Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 18565

 1                           Thursday, 8 September 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.  Is there anything to be

 6     raised before we begin today?

 7             Mr. Robinson.

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  Thank you.  First of all, our

 9     team wants to welcome back Mr. Sladojevic who is married now and we are

10     happy to have him back with us.

11             Mr. President, the next witness, KDZ601, is proposed as a witness

12     under 92 ter, and it's our request that you require his testimony be

13     given viva voce.  The material that the Prosecution proposes to use for

14     the 92 ter statement is an investigative interview, a transcript of an

15     investigative interview that was done with the witness in 2005.  And we

16     believe that this is not a proper document which should serve as a 92 ter

17     statement which is the equivalent of direct examination, has the same

18     weight as direct examination.  This was an exploratory essentially first

19     interview by an investigator with this witness some six years ago.

20             We believe that Rule 92 ter doesn't apply to this kind of

21     interview because the text of 92 ter says that a Trial Chamber may admit

22     in whole or in part the evidence of a witness in the form of a written

23     statement, which this is not, this is a transcript of an oral interview,

24     or a transcript of evidence given by a witness in proceedings before the

25     Tribunal, which this is also not.  It's not a transcript of proceedings

Page 18566

 1     before the Tribunal in terms of testimony before in another trial.  And

 2     we think that this is particularly -- should be applied in this case

 3     because this interview is almost incoherent.  The witness skips around

 4     from topic to topic.  He talks about collecting information from people,

 5     since the initial meeting with OTP.  That's at page 10.  He offers to get

 6     names and forward to the investigator, that's at page 12.  He talks about

 7     comments made at a burial by unknown people at page 18.  He talks about

 8     things he learned in the middle of last year, which would have been 2004,

 9     some 12 years after the events, on page 19.  And then on page 23, he says

10     this is my assumption, when he's talking about something.  So I don't

11     think that this is a kind of document the Chamber should accept as

12     something in lieu of direct testimony because most of this would never

13     have been allowed if the witness were giving evidence before a Court and

14     I would ask that the Chamber ask the witness -- if you're in doubt, ask

15     the witness whether or not he would give the same -- whether he would say

16     these same things if examined which is part of Rule 92 ter(A)(3).

17     Because in our interview with him yesterday, he said that while what he

18     said was the truth or was accurate, that it was not in a format or in a

19     form in which he was very clear.

20             So for all of those reasons we would ask that the Chamber hear

21     this witness viva voce.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Can I hear from the Prosecution?

23             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honours, with respect to this witness,

24     I would submit that any of the arguments that Mr. Robinson has raised are

25     matters which can be dealt with by Dr. Karadzic during the course of his

Page 18567

 1     cross-examination.  Something -- if something is offered by the witness,

 2     as Mr. Robinson refers to, which might be without an explanation for its

 3     basis, that's also -- that's a matter which goes to weight rather than a

 4     basis on which to convert a witness to be heard live.

 5             When I hear this and when I was first informed of this argument,

 6     I went back to the transcript of evidence, wondering if I'd been

 7     completely misguided in my earlier assessment, and I found nothing that

 8     would warrant such a dramatic measure.  Rather, I found matters which

 9     could be -- benefit from an amplification which is what we propose to do

10     during the evidence in-chief today.

11             So, Your Honours -- and indeed, Mr. Robinson has already

12     indicated that during the course of the interview last night, the witness

13     stated that he found the transcript to be an accurate transcript.

14             So I would submit there is absolutely no basis to convert the

15     witness to anything other than what he is now.

16             JUDGE KWON:  I wonder whether you can help us as to the -- in

17     regards to the legal issue, whether written statement would include an

18     investigator's interview.

19             MR. TIEGER:  Let me point out briefly, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE KWON:  You can make reference to something, either

21     jurisprudence or decisions.

22             MR. TIEGER:  Well, yes, thank you.  We would have been in a

23     better position to do so if this matter had been raised with us earlier

24     when we were notified that the matter would be raised.  This legal issue

25     was not referenced in any way whatsoever.  So we would of course have

Page 18568

 1     gone to the books to address that issue had it been raised.

 2             Now, dealing with it on my feet at the moment --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  I'm asking because I remember having dealt with

 4     similar issues in the past.

 5             MR. TIEGER:  Yes.  I think we can find the jurisprudence and

 6     hopefully we could find it quickly, but, as I say, that was the problem

 7     and we are not immediately prepared with the citations at hand.  However,

 8     I would say that it should be clear from the text of 92 ter that it is

 9     not -- that the formality comes in the attestation by the witness in open

10     court saying, This written document here, that's what I'd say to you.

11     There is no need to repeat it.  I've read it.  It's accurate.  You can

12     rely on it.  That's the point.  The previous formalities are not the

13     issue.  So in -- and if it was, then you could have the admission of that

14     document without the need for the witness in court.  So these are two

15     quite separate matters.  I think on the face of 92 ter, this argument is

16     specious, but unfortunately because we were not notified that this

17     particular argument would be made, although there was ample opportunity

18     to do that, I can't cite the particular jurisprudence for you at this

19     very moment.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Would you like to add something, Mr. Robinson?

21             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, I believe we have dealt with

22     this issue once before and I'm not exactly sure which witness it was.  It

23     may have been KDZ-555, and I think that you rejected our argument and

24     then when it -- had to hear the witness and decided that he should

25     testify viva voce for other reasons.  That's my recollection of that.

Page 18569

 1     But for Mr. Tieger's benefit, it was on Saturday that I notified him that

 2     we would be objecting and we would be asking that there be viva voce

 3     testimony, and he scolded me to the Chamber for including argument in my

 4     e-mail.  So I think it's a little bit inconsistent to be complaining that

 5     I didn't raise the issue and make the argument in advance when, in fact,

 6     I did give them quite a bit of notice that we were raising this issue.

 7             MR. TIEGER:  I'm sorry, Your Honour, but I really do need to

 8     clarify that.  As I responded to Mr. Robinson at that time, his point was

 9     the one that -- he's made two points, the one that Ms. Edgerton referred

10     to.  And that is based on his e-mail she went back to the document to see

11     whether the substance of the document, which was exactly -- which was

12     what Mr. Robinson said he objected to, was problematic.  And we --

13     Ms. Edgerton looked at it.  I looked at it.  I responded to

14     Mr. Robinson's e-mail on that basis saying that his factual assertions

15     about what was or wasn't in the document were inaccurate based on our

16     review of the document.  There was no suggestion that he was going to

17     make this legal argument and that's what I'm responding to now.  So it's

18     true he said he was going to raise an objection but it wasn't this

19     objection.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

22             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honours, I have found where that sort of

23     thing has been dealt with previously, and it's with respect to a witness

24     who had no protective measures, Dragan Vidovic.  In that case, a

25     transcript of an audio recording of an interview with the OTP was

Page 18570

 1     admitted as a 92 ter statement for that witness, and that was P3191.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  And at the time, was an objection raised in that

 3     regard?

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  No.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we upload P3191?  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

 6             MR. TIEGER:  Just a reminder, and I'm grateful to Mr. Robinson

 7     for this acknowledgement, as he noted it was raised in another context;

 8     in other words, this very argument by Mr. Robinson was raised before the

 9     Court, rejected by the Court, although that particular witness was heard

10     viva voce for other reasons.  So it's been admitted without objection and

11     it's been rejected by the Court when the objection was made.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber will rise to consider this matter for

14     about a quarter of an hour.

15                           --- Break taken at 9.17 a.m.

16                           --- On resuming at 10.03 a.m.

17             JUDGE KWON:  This is the ruling of the Chamber:  The Chamber is

18     of the view that the transcript of an interview conducted by the OTP

19     investigator is included in the written statement in the context of

20     Rule 92 ter.

21             The Chamber wishes specifically to refer to the decision made in

22     the Popovic et al. case which was issued 31st of May, 2007, on the motion

23     to convert viva voce witnesses to Rule 92 ter witnesses.  The

24     Popovic Chamber in that decision stated that the main purpose of Rule 92

25     ter is to foster the efficient and expeditious conduct of trial

Page 18571

 1     proceedings in accordance with the rights of the accused, and therefore,

 2     there is no reason to limit the scope of Rule 92 ter to a specific means

 3     of documenting evidence, and in general, the requirement of a written

 4     statement should be considered as fulfilled when the witness's words are

 5     documented and preserved.

 6             The Chamber further stated as to the concern about the

 7     authenticity and veracity of transcript of audio-recorded interviews,

 8     that the Chamber is satisfied by Rule 92 ter, which sets out a sufficient

 9     framework of safeguards by requiring that the witness will attest in

10     court to the accuracy of his or her written statement and be available

11     for cross-examination.

12             The Chamber further stated that although a transcript of an

13     audio-recorded interview includes the words of the interviewers, this

14     Trial Chamber is composed of professional judges with the experience and

15     ability to discern the contents of evidence and give it the appropriate

16     weight.

17             Finally, the Chamber also stated that the accused will not be

18     prejudiced as a result of the admission of a transcript of an

19     audio-recorded interview as a written statement pursuant to Rule 92 ter,

20     and that excluding the transcript of an audio-recorded interview from the

21     scope of Rule 92 ter would be contrary to the underlying rationale of

22     that rule.

23             This Chamber adopts the reasoning taken by the Popovic Chamber.

24             Further, although in the context of Rule 66(A)(ii), the Chamber

25     notes the Appeals Chamber decision where it defined the meaning of

Page 18572

 1     "witness statement" in relation to Rule 66(A)(ii), where it stated the

 2     account -- where it stated that witness statement is to be interpreted as

 3     the account of a person's knowledge of a crime, which is recorded through

 4     due procedure in the course of an investigation into the crime.

 5             The Chamber is of the view that that Appeals Chamber's definition

 6     is also consistent with the Chamber's ruling.

 7             Further, we note the previous practice in which the interview

 8     transcript has been admitted in this proceeding.

 9             I would like to end with the remarks to Mr. Robinson that in the

10     future, if it relates to the matter of principle, the objection should be

11     raised at the first moment available.

12             Unless there is any other matters to be raised, we will bring in

13     the witness.  We should go into private session?  No.

