1 Thursday, 3 March 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everyone.
7 Good morning, Mr. Music. If you could take the solemn
8 declaration, please.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I shall
10 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
11 WITNESS: MEHMED MUSIC
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Please be seated. Yes, Mr. Hayden.
14 MR. HAYDEN: Thank you, Mr. President, good morning, good
15 morning, Your Honours.
16 Examination by Mr. Hayden:
17 Q. Good morning, Mr. Music. If you could tell the Court your full
18 name, please, sir.
19 A. My name is Mehmed Music.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please
21 be asked to speak into the microphone, thank you.
22 MR. HAYDEN:
23 Q. Mr. Music, if you could move yourself forward towards the
24 microphone, please, to assist the interpreters.
25 A. My name is Mehmed Music.
1 Q. Thank you. If I can have 65 ter 90229, please, Mr. Registrar.
2 Mr. Music, what you'll see on the screen in front of you is a
3 statement that was prepared by the Office of the Prosecutor that brought
4 together the evidence you have previously provided to the Prosecution, to
5 the Bosnian authorities, and to the Trial Chambers in the
6 Slobodan Milosevic and Momcilo Krajisnik cases. Can you confirm that
7 when you arrived in The Hague on Sunday, that an interpreter from the
8 Prosecution read that statement to you?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And after you made several corrections, can you confirm that you
11 signed that statement on Monday?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And looking at the statement in front of you, is that your
14 signature you see at the bottom of the page?
15 A. Yes, it is.
16 Q. There are two parts of your statement, Mr. Music, that I wish to
17 clarify with you now. The first concerns the weapons or arms that were
18 held by persons in Musici village prior to the takeover on 20 May, and
19 for those in the courtroom I'm referring to paragraphs 15, 22, 25 and 31
20 of the statement. I'd just like to clarify this part of your evidence.
21 You say in your statement that people in your village had hunting rifles.
22 First, did you, in your household, have a hunting rifle or hunting
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did other persons, other households in the village that you knew
1 of have what you describe as hunting rifles?
2 A. Yes. Since my uncles, both of them are deceased, both of them
3 got killed on that day, one of them had a weapon. He was a hunter and
4 his younger son, too, who was killed in Lukavica.
5 Q. You say that there were approximately 35 households in Musici.
6 Are you able to estimate of those 35 households, how many had hunting
8 A. Well, we had three hunting rifles, and we had four police
9 reservists who were on the reserve police force before the war as well.
10 For quite a few years, five or six perhaps.
11 Q. When you refer to hunting rifles, Mr. Music, do you consider
12 hunting rifles as automatic weapons?
13 A. No.
14 Q. And were there any automatic weapons in the village?
15 A. As I've already explained, the police had four Kalashnikovs.
16 Q. Thank you. Finally, in your statement, you refer to an
17 interrogation which occurred at the municipal building garage. This is
18 in paragraph 47. And you said that they were particularly interested in
19 the Browning that was left in the village. First, am I right in saying
20 that a Browning is a machine-gun, Mr. Music?
21 A. It was a Browning, but I hadn't seen it myself. As people were
22 withdrawing, those who wanted to withdraw via Mount Igman, they brought
23 that, say, about 300 metres away from my house in the woods, but I was
24 questioned about that five times, mistreated and so on.
25 Q. Just to focus on this Browning that you later heard was in the
1 village, do you know who obtained that Browning?
2 A. Well, listen, it came from Binjezevo because people were
3 withdrawing from Binjezevo, Mostar Raskrsce, Mesevici, it came from the
4 police warehouse that was in Gladno Polje, that is to say between
5 Mostar Raskrsce and Rakovica.
6 Q. And other than that one Browning, was there any other machine-gun
7 or heavy weaponry in the village?
8 A. We had a machine-gun that was brought by the late Cedo Domuz, who
9 was police commander at Mount Igman. Thanks to him perhaps, the people
10 who did survive survived because the reserve police force and part of the
11 police who were regular police and who were in the area of Tarcin and
12 Pazarici, well, they went out to Mount Igman so thanks to them Igman was
14 Q. Let's just focus on this one machine-gun, Mr. Music. Do you know
15 when it was obtained approximately?
16 A. Well, listen, I remember in Kovacevici, when my late
17 brother-in-law came to see me on the 8th of May, 1992, and Kovacevici was
18 attacked on the 7th of May 1992, he came, and this is what he said to me,
19 Father-in-law, this is not good. My brother was wounded last night and
20 also a neighbour, Vatric. Let your daughters go. My two daughters were
21 with me: Alma Music, born in 1973; and Ajla -- no, not Ajla, Amela, who
22 was born on the 1st of November, 1979. They came -- I mean
23 Cosic, Remzija came and Kadric, Dino, he was his best friend, best man at
24 his wedding. They took my daughters to Hadzici. Somebody organised
25 buses for the women and children to leave, so people were leaving on the
1 7th, 8th and 9th. Afterwards, no one could leave Hadzici. As for the
2 Browning, it arrived between the 8th and 11th. Please don't take my word
3 for the date because the 11th of May 1992, was the day when people were
4 executed; that is to say, 12 Bosniaks and two Croats.
5 Q. And Mr. Music, do you remember the condition of that machine-gun?
6 A. It was from that other war, a very old one. It was among the old
7 weaponry that was kept. As I've already said, in Gladno Polje between
8 Rakovica and Mostar Raskrsce. Since Dzevad Music, my relative, was on
9 the reserve police force and the late Cedo Domuz as well and yet another
10 member of the police, the pre-war police, they came to see us, to see how
11 we were doing, whether we were hanging on, whether we were guarding the
12 village from Blazuj. As I've already said in my statement, already in
13 1991, paramilitaries arrived in Blazuj, Chetniks from Serbia and
14 Montenegro. As I've already described --
15 Q. Mr. Music --
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. If I can just stop you there. I can assure you that everyone in
18 the courtroom has your statement, and that will form part of your
19 evidence, so if you could just concentrate on the specific questions in
20 the assurance that your evidence is contained within this statement. The
21 second part of your statement that I just wish to briefly clarify
22 concerns your detention at the Hadzici sports and cultural centre. I'm
23 referring to paragraph 57. And you say that on the second day of Bajram,
24 Serb paramilitaries came to that centre.
25 In your statement you describe them as Arkan's men. In
1 statements you gave to Bosnian authorities in 2004 and 2005, you describe
2 them as Seselj's men. Are you able to tell the Court how that
3 discrepancy arises?
4 A. Well, you see, they introduced themselves as Seselj's men.
5 However, those who were guarding us said that they were Arkan's men.
6 That is quite unclear to me what the truth is.
7 Q. Thank you. Aside from those two clarifications, Mr. Music, can
8 you confirm that the contents of this statement are accurate?
9 A. Yes, fully.
10 Q. And if I was to ask you today to describe the same events, you
11 would provide the same information; is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. HAYDEN: I ask that this statement be admitted into evidence,
14 Mr. President.
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
16 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P2403, Your Honours.
17 MR. HAYDEN: Mr. Music I'm now going to read a brief summary of
18 your evidence for the benefit of the public following this trial.
19 In 1992, Mr. Mehmed Music was living in Musici, a settlement of
20 35 Muslim households next to the village of Usivak. Beginning in April
21 1992, local Serb leaders began to ask Muslims in Musici to surrender
22 their weapons. These demands intensified in May when, after the capture
23 of Kovacevici on 11 May, Serb forces began to shoot at Musici. The
24 village was shelled from 15 May. On 17 or 18 May, local Serb leaders
25 again demanded that the Muslims surrender, telling them, "This is Serb
1 land." Intense shelling resumed until the 20th of May when a Serb force
2 of between 50 and 60 men took over the village by force, aided by two
3 Praga tanks. Three Muslim men were killed and the witness and 13 others
4 were detained.
5 For five and a half months, starting from 20 May 1992, Mr. Music
6 was detained at seven different locations, including the garage of the
7 Hadzici municipal building, the Hadzici sports and cultural centre, the
8 Slavisa Vajner Cica barracks at Lukavica, the Kula prison and Planjo's
9 house in Svrake, each of these locations listed in schedule C of the
10 indictment in this case.
11 Over this five and a half month period, Mr. Music was abused,
12 beaten and humiliated, and, in turn, observed the ill treatment and
13 beatings of other Muslim detainees. For example, while being detained in
14 the garage at the Hadzici municipal building in May, Mr. Music and others
15 were forced to load ammunition at a weapons storage facility and were
16 barely fed. At the Hadzici sports and cultural centre, Serb
17 paramilitaries forced detainees to sing Chetnik songs, detainees were
18 chased and beaten, and in one instance, one detainee was forced to place
19 his mouth on another man's penis.
20 During his detention at barracks in Lukavica, Mr. Music was one
21 of 48 men who were called out of a room. Those 48 men were forced to run
22 a gauntlet of beatings to a room where three Serb military officers
23 waited for them at a desk. When it transpired that Mr. Music had
24 mistakenly responded to the call, he was returned. However, Mr. Music
25 states that the 47 other men, which included his own brother,
1 Miralem Music, were never seen again. He believes they were targeted
2 because they had previously worked for the JNA in some capacity.
3 Mr. Music was subject to several failed exchange attempts. On
4 one occasion, the exchange failed because the Serb side wanted to
5 exchange civilians in what was meant to be a one-for-one prisoner
6 exchange. During these failed attempts, Mr. Music was again detained at
7 the sports hall in Hadzici, this time along with 500 others, the majority
8 of which were women, children and elderly. Mr. Music was finally
9 exchanged on 5 November 1992.
10 Q. Mr. Music, there are two areas I wish to further briefly explore
11 with you. In paragraph 15 of your statement and you're talking here
12 about activities prior to the takeover of your village, you state:
13 "I think that the main command for the area was in Todorovic's
15 And you're referring to Gavro Todorovic. Do you know if
16 Mr. Todorovic was a member of any political party?
17 A. He belonged to the SDS.
18 Q. And how do you know this?
19 A. Well, you see, I know that for several reasons, because I was
20 following the accused, I cannot refer to him as a gentleman, for me he is
21 a criminal, when he came to Raco -- Ratko, well, the main mentor in
22 Hadzici was the church, that was headed by Milan Lucic. Drago Milosevic,
23 who was the director of Ingrap, then Aco Lubura, unfortunately I was so
24 surprised to see that even a teacher could turn out to be like that, also
25 Ratko Radic, where these meetings were organised, because the said
1 accused came to Hadzici, about 15 times, as far as I know, because I have
2 one of my fields there where they met, it's about 60 metres away from
3 there as the crow flies, so I had the opportunity of seeing the accused
4 servicing his car at Ratko Radic's. He had it painted. This was just a
5 trick so that people would not get suspicious that he was coming for that
6 other reason. Ratko Radic was also president of the municipality at the
7 time, and they were the ones who were in decision-making positions.
8 Whatever they organised was carried out.
9 Q. And Mr. Music, sorry if I can just focus you on Mr. Todorovic and
10 how you know that he was a member of the SDS, Mr. Todorovic from your
12 A. Well, you see, since we were neighbours, we visited each other on
13 different -- on the occasion of different holidays. He came to me for
14 Bajram and I visited him when they had their holidays. Until then, I did
15 not distinguish between people, Serbs, Croats, Muslims, Roma, everybody
16 was the same to me. I viewed people individually, not as criminals.
17 However, unfortunately, it was the 2nd or 3rd of August 1991, Meho is my
18 nickname, my real name is Mehmed, and that actually saved my life in
19 Lukavica. He said, Meho, well, you know, we had this joint cistern. The
20 Serbs and us shared it. He said, Don't go up there. And I said, Why?
21 And he said, Serbs were up there. And they were up there. They were
22 walking around there. It is because above Pusara, Usivak, Genge [phoen],
23 in a pine wood, that is where they had their command. We found it when
24 we entered Hadzici on the 6th of March, 1992. They had between 35 and 40
25 beds there, double bunk beds. They brought some camp inmates there to
1 work for them, to dig trenches, dugouts, whatever. However, I only had
2 my shed left. Everything else they had burned down so there were only
3 two houses that remained. In the meantime, one of them had burned down
4 just before the night when we came in. So I know because of that, Gavro
5 told me. I knew everything, I knew hardly -- there was hardly any
6 neighbour who was not a member of the SDS.
7 Q. Thank you. The second issue, Mr. Music, relates to testimony
8 you've given about your detention, again at the sports hall. This is the
9 first time you were detained there in June 1992. And you say at
10 paragraph 65 that you were told that you were going to be exchanged and
11 the men were all put on buses, four buses, in the evening, and you say
12 that they allowed the women, children and three men to stay behind. Can
13 you recall approximately how many of the people detained at the sports
14 hall at that time were women or children?
15 A. Well, you see, there were 283 of us camp inmates. I cannot tell
16 you about women and children because women and children came on that day
17 when they were clearing the compound in this hamlet called Kucice and
18 then everybody, women, children, 90 year old men, I mean they did not ask
19 any questions, they were not human beings, they were animals. I mean,
20 the way they behaved, if I tell you that a person did not have his legs,
21 can you imagine what had happened? So three buses remained parked in
22 front of the sports hall and we went in. Before leaving, the people
23 started embracing those guards and they were pleased to be going for an
24 exchange. They said you're going to be Kobiljaca, Kiseljak, and I sort
25 of thought, Oh, you poor fools, how can you be so happy? There is no way
1 they are going to let us go because if they do let us go they are going
2 to have 282 persons against them. That was not in their interests.
3 Their only interest was for them to survive, nobody mattered. Nobody
4 else mattered, Croats, Roma, nobody. It was only important for them to
5 have all Serbs in one state. This never came to be, and it never will
7 Then we went opposite the police -- or rather the post office,
8 that's where the municipality of Hadzici was. Four men walked into my
9 bus. Believe me they smelled so bad that they didn't have any
10 opportunity to bathe. They didn't give us water, anything. They would
11 give us a single bottle of water, 48 men. There was no air. There was
12 this metal door and there was hardly any air. When it would rain, we
13 would take off our T-shirts and we would try to wipe our bodies. They
14 took me prisoner when I was wearing boots, you see, so I was so
15 embarrassed I couldn't take off those boots, and I asked them whether
16 they would let me go and wash my feet and they said, No way, "balija,"
17 you're not going to need that and all that was done by the locals, it was
18 done by the police, you see.
19 Q. I'm very sorry to interrupt you, sir. I must remind you that
20 your evidence is before the Judges in the form of this statement, they do
21 have it and now that it's been admitted into evidence, we'll read that.
22 It's difficult that you can't retell your story in total today but as we
23 discussed prior to your testimony, that's a function of this Court. So
24 I appreciate your understanding of that.
25 Mr. President, I have no further questions for this witness.
1 There are just four associated exhibits, two of those have already been
2 admitted since the filing of the notification. That's 65 ter 01449,
3 which is now P2328, and 65 ter 01439, which is P2298.
4 The other two are yet to be admitted.
5 JUDGE KWON: Which are photograph and map?
6 MR. HAYDEN: That's right.
7 JUDGE KWON: Those will be admitted. Let's give the numbers.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. 65 ter 01440 will be
9 Exhibit P2404, and 65 ter 20798 will be Exhibit P2405.
10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
11 Mr. Music, you will be further asked by Mr. Karadzic, who is
12 entitled to cross-examine your evidence.
13 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
14 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Robinson.
16 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. If I could just note for the
17 record that we were informed by the Prosecution that this witness had
18 testified in four separate trials in Bosnia, two in the State Court of
19 Bosnia for the cases of Rade Veselinovic and Wardens Lalovic and
20 Skijevic [phoen] and two instances in the Cantonal Court in Sarajevo for
21 Nemanja Jovicic, Momir Covic and Vlastimir Pusara, and also another case
22 involving Boro Krsmanovic. And we don't have any of those transcripts,
23 and, again, if we receive them and they contain something important, we
24 will let you know. Thank you.
25 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Good morning to
3 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
4 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Music.
5 A. Good morning. Please do not refer to me as mister. In your eyes
6 I'm a "balija."
7 Q. Did you ever hear me using the word "balija?"
8 A. I have heard quite a few of your lies.
9 Q. Did you ever hear me use the word "balija?"
10 A. I had been humiliated by the people under you.
11 Q. The only superior entity to me was God and he never referred to
12 you as "balija."
13 A. You don't believe in God.
14 Q. Let's leave this subject. I'm going to refer to you as mister
15 but you can consider yourself whatever you wish. In your village, you
16 organised patrols and guards.
17 A. We organised patrols and guard duty because the paramilitary
18 formations, the Chetniks who had beer were there. You can't have a
19 proper soldier who is between 35 and 50 years of age.
20 Q. Please, in order for us not to stay here for a whole week, could
21 you kindly answer my questions with a yes or a no whenever possible?
22 I wanted to ask you this: You said that -- shall I call up your
23 statement that you gave in 2002 in order to remind you?
24 A. If necessary, I can be at your disposal for five days.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now, can we have 65 ter 9153.
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Today, on page 5, line 13 and onwards, you said that in 1991,
3 Chetniks came to your area. Was there in 1991 at least some semblance of
4 authorities in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
5 A. Yes. There were Serb authorities.
6 Q. Mr. Izetbegovic used to declare himself a Serb but he wasn't a
7 Serb. Was he in power in 1991?
8 A. Well, you know when the referendum and everything else took
9 place. He was a gentleman and I'm honoured to have had him as a
11 Q. Can we now look at page 2. Today you said that Chetniks came.
12 However, in this statement, you said that way back in August 1991, you
13 noticed that reservists had arrived. Now, look at page 2, please, after
14 the words "Coca-Cola":
15 "Before the beginning of the war in our region, already in August
16 1991, I noticed that reservists had arrived," and so on and so forth.
17 Let's clarify this right now. When you say Chetniks, were you
18 referring to a particular formation or were you referring to the Serbs in
20 A. No. There were quite a few honest Serbs, and vice versa, there
21 are some people of good standing in my nation as well, who did not
22 deserve to be called names.
23 Q. Now, tell me who came in 1991? Was it the Chetniks or the JNA
25 A. I claim that those were Chetniks dressed in JNA uniforms. It was
1 not the JNA. That was the Serbian army, and I really regret to have
2 served in the army in Nis which apparently is in another state.
3 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Music, we are hearing you through
4 interpretation. The interpreters' interpretation. If you could put a
5 pause before you start answering the question. Thank you very much.
6 Yes, please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. In this 2002 statement of yours, you did not say that those were
10 Chetniks but, rather, that reservists came, and you also say that they
11 did not behave as the JNA army, and you say that you were afraid of their
12 incursion into the village overnight, the villagers posted guards during
13 the night. Now, let's try to make this more precise. You say that in
14 August of 1991, it was not the JNA reservists who came but rather that
15 they were Chetniks. You say here that they were actually reservists but
16 that you did not like their behaviour. Was there any state authority in
17 power in Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1991, and was this occurrence the subject
18 of an investigation? Could that be considered a major event, the arrival
19 of Chetniks in Hadzici?
