: We haven't been able to find it yet. Bear with
10 us for a second.
11 MS. EDGERTON: 40425A.
12 THE INTERPRETER: We have found it. Thank you.
13 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
14 [Video-clip played]
15 "Martin Bell: Out on the streets, his UN protection force was
16 actually doing some protecting. A slow-moving armoured personnel carrier
17 sheltering people against sniper fire."
18 MS. EDGERTON:
19 Q. Mr. Bell, you commented on this image in your written evidence as
20 being one of the iconic images, to your mind, of the war. Why was that?
21 A. Because it shows, in a very simple form, the fear of the people,
22 and they feel their only safe way - this is quite near the Holiday Inn -
23 of getting across that bit of open ground is in the cover of the French
24 armoured personnel carrier. And I will confess that in my commentary
25 about the UN Protection Force actually doing some protecting, there may
1 have been an element of implied frustration that they hadn't been doing
2 more sooner.
3 MS. EDGERTON: Could I ask for this as the next Prosecution
4 exhibit, please, Your Honours?
5 JUDGE KWON: Exhibit P2000.
6 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
7 Q. Now, Mr. Bell, I'd actually like to leave Sarajevo for a
8 moment -- a few moments and take you back to one of the first stories you
9 filed from Bosnia
10 Zvornik at the end of the first week of April.
11 Do you recall how you actually came to travel to Zvornik at that
13 A. Yes. We came from Belgrade
14 Zeljko Raznatovic, known as Arkan. And we came to Zvornik, and at that
15 time it was clearly on the verge of war, and I would say that the war
16 there was quite unstoppable. But I do remember doing a report about
17 Zvornik, a formerly mixed town, being on the edge of war.
18 MS. EDGERTON: Could we then go to 65 ter 40517B.
19 Q. And while we wait for everyone to find the transcripts, perhaps I
20 could ask you this, Mr. Bell: What gave you the impression that you've
21 just spoken about, that Zvornik was clearly on the verge of war and the
22 war was quite unstoppable?
23 A. Because we learned inside Zvornik, at the time when its Serbs had
24 left, that the police force had split, and I think there's a sequence in
25 the coffee shop where the men are talking of the imminence of war. These
1 are Muslim men.
2 MS. EDGERTON: My colleagues in the booth okay if we go to that
3 video now, 40517B.
4 THE INTERPRETER: All right for the B/C/S booth.
5 THE INTERPRETER: French booth is fine.
6 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
7 [Video-clip played]
8 "Martin Bell: There were reports today of fierce fighting in the
9 ancient town of Mostar in the south of Bosnia between Serbs and Croats.
10 Elsewhere between Serbs and Muslims. Though Sarajevo was quieter today,
11 it seems that the ethnic and political fabric of the republic is coming
12 apart day by day. An example, Zvornik on the Serbian border. It used to
13 be a mixed town of Serbs and Muslims, but in three days 95 per cent of
14 the Serbs have fled. The police force is split and front-lines are being
15 established just as they were in Croatia
16 peaceful co-existence between Muslims and Serbs in this town have come to
17 an abrupt end. The war here, says a local leader, can start any day.
18 Bosnians in the old town are angry, frightened, expecting to be attacked.
19 'The worst can happen,' he says, 'anything can happen.' Others blame
20 outsiders for stirring things up and the failure of their own political
21 leadership. It's their own town and it's as if the prison walls were
22 closing in on them. The Serbs on their side of the lines were taking in
23 suspects for questioning by the busload. The men on guard here were
24 members of the most disciplined of private armies, Commander Arkan's
25 volunteers. They have just accounted for 41 so-called Muslim extremists,
1 in an action in Bijeljina nearby. Mr. Arkan himself is not impressed by
3 "Arkan: The worst thing is that the Communists are back, slowly
4 coming back in power in Sarajevo
5 could see red flags. They are calling for Communist parties. They are
6 singing Communist songs, and I think that's -- that's wrong, the wrong
7 thing to go 50 years back."
8 "Martin Bell: Zvornik itself was part of Tito's Yugoslavia
9 that was a dream that died, and Bosnia
10 month ago, on the very brink of war.
11 "Martin Bell
12 MS. EDGERTON:
13 Q. Mr. Bell, is that the report you've just been discussing?
14 A. Yes, Ms. Edgerton, it is.
15 Q. I have a couple of questions about this film we've just seen.
16 You noted the presence of Arkan's men, and I wonder how you recognise
17 them to be Arkan's men.
18 A. I knew Arkan's men well from the war in Croatia. I had been to
19 their headquarters. I had even done a report on his volunteers being
20 baptised in the great cathedral in Dalj. I knew Arkan well. The
21 interview there was conducted in the ice cream parlour that he owned in
23 this report, so I had no difficulty in identifying them.
24 Q. You also spoke of an incident in Bijeljina, and you reported:
25 "They have just accounted for 41 so-called Muslim extremists in
1 an action in Bijeljina nearby."
2 Do you recall what information you had about the events in
3 Bijeljina and how you came to be aware of it?
4 A. The report was -- this report was edited in Belgrade. And when I
5 was in Belgrade
6 actually yielded one of the iconic still images of the war which appeared
7 on the front page of "Time" magazine. But I have no reason to doubt the
8 accuracy of that report and those figures.
9 Q. What was that still image you've just referred to?
10 A. It was one of Arkan's men with his foot on the body of one of the
11 Muslims in Bijeljina.
12 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, could I have this as the next
13 Prosecution exhibit, please?
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Exhibit P2001.
15 MS. EDGERTON: Now, Your Honours, before we move to another clip,
16 we're about one minute short, by the clock on my computer, from our break
18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
19 We'll have a break for half an hour and resume at 11.00.
20 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.
21 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
23 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honours.
24 Q. Mr. Bell, following this report, did you have occasion to return
25 to Zvornik?
1 A. Yes, I did. I believe it was the 10th of April, 1992
2 trying to do a report on the front-lines around Sarajevo, but I couldn't
3 get access. And then I thought these scenes in Zvornik, let's go and see
4 what -- I wanted to go to Zvornik, itself, because nothing is known of
5 what had happened there. So -- yeah, so I went, and I managed to get,
6 I think, some quite remarkable images on that day.
7 Q. What were those images?
8 A. They were images, first of all, of the fighting at Zvornik. They
9 came from my very brave Serbian cameraman, Dragan Hercegovic [phoen], and
10 from my camerawoman, Katherine Gisler [phoen], who was with me. We
11 witnessed the flight of Muslim refugees from the area 'round Zvornik in
12 very large numbers.
13 MS. EDGERTON: I'd like now to play that report you've just
14 referred to, which has 65 ter number 40517C.
15 [Video-clip played]
16 "Martin Bell: Serbian irregulars in action in Zvornik, a town
17 that used to be mixed and used to be peaceful. Today, it wasn't either.
18 These were not men of the Yugoslav Army, but of the most disciplined of
19 the Serbian militias under Commander Arkan. They were mopping up the
20 last of Muslim resistance. The Bosnian authorities, mainly Muslim, were
21 driven out of the town. They put their total dead at at least 300. That
22 may be an exaggeration, but casualties were certainly heavy. The Serbs
23 are now doing in Bosnia
24 an argument of self-defence to extend their control into the formerly
25 mixed areas. In fact, they're making Greater Serbia happen. In a
1 village two miles south of Zvornik, we came upon the human calamity,
2 which is the practical result of all this. Two-thousand Muslims are
3 stranded and struggled to get out. They spoke of the fighting they left
4 behind them, the murder and hostage-taking which went on.
5 "But everything are happening now. They have been happening
6 since two, three days. It is a terrible [indiscernible] which has been
7 made and which is being made right now. You can hear even now some
9 "Martin Bell: We could, and so could the refugees waiting for
10 rescue. The artillery barrage was creeping towards us in the villages of
11 the Muslim side of Zvornik.
12 "What is happening," she says, "is we are unarmed and they are
13 firing at us.'"
14 "Martin Bell: He begs the world to help them against the
15 aggression of the Serbs and the federal army. The cry as we leave is
16 again for help as quickly as possible, and the applause is only because
17 we are the first sign they had in days that anyone out there cares about
18 their plight. Numbers are difficult to estimate, but in single file on
19 mountain paths and great columns in the wider tracks, it's possible that
20 as many as 20.000 people are on the move, most of them by foot.
21 [Indiscernible] has been walking for two days, they've gone 18 miles and
22 have at least another 20 to go along this trail of tears. They are
23 heading for the safety of the Muslim area without any help. No food, no
24 medicine, no transport, but all they were talking about was the actions
25 of Serbs in their town of Zvornik
1 "They killed all peoples. Some peoples from the Serbian forces
2 have something like a wire put on their neck and they pull."
3 "Martin Bell: It is a great and tragic displacement of people,
4 thousands of them being driven from their homes for no other reason than
5 the Muslims are weaker and the Serbs are stronger and the ethnic map of
7 European Community, to the United Nations and the Commissioner for
8 Refugees. There's not a sign here, of any of them.
9 "Martin Bell
10 MS. EDGERTON:
11 Q. Mr. Bell, I have a couple of questions for you about this report.
12 You referred to your very brave cameraman as being the man
13 responsible for the first part of this film. Do you know where it was
15 A. Yes. It was -- it was shot in Zvornik. That would have been the
16 municipal building. And that was certainly Arkan saluting the --
17 saluting the flag.
18 Q. You also mentioned the figure of 300 casualties. Do you recall
19 what information you received to that effect?
20 A. This was information that I received from Dragan Hercegovic,
21 because he then went back to Belgrade
22 there. But this was then seen in Belgrade
23 he disputed the figure, and so I then did another report the next day,
24 really to save Dragan from retaliation, making some reservations about
25 the numbers.
1 Q. How did you come to know that Arkan was upset and disputed the
3 A. Because Dragan Hercegovic called me that night and told me, and I
4 said I would do what I could to help.
5 Q. When you say you did another report to save Dragan from
6 retaliation, what kind of retaliation were you speaking of?
7 A. I was speaking of intimidation. They could have beaten him up,
8 they could have -- they could have killed him. And so the next day, I
9 filed a report in which I said the Serbs absolutely deny any massacres of
11 Q. When you said, in this report, that the ethnic map of Bosnia
12 being re-drawn, what did you mean?
13 A. These were the early days of the war. This was, I think, the
14 first visual evidence we had of what came to be known as ethnic
15 cleansing. I mean, the sheer numbers involved were -- were very great,
16 and this report did have a considerable impact, and, actually,
17 Your Honours, it still does.
18 Earlier this year, I received a letter from a man in Canada
19 had been the little baby dressed in green, carried in the arms of a man
20 in that great file of the thousands, and this Canadian, he told me that
21 his -- that the man was his uncle, who'd later been killed in the war,
22 and he was grateful, at least, for the existence of this report because
23 it was the only evidence they had of what had happened at that time. And
24 I wrote back to him, wishing to God that the rest of his life could be
25 more peaceful than the beginning of it.
1 Q. Did you bring the matter of what you had seen and reported on in
2 the clip we've just viewed to anyone's attention?
3 A. Yes. We drove as fast as we could from Tuzla to Ilidza, and I
4 was editing this footage on the first-floor room that we had, when we saw
5 an official car pull up. And I went rushing down to the reception of the
6 hotel, and it was Colm Doyle, the representative of Lord Carrington. And
7 before he'd even checked in, I took him aside and told him what had
8 happened, and I said I thought he should bring it to the attention of
9 Dr. Karadzic.
10 Q. Do you know whether or not that ever happened?
11 A. I believe that it -- that it did happen, though, in fairness, I
12 mean, I just wanted Dr. Karadzic to know what was -- what was going on.
