1 Monday, 29 August 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The witness entered court]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everyone. Good morning,
7 Mr. Osmanovic.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
9 JUDGE KWON: Today we are sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis, with
10 Judge Morrison being away due to his urgent personal matters.
11 Mr. Karadzic, are you ready to start your cross-examination?
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Excellency. Good
13 morning, Excellencies. Good morning to everyone.
14 WITNESS: IBRO OSMANOVIC [Resumed]
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
17 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Osmanovic.
18 A. Good morning.
19 Q. At the beginning, allow me to express my sympathy and compassion
20 with regard to your losses, particularly that of your sister, whose
21 conduct did not contribute in any way of her deserving to meet the fate
22 that she did, and please believe me, I am telling you this from my heart.
23 With your consent, I would now endeavour to clarify as precisely
24 as possible all your statements so that we ultimately arrive at the exact
1 You have testified in at least four cases and gave at least
2 four statements; is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Basically, at the beginning of your each of your statements you
5 describe the attendance and the religious congregation at Han Pijesak,
6 and you criticised the flying of the Serbian flag and the singing of the
7 Serbian song. Mr. Osmanovic, do you know that the Serbian Orthodox
8 Church, even during the Turkish rule, had its own banner, and that was a
9 different one from the state standard?
10 A. Yes, I know that the Serbian Orthodox Church had its banner. I
11 didn't criticise the fact that they were flying the banner and singing
12 the songs. Those were Chetnik songs.
13 Q. You said that they had a banner, but you also said that they sang
14 nationalist songs that had been prohibited. Can you tell us which songs
15 you had in mind?
16 A. "From Topola to Ravna Gora."
17 Q. "All the Guards Belong to General Draza"?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Are Topola and Ravna Gora in Serbia?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you know that the Western Allies never considered General
22 Draza and Chetniks their foes, that General Draza was accorded a medal by
23 the US president and that, quite recently, Draza Mihajlovic and his
24 movement have been rehabilitated by a court?
25 A. I don't know about that.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the speakers please
2 pause between questions and answers. Thank you.
3 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Osmanovic, you are being
4 requested by the interpreters to put a pause between the question and
5 answer. Thank you.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. You said that you don't know that he was rehabilitated, but do
8 you know that the Western Allies never considered Draza Mihajlovic their
10 A. I don't know about the Western allies, Mr. Karadzic, but I know
11 that the Communist Party of Yugoslavia --
12 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, where are we going? Let's come to the
13 issues of the case.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With all due respect,
15 Your Excellency, I think that the point of departure of this witness is
16 very important, and I want to find out what he thinks that is
17 inadmissible when it comes to Serbs, whether it's the Chetnik Movement or
18 whatever, and that was the first movement of that kind in the Balkans.
19 So there was no mention of Muslims or anyone else. So if his basic
20 position is anti-Serb, then it explains some other things as well.
21 Very well --
22 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Osmanovic, you are said to be an anti-Serb.
23 Would you like to comment on that, Mr. Osmanovic?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course, I would like to comment
25 on it that. I have nothing against the Serbs. My family is of mixed
1 ethnicity. My uncle and my brother were married to Serb women.
2 Thirty per cent of my family used to live and work with the Serbs. I had
3 Serb neighbours. We visited each other on religious holidays. We
4 attended baptism ceremonies, et cetera, on sad and on joyous occasions
5 equally. In this song, Nikola Kalabic was mentioned and he was a Chetnik
6 leader during the Second World War who was convicted by the Communist
7 authorities for his crimes committed against the Muslims and part of the
8 Serbian nation, and for that reason, I said that I didn't approve of
9 those songs. As for the Serbs themselves, I personally have nothing
10 against them.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Let us move, then, directly to Vlasenica and the issues relating
13 to it. You said that in April you noticed that there were divisions and
14 tensions between the Muslims and the Serbs. Do you agree that before
15 April a war had started and ended in Croatia in which volunteers from
16 Vlasenica, Muslim volunteers, took part in fighting the Serbs and that
17 Muslims from Vlasenica used to go to Croatia to undergo secret training
18 for police work, that they were sent there by the SDA?
19 MS. EDGERTON: There's at least three questions in that, maybe
20 more, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic. Remember the invaluable advice
22 from Judge Baird. Make -- put your question in a simpler form.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. First question: Do you know that up until April 1992, the
25 Croatian war started and ended?
1 A. I know that it began, but I don't know that it ended.
2 Q. All right. There was some sort of Vance-Owen Plan that appeased
3 this battle-field, but do you know that Vlasenica Muslims used to go to
4 Croatia to fight as volunteers with the Croatian Army?
5 A. I don't know.
6 Q. Thank you. Do you know that the SDA used to send its members,
7 its trusted members, along the party line to attend training courses for
8 policemen in Croatia?
9 A. I don't know about that either.
10 Q. Do you know that before April of that year, the political life in
11 Bosnia-Herzegovina was very tumultuous and that all this had to do with
12 intentions of the Muslim party to secede from Yugoslavia?
13 A. I know that there was a referendum on the secession.
14 Q. Was it also very exciting in the Assembly and on the government?
15 Was the whole previous year imbued by very tense political atmosphere?
16 A. I saw these political tensions in the Assembly of BH on TV in
17 which you, esteemed sir, took part in. You were one who contributed to
18 those tensions.
19 Q. Do you know that in Vlasenica agreements had been concluded on
20 forming two or maybe three separate municipalities out of one Vlasenica
22 A. I know that a Serbian municipality of Vlasenica was established
23 with a seat in Milici. I don't know what's the third one that you are
24 talking about.
25 Q. Do you agree that Milici separated separately and the rest of
1 Vlasenica should have become the basis for constituting two separate
2 municipalities and that each village was designated to which of those
3 individual municipalities it would belong?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Thank you. Did you know that this agreement was publicly
6 acclaimed by opposition parties and that that was even publicised in
7 early April?
8 A. I don't know.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we briefly look at 1D4127 in
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Do you agree that Emir Rabija is a Muslim name?
13 A. Just a moment. Let me see the paper.
14 Q. All right. We'll get back to this later. It seems that it
15 hasn't been uploaded in e-court yet.
16 Did you know that parallel with the negotiations on forming
17 two municipalities and two police stations and all the other issues apart
18 from the town infrastructure, the SDA [Realtime transcript read in error
19 "NCA"] was involved in preparations for a war?
20 A. No, I'm not aware of that.
21 Q. Did you know that the SDA was arming the Muslims and that the
22 Patriotic League in every municipality in April already had their staffs
23 and units?
24 A. I don't know that it existed in Vlasenica.
25 MS. EDGERTON: I'm sorry, Your Honours. Just at line 14 of
1 page 6, as interpreted, the question reads something like: "... apart
2 from the town infrastructure, the NCA was involved in preparations for
3 the war," and I'm sure there wasn't an intention to use the words "NCA."
4 JUDGE KWON: Perhaps SDA.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, the interpreter said "SDA."
6 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Is it true that before that critical 21st or 23rd of April, a
10 large number of both Serbs and Muslims were leaving Vlasenica?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you recall that Milenko Stanic, the municipality president and
13 Mr. Izet Redzic, the chairman of the Executive Council, went to a rally
14 in Tuzla in which they invited the refugees to come back?
15 A. I don't know whether these two gentlemen went to Tuzla, but I
16 know that those people who returned from Tuzla after the capture of
17 Vlasenica never left Vlasenica again.
18 Q. So do you know that the Territorial Defence of
19 Bosnia-Herzegovina, on the 12th of April, issued an order and directive
20 to attack the JNA?
21 A. I don't know about that.
22 Q. Well, you must have known that, because that was published the
23 next day, because we received that from well-intentioned Muslims, and we
24 made it public the very next day.
25 A. I don't know.
1 Q. Do you know that after that, until the 17th or the 18th of April,
2 Redzic and all the other SDA deputies had left, including the leadership
3 of the SDA and other Muslim officials, that they all left Vlasenica?
4 A. I don't know when they left or where they left, but I know that,
5 unfortunately, I and my family stayed behind, including a large number of
6 my neighbours.
7 Q. I feel complete solidarity with you and your family, but you
8 speak about other things in your statement as well, therefore, I have to
9 ask you about them. So you said that the JNA had come from Novi Sad on
10 the 21st of April; is that correct?
