1 Friday, 25 February 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.25 p.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Good afternoon, everyone.
7 Good afternoon, Mr. Mujkic.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour.
9 WITNESS: RAMIZ MUJKIC [Resumed]
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 JUDGE KWON: Well, Mr. Karadzic, are you ready to begin your
12 cross-examination? Yes, let's start.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 Good afternoon, Your Excellencies. Good afternoon to everyone.
15 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Mujkic.
18 A. Good afternoon.
19 Q. Mr. Mujkic, I will try to put, as simple as possible, my
20 questions. And whenever it suits you, you can answer with a yes or a no,
21 because we don't have too much time.
22 Is it correct that in March 1996, you gave a statement to the AID
23 in Sarajevo?
24 A. I provided a statement at the police in the Novi Grad
25 municipality. I don't know whether that was the AID or someone else. I
1 didn't ask. I wasn't really interested.
2 Q. So this was four years after the events; is that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And in the statement, did you describe in detail the events from
5 May and June, and then from August, that pertained to the
6 Rajlovac Barracks?
7 A. No, I didn't mention the Rajlovac Barracks because I didn't know
8 the purpose of their being there. So I really didn't want to give an
9 incomplete statement.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, let's refresh your memory a
11 little bit.
12 So let's look at 65 ter 22188 in the e-court, please.
13 Can we look at the first page, please, so Mr. Mujkic can identify
14 the document. And then we will go to the seventh page in the Serbian the
15 ninth page in the English. This is the e-court pages or pages 18 --
16 pages 19 and 22 in the document, itself.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Is this your statement from --
18 actually, this is a Rule 92 bis bundle which contains the statement.
19 Can we look at page 19 in the e-court from this bundle of
20 documents, and that will be page 22 in the English. Page 22 in the
21 English in the e-court. We also need to look at the page in the Serbian.
22 In the English, it's in the middle somewhere, where it says "Apostolski"
23 and "Karadzic." My name is there.
24 Can we have the Serbian version. Actually, would you please
25 leave the English version on the screen, even though Mr. Mujkic would
1 need to look at the Serbian version. And can we look at the English on
2 the other half of the screen now, please. It's 22 in the English
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Can I ask you to look at the bottom third of the page, where we
6 see that it says:
7 "In the morning, Mile Tintor came in, son of Mirko ..."
8 And so on and so forth. Can you look at that. Here, it's
9 somewhere in the middle. It's on the bottom half of the page:
10 "In the morning ..."
11 Yes, this is in the English.
12 Can you please look at this paragraph:
13 "I used to see him in Ahatovici, how he was, and so that he was
14 looting the stolen property."
15 Is this a description of the visit of these people to you while
16 you were captured, while you were a prisoner, a prisoner at the Rajlovac
18 A. Are you asking me?
19 Q. Yes, yes.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you. After that, in June 1997, you gave a statement to the
22 Prosecutor's Office of this Tribunal; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we now look at your
25 description of this event in the statement.
1 Can we look at 65 ter 22188. I think it's the same document, but
2 we just need to look at the 10th page in the Serbian and the 11th in the
3 English in the e-court. Same document, page 10 in the Serbian, page 11
4 in the English. Page 10 in the Serbian, page 11 in the English. The
5 following page in the English, please.
6 This is the sixth paragraph from the top or the third from the
8 "While I was ..."
9 No, no, this is in the hospital. We're talking about Rajlovac:
10 "While I was in Rajlovac on the 7th of August, 1992, I was
11 visited by Goran Lemez and Major Vlasto Apostolski. I asked Goran for a
12 cigarette. The major told me, 'His name is not Goran; he is a vojvoda, a
14 "Goran had a lot of paper regarding other prisoners."
15 Q. And then you describe Huso Gacanovic and Asim Novalija were
16 brought to Rajlovac, and so on and so forth.
17 Is this a correct description? Did you provide that statement?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And then you say that he was a member of the SDS; is that
21 A. To whom are you referring?
22 Q. To this vojvoda.
23 A. Goran Lemez? Yes.
24 Q. Do you know that the SDS did not have any titles, it didn't give
25 anybody a title, nor did it tolerate anybody having any kinds of titles?
1 A. Your Honours, I know exactly who said what. I didn't know about
2 the titles, but this is how they introduced themselves.
3 Vlasto Apostolski would always say, This person is a "vojvoda." For
4 another person, he said he was a "nadvojvoda," an archduke. I don't know
5 how they issued these titles or what they did.
6 Q. All right, we will find out later. In this passage, you describe
7 that these two persons also visited you in the Rajlovac Barracks on the
8 7th of August 1992?
9 A. But this was during the day.
10 Q. Then you gave another statement on the 24th of March, 1998,
11 where, for the third time, you described your stay at the Rajlovac
12 Barracks; is that correct?
13 A. I don't remember the dates anymore, what statement I provided,
14 when. What does it say in the statement?
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, let's refresh your
17 Can we look at 1D3269, please. 1D3269, 3269.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].
19 Q. Allow me to read this for you. Everybody can follow. We can
20 look at the first paragraph, the first two or three sentences:
21 "After my wounding and capture on the 6th of April, 1992, I know
22 that: that on the 6th of August, 1992, in the late evening hours,
23 Goran Lemez came to my cell at the Rajlovac Barracks, together with the
24 Rajlovac Brigade police commander, Vlasto Apostolovski, and asked me to
25 give a statement."
1 Is that correct?
2 A. He was the second person who entered my cell. The first one was
3 Mile Stojanovic, but Goran came to me on the 7th as well.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Later, we will tender
5 this when we finish with the document.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. After this statement to the OTP, you gave an additional statement
8 on the 8th of April, 2009; is that -- 2000; is that correct?
9 A. I don't remember the exact date, because I was at the Tribunal in
10 Nedzarici, I provided a statement there on two occasions. In 2004, I
11 gave a statement. I really cannot remember the dates, when I gave which
13 Q. All right. This is your statement that we're looking at on the
14 screen right now; is that correct?
15 A. I don't see that it's signed with my signature.
16 Q. This is page 1. Did you give a statement like this?
17 A. Well, it's very difficult to read. I cannot read it, and there
18 is no signature.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. We received this from
20 the OTP as your statement.
21 Can we now look at 1D --
22 JUDGE KWON: Why don't we show him the next page, the next page
23 and on.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We can, but we're just wasting
1 JUDGE KWON: No, in B/C/S.
2 Just a second. No, this is not the -- second page. That's the
3 last page.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Is this your handwriting?
6 A. Yes.
7 JUDGE KWON: And was it your signature you saw at page 4? Show
8 him the last page, please.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE KWON: Just a --
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did see the signature here. I
12 didn't see my signature in the earlier pages, and the place for the
13 signature was blank.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. And is this your statement that was retyped, and you actually
16 signed your handwritten; is that correct?
17 A. Yes, this is my signature in my handwriting.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 Can we now have 1D3268, please. This is an additional
20 supplemental statement that you gave on the 28th of April, 2000.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Is this your signature at the bottom?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. All right. Let's look at this second paragraph. Can we look at
1 "Regarding the incident that took place on the 6th of August,
2 1992, when I was wounded and captured by the members of the Serb military
3 formations, I now do remember chronologically that I was transported by
4 TAM to the Rajlovac Barracks in the evening hours and put in an
5 improvised cell. Stojanovic, Mile, came to take my personal details
6 later on. Lemez, Goran, and Apostolovski, Vlasto, a Macedonian, an
7 active serviceman who was employed in the former JNA barracks in Rajlovac
8 before the war as a 'plavac,' member of the air force in the rank of
9 captain first class ..."
10 Is that correct?
11 A. Yes, I know him.
12 Q. All right. We don't need to continue reading. Everyone can read
14 Can we read the second paragraph.
15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters, kindly, would like to look at
16 the original.
17 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. The original is in e-court. The
18 interpreters should be able to see them.
19 Please continue, Mr. Karadzic. Could you repeat the last part.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. This is the following paragraph. I haven't read the first one.
22 It's the second evening. In the English, we would need to look at the
23 next page:
24 "On the next evening, Mile Tintor, who was in civilian clothing,
25 and Lasta Apostolovski, came to the cell. After they entered the cell,
1 and when they saw me, Tintor addressed Apostolovski, 'What are you doing
2 with the wounded people, Major?' Then Apostolovski started to exonerate
3 himself and shrugged his shoulders. After that, Tintor again addressed
4 Apostolovski, 'Major, if anyone touches Ramiz from now on, you will see
5 who Mile Tintor is.' After that, nobody beat me, but they kept on taking
6 Gacanovic, Huso ...," and so on and so forth, "out."
7 So these two visits that you described here, and as say you were
8 visited by Lemez and Apostolovski, before that Mile Stojanovic, and after
9 that Tintor; is that correct?
10 A. Mile came in the afternoon, so I don't know why it says there
11 that it was in the evening. It was still light. In August, the days are
12 long. It's true that he did say that to Vlasto, and it's true that
13 nobody ever touched me after that, but they did beat these other two men,
14 Asim Novalija and the other guy.
15 Q. So a year after this supplemental statement, year and a half
16 after the supplemental statement, again you meet with the OTP of this
17 Tribunal, and for the fifth time you give an explanation in relation to
18 your statement from 1997; is that correct?
19 A. Well, I really cannot be sure of the dates again. I should have
20 kept a diary in order to keep track of everything. I cannot remember all
21 of that.
22 Q. Yes, we will call up these documents. You have the right to
23 refresh your memory.
24 Can we now look at 65 ter 22188 now, please, page 4 in e-court,
25 and page 5 in English. Let's look at paragraph 3 from the bottom in both
1 versions. It says:
2 "Page 5, paragraph 5, lines 1 and 2: It should be clarified that
3 when I was wounded and taken prisoner in Ilijas municipality, I was
4 driven to the Rajlovac Barracks in a TAM truck which belonged to the
5 Butile Barracks before the war and which had been at that time before the
6 war driven by Nikola Stanisic. On that day when I was driven into the
7 Rajlovac Barracks, the truck was driven by Slavisa Koprivica."
8 Is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Thank you. After that, you were summoned to come and testify in
11 the Momcilo Krajisnik case; is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. That was in 2004, 12 years after the event and 5 years after you
14 gave these statements and provided the addendum to the statements; is
15 that correct?
16 A. Well, yes, that's approximately the time-frame.
17 Q. So this testimony of yours is preceded by five statements, one
18 addendum to the statement, and your evidence given in the Krajisnik case.
19 You said that on the 7th of August, you were visited at Rajlovac Barracks
20 by the brother of Momcilo Krajisnik as well, whom you had never seen
21 before; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Would you like to see this to refresh your memory?
24 A. There's no need. I lived through it, and everything is in my
25 head. No need for that.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at your amalgamated
2 witness statement, which is 65 ter 90219.
3 The question was mistranslated, although I'm speaking more
4 slowly. Therefore, my proposition is that: After five statements and
5 addendums and twelve years after the event, for the first time in the
6 trial against Momcilo Krajisnik, you mentioned that his brother came to
7 visit you while you were in the cell; is that correct.
8 A. Yes.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let's look at your amalgamated
10 statement, page 12, paragraph 59.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. The first visit by Mile Stojanovic, the second visit by Goran and
13 Apostolski, the third visit Tintor and Apostolski; is that correct?
14 A. No. The third visit was paid by these three gentlemen,
15 Mr. Poplasen and Mirko, and the third person was in uniform. He didn't
16 say a word. I didn't know him, and he never addressed me. Of course, it
17 was Vlasto Apostolski who brought him in.
18 Q. Did you just mention the name of Poplasen?
19 A. Yes, I did.
20 Q. Now, I'm going to read it to you, paragraph 59, and it will be
21 translated to you:
22 [In English] "On the 7th of August, 1992, I received the third
23 visit to my cell that night. Major Vlasto Apostolski came in. He was
24 the commander of the military police of the Rajlovac Brigade, and three
25 men came in after him. I knew Apostolski from before. He was an active
1 captain. He introduced them and said of one, This is 'nadvojvoda.' This
2 man who was introduced as "nadvojvoda" was of middle build, perhaps a bit
3 skinny, and with a beard. This man was in civilian clothes. I recalled
4 him immediately as Nikola Poplasen because I used to see him from the TV.
5 He also had specific accent that wasn't from Sarajevo. One of the other
6 men was Mirko Krajisnik, who I recognised. I didn't recognise the third
7 man, and he didn't introduce him either. Krajisnik asked me to tell them
8 where Hasan Mujkic was hiding and Husein Mujkic, two brothers. Hasan
9 Mujkic was the head of the Ahatovici Territorial Defence, TO, because he
10 was a policeman before the war. He was an active-duty policeman. They
11 were looking for my son, Elvir Mujkic, and they were looking for
12 Junuz Mujkic, too."
13 And so on and so on.
14 [Interpretation] Mr. Mujkic, who suggested to you that after five
15 statements and amendments to the statements, and 12 years later -- you
16 should involve Mirko Krajisnik in your statement?
