Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 18289

 1                           Monday, 5 September 2011

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11  Pages 18290-18333 redacted. Closed session.















Page 18334

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20                           [Open session]

21             THE REGISTRAR:  We're now in open session.

22             JUDGE KWON:  I would like you to stay just a couple of minutes

23     but in the other seat, it's okay.  I have a question for you later on.

24     But the setting up the proceed -- and the [indiscernible] can start now.

25             I'll start with it right now.  Last week, Friday, I asked

Page 18335

 1     Ms. Edgerton whether document Exhibit P3276 concerned scheduled

 2     indictment A 11 which was removed from the indictment.  Ms. Edgerton

 3     responded that scheduled incident A 11 was duplicative of scheduled

 4     incident B 16.2, which remains in the indictment.  I have noted that

 5     incidents A 11 refers to less victims than incident B 16.2 and covers a

 6     broader time-period.  Further, the two incidents are worded in a way

 7     whereby it is now readily apparent that they are duplicative.  So having

 8     said that, I wonder whether you could explain how these two incidents are

 9     duplicative and whether the Chamber and the accused were notified of

10     this.  I will leave it either to you, Mr. Tieger or Ms. Edgerton.

11             MS. EDGERTON:  Your indulgence for one moment, then,

12     Your Honours, please.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

14                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

15             MS. EDGERTON:  I think I can answer now, Your Honours.  The

16     notification that Your Honours referred to is at page 17954, which is the

17     Registry court page number, of confidential appendix B to the pre-trial

18     brief that we filed in -- or on 19 May 2009 in respect of the dropped

19     scheduled incident A 11.1 as follows.  This incident (11.1) refers to the

20     same incident as schedule B 16.2.  Schedule B 16.2 is to be retained.  So

21     the notice was drawn in our pre-trial brief on 19 May 2009.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We'll take a look at that.  Thank you,

23     Ms. Edgerton.

24             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

25             JUDGE KWON:  And before we begin to hear the cross-examination of

Page 18336

 1     the next or the previous witness, there are a certain number of

 2     administrative matters.  First thing is a question for Mr. Robinson or

 3     Mr. Karadzic.  You will have noticed the Chamber legal staff has been

 4     receiving proofing notes of Prosecution witnesses at the same time you

 5     received them recently.  The legal staff then will forward these notes to

 6     the Judges of the Chamber.  Do you have any objection to this practice?

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  No.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 9             And could I -- inform us where we are in terms of the testimony

10     of Mr. Diego Arria.  My information is that you told the Chamber that

11     there had been some developments in relation to that and are seeking some

12     guidance from the Chamber.

13             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  In the most recent,

14     unofficial working witness list of remaining witnesses that the

15     Prosecution provided to us without being -- that being any binding

16     obligation upon them, they had indicated that Ambassador Aria was no

17     longer on their active witness list, which prompted me to ask them

18     whether or not it would be advisable for us to withdraw our application

19     for a binding order to Venezuela and the United Nations, given that the

20     Venezuelans and the people in the UN are doing a lot of work to collect

21     documents that are relevant only because Ambassador Arria is a witness.

22             And in the end of our -- some correspondence that we had, they

23     basically said that they were not in a position to guarantee that he was

24     not going to testify and it was up to us whether we wanted to withdraw

25     the motion or not, which prompted me to ask the Chamber or inquire of the

Page 18337

 1     Chamber whether or not, should we withdraw the motion, we would be given

 2     enough time in the event that Ambassador Aria were later to be decided to

 3     be put back on the active witness list, to obtain those documents before

 4     we would be required to cross-examine him.  If we had that assurance,

 5     we'd be prepared to withdraw the motion.  If we don't have that

 6     assurance, then we feel that the machinations need to go forward, because

 7     if he's called as a witness, we want to have that material.

 8             So that was my inquiry, Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  With respect to that binding order itself, speaking

10     for myself, it is entirely up to you and Mr. Karadzic whether or not to

11     withdraw them.  However, given that both Venezuela and the United Nations

12     are actively co-operating with you in this matter and that a lot of work

13     has been done already, it may be wise to allow them to complete the

14     process of review and delivery of documents, in the event that

15     Prosecution eventually changes its mind and moves Mr. Arria back to the

16     list of active witness.

17             MR. ROBINSON:  Very well.  Thank you, Mr. President.

18             JUDGE KWON:  But given this development, Mr. Robinson, I wonder

19     whether there's still a need for the Chamber to impose a dead-line on

20     Venezuela and the United Nations for the production of those documents.

21             MR. ROBINSON:  I think that's entirely up to you, Mr. President.

22     We just want to be in a position to have those documents by the time and

23     if Ambassador Arria testifies.  So if you feel that no dead-line is

24     necessary, then that's fine.  In my own -- in the ordinary way of doing

25     things, I would think that these people need dead-lines because they

Page 18338

 1     haven't obeyed the ones that -- the working dates that we've had in the

 2     past have slipped.  So I would prefer that they be given dead-lines so

 3     that our expectations are on the same wavelength, but it's up to you.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  In light of the reasons I referred to, the Chamber

 5     will dismiss your request to impose dead-lines on Venezuela and the

 6     United Nations, which was filed on 15th of August.

 7             The Chamber would also encourage the Prosecution to inform

 8     everybody, if that happens - that means the -- Mr. Arria being back to

 9     the list of active witnesses - as soon as it happens so that the accused

10     and the Chamber can prepare for that witness in a timely manner.

11             One ancillary matter, Mr. Robinson.  I think that both Venezuela

12     and the United Nations should be provided with a transcript of this

13     discussion so that they are on notice that there will be no dead-line and

14     that Mr. Diego Arria may not be called to give evidence in this case

15     after all.

16             MR. ROBINSON:  I agree, Mr. President.  And if you like, I can do

17     that.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you very much.

19             And if you could update the Chamber as to where we are in terms

20     of the ICMP -- the request for -- request to ICMP.

21             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  I think we've made a lot of

22     progress with ICMP.  The latest communication which we received last week

23     is that they are compiling the list of names and are going to forward

24     them to us.  Once they've done that, and they've also forward the DNA and

25     bone profiles of victims that they would need to provide, Dr. Karadzic

Page 18339

 1     will select five names from the list and we will begin the process of the

 2     first stage of sampling ICMP documents, which is to give five known names

 3     and test those.  After that, this process is complete, we will begin the

 4     random sampling of 295 samples, for which we've agreed that the

 5     Prosecution's expert Dr. Parsons and our expert Dr. Stojkovic will

 6     consult and come up with the method of random sampling.  But it seems

 7     like we're on a path to an agreement with the ICMP as to how to proceed,

 8     and the previous issues that had blocked our progress seem to have now

 9     been resolved.

10             JUDGE KWON:  But I still note that the Prosecution's request for

11     further orders in relation to ICMP is still pending before the Chamber.

12     I wonder whether, given the recent development, the Prosecution's request

13     should be withdrawn.

14             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. President, I'm -- I can't claim a sufficiently

15     nuanced grasp of the details of the discussions to take a declarative

16     position at this point.  I will say, however, that my understanding has

17     been that what has been cast as supposed progress is not the case at all.

18     That the ICMP position has been clear and consistent throughout.  That

19     the accused has persistently interposed new conditions which are in

20     conflict with the Court's order.  And that the representations made today

21     about some kind of agreement or new circumstances do not accurately

22     reflect the situation.  And I would certainly be loathed to suggest any

23     kind of withdrawal of the motion without further clarification with those

24     who have been dealing directly with this issue.

25             I think that the Trial Chamber's previous order has to be

Page 18340

 1     complied with in a manner it has not been and that has been made clear in

 2     the previous pleadings and submissions.  But I will double-check on the

 3     nature of these representations and get back to the Court forthwith.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 5             There's another minor matter in relation to a Prosecution motion

 6     for leave to add one document in relation to KDZ-464.  I take it he is

 7     not protected -- not a protected witness?

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honour, that's the individual I addressed

 9     Your Honours on --

10             JUDGE KWON:  Ah, thank you.

11             MS. EDGERTON:  -- in private session, these matters having arisen

12     only yesterday.

13             JUDGE KWON:  I take it there's no opposition to that addition of

14     one document?

15             MR. ROBINSON:  That's correct.

16             JUDGE KWON:  That's granted.  Thank you.

17             Unless there are any other matters, we'll bring in the witness.

18             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, there is one other matter, and that

19     deals with the witness who's going to come after this, because we

20     received a proofing note for that witness, which I assume the Chamber has

21     also received, and which makes a number of corrections to his statement.

22     And again --

23             JUDGE KWON:  I haven't -- we haven't looked at -- until we get a

24     clearance from you.

25             MR. ROBINSON:  Okay.  Well, when you look at it, you'll see

Page 18341

 1     there's about two pages of corrections to his statement, and Dr. Karadzic

 2     just received that this morning at 11.00.  Obviously he hasn't had a

 3     chance to look at it and won't have a chance to look at it.  So we would

 4     ask that -- I don't know what the timing would be, but that his

 5     cross-examination would be -- it would be preferable if it can start

 6     tomorrow, because we simply didn't have -- Dr. Karadzic simply hasn't had

 7     any time at all to review that new material.

 8             Secondly, with respect to this witness, we're wondering whether

 9     or not he has testified before in the court in Bosnia, because the

10     Prosecution had made an undertaking to notify us as part of their

11     proofing whenever a witness had given testimony in a prior case.  We've

12     gotten no notification about this witness, but we seem to have some

13     information that he has testified before.  And we would like to be

14     informed of that.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Gaynor, do you have the answer?

16             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, I have the answer on both parts, both points.

17     First of all, the proofing note is one page in length.  It covers

18     typographical errors which are really very detailed.  The witness is a

19     police officer with an admirable sense of attention to the detail of his

20     statement, so I took down every single typographical correction he wished

21     to make, and there's nothing of substance whatsoever in the proofing note

22     which would justify postponement of cross-examination.

23             The second point is that the witness has testified previously at

24     the court of Bosnia and Herzegovina and we have disclosed to the Defence

25     his testimony in that trial.  That was done several weeks ago, and I can

Page 18342

 1     find the precise date if necessary.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 3             MR. ROBINSON:  Actually, Mr. President, we would prefer the

 4     date -- we'd like to know the date of that disclosure because we didn't

 5     find it in our disclosure lot.  I just looked before even standing up and

 6     asking that, and I didn't find it.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Reid is working very hard on that, and you will

 8     have the answer.

