Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 15689

 1                           Thursday, 30 June 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.  Yes.  I heard that you had

 6     something to raise, Mr. Karadzic.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Excellencies.

 8     Yes.  I wanted to state the position of the Defence concerning the time

 9     we have available for this witness.  This witness has more than 200

10     paragraphs.  There are several hundreds allegations, very general

11     statement which can and must be questioned, challenged, and refuted.  If

12     the Defence does not get this opportunity, then any of these allegations

13     may become a basis for a sentencing judgement regardless of whether the

14     Trial Chamber or an Appeals Chamber would give weight to this witness.  I

15     don't even have one full minute for each allegation which he expresses.

16     And in addition to that, we still need to cover in full, Zvornik,

17     Bijeljina, on the ground, Vojkan Djurkovic, Brcko, the supposed sins of

18     the police of Republika Srpska and high officials of Republika Srpska and

19     my and my family's connection with criminals and so on and so forth.  The

20     Defence can clarify and prove all of that if it is given the opportunity.

21     If it is not, then it makes no point to defend oneself.  With such

22     witnesses who are so general and free to state unfounded claims, if the

23     Defence has no chance to challenge that, and this is only a question of

24     time.  So I would ask to be given this day and tomorrow for this witness.

25     It will be easier for the Trial Chamber to see everything, because these

Page 15690

 1     witnesses have managed to put the Prosecution on the wrong track, and

 2     they can do the same thing with the Trial Chamber, so as not to delude

 3     the Trial Chamber.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the accused please repeat the last

 5     sentence.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I notice that we were very

 7     efficient last week.  As for Belgrade, this has not been recorded.  We

 8     have the transcript of his testimony at the court in Belgrade.  It was

 9     the trial of people from Zvornik connected with the Yellow Wasps, and the

10     Trial Chamber should see this.  The Defence will present that.

11             We were efficient last week.  You concluded that yourselves.

12     Seven witnesses for five days, and for me personally and for the Defence

13     as a whole, this rhythm was very exhausting, but if it is, we should have

14     enough time available to question each witness as necessary.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. President, excuse me.  Your microphone seems to

17     be on.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

20             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry, Your Honour.  It appeared that one of the

21     microphones was on.  I just wanted to alert the Court, and I think the

22     registrar took care of that.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, we allowed you seven hours for your

Page 15691

 1     cross-examination, and you have spent almost five hours, so two hours

 2     left.  That's my understanding.  If you use till the end of today, you

 3     will have in total nine and a half, extra two and a half in addition to

 4     the original seven hours.  So that's the time you will have for your

 5     cross-examination, Mr. Karadzic.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I will try to cover as

 7     many topics as I can in that time, but I'm afraid I might make errors due

 8     to speeding up.

 9             JUDGE MORRISON: [Previous translation continues] ... Dr.

10     Karadzic, can I simply suggest that you concentrate on the specific

11     matters and leave out the general ones.  In terms of allocation of time,

12     I think you'll be better served that way.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Let's bring in the witness.

14             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour --

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Yes, Madam Uertz-Retzlaff.

16             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I would like to raise a

17     redaction of matter.  It's about redaction of transcript, and I would

18     like to do this orally so that the Defence also is aware of why we do

19     that, but it needs to be in private session.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll go back -- go into private session.

21                           [Private session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

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25                           [Open session]

Page 15693

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Let's bring in the witness.

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, while we're doing that, I would

 3     like to advise you that with respect to the Prosecution's motion for

 4     leave to reply concerning the ICMP motion, we object to grounds 1 and 2,

 5     and we don't object to them replying on ground 3.  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 7                           [The witness takes the stand]

 8                           WITNESS:  MILORAD DAVIDOVIC [Resumed]

 9                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

10             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, Mr. Davidovic.  I hope you had a good

11     rest.  Yes.  We'll try hard to conclude your evidence today.  In the

12     meantime, I would appreciate it if you could concentrate on answering the

13     questions in a brief manner.

14             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.  Please continue your cross-examination.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Davidovic.

18        A.   Good morning, Mr. Karadzic.

19        Q.   I want to show you a document.  Did you know the

20     National Assembly of Republika Srpska adopted a law on the obligation to

21     submit information about the commission of crimes and that I promulgated

22     this law on the 4th of January, 1994, in early 1994.  It obliged everyone

23     who knew anything about crimes to submit the relevant documents.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D7835.  1D3785, excuse me.

25             Unfortunately, the translation is not completed yet.

Page 15694

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Can you please have a look whether this is a decree on the

 3     promulgation of the law on obligatory submission of information about

 4     committed crimes against humanity and the international law.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Can we please see the next page.  As you know, the laws are

 7     adopted by the Assembly, and the president declares them to be in force.

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Do you agree that it says here that whoever has information or

10     items which may be used to prove crimes against humanity and

11     international law that were committed during internal armed conflict and

12     the civil war in the territory of Republika Srpska and other territory of

13     the former Bosnia-Herzegovina, which began in 1992 and which as specific

14     crimes are described under chapter 16 of the Criminal Code of Republika

15     Srpska is obliged to put these items or information at the disposal or,

16     as necessary, submit them to a relevant body and so on and so forth?

17        A.   Yes.  One can see from the law that it is emphasised what is the

18     purpose of all this, but if you would allow me, I would make a comment.

19             When I was in the territory of Republika Srpska in 1992, I

20     informed and warned Minister Mico Stanisic that a team should be set up

21     or a department or a separate organ which would be a part of the MUP and

22     which would deal only with the crimes which had been committed and had

23     not been investigated, though there was information about that.  He

24     agreed, but I can see that it was only in April 1994 that there was an

25     attempt to do that.  Was that too late?  It's never too late, but perhaps

Page 15695

 1     this should have been done from the first day.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Davidovic, you answered the question, and you

 3     proceeded to make further comments.  I would appreciate it if you make

 4     your answers a bit simpler unless requested by the accused or by the

 5     Chamber.

 6             Yes.  Please proceed, Mr. Karadzic.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Just to clarify this, Mr. Davidovic.  Do you agree that this is a

10     law which obliges others who have such information and that perhaps the

11     ministry or the government did set up specific bodies or the like, as you

12     had proposed?  Is there such a possibility?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Can we please see the last page, Article 6.  It

15     reads:

16              "Whoever refuses to place at the disposal of a relevant body for

17     the collection of information on crimes against humanity or international

18     law which have been committed as described under Article 1, paragraph 1

19     of this law or who prevents such submission shall be sentenced for a

20     crime by a fee or a prison sentence of up to one year."

21             So do we have a punishment included here for the suppression of

22     such documents or information?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please have this admitted?

Page 15696

 1             JUDGE KWON:  What is the 65 ter number of this?  It's 3750

 2     instead of 7835.  Yes.  I confirmed it.  That will be marked for

 3     identification.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI 1424, Your Honours.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D3785 is actually 3785.  That

 6     should be the 65 ter number.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Correct.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Then there might be a translation

 9     as well.  Fine.  Could we now please have 1D3779.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Do you agree that this is my order to the Main Staff of the Army

12     of Republika Srpska, to the Supreme Court-Martial, and the Military

13     Prosecutor's Office dated the 15th of December, 1994 by which I order

14     that there should be co-operation with the Supreme Court-Martial and

15     prosecutor's office of the army in accordance with the law and that

16     instructions be issued to security organs in order to enable the

17     operation of judiciary tasks?

18        A.   I'm sorry, I just can't see the date.

19        Q.   You can see it in the English version.

20        A.   Oh, yes.  The 15th of December.  Yes, I confirm that this order

21     relates to your order on the activities the relevant organs.

22        Q.   Do you agree that this is strictly confidential, that this is an

23     internal document and that it says that the order must be executed by the

24     15th of January, 1995, and that I must be informed?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 15697

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can it be admitted?

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1425, Your Honours.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now please see 1D3770.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Can you please have a look at these two versions, Serbian or

 8     English, whichever you find more legible.  On the 5th of January, 1995,

 9     the military prosecutor, Lieutenant-Colonel Nebojsa Supic, acted in

10     accordance with my previous order and says:

11             "In regard to the order of the president of the republic of 15th

12     of December 1994, we enclose instructions," which I ordered should be

13     drawn up and disseminated.

14             Can we please see the following page?

15             He had already drawn it up on the 29 of December, and on the 5th

16     of January he sent it, and it is prescribed here what the military police

17     and the security organs are obliged to do in order to help military

18     courts and military prosecutor's offices.

19             Do you agree that while you were there neither civilian nor

20     military judiciary were fully developed and there were -- there was also

21     confusion about the jurisdiction of the courts and prosecutors' offices?

22        A.   Yes, you are right about that.

23        Q.   Can we please show the following page just for the witness's

24     inspection.  We don't have to read out anything, but I would like the

25     witness to see what were all the things that were envisaged.

Page 15698

 1             It says here in the penultimate paragraph:

 2             "On the basis of collected information, security organs shall

 3     draw up a criminal report in which they will state the evidence which

 4     were found when information was being collected ..."

 5             And so on and so forth.

 6             Is this the usual ending of the previous procedure?

 7        A.   Yes.  Instructions are issued with all details about how to act.

 8     This is not contested.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Would you like to read through it or can you

10     recognise this as the usual working procedure?

11        A.   This is instructions on work.  It is clear, and there is no room

12     for any improvisation.

13        Q.   Can we please see the last page.  Would you agree that it is

14     ordered here that it should be ensured that an on-site investigation is

15     carried out, that warrant arrests should be implemented and so on?

16        A.   Yes.  These are all activities which are envisaged for criminal

17     prosecution or as part of it.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have this admitted, please?

20        A.   Yes.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D1426, Your Honours.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we now please have

23     65 ter 13395.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, can we see from these documents that the time of

Page 15699

 1     chaos was over and that the rule of law is being implemented?

 2        A.   Yes, I agree.  This is already 1994 and 1995.  After the

 3     Vance-Owen Plan, many things changed.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Can I now ask you to have a look at this.  It's

 5     Republika Srpska, the president of the republic is writing to the

 6     National Assembly of Republika Srpska.  It is a proposal of conclusions

 7     in order to improve the situation in the domain of penal policy.

 8             Would you agree and are you aware that the president of the

 9     republic is authorised to send such proposals of conclusions to the

10     Assembly, even proposal of laws and other documents?

11        A.   I agree.  This is your right and your obligation.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Can you now please have a look at the overview.  It

13     says here in the first paragraph:

14              "On the basis of information prepared by the Ministry of Justice

15     and administration it shows that in 1994, out of a total of 175.527 cases

16     the number of cases that remained undecided in the regular courts was

17     76.466 or 43 per cent.  In other words, they did resolve almost 100.000

18     case.

19        A.   Yes.  Or 49 per cent.

20        Q.   Yes, they did not decide in 43 per cent; correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And in 1993, 49 were unsettled and then it says according to the

23     data on penal policy in the regular courts in 1994, provided by the

24     republican prosecutor's office, the situation without the Bijeljina

25     senior public prosecutor's office is as follows and then we have the

Page 15700

 1     information.  It's for 1994; correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   The total is 102 -- 1.256 convictions.  Of this, prison sentences

 4     304 -- or 504?  No, 304.  And then fines and everything else.

 5             Can we please see the next page, and in English we can keep the

 6     one we see on the screen now.

 7             Now, after number 14:  "Proceeding only from the number of

 8     convictions and approved appeals, I have concluded that on the whole the

 9     situation in the area of penal policies unsatisfactory."

10             Can we see the next page in English and have the same page in

11     Serbian.

12             Which can have detrimental consequences, et cetera.  Now it says:

13              "Taking advantage of its constitutional powers --

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Would Mr. Karadzic please read more slowly.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, without showing the proper page, the

16     interpreters have difficulty in following you.  Otherwise, please -- you

17     have to slow down.  We changed the page, and then you just kept that

18     speed.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The Serbian page is correct.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   That was a preamble.  Let us leave the conclusions, all courts,

22     in English.

23             Is it the case that I am suggesting to the National Assembly to

24     adopt these conclusions:

25              "1.  All courts (regular and military) shall be required to step

Page 15701

 1     up their work on all cases, especially in criminal cases."

 2             And since we can all read for ourselves, do you agree that there

 3     are five conclusions here?  We can't see the fifth in Serbian.  The

 4     second conclusion is that all courts be required to pass more stringent

 5     sentences so that if sentencing range is 1 to 5, they should sentence to

 6     5.  Then the Ministry of the Interior should intensify its work on

 7     detecting perpetrators.  Then 4, that the public prosecutor and supreme

 8     military prosecutor report to the Assembly every three months on the

 9     situation in the area of penal policy and the problems related.

10             Can we see the last page in Serbian.

11             "The working group for drafting of a uniform Criminal Code is

12     required," et cetera, et cetera.

13             You are familiar with our political system.  Does the president

14     of the republic have other tools at his disposal except to suggest to the

15     government and the Assembly certain measures that he believes should be

16     taken?  Can he do anything else apart from the MUP, et cetera?

17        A.   No.  No, nothing except what can be seen from these orders.

18     These are your constitutional responsibilities and powers, as far as I

19     know.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1427, Your Honours.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 15702

 1        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, the Defence is required to shed light and elicit

 2     details concerning your statement to make sure what is what.  In

 3     paragraph 158 of your statement, you described your encounter with

 4     Vojkan Djurkovic.  He asked you, "Who do you think you are, protecting

 5     the Muslim?"  Et cetera, et cetera.  And then in his defence, he showed

 6     you a paper, a document, signed by Mr. Krajisnik authorising him to expel

 7     Muslims.  In other words, to carry out a humane removal or transfer of

 8     the Muslim people using the police, et cetera.  And then you say you

 9     approached Dragan Micic, an MP at the National Assembly of

10     Republika Srpska.  You told him what you had seen, that document, et

11     cetera, et cetera, and Micic told you then that he was unhappy about the

12     expulsions of Muslims and he had discussed the situation with Djurkovic

13     himself.  Djurkovic had shown him the same document.  Djurkovic did not

14     hide the fact that he had that document or who had got it from, and he

15     said he had seen Krajisnik -- Micic had said he had seen Krajisnik about

16     seven or ten days later, and Krajisnik told him to stay out of it.

17             65 ter, please --

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Would Mr. Karadzic repeat the number.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Please repeat the number.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 7066.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   This is a decision appointing a war commissioner's office for the

23     municipality of Bijeljina, and the members are named.  The first one is

24     Dragan Micic, MP.  Is that the same person?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 15703

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

 2             JUDGE KWON:  We don't have English translation of this.  We'll

 3     mark it for identification.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D1428, Your Honours.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   We can see from this that I appointed these people and authorised

 7     them to be war commissioners and to assist the authorities of Bijeljina;

 8     correct?  These were very prominent people, including Dragan Andjelic,

 9     President of the Executive Board; Dr. Jovo Vojnovic, vice-president of

10     the municipality; and a certain Mr. Arsenijevic, the manager of an

11     enterprise; correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Can we now see 1D3673.  Do you know that in the Krajisnik case,

14     Mr. Dragoljub Micic, whom we call Dragan, made a statement?  You

15     mentioned it yesterday.  He gave a statement to the Defence team of

16     Momcilo Krajisnik.  Do you recall saying that?

17             Are you receiving me?  Do you recall saying that?

18        A.   I've never seen this statement by Micic.  I'm just reading it.

19        Q.   I mean in the Krajisnik case.

20        A.   I mean the same thing.

21        Q.   We now ask Mr. Micic to give a statement for our case, and in

22     that statement he says Vojkan did not show him any authorisation to expel

23     Muslims, and he had no contact with Vojkan, in fact, and that he himself

24     initiated with the police that Djurkovic should be arrested, which was

25     done twice.  And then it says the leadership of SDS Bijeljina filed a

Page 15704

 1     criminal complaint against Vojkan Djurkovic.  All this is happening at

 2     the time when the SDS was the governing party in Bijeljina.

 3             Did you know that prominent people from the SDS and the municipal

 4     authorities filed criminal reports and Djurkovic was arrested?

 5        A.   In 1992 and 1993, I don't know that he was arrested.  He was

 6     brought in a couple of times for certain incidents, personal settlement

 7     of accounts, something of that sort, but that he was ever brought in for

 8     ethnic cleansing or expulsions of Muslims, I didn't know.  But if you

 9     allow me, can I say something about this statement by Micic?

10        Q.   Please, but briefly.

11        A.   You see, he denies that I was ever with him, that he showed me

12     that, and the distance between Vojkan Djurkovic and him is like 200

13     metres between their offices.  And as he told me, as he says in the last

14     paragraph, why did I state this.  And after that conversation with me, he

15     stopped any contact with him.  That's not true.  Instead, when I

16     returned, he said to me, "Please don't mix me up in that.  I don't want

17     to get involved.  I don't want any trouble."

18             I am in touch with him to date, and we participated in a public

19     debate together.  We were sitting together, the three or four of us.  So

20     what it says in this statement, of course it's his right to say whatever

21     he wants, but I have no reason to make up his involvement or anything.

22        Q.   Let me read part of this, which is important for the record.

23             "Based on the above, I assert --"

24             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour --

25             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, I just wanted to correct you.  What is

Page 15705

 1     denied by the witness has no bearing at all.  You said it is important

 2     for the record.  It is not.  Unless this is to be admitted, reading out

 3     the content of the statement has nothing to do with any factual

 4     assessment.  Take it into account.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6        Q.   Let me just say that in this statement Micic said he would not

 7     say good day to you, but he said you were not in touch, and he says he

 8     holds it against you that you gave an inaccurate statement; correct?

 9        A.   That's what's written here.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this statement be admitted?

11             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I --

12             JUDGE KWON:  I -- we don't need your assistance,

13     Madam Uertz-Retzlaff.

14             There's no basis to admit this at all, Mr. Karadzic.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's why I wanted to read the

16     gist of it.  The gist is that this witness -- this gentleman, Mr. Micic,

17     refutes what this witness is saying.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Put the question to the witness.  What is

19     important here is the witness's answer to the question.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  In that case it has

21     been answered.