13 These were the -- the fighting, so far as we know, had been done by
14 Arkan's paramilitaries, which were certainly not at any time under the --
15 under the control of the accused in this case.
16 Q. How would you know that?
17 A. Because I knew Arkan. Arkan took orders from nobody, nobody. He
18 was -- he had a very tense relationship even with the -- even with the
19 JNA. Having said that, he couldn't have got across the border through
20 the roadblocks without some collusion somewhere and somebody letting his
21 men across. But, you know -- and, you know, I knew this guy really well.
22 He used to describe me as his friend, which was putting it a bit much.
23 But, no, I knew him really well. I knew his mind, Ms. Edgerton.
24 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
25 Could we have this clip, then, Your Honours, 65 ter 4051C [sic],
1 as the next Prosecution exhibit, please.
2 JUDGE KWON: Exhibit P2002.
3 MS. EDGERTON:
4 Q. Now, you referred, Mr. Bell, to a further interview that you
5 conducted -- a further report that you made to protect or to save your
6 cameraman from retaliation of some kind. Did that report include an
7 interview with Dr. Karadzic?
8 A. Yes, it did. I can't remember where the interview was shot,
9 because by then I believe he'd taken off to Pale. It must have been shot
10 around there at some time. He was no longer in Sarajevo at that time.
11 Q. Do you recall, by any chance, what you might have had to do to
12 arrange that interview?
13 A. It may have been shot by the Sarajevo agency pool. It may have
14 not even -- at 18 years' distance, I can't remember, even, whether I
15 arranged it myself. But I certainly didn't need a spokesman from that
16 side to explain their view of what was going on in these very volatile
17 early days of the war.
18 MS. EDGERTON: I'd like now to go to 65 ter 40517D, the report
19 that we've just been discussing. 40517D.
20 I just see, Your Honours, that one of the booths doesn't have a
21 copy. So Mr. Reid will print that up, and we'll make sure they have it.
22 [Video-clip played]
23 "Martin Bell: It's estimated here that fighting has been going
24 on in 17 different parts of Bosnia
25 Today's hotspot was Visegrad. This is the voice of a Muslim extremist
1 who has taken over a dam on the River Drina and is threatening to blow it
2 up. If he does, it will cause incalculable damage to the valley below,
3 which includes the town of Zvornik
4 past two
5 their side, too, although they get less attention, and they absolutely
6 deny the reports of massacres of civilians. What is certain is that
7 every day there are thousands of refugees, Serbs, Croats and Muslims,
8 driven from their homes in mixed communities and seeking somewhere safer.
9 The leader of the Serbs here speaks of Bosnia as being already divided
10 into three."
11 "Karadzic: In Serbian part of Bosnia-Herzegovina, there is no
12 war, there is no mess, there is no chaos. There is law and order, there
13 is state functioning. In Muslim Bosnia-Herzegovina, there is chaos. In
14 Croatian Bosnia and Herzegovina
15 "Martin Bell: In the new and dangerous realities here, it is the
16 civil of all communities who are suffering, and their political leaders,
17 so far from negotiate, are hardly speaking to each other.
18 "Martin Bell
19 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
20 Q. Mr. Bell, in this video-clip, we heard Dr. Karadzic say to the
21 effect of "in the Serbian part of Bosnia-Herzegovina, there is no war, no
22 mess, no chaos." What did you understand him to be describing when he
23 referred to the Serbian part of the former republic?
24 A. I imagined he was referring to what you'd call the Serbian
25 heartlands, rather than to formerly mixed towns like Zvornik, Visegrad,
1 Foca. The reference would have been to the Serbian heartlands.
2 Q. Those areas -- did you have any information as to what was going
3 on in those parts of the former republic that were ethnically mixed;
4 Zvornik, Visegrad, Foca and elsewhere?
5 A. Not sufficiently. I've always had reservations about
6 broadcasting reports of atrocities, because they can merely make things
7 worse, and if they are unfounded, it's irresponsible. And one of the
8 reasons that in the "Panorama" programme I was talking about earlier we
9 interviewed a lot of victims, it was because in these early days, we had
10 just rumours of what was going on. And when I discovered what actually
11 had been going on, which was targeted killing and people being taken away
12 from some of these communities in buses, and the buses would then be
13 riddled with bullets, what we broadcast in these early days was very
14 fragmentary and incomplete, but it wasn't false.
15 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
16 Could this clip, please, 40517D, be the next Prosecution exhibit?
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P2003, Your Honours.
19 MS. EDGERTON:
20 Q. Now, Mr. Bell, you mentioned, in discussing this last clip,
21 something called the Sarajevo
22 A. This was an innovation for which I was partly responsible. The
23 early fighting was so chaotic as the front-lines were established, and
24 there were at that time two principal news agencies -- television news
25 agencies, WTN, World Television News, and VIZ News, which later became
1 Reuters, and their cameramen would compete with each other and offer
2 their material to Eurovision every day, as would we. But for the
3 agencies, there was a -- there was a winner and a loser every day, and
4 they were being impelled by commercial imperatives to take -- in my view,
5 to take ridiculous risks. And so I suggested a meeting of them and us
6 and the other national broadcasters, and we came up with the idea that
7 any material shot by any of our cameras would then be available to
9 Now, the news agencies in London didn't like this altogether.
10 One of them called the cameraman in Sarajevo and said, Have you guys lost
11 the killer instincts? That's what he actually said. But the case for it
12 was so overwhelming that the Sarajevo
13 about the 22nd of April, and it -- and it saved lives. And it remained
14 in operation -- this syndicate, if you like, of news agencies, it
15 remained in operation until the summer of 1995, when it was ended by
16 Reuters. I felt it was a constructive and life-saving experiment.
17 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
18 I'd like to play another film clip, then, also drawn from the
19 exhibits in your consolidated statement, 65 ter 40348G.
20 [Video-clip played]
21 "Martin Bell: In Sarajevo
22 but lived through day by day. This is a particularly heavy bombardment
23 on the old city. A single artillery shell fell on a queue of people
24 waiting to pick up water outside the brewery. Eight were killed, 18
25 seriously injured. Of the dead, three came from one family, the mother
1 and father who were killed instantly and the daughter who died later in
3 MS. EDGERTON:
4 Q. Mr. Bell, this is one of your reports drawn from the "Panorama"
5 programme in January 1993. But what I'd like to ask you is: Is this a
7 A. I believe it is. I can't be for sure at this distance, but the
8 cameramen was on the ground very quickly, and they -- they were in that
9 area much of the time, so I would think it probably -- it probably was,
11 Q. How is it that cameramen were able to be in the city centre, on
12 the ground, as you put it, so very quickly if there was an incident to
13 report on?
14 A. Well, it was their -- it was their business. Most of the -- much
15 of the serious fighting happened between the -- roughly, the Holiday Inn
16 and the Bascarsija, the old town. And, you know, we knew when there
17 might be an up-surge in the fighting, because there often was, just
18 before a cease -- one of the many cease-fires came into effect or when
19 there was a distinguished foreign visitor visiting the Presidency. The
20 Presidency was once rather famously attacked when Mr. Akashi was inside
21 it. So some of these things were almost predictable.
22 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
23 Could we have this 40348G, please, as the next Prosecution
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
1 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit P2004, Your Honours.
2 MS. EDGERTON:
3 Q. Now, Mr. Bell, earlier today you noted that, based on your
4 observations and your recollection, the war around Sarajevo was, in the
5 summer of 1995, as intensive as it was in the summer of 1992. Do you
6 recall that?
7 A. Yes, I do.
8 MS. EDGERTON: I would like to now play you two of your reports,
9 one from 1992 and one from 1995, and, following that, ask for your
10 comment, please.
11 The first one is 65 ter 40372C, and it dates from June 22nd,
13 [Video-clip played]
14 "Martin Bell: In the two days since the United Nations withdrew
15 from the airport, the city has been under almost constant bombardment.
16 The firing has gone both ways, since it is not defenceless, but we have
17 watched as the Serbs, in effect, walked their mortar fire across Sarajevo
18 and on to the old town. And then at lunchtime today, a round fell
19 directly in the middle of the main shopping street. In spite of
20 everything, people do go out in large numbers at this time of day, and
21 the mortar claimed its victims at random among them. This is the second
22 time there has been an attack of this kind, and it has to increase the
23 pressure for outside armed intervention. Nothing else is working. This
24 was the same street a short time later, the dead and the injured had been
25 taken away, the mortar bombs kept on falling. To say that the daily life
1 of these people is intolerable is understatement. There is no safe place
2 or time. This house was hit last night for the third time. The woman
3 inside had lost her son in the war and saved her grandchildren by minutes
4 when she sent them underground to safety. At the best count we have,
5 there are 52.000 children trapped in this hell hole.
6 "She'll stay where she is. She has nowhere to go and nowhere
7 else to take them."
8 "Martin Bell: The business of Sarajevo is survival. Its people
9 have neither hope of escape, nor thought of surrender.
10 "We are all united here to fight for the freedom of our state,
11 even the children [indiscernible] what's going on here."
12 "Martin Bell: After today's attack, survivors scramble to get on
13 board the one-and-only bus from the city centre. Any lull in the
14 bombardment is a short one. In previous times, there's always been some
15 hope of mediation. Either the European Community Observers were here or
16 the United Nations. Now the EC Observers have gone away, and the UN has
17 suspended most activity until 48 hours passed without any fighting.
18 Forty-eight hours? There's hardly five minutes here.
19 "Martin Bell
20 MS. EDGERTON:
21 Q. Mr. Bell, do you have any comment that you wish to make on this
22 film from 22 June 1992
23 A. I think it shows quite vividly the helplessness of the people and
24 the extent to which they had been abandoned by the international
25 community. I mean, it shocks me now, looking back on it, to think that
1 the UN should have suspended its activities for 48 hours. It should have
2 intensified its activities. I think it outrageous that this war was left
3 to play itself out for three and a half years. And I've thought a lot
4 about this, Ms. Edgerton, and to me the blame lies also with the -- with
5 the Western democracies, who didn't care enough about the people or
6 understand that everyone's safety was threatened by this fire burning in
7 a part of our common European home.
8 Q. Could you tell us how widely reports of yours like this would
9 have been disseminated across Europe
10 A. Very widely, depending on the -- on the nature of the report at
11 the time. It was such a dangerous place that many news organisations
12 tended not to send their staff there. But we had a satellite dish first
13 in Ilidza and then at the television station from which reports were sent
14 out all over Europe
15 of my reports were used by the BBC
16 Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, the Australian Broadcasting
17 Corporation, and my reports were used initially quite a lot by NBC, then
18 when the contracts changed, by ABC of America. So, yes, they went a long
19 way beyond the shores of the United Kingdom.
20 Q. In your discussions with the accused, did you ever have occasion
21 to talk about any number of these reports that you had made about the
22 situation in Sarajevo
23 A. I think the accused was well aware of these -- of these reports.
24 I believe on one occasion, I don't know if it was one of my reports,
25 there was a report on the BBC
1 quite reasonably he had the number of the BBC 6.00 News, and I believe he
2 phoned. I mean, this was -- this was, in a sense, open coverage of an
3 open war among the people, and I'm sure that he was well aware of what we
4 were reporting.
5 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
6 If we could have this clip, please, 40372C, as the next
7 Prosecution exhibit.
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
9 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P2005, Your Honours.