17 A. Your Honours, nobody suggested that to me. I did not mention
18 that in my first statement because it was completely pointless. I didn't
19 know what the reason for their visit was. However, when I came here to
20 this Tribunal for the first time, I listened to the telephone
21 conversations between Bakir Alispahic and Mirko Krajisnik. The second
22 conversation was between Mirko and Momcilo Krajisnik. And then
23 everything fell into place, the whole picture why they came to visit me.
24 Alispahic said, Tell me his son was killed, tell me how much money you
25 need, and this is where this conversation ends. Mirko wanted to see
1 Dzino, the vojvoda, and Spahic [as interpreted] was to locate him, and
2 that was the substance of this conversation. However, the conversation
3 between Momcilo and Mirko Krajisnik, Mirko told Momcilo, I've just
4 received a call by Bakir, but Spahic [as interpreted] is offering me
5 money. We have Ramiz Mujkic in Rajlovac, who is seriously wounded. Then
6 Momcilo responds by saying, If you don't have money, I can give it to
7 you. He's looking for our snipers, What kind of money are you talking?
8 So now I realised why they came to see me, and of course that was
9 something that landed me in hospital. I don't know if there was another
10 person --
11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please slowly repeat the
12 second part of his answer.
13 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Mujkic, the interpreters were not able to catch
14 up with your words, so could you repeat from the part referring to you
15 didn't know if there was another person.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never heard that there was any
17 other fortunate man who had a fixator implanted in 1992 during the bloody
18 conflict or the bloodiest conflicts that took place in the village of
19 Ahatovici, and I can also mention Rakovica, the neighbouring village, as
20 well as Svrake in Vogosca municipality.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Mr. Mujkic, a fixator is implanted in patients who have broken
23 bones. Why would it be implanted to someone else? Are you trying to say
24 that we did not treat the wounded people?
25 A. I know that I was in Blazuj Hospital. I knew that Serbian
1 wounded people came and wanted to see me as some kind of freak. And I
2 said that that's all I knew and that I couldn't confirm anything.
3 Q. Thank you. Who suggested to you that in addition to Mirko
4 Krajisnik, you mentioned the name of Mirko [as interpreted] Poplasen?
5 A. Do you really think that I am mad, that I need someone to tell me
6 what to speak about here? I can tell you at any time of the day what I
7 went through and lived through.
8 Q. Mr. Mujkic, the Defence has to examine why you -- and explore why
9 you didn't mention this in your first, second, third, fourth and fifth
10 statement, why you never mentioned such prominent figures before. How
11 did it come about that suddenly you remembered Mirko Krajisnik, and later
12 on Mirko [as interpreted] Poplasen? Did somebody tell you that Poplasen
13 was the commissioner in Vogosca?
14 A. Well, Vogosca is not miles away. I knew everything. But I'm
15 telling you again there was no need for anyone to suggest anything to me.
16 I used to see Nikola Poplasen on TV when I was at home. All these
17 sessions and meetings that took place before the war, he was shoulder to
18 shoulder with you, and he was among the highest echelons of the SDS.
19 Q. Mr. Mujkic, when did you see Mr. Poplasen on TV?
20 A. Towards the end of 1991 and the beginning of 1992. So it was not
21 just one day; it was every day.
22 Q. What was Nikola Poplasen's function at the time?
23 A. I am not a journalist or a reporter to be able to tell you which
24 position he's held, because I simply don't know. I know that he was
25 sitting next to you in some of the meetings.
1 Q. That were broadcast by TV?
2 A. At the time, we had only Sarajevo TV. There were no other TV
3 stations. In fact, there was TV Belgrade, but I was watching this on
4 Sarajevo TV.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at the transcript
6 of your evidence in the Krajisnik case. That's 65 ter 22191. In the
7 transcript, that's page 8005, and 84 in e-court.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. So you stand by your statement that you knew Nikola Poplasen from
10 television and from the political life?
11 A. I only knew him from TV. I didn't know him personally, and that
12 is the truth. And I made a declaration here that I was going to speak
13 the truth, and that is the truth.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 Can we now look at from line 3, the question is:
16 [In English] "Do you know the name Nikola Poplasen?"
17 [Interpretation] And then you say:
18 [In English] "Not until that time, but the man was the president
19 of the Serbian Republic and President Petric replaced him."
20 [Interpretation] A new question:
21 [In English] "Did you see Nikola Poplasen at any time in August
23 [No interpretation]:
24 [In English] "I didn't see anybody, just the people who came to
25 my cell."
1 [Interpretation] So you hadn't seen Nikola Poplasen entering your
2 cell with the other people. Now, I'm kindly asking you once again --
3 A. The translation was so unclear and so random that I cannot make
4 any connection between the details. Can you repeat, please?
5 Q. [In English] "Just the people who came to my cell, so no."
6 A. "So no," I think refers to Poplasen. Your Honours, this is taken
7 out of the context. Where did I give this statement?
8 Q. You were asked this question by this same Prosecutor, Mr. Gaynor,
9 who questioning you now, and this is stated in the Momcilo Krajisnik case
10 on transcript page 8005.
11 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Mujkic, this is a transcript of your evidence
12 given at the time of the trial against Mr. Momcilo Krajisnik, so this is
13 part of your evidence. I'll read it for you again.
14 So the question was this:
15 "Do you know the name Nikola Poplasen?"
16 And your answer is:
17 "Not until that time, but the man was the president of the
18 Serbian Republic, and President Petric replaced him.
19 "Q. Did you see Nikola Poplasen at any time in August 1992.
20 "A. I didn't see anybody, just the people who came to my cell.
21 So no."
22 So that's the transcript of your evidence.
23 So could you make any observation?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm really surprised that this
25 statement was recorded as such, because I couldn't have said this. It
1 doesn't make sense, because I knew Nikola Poplasen from TV. I knew him.
2 He came to my cell. However, the fact that she was the president of the
3 Serbian Republic is something that refers to postwar period, so this is
4 just a mish-mash of all various things. And, therefore, I cannot accept
5 this as my statement.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Mr. Mujkic, would you like to see the video footage of your
8 evidence on that day when you said what is recorded here?
9 A. It is impossible for me to have said something like this. The
10 essence is missing and the sequence is missing. I didn't see him --
11 there's mention of Petric. That was after the war, and I was not
12 concerned about him at the time.
13 Q. Who suggested to you to mention the name of Nikola Poplasen? The
14 Prosecutor asked you if you knew him and whether he came to your cell,
15 and you said he didn't. Now, who told you afterwards to mention
16 Nikola Poplasen alongside Mirko Krajisnik?
17 A. I categorically state here that nobody suggested that to me.
18 This was my experience that I, unfortunately, had. And I know these
19 three men who came to see me. Nikola Poplasen and Mirko Krajisnik came,
20 and this third man with a well-groomed beard who didn't ask me anything.
21 You're asking me for the third time who suggested this to me, and that
22 implies that I'm telling a lie, and that's not a lie.
23 Q. Mr. Mujkic, do you know what Nikola Poplasen did before the war?
24 A. I think he was a professor.
25 Q. And do you know that before the war, Nikola Poplasen didn't play
1 any role in the political life, nor was he a member of the SDS?
2 A. I don't care about that. I didn't keep any record of who was a
3 member or who was not. But I would really like to see if there were any
4 Serbs who weren't members of the SDS.
5 Q. Now, if I tell you that nowhere before the war, not in any
6 meeting with me or in some other meetings, did he participate, what do
7 you have to say to that?
8 A. I will tell you that you are not telling the truth.
9 Q. Do you know which party was Nikola Poplasen a member of?
10 A. Your Honours, is it possible for these questions not to be asked
11 of me? I only mentioned that Nikola Poplasen came to visit me in my
12 cell. What he did before the war is something that doesn't -- didn't
13 interest me.
14 Q. But you said that you saw him sitting next to me?
15 A. Yes, I saw him on TV, but I don't know which position he held.
16 Q. Let me help you, Mr. Mujkic. Nikola Poplasen was a distinguished
17 professor at the Faculty of Political Sciences. He was not involved in
18 any kind of politics, any kind of public life before the war. He was
19 asked, as a person of a high reputation, to go to Vogosca to help the
20 authorities there. Otherwise, he was president of the Serb Radical
21 Party, and, as such, he won the election.
22 JUDGE KWON: You are not giving evidence. I think that question
23 has been asked and answered. Let us move on.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Well, what I said, are you denying that? Are you denying that he
1 was president of the Radical Party?
2 A. Sir, I am not interested in that at all. I never mentioned the
3 position he held before the war. I saw him with you, and I know that he
4 was president of the municipality in Vogosca during the war. After the
5 war, he was president of the Serbian Republic, and Wolfgang Petric, the
6 high representative, removed him because of what you said, right, the
7 wonderful reputation he enjoyed. And we all know full well what that was
8 all about.
9 Q. Let you see now how come you mentioned out of the blue something
10 you refer to in the proofing.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 226190, 65 ter, can we have a look
12 at that. Can we have that transcript page from the Krajisnik trial --
13 can that be admitted, and all the previous ones, the ones we displayed
15 JUDGE KWON: Do you mean in their entirety?
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not necessarily; just individual
17 pages, the pages we displayed and that were commented upon by the
19 JUDGE KWON: Can I hear from you, Mr. Gaynor?
20 MR. GAYNOR: No objection to that request, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE KWON: Very well. I don't remember how long those
22 statements were, but we'll admit the relevant pages. If it is short,
23 there's no problem in admitting them all, but we admit what we have seen.
24 Shall we give the numbers, respectively? First, the 92 bis
1 THE REGISTRAR: The 92 bis statement, 65 ter 22188, will be
2 Exhibit D1101. The 1998 statement, which is 1D3269, will be
3 Exhibit D1102. The 2000 statement will be Exhibit D1103. That's 1D3268.
4 And the transcript page, 22191, will be Exhibit D1104.
5 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Let us see how you remembered all of this all of a sudden just
8 before you testified in Krajisnik.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have what I already
10 mentioned, 22190.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. This is additional information that you provided to the OTP just
13 before you testified. Let us see where it says -- the lower third of the
14 page, the 10th line.
15 JUDGE KWON: But it will be better for you to explain the nature
16 of this document, what this document is about.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. You gave additional information to the OTP in relation to your
19 statements and all of these things that happened after you were taken
20 prisoner and after you were taken to the prison in Planjo's house. Now,
21 I would be interested in the following: Do you remember that you
22 provided, on the 1st of November, 2004, just before you testified in the
23 Krajisnik case, that you provided some supplemental information?
24 A. I really cannot. I did not keep a diary as to when I said what.
25 But if it has my signature there, I stand by it.
1 Q. You are not directly quoted here. You are being interpreted here
2 by the learned Mr. Gaynor. I'm going to read this out to you, and you
3 are either going to recognise it or not:
4 [In English] "During the witness's detention at Planjo's house,
5 he witnessed a number of events of humiliation and cruelty carried out by
6 'weekend Chetniks' and prison guards, such as, first, forcing a May
7 detainee to eat used cigarettes and to perform oral sex on another male
8 detainee in the presence of guards and other detainees; and, second,
9 forcing detainees to dive off the high fence onto concrete."
10 [Interpretation] You provided a description here, and you
11 seriously accused people, and this is appalling. However, you never
12 mentioned any of that in your previous five statements given to the
13 authorities of Bosnia-Herzegovina and to the OTP, you never mentioned
14 that. You remembered that when you were supposed to appear before this
15 Court and testify against Momcilo Krajisnik; isn't that right?
16 A. That is not right. No one ever asked me about these things that
17 happened. Quite simply, in my first statement -- I mean, I wish I could
18 erase all of this from my memory, and I wish I had never seen any of
19 this, but it is true. I was with an investigator. I think that he was
20 from Australia. And we went to Planjo's house. I saw a photograph --
21 last Tuesday when I was being proofed here, I saw a photograph of
22 Planjo's house, and also there was this picture of the bus, the massacre
23 that occurred at Sastina [phoen], and he asked me what the attitude of
24 the Serb guards was towards you then, you, the detainees. Then I spoke
25 of this excessive conduct -- excuse me for a moment. The man was
1 appalled by what I told him. I mean, when you get there and when you
2 actually see the spot, and when you see that he jumped there to prove
3 that he could swim. So those two statements were afterwards included in
4 my statement.
5 Q. Oh, I see. So you were instigated by the Australian
7 A. No, sir, he did not instigate me. He just asked me what the
8 attitude was. He didn't force me to say anything. I just told him about
9 what had happened. You are twisting things.
10 Q. Why didn't you say that in your first statement to the
11 authorities of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
12 A. To the authorities of Bosnia-Herzegovina? Well, to tell you the
13 truth, I did not know at the time how far all of this would go, and
14 nobody really asked me anything. They knew about torture. Sir, you know
15 all of that full well, except that you are evading the truth. Not even
16 the prison of God is good, let alone a Serb prison. I'm not saying that
17 prisons are much better, I mean, other ones.
18 Q. Muslim prisons?
19 A. Well, if the prison of God is not good, nobody's prison is good.
20 Q. All right. Let us see what you said in your amalgamated
21 statement, that is 65 ter --
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Actually, can we have this admitted
23 as well?
24 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Gaynor.