20 A. As I already told you a minute ago, I can tell you with full
21 responsibility that towards the end of August, not the beginning of
22 August, between 30th of August and the 6th of September, because that's
23 the time when my daughters had their academic year starting, we saw a man
24 with an automatic rifle, he had a pistol, and he was entering and mapping
25 something on the map. So he was marking the main elevations where --
1 which were later used for Praga and mortar emplacements. I was observing
2 all of this through my binoculars because we have about 60 acres of land,
3 and a few houses there. So there is less than 500 metres to Radic's
4 house where you held meetings.
5 Q. Mr. Music, we only have two hours for this cross-examination.
6 I don't want to detain you any longer, and please focus. I'm going, on
7 the other hand, to skip a number of questions. You said here in your
8 1997 statement, as follows:
9 "At the beginning of the year, we organised patrols in order to
10 protect our women and children. Nobody did us any harm but those people
11 were getting drunk and we could hear them singing Chetnik songs."
12 If you would like, I could call up this statement of yours.
13 A. What you quoted is correct.
14 Q. Thank you. Now, briefly, what do you consider to be Chetnik
16 A. Well, look, you know when Ravno in Herzegovina was razed to the
17 ground that's when the war in Herzegovina started and they were singing
18 the village of Ravno would be flattened. They said, Kill "balija," they
19 swore at "balija." So this was less than 100 metres, as the crow flies,
20 from my property. We could hear people getting drunk on cheap brandy and
21 then they became brave and started firing.
22 Q. Do you know that at that time, nearly all the Muslims, generals,
23 colonels, lieutenant-generals, and majors remained in the JNA? We had
24 Vehbija Karic, the commander of the 2nd District, and that
25 Enver Hadzihasanovic commanded a tank brigade; in other words, the
1 Muslims were still in the JNA at the time. Nevertheless, you claim that
2 this was not the JNA but the Chetniks; is that correct?
3 A. Look, you are full of lies. Let me deny what you said. The son
4 of my brother-in-law was a non-commissioned officer in the
5 Slavisa Vajner Cica barracks. I'm not going to tell you the name of the
6 officers who told our young men, children, The war is in the offing, try
7 to get out as -- in any way you can. So sometime in September, he left.
8 He even risked being sanctioned, but he left nonetheless.
9 Q. Thank you. We have no time to go into details. Now, tell me, in
10 your amalgamated statement, on page 4, paragraph 15, you say, and I have
11 to read it in English because the interpreters will translate this
12 better. So towards the end of paragraph 15:
13 [In English] "There were about 35 of us who had organised our
14 search to patrol and we continued guarding the houses. We had only our
15 own weapons, which were just our old hunting weapons. We had no military
17 [Interpretation] Who was your commander?
18 A. Commander? Omer Alic was the commander.
19 Q. Thank you. Further on, in paragraph 31, of your statement, on
20 page 6, I have to read it again in English:
21 [In English] "Chetniks came into Musici from all sides. They
22 were supported by Pragas. We had two or three hunting guns, perhaps
23 somebody had a pistol, that's all."
24 [Interpretation] This is the weapons that you possessed; is that
1 A. Well, look, you said the 28th of May. That's not correct. That
2 was the 20th of May. I know when my uncles were killed, and I know when
3 I was picked up. So don't twist the facts and tell lies.
4 Q. I read out 20th.
5 A. But you said the 28th.
6 Q. Very well. Now, let's look at your 1995 statement, which is
7 65 ter 8978, pages 2, both in the English and the Serbian. You said:
8 "Through members of the reserve police force, we managed to
9 obtain some weapons in order to try and put up some resistance"; is that
11 A. In my previous testimony, I said that four of my relatives were
12 in the reserve police force, and then, between the 7th and 10th, the late
13 Cedo Domuz came, and you know very well that he was a true gentleman, a
14 commander, and his family is enjoying more rights than any Bosnian --
15 Bosniak officer.
16 Q. Thank you. It was not only the reserve police that had weapons,
17 but they also provided you with the weapons because you say here, through
18 members of the reserve police force, we managed to procure a number of
19 weapons. Is this what you said in 1995?
20 A. At that time, they brought one old M-53 submachine-gun. The late
21 Cedo Domuz gave us his own hand gun. He gave it to a relative of mine.
22 So that was his own gun. When we he were chased, and you will have an
23 opportunity to hear who it was who captured me, Rade Veselinovic was
24 chasing Selim Music, forcing him to run because he had lost this weapon.
25 They were firing at us from guns and Pragas in order to create mayhem in
1 the village because only women and children were left behind.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at your 2005
4 statement. I'm going to read out and if you disagree, we can call it up
5 on our screens. So that's page 3 in the Serbian and page 4 in the
6 English. Well, let's look at this paragraph. It's 1D3361. 1D3361.
7 Page 3 in Serbian and page 4 in English.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. And I'm going to read it out to you. You speak about hunting
10 rifles and carbines. Can you explain to the Trial Chamber, is a carbine
11 a hunting rifle which uses 7.9 millimetre ammunition just like M-48
13 A. I agree with you that it can be both a military and civilian.
14 Q. Thank you. And now you say:
15 "There were also members of the reserve police who had weapons
16 issued to them. Through members of the reserve policemen, we managed to
17 obtain some weapons."
18 So some weapons is definitely more than one piece of weapon, one
19 submachine-gun; is that correct?
20 A. Well, look, you are really going to extremes here. Whatever
21 I said here, I stand by it, and what were we able to do with our rifles
22 against Pragas and guns?
23 Q. Except for what you said, did you have any other weapons?
24 A. No. I'm not aware of any.
25 Q. In your statement, the same one, page 4 in the Serbian, and
1 English page 5, you say:
2 "They found a hand grenade on me and some ammunition, and they
3 confiscated it from me."
4 Is that how it was?
5 A. Yes, I agree with that.
6 Q. Earlier, you said that you didn't see that machine-gun but now in
7 the cross-examination, you said that the machine-gun did come to the
8 village after all; is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. After all the things that we said here, it seems that paragraphs
11 15 and 31 of your consolidated statement are not quite correct; is that
12 correct? It wasn't just two or three hunting rifles, there were hand
13 grenades, machine-guns and automatic weapons, too.
14 A. Well, if you continue like that, it will turn out that we also
15 had tanks and guns, cannon.
16 Q. And you said that a machine-gun was lost, that it wasn't hidden
17 in the village, and that you knew that, you stated that, it was a
18 Browning, it's a machine-gun.
19 A. Please believe me, I didn't see that, Your Honours, I guarantee
20 that with my life. I didn't see it.
21 Q. Did you know that it was hidden or that it was lost? What is
22 your position on that now?
23 A. I heard that people brought it to the woods, between Radic's
24 house and my field, Radic's house where you had the meetings. Nobody
25 from my village saw it, those who were withdrawing from the Raskrsce,
1 Mesevici, a part of Rakovica, people were fleeing to save their lives.
2 However, they kept ending up at Igman. I am working as the president of
3 the missing persons commission, and I was looking for 235 persons since
4 that time.
5 Q. Thank you. Unfortunately, I wish we had more time. We would
6 gladly discuss that as well. How did the Serbs react to your spying and
7 observing the behaviour of the Serbs in Hadzici, the Chetniks, as you
8 refer to them?
9 A. Once when we were on guard duty, we saw Rade Marilovic, that's my
10 neighbour, and another person called Rade Nesren. We stopped him near
11 the house of Gavro Todorovic. They were transporting weapons. This was
12 not being hidden at all. Because I don't know if you know that, I told
13 that to the Prosecutor. We were not working in the Coca-Cola. It was
14 hit by the shell. It was a guy called Mehmed Residovic. We were not
15 working, so we were just walking around, also Vasilije Kovac.
16 Q. All right, so let's leave that for another occasion. You said in
17 your consolidated statement, paragraph 8, that after the elections in
18 1991, I'm going to read it in English:
19 [In English] "After the 1991 elections, I used to go out into the
20 field and followed the movement of my Chetnik neighbours."
21 [Interpretation] You were not observing people who were coming
22 in. You were observing your Serbs, the neighbours, to whom you refer as
23 your Chetnik neighbours. How did they feel about you looking at what
24 they were doing through binoculars?
25 JUDGE KWON: Before you answer, Mr. Music, Mr. Hayden?
1 MR. HAYDEN: Hasn't been established that the Serb neighbours
2 knew they were being observed, and, therefore, couldn't possibly know how
3 they felt about it.
4 JUDGE KWON: I take it the witness would be able to answer the
5 question. Yes, Mr. Music?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, if you want me to go into
7 details, after that, in the month of September, but don't hold me to the
8 date, please, I saw below Igman a chopper landing in the fields and when
9 they were unloading boxes of ammunition, that was where the front line
10 was. So just like the Prosecutor said, they were not able to see me.
11 I was watching from the woods. I'm not so silly as to go into the
12 meadow. I used to be in the so-called JNA, it was the Serbian army, but
13 I was a corporal and I was in the reserve forces as well. Towards the
14 end we all had to return our uniforms, because us Muslims were no longer
15 required there. That much I want to say.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Sir, you have given 15 statements and testified that many times
18 so far, you didn't say that your neighbours, the Serbs, had a chopper in
19 1991 and were unloading anything. Are you talking about the
20 Yugoslav People's Army, which in 1991 was the legal, accepted force, it
21 co-operated with Izetbegovic, or are you speaking about your neighbours,
22 Serbs, who were flying around loading, unloading and so on and so forth?
23 A. As far as I was concerned, it wasn't the Yugoslav People's Army.
24 It was the Serbian army. I state that with full responsibility.
25 Q. Very well. Thank you. Can we now look at your statement from
1 1993. This is 65 ter 22205, page 2 in the English and the Serbian. We
2 can read it. We don't even have to call it up if you confirm it. You
4 "Informative talks with me were conducted by Mijatovic, Veka,
5 Rade Veselinovic and Zoran Gasevic. They were also interested in the
6 following questions, and in particular, in the Browning that remained
7 hidden in the village."
8 So you knew that it was hidden in the village, didn't you?
9 A. Well, why don't you give the full first and last names? You
10 appointed the people who were in the criminal investigations police:
11 Brane Mijatovic, called Veka, his nickname is Veka; Zoran Gasevic, son
12 Ratko, his father worked with me together for 15 years. Thanks to his
13 father, and you might have the opportunity to find all the things that
14 I said about that, thanks to his father, who knew that I had a large sum
15 of money but I didn't dare offer it to anyone, I stayed alive.
16 Q. I kindly ask you to stick to the questions in your answers. In
17 1991 -- sorry, in 1992, sometime in April, did you dig trenches in your
18 village, as it states in paragraph 16 of your consolidated statement?
19 A. We didn't dig trenches in the village. We had two false ones and
20 a proper one. This was in order to hold back people. We dug out the
21 trenches, some 200 or 300 metres from my house where the woods were so
22 that they could see them, and these were not proper, real trenches. We
23 would just walk up and down. It was a kind of deception, in the third
24 one. They kept shelling so much that they were knocking down the trees.
25 You did the same thing in Poljine but there was nobody there in the
2 Q. All right. Thank you. They were shelling? --
3 JUDGE KWON: After this answer, as indicated, we will take a
4 break for 15 minutes.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I ask the Trial Chamber to
6 review the decision again, not only because of the voluminous answers by
7 the witness but also in view of the 15 statements given by this witness
8 on various occasions? I would, based on that, kindly request more time.
9 JUDGE KWON: Speaking for myself, I'm not minded to give another
10 extension. We will discuss it. We will take a break for 15 minutes.
11 --- Break taken at 10.00 a.m.
12 --- On resuming at 10.18 a.m.
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Hayden?
14 MR. HAYDEN: There is a correction I need to make to the
15 associated exhibits. Photograph which was Exhibit P409 referred to in
16 paragraph 45 is, in fact, 65 ter 01438, and that has not been admitted.
17 I indicated before that that photograph had been previously admitted
18 under an exhibit number.
19 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Let's then give that a separate number.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P2406, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Music, when answering the question, please try
22 to answer directly and be concise as much as possible, please. Thank
24 Mr. Karadzic.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. In paragraph 19 to 21 of your consolidated statement, you
3 described the events in the village of Kovacevici. Is it correct that
4 you don't have a direct experience of these events?
5 A. I do have knowledge of them.
6 Q. Direct knowledge?
7 A. Yes, because this is where my daughter's husband, my son-in-law,
8 was killed, his brother, his nine nephews.
9 Q. And what was his name?
10 A. Redzo Cosic.
11 Q. Can we look at your statement from 1996? This is 1D3358.
12 1D3358. Serbian page 2, English page 3. Let's wait till it appears, and
13 there you say, and now I can emphasise this is not the beginning of the
14 paragraph, but the middle of it, "I can say that" --
15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters kindly ask the accused to let
16 us know where he's reading from.
17 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, unless you identify to us where --
18 from where you are reading, the interpreters find it -- would find it
19 very difficult to interpret.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm just going to find it now in
21 the Serbian. It's in the middle of the page, in the Serbian, "In my
22 previous statement ...," that's what it says. Let's see if we can see
23 it in the English as well. In the English, it should be page 3. In the
24 last third of the page in the English, in the middle, it says, "In my
25 earlier statement ..." In the English it begins with the words,
1 [In English] "I can now emphasise ..."
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. So:
4 "In my previous statement, I said that the attack on our village
5 of Musici ...," and so on and so forth, "and now I can emphasise that
6 before the attack on Musici, the attack on Kovacevici had taken place on
7 the 10th or 11th of May of 1992 on which occasion there were many
8 casualties among the local people from this village. I was not present
9 on that occasion and I cannot say anything about those details."
10 Did you state this in 1996?
11 A. Yes. But since the late Suljo Kovacevic, who lost two sons on
12 that occasion, two brothers, and four nephews, was in the commission with
13 me after he left the camp in late October 1992, I was in the exchange
14 commission, I think you probably had time to look at that, and he told me
15 that in that operation, the person in command was Tihomir Glavas because
16 he was the chief of police at the time and there was this Crisis Staff,
17 so Slobodan Avlijas, judge, the judge, is the most involved in that
18 incident because he did what he did, and perhaps the Judges can give you
19 some more information about that information that I discovered in 2004.
20 He told me everything down to the last detail. He was brought in when
21 I was in the camp. I was transferred to the sports hall on the 25th,
22 Suljo was brought in on the 27th or the 28th, I'm not sure of the date
23 and --
24 Q. Thank you, thank you. But you never mentioned in any of your
25 previous statements that it was Tihomir Glavas and Judge Avlijas were in
1 charge of that attack. Was that some kind of legitimate raid?
2 A. Well, there was Tihomir Glavas, from the SDS, like
3 Nemanja Jovicic, Rade Veselinovic from Vojkovici, to Momo Ilic from
4 Blazuj. They executed them in front of the culture hall in Hadzici.
5 There were 12 Bosniaks, two Croats, and they carried out this genocide
6 against them twice.
7 Q. Were you there? Did you see that?
8 A. Probably they would have called me to see it.
9 Q. But you were not there and you didn't see that?
10 A. No.
11 Q. In paragraph 36 of the consolidated statement, you say that
12 during the alleged attack on your village of Musici, women and children,
13 including your wife, were together with you in the village; is that
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And do you stand by that statement?
17 A. Could you please clarify for me exactly what you mean?
18 Q. You say in paragraph 36, second sentence:
19 [In English] "Women and children, including my wife, stayed
21 [Interpretation] Do you stand by that?
22 A. Yes. But a number of the women and children.
23 Q. What about the rest of the women and children? What happened to
25 A. They left on May 8th, 1992, when buses were organised to go to
1 the liberated territory towards Pazarici, Starici, Konjic, and so on and
2 so forth.
3 Q. On the 8th of May, you evacuated most of the women and children
4 from the village; is that correct?
5 A. Yes, to prevent them from becoming casualties like the ones who
6 stayed behind.
7 Q. So who was a casualty before the 8th of May?
8 A. Well, we had the opportunity to see what Tintor was doing in
9 Svrake and Foca. You had two corps there were Montenegro, the
10 Niksic Corps was there.
11 Q. Yes, yes, we have enough now. I'm interested in what you know
12 and what you saw. You stated that in your statement of 2007, page 6,
13 towards the end, you say how you were interrogated, and you say:
14 "They were interested why we had sent the women and children
15 away. The Serbs wanted to know why you had sent the women and children
16 away. And they believed that you were preparing something"; is that
18 A. No.
19 Q. All right. They asked you, though, why you sent the women and
20 children away?
21 A. Yes, and I didn't know the answer to that question.
22 Q. Thank you. Can we now look at your statement 1D3360 from 2007,
23 page 4 in the Serbian, page 5 in the English. It says here, at the top:
24 "Everything was happening quickly and I already had no time to
25 think, and my wife asked me what I -- what did I think if I left -- sent
1 my kids with them; that is, with the daughter who was living in the
2 Hercegovacka Street. So there were buses organised for the elderly and
3 the children and they left for Pazaric and Tarcin."
4 What was it that was unfolding quickly before the 8th of May,
5 Mr. Music, so that you had to evacuate your family, the women and
6 children to Pazaric and Tarcin?
7 A. All right, I'm going to tell you. When my son-in-law told me
8 that his brother was wounded and that this neighbour of his, too, Vatric,
9 I went to the 12 Hercegovacka. There is a settlement called Kovacevici
10 behind the municipality and most of the Kovacevic families were settled
11 there, and returning from there across the bridge, I saw a colleague of
12 mine called Pandurevic who worked with me. I didn't have the opportunity
13 ever to say hello to him before that. His name was Bozidar Pandurevic.
14 He had a playground for table tennis, but you all don't need to hear this
15 from me. You know that better than I do. So he was walking on one side
16 and then as soon as he saw me, he crossed over to the other side without
17 greeting me, as if I was an alien or something.
18 Q. Thank you, thank you. Mr. Music, you sent your family, or,
19 rather, civilians away from your village before the events of Musici
20 because Musici happened on the 10th and 11th of May, whereas -- sorry,
21 Kovacevici was on the 10th and 11th of May.
22 A. Kovacevici, yes. But the first Kovacevici -- attack on
23 Kovacevici - let me correct you - was on the 7th of May.
24 Q. So you evacuated your family on time because you planned an armed
25 struggle. And from that point of view, the amalgamated statement is not
1 correct that your women and children stayed behind you in the village;
3 A. You are full of lies, let me put it that way. There were about
4 ten women and children left there. There is no reason for me to lie.