11 A. I said that that was the Novi Sad Corps of the Yugoslav People's
13 Q. Mm-hmm. So we agree that it didn't come from Novi Sad but that
14 it was, rather, already deployed and that this unit had actually some
15 from Sekovici, which is even deeper inside Bosnia?
16 A. They may have come from Sekovici.
17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't hear the names of the
18 remaining places.
19 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Did you say other places than
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. I said they
22 could have come from Milici, Han Pijesak, or Sekovici, because these are
23 the three roads that lead to Vlasenica.
24 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. But you do know that these people came from Sekovici; right?
2 A. Some elements were billeted at Tildja [as interpreted], near
3 cardboard factory, 1522 garrison was located there, so they may have come
4 from these three directions.
5 Q. How big was this unit?
6 A. Well, I don't know how it -- how big it was. I didn't count. I
7 did see four APCs and tanks. The tanks were near the playing field in
8 Vlasenica, near the stadium. The APCs were at the Muslim graveyard at
9 the exit of Vlasenica. Unfortunately, they drove these APCs around town
10 as well.
11 Q. Thank you. So you were in the army. You served; right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And you recognised or understood or found out that the unit was
14 led by Lieutenant Musa, who is a Yugoslav-Albanian; is that correct?
15 A. I found that out from a soldier who was born in Bijelo Polje, he
16 is a Montenegrin, he has a specific accent. So when I was talking to him
17 I found out that he was from Bijelo Polje, serving his regular military
18 term of duty in the Novi Sad Corps, and that the commander is a certain
19 Lieutenant Musa.
20 Q. As a man who served in the army, you would know the size of the
21 unit that could be under the command of a lieutenant; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. So that means that it wasn't a large unit; right?
24 A. Well, in view of the number of vehicles, no, it wasn't a large
1 Q. Thank you. In your statements you say that it was quiet until
2 the 23rd or the 24th of April when the JNA came. However, the JNA came
3 on the 21st of April. Is that right?
4 A. In a statement, sir, it says the 21st to the 23rd. So I wasn't
5 precise about the dates of their arrival. They did arrive on the 21st or
6 the 22nd of April, in the early morning. They issued an ultimatum that
7 weapons should be handed over and, that morning, all the local Serbs
8 turned up with standard military weapons, long-barrelled weapons. They
9 had white ribbons around their sleeves, around their arm, so that all
10 sides could tell who was who. People who came from outside didn't know
11 whether I was Ibro, Marko, or Janko. So somebody had to point that out
12 to them.
13 Q. Thank you. In your testimony in the Milosevic case, you said
14 that the JNA did not mistreat anyone; is that correct?
15 A. Other than asking for the weapons to be handed over, the
16 Yugoslav People's Army did not create any other problems. When the JNA
17 left, all hell broke loose in Vlasenica.
18 Q. Thank you. We Serbs and Muslims, are we racially different?
19 A. Well, could you please clarify that when you say "racially."
20 Q. Well, can you immediately tell who is a Serb and who is a Muslim?
21 A. No, you cannot.
22 Q. So how were you able to recognise that there were no Muslims in
23 Musa's unit, other than Musa himself being a Muslim?
24 A. I did not know if there were any Muslims or Serbs in Musa's unit.
25 I met one soldier, and I had contact with that one soldier. With the
1 departure of the JNA from Vlasenica, I know that the only people in
2 Vlasenica who had weapons were Serbs.
3 Q. In your statement of the 5th to the 7th of October, 1994, you
4 said that you did not see Muslims in Musa's unit, only Serbs; is that
6 A. Could you please show that to me so that I can see it?
7 Q. Well, then we have to call it up in e-court. We have to call up
8 that statement of yours. And while we're looking for that page, would
9 you please tell us: Muslim and Serb soldiers at the time, in the JNA and
10 in the reserve forces, did they wear identical uniforms?
11 A. Well, other than the navy, the whole of the JNA wore identical
13 Q. And you say that you didn't know if there were any Muslims with
14 weapons and if the Muslims were organised.
15 A. In Vlasenica, no, they weren't.
16 Q. Still -- well, can we please look at ERN 0021876. This is your
17 statement to the bureau for war crimes in Lukavica on the 14th of April,
18 1993. Page 3 of that statement, ERN 0021876.
19 You said that there was a hodza from Kuglici [phoen] who called
20 the Muslims via loudspeaker to hand over their weapons, and he went to
21 visit the Muslims who did have weapons; is that correct?
22 A. You said April 1993. In April 1993, I was in the camp. I was in
23 Batkovic camp.
24 MS. EDGERTON: And, Your Honour, we've not got that statement
25 that Dr. Karadzic is asking the question about on the screen, so it's a
1 bit difficult for all of us to follow along. He's now asking about a
2 statement from the 14th of April, 1993, and this isn't it.
3 JUDGE KWON: I can't find that statement in his list.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can answer your question, sir.
5 With the occupation of Vlasenica, there was a police vehicle, a Golf, in
6 which Serb policemen put an imam, Hodza Munib Ahmetovic, to call on the
7 Muslim people to hand over their weapons. It's a well-known fact that a
8 large number of people had hunting weapons, both Serbs and Muslims.
9 People had licenses also for pistols. From the vehicle, accompanied by
10 armed persons, Munib called people to hand over their weapons. It's
11 true. I said that and I stand by that.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Did you know that Munib called those Muslims for whom he obtained
14 weapons or, rather, those who obtained weapons through the mosque where
15 he served?
16 A. Well, I don't know that Munib obtained weapons. This is
17 information that the SUP should have and not me.
18 Q. Can you see? Is this that statement of yours? It should be
19 third paragraph. Can we scroll up a little bit, please?
20 MS. EDGERTON: Could we have the cover page so that the witness
21 is satisfied that this is the document that Dr. Karadzic was referring
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. I apologise. It's not the 4th of April. Actually, the statement
25 was from August, the 4th of August, and not from the 8th of April. I
2 It's the Lukavac Bureau for War Crimes. This is when you
3 provided this statement; is that correct?
4 A. I am just looking for what you said. I'm trying to find it.
5 Q. It's on page 3, paragraph 3. You state that they were taken to
6 those Muslims who had weapons. This is the third paragraph:
7 "While I was in Vlasenica," it says here, "35 years, there is
8 Munib from Kuglici" --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We cannot see where it is
10 in the original.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. It's Alibegovic, right, isn't it?
13 A. This is Munib Ahmetovic.
14 Q. And where it says here 35 years, that he was coming by saying it
15 was pointless to put up resistance and that they heard and saw him going
16 to visit with the vehicle those Muslims who had weapons; is that correct?
17 A. Well, it says here while I was in Vlasenica during the day --
18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's ask for the witness to read
20 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. We can't -- I can't find that
21 passage -- Ms. Edgerton, did you find it?
22 MS. EDGERTON: I found it on the original, Your Honour. It's
23 the --
24 JUDGE KWON: In English.
25 MS. EDGERTON: But in the English I don't see it at all,
1 actually, and I wonder perhaps if we can go into the next page on the
2 English just to have a check before we go further. And just -- I can't
3 see even the page reference on the original for us to be able to, for the
4 transcript, identify where it appears in the original. So perhaps we
5 could make that a little bit smaller.
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes. I think I've found it. It's the second
7 penultimate paragraph.
8 THE ACCUSED: While I was still in Vlasenica." [No
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]
11 Q. "While I was still in Vlasenica, on the first day of the
12 occupation by the Chetniks, I heard from some people that the Vlasenica
13 imam Munib from Kuglici, about 35 years old, appealed to the Muslim
14 people through a loud speaker to surrender their weapons."
15 JUDGE KWON: We can read it. What is your question,
16 Mr. Karadzic?
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. So you were told that they -- that he took them to those Muslims
19 who had weapons; is that correct? This is what you said here.
20 A. Yes. This is what I said here.
21 Q. Thank you. And do you know that the hodza could do that because
22 weapons were brought in through the mosque, through the dzemat, and he
23 was distributing them to the resistant movement?
24 A. Sir, I don't know whether weapons were brought to the mosque.
25 The mosque should not be dealing with the weapons. I don't know if they
1 were distributed through the dzemat, I don't know. I don't know if the
2 hodza distributed the weapons to anyone, but I do know that those people
3 who had weapons had them legally. They had hunting rifles and pistols.
4 Q. Thank you. When you say that the first day of the Serb -- the
5 Chetnik occupation, what is occupation to you, is that from the
6 21st of April?