25 MR. GAYNOR: No objection, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes. But when was it, Mr. Mujkic, that you said to
2 the Australian investigator about the horrible incidents during your
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please don't take my word for the
5 date, but before I came for the first time in 2004. We were there in the
6 summer, and then I came in October/November 2004 for the first time, so I
7 cannot say exactly what the date was, but it was summertime, it was very
9 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
10 That will be admitted as Exhibit D1105.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Mr. Mujkic, were you a member of the Crisis Staff in Ahatovici?
13 A. No, I was not. I state that with full responsibility. However,
14 upon orders of the Crisis Staff, I remained in Butile Barracks until the
15 9th of May. And then on the 9th of May, I escaped, because they wanted
16 to put a uniform on me and to issue weapons to me, and then I could not
17 go home. On the 9th of May, Sokolje was attacked, because that day was
18 not really a normal day at the Butile Barracks.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. We'll go back to that.
20 Let's look at 65 ter 22188, page 16, in e-court.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. That is your statement to the AID in 1996, that is, the secret
23 police of the Muslim part of Bosnia; right?
24 A. I gave a statement at the police building. I mean, quite simply,
25 I wasn't interested in who was who. As for the AID, I don't really know
1 people. For the most part, they wore civilian clothes.
2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We cannot hear the
3 witness. Other microphones are on. Could they all please be switched
4 off. Thank you.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] In English, it's page 18, and in
6 Serbian, it's page 16.
7 JUDGE KWON: I'm not sure the interpreters followed the last bit
8 of your question and answer.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Yes, I think everything
10 was interpreted, but with great difficulty. Thank you.
11 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
12 Let's continue.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have page 16 in
14 Serbian and page 18 in English of this statement.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. If you look at the Serbian page, look at the name of
17 Alija Delimustafic in line 15. I think that is going to help you find
18 that page, capital letters. And over here in English, it's around the
20 [In English] "To TO: I informed the commander of the TO, Hasan
21 Mujkic ..."
22 It says:
23 "I informed the commander of the TO, Hasan Mujkic, about this,
24 who told me that he was working on the order of Alija Delimustafic, the
25 then minister of the interior, and he showed me a fax message that he had
1 received, which said that the army barracks in Butile should not be
2 attacked. Three or four days later, a message came from Delimustafic
3 that the army barracks in Butile should be taken. It was already too
4 late because we found out that, in the meantime, intervention units of
5 the Serb volunteers, called the White Eagles, had arrived there."
6 Let us see now how you explained all of this in your testimony in
7 the Krajisnik case. It's the very same occurrence.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, let us remember this page,
9 and now let us have 65 ter 22191. 22191, page 150 in e-court, and 9240
10 in the transcript, itself.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Let us look at line 14:
13 [In English]
14 "Q. Now, do you agree with me, Mr. Mujkic, that you don't say
15 anything there about that order from Mr. Delimustafic that the army
16 barracks in Butile should be taken over was just a rumour being put about
17 by women?"
18 [Interpretation] Your answer:
19 [In English] "It doesn't say so here, but that's the truth,
20 because I didn't see the second fax and the statement doesn't say that I
21 saw it."
22 [Interpretation] Question:
23 [In English] "Now, you've gotten that last sentence there: 'It
24 was already too late because we found out in the meantime.' Who was the
1 [Interpretation] Answer:
2 [In English] "Well, the Crisis Staff."
3 [Interpretation] Did you say that?
4 A. I cannot remember whether I said it. It is possible that I did.
5 I was not a member of the Crisis Staff. However, I just wish to explain
6 here to clarify something. I haven't said that anywhere before, but I
7 shouldn't go on forever. Six soldiers remained in Butile Barracks. They
8 were ethnic Albanians. They did not manage to withdraw from the
9 barracks. And there was a Croat who was left there, and I didn't know
10 that he was a Croat otherwise I would have gotten him out, because I did
11 get five Croat soldiers out, anyway.
12 During the night, because he was my messenger, because I was a
13 mechanic and the bakery in Butile had to operate, and then this messenger
14 would come to see me whenever possible and he brought me news as to what
15 was going on, and then he said, The barracks can be taken, because
16 Nikola Soput's unit has left and there are only a few drunken reservists
17 there. And I told Hasan Mujkic about that. He sent a fax to
18 Delimustafic. The fax returned: "Do not touch the Butile Barracks. I
19 saw that, and I guarantee that that's the way it was.
20 Soon afterwards, three, four, five days later, whatever, Hasan
21 called me and said, A fax arrived that the barracks should be taken. A
22 soldier did not come to see me after that. And I said, I'm not going
23 there anymore. And that was that.
24 Q. Thank you. The Crisis Staff of Ahatovici, did it place any
1 A. We did not place any roadblocks, but we had three trenches
2 opposite us, because Ahatovici and Dobrosevici are separated only by a
3 road, and we are about 50 metres from the road. That's why we had three
4 trenches where weapons were. People came there in shifts, the weapons
5 stayed there, but we did not have any roadblocks, no.
6 Q. And it says here that you blocked the approaches to Ahatovici and
7 Dobrosevici, right, and that was ordered by the Crisis Staff; right?
8 A. No, that's not true, because Dobrosevici was primarily populated
9 by Serbs, so it was not possible for me to go in front of a Serb house
10 and to put a roadblock there.
11 Q. All right. Let us have a look at this now --
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have a number for this
13 transcript page that we have shown just now, transcript page 9240, the
14 Krajisnik transcript.
15 JUDGE KWON: Do you like to tender it?
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, please.
17 JUDGE KWON: Shall we add it to the already-existing transcript
18 or shall we admit it separately?
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, very well.
20 JUDGE KWON: We'll add it to the previous one, which is
21 Exhibit D1104.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. You say that you did not block the approaches to Ahatovici and
24 Dobrosevici because Dobrosevici was populated by Serbs, predominantly by
25 Serbs; is that right?
1 A. I said that I wasn't in the Crisis Staff. There was nothing else
2 I could do. As for the roadblocks, I don't know. My house is at the
3 beginning of Ahatovici, and across from there immediately is the
4 settlement of Dobrosevici. My neighbours across the street were Serbs.
5 My house was on the right-hand side. There were no roadblocks there,
6 other than two roadblocks the Reljevo and Bojnik bridges. These were two
7 main arteries leading to the town. I mean, what would be the point of
8 the roadblocks if you cannot go to town? Why would I be going to
10 Q. On line 21 -- page 20, line 26 of today's transcript, you say:
11 [In English] "So it was not possible for me to go in front of the
12 Serb house and to put a roadblock there."
13 [Interpretation] Let us now see what you said in your statement
14 from 1996. This is the same 65 ter 22188, on page 15 and page 17 in the
15 English. 65 ter 22188.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And can we tender this page 16 as
17 well? We can add it to the same number, the page 16 where we talked
18 about Delimustafic.
19 MR. GAYNOR: Mr. President, in light of the fact that the witness
20 is putting quite -- that the accused is putting quite a number of pages
21 from these statements to the witness, I submit that the easiest thing
22 might be to do, to admit the statements in their entirety, both of the
23 prior statements that have been shown to the witness by the accused.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would need a lot more time, then,
25 for the cross-examination, because then I would need to shed light for
1 the other aspects. All I'm interested in is what I'm citing in the
2 courtroom. If I get more time, then I have nothing against that, but
3 let's not lose any more time now.
4 JUDGE KWON: Very well, let's do that. Given that we did not
5 admit so many pages so far, so we'll follow that. That will be added to
6 the transcript.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at page 17 in the
8 English so that everyone can see what we are looking at. In the Serbian,
9 it should be page 17; page 3 in the actual statement. What I'm looking
10 at here is page 5, actually. It should be page 3 in the Serbian, and in
11 the English -- actually, that is page 15 in the e-court in the Serbian,
12 page 15 in the e-court in Serbian. And English, page 17 in e-court.
13 Thank you, and let's get the correct page in the English.
14 Page 17 in the e-court, and that is actually page 4 in the statement,
15 itself. The English is good and the Serbian is good.
16 The last paragraph in English, and now we will see where that is
17 in the Serbian. The bottom third in the English. It says:
18 "Armed Serbs set up barricades on the road as early as March as
19 an introduction into war activities, and they controlled the traffic and
20 passengers with a constant mistreatment. As a reply to their activities,
21 we also set up check-points in the villages of Ahatovici and
22 Dobrosevici ..."
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Did you state that, sir?
25 A. I couldn't have said anything like that, because I was not in the
1 Crisis Staff. It's not just -- Ahatovici is not just the place where my
2 house is, it's a broader area, and it doesn't make any sense for us to be
3 setting up check-points in Dobrosevici. There were two main barricades
4 on the two bridges, and whoever passed that way would experience
5 mistreatment, and all entrances and exits were monitored.
6 Q. In this statement, though, you said that you did place a
7 roadblock in front of Dobrosevici. Did somebody change or alter these
8 statements, and do you stand by what you said there?
9 A. It's impossible to have that in Dobrosevici. It's Serbian all
10 the way from Dobrosevici to Ahatovici, it's all Serb houses. Sir, I
11 mean, as I said before, I cannot go in front of a Serbian house and place
12 a barricade there.
13 Q. All right. We're going to see later how that goes.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at 65 ter 90219,
15 and can we add this page, please?
16 JUDGE KWON: Is it not already in the evidence, or only part of
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't think so.
19 JUDGE KWON: Could you let us know the page numbers of this
20 document which we have already admitted?
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We admitted -- or asked to have
22 page 16 in the Serbian and page 18 in the English, then here we have page
23 15 in the Serbian and page 17 in the English.
24 JUDGE KWON: We are admitting from 16 to 18, the pages. That
25 being the case, I see no problem. We'll admit it.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 Can we now look at 65 ter 90219. This is your consolidated
3 statement, paragraphs 35 to 38. That's in English, yes, the consolidated
4 statement. 65 ter 90219, consolidated statement of Mr. Mujkic,
5 paragraphs from 35 to 38.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. And now here you describe the events in Gornja Bioca. Do you
8 remember describing that on this page of your statement?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Let's look at paragraph 36, where it says:
11 "Unfortunately ..."
12 [In English] "... I did not meet up with our group. Instead, I
13 encountered Serbs near the village of Gornja Bioca who had been taken
14 over the village and were now pushing from the north. These were voices
15 of the Serb soldiers going from Ilijas. According to the way they spoke
16 and the swear words they used, I realised that it was the Serb Army."
17 [Interpretation] So here you assert, before this Tribunal, in
18 this statement that you were personally at that place, at that time, and
19 that you concluded that it was the Serbian soldiers because they were
21 A. I'm very familiar with the way Serbian soldiers speak. I was
22 born there. I was 44, and I had lived there all that time, so I am very
23 familiar with that jargon.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The answer begins with: "Yes," for
25 the purposes of the transcript. Please, can we note that the witness
1 first said, "Yes," at the beginning of the answer.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Is that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. The other soldiers don't swear; is that correct?
6 A. Your Honours, I can explain. For example, somebody would
7 pronounce "bread" in a different way. For example, they wouldn't say
8 "hleb," they would say, "leb," and this is something that I heard when I
9 came to that place. And I could tell because they were dropping the Hs.
10 The houses were empty, there was nobody there. Bioca was occupied the
11 day before, so these forces started moving from Ahatovici forward towards
12 the north.
13 JUDGE KWON: We'll have a break, if it is convenient.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just one question, if I may just
15 round off this part, Your Honour.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. In your testimony --
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we tender this document,
20 JUDGE KWON: Is it not his amalgamated statement?
21 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, I believe it's P2314.
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we then look at 65 ter 22191,
24 please, so that we can see what you stated in the Krajisnik trial.
25 65 ter 22191, page 25 in the e-court. And in the transcript, this is
1 page 7946, line 10:
2 [In English] "On the 22nd of August, I was brought from the
3 hospital, Zica Blazuj, the Ilijas municipality, to Planjina Kuca,
4 Planjina house in Semizovac.
5 "Q. Now, sir, you said that the population of Gornja Bioca had
6 been taken away to the school of Donja Bioca. Who took them away?"
7 [Interpretation] Answer:
8 [In English] "Sir, Your Honours, I can't say -- or rather, on the
9 basis of their stories and what they said, this was done by the Serb
10 Army, the Serbian soldiers, the units of the Ilijas municipality, in
11 fact. I can't comment. I can't guarantee. I didn't see it myself. But
12 what I did see ..."
13 And so on and so on.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].
15 Q. So there is no mention of swear words or anything about you
16 hearing and being able to recognise the rhetoric of the Serbian soldiers?
17 A. Well, Your Honours, you cannot take it like that. We're talking
18 about some 20 days -- actually, three months after that. I heard the
19 swear words on the 31st of May, 1992. I'm a little bit unsure about the
20 dates here.
21 As for the people in Semizovac in prison --
22 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
23 Yes, Mr. Gaynor.
24 MR. GAYNOR: I can raise this in redirect, but if the accused is
25 going to put that part of the answer to the witness, he should carry on a
1 little further down through the answer and put the rest of it to the
2 witness. I think he knows the part I'm talking about. Just simply the
3 next three sentences, if he could put those to the witness, out of
4 fairness to the witness.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, let's look at it:
6 [In English] "What I did see and I did happen to meet those Serb
7 soldiers who had already cleared Bioca and moved towards Ahatovici. So
8 there was an order to this. I didn't see that actually happen, but
9 judging by what they said, yes, because the 3rd unit wasn't there, the
10 one that could have done that."