 9             We can bring in the witness.

10                           [The witness entered court]

11             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, Mr. Hurko.  Please make yourself

12     comfortable.  Please be seated.  Once again I'd like to thank you for

13     your kind understanding that you had to be interposed by a witness whose

14     health condition was not very good.  So I hope you had a restful weekend.

15             Today you will be asked questions by the accused,

16     Mr. Radovan Karadzic, in his cross-examination.

17             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19                           WITNESS:  SEFIK HURKO [Resumed]

20                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

21                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.

23        A.   Good morning.

24        Q.   On the 2nd of April, you left Sarajevo and near Stjenice you were

25     asked to produce your ID by soldiers from Sokolac; is that right?

Page 18343

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   They knew that you were a Muslim and they probably wanted to know

 3     what it was that you had on you, but you were let pass, were you not?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   You heard some sort of shooting.  But before that, are you aware

 6     of a crisis of the 1st of March when a member of a wedding party was

 7     killed at Bascarsija?

 8        A.   No.  This is not contained in my statement either.  Can you

 9     please ask me only on the issues I mentioned in my statement.

10        Q.   Thank you.  In your statement of the 16th of November, 1994, at

11     page 00070301, that thereafter you left for your village of Madjer, where

12     you took part in the night watches.  You say that you were not armed but

13     that the situation was relatively peaceful.  Can you tell us:  How many

14     of you were there in the group of individuals who stood guard?

15        A.   First of all, the date, 16th of November, is that what you said?

16        Q.   The statement is dated the 16th of November, but it was on the

17     6th of April.

18        A.   Yes, that I went to the village of Madjer.

19        Q.   On the 6th of April, you went to the village of Madjer.

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And you say that you kept a night watch, that it was relatively

22     peaceful, that you only had a pistol; you didn't have that many weapons.

23     Can you tell us how many of you were there and what was the name of the

24     unit guarding Madjer?

25        A.   This was no sort of unit.  The group included two or three

Page 18344

 1     members of each household.  We would keep watch around our respective

 2     homes.  That's what these watches were.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Up until the 22nd of May, as you say, it was

 4     relatively calm.  The neighbouring village of Leleci, a Serb village, was

 5     on good terms with you; is that right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Does this mean that for four/six weeks after the war broke out in

 8     Sarajevo it was peaceful in your parts?

 9        A.   Up until the 22nd of May, no gun-fire could be heard.  There was

10     no fighting, no skirmishes.  There was no sort of war to speak of up

11     until the 22nd of May.  On the 22nd of May, fire was opened on all these

12     villages in the direction of Visegrad, namely Madjer, Kopljevici,

13     Orahovo, Pokrivenik, Sredovcici [phoen], Cubrenik [phoen].  These were

14     all villages close to my village, the village of Madjer.  Shells were

15     landing as well.  It was the 22nd of May.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Is Madjer a predominantly or fully a Muslim village?

17        A.   It's a fully Muslim village.

18        Q.   Do you know that it was envisaged that Madjer should form part of

19     the Muslim municipality of Rogatica?

20        A.   I don't know that.

21        Q.   Do you know that on the 20th of May a young Serb policeman was

22     killed while he was patrolling in a Serb village; they refused to hand

23     over his body and said that they would do so only after they had killed

24     ten more Serbs?

25        A.   Which village was that?

Page 18345

 1        Q.   We will look into that in a document later on.  But do you know

 2     that the reason behind this conflict was the murder of a Serb policeman?

 3        A.   I don't know that.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  At that point, you went to Radici and joined the

 5     Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina under the command of

 6     Husein Hadzibulic; is that right?

 7        A.   After the 2nd of May, I went there --

 8        Q.   Can you perhaps come closer to the microphones.  And perhaps both

 9     of us should wait for interpretation.

10        A.   After the 22nd of May, I was hiding about the village with my

11     wife and two children, and in early June I went for the village of

12     Radici.  It was some 15 kilometres away from the village of Madjer.

13     Sometime in mid-July we received a call - because there were many women,

14     children, and elderly in the area, I already spoke about it - I received

15     a call which said in a plain pencil that we should report to the village

16     of Novakovici for a review of some sort.  It may have been in mid-July,

17     around the 20th of July.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Was the unit under the command of Husein Hadzibulic,

19     that particular unit?

20        A.   A commander was mentioned by the name of Agic.  He was taken

21     prisoner somewhere and was no longer present in the area.  It was then

22     said that Hadzibulic would be the commander.  Mehemet Lubarda attended

23     this particular review in the capacity of a commander.  Now, this

24     Hadzibulic was -- had a degree in economics and he only happened to be

25     present there.

Page 18346

 1        Q.   Is this Mehmet Agic who used to be in the Territorial Defence

 2     earlier on?

 3        A.   That is possible.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  How big was that unit?

 5        A.   When I came to that review, we had all been told to take all the

 6     weapons we had.  When I arrived there, there were about 400 military-aged

 7     men.  I did not know all of them because they came from Visegrad, because

 8     Visegrad had fallen at the time.  There were refugees from Visegrad as

 9     well.  And this Hadzibulic said to us that the persons who were armed

10     should go on one side and those who are unarmed on the other side.  There

11     were about 400 of us, 400 men.  About half were armed and the other half

12     were not armed.  These who were armed had hunting guns, then some

13     M-48 rifles.  There were also some automatic rifles, those who had fled

14     from Rogatica.  And that automatic -- those automatic rifles were the

15     most serious weapons that I saw.

16        Q.   Thank you.  The village is called Zlatni Do, where the Serb

17     policeman was killed.  The young policeman's name was Mihajlovic.  He

18     patrolled the village and he was killed.  His body was taken, and that

19     caused a major dispute.

20             Tell me, in that group were there certain groups, one headed by

21     Selim Omeragic, another one included the Dzubro brothers, in the third

22     one Hadzibulic's, then Enes Satrovic; do you know all of these people and

23     did these groups actually exist either as battalions or companies?

24        A.   I know Enes Satrovic, but I did not see him there.  I don't

25     remember that.  He was a professor, if that's the man you have in mind.

Page 18347

 1        Q.   Thank you.  What about this Omeragic, Dzubre?

 2        A.   I don't really know that, since I did not have any weapons, I was

 3     assigned to the work platoon, and I was digging trenches, as I've already

 4     mentioned, in the village of Salakovici.  That is what the name was.

 5        Q.   Djubre, you don't know?

 6        A.   I don't know that last name.  Djubre?

 7        Q.   Or Cubre.

 8        A.   Cubre, that does exist, but I don't know anything about them.

 9     They are from the village of Cubric.

10        Q.   You don't know anything about them?

11        A.   I don't know anything about them.

12        Q.   Thank you.  I'm a bit perplexed here, Mr. Hurko.  Look at

13     paragraph -- paragraph 14 -- sorry, paragraph 6 of your statement.  You

14     say:

15             "I had to go to the village of Mazar [as interpreted] to get

16     food."

17             Maybe it's a question of translation; the translation is:  "I was

18     forced to go."

19             Is it not right to say "I was supposed to go," or did someone

20     force you to go?

21        A.   Nobody forced me.  I was supposed to go.  I had to go because we

22     didn't have any food for the children or anything.  We had this wheat and

23     then it was ripe and a few days earlier on my father would go and pick

24     this wheat.  On the 14th of August, I went to try to help him bring this

25     wheat so that we would have food.  I wasn't forced.  I was supposed to.

Page 18348

 1     I had to go.  Should -- it says here I was forced, and that means forced.

 2        Q.   So where were you when you went to Madjer?

 3        A.   Where was I?

 4        Q.   Yes.

 5        A.   In the village of Radic, above --

 6        Q.   You were in a unit?

 7        A.   No unit.  I was in the woods.

 8        Q.   All the time from when you reported to this unit until your

 9     arrest in 14 -- on the 14th of August until you were taken prisoner were

10     you in the military?

11        A.   I was not in the military.  I was in a work platoon, and I was

12     digging trenches and roads.  And I don't have a single hour in the

13     military, and I can show you my military booklet by way of a document.

14        Q.   Did you get this certificate for privatisation?  What does it say

15     there?

16        A.   What privatisation?

17        Q.   Did you receive a certificate?  I'm sure that you received a

18     certificate, either as a citizen or as a retiree or as a participant in

19     the war.  All citizens received certificates.  Now, what kind of

20     certificate did you receive?

21        A.   Civilian victim of the war.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Look at this.  You say:

23             "I set out to the village with Ahmet Cubro" --

24        A.   Ahmet Cubro joined me, yes.

25        Q.   Thank you.  But you confused me when you said that you didn't

Page 18349

 1     know anything about them.  So you do know something after all, do you?

 2        A.   Well, I know the man.

 3        Q.   And he was in this unit; right?

 4        A.   I don't know.  He was in the woods, just like I was.

 5        Q.   Do you know, Mr. Hurko, what happened in that period between the

 6     10th and 14th August when you were taken prisoner?  Do you know --

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Actually, can we look at 1D04158.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Do you know that your unit attacked the village of Pljesko and

10     that the attack was led by Selim Omeragic and Kasim Velic, who was a

11     captain, and they torched Serb houses, Alem Hasacic [phoen];

12     Zagorica Mujez [phoen], nicknamed Sef; and Rusmir Balas, nicknamed

13     Koljac, the butcher?  Did you know all that?

14        A.   On the 10th of August, my father went to the village of Madjer to

15     get that wheat.  I was in the village of Radic in the woods with my

16     children.  And on the 14th of August I set off.  I don't know anything

17     about these operations.  I was not there, I wasn't -- I don't know who

18     organised this.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Can we have a look at this document.  Paragraph 6

20     now, please, so it would be the next page.  And then another part of your

21     unit at the same time burned the village of Kozici.  The inhabitants

22     fled, so there were no victims, but the village of Kozici was razed to

23     the ground.  Do you know that this was the Cubro clan that did that, then

24     Senaid, Sead, Sarija, and Nazif, then Dzananovici and Adem Imsirevic.

25     Please look at paragraph 6.

Page 18350

 1        A.   Let me tell you, Karadzic, you mention this unit of mine.  I was

 2     not in the army.  Do you understand that?  I don't know what the army was

 3     doing and what they burned and when they burned it.  I don't know

 4     anything about that.  With my children or with my wife, I was in the

 5     woods.  If you wish, I can tell you what it was like and what the woods

 6     were like and who the women and children were.

