1 Monday, 28 February 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
5 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everyone.
6 Yes, good morning, Mr. Robinson.
7 MR. ROBINSON: Good morning, Mr. President, members of the
8 Trial Chamber.
9 I'm sorry to raise this issue somewhat tardily, but we would like
10 to ask the Trial Chamber to inquire of this witness whether the
11 protective measures which were granted to him in 2005 in the Krajisnik
12 case are still, in his view, necessary.
13 In going back to the Krajisnik transcript, we see that the reason
14 for the protective measures was the climate in Bosnia and Herzegovina at
15 the time. And since six years have passed and it seems like the climate
16 has improved, we're wondering whether this witness might feel that the
17 protective measures are no longer necessary, particularly since he,
18 himself, was not a victim of any of the crimes and appears to be living
19 in Sarajevo. So we would ask that the Chamber consider to put to the
20 witness a question as to whether or not he believes the protective
21 measures are still necessary, and if so, why.
22 Thank you.
23 JUDGE KWON: Why could it not have been raised earlier,
24 Mr. Robinson?
25 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President.
1 We should have raised it earlier. Unfortunately, I, myself, have
2 been dealing with many disclosure batches which have been arriving in the
3 last week. We probably received thousands more documents, and I simply
4 overlooked this particular issue during my preparation last week. And I
5 apologise for that.
6 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Edgerton, do you have any observation to that?
7 MS. EDGERTON: Simply, Your Honour, that before the witness -- or
8 at the time the witness was contacted about his availability to testify,
9 these issues were raised with him. If he had not felt they were
10 necessary any longer, I'm sure he would have indicated that. In fact, he
11 did the opposite. He requested the very same measures that he had in the
12 earlier proceedings.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE MORRISON: Mr. Robinson, can I ask, in the light of
15 Ms. Edgerton's reply, whether or not it's necessary? If he's requested
16 the same measures, aren't we to assume that he entertains the same fears?
17 MR. ROBINSON: I don't know, actually. I haven't received any
18 document that that inquiry was made of him recently and that he requests
19 the same measures. Maybe that's the standard procedure that is pursued
20 by the Victims and Witnesses Section, although I question whether they
21 would do that given there were binding measures in force. But the fact
22 that has been done and the witness has already told the Prosecution that
23 he affirmatively wishes the protective measures to continue, it's still
24 our position that an inquiry from the Chamber is preferable. But in
25 light of your earlier decisions, I could understand where you wouldn't
1 make further inquiry.
2 JUDGE BAIRD: Mr. Robinson, the objection was based exclusively
3 on the weather?
4 MR. ROBINSON: Pardon?
5 JUDGE BAIRD: His requests were based on the weather?
6 MR. ROBINSON: His request at the time in 2005, as far as can be
7 seen from the Krajisnik transcript, was based on the climate --
8 JUDGE BAIRD: The climate conditions?
9 MR. ROBINSON: Security climate, meaning not the weather climate,
10 meaning the --
11 JUDGE BAIRD: The security. I see.
12 MR. ROBINSON: Yes.
13 JUDGE BAIRD: I wondered.
14 MR. ROBINSON: "Climate" used in that sense.
15 JUDGE BAIRD: Thank you very much indeed. Thank you.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 MR. TIEGER: Mr. President, excuse me. The microphone is on.
18 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour.
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
20 MS. EDGERTON: Just we may have forgotten. He also -- this
21 witness also came to testify last year, in other proceedings before this
22 Tribunal, with the same protective measures. In 2010, he was here.
23 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. We shall inquire of him.
24 Yes, Mr. Tieger.
25 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
1 On a somewhat related note relating to timing of submissions, I
2 raised with Mr. Robinson Friday my concerns about the fact that his
3 objections to the offering of intercepts related to Mr. Mandic had not
4 been brought to our attention earlier, and mentioned to him that had it
5 been done so, I would have had additional issues to raise in response,
6 other than the obvious one that was raised on the spot at the time. If I
7 may, if I can just say quickly, then, some of those concerns I would have
9 Number 1, I would have pointed out there is no such rule in the
10 institution to support his proposition that it had to be offered to
11 Mr. Mandic.
12 Number 2, it's contrary to the actual practice in the
13 institution, as exemplified, among other things, by the fact that two of
14 these intercepts were admitted in Krajisnik, but were not offered through
15 Mr. Mandic.
16 Number 3, it's contrary to the practice in this very case, where
17 many, many documents are admitted that are not presented to the witnesses
18 who authored them or participated in conversations or meetings.
19 Number 4, it's contrary to the very practice with respect to this
20 witness, Mr. Mandic, because, as the Court will recall, we admitted,
21 through Mr. Mandic, a list of intercepted conversations that he listened
22 to and verified that he was a participant and recognised his voice and
23 the voices of others, in express anticipation of tendering for admission
24 the intercepts later after the operators had arrived.
25 So for all those reasons and others, both expressed previously
1 and that could be amplified, if necessary, we consider that objection to
2 be unfounded, and those documents should be MFI'd in accordance with the
3 ongoing practice.
4 Thank you, Mr. President.
5 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
6 With respect to the admission of associated exhibits, we'll come
7 back to that issue after the first break.
8 Let us bring in the witness.
9 [The witness takes the stand]
10 WITNESS: KDZ020 [Resumed]
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, Mr. Witness.
13 Please make yourself comfortable. Please be seated.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 JUDGE KWON: In the meantime, we'll go into private session
17 [Private session]
11 Page 12483 redacted. Private session.
1 [Open session]
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we are now in open session.
3 Mr. Witness, you will be further cross-examined by Mr. Karadzic.
4 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 Good morning, Excellency. Good morning to all.
7 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
8 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.
9 A. Good morning, Mr. Accused.
10 Q. Insisting on these measures, you have freed me of any obligation
11 to be restrained with regard to challenging your credibility.
12 Do you know Haris Trnka?
13 A. I do know Haris Trnka. As for your restraint, please go ahead.
14 Ask whatever you would like to ask, no problem.
15 Q. Thank you. Do you know Hasan Hodzic?
16 A. I know a few people named Hasan Hodzic. I don't know who you
19 A. I knew one of them. I know one particular Hasan Hodzic.
20 Q. Thank you. Can I read out a few names, and then you tell me at
21 the end.
22 Murat Cutura, Hamdija Ackov [phoen], Muhadin Comaga,
23 Husein Comaga, Omer Hadrovic, Vahid Cukujevic -- Husein Comaga,
24 Omer Hadrovic, Vahid Cukujevic, Fikret Hadzic [as interpreted],
25 Himzo Hasanovic, Musad Hasovic, Mirsad Hasovic, Adnan Granilo,
1 Fuad Kobiljak, Senad Kobiljak and others. Do you know these people?
2 A. I know more or less all of them. It's just that you did not
3 pronounce some of the names properly.
4 Q. Thank you. Together with them, on the 4th of May, did you pick
5 up nine Serb civilians and take them away, and afterwards they were
7 A. I was not with them. I am not aware of their participation in
8 this kind of action, and I have nothing to do with this term that you
9 used, "picked up," "picked up Serb civilians." They were not civilians.
10 Q. They were not civilians and they were not picked up from their
11 farms, as they were doing their farm work?
12 A. No, they were Serb soldiers. That is a generally-known thing.
13 And it is also a generally-known thing that there were war operations
14 going on over there. They were no civilians.
15 Q. Oh, so you know about this incident?
16 A. Everyone in the town of Sarajevo knows about that incident.
17 Q. Could you please tell us, then, what it was that happened with
18 these nine Serbs?
19 A. I would be very glad to answer your question if I knew what had
20 happened to them. I heard from people that there was fighting, and that
21 nine Serb soldiers were taken prisoner during the fighting and then were
22 taken to town. I don't know what happened to them afterwards. I weren't
23 [as interpreted] too interested either.
24 Q. This is what it says: They were arrested at their farms in
25 Grahoviste: Branko Sikiras; Branko and Raso Spasojevic;
1 Milorad Spasojevic; Miloj Hajdakovic [phoen]; Ilija Vladusic, and his
2 father, Jeremija; Zeljko Vladusic; Vojo Zivkovic, and so on. At the
3 intervention of certain Muslims, Sikiras and another were released, while
4 the others were killed and exhumed in 1994 by the Kosevo Stadium. How
5 come your name appears on all the paperwork from that period of time,
6 police papers, agency news, as a participant in this group and that
7 picked all these Serbs up from their farms and killed them?
8 A. I don't know how come my name is on these lists, but I can assume
9 which kitchen they come from, as it were. From your kitchen, as you
10 rigged all of this. All those who worked for the police force managed to
11 be the target of your propaganda machinery. I had nothing to do with
12 this, and I'm prepared to answer questions in that regard before any
13 court in law anywhere in the world. I can only assume where you get this
14 information from; from your own intelligence circles, who put on their
15 target lists all the Bosniak Muslims who meant anything. So my name
16 appeared because of that.
17 Q. Oh, so it's not because you led this group. Do you know that you
18 are in all these papers from the time, police reports, agency news, all
20 A. I did not lead that group. What your statement says is not true,
21 and you are placing me in the context of war crimes. I did not lead this
22 group, and I had nothing whatsoever to do with that particular operation.
23 It was a military operation carried out by the Territorial Defence.
24 And, if necessary, perhaps we can move into private session,
25 I can say.
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes, let us go into private session.
2 [Private session]
1 [Open session]
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we are now in open session, Mr. Karadzic.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 Q. So two or three days later, you and your men walked into this
5 same Grahoviste. You killed Divna Vladusic; Jovo Vladusic, who was 72;
6 Luka and Milos, 63; Radovan and Vuka Vladusic -- three women. Were they
7 dangerous fighters?
8 A. You're lying again, Mr. Karadzic.
9 JUDGE KWON: Just a second again before you answer.
10 Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
11 MS. EDGERTON: And that is a compound question that I would ask
12 be rephrased, please.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] All right.
14 Q. Sir, did anybody go to that same Grahoviste two or three days
15 later and kill Divna Vladusic, 37; Jovo Vladusic, 72; Jovan Milos, 63;
16 Radosna, aged 58; Radovan, aged 47; and Vuka Vladusic, 51 years; yes or
18 A. I don't know whether anyone went there or not. At the time, I
19 worked in town. As I have already said, I told you where I worked. At
20 the time, I wasn't even in Kobilja Glava.
21 Q. And you were transferred to town after the first incident; right?
22 A. I don't know which incident you mean.
23 Q. Well, we saw it, the 4th of May, when the first group was
24 arrested, Sikiras and the others?
25 A. No, that's absolutely wrong. Your information is not correct. I
1 was transferred to town earlier.
2 Q. But where did you live, Witness?
3 A. Could we please move into private session?
6 JUDGE KWON: We go into private session again.
7 MS. EDGERTON: And --
8 JUDGE KWON: We may redact -- we have to redact that part.
9 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, thank you.
10 [Private session]
4 [Open session]
5 JUDGE KWON: Please continue.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. My question now is, Witness: Did you know about those lists,
8 about the news, and about the police reports about that incident?
9 A. Yes, because it was broadcast on Serbian Radio Vogosca.
10 Koprivica, Rajko; Tintor, Jovan, and others took part in that. I knew
11 about it. It was generally known, and I really didn't lose a minute of
12 sleep over that.
13 Q. So why did you not set that right? Why didn't you provide the
14 correct version?
15 A. Why should I have?
16 Q. Do you think the families of these wretches made such a big
17 mistake? How do you interpret that?
18 A. Well, now you're saying that I was put on those lists by the
19 families of those people. I don't know that. And I have no information
20 to that effect, and I have no explanation for that.
21 Q. Do you know, Witness, that your name was entered in the books on
22 occasion of that incident and that that book was based on the statements
23 of those families?
24 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, Dr. Karadzic has referred to police
25 reports, media reports, and now he's referring to a book, and I would
1 like to see one source on which he's basing these references, just one
2 single piece of paper to that effect.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Here's one: The Black Book,
4 Chapter 7. I don't know which page, but the footnote is 137. But we'll
5 get back to that and mention the other sources, because we don't know how
6 much time we have and we must continue with other things, important
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Witness, in paragraph 44 on page 14 of your statement, which is
10 Exhibit P2344, you mention that at Vogosca, there were crisis staffs
11 which were illegal bodies. Since you are talking -- you're speaking in
12 the plural, you meant the crisis staffs of both Serbs or Muslims or only
14 A. The Crisis Staff established by the SDS was foremost on my mind.
15 The Muslims only established their Crisis Staff later.
16 Q. And you state that under oath?
17 A. Yes, the Muslims did it later. They didn't establish the
18 Crisis Staff at the same time as the SDS.
19 THE INTERPRETER: Could any unnecessary microphones please be
20 switched off. Thank you.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. In the following paragraph, paragraph 45 on page 14 of this same
23 statement, you say that the Serbs established their Crisis Staff in
24 September 1991. Now, my question is: Did you make a mistake
25 deliberately or did it happen by chance? Because not even the OTP states
1 that the Serbs established the Crisis Staff then, nor is there any proof
2 for that.
3 And I would like to draw everybody's attention to the fact that
4 this can be found in paragraph 99 of the pre-trial brief, where it is
5 stated that under Variants A and B:
6 "I initiated the establishment of the crisis staffs on
7 19 December 1991."
8 So this statement of yours is not correct, or is it? What do you
9 say, under oath?
10 A. Well, you sure said a lot about it. The Crisis staff at Vogosca
11 was established at the time I mentioned. I heard that from Serbs who
12 were in official positions and didn't conceal that either. They felt no
13 need to do so because they felt so strong that they spoke about that
14 publicly. The SDS, irrespective of what you're saying, had a crisis
15 staff as early as December 1991, and it's impossible that you were
16 unaware of that.