10 MS. EDGERTON: Could we move on now to 40511A, a report of yours,
11 Mr. Bell, from June of 1995.
12 [Video-clip played]
13 "Martin Bell: The United Nations here has lost all contact with
14 the Bosnian Serbs, yet the Serbs want to open talks with the contacts
15 group, whose peace plan they have rejected, about the hostages and about
16 security guarantees. This may be an attempt to blitz their way back to
17 the conference table, but they do seek an end to their isolation.
18 "The Serbs are not doing well militarily. They've called for
19 volunteers to hold the line on one battle-field, and near Brcko they've
20 failed in an offensive to widen the corridor connecting the two parts of
21 their territory. They're also responding by tightening the noose on the
22 capital. For the people here, it's like a return to the worst of times.
23 The Serbs have cut off both power and water. The people of Sarajevo
24 been here before. They have learned to improvise and need all the best
25 friends they can find.
1 "Martin Bell
2 MS. EDGERTON:
3 Q. Mr. Bell, how was this, to your mind, a return to the worst of
4 times in June of 1995?
5 A. Because there was no cease-fire, by the summer of 1995 -- by May
6 1995, the fighting was intensifying, not just because the Serbs were
7 pressing whatever advantage they had, but because the Bosnian Government
8 forces were seeking to break the encirclement of the city both from
9 inside and outside. I mean, there were offensives. There was some days
10 when we were sure there was a higher volume of fire going out of the city
11 from inside than was coming into the city from outside. And there was
12 one offensive, particularly, in which Bosnian Government forces, up this
13 slope, managed to get across the main road that we used to go from
14 Lukavica, the Serb barracks there, to Pale. It was a -- they were beaten
15 back, but there was -- there was some serious and, I would say, suicidal
16 assaults by Bosnian Government forces. And we knew the extent of them
17 from the many death notices in the newspaper "Oslobodjenje."
18 Q. And when you referred to a return to the worst of times, what
19 period of time were you referring to?
20 A. I was referring to that dreadful first summer of the war, when so
21 many of the worst atrocities occurred, the level of fighting, the amount
22 of incoming fire. And, of course, that continued through the winter, as
23 you saw with the report that I showed -- you showed from the
24 water-carriers under fire from "Panorama." But the level of fighting was
25 never constant throughout the three and a half years. There were
1 cease-fires, there was the Jimmy Carter-brokered peace deal, and it was
2 as if it followed a pattern that both sides would use a winter lull, say,
3 from December to March to replenish, to re-equip, and to prepare for the
4 coming offensive, and that's what happened in the spring of 1995.
5 Q. This broadcast also referred to Bosnian Serb forces tightening
6 the noose on the capital. What did you mean to convey by that?
7 A. I mean, when they -- when they cut off the -- when they cut off
8 the gas, when they didn't allow UNHCR convoys through, then they were
9 tightening the noose.
10 Q. Did events in Bosnia
11 effect on events in Sarajevo
12 A. I think I noted somewhere that events in Sarajevo were like a
13 barometer of what was happening elsewhere, but that may have been wishful
14 thinking, because we were able to travel out less and less as the war
15 continued. But we were aware of substantial changes in the -- in the gap
16 against the Croatian border, when the towns of Grahovo and Glamoc fell.
17 We were aware of an incredibly complex situation in the Bihac area, to
18 which I had no access, but where there were five different forces
19 fighting. And the Serbs were first pushed back, and then they recovered
20 a lot of ground. And the only access we had to what was happening was
21 through their television. In my book, I call it "soldier vision." It
22 was usually shot by a soldier. But for us, Sarajevo was, I suppose,
23 always the center of things, because we were -- we were, for long
24 periods, unable to travel out to work and not -- I mean, the most
25 frustrating time, I think, was the summer of 1995, when -- after
1 Srebrenica had fallen, and we could give no account for many weeks of
2 what might have happened.
3 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
4 Could this video, 65 ter 40511A, be the next Prosecution exhibit?
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P2006, Your Honours.
7 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
8 And, Mr. Bell, I'd like to close with one of your further reports
9 taken from the "Panorama" programme in 1993, and it has the 65 ter number
11 And for my colleagues in the booth, that was the last transcript
12 you received.
13 [Video-clip played]
14 "Martin Bell: Just a year ago, before the war, Sarajevo
15 pride in its diversity. Mosques, churches and synagogues nestled
16 companionably across the fault lines of two old empires. Now there's
17 more than a city destroyed, a way of thinking too. In place of the old
18 one: Love and let live, is the new one: Kill or be killed. The place
19 has become a city of the dead, as the graveyards advance on the centre.
20 First one park was filled up, then another. Now the dead are buried on a
21 football field, within line of sight of Serbian snipers and easy range of
22 the mortar bombs. The Bosnian Government admits having lost 2.300 of its
23 fighters in the defence of the city, the Serbs at least as many. They,
24 too, have cemeteries filling up under fire. There are no winners here."
25 MS. EDGERTON:
1 Q. Do you have any comments you wish to make on this last
2 video-clip, Mr. Bell?
3 A. Yes. Again, it is a -- it is a reflection and, I'd even say, a
4 lamentation on the war. It was my considered conclusion for the
5 "Panorama" programme. What you're seeing here is virtually the death of
6 a city, or at least you're seeing the death of a city as it used to be,
7 and you could still see the scale of the fighting in the acres of graves.
8 And I've always thought that this terrible war didn't have to happen. It
9 could have been averted.
10 Now, most of what you saw there were the graves of Muslims. If
11 you were to go to the Bosnian Serb town of Sokolac, they've got a --
12 they've got a very moving cemetery there, where so many -- there are
13 thousands of their soldiers are killed. And I may have got a bit too
14 emotional about it. I tried not to in that report. But I thought then,
15 and I think now, Ms. Edgerton, what a terrible waste of lives.
16 MS. EDGERTON: That's the examination-in-chief, Your Honours.
17 And at this point, I would just ask that those associated
18 exhibits, not already tendered into evidence during Mr. Bell's in-chief,
19 be marked as further Prosecution exhibits.
20 JUDGE KWON: We'll first deal with the exhibit that has been
21 played in the courtroom. We'll admit -- we'll give the number for that.
22 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit P2007, Your Honours.
23 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
24 JUDGE KWON: I was advised that there are some video footage, the
25 transcript of which does not match with the actual video, so I will ask
1 the Court Deputy or Legal Officer to communicate with you to sort it out
2 in due course.
3 Are there any objections from the Defence?
4 So those associated exhibits that have not yet been admitted will
5 be admitted and given numbers by the Court Deputy and circulated to the
6 parties in due course.
7 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
8 And my apologies, again, for the situation with the transcripts
9 to everyone.
10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Ms. Edgerton.
11 Now, Mr. Karadzic, it's for you to cross-examine Mr. Bell.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.
13 Good morning, everyone.
14 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
15 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Bell.
16 First of all, I'd like to express my gratitude to you for meeting
17 with the Defence team, and I hope it will enable me to make this
18 cross-examination shorter and smoother.
19 You are, perhaps, my best opportunity, in view of your experience
20 from many wars, to present a picture of the real nature of the war in
21 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Do you agree?
22 A. That may well be so, sir.
23 Q. Thanks. Looking at the list of all the wars from which you
24 reported, some of them are quite similar, others are quite different.
25 There were wars where professional armies were involved, militias, and in
1 others, civilians waged war. Do you agree that the Bosnian war resembled
2 most the war in El Salvador, out of the list of wars where you worked as
3 a reporter?
4 A. I believe, Mr. Karadzic, there's some truth in that, in that it
5 more closely resembled civil wars than it did what the military analysts
6 call industrial wars fought by formations of regular units against each
7 other to achieve a decisive result. But I would go on to say that
8 I think the war in Bosnia
9 witnessed, both for its ferocity, for the difficulties in bringing it to
10 a close, for the lack of distinction between soldiers and civilians, and
11 for long periods I felt that for all the -- that the Geneva Conventions
12 might not have existed, because they didn't seem to apply to it.
13 Q. Thank you. I noted a passage from your evidence, in addition to
14 what you said about the lack of distinction between soldiers and
15 civilians, and that is that civilians were trapped in this war. Let me
16 ask you: Were you aware that a large number of fighting men on both
17 sides, especially on the Muslim side, called today the federation, were
18 waging war in civilian clothing?
19 A. I believe that certainly happened in the early weeks of the war,
20 when, apart from the JNA, there were no regular formations anywhere,
21 except maybe the Territorial Defence. What we found, as the front-lines
22 solidified around Sarajevo
23 clothes. But then on both sides, something more recognisable as regular
24 forces emerged. But there were also -- there were armed criminals as
25 well who, I think, used this period of anarchy for their own purposes.
1 Q. Thank you. On the issue of trapping of civilians, would you
2 agree that restricting movement and transferring civilians into safer
3 areas also contributed to the suffering of civilians and that installing
4 military infrastructure and military targets in civilian areas also
5 contributed to civilian suffering?
6 A. Well, first of all, Dr. Karadzic, many of the civilians who were
7 able to fled for their own safety. This was the case with the scenes
8 that were shown near Zvornik. As far as Sarajevo was concerned, it
9 became, of course, a city at war. Its established military barracks were
10 both -- used by United Nations contingents. And, yes, any city at war
11 will be a militarised city, but even in those circumstances I can see no
12 justification -- I mean, obviously civilians will be caught in the
13 cross-fire in such a situation, but I can see no justification for either
14 side or any side in any war targeting civilians.
15 Q. Thank you. We agree on that completely, and we are not trying to
16 justify anything. We will just be trying to understand, and you will be
17 a very precious witness in this attempt to understand what was going on.
18 You underlined another peculiarity of this war, compared to other
19 wars that you witnessed, and that is what you called a deep historical
20 background, richer than in other wars. Did you mean the ethnic
21 components, the components of civil war after the First and especially
22 after the Second World War?
23 A. Yes, Dr. Karadzic. I believe that the -- I mean, the history of
24 the peoples of Bosnia
25 Serbs, and I - this is not in any way critical of the Serbs - rather
1 admire them for it. But you live your history like no other people on
2 earth. I mean, you go back to 1389. And, of course, when I first
3 arrived -- when we first met in March 1992, I was pretty well aware of
4 the complexity of the past, especially the wartime experiences. I had
5 already worked, you understand, in the Croatian war, and I was aware of
6 what had happened in the concentration camp at Jasenovac. I was aware of
7 the suffering of your people, and I don't think it would have been
8 possible to operate as a reporter for these three and a half years in
10 discovering even more as I -- as I went along. And that's said in a most
11 respectful way.
12 Q. Thank you very much for this. Would I be right in believing that
13 you also came to realise that the anxieties and fears of various peoples
14 in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and I'm particularly familiar with those of
15 the Serbs, were genuine and derived from the Second World War, which was
16 not that long ago?
17 A. Yes, Dr. Karadzic, indeed I do. This was -- this understanding
18 was with me -- was with me all the time. And I came to believe that
19 Tito's attempt to fashion a republic of brotherhood and unity, although
20 it probably became closer to realisation in Bosnia than anywhere else,
21 and I think I'm right in saying there was more inter-marriage in Bosnia
22 I think it was perhaps doomed to fail simply because of the folk memory
23 of those terrible events in the Second World War.
24 Q. Thank you. You took the position that after the events in
1 A. Yes, Dr. Karadzic, I have argued repeatedly that -- as
2 Lord Carrington did, that when the European Community agreed to the
3 recognition of Croatia
4 Lord Carrington warned that it could well be the small spark that ignites
5 the powder keg of Bosnia
6 And when I lay the blame for what happened beyond the peoples and armies
7 of Bosnia
8 and specifically my own government, bear some burden of responsibility.