 7        Q.   I see that you say that in your statement of the

 8     16th of November, 1994, on this same page --

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We did not get the number

10     of the page.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   And this is what you said.  I'm going to read it out in

13     English --

14             JUDGE KWON:  Can you upload it?

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe so.

16             MR. GAYNOR:  Excuse me, could I just raise one point:  Earlier we

17     were looking at 1D04158, which is not on the list of documents provided

18     by the Defence --

19             JUDGE KWON:  I'm sorry, we dealt with it with the previous

20     witness, and --

21             MR. GAYNOR:  Oh, is that right.  Okay.  Thank you, Mr. President.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Probably he forgot to raise it -- to tender that.

23     We may need Ms. Edgerton, but I think we can come --

24             Was it your intention to tender that?

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, certainly.  But it

Page 18351

 1     doesn't matter.  This witness will do as well, because this has to do

 2     with what happened in Rogatica.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   This is your statement of the 16th of November, 1994.

 5     Page number is 91 -- 3091 -- I actually have something different.  My

 6     numbers are different.  The second paragraph:

 7             "That is when we decided to go to another village further away

 8     from Rogatica.  I set out together with my family.  I went to the village

 9     of Radici, above Ustipraca, where we hid in the forest," I think, "I

10     joined the TO unit of the RBiH, whose commander was Husein Hadzibulic.

11     He lined us all up and since we did not have enough weapons, he deployed

12     me and the work platoon.  As a member of the work platoon, I dug

13     trenches ..." and so on.

14             Now, is it correct that you were in this unit under the command

15     of Husein Hadzibulic, if that's how you pronounce it?

16        A.   I've already told you that I was there for the line up, for the

17     review, that was on the 20th of July, 1992.  I had time to dig these

18     trenches and build roads, and I was taken prisoner on the 14th of August.

19     So it didn't last for more than 20-odd days.

20        Q.   Thank you.  But, Mr. Hurko, work platoon, it is a platoon, it's a

21     military formation, isn't it, and it is within this unit?  And your

22     commander was Husein Hadzibulic.  Isn't that right?

23        A.   Well, at the time no one knew anything, what was command, who was

24     commanding.  I was just digging these roads towards Ustipraca.  Nothing

25     was set up, Territorial Defence, whatever; all of that happened after I

Page 18352

 1     was taken prisoner.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Let us see what it says here further on, that your

 3     father came across Ramiz Alajbegovic, the former deputy commander of the

 4     Rogatica station, and on that occasion Ramiz Alajbegovic gave my father a

 5     laissez-passer and at the same time asked him to arrange a meeting with

 6     people from Lelek for him; right?  Is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes, yes.  He gave him some kind of pass, because they no longer

 8     allowed us to go back to this Madjer.

 9        Q.   And then your father was given the task of arranging contacts

10     with Leleci with the intention of having Leleci come to the side of the

11     Territorial Defence?

12        A.   When he arrived in Madjer, he met someone from Leleci and he said

13     that Ramiz Alajbegovic and somebody else wanted to meet with these people

14     from Leleci, and then they, along with my father, met with these people

15     from Leleci; that is right.

16        Q.   And Leleci -- it seems not everything has been recorded in the

17     transcript.  Now it has been recorded, I guess.

18             Then Mr. Izetbegovic was trying to persuade the people from

19     Leleci to join the Territorial Defence, which was later the source of

20     your trouble; right?

21        A.   What kind of trouble?

22        Q.   Was that held against you, when the Serbs took you prisoner?

23        A.   They met and Ramiz asked them whether they would like to join the

24     Territorial Defence, and they said no, they were waging war against the

25     Muslims.  And that was it.  That was the only thing they said.

Page 18353

 1        Q.   Did they not say this is a war between the Serbs and the Muslims

 2     and everyone should be with their own people?

 3        A.   Well, there you go.  You can put it that way as well.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  You did your military service, didn't you?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Can it be said, roughly, that the army consists of personnel and

 7     materiel?

 8        A.   I don't know.  I have no idea.

 9        Q.   What is there in the military apart from personnel and materiel?

10        A.   I was in the quarter-masters corps.  I have a bit of training.  I

11     have no idea.

12        Q.   Thank you.  You confirmed in paragraph 5 that you saw this order

13     of Rajko Kusic in which he said to all units that personnel was being

14     destroyed without hesitation.  That is what is stated here, and that's

15     the translation:  "Personnel," it said there; whereas they use the word

16     "ziva sila," manpower?

17        A.   I really do not understand what you're saying.

18        Q.   In paragraph 5 of your amalgamated statement --

19             JUDGE KWON:  Please slow down.

20             I take it there is no B/C/S translation for his amalgamated

21     statement.

22             MR. GAYNOR:  No, there isn't.  A very large part of his

23     amalgamated statement are, in fact, based on this Bosnian statement.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 18354

 1        Q.   So you confirmed that you saw an order of Rajko Kusic, one that

 2     he issued to his troops, to destroy personnel, manpower, without any

 3     hesitation.  What did it say there, "manpower" or "personnel"?

 4        A.   I don't know where I saw that.  I don't know where I said that.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  For your convenience, I read out your amalgamated

 6     statement, Mr. Hurko.  So paragraph 5 of your amalgamated statement reads

 7     as follows:

 8             "I have also been shown a copy of a document dated

 9     23rd of May, 1992 -- "

10             In the meantime, we'll upload it.

11             "... which appears to be issued by Rajko Kusic, ordering units to

12     hold their positions in certain villages in Rogatica municipality and

13     ordering the mopping-up of Oskoplje, Kusturice, Zakoma, and Kalimanici.

14     Oskoplje, Kusturice, and Kalimanici are Muslim.  Zakoma is mixed.  In

15     this, he orders that 'all units are to carry out destruction of personnel

16     without hesitation.'  This document is consistent with what I saw:  There

17     was an attack on many Muslim villages in Rogatica municipality on

18     22nd May 1992 and the following days."

19             This is what you state in your statement.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is what was shown to me, this

21     document.  This document was shown to me here in The Hague.  I did not

22     give that as my statement.

23             JUDGE KWON:  But you said that is consistent with what you saw.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This document was shown to me, I

25     saw it, and it corresponds to what happened on that day, at the end where

Page 18355

 1     I was, those people shooting at those villages.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  So Mr. Karadzic's question was that there's a

 3     passage in that document which says "all units are to carry out

 4     destruction of personnel without hesitation."  So his question was

 5     whether that passage was consistent with what you saw, whether you have

 6     anything to say in relation to that passage.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what they meant by

 8     "ziva sila," "personnel."  Women, children, old men, everybody was there.

 9     Women were delivering babies.  And they call all of them personnel,

10     manpower?  They shelled this entire area.  I don't understand what they

11     mean by "personnel," "manpower."

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Did they have any prisoners?  Were you taken prisoner, killed?

14        A.   Me?  Was I taken prisoner or killed?  I was killed.

15        Q.   But the destruction of personnel or manpower, is that what you

16     saw?  Is that what personnel refers to in military terminology?  Does it

17     refer to soldiers?

18        A.   There were civilians and soldiers there.

19        Q.   How can a civilian be personnel or manpower?  Where have you

20     found that?

21             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  We need to put a pause and slow

22     down.  Yes, we can proceed.  Can you answer the question, Mr. Hurko?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot answer this question.  I

24     don't understand it.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 18356

 1        Q.   For them you are personnel.  You were not killed, but you were

 2     imprisoned; is that right?

 3        A.   Yes, that is right, I wasn't killed.  I was captured.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  And you were asked by this gentleman, Pecanica, if

 5     you are armed, and he ordered them not to beat you, and he informed you

 6     that from that point on you are a prisoner; is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And you answered that you are not armed; is that correct?

 9        A.   Yes.  I said I didn't have weapons, that my children were left

10     behind in the village of Radovo.  I asked them to let me go back to my

11     children.  He said, no, you have to go back to the village of Kosovo,

12     that I would be questioned by Rajko Kusic, and that they would release

13     me.

14        Q.   Thank you.  And then they found 70 bullets in your pocket;

15     correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   You did not report the bullets or you didn't manage to dispose of

18     them?

19        A.   Well, no, I couldn't.  I was afraid.  How could I throw them

20     away?

21        Q.   You had a licence for your pistol.  Did you have a licence to

22     carry a pistol and 70 bullets, or did you have a licence to possess a

23     pistol?

24        A.   To possess a pistol.  I don't know about the bullets.  I bought

25     them in shops before the war.

Page 18357

 1        Q.   And do you know that a permit for carrying a gun does not also

 2     mean that you would be permitted to take a gun out of your house?

 3        A.   [No interpretation]

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat his answer.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   And against whom, at whom, were you supposed to fire those

 7     70 bullets?

 8        A.   At nobody.  I had them in war time and peace time.

 9        Q.   Is it correct --

10             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Please slow down.  Because of the

11     overlap, the interpreters were not able to catch what you said in answer

12     to the question whether you knew that a permit for carrying a gun does

13     not also mean that you would be permitted to take a gun out of your

14     house.

15             How did you answer that question, Mr. Hurko?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Since it was war time, I carried

17     what I could carry from my house.  So I took the pistol from my house.  I

18     couldn't leave it behind.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Thank you.  And those 70 bullets were intended for Serbs or for

21     somebody else?

22        A.   They were not intended for anyone, not Serbs, not anyone else.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that Serb villages in Rogatica were

24     torched on a daily basis and if there were inhabitants still in the

25     villages, they were killed?

Page 18358

 1        A.   Can you please repeat your question.

 2        Q.   Mr. Hurko, is it correct that from the 22nd -- from the

 3     20th of May until the 14th of August Serbian villages were attacked and

 4     torched every day and Serb civilians were killed?

 5        A.   No, that is not correct.  You are just making that up now.

 6                           [Defence counsel confer]

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Very well.  Is it correct that each Muslim village had its own TO

 9     unit?

10        A.   Each village, each village before the war guarded their homes for

11     as long as they could.  Then when they couldn't, they would take their

12     wives and children and run.  You keep skipping over the question.  First

13     you ask me about the village of Kosovo, and when I was talking to

14     Pecanica, I was supposed to complete that segment.

15        Q.   Well, I will ask that at the end.  We will come to that, to the

16     swallowing of the bullets and all of that.