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Well, it's the whole answer and it's different from what you said
13 in paragraph 36 of the consolidated statement; isn't that right?
14 A. You mixed up a lot of things here. I understand your status and
15 I understand that it's in your interests to mix things up, but you cannot
16 mix things up because I am going to say everything in the sequence
17 according to the dates as things happened. I lived through that. It's
18 my life. Nobody wrote it down for me to be able to learn it off by
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, I will really need to
21 have some extra time. I'm really frustrated by this lack of time. I
22 mean, we can take the break now, but I would really like to ask for an
23 entire session.
24 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll add this page to the Exhibit D1104.
25 And we'll have a break for 25 minutes. We'll resume at seven
1 minutes past 4.00.
2 --- Recess taken at 3.41 p.m.
3 --- On resuming at 4.10 p.m.
4 JUDGE KWON: Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 From the document 22188, 65 ter, can we have pages --
7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused please repeat the page
9 JUDGE KWON: Page numbers?
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Those are pages, in e-court, 19 and
11 22, Serbian and English respectively, and the second part is number 10
12 and 11, Serbian and English respectively.
13 JUDGE KWON: Did you say you are tendering those pages?
14 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes, they will be added to the exhibit.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Mr. Mujkic, you were born in 1948; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Were you born in Ahatovici?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Was Ahatovici in Rajlovac municipality at the time or was it the
22 district of Rajlovac which later became the municipality?
23 A. As far as I know, we were part of Novo Sarajevo municipality.
24 And when Novi Grad municipality was established, which is about 10
25 kilometres from Novo Sarajevo, we became part of Novi Grad.
1 Q. Do you know that up until 1958, when you were 10, Rajlovac used
2 to be a municipality, and Ahatovici was part of that municipality?
3 A. I don't remember that. A 10-year-old child did not necessarily
4 need to know in which municipality or district he lived.
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Gaynor.
6 MR. GAYNOR: I object on the ground of relevance. It's a totally
7 irrelevant question.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I please have document 1D03259.
9 Your Excellency, I would like to remind you that Donia and other
10 witnesses, including this witness, objected to the process of
11 establishing the Serbian municipality of Rajlovac. Our proposition was
12 that it used to be a municipality, that it was abolished and driven into
13 poverty because all the major economic assets were moved to Novi Grad
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. What is written in your birth certificate?
17 A. That I was born in Ahatovici village and that I was a citizen of
19 Q. No municipality?
20 A. Novi Grad municipality. It is true, there was a register office
21 in Rajlovac, and these records were moved to Pale. I know that because I
22 work at Novi Grad Municipality and I am familiar with these procedures.
23 And even UNPROFOR had to intervene for those records to be returned to
24 Novi Grad municipality that belonged to them.
25 Q. Rajlovac municipality never existed. Now, look at --
1 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, look at this document. Why do we not
2 have English translation?
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We didn't have time,
4 Your Excellency. We were going to translate the whole interview, but I
5 only wanted to ask Mr. Mujkic whether he knew that Rajlovac municipality
6 had existed until 1958 in which there were Orao factory, a distribution
7 centre, Sprint, Sarajevo Gas, and other important economic enterprises
8 were located there.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, Orao is located
10 within the compound of the Rajlovac Barracks, and it was part of the
11 military complex. Therefore, it was never part of the civilian
12 structure. The distribution centre was built in the 1980s, and that used
13 to be just an agricultural co-operative with barren fields. And there
14 were about 50 houses there, the land taken from the farmers, pursuant to
15 Tito's decree, and taken to -- and given to the co-operative.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. You can say whatever you like. This municipality was renewed in
18 February 1992 as a municipality, which means before the war.
19 A. My dear sir, we had barricades at the time. The first barricades
20 were set up in January on the Reljevo Bridge, and no Muslim could pass
21 through. And there's only 300 metres from the bridge to the distribution
22 centre, where your wartime municipality was. For your information, as
23 the secretary of the local commune in 1996, I had an office in the
24 distribution centre, because everything across the bridge had been
25 demolished, and it was impossible to move because of the land-mines until
1 a team established that there were no mines.
2 Q. You deny that this was a municipality, and it says the contrary
4 A. It was wartime. I couldn't go there, I never mentioned it, and I
5 don't want to talk about it.
6 Q. You say that Orao company was not a civilian company?
7 A. Orao was part of the military industry, and it was within the
8 compound of the Rajlovac Barracks.
9 Q. In your statement of the 22nd, June 1997, page 2, you say that
10 Orao was a civilian company, run by the military?
11 A. Well, that's one-and-the-same thing, it just being formulated
12 differently. It was within the barracks, and no one had access there,
13 other than through the main gate, and people were coming to and from
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Are we going to tender this
16 interview into evidence and, actually, marked for identification?
17 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, when I asked you why we do not have an
18 English translation of this document, you said you wanted to ask -- you
19 wanted to ask the question to the witness, a question which is totally
20 unrelated to this interview. You have been repeatedly warned by the
21 Trial Chamber that you must have English translations of all your
22 documents in order to use them in the courtroom. I think we have been
23 very generous in permitting you to make use of untranslated documents
24 thus far. And I also advise you to better organise your team and make
25 use of the Tribunal's translation tracking system, et cetera.
1 Please take this advice to heart. Next time, we may stop you
2 using untranslated documents.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I fully understand and
4 I accept that, but I have to say that this pace that I am trying to
5 maintain is extremely difficult and neck-breaking.
6 The question whether the municipality of Rajlovac was established
7 for economic or political reasons was something that was raised by
8 Prosecution witnesses, primarily Donia, and this was also mentioned by
9 this witness, which I don't think they found too pleasant or acceptable.
10 JUDGE KWON: But with respect to this clip, did the witness say
11 anything about this one? I don't see any basis.
12 Mr. Gaynor.
13 MR. GAYNOR: I agree, Mr. President.
14 I'm not in a position to comment on a very informed basis,
15 because I have no idea what this article says, but I don't believe the
16 witness has said anything to confirm this article.
17 JUDGE KWON: Let us proceed, Mr. Karadzic.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 Q. Mr. Mujkic, you worked as a civilian in the Yugoslav People's
20 Army; is that correct?
21 A. Yes, from the 1st of October, 1967.
22 Q. Thank you. As a JNA employee, did you have certain obligations
23 towards this army, in terms of loyalty, confidentiality, et cetera?
24 A. Yes, while it was the Yugoslav People's Army.
25 Q. And when did you decide that it was no longer the Yugoslav
1 People's Army and that you do not owe it any loyalty or any obligation to
2 observe the Rules of Service?
3 A. When Yugoslavia started to disintegrate, first it was called rump
4 Yugoslavia, and the behaviour of the military personnel, officers and
5 soldiers, was completely disrupted. When they removed the five-pointed
6 star and put instead the insignia of the Serbian Army, that wasn't the
7 Yugoslav People's Army for me any longer.
8 Q. Was that in September of 1991?
9 A. I know that you like to refer to dates. However, I cannot
10 confirm this. It was towards the end now of 1991, though.
11 Q. Did you persuade, in September of 1991, your son to desert from
12 the JNA?
13 A. Yes, and I managed to pull him out from Sremska Mitrovica during
14 my third attempt to take him out. He was driving Seselj's men towards
15 Vukovar and Vinkovci, and people used to ridicule him for the fact that
16 they thought that he looked nice with a cockade. And in September 1991,
17 I personally took him out of the army.
18 Q. And in September 1991, the Serbs wore cockade -- the
19 Yugoslav People's Army wore cockades?
20 A. In Croatia, yes.
21 Q. Well, this is news to me, Mr. Mujkic.
22 A. I think you know that very well.
23 Q. Why didn't you mention that earlier? Rather, you said that you
24 persuaded him to secretly leave the JNA in September.
25 A. He served in Topci [phoen] there, in Belgrade, and he left in
1 this 18-kilometre convoy. I didn't see it, personally. I saw it on TV
2 only. And his unit was stationed in Sremska Mitrovica. Those were
3 combat operations conducted against Croatia and Vukovar. And I don't
4 know which person of a sound mind would allow his own child to go and
5 fight for somebody else's interests.
6 Q. At that point, Bosnia was still part of Yugoslavia, and no
7 decision was yet made to secede, nor was it recognised?
8 A. I wasn't on the Presidency of Bosnia. Therefore, I wouldn't like
9 to remember these things. I wasn't part of that, and, therefore, I don't
10 want to answer that question.
11 Q. In this same statement from 1997, on page 3, you say the
12 following, and that is while you were working at the barracks:
13 "Because I was a Muslim, I try not to observe too many things,
14 but at least on 10 occasions I saw people arriving in cars."
15 Did you make a point of trying to observe as little as possible?
16 A. Pursuant to an order of the Crisis Staff, I remained in the
17 barracks until the 9th of May. And for your information, I wasn't on the
18 payroll during the months of March and April, because we received our
19 salaries in cash rather than through the savings bank. But I stayed
20 behind precisely because I wanted to see what was going on.
21 Butile Barracks was close by, and everything was normal until a military
22 police unit with Colonel Nikola Soput came, and then everything went
24 Q. Thank you. And pursuant to an order of the Crisis Staff, you
25 stayed behind to spy on the army in which you were working as a civilian?
1 A. Sir, as soon as they removed their five-pointed star, they were
2 no longer the army I worked for. They became a Serbian Army. And for
3 your information, although you know that very well, the Croatian
4 personnel, both the soldiers and the officers, left it. The people from
5 Kosovo left it as well, as much as they could, because it was difficult
6 for them to reach Kosovo. And Muslims were also leaving en masse. And
7 as an electrician who was working at the bakery, Nikola Soput told me
8 personally, Make sure that there is bread for each soldier, and for the
9 rest, don't have any problems. And that is why I stayed.
10 Q. Mr. Mujkic, a minute ago you said that you stayed as ordered by
11 the Crisis Staff, and I think you repeated that in your 1996 statement,
12 and that the purpose of that was to inform the TO of Ahatovici about the
13 developments in the barracks. Is that it?
14 A. Well, yes, that's it, and I'm not ashamed of that.
15 Q. Thank you. You said that the people of Ahatovici, in February
16 1992, which means before the elections and before barricades, introduced
17 nightly patrols and that they had been preparing for war. They didn't
18 have enough weapons, but you, nevertheless, had permanent positions and
19 dugouts around the village?
20 A. You have enumerated so many things. I don't remember saying
21 anything to that effect, but it is true that we had three trenches facing
22 Dobrosevici with three automatic rifles, and people rotated, because the
23 remaining weapons were hunting rifles or some make-shift rifles made of
24 water-pipes. You might not believe it. But as for these sheds and
25 barricades that you mentioned, I don't know about that.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have this statement, which
2 is 65 ter 22188 from 1997? It's page 3 in hard copy, and I don't know
3 which page it is in e-court. So page 3.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. While we are waiting: Mr. Mujkic, can we agree that the first
6 barricades were erected on the 1st or 2nd of March, 1992?
7 A. Which barricades are you having in mind, specifically? Because
8 you are moving left and right, I would like you to tell me exactly which
9 barricades you mean.
10 Q. The first barricades erected by the Serbs. Were they erected on
11 the 1st of March, after the killing of a member of the Serbian wedding
12 party in Sarajevo?
13 A. I don't want to talk about Sarajevo. I had no need to go to the
14 city because my house was on the left bank of the River Bosna. I didn't
15 go to the city in those days because it was risky. Therefore, I'm not
16 going to answer this question.
17 And as for these two barricades on the bridge, it is true that
18 they were erected, and initially it was possible to pass through. But
19 later on, public transportation buses would stop people, ID would be
20 checked, et cetera.
21 Q. Thank you. The checks were carried out in April, after the war
22 broke out in Sarajevo; right?
23 A. It was in March too, sir. And in February, the barricade on the
24 bridge in Reljevo had already been placed because - how shall I put
25 this? - there are 500 metres apart. It's only the Bosna River that
1 divided them. Well, no Muslim could get through that.
2 Q. Why did no one ever report on this in the media or in official
3 reports, that before the 1st of March, there were some barricades,
4 Mr. Mujkic? How come nobody knows that there were no barricades?
5 A. Well, I've already told you where I worked, and I worked there as
6 an electrician. And I wasn't a journalist, I wasn't supposed to send
7 reports to the media.
8 Q. I'm not sure that this is that statement, 65 ter --
9 JUDGE KWON: Try page 8.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's the 92 bis package, 22198,
11 I think.
12 JUDGE KWON: I meant the B/C/S 8, the next page for the English.
13 Is this it?
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Could you please focus on this:
17 "People in the village of Ahatovici ..."
18 The fourth paragraph from the top:
19 "People in the village of Ahatovici introduced, in February 1992,
20 some neither patrols after the Serb reservists placed a check-point
21 across the Bosna River right by the barracks."