7 A. Yes, that is correct.
8 Q. So the legal, legitimate military force, the JNA, for you are
9 Chetniks and occupiers; is that correct?
10 A. The legal and the legitimate force which placed itself on the
11 side of one people, if I'm not mistaken, sir, that army should have been
12 on the side of each one of us, on my side and your side.
13 Q. And on ERN 0081-4559 you said that there were only Serbs in
14 Musa's unit, that there were no Muslims there. How did you know that?
15 JUDGE KWON: I think you asked that question earlier on today.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. And you said after the weapons were handed over the Serbs opened
19 the shops, and you also said that the JNA formed the Serbian municipality
20 of Vlasenica; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at -- just one
23 moment. 65 ter -- well, let's look at 1D3589, please.
24 MS. EDGERTON: Which wasn't on the Defence list.
25 JUDGE KWON: No.
1 MS. EDGERTON: But now, on looking at the document, I see it was
2 an associated exhibit by another number. Apologies, I was confused by
3 the lack of reference to the P number or the 65 ter number.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Do you see that this was written by the Crisis Staff on the
7 19th of April, 1992, that weapons should be handed over by citizens, not
8 citizens of Muslim ethnicity; is that correct?
9 A. Well, this talks about the decision to disarm citizens possessing
10 the firearms illegally, but the vehicles called upon Muslims citizens to
11 hand over their legal and illegal weapons. People of Serb ethnicity
12 walked around in Vlasenica armed with automatic rifles.
13 Q. You're talking about those who had responded to the call-up. Did
14 the Muslims respond to the call-up?
15 A. Which call-up? There was no call-up.
16 Q. And do you know that Izetbegovic declared general mobilisation on
17 the 4th of April?
18 A. Well, I don't know, because I wasn't a member of the SDA party.
19 So I wasn't really following that.
20 Q. But it wasn't a party call-up. It was a state call-up. The
21 Presidency of the B and H, in opposition to the position of the Serbian
22 President, on Bajram, proclaimed a general mobilisation of the TO and the
23 police reserves. Did you know that?
24 A. Sir, I belonged to the security station for fire-fighting
25 according to the wartime assignment. I was not a member of any military
1 assignment, and police was always part of the MUP or the SUP. I don't
2 know if the call-up was something that applied to them. I do know that I
3 did not receive any call-up summons in Vlasenica from the fire-fighting
4 station, whose member I was for a long number of years. I do know,
5 though, that my neighbours, Serbs in Vlasenica, were armed and that they
6 carried long-barrelled weapons.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at 65 ter --
8 THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused please be asked to repeat the
10 JUDGE KWON: Could you repeat the number, Mr. Karadzic.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 23115, 65 ter number.
12 MS. EDGERTON: That's P3214.
13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Can you see this document? You were probably shown the document
16 during the proofing, where you can see that before the arrival of the
17 JNA, the Crisis Staff of the Serbian municipality of Vlasenica decided to
18 activate the Serbian municipality of Vlasenica, which up until that time
19 was just proclaimed but was not activated, and that the reason for that
20 was that Muslim deputies and officials had left Vlasenica and there was
21 no formal government.
22 A. Sir, I do see this piece of paper, and I do see that that
23 Crisis Staff existed. I can see that the Serbian municipality of
24 Vlasenica was formed.
25 Q. Well, do you know that a Muslim one should have been formed and
1 there was a signature for that?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Well, then you're knowledge is not complete, Mr. Osmanovic; is
4 that right?
5 A. I did not really pay attention to the political aspect of the
6 matter. I was born, I lived and worked in that same Vlasenica, and we
7 never divided ourselves into Muslims, and we did not divide up our homes
8 or municipalities, the city, or the village like that.
9 Q. Thank you. Can we for a moment look at -- oh, no. This is
10 already later in May. All right. So it's not correct that the JNA
11 formed the Serbian municipality; is that right?
12 A. When the Yugoslav People's Army came to Vlasenica, then I saw
13 that the Serbian municipality of Vlasenica was formed. So with the
14 arrival of the JNA, that part, the Serbian municipality of Vlasenica was
15 formed, and the rest of the population, Muslims who were not in the
16 municipality, found out about it.
17 Q. But would you agree with me that this was two days before the
18 JNA's arrival?
19 A. Well, if we look at the dates, that would appear to be so.
20 Q. Thank you. Now, do you recall the declaration by the president
21 of the municipality, the joint municipality, which was later to become
22 the Serb municipality? Was that the declaration that you had in mind
23 when you said that there was a declaration that there should be
24 disarmament, that law and order should be re-established and so on?
25 A. Well, I'm just talking about the declaration which talked about
1 disarming, and as for the document itself, in written form, I've never
2 seen it.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. In your statement, you mention Dragisa Milakovic, who was a good
7 friend of yours, and that you were at his place when he received some
8 mail that had to do with mobilisation; correct?
9 A. I said that I was at his place when a uniformed man came to his
10 house with call-up papers calling him up to be mobilised.
11 Q. And he was supposed to distribute those call-up papers; correct?
12 A. Well, yes. Those call-up papers for a number of villages, Serb
13 villages in the municipality.
14 Q. Thank you. And he told you on that occasion that you should be
15 careful, that you had no idea who all was carrying weapons in those days,
16 all kinds of idiots; correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Do you also speak about Milakovic issuing passes for Muslims who
19 wanted to move around the municipality? If any Muslim wanted to walk
20 around a municipality or move about the municipality, Milakovic had to
21 issue them a permit -- a pass, whereas if they wanted it leave Vlasenica
22 permanently, then such a permit would have to be issued by the
23 Crisis Staff of the municipality; correct?
24 A. Well, for movement around Vlasenica town and the surrounding
25 lands, because there were some check-points, one at Bregovi and the other
1 at the very approaches to the town, at Novo Naselje, I was on the way --
2 Q. Would you please answer --
3 A. Please let me finish. One of the guards told me that I should
4 report to Dragisa Milakovic in order to be issued a pass if I wanted to
5 move and go from the town to my property, which was there. In other
6 words, from my place to my brother's place, whereas there was an office
7 within the municipality that issued permits for those people who wanted
8 to leave Vlasenica municipality.
9 Q. Thank you. So if Muslims wanted to till their fields and go out
10 of town with -- but remain within the municipality, Milakovic had to
11 issue the passes?
12 A. Well, yes. Not -- not just the town but for Vlasenica and the
13 surrounding villages. For instance, my brother lived in Piskavica and I
14 couldn't go to see him without such a permit or pass.
15 Q. Well, that's what you said in your statement. That's
16 65 ter 00685742, and you said the following: If Muslims wanted to work
17 in the field or go to a town within the territory of the municipality,
18 Milakovic had to issue them a pass. Vlasenica Muslims who wanted to
19 leave the town permanently had to go to the Crisis Staff in order issued
20 a permit to leave the town.
21 You mentioned this only in the context of Muslims. Now, were
22 they conscripts in the municipality?
23 MS. EDGERTON: Can we just go back a minute? There's no such
24 thing as 65 ter 0068-5742, and I just wonder what Dr. Karadzic was
25 referring to.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's ERN. I'm sorry. ERN page
2 0068574 -- it starts with a 0, and I believe this is page 3.
3 MS. EDGERTON: And what might that be an ERN page of, so that the
4 witness also knows what he might have said?
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well that's 740. That's the
6 document we had on the screen a moment ago. We had it just a moment ago.
7 That was the statement that this witness gave in Lukavica.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. While we're waiting for it to come up, Mr. Osmanovic, tell us,
10 please, did Muslims have to serve in the Serb army and the Serb
11 Territorial Defence?
12 A. Well, sir, as far as I know, they were disarmed. Those who did
13 possess weapons legally, I believe that they all had to return their
14 weapons, and none of them served and -- or were conscripts.
15 Q. Well, please just answer briefly. Were they conscripts and were
16 they considered as such, and were they supposed to also be issued a
17 statement confirming that by the military authorities, or did they just
18 need a permit from the civilian authorities?