17        A.   And about Pecanica who arrested me, I just wanted to talk about

18     that as well.

19        Q.   Well, I can see that you changed a lot about names, such as the

20     word "Chetnik," but some of that stayed in the paragraph.  So I'm

21     interested to know what you mean when you say "Chetnik."  We have that in

22     paragraph 8, 7, paragraph 8 and 9, and all -- so on, 10.  What is a

23     "Chetnik" to you?  You can say whatever you want.  Nobody will get angry.

24     Are these bearded men with some insignia or do you refer to all Serbs as

25     Chetniks?

Page 18359

 1        A.   Not all Serbs, no.  More it would be those men with the beards

 2     and the cockades, I think that's what they're called, skull and

 3     cross-bones insignia on their caps, and they would kill people in

 4     Rogatica.  When they came to the prison, they would beat us up.  I call

 5     them Chetniks.  We all call them Chetniks.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we admit the document that was

 8     on the screen, 1D04158, although we will call it up several times more.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  You haven't asked a question in relation to this

10     current witness.  Is it your intention based upon what you discussed with

11     the previous witness to tender that into evidence?  Or you are minded to

12     ask some questions in relation to this document to Mr. Hurko?

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I did.  I did.  Can we have it

14     again?  Yes, here it is.  Can we then see these paragraphs.  Can we then

15     have the next page, please.

16             MR. GAYNOR:  I'm sorry, can I observe at this stage, before we

17     get any further:  We have no real idea what this document is.  The

18     previous witness has confirmed nothing about this document, and this

19     document should be treated with extreme care by the Trial Chamber, in my

20     submission.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The document is -- has an

23     ERN number.  It was evidently placed into the EDS by the OTP.  The

24     document was evidently seized somewhere, and it is full of -- well, it

25     provides an overview of events and pertains to this witness until the

Page 18360

 1     14th of August, and we can see here what was happening on the

 2     23rd of June, houses were burned in Solakovica, where Dzananovic Mustafa

 3     particularly excelled, Djedovic Alija, and so on.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  It's not for you to give evidence.  It's for you to

 5     put questions.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Please, can you look at this document.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What is this page?  Can we ...

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at the next page

10     because at the time you were not in Rogatica before the conflict broke

11     out, before April.  Can we look at the next page, please.  Do you know

12     where the Serbian village of Vodice is, and do you know that it was

13     destroyed on the 5th of July?

14        A.   I know Selo Vodice.  I know where it is, generally.  And I know

15     that it was destroyed.

16        Q.   Do you know Milomir Obradovic was a casualty there, his daughter

17     was raped and killed, his son Danko, and so on?

18        A.   Yes, I did hear of some people.  Now I don't know what their

19     names are.

20        Q.   Thank you.  And do you know about the village of Starcici, where

21     eight Serb houses were burned on the 23rd of June?

22        A.   [No interpretation]

23             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not understand if the

24     witness said yes or no.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 18361

 1        Q.   Did you hear of Rusmir Balas, aka Koljac, the butcher?

 2        A.   I don't know where the Koljac nickname comes from.  I knew

 3     Rusmir Balas from before the war.  I knew he was a waiter in Rogatica,

 4     And I did not see him in that area.  And once again I say:  I was not a

 5     soldier.  I had two small children, aged 7 and 10.  I was in the forest

 6     with my wife most of the time.  And when I did join, I was digging some

 7     road a few occasions, and I was digging trenches once.  So I really don't

 8     know much about the army.

 9        Q.   Mr. Hurko, I'm not accusing you of anything, God forbid.  All I

10     want is for us to clarify with your help what was happening there.  Here,

11     paragraph 8, please pay attention.

12             In mid-August, the village of Kozice was burned by Cubre with his

13     unit - Cubro, Sead; Cubro, Senaid; Cubro, Sarija; Cubro, Nazif, and so on

14     and so forth?

15        A.   Mid-August?

16        Q.   Yes, yes.

17        A.   But I was arrested in the -- on the 14th of August.

18        Q.   But this was in mid-August, the 12th and the 13th.

19        A.   Well, I don't know anything about that.

20        Q.   Do you know that in July, near the location of Saran, an ambush

21     was set up and Rajak Dragoljub and Bosko Ljubinac were killed in a car?

22        A.   I passed by Saran only once and I didn't see anything.  I was

23     digging trenches on the other side, and Radici's completely in a

24     different area.

25        Q.   All right.  Thank you.

Page 18362

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we admit it now?  It seems the

 2     witness does know something.

 3             MR. GAYNOR:  I will observe, Mr. President, that the document is

 4     not signed, it's not stamped, it's not dated.  What the witness has had

 5     to say on the document is on the transcript.  In my submission, it

 6     doesn't meet the threshold for showing the indicia for authenticity and

 7     reliability that are normally present.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There is a signature "A. Jesic" on

 9     the first page.  "A. Jesic."  There is a signature on the first page and

10     there is an ERN number.

11             JUDGE KWON:  So your submission is that this is the signature of

12     the author of this document, Mr. Karadzic?

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is an overview, a report, and

14     it was drafted by Mr. Jesic.  If it's necessary, we can MFI it.  But this

15     was not something that was obtained by the Defence.  It was something

16     that was already there.

17             JUDGE KWON:  The Prosecution is not sure about this -- the

18     authenticity about this document, although the previous witness

19     recognised some individuals referred to in the report and some matters

20     are concerned with contemporaneous matters, but we didn't have sufficient

21     basis to admit this document through the previous two witnesses.  You

22     will have another opportunity to call witness to -- through whom you can

23     tender this document, but not at this time.  We will not admit this,

24     Mr. Karadzic.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 18363

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Did you describe seeing Rajko Kusic once and that you knew that

 3     it was Rajko Kusic because he told you so, and does that mean that you

 4     didn't know him from before?

 5        A.   I didn't know Rajko Kusic from before.  But it was like this:

 6     When I was arrested - you mentioned this Pecanica - they brought me to

 7     the village of Kosovo, which was on the ... and then on the right-hand

 8     side there, there was Mico Andric and garage --

 9        Q.   Well, we will deal with that later.

10        A.   Let me just tell you something about Rajko Kusic.  This is where

11     I met him.  He introduced himself.  May I say that?

12        Q.   Well, we'll do it later.  I just want to ask you this:  Do you

13     know that others also introduced themselves as Rajko Kusic?

14        A.   No.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at 1D04161.

16             MR. GAYNOR:  This, again, is a document which is not on the list

17     of documents notified to the Prosecution.

18             JUDGE KWON:  And the reason being what, Mr. Karadzic?

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, the reason is the pace.  We

20     cannot have time for everything.  It's just a statement.  We're not going

21     to tender it.  Just -- it's for purposes of testifying to this fact.

22             JUDGE KWON:  We postponed your cross-examination of this witness

23     for your convenience, and I think you should have been able to give your

24     notice to the Prosecution at least.  Let us proceed.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 18364

 1        Q.   Yes, if you can look at line 15 from the bottom, it says:  Kosovo

 2     an officer who introduced himself at the time as Kusic Rajko, which I

 3     could see for myself that it wasn't Kusic Rajko because I knew Kusic

 4     personally, so I said nothing, I said nothing -- oh, I lost my place.

 5             So I said nothing and accepted his false introduction.

 6        A.   Mr. Karadzic, that is not true.  I know this just as if it

 7     happened yesterday, and I already told you about that.

 8        Q.   Well, just this question:  Do you know that different people

 9     introduced themselves with different names and that some people who were

10     not Rajko Kusic introduced themselves as Rajko Kusic?

11        A.   [No interpretation]

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat his answer.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Hurko, could you repeat your answer, kindly.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I was brought into the village

15     of Kosovo, there were four soldiers who entered that garage.  These

16     soldiers that brought us in, they were professional, they didn't beat us

17     or mistreat us.  When we entered the garage, we sat on a bench or

18     something over there.  It was my father, my mother, and my cousin

19     Abdulah, and myself.  Four soldiers entered.  This one who was there who

20     had a moustache.  I didn't know Rajko Kusic from before the war.  He

21     said, Do you know me?  We said, No, we don't know.  He said, I'm Rajko

22     Kusic, the commander of the Serbian army in Roga-- and then after that he

23     said, Have you heard of me?  And then we said, Yes, we have, we're

24     glad ...  and so on and so forth.  And then he said that

25     Stojan Perkovic -- Perkovic and Krsmanovic, please search them.  He

Page 18365

 1     called them by name.  Then they came up to us, they searched us, they put

 2     pistols in our mouths, they made me eat the bullets.  He hit me on the

 3     head with the ammunition.  He made me eat three bullets.  If Karadzic

 4     doesn't believe that, that man can confirm that.  He confirmed that in

 5     Sarajevo, that I was forced to eat those bullets.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   All right, sir.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  We'll have a break for an hour.

 9             In the meantime, I wonder, Mr. Robinson, if you could have a word

10     with Mr. Karadzic whether he needs to put a third party's statement which

11     is not likely to be admitted in order to put some information to the

12     witness.

13             We'll resume at 1.30.

14                           --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 1.34 p.m.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Let me examine one aspect of this.  The soldiers did not beat you

20     up?

21        A.   No.  Pecanica knew me.

22        Q.   Was he their superior officer or a person of some importance?

23        A.   I think he was just an ordinary soldier.

24        Q.   But he did have the authority to ask of them not to beat you?

25        A.   Well, this was in passing, as they were taking us over there.  He

Page 18366

 1     didn't say anything.  He didn't say that we should be either beaten or

 2     not, but they did not beat us as we were on our way to that garbage.

 3        Q.   However, in paragraph 7 you say Pecanica told the others not to

 4     beat you; is that right?

 5        A.   As we were taken prisoner perhaps he told the others that he knew

 6     me.

 7        Q.   There is one thing that I find worrisome, Mr. Hurko:  You have

 8     never seen your statement in our own language, have you?

 9        A.   Which statement?

10        Q.   The final amalgamated statement you signed a day or two ago.  Was

11     it all in English, or did you have a copy in Serbian or Bosnian, as you

12     will?

13        A.   Well, they read it back to me in Serbo-Croatian.

14        Q.   And then in paragraph 11 you say that Kusic ordered that you be

15     taken out in order that he may interrogate you.  You say that he did not

16     interrogate you for long about the deployment of your forces and the

17     strength of your troops.  Were you able to give him any information at

18     all?