22 Were there any Serb reservists there in February 1992 or was this
23 the JNA fully legitimately in Bosnia, and Bosnia was part of Yugoslavia?
24 A. Well, soldiers who did their military service had an extension of
25 three months, and then six months, because new soldiers were not being
1 brought in. At the time, reservists came, and they were arming. Some of
2 them stayed in barracks, but sniper shooters went outside the barracks.
3 They were just issued with camouflage uniforms and sniper rifles, and
4 they left the barracks. And I believe, and I say this with full
5 responsibility, there were reservists at the end of February and the
6 beginning of March at the Butile Barracks.
7 Q. What about Vehbija Karic, Enver Hadzihasanovic, and Karavelic?
8 I'm not sure about Karavelic, actually. Were they still in the Command
9 of the 2nd Military District, the 4th Corps in Sarajevo?
10 A. I don't know about Karavelic, but I know about Enver Zejnilagic,
11 because he was commander of the Butile Barracks. And for your
12 information, I can say to you that I took his car out. He had a Skoda, a
13 new Skoda car. It had only 2.000 miles on it. And he left the gate, and
14 there was no -- there were no guards there. But before the Bosna River,
15 I gave him his car and we said goodbye, and I never saw him again. I
16 don't know about the others. I didn't go up there.
17 Q. Thank you. Please look at this same paragraph. This is what
18 you're saying --
19 JUDGE KWON: Next for the English.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. In the same paragraph, you say:
22 "After April 1992, the Muslims were not allowed to pass at all."
23 JUDGE KWON: The previous page, page 3, the page --
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's the same in Serbian, the same
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. "The village of Ahatovici ...."
3 Do you see there:
4 "At first, they did not check anyone. After, they started doing
5 random checks. After April 1992, Muslims were not allowed to pass that
6 way at all. Serbs, however, could pass check-points at any time. This
7 check-point did not stop me from arriving at work, but only from arriving
8 in Sarajevo."
9 Do you know that after the 5th of April, front-lines were
10 established in Sarajevo, and that's why you could not get into Sarajevo?
11 A. I'm saying now and I'll say it again: I had no need to go to
12 Sarajevo because the barracks were only 2 kilometres away from my home on
13 the left bank of the Bosna river, so I didn't have to go to that
14 check-point. As for Sarajevo, when the front lines were established,
15 you're supposed to know that because you're the one who organised them.
16 Q. We're going to leave your remarks aside. Let us look at the next
18 "We patrolled only during the night."
19 And look at this, what it says here:
20 "There was no co-ordination with larger units."
21 You had Territorial Defence, 200 men, and there was no
22 co-ordination with larger units. The TO was not well armed, but they did
23 have some permanent positions around the village, dug outs, and cottages.
24 When did you build all of that for war purposes?
25 A. There were no dugouts there ever. I don't know how this came up.
1 I do not remember saying that. Trenches, everyone knows what a trench
2 is. And then a tarpaulin is placed on it so that rain would not fall
3 into it. But - I don't know - say howitzers, mortars, et cetera, we
4 didn't have that kind of weaponry.
5 Q. What was it that you knew, Mr. Mujkic? What was it that you knew
6 and that other people did not know, and how come you then sent your
7 daughter to Germany in April 1992? Or did others also know and send
8 other people out?
9 A. I knew because I watched you on TV every night.
10 Q. And you sent your daughter to Germany, and your son stayed in the
11 Territorial Defence; right?
12 A. I also begged him, besieged him, not to leave, and he said,
13 Father, the Chetniks are going to come here, and you don't know what the
14 Chetniks are. They put a cockade on my head. I know. So,
15 psychologically, I'm at peace from that point of view. Regrettably, I
16 still don't know where his bones are.
17 Q. Thank you. Did anybody else send their children out, civilians?
18 A. Whoever had someone in Germany, they did, especially children who
19 were minors. And I'm glad that at least my daughter is alive.
20 Otherwise, who knows what would have happened had she stayed behind.
21 Q. On this same page, you say, both in English and Serbian, on --
23 "The attack on Ahatovici started with shelling from 3.00 p.m. on
24 the 29th of May, 1992, and it lasted until 9.00 p.m."
25 Is that right?
1 A. On the 29th, it was a Friday, around 3.00 in the afternoon. The
2 first tank shell exploded in the upper part of Ahatovici, from the
3 Rajlovac Barracks, because my house is a bit shielded by a hill, so they
4 could not hit my house from the Rajlovac Barracks, and that is the truth.
5 Q. Thank you. Is it correct if I say that almost two months went
6 by, that is to say, 50 days, from the breaking out of the war in
7 Sarajevo, and you did not have any conflict with the Serbs around you;
9 A. Well, that would be it, roughly.
10 Q. Thank you. Is it true that you attacked the Serb parts of the
11 local commune on the 29th and that the Serbs responded on the 30th of
13 A. The truth is the exact opposite, sir.
14 Q. Now we're going to have a look at that, Mr. Mujkic. This is a
15 piece of news from the 3rd of May. This is what it says:
16 "On Sunday, the 3rd of May, 1992, at 10.15, a rocket attack
17 started by the Green Berets from the direction of Visoko and Breza. At
18 the same time, an infantry attack was carried out against the Serbian
19 village of Dobro, and on that occasion eight Serbs were killed."
20 And so on.
21 Are you aware of that?
22 MR. GAYNOR: Sorry. Before you answer --
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, look, I mean, the entire war,
24 I cannot deal with all of that. Your Honours, I don't want questions
25 like this. This doesn't have to do with my statement. I don't know
1 about this, I never mentioned it. Do you want me to tell you about what
2 was going on in Pale as well?
3 MR. GAYNOR: Mr. President, could I ask the accused to direct us
4 to the piece of news from the 3rd of May that he's referring to so we can
5 follow the proceedings?
6 JUDGE KWON: Given that the citation was not that long, I just
7 let it go, instead of seeing an untranslated newspaper again. But you
8 referred to a newspaper. If you're going to put a question, do so. And
9 if you would like to read out from a document, you have to show that
10 document to the witness.
11 Let's move on.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's from a news agency.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. But, Mr. Mujkic, I don't know how much time I have. I'm just
15 going to say something to you now, and you are free to say whether it's
16 right or wrong or whatever. No problem whatsoever.
17 This is a piece of news from a news agency. Since I don't have
18 it translated, I didn't dare to --
19 A. I would just like to know whether it's written in Cyrillic.
20 Q. Why does that matter, Mr. Mujkic?
21 A. Because if it is in Cyrillic, then there is no truth in it.
22 Q. Ah, I see. The truth cannot be written in Cyrillic?
23 A. Well, it can be written in Cyrillic, but not at that time, it
25 Q. Now I'm going to put certain things to you that are part of the
1 Defence case, and that is legitimate. So, please, don't get angry. You
2 can just say, Yes, No, or, I don't know.
3 So the local commune of Dobrosevici included the village of
4 Ahatovici, almost 90 per cent of the population was Muslim, and then
5 Vojnik, Mihajlevici, and Dobrosevici. Some of them are purely Serb, and
6 Dobrosevici is predominantly Serb; right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you. I'm going to mention a book now that I cannot tender
9 yet, written by Vahid Karavelic and Z. Rujanac. Have you heard of this
10 book written by the two of them?
11 A. No, I haven't read it. I wouldn't want to discuss it. I don't
12 know. Quite simply, I don't know.
13 Q. All right. They wrote -- I don't know what they were doing from
14 the 1st of April onwards, but they said that Ahatovici were of strategic
15 importance for the Muslims because the plan was to link Sarajevo with
16 Central Bosnia via Ahatovici and Visoko. Yes or no?
17 A. I wouldn't want to talk about that. I haven't read the book.
18 And Ahatovici, geographically speaking, is on this corridor towards
20 Q. Thank you. Did you see that in the summer of 1991, Hasan Cengic
21 often came to Ahatovici, a well-known person from the SDA, one of their
22 top people; then Bakir Alispahic was born in Ahatovici, and who was a
23 high official in the joint police; then Jusuf Pusina, also a high
24 official of the joint police?
25 A. I'm surprised that you haven't mentioned Alija Izetbegovic as
1 well, that you didn't say that he came there too.
2 Q. Delimustafic did come there. What about these three?
3 A. Your Honours, I said that I was not a member of the Crisis Staff;
4 that is to say, that people were not coming there for parties. If people
5 came, they came to see people who were on the Crisis Staff. So I cannot
6 give comments regarding all of this that I did not know about.
7 Q. Thank you. What about the village guards? Did they function
8 within your organisation and -- the organisation of your
9 Territorial Defence, rather, all the way up until the 29th of May, 1992?
10 A. Yes. The night patrols, the night guards, yes.
11 Q. Was fierce fighting underway in Vogosca, Ilidza, Rajlovac --
12 between Rajlovac and Sokolje, and so on, for 50 days, everywhere but in
13 your village?
14 A. Well, you know that very well, you know that scenario. You did
15 not have enough strength to do all of it at once. You took one
16 village -- village by village, Rakovica -- sorry, not Sokolje but Svrake.
17 Right. Now, we stayed on like this water in this glass. We were cut off
18 from Sarajevo, and then from Visoko, and we were like this [indicating].
19 Q. Thank you. I'm not asking why. I'm just saying whether it's
20 true that there was no fighting in your village. Do you remember that
21 Dragomir Cabulja and Rado Kukalovic [phoen], Serbs, were initiators of
22 many meetings between Serbs and Muslims in your local commune from March
23 until the end of May 1992, and that the last meeting of this kind was
24 held at the end of May, 1992?
25 A. If I were president of the Crisis Staff, I would have known about
1 that. This way, I don't know.
2 Q. This was a meeting of citizens, sir. Did you attend it?
3 A. No, no, I claim that with full responsibility.
4 Q. Now I'm going to tell you. This meeting was held, and we're
5 going to get the names of the attendees, but Hasan Mujkic came to the
6 meeting, though at a later stage, with two escorts. They were all
7 wearing camouflage uniforms. They had automatic weapons. And he simply
8 interrupted the meeting, and he asked that joint check-points be
9 established. And Stojan Dzino accepted that on the condition that these
10 Muslims are from Bojnik not Ahatovici, those who would stand guard by
11 Bojnik. Do you know about that?
12 A. Your Honours, can you free me of all of this? I mean, really, I
13 am sorry, I am sorry, but, you know, the gentleman is turning this into a
14 party, and this is a court of law.
15 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, I told you to put your -- to make your
16 question simple and direct. You are making -- instead of putting
17 questions, you are just making statements, very lengthy and compound
18 statements, which lead us nowhere.
19 Mr. Mujkic, as an accused for serious charges, the accused is
20 entitled to ask questions.
21 Mr. Gaynor, I remember you rose.
22 MR. GAYNOR: Yes.
23 Well, I think the point has been largely covered by Your Honour,
24 except for the observation that the witness has already given evidence
25 that he was not at the meeting, and then the accused went on to recount a
1 whole lot of things that purportedly happened at the meeting. So it's --
2 JUDGE KWON: Correct, Mr. Gaynor. Thank you.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We demonstrated that the gentleman
4 was a member of the Crisis Staff and that he confirmed that himself when
5 testifying before this Tribunal.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. But, Mr. Mujkic, you say that your civilians, 512 civilians, were
8 exchanged and went to the city of Sarajevo. What did the Serbs get in
9 return for them?
10 A. Your Honours, in that period I was in the forest with Gacanovic,
11 Huso, who was wounded. I had no idea whatsoever. We did not have a
12 radio, we had no idea what was going on. We were just trying to stay
13 alive. Now, what the Serbs got in return, I have no idea.
14 Q. Mr. Mujkic, they didn't get anything, but they let your civilians
15 enter Sarajevo. And you call that an exchange of civilians. Can you
16 please tell us any civilians that we got in exchange for those 220
17 civilians? I don't know of any exchange where you let your civilians
18 enter --
19 JUDGE KWON: This is your statement, or, rather, an argument with
20 the witness. The witness said he didn't know whether there was an
21 exchange or not.
22 How much longer do you have for this witness?
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellency, he says "exchange" in
24 his statement. On several occasions, he says that these civilians were
25 exchanged. I am not agreeing with the formulation that this was an
1 exchange of civilians. There was no exchange. These were civilians just
2 allowed to enter Sarajevo. Mr. Mujkic just says that he doesn't know
3 that there was an exchange. He just said that they entered Sarajevo.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, among those 512 civilians,
5 there was my wife, my mother. They told me that they were exchanged.
6 Why, an exchange for whom? I really don't know. I cannot answer that.
7 At the time, I was in the forest. I had no idea what was going on.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 Q. You spent two months in the forest?
10 A. And four days.
11 Q. At the time you were armed, there was a group of you. Who was in
12 this group?
13 A. On the 3rd of June, 1992, I found Huso Gacanovic wounded. He was
14 a young man of 22 at the time. And I got him into the forest that
15 evening. We were alone for 11 days, and then on the 12th day I found
16 Asim Novalija, a man who was some 65 or 66 years old at the time.
17 Unfortunately, he died about four years ago. This was a man who was
18 completely off his mind. The whole time, he had been living by himself.