9 In fact, I can tell you that after I left Bosnia, I fell into politics in
10 the United Kingdom and became briefly a member of Parliament, and this
11 was one of my motivating forces. I thought, If this is how little
12 politicians can do, maybe I can try to do better as a politician.
13 Q. Thank you. Did you get the impression - and I believe you
14 discussed this - that the rest of Europe
16 recognise -- to recognise Croatia
17 but they did it?
18 A. Yes, Dr. Karadzic, this is -- this remains controversial, but I
19 note that the concession given by the British to the Germans over the
20 recognition of Croatia
21 Hans-Dietrich Genscher, were pressing for it, that concession coincided
22 within two weeks with a concession by the Germans to the British over the
23 opted-out clauses of the Maastricht Treaty, which were then controversial
24 within the British Conservative government under pressure from its Euro
25 skeptics. And after that meeting, John Major, a decent man, the,
1 prime minister, went back to the House of Commons, having secured these
2 concessions, and announced, in the tennis metaphor, Game, set and match.
3 I think that decision cast some very long shadows.
4 Q. Thank you. In the course of our interview, I presented to you
5 our theory that Yugoslavia
7 be taken out from under German pressure. And then later on, Slovenia
8 came under German pressure anyway, and the whole of Yugoslavia later.
9 Would you agree that when Germany
10 JUDGE KWON: Just before you answer, Mr. Bell: I'm wondering
11 what the relevance of these lines of questions are. I allowed you some
12 leeway to understand the context of the conflict, but I don't see the
13 point of delving into detail. So could you be brief, Mr. Karadzic, on
15 Having said that, Mr. Bell, could you answer the question?
16 THE WITNESS: I don't think I'm qualified to speculate on what
17 happened in 1918.
18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
19 THE WITNESS: I prefer to talk about things nearer today.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency. That
21 was my last question on history. But we really wonder to what extent we
22 are able to decide our own fate, because we are, after all, part of
23 broader politics.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Do you agree that the short-lived war in Croatia was also able to
1 generate genuine fears among ordinary people in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
2 A. Well, I remember that it wasn't so short-lived. It began in June
3 and ended in about February of the next year, and it claimed thousands of
4 lives. But, of course, it destabilised the whole region.
5 Q. Thank you. But as far as fear is concerned, do you believe that
6 fed the anxiety and fears of ordinary people and inspired them to take
7 measures of self-defence, made them wary of their neighbours, et cetera?
8 A. Yes, I think it was clear at that time that Yugoslavia was
9 falling apart, and all its peoples had grounds for great anxiety.
10 Q. Thank you. In addition to this historical peculiarity and the
11 obsession with history, you noted that in Bosnia-Herzegovina, communities
12 waged war, one against another, there was war among militias and ordinary
13 people, and you could see that even best men killed one another?
14 A. Yes, Dr. Karadzic, that is -- that is -- that is certainly true.
15 But there was not, as you -- as we both understand, a total separation of
16 the people throughout the war. I mean, there were tens of thousands of
17 Serbs inside Sarajevo
18 We're not talking about entirely separated communities.
19 Q. Thank you. It seems you know about it as doctrine of armed
20 people; that is to say, the Territorial Defence, which was organised for
21 the contingency of some attack on Yugoslavia from the east, and you were
22 aware that there were large amounts of weapons distributed across
23 municipalities, and even companies and businesses, all within the concept
24 of All People's Defence. Was it, indeed, your theory that Bosnia
25 quite well supplied with weapons and did not need any imported?
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
2 MS. EDGERTON: There is two pretty distinct questions in there,
3 Your Honour.
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes, I agree.
5 Shall I ask the accused to break it up, or would you be able to
6 answer the question, having the benefit of the transcript?
7 THE WITNESS: Yes, I'll answer it -- answer them briefly.
8 I'm aware of the Territorial Defence. I'm aware of the existence
9 of arsenals within Bosnia
10 Central Bosnia
11 they made dynamite. In Bugojno, they made land-mines. I don't think
12 this is in dispute, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
14 Mr. Karadzic, refrain from asking compound questions.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I'm trying to save
16 time, but to my own detriment, it seems.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Would I be right in saying that you were quite able to
19 distinguish between periods of presence of the Yugoslav People's Army in
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and its role, and periods after the JNA left?
21 A. Yes. It was a confusing time, but it was a very swift
23 Q. Thank you. Would you agree that up to the 20th May, the date of
24 the pull-out of the Yugoslav People's Army, the Territorial Defence was
25 in place, as well as self-organised groups, without any centralised
1 control or command?
2 A. Yes, I would -- I would -- I would agree to that, the
3 self-organised groups with all three of Bosnia's peoples, but most of
4 the -- most of the weaponry was accessible to the Serbs.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 Could we now view a video that could perhaps help illustrate this
7 subject. It's 1D2885. I hope transcripts exist. No, they don't?
8 [Video-clip played]
9 "There are paramilitary people in the city who are under nobody's
10 control, and they come from all ethnic backgrounds. And they have to
11 come under somebody's control, because they, together with others, are
12 destroying the city."
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Is it consistent with your knowledge and your position? Did you
15 make this film?
16 A. I rather remember making this. I think it was in Ilidza, and I
17 accept entirely what Colm Doyle was saying there at that time.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 May this be received, this clip?
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes, it will be admitted.
22 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D916, Your Honours.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Do you agree that all the way up to the 20th of May or later,
1 there were not enough opportunities to gain insight, let alone control,
2 over the developments on the ground; I mean, primarily the events in
3 Zvornik? Is it true that we were hardly able to find out what was going
4 on, let alone control it?
5 A. Dr. Karadzic, those were the very -- the very early days. There
6 was no Bosnian Serb army in existence at that time. The
7 Bosnian Government didn't have its own organised army, neither did the
8 Croats. This was part of the anarchy of the early days of the war.
9 Q. Thank you. You were based in Holiday Inn, and, to the best of
10 your knowledge, there were many crews based there, over 50 crews of the
11 largest news agencies?
12 A. I would be surprised if there were as many as 50, Dr. Karadzic.
13 Some came in and out briefly, but those who stayed for the duration were
14 the Sarajevo
15 And I wasn't actually based in Holiday Inn until towards the end of June
16 1992, because, as you know, it was partly destroyed in some earlier
18 Q. At that time, we met, you and I, in the Serbian part of Ilidza.
19 Do you remember that we both had offices in the same hotel and held press
20 conferences there?
21 A. Yes, indeed, I remember it vividly.
22 Q. Thank you. Do you recall one attack by Muslim Green Berets, who
23 fired even at your hotel where you were staying, although they were not
24 targeting you deliberately, but they were firing at the Serbian part of
25 Ilidza? I believe that was in April 1992.
1 A. Yes, I remember that attack vividly. In fact, I had a bullet
2 pass very close to my head and bury itself in the wall behind me, which I
3 dug out and put in my pocket as a -- as a sort of a good luck mascot.
4 And a friend of mine, an agency cameraman, was quite badly wounded in
5 that attack.
6 Q. Thank you. I noticed that you acknowledged and appreciated the
7 way we treated you and that you were able to access Serb territory, but
8 also the main players, as you put it?
9 A. It was a very unusual experience for me, and I did appreciate
10 that, that access and your hospitality, sir. And I very much regret that
11 for the last 15 months of the war, we had no access to you or your
12 headquarters or your staff.
13 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that during the first two years, you
14 could travel around Republika Srpska without any escort from us, just by
15 virtue of the fact that you were accredited?
16 A. Yes, that is true. If I had tried to get to active front-lines,
17 I -- there were -- there was one time you gave me an escort just to be
18 helpful. But, no, when I visited Republika Srpska at that time, the
19 greatest difficulty -- hazard I faced was actually driving across the
20 airport runway, which was like a -- like a free-fire zone. Once I got to
21 Lukavica, I was safe.
22 Q. Thank you. Do you agree that the establishment of government and
23 control and the state organism of Republika Srpska was, in a way, a
24 green-field project, as it were? Without institutions and without
25 infrastructures, we started establishing law and order and the rule of
2 A. Dr. Karadzic, clearly there was -- there was a rule of law within
3 your heartland, I mean, Banja Luka, Pale, the Romanija Plain. I don't
4 expect to find the rule of law in a war zone on active confrontation
6 Q. Thank you. It is from that point of view that I was wondering
7 whether you had noticed that the worst days and the most terrible crimes
8 occurred over those two months before June, and that later on, as some
9 kind of control was being established, the number of crimes went down.
10 Does that tally with your own observations?
11 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour.
12 JUDGE KWON: We need some reference.
13 MS. EDGERTON: It's just really rather vague and broad right now.
14 THE WITNESS: I can manage an answer, if it's helpful.
15 JUDGE KWON: If you could.
16 THE WITNESS: I mean, it is a matter of record that some of the
17 very worst crimes of deliberate murder were committed in the early weeks
18 of the war; not the only ones, but some of them.
19 JUDGE KWON: And if you could comment on the last part of his
21 THE WITNESS: Does that tally with my observations?
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
23 THE WITNESS: In a limited area in Sarajevo. But we didn't find
24 out about some of the worst crimes actually for many weeks or months,
25 because they were hidden and they happened far away from any journalists,
1 any UN, any anything. It was a time of anarchy.
2 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
3 Mr. Karadzic.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 Could I now --
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Actually, your observation was that the JNA in Sarajevo
8 constructive role and that they were not to be blamed for what was
9 happening in Sarajevo
10 A. When the war began, I remember there being a plan for joint
11 patrols between them and others. I knew General Kukanjac. I am not sure
12 the extent to which his heavy weapons may have been involved at some
13 stage. I was in the main street where -- in the early days where there
14 was certainly some incoming either artillery or attack fire, so I don't
15 know where that came from.
16 Q. Thank you. When you were speaking about the possibility of
17 having a war avoided altogether, did you have in mind the offer of the
18 European Community concerning the reconstruction of Bosnia
19 ethnic republics, well known as the Lisbon Agreement or the
20 Cutileiro Plan, the Carrington/Cutileiro project, as it were?
21 A. I had in mind, first of all, what might have happened if Croatia
22 had not been unilaterally recognised so early, but, yes, I remember the
23 Lisbon Conference as a time of hope, and I wish it had succeeded because
24 so many lives would have been saved.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 Could I please call up 1D2881. Could I have in e-court, please.
2 It's a video-clip which will help us illustrate -- or, rather, establish
3 what it is that we are discussing.
4 [Video-clip played]
5 "Martin Bell: The Serbs here are on the defensive, but holding
6 the line, the front-line, situate this morning to the west of the city,
7 an area of hotels set in parkland which had been the secure headquarters
8 both of the European Community Observers and of the foreign press. Our
9 morning call came from the barrel of a gun. Many guns on both sides.
10 This is a mainly Serbian enclave, and it seems that the Muslims,
11 emboldened by their relative success in the city center late yesterday,
12 were attempting to storm Ilidza today. They were met with stiff
13 resistance by the Serbs. It was a battle of fire and movement in which
14 the Serbs were trying to improve their positions tree by tree across the
15 front-line. It was also dangerous, obviously, for the photographers.
16 The veteran VIZ News cameraman, Rob Seliers [phoen], who shot these
17 pictures, was the furthest forward and paid the penalty for it. He was
18 taken to an army hospital, then flown to Belgrade, where he is now safe.
19 It was, up until this point, the federal army's only involvement in the
21 "An 11.00 a.m.