19 A. Well, only from the civilian authorities.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I wonder if we're ever going
21 to get this document 0068-5742, ERN page 0068-5742. That's a statement,
22 but it starts with 40.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. While we're waiting for it to come up, Mr. Osmanovic, you
25 mentioned these permits only to refer -- when referring to Muslims;
2 A. Yes.
3 MS. EDGERTON: I'm sorry, but I'm now completely confused. I
4 finally found the ERN number of the document Dr. Karadzic was referring
5 to, and that was the witness's ICTY statement of 10 October 1994, not his
6 statement in Lukavica in 1993. So when Dr. Karadzic told the witness
7 what he had said in that statement in -- that he gave in Lukavica in
8 1993, I really don't know he was talking about now.
9 JUDGE KWON: Did you find the passage as well, Ms. Edgerton, in
10 that statement?
11 MS. EDGERTON: Not so far, but I'm still looking, Your Honour.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 3. So that would be ERN
13 ending with 742. Yes.
14 "On another occasion I wanted to visit," that's how the paragraph
15 begins, "... I wanted to visit my brother in the next town." So we are
16 supposed to find that part.
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Last paragraph on page 3, continuing to the
18 next page. And whether we are on proper page in B/C/S, I'm not sure.
19 MS. EDGERTON: No, we're not. We'll have to go over to the next
20 page so that the witness can see it in B/C/S.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. That's on the top of
22 the page. The first sentence at the beginning.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. "If Muslims wanted to work in the field or go to a town within
25 the municipality, Milakovic had to grant permission. Muslims in
1 Vlasenica who wanted to permanently leave the town had to go to the
2 Crisis Committee to get permission to leave Vlasenica."
4 A. Well, yes, that's what it says, but in Vlasenica there's only one
5 town. All the other settlements are just villages.
6 Q. Yes, but did you say this?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now get 65 ter --
10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the accused please
11 repeat the number.
12 JUDGE KWON: Could you repeat the number, Mr. Karadzic.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 23218, 65 ter 23218. 53218;
14 correct? Yes. 53218. Yes. Now we have it.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Look at this. Sir, would you take a look, Mr. Osmanovic, at this
17 document to see how the permits for leaving town were issued by the
18 competent authorities. If they are leaving town permanently, they had to
19 issue a statement saying that it was voluntary. So if we look at item 3,
20 it says:
21 "To be allowed to travel to other areas, conscripts of Serbian
22 nationality must have a permit from the municipal TO staff showing that
23 their leave has been granted."
24 And then it goes on to discuss the check-points. And then
25 paragraph 4 -- actually, we see it twice, so it's probably paragraph 5:
1 "Special attention is to be paid to individuals and armed persons
2 from other areas who want to enter the town. All individuals are to be
3 asked to show their licence to carry weapons and information on who they
4 are being sent to is to be checked.
5 "This particularly applies to individuals who have a history of
6 thieving or other deviant behaviour, often concealing themselves behind
7 their uniform."
8 MS. EDGERTON: This is P3218 referred to in the witness's
9 amalgamated statement at paragraph 58. So Dr. Karadzic is reading in a
10 document that the witness has previously seen.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Mr. Osmanovic, can you see that this actually applies to all
13 citizens with the exception of Serb conscripts? In other words, the
14 Muslims were not -- they didn't have to bring anything from the military
15 office, but the Serbs did.
16 A. Well, that's what it says there.
17 Q. But would you agree, Mr. Osmanovic, that in wartime or an
18 emergency it was necessary to -- it is necessary to control the movement
19 of individuals, especially conscripts, in order to make sure that they
20 weren't deserters, that they didn't have any background agendas of their
21 own and so on?
22 A. Well, I can only speak about the municipality of Vlasenica.
23 Everyone knew everyone. We knew what meals people had on any given day,
24 as it were. You are correct. It had to be checked, the streets and so
25 on. The situation had to be checked in wartime conditions, but at the
1 time, I could no longer see people of different ethnicities. At the
2 time, there was no police anymore, there were no municipal organs or
3 municipal government. Everything had a moniker added to it, Serbian,
4 so --
5 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat his last word.
6 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. The interpreters couldn't hear your
7 last word, Mr. Osmanovic. What is reflected in the transcript is:
8 "Everything had a moniker added to it, Serbian," and then it's missing.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, because everything was
10 Serbian, the Serbian municipality of Vlasenica, the Serb autonomous
11 district. There was no joint police anymore, no joint security organs.
12 Only one ethnicity was armed and that one ethnicity could move around.
13 There was a curfew, so that all the others were no longer welcome in that
14 town, although we were local. We were born there. Unfortunately, that's
15 how it remained.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. But, Mr. Osmanovic, in order to draw that kind of conclusion, you
18 have to look at the whole picture, not just part of it. Now, do you know
19 that the Muslims agreed to have their own municipality, whether they
20 would call it the Muslim municipality or Vlasenica, Bosniak municipality,
21 whatever, that's what was agreed, and that Muslims actually fled
23 A. I don't know anything about that.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now please take a look at
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Sir, you said a moment ago that you didn't see that there was a
3 threat of war --
4 MS. EDGERTON: Also not on the Defence list.
5 JUDGE KWON: You overlapped, Ms. Edgerton. Could you repeat,
6 Ms. Edgerton.
7 MS. EDGERTON: 1D4127 is not on the Defence list either.
8 JUDGE KWON: Then let us hear whether it's also part of
9 Prosecution associate -- no.
10 Mr. Karadzic, you're talking about disclosure violation and then
11 you are using a lot of unnoticed documents.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, I received this
13 document very late, and as for the statement, the amalgamated statement,
14 of Mr. Osmanovic was in such a format that I could not access it on my
15 computer, and also I received all the documents that were disclosed to me
16 at the very last moment. And just to add another thing, this is the same
17 document that I asked for earlier. It's that same document. So it's not
18 a new document.
19 Can we now see a bulletin of the Serb news agency. That's what
20 we have before us. Can we see the fourth page, please.
21 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Edgerton, I don't follow when Mr. Karadzic said
22 this is the document he asked for earlier.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I've already mentioned this
24 document earlier today, but it hadn't been uploaded. It's the same
25 document that I asked for at the very beginning of the cross-examination.
1 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
2 MS. EDGERTON: If I may, Your Honour, the amalgamated statement
3 was transmitted to Dr. Karadzic electronically in the same format these
4 statements are always provided to him. The documents referred to by the
5 witness in the amalgamated statement were cited in the draft statement
6 that was forwarded on the 12th of August. I can't see how he can
7 justifiably explain some last-minute disclosure in this regard and as a
8 justification for using an unnoticed document now.
9 JUDGE KWON: So you're objecting to using this document.
10 MS. EDGERTON: Yes. This time, yes, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE KWON: Very well. I will consult my colleagues.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, the Chamber will allow you to
14 continue, but in the future, please make sure that you give proper notice
15 to the Prosecution.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. We shall equally be
17 tolerant to the opposing side, but please believe we are really suffering
18 under the load of our burden.
19 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Karadzic please repeat the question.
20 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, the interpreters couldn't hear your
21 question to the witness.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I asked the witness whether it was
23 true that Rabija was a Muslim name.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. And I can also add: Did you now that Rabija Subic was a modern
1 Muslim woman, as probably you yourself were -- and she was the president
2 of the Socialist Party of BH?
3 A. I can say that Rabija Subic is a Muslim name. However, whether
4 she was a modern-oriented person, whether she was the president of that
5 particular party, I don't know.
6 Q. Please look at this public announcement coming from her party and
7 in the first section she says what she holds Mr. Izetbegovic responsible
8 for. But please focus on the last paragraph, where it says:
9 "We warn you about blood shedding and final tragedy of the
10 so-called independence of the BH, Mr. Izetbegovic, and we invite you to
11 act upon an example of Vlasenica and Bratunac where agreements between
12 Muslims and Serbs were made without a single bullet shot, without
13 violence, crime, and without terror."
14 And look at the top where it says out of these bullet numbers.
15 She's asking him whether he was aware that there was a Catholic-Germanic
16 conspiracy to sacrifice the Muslims in the Balkans. Can you see,
17 therefore, that there was an agreement that you know nothing about?
18 A. Well, sir, if I look at this paper produced by the Serbian news
19 agency SRNA, this is what it says, and it says, "We warn you about the
20 ultimate tragedy and blood shedding," and then it goes on to cite the
21 examples of Vlasenica and Bratunac. Vlasenica exactly went through this
22 bloody experience without a single bullet shot.
