Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 16647

 1                           Friday, 15 July 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.  Good morning, Mr. Gasi.

 7             THE WITNESS:  Good morning.  [Interpretation] Good morning,

 8     Judge.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Gaynor, have you come back with the

10     analysis of your associate exhibits?

11             MR. GAYNOR:  I have indeed, Mr. President.  I'll just read the

12     associated exhibits into the transcript if I may.  We'll be tendering

13     65 ter numbers 08174, 07669, 07466, 08405, 06940, the next one has

14     already been admitted as P102.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  7466 and what is the number after

16     7466?

17             MR. GAYNOR:  8405.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

19             MR. GAYNOR:  Then 6940.  The next has been admitted as P102.  The

20     next is 7485.  7345.  11439.

21             JUDGE KWON:  11439, yes.

22             MR. GAYNOR:  7629.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

24             MR. GAYNOR:  7774.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, but I think that's a duplicate or copy of

Page 16648

 1     11441, and I think that 11441 is of better quality.

 2             MR. GAYNOR:  Very well.  Mr. President.  We'll tender 11441.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 4             MR. GAYNOR:  The next is 06959.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 6             MR. GAYNOR:  7113.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 8             MR. GAYNOR:  40188.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

10             MR. GAYNOR:  7950.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

12             MR. GAYNOR:  7676.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

14             MR. GAYNOR:  That ends the associated exhibits, and we've

15     uploaded as P3002 the transcript of the evidence of this witness redacted

16     in accordance with Your Honours' decision.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you very much.

18             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.  Please continue your

20     cross-examination.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Excellency.  Good

22     morning Excellency.  Good morning everyone.

23                           WITNESS:  ISAK GASI [Resumed]

24                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

25                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:  [Continued]

Page 16649

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Gasi.

 2        A.   Good morning, Mr. Karadzic.

 3        Q.   We left off yesterday when I asked you for how long you were a

 4     member of the SDA and the Executive Committee and I was a bit perplexed

 5     with regard to that.  You said that you were in that position only for a

 6     few months before the election, but in some states -- statements you say

 7     that you were a member between the 26th of May 1990 and November 1992?

 8        A.   It is possible, but let us -- let me make it clear for you.  I

 9     can tell you that I intimately still feel a member of the SDS -- SDA.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Do not overlap, please.  Put a pause.  Mr. Gasi,

11     just wait before you start answering, please.

12             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.  Repeat your question.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   I'm not asking you in some negative context.  I'm just curious to

15     know in what capacity you participated in the political life of Brcko

16     after the elections.  Did you participate in the political life in Brcko

17     after the elections?

18        A.   Absolutely not.  Once I resigned as a member of the Executive

19     Committee, I never attended a single meeting of the SDA party in Brcko.

20        Q.   Very well.  But if you were a member until November 1991, that

21     means to say that during that period prior to multi-party elections for a

22     year you took part in the political life.

23        A.   Yes, but only up until the elections.  Otherwise, I did not take

24     part in it afterwards.

25        Q.   In what capacity did you attend Municipal Assembly meetings?

Page 16650

 1        A.   Simply as an observer.

 2        Q.   Can we quickly look at 1D3893 in e-court.  Let's look at page 6.

 3     Here you confirm that you attended meetings of the Municipal Assembly.

 4     Can you see that if we can locate it.  Lines 1 and 2.

 5             [In English] "What were your duties in that capacity?"

 6             "Well, I attended meetings.  I did not have any special duties."

 7             "Do you recall the elections that were held in your area ...,"

 8     and so on and so on.

 9        A.   Yes, yes.  I attended rallies before the elections, but I did not

10     hold any position or any office.

11             MR. GAYNOR:  Objection to the question made by the accused.  He

12     said -- he's putting to the witness an inconsistency which is not, in

13     fact, in the transcript.  The previous page of this transcript states

14     that the witness's answer is:  "A member of the town's Executive

15     Committee of the town of Brcko."

16             And then the question comes:  "What were your duties in that

17     capacity?"  So in my submission Mr. Karadzic is deliberately mixing up

18     the Executive Committee of the town of Brcko and the Municipal Assembly.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. Gaynor.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With all due respect, the witness

21     confirmed, but I probably didn't give you the proper reference page, but

22     the witness confirmed and I know from other sources that he attended

23     Municipal Assembly meeting during the multi-party period.  That is what

24     he confirmed today as well and he did that as an observer.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 16651

 1        Q.   Is that correct?

 2        A.   Yes.  I believe I attended two such meetings.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  So were you familiar with the policies pursued by the

 4     SDA and the activists who were in the SDA in Brcko?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   You were among the top seven people in the SDA at the time.

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Did the SDA have a Crisis Staff in Brcko?

 9        A.   I don't know about that.

10        Q.   In your testimony in the Tadic case, you said that in Muslim

11     villages there were no weapons; correct?

12        A.   Not to my knowledge.

13        Q.   Let's look at a letter that you wrote to the "Ljiljan" magazine.

14     Will you please tell the Chamber something about this periodical?

15        A.   Mr. Karadzic, I did not write that letter, and I know nothing

16     about it.

17        Q.   That's not your letter?

18        A.   No, it's not.

19        Q.   How do you know which letter I'm referring to?

20        A.   Well, I've been asked before in this court about this letter, and

21     I'm telling you now that I'm not capable of writing such a kind of

22     letter.

23        Q.   Can we now have a look at 1D3888, and we'll see that perhaps

24     after all it was you who wrote that letter?

25        A.   Well, you can look at it as much as you want, but I'm telling you

Page 16652

 1     I'm not the author of that letter.

 2        Q.   Were you in this country that was blackened out here - I think

 3     it's Denmark - at the time?

 4        A.   Yes, I was in Denmark.

 5        Q.   The first sentence says that you are addressing the readership of

 6     the "Ljiljan" magazine, that you had listened to BH radio and then you

 7     are giving a comprehensive assessment.

 8             Can we have the last page, please.

 9             "Your loyal reader, Isak Gasi."  Is this your address?

10        A.   Yes, it is.

11        Q.   Is this your handwriting?

12        A.   Yes, it is.

13        Q.   Well, it seems that this is, after all, a letter that you wrote.

14        A.   The man who wrote this letter now lives in America.  He used to

15     be a journalist before the war in Brcko.  I did not write this letter,

16     although this is my address.

17        Q.   But you did read it, and you signed it, didn't you?

18        A.   I did not sign it in the sense to confirm that I authored it.  I

19     signed it as a reader who was interviewed by this journalist, but this is

20     not my letter.

21        Q.   Ah-ha.  So only the answers that you gave are yours?

22        A.   Yes, some of them.

23        Q.   Can we now have page 1.  Somewhere in line ten from the top, it

24     says that the preparation for the occupation of Brcko by the JNA started

25     several months before the war officially started.  "We, the naive

Page 16653

 1     Bosniaks, were led astray by our leadership."

 2             Do you think that the JNA was illegally in Brcko in 1991?

 3        A.   No, it wasn't illegally in Brcko in 1991.  Moreover, it was not

 4     an illegal force even until May of 1992.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  By the way, if this letter or interview, this

 7     article, is discussed in previous proceedings, why do we not have a

 8     translation?

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We sent it to be translated.  We

10     still haven't got it back, and I don't know whether it was translated for

11     the previous trials.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Let's continue.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Can we have page 2 of this letter, or apparently this was done in

15     the form of an interview, but it was printed in the form of a letter;

16     right?

17        A.   Yes.  You might be right.

18        Q.   Let's look at first two lines.

19             "When we saw that the devil came, we started to arm ourselves

20     covertly.  We paid 800 German marks for a single rifle."

21        A.   Well, you see this language that concerns the arming is nothing

22     that I uttered.  I did not discuss it with this gentleman.

23        Q.   Are you trying to say that it was his language and his

24     formulation?

25        A.   Yes.  I never said anything to this effect.  I never spoke about

Page 16654

 1     arming.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  In the Tadic case, on page 705 and 706, you testified

 3     that people in the Serbian villages wore military uniforms but that there

 4     were no such people in Muslim villages.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Are you telling us today that in April of 1992 there were no

 7     armed Muslims in Muslim villages?

 8        A.   As far as I know and as far as I was able to see, I saw none of

 9     them.

10        Q.   Can we now have 1D3893, which is your testimony in the Tadic

11     case.

12             Here you say that those were reserve uniforms of the JNA.  Does

13     that mean that these men were registered with the JNA, but according to

14     the law, were the people in Muslim and Croat villages also reservists of

15     the JNA?

16             Sorry, this is page 9 and 10.  Nine and then 10.  The last two

17     lines.

18             The question was:

19             "After that mobilisation call do you remember seeing any men in

20     Serb villages wearing military uniforms?"

21             Can we have page 10.

22             And you see that up to line 5 you said - you can read

23     English - that you didn't see such things in Muslim villages.

24             Were all able-bodied men in all villages, Serbian, Muslim, and

25     Croat, according to the law in force at the time reservists of the JNA?

Page 16655

 1        A.   Yes.  According to the law.

 2        Q.   Right.  But you allege that the people from the Muslim villages

 3     did not respond to the call-up, they had no uniforms or weapons?

 4        A.   I don't know if the people from Muslim or Croat villages

 5     responded to the call-up, but I personally did not see people in Croat or

 6     Muslim villages dressed in uniforms or carrying weapons.  I am 100 per

 7     cent sure of that.

 8        Q.   Can we now again have 1D3888.  You say at the time Bosniaks and

 9     Croats left active duty service in the JNA.  The gaps were, as a rule,

10     filled by Serbs.  Is that correct?

11        A.   I believe that's correct.

12        Q.   All right.  We don't have to call up this document then?

13             MR. GAYNOR:  I would like to object again to the form of the

14     question.  In the question you said, You say that, and the witness has

15     already given evidence that that earlier document, 1D3888, is not his

16     letter but simply something created by a journalist which contains parts

17     of what Mr. Gasi said.  So I object to the form of the question made by

18     the accused there.

19             JUDGE KWON:  I think we can understand and we can proceed,

20     Mr. Gaynor.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I'm not going to insist on

22     this unless the witness confirms that parts of this is true.  This is

23     actually his knowledge about the situation.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Can we now have a look at 1D3876.

Page 16656

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Are you tendering that letter?

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  For identification pending

 3     translation, and as I said, we already sent it to the CLSS.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  We'll mark it for identification.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D1563, Your Honours.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Do you agree that this is a report regarding paramilitary

 8     organisations that was compiled by the command of the 17th Corps, that is

 9     to say before the war in 1991?

10        A.   It seems that the command of the 17th Corps had written up this

11     report.  I have no reason not to believe that.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Can we have page 7 of this document.

13             Do you agree that the JNA is describing the paramilitary

14     organisation of all three parties here, and it says paramilitary

15     formations of the HDZ, and it says here that they did not form their own

16     paramilitary organisations here, but they did work on arming their

17     members.  And they were not organised into military units.  At the same

18     time, the HDZ has recruited its members into the armed forces of the

19     Republic of Croatia, and then villages are being listed here of these

20     smaller military units, in Ulice, Krepsic, Donja Skakava, Gornja Skakava,

21     Zovik, Bosanska Bijela, Gornji Vuksic, Dubrava, and so on and so forth.

22     Are all of these villages Croatian?

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could we please have a

24     clear screen.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is the majority

Page 16657

 1     population there to this day.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Could you wait until we have a clear

 3     screen.  E-court has experienced some difficulty.

 4                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 5             JUDGE KWON:  It's better to have a break.  We'll a break for ten

 6     minutes to solve these technical issues.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 9.32 a.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 9.54 a.m.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Let's continue, Mr. Karadzic.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

12        Q.   Can we have 1D3876 again, please, and then page 7.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have LiveNote again in e-court.

14     Yes.  Now it's right.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Page 7, that's what we had.  It's the army, the JNA, describing

17     the situation in Brcko.  We have already spoken about the HDZ, and let us

18     see what it says about the SDA paramilitary formations, the village of

19     Brezevo Polje, a detachment of Muslim believers, diagram number 2 that we

20     are going to look at, then the weapons, what they had.  Do you see that

21     part, number 1?

22             And then number 2, paragraph 2, says that they have reliable

23     information to the effect that the SDA had armed most of their extremist

24     members already in the month of October with about 300 pistols and then

25     rifles.  And then paragraph 3 says:

Page 16658

 1             "As this question was centralised the leadership of the SDA of

 2     Brcko is planning to send an SDA brigade at battalion level consisting of

 3     the Muslim population living in the territories of the municipalities of

 4     Brcko, Gradacac ...," et cetera.

 5             And then it also says further on, under C, that a Chetnik

 6     detachment of undetermined strength and with an undetermined amount of

 7     weapons was formed, following orders of SDS leaders from Brcko and at

 8     Seselj's suggestions.  Most members of this detachment are volunteers in

 9     a JNA unit stationed in the area so that they could undergo training,

10     procure weapons, and ideologically influence the active duty command

11     officers.  Obviously, ideologically, they were different from the command

12     of the JNA, right?  So the general is suspicious and believes that they

13     will influence his officers.  Did you know that things were developing

14     this way, that weapons were being distributed publicly in mosques and in

15     party offices and so on?

16        A.   Mr. Karadzic, I don't know anything about this.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Can we look at page 22.  You were off until the 27th

18     of May; right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Can we have page 22 in this document.  Can we enlarge this?

21             Did you know Meho Muratovic, Osman Kavazovic, Sako Hadzajlic,

22     Ako Hadzajlic, Dzemila Hadzajlic, Nijaz Dzidza?  You see these names

23     here.  Did you know these men?

24        A.   No, I did not.

25        Q.   Did you know or do you see now that this was a brigade of Muslim

Page 16659

 1     believers in Brezevo Polje and that later on it was the basis for a four

 2     battalion brigade that already became operational in May in Brcko?

 3        A.   I see this paper.  I see this diagram.  Whether this actually

 4     existed, I don't know.

 5        Q.   In your statement you said that true fighting had started.  Who

 6     was engaged in this fighting?  In town itself you said that there was

 7     true fighting.

 8        A.   True fighting?  I did not say true fighting.  I did see

 9     artillery, though.  That belonged to the JNA at the time, and it was

10     firing perhaps every 10 or 15 minutes.

11        Q.   We'll get to that part of your statement.  Did you know

12     Farid Mujkanovic?

13        A.   No, I don't know who that is.

14        Q.   Did you know that in Brcko there was also a staff and a

15     detachment of the Patriotic League?