14                           [The witness entered court]

15             JUDGE KWON:  If the witness could take the solemn declaration,

16     please.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

18     speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

19                           WITNESS:  KDZ-601

20                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

21             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Good morning, sir.  Please be seated and

22     make yourself comfortable.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.  Thank you very much.

24             JUDGE KWON:  We need to lift the curtain.

25             Sir, before you begin your testimony, I wanted to say a few words

Page 18573

 1     to you first.  You will be referred to in the proceedings as KDZ-601.  In

 2     this regard, you will be testifying with the benefit of pseudonym, which

 3     is KDZ-601, as I said to you, and image and voice distortion.  This means

 4     that there will be no reference to your real name or information which

 5     might reveal your identity to the public or media.  Also, the audiovisual

 6     record of your testimony, which is broadcast to the public, will have a

 7     distorted image, and distorted voice to ensure that your identity is

 8     protected.

 9             I think we can show the image to the witness, image of the

10     witness.

11             This will be how you'll be seen to the public.  And the

12     transcript, while available to the public, will always refer to your

13     pseudonym.

14             Do you understand, sir?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Miss Edgerton.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.  Could we have 65 ter 90275, the

18     pseudonym sheet, brought up, please?

19                           Examination by Ms. Edgerton:

20        Q.   Mr. Witness, do you understand me in your own language?  Can you

21     hear me in a language you understand?

22        A.   Yes, thank you.

23        Q.   Now, in a few moments, you'll see displayed on the computer

24     monitor in front of you a sheet of paper with your pseudonym number and

25     your name on it.  Is your name accurately set out there?

Page 18574

 1        A.   It is correct.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  Could we have that as the first exhibit under seal

 4     in relation to this witness?

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P3298, under seal, Your Honours.

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

 8        Q.   Now, Mr. Witness, back in 2005, you were interviewed by a

 9     representative of the Office of the Prosecutor from this Tribunal;

10     correct?

11        A.   Correct.

12        Q.   And was that interview audio-recorded?

13        A.   It was audio-recorded.

14        Q.   And yesterday, in preparation for testifying here this morning,

15     did you read a transcript in your own language of that recording?

16        A.   I read it.

17        Q.   And did you find it to be accurate, as far as you're able to

18     remember?

19        A.   That was it, basically.

20        Q.   And if I was to ask you all the same questions today that you

21     were asked at that time, would you give the same answers?

22        A.   I'd give the same answers.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             MS. EDGERTON:  Then could I tender 65 ter 22641, the transcript

25     of the audio recording we just referred to, as the next Prosecution

Page 18575

 1     exhibit, please?

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, we already made our objection noted

 3     and you rejected it so nothing further.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  For the reasons indicated earlier on, we will

 5     admit it.  We reject the objection of the -- from the Defence and we will

 6     admit it.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P3299 under seal, Your Honours.

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.  I'll now read a brief summary of the

 9     written evidence that's just been filed.

10             The witness was a member of the Bosnian Serb police forces

11     serving and active in and around Bosnian Serb-held Sarajevo in the early

12     part of 1992, in the months after the outbreak of war.

13             His evidence refers to two detention facilities in the Sarajevo

14     municipalities, Kula and the gymnasium as Pale.  He talks about the

15     presence and actions of paramilitaries in areas of the western

16     peripheries of the city of Sarajevo, making reference to

17     Branislav Gavrilovic, the White Eagles, volunteers from Belgrade and

18     Arkan's men, as well as Oljaca's Chetnik group.  The witness talks about

19     the transfer of prisoners between Hadzici, Lukavica and Kula, as well as

20     between Kula and the gymnasium in Pale, and also the exchange of

21     detainees at Vrbanja Bridge.  Detainees at the Kula prison were brought

22     there by the VRS, police and paramilitary groups.  The witness visited

23     the scene of the bus massacre in Ahatovici, Scheduled Incident B.12.2 in

24     relation to this indictment, and gives evidence related to that incident.

25             That's the summary of the witness's evidence.

Page 18576

 1        Q.   Now, Mr. Witness, I'd like to ask you some additional questions

 2     generally related to that evidence.  My first question is regarding the

 3     duties of the officers at the Kula police station.  Did that include

 4     manning the front lines?

 5        A.   That was compulsory.  There was an order from the public security

 6     station of Ilidza and of the Ministry of the Interior.

 7        Q.   Do you know who served as chief of the public security station of

 8     Ilidza?

 9        A.   The chief of the public security station of Ilidza was

10     Tomo Kovac.

11        Q.   And the Ministry of the Interior?

12        A.   Mr. Mico Stanisic.

13        Q.   Do you know what areas officers from the Kula station -- what

14     areas of the front line officers of the Kula station served at?

15        A.   Several places.  I'm going to refer to all of them.  First of

16     all, Dobrinja.  Now, I'm not sure whether it's 1, 2, 3 or 4.  I don't

17     know what the separation there was at the time.  Then the Jewish

18     Cemetery.  And the area of Mojmilo, Ozrenska, Zagorska Streets, in the

19     combat area, in the area where the separation was too.

20        Q.   Did the Jewish Cemetery and Ozrenska an Zagorska Street also

21     within the territorial jurisdiction of Ilidza municipality?

22        A.   Only Dobrinja fell under the territorial jurisdiction of the

23     municipality of Ilidza, the rest was the municipality of Novo Sarajevo

24     and part of the Old Town, Stari Grad.

25        Q.   In these other areas which fell within Novo Sarajevo and the

Page 18577

 1     Old Town, Stari Grad, do you know under whose operational command

 2     officers from the Kula station were when they served at those locations

 3     of the front line?

 4        A.   In co-ordination with the special unit of the Ministry of

 5     the Interior of Republika Srpska.

 6        Q.   Do you know who commanded that special unit?

 7        A.   Mr. Milenko Karisik, commander.

 8        Q.   Did local civilian authorities ever request support from units

 9     that were part of the Kula police station?

10        A.   There were requests from the Crisis Staff, and the chief of the

11     public security station of Novo Sarajevo would refuse that as

12     unrealistic.

13        Q.   When you say "requests from the Crisis Staff," do you mean to

14     refer to any Crisis Staff in particular?

15        A.   Kasindol, the Crisis Staff that was stationed in Kasindol.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Now, just to keep on the subject of the duties of the

17     officers that were part of the Kula police station, the guards at Kula

18     were also for a period part of the Kula station, were they not?

19        A.   Belonged to the Ministry of Justice.  However, in terms of work

20     assignments, they were deployed at the Kula police station because there

21     was an agreement between the minister of the interior, Mico Stanisic, and

22     Momcilo Mandic, because it was impossible, as far as I know, to have the

23     Ministry of Justice open a gyro account of his own and pay salaries.

24     However, it was noted that they were guards of the KP Dom Butmir, the

25     correctional facility of Butmir.

Page 18578

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Now, yesterday, in preparing for your testimony, we

 2     had a second look at a sketch of the Kula compound you had drawn some

 3     years ago, didn't we?

 4        A.   Yes, yes, that's correct.

 5        Q.   And yesterday, did you make some additional markings on that

 6     sketch?

 7        A.   Yes.  I made some additional markings, and I placed numbers

 8     there.

 9             MS. EDGERTON:  Could we have a look at that sketch, please.  It's

10     65 ter 23243A, and it shouldn't be broadcast because of the name that

11     appears on it.  Thank you.

12        Q.   Is this the same sketch you annotated yesterday, Mr. Witness?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Perhaps you could explain a couple of additional markings or the

15     markings you made yesterday to us.  Do we need to enlarge that image for

16     you or can you see it okay?

17        A.   Could you please zoom in a bit more, if possible?  Thank you.

18        Q.   Is the main entrance to the Kula compound marked on this sketch?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   What's it marked with?

21        A.   A red arrow.

22             MS. EDGERTON:  Could you lift this sketch up a little bit,

23     please.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Do we need to make it upside down?

25             MS. EDGERTON:  That would be a good idea.

Page 18579

 1             JUDGE KWON:  And zoom further.

 2             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

 3        Q.   Do you see the red arrow, then, identifying the main entrance?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Is that the red arrow with the number 4 beside it?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   What's marked -- what did you mean to designate with the marking

 8     of the number 5?

 9        A.   Number 5 indicates the area where a policeman was on duty,

10     controlling the main entrance.  This is an area where the public security

11     premises were located, as well as those belonging to the

12     Ministry of Justice.

13        Q.   Were there any tanks in the compound at Kula?

14        A.   Yes, there were two tanks.

15        Q.   Are they marked here on this sketch?

16        A.   They are marked with number 6.

17        Q.   Did they remain at those locations or did they move?

18        A.   At night-time, they would move about, or in the afternoon hours.

19        Q.   And where would they go to, do you know?

20        A.   They would go to the intersection not far from the KP Dom, and on

21     a couple of occasions, they moved in the direction of the road leading to

22     the airport.

23        Q.   Whose tanks were they?

24        A.   They were tanks of the Yugoslav People's Army.  As the JNA

25     withdrew, they came to belong to the Territorial Defence.

Page 18580

 1        Q.   Now, on this sketch I see a number of crosses marked with the

 2     number 7.  Does that designate anything?

 3        A.   The markings with the number 7 indicate the locations where

 4     members of the special units of the Army of Yugoslavia were billeted as

 5     well as the crews operating the tanks.

 6        Q.   Do you remember how long the special units of the Army of

 7     Yugoslavia remained billeted there?

 8        A.   They stayed there until the hand over of the airport in Sarajevo.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10        A.   You're welcome.

11        Q.   You said in your written evidence that civilians were brought

12     into Kula by the military, the police and paramilitary forces, and that's

13     at page 13.  I wonder whether you saw if these JNA forces you've just

14     referred to did the same.

15        A.   Yes.  Especially the special purpose unit.

16        Q.   Do you remember how this special unit, the members of the special

17     unit, were dressed?

18        A.   Yes, I do.  As any other elite special unit, its members had a

19     special sort of uniform, and they had infantry weapons.

20        Q.   These infantry weapons that they had and the special sort of

21     uniform, could you describe them?