23 Q. Mr. Osmanovic, let us make this very accurate. This was not
24 written by the Serbian news agency, it was only published by it, but it
25 was written by the Socialist Party of BH. Secondly, it was written
1 before Vlasenica went through this bloody time, and it just says that it
2 was possible to avoid this bloody outcome by citing these examples.
3 A. I don't know about that.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted into evidence?
5 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Edgerton. Probably the Chamber does not need
6 your assistance.
7 MS. EDGERTON: I don't think, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE KWON: I don't see any basis to admit this.
9 MS. EDGERTON: I was looking to see if the witness had even at a
10 stretch confirmed something but I can't find it. Your Honours may
11 find -- and in all fairness I was looking to see if there might be some
12 contextual assistance, but I -- I don't take a position, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber will not admit this, Mr. Karadzic.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With all due respect, my position
15 is that this is a significant document which demonstrates that the
16 witness knows only half the truth and that if he had given statement
17 knowing the full truth would have been -- it would have been different.
18 The Serbian municipality of Vlasenica is not what -- all what it comes
19 to. It was something that was subject to an agreement.
20 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, the Chamber gave its ruling. If you'd
21 like to tender that document, please call another witness.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. You said that the JNA had left their equipment behind. Do you
25 know that Colonel Tacic took a rocket brigade away, something that I will
1 never forgive him. He took it from Mount Romanija in spite of all the
2 opposition from the Serbian side. The Serbs, the Muslims, and the Croats
3 equally put a ban on taking any equipment away.
4 A. I don't know who Colonel Tacic was and where he took this rocket
5 unit. I do know, though, that in Vlasenica the weapons remained that had
6 been in the position of the JNA, that every single Serb in Vlasenica was
7 armed overnight.
8 Q. Didn't you yourself name a Muslim village that was also armed,
9 but it was loyal to Yugoslavia as a state? And I'm talking about
10 Brezevo Polje.
11 A. Esteemed sir, Brezevo Polje is 150 kilometres away. It's on the
12 River Sava near Brcko.
13 Q. I'm not denying that, but do you agree that you said that you
14 knew that they had weapons, that they were Muslims who were loyal and who
15 took part in fighting against the Croats?
16 A. I heard at Batkovic that they were guarding their village from
17 the Croats and I heard it from those very same people that the Serbs
18 brought later to Batkovici.
19 Q. But, Mr. Osmanovic, nobody disarmed the people of Brezevo Polje
20 for as long as they were loyal to the common state, and they had been
21 given weapons by the JNA?
22 A. I don't know who armed them. According to the stories I heard
23 from people from Brezevo Polje at Batkovic camp was that they were
24 regarding the embankment on the Sava to prevent incursions from Croatia.
25 Allegedly, all of them were later brought to Batkovici. Some were
1 released sooner, some later, but the whole group from Brezevo Polje was
2 brought to Batkovici.
3 Q. Mr. Osmanovic, I don't have time to go into details. Now let's
4 clarify this: You say that in May 1992, the Muslims were restricted in
5 withdrawing money to the amount between 5.000 and 10.000 dinars?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Was that a Yugoslavia dinar still at the time?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Is it true that it was made in the -- that it was printed in
11 A. Yes, at the central bank of Yugoslavia.
12 Q. Is it true that the payments of both dinar and for X amount had
13 been introduced back in 1989 by Ante Markovic?
14 A. I don't know about the dinars. I know about the foreign exchange
16 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Is it true that it was necessary to transport the printed money,
19 the dinars, to Vlasenica during war?
20 A. Sir, I was not involved in any transportation of money. I didn't
21 work for a bank.
22 Q. But, sir, the shortage of cash had nothing to do with religion.
23 This lack was called -- caused by the fact because it -- the money was
24 printed in a foreign country and there was a border installed.
25 A. If the money was short, then it was short for everyone.
1 Q. Therefore, as of the 6th of April, when war broke out in
2 Bosnia-Herzegovina, up until the 22 May, you didn't face any problems;
4 A. That's right, except for the curfew.
5 Q. And can you tell us whether you were arrested on the 22nd of May?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Were you arrested at home or some place else?
8 A. I was brought to the police station for the first time when I
9 tried to withdraw money, and the second time I was arrested on the
10 22nd of May at home.
11 Q. And when was the first time?
12 A. I can't remember the date.
13 Q. And then you say that you were detained in a solitary confinement
14 for six days; is that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. However, in another statement you say that you were released and
17 that you were requested to report to them on a daily basis and that you
18 were arrested again on the 28th of May. Which of these -- this
19 information is correct?
20 A. I don't know. Show me the paper.
21 Q. Well, for example, in your statement -- just a moment. In your
22 statement given on the 8th of March, 2010, that's IT-08-91 case --
23 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Karadzic please slowly read the
24 numbers. We are really struggling.
25 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, slow down when you read out some
1 numbers or passages from the statement. Could you repeat.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So the case number is IT-08-91-T,
3 and page is 7303. It was an examination conducted on the 8th of March,
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. On that occasion you said that they came to your house to arrest
7 you and that you were taken to a room where there were another
8 20 Muslims.
9 A. May I look at this document in an electronic form?
10 Q. Well, let it be called up. This is a court document. It's case
11 number IT-08-91-T. It's a trial.
12 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, we do not have every document in our
13 e-court. What's the -- what's the e-court -- 65 ter number?
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With Court indulgence, we managed
15 to identify --
16 MS. EDGERTON: I think Dr. Karadzic is referring to
17 Mr. Osmanovic's testimony in the Stanisic and Zupljanin proceedings, and
18 that's 65 ter 2227A.
19 JUDGE KWON: 22278 or A?
20 MS. EDGERTON: The letter A.
21 JUDGE KWON: That's a different thing. Page number,
22 Mr. Karadzic?
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 7303. This is 7299. We have to go
24 five pages ahead.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. It says here:
2 "[In English] At the station I was put in a room where there were
3 other 20 Muslim men."
4 [Interpretation] And then you go on to say --
5 JUDGE KWON: Let us find the passage first.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It says:
7 "[In English] ... and Zoran came to my house to arrest me. At
8 the station I was put in the room where there were other 20 Muslim men."
9 [Interpretation] Once we locate the names, the problem will be
11 JUDGE KWON: This is a part of question?
12 THE ACCUSED: No. No. The answer was:
13 "Bastah Rade and Zoran came to my house to arrest me."
14 [Interpretation] Can we look briefly at the statement given
15 between the 5th and 7th October 1994.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Look at this.
18 "[In English] In your written statement, you stated --"
19 Can we have the previous, please. No. Which was prior to the
20 last change. Okay. Okay. Okay.
21 "In your testimony, in your written statement, you state that the
22 police arrested you, brought you to the SJB building and placed you in a
23 gaol cell along with up to 20 other Muslim men."
24 [Interpretation] So how do you say that you were confined in
25 solitary confinement?
1 A. Well, it was a solitary confinement. It was renovated into like
2 a gaol. We were standing like sardines, the 20 of us. This was in the
3 Vlasenica police station. The first floor, we were in a room that was
4 turned into a cell from a toilet, and the second floor, it was turned
5 from a weapons storage room into a cell.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Karadzic please repeat the question
7 and the witness the answer.
8 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. You are overlapping so quickly the
9 interpreters have -- are struggling to follow you.
10 Mr. Karadzic, the -- before you repeat the question, how much
11 longer do you have for this witness?
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, I need a whole
13 session. My hands are tied, really. I cannot allow so many
14 inconsistencies, incorrect things, and untruths to pass. So I kindly ask
15 to be given enough time.
16 JUDGE KWON: We'll have a break for 20 minutes and resume at
17 20 to 11.00.
18 --- Recess taken at 10.21 a.m.
19 --- On resuming at 10.42 a.m.
20 JUDGE KWON: Before you continue, Mr. Karadzic, Judge Baird has a
21 question for the witness.
22 JUDGE BAIRD: During the course of your evidence earlier this
23 morning, Dr. Karadzic asked you:
24 "Did you know the SDA was arming the Muslims and that the
25 Patriotic League in every municipality already had their staff and unit?"
1 And your answer was:
2 "I don't know that it existed in Vlasenica."
3 Do you recollect that?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
5 JUDGE BAIRD: Now, the question carried two components. The
6 first component: Did you know the SDA was arming the Muslims? Can you
7 give us your answer to that component?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for the SDA party, I was not a
9 member of the party. I wasn't, and none of my family was, so I don't
10 know if the party armed anyone or not. But with the hand-over of the
11 weapons in Vlasenica, they said that there was a certain number of
12 firearms, Kalashnikovs, with people who were members of the SDA party.