5 Q. But your daughters?
6 A. Daughters, yes. I stated that and I stand by that.
7 Q. In paragraph 22 of your consolidated statement, you say that you
8 stayed in the village and you refused the proposal to disarm, and that is
9 what the Serbs offered to you, and you mentioned as a reason for refusing
10 to disarm, this is what you say in paragraph 26:
11 [In English] "We did not want to surrender, because by that time
12 we had seen the surrender of people from Svrake on the TV and we knew
13 that would -- what would happen to us."
14 [Interpretation] That's what you said?
15 A. I'm sorry, may I explain why we sent our women and children out?
16 Q. No, no. We've dealt with that already.
17 A. I agree.
18 Q. Thank you. You've already said that. Did the Serbs ask for you
19 to surrender or to surrender your weapons?
20 A. To surrender and to surrender our weapons.
21 Q. Why didn't you talk about the surrender anywhere before? You
22 only talked about handing over weapons.
23 A. Well, in order to hand over weapons, we would have signed our
24 very own death warrant in that way.
25 Q. This amalgamated statement seems to be missing something, because
1 you said something different beforehand. Look at your statement of 2004,
2 65 ter 22213. 22213 is the 65 ter number. It is page 3 in Serbian, page
3 4 in English. Let us not wait. I'm going to read it out. This is what
4 you say:
5 "However, knowing what the fate of the Muslim population had been
6 in the territory of the village of Ahatovici, Svrake, as well as other
7 villages that had surrendered their weapons to the Serbs, we decided not
8 to hand over our weapons," and so on and so forth.
9 So it wasn't the Serbs -- that the Serbs were asking to you
10 surrender, they were asking you to surrender your weapons. And secondly,
11 you mentioned the village of Ahatovici; right?
12 A. Yes. Because I had some family there in Ahatovici, so I knew.
13 Q. How come you knew what the fate of Ahatovici was before May 1992
14 when the fighting in Ahatovici took place on the 29th of May 1992?
15 A. Well, look. We were following TV and radio and some people had
16 access to telephones as well, so we knew.
17 Q. Before the 20th of May, a television broadcast said that
18 Ahatovici would surrender weapons and that Serbs were fighting against
19 them, right, 10 days in advance?
20 A. Well, let me tell you. If you know about everything, why are you
21 asking me?
22 Q. Thank you. Did someone from the OTP or someone else suggest to
23 you that you get rid of Ahatovici in your amalgamated statement?
24 A. Never.
25 Q. Do you stand by that, namely, that Ahatovici and Svrake handed
1 over their weapons?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Thank you. Did you have a rank in the reserve force?
4 A. Yes, of a sergeant.
5 Q. In this organisation of yours, the Defence organisation of the
6 village, did you hold a rank there?
7 A. No. In case something happened, I was supposed to evacuate
8 civilians, women, children and the elderly.
9 Q. What about your house? Did it have an important role?
10 A. Well, women and children and everybody were hiding in my house
11 because my house had three walls, and about a metre away from the house
12 there was another wall. So if there were to be shelling, a shell could
13 not pierce three walls so that's why people were seeking shelter there
14 because my house is on the side, as it were, I mean, I had that house, it
15 was there before but it was razed to the ground.
16 Q. It was guarded as well, wasn't it?
17 A. Nobody guarded it. Had someone guarded it, believe me, nobody
18 would have barged into my house, or if I had weapons.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise to the interpreters
20 and to Judge Lattanzi because of this rush, but it is this threat of a
21 lack of time that makes me nervous.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Let us look at your consolidated statement, paragraph 33. Today,
24 you said that you were arrested when you were in the shed and that you
25 were wearing boots; right?
1 A. If you have everything in front of you, I describe that
2 extensively, that I went to Donji Hadzici. We heard that Kovacevici had
3 been set on fire, there was different information coming in. And since I
4 had cattle, I went to the shed so I was wearing boots because I was
5 walking through the woods, we didn't dare risk being seen by the
6 Chetniks. However, a sniper targeted us at Majdan, as you know, opposite
7 Radic's house. You were there several times. You know about all of
9 Q. Just tell us where you were arrested, in the shed, outside,
11 A. In my very own house. I went from the collection point where we
12 organised the guards, that is the house of my late uncle, Music, and my
13 brother-in-law was there having coffee. He arrived before me. You know
14 what a brother-in-law is. My sister-in-law's husband.
15 Q. As far as I know, Bosnians, Muslims and others do not enter
16 houses wearing boots and do not have coffee wearing boots; right?
17 A. Well, look, you are lying all the time. This is very extreme
18 what you're saying. Of course, I do not walk into the house wearing
19 boots but I had to wear something when I walked out of the house because
20 I prayed to the dear Allah, I would not allow anyone to enter my house
21 that way. You know that we pray five times a day and things like that.
22 I mean there is no reason for me he to explain all of that to you. But
23 when Tomo Kovac -- I mean, Tomo Elcic and Mile Elcic, when they took me
24 prisoner, I had to put some footwear on.
25 Q. And you chose boots?
1 A. Oh, my goodness, if I knew that I was going to be paraded, if
2 I was going to a party, I would have worn something different. If they
3 forced you to leave wearing a T-shirt, that would be it. They said that
4 they would take you away just so that they could loot your house. You
5 were not waging war, you were looting.
6 Q. Thank you. So you did not have any guards in front of yours
8 A. The guards were supposed to be opposite Usivak, 100 metres away.
9 The late Ismet Music was supposed to be standing guard. He was not fit
10 for the military, his eye sight was very poor. They set him on fire
11 alive in Mucibare [phoen] in June 1992.
12 Q. That is not contained in any one of your statements. Let us look
13 at your statements.
14 A. You'll see it later. Have a close look at my statements.
15 Q. All of you favoured witnesses of the Office of the Prosecutor of
16 Bosnia-Herzegovina and this Office of the Prosecutor, you're memory gets
17 better and better as time goes by. So let's have a look at this.
18 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, that's a totally unacceptable
19 statement on your part.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't have time. I would like to
21 ask the witness why he did not describe that kind of thing happening,
22 that a man was set on fire alive and he said that's going to happen
23 later. As time goes by he remembers more and more. All right. Let us
24 look at paragraph 33:
25 [In English] "I was sitting down and about to have a coffee when
1 two Chetniks came in: Elcic, Tomislav; Elcic, Milan. They were members
2 of the Serbian forces -- military police under the command of
3 Veselinovic, Rade and Pusara, Dragan. They were supposed to have been
4 guards at my house, but they must have [indiscernible] because I was very
5 surprised to see those two come in."
6 [Interpretation] For some reason, your house was supposed to be
7 guarded by guards who had not done their job, and these people just
8 barged into your house. Was your house some kind of headquarters or a
9 place where preparations were carried out for combat? Yes or no? Just
10 say yes or no. If it's no, just say so.
11 A. Well, look, I mean, you're really being very extreme. Why are
12 you in such a hurry? You're going to stay on here for a long time. God
13 willing, you're going to end up like your mentor, Milosevic, so what's
14 the hurry?
15 Q. I have no remarks in view of your hatred, sir. I'm just talking
16 about your answers that are too lengthy. So in paragraph 38 of your
17 consolidated statement, can we have the next page, please? There is what
18 you said:
19 [In English] "They brought other men from the settlement. Until
20 we were 14, including me, they lined us all up next to Music, Alija's
22 [Interpretation] Further down:
23 [In English] "It's there that I saw the dead bodies of
24 Music, Alija; Music, Dervis; and Music, Fadil. They were covered with
25 blankets, but I knew who they were from their shoes and clothes."
1 [Interpretation] Who killed these people who were covered with
2 the blanket? How did they lose their lives?
3 A. Well, they probably committed suicide. They were terrified of
4 you Chetniks. A hand grenade was thrown in from the other side, from
5 Radic's house, and further on, they were taken out towards Blazuj. So at
6 that moment my late uncle, Alija, Music, and Music, Dervis, a relative of
7 mine, and Fadil Music, they were there at that moment. Unfortunately,
8 they were executed in Lukavica. These two men were by the wall, one was
9 in one corner and the other one was in another corner. So one of them
10 was just grazed on the head by this shrapnel. Actually, Nijaz Music, my
11 cousin, was so terrified because this gunfire was there and they were
12 using fragmentation bullets, and that is prohibited. I mean they are not
13 human beings.
14 Q. Thank you. Thank you. You haven't said that before. Tell us
15 about these people, were they killed in combat or were they killed as
17 A. They were executed in Lukavica. What do you mean combat? They
18 went through the garage, and then in Lukavica on the 23rd in the morning,
19 they were taken away and executed.
20 Q. We are talking about Musici but these two as well, were they
21 killed in combat? Did they die in combat? Did they die in combat or
22 were they killed in a situation that had nothing to do with combat?
23 A. They did put up a fight until this old submachine-gun got stuck.
24 I told you that it was old weapons. And that was it. But if you have
25 50 well-armed men and Pragas --
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 22205. Could we have that
2 65 ter number? 22205, page 2 in Serbian and page 2 in English.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. So they used that submachine-gun while they could use it, while
5 they could use it to shoot, and then they were killed.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. This is what you say. It's towards the top in Serbian and
8 towards the top of the page in English as well, line 4 or 5. This is
9 what it says:
10 "I heard from other villagers that Alija, Dervis and Fadil Music
11 had been killed by the Chetniks because Nemanja Jovicic and
12 Marinko Djukanovic had thrown a hand grenade into a garage from which the
13 aforementioned three had been offering resistance."
14 So this description of the way in which these people lost their
15 lives, that is not contained in the amalgamated statement; right?
16 A. It is as you have stated.
17 Q. Thank you. Is this a different submachine-gun or the one that
18 was hidden in the forest?
19 A. Well, as for the forest, I've explained it to you once already.
20 You're not a child, not to be able to explain. No one saw it -- nobody
21 from the village. There is a difference between a Browning and a
22 submachine-gun. Do not pretend to be naive. You know better than that.
23 Q. Thank you. After the fighting in your village, as you say in
24 paragraph 43 of your amalgamated statement, together with the other
25 fighters, you were taken prisoner and taken to Hadzici. You were locked
1 up in a school there and you only spent ten minutes there.
2 A. It wasn't ten minutes. It was about half an hour. And it seemed
3 like an eternity to me. We were supposed to get killed there. Because
4 they had a police unit there in that school and that's what I found out
5 only later.
6 Q. Thank you. Can we look at this same document, in Serbian page 2,
7 and as for English, please go back to page 2. There is a reference to
8 Selim Music, Izil Behari [phoen], Idriz and Durmirsevic [phoen], so in
9 the English version we will be able to find it. This is what it says:
10 "Those of us who had been captured were escorted to the primary
11 school in Hadzici. Miljenko and his brother Nedriko [phoen] Milosevic
12 guarded us at the school. Ten minutes later, we were taken to the garage
13 of the Hadzici Municipal Assembly. It's between the second and the third
14 of the page in Serbian, and in English it's probably -- well, any way,
15 you spent ten minutes there.
16 A. You are lying. I said that it was half an hour, and it seemed
17 like an eternity to me. And let me explain this. They were not cuddling
18 us over there, they started tearing these curtains like the one that you
19 see over there and they were swearing at us, cursing our "balija"
20 mothers, Ilija -- Alija can -- wants a state, right? And there was this
21 child who hadn't even done his military service by then. He fainted
22 because he saw what they were doing.
23 Q. Here we are restricting ourselves only to the amounts of time you
24 spent at the school.
25 A. About half an hour.
1 Q. In the 1993 statement, you said about ten minutes. Now, let's
2 see what happened next after this ten minutes or half an hour as stated
3 in your amalgamated statement. You were taken to the garage of the
4 Hadzici municipal building where you were interrogated and where nobody
5 mistreated you; is that correct?
6 A. Yes, but you didn't mention the two people that we found there.
7 Q. All right. After six days in the garage you were transferred at
8 the school centre in Hadzici where there were about 60 men and one woman;
9 is that correct?
10 A. Yes, it is.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 A. That woman spent four years in prison with your female mentor,
13 Radojka Pandurevic. She was with you in the SDS and on many occasions,
14 since I worked at Coca-Cola factory for 10 or 15 hours a day. I used to
15 see her car and her husband because she was working at Mostarska and
17 Q. We'll get back to this. Now, let's see, you said, first of all,
18 that they were Arkan's men and then you said that they were Seselj's men.
19 You said that they introduced themselves as Seselj's men and somebody
20 else told you that they were Arkan's men; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Thank you. You actually don't know who these people were; is
23 that right?
24 A. I saw them as aggressors. I didn't care whether they were
25 Arkan's or Seselj's men. They were the same scum of the earth.
1 Q. Then in paragraph 58 of your amalgamated statement, you talk
2 about alleged maltreatment so we can look at paragraph 58:
3 [In English] "I recognised her ..."
4 [No interpretation]
5 [In English] "I saw her take the pants off one man and saw her
6 tell another man to suck the first man's sexual organ. They had to do
8 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Just a second.
9 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
10 JUDGE KWON: Let us proceed.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. In order to refresh your memory, can I tell you what you stated
13 in 1993 when your memory of this dramatic event was much better? Now,
14 let's look whether you said the same thing in 1993. The transcript is
15 wrong. When you gave your first statement in 1993, and it only makes
16 sense that at that time, your memory was better, you never described this
17 dramatic event; right?
18 A. I can write two whole books. I do not wish to remember this very
20 Q. You have two statements, the first one almost immediately, 1993,
21 this dramatic and drastic event was not described by you, was it?
22 A. Listen, there were some things that made me embarrassed and
23 I kept quiet about them, and I would never include them in my statements
24 so don't be surprised because the things that you do was something that
25 I was not always able to mention.
1 Q. Now, look at paragraph 59 of your amalgamated statement:
2 [In English] " I did not mention this incident in my first
3 statement because these men, a neighbour of mine, was still alive. I was
4 worried about that it would look like if I -- what it would look like if
5 I speak about it."
6 [Interpretation] Not now, again, you -- you did not give us his
7 name actually, and you didn't think it was important at the time.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did anyone suggest to you to insert this statement and to give
10 this explanation and who did that?
11 A. I was dictated by my clear conscience because I still meet this
12 person occasionally. I might be more embarrassed about the whole thing
13 than he is.
14 Q. Witness, do you know that several things are being repeated in
15 the statements given by many statements, it seems that from Abu Ghraib
16 detention to Hadzici, there is always someone who would like to play with
17 people's genitalia. How is it possible that you're all telling one and
18 the same story?
19 A. I'm not surprised that your lies. I remember what you said in
20 1991 at the Assembly meeting.
21 Q. Let's leave this aside. You are describing a drastic scene in
22 your consolidated statement and you are not mentioning it in 1993.
23 A. I made a solemn declaration here and I stand by everything
24 I stated.
25 Q. Thank you. After you -- your stay in the sports centre, you and
1 the other imprisoned combatants were moved to Lukavica, whereas the women
2 and children remained in Hadzici; correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. When you were taken prisoners, did the Serbs confiscate from you
5 all the valuables?
6 A. Money, gold, they also took our ID cards, maybe their plan was
7 when once they killed us we would not be identified.
8 Q. Now look what you say in paragraph 68 of your amalgamated
9 statement. The next page:
10 [In English] "We came in front of the gate to Kula prison."
11 [No interpretation]
12 [In English] "I had a watch on at the time. So I saw that it was
13 about midnight or 15 minutes before the midnight."
14 [Interpretation] Before you arrived in Kula, you had a watch?
15 A. Yes, but I kept it hidden.
16 Q. Thank you. After the sports centre in Hadzici, you were
17 transferred to Lukavica where allegedly you were beaten by men dressed
18 similarly to those at the sports hall in Hadzici; right?
19 A. Yes. Momo Mandic did not allow us to enter Kula but he ordered
20 us to be taken to Lukavica. They unloaded us in Lukavica where the gym
22 Q. Why wasn't this mentioned in any of your 15-odd statements?
23 A. Look, everything was happening so spontaneously, I actually never
24 believed that I would survive because I -- I'm the only member of my
25 family who had survived detention.
1 Q. Now, let us look at paragraph 86 of your amalgamated statement.
2 It's next page or the one after that:
3 [In English] "The ones who beat us now were wearing the same
4 gloves as those who had beat us in the sports hall. Their hands were
5 dirty, they carried big knives, and had beards," so on and so forth.
6 [Interpretation] Is this a description of the people who beat you
7 both in the sports centre in Hadzici and in Lukavica?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 A. And they had suffered enormous losses in Dobrinja, and due to
11 that, they would barge into the buses and say, Look at "balijas," they
12 have ammunition. I clearly remember that they burned cigarette on the
13 neck of Meho Isic, a neighbour of mine. My father-in-law, an elderly
14 man, was all covered in blood because he was beaten on the head.
15 Q. Let's stick to your statements. Now you said that regular
16 soldiers appeared and stopped these people; right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Let's move to the next paragraph:
19 [In English] "Regular JNA soldiers came in and told us to stop
20 singing and asked us who had told us to do it? They told us no one would
21 touch us any more. With this, the JNA soldiers brought us some food.
22 [Interpretation] You were singing something, or you had been
23 forced to sing, and but the soldier told you that you did not have to do
24 that, that no one must touch you and they brought you food.
25 A. Well, let's call it army but they were actually the Serbian army.
1 They were at the door and if he wanted to stop it, he would have stopped
3 Q. Is it what you said in this statement; is this correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And this happened towards the end of June 1992?
6 A. That happened on the 23rd of June. Forty-seven people's names
7 were called out, including myself, which makes it 48. So you are
8 skipping lots of things. Unlike you, I have enough time.
9 Q. You said that it was a rather hot day and that you had to take
10 off your T-shirts to wipe your sweat off.
11 A. That was while I was in the garage in Hadzici, but then, on the
12 23rd, we were forced to go to the toilet in the morning.
13 Q. Now we are talking about the weather. Was it hot on the 23rd of
14 June and on the following days, as you described?
15 A. I said you're skipping things. When we were taken prisoner
16 I said that that was the situation in the garage. I didn't describe the
17 situation in Lukavica as such.
18 Q. After 23rd of June, is it -- was it hot in Sarajevo? Are summers
19 hot in Sarajevo?
20 A. Well, you cannot say exactly that. There was some rain as well.
21 Q. Thank you. And you said that you had a sweaters and jackets on.
22 A. No. I had a jacket but once your name is called out for beating,
23 some of the people were only in T-shirts and they borrowed sweaters and
24 jackets from their fellow inmates in order to alleviate the pain from
25 being beaten by rifle butts.