22             Can we now see 1D3672.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   You say you don't know that he had been reported by prominent

25     representatives of the SDS for his treatment of Muslims.  You know that

Page 15706

 1     he was brought in for other offences.

 2        A.   Yes.  He was brought in because he got into brawls with some

 3     people, but I never heard that he was brought in for ethnic cleansing of

 4     the Muslims.  I've never had occasion to hear that, maybe you can show me

 5     something.  I know that he did that during the war without running into

 6     any trouble.

 7        Q.   Please take a look.  Is this a document from the president of the

 8     Bijeljina Municipal Assembly, chairman of the Executive Board of

 9     Bijeljina, president of the municipal SDS board, et cetera, to the public

10     security centre?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   "Request to bring in and start proceedings against citizen

13     Vojislav Djurkovic and his associate Risto Marjan from Bijeljina, because

14     on the night of 22nd and 23rd July, 1995, without the knowledge or

15     approval of the authorised representatives of Bijeljina municipality,

16     they took away by force about 50 Muslims from Mount Majevica."

17             And 2:  "Likewise at about noon on 23rd July 1995 in a public

18     place in the area outside the hospital in Bijeljina, before more than 100

19     people, Djurkovic publicly and loudly threatened and insulted the

20     people's deputy, that is, MP Dragoljub Micic, saying that he would muddy

21     the Drina River with a deputy."

22             Does it mean he would throw the man into the Drina River?

23        A.   That's probably what he meant.  Let's just look at the date.

24     That was written on 24 July 1995.

25        Q.   Thank you.  We can see that.

Page 15707

 1        A.   That's the end of the war.

 2        Q.   Does it say that he threatened he would take him to Tuzla himself

 3     and made other threats?

 4        A.   Yes.  That was not unusual for him.

 5        Q.   Can we see the next page in Serbian.  Can you see the signatures

 6     of these people?  We can see the signatures on the original report.

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And Dr. Novakovic is one of the signatories.

 9        A.   Yes.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have this admitted?

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1429, Your Honours.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Could you now look at paragraph 116 of your statement, 116.  You

16     say that Jelisic -- I'll read in English.

17             [In English] "Jelisic asked me who I was and spoke for so long

18     that the call was traced.  So Jelisic was arrested only to be released by

19     following day.  Dr. Milan Novakovic, president of the Bijeljina Municipal

20     Board of the SDS announced on radio that the Jelisic factory was the most

21     productive at expulsion of the -- and murder of Muslims."

22             [Interpretation] Is that the same Novakovic whose name we saw on

23     the report?

24        A.   That's the same Dr. Novakovic who stated in 1992 when those

25     killings happened, camps were set up and Muslims were expelled from

Page 15708

 1     Brcko, he said that the most productive factory of this kind was the one

 2     that Jelisic ran, and that's what he said publicly.

 3        Q.   Was he proud of the fact or was he being sarcastic?

 4        A.   I don't think so.  I think he had other motivations.

 5        Q.   How can you say he was proud of it?  He was a psychiatrist, a

 6     very prominent person, and he was in favour, as we saw he advocated the

 7     rule of law and he was a member of the Assembly that was passing these

 8     laws.

 9        A.   Mr. Karadzic, I know Milan Novakovic very well.  Before this war

10     started, I took Milan Novakovic three times to a mental hospital for

11     treatment for his alcohol abuse.  I know him very well.  I know his

12     inclinations and weaknesses.  I know that he had certain very bad times,

13     because he was a chronic alcoholic.

14        Q.   Well, see what you think about various people and how many people

15     you find okay, but we'll just admit this document.

16        A.   Please don't comment.  I only confirmed what I said in my

17     statements earlier.  I'm not talking casually about people.  I'm only

18     answering questions, and you asked me about that man.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see 1D3775.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Can you see that this is my memo, dated the 31 of August, 1994,

22     sent to the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, the MUP of

23     Republika Srpska, and the command of the Eastern Bosnia Corps, the

24     president of the Municipal Assembly of Bijeljina, and the President of

25     the Executive Board of the municipal -- municipality of Bijeljina, in

Page 15709

 1     which I informed them -- it reads, "I inform you that on the occasion of

 2     the latest" -- we have a problem with translation.

 3             "I inform you that on the occasion of the latest reports on the

 4     problems relating to the Muslim population in Bijeljina, in particular as

 5     regards the treatment of Muslims who are members of the Army of

 6     Republika Srpska, I have formed a working group with the following

 7     composition:  General Bogdan Subotic, chief of the military office of the

 8     president of the republic; Goran Milinic, security advisor; Petko Budisa,

 9     assistant manager of the public security department of MUP.

10             The task of this working group is to monitor the situation on the

11     ground and submit to me a report with a proposal of measures.  And you

12     are obliged to present to me all available data and facts concerning this

13     issue to the working group.

14             Do you see that this commission was set up, that it consisted of

15     highly-ranking officials and that it was instructed to see what the

16     situation on the ground was?

17        A.   Yes, I can see that.  I don't know if you have the report of this

18     commission.  I would like to see it if you do, and I guess this has to do

19     with the problems that the Muslims who were enlisted in the VRS were

20     facing.

21        Q.   This is what the document reads.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have it admitted?

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   It says here Muslim population, and in particular the Muslim

25     soldiers in the VRS.  Correct?  The Muslim population.  That's what it

Page 15710

 1     reads.

 2        A.   Yes.  It reads so, but if you allow me, I think I can clarify

 3     because I think these were the problems which arose with people who were

 4     at the front, and meanwhile their families were rounded up and taken to

 5     the separation line and then allowed to go in the direction of Tuzla.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can it be admitted?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  We'll mark it for identification.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D1430, Your Honours.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please have 65 ter 7953.  I

11     don't think we have the Serbian version of this one.  This is my letter.

12     It don't have to be broadcast if -- though I don't think there are any

13     reasons not to broadcast it.  Can Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff please tell us what

14     her position is?

15             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I don't see a problem with a letter being

16     sent to the ICRC being broadcast.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Let's proceed.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   So as you can see, but let me not read it.  Can you read English?

21        A.   I?  No.

22        Q.   Then I will read it out to you, and then it will be translated.

23             "[In English] This is a brief note to let you know that the

24     recent events in Bijeljina and Janja involving members of the Muslim

25     minority have been totally misinterpreted by the media as well as

Page 15711

 1     officials of international organisations such as ... [No interpretation].

 2             "[In English] We are not, repeat, not conducting a policy of

 3     ethnic cleansing, nor are our local authorities in any way implicated in

 4     what has been going on.  However, we recognise that the problem existed

 5     and it is my firm intention to solve it.  A start has already been made:

 6     the regional police head has been replaced.  I am also taking certain

 7     other steps to deal with this matter, but I ask you to be patient and let

 8     me get on with this.  Finally, I ask you to remember similar events in --

 9     in the Prijedor area some time ago.  We had the same problem of

10     extremists taking law in their own hands.  We addressed that problem and

11     solved it soon thereafter.  The same will be true of Bijeljina and

12     Janja."

13             [Interpretation] Mr. Davidovic, the problems existed.  You

14     concluded yourself that the initial chaos began to ease as the rule of

15     law set in.  You saw that in August I sent a commission, and do you

16     remember that at the time the chief of the police in Bijeljina was

17     replaced, not because he persecuted anyone but because he was not able to

18     prevent this?  And you can see this letter in which Dr. Kuhn is informed

19     about this.

20             Do you realise that the existence of problems implies the efforts

21     of the state and that the issue of the extremists is one that you cannot

22     blame on the state policy and the state organs.  The problem exists.  It

23     is -- this is realised, and then we work on resolving it.

24        A.   Yes.  I would agree with that.  Can you just remind me, who was

25     this chief of police that you replaced?  I cannot remember.  And then I

Page 15712

 1     will answer the second part of your question.

 2        Q.   I don't know when Vajo Andric was there.  You know these people

 3     from Bijeljina.

 4        A.   This is why I asked you.  I wanted to know who this was, who was

 5     replaced, and at what time.

 6        Q.   September 1994.

 7        A.   It could have been only Branko Stevic who was replaced at the

 8     time, because after September 1991, I don't know who else could have been

 9     there in that period.  However, it doesn't really matter.  Let me not

10     enter into any arguments with you.  It's obvious from this memo that you

11     were aware of the facts, that there was pressure against you from

12     international organisations and the public and that for this reason when

13     you faced the problems you made efforts by writing the letter setting up

14     commissions, removing the chief in order to change the situation.  It's a

15     fact and it's true.

16        Q.   But, Mr. Davidovic, a part of your comment implies that I

17     wouldn't have done it if there was no pressure.  Did you see strictly

18     confidential documents which were not intended for public use but,

19     rather, addressed to organs of state in order to implement the rule of

20     law?

21        A.   Yes, Mr. Karadzic.  I said that earlier documents and this one

22     which you presented show that there was a need and that you were making

23     efforts but for what reasons?  I suppose it was the public pressure.  But

24     one question from me then to counter this.  How is possible that you

25     personally promoted Vojkan Djurkovic and awarded him the rank of major

Page 15713

 1     and a medal at a ceremony at the square in Bijeljina in 1994?  If you

 2     knew that Vojkan Djurkovic carried out ethnic cleansing throughout the

 3     war and that he only did that and that that was his only task, how is it

 4     then possible that it should happen that you would present him an award?

 5     Was it an award for the work he had done or for the acts he committed?

 6     Or what was the reason?

 7        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, do you stand by that, that this is correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   All right.  We'll come to that.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please have this document

11     admitted.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   You saw in this document that Prijedor is mentioned, and that I

14     mentioned that we did something similar in Prijedor.  Can we now please

15     have D1138?

16             JUDGE KWON:  This will be admitted.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D1431, Your Honours.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It says D1138.  It's already been

19     admitted, but just to have a look, as I mentioned Prijedor, to see that

20     these activities were carried out in Prijedor as well.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   In which army did I promote this gentleman, and where did he

23     receive this rank from me?

24        A.   He was in Arkan's army.  He was a soldier of Arkan's all along.

25        Q.   Do you have any evidence of that?

Page 15714

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness please repeat the answer?

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Slow down.  The interpreter didn't hear your answer,

 3     Mr. Davidovic.  To the question from Mr. Karadzic that -- whether you had

 4     any evidence of -- of the fact that he was in Arkan's army, he was a

 5     soldier in Arkan's all along.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My question, if you allow, was

 7     whether the witness has any evidence that I promoted him, and I asked him

 8     in which army was he serving when I promoted him.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Vojkan Djurkovic was a soldier for

10     Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan.  In the video-clip that we saw yesterday or

11     the day before yesterday when there was a troop review in Bijeljina, at

12     the head of the unit, when they were ready to line up, to his left or to

13     our right was Vojkan Djurkovic.  He was standing there at the head.  He

14     was a soldier for Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan.  All along, he was never

15     engaged in the Army of Republika Srpska and he was honoured and awarded

16     at the square, when the unit was lined up in front of the court building

17     in Bijeljina.  I think it was in 1994.  Some citizens were present.  This

18     was a public ceremony; nothing contested about that.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Mr. Davidovic --

21             JUDGE KWON:  In your previous answer that you said in your answer

22     I quote:

23              "How is it possible that you personally promoted

24     Vojkan Djurkovic and awarded him the rank of major?"

25             What do you mean by that?

Page 15715

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that in 1994, there was a

 2     line-up of this unit of Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, in Bijeljina after

 3     some activities they had carried out in that area.  Some of them were

 4     commended or promoted, and Vojkan Djurkovic was awarded the rank of major

 5     at the time and he was also awarded a medal.  I don't remember which

 6     medal any more; I was not present, but I know that he was there, that

 7     there was this line-up, that there was a troop review and that this

 8     decision was publicly promoted and this honour was awarded to him

 9     personally by Mr. Karadzic.

10             JUDGE KWON:  But he wasn't promoted by Mr. Karadzic, was he?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I think that he promoted him

12     personally, because who else could have promoted him to a higher rank,

13     and who could have made this decision on his promotion, if not

14     President Karadzic?  He was the one who awarded honours and who initiated

15     these extraordinary promotions and who gave such medals.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Back to you, Mr. Karadzic.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, I -- do I do that for every army or just the

19     Army of Republika Srpska?  Do I promote people in all armies in Europe or

20     in the Balkans?

21        A.   I only have in mind the Army of Republika Srpska, because you

22     were not the military commander or president of all Balkans or any other

23     country.  I'm talking only about the Army of Republika Srpska.

24        Q.   Thank you, but Vojkan was not a member of the Army of

25     Republika Srpska, was he?

Page 15716

 1        A.   No.  He was in Arkan's unit, but you awarded particularly Arkan's

 2     unit.  You promoted it as a unit which did much in the territory of

 3     Republika Srpska.

 4        Q.   For the sake of Trial Chamber, this was video-clip P2858.

 5             Mr. Davidovic, this line-up of the unit which was part of the

 6     MUP of Republika Srpska at the western Krajina front, did it take place

 7     on the 29th of October, 1995?

 8        A.   I don't know when that took place.  I think it was in 1994.  I

 9     just know that from the first day, even before the war events in

10     Bijeljina, Arkan was present in our territory.  First of all, he

11     organised a camp between Serbia and Bosnia-Herzegovina.  It was a

12     training camp to which members of the Serbian Democratic Party were sent,

13     young people who were being trained and prepared for some events.  I know

14     that Arkan came at the invitation of the Crisis Staff.  We could see this

15     from documents.  And I know that he waged war in Bijeljina.  I also know

16     that he went to work around Brcko and Zvornik just as he did in

17     Bijeljina.  He wanted to liberate these places, and I said that I saw his

18     members at the Lukavica garrison in Sarajevo.

19             This is all I said about this army.  It was coming and going and

20     passing through all along during the war.  It was going to the territory

21     of Krajina in Croatia, and I know that it could move freely through the

22     territory of Republika Srpska.  I also know that there were a number of

23     conflicts with active-duty officers of the army between Arkan and his men

24     and the forces that he was leading.

25        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, I will ask you to be very specific and to prove

Page 15717

 1     everything that you are saying.

 2        A.   You are free to do so.

 3        Q.   All right.  Let us finish with this document first.  What I said

 4     earlier about Prijedor, this was in April 1994, and in order to complete

 5     the investigation of the events and crimes in Prijedor, investigative

 6     measures and everything else.  Were you aware of that?

 7        A.   I can see that you wrote a memo and that it had to do with

 8     Prijedor.  I also know that you said toward the end, I looked at the

 9     English version which mentions Bijeljina and Janja.  I also know that the

10     entire population of Janja was moved out and that 80, if not even 90 per

11     cent of the Muslim population from Bijeljina were also moved out.

12        Q.   So you stand by that, by the claim that all the population of

13     Janja was moved out and 80 to 90 per cent of the Muslim population from

14     Bijeljina?

15        A.   Yes, everyone from Janja, and at least 80 to 90 per cent of the

16     Muslims from Bijeljina.

17        Q.   We'll prove that easily.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now please have a look at

19     the document 1D3791?

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

21        Q.   Do you know, Mr. Davidovic, that Arkan between April 1992 and

22     September 1995 was not present at the front lines of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

23     rather, Republika Srpska?

24        A.   I don't know whether he was present, but I know personally that

25     in the month of June, when the corridor was opened - I cannot remember

Page 15718

 1     whether it was June or July - when he passed through Republika Srpska

 2     with his unit he was going towards Kninska Krajina when the corridor was

 3     opened.  They were taking some aid there or something to them.  That I

 4     know.  After that, I don't know what happened, because then I left

 5     myself.  I wasn't there all the time.  I wasn't there on a daily basis in

 6     order to be able to follow.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  So he was travelling --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Slow down, please.  Could you repeat

 9     your question.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   So he was travelling to Kninska Krajina and carrying aid, passing

12     through Republika Srpska?

13        A.   Yes, he passed through Republika Srpska and Bijeljina.  That is

14     my view of the war, yes, when he passed through Bijeljina.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember --

16             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Davidovic, can you see the transcript which is

17     scrolling down a little bit in front of your -- on the monitor in front

18     of you?  Can I give you a tip?  The timing you can --

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20             JUDGE KWON:  The timing you can start your answer is when the

21     transcript stops, which reflects the interpretation of Mr. Karadzic's

22     question is over.  Thank you.  Please bear that in mind.  Please put a

23     pause between the question and answer.

24             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, and I do apologise.  I

Page 15719

 1     will follow it in the future.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   And do you remember that Arkan was on the front line in Serb

 4     Krajina, Croatia, and that he was taken prisoner by Croatia and that

 5     Croatia let him go without him standing trial at all?

 6        A.   I know that, and I know that he was released.  It is only now

 7     that some articles appeared in the newspapers saying how he was released,

 8     but this is more by way of comment, and I won't want to go into that.  I

 9     know that he was arrested.  I know that he was released without having

10     stood trial at all.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that in the autumn of 1995, after the

12     bombing of Republika Srpska, from the 28th of August until the 15th of

13     September, Republika Srpska was attacked by the Croatian Muslim

14     federation, which is twice as big, also Republika Srpska was attacked by

15     Croatia, the Croatian Army, and NATO, along with all sorts of other

16     factors that were involved.

17        A.   Yes, I know that.  It was in all the media.  Nothing was a

18     secret.  At that time, the Army of Republika Srpska sustained terrible

19     losses, and everything that happened was organised, as far as I know, by

20     the active-duty forces of the Republic of Croatia and the Muslim Croat

21     forces of Bosnia and Herzegovina led by Dudakovic, and I also know that

22     before that there was a conflict of this man from Bihac, yes, Abdic and

23     Dudakovic.  They had a conflict in the area of Bihac.  But it is true

24     there was an offensive.  These people took part, supported by NATO

25     forces, and allegedly they gave physical and logistical support to these

Page 15720

 1     forces and Arkan was directly involved in these war developments.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  So in that situation, volunteers were admitted only

 3     if they were among the ranks of the army or the police.  Do you know of

 4     anyone who fought in the Krajina outside the army or the police?

 5        A.   I don't know how people fought, but I know that I recently read

 6     this comment, made by General Manojlovic who was chief of General Staff

 7     and who was at the front line at that point in time.  He said that he had

 8     problems with Arkan's forces in that area when these joint actions took

 9     place.

