1 Wednesday, 24 August 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.27 p.m.
5 JUDGE KWON: Good afternoon, everyone.
6 Mr. Tieger, I'm not sure whether he was introduced before or not.
7 Could you introduce your colleague again.
8 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour. Seated to my immediate right is
9 Mr. Amir Zec.
10 JUDGE KWON: Good afternoon.
11 Before we start hearing the next witness today, I have a few
12 procedural matters to address.
13 First, in order to ensure that the trial is conducted
14 expeditiously, the Chamber monitors the pace of the proceedings on an
15 ongoing basis using the time statistics provided by the Registry. At the
16 end of July 2011, the Prosecution has used more than 160 hours of the 300
17 hours allocated for the presentation of its case. From the courtesy copy
18 of the tentative list of witnesses who remain to be called by -- by the
19 Prosecution, which was communicated yesterday, the Chamber observes that
20 the Prosecution has called 93 witnesses in addition to one Chamber
21 witness thus far and intends to call an additional 118 witnesses.
22 At this stage, the Chamber would, therefore, like the Prosecution
23 to address, in writing and by close of business on 26 August 2011, how it
24 foresees that it will be able to call its total number of witnesses while
25 keeping within the 300-hour limit imposed at the beginning of trial.
1 Second, the Chamber refers to the Prosecution motion for leave to
2 amend its witness and exhibit list filed confidentially on 21st of July,
3 2011 and associated filings. The Chamber requires the Prosecution, by
4 close of business on 26 August 2011, again, to file confidentially a
5 further written submission which outlines: One, why there is good cause
6 for the addition of KDZ-600 at this stage of the proceedings. In
7 answering that question, the Prosecution should identify whether or not
8 there are other witnesses who are ready -- who are already on the witness
9 list who will be testifying about the same or similar events and why
10 KDZ-600's proposed testimony is considered unique.
11 Number two, explain in more detail how the unfolding of the
12 accused's case suddenly promoted the Prosecution to consider calling
13 KDZ-600 as a witness and whether the relevance of her evidence only
14 recently became apparent.
15 I should have said prompted instead of promoted.
16 Third, the Chamber will now issue an oral ruling with regard to
17 the accused's motion for reclassification of ex parte appendix KDZ-490
18 and KDZ-492 protective measures, filed on 22nd August, 2011.
19 The Chamber notes the Prosecution's response filed yesterday, not
20 opposing the motion. The Chamber hereby grants the motion and orders
21 that the confidential and ex parte appendix to the Prosecution's response
22 to Karadzic's motion for modification of delayed disclosure,
23 Witness KDZ-490 and KDZ-492 filed on 9th of March, 2010 be disclosed to
24 the accused and reclassified as confidential.
25 Finally, the accused's request not on sit on Monday is denied,
1 and the hearing will therefore proceed on Monday morning as scheduled.
2 Unless there are any matters to be raised, we'll bring in the
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, with leave I have a correction to
5 the exhibit list. On 22nd August 2011 65 ter 90253 was admitted as
6 Exhibit P3183 under seal. The Registry would correct this exhibit number
7 to read as Exhibit P3195 under seal. Thank you, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
9 Mr. Tieger, who is your next witness?
10 MR. TIEGER: The next witness, Mr. President, is Dzevad Gusic.
11 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I be of assistance,
13 Your Excellencies, concerning the number of witnesses? I believe the
14 Prosecution has a problem. They don't have a case. That's why they're
15 trying to snow me under quantity instead of quality.
16 JUDGE KWON: That is an utterly improper comment at the moment.
17 Let's bring in the witness.
18 [The witness entered court]
19 WITNESS: DZEVAD GUSIC
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 JUDGE KWON: Good afternoon, Mr. Gusic. If you could take the
22 solemn declaration, please.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon. I solemnly declare
24 that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
25 JUDGE KWON: Thank you very much. Thank you. Please make
1 yourself comfortable.
2 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger.
4 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
5 Examination by Mr. Tieger:
6 Q. Sir, can we begin by having you state your full name for the
7 record, please.
8 A. [Interpretation] My name is Dzevad Gusic.
9 Q. Thank you. Mr. Gusic, is it correct that you provided statements
10 to the Office of the Prosecutor on the 15th of February, 1999, and also
11 on the 2nd of May, 2003, and that you also testified before this Tribunal
12 on the 5th and 6th of May, 2003, in that instance in the case of
13 Prosecutor v. Slobodan Milosevic?
14 A. All that is correct.
15 Q. And, Mr. Gusic, are you also aware that a statement, a so-called
16 amalgamated statement, containing portions of your previous testimony and
17 statements has been assembled and is reflected in 65 ter 90264?
18 MR. TIEGER: Perhaps we could call that up.
19 THE REGISTRAR: It appears that the document's not released,
20 Mr. Tieger.
21 MR. TIEGER: Thank you.
22 Q. Mr. Gusic, the question was simply whether you were aware that an
23 amalgamated statement containing portions of your previous testimony and
24 statements was prepared.
25 A. Yes, I know that.
1 Q. First of all, have you had the opportunity to review your
2 previous statements and your testimony in the Milosevic case?
3 A. I have. I have had the opportunity to review it.
4 Q. And have you also had the opportunity to review the amalgamated
6 A. I have had the opportunity to review it.
7 Q. I understand that you wish to make certain clarifications to the
8 statement. Let me address those quickly. First of all, your statement
9 refers to 65 ter 11734, which is essentially a resume or CV. Perhaps it
10 would be useful to update that, and if you could simply tell the Chamber
11 quickly what you are doing -- what your work is now.
12 A. I'm currently working as chef de cabinet of the deputy state
13 secretary for finance of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
14 Q. Thank you. At page 3 of your amalgamated statement, paragraph 5,
15 it states that up until the 2 of March, 1992, that the SDA president was
16 Mirsad Kavazbasic. I understand you wanted to change -- clarify that
17 date from the 2nd of March to another date?
18 A. That's right. Some mistake must have occurred. It was not the
19 2nd of March but the 20th of March, 1992. That's when I became president
20 of the SDA for Bratunac municipality.
21 Q. Thank you. That appears to be a simple typo since there's at
22 least one other reference in your statement to that time period that is
23 consistent with what you've just said.
24 I also wanted to direct your attention to paragraph 12, which is
25 on page 9, which is a continuation of something you said at page 8.
1 There you refer to something that you were told by an official of the
2 SDA, who said to you that Karadzic on one occasion had said to him words
3 to the effect, "We'll have to split up. There's no other way. That will
4 be the best thing." And you identified that person at page 9 as
5 Osman Brka. And I understand that your clarification has to do with a
6 subsequent discussion you had after your testimony in the Milosevic case
7 about whether Mr. Brka was -- had any doubts that he was speaking to
8 Mr. Karadzic or someone else at that time.
9 A. After I testified in the Milosevic case, I had occasion to speak
10 again to Mr. Brka, and I told him that in my evidence and in my
11 statements I provided the information that we had discussed at one point,
12 namely that he had spoken to Radovan Karadzic, and when Karadzic said
13 that Bosnia-Herzegovina should be divided, he said he couldn't really
14 remember that it was Karadzic. It may have been another official. He
15 did not sound very confident, so I'm saying this because I feel it's
16 necessary to make a correction there.
17 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Gusic. Next I wanted to direct your
18 attention to page 25, paragraph 42. Your statement says there, and
19 that's taken from the 1999 ICTY statement:
20 "It was amazing that during these times every local Serb,
21 without exception, changed overnight into having a total dislike for
23 And I understand you wanted to clarify that, Mr. Gusic.
24 A. I wanted to make it clearer, make a small correction. When I
25 made that statement in 1999, I believe that through a combination of
1 circumstances it was not recorded very precisely. It cannot be said that
2 every Serb hated Muslims. Rather, the case was that the general attitude
3 of Serbs towards Muslims has changed, and some Serbs individually had a
4 strong hatred towards Muslims that they did not even bother to hide. So
5 it was the general attitude of Serbs that changed. The Serbs were
6 obsessed the policy of Greater Serbia and in speaking with their Muslim
7 neighbours, they always emphasised that Serbs were a great people, a
8 great nation, that it has to be the leading nation in the state, that
9 they must have a large state like Russia, that they have
10 Slobodan Milosevic and his Yugoslav People's Army who will protect them,
11 that they all must live in one state. And in these discussions when one
12 of their peers wanted to put to them counter-arguments, namely that what
13 they were saying was a nationalist idea, that it would lead to nothing
14 good, that there would be a rise in ethnic tensions, that there would be
15 a rift between peoples and hatred, whatever a Bosniak would put to them
16 such arguments, the Serbs would label him as an enemy of the Serb people
17 and would view him with mistrust and misgivings.
18 Q. Thank you, sir. Next I wanted to turn your attention to page 39
19 of the amalgamated statement, which is part of a paragraph 73, which is a
20 long paragraph. At the bottom of page 39 you were asked about certain
21 period, and you said:
22 "Well, this was carried out --" that is the period of mid -- or
23 mid-1992, in that case July 1992, and you said:
24 "Well, this was carried out when the occupation of Bratunac was
25 carried out, when the ethnic cleansing of villages was carried out and
1 when thousands of civilians were killed, thousands of Muslim civilians in
3 And I wanted to ask you in connection with your clarifications
4 whether the term "thousands" was literally true and what figure you
5 considered accurate and how you came to an understanding of that figure.
6 A. Well, the total of Muslims killed in Bratunac was 3.500 in less
7 than two months. Foreign military units from Serbia and local police
8 forces -- I mean Serb police forces in Bratunac killed about 1.000 Muslim
9 civilians in less than one month, including women, the elderly, the
10 infirm, children.
11 That figure is not final. According to information available
12 currently, the total of civilian fatalities in the first months of war,
13 and that means that we have exact personal details of each victim, is 670
14 casualties of war against -- amongst civilians. That is not a final
15 figure, as I said. There are many families who are still searching for
16 their near and dear and their bodies, and there are also many people not
17 from Bratunac who happened to be in Bratunac at the time on whom we don't
18 have complete information. So it's only an estimate.
19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Gusic. And two more quick corrections that appear
20 to be typos. First, paragraph 73, page 37. You are recorded as stating:
21 "I think that as regards -- I think that as regards those
22 activities it's not even worth mentioning in view of the fact that
23 Bratunac was a peaceful place, calm place, by offered in resistance on
24 the 17th of April."
25 And I understand you wanted to change something that seems
1 apparent, "that offered no resistance on the 17th of April." Is that
3 A. On the 17th of April, 1992, foreign military units from Serbia
4 entered Bratunac and together with local military and police forces and
5 the Territorial Defence, they occupied Bratunac, took over the government
6 and the power in Bratunac without a single gunshot fired and started
7 ethnic cleansing and killings. But on the 17th of April, 1992, not a
8 single Bosniak fired a single bullet.
9 Q. Thank you. And finally at page 44, paragraph 77, again it's
10 obviously a typo, I think. There's a reference to a question about
11 roadblocks in the village of Glogova and here it says Branca and Pervani,
12 and I understand that instead of Branca it should say Hranca.
13 A. It should be H-r-a-n-c-a, Hranca.
14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Gusic. And with those clarifications, can you
15 confirm that the amalgamated statement accurately reflects your prior
16 statements, that those statements were accurate and truthful and that if
17 asked about the same issues you would provide the same information here
18 in court?
19 A. The amalgamated statement is accurate, and even if I had to make
20 a new one before the Court today, I would give the same statement. I
21 would probably not be able to formulate everything in the same words, but
22 the essence would be the same.
23 Q. Thank you, Mr. Gusic.
24 MR. TIEGER: I would tender 90264, Mr. President.
25 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President. I would ask that
1 paragraph 12, which repeats the version of contact with Dr. Karadzic by
2 Osman Brka be stricken from the amalgamated statement.
3 First of all, I want to thank the witness for making that
4 clarification. I think that's very commendable that he did that. And
5 now that it's in that state, it has absolutely no probative value. It's
6 completely -- it's double hearsay, something Osman Brka told him, and the
7 second part of the hearsay is completely unsourced because we don't know
8 who it was who made that statement. I realise hearsay is admissible, but
9 there's a limit to it and I think this exceeds that limit. So I would
10 ask that paragraph 12 just be deleted from the amalgamated statement and
11 it be admitted without that issue being part of the testimony.
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Can I hear from you, Mr. Tieger.
13 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Mr. President. I agree with and appreciate
14 Mr. Robinson's compliments to the witness, but would I say that, first of
15 all, this has been adequately clarified by the correction, and it
16 continues to have some utility to the Court, because the information in
17 its totality now is that a SDA official at the time had a discussion with
18 an SDS official. I think -- I see the Court nodding. I see you take my
20 JUDGE KWON: Would you like to reply, Mr. Robinson. With such
21 clarification, there should be no harm to the accused, no prejudice,
22 because it may be another official. Why do we have to strike out?
23 MR. ROBINSON: Because it would be completely unsafe for you to
24 use that for any purpose at this trial. How can we confront that, an
25 unnamed SDS official making some statement? If you gave it any weight
1 whatsoever I think it would be completely unsafe. And when you have
2 something that has no probative value, zero, then I think you should
3 exclude it.
4 MR. TIEGER: I don't think we need to dwell on this too much. It
5 doesn't no probative value. There's considerable evidence in the case
6 elsewhere about calls for division. This is one more element which the
7 court can consider in its assessment of the climate at the time and the
8 positions taken by the SDS.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE BAIRD: Mr. Tieger, the -- the Chamber would like some
11 assistance. Now, we have evidence from the witness quite clearly that
12 Brka is now saying that he was not sure that it was Karadzic. Do you
13 agree with that?
14 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE BAIRD: Well, could one say that the entire foundation by
16 this revelation has been shaken?
17 MR. TIEGER: No, I don't -- I wouldn't look at it that way, Your
18 Honour. I would look at it in the following fashion --
19 JUDGE BAIRD: Yes.
20 MR. TIEGER: -- and that is the witness had a conversation with a
21 particular person --
22 JUDGE BAIRD: Yes.
23 MR. TIEGER: -- who related in -- a discussion that person had
24 both about content and about the identity of the participant. In a
25 subsequent discussion, that source didn't recant the content but just
1 expressed doubt about the specific source of the information as being
2 Dr. Karadzic in contrast to any other SDS -- to another SDS official. So
3 I would say, in fact, that the foundation to a certain -- to a large
4 extent was supported and confirmed and to another -- on another matter
5 very specific aspect of what was related then was undercut. That's what
6 the witness told us about. So there are various elements, as I
7 understand it, to that previous discussion. The source of that
8 information confirmed what I would say was the bulk of it, but also gave
9 cause to doubt that the specific source of that information was a
10 particular SDS official, that is, Dr. Karadzic. So I would say you have
11 a considerable degree of confirmation and some degree of undeniable doubt
12 about the -- about whether it was Dr. Karadzic in particular.