13 This is something that I saw on television. This was shown by
14 Television Novi Sad. They showed footage taped in the police station in
16 JUDGE BAIRD: Thank you very much indeed.
17 Dr. Karadzic.
18 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, as I emphasised several times before,
19 the Chamber has -- has been carefully considering the amount of time that
20 is appropriate for your cross-examination of the witnesses, and in this
21 case two hours is, in the Chamber's view, more than sufficient. I find
22 it quite inappropriate for you to raise this issue continuously while you
23 keep spending time exploring irrelevant or marginally relevant issues.
24 You will have 40 minutes to conclude this, your cross-examination
25 of this witness.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Witness, were you arrested the way you describe in your statement
4 of the 27th of July, 1993, or were you arrested in a different manner?
5 A. Could you please show me where I said that I was arrested on the
6 27th of July?
7 Q. And you were taken to solitary confinement where you were alone.
8 A. I was alone in that room in the beginning. Then they took me to
9 another room where there was about 20 people.
10 Q. How long were you alone?
11 A. I cannot remember exactly how long I was alone. If you have
12 written proof, could you please show it to me?
13 Q. Were you arrested at home or were you arrested on the street?
14 A. I was brought in for the first time from in front of the bank and
15 the second time I was arrested at my house, and I never returned to my
16 house again.
17 Q. When was it you were arrested in front of the bank?
18 A. I cannot remember when I was detained at the bank. I tried to
19 withdraw a certain amount of money but Stevo Mumovic picked me up from in
20 front of the bank and took me away. The second time, I was taken away by
21 Bastah from my family house, to which, to my regret, I never, ever
23 Q. What were you suspected of?
24 A. I was asked where the gun or the cannon was. They asked me who
25 had weapons, whom -- to whom had the party issues weapons. Well, since a
1 cannon is not a needle that you can hide somewhere or put it in your
2 pocket, and in view of the fact that I was not a member of the party, I
3 really wasn't able to answer. Dragisa Milakovic confirm the information
4 that I was his acquaintance, I was not a member of the party, and that I
5 was not a person who was armed.
6 Q. And then were you released or were you held for these six days
7 like it says in the statement?
8 A. Could you please show me the statement?
9 Q. All right.
10 "[In English] Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, 2nd Corps
11 command, SP number 10/101-114-6/93."
12 [Interpretation] Of the 28th of July, 1993, you said there that
13 you spent six days alone in detention. "Nobody mistreated us, but I did
14 not get any food for those six days, and then Boro Mijic came and brought
15 us kebabs." Is that correct?
16 A. It's true that Boro Mijic brought kebabs, but I would like to see
18 Q. Sir, I don't have time. You gave four statements and you
19 testified four times plus you gave statements to the Muslim authorities.
20 How am I supposed to have time to go through every inconsistency and
21 incorrect thing that you have said?
22 JUDGE KWON: That's quite an improper statement. If the witness
23 wants to see his statement, you have to -- you're obliged to show it to
24 the witness.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, all right. Can we have
1 1D04119 then, please.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. That is your statement of the 27th of July, 1993. On the first
4 page do you see: "On the 22nd of May, at about 0800 hours, policeman
5 Bastah took me out of my house." And then on the 28th of May, this guy
6 came in and brought you kebabs and yogurt; is that correct?
7 A. Yes, it's true that that is what it states.
8 Q. Thank you. However, in a different place you say something else.
9 This is your statement. Just one moment. This is the District Court
10 Tuzla. No, this is the State Security Service. Just a minute.
11 On the 27th of July, 1993, you stated at the Lukavica Municipal
12 Court -- no, no. On the 4th of August, 1993. 4th of August, 1993. I
13 apologise. It's page 0190-8934.
14 You said --
15 JUDGE KWON: If it is a statement of 27th of July, this must be
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is the SUP, and this is the
18 court of the 4th of August, 4th of August. We had that a little bit
19 earlier as well.
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes, 1D4120.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. And you state there that on the 22nd of May, the three of you
23 were picked up from the street, and you were interrogated at the police
24 station by Ljuban Stanisic, each one of us was slapped once or twice, and
25 then you were freed on condition that you report every 24 hours back to
1 them. So what is correct here?
2 A. I was arrested and detained on the 22nd of May. Probably there's
3 a mistake here, sir, as far as the dates are concerned. And it's not the
4 Lukavica court, because I never gave a statement for the Lukavica court.
5 Q. The bureau for war crimes.
6 A. Yes, but that's not a court.
7 Q. All right. So were you released on condition that you are to
8 report back every 24 hours?
9 A. When I was brought in, the first day I was released and told to
10 report on my way back or to work. I was questioned by Ljuban Stanisic.
11 Q. All right. On the 28th of May you say that you were arrested by
12 Dragan Bastah at your house. So from the 22nd of May until the
13 28th of May, were you conditionally released?
14 A. Well, I'm just saying now that this is a mistake in the dates. I
15 was taken away from my family home by Dragan Bastah, aka Czar. Somebody
16 called him Dragan, som people called him Predrag, but everybody called
17 him Czar. I was conditionally released.
18 Q. You said that you were arrested on the 22nd of May, that you were
19 confined to solitary for six days and that -- once you said that you were
20 arrested on the street and the second time you said that you were
21 arrested at home. And then from the answer that you were conditionally
22 released, this was not in the transcript, and I really have a problem
23 with time.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excuse me Excellencies, but with so
25 many statements from this witness I must have problems with time, because
1 I have to show everything the witness is not consistent.
2 JUDGE KWON: You could have started your cross-examination with
3 this question. You spent -- wasted a lot of time in the previous
4 session. Please get on with your cross-examination.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. The first time you were brought in was on the 22nd of May.
7 A. The first time I was brought in from in front of the bank. The
8 second time I was taken in from my house. There is a mistake in the
10 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Karadzic repeat his question, please.
11 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, could you repeat your question.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. You were conditionally released after -- actually, you were
14 released on condition that you report in after you were asked about the
15 cannon and other weapons.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did you think that the fact that they had confiscated a
18 Kalashnikov from a friend of yours from a check-point could have made you
19 suspicious as well?
20 A. Well, I don't know. I wasn't armed. I wasn't a member of the
21 party. I could not have been in possession of a cannon, so I don't see
22 any reason why that would be so. However, everybody was suspicious.
23 Q. Did you say that perhaps they suspected you because your friend
24 at a check-point had a Kalashnikov confiscated from him?
25 A. Mensur Smajic handed in a rifle. He was a colleague of mine. He
1 told me that. I didn't know that he had the weapon.
2 Q. So he did not hand it over, but it was found on him at the
4 A. Well, I don't know if he handed it in or if it was confiscated at
5 the check-point. I was asked if I knew where Mensur Smajic got a gun
6 from because they said that we socialised.
7 Q. So was that the basis for you being brought in; is that right?
8 A. No, I wouldn't say that that was the only basis for my being
9 brought in, because they were looking for some kind of cannon. They were
10 asking who was arming people, who was distributing weapons, who was
11 selling weapons. Since I was not involved with that and I never had
12 anything like that, any need for that in my life, I was not able to
13 answer any of those questions. But they could have found a thousand
14 reasons to bring me in.
15 Q. But they didn't ask you about a thousand reasons but they
16 specifically asked you about the gun and the piece of weapon found on
17 your friend.
18 A. They also asked me about the street guard since Dragan Milakovic
19 had confirmed that I had never been either a member of the party or
20 armed, and I didn't even participate in those guards. I was most of the
21 time in his company. That is what saved my skin.
22 Q. Is it true that back at the time where there was joint police and
23 joint patrols, the Muslims had their own check-points on the way to Drum
24 village, and they had their own guards?
25 A. The village of Drum is populated by the Muslims alone with the
1 exception of two Serb houses. It is true that there was a check-point
2 manned by the Muslims, but whether they were armed or not, I did not see
4 Q. Thank you. You said that in Zaklopaca, grenades with incendiary
5 phosphorous were used, which as you well know did not exist in the JNA
7 A. Incendiary weapons do exist, and it existed in the arsenal of the
9 Q. You spoke about phosphorous grenades. Did the JNA have these
10 kind of grenades?
11 A. Can you please show me where I said that it was a phosphorous
12 grenade? I only said that it was incendiary ammunition.