17 Q. And did you report that?
18 A. I don't know what you mean. Report to who?
19 Q. Did you make an official note or report when such a body was
21 A. I orally informed the chief of the Security Service, but to
22 little avail because you felt so strong and you were so arrogant that you
23 didn't mind much.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: It should be
25 September 1991 in line 4.
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Since we cannot check that, let's see what is said in document
3 65 ter 1566 on page 1. 1566 from the 65 ter list.
4 And I'll help you. It's an interview with Rajko Koprivica from
5 the 13th of July, 1992. Do you know who Rajko Koprivica is?
6 A. Unfortunately, I know very well who that man is.
7 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
8 Ms. Edgerton, a minute ago Mr. Karadzic referred to the
9 Prosecution's pre-trial brief, where Mr. Karadzic initiated the creation
10 of the Crisis Staff on 19 December 1991. Is it correct?
11 MS. EDGERTON: I'm not sure, and we're trying to find that page
12 now, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE KWON: I have that paragraph before me, but I don't see
14 such reference to that date.
15 MS. EDGERTON: No, I didn't think so. But I didn't want to rise
16 until I actually could get the paragraph up, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The paragraph is 99, and we're
19 talking about document Variants A and B for action in extraordinary
20 situations, which is attributed to me. And this document appeared
21 19 December 1991.
22 JUDGE KWON: No. In any event, paragraph 99 does not bear that
24 Let's continue.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But it is known when the Variants A
1 and B appeared and when they were distributed. It can be found
2 elsewhere. But it's well known that this document didn't appear before
3 the 19th of December. We'll give you the 65 ter number.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Witness, please take a look at the paragraph on the left, the
6 third one. It says:
7 "Immediately before the war, there was a period of calm in which
8 they, the Muslims, got into the Assembly and put pressure on the Serb
9 deputy. Thinking that we would lose power without a single bullet fired,
10 we set up a crisis staff and one morning stormed the Assembly
11 building ..."
12 That was immediately before the war broke out; correct?
13 A. No, it was not.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please see -- or, rather,
15 I seek to tender this into evidence.
16 And then 65 ter 219 so that we may see -- so that we may be able
17 to locate documents A and B.
18 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. I was looking at something
20 What was the answer from the witness in relation to this
21 document? Did you ask any question?
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] He said that, unfortunately, he did
23 know Koprivica.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Is it correct that Koprivica was the president of the
1 Vogosca Executive Board?
2 A. I didn't speak about that, but I can explain.
3 And as for your question about this article, I said that your
4 assertion was wrong. And what Koprivica states here is absolutely false.
5 My answer is negative.
6 Q. What is not correct; that you said unfortunately you did know
8 A. No, no, no, that is correct. I did know Rajko Koprivica, and I
9 co-operated with him, and we knew each other very well. But this
10 interview that you have just put up on the screen, and the assertions in
11 it, are absolutely false, especially with regard to the time when the
12 Serb Crisis Staff was established. And with regard to the assertions
13 that the Muslims and the leftist forces tried to force out the SDS, that
14 is, the Serbs, from the Municipal Assembly, that is completely false.
15 Q. And do you have an explanation why, on 13 July 1992, he would lie
16 to the journalist?
17 A. No, I have no explanation. But he was inclined to lying and
18 blowing things out of proportion, so I don't really have an explanation
19 why he would have lied here.
20 Q. So now you really said it all to his face, although he's dead.
21 What were you saying, that he was blowing things out of
23 A. I said it to him, said it to his face several times, as I've just
24 said it to you, and that's why he didn't like me much. But, well, what
25 can you do? But he was allowed then, of course.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this.
2 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, you know the position of the Chamber
3 with respect to an interview given to the media by a third person.
4 Ms. Edgerton.
5 MS. EDGERTON: I'm just trying to review the extent of the
6 answers and questions. They're rather wide-ranging.
7 I would like, Your Honour, to come back to you on this, because I
8 would like to read the document that Dr. Karadzic has been asking
9 questions of the witness about. And I'll be able to come back to you on
10 this after the first break, if I may.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Yes, we'll hear from you after the
13 break, Ms. Edgerton.
14 Please continue.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please see 65 ter 219.
16 219. Let us try to see when the paper appeared that laid the foundation
17 for the Serbian Crisis Staff, according to the assertions of the
19 Let's turn to the following page, please.
20 We see that the date here is 19 December 1991.
21 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, Dr. Karadzic's comment here was:
22 "Let us try to see when the paper appeared that laid the
23 foundations for the Serbian Crisis Staff, according to the assertions of
24 the Prosecution."
25 And, Your Honour, that's, in fact, not correct. I've had a look
1 now at paragraph 99 of the pre-trial brief and the paragraphs around it,
2 and, Your Honour, the Prosecution isn't resiling from Variant A and B.
3 That signaled a direction to establish crisis staffs that was widely
4 distributed, but that doesn't preclude the establishment of crisis staffs
5 at various locations at any time prior to that. So Dr. Karadzic's
6 assertion here is a misstatement and it's incorrect.
7 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Ms. Edgerton.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can see on the screen,
9 paragraph 99.
10 As was said already, Karadzic, by Variants A and B, initiated and
11 controlled the foundation of crisis staffs, initiated the formation of
12 crisis staffs, and this paper appeared on the 19th of December. Maybe it
13 sounds different in English, but in Serbian it's the way I read it out,
14 the first sentence.
15 JUDGE KWON: Very well. That sentence is in paragraph 100.
16 Please continue.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. When were the Muslim crisis staffs established?
19 A. I don't know when they were established in all of
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina. The one in Vogosca was established during the
21 roadblocks. That is much later, when the roadblocks were around.
22 Q. Does the name Sreten Halilovic mean anything to you?
23 A. Yes, of course.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please look at D298, and
25 page 2 of that document.
1 JUDGE KWON: You didn't ask a question about this document.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is just so that we can
3 establish whether my reference to this document is well founded, because
4 it was contested that I have any grounds for referring to the document,
5 and in reference to the Prosecution's position on the Serbian crisis
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Please, Witness, sir, can you look at this second marked
10 "Immediately after involving myself in preparations for the
11 defence of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina in September 1991,
12 together with the late Safet Hadzic, who was appointed president of the
13 Crisis Staff of the Sarajevo region, and with the help of
14 Mirsad Causevic, now in the Ministry of the Interior, and Senad Masovic,
15 now at the Command of the 3rd Corps, I drew up a proposal for organising
16 the Patriotic League for the Sarajevo area, organised the Regional Staff
17 of the Patriotic League and a plan for the defence of the Sarajevo area."
18 Are you trying to say that in Vogosca, you were quite
19 disobedient, so even though you were in the Sarajevo region, this
20 actually did not refer to you?
21 A. I don't really know what you want with this question. My answer
22 to your previous question was quite clear. I don't know exactly when the
23 crisis staffs were formed, the ones formed by the Bosniaks and the
24 Muslims, but I know exactly when the Crisis Staff of Vogosca was formed.
25 These allegations, what Sefer Halilovic said, is something that I haven't
1 read, so I really cannot comment on that.
2 Q. Well, this is precisely my question. Are you trying to say that
3 in Vogosca, you lagged behind what was done in the entire Sarajevo area?
4 A. I don't know what you intend with this question by saying that we
5 were lagging behind. In what way? It's not clear to me, what you want
6 to say.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at the next paragraph:
8 "After that, I set about realising the plan that had been
9 accepted and organising the Main Staff of the Patriotic League of the
10 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, nine regional military staffs, 98
11 municipal military staffs of the Patriotic League, and a large number of
12 manoeuvre, area and logistics units."
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. So all of this was happening without the participation of
15 Vogosca; is that correct?
16 A. I'm not saying that anything was happening outside of Vogosca.
17 This is what you are asserting. All I said was that I don't know. I
18 cannot confirm what you are stating. I don't know what you're trying to
20 Q. Well, as the prominent secure -- well, you're not aware of this
21 really prominent security event, but you do know about where Serbian
22 officials drank coffee. You were following or monitoring the president
23 of the Assembly, you knew who he was meeting, but you didn't know that
24 this large military organisation was in the process of being set up; is
25 that correct?
1 A. No, it's not. Again, you're trying to put words into my mouth
2 that are not true. I don't know what you are trying to achieve. It's
3 not true. Your assertions are not true.
4 Q. What's not true; that you were not following Krajisnik?
5 A. That's absolutely true, I didn't follow him. I had no need to
6 follow him. He wasn't hiding. Who, among your associates, was hiding?
7 Was any of them hiding? No. So there was no need for us to follow them,
8 because whatever they did, they did it publicly. They came and went
10 Q. We will see later that you did follow him.
11 Witness, can you please tell us, all these intercepts that you
12 identified here, although a large number involved you saying whether they
13 were properly transcribed or not, rather than what was done, who was
14 actually doing these intercepts, these intercepted conversations of
15 Serbian functionaries?
16 A. Can we move into private session, please?
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
18 [Private session]
11 Page 12501 redacted. Private session.
6 [Open session]
7 JUDGE KWON: And on a related issue, Mr. Karadzic, I note that
8 Exhibit D298, which was just shown to the witness, was admitted during
9 the testimony of Mr. Donia, being marked for identification. So whenever
10 it's possible for you to ask some questions which may lay a foundation to
11 the exhibit marked for identification, please do so.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Witness, could we ask you to repeat the general part of your
14 answer. Who was intercepting the telephone calls of high-ranking Serbian
15 officials during the joint government?
16 A. Your question is not properly formulated. The State Security
17 Service did the intercepting. I don't know if people were selected
18 according to their ethnicity, though. I do know the fact, and you know
19 that too, that the number-one person for the State Security Service in
20 Ilijas was Mile Renovica. Later, you appointed him as the chief of your
21 military security. I don't know if it was Mile Renovica who was
22 organising the intercepting of conversations of Serbian politicians or
23 not in Vogosca. Later, you, yourself, appointed him as the chief of your
24 military security. You're very well aware of this. He was responsible
25 for the wire-tapping. You know very well who Mile Renovica is.
1 Q. Well, I don't need to say, actually, that I don't know him. That
2 would be embarrassing to say that. But what you're saying is that this
3 was being done at the municipal level?
4 A. No, I'm not saying that this was done at the municipal level.
5 First of all, what you said is absolutely untrue. It's impossible that
6 you don't know who Mile Renovica is, since you, with your personal
7 decree, appointed him as your chief of military security of
8 Republika Srpska. So it's ridiculous that you are asserting that you
9 don't know him, it's ridiculous.
10 As for at what level the decisions were made for the
11 wire-tapping, I don't know that. But he was the one who was responsible.
12 He was the number-one person of the Secret Service for Vogosca. This is
13 something that can be checked any time, just as the fact can be checked
14 that you appointed him as the military -- the chief of your military
15 security, and now you're claiming that you don't know him. That's really
17 Q. Sir, are you saying that the president appoints his clique, or is
18 it more likely that proposals are submitted to him? Are you saying that
19 I appoint people to posts or do you allow for the possibility that
20 ministers or other bodies make these proposals?
21 A. Well, you can say whatever you want. But if you're trying to say
22 that you don't know what you were signing, that that is ridiculous. You
23 cannot say that you don't know who Mile Renovica was and that you did not
24 appoint him as your military security head. This is something that was
25 broadcast on your television. I watched it in Sarajevo. And I knew him
2 Q. Witness, sir, can you please tell us, how many intercepts by
3 Mr. Izetbegovic, Munir Alibabic, Bakir Alispahic, Jusuf Pusina, and other
4 police, high-ranking Muslim officials, how many such intercepts were you
5 shown to identify them?
6 A. There was no need for them to be shown to me. I don't know why
7 they would be shown to me. I'm sure that those people were wire-tapped
8 as well. I see no reason to have such intercepts shown to me.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, if there was any such
10 wire-tapping, I would kindly ask the Trial Chamber to ask the OTP to
11 provide us with every single intercept of Muslim officials.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Can we -- well, are you saying that you don't know that the
14 Patriotic League was formed, and that what is being written here by
15 Sefer Halilovic, are you trying to say that this is incorrect?
16 A. No, I'm not saying that it was incorrect. I know that the
17 Patriotic League was formed as an expression of the will of Bosniaks and
18 Muslims to defend themselves. Anyone who was a member of the
19 Patriotic League would have reason to be proud of that. I don't know the
20 exact date when it was formed, though.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 Could we look at the last page so the witness could look at the
23 signature of the general. And then I would like to tender the document.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. You're not disputing that this is Sefer Halilovic's signature?
1 A. I don't know. I'm not a professional graphologist. I never
2 communicated with him. I'm not familiar with his signature, so you
3 cannot ask me to deny or confirm something like that.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation]
6 Can we tender this document, please?
7 JUDGE KWON: I don't remember exactly the reason why it was
8 marked for identification at the time, whether it was lack of English
9 translation or others. We'll come to that issue later.
10 But, in any event, did the witness see the first page of this
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at the first page,
13 please. I think we showed it.
14 Well, this is the first page of this document that bears this
15 number, where Alija Izetbegovic is promoting Sefer Halilovic. And then
16 the next page of the document is an integral part of the document, on the
17 basis of which Izetbegovic promoted Halilovic.
18 Can we look at the next page, please, in both languages.
19 Yes. This is the first page, where he's writing a report on his
20 work, and he's sending it to all these addresses at the Presidency. And
21 the first page is the decree by the late Mr. Izetbegovic, promoting him.
22 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, I was just advised that the reason for
23 putting this MFI, the position was lack of the English translation of the
24 first page. So you don't need to dwell on it further. We can proceed.
25 This can be admitted in full, but these things can be dealt with
1 outside the courtroom.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 Q. Witness, sir, can you please tell me what the legal basis was to
4 wire-tap and to distribute these intercepted conversations of Serbian
5 officials in the joint government?