13 JUDGE BAIRD: Thank you very much.
14 Mr. Robinson, we should like very much to hear you in rely to
16 MR. ROBINSON: Yes. Thank you very much, Judge Baird.
17 Think about this: Would you admit a statement -- I don't think
18 even the Prosecution would offer this, but if they did, some witness came
19 and said, "I was told by a friend of mine that he had a conversation with
20 an unknown or unnamed SDS official, we don't know when it took place, we
21 don't know where it took place we don't know who else was present, we
22 don't know the context, but here is what was said." I don't think that
23 would even be offered in such a trial, let alone that you would admit
24 such evidence. And certainly it would be unfair to rely on it in any way
25 whatsoever in your judgement. So I think this is the same situation.
1 The witness gave some evidence that at one time had probative value
2 because the speaker was identified as President Karadzic. It's no longer
3 that situation. Now examining the new situation, it's clearly an
4 inadmissible hearsay that is so far removed and so unreliable that it
5 shouldn't even be considered by the Chamber and given any weight, and
6 when something has no probative value, then it shouldn't be admitted in
7 the first place. Thank you.
8 JUDGE BAIRD: Thank you very much.
9 JUDGE KWON: We'll stop here. Usually the Chamber is not
10 involved in the business of analysing the probative value in the middle
11 of -- middle of a hearing and strike some part of evidence. Let me
12 consult my colleagues.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber will issue a ruling in relation to the
15 request from the -- from the accused to strike this part, i.e., para 12.
16 Subject to that, this statement will be admitted into evidence.
17 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P3196, Your Honours.
18 MR. TIEGER: And Mr. President --
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger.
20 MR. TIEGER: -- particularly in light of the Court's awareness of
21 overlooking a summary previously, I will now read with the Court's
22 permission a summary of the evidence.
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes. I think it's important for the purpose of the
25 MR. TIEGER: And, Mr. Gusic, as indicated, this is simply a brief
1 summary of your evidence. It doesn't purport to be evidence itself.
2 It's the statement that you provided. Nor does it presume to attempt to
3 cover everything you said. And now the summary.
4 Following the multi-party elections in 1990, the witness was a
5 member of the Municipal Assembly on behalf of the SDA in Bratunac
6 municipality from approximately March 20th, 1992, to 17 April 1992. He
7 served as president of the SDA in Bratunac following the departure of the
8 then president. In those capacities, the witness met and dealt with
9 various SDS political figures in Bratunac, including the president of the
10 SDS in Bratunac, Miroslav Deronjic.
11 Although it had won more than 50 per cent of the vote in
12 Bratunac, the SDA agreed to SDS demands for a two-thirds majority
13 requirement for decisions in the Assembly, which gave the SDS greater
14 control in the Assembly than its electoral numbers, and also agreed to a
15 50/50 power-sharing arrangement. The SDA accepted the 50/50 principle in
16 order to avoid blockade of the work in the Assembly.
17 During 1991 as Serb delegates in the republic Assembly were
18 purportedly demanding division of Bosnia, the SDS in Bratunac was
19 establishing parallel structures, including a Crisis Staff, a separate
20 Assembly, and a separate Serb municipality. At the same time, Serbian
21 nationalist attitudes and actions began to increase and be more visible.
22 The witness also received information that the SDS and the JNA
23 were involved in arming and training of local Serb civilians.
24 Additionally, the witness observed that the JNA deployed heavy artillery
25 weapons and mortars at locations around Ljubovija in Serbia, with their
1 barrels pointed toward inhabited settlements in Bratunac.
2 In early April 1992, Miroslav Deronjic and the SDS called a
3 meeting at which he informed the SDA of the SDS intent to divide the
4 police into Muslim and Serb police. Deronjic said that if the -- said
5 that the Serb people felt they were in a minority and unit direct threat
6 from the Muslims and threatened that if the demand was not met, Muslims
7 would disappear. Deronjic said that Radovan Karadzic was placing
8 Deronjic under pressure to get this division underway. Deronjic often
9 spoke of meetings with Karadzic, and the witness understood from him that
10 he was under Karadzic's control.
11 The SDA agreed to these demands in order to maintain the peace
12 and order, and the Serb police was eventually created. On 17 April 1992,
13 the witness received information that some units entered Bratunac, and he
14 observed a military unit stationed around the Fontana Hotel. Later that
15 day, Deronjic told the witness and other SDA officials to attend a
16 meeting in the Fontana Hotel with Deronjic and officers of the
17 Serbian Army. At the meeting, the witness and others were told that
18 Bratunac was a Serb municipality and that Serbian laws would be applied.
19 The witness was told to compile a list of Muslim nationalists. In light
20 of these circumstances and knowing what had happened in other
21 municipalities throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina, the witness decided to
22 leave the area as soon as possible and managed to do so. He later
23 received information about the fate of Bratunac Muslims, including
24 widespread expulsions, killings, and destruction of mosques.
25 Q. Mr. Gusic, although your statement is now in evidence, I have a
1 few additional questions for you that I'd like to ask at this time.
2 First, I noted that at paragraph 14 of your statement, and that's
3 on page 9, you said that:
4 "To illustrate how the climate had changed amongst the people,
5 cafes in Bratunac started to be used for Serb nationalist meetings where
6 Serbs would gather singing Chetnik songs. Posters and slogans began to
7 appear on walls which insulted Muslims and promoted Serb nationalism."
8 You go on to say:
9 "The SDS said that no co-existence was possible and that Bratunac
10 was a Serb municipality."
11 I wanted to ask you if you could just provide any examples and
12 tell the Court what those posters and slogans that began to appear, what
13 kind of things they said.
14 A. After the first multi-party elections were held, the SDS
15 intensified its propaganda, pursuing a policy of a Greater Serbia. That
16 propaganda reached such heights that SDS activists wrote different
17 slogans in different places, highly derogatory as far as Bosniaks were
18 concerned, Muslims as they were called at the time. These slogans were:
19 "This is Serbia, Greater Serbia." "Muslims, Balijas, Turks move out,
20 you're going to be slaughtered." The names of Slobodan Milosevic,
21 Radovan Karadzic. "There is no Bosnia any more." Then the names of some
22 Chetnik commanders from the Second World War and so on.
23 These slogans were written in streets, on traffic signs, on
24 public buildings, houses, auxiliary buildings, cars, and elsewhere.
25 Q. Thank you. In your -- your statement reflects, as indicated
1 earlier, the establishment by the SDS of parallel structures in Bosnia,
2 including the demand for division of the police in April into a Muslim
3 and Serb police, and also reflects calls for division of Bosnia more
4 generally at the republic level. I wanted to ask you, before the demand
5 for division of the police in April, had there been discussion by
6 Deronjic or other SDS officials about the ethnic division of Bratunac
7 or -- or the republic?
8 A. Sometime, perhaps even in the first half of 1991, you could often
9 hear from the political representatives of the Serbs that they wished to
10 live in a Greater Serbia, that Bosnia had to be divided. At the time, we
11 understood this to be mere rhetoric, a wish. We were so naive that we
12 thought this was some kind of fantasy. However, when I took over as
13 president of the SDA for the municipality of Bratunac on the 20th of
14 March, I had several meetings with the president of the SDS of Bratunac,
15 Miroslav Deronjic, and his associates.
16 I was surprised at these meetings. They openly spoke about the
17 division of Bosnia. They proposed that Bosnia be divided. I was taken
18 aback by these ideas. Actually, this idea to divide up Bratunac
19 specifically. I was taken aback by these proposals and ideas, and I
20 asked why would we embark on such a process. Miroslav Deronjic was a
21 very skilful politician. As for extremely nationalist and radical ideas,
22 he knew how to present them as something totally natural, something that
23 should be taken into account.
24 He said quite simply, "You know what? The Serbs need to keep
25 their own Serbdom, their own history, their own tradition, their own
1 culture. They should live separately from the Muslim people if they want
2 to keep all of that. If they want to do that, they can only do it by
3 separating from the Muslim people."
4 That was the first time I took it a bit more seriously.
5 Actually, quite seriously. Then I said to him, "Well, all right. I'm
6 taken aback by these ideas. You cannot do it just off the cuff. There
7 have to be certain plans and projects for implementing such ideas." And
8 he said, "We in the SDS have plans that were prepared. I even have
9 certain instructions how to act with regard to these questions."
10 I suggested something to him, because this was a major idea. I
11 could not decide on this, and I could not state my views in any
12 appropriate manner. I suggested that we bring together some 15 or 20
13 directors of major companies. Of course, this was a multi-ethnic group.
14 There were Serbs and Muslims there. And then I suggested that he present
15 that idea of his to these directors as well so that we hear their views
16 as well, and he accepted that. He said, "Why not? It should be said.
17 Why would everyone not know that? We're not doing thing
19 So we organised this meeting there were about 15 or 20 Serbs and
20 Muslims who were directors of major companies, and he said that the Serbs
21 should live separately, that there are plans, that Bratunac should be
22 divided, that Bosnia should be divided and so on.
23 Q. Thank you, Mr. Gusic, and although this may be corrected in the
24 transcript later I just want to clarify the transcript records you as
25 saying that you said the Serbs need to keep their own Serbdom, their own
1 history. They should live separate from the Muslim people, et cetera.
2 Was that you or was that Deronjic?
3 A. No. It was Miroslav Deronjic who said that to us, the
4 representatives of the SDA, to us, the Bosniaks, Muslims, as
5 representatives of the municipality. Maybe I was not very specific when
7 Q. That may have been just a glitch in the transcript, but it's
8 clear now. Thank you.
9 Mr. Gusic, at page 24 of your statement, you discuss aspects of
10 what you understood about the relationship between Mr. Deronjic and
11 Mr. Karadzic based, in part, on what you heard from Deronjic, including
12 statements that he was under the control of Karadzic, and you indicate
13 that you understood that he was Karadzic's right hand and had wide powers
14 in terms of activity and could invoke Karadzic's name and say Karadzic
15 ordered it if Deronjic couldn't otherwise convince the SDA through his
16 political skills, and I would just ask you to elaborate to the
17 Trial Chamber on what you were trying to convey here about what you
18 understood to be Deronjic's relationship to Karadzic and what it was
19 Deronjic said to you or you otherwise observed that led you to this
21 A. First of all, I'd like to say that when Miroslav Deronjic was
22 elected president of the SDS in the second half of 1990, the Serbs of
23 Bratunac were saying that there were more deserving candidates and more
24 renowned Serbs than Deronjic. They were saying that some Nikolic should
25 be president of the SDS but that Radovan Karadzic directly intervened and
1 made sure that Miroslav Deronjic would be elected president of the SDS
2 for the municipality of Bratunac. That is what I heard Serbs saying at
3 the time. And we discussed that because we were very interested in who
4 the president of the party would be.
5 Deronjic was a highly disciplined member of the SDS. I'm talking
6 about my own impression now. My impression was that he was very faithful
7 to his president, Radovan Karadzic. He said that Radovan Karadzic had
8 great trust in Miroslav Deronjic. Deronjic was particularly active, and
9 he persisted in having the police in Bratunac divided. We from the SDA
10 did not want to divide the police. We said to him that that would be
11 insane, that dividing the police into a Serb and Muslim police would mean
12 that there would be even more separation between Muslims and Bosniaks and
13 that this would lead to greater tensions and that it would have very bad
14 consequences. He said that he can understand us but that we need to
15 understand him, that he received orders from the top of the SDS signed by
16 his president, Karadzic, and that he had to work on reaching an agreement
17 to divide the police. If we did not agree to this and if we would not
18 divide the police in Bratunac into the Serb police and the Muslim police,
19 he could not guarantee peace and security in that area.
20 He said to us that in Bijeljina the SDA and the SDS did not
21 co-operate well, did not reach proper agreements and foreign military
22 units from Serbia entered the area, occupied Bijeljina, and committed
23 violence in that municipality. He wouldn't want that to happen in
24 Bratunac. He appealed to us saying that we should be reasonable, and we
25 said all right. If we agree to this division of the police, can you
1 guarantee to us that there would be peace and safety in the territory of
2 the municipality of Bratunac and that foreign military forces from Serbia
3 would not enter Bratunac as they entered Bijeljina. He said that if we
4 divide the police, his president, Radovan Karadzic, would be pleased and
5 he would let us continue our discussions, and he guaranteed that we would
6 have peace and security in the municipality of Bratunac, that we should
7 be reasonable and work to that end.
8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Gusic. In your statement you also describe some
9 of the circumstances extant when you became president of the SDA in March
10 of 1992, including the arming and training of Serbs, the increased
11 tensions and intimidation, the deployment of JNA weaponry, calls for
12 division, and I wanted to ask you if those circumstances caused you
13 concern and if you undertook any efforts to go to Muslim areas or
14 villages to discuss or see about the possibility of defending against
15 attack and, if so, what result?
16 A. When I became president of the SDA for the municipality of
17 Bratunac on the 20th of March, the JNA and the SDS had already armed the
18 Serb people by then. They were saying that they had more weapons, that
19 there were Serbs in Bratunac, and according to the census from 1991,
20 there were 11.500 Serbs in Bratunac.
21 The SDS, on orders from the top leadership of the SDS, illegally
22 established the Serb municipality of Bratunac. Also on orders, they
23 established a war Crisis Staff for the municipality of Bratunac and all
24 the villages in the municipality of Bratunac. We had corroborated
25 information that the JNA and the SDS in certain locations in the
1 municipality of Bratunac were conducting the training of Serb civilians
2 to use weapons and to wage war afterwards. I was so concerned about
3 that, and the first thing I did when I became the president of the SDA
4 was to go and visit some neighbourhoods where there were Muslims as a
5 majority. I wanted to have an open discussion about the complex security
6 situation and the danger of the armed Serb people there and the JNA.
7 I visited several places, and I talked to several activists of
8 the SDA and ordinary citizens. In some of these places -- actually, the
9 first thing I noticed was that the Muslims in these neighbourhoods were
10 terrified. They lived in great fear and uncertainty. They were highly
12 At some of these places, when I asked about the possibility of us
13 organising ourselves and putting up a resistance if we were to be
14 attacked by Serb forces, if the Serb forces were to attack a particular
15 village or a particular neighbourhood, the answer I would get was that
16 the Muslims of that neighbourhood are honourable and honest people, that
17 they are not to be blamed for anything, that they are not guilty of
18 anything, that they have been living a good life together with their Serb
19 neighbours and that they did not believe that their Serb neighbours would
20 want to deal with them in a brutal way.