16        A.   I'm not aware of that.

17        Q.   Did you know Ibrahim Ramic?

18        A.   Yes, I do know Ibrahim Ramic.

19        Q.   What was his function?

20        A.   He was president of the SDA of the city board.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Mustafa Ramic?

22        A.   He's the brother of Dr. Ibro Ramic, and he was the elected

23     president of the Municipal Assembly of Brcko.

24        Q.   I see.  Thank you.  Do you know that in all 103 municipalities

25     except for the Croat municipalities there was a Municipal Staff of the

Page 16660

 1     Patriotic League and a brigade?

 2        A.   I really don't know about that, Mr. Karadzic.

 3        Q.   Did you know Rasid Guso?

 4        A.   No, I didn't know him personally.

 5        Q.   Have you heard of him?

 6        A.   Not during the war while I was in Brcko.  Later on I read

 7     something about him in the newspapers.

 8        Q.   Well, you were born in that town and you were a well-known man in

 9     that town whom.  How come you didn't know?  Did you know Miralem Jukic,

10     nicknamed Skorpija?

11        A.   No, Mr. Karadzic.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Then we're going to abandon this line of questioning.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted?

14             JUDGE KWON:  No, Mr. Karadzic.  All this witness testified about

15     this document is that he would not doubt the authenticity of this

16     document, but he didn't know anything about this document.  There's no

17     basis.  And this is an example how you are wasting your time.  You could

18     have put your case to the witness, and you just could proceed.  You read

19     out all the documents that could not be admitted, and that's -- yes.

20     Let's proceed.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Excellency.  These were

22     names from another document that I haven't even tendered, a different

23     document.  But I just wanted to check what the witness knew out of all of

24     that.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 16661

 1        Q.   65 ter 6961.  Can we have that now, please.  Can we see paragraph

 2     3 down there that has to do with Bijeljina and Brcko.

 3             You mentioned that you knew what was going on in Bijeljina.  Have

 4     a look at paragraph 4.  This is the JNA again, the 17th Corps, on the 2nd

 5     of April, and in the first part of paragraph 4, it says that the

 6     situation did calm down in Brcko -- no, Bijeljina, and it says that the

 7     party leaders are not in control and cannot ensure that fighting stops.

 8     And then there's a reference to Brcko, the blockade of roads, access to

 9     the hospital in Bijeljina, and so on and so forth.

10             And can we now have the next page.  Do you see this?

11        A.   Yes, I do.

12        Q.   Is this something that you knew yourself, that this chaos had

13     reigned?

14        A.   In Bijeljina?

15        Q.   Well, yes, in Bijeljina.  How far away is Bijeljina from you?

16        A.   About 50 kilometres.

17        Q.   So it's the neighbouring town, isn't it?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Can we have the second page -- ah yes, here it is.  Brcko, now,

20     you see here it says what the situation is like in Brcko.  It says from

21     the morning hours of the 1st of April in front of JNA premises the

22     representatives of parties are moving, calling for a move towards

23     Bijeljina, but others are appealing for peace and order.  Did you know

24     that?

25        A.    I did not know that and I cannot see on my screen what you seem

Page 16662

 1     to have read out just now.

 2        Q.   It's the second part of paragraph 7, Putnikovo Brdo, so on and so

 3     forth and it says, "In Brcko from the morning hours ...."

 4             Do you see that, the 1st of April?  See where this cursor is now?

 5        A.   I see.  Mr. Karadzic, I really don't know anything about this.  I

 6     can not talk about that.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  1D3888.  Can we have a brief look at that.

 8             Did you know that many Muslims had set out towards Bijeljina from

 9     various towns and villages, that they wanted to walk on Bijeljina in

10     military fashion?

11        A.   No, I don't know anything about that.

12        Q.   Please look at page 2 of this document.  Take a look at this, the

13     second circled paragraph.

14             "At that time, many Bosniaks from Gradacac, Orasje, Srebrenik and

15     surrounding villages came to Brcko to see whether our people in Bijeljina

16     could be assisted.  The majority was in favour of moving on Bijeljina,

17     but they were stopped by the leadership from Brcko, the brothers Ibro and

18     Mustafa Ramic."

19             So you say in your interview the same thing that the JNA is

20     saying?

21        A.   I've already told you, Mr. Karadzic, that that interview that I

22     gave to that journalist who wrote this, that has nothing to do with what

23     I had said to him.  I don't know anything about this, nothing whatsoever,

24     and I repeat once again, if I knew anything, I'd tell you.

25        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  Nevertheless, you put your address and

Page 16663

 1     your signature below this interview.

 2        A.   Well, yes, it is my signature and my address.  And how it reached

 3     "Ljiljan," I really don't know.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  What about the previous document?  Are you going to

 5     admit that, the JNA report of the 2nd of April, 6961?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  No.  We don't have any basis to admit it.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   1D3881, please.  Before the 27th of May, you were able to listen

 9     to the radio, watch television, and move freely about the town; right?

10        A.   Yes, that's true.

11        Q.   Could you please pay attention to this report by the Radio Bosnia

12     and Herzegovina.  They broadcast something that they allegedly received

13     from ham radio operators in Brcko.  There is a reference to the artillery

14     opening fire on Brodusa and Dizdarusa, and it says here:

15             "At around 1800 hours, soldiers from the 108 Brcko Brigade

16     started an operation in the area of Bila Gorge.  This operation by the

17     special units was successful and they broke through deep into occupied

18     territory destroying in the process one tank, one personnel carrier ...,"

19     and so on and so forth.

20             Can you see the date?  It was on the 15th of May.

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Are you aware of the fighting that took place at the time?

23        A.   As far as I know, there was no fighting going on at the time.  On

24     the 11th or the 12th of May, I was with Elektrodistribucija, very close

25     to that Kalanac [phoen] gorge.  If there had been fighting going on we

Page 16664

 1     wouldn't have been able to go there.

 2        Q.   But this is a report dated 19th of May, and Ministry of Defence

 3     of the BiH Army stamped that, and this was broadcast on the radio.

 4        A.   I don't know.  I can only tell you what I experienced in Brcko

 5     from the 1st to the 27th of May, and that doesn't tally with what the

 6     document says.  The document is here, but I'm not able to comment upon it

 7     because the truth of what I saw with my own eyes was different.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What is the attitude of the Chamber

 9     towards this document?  It contradicts the fact that a Crisis Staff

10     existed and that a brigade existed, so what is the attitude of the

11     Trial Chamber towards this document?

12             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Gaynor?

13             MR. GAYNOR:  Your Honours, if Your Honours consider this to be of

14     assistance towards the witness's credibility, it would be admissible on

15     that basis.  I'd just like to note also that the ABiH stamp on this

16     document bears the date 19th of May, 1992, but I don't think, I'm sure

17     Mr. Karadzic will agree, that the document itself, it's not clear what

18     date it's from.  Thank you.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll admit this document as indicated by

21     Mr. Gaynor for the purpose of the assessment of the credibility of this

22     witness.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1564, Your Honours.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  1D3877 is the next

25     document I would like to call up.

Page 16665

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Look at this.  This is a statement by the Brcko municipality

 3     Crisis Staff, handwritten and translated, and towards the end, it says,

 4     "Soldiers of the 108th Birac Brigade are still holding the line ...," and

 5     so on and so forth.

 6             There is a description of what is going on.  The forces are

 7     pulling back towards Bijeljina, and the reporters have observed long

 8     columns of refugees and troops in the town.

 9             Do you see this statement by the Brcko municipality Crisis Staff

10     press centre?  This certainly is not a Serbian Crisis Staff, because it

11     uses derogatory words for Serbs, calling them Chetniks and so on and so

12     forth; right?

13        A.   Mr. Karadzic, the document that you showed me before this one is

14     where it says in the heading Vares, and this document here in the heading

15     has the words the Public Company Usora Jela.  So far as I know this is

16     not in Brcko.  This must have arrived from Doboj.

17        Q.   Mr. Gasi, but this is just a block stamp that companies

18     distribute by way of advertising.  You can have that anywhere.

19        A.   I don't know.  I did not see those writing pads in Brcko.  This

20     is from Doboj.  I don't know who wrote this, where this was written.  I

21     can't comment upon this.

22        Q.   Can we now look at the last page?  Do you see that this was

23     received and stamped by the Ministry of Defence and the BiH Army on the

24     14th of June, 1992, which means that the Crisis Staff of Brcko

25     municipality, not the Serbian Crisis Staff issued its statement; right?

Page 16666

 1        A.   Yes, it is right.  You say that this is a stamp and it is a stamp

 2     by the Ministry of Defence and the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  However,

 3     the paper on which it was written seems to have arrived from Doboj.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Can this be admitted?

 5             MR. GAYNOR:  You were, I would like to object to the authenticity

 6     of this document.  We're willing to agree that the stamp of the ABiH

 7     appears to be authentic.  The rest of the document does not appear to

 8     bear the usual indicia of reliability and authenticity which are normally

 9     present on documents tendered for admission.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may be allowed it respond.

11     This is a Prosecutor's document with an ERN number.  Obviously they

12     received it either from the Muslim side or from the Ministry of Defence.

13     This statement was probably read out, but before it was read out it was

14     handwritten.  It was recorded in writing.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE KWON:  Based upon the fact that it was received by the ABiH

17     army, we have a basis to admit this.  We'll admit this.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1565, Your Honours.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Did you know, Mr. Gasi, that people from Brcko, both Muslims and

22     Croats, especially Croats, were leaving and going to Croatia to join the

23     national guards in Croatia, the armed forces of Croatia?

24        A.   I didn't know such people.

25        Q.   Did you know that people often crossed the river from Croatia to

Page 16667

 1     Brcko, transporting weapons from Croatia?

 2        A.   I'm sure that I would have seen that, Mr. Karadzic, because I

 3     spent a lot of time on the Sava River, and while I was there I didn't see

 4     any such thing.

 5        Q.   Did you spend nights on the river?

 6        A.   No, I didn't spend nights on the Sava River.

 7        Q.   Do you agree that those transports of weapons would probably have

 8     taken place by night rather than by day?

 9        A.   I don't know.

10        Q.   How far is Orasje from Brcko?

11        A.   Thirty-five kilometres.

12        Q.   Do you know anything about the blowing up of the bridge in Orasje

13     by the Croatian forces?  And that happened before the blowing up of the

14     bridge that you described in your statement, the bridge in Brcko.

15        A.   Yes, I heard that the bridge in Orasje had been blown up.

16        Q.   We have to wait for the interpretation.  You should know why I am

17     making pauses.

18             When was the bridge in Orasje blown up?

19        A.   I don't know the exact date, but I think that it was in early

20     April 1992.  Perhaps a month before the Brcko bridge was blown up.

21        Q.   Do you know that that bridge was blown up by Croats?

22        A.   I don't know that, Mr. Karadzic.

23        Q.   And under whose control was Orasje throughout the war and before

24     the war?

25        A.   Before the war?  I don't know under whose control it was.  I

Page 16668

 1     really don't know.

 2        Q.   During the war?

 3        A.   I don't know that either, because I did not participate in the

 4     war.

 5        Q.    You don't know that Brcko -- or, rather, Orasje was always under

 6     HVO control and of the Croatian forces and the vast majority of the

 7     population is Croatian?

 8        A.   It's not a vast majority.  There's a vast Muslim majority in

 9     Orasje -- rather, was before the war.  It wasn't really Croats.

10        Q.   All right.  We'll have a look at the census, and it's going to be

11     easy to see that.

12             Do you know that on the other side of the Sava River there was an

13     improvised bridge before the war broke out in Brcko, in Brcko itself?

14     There was an improvised bridge across the Sava River.

15        A.   I don't know.  There were two bridges.  Both were damaged, but

16     for someone to have made a third bridge, that I don't know.

17        Q.   Do you know that people could cross the Sava on foot at that

18     time?

19        A.   Yes, yes, across the old bridge.  People went on foot from

20     Croatia to Brcko.

21        Q.   And the other way round; right?

22        A.   Yes.  That's right.

23        Q.   Do you know that weapons from Croatia were transported from

24     Croatia to Brcko across that bridge as well?

25        A.   That I don't know.

Page 16669

 1        Q.   And do you know that apartments of prominent Serbs in Brcko

 2     before the conflict broke out were specially marked?

 3        A.   That I really don't know.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  You mentioned that when the conflict broke out people

 5     were fleeing, and you mentioned the Serb part of town and the Muslim part

 6     of town.  Since when has this Serb part of town existed?

 7        A.   First of all, I don't understand what you're saying.  Fleeing.

 8     What do you mean fleeing?  From where?  Who was fleeing?

 9        Q.   You said that people were seeking shelter, Serbs in the Serb part

10     of town, Muslims in the Muslim part of town.

11        A.   Where did you find that?  I didn't say that.  I don't know.

12        Q.   Was the population fleeing from Brcko and within Brcko itself?

13        A.   Well, let me tell you.  On the 1st and 2nd and 3rd of May, I was

14     moving from my apartment that is close to the garrison of Brcko to Meraje

15     that is, say, half a kilometre away from where I live and that is where

16     my wife's parents live.  I did not notice anyone fleeing from town at the

17     time.  That is what I saw.  I crossed the river and I went back too.

18        Q.   All right.  Let us just establish this.  You mentioned that there

19     is a Serb part of town in Brcko.  Since when?

20        A.   Since -- for as long as I can remember, and I was born in 1957 in

21     Brcko.

22        Q.   It dates back to the Turkish times; right?

23        A.   I think so.

24             MR. GAYNOR:  Can I ask for a transcript reference for any further

25     references to Mr. Gasi's prior evidence, please.

Page 16670

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Before that, Mr. Karadzic, I'm regularly struggling

 2     to understand the relevance of your line of questioning.  You have spent

 3     almost one and a half hours with this witness, who testified his

 4     experience he underwent in the Luka camp, but you didn't ask a single

 5     question about it.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, I think that we

 7     spent more time waiting than what I spent, but I think we should take

 8     advantage of the opportunity of having a witness who is a sportsman, a

 9     popular person in town, a member of the SDA, the top echelons of the SDA

10     at that, and he can shed more light on these developments that led to the

11     creation of Luka and also, by the way, the question of credibility is

12     important, too, but I am going to cut things short.  If that is your

13     view, I'm going to cut things short.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   All right, Mr. Gasi, we are going to move on to Brcko, and after

16     the break I'm going to find a reference in terms of the Serb part of town

17     and the Muslim part of town.  You did say there was a Muslim part of town

18     too.