6 A. I am stating, once again, that according to what I know - that
7 doesn't have to be correct, but I believe that it is 100 per cent
8 correct - it was not only the Serbian officials who were wire-tapped.
9 The State Security Service in the then Bosnia and Herzegovina did have
10 legal grounds to do that. I don't know what the legal grounds are. I
11 didn't work in that service. I was not involved in jobs like that, so
12 your question is addressed to the wrong person. I'm not the person who
13 can answer that question.
14 Q. Thank you. But you are saying that this is a usual, customary
15 procedure, and that they had the right to do that, and at meetings of the
16 Municipal Assembly, you were the one who discussed security issues; isn't
17 that right?
18 A. I'm not saying that this is a customary thing, nor was I at the
19 time 100 per cent sure that the wire-tapping was going on. I did not
20 initiate such questions at the Municipal Assembly sessions, either. This
21 is absolutely incorrect, what you are stating.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 Can we now look at D395, please, page 1, so that we can see the
24 structure of the Patriotic League that was being set up before your very
25 eyes as the prominent, very important security event or action.
1 All right. You can look at the structure, the assignments,
2 regional staffs, municipal staffs.
3 Can we now move to the second page, please, third page in the
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Just glance at it. Have you had enough time to just go over the
8 A. Well, I haven't had enough time, and the typing is quite small
9 and you can hardly see anything.
10 Q. Can you please look at what it says on page -- "Municipal
11 Military Staff":
12 "Shall organise command and control forces during -- shall carry
13 out the preparation and direction of defence preparations as a whole."
14 This is the last paragraph in the Serbian, and in the English
15 it's actually the first sentence.
16 Can we now look at page 3, please.
17 It says on page 3 that the Municipal Staff carries out
18 mobilisation preparations and shall be responsible for permanent
19 replenishment of personnel and MTS and form units from the
20 territorially-based and manoeuvre structure. You can look at the
21 document, as well as all the other participants.
22 In the transcript, it is not recorded "plans" and --
23 THE INTERPRETER: Would Mr. Karadzic kindly tell us where he's
24 reading from.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. And you are trying to say that you did not --
2 JUDGE KWON: Part of your question was not recorded and
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we move into private session
5 for a minute, please?
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
7 [Private session]
17 [Open session]
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. I would like to read, once again, this paragraph so that it is
21 recorded; I mean, the question:
22 "The Municipal Staff shall carry out mobilisation preparations,
23 form units -- and form units and plan, and co-ordinate the activity --
24 its activity with the units of the MUP of BiH."
25 It is the third time that this sentence has not been recorded.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We do not have a
2 reference. We cannot find the text.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Let us see what you said in paragraph 41 of your amalgamated
5 statement, what you said there.
6 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, hearing the interpreters, I wonder
7 if Dr. Karadzic could just focus and provide them with a reference so
8 that they actually can interpret.
9 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Ms. Edgerton.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Now it's actually been
11 recorded, so I'll make an effort to do that in the future as well.
12 I'm going to read this out in English to you, because I don't
13 have a copy of my amalgamated statement.
14 Again, I have to move into private session briefly. Closed
15 session? No, private session.
16 JUDGE KWON: We go into private session.
17 [Private session]
11 Page 12510 redacted. Private session.
5 [Open session]
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Witness.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your allegations are absolutely
8 untrue, absolutely untrue. You really have a problem with the truth.
9 Thank you.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 Q. Now, slowly, step by step, we are going to prove what the
12 situation was.
13 Are you claiming that the decision on establishing the
14 Patriotic League was not made on the 30th or the 31st of March, 1991?
15 A. Can you clarify that question a bit for me?
16 Q. This is what I'm putting to you: The decision to establish the
17 Patriotic League of Bosnia and Herzegovina, this secret decision, was
18 passed on the 31st of March, 1991. You claim that that is untrue; right?
19 A. No, I did not say it was untrue. I don't know the date. I don't
20 know the exact date when the Patriotic League of Bosnia-Herzegovina was
21 established. Please, do not put words into my mouth, assertions of that
22 sort, and then you are trying to say that I am lying. Don't do that.
23 That is unfair.
24 Q. Do you claim that the Patriotic League was not established by the
25 30th of April, 1991?
1 A. I'm not asserting anything. I repeat, once again, I don't know
2 the exact date when the Patriotic League was established. I didn't take
3 part in that; I don't know. I've just seen this document now. Whether
4 it's correct or not, I don't know. I am not familiar with the signature
5 of Sefer Halilovic. But you keep trying to put your own untruths into my
7 Q. Do you know that at the police building, on the 11th of June, a
8 council was established, the Council for the Defence of Muslims as
9 organised by the SDA, as a political organisation that would have its
10 military wing as well?
11 A. I don't know which date you mean. The 11th of June which year?
12 Q. 1991.
13 A. I don't know about that.
14 Q. All right, we'll deal with that later.
15 On the 19th or 20th or 21st of September, 1991, did the
16 Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina establish a crisis staff whose president
17 was Ejub Ganic?
18 A. I don't know, although when I testified in the proceedings
19 against your minister of the interior, I first found out about that
20 crisis staff.
21 Q. You don't know anything, and you held a position in which you had
22 to know everything. How come you don't know such major things?
23 A. I didn't say I didn't know anything.
24 Q. You were following the Serbs. You know what Serbs were doing,
25 and you don't know what was happening all over Bosnia and Herzegovina;
2 A. There is no need for you to get so upset. I did my work
3 properly, and I did know what I was supposed to know. My work --
4 actually, can we move into private session now?
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
6 [Private session]
18 [Open session]
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Witness, sir, if you did not know what was going on in the
22 organisation of the Patriotic League and the Green Berets because that
23 was a secret activity, are you, nevertheless, trying to say that you
24 didn't know that the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina, around the 20th of
25 September, publicly formed a crisis staff that took upon itself some of
1 the powers of the Presidency, and the Serbs protested against that? Are
2 you trying to say you didn't know about that?
3 A. I don't know what powers you're talking about. I'm just saying
4 that I did not have to know about that, in view of the nature of the work
5 that I had, in view of the information provided within the service that I
6 worked in. I don't know why you would be protesting. I really have no
8 Q. Thank you. Do you think -- since you happened to miss all of
9 this military organising of the Muslims that started in the spring of
10 1991, do you really think that the Serbs missed all of that as well and
11 that they had no idea what you were up to?
12 A. I don't know what you mean. You had already organised yourselves
13 militarily, and you had a parallel security service well developed, and
14 that was well known. And the members of the SDS in the joint organs only
15 worked in the interests of the Serb people and that political party.
16 That there were spies, that is very well known.
17 Q. Witness, do you have any proof of what you are saying, that the
18 Serbs had a military organisation, a secret service, before the conflicts
19 broke out?
20 A. Well, Serbs, themselves, said that to me. The commander of the
21 station told me that. In a conversation, Seselj Stanic [as interpreted]
22 told me that, too. People were saying that. This was sort of a public
23 secret, as it were. You were not concealing the fact that you had a
24 Serb Territorial Defence, that you had weapons, and that you were arming
25 yourselves. You thought that you were so strong that you didn't have to
1 hide that. You threatened us directly and indirectly. You issued
2 threats. You caused incidents. Your people were shooting from military
3 weaponry. You were arming yourselves legally and illegally, publicly and
4 secretly. Do you really think that we missed all of that together?
5 Q. Let us be more specific about this. You heard from some Serbs
6 that Serbs have a secret service?
7 Oh, the microphone wasn't on.
8 You were saying that you heard from some Serb that the Serbs have
9 a secret military organisation and a secret service. When was it that
10 you heard that?
11 A. It's not that I heard that from some Serb. I heard it from
12 specific people, specific Serbs who communicated with me, that the Serbs
13 had established a territorial defence since September in Vogosca. Do you
14 want me to give you the name?
15 Q. No, no. You tell me whether you compiled an official report and
16 whether you reported that.
17 A. Yes, yes.
18 Q. Can you show that to us?
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, we'll get to that.
24 Let us see how the Serbs followed your arming. 45111, that's the
25 65 ter number I'd like to have called up now, and then page 5 in Serbian,
1 please, and -- actually, let's see the first page first. It's a
2 transcript of Jovan Tintor's interview in a TV show called "My Guest, His
3 Truth." It's on Serb Television.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. While we're waiting for that: Is it correct that you knew, and,
6 as a matter of fact, you mentioned in your statement, that Serbs were
7 slaughtered in the Second World War by the Ustashas and the Ustasha
8 regime in your area?
9 A. I heard that there had been a massacre of the Serb people in
10 Rajlovac. We learned that in elementary school. That's no secret. And
11 that was done by the fascists, the Ustashas.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now go to page 4 -- no, 5; 5
14 in Serbian, and 4 in English.
15 Now we have both versions in English. Could we have the Serbian,
17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The last third of the page. In
19 English, it's also the last third of the page, so it's towards the end of
20 this page:
21 "When we found out and saw that Muslims have already formed their
22 own army, that Muslims have already formed their own military units, when
23 we gave arguments and documented that, then the SDS got involved into
24 this second part, the organisation of people, so that it would not go
25 through another 1941, so that the Serbs would not be slaughtered once
1 again, so that the Serbs would not live through another Jasenovac and
2 other camps, as they did before."
3 The second page, please.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. So the Serbs realised that you had already set up an army, and
6 you're saying it was the Serbs who did that first. Tell us the name of a
7 single unit. What did the Serbs have, except for the JNA? And they
8 responded to JNA call-ups, whereas you did not. The Serbs in Bosnia did
9 not have any military formation whatsoever, and no one can come up with
10 something like that.
11 A. Your assertions are more than ridiculous.
12 Q. Give us a document.
13 A. Well, you've hidden that very well, sir, but we know full well
14 about this and we have statements of people who are members of the
15 Serb Territorial Defence. I personally was told in Vogosca, as were
16 other people, that you have this Serb Territorial Defence in Vogosca.
17 When we intervened, stating why are weapons being distributed to Serbs,
18 they said, This is the affair of the Serb Territorial Defence, and what
19 have you got to do with that? And now you're claiming that you did not
20 have a Serb Territorial Defence.
21 Another thing. I was born in 1950 something. What do I have to
22 do with crimes committed by the Ustashas, the fascists, in Rajlovac in
23 the Second World War? What do I have to do with that? What do any of
24 the Muslims have to do with that?
25 It is generally known that the Ustashas were Croat units, and
1 what do I or any of my compatriots have to do with that?
2 Q. Well, you do have something to do with it.
3 A. No, we do not. That's a lie.
4 Q. We have to take breaks. First of all, you said that you were
5 aware of the situation. You say that in paragraph 27 of your amalgamated
7 A. Yes, and it is true that crimes were committed. But in the
8 Second World War, there were crimes committed by the Serbs as well. It
9 is a generally known thing how many Muslims were slaughtered on the Drina
10 River. Are you trying to deny that? Is that a reason for me to commit
11 crimes against Serbs 50 years later? I mean, you cannot bring me or
12 anyone else into the same context now.
13 Q. Divna Vladusic, Sikiras and those Serbs from Grahoviste who were
14 killed by you and your friends in 1992, they would not agree. They would
15 say it's continuity in respect of 1992.
16 A. Thousands of children and their parents in Sarajevo would not
17 agree that you were innocent, because they were killed and tortured by
18 your forces. 1.600 children killed in Sarajevo.
19 Q. Before the 4th of May, 1992?
20 A. Everyone knows when it happened. And what happened before that,
21 Bijeljina, Zvornik, all these crimes against the Bosniaks, why are you
22 quiet -- why are you keeping silent about that? What did you do in
23 Prijedor? You established a concentration camp there, concentration
24 camps. Do you think that people really didn't know about that, that the
25 world did not know about that?
1 Q. Thank you, Witness. We are not going to debate the issue now.
2 We know that the massacre in Sijekovac took place on the 27th or
3 26th of March?
4 A. I don't know when the massacre in Sijekovac took place. But just
5 before I came here, I saw on Serb Television and other televisions more
6 about the massacre in Sijekovac, where the Roma were killed,
7 unfortunately. I wish nobody got killed. But you are trying to take
8 advantage of that in a completely different context, although it is very
9 well known that you carried out ethnic cleansing of the Roma in the
10 Valley of the Drina as well, you killed them too.
11 Q. Sir, that is untrue.
12 A. Yes, it is true.
13 Q. The Roma you are talking about came to harm after March. On the
14 25th and 26th of March, at Sijekovac, a number of Serb families came to
15 harm, no Roma, although, of course, we're not ruling out the Roma,
16 because the Serbs and the Roma always suffered together.
17 A. That assertion is false too. I was not at Bosanski Brod or at
18 Sijekovac, and I don't know exactly what happened there. But that the
19 Serbs and the Roma suffered together in this war in Bosnia-Herzegovina is
20 untrue. All the Roma in Bijeljina, who were our most prosperous in the
21 then Bosnia-Herzegovina, were ethnically cleansed by you. You looted
22 their property and killed a huge number of Roma, and this is generally
23 known, and I'm sure that it will be included in this indictment.
24 Q. But how do you know what happened at Bijeljina?
25 JUDGE MORRISON: Dr. Karadzic, this is descending from a
1 cross-examination into a simple vitriolic argument. It's doesn't help
2 the Trial Chamber.
3 And neither of you are leaving breaks. The interpreters are
4 struggling manfully to try and keep up, and they're doing a great job,
5 but you're making their lives unnecessarily stressful.
6 I anticipate we should be breaking shortly, and it seems to me,
7 speaking for myself, that it's time to go back to the essence of
8 cross-examination, putting specific questions and eliciting specific
10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Judge Morrison.