21 In some other places, again when I asked that we be organised and
22 put up a resistance if there was an attack, another answer I received was
23 that the Serbs were armed, that they had the JNA that at the time was one
24 of the major armed forces in Europe, and that it was insane to put up any
25 kind of resistance and that putting up a resistance would equal a
1 catastrophe since they had hunting guns and pistols and this is no way to
2 put up a resistance.
3 I notice that had most Muslims in the municipality of Bratunac
4 first of all seemed to believe that there would be no large-scale
5 conflicts, and even if that were to happen, we were on the threshold of
6 the 21st Century and there is an international community. It would
7 intervene very quickly. That was a delusion.
8 I wish to say that during these talks there were certain
9 individuals in all of these neighbourhoods and in all of these villages
10 who had an inkling of what would happen and who insisted that they
11 organise themselves and that they put up a resistance. Therefore, they
12 asked for weapons, and they tried to do something in that way. However,
13 the Serb Democratic Party in the municipality of Bratunac, through their
14 infrastructure and through their war Crisis Staffs for the municipality
15 of Bratunac and for all the villages and through Serb policemen and
16 officials in the municipality of Bratunac they kept Bratunac monitored,
17 closely monitors -- monitored. So all activities in that direction just
18 remained a mere attempt and nothing was actually done.
19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Gusic. I wanted to now direct your attention to
20 several documents if I may and I'll try to do that as efficiently as
21 possible. First in section with the references today and your
22 amalgamated statement to the establishment of an SDS Crisis Staff in
23 Bratunac, if I could direct your attention quickly to three documents.
24 The first two are -- would be in 65 ter 00590, first at page 83 of the
25 English and page 70 through 71 in the B/C/S.
1 The document doesn't bear a date at the time but it can easily be
2 contextually dated through the reference in the third paragraph to "a
3 meeting held last night, October 18th, 1991, in Sarajevo."
4 And if could I direct your attention, Mr. Gusic, to the next page
5 in -- well -- yeah, that's fine. I think you'll see that there. You'll
6 see a reference to election of the Crisis Staff, and the notation was
7 agreed that only a part of the Crisis Staff should be elected tonight.
8 And then if I could direct your attention next - and as I said
9 I'll show you three documents in connection with this - to page 85 of the
10 English and page 72 of the B/C/S. This is the minutes of a meeting from
11 October 26, 1991, headed "Minutes of the first meeting of the Crisis
13 And finally if I could direct your attention next to
14 65 ter 00603, page 8 of the English and page 9 of the B/C/S. This is a
15 meeting held on 25 October 1991. And if we see item 3 at the agenda:
16 "Appointment of the Crisis Staff in the Bratunac municipality
17 with the purpose of implementing protective measures for the Serbian
19 And if we go quickly to the next page in English and the next
20 page in B/C/S, we see another reference to the Crisis Staff and some of
21 its members.
22 Mr. Gusic, I simply wanted to ask you whether those references
23 are consistent with the information in your amalgamated statement and the
24 statement you provided today about the establishment of an SDS Crisis
25 Staff in the Bratunac municipality in 1991.
1 A. Essentially, yes.
2 MR. TIEGER: And, Mr. President, I would tender the pages
3 containing those particular minutes and meetings.
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
5 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 00590 will be Exhibit P3197 and
6 65 ter number 00603 will be Exhibit P3198.
7 MR. TIEGER:
8 Q. Mr. Gusic, you referred on a couple of occasions today to the
9 organisation at local levels and information from the local level within
10 Bratunac and within the SDS structure. I just wanted to turn your
11 attention quickly to 65 ter 00590, page 68 of the English and page 58 of
12 the B/C/S.
13 Although this says -- I'm sorry, that's the incorrect reference.
14 My apologies. It should be page 72 of the English and page 61 of the
15 B/C/S. Thank you.
16 And this is a meeting held on March 8th, 1990, although as we'll
17 see from other sessions because it's the 16th session, it appears to be
18 1991. We'll introduce another session earlier that will indicate that
19 chronology, so I believe that's a typo. We can see it in the -- in the
20 session of the meetings, although I realise it accurately reflects what
21 was written there.
22 In any event, Mr. Gusic, I want to direct your attention to item
23 1 of the agenda where there's a discussion about the realisation of the
24 elections and mention of the fact that board members would be in charge
25 of running approximately 15 to 20 houses, and then a discussion about the
1 existing local boards and the organisation of citizens.
2 Was that approach to the structure of the SDS, that is members of
3 the local boards being responsible for --
4 A. I'm not getting interpretation.
5 Q. Okay. I don't know where the interpretation stopped, Mr. Gusic,
6 but if -- I just wanted to direct your attention to item 1 of the agenda
7 and ask whether the reference to local board members being responsible or
8 in charge of approximately 15 to 20 houses was consistent with your
9 observations and understanding at the time of the organisational level of
10 the SDS in Bratunac.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MR. TIEGER: I tender those pages, Your Honour, 72 through 73 of
14 the English and --
15 JUDGE KWON: So that those pages will be added to P3197?
16 MR. TIEGER: That's fine.
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
18 MR. TIEGER:
19 Q. Mr. Gusic, again you discuss at pages 8 and 9 and discussed again
20 today the establishment of parallel structures in Bratunac in 1991 and
21 1992. I wanted to direct your attention quickly to 65 ter 00742.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just, in view of the very
23 short time I have for cross-examination, does Mr. Tieger stand by what he
24 said, that his document -- this document is from 1990 or 1991? It's --
25 it's an important difference, 1990 or 1991.
1 MR. TIEGER: Well, the -- what we see in the entirety of the
2 collection that is available here is, for example, that the 14th session
3 of the SDS Municipal Board was held on January 22nd 1991. This, the 15th
4 session is then listed as February -- which I will also be turning our
5 attention to, as 15 -- as February 21st, 1990. This one is March 8th,
6 1990. And we have a reference earlier to the 11th session being held on
7 December 17, 1990. Those are the factors that led me to the comment I
8 made, and at the moment I can offer no more than that. That -- that
9 document is also available to the accused as it was to us.
10 JUDGE KWON: Yes. I take it that document was disclosed to the
12 MR. TIEGER: Of course.
13 JUDGE KWON: But I note the time. You need some -- how much more
14 would you need to conclude you are in-chief examination?
15 MR. TIEGER: Well, if the Court wanted to break now, it wouldn't
16 be -- I think it's probably another ten minutes, I would estimate. Maybe
17 I'm being conservative on that, but I'd say about that.
18 JUDGE KWON: Why don't we break now for 25 minutes. We'll resume
19 at five past 4.00.
20 --- Recess taken at 3.41 p.m.
21 --- On resuming at 4.09 p.m.
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger.
23 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
24 Q. Mr. Gusic, before we recessed, we were looking at 65 ter 00742.
25 I'd like to direct your attention to three entries in that exhibit. So,
1 first is down to page 2 of the English, page 4 of the B/C/S. The page on
2 the screen now refers to the Serbian Municipal Assembly of Bratunac. And
3 if we turn to page 2, that's a reflection of the minutes of the first
4 Serbian Assembly held on 30 December 1991.
5 If we could turn to page 3, then, of the English, page 6 of the
6 B/C/S. Which reflect the minutes of the first regular session of the
7 Serbian Municipal Assembly of Bratunac held at 1700 hours on 13 February
8 1992. And finally if we could turn to page 6 of the English, page 10 of
9 the B/C/S, which reflect the minutes from the meeting of the Serbian
10 Municipal Assembly of Bratunac held starting at 1900 hours on 28 February
12 Mr. Gusic, do these meetings in this document -- is this
13 consistent with -- sorry, we just want to correct. That was page 9 of
14 the B/C/S. I don't know if the witness had a chance to see the date of
15 February 28. Thank you.
16 Mr. Gusic, I simply wanted to ask you whether these entries are
17 consistent with your understanding at the time of the establishment of
18 parallel structures by the SDS in Bratunac municipality, including a
19 separate Assembly.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MR. TIEGER: And I tender those entries, Mr. President. I
23 believe that's 1 through -- I can work it out with the registrar. I
24 think that's 1 through 7 of the English and about 2 through 10 of the
1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. That will be admitted.
2 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P3199, Your Honours.
3 MR. TIEGER:
4 Q. Mr. Gusic, you also referred in your statement and of course
5 today to aspects of the relationship between the Bratunac SDS and the
6 republic level, in particular, Mr. Karadzic. If I could turn your
7 attention to three entries from 65 ter 00590. The first at page 53 of
8 the English and page 42 of the B/C/S. These are the minutes of the 11th
9 session of the Municipal Board held on December 17, 1990. And if could I
10 direct your attention to the bottom of the page in English, and this page
11 and the next page in B/C/S, which states after -- after a quick listing
12 of what some people said indicates that the board accepted our agreement
13 with one vote against it by a certain individual who disagreed with it.
14 If the SDA rejects this variant as well, the board concluded that our
15 Main Board should urgently be informed about everything.
16 And then if I could next turn your attention to page 68 of the
17 English and page 58 of the B/C/S. These are the minutes of the 15th
18 session, so four sessions later, as we discussed, of the Municipal Board
19 of the SDS of Bratunac. As we discussed before, this is indicated as the
20 date of February 21st, 1990, but I think contextually it appears to be
21 1991 after the session we just looked at, and if you look at the first
22 entry -- could we have the next page in B/C/S, please. And if you look
23 at the first entry after the list of the agenda items following point 1,
24 Mr. Deronjic, President of the Municipal Board, informed and communicated
25 the information to the board. He informed the board about all opinions
1 of the president of the party as well as of the leadership of the party
2 regarding the declaration by the SDA and that is where the opinion of the
3 party is negative. Finally if I could turn your attention next to page
4 74 of the English and page 63 of the B/C/S.
5 This is the 17th session of the Municipal Board of the SDS of
6 Bratunac held on April 12th, 1991. And if we go to the next page in
7 B/C/S and look toward the bottom of the page in English. Following a
8 discussion of regional redrawing of Municipal borders which is being
9 carried out in Banja Luka, et cetera, the reference that our Presidency
10 should urgently meet with Karadzic following all those questions.
11 Mr. Gusic, I wanted to ask you whether these references to
12 informing the Main Board, advising of the opinions of Karadzic, meeting
13 with Karadzic and so on are consistent with your understanding of the
14 hierarchical link and contacts with the republic level by the Bratunac
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I ask something. I wonder,
17 would it be a good idea if Mr. Tieger could tell us whether this witness
18 attended these meetings and whether he's best placed to comment on the
19 meetings of the SDS if he did not attend them. At that time, after all,
20 they were his political opponents.
21 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic --
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe it would be better to
23 discuss it with someone else.
24 JUDGE KWON: Your intervention is not proper at the moment. It's
25 clear from the -- Mr. Tieger's question what he's asking the witness to
1 answer. Your points can be explored during your cross-examination.
2 Yes, Mr. Tieger.
3 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 Q. Mr. Gusic, if you remember the question, it was whether these
5 references, and I summarised some of them, are consistent with your
6 understanding of the contacts between the republic level and the Bratunac
7 SDS and the hierarchical link -- the hierarchical relationship.
8 A. They are. They are completely consistent with what I've been
9 saying about the links between the Municipal Board of the
10 Serbian Democratic Party and its president, Deronjic, and
11 President Karadzic at the helm of the top leadership.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MR. TIEGER: I tender the -- those documents, Your Honour,
14 reflecting those meetings.
15 JUDGE KWON: Those will be again added to Exhibit P3197.
16 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
17 Q. Mr. Gusic -- can we call up 65 ter 30190. Mr. -- while that's
18 being called up, Mr. Gusic, you referred in your amalgamated statement at
19 page 19 to an event in Kravica in which two Muslims were killed and two
20 wounded and you further explained in your statement about the arrival of
21 republic level officials including Mr. Koljevic and Mr. Ganic. I'd ask
22 you to look at this document which is a conversation between
23 Momcilo Krajisnik and Radovan Karadzic on the 4th of September, 1991.
24 And if you could look in particular toward the bottom of the page in both
25 versions where it states:
1 "Did you know that shots were fired up in.
2 "I heard two dead weren't there.
3 "Three. I think the third one's dead. Two are seriously
5 And Krajisnik says, "all Muslims."
6 Karadzic: "All Muslims, but they attacked the Serbian village of
8 Krajisnik: "I'm not sure if that's true. You know what I said
9 this morning, please?"
10 Karadzic: "Yes?"
11 Krajisnik: "Cengic called me."
12 And it goes on. Have you seen that document before, Mr. Gusic.
13 Are these references to the incident at Kravica that you described in
14 your -- or that you discussed in your amalgamated statement?
15 A. Yes. Yes. It's the same date and the same action.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 MR. TIEGER: I'd ask that to be MFI'd, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson.
19 MR. ROBINSON: No objection.
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes. That will be marked for identification.
21 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI P3200, Your Honours.
22 MR. TIEGER: Thank you.
23 Q. And finally, Mr. Gusic -- if we could call up Mr. Registrar
24 65 ter 07028.
25 Mr. Gusic, you spoke at page 10 of your statement about the
1 removal of weapons from the local depot or arsenal removal by the JNA and
2 placing them under JNA control. If I could ask you to look at this
3 document which is dated 14 May 1990. It's from General Adzic, and it's a
4 document of the Federal Secretariat For National Defence, Main Staff of
5 the SFRJ Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and it is an order in
6 order to provide the safe storage and safe-keeping of the
7 Territorial Defence weapons and ammunition and in keeping with the tasks
8 laid out by the federal secretary. And then it refers to organising the
9 takeover storage and safekeeping of the complete stock of the TO weapons
10 and ammunition in the JNA supply dumps and so on.
11 Item 2 refers to: They should be stored and safe-guarded in TO
12 depots guarded by JNA units. The TO staffs and TO units are to take out
13 weapons and ammunition required for the execution of planned activities
14 with the approval of the military district commands and so on.
15 Mr. Gusic, is this document a reflection of or consistent with
16 the removal of the weaponry and controlling them by the JNA that you
17 spoke about in your statement?
18 A. Yes, that's the document, and it's consistent with what I've
20 MR. TIEGER: Thank you. I will tender this document,
21 Your Honour.
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes, that will be admitted.
23 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P3201, Your Honours.