22        A.   I will try to recall them as best I can.  These were camouflage

23     uniforms with flak jackets over them, protective helmets and protective

24     collar.  The weapons were infantry, small arms, the calibres ranging from

25     9 to 12 millimetres.  Some of the weapons they had I saw for the first

Page 18581

 1     time there and then.

 2        Q.   How did those uniforms and equipment and weapons compare with,

 3     for example, the equipment and arms and material of the members of the

 4     police station at Kula?

 5        A.   The difference was in the quality and colour.  What they had was

 6     far more modern and lethal.

 7        Q.   And how did you know that they belonged to the JNA forces?

 8        A.   The cars that they used bore the insignia of the JNA, or rather

 9     of that special unit.  I can't really remember what it looked like.  They

10     were under the command of a professional officer wearing a special

11     uniform of the Yugoslav People's Army.

12        Q.   Thank you.  And if we can just go back to this sketch for a

13     moment, if you could please move it a little bit so we could see the

14     bottom part of the page displayed, there is a rectangle on this sketch

15     with a small X on it marked with the number 2, Mr. Witness.  Do you see

16     that?

17        A.   Yes, I do.

18        Q.   Was there anything located in this building?

19        A.   It was a small structure built of very strong material.  It had

20     two small rooms where interrogations took place of the individuals who

21     were brought in.

22        Q.   And do you know who conducted those interrogations?

23        A.   I know that authorised members of the state security of the

24     Ministry of the Interior carried out these interrogations, as did members

25     of the military security of the JNA, and the operatives of the crime

Page 18582

 1     police of the public security station of Novi Grad Kula, as well as

 2     members of the various centres and the headquarters of the Ministry of

 3     the Interior.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5        A.   You're welcome.

 6        Q.   And one last question for everyone's benefit, probably about how

 7     to understand this sketch.  When you looked at the sketch yesterday, did

 8     you see it had been preserved on two separate sheets of paper?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And if -- how, then, should we understand how the two pieces of

11     paper relate to one another?

12        A.   I can explain that.

13        Q.   And before you do, perhaps we could call up 65 ter 23243, which

14     is the unannotated version.

15             MS. EDGERTON:  And I wonder if we might be able to display the

16     two pieces of paper side by side, and, please, not for broadcast.  That's

17     not it yet.  Still not.  23243.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Page 3 of four pages.

19             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes.

20             JUDGE KWON:  You mean Page 3 of that --

21             MS. EDGERTON:  Exactly.

22        Q.   Now --

23             JUDGE KWON:  Probably we need to turn around one of the pages.

24     I leave it in your hands because I do not know.

25             MS. EDGERTON:  I think we'll all know soon, Your Honour.  Thank

Page 18583

 1     you.

 2        Q.   Mr. Witness, does the way these two pages are laid out now

 3     accurately reflect the layout of the Kula complex, if you -- as you

 4     remember it?  Or do they need to be rearranged?

 5        A.   I find it difficult to gather what this sketch is.  I think that

 6     this sketch, and correct me if I'm wrong, indicates an area where for

 7     sometime before my arrival there, shells landed from the positions of the

 8     BH Army at Igman.

 9        Q.   Correct.  That's what you explained in your statement.  And,

10     Mr. Witness, if we took the image that's depicted on the left-hand side

11     of the page and shifted it over to the right and then took the image

12     that's on the right-hand side of the page and shifted it over, would that

13     more accurately depict the layout of the compound of Kula, as you

14     remember it?

15             MS. EDGERTON:  So if we just reverse the order of these.  And

16     then the image on the right-hand side of the page, if we could turn it

17     upside down, please.

18        Q.   As displayed, Mr. Witness, does this layout represent an accurate

19     rendering of the compound at Kula, to your recollection?

20        A.   I don't think so.

21        Q.   And how so not?  And it's just in terms of how these two pages

22     relate to one another, how they should be displayed so the Chamber and

23     all of us understand.  Do we need to rearrange the two pages again?

24        A.   Would you kindly give me the other sketch, which indicates part

25     of the fence of the KP Dom compound and the police station.  I think that

Page 18584

 1     the other sketch indicates accurately the situation as it was.

 2        Q.   Then I think we -- I think the witness might be asking for 23243,

 3     page 1 to be displayed on the right-hand side.  Is this what you were

 4     looking for, Mr. Witness?  I just want to know if these two sketches as

 5     laid out are how the Judges should understand the layout of the compound.

 6        A.   No, no.  The sketch on the left-hand side needs to be replaced

 7     with the other sketch where you can see the fence or the edge of the

 8     compound of the KP Dom.

 9        Q.   I think I'll leave that until I can understand a little bit

10     better what the witness is referring to, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

12             MS. EDGERTON:  But in the meantime, I'd like to tender 23243A,

13     please.

14             JUDGE KWON:  When you were with the witness when he marked the

15     numbers, new numbers, and put his signature --

16             MS. EDGERTON:  Correct.

17             JUDGE KWON:  -- you could have asked him to put his pseudonym

18     instead of his real name so that we can admit it publicly.  Just bear

19     that in mind.

20             MS. EDGERTON:  Of course.

21             JUDGE KWON:  We will admit it under seal.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P3300, Your Honours, under seal.

23             MS. EDGERTON:  I think, though, Your Honours, as I look back,

24     with respect, I might have made the decision I did because his initials

25     appear on the original version as well.  So I was constrained.  But

Page 18585

 1     moving at speed again, my apologies.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  I misunderstood that his initials were made recently

 3     but it was made a long time ago, in 2005.

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  Correct.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Now I understood.

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.  We could remove that from the screen.

 7        Q.   Now, you confirmed a short while ago that paramilitary forces

 8     were involved in bringing civilians into Kula, and I'd like to know

 9     whether any units, and you named some of them at page 14 of your

10     statement, were more involved in this than others.

11        A.   From what I was able to observe in my line of duty, I stated what

12     I did in my statement.

13        Q.   Were any paramilitary units more involved in bringing prisoners

14     to Kula than others?

15        A.   Units of the JNA, in that period of time, and less so some of the

16     other self-organised and self-proclaimed units, because there weren't

17     many of them in that period, as well as the Territorial Defence of the

18     Vojkovici area.

19        Q.   Was the Chetnik Oljaca group involved in bringing prisoners to

20     Kula?

21        A.   Yes, in co-ordination with Territorial Defence of Vojkovici, the

22     battalion there, and as far as I know, to a lesser extent, independently.

23        Q.   Did have you occasion to see the commander of the group who,

24     I assume from your description, was named Oljaca?

25        A.   Yes.  I did.  Because he would drop by the Kula police station

Page 18586

 1     and the public security station, as well as by the KP Dom.

 2        Q.   Do you remember how he would be dressed?

 3        A.   Yes.  I remember it clearly.  It was for the first time then that

 4     I saw black uniforms, woollen uniforms, and the cockade on the peaked cap

 5     that their commander wore.  I was told that he was a major by rank.

 6        Q.   Do you know where he came from?

 7        A.   I was told that he came from the area of Valjevo.

 8        Q.   Do you know in what army he held that rank of major?

 9        A.   I think it was a rank belonging to that Chetnik movement.

10        Q.   Do you know in what area or what municipality he acted in?

11        A.   To the best of my knowledge, in the area of Kotorac, Ilidza, and

12     solely the areas in the direction of Ahatovici and Hadzici.

13             MS. EDGERTON:  Your indulgence for just a moment.

14        Q.   The prisoners that he and members of this group would bring to

15     Kula, do you know -- did those prisoners that were brought to Kula, that

16     you've referred to, come from those locations?

17        A.   From what I know, yes.

18        Q.   Do you know the ethnicities of those prisoners you've just

19     referred to?

20        A.   I assume they were Serbs.  I could tell that by their names.

21        Q.   Did you -- how did you come to know their names?

22        A.   I heard it from my work colleagues who were in touch with the

23     KP Dom.  There were several names of those who were members of that

24     Chetnik unit who, for having committed certain infractions during combat

25     activities, had been sanctioned by their own commander.

Page 18587

 1        Q.   So I understand you learned the ethnicities of prisoners from

 2     some of your colleagues, and you also learned that there were members of

 3     that unit who had been sanctioned for certain infractions.  Did you

 4     also -- did you learn that from your colleagues as well?

 5        A.   Yes, that's right.

 6        Q.   Now, were the prisoners that this group brought to Kula

 7     exclusively Serb, or did -- were there other ethnicities as well?

 8        A.   There were several ethnicities.  All the groups and all the

 9     participants in combat activities, or, as they call it in practice,

10     combing activities, would, as a result of that, bring in men, all the men

11     from an area who would be interrogated and thereafter sent to other

12     locations.

13        Q.   Where would the Serbs who were brought in and interrogated be

14     sent?  What would happen to them?

15        A.   To the best of my knowledge, they were sent to the

16     Lukavica Barracks.  Some of those who had previously been members of the

17     reserve police force downtown or in the periphery were deployed to man

18     the Kula police station, which was understaffed.

19        Q.   What would happen to the non-Serbs who were brought in and

20     interrogated?

21        A.   From what I know, in that period of time, exchanges were

22     arranged, but quite a lot of crime was committed as well.  This came out

23     later on when information was obtained.

24        Q.   Now, you mentioned that some of the members of this unit were

25     sanctioned by their own commander for infractions they had committed.

Page 18588

 1     What kind of -- do you know what kind of infractions those were?

 2        A.   Based on what I was told, it involved drinking and individuals

 3     who failed to perform the obligations and tasks they were given by their

 4     commanders.

 5        Q.   Did that group, Oljaca, remain in place in the area as long as

 6     you did?

 7        A.   I think so, yes.

 8        Q.   What makes you think so?

 9        A.   Had they been removed or had they left, I would have probably

10     found out about it.

11        Q.   Where were they based?

12        A.   The information that I have indicates that they were stationed

13     between the Kotorac and Vojkovici neighbourhoods in houses of people who

14     had been moved out, Muslims.