11 We'll take a break for half an hour.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I fully agree with His Excellence
13 Judge Morrison.
14 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.
15 --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.
16 JUDGE KWON: As associated exhibits, the Prosecution tendered 14
17 intercepts. Am I correct in so understanding?
18 MS. EDGERTON: Correct.
19 JUDGE KWON: And in -- yes, Ms. Edgerton.
20 MS. EDGERTON: If I can correct myself. Minus one, which I was
21 not able to find in the -- when looking at the transcript, but I did find
22 it has been admitted as part of a Bar Table motion, and that would be
23 65 ter 30674. It's now been given the exhibit number P02226. And my
24 apologies for not noticing that prior.
25 JUDGE KWON: 30674?
1 MS. EDGERTON: Correct.
2 JUDGE KWON: Was it part of your associated exhibits?
3 MS. EDGERTON: Indeed, it was.
4 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
5 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
6 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
7 Among those intercepts, there are some intercepts about which the
8 witness was only able to recognise voices of the interlocutors, without
9 giving any statement in relation to its content or context of the
10 conversation. The Chamber is of the view that recognition of voices, of
11 itself, cannot be a basis on which we can admit an intercept. Of course,
12 the Prosecution will be able to use his evidence; i.e., the recognition
13 of voices can be used later on to authenticate the intercepts as
14 corroborative evidence. But at this moment, we are not minded to admit
15 those intercepts.
16 However, in relation to - I will now pronounce the 65 ter
17 numbers -: 30197, 30228, 30267, 30560. I'll repeat, 30197, 30228,
18 30267, 30560 and 30651, in relation to those documents, intercepts, the
19 witness gave testimony as to its context or its content. So on that
20 basis, we have a basis to mark it for identification. In relation to
21 others, we will not admit them at this moment. And in relation to 23091,
22 23092, 23093 and 23095, we grant your request to add these documents to
23 this Rule 65 ter list.
24 And one further clarification is whether we have English
25 translation of 18288.
1 MS. EDGERTON: We'll let you know almost immediately,
2 Your Honour.
3 JUDGE KWON: I think it was noted as you're not tendering this
5 MS. EDGERTON: We are not tendering that document, but I would
6 let you know if we have the English translation.
7 No, we don't.
8 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. You are not tendering it.
9 MS. EDGERTON: No.
10 JUDGE KWON: I take it there are no objections from the Defence
11 in relation to all the other associated exhibits.
12 MR. ROBINSON: That's correct, Mr. President.
13 JUDGE KWON: So all the others will be admitted and given a
14 number in due course by the Court Deputy. Thank you.
15 Let's continue, Mr. Karadzic.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 Q. I will try to go into private session as little as possible.
18 That is why I will ask questions without a person mentioned. But if you
19 see that we should go into private session, do say so.
20 In Vogosca, there were a total of 23 police officers; correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. How many Serbs were there among them?
23 A. Seven were Bosniaks, one was a Croat, and all others were Serbs.
24 Q. Did you have another armed formation at your disposal, apart from
25 these men?
1 A. No, until the reserve police force was established.
2 Q. When was that force established?
3 A. Around the 20th of September, 1991. It was on the 19th, the
4 20th, or the 21st of September. I'm not sure about the exact date, but
5 it was on one of these three days.
6 Q. What was the ethnic composition of this additional police force,
7 the reserve police?
8 A. In percentages, it was the same as the active-duty staff; that
9 is, 65 to 70 per cent Serbs, about 25 per cent Bosniaks, and about
10 5 per cent Croats. And there were also some Yugoslav people who declared
11 themselves as Yugoslavs.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to go into private
13 session briefly.
14 [Private session]
11 Pages 12524-12526 redacted. Private session.
4 [Open session]
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 Q. Well, then, Witness, I put it to you that in Bosnia-Herzegovina,
8 led by the SDA and its representatives and the authorities, especially in
9 the police, there was urgent activity to establish an army clandestinely,
10 and it was supposed to consist of the Patriotic League, the Green Berets,
11 the Territorial Defence and the Muslim members of the police. What do
12 you say to that; yes or no?
13 A. That is a total lie.
14 Q. Let us now see where it started in the police. You described the
15 structure of the MUP of the republic; correct? Tell us who the minister
16 of the interior was.
17 A. Certainly, that's no problem. It was Alija Delimustafic. His
18 deputy was Vitomir Zepinic. Alija Delimustafic was appointed by the SDA
19 and Zepinic by the SDS. You appointed him.
20 Q. Thank you. And let's proceed by the five administrations that
21 you have described and that you know. Who was the chief and who was a
22 deputy; that is, the number-one man and the number-two man?
23 A. Yes, no problem. The chief of the Police Administration was
24 Avdo Hebib. Are you listening to me?
25 Q. Yes, go ahead.
1 A. So the head of the Police Administration, the uniformed police,
2 was Avdo Hebib, and his deputy was Slavko Draskovic, also known as Kudro,
3 a well-known SDS member. I'm sure you know him well. The chief of the
4 Crime Prevention Department was Momcilo Mandic. That was the police that
5 worked on crime in plain clothes. And his deputy was Hasib Dizdarevic.
6 The minister's assistant for communications was Akif Sabic. I don't know
7 who the chief was. The assistant minister for financial and materiel was
8 Bruno Stojic, and he later became the first minister of the MUP of the
9 so-called Herceg-Bosna. And then there was also the personnel
10 administration. The assistant for personnel was Hilmo Selimovic. These
11 are well-known facts.
12 Q. And the number two in that administration?
15 Q. He's a Muslim, isn't he?
16 A. I don't know if he's a Muslim. Only God can know that.
17 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, can we have a redaction at line 17,
19 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With all due respect, I don't see
21 why lines 17 and 18 should be redacted. There's nothing that can serve
22 to identify this witness.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Well, sir, who was the deputy chief of communications?
25 A. I've already said that I don't know.
1 Q. Do you know that at the level of the republic, there was an
2 inter-party agreement to share power in such a way that the number-one
3 man in one service or administration would be of one ethnicity and the
4 number-two man from another ethnicity?
5 A. Yes, I know that. This principle is even now applied in the
6 institutions of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
7 Q. Is that the reason why Bosnia doesn't have a government today and
8 that the Croats are complaining that they have been deceived?
9 A. I really don't know why the Croats are complaining. Have you to
10 ask them. But you co-operated quite well with them at the time, didn't
12 Q. All right. Let me --
13 JUDGE KWON: Shall we go into private session.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't think that's necessary.
15 [Private session]
2 [Open session]
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. So the minister was a Muslim. The head of communications and the
6 technical service that did the wire-tapping was a Muslim. His deputy, in
7 any case, was not a Serb. The head of the Police Administration was a
8 Muslim; isn't that right?
9 A. Again, you said something that was incorrect. That is not
10 correct. The Communications Sector, headed by Akif Sabic, a
11 Bosniak Muslim, did not carry out the wire-tapping that you are talking
12 about. This is the Public Security Service. The wire-taping was
13 conducted by the State Security Service. These are two different
14 sections and have nothing to do with each other. It's a fact that the
15 minister was a Muslim Bosniak. His deputy was a Serb. It's true that
16 the head of Communications was a Bosniak. I said that I don't know who
17 his deputy was. I don't know if it was a Serb or not. I wasn't really
18 too interested in that. The fact is that the head of the uniformed
19 police was a Bosniak, but the fact is also that the number-two man in
20 that structure was a Serb, Slavko Draskovic, Kudro. I already said that.
21 Q. And the head of personnel was Hilmo Selimovic, and his deputy was
22 a Muslim; is that correct?
23 A. Yes, that is right.
24 Q. And Draskovic, Mandic, did any of those people that you are
25 calling the cadres of the SDS were a member of the SDS when they came to
1 the police for the first time?
2 A. I don't know when they came to the police. I wasn't interested
3 either. But I know that they were members of the Serbian Democratic
4 Party, because -- just let me finish -- because on two or three occasions
5 they organised press conferences conducted by Slavko Draskovic, or Mandic
6 at one point, because they complained that as members of the
7 Serbian Democratic Party in the Ministry of Internal Affairs, they were
8 discriminated against. These were public press conferences that anybody
9 could follow. So they, themselves, declared themselves as members of the
10 Serbian Democratic Party. You cannot claim that they were not members of
11 the SDS and that you did not appoint them to those positions as
12 representatives of the Serbs from the Serbian Democratic Party.
13 Q. Sir, they held a press conference to say that members of the
14 Serbian people were deceived, over-voted, and replaced, not members of
15 the Serbian Democratic Party, and we have enough evidence of that.
16 A. That is absolutely not true.
17 Q. We are not going to debate this.
18 A. No, we're not going to debate this. I just want to say this --
19 Q. Can you please tell us how it was in Vogosca?
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
21 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, both Dr. Karadzic and the witness,
22 with respect, need to be reminded, I think, to have some pauses between
23 their questions and answers and to not argue with one another, because
24 this becomes impossible.
25 JUDGE KWON: Just slow down and put a pause between the question
1 and answer. We have to follow.
2 Yes, Mr. Witness.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. I will try to slow
4 down. But please allow me to answer the question.
5 The first high-ranking official in the MUP who was replaced was a
6 Bosniak. His name was Osman Jasarevic. And it's not true that the Serbs
7 were replaced, manipulated, and all of that. These assertions absolutely
8 do not stand.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I must apologise to the
10 Trial Chamber and to the OTP, to Madam Edgerton, but this witness is
11 resorting to generalised statements, to which I have to respond.
12 However, let's stick to what you know, Witness, sir.
13 Can we now move into private session, because we are going to be
14 dealing with your municipality now.
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Do you have anything to say before we go into
16 private session, Mr. Witness? Yes, please carry on.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not resorting to any
18 generalised statements. I stand behind everything that I am saying. I
19 don't want my testimony to be understood as any kind of argument or
20 quarrelling. I stated solemnly that I would speak the truth and nothing
21 but the truth, and I will not be saying anything other than that.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. All right. Who was appointed instead of Jasarevic?
24 A. Kemal Sabovic was appointed in his stead.
25 Q. And what is his ethnicity? Is he the same as Jasarevic?
1 A. Probably. Since he became deputy minister of the MUP in
2 Bosnia and Herzegovina, a deputy of Bruno Stojic, he is a Bosniak, but in
3 the para-state of Herceg-Bosna he was at the post of deputy minister for
4 internal affairs. And you probably know that.
5 Q. When Sabovic was replaced, who came in his place?
6 A. Bakir Osmanagic came in his stead.
7 Q. And what is his ethnicity?
8 A. Bosniak. I don't know why that is controversial, that all of
9 them are Bosniaks.
10 Q. This is not controversial. The post belonged to Bosniaks, so
11 when one was replaced, he was replaced by another Bosniak; is that
13 A. Yes, that would be logical. According to the inter-party
14 agreement, it would be logical for things to proceed like that. But you
15 are deliberately not stating one fact, and that is that the chief of the
16 Security Services Centre had assistants who were Serbs, Croats, Yugoslavs
17 and so on and so forth. And another fact you are just ignoring and that
18 is that the structure of the employees in the republican MUP, in the
19 CSBs, and in other security service centres, was quite unfavorable for
20 the Bosniaks and for Croats, because the Serbs made up an overwhelming
21 majority in those places, and you are just not mentioning that.
22 Q. Sir, that is not our topic. We will be dealing with that in
23 another way. All I'm asking you is this: Is it normal that if a certain
24 post was given to a Muslim, that when that person was replaced, it would
25 be given to another Muslim? I mean, a Serb could be placed to that post,
1 but that post still belonged to the SDA?
2 A. Yes. According to the inter-party agreement, that post belonged
3 to the SDA, so it would be logical that a Muslim would be appointed.
4 JUDGE KWON: Still --
5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the question.
6 JUDGE KWON: Still too quick in responding. Put a pause between
7 question and answer.
8 Shall we go into private session now? Mr. Karadzic, shall we go
9 into private session? Yes.
10 [Private session]
11 Pages 12535-12547 redacted. Private session.
1 [Open session]
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Has that already happened? Yes.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. You say that Biljana Plavsic was chairman of the
6 National Defence Council of the republic, and that it was on her orders
7 or with her support that Alija Delimustafic, on the 21st of September,
8 1991, mobilised the entire reserve police force. If I put it to you that
9 Alija Izetbegovic was chairman of the National Defence Council, and that
10 Biljana Plavsic and Nikola Koljevic did not take part in this at all,
11 what are you going to say to that?
12 A. I'm not going to believe you.
13 Q. You're not going to believe me that Izetbegovic was chairman of
14 the National Defence Council?
15 A. No, no. Maybe Izetbegovic was chairman of the council, but I
16 believe with 100 per cent certainty that it was Biljana Plavsic. And it
17 is certain that the decision on the mobilisation of the reserve police
18 force could not have been made without the participation of the Serb
19 officials, that is to say, Biljana Plavsic and Nikola Koljevic. Such a
20 major decision could not have been reached without the two of them, and
21 you know that full well.
22 Q. Thank you. Now look at paragraph 46:
23 [In English] "This entire reserve staff was mobilised pursuant to
24 the order of Delimustafic on 21st of September, 1991."
25 [Interpretation] Do you remember, Witness, that on 4 April,
1 Mr. Izetbegovic mobilised the entire Territorial Defence? He ordered a
2 general mobilisation, contrary to the demands of Biljana Plavsic and
3 Nikola Koljevic; they were against it?
4 A. I don't remember.
5 Q. Thank you. Apart from this mobilisation of the reserve forces,
6 simultaneously Mr. Mile Hasanovic, the president of the municipality of
7 Vogosca, simultaneously wanted to mobilise the Territorial Defence? That
8 was in September 1991; correct?