24 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President. That concludes the
1 JUDGE KWON: And you're tendering associate exhibits.
2 MR. TIEGER: Yes.
3 JUDGE KWON: Three of them.
4 MR. TIEGER: That's correct.
5 JUDGE KWON: Are there any objections?
6 MR. ROBINSON: No, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE KWON: They will be all admitted. Shall we give the
9 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. 65 ter number 11734 will be
10 Exhibit P3203. 65 ter number 11733 will be Exhibit P3204, and
11 65 ter number 00749 will be Exhibit P3205.
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Good afternoon,
14 Your Excellencies. Good afternoon to everyone.
15 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
16 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Gusic.
17 A. Good afternoon.
18 Q. Before I begin, I would like to address the Chamber for a few
19 minutes with your leave.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This witness is simultaneously a
21 witness and a participant in important events. His statement contains 78
22 paragraphs. There are many paragraphs and many statements from other
23 statements that are of interest to me. There are many general statements
24 that he repeated earlier today and many documents. I have less than half
25 a minute per item. If we take into account 78 paragraphs and everything
1 else that's important, I have less time than I need even to phrase a
2 question. Yesterday, I omitted a lot. I did not have time to proffer
3 the judgement that convicted the witness to ten years' imprisonment, and
4 I didn't have time for many articles from the media and many other
5 things, and I will have to deal with it through a bar table motion,
6 including the judgement convicting the witness to ten years' in prison.
7 But what's important to me today and what was important with the witness
8 yesterday was the question of their credibility.
9 Please take into account the time limitations and this rhythm
10 that is lethal. You see how many things Mr. Tieger is introducing
11 through this witness that the witness is not even aware of, things
12 discussed at meetings that he didn't attend.
13 Please consider the possibility of at least giving me the whole
14 day today.
15 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, in reaching the conclusion as to how
16 much time you should have for your cross-examination with a specific
17 witness, the Chamber considers all the relevant matters, taking into
18 account a number of factors including the nature and the -- the scope of
19 the witness's testimony, the amount of the -- or volume of the witness's
20 92 ter evidence, the number of documents the Prosecution is going to use
21 with a witness, the time estimate for the Prosecution's cross --
22 examination-in-chief, as well as your request.
23 I do not agree with you that you haven't had enough time to
24 cross-examine the witnesses. This is particularly so in light of the
25 fact that you have spent much of your time on exploring irrelevant or
1 marginally relevant issues. As emphasised several times before, you need
2 to focus your cross-examination on important issues and make your best
3 point first.
4 Indeed, some witnesses may make general statements, but that does
5 not mean that you should explore every single general statement a witness
6 may make. The point of cross-examination is to pick certain parts of
7 evidence led in chief that can be challenged. Again, I say again that
8 you should focus on challenging the evidence of the witness in certain
9 areas, preferably where you have best material to do so. So I would like
10 you to refrain from making these statements about you being disadvantaged
11 by having a short time.
12 Let us move on. The Chamber at this moment is not minded to
13 extend the time allowed to you at the moment. Let us move on.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. There's just one more
15 thing I have to say. It would be easy for me to follow your instructions
16 if that would mean that what I did not have time to challenge cannot
17 constitute a basis for a conviction. I cannot make a selection if
18 anything that I do not deal with will serve as a basis for a conviction.
19 That is how all my predecessors defended themselves, and I know that many
20 innocent men were convicted and found guilty.
21 JUDGE KWON: That is an improper comment at the moment. I would
22 like you to consult your legal advisor how to conduct your
23 cross-examination in a limited time which in the opinion of the Chamber
24 is sufficient for your cross-examination. Please move on.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just to remind you of one more
1 thing. The Prosecution used more time that they had originally said they
2 would be using, so please reconsider that as well, and I conclude on that
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Mr. Gusic, do you know that I negotiated with Mr. Izetbegovic,
6 rarely with Mr. Cengic, and never with Mr. Brka?
7 A. Yes. I have been informed that you talked and negotiated with
8 Mr. Izetbegovic and his associates. As for Brka, I came here to testify,
9 to state the facts. Since I learned only later from Brka that he did not
10 discuss that subject with you, I made that correction. Brka said to me,
11 "I'm not sure that I talked to Karadzic." It was Kalinic. Perhaps you
12 didn't understand me sufficiently.
13 Q. Please, whenever I put a specific question, yes or no answers
14 will do.
15 Did you know that the first man who presented the idea on the
16 division of Bosnia-Herzegovina was Mr. Izetbegovic and that he presented
17 that idea to us at a meeting in order to persuade us to agree to the
18 secession of Bosnia? You can just say yes or no.
19 A. This is the first time I hear of this.
20 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Did you know that the idea of the
21 cantonisation of Bosnia was first launched by Vecernji List, a daily in
22 Zagreb, and the first Serb reaction was by Professor Plavsic? She said
23 that it was an interesting idea and should be looked into. All of that
24 was in the media.
25 A. I did not know about that.
1 Q. Thank you. Did you commit a war crime during this war?
2 A. No, did I not.
3 Q. Thank you. Are you on lists of potential war criminals that
4 should be prosecuted?
5 A. When I testified in the Milosevic case, that was the first time
6 that I found out that I have purportedly been accused of war crimes and
7 there is a certain publication in the institutions of Republika Srpska.
8 I told him then that it was the first time I heard of it. As for myself,
9 no legal organ of Republika Srpska never informed me officially, either
10 in writing or orally, that I was on some list or that there is any kind
11 of criminal complaint. That is something I saw in the media later. In
12 addition to myself, there are about 3.000 other Bosniak Muslims against
13 whom similar criminal reports were filed.
14 Q. Thank you. You are among these 3.000 that are suspects; right?
15 A. I can only speak for myself. I saw what is written there, and
16 that is pure fabrication. It has nothing do did with the truth.
17 Q. Thank you. For the sake of speed, I'm now just going to put to
18 you what I know, what I found out about how things developed, and it will
19 be sufficient for you to say that you agree or disagree. Later on when
20 we display documents, we may discuss this in greater detail.
21 Is it correct that the president of the municipality was the
22 number one man of the municipality?
23 A. The president of the municipality in 1991 and 1992; right?
24 Q. In 1990, after the elections.
25 A. After the elections. In a way, yes. The president of the
1 municipality and the President of the Executive Board, those were two
2 parallel positions as it were in the municipality.
3 Q. Are you trying to say that the president of the municipality was
4 not more important than the President of the Executive Board?
5 A. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that these two positions
6 were parallel positions as far as the municipality of Bratunac was
7 concerned and when these positions were being allocated.
8 Q. What about the chief of the public security station and the
9 commander of the public security station? Are these two parallel
10 positions as well when there was this power sharing agreement?
11 A. Well, perhaps they are not parallel. They don't have the same
12 weight, the chief and the commander as far as powers and authorities are
13 concerned, tasks and responsibilities, and so on.
14 Q. This is what I put to you: That the president of the
15 municipality is more important than the president of the executive board
16 and that Nijaz Dubicic was president of the municipality and that the
17 president of the executive was Rodoljub Djukanovic. The first one was a
18 Muslim, the second one was a Serb, and also in the police, the chief of
19 the public security station was Nesim Muratovic, a Muslim, and the
20 commander of the public security station was Nikola Mandic, a Serb, and
21 that these four -- that is regards these four positions, both of those
22 that are more important went to the Muslims; right?
23 A. The Muslims did hold those positions but we should speak about
24 the entire power-sharing arrangement at the time and the conditions that
25 led to this kind of sharing. If you wish, I can speak at greater length.
1 When things are taken out of context this way and when conclusions are
2 made out of context it looks a bit different and basically things were a
3 bit different than that. You know that we had the first multi-party
4 elections and that at these elections the SDA won. Out of 60 seats in
5 the Municipal Assembly, they had 31 or 51 per cent, then the Serb
6 Democratic Party had 24 members of the Assembly or 40 per cent, and the
7 other parties headed by SDP had 8 per cent of the vote. So in Bratunac
8 there were 21.500 Bosniaks and 11.500 Serbs. There are 2 times more
9 Bosniaks than Serbs however the outcome of the elections was far more in
10 favour of the Bosniaks than of others because of the way in which the
11 vote was carried out and because of the statute that was changed during
12 the previous term of the previous municipality and when the results were
13 known, when we looked at the old municipality of Bratunac, when allegedly
14 they wanted to make their government official and to end on that note,
15 the activists of the SDS managed to lobby the then Assemblymen to change
16 the statute at the last session. Until then a simple majority was
17 sufficient. This was rushed onto the agenda and then a two-third
18 majority became a prerequisite so that is how the statute was changed.
19 When we constituted the new Assembly after the first multi-party
20 elections, there was this ultimatum from the SDS: Are we going to share
21 power half/half, or are we simply not going to constitute an Assembly.
22 We wanted to share power on the basis of the outcome of the elections
23 52/48 per cent. However, they did not agree to this kind of power
24 sharing. They set a precondition. It's either going to be 50/50 or
25 there will simply be no municipality of Bratunac municipal assembly that
1 will be constituted.
2 Q. Thank you. Let us now correct something that is inaccurate in
3 the examination-in-chief. It is not correct that you, the SDA, succumbed
4 to pressures of the Serbs and the SDS to have a two-thirds majority
5 introduced rather than a simple majority. Rather, it was the old
6 Communist Municipal Assembly of the municipality of Bratunac that changed
7 the statute; right?
8 A. It was the old Assembly that changed the statute.
9 Q. Thank you, thank you.
10 A. But that was against the republican regulations that were in
11 force at the time. We asked for that to be changed and to be brought
12 into accord with republican regulations. I do apologise for speaking
13 this way. We wanted to bring this in line with republican regulations.
14 However, there was no will on the part of the SDS.
15 Q. Why would there be any will on the part of the SDS when the
16 statute was more favourable for them. However that statute was changed
17 by the old socialist Communist Assembly; is that correct?
18 A. That is correct.
19 Q. Thank you. That is just one of the inaccuracies there.
20 Secondly, in terms of numbers, was it 50/50?
21 A. Let me go back to this inaccuracy. I have to correct you. As
22 you had put it, that is what I said and that is what my statement says,
23 namely that it was the old Assembly that changed the statute. I don't
24 see why that should be called an inaccuracy that needs to be corrected.
25 Q. Thank you. Maybe Mr. Tieger interpreted you in such a way. When
1 he was interpreting what you were saying, he said that you had succumbed
2 to the SDS, namely that a two-third majority would be required. But that
3 was done when the SDS was not in power. However, we clarified that. Now
4 I'm asking you the following: In terms of the number of officials that
5 were involved was the power sharing arrangement 50/50?
6 A. Well, you know how power's shared. You don't share everything
7 immediately; you share certain positions. An agreement was reached then
8 with regard to specify positions and that was divided on a 50/50 basis.
9 Q. Thank you. And within these four main offices or positions,
10 two -- the two main ones were in the hands of the SDA and the two less
11 important ones the SDS?
12 A. We cannot single them out. We have to look at the entire
13 package. If we look at the entire package, the President of the
14 Municipality of Bratunac was a Muslim. The President of the Executive
15 Board was a Serb. The chief of police was a Muslim. The police
16 commander was a Serb. Also there was the Executive Board, that at the
17 time had five positions. Three positions belonged to Serbs and two to
18 Bosniaks. Later on we asked for a sixth position to be introduced so
19 that it be balanced out to 3/3 and that is ultimately what was agreed
20 upon. There was one more position in the Executive Board, and it was
21 again 3/3. So if you look at the entire package, then it was a 50/50
22 power-sharing arrangement.
23 Q. Thank you. Was that the way it was in the times of socialism
24 that if the president of the municipality was a Muslim or a Serb that the
25 President of the Executive Board would be from the ranks of the other
1 ethnic community? Is this a good custom that existed irrespective of
2 political system?
3 A. You know full well that that is the way it functioned. One
4 position would be given to one ethnic group and the other to another
5 ethnic group and if there was a third one then they would get a third
7 Q. Thank you. It is clear that you and I know what we are talking
8 about, but we are putting this to the Trial Chamber here. They are not
9 familiar with our political system, and therefore we have to explain it
10 to them.
11 Mr. Gusic, I am going to tell you about what I know and what I
12 learned about what happened in your environment, and you will just tell
13 me whether you agree or not and then later on we're going to have a
14 broader discussion, if necessary, on the basis of the documents that I'm
15 going to show. So do you know that in Sarajevo on the 31st of March a
16 decision was passed on the establishment of the Patriotic League and on
17 the 30th of April it was actually established and Bratunac had a
18 Municipal Staff and a unit of the Patriotic League?
19 A. The 30th of March which year?
20 Q. 1991.
21 A. 1991.
22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please
23 speak into the microphone. We can barely hear him.
24 JUDGE KWON: It's impossible to follow at that speed. And why
25 don't you ask questions one by one. Because of the overlap the
1 interpreters were not able to hear you. So what was your answer as to
2 the establishment of the Patriotic League in Sarajevo on 31st of March,
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That is one of the results of the
5 rush that I have to have and the second thing I've been saying is that
6 this affects my health directly.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. My question was do you know the SDA --
9 JUDGE KWON: Please refrain from making inappropriate comments.
10 So what was your answer to the establishment of the Patriotic League on
11 31st of March 1991.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't remember that this
13 was on the 30th of March 1991.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Thank you. And do you know that this decision was carried out on
16 the 30th of April and the Patriotic League was established on the 30th of
18 A. I don't know. I really don't know.
19 Q. Thank you. And do you know that on the 10th or 11th of June the
20 main political staff was established, the Council for the Defence of
21 Muslims within the SDA in the police centre, Dom Milicija, and they
22 remained as the political leadership of the Patriotic League?
23 A. I don't know whether that's correct. I know that there were some
24 meetings devoted to that topic, but whether that actually happened, I
25 really don't know.
1 Q. Thank you. And do you know that Sefer Halilovic, until the end
2 of September 1991, in 104 or 103 municipalities actually by the end of
3 September 90 something and at the end of the year in 103 municipalities
4 he established municipal staffs of the Patriotic League, regional staffs
5 of the Patriotic League and units as well, detachments.
6 A. I simply cannot believe any such thing. Perhaps there was some
7 mention of that. Perhaps there were some discussions to that effect or
8 perhaps somebody wrote that on some piece of paper, but that something
9 like that existed in practice in real life I really do not believe that.
10 At least not in the area of the municipality of Bratunac where I was a
11 local politician at the time on behalf of the SDA and part of the
12 Executive Board. I was not in a position to go to all of these meetings
13 I was not invited to all of these meetings but that does not mean that I
14 don't know some things that I did not express interest at the time in
15 certain developments that were underway. And as for this firm
16 organisation of the Patriotic League, well, had that been the case, what
17 happened in all these municipalities could not have happened.