15        Q.   In which municipality does Kotorac -- do the areas of Kotorac and

16     Vojkovici fall?

17        A.   Municipality of Ilidza.

18        Q.   Thank you.  We will move on then to another area.

19        A.   You're welcome.

20        Q.   Are you aware what units -- first of all, are you aware of the

21     location of the settlement of Ahatovici in the western periphery of

22     Sarajevo?

23        A.   Right now, yes, but during the war, I wasn't aware of that

24     settlement, no.

25        Q.   Did you know that the settlement was attacked by Serb forces in

Page 18589

 1     late May and the first days of June 1992?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Did you learn --

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I intervene.  In the

 5     transcript, the witness did not say "yes," but he said "cuo sam,"

 6     "I heard."  And that's different.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  How did you answer, Mr. Witness?  Could you repeat

 8     your answer?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said I heard, but you could also

10     confirm it with a yes.

11             MS. EDGERTON:

12        Q.   Did you learn what units took part in this attack on Ahatovici?

13        A.   Among other things, the group of Chetniks, reinforced with the

14     battalion and also members of the police forces from that station area,

15     the Ilidza Battalion.

16        Q.   The group of Chetniks, referring to a group in particular?

17        A.   It's the group that we were discussing, the Oljaca group of

18     Chetniks.

19        Q.   And members of police forces from what station area?

20        A.   I'm thinking of the public security station Ilidza, that

21     comprised a number of reserve forces police stations.

22        Q.   How do you know this?

23        A.   From conversations with people who would come to Kula, and from

24     the operatives who were conducting these talks with the people.

25        Q.   What people who would come to Kula?  From conversations with what

Page 18590

 1     people who would come to Kula?

 2        A.   The operatives of the Novi Grad security station that was based

 3     in Kula.

 4        Q.   Okay.  You talked about two sources of information on which you

 5     based your answer.  The first was conversations with people who would

 6     come to Kula, and the second was the operatives who were conducting talks

 7     with these people.  When you referred to the operatives of the Novi Grad

 8     security station that was based in Kula, are those the operatives who

 9     were conducting talks with people?

10        A.   Basically yes.

11        Q.   The operatives who were conducting talks with captured people?

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16             MS. EDGERTON:  I think the answer at page 26 calls for a

17     redaction, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

19             MS. EDGERTON:

20        Q.   Now, to go back to the first part of your answer, you said you

21     also learned this, who had taken part in the attack, from conversations

22     with people who would come to Kula.  What people were they?

23        A.   Members of the public security station, the station in Ilidza.

24        Q.   Now, to move on, but also still on the subject of events in

25     Ahatovici, in your written evidence, you referred to the shooting of a

Page 18591

 1     bus load of prisoners from Ahatovici, saying that Gavrilovic,

 2     Branislav Gavrilovic, and his units were the group that shot up the bus.

 3     And that's at pages 37 to 39 and 42 to 43.  So I wonder how you know that

 4     it was Gavrilovic and his unit who did this.  What's the basis of your

 5     information?

 6        A.   Well, there is a misunderstanding here.  I mentioned Gavrilovic

 7     in the context of Kasindolska Street.  I would need to look at that part

 8     of the statement.

 9        Q.   Do you have it with you?

10        A.   I will try to find it.

11        Q.   Pages 37 through to 39, and 42 and 43.

12             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honours, while the witness does that,

13     I wonder what time you were contemplating for the breaks today given that

14     we had a late start.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Depends upon how much longer you would need to

16     conclude your in chief examination.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  At least ten minutes, probably not more than 15.

18             JUDGE KWON:  So we'll break after your examination-in-chief is

19     over.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I found it.

21             MS. EDGERTON:

22        Q.   So could you just tell us how -- what makes you believe, or how

23     you know that Gavrilovic was responsible for shooting the bus load of

24     prisoners?

25        A.   By going to the Vogosca police station, to the chief of the

Page 18592

 1     station's office, where a number of operatives were present, there was

 2     talk about that event, and one of those present said that that was that

 3     group of Gavrilovic.  I said that there was a misunderstanding because

 4     I viewed that case with the bus, that incident, separately where some

 5     people were hurt.  Separately from the Ahatovici operation.  But it is

 6     true that I did hear that in that police station.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Now, to move on, you referred in your evidence to 10

 8     to 12 buses of civilians coming from Hadzici to Kula one night and you

 9     said that they were taken to Lukavica.  Do you remember approximately the

10     date that that took place?

11        A.   I cannot recall the exact date, but it is true that one twilight,

12     just as it was getting dark, those buses did appear at the entrance of

13     the KP Dom.

14        Q.   Do you remember if the date was -- if this happened before or

15     after the airport was handed over?

16        A.   I cannot really say either way, but thinking, just like that,

17     it's possible that this perhaps happened before the hand over, but I

18     don't know how they could have arrived unless they used a round-about

19     route of some 250 kilometres.

20        Q.   With the type of escort that you outlined in your written

21     evidence, military police and police, would such a route have been easy

22     to accomplish?

23        A.   I think that that route would be exhausting and risky, and I'm

24     not sure if the buses could tackle the macadam curves in the road,

25     especially in Centar municipality, Nahorevo, Crepoljsko and Stari Grad

Page 18593

 1     neighbourhoods.

 2        Q.   Where did they arrive from?

 3        A.   They said that it was the Hadzici area towards Ilidza.

 4        Q.   Did you learn the ethnicity of the people on the bus?

 5        A.   Yes.  They were Muslims, Bosniaks, Muslims at that time.  That's

 6     what was said.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Now, in your written evidence, you referred to the

 8     cleansing of Kotorac by military troops, and that's at page 5.  Which

 9     military troops were you referring to?

10        A.   The forces or the troops of the Yugoslav People's Army.

11        Q.   How do you know?

12        A.   The operation was conducted by a professional JNA officer,

13     Major Sladoje or Sladoja, I'm not sure.  That's his last name.

14        Q.   When did this take place?

15        A.   I think it was in June.

16        Q.   Why do you think it was in June?

17        A.   I allow for the possibility that it was late May, early June.

18     I really cannot remember.

19        Q.   Now, finally, you referred in your evidence to two members of the

20     Srpska Narodna Garda in black uniforms who introduced themselves as the

21     deputy and assistant of Arkan coming to Kula.  Do you remember when this

22     was?

23        A.   In the second half of May.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             MS. EDGERTON:  That concludes the examination-in-chief,

Page 18594

 1     Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  We will take a break now for half an

 3     hour and we will resume at 10 to 12.00.

 4                           --- Recess taken at 11.19 a.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 11.51 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  We forgot to deal with associated exhibits.

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  Exactly why I'm on my feet, Your Honour.  I've

 8     only got one outstanding associated exhibit, 23244, that I'd like to move

 9     in, please, Your Honour.  That was an exhibit, actually, that in our

10     notification we had requested leave to add as well.  But it is referred

11     to in the witness's written evidence at pages 61 to 64.

12             JUDGE KWON:  That will be admitted, but what about 65 ter 23243?

13             MS. EDGERTON:  Well, the annotated version of that, so in

14     addition to the markings he put on the original version --

15             JUDGE KWON:  That's sufficient to cover.  The annotated version

16     is only two pages, if I'm correct, if my memory is correct.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  I think so, too, Your Honour.  And I can't

18     remember, actually, as I stand on my feet whether I had actually tendered

19     that document as well, and my apologies for that.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Annotated version was admitted as Exhibit 3300.

21             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes, and we had the discussion about it.  Thank

22     you, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE KWON:  But in terms of completeness, we can admit this one

24     as an associated exhibit, if there is no opposition.

25             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

Page 18595

 1             JUDGE KWON:  23243, under seal.

 2             MS. EDGERTON:  And, of course, 23244 doesn't have the same

 3     restrictions at all.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  We will give the number.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  65 ter 23243 will be Exhibit

 6     P3301 under seal, and 65 ter 23244 will be Exhibit P3302.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Witness, sir, you will be further asked by the

 8     accused, Mr. Radovan Karadzic, in his cross-examination.

 9             Mr. Karadzic, in light of the fact that we -- he's a protected

10     witness, please formulate your questions so as not to reveal the identity

11     of the witness.  And, sir, whenever you find that your answer may reveal

12     the identity of yourself, please don't hesitate to let us know to go into

13     private session.  Do you understand, sir?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I understand, thank you.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Good day, your Excellencies.  Good

17     day to everyone.

18                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

19        Q.   [Interpretation] Witness, sir, good day.

20        A.   Thank you.  Good day to you as well.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] As always, Excellencies, I'm going

22     to do everything --

23             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  For planning purposes, we will break

24     at 1.00 for an hour.  Please go ahead.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I'm just saying that as

Page 18596

 1     always I will do everything to take the witness's circumstances into

 2     account and I would kindly also ask for the OTP, and I will also respect

 3     that, when we approach anything sensitive, that we would ask for a

 4     private session but I see that Mr. Tieger is on his feet.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

 6             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you.  Only for a scheduling matter.  I wonder

 7     if under the circumstances -- I think we had an inquiry from VW whether

 8     they should be advised that the next witness will not be expected to

 9     testify today and can be brought back.

10             JUDGE KWON:  That may be the case.  I don't think we will be able

11     to finish the cross-examination of this witness today.  Thank you.

12             THE ACCUSED:  [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Witness, sir, first of all, thank you for meeting with the

15     Defence via videolink yesterday, and I hope that that will help us to

16     clarify things that need clarifying, and once again, I would like to

17     thank you for that.

18             I would like to ask you a little bit about the pre-war period,

19     that is also something that you touch upon in your statement.  You were

20     not a member of any party and you were not a member of the Serbian

21     Democratic Party; is that correct?

22        A.   No, I was not.  Yes, that is correct.

23        Q.   I have to ask you, and I have to ask myself, to make breaks

24     between question and answer so that the interpreters could keep up.  And

25     if you follow the transcript, then you will see when they are finished.

Page 18597

 1        A.   Yes.  I will try to keep that in mind.

 2        Q.   Do you remember that there was a general inter-party level of the

 3     coalition party, the SDA, the SDS and the HDZ about the distribution of

 4     posts from the Presidency down encompassing all the important posts in

 5     the state organs?

 6        A.   Yes, I remember that.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Witness, one way to find when you should start

 9     your answer is take a look at the transcript, and when it stops, it's

10     time when the interpretation has been completed.  Please take it into

11     account.