1 Q. There were 280 of you. Where were you put up?
2 A. On the first night when we arrived, they maltreated us from 1.00
3 until probably 3.00 a.m. I remember clearly that you -- they were
4 [indiscernible] by Meho Palo, Satara, Ibro who were policemen. They
5 found them and beat them. They took out Alija Kardas, we just heard a
6 scream and he never got back. Then on the morning of the 23rd of June --
7 Q. Very well. I just want to know where the 28 of you were put up.
8 A. In two rooms on the floor in the Slavisa Vajner Cica barracks.
9 Q. In paragraph 77 of your amalgamated statement, you said that you
10 were put up in one room.
11 A. You are going too fast ahead. On the 23rd, in the morning, when
12 they beat us up, they forced us to run to a completely different part of
13 the barracks to one room. They continued calling up people's names of
14 people from Hadzici, and it happened on the 20th of June 1992.
15 Priest Milan Lucic was there.
16 Q. Please wait a second. We are still in the barracks. 280 of you
17 were in one room. Now you say two rooms. How big was this room?
18 A. When we arrived on the 23rd of June, but you know very well how
19 big the barracks is. Don't pretend to be naive.
20 Q. In this room, how many of you were there? You said in two rooms.
21 A. No, no, no. Yes. 280. Then the 47 were later taken away.
22 Q. How was big -- how big was the room that you were put up in?
23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please
24 repeat the answer?
25 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Music, could you repeat your last answer? The
1 interpreters couldn't hear you.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So, on the 23rd of June --
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. The room, the room, sir. How big was the room where you were
6 A. It was 8 by 5 or 6, but I didn't have an opportunity to measure
7 it. We were just pushed in as if we were cattle. I didn't have a
8 measuring stick with me.
9 Q. Were you sitting, were you lying down, what did you do in that
11 A. We packed ourselves in half of that room because we didn't know
12 what was going on until Vojo Vukotic came, who worked for the railway
13 company, I used to see him in Blazuj when I was working there as well.
14 He had a list with people's names encircled in red who were supposed to
15 be executed.
16 Q. Thank you. In paragraphs 81 and 82 of your amalgamated
17 statement, you recalled something only on the occasion of the trial
18 against President Milosevic and your evidence given in those proceedings.
19 You said that you had been maltreated by people wearing Red Berets and
20 some sort of caps; is that correct?
21 A. Yes, in other words, I was talking about the Special Police
22 forces from Serbia wearing red berets.
23 Q. [In English] "The policemen in the hall who beat me were all
24 wearing a red berets."
25 [No interpretation]
1 [In English] "They spoke in Ekavian."
2 [Interpretation] Ekavian accent.
3 [In English] "They all wore camouflage uniforms, red berets."
4 [Interpretation] And you say:
5 [In English] "I'm sure they were from Serbia, from the city of
6 Nis, in particular. They were members of the Special Forces from Nis,
7 the Nis specialists."
8 [Interpretation] This is how you described them and that prompted
9 and triggered your memory only after you were summoned to testify in the
10 Milosevic case; is that correct?
11 A. No, it isn't.
12 Q. But why did you remember that only in the Milosevic trial? Why
13 you never mentioned that before?
14 A. I don't know.
15 Q. Thank you. Can we now look at 65 ter 8978, 65 ter 8978, page 5
16 in Serbian and 7 in English. You say here, the fifth line from the top
17 in the Serbian:
18 "They ordered me to go through the corridor," and between the
19 first and the second, third, well, let's see where the English begins:
20 [In English] "I had to run the gauntlet."
21 [Interpretation] And now you say:
22 They ordered me to go down that hallway and when I started to run
23 down the hallway I had to run the gauntlet made by the military police
24 members wearing red berets, actually those were not red berets but red
25 caps with a yellow sign."
1 Is that what you said at the time?
2 A. They were Red Berets, they were the specials from Nis, and when
3 I was at Tomo Kovac's, you skipped, or, you omitted to say that I was
4 there for 48 days. I didn't have any fresh air. I was kept in the
6 Q. All right. Did you state what we see in front of us in this
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Why didn't you say at the time that you said it was the
10 Red Berets? Why didn't you repeat in the amalgamated statements anything
11 about the red signs on their caps and why didn't you say 1996 that these
12 were specials from Nis?
13 A. I could ask you the same thing if you had been treated inhumanely
14 and hiding like a mouse. I would ask you the same thing.
15 Q. All right. Thank you. Let us see --
16 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Hayden?
17 MR. HAYDEN: Mr. President, it's not appropriate for Mr. Karadzic
18 to ask the witness why something wasn't included in the amalgamated
19 statement. As he well knows, these amalgamated statements are prepared
20 by the Office of the Prosecutor. It would be equivalent to asking a
21 witness why were you not asked a certain question in direct examination?
22 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Hayden.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I repeat our assertion that the
24 fault of amalgamated statements is the fact that they are the product of
25 the Prosecution, not the product of what the witness said. I'm just
1 asking the witness whether he -- why he added something and why he did
2 not stick to the statement from 1995. But all right, very well, let's
3 move on.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Let us see what else you remembered or what else was suggested to
6 you. Let's look at 1D3362. 1D3362, paragraph 3. Paragraph 3, they are
7 interpreting you here as well:
8 [In English] "In paragraph 84, Mr. Music recalls that at Lukavica
9 he was brought into a room where there were three officers. He stated
10 that they swore on my "balija" mother and one of them kicked me,"
11 [Interpretation] and so on and so forth.
12 [In English] "Mr. Music said he believes that the officer who
13 kicked him was Tomislav Sipcic, the Romanija Corps commander. He
14 believes this because when he was previously in The Hague for the
15 Krajisnik case he listened to several intercepted conversations."
16 [Interpretation] You're stating here, thus, that General Sipcic
17 personally beat you, and even though you provided 15 statements and
18 amended statements and mentioned over 150 names, you never mentioned
19 General Sipcic. Who suggested to you to remember that before this
20 particular testimony here in my case?
21 A. As far as I can remember, he must have committed major crimes.
22 If I'm not mistaken, he was a colonel at the time. And as for what you
23 say, all of the things that happened, I have information about because
24 I'm in touch with some of the Serbs of yours from whom I'm receiving
25 information about graves. They said that Momo Mandic --
1 Q. Wait, wait. Just before testifying in my case, you happened to
2 recall General Sipcic and accused him, accused General Sipcic of beating
3 you, and now you're saying that General Sipcic committed crimes. Is that
4 something that someone suggested to you or you just happened to suddenly
5 recall that?
6 A. Nobody prepares me, not even my family knows where I am right
7 now. We do not have a tendency to lie just as many Serbs, in quotation
8 marks, do.
9 JUDGE KWON: We will take another brief break for 15 minutes. We
10 will resume at half past 11.00.
11 --- Break taken at 11.15 a.m.
12 --- On resuming at 11.32 a.m.
13 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, you have about 40 minutes to conclude
14 your cross-examination.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With all due respect, Excellency,
16 this is the favourite witness of all the OTP witnesses. He's given 15
17 statements and now we are on paragraph 80 of the amalgamated statement.
18 Really, we need more time.
19 JUDGE KWON: You can't deal with every aspect. Concentrate on
20 important issues.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Then I think that the
22 questions that I did not manage to cover will not be used as a ground for
23 any decisions by the Trial Chamber.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Music, nobody suggested anything to you, thus, but you,
1 yourself, remembered to involve General Sipcic in this particular
2 testimony; is that correct?
3 A. No.
4 Q. All right, correct, so somebody suggested him to you?
5 A. No, never.
6 Q. So it's correct that nobody suggested it to you, you remembered
7 it yourself?
8 A. My word of honour. Nobody did it, in Bosnia now we have the
9 chequer-board -- I mean this is how all of our politicians are behaving.
10 MR. HAYDEN: Just to correct the record. Mr. Karadzic says it
11 was the witness who suggested that he involved General Sipcic in this
12 particular testimony. Prior to Mr. Karadzic raising it, it wasn't part
13 of this witness's testimony.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Then perhaps it was the
15 interpretation. I said, Did he recall it himself or did somebody suggest
16 it to him? Thank you.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Mr. Music, let us now briefly look at one P exhibit, P1001, so
19 that we can see how General Sipcic reacts quite strongly to first
20 unconfirmed rumours in relation to a brigade commander. P1001. Yes,
21 this is something else but this is also a document, there is also the
22 front page, all right, just one moment, page 1, ah, there it is, at the
23 top. Kusic, I strictly forbid to you take any action on your own unless
24 I personally approve. Particularly any form of mopping up of anybody's
25 villages. For the last time I'm warning you to refrain from massacres,
1 rampaging, abusing the innocent population of any nationality. Commander
2 Colonel Tomislav Sipcic on 26th of June, 1992.
3 On the 23rd, you had already arrived there and you assert that
4 that colonel, he was a colonel at the time, personally mistreated you and
5 slapped you; is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Fortunately, a protected witness here, we are not going to
8 mention his name, confirmed that these were rumours, and slander, even
9 though he warned Sipcic, even Kusic without any reason?
10 A. We spent three nights there where we were beaten, mistreated,
11 there is nothing that we didn't have to do. We had to cross ourselves,
12 sing different songs. We had to curse Alija. People were hitting us
13 with rifles as we were lying on our stomachs. I don't really want to
14 remember this any more.
15 Q. All right. My question is: After were you in Lukavica, you were
16 transferred to Kula; is that correct?
17 A. Yes. There were two rooms there.
18 Q. Also in two rooms in Kula?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And in your statement, you said that you were assigned to rooms.
21 A. Well, you need to proceed in order, otherwise you're going to
22 make mistakes.
23 Q. Were you mistreated in Kula?
24 A. In Kula, there were -- this was before we went out on work
25 assignment. We went to Grbavica, we were looting for the Serbs. We went
1 all the way to our lines, front lines. Our people looked at us. They
2 didn't want to fire at us. Everything that was of value was loaded on to
3 trucks and was trucked into the Slavisa Vajner Cica Barracks.
4 Q. This was not the question. The question is: Were you mistreated
5 in Kula?
6 A. I was questioned, but I was not mistreated in Kula.
7 Q. All right. Is it correct that you testify so frequently because
8 some people will not testify, your Muslims from your village?
9 A. Probably they don't want to see you because you're not really
10 that sympathetic.
11 Q. But, sir, they don't want to witness in other cases and they are
12 even angry at you because you're testifying; is that correct?
13 A. I don't see any people who are angry.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at 65 ter 9153.
16 Serbian page 4, English page 5, 65 ter 9153. This is your statement from
17 2002. In the Serbian, it is one paragraph-but-last:
18 "I could talk about this" and in English, it's -- begins with the
19 words, "Also Nermin Simsic," the last paragraph on this page.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. You say:
22 "Also Nermin Simsic could say more about this as he was together
23 with me in Kula in the same room. And as he was friends with
24 Slobodan Avlijas, who came and brought him cigarettes."
25 Is that Slobodan Avlijas that you accused of mistreating people?
1 A. In my opinion, Slobodan Avlijas is an extremist, I knew him
2 before. He was born in Rakovica and he lived in Hadzici on the same
3 floor as my father-in-law.
4 Q. All right. All right. However, Simsic doesn't want to say
5 anything because he stopped talking with me only because I said that he
6 could testify about this event. So this Nermin Simsic, is he a Muslim
7 from your part of the world?
8 A. Not "Simsic" but "Semsic." He was taken out. If he saved his
9 life and prevented him from getting killed, why would he then speak ill
10 of him?
11 Q. All right. Thank you. You said this in 2002; is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Thank you. And in paragraph 91 of your amalgamated statement,
14 you say that you were questioned by Predrag Ceranic in Kula; is that
16 A. Yes, and he was professional.
17 Q. Thank you. The fact that he was professional and fair to you,
18 this operative of the State Security Service, Predrag Ceranic, why is
19 that not mentioned in paragraph 97 of your amalgamated statement?
20 A. Well, don't ask me that.
21 Q. Thank you. So we have to take your amalgamated statement with a
22 degree of reserve because it does not quite reflect what you said; is
23 that correct?
24 A. Could you please explain? I don't know what you mean.
25 JUDGE KWON: Please move on. You raised this and you had heard
1 the explanation.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. In your testimony in the case against it Momcilo Krajisnik, you
5 suddenly recalled Momcilo Mandic; is that correct?
6 A. Look, I knew Momcilo Mandic before the war. I knew he was in the
7 police. I saw him on a daily basis because my rooms were some 60 metres
8 away from the entrance that he used every day to go to the canteen where
9 the food was. Some people went with him. I don't know if they were his
10 escorts or not. I was not permitted to come close to the window. I was
11 one metre away from the window.
12 Q. Thank you, thank you. As you see, we don't have too much time.
13 So in all statements to date, before your testimony in the Krajisnik
14 case, you did not mention Mandic; is that correct?
15 A. You had the opportunity here to see intercepted conversations
16 provided to you. Everything is there. The then Colonel Tomislav Sipcic,
17 when he spoke, I didn't have the opportunity.
18 Q. All right. All right. Thank you. So you learned a lot from the
19 material from the intercepted talks; is that corrected?
20 A. Well, I don't have as much time as you have to make up certain
22 Q. Thank you. Do you know what post Mr. Momcilo Mandic occupied
23 during the war?
24 A. He was your minister of police, because after that, I was
25 transferred to Ilidza to Tomo Kovac, whom you withdrew.
1 Q. Thank you. And you say that because of that he wore a uniform;
2 is that correct?
3 A. Yes. But they were not wearing the SMB uniforms. Their uniforms
4 were more beige, Avlijas and my neighbour, Milenko Bjelica, as
5 I explained, when they were taking me to Kula, he pretended not to see me
6 and he turned away.
7 Q. All right. We are on Mandic now. Mandic was the minister of
8 justice not the minister of police, do you know that?
9 A. It's all the same thing.
10 Q. Thank you. Never in your life you saw Momcilo Mandic; is that
12 A. You can't say that. I knew him from seeing him around every day
13 but I didn't know him that he -- I didn't know that he could become just
14 the same kind of extremist person as you are.
15 Q. All right. Let's see what Judge Orie went through in order to
16 establish the truth in your words. You went back and forth with him
17 quite a lot. Look at page 20 of the amalgamated statement where
18 Judge Orie says, and you say -- and you didn't see him on that occasion
19 either, but during Judge Orie's questioning you started to make up
20 arguments in order to get Momcilo Mandic involved in the proceedings
21 against Momcilo Krajisnik. Yes or no; is that correct?
22 A. I have the impression that you're trying to provoke me, but you
23 will not succeed.
24 Q. Is it correct what I have just said?
25 A. No it is not correct.
1 Q. Did you then lie to Judge Orie?
2 A. I didn't lie. I grew up in a family that was such that I'm not
3 used to lies.
4 Q. Page 22 of your amalgamated statement, Judge Orie is speaking to
6 [In English] "Let me bring you back again, I'm not asking you
7 what you know about Mr. Mandic and whether he is rich or poor. I am
8 asking you on the base of what you recognised -- you recognised him at
9 the first occasion when he went to the canteen.
10 [Interpretation] Your answer:
11 [In English] "My colleagues said Mandic is coming."
12 [Interpretation] So on and so forth:
13 [In English] "I didn't. I did not move around. I had long hair
14 and a beard, and not even my friends could recognise me when I took --
15 when they took me out of -- to have my hair cut.
16 [Interpretation] So first of all you saw him, and then you heard
17 from someone that he was coming and then others recognised him instead of
18 you. And you never met him, and you remembered all of that 12 years
19 after the actual occurrences. You never mentioned him in any one of the
20 statements you gave over the past 12 years; right?
21 A. I didn't know his brother and they told me that's his brother who
22 walked in. I knew him well. So that's not true.
23 Q. Thank you. So you were not close to the window through which you
24 allegedly saw Mandic; right?
25 A. I had to be about a metre away. A soldier would come and beat us
1 if we would get any closer. There was a dog in front of that window.
2 They called him Alija. You see how much respect they had for our
4 Q. On page 23 and 24 we see that Judge Orie is trying to discern
5 what it is that you're trying to say in order to reach a conclusion.
6 Look at page 25 of your amalgamated statement. How you are concluding
7 something on the basis of pure fabrication:
8 [In English] "Was he accompanied by others when he was -- by
9 other person or by other persons when he was not accompanied by his
11 [No interpretaiton].
12 [In English] "Well, they would come in, more of them. I didn't
13 look to see who, what, they were all the same to me, they were all my
15 [Interpretation] Is this your answer to Judge Orie? Is that
16 right? And then also at the Krajisnik case -- trial, 12 years later, and
17 after 12 statements and addendums, you, all of a sudden, remember that
18 you saw him when you were transferred to the prison in Ilidza; right?
19 A. I saw him in Ilidza. As I described very extensively, I had, I
20 don't know, 15 or 20, oh, come on, I mean, you know when you go upstairs
21 in Ilidza, you know, there were 8 or 2 of us in a room -- there were 8 of
22 us in a room that was 2 by 1 and a half metres, we could barely stand
23 there, let alone lie down.
24 Q. Thank you. You also remember that you saw Krajisnik, and you
25 remember that 12 years after the actual occurrence and it was in relation
1 to your testimony in the Krajisnik case. And you first mentioned this on
2 the occasion of that testimony; is that right?
3 A. I don't remember if it was the first time.
4 Q. Thank you. Look at paragraph 110 of your amalgamated statement.
5 The name of Momcilo Krajisnik is mentioned there so we'll find it:
6 [In English] "But I went bak to myself and after some short time,
7 I saw Krajisnik Momcilo through his vent."
8 [Interpretation] Was Mr. Krajisnik also wearing camouflage
10 A. No.
11 Q. On page 28 of your amalgamated statement, you say that you saw
12 Mr. Krajisnik through the window; right?
13 A. It's not a window. It's an opening. It's like a cupboard. He
14 was about two or three metres away like these gentlemen sitting here now.
15 Q. This is what you say to Judge Orie:
16 [In English] "I saw a car arriving, but I stood apart because
17 I saw an escort. I knew that somebody was coming. So I stood by the
19 [Interpretation] Is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you. Then you said that in actual fact you saw him when
22 you were being taken back to the cell; right? That is page 28 of your
23 amalgamated statement. Let me read it out to you:
24 [In English] "Yes, I did straight afterwards. They brought me in
25 and I was coming in through the opposite door. Not the main entrances --
1 entrance, not the main door, because we were on opposite side and
2 I recognised the man."
3 [Interpretation] So this seems to be different from what you said
4 in relation to that window?
5 JUDGE KWON: Before you answer, Mr. Music, yes, Mr. Hayden?
6 MR. HAYDEN: It might be helpful to have the full answer that the
7 witness gave which we can see in the statement, but Mr. Music doesn't
8 have it in his language.