19        A.   As he was interrogating me, Perkovic and Bra na Krsmanovic would

20     beat me.  They would beat me and my father in turns.  As soon as they put

21     a question to me and I started answering, they would stat beating me up.

22     So there wasn't anything specific until -- or any of the occasions that I

23     was taken out during my stay in the garage.

24        Q.   However, Kusic did ask that you be singled out this once, and

25     then he told the others that they should not beat you up?

Page 18367

 1        A.   I was the only one singled out and taken out of the garage by

 2     Kusic.  There was this other individual who was there with a rifle --

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't catch the name.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Kusic said:  No, we're not

 5     interested in what you're telling us; we're interested in something else.

 6     He then went on to say that Darko Neric should go to the garage and tell

 7     the others that they should not beat my father.  Neric went to the garage

 8     first, I followed, and Kusic was behind me.  And as I got into the

 9     garage, I saw my father on the floor, both of his ears cut up, all

10     blooded over.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Very well.  So you were not beaten up as soon as you were taken

13     prisoner.  It was only when they found these bullets on you that they

14     started beating you up and forced you to swallow them?

15        A.   Well, they started beating us up right away.  It didn't have

16     anything to do with the bullets.  As they were beating us up,

17     Stojan Perkovic found these bullets in my pocket.  But the beating

18     started up right -- started right away.

19        Q.   This isn't what you stated in your statement, sir.

20        A.   Yes, it is.

21        Q.   Very well.  Is this the only time you were forced to swallow

22     bullets?

23        A.   No, it also happened at the prison in Rogatica.

24        Q.   What?

25        A.   They told me that I was going to swallow all the bullets they

Page 18368

 1     had, but I couldn't swallow more than three.  At some point as I was in

 2     the prison, Vinko Bulic also forced me to swallow bullets.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  You mentioned that in the school building certain

 4     Muslims were singled out who were considered to be loyal and they were

 5     sent home; right?

 6        A.   As we got to the school building in Rogatica, Kusic knocked on

 7     the door of this high school building and a Muslim opened the door.  He

 8     was the one who answered the door.  It was all Muslims who were in the

 9     camp.  They told me that my mother, my father, and I should go upstairs,

10     and then he proceeded to say that my father would be -- would stay there

11     and my mother and I would proceed somewhere else.  This was on the same

12     day, the 14th of August.

13        Q.   Is it not true that your mother asked to be taken with you as you

14     were taken prisoner in your village?

15        A.   That's not true.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Is it not true that Sosa, Hodzic, and some other

17     Muslims were called out; they said that they pledged their allegiance to

18     them, and they were released?

19        A.   It was on the following day, on the 16th, in the morning when a

20     truck arrived with a tarp and all of us were told to board that bus, save

21     for the Sosa and Hodzic families and some others who were believed to be

22     loyalists and were allowed to go home.  So everybody was forced aboard

23     that bus, save for my mother and I.  But the Basic family was killed in

24     1993 in Rogatica.

25        Q.   Do you know that there existed at least five villages in Rogatica

Page 18369

 1     which were loyal and continued living there normally until the

 2     Dayton Accords?

 3        A.   Satorovici, Tmurni Do, Kosovo, and a place called Burati, for

 4     those I know for a fact that they stayed there.  Whether they were loyal

 5     or not, they were all transferred to Sarajevo in 1994.  I -- I took the

 6     belongings that the Serbs were taking out of their homes.

 7        Q.   Is it not true that they laid their arms down and were free to

 8     leave whenever they wished to, not necessarily before the Dayton Accords

 9     were signed?

10        A.   They were exchanged on the 6th of October, 1994, together with

11     me.  They were all transferred to Sarajevo as well.

12        Q.   Things did not happen that way, but anyway we'll see a document

13     to that effect soon.

14             As for the beatings, is my understanding correct that it was

15     those who knew you from before who beat you the most; is that right?

16        A.   Well, it applied to those who we knew and those who we didn't

17     know.  I didn't know Rajko Kusic.  As for Stojan Perkovic, I knew him by

18     sight.  I knew that he worked at the Elektrodistribucija in Rogatica.

19     Krsmanovic, also known as Pipa, is someone I didn't know but who beat me

20     up on many occasions.

21        Q.   This person Dida [phoen] did not beat you up at the SUP in

22     Rogatica, did he?

23        A.   Well, who is this Dida?  I don't know him.

24        Q.   Paragraph 27 of your statement:  "On that day, a man by the name

25     of Dida, an inspector of the SUP in Rogatica."

Page 18370

 1        A.   Not "Dida," "Djida."

 2        Q.   Right.  Is he a Serb or a Muslim?

 3        A.   I think he is a Serb.

 4        Q.   He was only putting questions and he was not beating anyone up.

 5        A.   He interrogated my father outside the prison and did not beat

 6     him.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we call in e-court -- can we

 9     have 1D04166, please.  1D04166.

10             MR. GAYNOR:  I want to note for the record, again, that this was

11     not on the list of documents provided to the Prosecution.

12             JUDGE KWON:  I'm expecting to hear something from you,

13     Mr. Karadzic.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This was notified in respect of the

15     earlier witness and this particular municipality.  I can't possibly do it

16     for every witness.  I was meaning to use it with the earlier witness, but

17     I was not given the time.  Is it not true that the document was notified

18     in respect of the earlier witness?

19             JUDGE KWON:  Well, let us proceed this time.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Please look at this agenda of the meeting of the

23     Executive Committee.  The date is the 6th of September, 1992.  And it

24     says here that the only item on the agenda is the provision and supply of

25     essential foodstuffs to the residents of the villages of Satorovici,

Page 18371

 1     Okruglo, Tmurni Do.  And also Loburati [phoen] should be added to this;

 2     it's a place in the direction of Sokolac, is it not?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Look at the conclusions at the bottom.  The Muslim population in

 5     the villages of Satorovici, Okruglo, Tmurni Do, and Osovo shall be

 6     assigned the essential foodstuffs, namely flour, macaroni, rice, sugar,

 7     cooking oil, coffee, salt, et cetera, according to the criteria laid down

 8     by the Executive Committee relating to the provision of essential

 9     foodstuffs to other inhabitants of Rogatica municipality."

10             Were you aware, Mr. Witness, that they were equated in every

11     respect to the Serbs, that they -- the Serbian authorities paid them

12     visits, that they stayed there for as long as they wished, and that none

13     of them were killed?

14        A.   Some of them were killed.  I was a prisoner at the time, and I

15     was unable to be aware of any of this.  I was going through the greatest

16     of suffering.

17        Q.   Who was killed?

18        A.   Sejfo Mirvic was killed in mid-December in the prison in

19     Rogatica.  He was one of the loyalists from Satorovici.

20        Q.   We'll see what happened on that occasion.  We have it in your

21     statement.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted, please.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Gaynor.

24             MR. GAYNOR:  I don't believe the witness has added a great deal

25     to the document itself, but I'll leave it in Your Honours' discretion.

Page 18372

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] He is aware of these villages, he

 2     did enumerate them, including Burati.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  The fact that he knows certain villages referred to

 4     in the document does not mean that that document can be admitted.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, he is aware of the

 6     fact that the villages were leading a peaceful life, that they were

 7     treated equally.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that.  How would I be

 9     able to know if they received food or not?  I said that I was in the

10     prison in Rogatica at the time.  I wasn't able to know what they were

11     doing.  I didn't even know who stayed behind as a loyalist.  This was

12     something I learned later.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   And was it later on that you learned that these villages had not

15     been attacked and had not been set on fire; right?

16        A.   The villages had not been set on fire, because when individuals

17     were brought over to Rogatica from these villages, they were forced to

18     board buses and were then taken to Rogatica.  This was in 1993.  All of

19     them were rounded up and taken to the Rogatica prison.

20        Q.   This is not true.  Witness, you just stated -- I put it to you

21     that some of them stayed even after the Dayton Accords and everyone

22     stayed for as long as they wished.  Look at 1994/1993; do you claim that

23     these villages were attacked and people arrested?

24        A.   In November of 1993, all of the people from these villages were

25     taken to Rogatica, to a separate hut as part of the prison.  And when the

Page 18373

 1     attack ensued on Gorazde, all the able-bodied persons were carrying food,

 2     and I was among them.  They were all carrying food to Gorazde.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  That is inaccurate, not true, and I will prove it.

 4        A.   You do that.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I leave it in the hands of the

 6     Trial Chamber.  I do believe that this should be admitted.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber does not see any basis to admit this

 8     document through this witness, Mr. Karadzic.  It's time to -- for you to

 9     conclude.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Mr. Witness, you mentioned that Mirvic had been killed.  In this

12     statement did you omit to mention what you mentioned earlier on, namely

13     that the MUP had carried out an investigation and that this Bojic, or

14     whoever, had lied to them, to the effect that Mirvic was killed as he was

15     trying to escape?

16        A.   As far as I can remember it was a Friday, and all of these people

17     from the village of Satorovici were sent to take a bath --

18        Q.   Wait a second.  We're talking about Milici.

19        A.   Let me tell you once again:  During the night, in Vinko's office

20     there was some noise, some banging, and we heard that.  And in the

21     morning, when we were supposed to go to work, Vinko walked in about 8.00

22     or 9.00 --

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We can no longer hear the

24     witness due to background noise.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Hurko, I apologise.  Because of the noise I

Page 18374

 1     made, the interpreters were not able to hear you.  Could you kindly

 2     repeat your answer.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a Friday evening.

 4     Vinko Bojic, the prison warden, had sent all form Satorovici to the

 5     village to take a bath and then he said he'd return them the next day.

 6     That evening, in Vinko's office, there was some noise, banging, in

 7     Vinko's office.  You could hear some banging, and we did not know what

 8     was going on.  In the morning, around 8.00 or 9.00, Vinko came and said,

 9     Imagine this Mirvic tried to escape and my guards caught up with him and

10     killed him.

11             Within 15 minutes' time a doctor came, whom I had known before

12     the war, he came wearing a white coat, and he went to Mirvic's body.

13     When this doctor came and went back, within 15 minutes' time, he let us

14     go and bury Mirvic in our own way - how do I put it? - in the Muslim way.