19 There was just -- there was just three of us. There was no group, there
20 were no contacts, no meetings. We just happened to meet, Asim Novalija
21 and I, and Huso Gacanovic and I.
22 Q. You had some clashes with Serbs at that time, armed clashes; is
23 that right?
24 A. That is not true. I never met anyone. I was fleeing from even
25 the idea of meeting anyone, because this young man was wounded. I didn't
1 want to create any trouble. I mean, he was there. What would I do with
2 him if that happened?
3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the last sentence
4 the witness said.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Did you ever fire?
7 A. I did fire a magazine when I was wounded. I wanted to fire at
8 myself in order not to be caught alive, captured alive. However, I
9 didn't manage to take the magazine out. I don't know if I got confused
10 or something, but the second magazine remained full. I did fire when I
11 was wounded.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Mujkic, I'm afraid the interpreters might have
14 not heard your last part of your answer, so I read out what you said. So
15 tell us what is omitted or not.
16 To the question whether:
17 "You had some clashes with Serbs at the time, armed clashes; is
18 that right?"
19 Your answer is recorded as follows:
20 "That is not true. I never met anyone. I was fleeing from even
21 the idea of meeting anyone, because this young man was wounded. I didn't
22 want to create any trouble. I mean, he was there. What would I do with
23 him if that happened?"
24 Did you say anything after that?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that. In response to the
1 question did I fire, I said that I fired when I was wounded. When I saw
2 what happened, what was going on in the direction from where we were
3 being fired at, then I fired back --
4 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- 30 rounds of ammunition.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Well, that was my question. Did you exchange fire with the
8 Serbs; that's all?
9 A. On the 6th of August, when I was wounded, I did not fire a single
10 bullet after the fall of Ahatovici.
11 Q. Thank you. How did you eat those two months, how did you feed
13 A. In the forest where I was, and this is my own forest, I felt very
14 safe there. I knew every single path there. So at night, I knew,
15 without any hesitation, where I was and where I was supposed to go.
16 Above it in some meadows, there was a weekend house settlement. It
17 exists today. All the weekend houses had their front doors broken in to,
18 and the Serbian soldiers who had captured the Bioca settlement spent the
19 night there and then moved forward towards Ahatovici. Sometime -- at
20 someplace, I would find some oil or a kilogram of sugar, a kilogram of
21 flour in odd places. But it was such a very good year, in terms of the
22 harvest, that I don't remember any year having such a rich harvest as it
23 was that year. There was a lot of fruit. So I didn't suffer from
25 Q. What fruit ripens in July, other than cherries?
1 A. Well, there were pears, early pears, there were potatoes. You
2 know all of that very well.
3 Q. And where did you cook that potato? What did you do with the
4 flour? What did you do during those two months?
5 A. I took gas canisters -- cylinders from those weekend houses, so
6 we used that for heating. There was also a furnace. We brought that
7 from one of the weekend houses. We would bake bread in there, cook some
8 beans, and then the next day we would just make something more. It was
9 summer. It was easy.
10 Q. Thank you. And how did you manage with the water supply? What
11 did you do for water?
12 A. There are three natural wells in my forest. There is a pipe
13 still there that I made then. And the well was just 10 metres from the
14 tent where we were staying.
15 Q. Here is a document that they showed you in the Krajisnik case.
16 This was a Prosecution exhibit, P374, and it states that the Green Berets
17 and other Muslims - this is a police report - and other Muslim
18 paramilitary formations attacked a part of Dobrosevici "yesterday," on
19 the 29th of May, and they were pushed back from the school in Dobrosevici
20 and from the Bioca village in the Ilijas municipality, and they were
21 surrounded in Ahatovici, and that the Serbian Army issued an ultimatum.
22 This is 65 ter 2981 -- 65 ter 298, page 1.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If it's not tendered, can we tender
24 this page, the page that we're looking at right now on the screen?
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes, page 8 to 9 will be added - I mean the e-court
1 pages - will be added to the Exhibit D1101.
2 How much longer do you have, Mr. Karadzic, to conclude? Your
3 time is almost up.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I must say that this witness said
5 so many things that I cannot touch upon not even a fifth of it, and
6 really it's a question of time. The question of time is placing these
7 entire proceedings in jeopardy. I'm convinced of it. For this witness,
8 I would need as much as I requested. I am getting one-third to
9 one-quarter of the time that I'm asking for.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE KWON: You'll have an additional 20 minutes to conclude
12 your cross-examination, Mr. Karadzic.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 May I just say, for the transcript and also for your information,
15 we are not getting all the material in time in order to be able to
16 prepare the translations. On the other hand, a large number of general
17 statements of all the witnesses are placing us in the situation that we
18 are asking ourselves what it is that we need to dispute first, because
19 the time that we are given in order to present our case is really
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Mr. Mujkic, can you please look at the second paragraph:
23 "The Green Berets and other Muslim paramilitary formations
24 yesterday attacked, on the 29th ..."
25 And so on. It says that you attacked the villages of
1 Bjelovici [phoen], Mihajlovici, and Bjelugovici?
2 A. Well, I don't know what it says here, but it's a pure lie.
3 Q. Well, this is written in the Roman alphabet, it's not in the
4 Cyrillic. It's a police report. It's not propaganda. It's a police
6 A. A report by whose police?
7 Q. Aha, even that's a problem with this. It's the Serbian police.
8 A. Well, sir, you are very familiar with the language of hate that
9 you, yourself, spoke as well, and these reports are also something that
10 sowed the bone of contention. The HOS and the Green Berets were
11 bothering you, and they were always mentioned whenever there was an
12 alleged attack that took place. However, in all reports, in all
13 exhumations there was nobody from the outside, especially not from the
14 HOS, because they have a Croat first and last name. All of this is pure
15 fabrication. I don't know how else to describe it other than as lies.
16 Q. Thank you. The police is informing their superiors here. This
17 is not something that is meant for the media. All I'm asking you is to
18 pay attention to the following thing here. Does it not state here that
19 an ultimatum was set for the 30th of May, 1992?
20 A. On the 30th of May, the shelling lasted for 24 hours. It began
21 on the 29th of May. Who could have ventured out under the rain of
23 Q. Just one thing. Does it not say here that the Serbian Army
24 issued an ultimatum to these paramilitary formations in the village of
25 Ahatovici to hand themselves in "today" by -- does it not say that or
2 A. All I know is that the public prosecutor and I threw this out. I
3 didn't say that anywhere in my statement. As for your statements, I'm
4 not interested in them.
5 Q. All right. Here's your statement. Can you please look at
6 paragraph 27.
7 JUDGE KWON: Whose statement? The amalgamated statement; yes?
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 Q. Paragraph 27:
10 [In English] "I have been shown page -- or paragraph 5 of a
11 document, 65 ter 1698, which states that Tesanovic sought the approval of
12 the president on 30th May, 1992, in order to commence shelling at 18
13 hours. This is consistent with and must be a reference to the shelling
14 of Ahatovici on 30th May 1992."
15 MR. GAYNOR: Just so the record is clear, the witness has given
16 evidence, when adopting his statement, that that particular paragraph is
17 the paragraph he wants removed from his statement. So I'm not suggesting
18 the accused can't cross-examine on it. I just want to make Your Honours
19 aware it's not in his amalgamated statement as adopted.
20 JUDGE KWON: Thank you for the reminder.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I have 65 ter 1698, please.
22 This is a document that states that there was no shelling before
23 1800 hours on the 30th of May, and we can see from this report that the
24 ultimatum was running out at 1800 hours on the 30th of May.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 1698 in e-court, please.
1 And Mr. Gaynor has now given us new evidence of all the things
2 that you can do with statements. You can tweak it here and tweak it
4 JUDGE KWON: Improper statement.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Can you please look at this. This is an AID document, a document
7 of the Muslim Secret Service, official secret, strictly confidential, on
8 the 18th of October, 1996.
9 JUDGE KWON: By the way, was this not part of an associated
10 exhibit, Mr. Gaynor?
11 MR. GAYNOR: The previous document we were looking at is --
12 JUDGE KWON: No, no, this one, 1698.
13 MR. GAYNOR: I informed the Registrar by e-mail this morning that
14 this is not being tendered by the Prosecution as an associated exhibit,
15 because it was part of the paragraph 27 of the amalgamated statement,
16 which is the paragraph not adopted by the witness. So we're not
17 tendering this particular document as an associated exhibit.
18 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have page 5. This is a
20 supplementary document that speaks about Tesanovic's intercepts, or it's
21 his journal. So can we have page 5.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Tesanovic, at 1745:
24 [In English] "Tesanovic asked the president that mortar fire be
25 opened at 1800 hours."
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So I am offering this along with
2 the previous document, the bulletin of events, to the effect that an
3 ultimatum was set for 1800 hours on the 30th of May, due to the fact that
4 the Muslims' forces carried out an attack on the 29th of May and that
5 Tesanovic here is asking for permission to open fire.
6 Can we have this tendered into evidence?
7 MR. GAYNOR: No objection to the admission of this --
8 JUDGE KWON: You didn't ask a question to the witness about this
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, this is contrary to what the
11 witness is saying. I claim that you attacked on the 29th and that the
12 Serbs responded on the 30th. We see that you dealt with this issue in
13 paragraph 27, and you said that this was consistent with the beginning of
14 shelling. I'm talking about paragraph 27 of your amalgamated statement,
15 and I would like this to be reintroduced into evidence as a Defence
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this does not
18 correspond to the truth. In all my statements, and I said, and I still
19 maintain, that on the Friday, the 29th of May, at 1500 hours, a first
20 tank shell was fired from Rajlovac at Ahatovici, and that heralded a kind
21 of signal for the mortars to start fire. And each mortar had a cluster
22 of houses in their sites. There was not a single place in Ahatovici
23 where shells didn't land. As for this report, somebody wrote it to suit
24 their needs.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. During those 24 hours of shelling, how many people died?
2 A. Thank God, only two. We were lucky, because those were initial
3 fightings in 1992 and the crews serving mortars didn't have much
4 experience. Had it been in 1993, the number of casualties would have
5 been higher.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that we have grounds to
7 admit this, because once he accepted this and --
8 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please pause between
9 questions and answers. Thank you.
10 JUDGE KWON: I think we can safely move on.
11 Mr. Gaynor, did you want to say -- raise something?
12 MR. GAYNOR: Simply to point out that we did, in fact, initially
13 tender this. So if the accused wishes to have this admitted, we don't
14 oppose that, but we'll leave it in the Court's hands.
15 JUDGE KWON: How about -- yes, in order to understand the context
16 of this witness's evidence, I think we can -- we should admit this. How
17 about admitting page 1 and page 5 of this document? This is a document
18 of page -- a document of 41 pages --
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's correct.
20 JUDGE KWON: -- and that first we admit the first page and
21 page 5. We'll give the number.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 THE REGISTRAR: D1106, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE KWON: You have 10 minutes. Nine minutes, actually,
25 Mr. Karadzic.
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Mr. Mujkic, you saw, during your stay in the woods as a fighter,
3 which is basically highly esteemed by the Serbs, you saw that in the
4 village of Gornja Bioca, the Serbs released women and children and even
5 one man to go and milk the cows and deal with the horses and things like
6 that; is that correct?
7 A. Yes. That was on the 31st of May or on the 1st of June. I don't
8 know the date at the moment. I saw this man who was a relative of mine.
9 I say "was" because he was exhumed from a mass grave in Ilijas
10 municipality. But that was it. Nobody else was allowed to leave the
11 school, and the rest were taken to Planjo's house, where I was taken on
12 the 2nd of September.
13 Q. Let's stay with the civilians. The civilians were inside the
14 school, and you didn't see them being guarded by soldiers; is that
16 A. Your Honours, the school -- the elementary school is in
17 Donja Bioca. As for Gornja Bioca, it's a village which is close to our
18 village. It's on the border between Ilijas and Novi Grad municipalities.
19 There was no way for me to go to the school, because I would have to go
20 through open spaces. I only went to Gornja Bioca, and I saw those people
21 there. I saw a woman milking a cow, and I saw a man taking a horse out.
22 After that, I went back to Ahatovici, and I don't know who actually was
23 in the school in Bioca. I think I didn't mention that anywhere.
24 Q. This is what you said in the Krajisnik case on 3rd of November,
25 page 7946, when you said that women freely went out to milk the cows and
1 that there was a man who went out to release a horse.
2 Mr. Mujkic, my proposition is that the civilians were provided
3 shelter in Gornja Bioca, they were not detained, and then were released
4 on the 13th of June, and they went to Sarajevo. Do you have any proof to
5 the contrary?
6 A. As for the school in Bioca, I didn't mention it, I don't want to
7 talk about it because I don't know anything about it. As for this
8 exchange near the petrol station in which my mother and my wife were
9 involved, I didn't know what was happening at the time. I only heard
10 about it later. That's it.
11 Q. In Bratunac -- in Ahatovici, you had fighters from Bratunac as
12 well; is that correct?
13 A. Those were not fighters. Those were exchanged prisoners from
14 Pale, and they came to Visoko. They had families in Sarajevo, and on
15 their way, they reached Ahatovici. However, they couldn't proceed across
16 the River Bosna. There were six of them all together from Bratunac.