9 A. It was in September 1991.
10 Q. Please, can you tell us against whom the president of Vogosca
11 municipality wanted to mobilise the Territorial Defence in
12 September 1991? Who was the supposed enemy?
13 A. The existence of a supposed enemy was not required for the
14 mobilisation of the Territorial Defence. The situation in the
15 municipality was already such that the existing police forces were unable
16 to keep law and order, and it was necessary to mobilise the
17 Territorial Defence so that they could assist in improving the security
18 situation in the municipality. So there was no supposed enemy as a
19 reason for mobilisation of the Territorial Defence, since the
20 Territorial Defence was a common force, or at least on paper, because you
21 had already taken action, and in September 1991 you had already
22 established your own Serb Territorial Defence at Vogosca.
23 Q. That is wrong, sir, but I'm not -- you're not going to trap me
24 with that. You have no proof for that.
25 Could we please see paragraph 52 of the statement.
1 Are you trying to say that the Territorial Defence was supposed
2 to do policing tasks according to what law, under what law?
3 A. Well, you're putting things wrong again, as if you knew what I
4 wanted to say.
5 Mobilising the Territorial Defence had its legal foundation in
6 the Law on All People's Defence, and you cannot deny that. Under that
7 law, in certain situations, when the security situation is -- has
8 deteriorated, the Territorial Defence can be mobilised legally. But, of
9 course, the Territorial Defence comprised of Serbs, Bosniaks, and Croats,
10 and everybody else. But I'm not trying to trap you. My claim that you
11 had organised the Serb Territorial Defence is completely correct.
12 Q. If it is, the Prosecution will lead evidence to that effect.
13 But you said a minute ago that law and order, or the situation in
14 the defence at the municipality, was such that the police could not carry
15 out their tasks anymore, and that was the reason for the president of the
16 municipality to mobilise the Territorial Defence. In other words, you're
17 saying that the Territorial Defence was supposed to carry out policing
18 tasks. Under what law?
19 A. I repeat that I didn't say that, and I say that the mobilisation
20 of the Territorial Defence had a legal foundation. And you are trying to
21 put words into my mouth that are not correct.
22 Q. It has been recorded, Witness, as your words, but okay.
23 Could we please see paragraph 51 -- I made a mistake.
24 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, is that a question? What kind of a
25 comment is that that Dr. Karadzic is making at this point?
1 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, refrain from making statements. Let's
2 move on.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. I'll read out to you:
5 [In English] "I recognise the voices of Rajko Koprivica and
6 Radovan Karadzic speaking in this conversation. I was at the meeting
7 they are talking about in this conversation. It was the meeting of the
8 Council of National Defence, which happened immediately after the reserve
9 forces of the police were mobilised. I think there's an error in the
10 transcription. On the last page of this conversation, there is the word
11 'pilav,' but in fact it should be 'Bilal.' It refers to Bilal Hasanovic,
12 the president of the Vogosca Municipal Assembly. The topic of this
13 meeting was Hasanovic's initiative to mobilise the Territorial Defence."
14 [Interpretation] So that let's take a look further down the page,
15 and you say:
16 [In English] "... and Stanko Erakovic, on behalf of the
17 Secretariat for National Defence. Elvedin Mehic eventually replaced
19 [Interpretation] So to prevent Stanko Erakovic to stop you from
20 voting this decision, you replaced him by a Muslim; right?
21 A. No. I'll explain.
22 Q. No, don't explain. Was Erakovic a Serb?
23 A. Your Honours, please let me explain this matter.
24 Q. The question was simple. Was Erakovic a Serb, and was Mehic, his
25 deputy, a Muslim? Did he replace him at that meeting?
1 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
2 Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
3 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, this is -- there's been numerous
4 times when the witness has been asked to expand on his answers, and
5 Dr. Karadzic has put him off for whatever reason. And he's directed a
6 request to Your Honours now to explain further on this matter.
7 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Witness, whenever you find it necessary, you
8 can -- you are entitled to respond. Please, by all means. If necessary,
9 we go into private session.
10 THE WITNESS: Yes, I'm for going into private session now.
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
12 [Private session]
11 Pages 12553-12555 redacted. Private session.
3 [Open session]
4 JUDGE KWON: Please continue.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Well, Witness, this is a conversation of 7 September 1991.
7 Jovan Tintor and Milan Plakalovic are talking.
8 Could we please see page 4 of the Serbian and page 6 of the
10 There was some foul language. We'll skip that.
11 And Tintor said:
12 "What will Hilmo do?"
13 And then he swears:
14 "Well, he won't appoint Serbian personnel."
15 And Plakalovic says:
16 "Well, he doesn't make appointments. He just doesn't allow any
17 appointments until Petrovac, Pale, Nevesinje and Sipovo are resolved."
18 And then there's foul language again:
19 "It's a madhouse. They won't appoint anybody before this is
21 Then Tintor says:
22 "Oh, they won't, will they? We will have Vogosca now, and then
23 all the people will go out here, all of them, 10.000 people, to block all
24 the roads, all of them. Nobody shall move anywhere. No, Mato cannot be
25 here with us, not even if he were God himself."
1 And then the other says -- there's foul language, and Tintor
3 "You know that it was said this way. And everything was
4 promised, but they lied all the way."
5 And then Plakalovic:
6 "Well, listen, I saw Momo, and said that Mato should be pushed
7 into the criminal section and that little Skrbic should stay as a deputy
8 down there."
9 Could we go to the following page in the Serbian.
10 Tintor says:
12 And the next page in the English, please. We wanted to go to the
13 following pages in both versions. In English, we need page 7.
14 Tintor says:
15 "There aren't even 4 per cent of them."
16 He's referring to the Croats, because Mato is a Croat; right?
17 A. I don't know what Tintor meant, but I know that Mato is a Croat.
18 Q. All right. And Plakalovic says -- Tintor says: "Yes, yes."
19 And then:
20 "The Croats, there aren't even 4 per cent of them. They can't."
21 And we'll skip these two. And then Tintor said:
22 "It's going to be a madhouse. We were telling them nicely,
23 'Don't do it, don't do it.' You know what they did to us? They had a
24 chief. And having a chief, you know what their advantage is over us.
25 They have 18 deputies, and we have 15."
1 And then the other says: "Yes."
2 And then Tintor:
3 "Well, they won by some 600 people. Okay, never mind. You
4 appoint number 1, we appoint number 2. You appoint number 3, we appoint
5 number 4. You appoint number 5, no problem. Let us have a 3:2 ratio.
6 But that is not fair either, because if they have the number one-man --
7 but what the hell. But they gave us the crime section, which is under
8 the commander now. You know they were ..."
9 And the other says: "Yeah, yeah."
10 And Tintor says:
11 "And now, well, we are entitled to a deputy. So, as a matter of
12 fact, we have one man. And this one is removed ..."
13 Let's go to the next page 8 in English. Actually, we're still on
14 the 7th page. And it says:
15 "Well, yes. And now, for God's sake, the remover
16 [as interpreted] man who was working on farms, a chief ..."
17 And this one says:
18 "I know, I know. He was there the other day."
19 And then there's foul language:
20 "Now we don't have him either. Oh, God."
21 And they remove the man, they have him retired, who was in charge
22 of reserve forces. And:
23 "Why, what do you know? Some Simo Vuleta guy? Do you know him?"
24 Let's go on to page 9.
25 Jovan Tintor says:
1 "Well, he was sent into retirement."
2 And then there's foul language:
3 "We don't have one single man. They took over the whole of the
4 but we are going to create our own SUP. It will be the first SUP in
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the first for Serb SUP."
6 And the other says, Don't pull my leg, or something of that kind.
7 And then Tintor says:
8 "Sure, we'll divide everything. And now go ahead and throw us
9 out. If all the police is 100 per cent, Serbs or one side, and you guys
10 go ahead and make yourself a SUP. No problem at all."
11 So can you see what kind of what anger and uncertainty and
12 tension you caused by making such arrangement -- arrangements? Have you
13 identified this conversation?
14 A. Yes.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I'll comment later in
16 closed session.
17 Could we now see 65 ter 30230.
18 JUDGE KWON: You read out the transcript for five minutes, and
19 the question you asked is:
20 "Have you identified this conversation?"
21 What kind of question it was?
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The question was for public
23 session. To ask the right question, I need to go into private session.
24 But I wanted to show one more and then ask the question in private
1 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please see 65 ter 30230.
3 JUDGE KWON: After this, we'll have a break.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, we have that document.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. This was on the 12th of September, three days after that added
7 conversation of five, the conversation between Jovan Tintor and
8 Mico Stanisic, and we see that they are on a -- they are addressing each
9 other formally, so they aren't even close friends.
10 JUDGE KWON: Do we have English translation? Yes, it appeared
11 now. Thank you.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the following page.
13 The third line from the top, where Tintor says: "All right."
14 And then a tiny swear word:
15 "Well, I just thought I would call you --"
16 Actually, in the English we also need page 2.
17 All right. This is line 10 in the English page:
18 "I said to myself that I should call you. Those people of mine
19 are not getting off my neck, and they are right. Do you know whether
20 anyone has submitted the report about what has been done here in
22 Then they refer to this Andjelic.
23 And then on the next page, he says:
24 "Let me tell you this, Jovo. I, as a lawyer, have my own view."
3 "Yes, and it's not clear to me that anyone can be appointed while
4 the other person is not relieved of duty first. Can this be done?"
6 "Well, I couldn't believe that this could be done like that, that
7 somebody was appointed to perform a certain job and the other person was
8 not replaced anywhere, and there was no decision replacing the person who
9 was carrying out that duty so far."
10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We were not able to find
11 the original.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. It's the same thing with the deputy commander, when Stanisic
15 "People really don't know. I mean, I am a person who respects
16 the law, I do what the law says. A small cuss word, this is the only
17 rule, according to me."
18 Tintor says:
21 "Because everything else, as soon as you give privileges to
22 somebody else, it has to bring some harm, and the other way around of
25 "Yes, yes."
2 "As soon as you are harming one person, then you are granting
3 privilege to another person, and that is not a normal thing for lawyers."
4 Thank you. New Serbian page.
5 And then Stanisic says:
6 "And so they visited me. They know about the problem in the MUP,
7 and I expect them to make a correction. Man, first of all, I mean, I
8 would not want -- if I were in their place, I would not allow myself to
9 be so illiterate and so ignorance of the judicial system ..."
10 English 3, page 3 in the English.
11 Tintor says:
12 "You know what? I'll be honest with you. There is another thing
13 more now. We were -- I was promised, Wait for two days, wait for seven
14 days. We waited. You should know that the first SUP that will have the
15 Serbian side and the Muslim police will be the Vogosca SUP. Remember
16 this, what I've told you today, Minister. You are free to say that
17 10.000 Serbs will get out. I will take them out, and let me see the
18 ass," the lower side of the back, "that will approach that SUP, and we
19 will write ..."
20 All right. Can we go to the bottom.
21 Tintor says:
22 "We have no other solution. We waited according to the law this
23 and that. There is no law here. All human rights are being violated,
24 and the issue is no longer dignity of our nation. Be sure that tonight I
25 will raise 10.000 people, and there is no," small cuss word, "that that
1 will pass. Get a thousand members of the special forces, but you can
2 only take the dead out of here ... Vogosca. Remember what I have just
3 told you. The Serb people in Vogosca will not suffer because of this
4 injustice. This is not the case," and so on and so forth.
5 I think that what he meant to say was that things are not even
6 done like that in Katanga. Katanga was a symbol for uprisings and
8 Can we look at page 5 in English and the following page in the
10 Stanisic says:
11 "Jovo, one needs to wait a little bit. We should wait for the
12 heads to cool."
13 Tintor says:
14 "My head is quite cool. We have been cooling our heads long
15 enough here in Vogosca. People are making fun of us; of the Serbian
16 party, too. The things they're doing to us, they're slowly kicking our
17 people out."
18 And then a cuss word:
19 "They have no solutions, other people get the solutions, and
20 these did not get it. People are standing, they are throwing away
21 their -- they are tearing off the doors, desks. There is nothing like
22 that in this entire world."
23 And then it's at the bottom of the Serbian on this page and
24 page 6 in the English.
25 Stanisic says:
1 "I have to admit one thing, because I always try to be objective.
2 The way it happened is not the way it should have happened. I still have
3 not sorted out things for myself. Maybe the people who are at the top of
4 the MUP do not know that it was done in this manner, because," cuss word,
5 "it depends on how the chief or certain persons presented it, you know,
6 and everyone has his own way. Well, Jovo, let me check it out. I will
7 call Vito now. I will call Momo too ..."
8 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
9 This exhibit is already in evidence. Let him read, and you can
10 ask questions. You read out for seven minutes now.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.
12 Can we move into private session?
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Just a second.
14 [Private session]
11 Pages 12565-12566 redacted. Private session.
6 [Open session]
7 JUDGE KWON: But for the record, I have to note the intercept we
8 looked at was 65 ter 30230, which was admitted as Exhibit P2219.
9 We'll have a break for half an hour and resume at 12 past 1.00.
10 --- Recess taken at 12.42 p.m.
11 --- On resuming at 1.16 p.m.
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. I would like to reformulate this question. Are you aware that in
15 such multi-ethnic communities, the distribution and the balance of posts
16 is a sensitive matter, and that in our case, it was something that was
17 done at the republican level?
18 A. I agree that balance among the ethnic groups is a sensitive and
19 necessary thing. And what we did in Vogosca was done solely and
20 exclusively in accordance with the law, in accordance with the census
21 from 1991, and in accordance with professional standards, which are very
22 important. I don't know why you are trying to present that as a
23 replacing of the Serbian personnel.
24 Q. Who authorised you to make these changes and to alter the
25 republican agreement?