13 Q. And you never mentioned white phosphorous?
14 A. I may have offered an explanation as to what it might have been,
15 but I would like to see that in my statement.
16 Q. So you mentioned the white phosphorous only as part of your
17 explanation of what it might have been but not of what it was?
18 A. I would like to see my statement. I don't want to speculate.
19 Q. Did you know that no houses or anything were burnt in Zaklopaca?
20 A. Four houses on the entry point of Zaklopaca were burnt, and all
21 the population was annihilated.
22 Q. And those four houses were facing the separation line; right?
23 A. There was no separation line there. When you go from Zaklopaca
24 towards Milici, you come across the Serbian village of Podgora, the
25 village of Bojanic is above Zaklopaca, then Gornji Zalukovik, then there
1 is Tabana on the other side, another Serb village.
2 Q. Thank you. In your statement given 5 to 7 October, 1994, that
3 before the JNA had come to Vlasenica, at the crossroads between the road
4 and pavement, I -- you said that you thought that at the beginning the
5 village of Drum was better armed.
6 A. Yes, that's what I said, and I stand by it. I said that of the
7 whole population, only young people remained. Unfortunately, that did
8 not apply to Vlasenica.
9 Q. Please do not expand your answers to cover other items, because
10 that will take much more time.
11 Can we now look at page 0018-4561, where you speak about
12 white phosphorous. So 0018-4561, page 4557. The date is the
13 10th of October.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 4557. That's not the statement we
16 MS. EDGERTON: Well, yes, it is. That's his statement of
17 10 October 1994, to the ICTY.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 00619. And the Serbian page
19 is 0018 -- actually, this is an English page, 0018-4561.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Sir, can you see in the English version where you speak about
22 Zaklopaca and the phosphorous grenades?
23 A. I can see it in the B/C/S version, and I said here when the JNA
24 came --
25 MS. EDGERTON: I'm sorry, Your Honours, for my colleagues in the
1 booth, could Mr. Osmanovic slow down a little bit as he reads, please.
2 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Let us find the passage first.
3 MS. EDGERTON: In the B/C/S version, it's the full paragraph in
4 the middle of the page on the left-hand side, and it's the second full
5 paragraph in the middle of the page on the right-hand side, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes. What is your question, Mr. Karadzic.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. That's what you heard. You don't know about this. You only
9 heard of it, and you incorporated that into your statement.
10 A. That's what it says.
11 Q. Now, as for these ribbons, Mr. Osmanovic, why should one put a
12 ribbon around their sleeves?
13 A. All the local Serbs of Vlasenica wore those white ribbons as a
14 sign of recognition.
15 Q. Uh-huh, so it means there were another army wearing the same
16 uniforms and the only way to distinguish between the two was based on
17 those ribbons?
18 A. That's not true.
19 Q. How do you know that?
20 A. Because nobody else was either uniformed or armed.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go briefly into private
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
24 [Private session]
11 Page 17998 redacted. Private session.
12 [Open session]
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 18th of June, I was
14 transferred from the municipal prison to Susica camp, and then on the
15 30th of June, I was transferred from Susica to Batkovic camp.
16 Q. In your statements you mention this hodza as well as other
17 Muslims and you label them as traitors.
18 A. Please let us be specific. In what way did I label this hodza
19 and other Muslims as traitors? I did say that hodza called upon people
20 via a megaphone to surrender their weapons, but where did I say that he
21 was a traitor, among other things?
22 Q. Do you think that what you said about hodza was a positive thing,
23 that it was all right for him to say that any resistance would be futile?
24 A. I think that he was forced to say that.
25 Q. Did you --
1 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, that's too fast. Too fast.
2 Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
3 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, we don't have any remote reference
4 about where this whole line of questioning has been drawn from, and I
5 think it would be of assistance to be directed to any comments by the
6 witness in previous statements or testimonies regarding the hodza. It's
7 a whole line of questioning. We don't know where it comes from, yet
8 Dr. Karadzic says it comes from his previous statements.
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We demonstrated that he mentioned
11 hodza in his statement, and I'm asking the witness whether it was
12 something positive about hodza or was he implicitly criticising him.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I wasn't criticising. I just
14 think that he was forced to do that.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Is it true that in Batkovic, at least three Muslims were enjoying
17 a sort of privileged position that were in charge of taking prisoners to
18 perform labour and sometimes went out to carry out looting?
19 A. Yes, that's correct.
20 Q. What's the name -- what is the name of those people?
21 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please slowly tell us the
23 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Osmanovic, please pause before you start
24 answering the question, and the interpreters this time could not hear
25 your answer, in particular the names of these people.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right. There were three of
2 them, Dzemal Zahirovic, aka Spajzer, and Django, a Roma from Zenica.
3 Then Bekric Esad, aka Policeman, and the third one was Fikret of
4 Brezevo Polje.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Mm-hmm. So it seems, according to you, that Smajlovic was
7 appointed as a guard or a chief in another building?
8 A. Well, that's how he behaved, as a person in charge. He was the
9 only one among the prisoners who had his private car. He was the only
10 person who went in and out of the camp whenever he pleased. And that was
11 Smajlovic of Brezevo Polje.
12 Q. And in another statement you said that he slept in the same
13 building and elsewhere you say that he slept in a separate building.
14 A. At the beginning, he had different sleeping quarters from the
15 other detainees. He was the only one who had a collapsible bed on which
16 he slept. He was the only one who had unlimited access to everything.
17 Q. Thank you. Is it true that Zahirovic led groups into the fields
18 to perform work?
19 A. Yes. It is true that Zahirovic led the groups initially to work
20 the fields and then later to Koraj to plunder the Muslim villages.
21 Q. To plunder the Muslim villages?
22 A. Yes. To plunder of Muslim village Koraj. Trucks, tractors,
23 other machinery were driven away. Furniture was collected. Everything
24 was done in the same way in Svinjari and other villages, and the houses
25 were left empty.
1 Q. And he took other prisoners with him?
2 A. They were escorted by armed guards. He was the one who
3 designated who was going to be in the group and he acted as the group
5 Q. Is Zahirovic a Muslim?
6 A. Yes, he is. He's a Roma of Muslim ethnicity.
7 Q. These Muslims from Vlasenica and other places who enjoyed
8 different treatment believed that you who did not enjoy this treatment --
9 blamed you for the conflict with the Serbs and did they resent that?
10 A. Those who were together with me experienced the same things as I
11 did. There was no need for us to be angry at one another. All we needed
12 was to survive and get out of there.
13 Q. Whenever you went to perform labour, you very precisely noted in
14 your statement of 27th June 1993, in Tuzla, as to the exact deployment of
15 the Serbian troops and weapons.
16 A. Yes. In the sector of Majevica.
17 Q. Thank you. I have to skip things in order to stick to the time.
18 JUDGE KWON: You have five minutes, Mr. Karadzic.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. In your statements you said that after the events in Bijeljina
21 where you say it was declared that Arkan had come to prevent conflicts;
22 is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And then after Zvornik there were refugees going to Kladanj,
25 Muslim refugees going to Kladanj; is that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And were there Serb refugees coming from Kladanj going to
3 Sekovici and Vlasenica?
4 A. I don't know about Sekovici, but I know that in the secondary
5 school in Vlasenica, when we were brought back from prison I saw a number
6 of Serb ethnic -- ethnic Serb refugees who were billeted at the school.
7 I didn't see them when I left there.
8 Q. Is it correct that in your statement of 8th of August or actually
9 the 4th of August, 1993, 1D04121, stated that in March until May, the
10 Muslims from the Vlasenica municipality held meetings which you attended
11 and at which it was concluded that you would need to be in a state of
13 A. Yes, it's correct that I did attend one such meeting. It was in
14 my neighbourhood. No one was armed, but we were told to be in a state of
15 readiness with others. I emphasise "with others," because other groups
16 were preparing to come to Vlasenica. Local Serbs were never mentioned.
17 Q. Did you state that you knew that earlier weapons were shipped in
18 and that it was supposed to be distributed to the Muslims in the same
20 A. I did hear about a shipment of weapons. I don't know who these
21 weapons were distributed to, though.
22 Q. Is it correct that on the first page of that statement you said
23 that in late February, the weapons with secretly brought in on two
24 occasions to Vlasenica, in Zastava trucks, intended for Muslims?