12             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14        Q.   Do you remember that immediately after the elections, there were

15     quite considerable tensions because the SDA did not stick to the

16     agreement, namely it did not rush to appoint the Serbian cadre even

17     though the Muslim cadre was already in place?

18        A.   I remember that period, and I attended numerous talks amongst my

19     colleagues who belonged to the Serb side.

20        Q.   Do you agree that the Serbian Democratic Party left its cadre

21     policy in the police forces to professionals who, at those higher senior

22     official levels, were not members of the SDS?

23        A.   I am aware that what you are asserting is correct.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know at the time, or did you find out later,

25     and I believe that you probably did know this at the time, that Serb

Page 18598

 1     cadres were illegally monitored, those in the police and those in the

 2     political posts, by Muslim cadres or personnel who had taken the

 3     eavesdropping equipment and placed it at the disposal of the SDA?

 4        A.   I am aware of the eavesdropping, and also monitoring some of the

 5     Serb cadres.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember that, already in the spring of 1991,

 7     the secret arming of the Muslim people started, through Slovenia and

 8     Croatia and through alleged humanitarian organisations, and that this

 9     arming was assisted by high officials of the MUP who were ethnic Muslims?

10        A.   To be quite honest, in order to have the truth proven, I learned

11     about that from the media.  Later on, as I did the work I did in the

12     Ministry of the Interior, I became convinced by way of written dispatches

13     and other information coming from the field.

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20        A.   I would suggest moving into closed session.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Perhaps this question should be

22     redacted altogether; right?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If possible, could you rephrase?

24             JUDGE KWON:  We don't need to do that.  We will go into private

25     session.

Page 18599

 1                           [Private session]

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 18600

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16                           [Open session]

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Do you agree, therefore, that obviously there were separations

19     very early on along ethnic lines within the MUP, from top to bottom but

20     especially at the top?  Also that this resulted in the marginalisation of

21     Serb personnel and their removal from positions where they could have

22     insight into the secret arming and preparations for the creation of a

23     BH Army within the MUP?

24        A.   I remember that period of time.  And I'm not very happy to

25     comment on it, but I will try, as briefly as possible.  I personally did

Page 18601

 1     not have such problems, but there were public security stations and

 2     police stations where there were serious problems.  Among others, I would

 3     like to mention the second station within Sarajevo centre and it has to

 4     do with the commander, the "komandir."  People who worked there for a

 5     long time and who were professionals, tried to keep this professionalism

 6     and this homogeneous nature of the work involved.  However, people who

 7     came from the ranks of general citizens took some top positions and,

 8     believe me, I say this as a human being and a professional, it was very

 9     hard for professionals to carry out their duties.  That is what I have to

10     say by way of an answer.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Do we agree that the positions that belonged to the

12     Serb people were not taken by individuals who had never been in the

13     police force before; whereas the SDA brought you Mirsad Srebrenikovic and

14     other people like that who were actually priests by vocation?

15        A.   I could agree with your statement, and there were these cases.

16     Things like that happened.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember -- or, actually, did you know that on

18     31st of March, a decision was made on the establishment of the

19     Patriotic League, and on the 30th of April the Patriotic league was

20     formed, all of this in 1991, or did you find out about that later?

21        A.   Good friends of mine who were ethnic Muslims told me about that

22     (redacted)

23        Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember that on 10th or 11th of June 1991, at

24     the Dom Milicije, a secret or semi-secret meeting was held, a large

25     gathering, where the council of the SDA for the defence of Muslims was

Page 18602

 1     established and that the meeting was secured by policemen who were ethnic

 2     Muslims only?

 3        A.   I'm aware of that case, (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5        Q.   If necessary, that can be redacted as well.  Actually, that is

 6     why I dealt with this in closed session.  Do you know that the president

 7     of that council was Mr. Izetbegovic, who, as president of the Presidency,

 8     was the president of the joint council for defence in the republic?

 9        A.   I learned about that a month or two after the event actually took

10     place.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Did you have any knowledge to the effect that the

12     Green Berets, or rather, the Patriotic League, or rather, these groups --

13     actually, do you agree that they included a large number of criminals,

14     like Juka Prazina and the like?

15        A.   I knew about that.  That is correct, that quite a few criminals

16     were in these Green Berets.  Later on, we had many problems with these

17     persons as we carried out our regular duties, we in the public security.

18        Q.   You're talking about the time considerably before the war, when

19     they were taking over particular facilities; right?

20        A.   That kind of thing did happen.  That is correct.  And there were

21     serious problems in student dormitories, at the hospital in Kosevo and so

22     on.  That is to say, facilities that were covered (redacted)

23        Q.   Is it correct that, for example, they were checking who was

24     coming and going to and from the Kosevo hospital considerably before the

25     war started?

Page 18603

 1        A.   It is correct that they carried out checks.  We had serious

 2     problems when we intervened in that hospital of Kosevo, especially in the

 3     period of time when Mr. Ostojic was brought to the hospital, when he was

 4     wounded in the area of the municipality of Ilidza.

 5        Q.   You are talking about the minister of information in the joint

 6     government who was beaten up by metal bars; right?

 7        A.   Yes, thank you for reminding me, exactly.

 8        Q.   Is it correct that what had been noticed was that prominent Serbs

 9     or Serbs who were disliked or most Serbs, especially officials in the

10     police and former officers, pensioned/retired officers, had markings

11     placed on their doors so that people would know that it's a Serb

12     apartment?

13        A.   That was something that happened - and citizens reported that, as

14     did military personnel and other officials - primarily in the

15     municipality of Centar in the neighbourhood of Ciglane where most of

16     these high-ranking officers lived.  Perhaps you had occasion to see a

17     memo that I wrote to the Prosecutor's office or the Defence stating that

18     my apartment had been marked as was the apartment of Professor Miskovic,

19     a very well known professor at the Sarajevo University.  I think that

20     this hasn't been removed to this day from my door.  It was carved in, the

21     letter V, it was two centimetres long and one centimetre deep.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Was this alarming?  Did that alarm persons who

23     realised that their apartments had been marked?

24        A.   In conversations with people who reported on such occurrences, we

25     felt that they were panic-stricken, that there was trepidation in their

Page 18604

 1     souls and that they were concerns about the safety of themselves and

 2     their families.  I personally was not upset.  I thought that this was an

 3     irresponsible group of people who were doing that, but later on what

 4     turned out to be the case was actually quite different.

 5        Q.   What turned out to be the case later?  Was this efficient?  Did

 6     this indicate to criminals where they could go in and do something?

 7        A.   Yes.  That's what it turned out to be the case in practice.

 8        Q.   Do you recall that at some point in early 1990, or 1991, a film

 9     was broadcast which had been secretly filmed with the minister of defence

10     of the Republic of Croatia, Spegelj, who gave the following instructions:

11     You ring the bell.  When they answer the door, you fire a bullet and move

12     on.  Was it not the case that coupled with this information, the markings

13     placed on the doors proved to be terrifying?

14        A.   I do recall that period of time and I do recall the broadcast.

15     It was aired repeatedly on TV.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that it was clear that Minister Ostojic

17     had been beaten up by Muslim extremists and that a lot was done to cover

18     up and suppress this information?

19        A.   That was the information that the general public was aware of.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that there was an increased number of

21     reserve policemen and the tendency was to have more Muslim reserve

22     policemen?

23        A.   There was an increase in the reserve police force as early as in

24     October.  Lists were drawn up based on percentages and calculations made

25     on the basis of the senior officer cadre in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Page 18605

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know that the SDA, in documents signed by

 2     Hasan Cengic, deployed members that were otherwise not part of the police

 3     force for training to Croatia in order to turn them into policemen one

 4     day?

 5        A.   I did hear that information.  Mr. Cengic resided in an area that

 6     (redacted)

 7     (redacted) who were of a moderate political stance told me this

 8     story.

 9        Q.   Did you have any knowledge of the negotiations concerning the

10     future of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and did you know that they resulted in the

11     signing of the Cutileiro agreement in March of 1992, whereby three

12     constituent units would have existed in Bosnia-Herzegovina for the three

13     peoples?

14        A.   Yes.  I was aware of it.  I followed these events on television

15     and in the press.

16        Q.   Do you recall that it envisaged a great deal of powers for these

17     constituent units, such as education, health care, almost everything

18     except for the foreign affairs and defence, and that, in among other

19     things, a constituent unit would be entitled to its own police force?

20        A.   Yes, I do recall that.  I do recall the negotiations and the

21     contents of the various documents.

22        Q.   Do you recall that in late March, in other words after the

23     acceptance of the agreement, two MUPs were set up, or, rather, the Serb

24     MUP was set up but the Muslim side was pretty undecided?  They were

25     considering the establishment of a joint Muslim-Croat MUP, but it had not

Page 18606

 1     yet been established by that time.

 2        A.   I do recall that period of time.  I remember the negotiations,

 3     and I can only say that it was quite a difficult period for the

 4     professionals working within the Ministry of the Interior.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that in that period, it was quite

 6     unadvisable to deploy Serb policemen to chase down criminals in a Muslim

 7     neighbourhood, and vice versa?  In other words, that there was ethnically

 8     based distrust within the police force?

 9        A.   I do recall that period.  I remember official documents and

10     working meetings where orders were given to take strict care of the

11     ethnicity of a policeman before he or she is deployed to an area.

12     I assure you that it was a very difficult thing to deal with for the

13     policemen and it was highly unpracticable for the work on the ground.  My

14     apologies.  There were even cases of citizens who sought police

15     intervention, would even in some cases send away policemen from their

16     yard even without knowing what their ethnicity was, even if they were of

17     the same ethnic group.  This affected the work of the police.  The

18     practice showed that citizens would seek intervention through individual

19     chiefs of police stations rather than through the appropriate call in

20     duty services.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Do you recall that these paramilitary and criminal

22     gangs were -- felt quite safe in their own neighbourhoods?  And do you

23     agree that it would not have been wise to send a Serb policeman to

24     Hrasnica or Stari Grad or perhaps dispatch Muslim policemen to Pofalici

25     or some other Serb neighbourhood?  Do you agree that criminals, in fact,

Page 18607

 1     could be quite resourceful on the basis of what the ethnicity of a

 2     policeman was and it affected police work?  What I want to say is that in

 3     addition to the abusive policies in the MUP where they wanted to --

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Can Mr. Karadzic please repeat his question.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, I'm sorry to intervene.