9 JUDGE KWON: Could you read out the remainder?
10 MR. HAYDEN: Mr. Karadzic read:
11 "Because we were on opposite side, and I recognised the man,
12 I recognised him when he was coming back, when he was returning."
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Do you still remember the question, Mr. Music?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you see, since at the time
15 I was cleaning the compound, washing cars, and at one moment the man who
16 was guarding us said, Back inside, somebody is coming. So perhaps
17 I wouldn't have seen him if it wasn't that way, but they didn't really
18 want us to see anything that was going on there. Poplasen also came
19 there. I personally washed his car. The man must have been there for
20 about half an hour. That was the first time I was terrified. He had
21 this enormous knife. He was drunk. He had enormous eyes as well. He
22 had a kokarde, a Serbian kokarde. I'm not going to lie and say that he
23 beat me or something. When he finished washing his car he gave me a pack
24 of cigarettes.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Thank you. You said that you saw him from the cell because the
2 door was ajar; right?
3 A. No the door was not ajar. It is a padded door and you cannot
4 really see that. I told you that the door was open looking like a very
5 small book. And when he said, Back inside, somebody is coming, then
6 I paid attention to it. Had he not said that, I wouldn't have paid any
7 attention, I saw Tintor, Poplasen. I saw all of these policemen. You
8 cannot persuade me that it was any different.
9 Q. This is not a question of persuasion. Page 28 of your
10 consolidated statement, let us see what Judge Orie is trying to do. And
11 I find that extremely comforting because he didn't succeed either. This
12 is what you said to him:
13 [In English] "I was in the cell. They had taken me back to the
14 cell to prevent me from seeing too much, but I just happened to see it
15 because the door was slightly ajar."
16 [Interpretation] So in this terrible prison, the door is padded
17 and ajar; right?
18 A. You're full of lies. I'm telling you, you are confusing apples
19 and pears, please, it's not that kind of opening.
20 Q. Let us see what you said. You said a moment ago that the door
21 was padded and that there was an opening there.
22 A. In the middle. And it was at the height of my chin.
23 Q. When you're standing up?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Let us see what you say on page 29 of the padded statement -- oh,
1 I meant amalgamated statement. This is what Judge Orie says:
2 [In English] "I understand that you saw him through the window in
3 the door or through an opening, the door not being fully closed. Through
4 the opening" --
5 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, let's be sure that the witness is
6 following. Do you understand what this is about? The document you're
7 seeing in front of you? That's part of your --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, listen, I could know if it
9 were in my own language. And this way it's not really useful for me to
10 be following.
11 JUDGE KWON: This is part of your amalgamated statement which you
12 confirmed during the course of your direct examination led by Mr. Hayden.
13 This part refers to your -- all your evidence in the Krajisnik case, and
14 this is part of a conversation you had with Judge Orie at the time.
15 Please go on.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. This is your answer:
18 [In English] "The door was closed but through the opening, they
19 would always lock the door."
20 [Interpretation] At the end, you say that you saw him as you were
21 sitting, although the little window on the door was as high as your chin;
23 A. As you know full well, you know that because you also came to
24 Tomo Kovac, and it's about half a metre up. And we sat there in order to
25 have some fresh air because there were eight of us and I couldn't --
1 Q. All right. Page 30, this is your answer:
2 [In English] "I was sitting like this, as I am now, and he passed
3 in front of me just a metre away."
4 [Interpretation] And so on.
5 This is what Judge Orie said:
6 [In English] "At what height, approximately, was the opening in
7 the door?"
8 [No interpretation]
9 [In English] "Well, the opening was at the level of my head.
10 "Judge Orie: What would be -- that would be approximately in the
11 middle of the door, taking into account the average height of the door."
12 [Interpretation] This is what you say:
13 [In English] "No, more higher."
14 [Interpretation] Then you go on to describe this.
15 So through this high opening on the door of the cell, as you were
16 sitting, you saw Mr. Krajisnik, is that what you said?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Thank you. Then you describe your stay at the Ilidza station,
19 and in paragraph 112, you say that you did not trust Mr. Glavas, who was
20 commander of the station in Ilidza; right?
21 A. Right.
22 Q. And he saved the life of one of your family members. He used all
23 his connections in order to enable a wounded man to get to a Muslim
24 hospital, though he had been in three Serb hospitals. Did you describe
25 that, how he made it possible for that ambulance to get through with that
1 wounded man of yours?
2 A. That is true. But it's not -- I cannot lie. But it's not my
3 family. It is a member of my son-in-law's family.
4 Q. Can we now have a look at 1D3360. It is a statement from 2007.
5 In Serbian, page 3; in English, page 5. Zumreta Music, the last
6 paragraph, and then it says: "My third daughter had already been married
7 and she lived in Edvana [phoen] Hercegovacka," that's probably the name
8 of the street, "in Kovacevici." In English, it's around line 10 or 12.
9 You will see the name of Zumreta Music. You say the village was attacked
10 on the 7th of May when my son-in-law's brother was wounded. He was
11 transferred, Serbs also helped - Tihomir Glavas, police commander - to
12 transfer him to Sarajevo because he was seriously wounded but the
13 clerk -- but check-points had already been established and he intervened
14 that he be allowed to pass through the check-points in order to be taken
15 to Sarajevo, is that what you said?
16 A. I stand by every word I said.
17 Q. Thank you. And in paragraph 101 of your amalgamated statement,
18 before they transferred you to Ilidza on the 23rd of July 1992, although
19 now in your consolidated statement you changed the date to the 21st of
21 A. It is exactly the 21st.
22 Q. Can we have a look at this? Paragraph 102 of the consolidated
24 [In English] "Before we would have gone to work on 21st of July,
25 1992. On 21st of July 1992, they called out the names of me and five
1 men. We were taken to bus, to a bus, there were women and children there
2 on the bus. We thought we were going to be exchanged, but that didn't
4 [Interpretation] In all your statements so far, just like in the
5 previous consolidated statement, it was the 23rd of July, whereas here
6 you say it's the 21st of July.
7 A. The 21st of July. On the 20th, I was working in Ozrenska digging
8 trenches, working, and a man with a sniper saw me from our side and what
9 could I do? And I turned to him and I looked at him and I thought, It's
10 better for one of my own men to kill me than somebody else.
11 Q. Thank you. We'll get to Ozrenska, it's not true you were digging
12 trenches, you were doing something else. Is it true that on the morning
13 when you arrived in Lukavica, about 44 or even more elderly persons were
14 allowed to go to the Muslim part of Sarajevo?
15 A. That happened on the 30th of June, 1992; that is to say, 75
16 persons who were born in around 1936. For example, my father-in-law was
17 born in 1926, he was in that other war. I mean what kind of a soldier
18 was he? They just wanted to loot his apartment.
19 Q. Persons born from 1936 onwards, so people were around 53 or 54,
20 and all of them were released; right?
21 A. It is the way I said it and I agree with that.
22 Q. Thank you. Let us go back to the 21st of July. Is -- or,
23 rather, was that a Serb bus, the one that you took?
24 A. Well, it's probably not a Muslim bus. Oh, no, no, no. It was an
25 UNPROFOR bus. UNPROFOR was escorting, that's the first time I saw women
1 and children. As far as I know through Lukavica and Kula, there were
2 3.000 Bosniaks who went through. I mean --
3 Q. Thank you, thank you.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see 22205, 65 ter;
5 65 ter 22205, page 4 in the Serbian and in the English.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. It's in the middle where you say, "I stayed in Kula until 23rd of
8 July, 1992." And then in the lower part, the other -- the second
9 paragraph which begins, "I remained at Kula until 23rd." I'm going to
10 read in Serbian:
11 "I remained in Kula until 23rd of July 1992, when
12 Asim, Musanovic; Semsic, Nermin; Meho Babic, Jusuf Fejzovic, and
13 Ekrem Nuhanovic and I were called out and told that we were going to be
14 exchanged. After that, an UNPROFOR vehicle came to pick us up. When we
15 arrived in Ilidza we were stopped by the Chetniks at the traffic lights
16 near the old railway station and were told that all of those who were not
17 going to be called out should get out of the vehicle. Accordingly,
18 Raif Fejzovic and I got out of the vehicle and were subsequently taken to
19 the building of the Ilidza SJB where we were detained."
20 So nowhere do you mention women, children or buses. UNPROFOR
21 didn't have any buses. They only had armoured vehicle vehicles; is that
23 A. Look, you are so full of lies. Whatever I said I stand by it.
24 Q. Thank you. Is it true that in this statement you never mentioned
25 women and children or a bus?
1 A. Why would I have to mention it? I was taken to Ilidza. I don't
2 know where this exchange took place. Your criminals and our criminals
3 got together and they made some exchange, but you know very well what
5 Q. While you were in Ilidza SJB, you were being treated fairly; is
6 that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. However, while you were in village Ilidza, a shell fell near the
9 station, and destroyed a large number of cars, and that, among other
10 things, contributed to your being late for the exchange, or, rather,
11 failing to be exchanged; is that correct?
12 A. Yes. Because you were afraid nobody went out. They only sent us
13 out to clear up the rubble. So presumably if one shell came, one could
14 have expected another one to come, but I don't know where it came from.
15 Q. But who was firing at the Serbs at the time?
16 A. There is no name written on a shell.
17 Q. After that, after this failed exchange, you were returned to the
18 sports centre in Hadzici; is that correct?
19 A. There were 52 detainees from Kula and two from Ilidza, including
20 women and children and elderly, as I said, there was an invalid without
21 both legs, there were children there as well. There were elderly people
22 whom I had to help get to the toilet.
23 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Were these people willing to be
25 A. No. It was ordered for them to do that, to collect all their
1 belongings, they gave them only 15 minutes.
2 Q. Thank you. We'll come to that. So in paragraph 117, you say:
3 [In English] "They never reached any agreement regarding the
4 exchange, and at a certain point, all the buses went to Hadzici. They
5 stopped in front of the sports hall and we were all unloaded there.
6 There were about 500 of us. I" --
7 [Interpretation] And a little bit down.
8 [In English] "I was together with my wife and family."
9 [Interpretation] Then again, downwards:
10 [In English] "Then there was my brother and my sister-in-law, my
11 brother's son who was retarded."
12 [Interpretation] When you were taken prisoner in Musici, that was
13 a time when the Serbs left the women and the children as well as your
14 brother because he had a retarded child?
15 A. Yes, that's correct. That was done by a friend of his, who used
16 to work with his father but these are extremists, Dragan Prodan, they
17 used to have trailer trucks --
18 Q. Thank you, thank you. The 14 of you were captured and taken
19 away, whereas the women and children, including your brother because he
20 had a retarded child, were left alone; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. In this paragraph, you say that on that occasion, or, rather,
23 when you returned from this failed exchange, you were reunited with your
24 brother, her husband -- his wife and the other brother who had this
25 retarded child.
1 A. Yes. And including my father who was born in 1924.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 JUDGE KWON: Now it's time to wrap up your cross-examination.
4 You have five minutes.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will really do my best to reduce
6 the number of questions as much as possible.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Did you testify against Rade Veselinovic despite the fact that
9 you were not an eyewitness of any of his crimes and that was in the
10 Bosnia-Herzegovinian court?
11 A. This person maltreated me more than anyone else. When I left the
12 camp and became a member of the commission, I didn't dare say that I was
13 on the commission.
14 Q. Thank you. Did you testify against him in the
15 Bosnia-Herzegovinian court?
16 A. Yes, on two occasions.
17 Q. Thank you. Can we now have 1D3361 -- 0, while we are waiting,
18 you said that you -- he had maltreated you and you took your revenge by
19 testifying against him.
20 A. You are full of lies.
21 Q. Thank you. 1D3360. Page 7 in Serbian and page 11 in English.
22 Last paragraph, you were asked by the Prosecutor as follows:
23 "Were you ever an eyewitness to him having liquidated anyone,
24 abused, beaten, maltreated anyone," and so forth.
25 And you say:
1 "I wasn't. I only recounted my version and what I experienced,
2 and it is undeniable that Rade Veselinovic was a member of the police and
3 that he was moving across the area."
4 He was, therefore, convicted for being a member of the police and
5 he was in the area, but you never saw any act that he committed.
6 Therefore, is that correct?
7 A. Well, you see, I know that he was present when the 12 Bosniaks
8 and two Croats were shot dead.
9 Q. Were you present there?
10 A. This is a stupid question.
11 Q. Let's now talk about the exchanges. You say that the civilians
12 who were to be exchanged were given half an hour to pick up their
14 A. Fifteen minutes, don't lie. I said 15 minutes, five minutes ago.
15 Don't change it.
16 Q. Thank you. Did you request which particular civilians would be
17 exchanged? Did you ask for your wife and other relatives of yours to be
18 exchanged, and in exchange the Serbs were supposed to release some of the
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Can we briefly look at 1D3363. 1D3363. You say, and I'm going
22 to read it, I don't know if there is a translation, it's a statement that
23 you gave, and I quote:
24 "I hereby declare that I'm leaving Vesel Kotodorovic [phoen],
25 father's name, Nedeljko Hadzic [indiscernible] number 33. I leave to him
1 in custody until my return the following items: Gornja TV, washing
2 machine, refrigerator, and other items that are going to left in the safe
3 custody of the above named, and that no compensation was requested in
5 So this was done by your wife?
6 A. Yes. People used to leave houses and cars and things like that.
7 I know where this man lives and I would like Todorovic, Gavro to be faced
8 with this. That's the son of this man.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at your statement
11 given on 16th of June, 1997, and then on the 26th of June 1997? But
12 before that, can we have the document which is currently on the screen
13 being tendered into evidence?
14 JUDGE KWON: We will mark it for identification, pending English
16 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI D1116, Your Honours.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now, in -- can we have in e-court
18 your 1997 statement? 65 ter 9091. If we had time, it's a very
19 instructive statement, and valuable, so if I'm granted some additional
20 time by you are Excellencies, I will get back to it.
21 JUDGE KWON: It's time to conclude. How long do you expect for
22 your re-examination, Mr. Hayden?
23 MR. HAYDEN: Five minutes, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE KWON: Conclude by 25 past 12.00.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at page 14, that is the
1 penultimate page in English and I believe it's the same page in Serbian.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. I'm only going to repeat what you said and I would just like you
4 to confirm whether it's correct or not. Who suggested to you to call
5 certain people "weekend Chetniks?"
6 A. A friend of mine from the Ilidza police told me that and I didn't
7 know before that. I used to see various people in various uniforms who
8 would come over on Friday and leave on a Monday. I'm not going to tell
9 you his name because he told me not to walk around Ilidza too much
10 because I would get killed. They used to kill Croats en masse. I don't
11 know what they were actually doing, but I have to say that they treated
12 me in an extremely fair and correct manner.
13 Q. Thank you. The manager of the Hadzici sports centre also treated
14 you in a correct way?
15 A. Yes, at Ilidza.
16 Q. Okay, at Ilidza, but how about Lukavica and Kula, did they treat
17 you fairly as well?
18 A. Yes. Because that was Mr. Kovac. Glavas was playing a double
19 game. He saved some people but he also shot dead some people.
20 Q. Thank you. You said on this page that you were never taken to
21 perform forced labour in Svrake.
22 A. They did but they spared me because I was too exhausted.
23 Q. Thank you. Now you mentioned human shield. Is it used if an
24 army is advancing or retreating?
25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please
1 slowly repeat his answer from the very beginning. Thank you.
2 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Music, interpreters missed your beginning part
3 of your answer. Could you repeat from the beginning?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Look, from what I know, it --
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Wait a moment, please. Do you think that human shield is being
7 used when an army is advancing or retreating and then they place
8 civilians between them?
9 A. When they were advancing, because they were cowards, they only
10 felt brave when they were firing from artillery.
11 Q. Mr. Music, so you're saying that the Serbian army was advancing
12 and using you as a human shield. Where was it advancing?
13 A. They couldn't have advanced anywhere where there was
14 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
15 Q. Now let's go back. What you said in this penultimate part, and
16 it says here that both sides asked that their civilians be released and
17 Kobiljaca is mentioned here. Do you see that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And it says that both sides asked for their civilians to be set
20 free. That's what you stated?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Thank you. Can we now look at the last page, and I can read it.
23 You said to a Serb, or, rather, you made an arrangement with a Serb and
24 you say:
25 "For the third time when I came there, there was a man who asked
1 for six men from our side, three women and three children. I asked for
2 my wife, my father, my brother, his wife and their two children. That's
3 the arrangement that I made to meet this Serb within seven days. I told
4 him that he should allow my family to take their belongings with them,
5 and I guaranteed him that his family would be allowed the same. After we
6 agreed on this, we both went to the police on our respective sides, in
7 order to prepare the papers. That depended on whether people wanted to
8 be exchanged. After we received the decision to proceed with the
9 exchange, and after the exchange was completed, we had to go back to the
10 police with the papers confirming from the other side in each case to the
11 effect that the exchange was carried out and that the civilians were
13 Is that what you said?
14 A. I took it by force and the Serbs were involved in that because
15 they used to change --
16 Q. Thank you, thank you. How many times did your wife attempt to be
17 exchanged and the rest of your family?
18 A. Well, she was supposed to be exchanged on the 7th as promised,
19 but since the exchange failed, as I described in my previous statement
20 when the shell fell, on the 8th, that was just a deception.
21 Q. Thank you, thank you. Now my last topic, Mr. Music. Had you
22 seen me in Hadzici before and during the war?
23 A. Several times before the war.
24 Q. And during the war?
25 A. What do you mean? I was in the camp during the war. I couldn't
1 have seen you.
2 Q. Why didn't you mention that earlier in your statement, that you
3 had seen me at least 15 times that I had my car painted, et cetera?
4 A. I said that in February. You cannot deny that.
5 Q. I'm asking you: Why didn't you mention that before?
6 A. Well, I didn't feel the need. I hoped that you would drop dead,
7 but I must say that I'm very happy to see you here and I think you will
8 end up as your mentor, Mr. Milosevic.
9 Q. Thank you. So today you said that for the first time; is that
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. If I were to tell you that I was never in Hadzici, what would you
14 A. That you are lying. We had people who were following you.
15 Q. Thank you. Sir, who followed me, some sort of secret service of
17 A. Well, these people from the Patriotic League.
18 Q. Uh-huh. And they followed me before the war as well; is that
20 A. Yes. Only in Hadzici.
21 Q. And when did you establish the Patriotic League?
22 A. Don't ask me that. I wasn't there. I'm not interested in that.
23 Q. And was that legal for you to follow me?
24 A. In the same way that it's not legal for you to rape, loot, rob.
25 Why didn't you ask me how many people were in Hadzici? 26.6 per cent of
1 the inhabitants were Serbs, but you were at all the positions in the
2 authority, you didn't want to divide power with Croats and Muslims and
3 that is why you began the war. The war began in 1987.
4 Q. Let's round off this topic: Was I followed by your Crisis Staff
5 or the Patriotic League, did you have a Crisis Staff?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Thank you. All right, Mr. Music, I wish you all the best, a safe
8 return home, and now I see exactly why you are a favourite witness.