15     And then some people went to dig the grave and others were cutting

16     something up there and I walked up to the body then.  He was wearing a

17     sweater and jeans.  I could not recognise his face at all.  It was beyond

18     recognition.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Did you say that the MUP had carried out an on-site investigation

21     and that he had said to them that this Mirvic -- or rather, that he had

22     lied?

23        A.   That was probably a mistake.  I corrected it here one day.  I

24     said that it was a doctor, not the MUP.

25        Q.   You did say that it was a doctor -- no, the MUP.

Page 18375

 1        A.   I said when I made the statement that it may have been a mistake.

 2     It was either me or the typist or whoever.  But I corrected it when I

 3     came here on Thursday, I think it was.  It was the doctor.

 4        Q.   These people who mistreated you, was anybody held accountable,

 5     this Perkovic, for instance?

 6        A.   He was before a court in Sarajevo and I was a witness there, yes.

 7        Q.   Do you know or do you agree that the mosque in the centre of

 8     Rogatica was renewed, restored, with the support of the Serb authorities,

 9     the municipal authorities, and the Government of Republika Srpska?

10        A.   First of all, let me tell you that both of the mosques that used

11     to be in Rogatica were razed to the ground, and we prisoners had to clean

12     all of that up.  Who restored them after the war, I don't know.

13        Q.   1D --

14             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, your last question.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I please have 1D04176.  That is

16     Mr. Perkovic's judgement.  It is a final decision before the court of

17     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Did you testify in these proceedings?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   I'm not sure that that transcript had been disclosed to us, but

22     I'm not going to create any problems.

23             MR. GAYNOR:  Let me just clarify the position.  Mr. Hurko's

24     transcript of evidence before the court in Bosnia and Herzegovina was

25     disclosed on the 5th of July, 2011, having been received by the

Page 18376

 1     Prosecution on the 22nd of June, 2011.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Possibly.  Can we have a look at

 4     pages 2 and 3 now.

 5                           [Defence counsel confer]

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Look at paragraph 3.  Sefik Hurko -- does it say here that he was

 8     found guilty because he took part in the unlawful detention of civilians

 9     Fejzo Hurko, Sefik Hurko, Abdulah Hurko, and Izo [as interpreted] Hurko,

10     and also physical maltreatment and humiliation of Sefik Hurko, and the

11     bullets are referred to here.  Do you know that he was found guilty of

12     that?

13        A.   Do I know about that?

14        Q.   Yes.

15        A.   I know that he was found guilty of everything that he had done,

16     that he was sentenced to 12 years, and that he admitted that guilt.

17        Q.   He admitted that he had done all of that?

18        A.   He admitted all of that.

19        Q.   Did he mention a reason?  Was it personal vengeance or whatever?

20        A.   What do you mean reasons?

21        Q.   Did he say why he had behaved that way?

22        A.   It was closed session.  They closed the court session and he said

23     why he made us eat bullets and why he behaved that way.  So they

24     discussed that behind closed doors.

25        Q.   Thank you.  I apologise.  I really do not have any ill-will

Page 18377

 1     towards you.  I'm just trying to realise why someone had done something,

 2     and I'm trying to establish the facts.  I have respect for you, and I am

 3     sorry about everything that you've experienced.

 4        A.   Can I say something else?

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Hurko.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for the killings Becir --

 7     Musevic, Adil, Najl, Alija Omerhodzic, Mirsad Omanovic, you did not ask

 8     me anything about all of that and I don't know why you didn't.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   We are going to deal with that through other witnesses,

11     Mr. Hurko.  I was interested in what you knew and saw.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Gaynor, do you have any questions for --

13             MR. GAYNOR:  Just one point of clarification.

14                           Re-examination by Mr. Gaynor:

15        Q.   It was a question put by Mr. Karadzic which was at the end of

16     page 84 of today's proceedings.  He said:  "These people who mistreated

17     you, was anyone held accountable, Perkovic, for instance?"  You said,

18     Mr. Hurko, your answer was:  "He was before a court in Sarajevo and I was

19     a witness there, yes."

20             Could you clarify the year that you were a witness in Sarajevo?

21        A.   2009.  I think it was the 15th of October, 2009.

22             MR. GAYNOR:  That's the only question I have.  Thank you,

23     Mr. President.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Hurko, that concludes your evidence.

25     On behalf of the Chamber and the Tribunal, I would like to thank you for

Page 18378

 1     your coming to The Hague to give it.  Now you are free to go.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Please have a safe journey home.

 4                           [The witness withdrew]

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Your next witness?

 6             MR. GAYNOR:  The next witness is Mr. Amir [sic] Bazdar.  While

 7     he's coming in, Mr. President, I want to point out, first of all, myself

 8     and Mr. Robinson have agreed that the testimony of Mr. Bazdar was

 9     disclosed to the Defence on the 5th of July, 2011, having been received

10     by the Prosecution on the 22nd of June, 2011.  It was the same batch of

11     disclosure as Mr. Hurko's evidence.

12             The second point is:  Could we have five minutes at the end of

13     the witness's evidence to make an oral application, please.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

15             Yes, Mr. Robinson.

16             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, I can confirm that we did in

17     fact receive it, and I can only apologise and tell you really we don't

18     know what we have because we have so much material.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

20                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I ...

22                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I tender this judgement?

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I tender this judgement from

Page 18379

 1     Sarajevo?  Can I have it admitted?

 2             MR. GAYNOR:  There's no objection from the Prosecution.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yeah, I don't see any problem.  That will be

 4     admitted.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D1665, Your Honours.

 6                           [The witness entered court]

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Good afternoon, sir.

 8             Probably it was -- and I will deal with this.

 9             Good afternoon, sir.  Do you hear me in your language?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Yes, good afternoon.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  If you could take the solemn

12     declaration, please.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

14     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Please be seated and make yourself

16     comfortable.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Before we hear the evidence of this witness,

19     probably I asked you whether -- how we should deal with the witness

20     statement of the previous witness.

21             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, Mr. President, I saw the transcript in relation

22     to that.  My proposal was to speak to the witness, now that he has

23     concluded his evidence, to see what his position on the matter is and

24     then to revert to Your Honours.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you very much.

Page 18380

 1             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Gaynor.

 3             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you.

 4                           WITNESS:  ARMIN BAZDAR

 5                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 6                           Examination by Mr. Gaynor:

 7        Q.   Witness, could you state your full name, please.

 8        A.   My name is Armin Bazdar.

 9        Q.   What is your current occupation?

10        A.   I'm a police officer.

11             MR. GAYNOR:  Could I call up, please, 65 ter 07472.

12        Q.   Is it correct that you provided a statement to investigators of

13     this Tribunal which you signed on the 23rd of January, 1999?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Did you have an opportunity to go through that statement

16     yesterday in detail and to identify a number of corrections which you

17     wished to make to it before you adopt it as your evidence?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   I'd like to go through the corrections which you have identified

20     and to ask you to make two clarifications which you've identified.

21             At page 2, the last paragraph:  The words "they knew the war was

22     going to break out" should read "they believed the war was going to break

23     out."

24             Page 3, second paragraph:  "I know that the JNA had" should read

25     "I heard that the JNA had ."

Page 18381

 1             Page 3, fourth paragraph:  The date "April 4th, 1992" should read

 2     "3rd June, 1992" --

 3        A.   I do apologise.  Could you just slow down a bit so that I can

 4     follow this.  It's tiny and you're moving so fast through all of this.

 5     Could you just slow down a bit.

 6        Q.   Yes, I can indeed.  Mr. Witness, I can assure you that these are

 7     the changes that you have already informed us of, but if there is any --

 8        A.   Okay, but -- well, fine.  But just do slow down so that I can

 9     follow all of this.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I understand the witness.

11             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Why don't you go one by one so that the witness can

13     follow.

14             MR. GAYNOR:  Certainly.

15        Q.   Would you like me to begin at the beginning, Witness?

16        A.   You don't have to.  You can go on now.  You can go on from where

17     you stopped.

18        Q.   Okay.  Now, Mr. Witness, in your statement it says "there was one

19     man killed during this attack on our village."  That's, in the English,

20     page 3, in the fourth paragraph.  I believe it's the third paragraph,

21     last sentence, on the version which appears on the left, Mr. Witness.

22             THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

23             MR. GAYNOR:

24        Q.   Is it correct you want to clarify that the man who was killed was

25     a Muslim civilian called Becir Ramovic?

Page 18382

 1        A.   Yes, I just wanted to say that because that was not written in

 2     the statement.

 3             MR. GAYNOR:  If we could go, now, to the next page, please.

 4        Q.   Sixth paragraph in English.  I'm going to read the relevant

 5     words.  You said "members of the White Eagles," and you wish to change

 6     that to read "members of the White Eagles and local Serbs."

 7        A.   [No interpretation]

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We cannot hear the witness

 9     because of background noise.

10             MR. GAYNOR:

11        Q.   Could you repeat your answer, please, Witness.

12        A.   Yes, yes.

13        Q.   Page 4, sixth paragraph.  It refers to "buses and trucks."  You

14     wish to correct that to read "one bus and three trucks."  Is that

15     correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Page 4, the seventh paragraph in English.  It said "I was young,

18     only 14," you wish that to read "I was young, only 15."

19        A.   Yes, that's correct.

20        Q.   Page 4, the eighth paragraph.  It refers to "two offices"; you

21     wish that to read "two rooms"?

22        A.   [No interpretation]

23        Q.   The original reads "two offices."  We're talking about a place

24     where you were placed in R asadnik.  Your original says "we were placed

25     in two offices with no furniture"; you wish it to read "we were placed in

Page 18383

 1     two rooms with no furniture"?

 2        A.   Yes, certainly.  However, this also has to do with

 3     interpretation.  A moment ago the interpreter said "two officers," not

 4     "two offices."  But what you said just now is correct.  So there are

 5     these translation and interpretation issues.  I don't know who this is

 6     who is interpreting this, but this person said "two officers" instead of

 7     "two offices."  So instead of saying that I wanted to say "two rooms"

 8     rather than "two offices," this person said "rather than two officers."