17 This is what I said, and this is the truth. And you like to call them
18 the Green Berets and so on and so forth.
19 Q. But you said that there were 12 of them, or even that 12 people
20 from Bratunac were killed.
21 Now, look at your statement or your evidence in the Krajisnik
22 case of the 3rd of November, 2004, page 7990.
23 Were you afraid for those people who were captured by the Serbian
24 Army for the second time, and that you were afraid that something bad
25 would happen to them, contrary to the Geneva Conventions?
1 A. Well, you know that the Geneva Conventions provided protection
2 for a lot of people.
3 Q. Is this what you said, that you feared for their lives because
4 they were captured for the second time?
5 A. I didn't say that. I just feared for my family. They were
6 afraid because they were captured for the second time. I had no reason
7 to be afraid, my dear sir. I was only afraid for my family.
8 Q. Thank you. Do you know that the fact that we captured the
9 exchanged Muslim fighters several times was the reason for me to send
10 them to third countries instead of recapturing them over and over again?
11 A. If I didn't know you as a blood-thirsty tiger from TV, I would
12 just think now that you'd like to portray yourself as a lamb.
13 Q. I'm going to disregard this remark.
14 A. You don't like to hear the truth, but you know that very well.
15 Q. What was your personal experience with me? Did you know me, did
16 we meet?
17 A. No, but I see the killer of my son in you. All the bloodshed in
18 Bosnia-Herzegovina was the result of your three objectives: Number 1, to
19 preserve the rump Yugoslavia; the second objective, to create a Greater
20 Serbia; and, thirdly, to create a Serbian republic. So everything was to
21 accommodate Serbs alone, and all the blood was shed for the sake of all
22 those objectives of yours.
23 Q. Mr. Mujkic, do you realise that the crisis was generated because
24 of an attempt to have Bosnia-Herzegovina secede, contrary to the will of
25 the Serbian people?
1 A. I was listening about this on television, but you know that I was
2 not with Izetbegovic, which would allow me to know certain things that
3 you are imputing now.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please now have 1D3339.
5 This is a proclamation to the Muslim people of the 12th of June, 1992.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. So you know nothing about Mr. Izetbegovic, and you know
8 everything about myself?
9 A. Well, our people say, Do not speak ill of the dead.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, I apologise for this
11 not being translated, because we are really receiving lots of material at
12 the 11th hour. We received some material for the witness who's going to
13 be examined on Monday.
14 So we have here the news agency "SRNA," the 12th of June. Can we
15 look at page 3 of this document.
16 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, it's time to come to your last
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. This is the penultimate question: Sir, can you look at this? It
20 is, admittedly, in Cyrillic, but I'm addressing the Muslim population by
21 saying that:
22 "In our common fatherland, a brutal war is being waged which has
23 claimed thousands of lives and destroyed a lot of material assets. There
24 are very few peoples in the world who depended on one another so much.
25 Our history is the same. We have one-and-the-same country that we cannot
1 leave. We have no other place to go. Even if we wanted to do that,
2 nobody would want us, either you or us. We speak the same language, and
3 we may call it whatever we want, but that must not be the reason for us
4 to fight. We pray to God in different ways, that is true, but that also
5 mustn't be a reason for conflict."
6 A. Sir, Your Honours, may I ask him a question?
7 Q. No, no, sir, you cannot.
8 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, what is your question?
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. My penultimate question is: Mr. Mujkic, do you know that we did
11 our best to avoid the war, except to accept a single Bosnia dominated by
12 the Muslims?
13 A. I don't know about that, but I watched you when you said in the
14 Assembly of BH that if war broke out in our territory, the Muslim people
15 would become exterminated. I thought that you wanted to cite that as one
16 of your smart and wise instructions to the Muslims.
17 Q. That was an antiwar speech, and I begged them not to enter the
19 My last question: You saw the mosque in Ahatovici, and it was
20 demolished? You visited the site, and you saw all the places -- all the
21 pieces strewn around?
22 A. Unfortunately, I was the first to reach the site of the
23 demolished mosque. That was on the fourth or fifth day of the shelling.
24 I had been in the wood with this man. That was such a strong detonation,
25 and I said the mosque was blown out. When we arrived there, I saw that
1 the minaret was gone. And when the darkness fell, I went down there,
2 and, unfortunately, that is the truth, sir --
3 Q. You said that there were pieces everywhere around, the rubble.
4 Where were they?
5 A. One hundred metres from the mosque, there was a beam embedded in
6 the ground. And as for roof tiles and bricks, were all around that no
7 one could go nearer than 50 metres. Since even the foundations were
8 deformed, you can only imagine how powerful that detonation was.
9 Q. Mr. Mujkic, you exactly described an inside explosion. No one
10 would be foolish enough to spend so much ammunition and explosive to blow
11 up a mosque. This is what happens when you store explosives inside.
12 Is this how it exploded? You were storing explosive devices
14 A. A minute ago, I said that the truth is an equation with lots of
15 unknown to you.
16 Q. Just tell me that. We can easily prove that.
17 A. No, no, that's not true. There was no soldiers -- there were no
18 soldiers in the mosque. You cannot imagine that. Only you can claim
19 such a thing.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have to say that I regret the
21 fact that I didn't have time to question this witness completely. There
22 are lots of statements --
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if necessary, I'm
24 willing to stay for another month, and I'm going to reiterate everything
25 that I said today, because this is my life's story.
1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Mujkic.
2 Mr. Gaynor, if you can finish in 10 or 15 minutes, your redirect,
3 then we can go on.
4 MR. GAYNOR: Certainly, Mr. President.
5 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
6 MR. GAYNOR: Okay.
7 Re-examination by Mr. Gaynor:
8 Q. First of all, I would like to clarify one thing with you,
9 Mr. Witness, and it concerns the soldiers who you saw at the village of
10 Gornja Bioca.
11 You gave evidence earlier today that you could hear, from their
12 accent, that they were from Serbia; is that right?
13 A. I said that they were Serb soldiers. I did not say that they
14 were from Serbia. It was night-time. I was sent to get help from
15 Visoko. That is the information that we received. I thought it was then
16 because I heard commotion. But at any rate, I was in the bushes, hiding,
17 and he was passing by me. According to the accent, I realised that it
18 wasn't our people, and then I was panic-stricken. I didn't go any
19 further. I waited for daybreak. Just before dawn, I arrived in
20 Donja Bioca. I saw what I saw.
21 As for the weekend cottages, in every one of them you could hear
22 the clamour of people. It was actually -- it was soldiers that had taken
23 Bioca. They spent the night there, and then they went further on in the
25 Q. And your attention was drawn to a reference you made in your
1 evidence in the Krajisnik case, where you referred to the units of the
2 Ilijas municipality. Do you remember that?
3 A. Yes, yes. Yes, these Serb soldiers were there from the
4 municipality of Ilijas, but that is to the north, as far as we are
5 concerned, and the prison was in Ahatovici. I showed you this glass. We
6 were like this water in this glass.
7 Q. So is it your evidence that there were soldiers from the -- Serb
8 soldiers from the municipality of Ilijas and Serb soldiers from
9 elsewhere? Is that right?
10 A. Sir, I am telling you now that it was night-time, and I realised,
11 by the way they pronounced the letter H and the way they spoke in
12 general, what their accent was, I realised that they were Serb soldiers.
13 And I couldn't just walk out there and say, Where are you from? I would
14 have been shot. But, at any rate, it was forces that arrived from
16 Q. I want to ask you one or two questions about your -- about a
17 visit you went to -- to Planjo's house with an investigator you think was
18 from Australia. You said this at page 22 of today's transcript. And the
19 Presiding Judge asked you a bit more about when that was. You said you
20 thought it might be in 2004, it was summertime, it was very hot. Do you
21 remember that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, did you, with that investigator, visit places other than
24 Planjo's house on that occasion?
25 A. We went to Sokolje, where this massacre was committed. This
1 bus -- these people from Ahatovici were killed.
2 MR. GAYNOR: Can I call up 65 ter number 22189.
3 Q. Now, Mr. Mujkic, this is only in English, but I can read part of
4 it to you. Actually, no, we see now there is a translation. If we can
5 keep the translation on the left.
6 In any event, it says:
7 "On 4th of July, 2004, together with Trial Attorney
8 Magde Karagiannakis and Interpreter Darko Bartula, I spoke with ..."
9 And it gives your name, Ramiz Mujkic. It then says:
10 "Mujkic then took us to various locations as indicated below.
11 Digital photographs were taken at each of these locations by myself.
12 Mujkic explained what these places were."
13 Now, if we can turn to, please, page 14 of this document, and
14 zoom in at the photograph at the top of page 14, please.
15 Are you able to see that photograph at the top there?
16 A. If you're asking me, yes, I do see it.
17 Q. I am. Can you tell us who --
18 A. Yes, yes.
19 Q. Do you recognise yourself in that photograph?
20 A. Yes, it's me on the photograph up here.
21 MR. GAYNOR: Can we just go to the final page of that document,
22 please. And if we could look at the photograph on the second half of the
23 page and rotate it 90 degrees, Mr. Registrar, please. Zoom in on that
24 photograph, please.
25 Q. What is that building, Mr. Mujkic?
1 A. This building is Planjo's house, where I spent two months and
2 five days along with the other prisoners.
3 Q. Did you visit that location with the Australian investigator?
4 A. Yes, yes. I think that he took the picture.
5 Q. And you described to that investigator some of the things that
6 took place in that house; is that right?
7 A. Yes. I wish to God I had never seen this, but I did.
8 MR. GAYNOR: I'd like to tender that, please, Mr. President.
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes, that will be admitted.
10 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P2343, Your Honours.
11 MR. GAYNOR: The final point, if we could call up a map, please.
12 It's P2327.
13 Q. What's coming up now, and Mr. Mujkic, it's an exhibit which has
14 been admitted, and it is, I believe, a map that you prepared prior to
15 your testimony in the Krajisnik case. I should say that you placed
16 stickers on this map prior to your testimony in that case. I'd just like
17 you to confirm that.
18 If we can move to the second page of this. If we can just focus
19 in on where all the red stickers are towards the second -- the lower part
20 of the map.
21 In the legend you've provided with this map, Mr. Mujkic, you say
22 that number 10 marks the house of Momcilo Krajisnik. Could you confirm
24 A. Yes, sir.
25 Q. Now, was Mirko Krajisnik from this area or was he from a
1 different area?
2 A. They had a very big house and also an old house where their
3 parents were. I think that Mirko and Momcilo built this enormous house
5 Q. The stickers marked 3, 4, and 5 are in and around the village of
6 Ahatovici; is that right?
7 A. Yes, yes. This is a hamlet of Ahatovici.
8 Q. About how far was the Krajisnik house from the hamlet of
10 A. As the crow flies, it wasn't more than two or three kilometres.
11 However, since the terrain is hilly, and you see the zigzag of all the
12 roads, it was six kilometres from Ahatovici to Rajlovac. And as for
13 Zabrdje, if you take into account that Rajlovac is up there, then it's
14 about six or seven kilometres if you take the road. As the crow flies,
15 two or three kilometres.
16 Q. How many years had you known Mirko Krajisnik before 1992?
17 A. Well, let me tell you. All of this is a single area. I mean,
18 now, if you were to pin-point the centre, it's a circle with a diametre
19 of three kilometres, or six if you were to put the centre right in the
20 middle of this picture. All of these people knew each other. We would
21 see each other on buses and wherever in the 1970s 1980s, and the last
22 time we sat next to each other I sat between the father, and Momcilo and
23 father -- and Mirko was on the other side of the father sometime in 1991,
24 or the beginning of May, at the funeral of a relative of theirs.
25 Q. Approximately how long have you known Mirko Krajisnik?
1 A. I've known Mirko Krajisnik since I was 44 -- since I was 20,
2 actually. It not that we had any transactions or any business to
3 conduct, but it was sort of, Hello, neighbour, Hello, and that was it.
4 Q. Now, you've given evidence to the Trial Chamber that you saw
5 Mirko Krajisnik in Rajlovac Barracks on the 7th of August, 1992. Do you
6 recall that?
7 A. You said "Ahatovici"? Yes.
8 Q. No. My question was - I should have said it more slowly - you've
9 given evidence to the Trial Chamber that you saw Mirko Krajisnik in the
10 Rajlovac Barracks on the 7th of August, 1992?
11 A. Yes, Your Honours, that's what I said, and I stand by that.
12 Q. How much time did you have to observe him on that occasion?
13 A. A minute was like a year for me then, because my leg was
14 fractured, my jaw was broken. Nobody even looked at my wounds. But they
15 stayed for not longer than five minutes, because I couldn't talk. Then
16 Nikola Poplasen said to Vlasto Apostolovski, Give him some pen and paper,
17 he is literate. I can see that, judging by his face. Let him write all
18 of this up nicely, and then you're going to submit it to me. And then
19 they walked out of the room.
20 Q. Is there any doubt in your mind that that was Mirko Krajisnik on
21 that morning, the 7th of August, 1992?