19        A.   Mr. Karadzic, the Serb part of town, I know that very well, and

20     in that Serb part of town there were quite a few Muslims who had their

21     houses and apartments there.

22             Now, why it was called Srpska Varos, the name probably dates back

23     to the old times.

24        Q.   Thank you.  But there were Muslim parts of town, predominantly

25     Muslim parts of town; right?

Page 16671

 1        A.   Right.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, I'm asking that

 3     because there was a debate in terms of transforming Brcko into three

 4     municipalities.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Were you aware of that debate aimed at transforming Brcko into

 7     three municipalities so that every municipality would have its own part

 8     of the inner city and also the surrounding villages?

 9        A.   Yes, yes.  This division into three parts, yes, I know about that

10     I heard that at the session of the Municipal Assembly of Brcko.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Let us now briefly go back to the question of the

12     destruction of bridges.  You said that Rade Bozic informed you that he

13     destroyed the bridge; right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Would you say that the Croatian side destroyed the bridge in

16     Orasje so that the JNA would not cross over from Bosnia to Croatia and

17     that the JNA destroyed the bridge in Brcko so the Croatian Army would not

18     enter Brcko?

19        A.   First of all, I don't know who destroyed the bridge in Orasje.

20     Secondly, I have already told you, and I said many times before this

21     Court that Rade Bozic said to me himself personally that he commanded the

22     operation of destroying the bridges in Brcko.

23        Q.   And that he made a mistake and that he was sorry; right?

24        A.   Yes.  That is right.  That is what he said.  That is literally

25     what he said.

Page 16672

 1        Q.   Was Rade Bozic a member of the green -- no, Red Berets, some

 2     paramilitary group in Brcko?

 3        A.   At the time, Mr. Rade Bozic was saying that he was a captain of

 4     the military police.  He did have a red beret.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  We'll go back to that when we have enough time.  Let

 6     us now take a look at developments in Brcko itself.  You say that as soon

 7     as the tensions went up in Brcko, you decided to get your family out of

 8     Brcko and to take them to Belgrade; right?

 9        A.   I had given such a great deal of thought to tensions in April,

10     Mr. Karadzic, that thanks to a Serb, a good neighbour of mine, I managed

11     to take my wife and daughter with his assistance to Bijeljina on the 30th

12     of April in the afternoon by car.  I had no idea of these tensions in

13     town.  Had I known, I assure you perhaps I wouldn't be sitting here in

14     this courtroom today.

15        Q.   Tensions in which town?

16        A.   Brcko.

17        Q.   Why then did you take your wife and daughter out of Brcko?

18        A.   Because the wife of that neighbour came to me and said,

19     "Jasminka, it is time for you and your husband and your child to leave

20     Brcko because the war has started."  Since I had no connections and no

21     possibility to go either left or right, I went towards Serbia, towards --

22     to go to Serbia, Belgrade.  I went to Serbia.  Jovica Bogicevic took me.

23        Q.   And after Bijeljina you took them to Belgrade; right?

24        A.   In Bijeljina, I came across this sportsman who is a good friend

25     of mine.  He was a member of Yugoslavia's national team, the national

Page 16673

 1     team of the former Yugoslavia, and he took Jasminka and Adna [phoen] to

 2     Serbia and I went back to Brcko together with Jovica.

 3        Q.   You did not cross over into Serbia then.  You came only in June.

 4        A.   When Mr. Rade Bozic took me out, yes.

 5        Q.   You do know that by then the war was well underway throughout

 6     Bosnia for three weeks, from Sarajevo and further on?

 7        A.   I heard about it.  I saw it on TV.  Now, whether it was a raging

 8     war as you had put it, I cannot say, but there was a war going on.

 9        Q.   However, peace had been preserved in Brcko; right?

10        A.   In that belief I returned.  I believed that there would be no

11     problems, yes.

12        Q.   At that time you moved about freely in town while the civilian

13     authorities kept the situation under control in the customary way; right?

14        A.   Yes.  April, and until the bridges on the Sava River were

15     destroyed; that's right.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, I note the time.  It's time to take a

17     break if it is convenient.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Excellency.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE KWON:  We will resume at 11.00.

20             MR. HARVEY:  Your Honour, Your Honour, I should at the outset

21     introduced a member of my team who is with us today.  Rens van der Werf

22     has been a legal assistant on our team for the last six months and he's

23     here for the balance today.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Welcome, Mr. van der Werf.

25             Eleven o'clock.

Page 16674

 1                           --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.

 2                           --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.  Please continue.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Do you remember that as part of the efforts to preserve peace in

 7     Brcko you had joint patrols -- or, rather, mixed patrols of a mixed

 8     ethnic composition; right?

 9        A.   Yes.  I heard that, and I also saw those patrols that existed

10     both in town and outside of town.  There were, indeed, mixed patrols

11     composed of civilian police and the military police from the barracks.

12     That's what the city council of Brcko had agreed with the command of the

13     garrison in Brcko.

14        Q.   You repeated that in the Stanisic case.  This is 1D3894, page 18.

15     Can we just have a -- take a brief look, and that contributed to the

16     preservation of peace?

17             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter is not sure the number is

18     correct.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was peaceful even before those

20     patrols were set up.  Those patrols were introduced because the municipal

21     leadership had negotiated with the military command, and they asked for

22     members of the JNA to be involved in those patrols.

23        Q.   Your answer here starts before the war, and then you continue

24     talking about that.

25        A.   Yes.

Page 16675

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, I would like to

 2     tender all those pages I'm going to call up.  I don't know if they will

 3     be admitted under one number or several numbers, and if I don't call up

 4     the pages I don't wish to tender them, but I would like to tender this

 5     particular page that is on the screen now.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   The chief of the police station was a Croat, a member of the HDZ,

 8     Stjepan Filipovic, and the commander of that public station was as a

 9     Muslim, Zlatko Jasarevic; right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Veselic joined only after the break-up of power as part of the

12     judiciary; right?

13        A.   I don't know what happened in the police station at that time.  I

14     don't know when Veselic joined the police station as its chief.  I

15     believe that it was on the 2nd or 3rd of May, 1992.

16        Q.   However, while the joint police existed, the -- the chief was a

17     Croat from the HDZ, and the commander was a Muslim from the SDA; right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And then in April the joint authorities still functioned, and

20     Council for National Defence of Brcko organised a meeting and invited

21     appealed for a unit of a mixed composition to be set up; right?

22        A.   Yes, I heard of that.  You're right.

23        Q.   And you say in your interview that you could apply and that the

24     only condition was the person didn't have a criminal record.  You say

25     that you volunteered to join that unit and that there was a meeting

Page 16676

 1     between the volunteers and the representatives of the municipal

 2     authorities who were behind that idea; right?

 3        A.   Yes, you're right.

 4        Q.   Can we look at 1D3888.  I have already tendered the page on the

 5     screen.  Can this be admitted, and maybe we can preserve the same number,

 6     because everything has been already admitted in the Stanisic case?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  We'll see how many pages are going to be tendered

 8     and see whether it's wiser to admit it in its entirety.  We'll see it

 9     later.  So this page will be admitted.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1566, Your Honours.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Can we now look at 1D3888 in e-court, and the translation will

13     probably be on the ELMO.  We have it there already.  Page 3, please.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Page 3.

15             THE ACCUSED:  Page 4 in the English, please.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   You say here that among the attendees were representatives of all

18     the three parts of the authorities, Ristanic, Milutinovic, and so on and

19     so forth, and you say that people volunteered en masse and the only

20     condition was that they didn't have criminal records, and then there was

21     a meeting in the culture hall between us volunteers and the municipal

22     representatives.  And then you say:

23             "We were surprised to see that the meeting was also attended by

24     Pavle Milinkovic and Milorad Segovac [phoen], representatives of the JNA

25     garrison."

Page 16677

 1             And you say:

 2             "When we learned whose insignia we were supposed to wear on the

 3     uniforms and who we were supposed to be subordinated to, there was

 4     commotion and people started leaving the meeting.  Mustafa Ramic, a

 5     Muslim, and Mustafa Kehunjic [phoen], the secretary of the Secretariat

 6     for National Defence of Brcko Municipality, attempted to hold you back

 7     and they did everything they could prevent us from leaving the meeting.

 8     They tried to rally us once again but this time by issuing call-ups for

 9     the reserve, but this attempt failed as well."

10             JUDGE KWON:  Slow down.  Slow down, please.  What is your

11     question?

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   My question is this:  We're talking about a mixed

14     Municipal Council, and they tried to set up a mixed unit of volunteers,

15     and that that attempt would have succeeded if the garrison had not been

16     invited into that unit?

17        A.   Yes.  The idea existed, but I wouldn't agree with you when you

18     say that in this letter it says that when Pavle Milinkovic appeared and

19     he was the commander of the garrison, and the other officers, that we

20     dispersed because of that.  I personally knew that they would be the ones

21     who would supply us with weapons, who would arm that unit, and I was in

22     favour of that.  If things had been different, I guarantee you that I

23     would not have accepted weapons from anybody else.

24        Q.   So you're saying that the journalist actually tried to pass on

25     his own ideas into your own text.

Page 16678

 1        A.   Mr. Karadzic, this is not my text.  I repeat once again.  This

 2     letter or the report, whatever you call it, I can comment each and every

 3     part of it.  The ideas that are presented here, the ones that you

 4     circled, I would not subscribe to any of them.

 5        Q.   However, the idea of a mixed volunteer unit to preserve peace did

 6     fall through; right?

 7        A.   Yes, it did fall through.

 8        Q.   Do you know why it fell through?

 9        A.   I don't know.

10        Q.   Was the name of the journalist who compiled this report?

11        A.   Said Muminovic.  We grew up together in Brcko.

12        Q.   Thank you.  I'm not going to ask you to speculate.  However, let

13     me ask you do you think that peace would have been preserved and

14     prolonged if the idea of the unit had taken off the ground?

15        A.   I think so, because I was one of the proponents of that idea.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Then the bridge was destroyed and there was an

17     all-out conflict which lasted while you were there; right?

18        A.   I believe that a true conflict broke out on the 3rd or the 4th of

19     May.  I don't know who the parties to that conflict were because I didn't

20     know who was on the other side.  I didn't see who opened fire on the JNA

21     in Brcko.

22        Q.   Thank you.  And your statement from 2008, according to 92 ter,

23     paragraph 13, says that the war broke out in Brcko on the 3rd of May,

24     1992.  It was a real conflict that lasted throughout the whole period

25     that I spent there, and it takes two to have a conflict.  Do you agree?

Page 16679

 1        A.   Yes, I do.

 2        Q.   In that same paragraph, you say that an aircraft flew over and

 3     that a tremendous explosion was heard.  However, that you had never seen

 4     where the alleged missile fell.  You didn't see any ruins, et cetera.  Is

 5     that correct?

 6        A.   No.  There were two aircraft, not one.

 7        Q.   An explosion was heard, but you didn't see the location where it

 8     happened; right?

 9        A.   Once I went in the direction of Mujkici.  I saw damaged roofs of

10     buildings and family houses in that particular area.  I'm not sure

11     whether that was caused by these aircraft, and I cannot tell you that

12     with any degree of certainty.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that when there is -- a sound barrier is

14     broken that that can also produce a tremendous effect?

15        A.   Yes, I know that very well, but what I heard were probably bombs

16     dropped by the aircraft.

17        Q.   But you're not sure?

18        A.   I am sure that they did fire those missiles at certain

19     facilities.

20        Q.   In hindsight, do you now understand the existence of the

21     108th Brigade, the HVO, and the Birac Motorised Brigade given the

22     conflict broke out on the 3rd of May and lasted throughout the whole time

23     that you were there?

24        A.   Mr. Karadzic, I don't understand your question.  Am I supposed to

25     agree with you on the existence of something that I personally did not

Page 16680

 1     see?

 2        Q.   Well, we are trying to help the Chamber to realise who was

 3     involved in the conflict.  You yourself confirmed that the real conflict

 4     started there and lasted the whole time.  Who was involved in the

 5     conflict?

 6        A.   I saw heavy weaponry belonging to the JNA, that it was firing.

 7     However, who was their target and where these guns were pointing at, I

 8     don't know.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  You said that towards the end of April there were

10     groups of troops there wearing a variety of uniforms; is that correct?

11        A.   Yes.  I saw at the Brcko garrison people dressed in camouflage

12     uniforms and wearing red berets on their heads.  As far as I know, such

13     people did not exist before in the Yugoslav People's Army.  Those were

14     the people I saw, including the reservists, of course.

15        Q.   Thank you.  You say that the president of the municipality, the

16     Croat, largely trusted the JNA and was advocating the idea for the JNA to

17     try and preserve peace in Brcko.

18        A.   Yes, that's correct.  He appeared on TV and gave statements to

19     this effect.  I, myself, also believed in the JNA.

20        Q.   Then you say that when the conflict broke out total chaos ensued

21     and that the situation was confusing; is that correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Do you agree that the first victim was a Serb whose last name was

24     Medic who was killed from a mosque near the centre of the town?

25        A.   This is the first time that I hear that from you.

Page 16681

 1        Q.   Very well.  65 ter 22527A, page 150.  In the Krajisnik case you

 2     said that you did not see any damage caused by the bomb, the aerial bomb;

 3     correct?

 4        A.   The aerial bomb, yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Then you went on to say that during and after the

 6     fighting in Brcko, the army itself did not commit crimes but that,

 7     rather, paramilitary formations were involved in the commission of

 8     crimes, and you accused them of the most serious crimes; is that correct?

 9        A.   Yes.  Yes, it is.

10        Q.   Then you said that during this chaotic situation, paramilitary

11     formations managed to impose their rules in town and to occupy main

12     check-points in the town close to the Tesla factory, Grcica factory, et

13     cetera; is that correct?

14        A.   Those were the ones that I saw in town, but also the ones that

15     you mentioned, all of these points were manned by people who emerged from

16     the JNA barracks in Brcko.  They were members of their special units.

17        Q.   Can we now look at 22527A, page 90 from the Krajisnik case,

18     please.  Page 90, you say -- just a moment.  You say from the 12th of May

19     on:

20             [In English] "When I was moving around, I had several

21     opportunities to leave the Elektrodistribucija and go to the town in

22     order to do repairs.  In the town, itself, there were several

23     check-points, mixed check-points manned by the people in camouflage

24     uniform for whom I suppose that they belonged to the JNA, and sometimes

25     there would also be one or two police officers wearing regular police

Page 16682

 1     uniform.  It all depended on check-points."

 2             [Interpretation] And you said that Red Berets were there as well

 3     in camouflage uniforms and that some of them were local Serbs from Brcko.