22 fighting after it was, if anything, fiercer than it was before. There is
23 no mediation, there are no peace talks, only Serbs and Muslims battling
24 it out; yet the would-be peace-makers were here on the spot, a dangerous
25 one. They included the personal envoy of Lord Carrington, who is due to
1 visit tomorrow. "
2 "Lord Carrington: We have to consider whether or not it is safer
3 at this stage for this important visit to take place."
4 "Martin Bell: Or if the will for peace is here."
5 "Lord Carrington: We don't know whether it is at the moment. We
6 made a lot of appeals. The situation is very serious. We are not too
7 sure what we're going to do at this stage."
8 "Martin Bell: The battle lasted for a full 10 hours. Only then
9 did it begin to subside. The Serbs had held their positions, but at a
10 cost which both sides are still counting. One of the Serbian soldiers
11 told me how three of his comrades fell fighting alongside him.
12 "My cousin -- two of my cousins, and one of my best friends. I
13 have [indiscernible] to God, but it was very bad."
14 THE ACCUSED: Thank you.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Do you recognise this to be the Command of the
17 2nd Military District in the center of Sarajevo that was attacked even
18 before May by paramilitary groups, the Green Berets and so on? Is that
19 that area?
20 A. I recognise it as the hotel where I was based. And, of course, I
21 remember this whole scene very vividly.
22 Q. Do you agree that this is proof of how fierce the fighting was,
23 in actual fact, when the JNA had already decided to withdraw, and there
24 was fighting going on involving them as well?
25 A. If I reported there was no JNA involvement in this, except the
1 evacuation of the cameraman, that is true. The ferocity of the fighting
2 is not in doubt, and I think this video-clip gives a very particular
3 demonstration of it.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 Can we please play 1D2883.
6 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour.
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
8 MS. EDGERTON: That transcript for that video that we just saw is
9 largely incomplete and contains a great deal of inaccuracies. And
10 because it's an English transcript, one can easily see that by following
11 along with the video.
12 JUDGE KWON: The problem is that the -- we have English sound,
13 but which cannot be, in full, translated into B/C/S. But the accused is
14 bearing with it.
15 What would be your suggestion, Ms. Edgerton?
16 MS. EDGERTON: I was actually also thinking about the translation
17 of that transcript into French, because it's important that Your Honours
18 have an accurate record of the transcript. I would ask that if they
19 propose to use this, that they revise the transcript.
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Is there a way, on the part of the Defence, to
21 provide the transcription of this video-clip, Mr. Karadzic?
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, after -- after this is
23 admitted, we will certainly have it transcribed in English, but at this
24 moment we were not in a position to do so. We were hoping that it could
25 be heard and interpreted, since the sound was quite good. At any rate,
1 we are going to have it transcribed, and we will submit the transcript.
2 Can the clip be admitted?
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we will admit it. But in the meantime, we will
5 mark it for identification until the time we'll get the English
7 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit D917, marked for
8 identification, Your Honours.
9 MS. EDGERTON: May I just make one further --
10 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
11 MS. EDGERTON: I should have risen earlier, but a date, even
12 approximately, to the events depicted would be useful, I think, for all
13 of us.
14 THE WITNESS: I can give you the date, sir, if it's of any help.
15 JUDGE KWON: By all means.
16 THE WITNESS: I was there. It was the 22nd of April, 1992
17 JUDGE KWON: Fantastic. Thank you, Mr. Bell.
18 I note the time, Mr. Karadzic. It's time to have a break.
19 We'll break for half an hour and resume at 1.00.
20 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.
21 --- On resuming at 12.59 p.m.
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 Can I please have 1D2883.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Mr. Bell, I would like us to see what those first days looked
2 like while there was still hope that peace would be established.
3 Fortunately, you were there, and you saw for yourself everything that was
5 [Video-clip played]
6 "Martin Bell: There has been a gun battle going around this
7 hotel in the parkland all morning, but [indiscernible] it hasn't stopped,
8 its fight intense. We've now been told that rather the
9 European Community Monitoring here have been warned that this place is
10 targeted for incoming mortar fire sometime around now. So it's not a
11 very comfortable situation, but I can assure you, from personal
12 experience, that there is no cease-fire here. That is a hard line
13 [indiscernible] to say. I'm sorry, it's a little bit disturbing, some of
14 this noise. The Muslims are in a very difficult position,
15 geographically, and the Serbs have to [indiscernible], and the
16 Serbian Army have them surrounded. On the other hand, the Muslims fought
17 back strongly yesterday, and as far as I can tell what's going on around
18 here, it's a fairly -- it's a fairly even match."
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Is this the hotel at Ilidza, and are you on Serb territory here?
22 A. Yes, it is that hotel, and I am on Serb territory.
23 Q. Your assessment was that this was a fairly even match; right?
24 That's what you say towards the end of this report?
25 A. Yes, that is how it seemed to me.
1 Q. So there is no doubt that as for this Serb part of Ilidza, the
2 Muslim group of the Green Berets was attacking from the other part of
3 Ilidza; right?
4 A. I didn't know at the time they were Green Berets, but certainly
5 the Serbs were under attack from the other side.
6 Q. Thank you. This is also around the 22nd of April, isn't it?
7 A. Yes, I think it is possibly the -- possibly the morning after.
8 It was the day that bullet nearly hit me and it hit the wall behind my
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 Can this be admitted?
12 JUDGE KWON: Does it bear the same 65 ter number as the previous
13 one, Mr. Karadzic?
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's not the way it should be. I
15 don't think that that is the case. I think this should be the next day.
16 JUDGE KWON: Yes, I was mistaken on that part. But I'm wondering
17 whether we should mark it for identification as well, Ms. Edgerton, for
18 the sake of transcript. Do we need -- we need the transcript?
19 MS. EDGERTON: Again, I'm just thinking of the translation of
20 this into French, if Your Honours are going to be giving it
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, it can be MFI'd until we
23 provide a transcript.
24 JUDGE KWON: Very well. We'll admit it when the translation is
25 done, so we'll mark it for identification, pending translation.
1 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D918, marked for identification,
2 Your Honours.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 JUDGE KWON: I meant "translation" to mean transcription of this
5 video, not necessarily the translation.
6 Yes, please.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Do you agree that Muslim armed groups felt rather self-confident
10 at the time and that they even attacked the JNA itself?
11 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, the first part of that question calls
12 for speculation.
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Could you reformulate your question,
14 Mr. Karadzic?
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll try.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Do you agree that from the very outset, there were numerous
18 groups, Muslim groups, that were armed and that were in town?
19 A. There were certainly armed Muslim groups, and there were armed
20 Serb groups which appeared to me in many cases to be completely ad hoc,
21 so they had improvised.
22 Q. Thank you. Do you agree that at first the JNA was expected to be
23 between the two parties and prevent the conflict?
24 A. That was my understanding at the very beginning, yes.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now play this, the
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Can you recognise the man that you see on your screen?
4 A. Yes, I can.
5 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber who it is?
6 A. It looks to me like General Kukanjac.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's right.
8 Can we play the video now.
9 [Video-clip played]
10 "Martin Bell: 'This army is staying in Bosnia-Herzegovina,' he
11 said, 'We are withdrawing from certain areas, especially those most under
12 attack, but we will continue to be the army of the people who shelter and
13 accept us.' Outside the rumour, he was talking about the evidence of the
14 most recent attack. His headquarters in the old part of town was shot at
15 again last night. This is an angry general. 'Mortars, rockets, snipers,
16 bazookas, heavy machine-guns.' He listed the weapons used against the
17 headquarters and produced the evidence, what he called his souvenirs,
18 along with a warning against whoever might try it again. 'If we are
19 attacked, we shall retaliate fiercely.' He read from what he said was a
20 declaration of war by the Croats and the Muslims, led by
21 President Alija Izetbegovic. The army until now has been more neutral in
22 this war than it was in Croatia
23 moving today to the Serbian side of the lines and taking its big guns
24 with it.
25 "Martin Bell
1 "Martin Bell: So at the very gates of army headquarters this
2 evening is the United Nations armoured car carrying
3 President Izetbegovic. This is where the deal holds together or falls
4 apart. The soldiers were already rushing to get out of the headquarters,
5 and President Izetbegovic was present, if not as a hostage, at least as a
6 most reluctant guest."
7 "[Indiscernible] negotiation, negotiation in UNPROFOR."
8 "Martin Bell: He exchanged meetings with an army that he
9 believes is an occupying force and spent some time with its general,
10 while the troops continued to load up and get out. Under the deal, the
11 two men would then have gone their separate ways but Bosnian Television
12 tonight showed the argument that started when the convoy was stopped at a
13 Bosnian roadblock. 'We have an agreement,' said the president from
14 inside the armoured car, and both men got through, but nine of the army's
15 vehicles were highjacked, there is no peace. And much of the city is
17 "Martin Bell
18 "Martin Bell: In the wards where some of the ten soldiers
19 wounded when the army convoy carrying their commander to safety was
20 stopped late yesterday by Bosnian forces, nine vehicles hijacked, more
21 than 150 soldiers captured. By the army's account, four of its men were
22 killed, including two colonels shot in cold blood in this ambulance.
23 General Kukanjac was still within sound of gunfire at his new
24 headquarters and angry. 'Nothing like it will happen again,' he said,
25 'because if we don't settle this, we will act differently.' From
4 a convoy with 100 soldiers captured and we now know 14 killed."
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, I'm sorry, but I just want to rise on
7 one point.
8 I've been sitting here with Mr. Reid and can see quite clearly
9 that at least one part of this video has been included in the associated
10 exhibits from Mr. Bell's amalgamated statement. And I wonder if it's at
11 all possible, as we go on, if we can be informed of the time codes or ERN
12 numbers from which these video-clips are taken, as we did in our initial
13 notification, to avoid the Chamber being unduly burdened with
14 duplicate -- duplicative evidence.
15 JUDGE KWON: While we are on that issue, can I revisit -- not
16 "revisit." It's about the transcription.
17 The video we've seen as part of an associated exhibit, are
18 there -- the transcript of those exhibited or what's the status of those
19 exhibits? I can't find them in the e-court. All I can find is just a
20 surrogate sheet, a one-page surrogate sheet. So we should have marked
21 them for identification as well, then, if we follow the rule. But it is
23 MS. EDGERTON: And I was just advised they're attached as
24 translations to the original surrogate sheet. But, indeed, Your Honour,
25 I'll double-check that for you, because given the experience of this
1 morning, I'm sorry to say that may not be the case with all of them. But
2 we'll certainly look into that.
3 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
4 It was, yes, as translation. Thank you, we got it. I think I
5 can find it. Yes, it's there. Thank you.
6 Now you have the answer to the question posed by Ms. Edgerton,
7 Mr. Karadzic.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. I believe that in our list,
9 in our notification, there is a reference to the origin of each and every
10 one of these clips.
11 JUDGE KWON: Can you confirm that, Ms. Edgerton?
12 MS. EDGERTON: No, there's no time code references, Your Honour.
13 That's the thing.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. Bell was kind enough to
15 inform us about Ilidza, the 22nd and the 23rd of April. As for this, we
16 are going to provide the time reference to the OTP. Oh, you meant the
17 minute code references. That's what you meant?
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. I thought you wanted to
20 know what the time of the actual occurrences was. We are going to
21 provide you with this. We are just going to specify what it was,
23 JUDGE KWON: So I propose to carry on, and that overlapping
24 problem could be sorted out in due course outside the courtroom between
25 the parties, with the assistance of the Registry.
1 Let's move on.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I shall now like to call up in
3 e-court 1D2806.
4 JUDGE KWON: In the meantime, do you like to tender that piece
5 where we could see General Kukanjac?