18 Q. Thank you. You are saying it was not a solid organisation, this
19 Patriotic League, but it -- did it exist?
20 A. Maybe some people were daydreaming about it or trying to
21 establish something on paper but I know that in Bratunac nothing like
22 that happened in practice.
23 Q. Thank you. Who was the commander of the Territorial Defence
24 after the first elections?
25 A. The commander of the Territorial Defence after the first
1 elections, I think it was Dzemo Hodzic.
2 Q. Was he a Muslim?
3 A. Of course he is.
4 Q. Thank you. I'm going to now present a picture of this peaceful
5 Bratunac. Let us just go back to this document that was admitted a
6 moment ago, Adzic's document. Is it the case that you were shown a
7 document dated 14 May 1990 about the seizing of TO weapons and their
8 placement in the JNA depot?
9 A. I was shown an order to remove those weapons. I think it was an
11 Q. Thank you. Do you know what kind of position I held on that
13 A. 14 May 1990. I don't know about you, and I don't know if the SDS
14 party was established at that time. Did you say May 1990?
15 Q. 14 May 1990, the order that you discussed concerning the removal
16 of TO weapons signed by General Adzic.
17 A. I don't know which position you held on 14 May 1990. I really
18 don't know. I don't even know exactly when the SDS party was
19 established, so how could I know which position you occupied at the time?
20 Q. Thank you. You did not know about me on the 14 of May; correct?
21 You had not heard of me at that point.
22 A. Do you know how long ago that was? Twenty-one years.
23 Q. Mr. Gusic, the Serbian Democratic Party announced its
24 establishment on the 3rd of July and was established, founded on the 12th
25 of July, and this order dates back to two months before, and the Serbian
1 Democratic Party did not contribute in any way to the removal of those
2 weapons because it did not exist.
3 A. Of course if it did not exist it could not have contributed,
4 which doesn't mean that there had been no plans whatsoever to remove
5 those weapons, some designs for the future.
6 Q. Do you know that or is this your speculation?
7 A. To be quite honest, based on everything that happened and looking
8 back with the wisdom of hindsight, I think nothing happened by accident.
9 Absolutely nothing happened by accident. And if you put together all the
10 pieces of that mosaic, you can draw a conclusion -- draw some conclusions
11 with a pretty great degree of certainty including that removal of TO
12 weapons and putting them in a JNA depot. You see what's interesting
13 here, try to make an analysis of which municipalities the JNA chose to
14 remove TO weapons from.
15 Q. Do you know that on 14 May 1990 the HDZ already existed in
16 Croatia and Tudjman was already in power? It was back in April even?
17 A. I really don't know. I don't know exactly which month or which
19 Q. On the 27th of March, 1990, was the announcement made that the
20 SDA would be established and it was established a bit later?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And on the 27th of March, 1990, Izetbegovic held a press
23 conference announcing that it would be established.
24 A. I don't know the exact date, but I suppose it's so. If it was
25 established in end May, it had to be announced a bit earlier. That
1 sounds logical.
2 Q. Mr. Gusic, were the plans of the nonexisting SDS the thing that
3 made the JNA remove those weapons, or was it the plans of the already
4 existing SDA that forced the JNA to react?
5 A. You're asking me a leading question. You're trying to make me
6 say something that would suit you, but I'm going to speak of things only
7 as I see them and to try to substantiate what I'm saying.
8 At that time we had certain information. There were certain
9 people who were saying that Serbia, the Yugoslav People's Army, have
10 great designs about creating Greater Serbia.
11 Q. Sir, we have no time for political debate.
12 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Gusic, the accused, in his cross-examination, is
13 entitled to put you a leading question. However, you are free to answer
14 in the manner you like to.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. We will set that subject aside. Let me ask you, because
19 Mr. Tieger confirmed today on your behalf that Bratunac was peaceful and
20 quiet and there were no problems until Serbs suddenly went on a rampage,
21 is it the case that in July 1991, Muslim extremists were burning Serbian
22 flags and went -- used them as a toilet?
23 A. You mean 1991?
24 Q. Just answer whatever you think is right.
25 A. I don't think so. I would have known. It would have been
1 discussed at all sorts of meetings if it had happened. Public debates
2 would have been organised.
3 Q. Thank you. Is it true that in end August, a representative of
4 the JNA came to remove the files of military conscripts? He was refused,
5 and then in mid-August a unit came to do the same, however, the Muslims
6 gathered in front of the municipal building and prevented him from --
7 prevented the JNA from taking those files?
8 A. First of all, SDS President Deronjic came to the national defence
9 secretariat together with other representatives of the party asking for
10 those files. Of course, the national defence secretary had no authority.
11 He was not authorised to turn over such important documentation to the
12 SDS. They threatened him. They said they would throw him out of the
13 window. He called the police, and the police put guards at his office.
14 Later on SDS activists organised a rally. They gathered a lot of
15 people --
16 Q. Wait. Wait. We'll come to that. Let's take things in sequence.
17 First of all, one or two representatives of the JNA came. Are you trying
18 to say it was not a representative of the JNA, that it was Deronjic?
19 A. We have to place things in their own time-frame. I am talking
20 about the day when a unit of the JNA came to remove that documentation.
21 I think you are talking about the day before when one of JNA officers
22 came to ask for the documentation.
23 Q. A few days before a JNA representative came to take what belonged
24 rightfully to the Federal Secretariat for National Defence. All military
25 documentation belonged to the national Secretariat for Defence.
1 A. I don't know if anybody came a few days earlier to ask for that
2 documentation. Let's assume that that's right. The Secretary for
3 National Defence reports to the command in Tuzla and nobody from that
4 command in Tuzla came to ask him for that documentation, and he was not
5 authorised to turn it over to somebody from outside, from -- from another
7 Q. You mean to say this JNA representative did not come from the
8 corps in Tuzla?
9 A. No, he didn't.
10 Q. That Secretary for National Defence, was he also a Muslim?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And the commander of the Territorial Defence was also a Muslim?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Is it true that not long after that the SDS flag was burnt again
15 and Serbs in Kravica were told and threatened that their houses would be
16 burnt down, and in a display of power, people were driving by their
17 houses with rifles protruding from the windows?
18 A. Especially that last thing is not true. It's impossible that
19 Muslims would have driven by Serb houses displaying their long barrels,
20 absolute impossible.
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger.
22 MR. TIEGER: I would say it's a purposely misleading question to
23 say, "Is it true that not long after that the SDS flag was burned
24 again ...," when the witness failed to confirm that proposition when put
25 to him by Dr. Karadzic. So Dr. Karadzic was trying to get it in the back
1 door by building it into a question and hoping it will somehow pass
3 JUDGE KWON: However, it was answered, fortunately.
4 Let us move on, Mr. Karadzic.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Did a major crisis break out in mid-September when heads rolled?
8 A. When SDS activists set up an ambush in a hamlet near Kravica and
9 shot at a car with four Bosniaks in it, wounding two, of course that
10 started a crisis, tensions spread anxiety among people.
11 Q. Thank you. Let's deal with the set of different subjects. I
12 would like to call up 1D3876.
13 Mr. Gusic, this is the command of the 17th Corps, the security
14 section, based in Tuzla. That is December 1991. It says cross-section
15 of paramilitary organisations in the area of responsibility of the
16 7th Corps to the south of the Sava River. That corps had a zone of
17 responsibility that stretched into Croatia. Do you see the heading?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. Could we look at page 3 -- or, rather, let's not, not to waste
20 time. Let's look at page 4. In fact, let's look at page 3 and then 4 to
21 see that they are observing Serbs and Muslims and Croats alike and making
23 Concerning the area of Derventa, most of the paramilitary units
24 are those of the HDZ. Can we see page 4. This says that the SDA -- in
25 fact, they don't have information about the SDA in Derventa, but in
1 Dubocac, the HDZ is distributing weapons, and about the Serbs they
2 enumerate what is being set up and who is being armed. So quite
3 impartially they are keeping tabs on all the three parties. Let's look
4 at page 16 in Serbian. We'll see your municipality there.
5 Please look at this: Paramilitary units of the SDA in the
6 municipality of Zvornik namely in Drinjaca, Sapna, Grabovica, Kamenica
7 and Kozluk, and in Zvornik itself, smaller units up to company strong
8 have been set up in Bratunac, including Glogova, Konjevic Polje, and
9 Repovac. Volunteer SDA units were set up. And then it says according to
10 a plan from the head office of the SDA in Sarajevo, it is envisaged that
11 the military Crisis Staff for --
12 JUDGE KWON: It's very difficult to find where you are reading
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Territory Zvornik, Bratunac, and
15 Srebrenica. [In English] It must be probably in English -- in Serbian
16 16th page, but in English probably 16th or 17th.
17 JUDGE KWON: The English has only five pages.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Oh. That means that not the whole
19 document has been translated. Let's skip Brcko and look for Zvornik,
20 Bratunac and Srebrenica on the next page. Only segments of this have
21 been translated it seems. Can we find in English the sub-heading
22 Zvornik, Bratunac, and Srebrenica. [In English] Could you list please
23 English version.
24 JUDGE KWON: It has only two pages of text and three pages of
25 diagrams, and I can't find that passage.
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Can you see that there is a reference to battalions, 500 in each
3 municipality? The target levels have not been reached, so work needs to
4 be speeded up. SDA-organised units will become part of larger units and
5 will become part of a brigade and that brigade will become part of the
6 division together with the brigade from Foca, Gorazde.
7 A. This needs to be reviewed carefully. You can't just interpret it
8 the way you are doing. This document is dated 30th December 1991.
9 That's just three or four months before the aggression against Bosnia and
10 Herzegovina and the occupation of our municipalities. The Serbs were
11 armed to their teeth.
12 Q. We'll come to that.
13 A. And the JNA was so overwhelmingly strong. I think this document
14 looks to me like something the -- the army made up to justify some of
15 their actions.
16 Q. You will see that they are not sparing the Serbs either. I'm
17 asking you, do you see that the army made an assessment and found out
18 that the SDA head office intends every municipality to have a 500-strong
19 battalion, and they will all be united in a division called the
20 Drina Division. And under number 4 we can see that every municipality
21 formed an illegal Muslim police force consisting of 30 men and the corps
22 personnel are demobilised members of the police stations.
23 A. We need to deal with this with some precision. Look at number 2.
24 The territory of Bratunac and Srebrenica, where it says in the villages
25 Glogova, Konjevic Polje, and Repovac, volunteer SDA units have been set
1 up. I can guarantee that not a single SDA volunteer unit had been
3 Q. Thank you. Let us see what they say about the Serbs, the SDS, in
4 the villages of Podgradac, Kravica, Kajici, Mali Borici, Bljeceva,
5 Greca [phoen], is it, Grabovacka Rijeka, and Polum [phoen] in Bratunac,
6 armed volunteer units were established consisting of locals who have a
7 pro-Chetnik orientation. Can we move on to the next page, 18. Number 2
8 says Skelani, Lijesce, Podravanje, pro-Chetnik volunteer units were
10 Do you know, Mr. Witness, that all Serb units resubordinate
11 themselves to the JNA and volunteered and that the JNA objected to their
12 ideological orientation and that those were the only volunteer units from
13 the Serb side?
14 A. I don't know about that. I can talk about Bratunac, and I can
15 speak with full responsibility and in a qualified manner, as one would
16 say. They established a Crisis Staff for Bratunac and all the
17 settlements there.
18 Q. We'll get to that. Have you heard of Nurif Rizvanovic?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Number 8, this is what the JNA says about him: Nurif Rizvanovic
21 a former junior officer tried as a B and D agent, that's the German
22 Secret Service, now involved in the arming and establishment of armed
23 formations of the SDA in the territory of Bratunac and Srebrenica. Do
24 you know that he was supposed to be commander of the Drina Division.
25 A. As for this Nurif Rizvanovic, I know of him, that he was a former
1 JNA officer, that he ended his professional career in the JNA. Nurif is
2 from Glogova. He was born in Glogova. This is a village in the
3 municipality of Bratunac. Five or 6 kilometres away from the centre of
4 Bratunac. He would usually come to that village in 1991. I think it was
5 the summer of 1991. When he came to his village of Glogova, he came with
6 some information to the effect that the JNA, and he was an officer of
7 that army and he did have that kind of knowledge, well, that the JNA and
8 Serbia are planning to carve out a Greater Serbia at the expense of
9 Bosnia and that the Bosniaks have to be prepared for that unless they
10 intend to see this done at their expense.
11 He also tried to establish some council. I think it was called
12 the Muslim council. He got a few people together, I think, in the
13 village of Glogova and perhaps two or three other local communes. I
14 don't think he had more than 15 or 20 persons who were like-minded. At
15 that time, I think the Belgrade media wrote that he was a triple agent,
16 that he collaborated with the KOS and that he worked for the German
17 intelligence service as well as the Italian intelligence service. So the
18 Muslims of Bratunac, when they found out about this, they didn't believe
19 it. These attempts fell through. And the legal organs of the
20 Municipality of Bratunac banned these activities of his and I believe he
21 had to leave in the beginning of September of 1991 because of that. That
22 is what I have to say about Nurif Rizvanovic in that period of time, that
23 is, that we are discussing now.
24 Q. Thank you. Is it not correct that Nurif Rizvanovic commanded
25 units that were linked to Konjevic Polje, Cerska in this area between
1 Zvornik, Vlasenica, and Bratunac and that he was liquidated by Naser Oric
2 who declared him a traitor?
3 A. I am going to answer that question for you. I know about that, I
4 know something about it. I mean it may be useful to this Court. I
5 remembered just now and you will remember better than me whether this is
6 true or not. Rizvanovic came to our office. I happened to be there and
7 he called this person from the SDA and he said, "come with me." "Where
8 are you going?" "I'm going to Sarajevo. I have a meeting with
9 Radovan Karadzic and Fikret Abdic." So he seemed rather convincing. I
10 had the impression that he really knew you and Abdic and many other
11 important people in Sarajevo. You probably know quite a bit about him.
12 I do too. There are things that I want to say here. When Bratunac was
13 occupied, when over 20.000 Muslims from Bratunac were exterminated from
14 Bratunac, when almost 1.000 civilians were killed and when all of these
15 camps were organised, this was exceptionally cruel torture, and these
16 victims were later exchanged. After two or three months when all these
17 Bosniaks were expelled, many of them were staying in Zivinice, Lukavac,
18 Srebrenik, Tuzla, and so on, Nurif Rizvanovic appeared wanting to
19 organise these people who had been expelled and to return to the
20 municipality of Srebrenica in that way. He managed to bring together
21 about 400 volunteers who were, indeed, motivated at the time in view of
22 everything they had experienced. They wanted to go back to that area.