 4             [In English] "And some of the local Serbs from Brcko, my

 5     neighbours, were stopping vehicles and asking for the people's IDs."

 6             [Interpretation] Is that right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  We don't need to tender this into evidence because I

 9     have read this page for the record.

10             You were arrested on the 27th of May and taken to the police

11     station.

12        A.   Yes.

13             JUDGE KWON:  This is already in the evidence.  This is his 92 ter

14     statement.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.  Thank you.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   In the police station, you were put in a dark room alongside two

18     other persons; correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Those people were already there.

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Nobody maltreated you at the statement; is that correct?

23        A.   Yes, it is.

24        Q.   One of these two persons was Slavko Bozic.  Was he a relative of

25     Rade Bozic who later on released you?

Page 16683

 1        A.   No, he wasn't.

 2        Q.   Why was this Slavko Bozic arrested?

 3        A.   Slavko was a petty criminal before the war.  While I was in this

 4     room, I chatted with him, and he did not discuss the reason for his being

 5     there.

 6        Q.   So Nedzad Dizdarevic and Slavko Bozic were there and you came

 7     there as a third person; right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Then you stated that a man called Jovan Pudic had

10     committed a lot of bad things in Brcko such as the killing of civilians.

11     That was registered by a Reuters correspondent of Serb origin and he sent

12     out photographs all over the world?

13        A.   That's not correct.

14        Q.   Can we then look at your statement given on the 7th of May, 1993

15     that's 65 ter 19924, and we need page 3.  Page 3 in both English and

16     Serbian.

17             I believe that we need paragraph 9 in Serbian.

18             [In English] "A Serb Reuters correspondent took photos of

19     killings and was later on rewarded for those -- these photos by the World

20     Press Photo jury in Amsterdam."

21             [Interpretation] At the end, he said:  [In English] "The

22     policeman shooting men in the photo is Pudic, Jovan."

23             Is this true or not?

24        A.   Mr. Karadzic, this is a report draft by the Helsinki committee in

25     Denmark.  They also showed me the photograph took by Bojan Stojanovic in

Page 16684

 1     May of 1992 in Brcko.  They asked me if I knew the man who was shooting

 2     this other person in the back, and I said that I didn't.

 3             In July of 1992, in Belgrade, Mr. Bojan Stojanovic and Rade Bozic

 4     brought me a couple of photographs that he also took in May 1992 showing

 5     Mr. Pudic, but he was not the one who killed people personally.

 6        Q.   So this is not correct that this is Pudic.

 7        A.   No, it's not correct.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  However, you said that in addition to the killing

 9     that we now realise didn't happen, you said that Pudic and his colleagues

10     used to beat you; is that correct?

11        A.   Pudic hit me with a handgun on the back of my neck or on the head

12     when he pushed me into the office.  Later on when I was in the hangar,

13     whether it was a colleague of his or not, this one beat me up properly,

14     and I described that in my testimony.

15        Q.   Thank you.  However, in the case against President Milosevic, you

16     described the situation slightly different.

17             Can we now look at 1D3895.  On page 25 of this document you say,

18     starting from line 10:

19             [In English] "Pudic met me and he was a policemen before the war,

20     and I think he's still a policeman actually.  So he was there and he

21     wanted to take a pistol to hit me on the head with it, but he changed his

22     mind and took me into an office.  Now, why they took me ...," and so on

23     and so on.

24             [Interpretation] Now, it seems that your description was slightly

25     different.  He wanted to hit you, but he didn't hit you.

Page 16685

 1        A.   He did hit me.

 2        Q.   Now, what your said in the Milosevic case is not true.

 3        A.   Well, I don't know how this happened, but he did hit me, and he

 4     did push me into the corridor.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have this page admitted into

 7     evidence?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1567, Your Honours.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Now, in the Krajisnik case there is also something -- in the

12     Krajisnik case there's also something slightly different, and can we now

13     see 65 ter 225278.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  27A.

15             JUDGE KWON:  That is Exhibit P3002.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Where did Pudic hit you exactly?

18        A.   Somewhere here.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Let's look at pages 131 and 132.  The bottom of the

20     page 131, lines 24, 25:

21             [In English] "That's correct that he didn't hit you?"

22             And you say:

23             "It's correct that he hit me, but in this statement I don't

24     know --"

25             And then 132, please.

Page 16686

 1             "... I don't know why it's in the statement the way it is.  Well,

 2     he did hit me on the side of the head.  He did hit me actually on the

 3     head, but more on the side to my ear.  I don't know why in the statement

 4     it says that he did not, but he did hit me on the right side of the head,

 5     that is correct."

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] So not on the neck but behind your right ear.

 8        A.   Mr. Karadzic, he did hit me with a handgun on my head.  Now, I

 9     don't know how we're going to describe this, whether it was in -- on the

10     head, on the neck, et cetera.  As we say in Bosnia, not directly on the

11     head but actually, yes.

12        Q.   In one statement you say that he took you to the office.  In

13     another statement you say that he hit you on the neck, and in the third

14     statement you say that he hit you behind the ear.  It's quite different.

15        A.   You may take it as you wish.  What I'm telling you now is how it

16     actually happened.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Now, which of the three versions shall we accept and

18     adopt?

19             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters didn't get the answer that the

20     witness gave.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Your answer was not reflected in the transcript

22     because of the overlap.  Could you repeat, Mr. Gasi.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The accused asked me, Judge, why I

24     said once that he -- that Pudic hit me on the head.  Then I said that he

25     didn't, and the third time I said that he hit me behind my right ear.

Page 16687

 1             I was hit with a handgun.  Whether it was on the right or the

 2     left side, I don't know exactly.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Well, my question was which of the three statements should we

 5     choose, and you said, "Whichever you like."

 6        A.   It's consistent with the answer that I gave you.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  1D3891.  Can we have a look at that, please.  It's a

 8     video.  It was made by my team, my Defence team, and it's Mr. Pudic.

 9                           [Video-clip played]

10             THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] I'm Jovan Pudic.  I was born in

11     1949 in Grbavica near Brcko.  At the beginning of these war events, I had

12     a job in Germany, and I came sometime around the 19th of May.

13             "During the trial in The Hague, I was watching television in my

14     own house, and I saw Gasi, who is also from Brcko, testifying against --

15     I think it was Krajisnik.  At one point in time he mentioned my name,

16     that on the 3rd of May, in front of the place station, he saw me killing

17     people of Bosniak ethnicity.  He also testified that he had been detained

18     in Luka and that on the 7th and 10th of May or between the 7th and 10th

19     of May he watched me taking people out with gunshots in the back and that

20     those people no longer returned.

21             "I -- this didn't strike me, because I was not in Brcko during

22     that period at all.  I thought it was some kind of mistake.  However I'm

23     the only Jovan Pudic.  I found it a bit funny.  However, people from the

24     Krajisnik Defence came to see me and I gave them a statement.  As I

25     showed them documentation that I was employed in Germany until the 15th

Page 16688

 1     of May and that I was in possession of documents when I had come out and

 2     all of that, I gave them the statement.  I can give this same statement

 3     to the Karadzic Defence as well."

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   So he was not a policeman.  He was working in Germany, and in the

 6     beginning of May when you ascribe these misdeeds to him he was not in

 7     Brcko at all?

 8        A.   But, Mr. Karadzic, it seems you and I do not understand each

 9     other here.  I'm not talking about Jovan Pudic.  I'm talking about

10     Branko Pudic, who was a policeman before the war.  To this day he's a

11     policeman in Brcko.

12             My apologies to this gentleman.  I don't know how his name was

13     brought up here at all.  I don't even know this man.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Can we have a look at your statement of the 7th of

15     May, 1993.  We did look at it a moment ago.

16             [In English] "The policeman shooting men on the photo is Pudic,

17     Jovan."

18             [Interpretation] That's in your statement, Pudic, Jovan.  Can we

19     have a look at it again, 65 ter 19924, and then page 3.  65 ter 19924?

20             JUDGE KWON:  Paragraph number?

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 3.  Paragraph 9.

22             I have nothing on my screen.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Probably we need to switch from Sanction to -- yes.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   This policeman is Jovan Pudic.  That's what you say here, the man

Page 16689

 1     in the photograph who was shooting people.

 2        A.   I've just given you an answer to that.  This is an interview

 3     given to the Danish Helsinki committee.  I never mentioned Jovan Pudic in

 4     this document.  If I ever mentioned Pudic, it was Branko Pudic who was a

 5     policeman in Brcko before the war and who is a policeman to this day in

 6     Brcko.  I don't know how this happened.

 7        Q.   Ah-ha.  Can we look at page 5, page 5 of this document.  It's

 8     repeated in the second paragraph on the top of the page.

 9             Dragan Zivkovic, Miso Sajevac or Cajevac, Jovan Pudic and Ranko

10     Marinkovic and so on.

11        A.   Branko Pudic, not Jovan.  Branko Pudic.

12        Q.   All right.  But it doesn't say Branko here, it says Jovan; right?

13        A.   Well, yes, you're right.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the video be admitted?

16             JUDGE KWON:  There's no need to admit it.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Then you got to Luka.  How long were you at the police station?

20        A.   Well, half an hour, 40 minutes, not more than that.

21        Q.   In various statements of yours you gave testimony describing what

22     happened in the Luka camp.  Now I would like us to establish the facts in

23     respect of that camp together with you.

24             My first question will be:  Do you remember that the Luka camp

25     was established by the command of the paramilitaries?

Page 16690

 1        A.   I would not agree with you.

 2        Q.   Can we have a look at page 4 of this statement that is in e-court

 3     now.  [No interpretation]

 4             [In English] "In the second room there were circa 200 prisoners

 5     and Arkan group was in command of the warehouse at Luka."

 6             [Interpretation] Is that right?

 7        A.   I don't know.  Where did you read that from?

 8        Q.   Page 4.  We are going to find it.  It's the fourth line from the

 9     top of the page in English.

10        A.   The man who beat me up, Mr. Karadzic, is Ivan, a member of

11     Arkan's group.

12        Q.   [In English] "And Arkan's group was in command of the warehouse

13     group."

14             [Interpretation] Is that what you said?

15        A.   Where?  Where did you read that from?

16        Q.   In English, it's the fourth line from the top of the page.

17             JUDGE KWON:  I think it may be the previous page in B/C/S.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  You're right.  Thank

19     you.  The last paragraph, number 12 on this page in Serbian.  And then it

20     moves on to page 13 -- or, rather, page 23.

21        A.   You're going back to the report again of the Helsinki committee

22     the one that they wrote up, Mr. Karadzic.  I received that report in

23     English perhaps only two months later.  As for all of this that was said

24     here, I hadn't signed any of this.  I did not sign a single sheet of

25     paper.  They didn't give me enough time to make corrections or anything.

Page 16691

 1        Q.   Thank you.  So what is written in this statement is not correct;

 2     right?

 3        A.   Yes.  I would agree with you, yes.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  However, you mentioned some other men as camp

 5     commanders.  Did you say that Vojkan Djurkovic was the commander of the

 6     camp?

 7        A.   Yes.  On one occasion Mr. Djurkovic showed up down there in Luka,

 8     and he introduced himself as commander of that camp down there at a

 9     particular point in time.

10        Q.   He brought you cigarettes and potato chips and other things?

11        A.   Yes, his men, when he made those speeches.

12        Q.   What were these speeches of his about?

13        A.   Some of the prisoners were detained in Luka from the beginning of

14     May, he was actually calling out their names and saying to them that he

15     had personally saved them from being killed, and he said that he tried to

16     protect people as much as he could.  Then he called out the names of

17     these people who knew, and he asked them to confirm that before all of us

18     in the hangar.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Can we look at your statement from 1995, 1D3889.

20     Page 10.  I believe that it's the same in English.  I have the English

21     version.

22             [In English] "I believe all prisoners ..." [Interpretation]

23     That's the second paragraph in English.  You say that everyone knew that

24     Djurkovic was the commander of the camp and that he was the one who could

25     spare your life, that he made speeches, brought people there.  And

Page 16692

 1     further down it says that when he would leave, the prisoners would get

 2     together and say how good Vojkan was; is that right?

 3        A.   Yes.  Yes, you're right.

 4        Q.   However, in your testimony in the trial of President Milosevic,

 5     1D3895, page 4, you said something different.  1D3895.

 6             Can this page from the 1995 statement be admitted?  Page 10.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Yes.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1568, Your Honours.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Page 4 of this transcript, please.  This is probably the

11     compensatory page, so the next one, please.  Thirteen.  Take a look at

12     that.  Thirteen.  It is probably --

13             JUDGE KWON:  This is not part of his witness -- I think this is

14     summary read out by the member of the Prosecution.  But --

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That the witness confirmed.

16             JUDGE KWON:  No.  The witness wasn't asked.  As in this case,

17     when reading out the summary, Prosecution does not ask whether he or she

18     agrees with the summary read out, but proceed.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   All right.  Did you say that Kosta Simonovic was camp commander?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Did I understand you right that Kosta Simonovic kicked Jelisic

23     out of the hangar?  Am I right or wrong?

24        A.   He did not kick him out.  He just took him out, took him by the

25     hand and took him out.  That's what I said yesterday.

Page 16693

 1        Q.   I see you mentioned some kicking.  Why did he not kick him?  Why

 2     did he take him by the hand?

 3        A.   Goran was kicking as he was being led out of the hangar.  The

 4     Prosecutor asked me to describe what kind of relationship existed between

 5     the two of them, what my impression was.  It was like two good friends

 6     where one is leading the other out of a tavern.

 7        Q.   All right.  This Kosta, why did he not kick him out?

 8        A.   Mr. Karadzic, I really cannot give you an answer to that.  I

 9     don't know.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Could he have done that to Jelic?  Who was more

11     dangerous out of the two?

12        A.   I believe that Jelisic was a more dangerous man.

13        Q.   Did I understand you correctly that he took him under the arm in

14     order to calm him down and then take him out of the hangar with as few

15     problems as possible?

16        A.   I would agree with you on that.

17        Q.   Thank you.  In this statement of 1993, we don't really need to

18     call it up, the Helsinki committee interprets you as having said that the

19     head of the camp was Goran Jelisic, 26 years old.  Was he some kind of

20     head of the camp too?

21        A.   Yes, you're right.  The prisoners were saying that, too, that he

22     was one of the main persons there.

23        Q.   So now we have three different persons who are being denoted as

24     commanders of the Luka camp.  What do we take as true then?