1 A. I did not change the republican agreement. I didn't need any
2 kind of authorisation in order to act in a professional manner. I did
3 not change the republican agreement. The SDS and the SDA agreed to
4 balance the national structure according to the census from 1991. Does
5 that constitute a change?
6 Q. Sir, that is not correct. The balance was agreed on by having
7 agreement on which post belongs to which people. You said yourself that
8 some Muslims were replaced, Kemal Sabovic, Jasarevic and others, and when
9 a Muslim is replaced, a Muslim comes instead of him, and you changed that
10 in your area at a sensitive time and in a sensitive area.
11 MS. EDGERTON: There's no question.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Perhaps it wasn't translated. I
13 did say:
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. What do you say to that?
16 A. If you mean causing the civil war, I think that your assertion
17 absolutely does not stand.
18 Q. Very well.
19 A. And if you're thinking of the need to respect the inter-party
20 agreement, and for the national structure of employees in national organs
21 reflects the census from 1991, I didn't do anything else but that. If
22 that is something that is bothering you, then that is your problem, it's
23 not my problem.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You are changing the tracks. It
25 wasn't like that.
1 Can we please look at 65 ter 30267. You identified this
3 JUDGE KWON: The 65 ter number again.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 30267. I think that was already
5 tendered, because there was a comment in respect of it in the amalgamated
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Witness, I kindly ask you to look at the Serbian version, three,
9 four, five, six, up to the eighth, let's say here, where Karadzic says he
10 wants to make civil war there, and then we have a cuss word.
11 Is it true that Koprivica is telling me - and there you can see
12 that he's the one who called me - he's telling me that he -- actually,
13 that the Assembly president tried to get him to mobilise the
14 Territorial Defence, and Koprivica explained:
15 "I didn't allow that, I didn't allow it. I figured out that here
16 he says a recommendation. Each recommendation carries a certain weight.
17 From whom do we need to protect ourselves?"
18 And then Karadzic says:
19 "Whose -- he wants to make a civil war there ..."
20 And then we have a swear word.
21 Can we have page 2 in the English and Serbian, please, where
22 Koprivica says:
23 "It seems that he wants to ... distribute weapons, and if that is
24 not allowed because the weapons are in the barracks, it is not allowed,
25 he said, You shall create a revolt."
1 And Karadzic says:
2 "No way ... he wants to create -- to create a separate army, a
3 republic army."
4 And then a little bit lower, Koprivica informed him that he had a
5 very good composition and that even those from the left bloc were on his
6 side. Even though there was a Muslim from his bloc, he supported him,
7 and the decision on the mobilisation was prevented. And then he says:
8 "I said, You want to follow the instructions to create chaos for
9 me, a civil war."
10 And then Karadzic says:
11 "And did the Serbs respond to the MUP, to the reserve police
13 And he says:
14 "Yes, they did. I told them to respond so that we do not stay
15 alone, so that they do not make any sabotage."
16 And can we look at the following page in the English and the
18 The next page, Koprivica says:
19 "I said journalists cannot witness that. You are wanting to get
20 'pilav" according to the directives. I said, To get recommendation that
21 carries much weight, you don't understand, I do not want to have a civil
22 war here ..."
23 And then Radovan Karadzic says:
24 "That is good, excellent."
25 So can you see, Witness, sir, that Koprivica, Rajko, and
1 Karadzic, Radovan, are against a civil war, and that they believed that
2 this measure was a step towards the civil war, and that Koprivica even
3 asked Bilal, Who are we going to be fighting against in order to muster
4 the Territorial Defence?
5 A. And what is your question?
6 Q. Can you see that we were against the civil war and that these
7 measures we believed were leading to civil war?
8 A. No. What you are trying to do is twist things and facts. I am
9 talking -- I would like to ask the Trial Chamber that the accused does
10 not interrupt me.
11 JUDGE KWON: Please proceed to answer, Mr. Witness.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You are twisting things completely.
13 The request by the president of the Municipal Assembly is legal and
14 legitimate. He is presiding at the Council for National Defence, and his
15 request cannot be any kind of trick. There were valid reasons to muster
16 the Territorial Defence units, but of course this didn't suit you,
17 because those units that would have been mobilised would have been
18 multi-ethnic ones, including Bosniak Muslims, Serbs, Croats, Yugoslavs,
19 and everyone else, and this did not suit you because you already had your
20 own Serbian Territorial Defence, you already had your weapons, and there
21 was already enough arms that you got from the barracks that you brought
22 to Vogosca through different JNA channels, and there was a lot of weapons
23 also that you brought from the fronts in Croatia, because Serbs en masse
24 took part in the fighting in Croatia. They went to Republika Srpska.
25 They fired shots, they created troubles. So your assertion is absurd.
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. I would like you to provide the OTP with evidence for all these
3 assertions that you are making. What I'm asking you: Is the TO and the
4 overall defence system in the then Yugoslavia at the time something that
5 was subordinate to the Yugoslav People's Army?
6 A. The TO was not subordinated to the JNA, even though it was part
7 of the overall All People's Defence system. It had its own civilian
8 command, the TO had its own civilian command, but it was part of the
9 All People's Defence system.
10 Q. All right. You say that the MUP, in fact, to a large extent,
11 became divided already on the 31st of January.
12 Can we have a look at 65 ter 16146. The 21st of January, 1992,
13 or the 31st. Can we have a look at this document.
14 Can you just have a look at this document, please.
15 Do you remember this document that you commented upon during your
16 previous testimony as well? Isn't that right?
17 A. I remember this document.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 Can we now have 65 ter 22107, page 12, paragraph 70.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. I'm going to read it out in English:
22 [In English] "I have reviewed the document bearing the number
23 0063-5882 to 0063-5882."
24 [No interpretation]:
25 [In English] "I don't remember receiving this document, but I
1 remember the issue. This order was issued in the times of tension, where
2 the employees were already divided on ethnical principles. Everybody was
3 affected at all levels."
4 [Interpretation] And then there's a reference to the police
5 station in Vogosca that was similarly divided.
6 So on the 31st of January, 1992, the police was divided. Is that
7 what you said in this statement?
8 A. I don't know which context you're referring, how it was divided.
9 In this period, police officials --
10 Q. On ethnic grounds.
11 A. Policemen worked together, both, but certainly the division was
12 felt in the air. They worked together. They went on joint patrols, they
13 went out on various assignments together.
14 Q. It says "already divided." That's what it says here. Do you
15 remember that Momcilo Mandic sent a dispatch about the establishment of
16 two MUPs on the 31st of March, 1992, that is to say, two months after
18 A. Again, your assertion is incorrect. Momcilo Mandic did send a
19 dispatch after this date. However, it was not a dispatch on the
20 establishment of two MUPs, and you know that very well, Mr. Accused. He
21 sent a dispatch on the destruction of the republican MUP, on the
22 establishment of a Serbian MUP, on taking over all employees and
23 establishing Serb government and a Serb MUP. There was no mention of the
24 establishment of two MUPs. That is an absolute falsehood.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we call this up, 65 ter 1016.
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Do you remember, Witness, that on the 18th of March, the
3 Lisbon Agreement had been reached, on the basis of which the Serb entity
4 was entitled to have its own police?
5 A. I remember the Lisbon Agreement, but it was not verified
6 anywhere. Tell me, where was it verified, and what made it incumbent
7 upon me or anyone in Bosnia-Herzegovina to observe it?
8 Q. The consent of the top political authorities in
9 Bosnia-Herzegovina. The late Mr. Izetbegovic, may he rest in peace,
10 accepted this agreement.
11 Now, look at what Mandic says towards the bottom. Have a look at
12 this. In English, it's also towards the bottom.
13 All employees who were employed on the day when this document
14 entered into force, the Security Services Centres and Public Security
15 Stations of BH MUP on the territory of the Serb Republic of
16 Bosnia-Herzegovina are abolished and cease to function, and their
17 authority, i.e., tasks and duties within the competence of organs, and so
18 on and so forth.
19 And look at this:
20 "The 27th of March, 1992, the Assembly of the Serbian Republic of
21 Bosnia and Herzegovina in accordance with the political orientation of
22 the Serb people and the Sarajevo Agreement," and the Sarajevo Agreement
23 is basically this Lisbon Agreement that had been reached, "promulgated
24 the constitution of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. In
25 addition to that, the Assembly of the Serbian People passed a number of
1 laws ..."
2 And so on and so forth.
3 Witness, this is based on agreement reached by the top echelons
4 of political authority with the international community, and that was
5 sent two months after your assertion that all of this had been divided
6 up; yes or no?
7 A. Mr. Accused, what you said here is something that is constructed.
8 You are presenting propositions that have nothing to do with one another.
9 The late Izetbegovic, as far as I know, did accept the Lisbon Agreement.
10 However, the Lisbon Agreement was not verified anywhere. And I,
11 personally, or anyone else in Bosnia-Herzegovina, were not bound by this
12 agreement in any way. The Assembly of the Serb People that you
13 established did not have any stronghold in the existing legislation of
14 Bosnia-Herzegovina. It was an illegal creation, and all of its decisions
15 were illegal and were actually destroying the constitutional order of
16 Bosnia and Herzegovina, and that includes the establishment of the
17 Serbian MUP.
18 The dispatch of Momo Mandic shows unequivocally that the
19 republican MUP would no longer exist, that there would only be a Serb
20 MUP, and that all non-Serbs have to be resubordinated and pledge their
21 allegiance to the Serb MUP. Do you consider that to be right?
22 Q. In your statement, you also say that it was envisaged that those
23 Muslims who stay on in the Serb police station would go on working;
24 however, they have to pledge allegiance, as you had put it, or, rather,
25 be local and accept these new authorities; right?
1 A. I don't understand your question. What are you trying to say?
2 Q. Did you state in your statement that you were told, from the Serb
3 side, that those policemen who remain in the police station can stay on,
4 on the condition that they accept this authority?
5 A. On the condition that they accept an illegal, unlawful government
6 of brigands. There were people like that as well in Bosnia and
7 Herzegovina, and very quickly they ended up in your concentration camps.
8 It never crossed my mind to take off some insignia and to put Serb
9 insignia on my forehead.
10 Q. Everything you have to say that falls outside the scope of my
11 question, you can say during the Prosecution's time, and then they are
12 going to use that appropriately.
13 A. Allow me to --
14 Q. You're spending my time.
15 A. You're spending my time too, Mr. Accused. Allow me to answer.
16 JUDGE KWON: By all means, Mr. Witness. But if you can be brief,
17 be brief as much as possible.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll try to answer as briefly as
19 possible. I wish to give a thorough, clear, and concrete answer to each
20 and every one of these questions that you are putting to me. It is your
21 problem, the fact that you don't like my answers. It's not my problem.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. I like every answer of yours. Just make it as short as possible.
24 When did this attack against the police station take place, the
25 one that you described; what date? Boro Radic, you know.
1 A. I don't remember the exact date. It was after this dispatch, so
2 it was sometime in the beginning of April 1992.
3 Q. After the dispatch; right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Let's see what you say in your statement from 1998.
6 65 ter 22105, please, page 5.
7 Paragraph 4 from the bottom. I'm going to read this in English:
8 [In English] "After the attack on the station, Momcilo Mandic,
9 assistant of the minister of the interior and the person in charge of
10 criminal police at republic level, sent a written order directing that
11 all existing police stations be split up on a national basis."
12 [Interpretation] So after this attack; right?
13 A. No. I don't remember this particular paragraph from the
14 statement. I know that the station was attacked after the dispatch of
15 Momcilo Mandic.
16 Q. Was your memory better in 1998, better than in 2011?
17 A. Memory is a relative thing.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 Can this be admitted, this paragraph?
20 JUDGE KWON: Is this the statement, part of which we admitted
21 previously? No.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't think so. This is from
23 1998, his statement from 1998.
24 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
25 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D1108, under seal, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes. When we admit a part of a statement, let's
2 admit it together with the first page so that we can know what it is
4 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, this is not being broadcast, is it?
5 JUDGE KWON: No.
6 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
7 JUDGE KWON: The Court Deputy will check it out. I don't think
8 it was broadcast.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Mr. Witness, who suggested to you that you should make such
11 changes in your statements, that you change some fundamental things in
12 your statements?
13 A. I don't know who you mean. I am a man of integrity. No one made
14 any suggestions to me whatsoever.
15 Q. Oh, I see. So it's at your own initiative that you changed these
16 important facts in your statements; right?
17 A. Perhaps that fact is important for you. It is for me too. But I
18 gave the statement in 1998, so that is, what, eight years -- no, six or
19 seven years after all of this happened. So if I made a mistake, perhaps,
20 in terms of 10 or 15 days, I don't see any reason for that to be taken as
21 some kind of a major mistake. After all, it's been a long time, and many
22 things happened in relation to that.
23 Q. Thank you. Witness, was the possibility envisaged for Serbs, who
24 remain in a Muslim municipality and work for a Muslim police station,
25 also work for the police, actually?
1 A. Well, you did not think along those lines as well. We did not
2 think in that way in which you are thinking, Mr. Accused. For us, the
3 police in Bosnia-Herzegovina always was, is, and shall be a multi-ethnic
4 police force, where there is going to be room for the members of all
5 ethnic groups. I never thought along these separatist lines as you think
6 and your followers. I'm not interested in that kind of policy. And we
7 never thought of eliminating the Serbs from the police, no. To this day
8 in the federal police, in all the cantons, you have hundreds of policemen
9 who are graduates of the Police Academy in Sarajevo, and as honest and
10 honourable men, they conduct police work. Are they more or less Serbs
11 than what?
12 Q. "We do not think that way," that's what you say. Who is "we"?
13 A. We Bosniak Muslims, if you want a specific and accurate answer.
14 Q. And we Serbs and Croats, who constitute the constitutional
15 majority of Bosnia-Herzegovina, think along some different lines. You
16 want to keep us in a marriage by force?