22 A. No doubt whatsoever. That is the truth and nothing but the
24 MR. GAYNOR: No further questions, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Mujkic. That concludes your
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I, just one question that is
3 not based on the redirect? Actually, the bus was never mentioned during
4 the cross-examination, whereas the learned Mr. Gaynor did bring it up
5 during his redirect. I did not deal with the bus. That was just that
6 one question.
7 JUDGE KWON: No, it's not a question. He was able -- the
8 proofing was raised during the cross-examination, so it is legitimate and
9 the Prosecution is entitled to deal with that, the proofing issue, and
10 the on-site visit.
11 That concludes your evidence, Mr. Mujkic. I apologise again for
12 being interposed by a witness, and I appreciate your understanding very
13 much. On behalf of the Tribunal and the Chamber, I would like to thank
14 you for your coming to The Hague to give it. Now you are free to go.
15 Please have a safe journey back home.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. And I will
17 always respond to any call from this Tribunal because I think that the
18 truth should be known. Thank you.
19 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
20 [The witness withdrew]
21 JUDGE KWON: Just taking this opportunity, there is one ruling to
22 give at this moment. It's related to the Prosecution's submission
23 concerning the Trial Chamber's decision on Prosecution's submission and
24 request in relation to outstanding exhibit issues, filed on 28th of
25 January this year.
1 The Chamber considers that it is appropriate to admit
2 Exhibit P51, under seal, and its public version after the original
3 attestation documentation is submitted to the Chamber. In this respect,
4 the Chamber is not deciding on the submission until the Prosecution
5 submits the original documentation, which should happen as soon as
7 So we'll break for about half an hour and resume at quarter past.
8 --- Recess taken at 5.45 p.m.
9 [The witness entered court]
10 --- On resuming at 6.18 p.m.
11 JUDGE KWON: Good evening, Mr. Witness.
12 If you could take the solemn declaration.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good evening.
14 I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,
15 and nothing but the truth.
16 WITNESS: KDZ020
17 [Witness answered through interpreter]
18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
19 Please make yourself comfortable.
20 Good evening, Ms. Edgerton.
21 MS. EDGERTON: Good evening, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE KWON: It's now your witness.
23 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
24 Examination by Ms. Edgerton:
25 Q. Mr. Witness, perhaps you could confirm a few things to us.
1 You've given statements and information to the Office of the
2 Prosecutor here at this Tribunal in 1998, 2005, and 2007; correct?
3 A. Yes, that's correct.
4 Q. And you've testified here as well on two previous occasions, once
5 in the trial of Momcilo Krajisnik in 2005 and very recently, in 2010, in
6 the trial of Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin; also correct?
7 A. Yes, that's correct.
8 Q. Now, earlier this month, did you have read to you, in your own
9 language, a further statement amalgamating evidence -- pardon me,
10 amalgamating elements of the evidence you've previously given?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. If I asked you the same questions today that gave rise to that --
13 the evidence contained in that amalgamated statement, would you have the
14 same answers?
15 A. Exactly the same, exactly the same.
16 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, that amalgamated statement is 65 ter
17 number 90226. Could that be a Prosecution exhibit, please, under seal?
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P2344, under seal, Your Honours.
20 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
21 I'll now read a summary of this witness's evidence, his written
23 This witness provides background to the geographic, economic,
24 military, political, and ethnic make-up of the municipality of Vogosca,
25 and identifies significant personalities involved in a number of those
1 areas. He gives evidence about his relationship -- pardon me. He gives
2 evidence about his relationship and conversations with those
3 personalities. He explains how these areas were all affected in the
4 period leading up to the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina. He talks the
5 formation of a Bosnian Serb crisis staff in Vogosca as early as September
6 1991, led by Jovan Tintor.
7 The witness is also familiar with and explains the structure and
8 function of the offices and personnel of the Ministry of Interior of
9 Bosnia and Herzegovina, particularly in Vogosca municipality. He
10 discusses SDS efforts to influence staff appointments in the local police
11 forces, particularly in the late summer and early fall of 1991. He
12 comments on and authenticates a number of intercepted telephone
13 conversations on those and other issues and incidents.
14 The witness speaks about the distribution of weapons from
15 Semizovac Barracks to Serbs in Vogosca municipality. In January 1992, he
16 observed military trucks which had come from the barracks towing cannons
17 in the direction of Paljevo. He was told these were for the Serb
18 Territorial Defence.
19 A local SDS leader, Rajko Koprivica, said, Why do you care? This
20 is Serb business, it's none of your business, because you will disappear
22 The witness discusses the breakdown of local municipal
23 authorities with the SDS walk-out from the Municipal Assembly.
24 On more than one occasion, he was told by local SDS leaders that
25 Muslims were going to disappear, that they would be destroyed if they
1 don't leave voluntarily.
2 The witness talks in detail about the ethnic separation of the
3 police forces in Vogosca.
4 The witness gives evidence about the deteriorating safety and
5 security situation in the municipality and the rise in incidents of
6 ethnically-based violence, including an armed attack on the Vogosca
7 Police Station carried out by Bosnian Serb forces.
8 Finally, he relates his information about the situation in
9 Vogosca during the conflict, which he received from local Muslims who had
10 been exchanged or otherwise left Vogosca. From these contacts, he
11 learned of the detention and mistreatment of the Muslim population at
12 three facilities referred to as Kontiki, the bunker, and Planjo's house.
13 And that's the summary of the written evidence.
14 Q. Now, Mr. Witness, I have only a few brief questions for you, and
15 they're actually by way of clarification of the chronology of certain
16 events in your written evidence that's just been filed. And in that
17 regard, I'll start by referring you to paragraph 59 of your written
18 evidence, where you said that in March 1992, SDS delegates walked out of
19 a Municipal Assembly session, saying that they were going to organise a
20 Serb municipality of Vogosca. And then at paragraph 71, you said that
21 the last session of the Vogosca Municipal Assembly took place in early
22 April 1992.
23 So my question here is: By this, can we take that the
24 Municipal Assembly continued to meet following the SDS walk-out?
25 A. Yes, your assumption is correct. The Municipal Assembly had 51
1 delegates or representatives. Eighteen deputies were from the SDA, 15
2 from the SDS, and 18 were the opposition forces. As the SDS walked out,
3 the Assembly continued to function normally, since there were 18 deputies
4 from the SDA and 18 deputies from the opposition. So there was a
5 two-third majority, and even more than that, and it could, therefore,
6 reach decisions properly. After the walk-out of the SDS delegates and
7 after the Serb municipality in Vogosca was established, that's what
9 Q. Now, just to follow on with this line of questioning, in terms of
10 the chronology of events: At paragraph 64 of your written evidence, you
11 referred to a dispatch from Momcilo Mandic, dated 31 March 1992.
12 MS. EDGERTON: And for the record, that's P01116.
13 Q. And perhaps you could just clarify: Did the withdrawal from the
14 Joint Assembly happen before or after the date of this document?
15 A. I think -- or, rather, it's not that I think; I know. It
16 happened the week when the dispatch from Momcilo Mandic arrived. The
17 week after the dispatch arrived, actually.
18 Q. And in your statement, at paragraph 68 to 69, you referred to the
19 attack on the police station by Bosnian Serb forces. How long --
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you recall whether that happened before or after the date of
22 this document, before or after March 31st, 1992?
23 A. Yes, I certainly remember that. I'll never forget that day.
24 That was after Momcilo Mandic's dispatch. This attack took place after
25 Momcilo Mandic's dispatch.
1 Q. Were the police forces in Vogosca separated at the time of this
3 A. After the dispatch arrived from Momcilo Mandic, assistant
4 minister, which explicitly ordered that a Serb MUP be established, that
5 the existing Muslim -- or, rather, that the Muslims and Croats who were
6 there be subordinated to the Serb MUP, we held a meeting at the station.
7 And at that meeting, we reached a few important decisions. The most
8 important one was that until further notice, we would remain in the
9 station and work together, as much as we could, in order to prevent
10 bloodshed, but we should stay at the station. In fact, the station had
11 not been divided, but, de jure, it was actually divided, because Serbs
12 listened to Serbs, Croats listened to Croats, and Muslims to Muslims.
13 Q. At the time of this attack, had the police forces in Vogosca
14 physically separated? Had the forces split into different buildings, for
16 A. No, no, they were not physically split. We worked in the same
17 building, in the same offices. When anything happened, any kind of
18 incident, we went out together, and we fought against crime together.
19 Serbs, Bosniaks, Muslims, Croats, all of us were together at the police
20 station, and also during the attack against the police station that was
21 organised by Boro Radic.
22 Q. What happened after the attack? Did the police forces continue
23 to occupy the same building?
24 A. Yes. Even after the attack, when we returned to the station, it
25 was both Serbs and Bosniaks who returned. We continued to work together
1 at the station.
2 Q. Until what time?
3 A. Approximately for another two or three weeks, we worked together,
4 and then there was this physical separation.
5 Q. And at what point -- thank you.
6 Now, on the subject of the attack on the police station -- and,
7 Your Honour, for this question, could we please go into private session?
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
9 [Private session]
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: We're now in open session, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
5 I take it you are minded to tender the associated exhibits.
6 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, Your Honour.
7 There are, obviously, a couple on this list that have been
8 previously tendered, but P01116, being one of them, and P00045 being the
9 other one. I'm minded to tender the rest, if I may, Your Honour, noting,
10 of course, that a large number of them are intercepts, and I would ask
11 that they be marked for identification.
12 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President.
13 We have an objection to that with respect to intercepts.
14 And if you look at the amalgamated statement and compare them to
15 what's being offered, you see that there's very little information
16 offered about the intercept in the amalgamated statement, apart from the
17 fact that he recognises the voices, in some cases, or in some cases he
18 provides very little information; that they're talking about Sarajevo or
19 they're talking about an individual. And we don't think that that small
20 information is sufficient enough to warrant the admission of the
21 intercept for all purposes. It's useful to help the Prosecution show the
22 reliability of the intercept. Later, when they bring a witness, it may
23 be that you will want to admit that. But on the basis of someone simply
24 saying that I recognise those voices, I don't think the content of the
25 intercept should be received by the Chamber.
1 Also, four of these intercepts involve Mr. Mandic, and we think
2 it's very unfair for the Prosecution to not have offered those intercepts
3 during his testimony, and now, when there's no more ability for
4 confrontation, to admit them at this stage. So we object to those on
5 separate grounds, in addition to the fact that the witness doesn't really
6 provide any information about them.
7 Thank you.
8 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Edgerton.
9 MS. EDGERTON: Well, with respect to the first objection,
10 Your Honour, I did not ask for the intercepts to be admitted for all
11 purposes. I asked them to be marked for further identification. And,
12 frankly, the nature of the information that the witness offered with
13 respect to each of those intercepts, which, at a minimum, was the
14 recognition of the voices on the basis of his personal experience with
15 the interlocutors, is indeed a factor that would warrant their admission
16 for -- their admission to be further authenticated at a later time.
17 With respect to the second ground, since Mr. Tieger is behind me
18 and he dealt with the evidence of Mr. Mandic, perhaps he would like to
19 rise on that point.
20 MR. TIEGER: Just as a matter of practicality, Your Honour, the
21 Court is well aware of the time that was taken with Mr. Mandic's
22 examination. It is a practical impossibility to confront witnesses of
23 that nature with each and every document that they're associated with,
24 that they produced, or with each and every intercept. In fact, a great
25 deal of information was presented through Mr. Mandic. I would suggest we
1 would have been here for a remarkably inefficient length of time if the
2 issue of confrontation was expanded to those lengths, so I don't think
3 that's -- the Court, in a case of this magnitude, hears evidence from
4 many sources at many times and comes to a decision based on the totality
5 of the evidence, and is fully capable of placing that evidence in
7 JUDGE KWON: Very well. For myself, I didn't bring the note --
8 the list with my note to the courtroom, so I'm not in the position to
9 deal with it. We'll give our ruling tomorrow -- Monday morning.
10 In the meantime, then, are you prepared to start, Mr. Karadzic?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, first of all, we were
12 notified yesterday that this witness would testify on the 28th. The
13 other thing is that Madam Edgerton questioned the witness for a shorter
14 period of time than was announced, so we're not really prepared to begin
15 right now.
16 So in view of all of this and in view of my state of exhaustion
17 because of my cross-examination that went on earlier, I think that the
18 best course of action would be for us to begin on Monday.
19 The notification is D467 from yesterday.
20 JUDGE KWON: Do you have any observation, Ms. Edgerton?
21 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, Dr. Karadzic may not have
22 understood, but that notification was with respect to our list of
23 witnesses for the coming week and merely indicated that we expected this
24 witness's testimony would carry over until Monday. He has always been
25 notified for this week, so I'm quite certain that Dr. Karadzic
2 And with respect to the period of time that was announced, I only
3 asked for half an hour in the first place, Your Honour, and I've been 15
4 minutes, so I don't think that that's a very long time.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE KWON: It's a matter of 20 minutes. We'll rise for today.
7 Mr. Witness, the hearing will be adjourned for this week, and
8 we'll resume on Monday next week at 9.00. Please have a nice weekend.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, and you too.
10 [The witness stands down]
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.41 p.m.,
12 to be reconvened on Monday, the 28th day of
13 February, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.