25        A.   Mr. Karadzic, on the 27th of May, 1992, the only one who played

Page 16694

 1     the role in my view, was Konstantin Simonovic, Kole, because he was the

 2     one who had the list of all 200 prisoners at the time, and at 7.00 in the

 3     evening, every night, Kole would enter the hangar and pull out the names

 4     and surnames of all the prisoners.  If you were a prisoner, you were

 5     supposed to say that you were present.  That's what happened every night

 6     in Luka while I was there.

 7             Now, who had more power in terms of killing and torturing

 8     prisoners, that is something I cannot say to you now.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Are you trying to say that formally he was that but

10     that he did not have that power and that those two who would come in were

11     more powerful than he was?  Actually, there were three of them, some of

12     Arkan's men and Goran Jelisic, and Vojkan Djurkovic; right?

13        A.   If it would be of assistance to you to understand the situation

14     in Luka in 1990, this is what I'm going to say to you:  Once when I was

15     in Kosta's office, on the way out of his office, at the door of his

16     office, there was a typewritten text stating that no one had the right to

17     enter the hangar and take prisoners out, mistreat them, hit them, or kill

18     them without the presence of Mr. Konstantin Simonovic who signed that

19     sheet of paper as commander of the investigation prison of Luka.

20        Q.   And was that complied with?

21        A.   In my case, I believe that it was.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, it's now time to -- for you to

23     conclude.  You have -- you will have up to 12.00.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellency, it's really very

25     little, very little time.  Many things will remain uncovered.

Page 16695

 1             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think you are in a position to complain

 2     about a shortage of time after having spent your time on those marginal

 3     issues for such a long time.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, very well, but can I be given

 5     at least half an hour?  I'm not asking for a whole session.  I'm asking

 6     for half an hour, and that is very little for such an important witness.

 7     It's very important to spot the controversies and contradictions and also

 8     to arrive at the truth as to who was there and who did what.  It would be

 9     a shame to miss that opportunity.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  It's a shame to miss after having wasted your

11     time.  I'll consult my colleagues but before, I'll hear from Mr. Gaynor.

12             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, I think this is a clear tactic by the accused

13     to pretend that he's not given enough time for cross-examination -- to

14     conduct his cross-examination.  He's been encouraged time and time again

15     to get straight to the heart of the matter in his first few questions.

16     Yesterday, we had questions about crimes committed against Serbs in

17     World War II, which is totally irrelevant to these proceedings.  Again

18     and again, he attempts to put the Trial Chamber in the position of

19     thinking that it hasn't given him enough time to cross-examine when it

20     has.  Thank you.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I be allowed to respond to

22     this?  May I respond?

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would not have mentioned crimes

25     from the Second World War if the witness himself had not interpreted my

Page 16696

 1     speech at the founding session of the SDS.  That was the only reason I

 2     introduced what I did.  I just wanted to check whether the witness knew

 3     what the gist of my appearance was.  I could not leave that without a

 4     comment, without shedding light on my own words.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Whatever you may have more to ask this witness about

 7     Luka camp, you will have ten minutes.  Conclude by ten past.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   On two occasions you stated that in your case a mistake had been

11     made.  Did they want to arrest somebody else?  Did they mistake you for

12     somebody else?  You said yourself that Rade Bozic, himself, had been told

13     that a wrong man was arrested, and secondly, Rade Bozic was told that the

14     Serbian police had made a mistake in your case.  Have you ever discovered

15     who was supposed to be arrested instead of you?

16        A.   I know that when Ivan beat me up that a Serbian soldier entered

17     and said that I was not the man that they had actually been after, and

18     Rade Bozic told me that I was a good person and that that's what he was

19     told at the Brcko SUP by Petar Gavrilovic and the people who worked at

20     the SUP at the time and who knew me.  They told him that I was not a man

21     who had ever had anything against the Serbian people nor would I ever

22     have anything against them in the future.  That's the kind of man I am,

23     Mr. Karadzic.

24        Q.   So you were beaten by mistake on one occasion, and then somebody

25     said, "Why is this man in prison?"  And the answer was the Serbian police

Page 16697

 1     have made a mistake; right?

 2        A.   It was not the Serbian police that had made a mistake when they

 3     came to Elektrodistribucija in Brcko and when they asked Mr. Bahto

 4     Ristic, the director of Elektrodistribucija at the time, where Isak Gasi

 5     the athlete was, and then the two of them pushed me into the van and

 6     drove me to the police station.  Why they did that, who had ordered them

 7     to arrest me, I don't know.

 8        Q.   Is it true that when somebody asked why is this man in prison, he

 9     was answered, "The Serbian police have made a mistake"?  That was stated

10     on page 25.  Let's see it.

11             Was that, indeed, the answer, that the police have made a

12     mistake?  Let's not try to find it.  Somebody asked, "Why is this man in

13     prison?"  And the answer was, "The police have made a mistake."  Right?

14        A.   I don't know.  It's possible that was the answer that he got.  I

15     don't know.  I was in Luka.  I had been arrested.  I was beaten up.  I

16     saw all sorts of things.  I know that all of a -- I studied -- I started

17     praying to God although I had never been a believer or religious person.

18             I am a good man.  Even Mr. Rade Bozic himself told me that.

19        Q.   Is it correct that you were asked never to tell anybody that you

20     had been beaten and that you even complied with that and you kept on

21     repeated that your scars are the result of your sleeping on the concrete?

22        A.   Well, this is the lesson that I learned on day one from the other

23     prisoners.

24        Q.   In the Krajisnik case - we don't have to call the document

25     up - you testified that you had been asked whether you were beaten and

Page 16698

 1     you said no.  And then you were asked why there were scratches on your

 2     face and head, and you answered this was from sleeping on the floor.

 3        A.   Yes.  Mr. Petar Kaurinovic asked me, "Gasi, why are you black and

 4     blue all over the face and head?"  And then I told him, "Pero, please

 5     leave me be.  I had spent the entire night sleeping on the floor."

 6        Q.   In line 17 he told you:  "Just tell me if somebody ill-treats

 7     you.  We know you.  We know who you are, and I will help you."

 8        A.   Yes.  Yes, that's correct.

 9        Q.   What was Kaurinovic's role?

10        A.   He was a crime inspector before the war and he continued being a

11     policeman during the war.

12        Q.   And he interviewed the prisoners.  He carried out the

13     investigations; right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   When did you attend sessions of the Municipal Assembly, during

16     what time?

17        A.   In April 1992.

18        Q.   Uh-huh.  When did you see Mr. Ristanic in uniform in the

19     Municipal Assembly?  You did see him?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   But when?

22        A.   It may have been the end of April.  I don't know exactly.  During

23     one week of April or around that time, I'm sure.  Actually, that was

24     during the last session of the Municipal Assembly of Brcko.  I can't

25     remember the date, but it was the last session.

Page 16699

 1        Q.   There is some confusion, Mr. Gasi, about where you saw me.  Did

 2     you attend a session of Prosjeta, the Serbian culture association?

 3        A.   Yes.  That was in the culture hall.

 4        Q.   Did you see me there, or did you see me at the founding session

 5     of the SDS?

 6        A.   You were not in the culture hall, but you were at the founding

 7     session of the SDS in Brcko.

 8        Q.   However, in some of your statements you stated that you saw me

 9     there together with Buha; right?

10        A.   No, that's not correct.  I never stated that.

11        Q.   You also noticed Goran Cesic.  It is actually Ranko Cesic whom

12     you saw; right?  And he used to wear different uniforms.

13        A.   Yes.  I saw him twice in Luka.

14        Q.   There were times when he wore an olive-drab uniform, and other

15     times he wore a blue uniform; right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Kosta in -- called you and said that you had a visitor.

18     Rade Bozic shook hands with you, and Kosta asked you not to tell him that

19     you had been maltreated in Luka.

20        A.   Kosta didn't say that.  He just said, "Don't fret.  You will be

21     rowing for Yugoslavia again."

22        Q.   However, the Helsinki committee statement of which you say that

23     it is not correct and that's why I'm not calling it up, it says in it

24     that Kosta said, "Tell him that you had not been maltreated," and Rade

25     conveyed greetings to you from your wife, and then Kosta asked you into

Page 16700

 1     his office for a cup of coffee, and then Rade said, "Why is this man in

 2     prison?"

 3             And then Kosta said, "The Serbian police have made a mistake."

 4             That's on page 6 of your statement as interpreted by the Helsinki

 5     committee.  Is that what transpired?  Rade Bozic was brought in, you

 6     shook hands, you chatted and then you went into his office and then it

 7     was mentioned that the Serbian police made a mistake; right?

 8        A.   I'm not sure 100 per cent, but it is possible that that's how

 9     things transpired, because we really did have a friendly conversation

10     lasting for some 20 minutes.

11        Q.   And they were your released and --

12             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, it's now time to put your last

13     question.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   When you attended that session of the Municipal Assembly, you

16     said that there was a lot of noise and shouting and that at one point

17     Ristanic banged his fist on the desk and demanded that the municipality

18     be divided; is that correct?

19        A.   Yes.  Yes.  That was an Assembly session of the city of Brcko;

20     right?

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you, Mr. Gasi,

22     and I have no more time.

23             It is possible that I spent too much time on trying to paint a

24     picture of Brcko, Excellencies, but it was necessary.  I wanted to do

25     that with a Muslim witness.  I wanted to paint a complete picture of

Page 16701

 1     Brcko.  And I'm really sorry.  I really regret I haven't been given more

 2     time.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Karadzic, a correction.  I'm

 4     not a Muslim.  My father is an Albanian from Kosovo, and my mother was a

 5     Muslim from Brcko, but I was raised as a Yugoslav.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   I respect that, but you declared yourself as a Bosniak Muslim and

 8     a Yugoslav.

 9        A.   In 1992, you Serbs wanted me to be a Bosnian extremist and a

10     Muslim.

11        Q.   Mr. Gasi, were you a member of a multi-ethnic party or were you a

12     member of the SDA?  Let's just be clear on that?

13             JUDGE KWON:  I stopped.  Yes, Mr. Gaynor.

14             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

15                           Re-examination by Mr. Gaynor:

16        Q.   I'd just like to clarify two small points.  First of all,

17     Mr. Karadzic asked you a fair number of questions about Pudic who struck

18     you at Luka camp, whether there was Branko Pudic or Jovan Pudic.  Do you

19     remember those questions?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Yesterday, as a matter of fact, I had asked you which Pudic had

22     hit you at Luka camp.  Do you remember that?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Which Pudic was it?

25        A.   The only one that I have been mentioning all the time, and that

Page 16702

 1     is Branko Pudic.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  I want to clarify your position in relation to the

 3     document created by the Danish Helsinki committee on the 7th of May,

 4     1993.  I would like to call up page 3 of 1D03890, which was shown to you

 5     during cross-examination.

 6             Now, at the bottom of the first paragraph of this statement, it's

 7     just two sentences, I'll just say that you gave -- say that you gave a

 8     supplementary statement to the members of the Danish Helsinki committee.

 9     You say:

10             "I must point out that many facts in this interview are incorrect

11     due to the fact -- excuse me, due to that fact and the fact that I never

12     signed that record, since I received a copy of it in English, a long time

13     after the interview was held.  I do not consider it to be my statement."

14     Do you see that part?

15        A.   Yes, I do.

16        Q.   Does that remain your position today?

17        A.   Yes, it does.

18        Q.   Thank you very much, Mr. Gasi.

19             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.  No further questions.  I

20     do have some clarifications to make about the exhibits which I can do

21     after the witness has withdrawn, if you wish.

22             JUDGE KWON:  You're not tendering this document?

23             MR. GAYNOR:  We can tender that page, Your Honours.  I've read

24     out the relevant part, but I'm willing to tender this page as a document

25     or indeed the entire document as Your Honours wish.

Page 16703

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, this page will be admitted.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P3023, Your Honours.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender the page we

 4     displayed and from which we cited paragraph 13.  In e-court it is the

 5     fifth page, I believe.  Perhaps we could take a look at page 5.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Have we not admitted the Helsinki statement?

 7             MR. GAYNOR:  I don't believe that's been admitted yet.  There's

 8     no objection to its admission subject --

 9             JUDGE KWON:  19924.  Are you referring to at that statement,

10     Mr. Karadzic?

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D3890 is the one I have in mind.

12     It has just been called up by Mr. Gaynor.  1D3890.  That statement was

13     given in 2008, the one that has been on the screen just recently.  If we

14     look at page 1, we will see that the statement was provided by Mr. Gasi

15     in 2008.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Let's deal with it one by one.  My question was

17     whether you are minded to tender the 65 ter number 19924, which is an

18     alleged statement or interview given to Helsinki committee by this

19     witness.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.

21             JUDGE KWON:  First we'll admit it as Defence Exhibit.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D1569, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE KWON:  And what is your opinion as to this supplementary

24     witness statement which I think it was just tendered as part of 92 ter.

25             MR. GAYNOR:  It hasn't been tendered by us.  It shouldn't be

Page 16704

 1     broadcast at the moment, please, Mr. Registrar.  This has not been

 2     tendered by us.  There is no objection to the admission of it in its

 3     entirety or to the page requested by Mr. Karadzic.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  What did you say, Mr. Karadzic?  If you are not

 5     tendering it, let's leave it at that.  Very well.

 6             MR. GAYNOR:  Very well.  I'll just clarify three other things.

 7     Earlier on I sought the admission of associated exhibit 7113.

 8     Mr. Registrar's inform me that's been admitted as P2888.  Next, yesterday

 9     there were two video-clips which were subject to some discussion and

10     rulings by Your Honours, P3006 and P3007.  We've uploaded versions of

11     those two clips which comply with the rulings given by Your Honours.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you very much.

13             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  That --

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we admit paragraphs 13 and 36

16     in the statement, because we have called up both?  Both deal with the

17     conflict in Brcko and the role of Vojkan Djurkovic, paragraphs 13 and 36

18     of the 2008 statement.

19             JUDGE KWON:  The Prosecution is not tendering any part of that

20     document, and as such there's no basis for you tender those paragraphs.

21             Mr. Gasi, that concludes your evidence.  On behalf of the Chamber

22     and the Tribunal as a whole, I would like to thank you for your coming to

23     The Hague yet again to give it.  Now you are free to go.  Thank you.

24             THE WITNESS:  Thank you -- [Interpretation] Thank you,

25     Your Honour.

Page 16705

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you on behalf of the Defence,

 2     Mr. Gasi.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Karadzic.

 4                           [The witness withdrew]

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Given the time the Chamber is minded to take a break

 6     now for half an hour, and then I would like to inform the parties the

 7     Chamber is minded to conclude -- is to -- minded to rise at 20 past 2.00

 8     today.