17 A. Who gives you the right to speak on behalf of the Croats, and how
18 would you know what they think? As far as I know, you don't have the
19 right to speak in the name of the Serbs, either, any longer.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let's leave that aside.
21 30595, let's have that 65 ter number.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. You remember that an offer had been made to you for you to
24 establish a municipality, as well, consisting of the Muslim parts of the
25 municipality. Why are you not saying that you'd get part of the urban
1 area as well? You say that you were offered Hotonj, Gornje, Donje
2 Ugorsko, Kobilja Glava, these villages. Why have you keep silent about
3 the fact that you would have been given half of the city as well?
4 A. I haven't kept silent about anything, and your claim is an
5 absolute lie, it is totally untrue. No one offered the Bosniak Muslims
6 any more than what I said, absolutely nothing more than that.
7 Q. Did you enter these negotiations, and was that the conclusion
8 that you reached, that nothing else had been offered to you?
14 Q. Thank you. Would you now please focus on this intercept between
15 some Kole and Ratko Adzic, who was -- page 3 in English. I believe that
16 that's the same in Serbian. No, it's page 5 in Serbian. Prodanovic is
17 calling Kole. Some Prodanovic is calling Kole, Jovo Prodanovic; right?
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
19 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, I'm sorry.
20 Before it disappears from the screen, I wonder if we could have a
21 redaction at page 101, line 5. Do I have the -- 5 and 6, please. And
22 I can explain the reason for my request in private session.
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Shall we go into private session.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If it must be. I don't see why,
25 but all right.
1 [Private session]
10 [Open session]
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Please direct your attention on the Serb version. It's written
14 in Latin script, and in English it's Chapter III.
15 Prodanovic called Kole and they have an exchange.
16 Could we please see the following page in English.
17 Lest I read everything, please look somewhere halfway through the
19 [In English] "Well, yeah. But, hell, they didn't screw them.
20 Don't be a fool. They wanted an Islamic state, and there's no ... they
21 won't give up, when it's like ..."
22 "Like," and something is illegible:
23 "Do you think they'll make it?"
24 "Of course."
25 [No interpretation]:
1 [In English] "They won't with us for sure, they can next to
2 us ... no problem, and we shouldn't prevent them. Our dear God sent them
3 to open our eyes, what needs to be done."
4 [Interpretation] The text follows on the next page in Serbian,
5 and toward the end of the English version:
6 [In English] "Will it be divided right away?"
7 [Interpretation] Kole responds: "It will."
8 And then page 7 in Serbian and the following page in English, the
9 one after this page.
10 Prodanovic is asking questions now. His house is at
11 Donja Vogosca, and he says:
12 "Where will it be?"
13 And Kole says:
14 [In English] "It belongs to the Serbian Autonomous District of
15 Romanija, everything from the source of the Bosna River to Visoko.
16 Brother, all of it will be connected and incorporated into Romanija.
17 "Of course, new municipalities will be made, a new municipality
18 is already being made - Rajlovac, which will include Zabrdje, and the
19 area all the way up to Vrelo Bosne and over here to the Serbian
20 Vogosca ... Serbian Vogosca will include everything all the way to KRS...
21 and spread down there, because the Serbs are a majority also down in the
22 city in our local communities ..."
23 MS. EDGERTON: Could we just go over to the next page in Serbian,
24 please, so the witness can follow along with what Dr. Karadzic is
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise. Yes, next page,
2 please. On 7 -- we're still on page 7, but we'll soon be on page 8, and
3 it says:
4 [In English] "We can't take Barica from them, because that
5 belongs to them. Barica and Kobilja Glava are theirs, and the left side
6 is ours."
7 And so on and so on.
8 [Interpretation] And down there it says:
9 "Seriously, that's better than fighting, isn't it?"
10 Can we please see page 8 in the English. I apologise, I meant
11 page 8 in Serbian:
12 "Seriously, that's better than fighting, isn't it?"
13 And he replies:
14 "If they accept that."
15 And so on and so forth.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Do you remember, Witness, that the Serb side agreed not to remain
18 in Yugoslavia, under the condition that it is autonomous in Bosnia and
19 under the condition that they establish municipalities where the Serbs
20 are the majority?
21 A. I don't remember your assertion, but the areas you have mentioned
22 from Vrelo Bosne to Romanija, all the way to Visoko, cannot be said to
23 have a Serb majority. On what ground and by what right? Would you
24 include seven-eighths of the territory of the Vogosca territory into the
25 Serb municipality, and the Vogosca municipality has 51 per cent of Muslim
1 population? Your allegations are ridiculous.
2 Q. That is not our topic, sir. That is a matter for negotiation.
3 It's about the principle. You know about the principle, that the Serbs
4 agreed not to remain in Yugoslavia under the condition that they received
5 their municipalities and their entity, and the European Community
6 accepted that. Did you know about that?
7 A. I never had interest in your principles. It was your principles
8 that brought about the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina, sir. And after that,
9 you committed the crimes you committed.
10 Q. And why would the Serbs care for your decision to leave
11 Yugoslavia? Why do you -- from what have you derived the right to rule
12 our destiny?
13 A. We didn't take you out of Yugoslavia by force. On the 1st of
14 March, there was a referendum in Bosnia-Herzegovina. That's tomorrow.
15 And in Bosnia, the day of independence is observed. On that day in 1992,
16 Mr. Accused, 67 per cent of the population of Bosnia-Herzegovina voted in
17 favour of Bosnia and Herzegovina as splitting away from Yugoslavia.
18 That's a fact.
19 Q. Now you want to draw me into a debate. That's not correct.
20 63 per cent did not vote, nor was it verified in the Assembly, nor will
21 that day be observed tomorrow by Serbs or by Croats; only by Muslims.
22 But you want to impose it on everybody, and that's what caused the war in
24 A. Allow me to answer, sir.
25 Your Honour, may I answer?
1 JUDGE KWON: You don't have to ask. You are just entitled to
2 answer any question.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 Bosnia-Herzegovina is a country of all the citizens living in it,
5 including the Serbs. You can laugh, if you want. The Serbs, Croats and
6 Muslims. But what you did, you threw it back 200 years. We had a
7 referendum, and it was accepted by the global community, whether you like
8 it or not. A growing number of Serbs and Croats living in the Federation
9 observe tomorrow's holiday, and I congratulate Independence Day to you,
10 sir, because you're still a citizen of Bosnia-Herzegovina, unfortunately.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be tendered?
12 JUDGE KWON: I think this has been already marked for
13 identification during the testimony of Donia, which was marked for
14 identification Exhibit P965.
15 MS. EDGERTON: Correct.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 30635, is it also admitted,
17 or, rather, is it -- does this apply to this 65 ter document also?
18 Could we please have it displayed, 65 ter 30635, and then clarify
19 the matter.
20 No, it hasn't been admitted, I understand. Could we please see
21 it on our screens.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. This is a conversation of 7 March 1992. Do you remember,
24 Witness, that as early as in mid-February, or, to be more precise, on the
25 20th or 22nd of February, the idea of three Bosnias had already been
1 accepted? Do you remember that?
2 A. No, I don't remember that, nor would I or any Bosniak accept to
3 have three Bosnias within Bosnia-Herzegovina. This must be a political
4 pamphlet of yours. I don't want to go into that.
5 Q. And how many Bosnians are there now in one Bosnia-Herzegovina?
6 A. There is one Bosnia-Herzegovina, with two entities, with three
7 constituent peoples. I hope you're familiar with that fact.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 Could we please see page 3 in Serbian and page 4 in English.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Here, Jovan Tintor says:
12 "Well, that's better. Let them take their part, and where it
13 will be necessary for us to take ours, we'll take it for sure. We
14 request nothing else that the Serbs rule those areas where -- where Serbs
15 live, and let's Croats rule on Croatian land, and Muslims on Muslim land.
16 Nothing else is possible."
17 And a bit further down on page 5 in English, Tintor says -- he
18 starts with a swear word:
19 "... I'm even worse, believe me, if I had made such a noise, that
20 the earth would have shaken. I talked with Seselj two nights ago and
21 reached a decision. If it doesn't happen, I'll give Radovan an
22 ultimatum. He was supposed to say it yesterday at the press conference."
24 "You can read it today."
25 And Zika replies:
1 "I've read it."
2 And Tintor says:
3 "If they don't tighten the criteria, we won't be loyal to the
4 Serbian Democratic Party anymore. I won't, although I am one of the
5 founders. I will join Seselj's party that very moment, and, in fact, I
6 am 99 per cent ... but I won't destroy this now. It's not time for that.
7 Of course, I won't harm the Serbian cause. I can only strengthen it by
8 joining there."
9 He means Seselj.
10 And Zeljko says:
11 "We are already 80 per cent for Seselj."
12 And then Tintor says on page 6 in English:
13 "Brother, if that happens, I want to have you on the line, if it
14 happens here. If they are not firm enough and if this is not solved
15 faster, and if we fail to do this for the Serbian people, the Serbs will
16 not stay loyal to the Serbian party. That's what I also said to Radovan,
17 and he had to say it yesterday evening."
18 Did you know that the Serb Democratic Party was under pressure
19 from the ground to be more firm?
20 A. No, I didn't know, nor did I care. I didn't -- I wasn't
21 interested in your internal relations.
22 Q. Thank you. And toward the bottom of the English version, the
23 last two lines, it starts with foul language:
24 "What the hell do we have to play up to anyone?"
25 And so on:
1 "They robbed us of our country ..."
2 And it continues on the following page:
3 "They took away my nationhood. They want me to turn -- they want
4 to turn me into an ethnic minority. Who should I play up to? Who can do
5 that to him?"
6 And then foul language:
7 "That won't happen. Here you are. Mr. President, listen to me.
8 If necessary, please work on these preparations."
9 So you are not interested in the political situation in the
10 country, we are insisting on your thing, and you can see that the Serb
11 people are upset by what's happening?
12 A. No, that's not correct. I never said I wasn't interested in the
13 political situation of the country, and you are putting things into my
14 mouth that I haven't said. I only said that I wasn't interested in your
15 internal relations and your opinion regarding this matter.
16 Q. But don't you see, sir, that Mr. Tintor has the same attitude
17 toward me as he has toward you? We are threatened, don't do that. Isn't
18 this the same attitude toward me as it is toward you?
19 A. No, absolutely not. He looked down on me, but he was subordinate
20 to you. He introduced himself to me as vice-president of the SDS, but it
21 was a well-known fact that he was very arrogant and primitive.
22 Q. I wouldn't put it that way, and you shouldn't either. But can't
23 you see him saying that he gave an ultimatum to Radovan?
24 A. I disagree with what you're putting to me. He may have acted in
25 agreement with you.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this excerpt be admitted?
2 JUDGE KWON: No. The witness didn't give any context about this
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, if there's time, we can play
5 it so you can hear it like everybody else. So what you have done for the
6 Prosecution, you may also do for the Defence.
7 JUDGE KWON: No. We admit intercepts, separate from the
8 authenticity, when the witness is able to give some context of it. The
9 witness said that he didn't know anything about this, these incidents.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.
11 Can we see 65 ter 30638. This was also March, 11 March.
12 30638, has this been admitted in any way? It doesn't seem so.
13 The Serbian version is not well legible, but Kole and Zika are
14 talking here. Zika called Kole. I don't know who they are, but listen
15 to what they say.
16 Kole says:
17 [In English] "My brother, the men must extremely careful, to the
18 maximum, because there are those miserable bastards and scum who tend to
19 mess things up, who want to see trouble break out. The men must be
20 100 per cent ready."
21 [Interpretation] Can we see the following page.
22 And here, toward the bottom, Ziko says:
23 "They're working men, they are working men, and we are doing
25 [In English] "They are working men, and we were doing nothing."
1 [Interpretation] Let's see the following page in English.
2 Kole says:
3 "Well, go ahead, work."
4 Zika says:
5 [In English] "They're taking over the territory, part by part,
6 and they're assuming authority, and all we do is hold Assembly sessions."
7 [Interpretation] Kole says:
8 [In English] "Where have they assumed authority?"
9 [Interpretation] Zika:
10 [In English] "Well, fuck it, have they assumed it here in Brod,
11 they've assumed it in Travnik."
12 [Interpretation] Kole says:
13 [In English] "Travnik's not ours. What have we got to do with
14 Travnik? There's Croats and Muslims there. We don't need Travnik. We
15 need to establish authority and the Serbian state in the Serbian
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. So that now can you see that no territories are demanded here
19 that are not populated by a Serb majority?
20 A. No, I don't see that. What gave you the right to declare a
21 territory, sir? In Bosnia-Herzegovina, the population is ethnically
22 mixed, and there are areas where one ethnicity is dominant. But the fact
23 that one ethnicity is less strong, in terms of numbers in a certain area,
24 gives nobody the right to declare a territory Serb, Croat, or Bosniaks.
25 That attitude actually brought about the consequences you inflicted on
1 it, sir.
2 Q. Sir, you are now waging Communist propaganda. We wanted you to
3 stay with us in Yugoslavia. You didn't want to. We didn't make you.
4 But now you don't want to accept that this was our concession to you as
5 our favour -- as the price for our leaving Yugoslavia with you?
6 A. Let me reply to you. I've never been a member of the
7 Communist Party. You probably were, given your position formerly. When
8 you left it, I don't know. I've never been a member of the
9 Communist Party. Communism, as an ideology, never enjoyed my support and
10 I took no interest in it.
11 The Bosniaks never considered Bosnia-Herzegovina their exclusive
12 territory. Since the second session of the AVNOJ, Bosnia has been
13 considered a joint entity of Bosniaks, Croats and Muslims. But since
14 your -- on the referendum, 63 or 64 per cent of the population voted in
15 favour of Bosnia splitting away from the truncated Yugoslavia. Or did
16 you think that Yugoslavia was in accordance with Seselj's Chetnik
17 ideology, everything up until the Virovitica-Karlovac-Karlobag line and
18 cleansed of everybody but Serbs?