 9             I really don't know why this kind of thing happens.

10        Q.   Thank you.  The correction is clear.  Thank you.

11             Page 5, paragraph 5.  It refers to a woman called Neda, N-e-d-a;

12     is it correct that her name is in fact Nada, as appears in paragraph 3?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Page 5, the fifth -- the fifth paragraph.  It says that you

15     were -- you got out by the front line near a shelter.  Is it correct that

16     you wish to change that to a "naturally sheltered area," rather than

17     "shelter"?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Page 6, paragraph 1, you referred to a Serb named Spiro.  Is it

20     correct that you were referring to a Serb whose nickname is Spiro, whose

21     real name is Dragoje Paunovic?

22        A.   Yes, that's correct.

23        Q.   Page 6, the second paragraph.  The original says "I managed to

24     speak with my uncle for a few minutes ..." you wish that to read "I

25     managed to speak with my uncle for a few seconds."

Page 18384

 1        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 2        Q.   And the fifth paragraph on page 6, where you give an account of

 3     the execution, you wish to add that 24 Muslim male civilians were

 4     executed in that incident.  Is that correct?

 5        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 6        Q.   Page 7, fourth paragraph.  I want to draw your attention to the

 7     sequence in which it is stated in your statement and then I wish to

 8     invite you to make whatever correction you wish.  This refers to after

 9     you separated from Ago Kapo.  You said:

10             "We separated.  I walked about 18 hours in the woods.  I hid

11     along the way.  On this night, the Serbs did see me and fired at me.  I

12     was crawling on my hands and knees.  I was lucky enough not to get shot

13     again.  I managed to hide myself under leaves.  The Serbs never found

14     me."

15             Would you care to clarify the sequence of events.

16        A.   Yes, of course I'll do that.  When we separated, I hid below --

17     underneath some leaves in order to move on, hoping to get away from the

18     execution site.  After that, a group of these Serbs saw me, these Serbs

19     who had returned to the execution site.  They opened fire at me.  One of

20     them actually ran after me hoping to catch me.  Then I continued crawling

21     across this meadow.  After that, I stood up and fled into the nearby

22     forest.  So then comes the rest; namely, that I wandered around the

23     forest for 18 hours until I reached the line of the Territorial Defence

24     of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

25             That would be roughly a summary of that paragraph that was not in

Page 18385

 1     the right chronological order.  So there are no significant changes apart

 2     from this chronology.

 3        Q.   In your statement on the same page, at paragraphs 4 and 5, this

 4     is page 7, there is a reference to "Muslim Territorial Defence."  Is it

 5     correct that you wish that to read "Bosnia and Herzegovina

 6     Territorial Defence"?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   You give an account in the fifth paragraph on this page - and I

 9     believe it's the next page in B/C/S, please - of the verification by the

10     TO forces that you were a Muslim and that they gave you first aid.  I

11     believe that you wish to clarify the sequence in which you were provided

12     with first aid and the manner of verification.  Do you wish to do that?

13        A.   You've already said that yourself.  If necessary, I shall

14     clarify.  But you have put it right just now.  If necessary, I can

15     explain further.

16        Q.   Please just explain in a few sentences.  Thank you.

17        A.   Very well.  When I reached this line that was under the control

18     of the Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the first thing that

19     happened was that I was given first aid.  Since I had been wounded in

20     both hands and arms.  I had four holes in my hands and arms, exit/entry

21     wounds due to the execution that had taken place on the previous day.

22     After that, the soldiers of the Territorial Defence of the BH told me to

23     unbutton my trousers so that they would be able to ascertain whether I

24     was a Muslim or not, namely, whether I had been circumcised.  I don't

25     know what the word you use is.

Page 18386

 1        Q.   Subject to the corrections which you've made and the

 2     clarifications that you've made, do you adopt that statement as your

 3     evidence?  And if you were asked questions on the same subjects today,

 4     would you provide the same answers?

 5        A.   Yes, certainly.

 6             MR. GAYNOR:  I tender that statement, Mr. President.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that will be admitted.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P3286, Your Honours.

 9             MR. GAYNOR:  Mr. President, I now propose to read a summary of

10     the statement for the public.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

12             MR. GAYNOR:  Mr. Bazdar is a Bosnian Muslim from the village of

13     Seljani in Rogatica municipality.  On 4th April 1992, the hamlet of

14     Ovlagije, which is near Seljani, was shelled.  Following the attack, Serb

15     soldiers rounded up Muslim inhabitants in Seljani and held them under a

16     form of house arrest for four months.

17             On 4th of August, 1992, Serb soldiers transported the Muslim

18     villagers in groups to the Veljko Vlahovic secondary school in Rogatica,

19     where other non-Serb inhabitants from Seljani were already detained.

20     Mr. Bazdar spent one night at the school.  During the course of that

21     night, he heard females screaming and crying.  He was later told that

22     women were raped at the school.

23             On 5th of August, 1992, White Eagles and local Serbs separated

24     the military-aged men from the women and children.  The women and

25     children were loaded onto buses and trucks and transported from Rogatica

Page 18387

 1     for exchange.  Mr. Bazdar was taken with other Muslim males to Rasadnik,

 2     where he was instructed to clean vacated Muslim apartments which were to

 3     be used by Serbs.

 4             On 15th August 1992, Serb soldiers took Mr. Bazdar and other

 5     detainees to the front line in Duljevac, where a number of detainees were

 6     used by Serb soldiers as human shields.  Subsequently, a Serb soldier,

 7     Dragoje Paunovic, known as Spiro, ordered that the group of approximately

 8     27 Muslim males be killed.  Mr. Bazdar and two other detainees survived

 9     the execution.

10        Q.   Now, Mr. Bazdar, I want to take you to the 15th of August, 1992.

11     How old were you on that day?

12        A.   On that day I was 15 years old, 15 years, one month, and ten

13     days, that is.

14        Q.   Do you believe that you were the only person in the group taken

15     for execution who was aged under the age of 18?

16        A.   No, there were others who were younger than 18.

17        Q.   Would you be able to give your best estimate as to how many

18     others?

19        A.   No, I cannot state that with any certainty.  And I wouldn't like

20     to speculate, since I didn't know all of those people from before.  So

21     perhaps there were about five of us, up to five.  But please don't rely

22     on that as completely accurate.  But I think that that was how many of us

23     there were.

24        Q.   I want to take you to the moment when Mustafa Tankovic and

25     Hamdija Jasarevic said they were injured.  Do you recall that moment?

Page 18388

 1        A.   I do remember, but I would just like to draw your attention.  I

 2     am following the translation, the transcript what you're reading.  It's

 3     not the 4th of April, 1992, when the attack occurred at the beginning of

 4     your -- well, this document that you're reading now.  Yesterday I

 5     clarified that it wasn't the 4th of April, but it's the 3rd of June.  So

 6     at the very beginning when you were presenting this document - I don't

 7     know what it's called ...

 8             JUDGE KWON:  In any event, the summary Mr. Gaynor just read is

 9     not part of the evidence.  He just introduced the summary of your

10     evidence which was written in your statement for the benefit of the

11     public.  In any event, thank you very much for your clarification.

12             MR. GAYNOR:

13        Q.   Yes, thank you.  Apologies for not correcting the summary.

14             Now, I'd like to take you to the moment that I've just described,

15     where Mustafa Tankovic and Hamdija Jasarevic said they were injured.

16             Could you describe the sequence of events after that moment.

17        A.   After that, the sequence of events was as follows:  People were

18     being taken away as human shields.  Among them was Mustafa Tankovic and

19     Hamdija Jasarevic who were wounded.  After they were brought back from

20     being used as human shields with the other civilians, the Muslims who

21     were there, I joined them and a number of other people who did not go to

22     be used as human shields.  And when we joined them, I was standing next

23     to my uncle.  Since our hands were tied behind our backs individually,

24     each one of us had their hands tied behind their back, I touched my uncle

25     with my elbow and asked him, "Where are they taking us now?"  He told me

Page 18389

 1     quietly that it was all over for us and that we were going to be killed.

 2             After that, Dragoje Paunovic, called Spiro, came with those

 3     people who were returning from being used as human shields and ordered

 4     one of the soldiers, one of the Serb soldiers, to take us where he said

 5     we were to go.  This Serb soldier went where this guy told him to go.

 6     And then from the place where we joined up, where I joined the group with

 7     some other people, where we joined the people who were returning from

 8     being used as human shields, he took us to a meadow and ordered the

 9     soldier to stop.  In the meantime, he turned to us, Dragoje Paunovic,

10     aka Spiro, and asked if there were any among us who were wounded.

11     Hamdija Jasarevic spoke up, as well as Mustafa Tankovic.  And then Spiro

12     said, Just the two of you?  He was surprised and noted this:  Do you know

13     how many of our people have been killed or wounded?

14             When the soldier who was going in front of us approached, Spiro

15     ordered him to kill us.  The soldier passed by him cold-bloodedly, cocked

16     his automatic rifle, and started to kill the men one by one, starting at

17     the back of the column, as we were coming from the direction of that

18     point where we all joined up.

19             At that point, since there were younger people among us, as young

20     as I was and a little bit older ones, some spoke up and said:  Please,

21     uncle, don't; what have we done to you?  And then at that point

22     Dragoje Paunovic, aka Spiro, cocked his automatic rifle and began to fire

23     bursts of fire at us.  That's when I was hit in my left forearm.  I fell

24     with my face to the ground.  My uncle was standing on my left side just

25     before the shooting began, and after these bursts of fire, when I fell,

Page 18390

 1     he fell next to me.  And his head fell on my right hand or arm.  I heard

 2     him gurgling, drowning in his own blood.  It was evident that he was shot

 3     in the area of his chest and the lungs.  And after the execution, I saw

 4     that that indeed was so.

 5             That was when I decided to stand up and try to escape, because I

 6     saw that my uncle was bleeding from the mouth, from his nostrils, and

 7     from his ears.  Perhaps I changed the sequence, but I will try to explain

 8     that.  After the bursts of fire were over and the executions were done,

 9     there was individual shooting, I assume at those people who were still

10     showing signs of life.

11        Q.   Now, sir, Mr. Bazdar, could I ask you to come to one specific

12     point which you've described in your statement, which is a radio

13     conversation which you overheard after the execution had taken place.  Do

14     you recall that radio conversation?

15        A.   Yes, I was just about to speak about that.  And as I said, I kind

16     of switched the chronology around.  I just wanted to add this in order to

17     avoid any kind of misunderstandings, and then I will answer your

18     question.