 9             Half an hour.  We will resume at 10 to 1.00.

10                           --- Recess taken at 12.20 p.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 12.52 p.m.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Good afternoon, Mr. Hayden.

13             MR. HAYDEN:  Good afternoon, Mr. President.  I wanted to quickly

14     raise the issue of the need to provide this witness with a Rule 90(E)

15     warning prior to his testimony in the absence of the witness.  He's been

16     treated as a suspect in each of his prior interviews with the OTP, and

17     for that reason we think the warning is necessary.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Let's bring in the witness.

19             MR. HAYDEN:  And just while the witness is being brought in I'll

20     just address a procedure matter.  Just before the break, we had the

21     discussion about the admission of Mr. Gasi's 2008 statement.  Just to

22     clarify, just prior to that we admitted or there was admitted one page of

23     that statement as Exhibit P3203.  We understood the subsequent

24     conversation meant that's not admitted any more and we vacate that

25     exhibit number.

Page 16706

 1             JUDGE KWON:  That's correct.

 2             MR. HAYDEN:  Thank you.

 3                           [The witness entered court]

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Good afternoon, sir.  If you could take the solemn

 5     declaration, please.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 7     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 8                           WITNESS:  DJORDJE RISTANIC

 9                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Please be seated and make yourself

11     comfortable.

12             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

13             JUDGE KWON:  I take it this has been explained to you.  Before

14     you start giving evidence, Mr. Ristanic, I would like to draw your

15     attention to a particular Rule here at the Tribunal.

16             Under this Rule, Rule 90(E), you may object to answering a

17     question from the Prosecution or the accused or from the Judges if you

18     believe that your answer will incriminate you.  When I say "incriminate,"

19     I mean that something you say may amount to an admission of your guilt

20     for a criminal offence or could provide evidence that you have committed

21     an offence.  However, even if you think your answer will incriminate you

22     and you do not wish to answer the question, the Tribunal has the

23     discretion to oblige you to answer the question.  However, in such a

24     case, the Tribunal will make sure that your testimony compelled in such a

25     way shall not be used as evidence in other case against you for any

Page 16707

 1     offence other than false testimony.

 2             Mr. Ristanic, do you understand what I have just told you?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 5             Yes, Mr. Gaynor -- I'm sorry.  Mr. Hayden.

 6             MR. HAYDEN:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 7                           Examination by Mr. Hayden:

 8        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Ristanic.  Could I have 65 ter 90248.  What

 9     is being brought up on the screen in front of you is a statement

10     amalgamating evidence you have provided to the Office of the Prosecutor

11     in recorded interviews in 1998 and 2003.  Is that your signature that we

12     see on the front page, Mr. Ristanic?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And does that indicate you have had an opportunity to review this

15     amalgamated statement?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And can you today confirm that the contents of the statement are

18     accurate, and if you were asked to answer the same questions on the same

19     topics today the information you would provide would be the same?

20        A.   Yes.

21             MR. HAYDEN:  In those circumstances, I tender this statement,

22     Mr. President.  One thing to note:  The English translation we had

23     appended to the final Rule 92 ter notification contained some errors.  A

24     corrected English translation has since then been uploaded into e-court

25     and does match the B/C/S translation which -- B/C/S version which

Page 16708

 1     Mr. Ristanic has adopted as his evidence.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  That will be admitted.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P3023, Your Honours.

 4             MR. HAYDEN:  I'll now read a summary of that statement.

 5             Mr. Djordje Ristanic was an SDS politician in Brcko municipality

 6     serving as the president of the War Presidency from the beginning of the

 7     conflict.  At the end of December 1991; the SDS in Brcko established a

 8     Serb Assembly in response to the so-called Variant A and B instructions.

 9     On the 29th of April, 1992, the Brcko SDS met, and upon faxed

10     instructions from the accused formed a war presidency.  Early the next

11     morning, Serb forces blew up the bridges in Brcko, which signalled the

12     beginning of the takeover of the town by forces which included the JNA,

13     Serb Territorial Defence, and various paramilitaries.

14             On or around 3rd of May, 1992, the SDS-appointed Dragan Veselic

15     took over as chief of police and Serb police were asked to mobilise and

16     return.

17             A detention facility was established at the port, so-called Luka

18     camp, where non-Serb civilians were detained, mistreated, and in some

19     cases killed.

20             That concludes the summary.

21        Q.   I now have some further questions for you, Mr. Ristanic.  65 ter

22     23163, please.

23             According to the statement that is now in evidence, key members

24     of the War Presidency, including yourself, were evacuated to Stanovi

25     outside of Brcko prior to the blowing up of bridges and the

Page 16709

 1     War Presidency returned to the town on or about the 4th of May.  Now

 2     when, you returned to the town, who was in control of Brcko town?

 3        A.   It was just one part of the city of Brcko, and that was

 4     controlled by the Serb forces.

 5        Q.   Looking at the map of Brcko in front of us --

 6             MR. HAYDEN:  And, Mr. Registrar, if we could zoom in on the

 7     central portion of the map.  Yes.  Thank you.

 8        Q.   Can you identify on this map the SJB building?  And if you can,

 9     can you please circle it and mark it with an A.  If you need it to be

10     zoomed in further, then please let me know.

11        A.   No, I don't need that.  [Marks]

12        Q.   And when you returned on the 4th of May, who controlled the SJB

13     building?

14        A.   Serb forces.

15        Q.   On the same map, can you identify the JNA garrison, and if you

16     can, mark it with a B.

17        A.   [Marks]

18        Q.   And when the War Presidency returned, where was it based

19     initially?

20        A.   Do you want me to encircle the place?

21        Q.   If you can just first answer the question.  Where on the 4th of

22     May when the War Presidency returned, where it was initially based.

23        A.   It was based in the building in Bijeljinska Cesta, which housed

24     the headquarters of the forestry company.

25        Q.   Was that building known as the Sumarija building?

Page 16710

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   I'll ask you to identify that building and circle it with a C.

 3        A.   [Marks]

 4        Q.   Was the War Presidency based in any other building from the

 5     period of 4 May onwards?  Either before or after the Sumarija, even if it

 6     was only temporary.

 7        A.   We spent one night in the barracks before the 4th of May.

 8        Q.   And that's the same barracks as you've marked with a B on the

 9     map; is that correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And lastly, are you able to identify on the map the location of

12     the detention facility known as Luka camp?

13        A.   [Marks]

14        Q.   And to orientate the Chamber who may or may not have been to

15     Brcko, can you estimate how long it would take to walk from the SJB

16     building to the entrance of Luka camp?

17        A.   About ten minutes.

18             MR. HAYDEN:  I tender that map into evidence, Mr. President.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

20                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

21             JUDGE KWON:  Correct.  Mr. Ristanic, would you be kind enough to

22     date -- put the date of today, which is 15th of July, 2011, and your

23     signature.

24             THE WITNESS: [Marks]

25             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit Number P3024, Your Honours.

Page 16711

 1             MR. HAYDEN:

 2        Q.   Mr. Ristanic, in light of the evidence in your statement that

 3     Serbs constituted approximately 20 per cent of the population in Brcko,

 4     to your knowledge what was the motivation or what prompted Serb forces to

 5     take control of the town, or part of the town as you've described?

 6        A.   To put it simply, at that moment that part of town was empty.

 7     You can see in the map that the barracks is in the centre of all those

 8     developments.  The JNA was still there, so it was only logical for the

 9     forces that were inside to want to control the area around the garrison,

10     the garrison itself and the area around the garrison to make the road

11     passable towards Bijeljina.

12        Q.   Mr. Ristanic, you spoke there about troops who were in the

13     barracks.  You also mention in your statement that various Serb forces

14     came from Bijeljina to assist in the takeover.  What prompted them or

15     what motivated them to take over Brcko?

16        A.   Serb forces within Brcko were minimal, and they needed

17     assistance, and that assistance could only be expected from the direction

18     of Bijeljina, which was part of the then SAO Semberija and Majevica.  We

19     had asked for assistance.  We wanted to talk to them, and they came to

20     talk to us.

21        Q.   I'm not sure you're answering the question specifically.  You've

22     stated here that you asked for assistance from the Serb forces in

23     Bijeljina.  Why did you require their assistance?  What task did you need

24     their assistance with?

25        A.   In the town itself on the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd of May there were

Page 16712

 1     very few people, very few residents capable of defending themselves.  On

 2     the 1st of May, shelling started from the eastern part of Brcko

 3     municipality and from across the River Sava, from Croatia.

 4        Q.   I'm going to ask you a few further questions about Luka camp,

 5     which is discussed in your statement.  How long after its arrival or your

 6     arrival back in Brcko from Stanovi did you or the War Presidency learn

 7     that people were being detained at the facility at the port?

 8        A.   We learnt about that very quickly.  I don't know when the camp

 9     was set up, but we knew of it very soon.

10        Q.   Can you just clarify "very quickly"?  Are we talking days ago,

11     hours?  Clarify that phrase, please.

12        A.   Within a few days or perhaps within a day or two, a couple days.

13     I don't know.

14        Q.   And from whom did you receive such information?

15        A.   I believe that I received -- not just me, but all of us received

16     that information from the chief of police.  He told us that at one of our

17     regular evening briefings.  And also I learned that from other citizens.

18     We were in town, and obviously we could learn that from our fellow

19     citizens.

20        Q.   According to the information you were receiving from the chief of

21     police and your fellow citizens, where did the people come from who were

22     being detained at the port facility?

23        A.   The citizens of Brcko were there.

24        Q.   Do you know whether these detainees had been detained in other

25     facilities prior to being detained at Luka?

Page 16713

 1        A.   I know that they had not been detained elsewhere.  They just

 2     found a temporary shelter in the barracks and in the Laser company, or

 3     perhaps the name of that company was Partisan -- or, rather, it was a

 4     gym, and only that were they -- only then were they taken to Luka, only

 5     some of them.

 6        Q.   Do you know the process by which persons were selected to go to

 7     Luka?  You mentioned only some of them were taken to Luka.

 8        A.   I don't know.

 9        Q.   Who took them to Luka from these facilities?

10        A.   I can only assume that those were Serb forces, troops.

11        Q.   Do you base that assumption on any information you received or

12     observations you made?

13        A.   That was based on the information that we received.

14        Q.   And according to the same information, what was the ethnicity of

15     the people who were being taken to Luka facility by the Serb forces?

16        A.   They were mostly Muslims.

17        Q.   You mentioned before you were headquartered at the barracks, the

18     JNA garrison, for one night upon your return to Brcko.  When you were

19     stationed there, were any civilians being either detained there or

20     staying there for their own protection?

21        A.   I remember seeing quite a lot of civilians within the barracks

22     compound because it's a huge space, and I saw those civilians in the

23     cafeteria or the mess or in the barracks or outside on the tarmac where

24     people gathered and where buses came.

25        Q.   You've told us that some of those people ended up at Luka camp

Page 16714

 1     facility.  Do you know upon which basis some were taken to Luka and

 2     others were not?

 3        A.   I don't know that.

 4        Q.   Did the War Presidency take any steps to determine what had

 5     happened to these civilians being detained or staying at the barracks?

 6        A.   Whilst they were in the barracks and at Laser, that wasn't a

 7     problem at all.  People found shelter there.  They were fed, et cetera.

 8     It didn't last long though.  When the camp was set up, and that is to

 9     say, when we heard that people were taken there, we of course reacted.

10     We discussed this on the Presidency, the War Presidency, and we also

11     talked to the brigade commander and other people who were in charge of

12     the garrison.

13        Q.   To clarify, Mr. Ristanic, you say when the camp was set up,

14     you're referring to Luka camp; is that right?

15        A.   Yes, yes.

16        Q.   Do you know upon which grounds, legal grounds or other, these

17     person -- these persons were detained at Luka camp?

18        A.   I don't know.

19        Q.   In your view were there any legal grounds for the detention of

20     these persons at Luka camp?

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.

22             JUDGE KWON:  For -- on what, Mr. Karadzic?

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Asked and answered, and now the

24     witness is asked to speculate.

25             JUDGE KWON:  It was not clear in the previous question, so he

Page 16715

 1     wanted to clarify.

 2             Mr. Ristanic, if you could answer the question.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can you please repeat the question?

 4             MR. HAYDEN:

 5        Q.   In your view, Mr. Ristanic, were there any legal grounds for the

 6     detention of these persons at Luka camp?

 7        A.   In my view and in the view of the War Presidency, there were no

 8     such reasons.

 9        Q.   Can you explain how you formed the conclusion that there were no

10     such reasons, no legal grounds?

11        A.   Well, in order to incarcerate someone, a procedure has to be

12     followed.  Someone has to be accused of something.  I suppose that's how

13     it works.

14        Q.   Did the War Presidency ever instruct the chief of police,

15     Mr. Veselic, to take any action with respect to Luka?

16        A.   Yes.  Yes.  This topic was discussed from day one, and it was

17     suggested to him that this mustn't go on.  However, he didn't have enough

18     strength or powers to disband this or abolish this.

19        Q.   Did he take any steps with respect to Luka camp?

20        A.   Yes, he did.  In agreement with us, he made an attempt to send

21     police inspectors to the camp so that they could see what was being done

22     there and to officially question people there to find out the reasons for

23     their detention, and on the basis of thus found facts, all those who were

24     kept there without any grounds would be released.

25             MR. HAYDEN:  65 ter 11266, please, Mr. Registrar.

Page 16716

 1        Q.   When a detainee was released, were they provided with anything

 2     from the police to mark the fact that they had been officially released

 3     from Luka or other places?

 4        A.   Yes.  They had passes, uniform passes that allowed individuals to

 5     move in and out of town.

 6        Q.   On the screen in front of you, Mr. Ristanic, is a pass which is

 7     dated the 9th of May, 1992.  Is that the kind of pass you were just

 8     referring to now?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   There's a seal affixed to this pass.  It reads Serbs Republic of

11     BH, SAO Semberija and Majevica, Assembly of the Brcko Municipality.  Do

12     you see that there?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Where did this seal come from?

15        A.   That was the only seal that we in the War Presidency had.  We got

16     it -- or, rather, people from Bijeljina brought it because we ordered it

17     to be made there, and I think it arrived or -- on the 4th or the 5th of

18     May.

19        Q.   Do you recall when you ordered this stamp to be made?

20        A.   When we first met the people from Bijeljina.  That was on the 3rd

21     or 4th of May.