19 Q. Yes. In Croatia, we cleansed 160.000 Serbs from that country.
20 A. But you had almost one-third of the territory of Croatia under
21 occupation and cleansed all Croats from that territory, and there were
22 huge Croatian victims. And now you're saying that you're big friends of
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please see 65 ter 30650.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Did you threaten the garrison commander at Semizovac? You speak
2 about that in your statement, don't you?
3 A. I did have a very strong conversation with the commander, where
4 he was insolent, arrogant. He humiliated me, not just me as a person,
5 but me as a Muslim, as a member of the Muslim people. And I did tell him
6 that if he dared to set off through Kobilja Glava, I couldn't guarantee
7 that he would make it there alive. What he set out to do was according
8 to your instructions.
9 Q. And what did you call him, and what did he call you?
10 A. I don't remember who called whom what.
11 Q. But actually you called him to ask him what you were doing there
12 and what kind of exercises they were doing there?
13 A. Yes, I agree.
14 Q. Does the civilian police have the right to call the army and quiz
15 them about what they're doing?
16 A. Of course they do. I'm responsible for law and order in the
17 territory of my municipality, and if the barracks, where the TO weapons
18 are held without the permission of the TO, takes out two guns with trucks
19 and ammunition, and they fire from those guns and disturb the population,
20 who have to seek shelter, don't I have the right to ask the responsible
21 senior officer in the barracks what he was doing, why they were doing it,
22 how can they do something like that without the permission of the
23 National Defence Council, and how can they pull weapons out without
25 Q. Do you agree that reservists, in order to join the army, need to
1 go through training?
2 A. Any police formation has a planned training programme.
3 Reservists that you are talking about were reservists that were arriving
4 from Croatia. These are reservists that you re-organised and
5 re-subordinated and channeled to the Serbian Territorial Defence ranks.
6 This is illegal.
7 Q. Do you deny that at that point in time, war was raging in
9 A. This is a well-known fact. Mr. Karadzic, I didn't say I didn't
10 know that. It's a generally-known thing. What are you trying to say by
12 JUDGE KWON: I feel obliged to intervene at this moment.
13 You have spent with this witness three and a half hours, and
14 you're still dealing with what caused the war, whose fault is it. How
15 are these relevant to your case?
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With all due respect,
17 Your Excellency, joint criminal enterprise from the indictment
18 encompasses my intentions from July 1990 and from the formation of the
19 party. We have a witness here who was part of the joint criminal
20 enterprise to have Bosnia split up from Yugoslavia and for Serbs to be
21 subjugate to a single Bosnia, and you will see two attempts to throw them
22 out of Bosnia, and you will see that this witness interfered in defence
23 powers and matters of the Yugoslav People's Army, and this is evidence.
24 Everything that happened in Bosnia and Herzegovina actually arose from
25 that criminal -- joint criminal enterprise and not for the one that I am
1 charged with.
2 JUDGE KWON: It is up to you, how to efficiently use the time
3 allotted for your cross-examination. You have an hour left. Please
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I just ask a question, please?
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes. What is it, Mr. Witness?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Actually, it's an answer to one of
8 the questions from the accused.
9 I'm here in the capacity of a witness. No court in the world has
10 proceedings instigated against me. There is no statement to that effect
11 against me. There is no mention of any kind of joint criminal enterprise
12 that I am a part of. So you are spreading untruths here, Mr. Karadzic.
13 I did not interfere in matters of the Yugoslav People's Army.
14 JUDGE KWON: That was not a question for you. Please understand
16 Yes, Mr. Karadzic. Continue, please.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at intercept of
19 Rajko Koprivica, the president of the Executive Board of Vogosca, and
20 General Djurdjevac.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Do you remember that General Djurdjevac was the commander of the
23 4th; i.e., the Sarajevo Corps of the 2nd Military District?
24 A. Yes, I remember that. Vojislav Djurdjevac.
25 Q. Thank you. Rajko calls the general and says:
1 "Things are getting complicated here in the army."
2 And Djurdjevac says: "What?"
3 Rajko says:
4 "Reservists, there are several hundreds of them from Ilijas who
5 fled from Ilijas --"
6 MS. EDGERTON: Sorry. Can we go in the next page in Serbian so
7 that the witness can follow along.
8 THE ACCUSED: Okay, then I read it in English.
10 "General, things are getting complicated here in the army."
11 General: "What?"
13 "Reservists from -- there are several hundreds of them from
14 Ilijas, who fled from Ilijas. They are of Muslim nationality. For us,
15 the reserve force, they are heading towards Vogosca to take the station
16 in Vogosca. That is the information I received from my commander."
17 General: "I see."
19 "And also to take the check-points in Semizovac and that one. My
20 men are upset, and they have organised themselves. They want to shoot at
21 them. What are we going to do?"
23 "And who are you?"
25 "I am president of the Executive Board on the Vogosca
3 "What is your last and the first name?"
4 "Rajko Koprivica."
5 "Oh, I see, Koprivica."
7 "Yes, I have visited you."
8 [Interpretation] And Rajko says at the bottom:
9 [In English] "Those ones from Ilijas, because Ratko is down
10 there, practically they have split up in Ilijas. The Muslim police and
11 now the entire reserve and the active-duty force set off towards Vogosca
12 to take check-points and the police station."
14 "The Muslim ones?"
16 "The Muslim ones, only the Muslim ones. It is half/half here in
18 [Interpretation] And then a little bit lower, the general says:
19 [In English] "According to the instructions on operation in the
20 crisis situation."
21 [Interpretation] And Rajko says:
22 [In English] "I am afraid of the further complications. Can you
23 help us somehow?"
25 "Me, well, it won't be good if I help in any way."
1 [Interpretation] Can we look at the following page, please, 5 in
2 the Serbian, and the sixth, and the following page in English as well,
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Can you see the first conversation with the general, where the
6 general refuses to help. And then Kole is speaking with MK - this is
7 possibly Momcilo Krajisnik - and he says:
8 [In English] "Listen, you are a wise man. Do everything in a
9 calm manner. Take my advice."
10 [Interpretation] Do you remember that Krajisnik, MK --
11 Krajisnik -- that "MK" is Krajisnik and that "Kole" is Jovan Tintor?
12 A. Yes, the initials "MK" could stand for Momcilo Krajisnik. I
13 don't know who Kole is, though. However, in his address -- actually, in
14 your address, you mention two types of reservists.
15 It's a generally-known fact, and we already discussed that today,
16 that Bosniaks and Croats did not respond to the JNA reserve forces. The
17 reservists who were in Ilijas were JNA reservists, and a considerable
18 number of them came for -- they came from Croatia. And a large number of
19 those reservists were your personnel who were thrown out from the Ilijas
20 Police Station, and their intention was to capture the check-points in
21 Vogosca. Actually, this is quite incorrect. There were about 30 of
22 them. They were not a substantial military force. And on the day when
23 the Serbs took -- occupied the local security station in Ilijas, Croats
24 and Muslims withdrew to Srednje. You know where that is. And they
25 remained there for four or five days, and after that, they were pushed
1 back from the Srednje substation. Thus, there can be no talk of police
2 reserve forces, Croats and Bosniaks, from Ilijas were going to create any
3 kind of incident in the Vogosca municipality area.
4 There's another important thing that you mention here, and that
5 is some kind of instruction as to conduct during an emergency situation.
6 What does Rajko Koprivica, the president of the Executive Board of the
7 Vogosca Municipality, have anything to do with
8 General Vojislav Djurdjevac, who is the commander of some military
9 district, for this one to be issuing him some kind of instruction as to
10 how to behave in some kind of emergency situation? This would indicate
11 that you had already -- had a worked-out scenario of taking power, and
12 how you would ethnically cleanse Ilijas and Vogosca and all the other
14 Q. Sir, I would like you to notice here that Krajisnik says:
15 "God forbid that anyone is killed."
16 Can you please look at that. This is page 6 in the Serbian:
17 "God forbid that anybody should get killed. You are a wise man.
18 You should do everything in a calm manner."
19 I don't need to read that whole thing.
20 Can we look at page 7 in the Serbian and then page 8 in the
21 Serbian. The English page is all right.
22 You can see that Krajisnik is trying to calm things down:
23 "You are wise. You should try to preserve peace at all costs."
24 And then he asks:
25 "On what grounds did you call Commander Crnogorac and threaten
1 him, even though you're a civilian and he's a military officer?"
2 A. Are we in private session?
3 JUDGE KWON: No, we are in public session.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can we move into private session,
6 [Private session]
11 Page 12600 redacted. Private session.
9 [Open session]
10 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we are now in open session, Mr. Karadzic.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would briefly like to call up
12 P2359 of the 4th of April, 1992. This is the day before the war broke
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. The day before the war broke out, Momcilo Krajisnik and
16 Jovan Tintor are speaking, and Krajisnik says:
17 "Where are you calling from?"
18 Tintor says:
19 "From the HQ."
20 And Tintor says:
21 "I hear you've been informed. Rajko has told me about that part.
22 They are getting ready up there. Reportedly, they are on the move
25 "Who's on the move?"
2 "Well, the Muslims from Kobilja Glava."
3 Krajisnik: "Yeah."
5 "They are on their way towards Grahoviste, towards Zuc, and the
6 situation is very intense. I think a conflict will break out up there."
7 Can we go to the following page both in B/C/S and in English,
9 Krajisnik says:
10 "Look, I've just spoken with Rajko."
11 Tintor: "Yes."
12 "I told him to inform this Momo Mandic for the police, you know."
14 Krajisnik says:
15 "Best man, we need to try everything to calm the situation down."
17 "Yes, Momo Mandic has been on the spot."
19 "That's the most important thing finally. The people do need to
20 organise themselves, but under no circumstances should we look for
21 trouble. It is very important to keep peace, you know."
23 But can you see how much effort the Serbian effort put in from
24 the very top? Krajisnik was the president of the Assembly to keep the
1 A. Based on what I've been through and what I've experienced, I
2 really cannot agree with your assertion.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This document has already been
4 admitted, so we will not tender it.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. You called this commander, Crnogorac, and then Djurdjevac. The
7 general called you, personally. This is described in paragraph 67 from
8 your statement from 2007, where you say that he asked you why -- he says:
9 "An hour after that, General Djurdjevac called me personally. He
10 was Crnogorac's commander. He asked me, why did I threaten his commander
11 in Semizovac. I answered that I would have threatened him, too, had he
12 been doing the same thing that Crnogorac was doing. I also told him that
13 I don't consider the JNA to be my army anymore. He called me an
14 anti-Yugoslav and a Mujahedin, and said that he would very quickly have
15 to start dealing with us."
16 And so on and so forth.
17 Thus, you interfered in the defence preparations of the
18 Yugoslav People's Army, which at the time was the only legitimate
19 military force in Bosnia; is that correct?
20 A. No, I disagree with you on all issues.
21 Q. No, you didn't interfere, or it wasn't legitimate?
22 A. I did not interfere. And the weapons that we are talking about
23 were the weapons of the Territorial Defence, so it wasn't the weapons of
24 the JNA that we're talking about. The JNA most probably at that point in
25 time was still a legitimate military power in Bosnia and Herzegovina, for
1 another two weeks, perhaps, after that, but none of the Bosniaks or the
2 Croats considered them as their own. They believed it to be the
3 Serbo-Chetnik army, which ultimately that's exactly what it turned out to
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. In 71 --
6 JUDGE KWON: It's time to adjourn.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just one question, please.
8 If it is not in this form in the amalgamated statement, I'd like
9 to tender paragraph 67 and also 71.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. I'm going to read it out to you now:
12 "I had information that Rajko Koprivica, Momo Krajisnik, Tintor
13 and Mirko Krajisnik were meeting at [indiscernible], Kotonje."
14 Kotonje was a town with a majority Muslim population?
15 A. No, there wasn't a Muslim majority. There's quite a few Serbs
16 there as well.
17 Q. I continue:
18 "Mirko Krajisnik also did business with Tintor in Vogosca. I saw
19 that group, including Krajisnik, once or twice. One of the waiters there
20 was one of my informants. He was a Serb, because not a single Muslim
21 could be employed there."
22 So you are saying that Krajisnik and Tintor were best men at each
23 other's weddings? And you say that -- and you said that you did not have
24 the right to have the president of the Parliament followed, but now we
25 see that that was the case?
1 A. You have construed all of this, and it's not true. I am not
2 aware of the fact that these two gentlemen were best men at each other's
3 weddings, nor do I know anything about that. That Krajisnik and Tintor
4 were involved in smuggling and things like that is a generally-known
5 fact. It is true that I had a man working there who sent information to
6 me, yes, that's no secret, and I stated that, yes, he was a Serb, but he
7 reported to me personally, saying what was going on there.
8 Q. Thank you. Do you not say here that they were involved in
9 smuggling? You say that they were involved in business. Do you have any
10 kind of judgement stating that they were smugglers?
11 A. Not for Mirko Krajisnik, but for Momcilo Krajisnik and you, yes.
12 The two of you were found guilty of crime, and you were convicted.
13 Q. I was acquitted as well, sir. Don't you know that? And all of
14 that is slander, and it's part of our political life, isn't it?
15 JUDGE KWON: That will be it for today. We'll adjourn.
16 But I wanted to put it on the record I would like to thank the
17 Trial Chamber in the Tolimir case, which has kindly moved its hearing to
18 Courtroom II so that we could have an extended sitting today.
19 Tomorrow, 9.00.
20 [The witness stands down]
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.33 p.m.,
22 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 1st day of March,
23 2011, at 9.00 a.m.