23 He managed to arm them to a maximum, and he managed to get through the
24 lines, fortified lines from Kalesija to the encircled area of Bratunac --
25 or, rather, Konjevic Polje, Bratunac, Srebrenica. So these 400 armed
1 men, he managed to get them into that encircled area and to continue the
2 fighting that you've been talking about.
3 Q. Thank you. MTS is military equipment; right? So that the
4 interpreters would know what you mean.
5 A. Yes, of course.
6 Q. Thank you. Can we have the last page of this document. Do you
7 see that diagram for Bosnia, the political staff of Bosnia and
8 Herzegovina on the left-hand side and on the right-hand side, the
9 military staff of Bosnia and Herzegovina. In the middle it says the
10 Crisis Staff of the north-east -- of north-eastern Bosnia. This is the
11 diagram that had been completed in 1991, Mr. Gusic. Is it possible that
12 you, as a prominent member of the SDA, and later on an officer of the
13 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina were excluded from these preparations?
14 A. To tell you the truth, the right person to talk to in respect of
15 this diagram is someone who stands behind it, and you probably know who
16 that is, and I'm not going to go into that now. As for my inclusion or
17 exclusion, I can only talk about the municipality of Bratunac.
18 As for the municipality of Bratunac, I said during the
19 introductory questions put to me by the distinguished Prosecutor, I
20 explained some things, namely what the situation was when I became
21 president of the municipality, that the Serb people were armed and that
22 Serb civilians were being trained how to use these weapons, trained by
23 the JNA, the SDS, et cetera. At the time, I wanted to see how prepared
24 the Muslim people were, whether they could do anything to defend
25 themselves if there were to be incursions or an occupation of Bratunac.
1 Before I came to this position at the level of the municipality
2 of Bratunac we had some discussions within the SDA, since we had that
3 information. People were saying something should be organised.
4 Something should be done. We have to defend ourselves. We should not
5 just go with the tide. This should be an advantage of ours. Now, was it
6 the month of February or January? I don't know. I'm not sure.
7 The Municipal Board of the SDA adopted a conclusion or decision
8 to establish -- now, was it a Crisis Staff? I think we called it a staff
9 for the defence of Bratunac. And also a person was appointed commander
10 of that staff. All of that was on paper basically. This person was
11 charged with touring the entire area, finding capable people in each and
12 every village who could form units in their respective villages, and then
13 if there were to be an attack, they should be able to defend themselves.
14 I think that in the beginning some persons were appointed, but
15 about 10 days before Bratunac was occupied, all of these activists, or
16 most of them, realised that there was this danger lurking, and --
17 Q. Thank you. Thank you.
18 A. Please, let me finish. So all of them left, literally all of
19 them, including the one who was in charge of heading that staff. So on
20 the 17th of April, 1992, Bratunac had all of these foreign military units
21 from Serbia enter the area without putting up any resistance whatsoever.
22 Not a single bullet was fired.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted and
24 then we're going to call up another one and then you're going to see that
25 that was not the case.
1 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger.
2 MR. TIEGER: I've been trying to monitor the extent to which this
3 document was or was not illuminated by the information that the witness
4 had and the extent to which it's being -- it was proffered for the
5 purpose of allegedly impeaching something the witness said. It was
6 actually quite confusing to me, and it -- that confusion was magnified by
7 the fact that I couldn't view the document because it's not translated.
8 So I -- I think the thrust of it is such that it would not normally be
9 one that would I object to, but I'm -- by virtue of the way in which it
10 was used and the problems associated with the lack of translation, which,
11 by the way, which was fairly apparent given the disparity between the
12 size of the actual document and the translation itself, I'm just going to
13 leave it in the Chamber's hands. I don't want to make too much of a fuss
14 about it, but it was problematic. Maybe Mr. Robinson can illuminate more
15 about the underlying purpose of tendering the document.
16 JUDGE KWON: I wonder the witness has confirmed anything about
17 this document.
18 Mr. Robinson, can you help us as to the relevance of this
20 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, I'm going to defer to Dr. Karadzic
21 on that point. My only observation would be that enough of discussion
22 about the document would help the Chamber if the document was admitted
23 for the context but, in terms of its actual relevance, I'll leave that to
24 Dr. Karadzic. He's better placed to do that.
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency. This
2 is a document of the JNA that has equidistance, ideological and any other
3 kind, in view of all the parties in Bosnia, and they are quite
4 impartially registering everyone's conduct, that is to say the conduct of
5 all three parties in Bosnia, all three peoples in Bosnia, and the rise in
6 tensions. It is being said here that only the Serbs were organised, and
7 you can see here that everyone is organised, whereas the Serbs consider
8 themselves to be volunteers and they place themselves under the command
9 of the JNA, whereas the Muslims and the Croats have their own commands.
10 I think this is relevant, because, inter alia, this has to do with all of
11 north-eastern Bosnia, including Bratunac and its villages.
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger.
13 MR. TIEGER: Well, that actually didn't quite take the form of
14 the document's relationship to the manner in which it was used with the
15 witness. I will say it seemed to be in the nature of almost a bar table
16 submission. If it were a bar table submission, the Prosecution would be
17 in a position to identify other documentation and evidence contradicting
18 the proposition the JNA was equidistant and ideologically neutral, and
19 that's -- I was going to say, this is another example of something I
20 mentioned earlier that when we are not in a position to, particularly not
21 in a position to respond by way of redirect because we don't have the
22 translation of the document where we should -- the Prosecution or the
23 other party if the situation is reversed should be permitted latitude to
24 proffer bar table documents to deal with issues presented by the document
25 which we determine when it's ultimately translated.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE KWON: The witness has not confirmed anything about this
3 document, and the Chamber doesn't find it necessary or relevant to
4 understand the context of the witness's evidence, so we'll not admit
6 And we'll have a break for 25 minutes, and resume at five to
8 --- Recess taken at 5.29 p.m.
9 --- On resuming at 5.57 p.m.
10 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. May I ask the legal
12 officer to put a document on the ELMO -- the usher, rather, and I hope
13 the Prosecution will tell us its provenance, because it's one page from a
14 book they disclosed to us, ERN 01389586.
15 That's right, the page with the number. That's the one we need
16 now. We don't have time for the rest. [In English] This page that is
17 under the number.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Mr. Gusic, I have to read out to you. I have to read because
20 it's not been translated because I didn't know you would challenge these
22 The SDA branch in Bratunac sent its delegation to the founding
23 meeting of the Patriotic League of the region of Tuzla on the 11th
24 January 1992, to Tojsici, Kalesija municipality, and the members of the
25 delegation were as follows: Nijaz Dubicic, president of the municipality
1 and Sabit Mujkic, commander of the Territorial Defence of Bratunac. At
2 the meeting in Tojsici, at the request of the Bratunac delegation, a
3 decision was made to send to Bratunac Samir Nistovic to coordinate the
4 work of the Patriotic League of Bratunac and help with the drafting of
5 defence plans for the municipality of Bratunac. The Bratunac delegation
6 proposed that Nedzib Husic from Bratunac be appointed commander of the
7 Patriotic League for the subregion (Bratunac, Zvornik, and Vlasenica)
8 whose rank was major in the Territorial Defence of Bratunac and the
9 proposal was accepted.
10 JUDGE KWON: First, what is this about? You have to tell what
11 book this is, and second, what's the relevance of these questions?
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, if I may draw your
13 attention to the middle of the page where you see the name of this
14 witness, Dzevad Gusic. It's approximately line 20. Dzevad Gusic and all
15 the other participants in these preparations and it says that the SDA of
16 Bratunac formed the Patriotic League in 1991 or, rather, planned to, and
17 put these plans into practice in 1992. This contradicts directly what
18 the witness is saying. Secondly, it points to his involvement. And
19 third, if I'm not allowed to challenge the credibility and the
20 allegations of this witness then this is a waste of time.
21 The Prosecution provided this document, but only one page of it.
22 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger.
23 MR. TIEGER: The only thing I wanted to -- to mention,
24 Mr. President, was that Mr. Karadzic made a comment that he's only now
25 having this document placed on the ELMO because he didn't know he would
1 have to challenge these things. That's quite unfounded, even
2 disingenuous, in light of the amalgamated statement the accused has had
3 for quite some time. I think he could easily see that this issue was on
4 the table if he chose to challenge it.
5 JUDGE KWON: Do you confirm that this is -- the Prosecution
6 offered this one-page document to the accused?
7 MR. TIEGER: We're now checking the -- this document was just
8 presented to us as soon as the accused made his comment about the
9 provenance we started looking into it. I will advise the Chamber
11 JUDGE KWON: Very well. You heard the accused's question,
12 Mr. Gusic, and you have read this passage. Can you confirm that,
13 Mr. Gusic?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You see, before I answer the
15 question I have to point to what the accused said, namely that I had
16 denied something and now he's trying to refute my denying saying that the
17 book is correct and my statement is incorrect. Now, this context that
18 the accused has read out -- if I'm testifying here, do I have right to
19 call him the accused? One would need to read the whole book. I know
20 about this book. I know what it says, and if you read the whole book you
21 get an entirely different impression. Even the accused himself noted
22 that this military staff was established in 1992, and I believe I spoke
23 about that in my previous answers when I said that the Executive Board,
24 sometime in January, February 1992, made a decision to set up this kind
25 of defence staff for Bratunac, because we had certain information that
1 I've spoken to you about the threats to the Bratunac municipality.
2 What this book says is correct, no doubt about it.
3 Samir Nistovic, himself, came like Nurif used to come in 1991. I can't
4 remember the month, September or October, perhaps, 1991, speaking again
5 about those big plans that Serbia and the JNA had concerning the division
6 of Bosnia and the possibility that Bosnia would be attacked and they
7 asked that people organise themselves. And then something was set up it
8 was called I believe the Initiative Board of the Patriotic League, but
9 all that was only done on paper. Nothing really happened in practice.
10 Concerning Nedzib Husic, you can also find more about him in the
11 book. That man stayed in that position for seven or ten days only, and
12 then he realised it was an impossible thing to do.
13 JUDGE KWON: So do you know the author and title of it?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know it's called "The truth about
15 Bratunac." The author is a history professor, Nijaz Masic.
16 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. This says that the SDA in Bratunac set up the Patriotic League in
19 1991 and its military structure in 1992.
20 A. That's what it says.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be MFI'd? We'll get hold
22 of the entire book if it's indeed the truth about Bratunac, then we would
23 be interested too.
24 JUDGE KWON: Yes. It will be marked for identification.
25 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI D1657, Your Honours.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].
3 Q. Mr. Gusic, please don't hold it against me that sometimes I call
4 you "Witness." Witnesses come one after another. I don't always
5 remember their names.
6 A. I've lived through a lot. I'm beyond that.
7 Q. Is Pobudje a village in Bratunac? Give me a yes or no answer.
8 A. I think it is.
9 Q. Do you know its population?
10 A. I don't know exactly. Perhaps a hundred.
11 Q. Can we see 1D4083 in e-court. It's a list of members of the
12 Territorial Defence of Pobudje of April 1992, 434 men, almost all of them
13 from Pobudje, one from Sebjocina who was just visiting or a refugee.
14 Look at page one and then we can look at the last page, the Crisis Staff
15 of Pobudje. You'll see that in April 1991 they were already there, very
16 few joined in June or later. So it's not true what you said a moment ago
17 that you were taken by surprise. Pobudje, a small village, has a
18 battalion of 500. Just as the JNA reported on the plans of the SDA that
19 every municipality should have a 500-strong battalion. Here we see one
20 village has that many.
21 A. What kind of list is it?
22 Q. Can we see the last page?
23 A. What is this list? Where has it been taken out of? What kind of
24 document is it?
25 Q. This is Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Territorial Defence
1 of BH, TO Pobudje, list of members of Pobudje Territorial Defence, a
2 document obviously seized in a raid. You see what it says. Crisis
3 Staff. Every name is verifiable, including dates of birth and dates of
4 joining, and most of them joined in April.
5 A. I see July 1992. Is it in July that somebody made this list?
6 Q. Mr. Avdo Omerovic made the list in July.
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger.
8 MR. TIEGER: That's a fair question that --
9 JUDGE KWON: Why don't you show the first page.
10 MR. TIEGER: And we can have some information about the
11 provenance of the document rather than sort of an assumption or some kind
12 of projected conclusion. There must be some information about where this
13 document comes from and how the Defence got ahold of it and what it
14 purports to be.
15 JUDGE KWON: Let us see the first page, in particular the
16 heading. Can you zoom in a bit further.
17 Can you read the first part, the heading part, Mr. Gusic?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't make it out. It's
19 illegible, but I'd like to state following if I may: This list was made
20 by Avdo Omerovic in July 1992. That means from April to July 1992, the
21 whole Bratunac municipality, apart from this Pobudje village and
22 Konjevic Polje was ethnically cleansed and Muslims were purged out. This
23 village Pobudje and a few other villages such as Konjevic Polje, when
24 they saw what happened in Bratunac and the surrounding villages managed
25 to organise themselves somehow and put up some resistance in that part of
1 the Bratunac municipality. And I allow the possibility that they made
2 this list and some records of their own, but I want to emphasise that
3 this date stated here, the 4th of April that they joined the
4 Territorial Defence on that day, I don't think that's correct. I'm
5 absolutely sure, in fact, it's not correct.
6 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Gusic, did you -- did you say that this document
7 was written or prepared by Omerovic, Avdo?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what it says further down in
9 the document.
10 JUDGE KWON: Why don't you show the last page.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't know.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You're right. It's not a list of
13 fighting men of Avdo Omerovic. This was signed by the Crisis Staff of
14 Pobudje. So there are more. And looking at page 1, this is part of a
15 collection. It is Annex 17A. It's probably part of a collection
16 belonging to some state authority of Republika Srpska for collection of
17 evidence, and this was seized, as far as I know, in a police raid.
18 JUDGE KWON: English translation seems to read: "This list does
19 not include fighters in Pobudje from Kamenica led by Avdo Omerovic." Is
20 that correct?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't know, but I suppose
22 that -- you see, what I think this is about these are fighters that
23 managed to organise themselves after Bratunac was occupied. These are
24 places such as Kamenica here are not in Bratunac municipality at all.
25 They're in Zvornik municipality. That was the enclave that was
1 surrounded at the time. So I really can't comment or say anything about
2 this list. All I know with certainty is that on 4th of April, 1992, they
3 did not have any unit at all, because I toured Bratunac municipality at
4 the time, and what I saw with my own eyes was complete lack of readiness
5 in terms of any defence capability.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be document be admitted?