25 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, I'm sorry, but I have the statement
1 of the 4th of August, 1993, in front of me, and I can't find anything
2 that bears any resemblance to any of the questions that Dr. Karadzic
3 asserts the witness said in that statement. I wonder if he needs to
4 double-check the date.
5 JUDGE KWON: I hope he can come back to you.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The 8th of August. The 8th of
7 August. The 8th of August, and we have that now in e-court.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am sorry, but this here at the
9 top is not my name or my surname.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. I apologise. But you were at the same meeting with this man?
12 A. It is not my name or my surname.
13 Q. But you were at this meeting.
14 A. I did attend one meeting. I did say that. But this is not my
16 Q. Very well. And is it correct that in Mustafa Zildzic's garage
17 weapons were transported with a PZ car?
18 A. Mustafa Zildzic's garage?
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. Well, this is not my statement. Can you please give me my
22 Q. And the security organ of the 2nd Corps, did you say to them that
23 you were not mistreated by anyone?
24 A. I was not mistreated by anyone when I was at home. I said that
25 the last time you asked me that.
1 Q. And for the six days when you were in prison, from the
2 22nd of May, that nobody mistreated you. Pages 5, 6, and that is
4 Do you recall giving this statement?
5 A. Well, just let me take a look for a second. Yes.
6 Q. It states on page 1 that nobody mistreated you; is that correct?
7 A. It means that nobody mistreated me at the beginning.
8 JUDGE KWON: Why don't you read it -- why don't you read the
9 remainder of that sentence?
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I cannot find it,
11 Your Excellency. I have to rush.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nobody maltreated me for six days.
13 JUDGE KWON: "Nobody maltreated me, but I was given no food for
14 six days."
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Yes. And now I'm asking him about -- about -- about physical
18 A. Well, the first day that I was brought in there was no physical
20 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, now it's time for you to come to your
21 last question.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Is it correct that you said that you recognise that most of the
24 policemen who were dealing with the prisoners were from the reserve
25 forces and were not professional policemen?
1 A. They were not part of the professional work-force earlier.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Karadzic.
4 Ms. Edgerton, do you have any re-examination?
5 MS. EDGERTON: Just one if I may, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please.
7 Re-examination by Ms. Edgerton:
8 Q. Mr. Osmanovic, today at pages 30 and -- 30 to 31, lines 25 of
9 page 30, over 4 of page 31, Dr. Karadzic and you were talking about
10 shortage of cash in Vlasenica, and Dr. Karadzic said that:
11 "The shortage of cash had nothing to do with religion. This lack
12 was caused by the fact that the money was printed in a foreign country
13 and there was a border installed."
14 And your answer was:
15 "If the money was short, then it was short for everyone."
16 And do you remember that question and answer?
17 A. I do, yes.
18 Q. Was the money, in fact, short for everyone?
19 A. I wouldn't say that, Madam Prosecutor. I wouldn't say that the
20 money was short for everybody. I watched my Serb neighbours withdraw
21 unlimited quantities of money. They could withdraw unlimited quantities
22 both in the form of checks or cash, but it was limited as far as I was
23 concerned. I was subject to limitations, as well as my colleagues of
24 Muslim ethnicity.
25 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you. Nothing further.
1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I -- may I just ask the witness
3 to be more specific?
4 Further Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
5 Q. [Interpretation] Who received more money? We're going to obtain
6 bank records which would indicate that it was limited for everybody.
7 A. People of Serb ethnicity --
8 Q. Name?
9 A. Well, I'm just saying it was limited for Serb -- ethnic Serbs.
10 But you can obtain the records, go ahead.
11 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
12 MS. EDGERTON: Now, Your Honour, I'm sorry, there -- I wonder if
13 we could just go back to the last sentence in Dr. Karadzic's redirect.
14 The witness is said to have said, "Well, I'm just saying it was limited
15 for ethnic Serbs," and I just --
16 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: It wasn't limited
17 for ethnic Serbs but it was limited for everyone else.
18 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you to my colleagues for the correction.
19 JUDGE KWON: No, just -- yes, Mr. Karadzic.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The Defence has a need to test the
21 assertions of the witness. If it is a neighbour, then that neighbour has
22 a name.
23 JUDGE KWON: You put the question and the witness has answered
24 the question.
25 Mr. Osmanovic, that concludes your evidence. The Chamber would
1 like to express its gratitude to you for coming to The Hague to give it.
2 Now you are free to go. Have a safe journey back home.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
4 [The witness withdrew]
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I address the Chamber before
6 the next witness comes in, in public session.
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It will take a few minutes. I
9 would kindly ask for your patience. I would like to say that this coming
10 witness gave a number of interviews and statements to the OTP which are
11 quite inconsistent, and in line with the other evidence and also with
12 exhibits. (redacted)
14 MR. TIEGER: Mr. President. Mr. President.
15 JUDGE KWON: That's improper. We go into private session.
16 [Private session]
11 Page 18009 redacted. Private session.
19 [Open session]
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We go into open session. Yes. Yes,
21 Mr. Karadzic.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. What I would like to
23 say is that over 95 per cent of witnesses are testifying pursuant to
24 92 ter or 92 bis. There are very few live witnesses. With witnesses who
25 provided a number of statements and testified a number of times,
1 amalgamated statements are a creation of the Prosecution. They're very
2 selective and present only matters that suit the OTP. In our system,
3 this could not happen, because the investigative judge would insist on
4 objectivity and would obtain elements important for both sides.
5 I understand that the adversarial system is different. We're not
6 used to such a system, but if we are affected by that system, which is
7 foreign and unusual to us, then we must not forget the right to equality
8 of arms. But there can be no equality of arms if I have so little time
9 and ability to prepare to rebut statements and documents that accompany
10 the testimony of such witnesses and if I'm not given time to finish that
11 job completely. That is why I believe that it is a question -- all these
12 questions, 92 bis, where the witness don't come, 92 ter, where the
13 witnesses are there to very ambitiously retell the indictment and the
14 indictment is offered up as proof accompanied by a protected witness, all
15 of that, I'm afraid, is something that is creating a precedent, which
16 would be something very unfavourable for future proceedings or the
17 jurisprudence would in theory very soon be condemned because of the way
18 these proceedings are conducted pursuant to these rules are prejudicial
19 absolutely to the Defence.
20 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, again you always go back to that issue
21 all the time. Again I emphasise the Chamber carefully considers all
22 the -- all the factors in deciding the proper amount of time that is
23 appropriate for your cross-examination of the witnesses.
24 As I explained to you earlier on, you don't have to explore every
25 single issue with every witness. The Chamber is aware of the fact that
1 you are a self-represented accused who is not a lawyer. For that reason,
2 we give you a certain latitude both when assessing the amount of time to
3 be given for your cross-examination and when assessing how your
4 cross-examination is going. However, you cannot continue to make
5 unreasonable demands.
6 You have to take some responsibility for the fact that you have
7 chosen to represent yourself, which carries with it certain burdens and
8 implications. As to the efficient way to conduct your cross-examination,
9 please consult your legal advisors.
10 For the next witness we go into -- we'll hear the evidence in
11 closed session.
12 MR. TIEGER: That's right, Mr. President. And --
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just add something,
15 JUDGE KWON: Not this time, Mr. Karadzic.
16 MR. TIEGER: We'll some need time both for the Registrar's
17 preparation and also to make the transition for the computers here.
18 JUDGE KWON: And I need to hear the confirmation from the
19 Registry that the maximum amount of time we can go in one go is hundred
20 minutes, 1 hour and 40 minutes in terms of tape.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You didn't answer, Excellency, to
22 my request for the witness to testify viva voce. That would only be the
23 third such witness. The third, only the third witness that would testify
25 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, at this moment I don't see any reason
1 we would reconsider our decision to hear the witness pursuant to
2 Rule 92 ter. As in the previous cases, things may change depending upon
3 the answers given by the witness when he was asked about his previous
4 statement, but that is something we have to see. At this moment, the
5 Chamber is not minded to change our previous attitude.
6 We'll have a break, take a break for half an hour, and resume at
7 quarter past, and I think we can go to the end of today's session from
8 there on. Quarter past 12.00.
9 --- Recess taken at 11.44 a.m.
10 --- On resuming at 12.17 p.m.
11 [Closed session]
11 Pages 18014-18045 redacted. Closed session.
12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,
13 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 31st day
14 of August, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.