9 Wherever the OTP appears, Mr. Music appears as well.
10 A. Well, look, you are not favourite among my people or anyone else
11 because you are the greatest aggressor after Hitler. You walked around
12 Sarajevo. I remember well in 1991 what you said in the Assembly of
13 Bosnia-Herzegovina. I am still hearing those words ring.
14 Q. All right. Say what that was --
15 JUDGE KWON: I never used this switch to turn microphones off,
16 but next time you're making unnecessary statements, I may use it,
17 Mr. Karadzic.
18 Mr. Hayden.
19 MR. HAYDEN: Thank you, Mr. President. I note that was the third
20 time today Mr. Karadzic has described this witness as a favourite of the
21 Prosecution. It's a phrase that he's used before. He's been told it's
22 inappropriate and he continues to use it. I note that for the record.
23 Re-examination by Mr. Hayden:
24 Q. Mr. Music, I just have a few extra questions for you. Just
25 before, and I'm looking at transcript page 68, you were asked by
1 Mr. Karadzic, okay, at -- you -- he was asking you about your treatment
2 and whether you were treated fairly. And he asked you about Lukavica and
3 Kula, and you said, yes, you were treated fairly because that was
4 Mr. Kovac. I just wanted to clarify whether your response referred to
5 both Kula and Lukavica or just one of those places.
6 A. Just for the Ilidza MUP, where Tomo Kovac was the chief of the
7 police until the accused appointed him as a minister in Pale, police
8 minister. He was replaced by Tiho Glavas, then who came, I think, on the
9 6th of August, I think, in 1992. In Lukavica, I went through hell there
10 and I don't like to remember that any more.
11 Q. Earlier today, Mr. Music, and I'm looking at transcript page 44,
12 Mr. Karadzic took you to paragraphs 81 and 82 of your statement, and he
13 asked you or he said to you, in those paragraphs you recalled something
14 only on the occasion of the trial against President Milosevic and your
15 evidence given in those proceedings. You said that you had been
16 maltreated by people wearing red berets and some sort of caps. Is that
17 correct? If I can have 65 ter 09091, please. If we can go to page 9 of
18 both versions.
19 In the middle of the page, Mr. Music, it states here, and I
20 believe you can read the B/C/S version also in the middle of the page:
21 "The policemen in the hall who beat me were all wearing red
22 berets. From the way they spoke and swore, I could tell that they were
23 not from here."
24 If we can go to page 1 of both versions. Can you confirm,
25 Mr. Music, this is a statement you gave in 1997?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you testified in the Slobodan Milosevic proceedings in 2002;
4 A. Yes.
5 MR. HAYDEN: Just for the record, the portion I have noted was
6 footnoted in the amalgamated statement that was provided to Dr. Karadzic.
7 Q. Finally, Mr. Music, Mr. Karadzic today raised a piece of
8 information you recently provided about Mr. Tomislav Sipcic. I just
9 wanted to further clarify that piece of information. You say in your
10 statement that you were kicked by a man you believed to be an officer and
11 that you did not know the identity of that man. Is it the case that
12 before testifying in the Krajisnik proceedings, you did not know the
13 identity of that man?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And what was it that occurred in The Hague when you came to
16 testify in the Krajisnik proceedings that led you to believe that that
17 man may have been Tomislav Sipcic?
18 A. Listening to the intercept, and I don't know who furnished it, in
19 the evening on the 20th or the 21st of October, when we were supposed to
20 be transferred to Semizovac, Svrake, from the sports hall, the
21 intercepted conversation that I listened to about that, Krajisnik was
22 issuing orders to Mandic, and Mandic to Slobodan Avlijas, that they
23 should transfer us to Svrake because our lines were moving, and so we
24 were needed to be in Hadzici -- we were needed into Hadzici to serve as
25 human shields because 11 people from Hadzici were killed.
1 Q. Okay. Sorry, so it was from listening to an intercept that was
2 provided to you when you were in The Hague; is that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And since the Krajisnik proceedings in 2004, have you testified
5 or given any evidence to the ICTY until today?
6 A. I gave statements to our institutions, the SIP, for example,
7 sometimes when they bring these people in, then they would question me,
8 what they did, how they did it, then we have information from some Serbs
9 who are not extremists about what was done, how it was done, and so on
10 and so forth.
11 Q. Thank you. But none of those institutions were the ICTY; is that
12 right, Mr. Music?
13 A. Yes.
14 MR. HAYDEN: That concludes the redirect examination,
15 Mr. President.
16 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
17 MR. HAYDEN: I do have one matter to put on the record while
18 we've got an opportunity, this relates to a previous witness. Just to
19 note for the record, that there is a public version now available for
20 Witness KDZ304, under 65 ter 90211A.
21 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Music. That concludes your evidence.
24 Thank you on behalf of the Tribunal and this Bench for coming to
25 The Hague yet again to give it. And now you are free to go.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. It's my
2 pleasure to experience an extremist here that Europe will not see the
3 likes of.
4 JUDGE MORRISON: I'm sorry, Mr. Witness, that's an entirely
5 unnecessary and unhelpful comment. I reiterate the thanks for you coming
6 to the Tribunal. This is not an opportunity to vent personal views but
7 simply to give evidence.
8 JUDGE KWON: Please have a safe journey back home.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 [The witness withdrew]
11 JUDGE KWON: We will adjourn for half an hour, and I take it the
12 next witness should be ready. We will resume at five past 1.00.
13 --- Recess taken at 12.36 p.m.
14 --- On resuming at 1.06 p.m.
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger?
16 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President. I just wanted to raise
17 one preliminary matter that the Court might already have anticipated and
18 that I discussed with Mr. Robinson earlier. That is the fact that the
19 Prosecution may be using information that falls within the category of
20 impeaching the witness. The Court may be aware of that by virtue of the
21 fact that the previous testimony which gave rise to the 92 ter reflects,
22 indeed, efforts by the Prosecution to illuminate certain issues that were
23 raised. Indeed I think the approach taken in the Krajisnik case was
24 cited in the Popovic judgement or decision as one of the alternative ways
25 of approaching these matters in furtherance of the pursuit of truth.
1 I would be inclined, I might add, to utilise the same kind of procedure
2 which does not involve moving to leading questions immediately but trying
3 to elicit from the witness initially his position and then moving
4 progressively through any previous information provided or documentation
5 before any kind of direct confrontation was -- took place. As I say, I
6 don't think this is the kind of situation that gives rise to much
7 ambiguity in terms of the use of previous information provided or other
8 documentation, and I think falls squarely within the jurisprudence but
9 I wanted to raise it early so we had a minimal amount of disruption to
10 the proceedings as we went through, if and when such instances occurred.
11 And, of course, I would also distinguish that as I know the Court will,
12 and as the previous decisions has, from -- have from instances where it's
13 simply refreshing recollection or clarifying ambiguities.
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes. I think we have some guidance from the
15 Appeals Chamber's jurisprudence. Do you have any observation,
16 Mr. Robinson?
17 MR. ROBINSON: I think it's better to wait and see how it
19 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
20 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Let's bring in the witness. While we
23 are waiting for the witness to be brought in, may I refer to the
24 accused's motion, second motion, for admission of supplemental statement
25 of Rule 92 bis witness, Andja Gotovac, to which the Prosecution didn't
1 oppose the request. Given that the statement has now been duly certified
2 by a presiding officer of the Registrar, then we'll grant it.
3 MR. ROBINSON: Actually, Mr. President, it was signed by the
4 witness but has not yet been duly certified by the presiding officer. So
5 we were asking you to grant the admission of the supplemental statement
6 subject to its certification by the presiding officer.
7 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, that will be done.
8 And a Rule 90(E) warning necessary?
9 MR. TIEGER: It was given in -- previously, Your Honour, and I'm
10 not aware of any particular change of circumstances, so if the Court is
11 guided by the approach in the previous case, that would be the case.
12 [The witness entered court]
13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Good afternoon, Mr. Prstojevic.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
15 JUDGE KWON: If you could take the solemn declaration.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
17 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
18 WITNESS: NEDJELJKO PRSTOJEVIC
19 [Witness answered through interpreter]
20 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Please make yourself comfortable.
21 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
22 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat what he said?
23 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Prstojevic, before you start giving evidence,
24 I would like to draw your attention to a particular Rule here at the
25 Tribunal. Under this Rule, Rule 90(E), you may object to answering a
1 question from the Prosecution or the accused or from the Judges if you
2 believe that your answer will incriminate you. When I say "incriminate,"
3 I mean that something you say may amount to an admission of your guilt
4 for a criminal offence or could provide evidence that you have committed
5 an offence. Mr. Prstojevic, are you hearing what I'm saying to you now
6 in your language?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did hear it, and I understand,
8 but I probably will not have to use that. I won't be needing to use it.
9 JUDGE KWON: I take it you are aware of it and have been
10 explained by the Victim and Witness Section but I have to continue.
11 However, even if you think your answer will incriminate you and
12 you do not wish to answer the question, the Tribunal has the discretion
13 to oblige you to answer the question. However, in such a case, we will
14 make it sure that your testimony compelled in such a way shall not be
15 used as evidence in other case against you for any offence other than
16 false testimony.
17 I take it you understand what I have just told you.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
19 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Prstojevic.
20 Yes, Mr. Tieger.
21 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
22 Examination by Mr. Tieger:
23 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Prstojevic.
24 A. Good afternoon.
25 Q. Can we begin just by having you state your full name for the
1 record, please?
2 A. I am Nedjeljko Prstojevic.
3 Q. And Mr. Prstojevic, is it correct that you testified before this
4 Tribunal in the trial of Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik in June of
5 2005, specifically from June 14th to June 20th of 2005?
6 A. That is correct.
7 Q. And Mr. Prstojevic, have you had an opportunity to review that
8 previous testimony through the use of the audiotapes of the testimony
9 that took place?
10 A. I did have the opportunity to look at the audiotapes of my
11 testimony a few days ago, since the time that I've been here.
12 Q. And Mr. Prstojevic, is it correct that the answers -- if you were
13 asked the same questions in this proceeding, that your -- the information
14 you would provide would be substantially the same to those questions, and
15 that your position is that the information you provided is accurate?
16 A. Basically, I stand by the truth. I'm not going to deny anywhere
17 what I have said, but I do have a series of remarks regarding what
18 happened in the trial of Mr. Momcilo Krajisnik, from additions to my CV,
19 to reminding everyone of my statement given to The Hague investigators
20 dated the 26th of March, 2009, and on what I said to you a few days ago,
21 since I've been here, that regarding all the issues, I can provide
22 certain detail, certain statistical data, that there are a lot of leading
23 questions there, and imposed ones, and that there are certain sections
24 where even the Trial Chamber said to me that they don't understand me
25 when I respond to certain questions or that I saw that the Trial
1 Chamber -- that judge didn't understand that it was a wartime situation,
2 but talked about barricades. So in order to be able to look at the
3 entirety of my statement, and to be able to understand over 208
4 intercepted conversations of mine here and some other documents, I would
5 like to augment my statement to remind everyone of the statement that
6 I gave to the investigators of The Hague Tribunal and to have explained
7 to me, even when I was giving the statement to the investigators,
8 I thought that that related only to me and not that it would be used in
9 the trials of other persons, because I am not really up to that and
10 I wouldn't do it unless I have to.
11 Q. Well, let's break that down, Mr. Prstojevic, to see how we can
12 best proceed. First of all, you understand that the statements given to
13 interviewers previously do not comprise part of your 92 ter statement and
14 are not the subject of the information that will be provided in written
15 form to the Court at this time, although you are free to refer to those
16 interviews in answering any questions put to you by myself or by the
17 accused or by the Court? You understand that? In other words, only your
18 testimony in the Krajisnik case is being tendered at this point which
19 I understood you to say you stand by.
20 A. I understand that, but, please, I voiced certain kind requests
21 here. I can immediately say that I can only accept the cross-examination
22 in its entirety by the lawyers and by Mr. Momcilo Krajisnik, in its
23 entirety. Other parts, I can accept but I do have seven points in
24 respect of that. Actually, not seven, ten, where I need to augment
25 certain things, certain points I would need to add one name; for example,
1 I said four persons were present, but now I know that there was a fifth
2 person also present about whom I know that was very important. So I will
3 be adding a name in one point. In another point I will be adding two or
4 three arguments, and so on and so forth.
5 Q. All right. Mr. Prstojevic, let's -- if you then are seeking to
6 clarify or correct portions of the testimony that will be submitted as --
7 or that is proposed for submission as 92 ter, can you proceed to do so
8 now? But I would ask you to be as succinct, concise and efficient as
9 possible under the circumstances.
10 A. So I would like to understand correctly if I will be allowed to
11 add some information to my CV because there is some imprecisions during
12 the previous trials as to what I was doing on the basis of volunteering
13 and what was it that I did as a professional.
14 Q. Mr. Prstojevic, that's not uncommon. However, this shouldn't be
15 an opportunity to augment the pre-existing record with information that
16 might not have been solicited previously because it's not so relevant to
17 the proceedings. So if you'll proceed and if you'll permit me to
18 indicate to you or have the Judges indicate to you that perhaps that's
19 more information than is appropriate under the circumstances, or
20 necessary under the circumstances, then you can proceed, with the Court's
21 permission, of course.
22 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger, I take it that you have a proofing time
23 with this witness?
24 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, the only proofing that took place with
25 this witness was to allow him to listen to approximately 25 to 28
1 intercepts and also a couple of videos so that if they were raised in
2 court, it would be -- it would reduce the amount of time necessary so
3 they wouldn't have to be played in their entirety again. But beyond
4 that, under these circumstances, there was no conventional proofing in
5 the manner the Court is inquiring.
6 JUDGE KWON: And you are aware of those parts in relation to
7 which the witness wishes to augment or change his evidence?
8 MR. TIEGER: I have no more information than the Court has at
9 this point. We provided -- essentially when Mr. Prstojevic arrived, and
10 he can confirm this, I indicated to him what the Court schedule would be,
11 advised him of the process involving 92 ter, he essentially confirmed his
12 Krajisnik testimony, but indicated he would like to listen to it again,
13 and then also listen to the intercepted telephone conversations over the
14 course of the next -- of the following days, and the audiotapes of the
15 Krajisnik testimony.
16 JUDGE KWON: Of course, the Chamber will hear how you can manage
17 with the witness in terms of augmentation or revision of his previous
18 document. I'm just asking, maybe thinking aloud, how burdensome it will
19 be if you are ordered to lead his evidence live, viva voce.
20 MR. TIEGER: Well, the burden versus the efficiency is impossible
21 to know at this point. Perhaps we can find out from -- as I say, my
22 understanding from two previous contacts with Mr. Prstojevic was that he
23 stood by the Krajisnik testimony, and so there was no --
24 JUDGE KWON: In relation to the cross-examination?
25 MR. TIEGER: No, no in the entirety of the testimony as
1 I understood it from both contact through the OTP in 2009, which is --
2 and also the most recent contact. It may well be that the corrections or
3 augmentation that Mr. Prstojevic has in mind are of such a nature, and
4 that's what I would have anticipated given the information he provided us
5 before, that they will take approximately -- hopefully ten minutes or so.
6 In that case, I think it's more efficient to move forward with the 92 ter
7 process. Otherwise, if we are looking at a lengthy process, then the
8 Court may be correct that we are better advised approaching this in a
9 different manner.
10 JUDGE KWON: Very well. We'll see how the witness confirms the
11 veracity of his previous testimony. And we'll deal with it when we have
12 seen his evidence in relation to that part.
13 MR. TIEGER:
14 Q. So, Mr. Prstojevic, if we can proceed, again I would ask you to
15 be as succinct and concise as possible in making whatever corrections you
16 have to make. And with respect to your CV, again, if there is something
17 of significance that you think really merits clarification, that's fine,
18 but I don't think the record has to be augmented with your complete
20 A. All right. I will add. But Mr. Tieger, I apologise to you even
21 though I shouldn't have to apologise. On the 22nd -- on the
22 26th of February, 2011, when we talked together I literally told to you
23 I accept and will not deviate anywhere from what I said in the -- my
24 testimony in the Krajisnik case. But since I am now testifying in regard
25 to a different person, that I came without any preparation or talks, that
1 I have some details that I needed to clarify and add. I have some
2 arguments I need to state and put some questions, and, if necessary,
3 I would need to mention some witnesses. So in order to be as brief as
4 possible I just wanted to mention a few things regarding my CV.
5 What is important to add to my biography is that on the 1st of
6 December 1991, I was a secretary in the inspection service. Then on
7 the --
8 THE INTERPRETER: The witness is kindly asked to read a little
9 bit more slowly for the transcript.
10 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Prstojevic, I'm sorry to not understand B/C/S so
11 we have to rely on interpreters, so they will be benefited if you speak a
12 bit slower. If -- in particular, when you read out something, please
13 slow down. So could you start again after you were a secretary in the
14 inspection service?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 28th of June, 1991, I became
16 the head of the municipal board of the Ilidza SDS as a volunteer. On the
17 5th of April, 1992, I was the president of the municipality of Ilidza
18 until the end of the war.
19 I would like to add that before the war, I was a reserve officer,
20 sergeant class 1, and I received a lot of awards and received recognition
21 for a number of training exercises, as a leader of an artillery company
22 and so on and so forth.
23 I was promoted captain on the 28th of June 1993.
24 What is important, though, is this: I want to say that
25 throughout the whole war, I was a member of the Ilidza Brigade as a
1 soldier, regardless of rank, and that in critical points in time I would
2 lock the municipal building, I would release the administration service,
3 and I would take up a rifle and fight as a regular soldier, as an
4 infantryman. I often would place the still-smoking gun, lean it against
5 the wall and pick up the telephone in order to complete some other
6 administrative business.
7 This would be what I wanted to say about my CV.
8 And now I would like to add some things that I had in relation to
9 the Krajisnik testimony.
10 MR. TIEGER: Excuse me --
11 JUDGE KWON: Do not overlap with the interpretation.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We would just need to intervene
13 that the witness just said that after he said that he leaned his
14 still-smoking rifle, that smelled of gunpowder and had to carry out his
15 work in such a psychological state. Perhaps you can ask the witness if
16 he confirms that.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. I'll leave it.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Several times.
20 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger.
21 MR. TIEGER:
22 Q. Mr. Prstojevic, you were going to proceed. Mr. Karadzic's
23 intervention should be a reminder that you'll need to speak at such a
24 pace that the interpreters can keep up.
25 A. All right. Can we move on to these additions in relation to the
1 Krajisnik case?
2 Q. Please.
3 A. The first addition has to do with 093, that instruction for
4 working in emergencies. In addition to the forementioned persons, in
5 attendance was also the commander of the Territorial Defence,
6 Dragan Markovic. And I saw from the Krajisnik testimony and also with
7 my --
8 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Prstojevic, we don't follow what that 93 is.