9 JUDGE KWON: I don't see any basis to admit this.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we see 1D4084.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Is Brezovica close to you?
13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the answer.
14 JUDGE KWON: How did you answer the question, Mr. Gusic?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I don't know about
16 Brezovica. Is it a hamlet? Is it a small village? I don't think it's
17 in Bratunac municipality. It doesn't sound familiar.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Does Avdic, Fahrudin sound familiar?
20 A. I know Fahrudin Avdic, but he's from Srebrenica, I believe.
21 Q. Are these Serbian villages that were attacked by this company
22 from Brezovica? Did this Brezovica company attack villages in Bratunac?
23 A. Which Brezovica?
24 Q. Well, you claim that this whole enclave up to Kamenica and
25 Srebrenica, as you call it the free territory, you say it was united, did
1 Srebrenica units, for instance, attack Kravica on Christmas 1993?
2 A. I was not in that territory controlled by the BH Army, but I have
3 some knowledge and some information. There was certain combat involving
4 both sides, attacks by the BH Army and attacks by the VRS. I have
5 information that there was fighting. As far as Kravica is concerned,
6 Kravica was discussed in the Naser Oric trial, and I believe the Defence
7 proved in that case that it was paramilitary operation, and I don't think
8 Naser Oric was convicted on the charges relating to Kravica.
9 Q. Then we won't deal with this any more, because we can't get an
10 answer, especially not a short one.
11 Mr. Gusic -- can we see 1D4087. Mr. Gusic, is it true that the
12 president of the municipality got a job immediately after his appointment
13 and the chief of the police station also took up his job immediately?
14 A. You mean after they were elected?
15 Q. I'll put it to you this way: Muslims were put into their
16 positions immediately and the Serb commander of the police station was
17 not able to assume his position for a whole year. That's one of the
18 reasons for the tensions.
19 A. I don't recall that the commander of the police station took up
20 his job immediately, but I can't remember why.
21 Q. Is this the disposition of positions: President of the
22 municipality, secretary of the secretariat for the economy and social
23 affairs, secretary of the Secretariat for National Defence, member of the
24 Executive Board, commander of the TO staff, and there is no commander of
25 the police station listed here, but it's clear that the SDA got that
2 A. As far as the police station is concerned, we had certain
3 problems after that ambush in Kravica that happened in 1991. I believe
4 the whole personnel of this police station was replaced, including chief
5 and commander. There were certainly problems.
6 Q. You were not the ones who had a problem. Serbs had a problem.
7 Is this the way power was distributed? We can't see the positions of the
8 chief and the commander.
9 A. I don't know about the misdemeanour charge.
10 Q. The SDS got the position of President of the Executive Board,
11 director of the municipal administration for taxes, director of the
12 municipal administration for surveys, vice-president of the Municipal
13 Assembly, et cetera.
14 A. As far as I can see, the SDS got six positions.
15 Q. But all of them insignificant. Isn't that right, Mr. Gusic?
16 A. I would not say that they're insignificant. Your president of
17 the SDS for Bratunac, Miroslav Deronjic, was a very skilful politician.
18 You know that much better than I do. And I think that the Serbs were
19 most pleased with this distribution, and they accepted that. We were not
20 pleased. We had 52 per cent. That was the outcome of the elections and
21 that's how power was supposed to be shared. The SDS had 40 per cent and
22 the other parties had 8 per cent. So this was at our detriment -- to our
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can this be admitted.
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D1658, Your Honours.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Can we now have 65 ter 742. Page 8 now. Actually, page 7 so
4 that we see the date. Actually, 6. 00835914 is the ERN number. We want
5 to establish that that is a session of the Serb Municipal Assembly of
6 Bratunac held on the 13th of February, 1992. Is that what is written
8 Mr. Gusic, does it say the 13th of February, 1992?
9 A. Yes. That's what is written here, but I didn't know that you
10 were asking me.
11 Q. Can we have page 3 now in Serbian. The ERN number 16. That's
12 the last two digits, 16.
13 Down here on the left-hand side it says that item 5 on the agenda
14 was discussed. Mr. Miroslav Deronjic elaborated on this item on the
15 agenda, that is to say the appointment of the commander of the public
16 security station. He said that they intentionally --
17 JUDGE KWON: Are we on the correct page? I found that item on
18 page 3 in English, but I don't know where in B/C/S.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In Serbian -- let's move to the
20 left-hand page for the moment and then we'll go back to this that is
21 being displayed right now.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Do you see it, Mr. Gusic, towards the bottom?
24 Mr. Miroslav Deronjic elaborated on this item, which is the appointment
25 of the commander of the station, and that is a post that belonged to the
1 Serbs, and he --
2 JUDGE KWON: Probably next page.
3 MR. TIEGER: Yeah, Mr. President. It's page 5 of the English,
4 which is the -- ends with the ERN 0613.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. I'm going to read it out you see what it says here:
7 "Mr. Miroslav Deronjic explained this item of the agenda appointing the
8 commander of the SJB. He said that they were intentionally postponing
9 the appointment of the police commander and propose that had we too do
10 not appoint any of their personnel to positions until the issue of ..."
11 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let's move to the next page.
13 JUDGE KWON: You have to make sure the witness it following.
14 Move to the next page.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Thank you. It's the top of the page: "... until this issue of
17 ours is resolved, appointing the commander that is. Mr. Deronjic's
18 decision was adopted unanimously."
19 Do you see that for all one year the Serbs didn't manage to
20 appoint their personnel in such a sensitive segment, a segment as
21 sensitive as security is?
22 A. Let us try to distinguish.
23 Q. Let us not distinguish anything. Was he appointed or was he not
25 A. That is no way to talk. You shall speaking about the date of the
1 13th of February, and you're talking about the Serb Municipal Assembly.
2 That is an illegal entity that was created, I think, in the beginning of
3 January 1992. That is an illegal entity.
4 Q. Mr. Gusic?
5 A. I'll answer your question.
6 Q. At that time it was the joint police station; is that not the
8 A. Please, please. Let us just clarify certain matters for the sake
9 of the Trial Chamber, for the sake of the public. I kindly ask you do
10 have some patience. I'm patient. I'm hearing you out and I'm following
11 all of this --
12 JUDGE KWON: [Previous translation continues] ... you were asked
13 about the reason why the certain position in the police was not
14 appointed. Whether that Serbian Assembly was a legal or illegal entity,
15 that's a separate issue. So could you answer the question first and if
16 necessary the accused, the Prosecution or the Chamber will take up the
17 question -- the rest of the question if necessary.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, just two sentences. At the
19 legal Assembly of the Municipality of Bratunac, when power was shared all
20 the positions were filled, the chief of police, the commander, members of
21 the Executive Board from the SDS, at the SDA and so on and so forth. I
22 tried to explain all of that, however, I was being interrupted all the
24 There were certain problems in September 1991. In Kravica there
25 was an ambush and two Bosniaks were killed and two Bosniaks were wounded.
1 Since the situation was very tense, inter-ethnic tensions were on the
2 rise. We had interventions from the republican leadership. Mr. Ganic
3 and Mr. Koljevic came, members of the Presidency, both of them. And then
4 the deputy minister of police, Vitomir Zepinic is his name, I think.
5 He's a Serb, with his counsellors, Avdo Hebib, Saric and some other men.
6 At the time they were replaced and then the chief and the commander of
7 the police resigned. Somebody from Tuzla was appointed either chief or
8 commander of the police, someone from the public security there, and for
9 a couple of months he held that position. That was from September 1991
10 until, say, the end of 1991 or beginning of 1992. So it is not correct
11 what the accused is saying, that for a year and more than a year the
12 Muslim side obstructed this, the appointment of the commander of police.
13 I allow for the possibility there may have been some obstruction
14 from January 1992 onwards when this illegal Serbian Assembly, this
15 illegal entity was founded so perhaps there were some misunderstandings
16 then and some confrontations. Perhaps for some similar reasons our side
17 no longer agreed to appoint the chief of police or, rather, the commander
18 of the police did not have agree to have him appointed.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].
20 Q. From September 1991 until the beginning of the war, was it not
21 Muslims who held both positions of commander and of chief of the station?
22 A. September 1991 did you say?
23 Q. The crisis in Kravica.
24 A. I really don't know. I think one person was appointed from the
25 public security stations -- public security centre in Tuzla, and the task
1 was to overcome the problems there and to have an alleviation of the
2 situation there and later on the commander was appointed.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this page be admitted?
4 MR. TIEGER: It's already been admitted.
5 JUDGE KWON: I was told that this is part of exhibit that has
6 already been admitted. If you could give the number.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P3199, Your Honours.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we briefly have
9 D381 to see what Mr. Zepinic and I were saying on the telephone on the
10 10th of February, 1992.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. It is Karadzic and Zepinic who is deputy minister who are the
13 interlocutors. Look what Karadzic says here:
14 "Ah-ha Vito, please, now we are suffering the consequences of not
15 having appointed a Serb as milicija commander in Bratunac. Over there
16 they're establishing a borderline in the direction of Serbia and setting
17 barricades and access or, rather, barrier?"
18 Can we have the next page in Serbian. You see what Zepinic says
20 "We adopted this kind of decision that pro -- that proposed
21 decision on personnel changes have been cancelled in all stations from
22 heads to deputy commanders."
23 And Karadzic says:
24 "Please, we are going to have to create our police there."
25 And Zepinic says:
1 "Our problem is Bratunac. Our problem is Srebrenica. Our
2 problem is Jajce. The Croats are disputing something and the Muslims
3 won't give them something in Western Herzegovina, that is to say, the
4 Croats both make concessions to Muslims in Western Herzegovina. We are
5 not giving Muslims and we are even now."
6 Karadzic says, "Where are they setting barricades?"
7 And then further down they are saying that they're setting up
8 barriers and they're not letting Serbs enter from Serbia and they are
9 obstructing the freedom of movement. Did you know about all of that?
10 A. First of all, it's not correct. There were no barricades.
11 Secondly, as for someone not letting the Serbs enter Bratunac from
12 Serbia, that's not correct either. I don't know if you remember that
13 sometime then, the end of 1991 or beginning of 1992, Serbia passed a
14 decision on not allowing goods to be exported. Muslims were adversely
15 affected by that. It was the policemen of the MUP of Serbia who were --
16 Q. Mr. Gusic, Serbia did not allow the export of wheat to Bosnia.
17 We ate five times more wheat, but actually we were smuggling it across
18 the border to Serbia. So do not confuse the matter.
19 A. It wasn't only wheat. It was all goods.
20 Q. We are going to prove that it's wheat and other strategic
21 materials, and we Bosnians made five times more money on that and Serbia
22 remained without any wheat because of us. Let us look at 3086. That's
23 the 65 ter number. Let's see what happened in Kravica.
24 30186. This is a conversation between Mr. Zvonko Bajagic and
25 myself. It's on the 4th of September, 1991. Look at the second half:
1 Bajagic is asking whether I know about what is going on, what has been
2 going on since Friday, and I say that I know they shot at the president
3 of the executive council and then this fellow was arrested and then
4 released. And he says yes and then Karadzic says then Muslims were
5 headed to Kravica village. Was their intention to attack or what?
6 Zvonko says no, and I said but, and then Zvonko provides an explanation.
7 Now can we have the next page.
8 There were tensions, there was unrest, and the SUP sent the
9 police to Kravica. It was only Serbs that went there, and in other
10 places there were joint patrols.
11 And then further down: It says after this initial shooting at
12 the president of the Executive Council and Karadzic says all right. That
13 means that I had heard about it. It doesn't mean that it was all right
14 that he was shot.
15 And then Bajagic says: They were wounded and what they did up
16 there in Han Pijesak, that was the pretext. They had already sent
17 information to that effect.
18 And then I say: These two men were wounded.
19 And Bajagic says: After that wounding, again there was an
20 attempted assassination of the president of the Executive Council.
21 And Karadzic says: It was a Serb who was being shot at again.
22 And Bajagic says: Look, you should know what is going on. Let
23 us leave aside this president of the Executive Council. You know that
24 they tried to kill him.
25 And I say: But this president is a Serb, isn't he?
1 And he says: Yes.
2 And then Karadzic says: And these people from Han Pijesak are
3 Serbs who are wounded.
4 And Karadzic says: All right.
5 And then can we have the next page?
6 Last night these four persons took a car and they were moving
7 through Kravica. This is their main military strategist from the SDA and
8 he was a provocateur, and he was in a car with three other men, and he
9 says, yes, yes, they passed through Kravica twice.
10 And Karadzic says, And Kravica is a Serb village.
11 And he says: Yes, Kravica is a Serb village, as a region, and so
12 on and so forth.
13 And then further down: They passed there twice. They went to
14 Konjevic Polje and Konjevic Polje is Muslim.
15 And Karadzic says: So it was a kind of provocation.
16 And he says: Yes. They were going with all the car windows open
17 and with the barrels of their automatic weapons sticking out of these
18 windows. And then they say there are police patrols there. They didn't
19 want to stop. And towards the end, it says, at the exit from Kravica in
20 the direction of Bratunac, Serbs are holding that border. Serbs have
21 their own guards there.
22 Can we have the next page, please.
23 Please read it for yourself. Anybody can read it.
24 And now they're saying somebody from the MUP will come by
25 helicopter and Bajagic says they killed two Muslims. They did not kill
1 the man number one. And then towards the end people from Kravica holding
2 the position. They're not letting a single MUP policeman to get through
3 into their territory.
4 Next page, please.
5 And then he says people from Kravica are very firm. They're not
6 budging. The Muslim police want to come there.
7 Karadzic asks: Are they armed?
8 Bajagic says: Yes, they are.
9 And Karadzic asks: Has anyone had any contact with the
10 volunteers, with Han Pijesak, with the barracks?
11 And you know at Han Pijesak there was a barracks; right?
12 A. I know that.
13 Q. Karadzic says: No, nobody had any contact about that.
14 Then Bajagic says: At any rate, you should know this is a most
15 urgent matter. Somebody should show up there immediately. There will be
16 trouble big time.
17 Karadzic says: Who?
18 And he says: Somebody from the SDA and the SDS.
19 Karadzic says: To do what?
20 Bajagic says: Well, only the army could go there. They don't
21 trust the MUP.
22 Can we see the next page.
23 And now in the lower third, let me skip this first part, I say:
24 I didn't know that. I only know those two men had died, were killed. I
25 didn't know if it was a provocation or an attack on Kravica. I was with
1 Izetbegovic until ten minutes ago when we were waiting to get real
2 information. Zepinic and Hebib are somewhere up there and Zepinic has
3 not called me yet. He should call me so I can tell him not to send MUP
4 to Serbian villages.