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, certainly.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. I wanted to ask Mr. Bell: You saw that the JNA staff was under
9 attack for a while, and the JNA was preparing to withdraw from Sarajevo
11 A. Yes, that's correct.
12 Q. Do you agree with what Kukanjac said, that from Slovenia through
14 as the enemy army and suffered many blows?
15 A. They certainly suffered a blow when the agreement to exchange
16 General Kukanjac and his soldiers for the semi-captive Alija Izetbegovic
17 broke down, and I don't think there is any doubt that some of those
18 soldiers, especially the ones in the ambulance, were killed in cold
20 Q. Thank you. But do you also remember that there had been attacks
21 on the headquarters even before, and the day before, the JNA hall was
22 attacked, killing several soldiers?
23 A. Yes. That is why General Kukanjac showed us what he called his
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see 1D2806, please. This is
1 already in evidence. It's a conversation between General Kukanjac and
2 General Mandzic on the 21st April 1992.
3 JUDGE KWON: Before that, we'll -- I take it the 65 ter number of
4 the previous clip was 1D2884. I need the confirmation.
5 I see the nodding. That will be admitted, while marked for
7 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D919, marked for identification,
8 Your Honours.
9 JUDGE KWON: But how can it be shown here? I was advised that we
10 do not have this one in e-court.
11 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I hope we do have a translation.
13 This is an intercept of a conversation between General Mandzic and
14 General Kukanjac. No, there is no translation. But it's from the 21st
15 of April, and they are discussing what is going on in the city. They are
16 discussing attacks from both sides of the Miljacka River.
17 Can we see the next page.
18 I will read what Kukanjac says:
19 "I called both Koljevic and Karadzic, and also all these Muslim
20 leaders, Come on, Muslims are shooting from Hum, they're shooting from
21 Crni Vrh, from Marin Dvor, from Zlatiste. The other ones are shooting
22 from Vraca. These raided an area in town. It's horrible."
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Do you remember that Serbs were in Vraca, and in these other
25 neighbourhoods there were Muslims? Do you recall these localities that I
1 mentioned: Hum, which is a hill, the one on which the TV relay is
2 Crni Vrh, Marin Dvor, Zlatiste - they were held by Muslims then - whereas
3 Vraca was held by the Serbs? Do you recall that?
4 A. Is this a question to me? I was -- I note there was very heavy
5 fighting in Sarajevo
6 was caught up in the middle of it, in the middle of the city, sir.
7 Q. Thank you. But you were aware of this fierce exchange of fire
8 and this chaotic fighting that these two people are discussing?
9 A. Very much so, yes, I was aware of that. I was in the middle of
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We are about to see -- in fact, I'm
12 going to read out -- the next page, please. I will read out the whole
13 sentence. Kukanjac says -- the next after this.
14 The last sentence in this passage:
15 "That directive of Alija Izetbegovic is being implemented."
16 We need to see the top of the page. It's the last sentence in
17 the first box:
18 "That directive of Alija Izetbegovic is being implemented."
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. You had perhaps heard of some directives, but you were not sure
21 they existed. Do you remember that on the 12th of April, a directive to
22 attack the JNA was issued, and it was renewed in the end of April?
23 A. No. On the 12th of April, I was describing the battle for
24 Kupres. I was not aware of any directive at the time. And, of course,
25 it would have been useful to know, but I was not aware of these
1 directives or, indeed, of this conversation.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 Can this be admitted as an MFI
4 JUDGE KWON: It was not admitted, as indicated, earlier on.
5 Ms. Edgerton, what was it you wanted to --
6 MS. EDGERTON: I just don't think there's enough on this
7 intercept for it to be admitted through this witness, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE KWON: The witness was not able to confirm anything about
9 this conversation, and as to the general condition, he testified on his
10 own. So I don't think we need to admit this. We'll not admit this
11 through this witness.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, although the
13 conversation between these two generals confirms what Mr. Bell had noted
14 as fierce and balanced fighting.
15 Can we now see 1D01258, please. This is a directive, and for
16 this one, we have a translation, issued two days after the conversation
17 between the generals, and that's the second directive in April to attack
18 the JNA. Please look at the English translation.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. They define enemy forces, and the JNA is proclaimed to be one of
21 the enemy forces, along with Serb territorial units in Serbian areas, in
22 Serbian autonomous provinces.
23 Can we see the next page in English, number 4, where it says: "I
24 hereby decide ..."
25 Paragraph 4: "I have decided ..."
1 And then it goes on to order a general mobilisation of the entire
2 Territorial Defence and joint command over this entire operation against
3 the enemy, as they say:
4 "Immediately capture weapons and ammunition depots, cut off
5 barracks, capture them, and detain members of the JNA on the territory of
7 And now could you look at number 5, the tasks.
8 From your experience and knowledge, were the events that started
9 on the 23rd of April consistent with what you see in this directive?
10 A. Well, of course, I was not aware of this directive at the time.
11 It was issued on a day where Lord Carrington had succeeded in brokering a
12 cease-fire. But I would have been surprised, in view of the ferocity of
13 the fighting in the two previous days, if there had not been an attempt
14 to seize weapons and co-ordinate a fighting force.
15 Q. It's true that you could not have been aware of it, because it's
16 a written military secret. It was not in the public domain, but it was
17 sent to Muslim military forces.
18 Could you please look at Point 6, "Support for Combat
20 The next page, please, and in Serbian.
21 "Command and Communications." In English, we need the next page
22 after this.
23 All this that you see here, does this look to you as a
24 comprehensive order for an all-out attack, well co-ordinated and well
1 A. Of course, I had no sight of any internal documents of any of the
2 fighting forces. It looks to me like an attempt to establish a properly
3 co-ordinated fighting force.
4 Q. Thank you. If you see number 7:
5 "Immediately set up a command system in the following levels:
6 Unit, municipal staff, district staff, Republican Staff ..."
7 In Serbian, we need the next page.
8 This was sent to municipal and regional staffs and signed by
9 Commander Hasan Efendic.
10 Now, would you cast your mind back to the events of the 2nd and
11 3rd of May. This was 10 days after this directive. Do you see a logical
12 connection between this directive and what happened in the first days of
14 A. There was certainly very heavy fighting in Sarajevo on the 2nd of
15 May. I believe that was the day that the trams stopped, and it lasted
16 all day. I had no way of knowing, from my position on the ground, how it
17 began, but I believe that an attack on the Dom Armije, the officers'
18 club, was part of what happened. And I know this because we were
19 threatened when we tried to get our cameras near it.
20 Q. Thank you. You surely knew that there was an agreement between
21 the JNA and Izetbegovic that the JNA would pull out from Bosnia, and that
22 had been agreed in Skopje
23 that agreement between Blagoje Adzic and Izetbegovic in Skopje
24 JNA pullout from Bosnia
25 A. Yes, and I was aware of the proposal for the exchange of Kukanjac
1 for Izetbegovic.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 Can this document be admitted?
4 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Edgerton.
5 THE REGISTRAR: It's D222, Your Honours. It's already been
7 JUDGE KWON: It was. But at a later stage, in a decision dated
8 30th of September, we denied the admission. It was shown to
9 Colonel Colm Doyle, who was not able to comment on this at the time. But
10 given the answer by this witness, I'm asking your opinion.
11 MS. EDGERTON: Well, I think it's a slightly -- I was just
12 reading the comments that Colonel Doyle had given in respect of that
13 document, and I think the situation here is different, in fact, and I
14 have no objection.
15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
16 This will be now admitted.
17 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D920, Your Honours.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we look at another
19 video-clip, 1D2882.
20 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Instead of giving a new number, we
21 are going to reinstate the old number. So this will be admitted finally
22 as D222. D222, yes.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D2882.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. You said yourself that you witnessed frequent iterations of peace
1 offers for the benefit of your TV station; correct?
2 A. Yes. And, Dr. Karadzic, the cease-fires came and went with great
3 regularity, and few of them lasted very long.
4 [Video-clip played]
5 "Martin Bell: ... Sarajevo
6 Air Force and on a mission as difficult as any in diplomacy, to bring to
7 a complete halt the fighting that had raged in the city for the previous
8 two days and to re-establish a peace process between leaders who at this
9 point were not even talking to each other, so little security and so
10 little understanding that he had to hold separate sessions with them in a
11 restaurant at the airport which is under federal army control and,
12 therefore, the only safe place in Sarajevo for negotiations. The first
13 point, a real cease-fire was perhaps the easiest to agree to, the hardest
14 to enforce. The leader of the Bosnian Serbs was among those committed to
16 "Karadzic: We have to sit down at the same table, even in help
17 to even get some peace for this country."
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 Q. Do you recall this report? You were present when the delegation
20 arrived, the Portuguese foreign minister and Lord Carrington; correct?
21 A. Yes, that is correct, and you were accompanied by Mr. Koljevic.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May this video-clip be received?
23 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, I can advise that's -- that clip is
24 completely subsumed within 65 ter 40526B, which was an associated exhibit
25 to paragraph 61 of Mr. Bell's amalgamated statement.
1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Then we don't have to admit it
2 separately. Thank you, Ms. Edgerton.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 Now I should like to display 65 ter 30655. It's an intercept
5 between me and Professor Koljevic of the 4th of April, 1992, two days
6 before the war broke out.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Do you recall, Mr. Doyle -- sorry, Mr. Bell. At the time you
9 were in Kupres, do you remember that on the 4th of April, the evening of
10 the 4th of April, Mr. Izetbegovic declared general mobilisation in
12 A. I was -- I was carried by a JNA helicopter to Kupres on the
13 14th -- on the 12th of April. On the 4th, I was not yet in the country,
14 Dr. Karadzic.
15 Q. Oh, I see. Let me show you this intercept now, where I am
16 talking with Mr. -- with Professor Koljevic, who was a member of the
17 Presidency, alongside Izetbegovic.
18 We see it on the screen, and there is a translation. The next
19 page, please. The next page in both versions.
20 The first three boxes from the top, I ask what happened at the
21 Presidency, and Professor Koljevic explains that the Muslim side demanded
22 a mobilisation of the Territorial Defence:
23 [In English] "... so I said that there has to be a difference, if
24 we are in the favour of peace or the continuation of the political fight.
25 I told them that this move is politically negative, and, you know, we
1 were in the conflict again, they are continuing their political fight."
2 [Interpretation] If I may remind you, at that time the
3 Lisbon Agreement had already been accepted, and two days before its
4 expected ratification, Mr. Izetbegovic declared all-out mobilisation. Do
5 you agree that this must have been intimidating for the Serbs?
6 A. I can see why you would wish to introduce this as evidence at
7 this trial. I would prefer to comment -- reserve my comments to things
8 that happened and statements that were made and battles that were fought
9 while I was actually in your country.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. The Trial Chamber would
11 probably be disinclined to receive this at this time.
12 Can we call up 37 -- sorry, 30714. This is my conversation with
13 Radovan Pejic from the police, who was at Vraca at the time when you were
14 there, the 23rd of April, at the time of that heavy fighting.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Could you help us with this video?
17 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, do you need that B/C/S version on the
18 monitor? If you have a hard copy, we can collapse that and zoom in
19 further, for Mr. Bell's convenience, on the English version. Let's do
20 that. Thank you.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I agree, I agree. I don't need the
22 Serbian version on the screen.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Those are those critical days, and I'm calling and asking whether
25 that is Vraca. If you remember, Vraca is a Serb neighbourhood above
1 Grbavica, opposite the Holiday Inn. Do you remember Vraca?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Thank you. That's where the headquarters of the Serb police was.