9 Could you help us, Mr. Tieger? That should refer to an exhibit number in
11 MR. TIEGER: Yes, P960, Your Honour. It's now P960 in our case
12 and in the -- I think it's labelled as such in the associated exhibits as
14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Sorry for interruption. Mr. Prstojevic,
15 could you begin from when you saw from the Krajisnik testimony and please
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was the Republican Assembly of
18 the Serb people of the Serb Democratic Party that was attended by over
19 500 persons. That is what I wish to say with regard to that question.
20 MR. TIEGER:
21 Q. Okay. Thank you. Next?
22 A. May I proceed? Second question: A conversation with
23 Mr. Tomo Kovac, chief of the public security station of Ilidza, and
24 Cedo Kljajic, a high-ranking official of the Centre of Public Security
25 Services in Vraca, the 20th of April, 1992. This is the moment when
1 Cedo Kljajic is reporting to our chief in Ilidza that all the Muslim
2 leaders in the MUP were asked to come to the Presidency of
3 Bosnia-Herzegovina with regard to an agreement to attack Ilidza.
4 One member of the Trial Chamber asked whether they went out there
5 to reach agreement to tear down the barricades. I wish to explain this.
6 On all roads at that time there were check-points. People were still --
7 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Are you in the position to tell us
8 what page it is?
9 MR. TIEGER: That's a reference -- oh, I can do so, Your Honour.
10 First of all, it's at pages 14545 through -46, and 14559 through -61, and
11 I believe that's a reference to 65 ter 30689.
12 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Please continue, Mr. Prstojevic.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On all roads, there were people
14 coming and going to and from work. As they did. And also trucks with
15 food. However, there were machine-gun nests around them because the
16 armies were facing each other because there was a war going on. We
17 already had casualties. We had people who were dead and wounded by then.
18 Already on the 27th of April, that is to say only within seven days,
19 according to official sources, both Muslim sources and our own, there
20 were about 1.000 dead persons in Sarajevo, both Serbs and Muslims. That
21 means that I want to point out that there was a war going on. The war
22 practically started on the 3rd of April in Ilidza. And I can say
23 something else. I can refer to another document. Already on the 15th of
24 April, Muslim units that were attacking us said that they ran out of
25 ammunition. I have those documents with me.
1 MR. TIEGER:
2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Prstojevic. Let me only say that, please, rather
3 than make corrections and expand with argumentation, if you can just make
4 the correction as simply and directly as possible, that will expedite the
6 If you could move to the next one, please.
7 A. You have a document that is summons to a Serb soldier who was
8 thinking of his fatherland. I cannot understand, yet again, what the
9 problem is with that document and what kind of a problem you have with
10 that document because that wasn't discussed at that point in time.
11 Q. Mr. Prstojevic, by way of guidance, and I believe the Court would
12 have offered the same, that is not in the nature of a correction to your
13 testimony but a reaction to, I gather, what you think either the
14 Prosecution, the Defence or the Judges were thinking about it. So if you
15 could focus on the testimony you gave, and any augmentation specifically
16 or correction specifically to that, rather than trying to argue with an
17 unseen interlocutor, that would be much appreciated.
18 A. I am not carrying on a discussion with an invisible interlocutor.
19 Mr. Tieger, you are accusing me on account of that document, saying that
20 it is proof of something that is contrary to international conventions
21 related to war. So let us see what this is all about. I personally
22 wrote that document.
23 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Prstojevic, whether or not Mr. Tieger is
24 criticising you, the answer given at the time was a correct one?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was correct, but I don't
1 understand at all why I'm being accused and that's what I wanted to hear.
2 MR. TIEGER:
3 Q. Mr. Prstojevic, let's be clear about the process we are engaged
4 in now. I will be attempting -- I will be asking you additional
5 questions, attempting to elicit information from you, which -- to which I
6 will be expecting responses that are focused on the question. The
7 accused will be doing the same for many hours, I might add, so you'll
8 have ample opportunity, I suspect, to delve into whatever issues you may
9 have in mind, and the Court may also ask questions. So whatever you may
10 think the implications of the questions are, that is the purpose, and
11 you're not being accused in this manner, you're being asked questions,
12 and asked to respond to those questions.
13 If I could ask you then to move on to your next correction,
15 A. The next correction is the declaration on the work of the Serb
16 Democratic Party in wartime conditions. The Prosecutor is dealing with
17 our declarative introduction. This involves romantic rhetoric but it is
18 true. It doesn't deal with a single one of our tasks. What it is that
19 we are going to strive for during the war and what we are going to try to
20 carry out, and what I stand by.
21 Q. Thank you. Next?
22 A. Next one is a MUP document of the 20th of September, 1993. I had
23 it in my hands briefly in the courtroom. The Chamber said that they did
24 not understand my answers and my comments in relation to that document.
25 Could I please have insight into this document and may I provide my
1 comments with regard to that document yet again so that the Trial Chamber
2 would understand me?
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Please proceed. Would you like to make some
4 different observation on that document from what you gave in earlier
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Absolutely not. I have no
7 idea what the document is about, but if I were to read it, then I could
8 explain and then the Trial Chamber would understand.
9 JUDGE KWON: I don't follow, Mr. Tieger. Could you help us?
10 MR. TIEGER: Yes. I think this is an invitation by the witness
11 to be given an opportunity to review and comment on something further,
12 and I -- it seems to me that either party or the Court is free during the
13 course of his examination and his testimony here to do so, but I don't
14 think it falls within the purview of the current exercise of correcting
15 the statement. As I understand it, the comments given in response during
16 the Krajisnik testimony were accurate. It's something that the witness
17 would like to have an opportunity to do. Anybody can take that on board
18 given the time we have but I think we can move on to the next correction.
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Let's hear him out about the points you want
20 to make. Yes, please proceed, Mr. Prstojevic.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The next thing I wish to say is in
22 it relation to the decision of the 2nd of April, 1993. It's a decision
23 of the War Presidency of the Serb Municipality of Ilidza on banning the
24 return of Croats and Muslims. I have some documents here that explain
25 the situation and everything else.
1 MR. TIEGER:
2 Q. Mr. Prstojevic, let me ask you if the information you provided in
3 connection with your testimony about that document was accurate or if
4 there is something specific you want to correct about what you said
5 during the Krajisnik case about the decision of the War Presidency on
6 banning the return of Croats and Muslims?
7 A. The information that I provided is correct. However, now I have
8 some information to the effect that immediately when this decision was
9 being implemented, we received 150 Croat families on the basis of the
10 approval given by the HVO of Kiseljak whereby they were allowed to leave
11 Kiseljak and that was during the month when that decision was valid. I
12 have the document here with me.
13 JUDGE KWON: Very well. And your next point?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The next correction has to do with
15 the 17th session of the People's Assembly of the Republika Srpska, the
16 date is the 24th of July, 1992. If I knew then what I know now, I would
17 not have commented upon that document at all. I am convinced that the
18 OTP does not have the original document from our Assembly from Pale.
19 Yesterday, I saw the initial part of the document that was typed out on
20 our Cyrillic typewriter, and then somebody started typing on a typewriter
21 that uses the Latin script, and that's not ours. Further on, in that
22 document, the key words, whereby the OTP is proving something or trying
23 to prove something, are translated, believe it or not, in three different
24 ways, one word is translated in three different ways. The Trial Chamber
25 has the word, "protjerali." I, in two documents, have the word,
1 "potisli," and then in another one, "potjerali." And there are other
2 translations there that are incorrect as well. However, why do I insist
3 on this so much? Mr. Tieger gave himself the right to say that it's one
4 and the same word, "protjerali" and "potisli," that these two words mean
5 the same thing in the Serbian language, which is completely incorrect.
6 It is like the sky and the earth. And I think that this part in the
7 Latin script is a forged document.
8 JUDGE KWON: So what you said about that document, 17th session
9 in Krajisnik trial, was false?
10 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, if I could intervene. This is
11 repetition of what the witness said in the Krajisnik case, essentially
12 with some expansion, and I think the witness will confirm that.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, Mr. Tieger, I cannot apologise
14 to you on account of things that I'm right about. When I am not in the
15 courtroom, you claim to the Trial Chamber that --
16 MR. TIEGER:
17 Q. Mr. Prstojevic, hold on a second, please. First of all, I'm not
18 quite sure how you know what happened when you weren't in the courtroom
19 but that's not the subject of what we are doing right now. We are
20 talking about your testimony in the Krajisnik case. Now, the question
21 I just asked you was whether or not during the course of the Krajisnik
22 case, you made essentially the same point about your speech at the
23 17th Assembly session in July 1992?
24 A. Yes. I did say that but on the CDs I heard the other day, and
25 that's how I know what you were talking about with the Trial Chamber, but
1 at any rate, I heard you convincing the Trial Chamber that it's one and
2 the same word. I was not in the courtroom then. Please listen to the
3 CD. Also, I saw that it wasn't our original document. It is not an
4 authentic document. It is not a court document.
5 Q. All right. So the information you gave to the Court in response
6 to questions concerning your speech at the 17th Assembly session during
7 the course of the Krajisnik case was accurate and you're reiterating your
8 concerns about that speech; is that correct?
9 A. Yes. But it means that I did not know those two things then.
10 Q. Okay. Next correction, please?
11 A. I think I have two more corrections. The next correction has to
12 do with the conversation between the minister of justice, Mr. Mandic, and
13 yours truly, on the 2nd of June 1992.
14 I would like it best if this conversation were to be replayed
15 here so that this Honourable Trial Chamber could hear this conversation,
16 because the Prosecutor was so persistent in trying to prove something
17 that was not actually the case, that that is quite astonishing.
18 Q. Mr. Prstojevic, was your testimony --
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. -- in connection with that conversation during the course of the
21 Krajisnik case accurate? And do you have anything about your testimony
22 or the information you provided about that that you wish to correct?
23 That document, I believe, is in evidence and the Court will have every
24 opportunity to listen to it.
25 A. The statement is correct, but I would like to explain. At the
1 moment of that conversation, Minister Mandic is sitting in Ilidza just
2 like me, except that he is at a position that has a better view and he
3 knows what is happening in Ilidza better than I do. And he cannot say,
4 when I ask him, where I presented an ultimatum, he cannot say that
5 because he doesn't have that kind of information. It's not correct.
6 My second addition, I am surprised and taken aback by this. I am
7 saying that he should go on speaking because I cannot realise what he is
8 on about, but I see that it's being interpreted as if I had confirmed
9 something to him.
10 Thirdly, we are not giving the names of the judges at all. As a
11 matter of fact, that falls under his jurisdiction. The sincerity of my
12 conversation can be seen at the very end when I go on opposing the
13 minister and when I say, "Oh, please, in relation to what the Muslims did
14 to the Serbs of Ilidza, I cannot do that."
15 Q. And your final correction, please, Mr. Prstojevic?
16 A. The last one is the most difficult one and I left it to the end.
17 It's an intercepted conversation of the 14th of May, 1992. At that time,
18 this was a person I did not know. When you listen to the conversation
19 several times, you can see who it is. I stand by the conversation here
20 as well but I would like it best if that were to be replayed again,
21 because the Prosecution is trying to prove on the basis of that that we
22 persecuted and deported the Muslim population, which is not correct.
23 This is precisely a conversation when I left my rifle aside, when
24 we had been fighting from 5.08 until twilight. We had eight dead within
25 our ranks, 50 wounded persons, and when I ran in from my visit to the
1 wounded, and it was at twilight, all of this was happening between 12.00
2 and 14.00 and that is what it was about. So the conversation did not
3 affect at all anything that had happened before 1400 hours.
4 Q. Thank you, Mr. Prstojevic. In fact, I'll be happy to go over
5 that conversation again during the course of your examination-in-chief.
6 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, with those corrections, I would tender
7 65 ter 22235.
8 JUDGE KWON: Can I hear from you, Mr. Robinson?
9 MR. ROBINSON: Well, Mr. President, I think if I was sitting on
10 the Chamber, I would want to hear this witness viva voce. But if you
11 feel that you're -- I think it's really your call, but I think it's
12 difficult to understand the Krajisnik testimony in light of the witness's
13 explanations for it, and it would be better if we all hear what he has to
14 say from scratch.
15 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger, I will hear.
16 MR. TIEGER: Thank you. I think it's quite the contrary. The
17 Court will have -- I'm going to go over various aspects of the events of
18 1992 and 1992 through 1995. The Court will be deprived of a tremendous
19 amount of courtroom effort and time, and a tremendous amount of
20 information that will illuminate both this witness's testimony and the
21 events. So the contrary is true, and we are going to be hearing
22 approximately, what, 13, 14 hours of testimony from this witness, so
23 there is plenty of viva voce testimony to come. It will be very, very
24 usefully augmented by 22235.
25 JUDGE KWON: I note the time is time to take a break. We'll
1 break for 15 minutes. And we will come back to that issue when we
3 --- Break taken at 2.00 p.m.
4 --- On resuming at 2.27 p.m.
5 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber, having considered Mr. Robinson's
6 proposal to hear Mr. Prstojevic viva voce, not pursuant to Rule 92 ter as
7 proposed by the Prosecution, agrees that in light of the extent of the
8 corrections made by the witness in court today, his evidence should be
9 led viva voce, as the Chamber is not satisfied that the third prong of
10 Rule 92 ter A is met in this case. Mr. Tieger, we will give you as much
11 time as you need for your direct.
12 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, if I may, I'm going to -- wouldn't
13 normally do this but I'd like to raise the matter quickly again, either
14 for clarification or for reconsideration, and I'd like to do that outside
15 the presence of the witness, if possible.
16 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
17 Mr. Prstojevic, there are some matters for us to discuss in your
18 absence, if you could excuse yourself.
19 [The witness stands down]
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger.
21 MR. TIEGER: As a preliminary matter, Your Honour, I raised
22 previously my concerns about both being confronted belatedly with
23 objections from the Defence to which the Prosecution has essentially no
24 time to respond. This is another instance. This matter has been a
25 92 ter matter for a long, long time, and in particular, what was tendered
1 as 92 ter was testimony under oath in front of this very institution.
2 Now, the Court referred to corrections he made. I agree that the witness
3 spoke for a long time but he didn't resile from a single thing he said.
4 He -- what he did instead was to argue the implications of some of the
5 evidence that was presented, to offer further emphasis on his
6 interpretation as he offered at the time, but he resiled from nothing.
7 The Prosecution fulfilled in full the terms of 92 ter. An objection was
8 raised under -- in -- I must say, a rather half-hearted objection was
9 raised in light of the fact, I would submit, that we had fully complied
10 with the terms of 92 ter, and the result is that we -- the possibility,
11 if this stands, of what I would consider to be an injustice, and that is
12 that we have to go over the same ground that this institution invested a
13 great deal of time in eliciting very carefully, with very lengthy
14 examination and very lengthy cross-examination, and by way of
15 illustration, Your Honour, I mean, it would be possible for me, of
16 course, to simply take this witness through the whole question and answer
17 process of his Krajisnik testimony, and should he deviate from any of
18 those answers then to take him back to that transcript. That process has
19 been completed under oath and the witness has affirmed it in its
20 entirety. I would urge the Court under the circumstances here, that is
21 the circumstances in which this was raised belatedly after the
22 Prosecution had noticed it, in view of the fact that his testimony under
23 oath, in view of the detail and utility of the information, and in light
24 of the fact that the witness did not resile from any of it, this complies
25 fully with 92 ter. I'm happy to invest time in various aspects of
1 eliciting information from the witness, which I intended to do anyway,
2 but it shouldn't gainsay the admission of the -- of 65 ter 22235, which
3 fully complies with the Rules and the practice of this institution and
4 indeed in this very case.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson, would you like to make observations in
7 response to Mr. Tieger's point?
8 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. First of all, I don't think
9 that this is that big of a deal. It's a question of time and it's a
10 question of how you want to hear the evidence, because Mr. Tieger will
11 have the opportunity to lead the witness chronologically through all of
12 these events and it will take a little longer, yes, but I think it will
13 make the evidence more clear. And I think he'd be advantaged by that as
14 well as the Chamber. So I am not sure why it's such a big point of
15 contention. The other thing is that I don't think that the witness has
16 really attested that the written transcript accurately reflects his
17 declaration of what he would say if he was examined. He's put so many
18 caveats on it that I think you're correct in having reservations about
19 whether the Rule itself under 92 ter(A)(3) has been satisfied. But our
20 feeling is basically that we are here to be sure the Chamber hears the
21 evidence in the best way possible so that you make the best possible
22 decision, and, therefore, we would leave it up to you.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger, we would stand by the ruling we just
25 made. First, it is always the Chamber's discretion whether or not to
1 order the witness to be led viva voce. So I don't see much injustice in
2 there. And second, although the witness confirmed what he said in the
3 trial of Krajisnik, given the corrections, augmentations or additions or
4 supplements, even in relation to those parts he didn't refer to, we are
5 not safely sure whether or not he will be saying the same answers when
6 asked again. So that's the crux of our ruling, and we are not minded to
7 reconsider the ruling we made.
8 MR. TIEGER: Well, Your Honour, maybe --
9 JUDGE KWON: The Court has made its ruling.
10 MR. TIEGER: I was going to suggest we could simply ask the
11 witness if -- who has -- who has not only testified under oath but just
12 listened to the entirety of his testimony and offered the elaborations
13 that he did with respect to that entire testimony, if he stands by his
14 testimony with -- in light of the comments he made and if his answers
15 would be the same with the exception of the expansions or argumentation
16 he offered. And that might resolve it. I'm sorry, Your Honour, to do
17 that, but part of the problem was that -- as I pointed out more than
18 once, is that the witness was simply repeating the same argumentation he
19 offered during the course of the Krajisnik case, so it was -- they were
20 not corrections, they were further efforts to make the same point or
21 underscore the same point that he made during the course of his
22 testimony, which is why he stood by it.
23 JUDGE KWON: But addition or argumentation is part of changes,
24 corrections, aren't they?
25 MR. TIEGER: I think that's a dangerous road to go down. The
1 Rule, as I recall, asks whether or not the witness -- first of all, it's
2 a funny rule when you think about testimony given under oath, which is
3 already a little bit different from a declaration out of court to which
4 the witness attests and says, I'd say the same thing in court. Now
5 you're asking the witness, Would you say the same thing in court you said
6 in court? Be that as it may, in this case, the question nevertheless
7 remains: Does the witness attest that the declaration he gave previously
8 is accurate and he stands by it and would provide the same answers, and
9 I'm -- the fact that he wishes to reargue it or use it as a platform for
10 providing other information he thinks the Court might want to have or
11 might -- he might wish the Court to have, doesn't affect compliance with
12 92 ter.