22        Q.   Mr. Ristanic, you've just told us that you ordered it to be made

23     there and it arrived on the 4th or 5th of May.  When did you first meet

24     the people from Bijeljina and make this order?

25        A.   The first time we met with them was, I think, in the -- on the

Page 16717

 1     evening of the 3rd of May, or maybe on the afternoon, in the village of

 2     Stanovi.

 3        Q.   And this was the only stamp that the War Presidency had in Brcko;

 4     is that right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             MR. HAYDEN:  65 ter 07894, please.  And I'll tender the document

 7     on the screen, Mr. President.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P3025, Your Honours.

10             MR. HAYDEN:

11        Q.   What's coming up on the screen now, Mr. Ristanic, is another pass

12     issued in Brcko, this time on the 14th of May, 1992.

13             Is this pass adopting the same format or template as the pass

14     that we just had on our screen a moment ago?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And again, is that the seal of the War Presidency that we saw

17     affixed to the pass on our screen a moment ago?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Do you know anyone that went by the name or nickname "Adolf" in

20     Brcko at this time?

21        A.   Yes, I do.

22        Q.   Who was that?

23        A.   That was Goran Jelisic.

24        Q.   How did Goran Jelisic come to possess the stamp of the

25     War Presidency in Brcko?

Page 16718

 1        A.   He didn't have it in his hands.  He was given passes already

 2     verified and with a seal affixed.

 3        Q.   Who gave him those passes?

 4        A.   We gave him.

 5        Q.   Was that because Goran Jelisic was working in co-ordination with

 6     the War Presidency?

 7        A.   No.  No.  That was done because when we first intervened for some

 8     people to be released, we provided a number of passes for the people for

 9     whom we knew that they were all right, that they were being kept there

10     unnecessarily, and I described in my statement how all this took place.

11        Q.   You've testified that you instructed Dragan Veselic to undertake

12     steps with respect to Luka and that in the view of the War Presidency

13     there was no legal grounds for the detention of these people.  Why didn't

14     the War Presidency instruct him to immediately close the camp?

15        A.   Because we didn't have any authority over him or other people who

16     were there with him.  They wouldn't listen to us.

17        Q.   When did you first visit Luka camp, Mr. Ristanic?

18        A.   I visited one of the offices in front of the Luka camp where

19     police inspectors were.  It might be the same date, I don't know.  I was

20     asked by a number of people from town and other residents of Brcko and

21     some of my friends to do something and to have these people released.

22     With the chief of police, I agreed to go there to meet with the

23     inspectors, and I drove there with a friend of mine.  We reviewed some

24     documents, and there were quite a few of them on the desk in that office,

25     and then together, based on the names or the photographs, we selected, I

Page 16719

 1     would say, 80 to 100 people for whom we were sure that nobody would

 2     criticise us or create any problems for us for choosing them to be set

 3     free.

 4             Before that, Goran Jelisic was asked whether he would release

 5     those people if we provided guarantees for them, and he said yes, and

 6     that's what we did.  We took care that nobody who was probably guilty of

 7     something be among those whom he released eventually.

 8        Q.   A couple of follow-up questions to that answer.  Firstly, you

 9     said it might be the same date that you visited Luka camp.  Can you tell

10     us which date you are referring to?  The same date as what?

11        A.   I'm talking about the 14th of May, which is in the heading of

12     this pass.  Possibly that was the date.

13        Q.   And secondly, you released somewhere between 80 and 100 people.

14     So you had the authority to release those persons.

15        A.   I just told you.  We asked him if it was possible for the people

16     for whom we provide guarantees that he would release those people.  We

17     even didn't know how many people were in custody.

18             MR. HAYDEN:  65 ter 06940, please.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Have you admitted this?

20             MR. HAYDEN:  Yes.  Thank you, Mr. President.  That will be

21     tendered for admission.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  That will be admitted.

23             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

25             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President.  I was wondering if the

Page 16720

 1     Prosecution has an unredacted copy of that.

 2             MR. HAYDEN:  We do, in fact, and we disclosed it unredacted, but

 3     for the purposes of admission, we didn't think it was necessary for the

 4     name, the witness's name, to be revealed.  They're not a witness in this

 5     case.

 6             MR. ROBINSON:  Very well.  We'll look for that document.  Thank

 7     you.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  That will be admitted as Exhibit P3026.

 9             MR. HAYDEN:  If I can clarify further for the Defence.  I believe

10     the original is unredacted, and the English translation has always been

11     in a redacted form.  That's the copy where you possess also.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Before moving further, the witness referred to Serb

13     forces in several places, for example.  When he returned, the town was

14     under the control of Serb forces or it was the Serb forces that took

15     persons to Luka camp.

16             Mr. Ristanic, can you tell us what you meant by the "Serb

17     forces"?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I meant by when I said "Serb

19     forces" was primarily active-duty and reserve officers of the JNA,

20     reservists, Territorial Defence, in as many of them as there were at the

21     time in town, and also a number of military policemen who happened to be

22     there at the time.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Military policemen where?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were billeted in the barracks

25     as well, the garrison barracks.

Page 16721

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Did you mean JNA?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr. Hayden.

 4             MR. HAYDEN:

 5        Q.   And one follow-up question.  There's references occasionally in

 6     your statement to paramilitaries.  At the time that Mr. President is

 7     referring to, the initial period of May, were the paramilitaries

 8     independent of the Territorial Defence or included within the Territorial

 9     Defence, to your knowledge?

10        A.   I think that they were independent.  Paramilitary forces arrived

11     at the same time when people from Semberija came, which is on the 4th of

12     May, and I think that they were freelancers initially.

13             JUDGE KWON:  So Serb forces would include those paramilitaries.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not at the beginning, because there

15     were no paramilitary forces until the forces from Bijeljina arrived.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

17             MR. HAYDEN:

18        Q.   Do you recognise what is depicted in this photograph,

19     Mr. Ristanic?

20        A.   Yes, I do.  That's the commodity reserves warehouse of our former

21     state, and in one section of this complex was the Luka camp.

22        Q.   Again, taking the pen, can you mark for us what you refer to as

23     the entrance to Luka camp.

24        A.   Are you referring to the main gate or just the gate to this

25     specific facility?

Page 16722

 1        Q.    I believe you referred to an entrance, but if you can mark for

 2     us what was the main point of entry when you visited Luka camp.

 3        A.   [Marks]

 4        Q.   And on this photograph, can you identify the office that you

 5     referred to where you sorted through the photographs and files on your

 6     visit to Luka.

 7        A.   I think that that was the administration building of the Luka.

 8        Q.   Did you see any detainees while you were visiting Luka camp?

 9        A.   No.  No.  No one was outside.

10        Q.   Where were they when you were visiting Luka camp?

11        A.   They were inside the facility, the one that I marked, and this is

12     the entrance, and then the exit on the other side, towards the river, and

13     this is where they were.

14        Q.   Thank you.  If you can put an A next to the entrance, a B next to

15     the office, today's date and your signature, please.

16             MR. HAYDEN:  I tender that into evidence.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  This will be admitted.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P3027, Your Honours.

19             MR. HAYDEN:

20        Q.   Did you ever return to Luka camp, Mr. Ristanic?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Why not?

23        A.   For a variety of reasons.  First of all, nothing could be done in

24     terms of providing assistance, and I was not the only resident of Brcko

25     who didn't want to go there apart from those who worked there.

Page 16723

 1        Q.   Did any other members of the War Presidency, to your knowledge,

 2     visit Luka camp aside from Mr. Veselic, the chief of police?

 3        A.   I don't think that anyone visited the camp, not even Veselic.  I

 4     have no information in that regard.

 5        Q.   You mentioned Goran Jelisic before, as the man who was nicknamed

 6     Adolf in the past, that is now admitted into evidence.  When did you

 7     first meet Goran Jelisic?

 8        A.   I never met this Goran Jelisic, but I do remember -- when

 9     everything came into light, I remember -- remembered his face, and I

10     remember meeting him at the beginning of the war, because he and another

11     policeman were assigned to accompany me when we visited Serbian villages.

12     They were kind of a security detail that was begin to me.  I went there

13     in a police car, and we simply wanted to visit the villagers there to

14     gauge the mood amongst them and see what was happening.  Later on, I

15     learned that he was the man, but I don't know when that was, the 3rd or

16     the 4th of May.  So I went there in order to ask those people to agree to

17     be mobilised, not to flee, to stay in their homes, et cetera.

18        Q.   Who assigned Goran Jelisic to you, or who assigned the security

19     detail to you?

20        A.   I think it was Veselic, the chief of police.  Whether it was

21     after the 3rd of May or not, I don't know.  I simply asked for a car and

22     two uniformed policemen to accompany me, and he selected those two.  I

23     know that one of them was Jelisic, but as for the other one I can't even

24     remember his name.

25        Q.   Prior to your subsequent visit to Luka camp and the provision of

Page 16724

 1     the freedom of movement passes by the War Presidency to Goran Jelisic,

 2     had you heard anything about Mr. Jelisic's activities in Brcko?

 3        A.   Yes.  I heard it first from the neighbours in my street, because

 4     I live in the same area where the Luka camp was situated.  This

 5     neighbourhood is called Srpska Varos.  It was about 300 metres from my

 6     house, and I heard if from my neighbours and from my father that a man

 7     called Jelisic appeared.  That was interesting, because he had an uncle

 8     living on the same street.  His uncle was a good man, and I remembered

 9     that name because I know that they did not hail from the area of Brcko.

10     I heard that he was harassing people around the area of the Orthodox

11     cemetery and elsewhere, but he was not the only one doing that.  I mean,

12     he wasn't acting alone.  He had some people with him.

13        Q.   You say you heard about his activities from your neighbours and

14     others.  Just very briefly, what were the nature of the activities you

15     heard about?

16        A.   I heard that he was taking people away, breaking into houses,

17     taking people, and I think that all of this was happening before the

18     induction of the Luka camp.  I heard that he picked the houses of wealthy

19     people, that he harassed them and robbed them.  However, I didn't hear of

20     any killings or murders being committed in town itself.

21             MR. HAYDEN:  65 ter 07034, please.

22             JUDGE KWON:  While it is being uploaded, Mr. Hayden, in relation

23     to the exhibit we admitted under the number 3025, which is a travel

24     permit, the name of which was redacted, in your notification, that bears

25     the name.  So is it to be reclassified?

Page 16725

 1             MR. HAYDEN:  Thank you, Mr. President.  That is an oversight.

 2     That is to be reclassified or we can provide a public version of that

 3     notification.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 5             MR. HAYDEN:

 6        Q.   Have you seen this photograph before, Mr. Ristanic?

 7        A.   Yes, I have.  I saw it in a newspaper at the time and then again

 8     much, much later.

 9        Q.   Which newspaper and at which time?

10        A.   Well, I don't know exactly.  I think it was a French newspaper,

11     and I think that it was the month of August or September.  I don't know

12     exactly.  1992.

13        Q.   Do you recognise where this photograph is taken?

14        A.   Yes.  That is the so-called craft centre, the entrance to the

15     crafts centre.  This is the entranceway.  To the right is the craft

16     centre, and to the left is the former cinema Oslobodjenje, and so on.

17        Q.   Do you recognise any persons in this photograph?

18        A.   No, not from the back.

19        Q.   Did you come to learn of the identity of any persons in this

20     photograph?

21        A.   Yes.  Yes.  Yes.  Yes.  I learned that the man in the blue shirt

22     is Jelisic.

23        Q.   The man we see on the left-hand side, do you recognise that

24     uniform?

25        A.   Well, I've been trying all along, but it's so dark that I really

Page 16726

 1     cannot.  It's dark, and I don't know.  I cannot say.

 2             MR. HAYDEN:  I tender this photograph, Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Exhibit P3028.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  Exhibit P3028, Your Honours.

 5             MR. HAYDEN:

 6        Q.   Did the War Presidency or yourself learn of any crimes committed

 7     by Goran Jelisic at Luka camp?

 8        A.   No.  No.  Not at the camp itself.  Later on when the camp was

 9     disbanded, we heard stories about killings down there, although we know

10     about some other killings, specifically here by the police station and --

11     and in front of the Posavina Hotel, but Luka, at the time we did not know

12     that there were killings there.  We were convinced that it was, indeed, a

13     collection centre.

14        Q.   Mr. Ristanic, is it your position that the War Presidency,

15     yourself included, did not have any contemporaneous information about

16     crimes being committed at Luka camp in May 1992?

17        A.   We did have information from these police inspectors that there

18     was mistreatment, but as for killings, specific killings, I'm not sure

19     that we had information in May specifically, but we did know that people

20     were being mistreated, that they were being forced to sing.  That could

21     even be heard during the night, to sing all together as a choir, but as

22     for special mass killings, we did not know about that.

23        Q.   When was Luka camp closed?

24        A.   I really, really do not know the date.  I think it was being

25     closed in succession, on successive days.  From the first day we got

Page 16727

 1     there to ask for the release of these people, and everyday there was less

 2     and less of them, but I really don't know the date.  I think that it was

 3     emptied to a considerable degree when these people were being taken to

 4     Batkovici, near Bijeljina.

 5        Q.   What steps did the War Presidency take to find out whether Luka

 6     had been closed down?

 7        A.   Well, in agreement with the chief of the police, we asked to have

 8     all victims recorded and identified and to conduct a proper crime

 9     investigation to the extent possible, and to leave that for some better

10     times when one could investigate that in peace.  Who did something, what

11     for, and so on, because for the most part these were rumours, many names

12     were being mentioned, that they were victims there and then that they

13     were being mistreated by others and that there were murders and this and

14     that, but at the time we just knew for sure that it was Jelisic, because

15     he confirmed it himself.  He was bragging about it in public.  We found

16     out only about the rest only much, much later, years later.  It wasn't

17     only Jelisic who was convicted for what happened there, there were others

18     against whom court proceedings took place.

19        Q.   We will return to the issue of investigations shortly.  I now

20     want to ask you some questions about the provision of information to

21     persons or institutions outside of Brcko.

22             MR. HAYDEN:  Exhibit P2888, please.

23        Q.   The document that's being brought up, Mr. Ristanic, is a summary

24     of events which in your statement you confirm that you authored or

25     coauthored, you signed.  The document is undated.  Can you say

Page 16728

 1     approximately when this document was created and sent to the Presidency

 2     and the government?

 3        A.   I really don't know whether it was the end of May or the

 4     beginning of June.  End of May, beginning of June, I really don't know.