 6     Mr. Karadzic, could you repeat your question?  In particular, the last

 7     part.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Let me simplify.  Do you agree that the general distrust that

10     existed, as well as information about abusive practices in the MUP with a

11     view to establishing Armija, the Armija, was this the reason why

12     Cutileiro was asked that under the agreement the policing powers should

13     fall to individual constituent units?

14        A.   Yes.  I do agree with your statement.

15        Q.   As a professional, you frowned upon this idea, did you not?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   However, your superior told you at some point that you should

18     refrain from coming to work for a while, for your personal safety and

19     security.  Did you see this suggestion as a well -meaning one?

20        A.   I did spend a great deal of time with that individual.  We

21     socialised a great deal.  So I felt that it was a well-meaning comment.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that your Serb colleagues in areas where

23     Serbs were the majority, advised their colleagues that they should not

24     show up for work for a while until the situation calmed down?  Was this

25     not the sort of courteous relationship that existed among colleagues?

Page 18608

 1        A.   Yes.  There were such conversations taking place between

 2     individuals of the same ethnicity or different ethnicities, that one

 3     should side with one's own people and join the newly-established MUPs.

 4     Those were the conversations taking place.

 5        Q.   The transcript does not reflect what you said about the newly

 6     established MUPs which had been agreed upon; is that right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  This was an answer to my next question, but let's

 9     clarify this.  This sort of courtesy and amicable relations, was it not

10     the reason why members of one ethnicity would advise members of another

11     ethnicity not to come to work for a while, for their safety, just as your

12     boss told you?  This was not meant as a dismissal from work but simply

13     lying low, if we can say so, for one's own safety.

14        A.   Yes, exactly.

15        Q.   So you came to Vraca and were then dispatched to this other

16     station, the name of which we will not mention.  Is it accurate that you

17     found that the station was quite -- had quite a shortage of men and

18     equipment?  We could call up 148 -- 1D4187.  Unfortunately,

19     Your Excellencies, we don't have a translation but it's mostly figures so

20     I don't think there will be any problems.  We -- the translation is

21     pending.

22             Please have a look.  Is this a list of material and technical

23     equipment available, and were their quantities sufficient?  We can

24     perhaps look at what there was a lack of, what was in short supply.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Just a second.

Page 18609

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we look at the last page?

 2             JUDGE KWON:  No.  Shall we go into private session, briefly?

 3                           [Private session]

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 18610











11  Pages 18610-18612 redacted. Private session.















Page 18613

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24                           [Open session]

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation]  Can we look at 4201 in e-court,

Page 18614

 1     please, 1D4201.  And we can save on time.  This is the testimony of

 2     Mr. Avlijas in the case of Lalovic and others at the Bosnia-Herzegovina

 3     court.  Can we look at English page 14, let's say, and the Serbian page

 4     19, since it's already in the e-court.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Why don't you put your question, simply?  Why do you

 6     have to show and read out the transcript of other people's testimony?

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.  All right.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11        A.   Yes.  That is accurate information.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Do we agree that Slobodan Avlijas was a functionary

13     of the Ministry of Justice?

14        A.   Yes.  He was assistant minister of justice while I was in that

15     area.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that Lalovic, as the prison warden, and

17     others were put on trial in Sarajevo at the Bosnia-Herzegovina court for

18     events in the prison, and that they were acquitted in those proceedings?

19        A.   Yes, I am aware of that.

20        Q.   And since we have called up this document, can you please pay

21     attention to what Avlijas said and whether this corresponds to what you

22     knew, that this correction facility began to work sometime in July and

23     although it was a misdemeanour detention unit before?

24        A.   This was a lenient KP Dom where people were serving sentences of

25     up to six months imprisonment and those who had been sentenced for lesser

Page 18615

 1     misdemeanours or traffic violations.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3        A.   And it's not true that it began to operate in July.  When I came,

 4     I found those people there.  The dom was operational.

 5        Q.   But do you agree that at the time it became a stricter prison

 6     than it was before, perhaps this is what he meant?

 7        A.   Well, I really can't say.  I have no idea what he was thinking,

 8     believe me.

 9        Q.   All right.  And is it correct that they did not have all the best

10     conditions there, that there was a kitchen, that refugees were

11     accommodated above the kitchen, that the Serbian population from

12     Vojkovici and Krupac frequently moved and went to Kula or to the

13     hospital, and is this something that corresponds to what you know and

14     what you experienced?

15        A.   Well, I'm hearing this for the first time.  I'm hearing this for

16     the first time.  I don't know where they could have been accommodated.

17     I think I quite clearly showed the KP Dom facilities, those of the

18     police, those of the justice ministry.  I think that this had some kind

19     of different objective.  In the area above the kitchen, there were

20     members of the special unit who were billeted there until they left, also

21     the tank crews, and then a little bit farther down there were five rooms

22     occupied by members of the police when they were off duty, which

23     indicates that you cannot really accept this testimony, and this is

24     something new to me.

25        Q.   And you mentioned this kitchen as a kind of popular kitchen where

Page 18616

 1     many who did not belong to the police station or the KP Dom also came to

 2     have food, and that it was really a kitchen for the people, for the poor,

 3     in the true sense of the word.

 4        A.   Well, realistically speaking, all those who came, regardless if

 5     they were just passing through or if they were there on assignment or if

 6     they were employed there, they could use the kitchen.  It was available

 7     to all those who wanted to use it, because the KP Dom had its own farm,

 8     and it had large food reserves because that was its main activity, food

 9     production.  They had their own farming facilities.

10        Q.   Thank you.  And did they receive food regardless of their ethnic

11     affiliation or their -- whatever group they belonged to?  Could everybody

12     have food regardless of their religious affiliation?

13        A.   I can agree.  I can say yes because it was not just the members

14     of the KP Dom -- it was not just Serbs who were employed at the police

15     station and the KP Dom.

16        Q.   Are you trying to say that at the police station and among

17     personnel of the KP Dom, there were those who were not Serbs?

18        A.   I want to say that there were employees in the police and in the

19     KP Dom who were from mixed marriages, so you could not really say that

20     they had a definite ethnic affiliation.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think, Excellencies, just

22     checking whether your scheduling remains the same.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We will take a break now for an hour and

24     resume at 2.00.

25                           --- Recess taken at 1.00 p.m.

Page 18617

 1                           --- On resuming at 2.02 p.m.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.  Please continue and leave five

 3     minutes at the end of today's session.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.  Fine.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Witness, do you agree that the line of separation between the

 7     Serb and Muslim or Muslim-Croat forces from the beginning until the end

 8     of the war was more or less the same, say between Gornji and Donji

 9     Kotorac and that is about 2- or 300 metres away from Kula?

10        A.   I can agree with that.

11        Q.   Thank you.  And facing town, was the separation line in Dobrinja

12     and that is, say, 3- or 400 metres away from the barracks and perhaps 500

13     or 600 metres away from Kula?

14        A.   Roughly, yes.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that the front lines in Sarajevo often

16     went along streets, in Dobrinja itself, even through a particular

17     building, say the Serb army would be in one part of the building and the

18     Muslim army would be in another part of the building?

19        A.   There were such cases.

20        Q.   Now I'd like to interpret for you -- actually, can you tell the

21     Trial Chamber who Goran Macar was?

22        A.   I can expound.

23        Q.   Just say who he was and which position he held.

24        A.   In the old system, as we called this period, that was there

25     before these unfortunate conflicts, he was the chief of the operations

Page 18618

 1     service in the public security station of Sarajevo.  After the outbreak

 2     of the conflict, from the chief of the same service of the Serbian centre

 3     of Sarajevo to the head of the crime police in the headquarters of the

 4     police of Republika Srpska in Bijeljina.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  In these proceedings in Sarajevo that we mentioned --

 6     I beg your pardon, this is the interview with the OTP, in case one of the

 7     participants wants to cast a glance, that is 1D4200; 52 and 53 are the

 8     English pages, and I'm not going to have this called up.  It says that

 9     there was fighting, say, in Dobrinja and that sometimes 50 or 70

10     civilians would come to the barracks or to Kula from the front line and

11     there were civilians of all ethnicities there, and then it says that

12     Minister Stanisic ordered that as soon as conditions are created, that

13     they should be sent back to their apartments.  Is that your experience

14     too?

15        A.   Well, you see, you will allow me to make a comment, and at the

16     end I can make an assessment and you can draw your conclusion.

17        Q.   Is it your experience that during the fighting, from these

18     buildings that were on the front line, were civilians brought from this

19     front line?

20        A.   Yes.  Civilians were brought, large numbers, 50 to 100 persons.

21        Q.   These civilians, were they of all ethnic backgrounds?

22        A.   Yes, all ethnic backgrounds because at the front line, as

23     practice showed, ethnicity could not be determined.

24        Q.   Thank you.  You say in your statement, on page 17, lines 8 to 22,

25     you say that during mop-up operations in built-up areas, persons were put

Page 18619

 1     up at the KP Dom.  There were Muslims, Serbs, Croats, Roma and others.

 2     When you speak about mop-up, do you have in mind the military term,

 3     "Mop-up" of enemy forces?

 4        A.   Well, you see I'm going to try to explain this, the term that

 5     I wished to use.

 6        Q.   If it helps you any, please take a look at your own statement.

 7     That is page 17.  In Serbian, it is 16.  Number 16.  Page 16.

 8        A.   I found it, thank you.

 9        Q.   First of all, let us see, when one speaks of mop-up in the

10     context of a war, does one mean mopping up remaining enemy forces?

11        A.   Well, you see, perhaps I did not use the right term or perhaps it

12     was not translated properly.  I'm not sure.  But this was a term that was

13     used in the context of combat operations, at least in the area where

14     I was.  In some sense of the word, it can be accepted as "mop-up."  I can

15     try to explain because all the persons in that part of town were brought

16     in, men and women.  So I cannot define this specifically, this particular

17     word.