13 JUDGE KWON: I see the point, but we've made that ruling for the
14 reasons that it would be safe and clearer to the Chamber in understanding
15 the context of the witness's evidence. Let's bring in the witness.
16 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, while we are bringing in the
17 witness, it's my understanding from speaking with Mr. Tieger that the
18 testimony of this witness is going to be interrupted so that on Tuesday
19 we hear the testimony of another witness. I'll just indicate that's our
21 JUDGE KWON: We allow the Prosecution to liaise with the witness
22 or via the VWS for the purpose of scheduling matters. And we allow the
23 Defence to have ten hours for its cross-examination, but since the
24 evidence in-chief is to be led live, we may reconsider the amount of time
25 later on.
1 [The witness takes the stand]
2 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Prstojevic, during your absence we decided that
3 your evidence is to be led viva voce so we'll not rely on your prior
4 testimony. So you will give your testimony anew in this trial.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
6 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger.
7 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
8 Q. Mr. Prstojevic, you augmented your CV, but that was an
9 augmentation that was based on the transcript so let me ask you just a
10 couple of questions about your background. You became president of the
11 municipal board of the SDS on June 28, 1991; is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And, Mr. Prstojevic, I know you have the habit, I know from the
14 Krajisnik case, you have the habit of writing down questions sometimes,
15 and I see now you're actually referring to a notebook. We would
16 appreciate being advised if you're testifying from your own memory or if
17 you're referring to a document and relying on a document.
18 A. I'm going to testify on the basis of my memory. However, if the
19 Trial Chamber would allow me, I would use the original documents and some
20 notes of mine. Here is an example: As far as my CV is concerned,
21 I would like to consult my papers because I don't want to make a wrong
22 date. For example, I mentioned medical problem that I had and that
23 I mentioned during the Krajisnik case, and it happened in 1996.
24 Q. Okay. Thank you for that.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may be of assistance, the
1 transcript does not reflect which kind of medical problem was in
3 MR. TIEGER: That may be because nobody asked him about his
4 medical problem and I'd like to conduct this examination-in-chief without
5 any unnecessary interventions.
6 JUDGE KWON: Let's proceed, yes.
7 MR. TIEGER: Mr. Prstojevic --
8 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Were you referring to the omission
9 in the interpretation?
10 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President.
11 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Prstojevic, did you -- what did you say about
12 medical problem? Did you specify your medical problem?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1996, I had a cold, and when a
14 bridge was being opened --
15 JUDGE KWON: My question was in answering the previous question
16 by Mr. Tieger. Did you specify what medical problems you had?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that I had a light stroke
18 on the left-hand side, and after that, I'm suffering from a degree of
19 forgetfulness or I sometimes have a tendency of misspeaking. I have one
20 thing in mind and I say something different.
21 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Those kind of interpretation issues can
22 be clarified outside the courtroom with the assistance of CLSS, with the
23 assistance of tape. Let's proceed, Mr. Tieger.
24 MR. TIEGER: Thank you.
25 Q. And Mr. Prstojevic, is it also correct that in January of 1992,
1 you became president of the Crisis Staff of the Serbian municipality in
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. All right. I'd like to begin by asking you a few questions about
5 the Serbian Democratic Party which I understand you joined in 1990; is
6 that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay. Can you explain to the Court, please, the structure of the
9 SDS; that is, whether it was a hierarchical organisation? If so, what
10 body or bodies were at the top, what was the -- what bodies were beneath
11 it and what the nature of the communication was?
12 A. I joined the Serbian Democratic Party on St. Peter's day which is
13 the 12th of July, 1990. I became actively involved one month before the
14 November elections in 1990. According to the organisational chart, the
15 top part of the party is actually the Assembly of the Serbian Democratic
16 Party. It is a body that has most members, and it is this body that
17 elects all other organs and officials in leading positions in the party.
18 After the Assembly comes the Main Board of the SDS. The Main Board of
19 the SDS has its own Executive Board or a government, as it were. In the
20 city of Sarajevo, there was also a city board. There were municipal
21 boards of the Serbian Democratic Party established in municipalities.
22 And finally, in local communes, we had local boards of the
23 Serbian Democratic Party. Ilidza had a municipal board and 21 local
24 boards of the Serbian Democratic Party.
25 Q. Did the local and municipal boards receive instructions or
1 directives from the higher bodies such as the Main Board or Assembly?
2 A. The Assembly did not issue directives. As a rule, this is done
3 on most occasions by the Executive Board or very seldom by the Main
4 Board. As a rule, the municipal boards operate in compliance with the
5 Statute of the Serbian Democratic Party of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
6 Q. Did the Main Board or the Executive Board -- apart from -- from
7 the municipal boards' efforts to comply with the Statute of the
8 Serbian Democratic Party, did municipal boards receive instructions or
9 directions from the Main Board or Executive Board?
10 A. One can reply in affirmative, but in the case of Sarajevo, one
11 needs to know that between these two organs, there was also the city
12 board, and that was our main hub for communication and co-operation, and
13 I was a member of the city board of the city of Sarajevo.
14 Q. Were municipal boards obliged to implement the directions or
15 instructions issued by the Main Board or Executive Board?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did the municipal boards -- let me ask you about the flow of
18 information up. Did the local boards report to the municipal boards, did
19 the municipal boards report back to the Executive Board and the municipal
20 board about their activities locally?
21 A. Of course that the local boards were responsible to the municipal
22 board, and the municipal board, depending on the requirements and needs,
23 would provide oral or verbal information to the city board, or if there
24 was some need or some directive from the Executive Board of the SDS, it
25 was possible to circumvent the city board and pass it on through a
1 different channel.
2 Q. Were you sometimes in direct contact with -- as president of the
3 Ilidza municipal board, were you sometimes in direct contact with the
4 Executive Board or Main Board?
5 A. Yes, with the Executive Board.
6 Q. And how frequently did that occur, or did that depend on the
7 particular issue involved?
8 A. That depended on the specific issue, but I would like to
9 emphasise that the president of the Executive Board of the SDS,
10 Mr. Velibor Ostojic, was the resident of Ilidza, i.e., our municipality.
11 Therefore, he was at our disposal without any limitations.
12 Q. And just to clarify, Mr. Prstojevic, is it correct that
13 Mr. Ostojic was the president of the Executive Board until approximately
14 July 1991, and thereafter, at least until the outbreak of the conflict or
15 so, the president of the Executive Board was Mr. Rajko Dukic?
16 A. I know nothing about any conflict, but I know that for one part
17 of 1991, Mr. Rajko Dukic was the president.
18 Q. Sorry about that. By conflict, that was a synonym for war. It
19 didn't mean a conflict within the party.
20 A. Yeah, but the war was not on at the time.
21 Q. Apart from minor deviations or discrepancies in compliance with
22 directions from the Main Board or Executive Board, was the local
23 leadership permitted not to implement any directions or instructions it
25 A. Some leaderships implemented things in full. Some did it in
1 part. But there were also some sloppy leaderships.
2 Q. Apart from inadequate local leaderships, was disobedience to or
3 failure to comply with directions from the party leadership tolerated?
4 A. Well, the party leadership often didn't know whether any
5 municipal board carried out something or not. But as far as the Ilidza
6 municipal board is concerned, this was the situation: We would mainly
7 carry out a directive, if we received one. However, if we believed that
8 a segment or certain segments of the directive did not apply to us, or
9 were unnecessary, or were redundant, we would not have carried them out.
10 Q. Well, Mr. Prstojevic, I didn't appreciate that my question was --
11 would be interpreted by you as referring to the necessity to -- by local
12 boards to interpret what was relevant to them. But my -- let me make
13 that question even more clear: Apart from the obvious aspect of
14 determining what directions or instructions applied to the local
15 municipality, if it was clear it applied to the local leadership, were
16 they duty-bound to implement it and would a failure to implement it be
17 tolerated by the party leadership?
18 A. Well, I gave you a specific answer. It was necessary to
19 implement them, but the Ilidza municipal board also didn't implement
20 everything, and did not -- and was not answerable for that to anyone.
21 Q. Well, let me ask you about something you said previously and ask
22 if that refreshes your recollection or if you can reconcile that for us.
23 On the 14th of June 2005, you were asked, and that's at page 14500:
24 "Did conclusions or directives issued by the Main Boards and
25 transmitted to the municipal and city boards have to be implemented by
1 the local boards or by the municipal and city boards?"
2 And your answer was:
3 "Absolutely. It is clear that it had to be implemented. There
4 might have been minor discrepancies, but in that case it would mean that
5 the local leadership would be disobeying the top leadership and that
6 would not have been tolerated on any occasion."
7 Now, that was testimony in the Krajisnik case, as I mentioned.
8 Was that accurate or not, Mr. Prstojevic, and -- first of all?
9 A. It's accurate. But I'm going to give you examples of them not
10 implementing any decisions, and I mentioned those examples in my
12 Q. And those are the examples you just gave of instructions that
13 were not relevant to the particular locale?
14 A. Yes.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I need to intervene. The witness
16 did not say who -- the ones that did not refer to the board but ones that
17 are not relevant. They don't -- that don't suit them.
18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, that can be clarified later on. Let's
20 MR. TIEGER:
21 Q. Mr. Prstojevic, I want to ask you about a particular instruction,
22 and with that in mind I'd like to call up P986, I believe the number is.
23 Of course, I've got the wrong number. That's P960 I apologise to the ...
24 just waiting for the document to come up in English, Mr. Prstojevic.
25 Mr. Prstojevic, in the screen in front of you is a document
1 entitled, "Instructions for the organisation and operations of organs of
2 the Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina in emergency conditions," dated
3 19 December 1991, with the heading at the top, "Serbian Democratic Party
4 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Main Board."
5 When did -- did officials in Ilidza, Mr. Prstojevic, receive this
6 document from the party leadership?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And when and where was that?
9 A. We received this document after this date, after the 19th of
10 December, at the Assembly of the Serbian People of Bosnia-Herzegovina at
11 the Holiday Inn Hotel.
12 Q. And was the -- when you say you received it at the Assembly, did
13 you receive it at an Assembly session or at the Assembly building or do
14 you recall?
15 A. This was a large gathering. I said a bit earlier that there must
16 have been more than 500 people there, with five people from Ilidza
17 present among them. I don't remember how we got the document, but I know
18 for a fact that it was not discussed at the meeting. There was no
19 discussion about that document at that session.
20 Q. Who was present at that meeting, Mr. Prstojevic? What -- what
21 kind of officials?
22 A. I was invited to the meeting as the president of the
23 Ilidza Serbian Democratic Party. The president of the Executive Board of
24 the Ilidza municipality, Mr. Radomir Kezunovic; the secretary of the
25 Municipal Assembly of Ilidza, Momcilo Ceklic. The meetings of this kind
1 were always attended by the people's deputy, Ljubo Bosiljcic, and also
2 the commander of the TO staff, Dragan Markovic, was also present. He was
3 also representing the Ilidza municipality. He was an official of the
4 Ilidza municipality.
5 Q. And what about from other municipalities, Mr. Prstojevic? Were
6 they represented in the same manner?
7 A. I think so. I assume that in the same way, the other
8 municipalities should have been represented. This kind of meeting is
9 usually attended by specific types of people, specific officials and
10 members, either of the government or the party bodies.
11 Q. What about members of the party leadership? Were they present?
12 A. As far as I can remember, our top party leaders attended, as well
13 as representatives in the organs of power of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Among
14 them, Mr. Nikola Koljevic and Mrs. Biljana Plavsic.
15 Q. Are those the only two party leaders in attendance whom you can
17 A. Mr. President, Dr. Radovan Karadzic, was also present.
18 Mr. Momcilo Krajisnik, Velibor Ostojic and many others. I don't need to
19 list all of them.
20 Q. Mr. Prstojevic, you say or you mentioned that there was no
21 discussion about the document at that session. Let me ask you -- direct
22 your attention to something you said before, see if that refreshes your
23 recollection at all about whether or not there was any discussion. At
24 page 14503, you were discussing the December 19th instructions, and you
25 were asked:
1 "And what was explained to the assembled people at the meeting
2 about the document?"
3 And your answer was:
4 "I can't remember in any great detail because it was a long time
6 And then you went on to talk about the fact that it was partly an
7 Assembly involving some elections and talk about everything that
9 "It is rather difficult to remember what exactly took place in
10 the course of that Assembly because it went on for several hours."
11 Now that seemed to indicate you couldn't recall in detail what
12 was discussed, Mr. Prstojevic. Does that refresh your recollection about
13 whether or not the document was discussed at all during the meeting?
14 A. It was clear to me then, and it's even more clear to me now, that
15 the document was not discussed. When you move further, you will see what
16 I said in Mr. Krajisnik's case. I don't know who took the document, at
17 the meeting, or in the hall, or in the corridor or somewhere. That point
18 in the event I did not register. I don't remember it.
19 Q. Did officials in Ilidza, including yourself, consider themselves
20 duty-bound to implement the agreement -- the instructions?
21 A. I personally thought that I should implement this instruction or
22 these instructions, for a number of reasons.
23 Q. And what were those reasons?
24 A. When somebody gave me these instructions, when I was in Ilidza,
25 and after I read them, I established that the instructions were drafted
1 on the basis of a book that I do have here with me. It's called, "The
2 strategy of All People's Defence and social self protection in wartime
3 and during immediate danger of war."
4 As an officer, and as a director, and with TO staffs located at
5 each enterprise, and because I was the president of the committee for
6 All People's Defence and social self protection, and also in view of the
7 fact that there was a committee in municipalities for All
8 People's Defence and social self protection, or ONODSZ, the president of
9 the -- that committee is -- the president of the municipality is
10 automatically the president of that committee. All that was practically
11 changed was the name. I could see that. Instead of socialist
12 terminology such as "Komitet," committee, the term Crisis Staff,
13 "Krizni Stab," was used, but the book I'm referring to, the wartime book,
14 recognises staffs, only doesn't refer to them as Crisis Staffs. When the
15 TO staff and the civilian protection staffs are merged, it immediately
16 becomes a committee.
17 Q. Mr. Prstojevic, I'm going to ask you some more questions about
18 what was implemented and what the nature of the document is, but let me
19 ask you quickly: Did Ilidza proceed to implement the instructions?
20 A. Yes, but partially.
21 Q. Now --
22 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I remember the time we had to adjourn
23 and it seems it's going to be difficult for me to get into the text of
24 the document in the limited time we have, which is 30 seconds. But I'm
25 in the Court's hands.
1 JUDGE KWON: It has been a long day. If necessary --
2 MR. TIEGER: It's not necessary, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE KWON: We'll adjourn for this week, and next week we have
4 two witnesses fixed for Tuesday and --
5 MR. TIEGER: For Wednesday and Thursday, I believe, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE KWON: Wednesday and Thursday. So we will continue with
7 Mr. Prstojevic on Tuesday --
8 MR. TIEGER: Correct.
9 JUDGE KWON: -- at 9.00.
10 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
11 JUDGE KWON: Did you not file a notification correcting the dates
12 that are fixed on 8th and 9th? Could you check it?
13 [Prosecution counsel confer]
14 MR. TIEGER: If you'll give me just a moment, Your Honour, I know
15 that part of this was the result of -- or part of our calculations were
16 the result of the confusion about the Monday and Tuesday sitting dates,
17 so I'm not sure if there has been the filing of the document which has
18 been inconsistent with my information while we are in court, let me check
19 on that, please.
20 JUDGE KWON: While you're checking, I'll hear from Mr. Karadzic.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 182 is planned for Tuesday and
23 Wednesday, yes. And after that, we are supposed to continue with
24 Mr. Prstojevic. When should the Defence prepare for the
25 cross-examination of such important witnesses? We are exposed to
1 different kinds of pressure. We can see all the resources that the
2 Prosecution has and still they are encountering problems.
3 JUDGE KWON: Frankly, I don't follow. I find it difficult to
4 follow. You don't have time to prepare for whom?
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Both, for both of them. If I have
6 one, then I can prepare well. But if I have two, then it's a large
7 burden; either/or, not both.
8 JUDGE KWON: You have more than sufficient time to prepare for
9 cross-examination. They were notified a long time ago.
10 MR. TIEGER: And, Your Honour, by way of clarification, whatever
11 is before -- I know there were prior pleadings that indicated, I think, a
12 different date but there is no -- I'm advised that the witness to whom we
13 have been referring, and I believe the number is 182, is fixed for
14 Wednesday and Thursday.
15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. So we'll continue with Mr. Prstojevic on
16 Tuesday at 9.00. And his evidence -- he will be interposed by
17 Witness 182, not by 354.
18 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour. Perhaps I should check on that.
19 Perhaps both because there is -- I think we have the -- I'd have to check
20 on whether or not we have an additional witness who is also fixed but for
21 a very, very brief time. I have some recollection about that but let me
22 double check on that as well.
23 JUDGE KWON: That being the case, Mr. Prstojevic may be
24 interposed yet again? Tuesday week?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I assist?
1 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, Mr. --
2 MR. TIEGER: Sorry to interrupt. Just for clarification, the
3 witness I was referring to - and I'm not going to refer to the witness by
4 name, but by the KDZ number - the Court may recall it was a very brief
5 witness whose total allotted time, that's 359, was, I think, an hour and
6 a half for both the direct and cross-examination, and for various
7 reasons, we had fixed that witness for Thursday, but that would have been
8 Wednesday and Thursday, as I mentioned, were already allotted to
9 completing the examination of 182.
10 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Prstojevic? What was it that you wanted to
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have been informed that
13 I continue my testimony on the 8th of March of this year, and that before
14 that, there will be other witnesses.
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We will hear you on 8th of March, next
17 MR. TIEGER: And perhaps it's useful to note at this time or at
18 least it perhaps shouldn't be omitted, given the length of
19 cross-examination, it's probably worth noting we have a fixed witness for
20 the week after next week as well.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Maybe introduce the third shift
22 then, perhaps.
23 JUDGE KWON: For planning purpose, probably you may be in the
24 position to indicate to the Chamber how much time you would need for your
25 examination-in-chief of this witness.
1 MR. TIEGER: I'm trying to -- I'll do my best but I'm not in a
2 position to do that at the moment.
3 JUDGE KWON: Next week.
4 MR. TIEGER: Of course.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I then know when I am to
6 cross-examine Mr. Prstojevic? Because probably Mr. Tieger would need the
7 whole of Tuesday and perhaps he would need a few more days after that.
8 JUDGE KWON: That's high mathematics. We will adjourn. Thanks
9 for the indulgence of the interpreters and court reporters and other
10 staff. Everybody have a nice, restful weekend.
11 Tuesday at 9.00.
12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.22 p.m.,
13 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 8th day of March,
14 2011, at 9.00 a.m.