4 Now I would like you to focus on this conversation. The fifth
5 part from below, Mr. Pejic is saying there are some indications that they
6 keep getting organised down there in Grbavica. As you remember, at
7 Grbavica there were both Serb and Muslim armed groups at the time; right?
8 A. Right.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 And now I think we can actually look at the next page; the next
11 page in English, that is.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Pejic is informing me about the fact that there were attacks and
14 that the Serb police was just trying to be prepared if there is another
15 attack. And I say:
16 "All right. Today, a cease-fire should be signed, so we should
17 not start in any way and they should not, as such."
18 Does that correspond to your knowledge regarding my attempts to
19 preserve the cease-fire?
20 A. It certainly corresponds to my recollection of the situation on
21 the ground at the time, that after two days of heavy fighting, one in the
22 city and the other in Ilidza, itself, it was much quieter on the day that
23 Lord Carrington arrived to try to broker a cease-fire.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. There is another page
25 as well, and Mr. Pejic is informing me that the headquarters were bombed.
1 Can we have the next page? Ah, yes, I see it here. Windows,
3 The windows were shattered, there was damage from shells and so
5 Can this document be admitted?
6 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Edgerton?
7 MS. EDGERTON: Marked for identification, please.
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We do have a translation.
10 JUDGE KWON: But not for the -- it has been our practice, unless
11 one of the participants testified, we mark it for identification, pending
12 that issue will have been resolved.
13 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit D920, marked for
14 identification, Your Honours.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] While we're on the subject, peace
16 efforts, that is, I would like to remind you of your own statement from
17 1995. Or was it 1996? If you have it in front of you, or maybe I should
18 read it:
19 [In English] "... first visit to Pale. Outside the
20 Hotel Panorama in Pale, we filmed Karadzic saying, 'If we didn't have
21 hope for political solution, we would already have freed Sarajevo. We
22 would have taken it because we can.'"
23 [Interpretation] End of quote:
24 [In English] "Easter Sunday morning April the 25th, Karadzic took
25 us around his front-lines at Trebevic. He invited us to tour his troops.
1 We saw troops. They were in uniform, as I remember, with a red tag --
2 batch of badges. Most were in JNA uniforms. There was a cease-fire at
3 that time, and he wanted to show us how his people were observing it. We
4 got the impression Karadzic was fairly popular with his troops. He said
5 he could take Sarajevo
6 "What they could have done was flattened Sarajevo, as they did
7 Vukovar, but they didn't. They believed it was their city."
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Several times you confirmed that we considered Sarajevo to be our
10 own town and that there was not the kind of destruction that had happened
11 in Mostar, Vukovar, and elsewhere; right?
12 A. Yes, that is correct. I would [indiscernible] that. It was a
13 shared city in which you all lived together.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 I don't know whether this statement of Mr. Bell's from 1995 or
16 1996 has been admitted already. Or should we tender it?
17 JUDGE KWON: I don't think it has been admitted, because we
18 admitted only his amalgamated statements, but I remember having heard
19 that from a video.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We would be happy to have that
21 statement admitted, too, because Mr. Bell's memory was quite fresh at the
23 JUDGE KWON: What is the 65 ter number of it?
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now we're going to find it.
25 MS. EDGERTON: We don't have it up-loaded, so it doesn't have a
1 65 ter number for us.
2 JUDGE KWON: Then it should be added to the 65 ter list, first of
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I can understand the Office
5 of the Prosecutor, the fact that they don't like this statement, but it's
6 invaluable because it was given right after the events concerned.
7 JUDGE KWON: But as for the contents of this statement, the
8 witness confirmed, and then it's in the transcript. And we heard your
9 voice directly from the video. But if -- yes, Ms. Edgerton.
10 MS. EDGERTON: Just a couple of things.
11 I can give you a 65 ter number, although we haven't up-loaded it.
12 It is 09981, and now it's up-loaded. And that passage that was just
13 discussed is at paragraph 43 of Mr. Bell's consolidated statement.
14 JUDGE KWON: And you have no objection of admitting that
15 statement of Mr. Bell's?
16 MS. EDGERTON: Oh, no.
17 JUDGE KWON: Very well. It will be admitted as a Defence
19 THE REGISTRAR: With the Exhibit D921, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The only difference is that in this
22 statement of 1996, there is that reference to bravado, but that is not of
23 crucial importance.
24 While we're on the subject of cease-fires and attempts to
25 establish an early peace, 1D2886, could we have a look at that now,
1 please. 1D2886. Maybe -- ah, I see it now.
2 [Video-clip played]
3 "Martin Bell: The Serbs are continuing their public peace
4 offensive. Their leader, Dr. Radovan Karadzic, sent a letter to 'The
5 Times' this morning with a copy to the BBC, saying that he would
6 court-martial any of his troops who broke the cease-fire. 'We were
7 persuaded,' he said, 'to take a significant risk in the hope of peace.'
8 We will see today if his orders are being obeyed."
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 Q. Does this correspond to your knowledge at the time?
11 A. Yes. I was not -- I was not given to speculation, Dr. Karadzic.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 Can this be admitted?
14 JUDGE KWON: Pursuant to that principle, we'll mark it for
15 identification. Or is it subsumed in another --
16 MS. EDGERTON: Can we move on, and I can respond to you on that
17 in a couple of minutes. It just takes me a little bit of time to check
19 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
20 Let's leave it there, and then let's move on.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 Q. You noticed, yourself, that you were not -- that we were not very
23 skillful at media warfare, as it were, but we were always available for
24 contacts, weren't we?
25 A. With respect, Dr. Karadzic, I think you and your vice-president
1 were both quite good at media warfare. You made yourselves available,
2 you made your case clearly. It was only later in the conflict that we
3 lost sight of you.
4 Q. Thank you. However, what I meant was that we had not
5 sufficiently publicised other things we did. Do you know, for instance,
6 that we were establishing a military judiciary at an accelerated pace and
7 that we were trying persons who had committed crimes against Muslims and
9 A. I did not know that, and it would have been very helpful to have
10 known that at the time.
11 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, may I advise you on this last
12 video-clip that I just asked for a couple of moments on. That was
13 1D2886, and that's subsumed within 65 ter 40526C, which is an associated
14 exhibit to paragraph 75 of Mr. Bell's amalgamated statement.
15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you very much. Then we don't have to admit it
16 separately, Mr. Karadzic.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Do you remember that a great deal of publicity was given to
20 prisoners of war, and it was that summer, the prisoners of war that were
21 held by the Serbs?
22 A. As I remember, there was a great deal of publicity given to
23 prisoners on both sides, Dr. Karadzic.
24 Q. Thank you. Do you remember that the prison for prisoners of war
25 at Manjaca was established as far back as the time of the war in Croatia
1 and that it was established by the JNA?
2 A. Well, of course, in the time of the war in Croatia, I was in
4 Q. Do you agree that in the attacks against the JNA, say, in Samac
5 and Western Bosnia, all the way up until the 20th of May, that the JNA
6 had its own prisoners of war and that they were put in the prison in
8 A. I'm not sufficiently well informed about that, Dr. Karadzic, to
9 be able to help you.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 Can we now view a video, 1D2887. It has to do with prisoners of
12 war. 1D2887.
13 [Video-clip played]
14 "Karadzic: Yes, we would accept that. It would help us to quit
15 those prisons for war prisoners."
16 "Reporter: So you would make speedy access possible, say, by the
17 United Nations Commission on Human Rights?"
18 "Karadzic: Anything that comes from the UN, we are going to
19 receive and be co-operative on that field."
20 "Reporter: So if they put people on the ground there tomorrow,
21 those camps would be opened to them?"
22 "Karadzic: Absolutely. We are seeking for the possibility to
23 quit all those prisons by changing all war prisoners all for all, but the
24 Muslim side, unfortunately, don't accept it. But we would accept
25 international help in any kind."
1 "Reporter: Well, we're talking here of international and
2 independent supervision of the camps."
3 "Karadzic: Sure, absolutely."
4 "Reporter: That sounds like the United Nations running the
5 camps. Is that acceptable?"
6 "Karadzic: Yes, absolutely acceptable."
7 "Reporter: Britain
8 collecting evidence, so that those responsible for any abuses can be
9 caught, tried and punished. Will you co-operate in that?"
10 "Karadzic: Absolutely, we will do our own investigation for our
11 own, because we also want to see whether there were some abuse or not."
12 "Reporter: But if crimes were carried out, if the picture turns
13 out to be that of treatment incompatible with civilised behaviour in the
14 conventions of war, would you co-operate in what would amount to war
15 crimes trials?"
16 "Karadzic: Absolutely. If there are any evidence about that, we
17 are going to co-operate and to help if it comes out clearly."
18 "Reporter: Dr. Karadzic, you made it quite clear that you accept
19 the moves being made by the UN to run the camps, to punish abuses, but to
20 what extent are you able to deliver that?"
21 "Karadzic: I think we are able to deliver anything. If some
22 people are disobedient, we are going to arrest them, as we have already
23 done with some disobedient people."
24 "Reporter: What is the motive for agreeing to these UN moves?
25 Is it to head off the threat of international military intervention,
1 air-strikes against your people?"
2 "Karadzic: No, military intervention means not too much. It
3 would not resolve anything. It would just make this war worse, and it
4 would make this war lasting longer. We just co-operate with the UN
5 because we are right, and we want everything to be settled down proper
6 way. And we think that UN is very helpful for us, for Serbs in Croatia
7 and for Serbs in Bosnia-Herzegovina."
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Did we manage to inform you about my order of the 13th of June?
11 It was repeated on the 19th of August it had to do with observing
12 International Humanitarian Law and the Law of War. Did you know that
13 before this interview and before the intervention of the United Nations
14 and the Red Cross, we had already set that norm?
15 A. I would be grateful for the date of the interview we've just been
16 seeing. Do we know when that was?
17 Q. I believe that this was in September 1992. We don't have the
18 exact date. But, at any rate, it was after that that -- actually, do you
19 remember that by the 12th of December, all prisons for prisoners of war
20 were disbanded and that they were taken to third countries, to a very
21 large extent?
22 A. The difficulty I have with this, Dr. Karadzic, is -- for this is
23 this is mostly the period when I was out of the country because I had
24 been wounded.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I was hoping that the distinguished
1 Ms. Edgerton would help us with the date, because we got that in relation
2 to your statement, this intercept -- or, no, it's a video-clip. It was
3 received in relation to what it was that you were supposed to be speaking
4 about. That's the way it seems to me, anyway.
5 MS. EDGERTON: No.
6 JUDGE KWON: It's your interview, Mr. Karadzic.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, V000-3327-10 -- or, rather,
8 "-A." It's part of that. Would that help establish the coordinates,
9 V000-3327-1? We received it from the OTP. It's most certain that we did
10 not get it ourselves.
11 MS. EDGERTON: If I could help on that, I would, Your Honours,
12 but I can't. I have no idea of the date of the interview, and our
13 records don't give us any date either.
14 JUDGE KWON: So, Mr. Bell, you don't remember having heard that
15 interview by Mr. Karadzic at the time?
16 THE WITNESS: No, Your Honour, I do not, but that's probably
17 because I was in hospital.
18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have for a moment D101.
20 Could we please have that in e-court.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. However, on the 13th of June, you were certainly in Bosnia,
23 weren't you?
24 A. It was -- give me just a second. I do have -- I do have the
25 records here. It was about the time I returned. My successor had
1 been -- can I say he'd left in a hurry under mortar on the second week in
2 May, and I had great difficulty in getting back across the airport.
3 Probably about the 15th or 16th of June. I have a record here that I did
4 a report on new fighting in Sarajevo
5 in our business, to hit the ground running, as we say, so I would have --
6 I would have filed as quickly as I could, so I doubt if I was there on
7 the 13th of June.