19             If you agree.

20        Q.   Please go ahead.

21        A.   Then there was the individual shooting, and, as I said, that I

22     could hear my uncle gurgling.  He was shot a second time with a bullet to

23     the head, and that same bullet hit me in the right forearm.  And I had

24     the feeling that my arm was blown off.

25             After that, you could hear the radio which I actually noticed

Page 18391

 1     before the actual act of the execution took place was in the hands of

 2     Paunovic, aka Spiro, and I could hear somebody through it saying, Who is

 3     shooting?  Then there was an answer by Dragoje Paunovic, aka Spiro:

 4     Spiro, Spiro is shooting.  And then after that there was a question by

 5     Dragoje Paunovic, aka Spiro:  Who's asking?  And then the answer came:

 6     "Rajko Kusic."

 7        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Bazdar.

 8             MR. GAYNOR:  Mr. President, no further questions.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE KWON:  It's about your request, Mr. Robinson, to postpone

12     the cross-examination of this witness to tomorrow.  But having reviewed

13     the changes made by the witness, and in particular given that Mr. Gaynor

14     has kindly went over one by one about those changes, there should be no

15     problem in Mr. Karadzic starting his cross-examination today.

16             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I thought that one more

18     argument for postponement would also be the fact that I cannot finish my

19     cross-examination today, but it's as you decide.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we have 20 minutes.  Let's not waste time.

21     Thank you, Mr. Karadzic.

22                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

23        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Bazdar.

24        A.   Good afternoon.

25        Q.   Before I ask any questions, I would like to express my solidarity

Page 18392

 1     with you because you survived and because you went through all of those

 2     losses.  And I would like you to know that during my questioning I do not

 3     wish to bring into question anything about you.  All I'm seeking to do is

 4     to ask you to help us to clarify who was doing what.

 5             So I would now like to ask you whether on page 3 of your

 6     statement about this 4th or April or the 3rd of June; which one is it?

 7        A.   It's the 3rd of June.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  And then a little bit lower on the same page, the

 9     third paragraph down, you said that over the next few days Serb soldiers

10     came house to house and ordered us to move in with families of other

11     Muslims so that they could control us within a smaller number of houses.

12     Is that correct?

13        A.   They moved in several families into one house so that it would be

14     easier to monitor those of us who stayed behind.  So that it would be

15     easier for them to keep their eye on us.

16        Q.   Thank you.  And those at were homes of relatives, number of

17     relatives would be placed in one house.  Is that right?  You said that

18     you were able to go out, you could take care of your cattle, do some

19     little farming work, take care of your household chores, but you didn't

20     go anywhere; is that correct?

21        A.   Well, the only thing that we could do is this specifically.  In

22     my father's house, there were four or five families, so there was only

23     one family of relatives, actually, and the other families were

24     neighbours.  And all we were able to do was go to the stable where the

25     cattle was.  That was it.  We could take care of the animals so that they

Page 18393

 1     wouldn't die.  Everything else was not possible.

 2        Q.   Well, in other places you said that you could do some small

 3     agricultural tasks.

 4        A.   Well, perhaps it's a question of translation.  There were no

 5     farms as such.  These were just stables with a few animals, and that was

 6     it.  Perhaps there was some kind of understanding that it was a farm

 7     because of the translation.

 8        Q.   Well, yeah, it's a question of language.  Can you please tell us,

 9     in paragraph 6, on page 3, you said that these were Serb soldiers, that

10     they were wearing camouflage uniforms and had SDS insignia.  Could you

11     please tell us what SDS insignia is, how does that look like?

12        A.   When I say "SDS insignia," I mean the tri-colour insignia, the

13     flag, the red, white, and blue.

14        Q.   Well, it's not an SDS insignia.  It's a flag.

15        A.   Well, I don't know.  When I was speaking about SDS insignia, I

16     was actually thinking of these characteristic colours, the three colours

17     of the flag.

18        Q.   Thank you.  And in some places you describe some sort of Chetniks

19     or White Eagles.  What were they dressed in and what insignia did they

20     have?

21        A.   Specifically for the White Eagles they wore camouflage uniforms

22     with red berets on their heads, and they had a two-headed white eagle as

23     a kind of crest on that uniform.  And, of course, I could tell by the

24     accent that they were speaking in, in the Ekavica accent.

25        Q.   So by their accent you concluded that these were not local Serbs;

Page 18394

 1     is that right?  Is that what you're trying to say?

 2        A.   Yes, when I'm talking about the White Eagles.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  On page 4 you say that on the 4th of August, 1992,

 4     three local Serb soldiers came to your house and said that they were

 5     expecting an attack from the Territorial Defence and that they viewed it

 6     as a Muslim offensive force.  Is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes, three or four.  I think there were four of these Serb

 8     neighbours.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  And they said that because of that they were going to

10     take you to the high school facility in Rogatica for your own safety; is

11     that correct?

12        A.   Well, actually, it's better to say that they lied to us.

13        Q.   But that is what they told you; is that right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Other than a few men, mostly it was women and children.  And do

16     you know that there were a few Serbs in the high school centre as well as

17     a few loyal Muslims who then went home, and these other ones then went to

18     prison?  Are you aware of that?

19        A.   No, I'm not aware of that.

20        Q.   Thank you.  And you say that you were 15 years old at the time;

21     that was one of your corrections.  You were always tall, is that right,

22     so that the Serbs thought you were older?  This is also something that

23     you said on page 4 in paragraph 5; is that correct?

24        A.   Well, I wasn't always tall, but when I was 15 I was somewhat

25     taller than my peers.

Page 18395

 1        Q.   And probably more masculine, more adult; is that right?

 2        A.   Well, I've just answered that question.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  And you say on the same page that you had hunting

 4     weapons, but then they found 2.000 bullets on you.  Was that

 5     2.000 hunting rifle cartridges, or are you talking about bullets?

 6     Because 2.000 cartridges takes up a lot of space, does it not?

 7        A.   No, I didn't say that I had a hunting rifle.  That's not correct.

 8     And I did not state that we had 2.000 bullets.  What I said was that my

 9     father had a hunting weapon for which he had a regular licence or permit.

10     But I was told by the Serbian soldiers, by Kovacevic, I think his name is

11     Radenko, who, on the third day of my captivity, came in an official

12     police vehicle, and he told me that -- i.e., that 2.000 pieces of

13     ammunition were found underneath the bath-tub and that he wanted me to

14     hand over the hunting rifle that belonged to my father.

15        Q.   Thank you.  But then you left and found two hunting rifles that

16     your father had hidden there; is that right?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And then you had some sort of work duty and you were doing

19     various kinds of things, cleaning; is that correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And do you know that the Serbs also were subject to work duty?

22     Whoever was not at the front line had to do something according to the

23     All People's Defence law; did you know that?

24        A.   No.  Since I was 15, I didn't have to know that.  And for as long

25     as I was captured, I didn't see any single Serb doing any kind of work

Page 18396

 1     that we, captured Muslims, were doing at the time.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  You say on page 5 that a Serb soldier came named

 3     Radislav Ljubinac, nicknamed Pjano.  Why was that his nickname?  Was he

 4     well-known as an alcoholic?  Because that is a nickname for alcoholics;

 5     right?

 6        A.   I don't know.  I just know that this was his name and surname and

 7     his nickname.

 8        Q.   In the minibus that they were driving you in, there were two

 9     Serbs, a certain Djeric and a certain Nada; right?  And you reached

10     Duljevac, that's the name, right?

11        A.   Yes, Duljevac.

12        Q.   Thank you.  You saw about 50 Chetniks there.  Do you say that all

13     Serbs are Chetniks, like many others do, or was this a separate group

14     that had long hair, beards, characteristic caps?  And what was on these

15     caps?  You say two-headed eagles, and what about those cross-bones?  Can

16     you identify them?  Can you describe them?  Can you describe what they

17     looked like?  What led you to believe that they were Chetniks or to call

18     them that?

19        A.   You are putting five questions to me at once.  I would like to

20     ask you to put specific questions one by one if you're interested in

21     something in particular.  I am not going to give you general answers to

22     general questions like this.

23        Q.   All right.  How did you ascertain that these were Chetniks,

24     unless you call all Serbs Chetniks?

25        A.   Inter alia, not all of them had those greasy caps of yours,

Page 18397

 1     whatever you call them, and cockades with those skulls.  There were

 2     others wearing camouflage uniforms in addition to these unkept ones,

 3     their hygiene was poor, their hair was dirty.  There were others, though,

 4     with proper haircuts and tidy.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  On page 5 you do not mention them.  You mention

 6     50 Chetniks.  And I'm just asking you:  What made you call them Chetniks?

 7     Were -- were the two-headed eagles the thing that led you call them

 8     Chetniks, or was it something else?

 9        A.   I've already answered that question.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, we'll stop here for today.

12             Mr. Gaynor, you would like to address us in the absence of the

13     witness?

14             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, I think that would be best.  It's actually

15     Ms. Edgerton who will be making the motion.  It will be best in the

16     absence of the witness.  Thank you.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Bazdar.  We'll continue tomorrow

18     morning at 9.00.  So during the course of your evidence, giving

19     testimony, please do not discuss about your evidence with anybody.  Do

20     you understand that?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well, yes, yes.  Fine.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Okay.  Please have a pleasant evening.  I'll see you

23     tomorrow morning.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25                           [The witness stands down]

Page 18398

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

 2             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I'm back before you

 3     again this afternoon in respect of an oral motion for protective measures

 4     that I'd like to make for a subsequent witness, so if we could go into

 5     private session for this, please.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 7                           [Private session]

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 18399











11  Pages 18399-18403 redacted. Private session.















Page 18404

 1                           [Open session]

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, everybody --

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I?  May I say something?

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Can we not do it tomorrow?  We're past the time by

 5     seven minutes, with the indulgence of the staff.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's just one sentence, though.

 7     Actually, I would like to ask you to look at this.  Maybe I need to

 8     submit a motion in writing, to receive amalgamated statements in Serbian.

 9     Neither the witnesses nor I have this in our own language, so it's a

10     major problem.  It's late anyway and it's in a foreign language and

11     translations and formulations are sometimes very difficult, they have a

12     double meaning.

13             JUDGE KWON:  That's a settled matter.  If you need -- if you

14     wish, you need to make a motion in writing.

15             We'll rise for today.  And tomorrow we'll resume at 9.00.

16                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.07 p.m.,

17                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 6th day of

18                           September, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.