 5     I think it was just when the conflict started.  This was the first survey

 6     that was written up.  Nothing was written before that, so it could have

 7     been May, June.

 8        Q.   Turn to page 6 of the English and 17 of the B/C/S.  The final

 9     sentence of the report reads:

10             "All other necessary information available to us will be

11     presented in a more detailed conversation with senior organs."

12             Firstly, who are the senior organs you refer to here?

13        A.   It is primarily the Presidency of the republic that is the senior

14     organ, the Presidency of the Republika Srpska, the government, perhaps

15     someone from the Assembly, too, but the Assembly only because we had an

16     MP from Brcko who was a member of that Assembly and who could communicate

17     in that way as well, but primarily the Presidency of the republic and the

18     government.

19        Q.   And to your knowledge did such conversations subsequently take

20     place?

21        A.   I did not talk to anyone, but I know for sure that that problem

22     was being pointed out.  And not only that one, all these problems that

23     are mentioned here in this document.  The Member of Parliament and the

24     president of the local SDS pointed that out when communicating with these

25     organs.  We primarily asked for help, help that did arrive, but there

Page 16729

 1     were probably many such situations in other municipalities, so the help

 2     could not arrive immediately.

 3             MR. HAYDEN:  Exhibit P1607, please.

 4        Q.   The next document on the screen, Mr. Ristanic, is a report

 5     authored by Slobodan Aviljas and it is discussed in your statement.  You

 6     confirmed in your statement that a handwritten note appended to this

 7     report, that is at page 7 of the B/C/S and 8 of the English, was handed

 8     to Mr. Aviljas in your presence when he visited Brcko.  Now, the note

 9     refers to 216 bodies in a mass grave, and says that as of 10 July, 1992,

10     the people killed were buried at a cemetery properly marked and with

11     religious rites.  Can you clarify:  Did you mean that these 216 bodies

12     were reburied or is that a reference to deceased persons from 10 July

13     onwards?

14        A.   These are persons who lost their life from the 1st of May until

15     the 10th of June.

16        Q.   I understand that's the persons referred to in the list, but this

17     comment that the people, as of 10 July, 1992, the people killed were

18     buried at a cemetery, is that referring to this 216 or is that a

19     reference to the people killed after 10th of July?

20        A.   I think, I'm not sure, but what is being referred to here, I mean

21     if this document was brought to Aviljas in September, then that is the

22     number of deceased persons who were killed, identified, et cetera, until

23     then.  Out of this figure of 216, now, I don't know exactly.  They were

24     buried at the Muslim cemetery.  So it was the period up until the moment

25     when this report was being presented.  In my view.  That is my

Page 16730

 1     understanding of this document.

 2             MR. HAYDEN:  If we can turn the page, Mr. Registrar.

 3        Q.   Behind this handwritten note in the report is a series of lists

 4     and it begins on the 6th of May -- sorry, the 5th of May, 1992, and then

 5     the following page is the 6th of May, et cetera, et cetera.

 6             Can you confirm that these lists of persons were also handed over

 7     to Mr. Aviljas in your presence in Brcko?

 8        A.   I know that this was handed over but I cannot remember exactly

 9     now whether these were the names that were there then, but I think that

10     is it because no other list was given.

11        Q.   Finally, with respect to these lists, who was responsible for

12     identifying the bodies in these mass graves?  We see that in some

13     instances we have a full name, an age, sometimes a street address.  Who

14     was responsible for identifying those persons?

15        A.   It was the inspectors from the public security station who on the

16     basis of the documents they had or did not have, or on the basis of the

17     fact that they knew someone, they identified these persons.  It had been

18     agreed that this should be done, that it should all be documented so

19     that, one day, further investigations could take place and possible

20     prosecutions.

21        Q.   And when was that agreed that that would occur?  We see the first

22     list is the 5th of May.  Is the agreement concurrent with that list?

23        A.   No.  The list was written up as things happened, but we had a

24     problem at the very outset when we arrived in Brcko.  There was the

25     problem of people being killed and left in the street, and these people

Page 16731

 1     could not be just left there in that place, and they could not be buried

 2     without having been identified.  So at the suggestion of the

 3     War Presidency and these people from the police, it was agreed that this

 4     should be done as it should be done, that is to say, to have these

 5     persons identified, removed from the streets, and buried.  Later on, this

 6     became a mass grave, but at the outset it was an area that was meant for

 7     that, to have these people buried there.

 8             MR. HAYDEN:  Exhibit P2889, please.

 9        Q.   The next document Mr. Ristanic is a report dated the 29th of

10     September, 1992, signed by Simeon Cuturic.  Before you met with OTP

11     representatives last month, had you seen this document before?

12        A.   Yes.  I saw it at a trial in Brcko when the lawyer of the

13     suspects, I think there were three of them, showed me this document then

14     and asked me whether I knew about it.  I didn't know about it then.  I've

15     had it since.  He gave me a photocopy, and then you showed it to me

16     afterwards as well.

17        Q.   Having had an opportunity to review it, then, and putting to one

18     side for a moment the comments that are attributed to you in this report,

19     does the information about events in Brcko in May 1992 generally conform

20     with your recollection of events in Brcko in May 1992?

21        A.   Well, I'd have to read this all over again, but I think that it's

22     that more or less, apart from the personal impressions of the gentleman

23     who wrote this.

24        Q.   The report refers to a statement by you which was "300 people

25     were killed," but you were not upset because of that, and you had said

Page 16732

 1     there were much larger graves in Prijedor.  Do you know how Mr. Cuturic

 2     obtained these statements attributed to you?

 3        A.   I don't know that man.  I don't remember talking to him at all.

 4     I don't think I talked to him, because he's an intelligence officer from

 5     the Eastern Bosnia Corps, a low-ranking one.  I think I never talked to

 6     him.  The name and surname is a very memorable one, and I'd have to

 7     remember a person by that name.

 8             As for the entire statement, it should be read from the beginning

 9     to the end to see what the objective of this report is, what its

10     objective is and what its purpose is I think that we as the civilian

11     authorities were mentioned sort of in passing.  As for me not being

12     upset, it has to do with things that did not really affect me directly,

13     but I don't remember ever seeing that person, and for me stating this

14     kind of thing publicly, never, never.

15        Q.   You mentioned before there was a member of parliament that would

16     be in contact with the republican-level leaders.  Who was that person?

17        A.   Dr. Milenko Vojinovic.

18        Q.   Did he have a nickname?

19        A.   Yes.  He had a nickname.  Everybody called him Beli.  From

20     childhood he was known as Beli, and then when he became a doctor, he was

21     known as Dr. Beli.

22        Q.   To your knowledge, how frequent was his contact with

23     republican-level leaders?

24        A.   I don't know.  I don't think that he had frequent contacts with

25     them.  It was not easy to travel.  In any case, I don't think that he had

Page 16733

 1     daily contacts, but those contacts were less frequent.

 2        Q.   Again to your knowledge, who were his main interlocutors in Pale?

 3        A.   I think he had most contacts with President Krajisnik, the

 4     president of the Assembly, because he was his boss as the speaker of the

 5     parliament and with somebody in the government.  He spoke to them on the

 6     telephone, and when he was in Pale, I don't know who he spoke to.

 7        Q.   Returning to the events in Brcko in May 1992, did these events

 8     attract any media attention?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   What type of media attention?

11        A.   A lot of attention was paid to the events in view of the

12     propaganda that was launched from Brcko Rahic and Brcko Ravno

13     municipalities.  There was always something out on the radio.  There was

14     always something in the press.  We were bombarded by information about

15     several thousands people being killed in Brcko.  The figures started

16     as -- as being 12.000, then several thousand.  At the end of the war it

17     was 3.000, and today it is as many as it was.  All that attracted a lot

18     of attention from journalists from all over the world.  Journalist -- the

19     journalists started coming to Brcko, and our position was that those

20     people should be allowed to speak the truth, to convey the true message

21     to the general public.

22             The presence of Reuters journalists who were there from the

23     beginning of the war and who recorded some events in the town, and we saw

24     the footage here, say that there were no bans on the presence of

25     journalists in town.

Page 16734

 1             MR. HAYDEN:  65 ter 08513, please.

 2        Q.   The next document, Mr. Ristanic, is an article that appeared in

 3     the "Nas Glas" newspaper on the 9th of October, 1992.  It refers to a

 4     press conference that you gave.  Once it's up on our screens, I'll ask

 5     you to confirm that you've had a chance to review this in preparation for

 6     your testimony?

 7        A.   Yes.  I saw this the first time when you showed it to me.

 8        Q.   Does it accurately reflect the stated views you provide -- you

 9     provided publicly at this time, October 1992?

10        A.   Yes.  Yes.

11        Q.   There's a reference in this article to dozens of foreign

12     journalists who you said they would come out from around the world about

13     an "alleged concentration camp for Muslims."  Is that a reference to the

14     media attention we were just discussing before this document came -- came

15     on the screen?

16        A.   Yes.  Yes.

17             MR. HAYDEN:  I tender that into evidence.

18             JUDGE KWON:  What has been our practice in terms of translation?

19     If the Defence is happy with partial translation, we'll admit it.

20             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes.  As I understand, this is just a translation

21     of the newspaper article pertaining to this and the other parts of the

22     newspaper about other issues were not translated.  That's perfectly

23     sensible with us.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We'll admit this.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P3029, Your Honours.

Page 16735

 1             MR. HAYDEN:  I'll call up a video-clip, 4170.  We'll have to move

 2     into Sanction.  This is a news item from the end of September 1992 on TV

 3     Serbia News 2.  I believe the interpreters have a transcript provided to

 4     them.  The number is 65 ter 40170.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "The leader of Bosnian Serbs has

 7     today dismissed the American accusations that his forces have massacred

 8     3.000 Muslims as completely ungrounded.  Karadzic has called on the

 9     American President George Bush to release the actual evidence for his

10     accusations.  State Department representative Richard Boucher announced

11     that Washington had new witnesses who corroborate reports of about 3.000

12     Muslims having been killed at a camp in nearby Brcko in May and June.

13     Along with his appeal to President Bush to disclose the evidence for such

14     allegations, Karadzic has stated that 200 Serb civilians, victims of last

15     week's massacre committed by Muslims, were buried this morning, but the

16     State Department has not so much as taken notice of it."

17             MR. HAYDEN:

18        Q.   Were you able to follow that clip, Mr. Ristanic?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Is that a reference to the same international media attention

21     that was given to events in Brcko in May and June 1992, discussed a few

22     moments ago?

23        A.   I believe so, yes.

24             MR. HAYDEN:  I tender that clip, Mr. President.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  That will be admitted.

Page 16736

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P3030, Your Honours.

 2             MR. HAYDEN:

 3        Q.   Mr. Ristanic, what steps did the War Presidency or the leadership

 4     of the SDS take to investigate the crimes that were committed at Luka

 5     camp in the months and years immediately after it was established?

 6        A.   At that time when the crimes happened and immediately thereafter,

 7     the victims were identified, the places where they were buried and the

 8     number of those who were buried and then we waited for the conditions to

 9     be right to prosecute the perpetrators.  That's all we did.

10        Q.   Was anybody prosecuted or punished for the crimes committed at

11     Luka in the months or years immediately after it was established?

12        A.   At the relevant time in 1992 and 1993, it was impossible.  Nobody

13     dared prosecute anybody.

14                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

15             MR. HAYDEN:  No further questions, Mr. President.  With respect

16     to the associated exhibits, there are none to tender.  I would just note

17     one has already been admitted and 65 ter 16793 is, in fact, page 7 of

18     P1607.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Unless the parties are of different opinion, the

20     Chamber is minded to rise for today given the time, starting your

21     cross-examination tomorrow.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I agree.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

24             MR. TIEGER:  First of all, Your Honour, I do need a couple of

25     minutes to address a scheduling issue the Court will want to hear about

Page 16737

 1     but, secondly, I would ask in light of the circumstances that the

 2     cross-examination documents be released so we could have an opportunity

 3     to review them over the weekend.  It would be helpful to everybody.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  That could be done.  I take it there's no

 5     problem.

 6             MR. ROBINSON:  No problem.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you very much.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

10             MR TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  There were four witnesses

11     scheduled for next week, as the Court knows it's --

12             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

13             MR. TIEGER:  Sure.

14                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.  Would you like Mr. Ristanic to

16     be --

17             MR TIEGER:  Yes, of course he can be excused.  I'm sorry.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Mr. Ristanic, please have a nice weekend.  I

19     will see you on Monday.  Probably you must have heard this as well, but

20     you're not supposed to discuss with anybody about your testimony while

21     you are giving testimony here.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23                           [The witness stands down]

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

25             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  As mentioned, four

Page 16738

 1     witnesses were scheduled for next week.  It's obvious now that the last

 2     witness will not -- that testimony will not commence.  Moreover, with

 3     respect to the third scheduled witness, Mr. Panic, we calculate that in

 4     order to complete Mr. Panic's evidence, it would require three additional

 5     court sessions, either after the first three sessions of the day or on

 6     Friday or a combination of both.  We are indeed keen to complete

 7     Mr. Panic's evidence, not -- in part because of significant scheduling

 8     issues which would arise in connection with the Prosecutor who is calling

 9     that witness at the same time.  So we would certainly welcome the Court's

10     intervention with that additional time.

11             JUDGE KWON:  That means Mr. Panic is here already.

12             MR. TIEGER:  No.  He -- the reason I raise it now is that

13     Mr. Panic is scheduled to travel on Sunday, so I wanted a resolution of

14     this issue one way or another.  I do note that without the additional

15     sessions, Mr. Panic's evidence would not be completed, and indeed if --

16     if there were no sessions at all, I calculate that his testimony would

17     probably not even commence.

18             So I present that issue to the Chamber.  As mentioned, we would

19     be quite keen to complete his evidence if possible.  However, I think

20     none of us would wish to bring him unnecessarily.  So it's now in the

21     hands of the Chamber.  If you could please advise us by the end of the

22     day in light of his imminent travel so we can act accordingly one way or

23     another.

24             JUDGE KWON:  We'll do so during the course of today.

25             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 16739

 1             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

 3             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, to the extent that our

 4     presences are important we would prefer that they not bring that witness

 5     because we don't even think his testimony would begin and it would put a

 6     lot of pressure on us with the military expert who we have a lot of

 7     questions for.  So we prefer, instead of being under this time pressure,

 8     where time cannot be extended, that the witness simply come in August.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  We'll take that into account as well.

10             9.00 on Monday morning.

11                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.19 p.m.,

12                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 18th day

13                           of July 2011, at 9.00 a.m.