10        Q.   Did he have problems because Arkan was capturing deserters or

11     were there some other problems?  Remember that it was mentioned that he

12     captured deserters?

13        A.   Yes, that's true.  They said that Arkan found all of those trying

14     to desert and then I assume he sent them back to their units.  I read

15     that recently.  It just so happened I read it in a news magazine,

16     Manojlo Milovanovic was talking about what he remembered, and he said

17     that that was a problem that he faced.

18        Q.   Just another problem in relation to Krajina in the autumn of

19     1995.  Did you hear of the extent to which civilian -- Serb civilians

20     were suffering, Mrkonjic, elsewhere?  Have you heard of the mass graves

21     that were found there?

22        A.   Yes, I heard that there were many mass graves and many killings,

23     that the forces that were penetrating the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina

24     were committing abominable crimes.  I actually know of neighbours who

25     were killed in that front -- on that front line, and they couldn't even

Page 15721

 1     find their mortal remains even after all the DNA analyses.  They haven't

 2     even been buried properly.  It is true that there was a great deal of

 3     retaliation and a great many persons were killed.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Can we focus on this document that is here now.  The

 5     Eastern Bosnian Corps is writing up a report on the session of the

 6     National Assembly of Republika Srpska held on the 22nd of August, 1994,

 7     and it says in Pale, on the 18th of August, the 44th session of the

 8     National Assembly of Republika Srpska was held at Pale, and it says what

 9     was done there.  The subordinates are being informed about what happened,

10     the tactical group of Majevica, but that means that other units were also

11     made aware of this.  So can we have the second page now.

12             Maybe it's going to be the third page in English, so could we

13     have that as well.

14             I would like you to look at the fifth paragraph from the top of

15     the page, "The Assembly decided ..."

16             Until we find our way in the English version, please focus on

17     this.

18             "The Assembly decided that the new government should prepare a

19     program of measures and tasks in the newly created conditions that would

20     be discussed at the session of the Assembly on the 31st of August, 1994."

21             Within an item on the agenda entitled questions and proposals by

22     MPs, at the request of the MPs, at a closed session of this Assembly, the

23     President of the Republic Radovan Karadzic, the Vice-President

24     Nikola Koljevic, Speaker of the Assembly, Momcilo Krajisnik, and the

25     representative of the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska,

Page 15722

 1     Major-General Zdravko Tolimir informed the MPs about the topic of

 2     political and security --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, impossible.  Impossible to follow if

 4     you read it out in that speed.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   I do apologise.  It says -- well, at the request of the MPs at a

 7     closed session, the President of the Republic, Radovan Karadzic,

 8     Vice-President Nikola Koljevic, Momcilo Krajisnik, Speaker of the

 9     Assembly, and the representative of the Main Staff and so on and so forth

10     answered questions put by the deputies.  Since it was a closed session,

11     that is not contained in the transcript.  However, let us see what

12     General Simic's report was.

13             Can we have the next page.  The next page in Serbian, and we'll

14     try to see where the English is.  It's fine in Serbian and in English

15     it's probably one page ahead.

16             "The President of Republika Srpska condemned the engagement of

17     the organs of authority of the Zavidovici municipality, in the expulsion

18     of people from Vozuca, adding that the assessment that it was safer to

19     live in Vozuca than in urban parts of Sarajevo where the front lines were

20     on both sides of the street and where civilians were being killed every

21     day, but they did not move out, and they withstood all Muslim offensives.

22     The President of the Republic also condemned all cases of indiscipline,

23     alcoholism, evasion of military service, criminal activities against

24     members of the Army of Republika Srpska carried out by Vojkan Djurkovic

25     and the group around him."

Page 15723

 1             What do you say to that?  This is closed session of the session

 2     of the Assembly of Republika Srpska?  What do you say to that?  What do

 3     you say in relation to your assertion that I awarded and rewarded

 4     Vojkan Djurkovic?

 5        A.   I don't see what you're trying to say.

 6        Q.   You see this?

 7        A.   I see that you criticised him and said that he created some

 8     problems.  However, I said that in spite of all of that, he was promoted

 9     and a decoration was conferred upon him.

10        Q.   Give the OTP a document to that effect.

11        A.   I'm going to collect statements from persons involved, and I'm

12     going to send them.

13        Q.   Consciously, you are misinforming the OTP and the Trial Chamber.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, please put a pause.  Just a second.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE KWON:  I think we have exhausted this topic.  Let's move

17     on, Mr. Karadzic.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could this document please be

19     admitted?

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  This will be admitted as Exhibit D1432.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Would you now please focus on paragraph 165 of your statement.

24     This is what you say:

25              "I recall having been told by Djurkovic that on one occasion

Page 15724

 1     when they expelled 100 to 150 Muslims he collected 150.000 to 200.000

 2     marks.  Djurkovic told me he was paid well for the authority to be in

 3     charge of the expulsion of Muslims from Bijeljina.  Djurkovic talked

 4     publicly about giving money to Karadzic and Krajisnik.  Djurkovic paid a

 5     certain percentage of money collected for each group of people expelled

 6     to Radovan Karadzic and Momcilo Krajisnik."

 7             Is that what you wrote?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Now we're going to see.  So you're chatting with him, and he is

10     taking you in his confidence and saying what kind of money he is

11     collecting, and you did not file a criminal report with the police, no?

12     Did you write up a criminal report after that conversation?

13        A.   Will you allow me to wait for the typing to stop so that I could

14     answer as instructed by the President of the Trial Chamber.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Davidovic.  Please proceed.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not chatting with Vojkan.  I

17     did not have an opportunity to converse with him.  I conducted

18     semi-official or official talks with him.  I had several contacts, very

19     unpleasant ones, with him, and when I asked him once, "What are you

20     doing?  How can you be doing that kind of thing?" and so on, he said, "If

21     I didn't have the right to do that, I wouldn't be doing it.  And if I did

22     not benefit from it like those who are telling me to do this."

23             And I said, "Well, who is giving you the authority to do that?"

24             "Well, I get paid for what I'm doing, and I'm paying further on,

25     and it's easier to see --" I've already said that when he rounds up 300

Page 15725

 1     or 400 men on a truck, he takes them to a special location and searches

 2     these people for two days.  I said that even very old women were examined

 3     gynecologically because they were looking for money.  And usually he

 4     would tell them, Take what you can with you, so they don't take too many

 5     things.  People would take diplomas if they have any, and some clothes

 6     and their valuables.  In these groups of 300 or 400 persons, there would

 7     be millions of marks and -- or, rather, about 500.000 marks.

 8             He publicly boasted about this.  He didn't only tell me about it.

 9     He told everybody in town about all of these things that he bought during

10     the war and that he took, and he said that he took part of that money

11     collected to you and to Mr. Krajisnik and that that is why you gave him

12     the right to do that and that no one, therefore, dared stop him.  At the

13     moment when he did that, the army and the police did not do anything

14     about it, although they knew what was going on.  They even received

15     telephone calls from neighbours saying here they are, they're coming, but

16     they didn't dare react.  And then the problem was perpetuated.  This is

17     to say that this kept happening all the time, from 1992 more or less

18     until the end of the war.  That did happen.  The international community

19     knew about this, the international Red Cross.  I don't know who amongst

20     the authorities did not know about that and did not stop it nevertheless.

21        Q.   Let us -- let us go back to this paragraph of yours.  Was this

22     chatting or was this an official talk?

23        A.   I cannot chat with persons like that.  I can have an informal

24     talk, but all of these conversations are aimed at providing information

25     that I eventually wrote up and sent to my superiors.  Several times I

Page 15726

 1     wrote about this to my superiors.  I must say even to President Milosevic

 2     through Minister Bulatovic.  I sent him a document asking him to try to

 3     prevent this kind of thing from happening in Bijeljina in any way he can.

 4     I don't know whether you have that kind of information here.  I did

 5     inform my superiors about that, and the authorities in Bijeljina knew

 6     about all of this in detail.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  So you talked to Vojkan Djurkovic, and there is an

 8     official report in this connection and a criminal report.  If not a

 9     criminal report, at least an official note.

10        A.   Not a criminal report but an official note sent to my superior,

11     and I wrote up a memo on several pages about all of these things that

12     were happening, and I asked Minister Bulatovic to send this memo further

13     on to Mr. Milosevic.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Did you write this, that he admitted that he would

15     gather 150 to 200.000 marks and that he gave a percentage to Krajisnik

16     and Karadzic?

17        A.   Yes, exactly.

18        Q.   Where is this official note?

19        A.   I don't know.  I had this official note.  I don't have it any

20     more.  I don't know if it was found in the federal SUP or the documents

21     that were before this Tribunal before.  I don't know.  I cannot say.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I see the time, Excellencies, so I

23     don't think that I should call up a document now.  Perhaps I can do it

24     after the break, if you so decide.

25             JUDGE KWON:  If it is convenient, we'll take a break now.

Page 15727

 1             Before we break, I just have one matter.

 2             Mr. Tieger, the Chamber has considered your request of 29 June

 3     2011 for leave to reply to the accused's response regarding further

 4     orders on DNA testing and ICMP.  We will grant you leave to reply but

 5     only in relation to item 3 of the request, that is on the issue of

 6     whether further orders by the Chamber are still appropriate in light of

 7     the accused's response.

 8             Could this reply be filed by the end of the day today?

 9             MR. TIEGER:  As always, we'll try to do so, Your Honour.  If it

10     appears that the -- that that won't be possible, I will let the Court

11     know quickly.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

13             We'll resume at 11.00.

14                           --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, you seen your official note to

20     Minister Pavle Bulatovic.  You sent your note to President Milosevic.  We

21     know that President Milosevic is dead.  Is Minister Bulatovic alive?

22        A.   No.  He was killed in Belgrade.  I can't remember the year.

23        Q.   He was killed.

24        A.   The defence minister.

25        Q.   Did you sent any official note to the MUP of Republika Srpska?

Page 15728

 1        A.   No, because I knew that they had all that information.  They know

 2     because they are directly involved in all of these developments, and they

 3     know it.

 4        Q.   They were involved?

 5        A.   Well, since when Vojkan Djurkovic was rounding people up in the

 6     streets the police was not intervening.  Even when the citizens called

 7     them in they did not come.  And at the station they would remain inside

 8     and only when the rounding up is over did the police come out into the

 9     street.  They knew from the start that he was doing it.

10        Q.   So you are making inferences.  If they are not preventing him,

11     they are accessories.  Make a pause, please.

12        A.   I am thinking quite naturally.  If they see what's going on and

13     doing nothing about it, that means they must have orders not to do

14     anything.  All the time Vojkan Djurkovic is talking about it publicly,

15     and everyone knew the kind of person he was.  He likes to boast.  He

16     always drops names, emphasises that he has contacts here and there.  So

17     they knew, too, who he was and that he was doing what he was doing.

18        Q.   Help me make this clear.  You are using analogy and making

19     inferences, namely if somebody is aware that somebody else is doing

20     something and doing nothing to prevent them, they mean -- that means they

21     are involved and an accessory.  You say that Vojkan Djurkovic is the kind

22     of person drops names and brags about his contacts to show that he is

23     untouchable.

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And you believed him, that it was not only bragging, that it was

Page 15729

 1     true.

 2        A.   I didn't say I believed him.  I'm not saying that all he said was

 3     true.  I'm only saying what I heard from Vojkan, and that's what I

 4     conveyed to you.  How much truth there was in what he was saying, I don't

 5     know, and I wasn't asked about it.  I'm only talking about my personal

 6     experience, what I saw and heard myself.  Everything else is up to

 7     everyone's personal judgement.  How much truth there was in Vojkan's

 8     words, I don't know.  After all, I'm not the only one who knew about it.

 9     The state authorities had all this information beginning with the police

10     and the secret police, state security and the army.  Everyone was aware

11     of it.

12        Q.   I can't speak on behalf of the OTP, but I believe the Office of

13     the Prosecutor will kiss you when you bring that official note that you

14     talk about.

15             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  It's not appropriate to make such a comment.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Absolutely.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you allow me just a moment.  I

19     presented to the OTP a written document stating that certain documents

20     from Bosnia and Herzegovina had been taken away from me and that official

21     note was among them.  There is such a document, in any case.  Now, what

22     happened with the documentation that I submitted to my command, I'll be

23     free to say that before I came to testify in the Krajisnik case, I asked

24     to be given certain documentation.  They were unable to give it to me.

25     They said a lot of it was destroyed during the bombing because the

Page 15730

 1     federal SUP building was bombed, and they still haven't looked through

 2     the remaining documents to see what there is there.  So they were unable

 3     to give it to me.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

 5        Q.   Did Mr. Djurkovic tell you how he sent money to me and

 6     Mr. Krajisnik, by mail or personally?

 7        A.   Well, supposedly he took it directly, and he even said, "When I

 8     hand over a bag full of money, nobody will mind.  And if I wasn't paying

 9     that money, they probably would have taken that right away from me a long

10     time ago."

11             He was talking about a nylon bag full of money.  Whether that was

12     bragging, whether it was a lie, I don't know, but he said it to me, and

13     he said it publicly.  Everyone knew about it more or less.  I can't

14     understand that you are now trying to say that you didn't know about it,

15     that you didn't know about him saying these things.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Davidovic, we have all reports from the

17     State Security Service.  Nobody ever reported about that to me.  At least

18     we would have had those reports.

19             Did you know that my office recorded every visit and every

20     telephone call to me and that in these diaries and agendas there's no

21     trace of any contact between Vojkan Djurkovic and me?

22        A.   I believe you.  I'm just telling you what I know.  That's what I

23     was able to hear and see myself.  Now, why they didn't inform you, why

24     your subordinates did not give this information to you, I don't know, but

25     that was common knowledge.  It was notorious.  Everybody knew about it.

Page 15731

 1     That's why people kept quiet, and nobody dared do anything, because they

 2     thought it comes from the top, and they had to bow to it.

 3        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Davidovic.  You confirmed that you know you were

 4     sent to provide assistance to the MUP of Republika Srpska after a public

 5     appeal made by the Prime Minister of Yugoslavia, Milan Panic, and myself

 6     to provide help in clearing up and eliminating paramilitaries; correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Do you remember that on the same occasion the FRY prime minister,

 9     Milan Panic, and I made a public appeal to the Muslims to return to areas

10     where there is no combat?  I mean, those Muslims who had fled, they

11     should return to areas where there is no more combat.

12        A.   I don't remember, but I believe such appeals were made,

13     especially by Milan Panic who was rather free in his speech, and he often

14     said things that ran counter to what was going on to -- in Serbia,

15     especially contrary to what Milosevic and other people said.

16        Q.   Please stay on the question.  Do you recall that we also made an

17     appeal to people to return to areas where there is no combat?

18        A.   Possibly.  You may have said it, but I focused on what I was

19     told, that he was summoned, told to go to Bosnia at the request of

20     Prime Minister Panic and you to help the Republika Srpska in disarming

21     paramilitaries.  That's the only thing I had to focus on.  It's possible

22     that you also said that Muslims should return to areas they had fled

23     earlier, but I don't think they could have returned, because everything

24     was either destroyed or given to other people.

25        Q.   Did anyone respond to that appeal?  Did any Muslims return to

Page 15732

 1     Bijeljina?

 2        A.   I must say when I came to Bijeljina and restored peace to some

 3     extent, some people returned from Hungary, from Serbia.  Some Muslims did

 4     return to Bijeljina.  I knew some of them personally.  I saw them at the

 5     border crossing in Bosnia, because we were just establishing a

 6     check-point on the border at that time, a police check-point, and I could

 7     see at that time that some Muslims were returning to their homes,

 8     believing that combat had stopped, especially in Bijeljina, that people

 9     were no longer being rounded up and taken away.

10        Q.   Did I have to return to those people the money that I allegedly

11     received from Vojkan?  Do you have that information?  Was the money given

12     back to those people, and did I have to return my share as well?

13        A.   I don't know.  Many of them accused Vojkan of taking money from

14     them.  Nobody mentioned you, and the fact that Vojkan says that he paid

15     off you and Krajisnik is a different matter.  I haven't seen his

16     statement.  I don't know.  I never heard that anybody was claiming money

17     from you.  Even the weapons that had been taken away are now being

18     claimed back.  I know that there are many problems with the Muslims

19     returning to the area of Bijeljina and Janja.

20        Q.   Could we briefly look at D473.  Is this a summary from a working

21     meeting of the leaders of the MUP, dated 20 August 1992, strictly

22     confidential?  Correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Could we look at English page 10, Serbian 7, or perhaps 8.

25     Serbian 8, English 10.

Page 15733

 1             Look at the last paragraph.

 2             "In Bijeljina, the situation is relatively good, but it's much

 3     worse than it looks at first glance.  The problem with the Muslim part of

 4     the population is increasingly complicated with the return of Muslim

 5     refugees and those who had earlier left and this was affected by the

 6     recent statements of Mr. Karadzic and Panic.  Among this population there

 7     is a certain number of Muslim extremists, and it is estimated that a

 8     large number of citizens of this ethnicity have weapons."

 9             Do you see that even extremists felt encouraged to come back

10     after my appeal and that of Mr. Panic?

11        A.   Yes.  This confirms that some Muslims were trying to return, but

12     they were unable to return to their homes and that created significant

13     problems, but I don't know how Muslim extremists would have been treated

14     at that time.  When I was there in 1992, there were no Muslim

15     extremists -- there were no extremists.  People were so afraid.  They

16     were trying to be invisible.  I even had a good friend, a Muslim.

17     Whenever he saw me around town, he would look away, cross to the other

18     side of the street to be invisible.  When I stopped him and I said, "What

19     are you doing, neighbour?  Why are you so afraid?"  He would say, "I'm

20     not afraid for myself.  You will have problems if you are seen with me."

21        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, do you know about my very strict view against all

22     type of crime and all sorts of criminals and especially corruption?

23        A.   No.  I must say I'm not aware of it.  It's the first time I hear

24     of it.  And if you have any document about that, I'd like to see it very

25     much.