18        Q.   Thank you.  In the same paragraph, you say that operatives of the

19     public security station were in charge of making assessments as to who

20     should stay and who should be released; right?  And there were Serbs

21     there who had the same treatment, and they were transferred to Lukavica

22     after interviews; Lukavica, is that because they were military

23     conscripts?

24        A.   Yes, they were military conscripts, and the army was manned by

25     such persons.  Some of them who had been engaged before the war were

Page 18620

 1     trained in the field of security and, therefore, they then manned police

 2     stations, depending on their place of residence.  That was customary

 3     practice.

 4        Q.   Now that we are on the subject, was it easier to be a reservist

 5     in the police or was it easier to go to the front line?  Was that a

 6     privilege, basically?

 7        A.   People thought that it was a privilege.

 8        Q.   So did it happen that you were cleansing your police of

 9     reservists who exhibited a lack of discipline or lack of professional

10     training, and was that considered to be punishment?

11        A.   Well, I can agree there are written traces to that effect.

12     Sometimes, say, there would be 10 or 12 reservists from a particular

13     local commune, say Kasindol.  They did not meet the appropriate criteria

14     of being authorised officers, or, rather, being members of the police

15     force.

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 18621

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  May the Chamber move into private session, briefly.

 8                           [Private session]

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13                           [Open session]

14             THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we are now in open session again.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   So what I'd like to see is whether the Serbs, Muslims, Croats and

18     the Roma and all those you listed in this paragraph, if it is established

19     that they are guilty, then there is one outcome.  Otherwise, they are

20     released.  Whereas the Serbs, if they are under a military obligation,

21     they are dispatched to the barracks; right?

22        A.   Well, I must tell you that I don't know what the standard

23     practice was of operatives because that was part of their service.  As

24     far as the military conscripts are concerned, yes, I did have a standing

25     order from my superiors that these individuals should be taken to

Page 18622

 1     Lukavica, being military conscripts.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Is it true that this military obligation was in force

 3     only in respect of the Serbs and not the Muslims and the Croats and the

 4     rest?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   On page 18 of English, and page 25 of Serbian, you say that the

 7     minister of the interior signed an order whereby all those detained and

 8     imprisoned should be treated in keeping with the Geneva Conventions and

 9     that this was -- this was placed on the announcement board in the police

10     station; is that right?

11             MS. EDGERTON:  That's not on page 18.  Perhaps we could just

12     double check the page in English that the answer that Dr. Karadzic is

13     referring to appears on.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise.  Page 28.  It's the

15     18th of April but the page is 28, lines 1 through 4.  In Serbian, lines

16     11 through 14.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Witness, you can refer to your statement there.

19        A.   Yes.  This was an order that was publicly announced, but the

20     reference is not to prisoners but detained and captured.

21        Q.   Right.  Detained and captured.  So do you make this distinction

22     between detainees, inmates and captives?  Would somebody who is taken

23     captive, somebody who is taken captive in combat, for instance?  An

24     inmate would be someone who is already serving a prison sentence; whereas

25     a detainee would be someone who is under an investigation.

Page 18623

 1        A.   Yes.  I don't know what happened in the process of interpretation

 2     there but the term I used was "detained," those detained.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd like us to call up 65 ter 18346

 4     in e-court.  Page 3 of the document.  65 ter 18346, page 3.  It is quite

 5     possible that page 3 has not been translated, but can we please exhibit

 6     it because the witness will be able to identify it.  Can we show it here?

 7     Apparently, the entire document has one page, which is translated, but we

 8     have the entire document.  Can it be placed on the ELMO for a moment,

 9     please?

10             MS. EDGERTON:  So this 65 ter number Dr. Karadzic referred to is

11     actually D01533, but now we are seeing - I'm not sure I understand - a

12     fuller version of that document or other pages of that document or that's

13     what Dr. Karadzic proposes.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We were disclosed an entire batch

15     of documents under this number.  Perhaps subsequent modifications were

16     made but we received these disclosures under that number.

17             JUDGE KWON:  But it's a totally separate document, apparently.

18             MS. EDGERTON:  If you could just shove this document down on the

19     screen a little bit so we can see the number on the top right-hand corner

20     then we could see if we have some translations.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The ERN numbers are --

22             MS. EDGERTON:  I think I can help everyone.  This document that's

23     on the ELMO was previously admitted as D1530, I'm told.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Why don't you upload Exhibit D1530.  Yes.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 18624

 1        Q.   Mr. Witness, do you see the document?  It is dated the

 2     6th of September, but, despite that, is it consistent with what you know

 3     of the ministry's position?  Perhaps go through the document rather than

 4     me read it all.  (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we call up in e-court 1D4192?

12     Unfortunately we don't have the translation yet.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Are you done with the previous document which was

14     shown under the number 18346?  I wonder, if you put a question to the

15     witness.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I did.  Since the document is

17     already admitted, I have no further need of it.  The witness said that he

18     was familiar with the order and that he knew that there was a follow-up;

19     other documents resulted from this one, orders as well.

20             JUDGE KWON:  I was told that 18346 was marked for identification.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Madam Edgerton said that it had

22     already been assigned a D number, that it's an exhibit.

23             JUDGE KWON:  That's a separate exhibit.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If it's been admitted, well, the

25     first page only had the number of the entire batch.

Page 18625

 1             JUDGE KWON:  I checked the first one.  18346 has been marked for

 2     identification pending English translation.  And having observed the

 3     evidence, it's time to admit it in full.

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Let's proceed.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Is my understanding correct?  Is

 7     the document we discussed already admitted?  It's got a D number?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that has been already admitted but I was

 9     referring to the document you showed before that.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Mr. Witness, we don't have the translation yet, but I'll

13     summarise it.  On the 17th of April, 1992, Mr. Stanisic sends a warning,

14     and he says:  In certain public security stations, cases were recorded of

15     unlawful appropriation of moveables and immovables belonging to citizens,

16     businesses and institutions which had been committed by members of our

17     service.  And they mean the police.  It is further stated that the

18     strictest of measures will be applied, including termination of

19     employment, Prosecution, et cetera.  Further down it says that certain

20     individuals, who were involved in crime, did so sometimes in collusion

21     with some of our members, and it goes on to say that she should be called

22     to account before a court of law and that these assets should be seized

23     from them.

24             This was roughly at the time when you were transferred to the

25     MUP.  Is this consistent with your experience and knowledge about what

Page 18626

 1     the position of the ministry was?

 2        A.   At this time, I was on the first location.  Not only were these

 3     municipalities, or, rather, public security stations indicated here

 4     involved in this, but, rather, the public security centre in Sarajevo,

 5     based on this letter, issued circulars informing check-points at certain

 6     locations.  When I arrived at the location that I mentioned, I set up

 7     four or five check-points with a view to implementing this order, i.e.,

 8     preventing the commission of crimes, including serious crimes, and

 9     ensuring unhindered movement of the local population.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Were the stolen movable properties confiscated and

11     stored in facilities?  In any specific facilities?

12        A.   In the police station where I worked, there was repository for

13     such confiscated assets, in keeping with the relevant documents of the

14     Ministry of the Interior.  It was only the chief of the centre who could

15     issue an authorisation to take any of the confiscated items out of the

16     repository.

17        Q.   Somewhere in the sixth line from the bottom, it is stated that

18     the property should be given back to the rightful owners if they are

19     known, and/or the properties should be kept in the repository until these

20     proceedings come to an end.

21        A.   Since the competent service did produce this, I guess this was

22     the way things worked.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted, please.

24             JUDGE KWON:  We will mark it for identification.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D1671, Your Honours.

Page 18627

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I kindly ask for assistance from

 2     the OTP, because I have a similar problem with the document from the

 3     batch 18346 bearing the ERN 0324-6103, so the ERN is 0324-6103.  Has it

 4     been admitted as well?  Perhaps we should place it on the ELMO so that it

 5     can be more easily identified.  I do apologise, Excellencies.  I received

 6     it as part of the same batch and it was a collective number, i.e., 18346

 7     which covered several documents.

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  The document that Dr. Karadzic has asked for to be

 9     put on the ELMO now, I don't know what 65 ter it had in the Defence list,

10     but I'm told it's been admitted as D1525.  Oh, and MFIed pending

11     translation.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have D1525 for a brief

13     moment, please?

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   May I ask you, Mr. Witness, to look at an order issued by

16     Mr. Mandic at the time he was in the ministry.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  To have the record completely clear, this was not

18     part of the notified list.

19             THE ACCUSED:  [Interpretation] If we look at the ERN numbers,

20     they are all in sequence, and that's the batch that we received.  But

21     very well.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Please have a look at this.  At the time, Mr. Mandic was still in

24     the Ministry of the Interior.  This order was issued three days after

25     Stanisic's order, and it bears similar contents.  Can you tell us what

Page 18628

 1     this is about?  Does it not say that there is an escalation of terrorism,

 2     violence and robberies in the territory under the control of our police,

 3     and that it is necessary to organise patrols in that area made up of the

 4     police force and reserve police force?  That's under 1; is that right?

 5        A.   Yes.  I saw this order in the Ministry of the Interior at a much

 6     later date.  I was not there at the time.

 7        Q.   Does it not indicate assets that are found on an individual who

 8     cannot testify or certify to their provenance should be seized from them

 9     and stored in the police station?

10        A.   Yes.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If this is a document that was

12     MFIed, can it now be admitted?  We do have the translation.

13             JUDGE KWON:  That will be done.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Do you agree, witness, that it's quite common among our people to

16     blacken people generally, he's doing this, he's doing that, and that it's

17     very hard to find one's way around these rumours?  Is this something that

18     happens in our neck of the woods?

19        A.   Yes.  I think -- yes, that does happen but it's not just specific

20     to our region.  It's a common thing for all people.

21        Q.   And do you recall that there was some allegations that Stanisic,

22     that Mandic, that Kovac, that they were doing something that was

23     irregular in terms of property or any other way?  Did you hear such

24     rumours?