5 Can we see the next page?
6 JUDGE KWON: Page 6 in English.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note: The last two pages from
8 which the accused has been reading have not been displayed.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. And Karadzic says: In your view, who is to blame?
11 And he says: They are to blame. Did not want to stop for two
12 police patrols. They keep their guns out of the window. They were
13 shouting and provoking.
14 Now, let me not read all of this.
15 Karadzic says: And why did that man shoot at the president of
16 the Executive Board?
17 It's probably the next page in English.
18 He got orders. He wanted to assassinate him.
19 Karadzic says: It must have been on orders. They want to fight
20 against the Serbs, and then some profanity.
21 And then he says: In my lay opinion, the SDA leadership must be
22 behind this, because there can't be any better municipality than Bratunac
23 to provoke the Serbs.
24 Bajagic says: If they sacrifice their own Muslim people down
25 there for the sake of a provocation, and then the families are all mixed
1 there. He speaks of Serbs across the Drina. They are bound by bonds of
2 friendship and family bonds. People will not -- people will not wait for
3 official orders to come from Serbia to defend their brothers. And the
4 Muslims will use that.
5 And Karadzic says: Don't let Serbs from Serbia do that and tell
6 those Muslims that they are being sacrificed and that they should not
7 fall for it, because they should not fight us. They can't even threaten
8 us anywhere.
9 Then Bajagic says: Rajko knows what people, Serbs from Kravica
10 or like. They're crazy. I told them, people did you contact the head
11 office? Did you make contact with the SDS head office?
12 Bajagic says: Nobody reacts. I came on my own initiative to
13 inform you.
14 And then Karadzic --
15 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, you spent ten minutes reading this
16 intercept without putting a question at all.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. The question is: Mr. Gusic, can you see from this that I had no
19 clue what the local Serbs and local Muslims were doing, that I'm just
20 making inquiries and the head office is not having any control over this?
21 A. Can I just ask who this Bajagic is?
22 JUDGE KWON: Don't overlap. Yes. You asked the accused who this
23 Bajagic -- Mr. Bajagic was.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Bajagic is a member of the SDS from Vlasenica. He was
1 observing the situation. He asked, "Did you report this to the SDS?"
2 They did not, and he came to inform me.
3 A. Just tell me one more thing. At what President of the Executive
4 Board did they shoot?
5 Q. From the next passage we see that we don't even know what his
6 name is. Djuka. And then it turns out it Rodoljub Djukanovic. It says
7 an official from the party. Then it says Vlado Djukanovic in the next
9 A. Now I can answer the question. As far as the President of the
10 Executive Board is concerned, Rodoljub Djukanovic, the President of the
11 Executive Board in Bratunac, I can say with full certainty that nobody
12 ever shot at him. Investigation showed later that those men who
13 perpetrated the assassination, Marko Markovic from Ljubovija in Serbia,
14 Radenko Milanovic, also known as Mali Raso, were involved and there were
15 indication that -- indications that some Serb policemen were also
16 involved. So your allegation is, to say the least, not consistent with
17 the truth.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted -- or MFI'd,
21 JUDGE KWON: We have no basis -- but not through this witness. I
22 was told that this has been already marked for identification.
23 Mr. Karadzic, your time is up but given the situation that it's
24 impracticable to start the next witness, I will give you the rest of the
25 day minus the time for the Prosecution's re-examination. How much would
1 you need, Mr. Tieger?
2 MR. TIEGER: I have no re-examination at this point,
3 Mr. President. Can I say one thing about the intercept quickly. We've
4 addressed the issue of admissibility versus MFI. I have no intention of
5 revisiting that even when the accused introduces intercepts by saying
6 let's look at what I was talking about with so-and-so, but given the
7 protocol he should refrain from making -- interjecting commentary in the
8 midst of reading what the intercept contains to explain what he was
9 saying as he did on this occasion.
10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Mr. Karadzic, you should take that into
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I would like to make
13 myself clearer, that's -- that's why, and to gain time, but it seems I'm
14 wasting time.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Can we see 1D4088, please. Mr. Gusic, please look at this.
17 State Documentation Centre of Republika Srpska. It's a list of war
18 criminals known to the command of the 1st Light Infantry Brigade who
19 committed war crimes in the area of Bratunac, Srebrenica, Milici,
20 Vlasenica and Skelani municipalities and are believed to be in the
21 Srebrenica area.
22 Please look at how many men from Bratunac feature on this list.
23 Seventy per cent are from Bratunac, or 50 per cent, but number 15 is you.
24 A. We see in the heading about this list. "List of war criminals
25 known to the command, et cetera, et cetera, who committed war crimes in
1 the area of Bratunac, Srebrenica, Milici, Vlasenica and Skelani
2 municipalities and are believed to be in Srebrenica."
3 From 17 April 1992 onward, I was not in Srebrenica until the end
4 of the war. I first went back there in 1997 or 1998. So I can say that
5 this list is completely false, not only as far as it concerns me, but
6 many other people listed here who have nothing to do with war crimes.
7 Q. Can we see the last page I want to show you out of the total of
8 387 that 129 are from Bratunac. It says there are indications that you
9 are in Srebrenica; it doesn't say you are certainly in Srebrenica. The
10 document does not challenge the rest.
11 A. The document makes a lot of allegations. The printed media
12 published this entire list and I know a lot of these people on the list
13 never held a gun, had left Bosnia and Herzegovina long before, and they
14 still feature on that list. That's what I'm saying, that all of this
15 should be analysed and verified. A check should be run if it's possible.
16 Q. There will be Defence witnesses coming here, too, so we'll do it
17 through them.
18 Can this list be admitted?
19 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger?
20 MR. TIEGER: No. There's no basis, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE KWON: I agree, Mr. Tieger. There's no basis on which we
22 can admit this through this witness.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Thank you. 1D4089, please. Is this true, what we see written
25 here, Mr. Gusic? Tell the Chamber what it is, because the interpretation
1 is lagging -- or, rather, we don't have the translation yet.
2 A. Let me see what this is. I need a moment.
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger.
4 MR. TIEGER: Yeah. There's no translation for this document
5 again, Mr. President, and trying contextually just to figure out what it
6 might be is extremely difficult, so I would ask for the provenance of
7 this document.
8 JUDGE KWON: Can you help us, Mr. Karadzic?
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is a collection of facsimiles
10 and telegrams that the Defence managed to obtain, and it's material from
11 the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Does it say here that the SDA throughout this period worked
14 continuously both in terms of organised authorities, militarily and
15 politically? Dzevad Gusic as president has been with the fighting men
16 from day one and even was commander of a company.
17 A. If I have to say something about this document, I believe the
18 information listed here is correct. I was a member of the ABH in this
19 period under the command of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. I can state
20 exactly where I was, in what locations, occupying which positions if you
21 give me time, and I don't see anything in dispute here. All I see is
22 that this is a correspondence between somebody in a small place Bljeceva,
23 and somebody from our own people in Bratunac. Which year is it? Let me
25 Q. It says -- it says January 1994, and it says that you are deputy
1 commander as of 26 March 1993, and later commander -- assistant commander
2 for moral guidance?
3 A. That's true. I was deputy assistant commander for moral guidance
4 in Kladanj. Kladanj has nothing to do with this. It's a fact. It's
5 easy to prove. I don't know why you insist so much on this document.
6 This is a simple correspondence between those people up there who were in
7 an encirclement and us who were trying to organise themselves.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?
9 JUDGE KWON: Still I'm not satisfied with its provenance,
10 particularly given that it does not reflect the correct diacritics, but
11 in the meantime given the answers given by the witness, we'll mark it for
13 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI D1659, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE KWON: Your last question, Mr. Karadzic.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I need to tender at least two more
16 documents. One will be very brief showing that this gentleman doesn't
17 know about our interrelations within the SDS. It's 65 ter 603, page 13
18 out of 19.
19 JUDGE KWON: What's the point of presenting the document if the
20 witness doesn't know anything about it?
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I want to prove he knows nothing.
22 What he said is totally inaccurate. This document shows that Deronjic
23 and I were very distant. We had a very cool relationship, and we were
24 even political opponents.
25 JUDGE KWON: You will have another --
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I just respected the man because he
2 was chosen locally. I directly challenge what this gentleman said. But
3 let us at least have a look at one international document. Can we then
4 see 1D4092, and after that I will say something about the possibility
5 given me to present my defence.
6 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Just a second.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Just one, that -- that document.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Yes. We have the first page now. This is a member of the
11 European Parliament, Christine Oddy. She is writing to Mr. Petrovski to
12 the Yugoslavian War Crimes Tribunal. Bratunac, Srebrenica, Skelani zone.
13 Then we're going to skip something and then we're going to move on to
14 0974831. That's the ERN number.
15 It seems to be page 6 in e-court. Yes.
16 Do you see that it is impossible -- I have to read this out to
18 "[In English][Previous translation continues] ... We also mention
19 that Serbs have not yet been expelled from the two municipal centres of
20 Bratunac and Skelani, both of which are located on banks of Drina River.
21 Out of the total number of 11.500 Serbs in the Bratunac municipality,
22 only 5.391 or 47 per cent are still there."
23 Do you know, Mr. Gusic, of a single Serb village that remained
24 under Muslim control that had not been burned?
25 A. You see, all of this fighting that you are referring to occurred
1 after I left on the 17th of April when you basically exterminated all the
2 Muslims from Bratunac and --
3 Q. These are platitudes, sir, and then you'll have to stay here for
4 a week.
5 A. It's not platitudes. Then there was a certain organisation, and
6 then people were organised in the enclaves and there was active combat on
7 both sides. You know that as well as I do. There was active combat on
8 both sides, you know that as well as I do. In this active combat, there
9 were victims on all sides. There's nothing controversial or unclear
10 there. Of course, I assume -- I mean, I do not doubt that Serb villages
11 fell victim as well as Serb soldiers, Serb civilians. There's nothing
12 for me to challenge there.
13 Q. Can we have -- can we have page 37. In this rush, this is what
14 I'm going to put to you, sir: You evacuated the Muslims --
15 JUDGE KWON: What's the relevance of this? Why is it -- it is
16 not a tu quoque.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's not tu quoque. I am proving
18 that that is not what happened, that the Serbs had not attacked. It was
19 the Serbs who were attacked. Three thousand five hundred Serbs were
20 killed in that area, not Muslims. All of this is a lie, Mr. President.
21 All of it is a lie. This is a combatant of the Army of
22 Bosnia-Herzegovina is speaking here, and he has been marked as a war
23 criminal on this list, and I am challenging everything he said, and I
24 have documents to prove that, and I have no way to defend myself. I have
25 no opportunity to defend myself.
1 JUDGE KWON: Your last question, Mr. Karadzic.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Do you know, Mr. Gusic, that in that area tens of mass graves
4 were found and that General Morillon took part in discovering that and
5 almost all Serb soldiers were killed in Muslim villages and the other way
6 round? Just tell us that. Do you know that in Serb villages a vast
7 majority of soldiers got killed and the other way around?
8 A. I don't really know about that.
9 Q. If that is the case, you should explain this to me as a soldier?
10 A. You should find somebody else to answer all these questions.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have to tell the Trial Chamber
12 that this is no defence and that there is no way of going on this way. I
13 have to look into the matter and see which steps I should take. This is
14 no way to defend oneself. Bringing in a political propagandist of the
15 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina to air propaganda here that is presented as
17 JUDGE MORRISON: Dr. Karadzic, it's for the Trial Chamber to
18 assess witnesses. Cross-examination is not the same thing as putting
19 your defence in minute detail. Cross-examination is a discrete art
20 whereby you put the main points with which you disagree with the thrust
21 of the witness's evidence. You are, with respect, actively confusing
22 cross-examination with presenting a defence case. There is an overlap,
23 but they are not the same things.
24 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger.
25 MR. TIEGER: Regarding the document, Mr. President or just why I
1 was up?
2 JUDGE KWON: I saw -- you rose.
3 MR. TIEGER: I think my comments have been pre-empted by
4 His Honour's comments. I was responding to what I considered an
5 inappropriate attack on the witness.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let me just add something. On page
7 865, in the chapter entitled "Organisers of the Crime," this member of
8 the European Parliament came to the information that this witness is in
9 place five or six, the fifth or sixth person on the list, and if that is
10 not relevant to you and if that does not impeach this witness, I really
11 do not see how someone can defend oneself.
12 A. Well, you show me this.
13 Q. I have the number. Let's see this 0974865.
14 JUDGE KWON: But is this part -- is this part of the same
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 JUDGE KWON: Your answer, Mr. Gusic.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No comment. This is something -- I
19 don't want to say anything that would be bad manners in any way, although
20 the accused would deserve that. What he said over the past ten minutes
21 or so are pure fabrications and nothing else.
22 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger, as to the admissibility of this
24 MR. TIEGER: Well, I -- it seems to me at a minimum -- well, let
25 me address this issue. There -- the accused is trying to present this
1 document as if it's an investigation of the international community.
2 It's patently the provision by this particular member of the
3 international community of documents presented to her by Serbian
4 authorities and a simple look at page 37, which was displayed by the
5 accused, illustrates that. The language of that document -- that page of
6 the document is very clear that it was drafted by Bosnian Serb officials.
7 I was going to say at a minimum I invoke a comment by -- and an
8 observation by Mr. Robinson the other day and that is certainly nothing
9 more could be considered for admission than the particular pages
10 displayed to the witness of this voluminous document, but beyond that,
11 the Court needs to be aware, I think, that the suggestion that this was
12 somehow independently compiled by the international community rather than
13 being a transmission of materials submitted to it by Bosnian Serb
14 authorities needs to be considered.
15 JUDGE KWON: Given the time, we'll give the ruling as to its
16 admissibility tomorrow.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can just --
18 JUDGE KWON: And we'll hear any submission, if any, tomorrow, but
19 we need to conclude today.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just indicate that it is
21 impermissible to leave aside what a member of the European Parliament did
22 a long time ago in 1993. We can disregard a member of the
23 European Parliament and cannot do that to a member of the Bosnian Army.
24 JUDGE KWON: That's a separate matter whether to admit this
25 document through this witness.
1 In any event, Mr. Gusic, your evidence has been concluded and on
2 behalf of this Chamber I'd like to thank you for coming to The Hague to
3 give it. Have a safe journey back home.
4 Tomorrow --
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to thank you as well,
6 very much.
7 JUDGE KWON: We'll continue tomorrow at 2.15. And I'd like to
8 thank the indulgence of the staff members. Thank you.
9 [The witness withdrew]
10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.12 p.m.,
11 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 25th day
12 of August, 2011, at 2.15 p.m.