8 Q. Thank you. However, I'd like to draw your attention to this:
9 This is a repeated order. Look at the first sentence, once again: "I
10 hereby order ..." And there are four paragraphs here related to
11 observance of humanitarian law, and there is a reference to the first
12 order that was issued in June 1992 that has to do with the treatment of
13 prisoners of war. So that was before anybody's intervention. That is
14 why I said that, that perhaps we were not active enough and skillful
15 enough as regards the media. Otherwise, these orders would have been
16 given great publicity and you would have known about them. Wouldn't you
18 A. Dr. Karadzic, absolutely, it would have been very helpful for me
19 at the time of my return, on about the 15th or 16th of June, to have been
20 aware of this order and the many other things you were doing. I think it
21 was an admirable order.
22 Q. Thank you. I'm aware of the fact that we, ourselves,
23 contributed, in part, to our failure in the media.
24 Can we just have the next page, please, in both versions. The
25 next page:
1 "The general position:
2 "The Army and the police in the area of responsibility are being
3 issued an order to carry out vigorous investigations."
4 Do you agree that after taking the Serbian municipalities in
5 Krajina, the Muslim police found documentation and investigation material
6 with regard to each and every incident when the Muslims and Croats were
7 victims before the end of the war in 1995, and that to this day
8 proceedings are underway in Bosnia-Herzegovina on the basis of our files
9 compiled at the time?
10 A. Again, I wasn't aware of this, and I wish I had been. And I do
11 not doubt, Dr. Karadzic, that it reflects credit upon you.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 D95, could we have that for a moment, please.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Do you remember that our position was that villages, Muslim
16 villages, Croat villages, should hand over their weapons, should not
17 fight, and that we guarantee full freedom to them, as well as safety and
19 There is a telegram here that I sent on the 14th of July to the
20 municipalities in Podrinje, that is to say, the eastern part of Bosnia
21 You, yourself, had realised that it was not under the control of the
22 central authorities. Could you please focus your attention on this
23 telegram now?
24 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours.
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
1 MS. EDGERTON: I would like a reference to support Dr. Karadzic's
2 latest assertion as to what Mr. Bell had said.
3 JUDGE KWON: I don't think he made reference to Mr. Bell's
4 statement earlier on.
5 MS. EDGERTON: He said, at page 94, line 19:
6 "You, yourself, had realised," referring to the Podrinje, "that
7 it was not under the control of the central authorities."
8 So I'd like a reference to that effect.
9 JUDGE KWON: Was it not a question asking whether he realised it
10 at the time of the situation instead of his making a statement to that
11 effect? English is not my native --
12 MS. EDGERTON: I'm not good at it most days either, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE MORRISON: Well, Mr. Bell, can you answer the question?
14 Had you realised that it was not under the control of the central
15 authorities, the eastern part of Bosnia
16 THE WITNESS: I think some parts were and some parts weren't.
17 One of the municipalities here is Han Pijesak, which was Serbian --
18 Bosnian Serb heartland throughout, but I've got -- you know, English is
19 my native tongue, and I've got lost down the judicial byways of the last
20 five minutes, and I'm not entirely sure of what I'm being asked about.
21 JUDGE MORRISON: Nothing quite so obscure as judicial byways.
22 JUDGE KWON: What is your question, Mr. Karadzic, on this
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. I'd like to ask you: Do you know that this really happened this
1 way at Romanija, and around Han Pijesak, and around Rogatica, there were
2 villages that surrendered their weapons and remained safe until the end
3 of the war?
4 A. I'm very pleased to hear that, Dr. Karadzic. I think the record
5 suggests that something other happened, for instance, in Foca. Or is it
6 in Foca that you met resistance, perhaps?
7 Q. Well, I'm actually talking about villages closer to the
8 Drina River
9 interview, it was said that we cannot find a single Serbian village in
10 Muslim territory which meant the year 1995 safe; whereas we can find a
11 lot of small towns, hamlets and villages that were Muslim populated in
12 Serb territory, such as Janja, Bosanski Dubocac, Bosanski Kobas, and then
13 other villages that surrendered their weapons that did remain safe in
14 Serb territory?
15 A. Well, I'm very gratified to hear that. We -- for various
16 logistical reasons and because of the heavy fighting in and around
18 I certainly do remember a Serb village in Central Bosnia, close to the
19 confrontation line between Muslims and Croats, from which the Serbs had
20 fled entirely, and that supports your general thesis here.
21 Q. Thank you. I'm trying to find your statement, or was it perhaps
22 something you said during our discussion, where you said that Karadzic or
23 the central authorities does not have enough control in Eastern Bosnia,
24 but let me read something you said during your interview:
25 [In English] "... a sense of history or mission. He was not a
1 man with hatred in his heart. He would be very surprised -- I would be
2 very surprised if Dr. Karadzic ordered crimes or shooting."
3 [Interpretation] Is that your position?
4 A. I think the phrase about hatred in his heart came from an
5 interview with Nermin Tulic in Sarajevo
6 Shakespearean actor, and he had been taught by Dr. Koljevic. And he lost
7 both his legs in a mortar attack, and what he later told me, that what
8 troubled him was not so much his incapacity for life but he's got
9 something worse than cancer, he said, he had hatred in his heart to those
10 who had done that.
11 As far as the situation in the Drina Valley
12 certainly in the early days all regular military forces who were later to
13 engage in the war were in the process of organising themselves, and any
14 central commands and control was extremely fragmentary, if it existed at
16 And if I could just add, Your Honours, my view of the war from
17 the start was it was a war among the people, being reported from among
18 the people. I was down there in the middle of them from start to finish.
19 And whether any of the leaders had hatred in their hearts is for them to
20 decide. I was concerned with effects from start to finish.
21 Q. Thank you. Do you recall that we refreshed our memory of the
22 visit by an ITN
24 A. Yes, we did. And, of course, I was not there, but they were, but
25 I'm very well aware of the incident and the affect that it had.
1 Q. Thank you. Do you remember that I offered that crew
2 transportation by a government plane and gave them free access to
3 Republika Srpska and any location in Republika Srpska they wanted to go?
4 A. Yes. My friends at ITN
5 Q. Do you remember there was some talk among them that they had
6 found nothing, they didn't have a story, and then they created a story
7 out of the material they had, a story that ended up doing us a very bad
9 A. It was certainly a story that went 'round the world. I know it
10 was -- it was very controversial. I actually -- when I was a member of
11 Parliament, I pleaded with the editor of ITN not to sue the magazine that
12 printed certain allegations.
13 As for the accuracy of the report, not being there, and I'm not
14 really able to comment on it, sir.
15 Q. Do you recall that somebody from the ITN, Penny Marshal or
16 someone else, told you that they did not have a story and that they made
17 one out of the material they had shot?
18 A. No, that is not -- I forget who told me this, but it was not
19 that. It was that it was only when they got back to their hotel, and
20 looked at their footage and their notes, that they realised what they
22 Q. Thank you. Do you believe, and we will try to show that here,
23 that that crew entered a compound surrounded by barbed wire, and that's
24 how they photographed refugees in Trnopolje camp, as if they, the
25 refugees, were surrounded by barbed wire, rather than the camera, thus
1 creating the illusion that we were holding them prisoners? Was that the
2 enterprise of this magazine called "Living Marxism," an attempt to refute
3 the ITN
4 A. The article by Thomas Deichmann in "Living Marxism" was certainly
5 an attempt to refute the ITN
6 make your case. If I had been there, I could have been helpful. And if
7 I'd done that report, you'd, no doubt, have me pinned against the witness
8 box. But I can't really speculate about something second-hand, about
9 something that occurred when I wasn't there.
10 Q. I'm, again, on the verge of self-criticism, in the sense that we
11 were not very good at public relations, but I hope you were aware that we
12 were opening up completely to the international media and that is
13 precisely how the liberation of most of POWs came about by the end of
15 Now I'd like to show 1D2888, a video-clip.
16 Do you agree that we gave access both to the Red Cross and
17 foreign media and foreign reporters, complete access anywhere except, of
18 course, the front-lines?
19 A. And until August 1994, obviously. But when incidents happened
20 like that ITN
21 foreign press is against us, which had unfortunate consequences, because
22 I was neither for you, nor against you. I just wanted access to find
23 things out, and I had -- and I'm not making any complaints about the
24 access I was granted up until October -- August 1994.
25 Q. In your book, on page 100:
1 [In English] "... light, the Serbs were in the grip of extreme
2 spy-mania, and at their roadblocks journalists were doubly suspect for
3 being foreigners - therefore, historically anti-Serbs - and for
4 travelling from the other side of lines."
5 [Interpretation] Do you agree that these searches and suspicions
6 were not insolence on their part; it was, as you say, fear and misgivings
7 that spies -- that spy work is going on, that spies are at large?
8 A. I have absolutely no hard feelings about this at all. In a war
9 zone, I expect to be stopped, I expect to be searched. I was a little
10 bit surprised on one occasion when my -- one of your roadblocks, we were
11 stopped, and everything went through, and my Italian producer had a --
12 had a cuddly toy, a teddy bear, which then had its -- was ripped in two
13 by a bayonet to make sure it wasn't hiding anything. I think the --
14 I think the searches, especially Rogatica, were probably a little bit
15 over the top. But in principle, I expect to be -- I expect to be
16 stopped, I expect to be searched. And, Dr. Karadzic, after all these
17 years, no hard feelings.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And as a psychiatrist, I wanted to
19 make a distinction between insolence and heavy-handedness and fear, and a
20 conviction that may arise out of that fear.
21 Can we now play this video. This is a visit by Lord Ashdown, who
22 was not a lord then, to Sarajevo
23 also visited Manjaca, but I did not see that.
24 [Video-clip played]
25 "Reporter: The Bosnian Serbs had challenged him to come and see
1 things from their perspective, and Mr. Ashdown took up the challenge,
2 which began with an extremely unpleasant hour-long helicopter journey.
3 To avoid fire from the ground, the aircraft flew fast and low, a taste of
4 war-time conditions for Mr. Ashdown and those accompanying him. The
5 destination was Pale, the former skiing resort near Sarajevo, where the
6 Bosnian Serbs have a military strong-hold. There, Mr. Ashdown met and
7 discussed his programme with the man who'd invited him, the Bosnian Serb
8 leader, Radovan Karadzic.
9 "Karadzic: And in Sarajevo
10 "Reporter: The visit got underway soon afterwards at
11 Kula Prison Camp, on the outskirts of Sarajevo. Mr. Ashdown was able to
12 talk freely to the inmates, Muslims who said their life was not tough
13 here, but they were not beaten.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 Q. Did you know about this prison, Kula, near Sarajevo, and that it
16 used to be a prison for a long time before the war?
17 A. I'd heard about it, but I did not visit it in person.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Do we have time for an extension
20 JUDGE KWON: It's time to conclude for today.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this video-clip be admitted?
22 MS. EDGERTON: Just to note on the transcript, it shows
23 Martin Bell as being the speaker on the video, and that's not the case.
24 THE WITNESS: I can tell you who the speaker was, if it's of any
25 help, Your Honour. It's another correspondent called Justin Webb.
1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. But having said that, you have no
3 We'll admit it.
4 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit D922, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Bell, we'll adjourn for today and resume
6 tomorrow morning at 9.00.
7 [The witness stands down]
8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.29 p.m.
9 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 15th day of
10 December, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.