25        A.   I did hear several times from policemen, from operatives, from

Page 18629

 1     people who had contacts with them.  I heard that.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at 1D4195, please?  I'm

 3     afraid that this translation is not there yet.  So it's 1D4195.

 4        Q.   Do you know that I formed a state commission to investigate this

 5     matter and that I appointed Vice-President Professor Nikola Koljevic to

 6     head that committee who was prone to believing that the rumours were

 7     true?

 8        A.   Yes, I read the document at the Ministry of the Interior in

 9     Bijeljina.

10        Q.   Thank you.  And can I ask you to read it for the transcript while

11     we are waiting for the translation.  Or you can just tell us -- actually,

12     can you just briefly read this document.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes it's clear to me.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

16             Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  He doesn't need to read it aloud to us.  If he is

18     reading it to himself, that's fine, but I'm waiting for the question.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   And is it evidence that Mr. Koljevic here informs that

22     I appointed him and that he's asking all the data about the activities of

23     Mandic, Stanisic and Kovac?

24        A.   Yes.  And that's what we did at the MUP.

25        Q.   Thank you.  And do you recall that it was his conclusion that

Page 18630

 1     there is no proof of any irregular activities?

 2        A.   Yes.  I do recall the conclusions and the comments.

 3        Q.   So not just financial but any other matters.  Well do you know

 4     that these three people had quite tense relations with President Plavsic

 5     and Koljevic and then with Prime Minister Djeric, but they did their work

 6     honestly and they established that there was no proof that these rumours

 7     were correct and they excused these people?

 8        A.   Well, I know that they had tense relations with the

 9     prime minister, Mr. Djeric.  That's the only thing that I know about.

10        Q.   Very well.  Let me ask you this:  Being familiar with our

11     political system --

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, could I tender

13     this document, please?

14             JUDGE KWON:  Today, I note you are extensively using untranslated

15     documents.  Please bear in mind the Chamber's warning.  We will mark it

16     for identification.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  MFI D1672, Your Honours.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   I would like to ask you, witness, sir, since you are familiar

21     with our political and constitutional system, whether the president of

22     the republic has any investigating body other than the regular police

23     force.

24        A.   I know that in practice there should be a body that monitors the

25     work, but at this time period that we are discussing, I'm not aware that

Page 18631

 1     there was any such commission.

 2        Q.   Do we agree that the commission for the oversight of the work of

 3     state organs is part of the assembly body, and they are in charge of

 4     overseeing the work of the army, the police, and so on?

 5        A.   Yes, I can agree with that.

 6        Q.   And do you agree that the president himself cannot do anything

 7     else but form some kind of inquiry or commission and that the

 8     investigation is in the hands of the MUP and the justice system and not

 9     in the hands of the president?

10        A.   Well, as far as I'm familiar with the matters, it's in the hands

11     of the MUP and the justice system organs.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we call up D449 for a moment,

14     please?  We have a Serbian version as well.  Could we have that on the

15     other half of the screen, please?

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Do you agree that this is from the 29th of November?  It says

18     2002 up there -- no, no, we will see when the date is.  It's on the other

19     side.  Is this a letter to the Prime Minister Djeric from the Ministry of

20     the Interior?  That this is what it states in the heading?

21        A.   Yes, it is addressed to Mr. Djeric.

22        Q.   And then on the first page it talks about which crimes need to be

23     investigated.  Can we have the second page, please?  And can I ask you,

24     I'm going to read this underlined part:

25             [As read] "We are working on the collection and documentation of

Page 18632

 1     war crimes, i.e., genocide, regardless of the perpetrators and their

 2     ethnicity."

 3             Witness, sir, your station, did it also take part in

 4     investigations of all crimes regardless of ethnicity and was anything

 5     ever covered up?

 6        A.   No.  Not the police station, but the operative service of the

 7     police station, yes.

 8        Q.   They carried out investigations regardless of the ethnicity of

 9     the perpetrator; is that correct?

10        A.   Yes, that's how it was, pursuant to the orders that we have seen

11     here.

12        Q.   And would you agree with me that when a criminal report is

13     submitted and sent to the organs of the judicial system it's not possible

14     to cover anything up any more, because it's then part of the regular

15     procedure and that any point it would have to be resolved whenever the

16     circumstances allow?

17             MS. EDGERTON:  I think that's getting a little bit too far beyond

18     the witness's field of knowledge, Your Honour.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that the witness knows

20     what a criminal report is, and when a criminal report is made, does that

21     not, in a way, ensure that there is no cover-up?

22             JUDGE KWON:  Well, let us see whether the witness would be able

23     to answer the question.  Do you remember the question, Mr. Witness?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.  When a criminal

25     report is submitted to the authorised body, that is, the Ministry of

Page 18633

 1     Justice, the public security station centres and the ministry have a

 2     file.  It's a so-called KU registry which records all the papers

 3     submitted to the authorised bodies.  In regular proceedings, there is no

 4     possibility of any cover-up, except in the case of somebody abusing their

 5     post or position, and then deleting from the register and then write down

 6     instead some other indicia or number of a criminal report.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13        Q.   We will come to these duties of yours.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now perhaps -- well, perhaps

15     we can go to private session briefly.  1D4194, please.  And I apologise

16     in advance for the tardiness of the translation and I completely accept

17     the criticism of the Chamber.

18             JUDGE KWON:  And be cautious when -- we go to private session.

19                           [Private session]

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 18634











11  Pages 18634-18635 redacted. Private session.















Page 18636

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11                           [Open session]

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic, we are in open session.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Witness, there was a question here about the commission or,

15     actually, the documentation centre for the documenting of crimes against

16     the Serbian people.  Let's clarify something here.  Were the powers for

17     carrying out investigations of crimes committed on our territory

18     something that remained under our police and judicial institutions?  In

19     our territory was this done by this documentation centre or was this

20     something that was done by the police?

21        A.   At the seat of the Ministry of the Interior of Republika Srpska,

22     a body was formed or a commission, we could say, which dealt with the

23     operative service of the criminal police which dealt with shedding light

24     on the crimes committed in war -- on war crimes.

25        Q.   Thank you, and as it says in this document, this was done

Page 18637

 1     regardless of the religious or ethnic background of the perpetrators; is

 2     that right?

 3        A.   Yes.  I have a comment there.  To be honest and professional,

 4     there weren't that many representatives of other ethnic or religious

 5     groups.  It mostly focused on crimes against Serbs and this register also

 6     shows that.

 7        Q.   Do you know that something existed which was outside of the

 8     police, outside of the MUP?  It was the centre for documenting crimes

 9     against the Serbian people, headed by a writer Miroslav Toholj.  There

10     was no criminologist, lawyer or judge who was part of that body.  It was

11     an author, a writer, who documented things that the escaping Serbs

12     brought back from the federation.

13        A.   Yes.  I'm aware of that.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have P1096, please, in

15     e-court.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Do you agree that one ought to distinguish between the centre for

18     documentations and investigating bodies?

19        A.   Yes.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The transcript reads:  [In English]

21     There were not many [Interpretation] The witness said there were somewhat

22     fewer of those.  There were fewer investigations.

23             Can we now have --

24             JUDGE KWON:  We will continue next week.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

Page 18638

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Witness, we will rise soon for today and

 2     continue next week.  I'm sorry not to be able to conclude your evidence

 3     this week, but that happens in the course of trial.

 4             Before we rise, I will give a ruling, oral ruling, with respect

 5     to the accused's 58th motion for finding of disclosure violation and for

 6     sanctions.

 7             Witness KDZ-052 which was filed on 6 September 2011.

 8             The Chamber has considered the arguments of the accused and the

 9     Prosecution's written response and finds that Prosecution violated its

10     obligation under Rule 66(A)(ii) by only disclosing the transcript of the

11     testimony of KDZ-052 on 5th of September, 2011, even though the testimony

12     in question was given in October 2010.

13             Having reviewed the 19 pages of testimony and considering the

14     submission of the parties, the Chamber finds that the accused will have

15     sufficient time to consider this newly disclosed document and incorporate

16     it, if necessary, into his cross-examination of KDZ-052.

17             Given the length and content of the new material, the Chamber is

18     not convinced that the accused has been prejudiced by this late

19     disclosure, but observes that it once again reflects poorly on the

20     Prosecution's disclosure practices that such a statement was not

21     disclosed sooner.

22             In these circumstances, the requested exclusion of KDZ-052's

23     testimony is denied.

24             Mr. Witness, we will continue on Tuesday morning at 9.00.  While

25     we are adjourning, you are not supposed to discuss about your evidence

Page 18639

 1     with anybody else.  Do you understand that, sir?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

 4             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President, before we rise, if

 5     I could just call to your attention, we received during the course of the

 6     day the estimate for the cross-examination of the next witness,

 7     Mirzet Karabeg, which was three hours.  I hope it was a typographical

 8     error -- and it was really eight hours because I just note that he

 9     testified in his direct examination for 7 and a half hours during the

10     Brdjanin case, all of which is being incorporated into his 92 ter

11     transcript.  So I was hoping maybe the Chamber could revisit that if, in

12     fact, we were only allowed three hours because it makes it very difficult

13     when we have less than what the Prosecution has.

14             JUDGE KWON:  What was tendered is a transcript.

15             MR. ROBINSON:  That's correct.  It's a transcript from the

16     Brdjanin case.

17             JUDGE KWON:  And he was cross-examined there.

18             MR. ROBINSON:  He was cross-examined, but basically on the

19     individual responsibility of those accused primarily.  But he was

20     examined in chief for 7 and a half hours approximately, cross-examined

21     for about five and a half hours, and we feel that the allocation of three

22     hours -- that Dr. Karadzic is way below what he would need, and if the

23     witness had testified live, he would be testifying for 7 and a half hours

24     to give that same information.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We will consider the matter.  And as we

Page 18640

 1     close, the Chamber wishes to express its congratulations on

 2     Mr. Sladojevic's having tied the knot.  And everybody have a nice

 3     weekend.

 4             JUDGE BAIRD:  May I add, Mr. Sladojevic, that I wish you a happy

 5     and holy wedlock and pure and unadulterated marital bliss.

 6                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.00 p.m.,

 7                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 13th day of

 8                           September, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.