Page 15734

 1        Q.   Could we look at P4 briefly, an intercept dated 18 November 1991.

 2     P4.

 3             In addition to other criminal features of Vojkan's conduct and

 4     the conduct of other people, would you call it also war profiteering?

 5        A.   You're asking me.  Yes.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  This is an intercept of my conversation with Predrag,

 7     late Predrag Radic, in fact, Vukic, Radic, and Brdjanin.  One is the

 8     president --

 9        A.   Mayor.

10        Q.   Mayor of Banja Luka.  Brdjanin was an MP.  Could we see page 3 in

11     both versions.

12             Can you see the fourth from above?

13             Karadzic said, "So I asked him nicely, I said to him, Andjelko,

14     don't you guys hang around with criminals.  Please don't.  Your career's

15     at stake.  And then he says, absolutely.  And I say, he says you know,

16     they're not criminals.  If they're not criminals, he says only two or

17     three are, then great.  Two or three.  Sit down with the military

18     prosecutor and the two are three that are criminals can stay in

19     detention, and the other ones can be released."

20             And then a bit further down Karadzic says, "But there has to be

21     an agreement, and it really has to be checked who is a criminal and who

22     has to stay.  We must not base our policies on criminals.  Let Tudjman do

23     that."

24             And a bit further down there is a swear word, and I say, "I don't

25     need Serbs like that.  I don't need 32 tossers.  They say that 20 of them

Page 15735

 1     were released right away."

 2             Do you can you see that I advocated that people for whom there

 3     are reasons to keep them in custody should not be released?

 4        A.   Yes, Mr. Karadzic.  I see that's what you're advocating, but

 5     while you were advocating such things, you were probably aware that at

 6     the time there was much crime in the area of Republika Srpska, much

 7     crime, much crime and much collusion between crime and people who were in

 8     high positions who were allowing this or they were sharing profits with

 9     someone, but objectively speaking, you must know yourself that crime was

10     rife and widespread.  And I see what you advocated but whether all this

11     information was reaching you or not is something I couldn't know but I'm

12     telling you what was really happening on the ground.  I can see that you

13     were -- your position was against that and you wanted people who were

14     doing such things to be arrested.  So I'm not contesting at any time the

15     efforts that you were making in that direction.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Can we please show the next page.

17             Mr. Davidovic, did we call you to drink tea together or did we

18     call you to help us about crime?

19        A.   You called me to help prevent the crime.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21        A.   And something else.  You gave me carte blanche.  I have told the

22     Prosecution that I did not have any prohibition, any restrictions or

23     anything else.  I was completely autonomous when planning activities and

24     operations, arresting, bringing people in.  No one ever told me don't do

25     that or didn't allow me to carry out anything.

Page 15736

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please have a look at the fifth or sixth line

 2     from above where it says not private businessmen here.  "I don't have

 3     anything against the private businessmen," Karadzic says there, "but the

 4     war profiteering cannot be stamped out," and then there's a swear word.

 5     "These are war profiteers.  They are not patriots."

 6             Would you agree with that?

 7        A.   I do.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Can we now please have a look at 65 ter 31672.

 9     31672.

10             This is my telephone conversation with -- rather, dated the 2nd

11     of November, 1991, with Nenad Stevandic.  He was a party man from

12     Banja Luka.  Can we please see the following page in both Serbian and

13     English.

14             And here down near the bottom, please have a look,

15     Nenad Stevandic says:

16             "Ah, he was here in Belgrade for two days and I don't know who he

17     came to see.  I believe that he mentioned you as well, and so ..."

18             And Karadzic says, "He can't mention me.  I will be in Belgrade.

19     I will be in Belgrade as well and tell people to disregard it.  Uzelac

20     has carte blanche there.  There is no way to have any paramilitary

21     formation to embarrass us and do what they did."

22             And then Stevandic says --

23             Can you see from this that others also referred to me, they

24     mentioned my name, and that this is something that I'm denying here?

25        A.   Yes.  It happened frequently, Mr. Karadzic, that people,

Page 15737

 1     especially if they had a criminal past or if they had such inclinations

 2     would refer to you saying with full conviction that they had your

 3     approval what they were doing.  To what extent that could be checked at

 4     such time, I cannot say, but I heard very often that your name was

 5     mentioned in various situations, and I must say sometimes these were bad

 6     people, criminals, swindlers, and your name was mentioned in various

 7     kinds of situations.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Please have a look.  He says:  @doctor, the problem

 9     is no the paramilitary formations.  The problem is that they really did

10     plunder ..."

11             It's page 3 in Serbian in English we can keep page 2.

12             "They really did plunder, and they really did share that with" --

13     and some names are listed, Mladjenovic, Savicic, and Andjelko.  And then

14     it goes on to say, Stevandic says:

15             "They know that if these fall, the others will fall, too."

16             And Karadzic says, "let them fall, they mustn't do that.  We

17     cannot rely anywhere."

18             And Stevandic says, "God forbid."

19             And then I say, "What we are doing, we must not build a rotten

20     stone in the foundations of what we are building.  We shall not rely on

21     criminals."

22             Is this also evidence that my position was that we had to build

23     sound stones as part of the foundation of what we were building at the

24     time?

25        A.   Yes.  One can conclude that from this.

Page 15738

 1        Q.   All right.  Thank you.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this intercept be admitted with

 3     all limitations as a MFI'd document?

 4             JUDGE KWON:  We'll mark it for identification.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  MFI D1433, Your Honours.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 32054, please.

 7     65 ter 32054.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   This is my telephone conversation with Mr. Stevandic on the 20th

10     of December, 1991.  Let us please look at page 2 in English and page 3 in

11     Serbian.

12             Stevandic says, on the previous page in Serbian, "I'm interested

13     if that's a political game, that they be released, then we should say."

14             And Karadzic says, "No, no."

15             And then on page 3 in Serbian and page 2 in English:

16             "Thieves are not national heroes and we cannot lie to the

17     people" - this is what Karadzic says - "no, no, they are -- they cannot

18     be released until the investigation is completed.  If the investigation

19     is completed, then they can be released or remain detained until the

20     beginning of the trial."

21             And then he wants to ask me if anyone ends up from Serbia if

22     there are internal conflicts or showdown and then someone from Serbia

23     could intervene.

24             And Karadzic says, "No, no.  Nobody from Serbia will intervene.

25     No way.  Nobody will stand up for criminals.  Only when the investigation

Page 15739

 1     is over and there's no need for them to be in prison, then let them be

 2     released."

 3             And then a bit further down, it says, "There's justice.  No

 4     discussion about that.  You may tell that to Stojan.  We stick to

 5     position of the rule of law and we will protect ..."

 6             Yes, in English we need the next page, please.

 7             "You may tell Stojan this, because we support rule of law and

 8     we'll protect both Stojan and Uzelac in that sense.  There -- no one over

 9     there can behave against the rule of law."

10             Would you agree there may have been problems for Uzelac as the

11     corps commander and Zupljanin as the chief of police while they

12     prosecuted criminals and that by this I'm saying that they have our

13     support?

14        A.   Yes.  They could be exposed to criticism and have problems, and I

15     can see from this that you are supporting them.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Can we please have page 4 in Serbian and we can keep

17     the page that we can see on the screen now in English.

18             Karadzic says here, "yes, yes, yes.  All that will -- there's

19     no -- you may say to Stojan that I stand behind that.  No one -- none of

20     them are allowed to behave any differently from any decent citizen."

21             And then later on he says that he will attack Brdjanin.

22             And then I say, "If they attack Brdjanin and the others and

23     commit a criminal offence, they will have to go to gaol again.  So there

24     are no problems, and politically I'll fuck them to pieces."

25             Well, it's a swear word, no doubt about that.

Page 15740

 1             And then a bit further down:  "A change of a political position

 2     and attitude regarding the legality of the state.  There is none of

 3     that."

 4             Can we now please see page 5 in Serbian.

 5             Karadzic says, "we'll never rely on criminals, and they have to

 6     know that.  We won't mix -- or get involved in the issue of their guilt.

 7     Let the court decide about that?"

 8             And a bit further down:  "By making political movements, we will

 9     neither facilitate or make their position more difficult.  Therefore, we

10     are not going to make it easier or more difficult for them."

11             And the following page in Serbian, please.

12             "Therefore, that's out of the question.  If they want to have an

13     influence, the climate is somewhat different now and there's no doubt

14     about them not being guilty.  If the investigation is over, the judge had

15     the right to release them, but the investigation must be over and then

16     end either with a conviction or an acquittal.  Therefore, such an

17     attitude must be resolved."

18             Would you agree that this means advocating the law and that this

19     is not something addressed to the press?  I'm telling that to my party

20     colleague from Banja Luka.

21        A.   Yes, I agree.  There's no doubt about it.  It's a fact.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have this intercept admitted

24     in the same manner as the previous ones?

25             JUDGE KWON:  We'll mark it for identification.

Page 15741

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  MFI D1434.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And one more on this subject:

 3     65 ter 0036 -- 30036.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   This is my conversation with someone from state administration.

 6     The previous one was a party official, and now I'm talking with

 7     Mr. Miodrag Simovic who is the vice-premier of the joint Bosnian

 8     government on the 8th of June, 1991, 20 years ago.  Miodrag Simovic was

 9     not a member of the party, but at the proposal of SDS, he was the

10     vice-premier in charge of the judiciary and administration.  Perhaps you

11     knew that.  Can we now see page 2 in both Serbian and English.

12             Seventh line from above Karadzic says, "Were you at the

13     government session when he accused the parties leaders for interference?"

14             Simovic replies, "No."

15             And then a bit further down after Delimustafic, Karadzic says:

16             "You can ask for it that Mr. Delimustafic writes down the names

17     of the leaders who wanted to intervene.  When did they call him and

18     intervene.  I never called him and I never ..."

19             And a bit further down:

20             "No, no.  But that's why he shouldn't be allowed to get out of

21     this now.  He has to say whether it was Alija or somebody else, but then

22     he has to say who to be specific when, which leader, and for which

23     person.  And then finally, why should he listen to anyone?  If somebody

24     committed a crime, why would he obey any party leader?"

25             So the Minister of the Interior, Alija Delimustafic, said at the

Page 15742

 1     government session that some party leaders interfered with the work of

 2     the MUP and Radovan Karadzic requests the vice-premier, who is superior

 3     to Delimustafic because he is in charge of the judiciary and

 4     administration to clarify this and to make Delimustafic say out clearly

 5     who interfered with his work.

 6             So would you say that this is an intervention relating to these

 7     anonymous claims that someone was trying to interfere?

 8        A.   I agree.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can it be admitted?

11             JUDGE KWON:  Again, this will be marked for identification.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D1435, Your Honours.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Can you please focus your attention on paragraph 145 from your

15     statement.  You're talking about Zvornik and in the second sentence you

16     say:

17             "[In English] My opinion was that the RS leadership was more than

18     happy to have a state of chaos continue in Brcko, Bijeljina, and Zvornik.

19     The re-establishment of law and order would have made it difficult for

20     the RS leadership through the SDS to continue war profiteering."

21             [Interpretation] Can you now please look at this one, D456.  Can

22     we please show that one so that we can see what was being said at the

23     Assembly of Republika Srpska.

24             Let us have a look at this.  These are the minutes from the 20th

25     session of the Assembly of Republika Srpska, and I would like us to have

Page 15743

 1     a look at page 59 in Serbian and page 55 in English.  That was my speech

 2     before the Assembly.  In English, 55, right, and Serbian, 59.

 3             It's the sixth line from the bottom of the page.  "I'm saying

 4     that we've been given a lot of credit by the international community,

 5     that we are cooperative, that we want to work on humanitarian issues.

 6     That has assisted us a great deal.  Do not worry about that.  We do not

 7     need Manjaca.  I wish all of the Green Berets were killed while they

 8     still had a rifle in their hands.  However, if you took them prisoner

 9     then you have to observe the Geneva Convention.  That has to happen.  It

10     also suits us to close this.  Just not for them to appear on the

11     battle-field."

12             Can we have the next page, please.  In the middle, the end of the

13     first paragraph on this page and the beginning of the second one, I say:

14             "There is an imminent threat of war.  That is what we have

15     declared.  And if we need to declare a state of war for that to become an

16     efficient government, then I probably say that we'll not be afraid to be

17     firm when they exercise authority.  It's -- power's not an easy thing,

18     but you either have it or you don't.  Some people say that is true.  I am

19     pleased when I see that in Bijeljina children are playing ..."

20             And so on and so forth.

21             Could I please have the next page.  In Serbian it's 60 and in

22     English it's 56.

23             It says:  "Please let us look at this and let us see what will

24     give us sufficient authority to do our work relentlessly as of the next

25     day, because we do not have the right to fool around with our people, not

Page 15744

 1     only with Republika Srpska but with the Serbian people and all Serbian

 2     lands.  Further on it says the democratic party has to be tolerant, mild,

 3     and allow different opinions, but that cannot be the situation in state

 4     organs.  That's why laws exist and that's why laws do not allow any

 5     ambiguity."

 6             And further down, it says:  "The government, the ministers,

 7     commissioners, municipal authorities, the military police, they must all

 8     start functioning within three days or we're doomed.  That's a must.  Get

 9     rid of the shitheads, if they are not for the police.  Return them to the

10     front and bring to the front people whose hands are clean.  Change the

11     whole police force."

12             Do you agree, Mr. Davidovic, that the president cannot do more

13     than ask for these measures to be carried out?

14        A.   I agree.  I think that that was right on your part.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Can I ask you whether you remember that Dragan Andan

16     was a police inspector first and that then he was appointed acting chief

17     of the CSB?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   65 ter 18400.  Could we have that now, please.  Now we're going

20     to see why Dragan Andan was promoted.

21             First of all, he was a police inspector.  We're going to see that

22     on the last page.  Then he was promoted acting chief of the security

23     services centre.  Then he was suspended and we saw for what reasons.  You

24     yourself would have suspended him.  Now, let's see why he was promoted.

25     This is the 17th of June, 1992, just before you arrived -- or, rather,

Page 15745

 1     you may have been there already.  It says report on supervision.

 2     Actually, this is 65 ter.  There should be a translation as well.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  The fact that a certain document does bear a 65 ter

 4     number does not necessarily mean there should be a translation, but that

 5     should be confirmed by --

 6             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, we don't have a translation.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  It is your responsibility to offer the

 8     translation of documents.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Since

10     Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff is on duty today, I am not asking you to criticise

11     her, but you may criticise Mr. Tieger.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   I would like to go through this carefully, because there is no

14     translation.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, that's another improper comment.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise.  That was by way of a

17     joke.  I could not resist, because you criticise us when we do not

18     provide a translation.  The OTP have this as a 65 ter document, and they

19     did not provide a translation as well.  I thought you should criticise

20     them the way you criticise us, but I thought that Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff

21     should not be criticised like a man would be criticised, but if that is

22     inappropriate, then I withdraw what I said.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Let's not waste more time.  Let's proceed.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

25        Q.   I will have to read out more than I would if we had a

Page 15746

 1     translation.  It says:  "Report on supervision and insight into the

 2     situation in SJB Brcko and SJB Zvornik and partly the situation in SJB

 3     Bijeljina."  That is the public security station in Bijeljina.

 4             Could you please read this for yourself, and I will simply

 5     recount what this is about.  Does this say that Danilo Vukovic and

 6     Dragomir Andan from the 29th of May until the 12th of June, 1992, carried

 7     out instructional supervision and provided indispensable professional

 8     assistance to the stations of Brcko and Zvornik and then it says that on

 9     the 29th of May, the basic functions of the Brcko station were not

10     carried out, and it says there was no komandir of the police, the crime

11     investigation service was headed by a national security official, but

12     their work was carried out in a very superficial way.

13             And then further down, it says:  "With the assistance of the

14     chief of the public security station, we managed to constitute the

15     service as such."

16             And it says that:  "Along with proposals and suggestions from the

17     public security station chief, we appointed top officials within the

18     station itself."

19             And then the last sentence says:  "As for the functioning of the

20     patrol service in the territory of the liberated parts of the town of

21     Brcko, we establish this service thanks to the understanding of the

22     military organs who allowed for 155 policemen to be withdrawn from the

23     front line."

24             Do you remember that during these first months of the war the

25     police had to abandon their regular duties and go and defend the front

Page 15747

 1     line?

 2        A.   There were such cases.  I knew about Brcko because Dragan told me

 3     about that when I got there.  When we came to Brcko later, he told me

 4     about these details.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Can we have the next page.  The middle of the second

 6     paragraph says:  As we arrived, we looked into the lists of the reserve

 7     police force, also checked against the criminal records.  After that, 21

 8     persons who went through these records -- or, rather, who were cleared

 9     were sent to TO Brcko.  Does that mean that they were sent to the

10     military?

11        A.   Yes, yes.  My answer was yes.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Next page.  Part of my answer was not included.  Does

13     that mean that they were excluded from the police and returned to the

14     TO -- or, rather, the army?

15        A.   Yes.  All of those who were cleared and who were found among the

16     reserve police force were returned to the regular army, that is to say,

17     to the defence.

18        Q.   Do you agree that for them that was a lot more unfavourable, to

19     return to the TO and to the army and to go to the front line, that that

20     was a lot more unfavourable than doing police work in town?

21        A.   But of course.  They all wanted to be on the reserve police force

22     and to be policemen.  It would be a lot easier for them, a lot better.

23        Q.   Thank you.  In a way -- in this way the police was cleansed, and

24     it was a kind of punishment, wasn't it?

25        A.   Well, I assume that those who came in such a way had to leave,

Page 15748

 1     but it's obvious that persons who actually did have a criminal record and

 2     who were admitted without giving them clearance beforehand, this --

 3     someone simply said, "As of today, you are policemen."  This happened on

 4     a massive scale.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  And then it says:  "The special unit of the police

 6     station of Brcko that has 24 members is working in an unorganised way at

 7     their own initiative, wilfully, and that is not allowed."  Right?

 8        A.   Yes.  That kind of thing is not allowed.

 9        Q.   And then the next paragraph speaks about the crime investigation

10     department.  It says:

11             "As we were in Brcko, this department was constituted and it

12     started operating in keeping with the conditions there.  The department

13     started collecting intelligence and other information of interest to the

14     crime investigation service, homicide, rape, murder, et cetera.  Since

15     most of them were admitted by the public security station of Brcko, it

16     was agreed that intelligence should be gathered and that after that, as

17     the armed conflict ended in Brcko, then in the territory of Brcko other

18     measures should also be taken against the said persons."

19             Could you now please look at the last paragraph:

20             "The public security station in Brcko, as for paramilitary

21     formations Captain Dragan, the so-called Chetnik units from the area of

22     Bijeljina that are led by a certain Goran Jelisic and the self-styled

23     Chetnik units from the area of Ugljevik.  These units are actually

24     exercising pressure against these public security stations and on two

25     occasions -- actually, can we have the next page.  An armed attack was

Page 15749

 1     attempted against the police station in Brcko.  Did you know about that

 2     just before you arrived in Brcko?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  And then further on it says that some goods were

 5     found, some stolen goods.  The value of these goods was about 200.000

 6     Deutschmark, and then it says:

 7             "Afraid of self-styled vojvodas, majors, generals, policemen

 8     still conduct their work with some fear.  We have seen that these persons

 9     do not stop at using weapons even against their close associates."

10             And further down it says somewhere that a certain Goran Jelisic

11     committed crimes, rape, murder of innocent Muslim civilians.  This same

12     person was bragging about his misdeeds in Brcko and Bijeljina.  Policemen

13     are fearful whether he's going to draw a gun at them too if he says them

14     and if a policeman looks at him in a way that he doesn't like, he would

15     draw a gun at him?

16             Had you heard of this fear and terror in Brcko?

17        A.   Yes, I heard about that.  The first thing I did was try to arrest

18     Jelisic as soon as I arrived in Brcko.

19        Q.   Further on it says:

20             "In order for the public security station to function in an

21     unhindered way, we believe that all paramilitary formations should be

22     expelled from this area.  Also, from the territory of Serbia the arrival

23     of paramilitaries should be banned altogether."

24             And then a bit further down, it says:

25             "We believe that it is indispensable to provide proper equipment

Page 15750

 1     to this SJB, especially communications equipment, teleprinters,

 2     telephones with neighbouring municipalities ..." and so on.

 3             Can we have the penultimate page.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters note:  We do not see the text at

 5     all.  We have no reference.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   So we saw that in the case of Brcko, there weren't even the right

 8     technical conditions for carrying out proper work.

 9        A.   It was insufficient.  These are very small hand-held radios that

10     are given to policemen who are on the beat.

11        Q.   This is what it says about the public security station in

12     Bijeljina, somewhere around line 10 or 12 or somewhere after CSB

13     Bijeljina:  "We were present during such an armed rebellion, when 550

14     members of Chetnik formations led by Vojvoda Mirko wanted to use land,

15     land, and other infantry and other artillery weapons to destroy the

16     security building in Bijeljina."

17             Can we have the last page, please.

18             This was signed by Dragomir Andan and Danilo Vukovic.  Did you

19     know this Vukovic as well?

20        A.   Of course I did.  He arrived when I came to Bijeljina, when I was

21     sent by the MUP -- or, rather, he was appointed head of the general crime

22     department, including homicide.

23        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, after such proposed measures, the MUP promoted

24     this man to chief of CSB, and he is also given to you as your liaison

25     officer in your operation of doing away with the paramilitaries,

Page 15751

 1     disarming them, and so on.

 2        A.   As I was sent to Republika Srpska, I first went to Pale where I

 3     talked to Mico Stanisic and Cedo Kljajic.  When a proposal was made for

 4     Andan to come from Brcko and to be a coordinator, Mico was against that

 5     energetically.  However, Cedo Kljajic insisted, and also what it says

 6     here, that when he went to Brcko, he compiled a good report showing that

 7     he did have knowledge and professionalism.  So that's what I was told

 8     when I came to Bijeljina, that Dragan Andan would be withdrawn from Brcko

 9     and that he would be appointed coordinator for me.

10             After 10 or 15 days, Dragan Andan was appointed chief of the

11     public security station in Bijeljina, acting chief, actually.

12        Q.   Of the centre of the security services or the public -- or the

13     public security station?

14        A.   The centre of security services for the entire region.

15        Q.   From the level of police inspector to --

16        A.   Head of the security services centre.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

19             JUDGE KWON:  This will be marked for identification.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D1436, Your Honours.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we now see 1D3619.

22     It need not be broadcast because there is a name that should not be

23     broadcast for the person's own protection.  It's not a guilty party, it's

24     a witness.  1D3619.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 15752

 1        Q.   Is this an order by the president of the Presidency, that is

 2     president of the municipality of Bijeljina, Cvijetin Simic, dated

 3     8 April, 1992, prohibiting the sale of alcoholic beverages to uniformed

 4     persons in the area of Bijeljina and envisaging sanctions in case of

 5     violation?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Does it look to you like fighting chaos or advocating chaos?

 8        A.   This looks like a decision to suppress chaos, but I can say with

 9     absolute certainty that nobody ever honoured that decision.  It was only

10     later in 1993 and 1994 that some catering establishments were closed down

11     or fined because they violated certain rules or worked longer hours than

12     allowed, but, yes, this is an order prohibiting the sale of alcohol.

13        Q.   We see at the bottom that a person is appointed to a certain

14     position, but that's a different topic.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D1437 under seal, Your Honours.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Can we see 1D3620.  We're now on the subject of Bijeljina, and

20     while we're on it, let's see what the authorities in Bijeljina were

21     trying to do.  1D3620.

22             8 April 1992, the very beginning of the war.  Presidency of the

23     Municipal Assembly of Bijeljina.  Cvijetin Simic, pursuant to his

24     authority, issues this order prohibiting the carrying of weapons in

25     public by persons not in uniform and unauthorised persons.  It says:

Page 15753

 1     Persons -- it says un-uniformed and unauthorised persons are hereby

 2     prohibited from carrying weapons without a permit in public within the

 3     territory of Bijeljina municipality and it envisions certain sanctions in

 4     case of violation.

 5        A.   I know about this order.  It helped me when I came there.  We

 6     enforced it, because many un-uniformed people carried ammunition belts,

 7     wore ammunition belts and carried even rifles.  There were even

 8     psychiatric patients whom I had known from before carrying weapons, going

 9     about town, and it was pursuant to this order that we were able to disarm

10     them, take them to the misdemeanour court, and I think this order had a

11     very good effect in the town of Bijeljina.

12        Q.   We have to clear up one thing for the sake of precision.  When

13     you mention the Crisis Staff, do you make a distinction between the

14     Presidency of the municipality, the Territorial Defence Staff, and the

15     Crisis Staff?  You see, on the 8th of April, Bijeljina does not have a

16     Crisis Staff any more.  It has a Presidency.

17        A.   Mr. Karadzic, you know that the Presidency in Bijeljina was

18     established already in April and was operative, but there was a

19     Crisis Staff that operated where the leading people in the municipality

20     met and made key decisions.  I don't know what that body was called.  All

21     I know is that the head of the Crisis Staff was Mauzer, and he was also a

22     deputy to the Municipal Assembly of Bijeljina.  He was not a member of

23     the Crisis Staff, but he was the chairman of the personnel commission, I

24     think.  But when certain decisions and restructuring were done regarding

25     the Crisis Staff, he took over the functions of the Crisis Staff,

Page 15754

 1     replacing Cvijetin Simic, and he didn't let Cvijetin Simic do any of

 2     that.  He wanted to do it himself.

 3             I don't know exactly how he did it, but I heard from people that

 4     he arrogated all this authority very brutally, and for a year or so he

 5     acted as the head of the Crisis Staff, as person number one in Bijeljina

 6     who was able to make any sort of decision, do whatever he wanted without

 7     being afraid of any punishment or even being confronted by anyone.  And I

 8     see that there are, on the other hand, very useful orders such as this

 9     one prohibiting the carrying of weapons in public, helping to restore law

10     and order.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1438, Your Honours.

15             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, in this context I'm just

16     wondering why the previous one was put under seal, because that's not --

17     not different from what -- what we have here from the former.  It's a

18     decision, so why would it be under seal?

19                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

20             JUDGE KWON:  Could you help us in this regard, Mr. Karadzic?

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I quite understand what

22     Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff is saying, because this passage that I didn't want to

23     be seen has not been translated.  The English version, in any case, does

24     not have to be under seal.

25             JUDGE KWON:  That being the case, we'll put it in the public

Page 15755

 1     domain.  Yes.  We admit it publicly.

 2             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I wonder, I thought this, what

 3     we have, the English translation would be reflecting the B/C/S document,

 4     but then I hear there is something not translated.  I'm just wondering

 5     what that is.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Was it the case or you just wanted not to

 7     broadcast the document?

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The second part, the untranslated

 9     one, refers to a different decision about an appointment, and it's not an

10     integral part.  It's not organically linked with this first order.  If we

11     go into private session briefly, I'll explain.

12             JUDGE KWON:  I think that's sufficient.

13             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.  Thank you, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Let's proceed.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D3621, please.

16             JUDGE KWON:  But we have to be very precise in terms of admitting

17     that document.  You need to redact the unnecessary part from the Serbian

18     version then.  Yes.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Correct.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Could you please focus on this.  In Bijeljina, at the session of

22     the Municipal Assembly, which is working on the 10th of April, the

23     Presidency of the Municipal Assembly made a decision to amend the

24     decision on the names of squares and streets in the town of Bijeljina and

25     the settlements of Janja and Dvorovi.  Take a look at this and I'll put

Page 15756

 1     this proposition to you:  Certain streets are renamed because they had

 2     been named by Partisans or Chetniks or whatever, Communist regime, and

 3     they are renamed to remove these Communist names.  Let's see what happens

 4     with Muslim names.  Number 4, Hamze Hamzic Street shall be renamed

 5     Mehmeda Spaho street.  So one Muslim name is being replaced by another

 6     Muslim name, correct?  Is that right?  Is it right that

 7     Hamze Hamzic Street, who was Muslim, probably a partisan fighter, is

 8     renamed Mehmeda Spaho Street; right?  And both of them were Muslims.

 9     It's not on the transcript.  Can we have an answer from you?

10     Mr. Davidovic?

11        A.   Yes.  You're asking me?

12        Q.   Yes.

13        A.   Yes, streets were renamed, but they were renamed into the names

14     of Muslims who were suitable in the eyes of Serbs.  For instance, the

15     street called Jaksic Brothers, was renamed into

16     Second Lieutenant Smajic Street.  Second Lieutenant Smajic got killed

17     fighting for the Serbian Army in Vukovar.  That's how they wanted to

18     acknowledge the fact.  Then the street you mentioned,

19     Hamze Hamzic Street, I can't see how it was renamed.  Mehmed Spaho.  You

20     know who Mehmed Spaho was and what role he played in the

21     Second World War.  So all of these are streets that were an eyesore to

22     the Muslim people, and they still want these streets to be renamed again

23     because there was the street that was renamed into

24     Serbian Volunteer Guard.

25        Q.   Let me put it to you that's my case, Mehmed Spaho was the leader

Page 15757

 1     of a pro-Yugoslav Muslim organisation.  His name is given to the street

 2     previously called Hamze Hamzic who was a Communist.  Then Fadil Jahic

 3     Spaniard Street, a fighter in the Spanish civil war, is renamed into the

 4     name of the member of the young Bosnia organisation; correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Karadzic please slow down.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, slow down and start again.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   So number 7, Brothers Jaksic street is renamed into

10     Second Lieutenant Smajic street, a Muslim who got killed in the JNA.

11        A.   Correct.

12        Q.   Jaksic Brothers, were they Serbs?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Point 9.  Ivan Markovic, Irishman Street is renamed Hasan Kikic.

15     Ivan Markovic Irishman is a Serb, whereas Hasan Kikic is a Muslim, an

16     author.

17        A.   Correct.

18        Q.   Point 12.  Patris Lumumba street, a leader of Angola, is renamed

19     into Camil Sijerica street, Camil Sijeric being a famous author?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Alija Alijagic street, and Alija Alijagic was a Communist and an

22     assassin of a minister before the war --

23        A.   Minister Draskovic in Zagreb.

24        Q.   -- is renamed into Meso Selimovic, a great writer of Muslim

25     origin; correct?

Page 15758

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Can we see the next page.  21, the name Muslim Brigades --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, while you're complaining about the

 4     shortage of time, I'm struggling to see the point of reading out all

 5     these names.  What's the relevance?

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, the war had

 7     already started, and in the renaming of streets there is nothing

 8     discriminatory or ethnic.  It is all about politics.  The names of Muslim

 9     Communists are replaced by the names of Muslim intellectuals, writers,

10     authors, people whose value is less transitory.  The point is that the

11     authorities in Bijeljina are making changes not on an ethnic basis but an

12     ideological basis, without removing Muslim names.  That's the point.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you allow me.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please spare us your comments.

15             JUDGE KWON:  No.  You can put your question simply, in a simpler

16     manner, but reading out all these streets names was pointless.  That was

17     my point.

18             Yes, since you've heard the accused, you are entitled to answer,

19     Mr. Davidovic.  Please go ahead.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You should not deprive me of my

21     right to comment.  If streets were renamed, I must tell you that some

22     streets were renamed four times during the war and some of these names

23     have been completely eliminated.  It's true that Muslim names were

24     sometimes given to Serbian streets with the aim of acknowledging people

25     who were taking the Serbian side, who were somehow suitable to the

Page 15759

 1     Serbian spirit.  You know who Meso Selimovic is.  All these people were

 2     close to the Serbian people and who supported the Serbian people in their

 3     literary or other work.  But Muslims never accepted the new names of

 4     these streets and they still challenge them and they still demand that

 5     streets be renamed back and that Meso Selimovic and Hasan Kikic and this

 6     lieutenant what's-his-name who replaced Jaksic brothers be removed

 7     because these names irritate the Muslims.  Why were these names given in

 8     the first place because it was effective vis-a-vis the Muslims.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Look at point 21.  Muslim Brigades Street - and Muslim Brigades

11     was a Partisan Communist brigade - is just renamed Muslim Street.  And my

12     case is that this is about ideology, not about ethnicity.  Those were

13     pro-Yugoslav Muslims, and the Serbian side wants and supports

14     pro-Yugoslav Muslims.  It's their right.  And the Muslims who were either

15     anti-Yugoslav or Communist were removed as street names.

16        A.   This street that you say was renamed Muslim Street was renamed

17     again a couple of months later.

18        Q.   My question is --

19             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. --

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Was the name of one Muslim replaced by the name of another

22     Muslim?  That's what I'm asking.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Please bear in mind the invaluable advice given

24     Judge Baird.  Put your question one by one, if you would like to get the

25     answer, if at all.  So this question was whether one Muslim name was

Page 15760

 1     replaced by another Muslim name.  Is that your question, Mr. Karadzic?

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No.  My question was whether the

 3     reason for these changes was ideological or ethnic, when the Muslim

 4     street names were removed or was that something that went along with the

 5     change of the system and a change of the favourites.  The Serbs favoured

 6     pro-Yugoslav Muslims and Muslim authors rather than the Muslim

 7     revolutionaries.  Was Hasan Kikic both revolutionary and a writer, but he

 8     was more a writer.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Would you like me to answer.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   No.  My question is whether he was a well-known writer and that

12     it was more important that he was a writer than that he was a

13     revolutionary?

14        A.   Yes, he was a writer.  Meso Selimovic was also a writer.

15     Ivo Andric is a writer as well but the Muslim population did not see him

16     as their writer; that's the problem.  He is a writer and we rightfully

17     treated him as one but the Muslim population did not accept him, for the

18     reason that they thought that it was at the detriment of the Muslim

19     people.  That was the reason why I'm saying this.  It was all calculated

20     to change names, to rename the streets after Muslims again, but people

21     who had sympathies for the Serbs.  You know why Meso Selimovic moved into

22     Belgrade and you know about the murder of his brother, so let me not talk

23     about this background information.  You know that all that was calculated

24     to irritate Muslims in this way, by letting them know who were the

25     Muslims who can be acceptable for the Serbs, those who were inclined to

Page 15761

 1     us.  I'm not going to say that writers were obeying us, but --

 2        Q.   Sir, Meso Selimovic is really a big writer.

 3        A.   Yes, yes.

 4        Q.   And in item 21, it says the Muslim Brigade Street change into

 5     Muslim Street.  So who doesn't like the Muslim Street?

 6        A.   You know how long it remained the Muslim Street?  They removed

 7     the name.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can it be admitted?  I wonder they

 9     did not remove them all.  Perhaps we should have named streets after the

10     Muslims who were Ustashas.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, please.  And don't ascribe to

12     me something I never said.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1439, Your Honours.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D3622, please.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, this is also a decision from the meeting of the

19     Presidency of the Municipal Assembly of Bijeljina, dated the 14th of

20     April, on the appointment of commission for enrolling children into the

21     first grade of primary school.  Number one primary school

22     Muhamed Mehmedbasic in Bijeljina.  Did you know that one of the schools

23     was called Muhamed Mehmedbasic and that he was a Muslim?

24        A.   This is the first time I hear about the name of this school and

25     it is the first time that I see that that was the name it had.  I never

Page 15762

 1     heard it or came across that that there was a school with such a name in

 2     Bijeljina.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please have a look at item number 2.

 4     Fatima Odzakovic was an employee.  She was a children's psychologist at

 5     this school.

 6        A.   Yes, but she was removed from office and left from the school.

 7        Q.   Do you have evidence?

 8        A.   Yes.  They wrote to us about this several times.

 9        Q.   Can we see the next page please.  Under item 5, Primary School

10     Meso Selimovic in Janja.  Psychologist teacher Jasarevic, Dzana; correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Do you see under item 6, Dzana Jasarevic was a children's

13     psychologist at another school in Glavicica?

14        A.   That was just one class in Glavicica.

15        Q.   Is this Dzana also a Muslim?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Can we see the next page just to see that it was

18     signed by Cvijetin Simic?

19        A.   Can you just tell me what date was that.

20        Q.   The 14th of April, 1992.  So it was in the middle of the war.

21        A.   It was at the outbreak of the war.  They were appointed on the

22     14th of April.  Were they still there in September when the school year

23     began?

24        Q.   Please let us stick to the subject.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would ask for this to be admitted

Page 15763

 1     now, and I will present another document.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  We'll mark it for identification.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D1440, Your Honours.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 8276, please.  Can we please

 5     have 1D3623, because I cannot identify the date here.  So we don't need

 6     this one.  1D3623, please.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

 8        Q.   This is a decision on maintaining law and order in Bijeljina.

 9     Cvijetin Simic once again.  The 28th of April, 1992, and item 1 talks

10     about maintaining law and order and that that can be done only by members

11     of active duty and reserve police.

12             In item 2, setting up local check-points in local communes is

13     prohibited and carrying out the said duties by civilians and other

14     unauthorised persons.

15             Would you agree that this is also the implementation of law and

16     order rather than implementing chaos?

17        A.   A decision about public law and order existed even before this

18     one.  Something was changed in certain items, among other things that it

19     was prohibited to set up check-points in villages and the decision on

20     public law and order and the security of traffic existed in the territory

21     of the municipality even before this was adopted.  So this was not the

22     first decision relating to public law and order that was adopted.  As far

23     as I was in the police there, such a decision existed and I was

24     responsible for its implementation.

25        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, why are you trying to devalue this?  Of course it

Page 15764

 1     existed, but then Simic was giving support to that, and you arrested

 2     people on the basis of that?

 3        A.   Absolutely.  Even if he hadn't, we would be acting in accordance

 4     with the previous decision.  So there is nothing contested about that.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have this admitted and have

 6     another document before the break?  Can this be admitted, please, 1D --

 7             JUDGE KWON:  We mark it for identification again.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  1D1441.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D3624, please.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

11        Q.   29th of May, same gentleman, Cvijetin Simic who is still

12     president of the presidency of the Municipal Assembly of Bijeljina.

13     Would you agree this is a conclusion the presidency of the Bijeljina

14     municipality is of the view that the armed and uniformed groups and

15     individuals who have come to the area of Bijeljina from elsewhere and

16     without an invitation by the legal authorities of Bijeljina municipality

17     act in a manner which gives rise to the violations of public law and

18     order and endangers the security situation.  In this connection, the

19     Presidency prohibits any engagement of any individual or group in any

20     other capacity in the organs of internal affairs or the Army of the

21     Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina as legal authorities, instructors or

22     any other capacity.  Would you agree that in this way the Presidency of

23     the Bijeljina also tried to defend itself from incursions by various

24     persons who were armed?

25        A.   I agree, but when I came there in the month of June, I found

Page 15765

 1     Pejo, who was Arkan's deputy in SUP and one Sasa who was a komandir of

 2     the police station.  He had that duty and held that position.  And the

 3     other one had the insignia of chief inspector, just as I did.  The

 4     decision was adopted in May.  I arrived in June, and I found him carrying

 5     out the duty of the commander of the police station.

 6        Q.   Just another question, Mr. Davidovic.  If they could implement

 7     their decisions through their police, would you have been invited?

 8        A.   I have to tell you something frankly.

 9        Q.   Please --

10        A.   No, please allow me.

11        Q.   You are trying to slander this leadership.  You said that they

12     liked the chaos.  You see that they didn't.  If they could have

13     implemented this decision without you would you have arrived at all?

14        A.   Mr. Karadzic, I arrived with 15 men.  What can 15 men do in such

15     a big area?  You did not ask me how come that you came with 15 men and

16     you did what you did in Brcko, Bijeljina, and Zvornik.  Bijeljina could

17     have done that.  It did not need the federal SUP, nor did anyone have to

18     come to help it disarm paramilitaries.  It had legal institutions, organs

19     and the police which was professionally trained so they could do that.

20     When I arrived I contacted the active duty policemen whom I knew.  I told

21     them to do what was in accordance with the law and I allowed them to do

22     that.  I didn't allow anyone to beat them, slap them across the face.

23     When they had this support for me as a police superior, the police really

24     started doing its work and public law and order was imposed in the town.

25     Fifteen men did not need to come there.  It was a small unit that did

Page 15766

 1     that.  You didn't ask me how I managed to do that with 15 men.  I didn't

 2     do it with 15 men.  I engaged active duty police then from Bijeljina,

 3     from Brcko and from Zvornik and I managed to reinstitute the legal

 4     authorities.

 5        Q.   And, Mr. Davidovic, did Mico Stanisic place Karisik and members

 6     of his unit at your disposal and give you authority to call for

 7     reinforcement from Brcko and from Zvornik?  Were you able on the basis of

 8     this authority given to you by Minister Stanisic to enlarge the units and

 9     to implement all this?

10        A.   As I said, I asked Mr. Stanisic not to give me Karisik or his

11     help.  I was afraid of Karisik's unit.  I believed them to be

12     unprofessional and incompetent, and this unit was not sufficiently

13     efficient to do this work.  At the insistence of Minister Stanisic, I

14     accepted the unit but I gave them peripheral duties that had to do with

15     dealing with the Yellow Wasps.  What proved that I was right was that

16     when I left Zvornik for Belgrade, this unit which was headed by Karisik

17     was let me not the same as the Yellow Wasps but it had similar impact on

18     the population as the Yellow Wasps.  They continued bringing into Muslim

19     apartments, seize them, live in them so they violated public law and

20     order and they also had serious problems with them just like when the

21     Yellow Wasps were in power.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted and,

23     Mr. Davidovic, none of that is true.  We'll prove that.  It was a high

24     profile and elite unit and you used it.  Can it be admitted, please, and

25     then we'll continue.

Page 15767

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

 2        Q.   Now, Mr. Davidovic, I'm asking you this:  Whether the authorities

 3     for whom you say in the paragraph that we referred to wanted to have

 4     chaos?  Were they trying to have law and order or chaos?

 5        A.   Well, what happened once that we left.

 6        Q.   Wait.  These authorities, this one is an active supporter of the

 7     Prosecution.  I'm trying to ask you whether they were trying to implement

 8     law and order and that you were invited on the basis of that, but you're

 9     saying, Yes, but.  You say, Yes, but.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Would you like to testify, Mr. Karadzic?  Refrain

11     from making comments, and please slow down.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, you at the very

13     beginning --

14             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Yes, Madam Uertz-Retzlaff.

15             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I observed that the witness

16     tried to answer twice now and he was basically shouted down.  This is

17     what I'm actually observing.  I think that should not be allowed, that

18     he's basically shouting the witness down.

19             JUDGE KWON:  I absolutely agree with you.

20             I think it's a perfect time to take a break.  We'll break for an

21     hour.  We'll deal with matters when we come -- yes Mr. Tieger.

22             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I indicated I would

23     respond to the court about the reply and the timing the Court indicated

24     it had would like us to have it in, by the end of the day.  If the end of

25     the day means close of business at 4.00 that would be difficult, but if

Page 15768

 1     it means sometime today, I think we can do that.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  That would be appreciated.  There's one further

 3     matter.  It may be better to be known at this moment.  On the day before

 4     yesterday, i.e., 28th of June, the Chamber admitted the associate exhibit

 5     tendered through Mr. Milorad Davidovic with the exception of 14

 6     statements which were listed in footnote 144 of his amalgamated statement

 7     and for which it indicated that a decision would be issued in due course.

 8     The Chamber has decided that these 14 statements would not be admitted

 9     into evidence on the basis of the established practice that when it comes

10     to the statements of third parties, unless a witness comments on and

11     confirms or adopts the content of that statement, the third party

12     statement would not be admitted through that witness.

13             We'll rise and adjourn for an hour, resume at 1.40.

14                           --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.40 p.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 1.43 p.m.

16             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

18             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  In relation to today's timing for the

19     witness, I would mention that I would have about 20 minutes to half an

20     hour of redirect.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

22             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.  Please continue.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24             Excuse me, can this previous document 1D3624 be admitted?

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

Page 15769

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1442, Your Honours.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, I'll try, because I'm pressed for time, to put to

 4     you as briefly as I can documents about the attempts to enforce law and

 5     order just before you came to Bijeljina.  1D3625, please.  This will show

 6     why you were invited.  1D3625.

 7             This first order, at the top I believe it's been translated, 11

 8     June, Cvijetin Simic as president of the Municipal Presidency issues an

 9     order, and ex officio, he's chairman of the Defence board of the

10     municipality.  The order is to place under single -- under the single

11     command of the Army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina all

12     armed units.  Does this order indicate that this had been a problem?

13        A.   Obviously.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  D1443, Your Honours.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D3628.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   25 June, perhaps one or two days before you arrived the same

20     Mr. Simic, president of the Municipal Assembly of Bijeljina passes this

21     conclusion which means the Assembly had convened and adopted this

22     conclusion:  "To uphold the decision of the government and the Ministry

23     of the Interior of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina to send

24     Special Police Units or a Special Police Unit to Bijeljina to protect law

25     and order in co-operation with the Bijeljina public security station in

Page 15770

 1     keeping with the regulation," and so on and so forth.

 2             Is this another preparatory step for this major operation of

 3     restoring order?

 4        A.   This is the first time I see this conclusion.  I didn't know it

 5     had been adopted, but obviously it had.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1444, Your Honours.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D3629, please.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   25 June, pursuant to the previous conclusion, the president of

12     the Municipal Assembly now issues an order:

13             "Prohibiting uniformed and armed persons from moving in public in

14     Bijeljina unless authorised," et cetera.

15             "All armed and uniformed persons whose presence in public is not

16     in accordance with this order are hereby to be removed from all public

17     places in the municipality of Bijeljina."  Is it what the order says?

18        A.   Yes, that's the gist.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, this 1D3629 will be admitted as Exhibit D1445.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now, please P1478.  It's a typed

22     page in English, 220, and in Serbian it's a typed page, 218.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   These are diary entries, entries in the diary of General Mladic.

25     We can move forward, perhaps, to earlier pages to see that it's the 23rd

Page 15771

 1     of June, just before you came.  P1478.  I could like to see the typed

 2     version, Serbian typed version pages 218, and the English typed version

 3     is page 220.  We can see that it's 23rd of June at 6.00 p.m.  Yes.  The

 4     page is 217.

 5             He notes down what I said:

 6             "Karadzic:  The following people are to go to Bijeljina tomorrow,

 7     Plavsic, Krajisnik, Mladic, Subotic, Gvero, Tolimir. "

 8             Next, I say:

 9             "Two groups of paramilitary units are active in Semberija

10     (Mauzer's and Blagojevic's) groups.  They are very extreme.

11              "All units must be placed under the single command of the army

12     and the police."

13             Next bullet point:  "In Bijeljina try to resolve the problem

14     politically.  They must not suspend the civilian authorities."

15             To the best of your knowledge were the civilian authorities in

16     the entire region including Zvornik and Bijeljina threatened by the

17     presence of these armed groups?

18        A.   I believe they were.  I believe in Semberija those authorities

19     were completely suspended because Mauzer had taken over completely as

20     president, as commander, as anything and everything and nobody was able

21     to confront him.  I'm talking about Mauzer, whose real name is Savic.

22             Now, as far as Blagojevic is concerned, my answer would be a

23     little different, and I believe it needs clarifying.  His role needs

24     clarifying, but only if you want me to.  I believe this reflects the real

25     situation in Bijeljina.

Page 15772

 1        Q.   But to assist you, we agree, don't we, that Blagojevic was a more

 2     positive character.  He protected Muslims, did not arrest them, et

 3     cetera.

 4        A.   Well, this would require a slightly broader answer, if the

 5     Trial Chamber allows.

 6             Mirko Blagojevic at the outset was one of the people who was part

 7     of this organisation, and then he transferred to Seselj's Radical Party.

 8     With the beginning of the war, there occurred a flash -- a clash between

 9     Mauzer and Blagojevic on personal grounds because Mauzer tried to

10     subordinate Blagojevic and to place Blagojevic's units under his own

11     command.  Blagojevic refused.  So at one point Blagojevic imposed a

12     complete blockade on Bijeljina, putting roadblocks on all access roads,

13     and of their own accord and self-will they arrested Mauzer, kept him in a

14     cellar, beating him.

15             I was around and General Gracanin gave me a call at the time and

16     told me that together with Pero Mihajlovic I should go to Bijeljina and

17     see what it's all about, to try to resolve this problem, to prevent

18     conflicts between Serbs.  I came there.  I found those roadblocks.  At

19     the moment when I entered the SUP building Mauzer came to -- had come to

20     the SUP a few minutes before me.  He had obviously been beaten.  He had

21     managed to escape that basement somehow, and that conflict dates back to

22     that time.

23             Well, at the time I came to the SUP, the entire municipal

24     leadership was there, and they were discussing precisely that.

25        Q.   Do you agree I could not have sent a stronger delegation to

Page 15773

 1     Bijeljina, Plavsic, vice-president; Krajisnik, speaker of the Assembly;

 2     Mladic; Subotic, et cetera?  Don't you agree that these were people of

 3     authority, a very strong delegation?

 4        A.   Yes.  Those people had the authority to deal with the problem if

 5     it could be dealt with.

 6        Q.   Could we see English page 313 and Serbian 311, also from the

 7     Mladic diaries, where he notes what I said.  It says:

 8             "Karadzic:  Regarding Muslims and Croats, we are going to build a

 9     state with a rule of law, not an ethnically pure one."

10             The typed version, 311.  Serbian typed version, 311.  The English

11     page is good.

12             We are looking at the English page.  Do you agree that it's not a

13     protest, it's a serious meeting discussing serious subjects?

14        A.   Yes.  I agree absolutely.

15        Q.   We'll continue.  We'll continue with these preparations to deal

16     with lawlessness.

17             Let's see how things -- what things looked like a bit later.

18     1D2751, please.

19             Do you agree -- I believe there is a translation.  Do you agree

20     this is a telegram from me to the Ministry of the Interior of 29 April

21     1994?  I'm saying the Main Staff had informed me that in several

22     municipalities, Teslic, Petrovo, Knezevo, Vogosca, Ilijas, attempts were

23     being made to set up paramilitary units?  And in the last paragraph I say

24     it's necessary for the organs of the Ministry of the Interior to get

25     involved in exposing and preventing these activities.  "All offenders

Page 15774

 1     should be sanctioned, and I need to be kept advised of this."

 2             Do you agree that's what I wrote to the minister?

 3        A.   Yes, in 1994.

 4        Q.   And it concerns fighting paramilitaries following a report from

 5     the Main Staff.

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  We'll mark it for identification.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D1446, Your Honours.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we now see

11     65 ter 13357.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Do you agree that on the same day I replied to the Main Staff,

14     personally to General Mladic, saying that I had ordered the Ministry of

15     the Interior to put in place these measures?

16        A.   Yes.  29 April 1994.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1447, Your Honours.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D3783, please.  I don't know if

22     there is a translation.  There is.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Do you agree on the same day the security advisor, on the

25     authority of the president and invoking the order of the Main Staff,

Page 15775

 1     requires Petrovo municipality - and there is a similar document sent to

 2     other municipalities - to report, and it says that what's going on there

 3     runs counter to the order of the president to disarm paramilitary units,

 4     and they require the municipalities to urgently inform the president of

 5     the measures taken.

 6        A.   I agree.  It's the same kind of document.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Davidovic --

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Exhibit D1448.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             MR. STRINGER:  You said yesterday that information about the

12     legal troubles of your son was a media affair and that it had something

13     to do with your testimony in Krajisnik.

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   After that, the Trial Chamber refused to admit those newspaper

16     articles and told me to show something else if I have it.  Can I now call

17     up 1D3800.

18             We gave an order yesterday to our investigators to collect

19     evidence, and we have this evidence now before us.  It has just arrived

20     today, but I'll read it because we have no translation.

21             The district prosecutor's office of Bijeljina.  I'll read it

22     slowly.  Number such and such, 30th June.

23             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I would actually oppose using

24     this document on the grounds of relevancy.  If I can see it here, it

25     relates to not the witness but the witness's son, and looking at the

Page 15776

 1     numbers, it seems to be matters from 2007, 2006.  I don't really see that

 2     there's any relevance to it.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, can you help us in this regard?

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  I have to note with regret

 5     that this witness very carelessly involved both his son and my family in

 6     his allegations, saying that his legal troubles resulted from his

 7     testimony in Krajisnik, and in paragraph 205, he states that his son was

 8     kidnapped, and that is also somehow connected, and he levies very serious

 9     allegations against prominent officials of the MUP of Republika Srpska,

10     and of course he associates that with his testimony in Krajisnik.  I am

11     very reluctant to deal with this, but this goes to credibility and the

12     essence of his evidence.

13             We now see that this has nothing to do with Krajisnik.  The first

14     criminal report was in 1993, and there have been eight judgements in

15     total up until 2005.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With your leave, I would not like

17     to enter into polemics with you.  My son is an adult, 40 years old.  He

18     bears responsibility for his own behaviour.

19             I'll say something else.  When his name is mentioned in newspaper

20     stories and --

21             JUDGE KWON:  He wasn't asking a question yet to you.  He

22     addressed me.

23             Mr. Karadzic, I think I told you we exhausted this issue

24     yesterday.  Move on to another topic, please.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With all due respect,

Page 15777

 1     Your Excellency, you said I shouldn't bring newspaper articles, but if I

 2     have something new, I should show it.

 3             This goes to credibility.  The witness associated the troubles of

 4     his son with his own testimony, which is not true.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   I'm asking you, Mr. Davidovic, out of these eight judgements,

 7     were five before 2005?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  No, no.  Just a second.  I will consult my

 9     colleagues.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber does not see the significant relevance

12     of this document.  Please move on to another topic.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In that case, will paragraph 205 be

14     excluded from the statement?

15             JUDGE KWON:  Please move on, Mr. Karadzic.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

18        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, after Bijeljina and Brcko, you were invited by the

19     local leadership to help resolve the crisis in Zvornik; correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   You testified about that also in Belgrade in the trial of

22     Branko Grujic and others from Zvornik; correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   1D3793, please.  It's the transcript of your testimony in

25     Zvornik -- I mean Belgrade, concerning the Zvornik case.

Page 15778

 1             Is it true that in Zvornik once again you concluded that the

 2     civilian authorities had no real power or ability to confront these

 3     people?

 4        A.   Yes.  That's what I said at the beginning.  When we arrived, they

 5     were completely sidelined, and this group of Yellow Wasps had placed

 6     those authorities, leadership, under their command and did whatever they

 7     wanted.  When they had done the job they had been paid for, then they

 8     turned into their own opposites.

 9        Q.   Can we see page 4 in Serbian and 5 in English.  It's the last

10     third in English, the last fourth in Serbian.

11             You say at all entry points in Zvornik they had their

12     check-points.  They had their own men.  They had full control over

13     everything going on in Zvornik.  And you say the authorities had no

14     power.  They were able to beat up policemen and anyone else; correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Can we now see Serbian page 5, English 6.  You say Jekic, Zugic,

17     and you think Popovic came to see you.  Jekic was from the MUP of Serbia;

18     correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Zugic is the Goran Zugic who, as you confirmed, was killed in

21     Podgorica and had served in the state security in Podgorica and then

22     moved to the Serbian side.

23        A.   Yes.  He moved to Zvornik to work for the state security there.

24        Q.   This Popovic was also a member of the Secret Service, but he hid

25     that and stayed in Zvornik under a false name.

Page 15779

 1        A.   He wasn't a member of the Secret Service.  He pretended to be,

 2     and he used a false name, but when I checked through the service to see

 3     whether he indeed belonged to the security service, whether somebody had

 4     sent him, I was unable to confirm that, and nobody in fact intervened for

 5     him on any issue.

 6        Q.   Serbian 6, English 7, please.  You confirmed on this page towards

 7     the top, the second third, that with Colonel Salapura and Karisik, who

 8     was a police general, which you did not mention here, you made a plan in

 9     which everybody was assigned a key task and Zvornik was cut off from

10     Vlasenica.  You had to cross a bridge to go to Zvornik.

11        A.   No, no.  It's not correct.  Karisik did not participate in

12     planning or this operation.  He was involved as a member of the special

13     unit he led, but he wasn't involved in the planning.

14        Q.   Then I have to read:

15              "Together with me, Petar Salapura was involved in the staff.  He

16     was a lieutenant-colonel or a colonel of the VRS.  He was in the command

17     together with me.  He planned and organised this operation."

18        A.   Correct.

19        Q.   "There was a special unit of the MUP led by Karisik."

20        A.   That's correct.  There was a special unit.  This Petar Salapura

21     was involved in the planning, in all the details, but Karisik did not.

22     His unit only participated in the liberation of Zvornik from paramilitary

23     units.

24             I'll tell you why you --

25        Q.   We don't have time.  Let me just read what you said.  It's all

Page 15780

 1     about precision.  Perhaps you did not make this error deliberately.

 2              "Milenko Karisik and I had an elaborate plan with detailed

 3     assignments," et cetera.  So Milenko Karisik participated in the

 4     planning?

 5        A.   He didn't.  He had an assignment.  I just told him what his

 6     assignment was in that plan.  He didn't participate in the planning, and

 7     he didn't know the whole plan.  He use knew his own mission in that

 8     population.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Did the -- did you say in that

11     transcript "Karisik and I had an elaborate plan"?  Could you read that

12     part?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I read or --

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That operation, there was a special

16     unit of the MUP led by Milenko Karisik, and we had an elaborate plan.  We

17     had an elaborate plan that means, where everyone got a detailed

18     assignment what and where they are supposed to do.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Thank you.  Then Jekic came to see you to ask your assistance in

22     disarming them.

23        A.   Yes, twice or thrice.

24        Q.   English page 7 -- sorry, 8.  He described what they were doing in

25     Zvornik.

Page 15781

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Can we see Serbian page 10, English 13.  You say when you made

 3     the arrests and neutralised this large group of 100 to 150

 4     paramilitaries, Branko Grujic, president of the municipality -- or,

 5     rather, the temporary government of Zvornik, couldn't believe it.  He

 6     even cried from joy.  Is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   That's English page 13, straddling 14.  Thank you.

 9             He couldn't believe it.  He asked you several times, "Is it

10     really true they were arrested?"

11        A.   And he said, "Will they be released?"  One woman who was on that

12     staff was from Sekovici, married to some doctor in Zvornik.  I knew her

13     name.  I forgot it.

14        Q.   Can we now see page 17, then 18 in English and Serbian 14.  I'm

15     confused Mr. Davidovic, because in Belgrade you said, "When I arrested

16     them, I knew it.  I took statements from them."

17             Whereas yesterday you told us somebody else took those

18     statements.

19        A.   Do you want an answer?

20        Q.   Doesn't it say here, "When I arrested them, I knew.  I took

21     statements from them."

22        A.   When we arrested them and brought them to Bijeljina, a group of

23     crime inspectors was set up located in offices interviewing several

24     people, taking statements.  As far as I was able to, I took the time to

25     visit all these offices, to listen for a while to these interviews and

Page 15782

 1     hear what the arrested men were saying.  So I didn't spend a lot of time

 2     on all of it, but I wanted to follow all this work, to be kept informed

 3     about what the service was doing, so I visited those interviews for a

 4     while.

 5        Q.   English page 22.  That's where you describe how it happened.  The

 6     Yellow Wasps were not always called Yellow Wasps.  They had a different

 7     name in the outset.  They were volunteers.  They went to the front line.

 8     When they got fed up with it, they came back to urban areas and

 9     established control there.  Correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Serbian, it's page 17 and 18, English 22.  Then English page --

12     sorry, Serbian 19, and English page 23, the last paragraph, then on to

13     page 24.

14             You said here and there that Batkovic camp had been formed by the

15     municipality as a labour camp.

16        A.   I said the same thing as here.  Before the decision was issued to

17     appoint the camp commander, the army had first approached the

18     General Dencic, and that was later confirmed by Colonel Ilic, and they

19     asked for premises for a facility where some sort of labour camp or a

20     collection centre for Muslims would be placed.  The municipality asked an

21     enterprise called Semberija, and this enterprise told them they could use

22     their facility in Batkovic where this company had one of its facilities,

23     agricultural facilities, large barns, large hangars where they kept

24     agricultural machinery.  They had large plots of land.  It was their

25     farm.  And the municipality then suggested to the army and gave its

Page 15783

 1     approval that the army may use it.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that somebody misinformed you?  Batkovic

 3     was a legal and legitimate camp for prisoners of war, not for Muslims who

 4     did not respond to call-up, as it says on page 24 in English and 19 in

 5     Serbian.  It was legitimate, and it was the only central prison for

 6     prisoners of war from which persons were exchanged.  Do you know about

 7     that?

 8        A.   In the beginning when the camp in Batkovic was established,

 9     persons were brought there from Brezevo Polje, also some persons from

10     Zvornik, and some from Bijeljina.  Later on when people found out about

11     this, because at first no one spoke about Batkovic in public, and I

12     remember the press conference that was held on that day in Bijeljina when

13     we arrested the Yellow Wasps.  That is when a large group of some 50-odd

14     journalists came from Belgrade, from Serbia, and they asked whether it

15     was true there was some camp called Batkovic somewhere, and they asked

16     whether I knew about that.  I was answering the journalists' questions

17     then, and I realised that that was the first time they started putting

18     serious questions about this camp.  Later on when this camp was taken

19     over by the military and, as I said, it was people from Brezevo Polje,

20     Brcko and Bijeljina that were kept there, also people from Zvornik,

21     Janja, et cetera, these persons were taken from there to labour on

22     Majevica, in the Semberija company, also in some companies like the

23     construction company Rad and so on.  They took them there and brought

24     them back, and later on this camp or -- well, this labour camp as they

25     called it, grew into a camp for prisoners of war.  I did not know that

Page 15784

 1     prisoners of war were kept there.  I did not realise that that was how it

 2     was defined later, that such persons were brought there, but I do know

 3     that the International Red Cross came later and that one knew who the

 4     persons there were kept and how many were there.

 5        Q.   1776 65 ter.  I need to call that up.  It's not on the list, but

 6     due to this answer of yours I have to ask for this document.  11776.

 7             This is a document of the Eastern Bosnia Corps.  It's got to have

 8     a translation, I think, because it's a 65 ter document, and instructions

 9     are being provided here concerning the organisation of life and work at

10     Ekonomija, and everything is prescribed there, what people do, when they

11     go out for a walk, everything.  Just look at this document.

12        A.   Yes, I've seen it.

13        Q.   So this was a camp for prisoners of war.  As for any proof of it

14     being something else, do you have any proof?

15        A.   I know of facts and I speak about facts, and I know people who

16     were there and who had work obligations who went there and came back and

17     so on.

18        Q.   Since there is no translation I will have to read out at least

19     the first paragraph.  It says:

20             "On the order of the commander of the East Bosnia Corps, strictly

21     confidential," et cetera, et cetera, "the instructions on the treatment

22     of imprisoned persons number," et cetera, et cetera, "on the 13th of

23     June, 1992, the ministry of the defence of the Serb Republic of

24     Bosnia-Herzegovina and regulations concerning International Law of War, I

25     hereby prescribe this instruction on the organisation of life and work in

Page 15785

 1     the camp and the rights and obligations of persons who are prisoners

 2     there."

 3             Do you see anything here that would be in contravention of the

 4     Geneva Convention?

 5        A.   Mr. Karadzic, I said that I knew about this when I came to

 6     Bijeljina because Colonel Ilic told me that in Batkovic there is this

 7     camp, that the commander of that camp was appointed and that the function

 8     of this camp was determined by the corps command.

 9             I would like to say something to you that is not included in

10     these instructions here.  Actually, beforehand, they came to different

11     facilities looking for something that would be a proper location for this

12     kind of camp.  It wasn't only Batkovic.  They had a few options, and they

13     visited them, and they even thought it would be near Ugljevik, near the

14     mine there, and then other places were considered too.

15             While this procedure was underway for this to be a collection

16     camp in Batkovic, a fence was being built, also a door.  Where the

17     machines were, they put up a door so that it could be closed.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Can we have the next page.  Item 10.  Actually, on

19     the top of this page it says, "Valuables, money, and other personal

20     property of value can be temporarily taken away and returned when persons

21     are dismissed from the camp ...," and so on.

22             And then item 10 says:

23             "A list of persons kept in this camp concerning their personal

24     details shall be submitted to the Red Cross of the municipality of

25     Bijeljina with a view to provide the information to their relatives and

Page 15786

 1     to the International Red Cross.  The persons who are kept prisoner have

 2     to be treated humanely and violence should not be applied against them.

 3     Exceptionally, if the prescribed order is disrupted, then measures of

 4     force may be applied."

 5             And also there's a reference to the entry of unauthorised

 6     persons.

 7             Do you agree that these instructions were written up in

 8     accordance with the norms of international humanitarian law?

 9        A.   Absolutely.  Despot, the first commander of the camp compiled

10     these instructions.  He was appointed by the military.  He was a

11     lieutenant-colonel.  He lived in Nis.  I know him personally, and I

12     personally discussed this with him.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

15             JUDGE KWON:  We'll mark it for identification.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D1449, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE KWON:  While we are waiting for the next item, Mr. Tieger,

18     I have just noted that a motion was filed in relation to the next witness

19     asking for a reconsideration.  We would be benefitted if we could have

20     your response by the end of today.

21             MR. TIEGER:  I've been in communication about that, Your Honour.

22     That may be -- well, it will be difficult.  Of course we'll try to do it,

23     but I wouldn't at this point want to preclude the possibility of the

24     Prosecution having to respond orally at the beginning of the day

25     tomorrow, but we'll do our best.

Page 15787

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 2             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D3793.  We're going back to that

 4     now.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   We're going back to the transcript of your testimony in Belgrade.

 7     Is it correct that this Djurkovic had his counterpart or partner on the

 8     Muslim side and that they were some kind of a commission for exchanging

 9     civilians and family reunification?

10        A.   As far as I know, on the other side there was also a person that

11     co-ordinated the work of these groups -- or, rather, the exchange of

12     persons.  This is a man who is a lawyer.  I think his name is -- now, was

13     it Bakir Pasic or -- I cannot remember right now.  There's so many names

14     in my head.  I think that it is Bakir Pasic.  He was born in Bijeljina.

15     There was full co-operation with him when persons were being exchanged

16     through institutions.  Then lists were provided to Djurkovic.  That is to

17     say persons that should be brought over for exchanges, because there were

18     some who asked through persons like Bakir to be brought in and then taken

19     to Tuzla, and in return Djurkovic asked for other persons of Serb

20     ethnicity be brought there and then exchanged.  These were contacts that

21     they managed themselves without involving persons who were in detention

22     or in prison or the like.

23        Q.   If I understand correctly, these were not prisoners of war but

24     civilians and their family members.  Is it correct that this Bakir gave

25     this wish list of the Muslims, which ones they wanted in Tuzla, and then

Page 15788

 1     he got from Vojkan the wish list of the Serbs, which are the Serbs they

 2     want from Tuzla?

 3        A.   Yes.  I know that.  People would say get my mother, get my

 4     father, et cetera, and then Djurkovic would say in return, "Bring me such

 5     and such a person who was in the territory of Tuzla."  And that's a fact.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  In Serbian it's page 20 and in English 25 and 26.

 7     They collected money for these services; right?

 8        A.   I think so.  I cannot be certain, but that's what I assume.

 9     Nothing was done free of charge in that war.  Everything had a price.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Now it's Serbian page 21 and English 26.  And you say

11     that the Serbs either from Batkovic or elsewhere were taken towards Brcko

12     or Ban Brdo in the territory of Majevica.  They would take them off buses

13     and have them exchanged; right?

14        A.   They would take them out of buses and if it was at Ban Brdo and

15     Majevica then they would be released and then they walked down a road

16     because that's where the separation line was, and then as they get close

17     to this zone where the Muslim forces are sometimes there would be

18     shooting, random gunfire, and then they'd wait there for a while and

19     sometimes they would be taken by trucks to Brcko and then they'd go to

20     the separation line near Rahic.  Again they would be released, crossed

21     the line kept by the Serb forces, and then they crossed the lines to the

22     Muslim forces and that is how they exchanged them.

23             Well, I mean they didn't exchange them.  That's how they took

24     them.  Exchanges took place later in a different way.

25        Q.   On page 21 in Serbian, 26 in English, you mentioned that there

Page 15789

 1     was some agency, some tourist agency within the SUP where you could

 2     legally apply, give 2.500, hand over a passport ten days in advance and

 3     in the amalgamated statement you corrected yourself and you said it

 4     wasn't in the MUP but that the MUP -- sorry.  Actually, on page 21, have

 5     a look at it.  Within SUP it was established, or rather, a travel agency

 6     was established.  Actually, it was another witness who said where it was

 7     and that it was legal.  Legally people would apply, pay, hand over their

 8     passport and then travel abroad; right?

 9        A.   Yes.  There was this organisation attached to the SUP or

10     whatever, but I know that Kovac gave his consent at the time to the

11     effect that Muslims who wanted to leave certainly had to pay from 2.500

12     to 5.000 marks.  Some were actually staying at a hotel waiting for a

13     certain group to be established, then contact would be established with

14     the MUP of Serbia.  At that point in time, it was Puzovic who was head of

15     the border department and then co-operation would be established and an

16     agreement would be reached as to how many buses should be there.  Then

17     Vojkan Djurkovic would head that column, take over these persons and

18     sometimes escort them with police cars to Sentilj.  No, not Sentilj,

19     Horgos, on the Hungarian border near Subotica and then they'd take them

20     to our border.  They would check their passports.  They would let them go

21     towards Hungary.  The Hungarians didn't want to take them in, and then

22     between the two borders a group of buses would spend a day or two or

23     three there until the Red Cross arrived, took them over and then put them

24     up in different countries in Europe.

25        Q.   Thank you.  On page 29 Serbian, 37 English, you call these

Page 15790

 1     persons who you arrested dogs of war.  Do you still stand by that?

 2        A.   Yes.  That is a name used for person who go wherever there is a

 3     war in order to be able to loot.  They stop at nothing.  They only pursue

 4     their own interests and they find it in looting.

 5        Q.   You repeated on page 40 in Serbian, 51 English, that you were

 6     asked to come on the basis of the conversation at that took place between

 7     Panic and Karadzic.  That is the Yugoslav Prime Minister Panic; right?

 8        A.   Yes, yes.  Everything I said here as well.  That is what I was

 9     told at the time, that it was at your request at the time.

10        Q.   On page 41 now in Serbian, 52 in English, it says the

11     Presiding Judge is asking you did you know that later on proceedings were

12     stopped against these persons?  This is a reference to the Yellow Wasps.

13     They were no longer in detention, and the proceedings were suspended.

14             "Answer:  No, I just know that they were released from detention

15     and I know what happened to Vuckovic.  I was with my unit in Pljevlja at

16     the time ...," et cetera.  So you said that you did not know at that

17     point in time that proceedings had been stopped but you did know that

18     they were released from detention?

19        A.   Mr. Karadzic, I never said that proceedings against them were

20     stopped.  I've been saying throughout that proceedings were against them,

21     but they were actually in detention for 30 days and then released.  I see

22     that this document in front of me Serbia is asking for a continuation of

23     proceedings and so on.  However, these proceedings were never brought to

24     an end in Bosnia.  Information was sought, and the proceedings stopped at

25     that point because these persons went to Serbia and never came back.

Page 15791

 1     Although they actually did come back.  They did cross the border.  They

 2     did come to Zvornik and Bijeljina, but these proceedings were not

 3     completed.  It was only later on the basis of what you said yourself and

 4     on the basis of information gathered by the Republic of Serbia through

 5     their subsequent activities.  They came to learn that crimes had been

 6     committed and then proceedings were instituted much later in Sabac on the

 7     basis of the information that they had had.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Where were the Vuckovic brothers arrested?

 9        A.   In Sabac.

10        Q.   You arrested them; right?

11        A.   Not I personally, but Dragan Andan and three other members of the

12     federal SUP.

13        Q.   And then the proposal was -- actually, Sabac is in Serbia; right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   The proposal was to have them transported to Bosnia while their

16     followers were arrested in Zvornik itself, Republika Srpska; right?

17        A.   That's right.  They were in Zvornik all day long until late at

18     night, but they were afraid of being arrested.  And during the night they

19     would cross the Drina River and spend the night there.  I was not aware

20     of that.  As I was preparing to carry out this operation, Jekic came to

21     see me and said to me, inter alia, I'm offering you this possibility to

22     arrest Zuco and Repic, because during the night they are not in Bosnia.

23     And I asked how come he knew, and he said I know they're in Sabac and I'm

24     offering this to you.  You can arrest them in Sabac, in Serbia, and you

25     can bring them to Bosnia.

Page 15792

 1             I accepted to look into that, and then I was told that I would be

 2     given this possibility of arresting them, taking them to Bosnia, and then

 3     he said and then we would arrest them and in this way kill them and close

 4     the page regarding these fools.

 5             I actually violated this agreement, because proceedings were

 6     underway after I arrested them.  In Serbia, they didn't even know about

 7     this when this proposal was made, along with a criminal report three days

 8     later, I received -- well, not exactly threats, but I was criticised.

 9     They were asking what I had done.  They wanted to get me there.  They

10     wanted me -- they wanted to make me do something illegal, and then they

11     would say, Uh-huh, now you have to do what we tell you to do.  I managed

12     to save myself.  I did not do anything that would be held against me

13     later.  However, this was held against me in Serbia, and I had very

14     serious problems because of that.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Let us focus on page 43 in Serbian and 54/55 in

16     English.  In Davidovic just now described this offer to have them

17     arrested in Serbia, brought over to Bosnia -- or, rather,

18     Republika Srpska, and be liquidated there, and they ask you why.  You

19     explain why.

20             Let me ask you, Mr. Davidovic, were you sorry about me as the

21     president of the country in which one Pavlovic or Popovic and one Jekic

22     were doing what they wanted and wondering whether they would arrest or

23     liquidate someone in the country that I was responsible for?

24        A.   I must say, Mr. Karadzic, that as president you had great

25     responsibility at the time, but I reflected about this frequently,

Page 15793

 1     whether you knew all this or whether you couldn't prevent it, but

 2     objectively speaking, there was great chaos.  And how was it possible

 3     that you didn't manage to find associates who were trusted men, who were

 4     able, and who were willing to do everything in accordance with the law,

 5     because I see that you insisted on these legal measures.  I must say that

 6     up until today or yesterday, I didn't know that you wrote so many orders

 7     and requested that legal measures be taken, and your name was always

 8     mentioned in any context.  Whatever anyone did, he always claimed to have

 9     the approval of President Karadzic.  Krajisnik or Karadzic were those who

10     decided.  I did reflect about this and I must admit that sometimes I

11     wondered why did he invite us to come over when all that was happening

12     and taking place?  I tried to be, let me not say realistic, but I was

13     thinking as a professional how was it possible that no one did what we

14     had to do, because it was nothing that required special -- a special

15     level of professionalism.  It's a daily job for the police.  You just

16     have to be decisive enough and professionally capable of doing it

17     properly, if they had your support.  And I see through all this they

18     could have had your support, so they shouldn't have been afraid of

19     possible consequences of such activities.  If I had known of this

20     support, I would have returned from Serbia to the MUP and I would have

21     placed myself at your disposal, and you may be sure that you wouldn't be

22     sitting here today.

23        Q.   Thank you.  You had, in addition to your 15 men, another 300 men

24     at your disposal from the army, from Salapura and from Stanisic from

25     police; correct?

Page 15794

 1        A.   Yes.  That was a significant armed group, and when we entered

 2     Zvornik that implied combat activities.  That is to say, we fired shots,

 3     they were shooting at us.  Someone could have gotten killed on either

 4     side, but fortunately, no one got wounded.  And I must say we used more

 5     chemical weapons to chase them out of apartments and houses and in this

 6     way we arrested them.  So we prevented any killings in the shoot-out

 7     between us.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Please slow down and note how your question was

 9     reflected in the transcript and please slow down.

10        Q.   It has not been recorded.  You are right when you said that I

11     said that Mr. Davidovic, in addition to his 15 men, had at his disposal

12     from our police and our army an additional number of up to 300 men and

13     you arrested a total of almost 200 men, about 180 members of the

14     Yellow Wasps; correct?

15        A.   Yes.  I just need to clarify the number of 300 men.  When I went

16     to Bosnia, primarily to Bijeljina, I knew what people I would have at my

17     disposal in Bijeljina.  I also knew some of the people in Brcko,

18     primarily, I have in mind the active duty policemen.  And when, in

19     addition to my 15 men, I would have 50 or 60 professionally trained

20     policemen from Bijeljina, a part of the military police from Bijeljina, I

21     would also have the support of people in Zvornik who were also active

22     duty policemen.  I had a military unit which was sent by the Main Staff

23     and Karisik's unit, numbering 150 men.  I was then certain that they

24     couldn't slip away or put up such resistance that we would have to

25     withdraw.  I knew that we could carry out this task and this is why I had

Page 15795

 1     to organise such a number of men from the police on such a large scale

 2     that is to say.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  You were asked a similar question by a member of the

 4     Trial Chamber, Judge Olivera Andjelkovic in Belgrade, on page English 59

 5     and in Serbian it's page 46, and then on page 47.  And on page 47, you

 6     say, answering to the question, "Local, could it be local or a wider

 7     level?"

 8             And you say:  "What do you mean?  It was the same everywhere.  In

 9     Brcko there was a man with a pony-tail and in sneakers and he would say I

10     am the commander of the police ..."

11             And so on and so forth.  Please have a look at paragraph 1 on

12     page 47, "Where it was very dangerous," it says, "to kill a man.

13     Immediately he would kill you.  He came there and he was killing ...,"

14     and so on and so forth, "he was not -- he did not report to anyone if you

15     looked at him he would kill you."

16             So you were aware then that the local forces cannot deal with you

17     or put up any resistance unless they got some reinforcement.

18        A.   Just to make it clear, police is quite a strong force.  If it is

19     well organised, as in Brcko, there were almost 90 active duty policemen

20     plus the reserve composition of the police.  The groups that arrived were

21     always numbering 15, 16, 20 men.

22             As soon as they arrived, the paramilitaries would enter the SUP,

23     and it's interesting that they would enter the SUP, they would introduce

24     themselves, and say we are such-and-such forces, we are the Eagles, we

25     are Arkan's men, we are the Red Berets, and they would take over the

Page 15796

 1     positions and everyone in the SUP would keep silent from the superiors to

 2     active-duty policemen, and wait to see what these men would do.  This is

 3     something I could never understand.  When I came to a SUP, particularly

 4     when she asked me about Brcko, it's correct, I came in front of the

 5     Brcko SUP building and a young man who was wearing some sort of

 6     camouflage uniform and a hat on his head, he was wearing white sneakers

 7     and he had gloves without the tops of the fingers with a Heckler in his

 8     hands, and he asked me, "Who are these men?"

 9             And I said, "Well, I'm the chief inspector, Davidovic."  And I

10     asked him, "Who are you?"

11             And he said, "I'm the station commander."  And again he asked me,

12     "Who are you?  What do you want?"

13             I had to tell him, "I am the state."  What else can you say to

14     such a person at such a moment?  I am the state.  I am the official state

15     organ.

16        Q.   He would say that?

17        A.   No.  I said that.  And immediately I would arrest him on the

18     spot.  People I had with me were quite well trained to one single sign

19     from me.  They could take care of such a man.  This -- so this is what I

20     did.  So when I arrested three, four, or five men that I found in the

21     SUP, at that moment the situation would change.  A new situation would

22     arise.  Those who were not really official members of the organ would try

23     to flee, try to hide, and I would reconstitute the active duty policemen,

24     who would begin to work.  We would have to go to the municipality, we had

25     to take over the municipal building and we would reinstate the legal

Page 15797

 1     organs which had to do their work.  We were doing this in Brcko, in

 2     Bijeljina and in Zvornik.  In Zvornik, it was somewhat more difficult,

 3     but we did the same there.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Let me remind you, do you remember and do you agree

 5     that Andan in his analysis about Brcko said that they are grateful to the

 6     army, that it allowed 120 or 150 policemen to return from the front line?

 7     The fact that regular police had to go out onto defence lines, was it

 8     something that also had a negative impact on the implementation of law

 9     and order?

10        A.   Well, I did not want to comment on what Dragan Andan said and

11     which you presented to me.  I passed over it in silence for a simple

12     reason.  You are angry when I'm not answering by saying yes or no but

13     provide explanations, but once again I'm in a situation where I have to

14     say something.

15             In Brcko, members of the reserve force were those who committed

16     crimes.  Jelisic wore a police member's uniform.  He was a policeman, a

17     reserve policeman.  What happened?  They came from Bijeljina to liberate

18     them, and they sent active duty policemen to the front line and people

19     from the outside came in such as Jelisic, Sasa, Pejo.  They're all the

20     same types, one criminal next to another, and they took over the power.

21     So imagine Jelisic who gives him -- himself the right to mistreat people.

22     If people were standing in a line to get a passport he would take someone

23     out of the line, take out a gun and kill him.  He's a member of the

24     police, reserve police and it was passed over in silence by police

25     officials and active duty policemen, by the military, by the leadership.

Page 15798

 1     No one said a word.  The members of the Crisis Staff thought that the

 2     liberators had come, those who were the liberators believed that they

 3     came to do whatever they liked and they did do that.  So the whole

 4     problem was that police mixed with such criminals.  They were commanded

 5     by Pejo, by one Sasa or some Legija and so on, and without right to

 6     decide anything or do anything about that.  This man would kill someone

 7     in the street and he would remain a member of the forces legally without

 8     anyone even asking him, How come you did that?

 9        Q.   Until they sent Andan to make an assessment, and on the basis of

10     assessment, they invited you?

11        A.   Once an assessment was made and when the leadership of the Crisis

12     Staff realised what was happening then they asked me and begged me.  I

13     was supposed to go to Zvornik first and they said, first go to Brcko,

14     please.  We have finished this.  It's a question of one day or the next

15     when we would all be killed.  And if you allow me I will tell you another

16     detail which I deem to be interesting.  While we were discussing with the

17     Crisis Staff in Brcko, on the premises of the MUP, and deputy Beli was

18     also there he was the president of the executive council of Markovic, I

19     think was his name and the garrison commander was there, the chief of the

20     SUP, and even the priest from Brcko was present.  Seven or eight people

21     were there at the Crisis Staff.  And while we were talking I noticed that

22     some vehicles, jeeps without roofs were circling around the MUP building.

23     People wearing hats on their heads, dangerous guys as one might call

24     them.  The dogs of war, the criminals who managed to get weapons.  They

25     were circling around the MUP and one of the people from my escort entered

Page 15799

 1     and said, "Commander, it seems that we are encircled."

 2             The leadership was frightened.  It was a very complex situation.

 3     We went outside and I told them, Don't be afraid.  I went outside of the

 4     building a minute or two later.  Four, five vehicles arrived and some

 5     young men came out, but the men I had with me were highly trained.  They

 6     were Specials.  I need to explain that the Special is someone who was

 7     trained at the police and had been trained for years to carry out special

 8     tasks.  They don't do patrols.  They just do exercises.  They do Judo,

 9     shooting exercises, and so on.  They can do anything that is requested.

10     I had 15 such mean with me, and quite understandably, I went outside.

11     When they approached me one of them asked me, "Who is the boss here?"

12     They would point me.  I was standing next to a vehicle.  They asked me

13     who I was and what I wanted to Brcko.  I was armed as well.  After a few

14     seconds, I would just give a sign to the police and in two minutes they

15     would have them all down on the ground.  We would have a van, and we

16     would put 10 or 12 people inside, and we would quickly drive to Bijeljina

17     to get out of the encirclement.  After 10 or 15 minutes, they would call

18     me by a radio from Brcko, "Mico Davidovic, do you hear us?"

19             I wouldn't answer and then Lieutenant-Colonel Milicevic - I

20     cannot remember his name - called me and said, "Please, Davidovic, can

21     you answer."

22             I could see it was serious.  I would answer and then I would get

23     one of those who had remained in Brcko and he would say, "Unless you

24     release those you have arrested, we will kill a man every five minutes, a

25     deputy, a commander of the staff, and so on."

Page 15800

 1             So how can I react otherwise than say feel free to kill them?

 2     "You have no reason not to kill them but remember I will arrest you all.

 3     I have you now.  You cannot leave Brcko.  I will have you."  And then

 4     they would say, "Well, we're not going to leave Brcko, only with our legs

 5     forward, that is to say, dead."

 6             So that was the end of that part.  We would arrest them in the

 7     morning, in the early hours at 2.30 a.m. we would enter Brcko just as we

 8     did in Zvornik then we would release people from the hangar.  We would go

 9     and find the Red Berets who were quartered there.  They were criminals,

10     they had truck trailers full of goods, they were about to depart, and

11     then once we had done all that, we would organise a meeting with the

12     Crisis Staff.  After that, we would have a meeting with the police.

13     Usually the deputy minister or the minister himself, Mico, would arrive.

14     We briefed him about what we did and ten days later, or three or four

15     days, we would maintain the situation until the newly appointed commander

16     and everyone else began to work properly and the police station began to

17     function as it should have.

18        Q.   Thank you for this vivid description.  Just another question on

19     page 86 in Serbian and 108 in English about a conversation or, rather,

20     cross-examination.  Branko Grujic asked you whether you knew that he

21     personally went to see Radovan Karadzic together with the chief of the

22     SUP to tell them that he couldn't live because of these people in Zvornik

23     any more.  Is that correct?

24        A.   Yes, yes.

25        Q.   I can see what the time is.  Unless the Trial Chamber allows me

Page 15801

 1     some time tomorrow, I would like to thank you, Mr. Davidovic, and to

 2     express my regret that I did not see you before the trial just in order

 3     to specify some terminological imprecisions because I think a great deal

 4     of the problems arise from precise formulations which are very important

 5     for me as the Defence, whether it is the Crisis Staff or the staff of

 6     Territorial Defence or the War Presidency and so on, and we have to

 7     clarify what is rumour, and what is libel or slander, and what is

 8     something that is really certain information.  Thank you for doing what

 9     you did when you helped in maintaining law and order there.

10        A.   I wish to thank you.  I'm sorry that in my capacity as a witness

11     I said what I have, but I really tried to say only the truth, which is

12     not pleasant at all.  The truth is such as it is.  From the very

13     beginning, I said everything as it was.  I never imagined anything.  I

14     just said what the situation was like, what I did, who I contacted with,

15     who I talked to.  There is no need for me to distort anything, to say

16     anything that I don't know directly.  I am a serious man.  I have a

17     family.  I wouldn't allow myself to do that, but, Mr. Karadzic, you tried

18     to communicate with me or rather your Defence team and, unfortunately,

19     you tried to do that through Cican Simic, the one who is mentioned in all

20     these orders, and no one from the Prosecutor's office or the Tribunal

21     knew that before.  I didn't even know that I would be a witness here, nor

22     did anyone tell me that I would come to testify as a Prosecution witness

23     in your trial.  And I must admit that I reflected earlier and I even told

24     that to the Prosecution when I testified the second time with

25     Mr. Stanisic, I said, please, don't invite me again.  I am not a paid

Page 15802

 1     witness.  I have had some unpleasant situations because of that.  Please

 2     do not invite me, do not summon me.  If I do not have to be a witness,

 3     try to find a resolution so that I don't have to be a witness in the

 4     Karadzic trial.  However, I was requested to have a meeting without the

 5     Prosecutor's office or ICTY knowing about that, and I refused any such

 6     contact because I thought that was sidestepping legal organs and

 7     institutions.  I think it was even blackmail because of some proceedings

 8     that were in progress, and I simply said I'm not going to talk with

 9     anyone from your side.  That was the main reason.  Apart from that, when

10     I was a Prosecution witness in the Stanisic case, I talked to his Defence

11     and Mr. Stanisic, as far as I know, as far as I learned through his

12     Defence team, did not complain about my testimony.  He said what he said

13     is true, and I cannot refute what is true.  This is the reason why I was

14     slightly surprised about the way you tried to communicate with me,

15     sometimes angrily insulting me and questioning my integrity and my

16     family.  But you have the right to defend yourself.  I understood you.

17     It's not pleasant for you, it's not pleasant for us, but this is a job

18     that we all have to do; it's simply like that.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Davidovic, I have to say something to you.  We

20     talked to 80 per cent of the witnesses here and also this last question I

21     have for you, please.  Do you have any proof of my brother Luka or my son

22     having a single commercial enterprise with Republika Srpska or knowing

23     Vojkan.  Let us try to see specifically what is a rumour and what is not.

24     I am saying to you that my family was not involved in any kind of

25     business because I had prohibited that and none of them know Vojkan.

Page 15803

 1        A.   Believe me, I know this from Vojkan and from persons close to him

 2     that through him he was establishing contact with you.  I don't know how

 3     true that is.  He also mentioned Momo's brother there as well.  He didn't

 4     say I went directly to President Karadzic.  He said through Luka, I took

 5     care of all of that, and so and so forth.  You know full well who

 6     Vojkan Djurkovic is.  I don't know whether this Court had the opportunity

 7     of seeing him.  He's a very dangerous type.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely negative, an absolutely

10     negative person.  He is what he is.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. Davidovic.  We tried to

12     conclude your evidence today, but evidently Madam Uertz-Retzlaff wants to

13     have some further re-examination tomorrow morning.  So we rise today and

14     we'll begin tomorrow morning at 9.00.

15             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If Mr. Davidovic is coming back

17     tomorrow, can the Defence have a bit more time just to deal with one

18     particular topic, just to see what rumours are and what facts are, to

19     spell that out precisely?

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE KWON:  You will have a quarter of an hour tomorrow morning,

22     but please bear in mind the Chamber is not interested in rumours.

23             Tomorrow morning, 9.00.

24                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.04 p.m.,

25                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 1st day

Page 15804

 1                           of July, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.