1 Thursday, 15 September 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 1.32 p.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Good afternoon, everyone.
7 If the witness could take the solemn declaration, please.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
9 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
10 WITNESS: KDZ-379
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. If you could make yourself comfortable.
13 Sir, before you begin your testimony, I would like to inform you on
14 behalf of the Chamber that you will be testifying today with the benefit
15 of pseudonym and image distortion. This means that there will be no
16 reference to your real name or information that might reveal your
17 identity to the public or media. The audiovisual record of your
18 testimony which is broadcast to the public will have a distorted image,
19 which can be seen right now in front of your monitor. Why don't you show
20 the image of the witness to the witness.
21 Yes. To ensure that your identity is protected and the
22 transcript, while available to the public, we'll always refer to your
23 pseudonym which is KDZ-379.
24 Yes, Mr. Gaynor.
25 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Mr. President.
1 Examination by Mr. Gaynor:
2 Q. Good afternoon, witness.
3 A. Good afternoon.
4 MR. GAYNOR: Could I please have 65 ter 90276.
5 Q. Witness, on the screen in front of you, could you confirm that
6 you see your name.
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. GAYNOR: I'd like to tender that pseudonym sheet under seal,
9 Mr. President.
10 JUDGE KWON: That will be admitted.
11 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P3331, under seal, Your Honours.
12 MR. GAYNOR:
13 Q. Mr. Witness, is it correct that you testified before this
14 Tribunal in the trial of Milorad Krnojelac?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Have you recently had an opportunity to listen to an audio
17 recording of your testimony in that trial?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do you adopt that testimony as your evidence in this trial, and
20 would you provide the same evidence to the Court if questioned on the
21 same matters here today?
22 A. Yes.
23 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honour, I would like to tender the transcript
24 of the witness's testimony which is 65 ter 22162, for admission as a
25 public exhibit.
1 JUDGE KWON: That will be admitted as Exhibit 3332.
2 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Mr. President. I now propose to read a
3 brief summary for the public of the evidence in that transcript.
4 In April 1992, at a JNA fuel warehouse in Filipovici, Foca
5 municipality, the witness and others gave refuge to Muslim civilians who
6 came there from their villages and from the town of Foca to seek
7 protection. They said that an attack had taken place on villages around
8 Foca as well as in Foca town, and people had been expelled.
9 On 26 April 1992, several days after the witness had received a
10 warning from an SDS representative, Pero Mihajlovic, not to offer
11 protection to any more refugees, the fuel depot was attacked and taken
12 over by around 20 armed members of a Serb military formation known as the
13 White Eagles, accompanied by an armoured vehicle. The refugees were
14 placed on a bus and the witness was arrested and taken to
15 Velecevo women's prison. He was shown to a room in which a number of
16 Serb men were having a meeting, including Velibor Ostojic. There were
17 large topographic maps on a table in front of them marked in red and
18 blue, and a large map of Foca on the wall. Ostojic asked the witness if
19 he had joined the balijas and the Ustasha. The witness was then detained
20 at KP Dom in Foca where he saw the bus which had taken the refugees from
21 the warehouse at Filipovici. He testified about the detention of
22 non-Serb women and children at KP Dom.
23 During his detention at KP Dom, the witness was repeatedly
24 returned to Velecevo women's prison for interrogation. That concludes
25 the summary.
1 I'd now like to call up 65 ter 07473, if we can look at the first
2 page in English and B/C/S.
3 Q. Mr. Witness, as we will see in a moment we will see the first
4 page of an issue of the Official Gazette of the Serbian Municipality of
5 Foca. This issue, as we can see, is dated the 17th of September, 1992.
6 Now, I'd like us to turn to page 8 in B/C/S and page 39 in English. If
7 we could enlarge the top half of the page in B/C/S, please. Mr. Witness,
8 can you see there a record of a decision of the Assembly of the
9 Serbian Municipality of Foca taken on the 3rd of April, 1992, to
10 establish the Crisis Staff of the Serbian Municipality of Foca? Can you
11 see that?
12 A. I see it.
13 MR. GAYNOR: Can I ask the Registrar to focus on the list of
14 names numbered 1 to 15, on the right-hand side of the B/C/S version.
15 Q. In that list of names in front of you, Mr. Witness, could you
16 identify by name and number which of those persons you saw at Velecevo on
17 the 26th of April, 1992?
18 A. Under number 1, then number 5, number 4, and number 13.
19 Q. For the record, number 1 is Miroslav Stanic, number 4 is
20 Vojislav Maksimovic, number 5 is Petko Cancar, number 13 is
21 Radovan Mandic. Simply to clarify the record, Mr. Witness, in your
22 statement of the 23rd of December, 1995 - no need to bring it up for the
23 moment - you referred to a man called Rajko Mandic, who you saw at
24 Velecevo women's prison. Could you confirm whether Rajko Mandic is the
25 same person as Radovan Mandic?
1 A. This doctor was short, but I heard the name, and they referred to
2 him as doctor. But there was another doctor, Crni, but I don't know his
3 proper name and I don't know who the man was.
4 Q. But you're quite sure that Radovan Mandic was at Velecevo women's
5 prison on the 26th of April 1992?
6 A. I think he was.
7 MR. GAYNOR: I'd like to tender that edition of the
8 Official Gazette of the Serbian Municipality of Foca, Mr. President.
9 JUDGE KWON: That is admitted.
10 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P3333, Your Honours.
11 MR. GAYNOR: I'd like now to play a video, and this is
12 65 ter 40199. It was formerly recorded under the number 45314. I'll
13 play a number of clips from this video. If we could start, please, at 4
14 minutes and 27 seconds. I'd like to direct the interpreters to page 1 of
15 the transcript in English and B/C/S.
16 [Video-clip played]
17 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Host: It is three years from the
18 liberation of Srbinje. The guest in our studio is Miroslav Stanic,
19 member of the Main Board of the Serbian Democratic Party of all Serbian
20 states, member of the Municipal Board of Srbinje and the first commander.
22 MR. GAYNOR: Stop there, please. We stopped at 4 minutes and
23 52 seconds.
24 Q. First of all, witness, the presenter there referred to Srbinje.
25 What was Srbinje formerly known as?
1 A. Foca.
2 Q. What do you understand the term "Srbinje" to denote?
3 A. Well, mostly during the war and after the war, names were
4 changed. All the places that came to belong to the Serbian Republic were
5 changed and they were given other names, with the prefix Serbian,
6 Srpski Brod, Srbinje, and so on. Now, they -- the reason was probably
7 that the Serbs remained in Foca, so that's why they had the place names
8 changed to reflect that.
9 Q. The second clip will start at 9 minutes and 45. For the benefit
10 of the interpreters, this is at the top half of page 3 in English and in
11 B/C/S. If we could play it, please.
12 [Video-clip played]
13 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Host: You were the first war
14 commander in the area of Srbinje. Can you give our viewers your account
15 of the beginning of the armed conflict and the three war years?
16 "Stanic: I cannot talk about the whole period. I shall talk
17 only about the part when I was the commander on behalf of the SDS which
18 enabled me to become the first war commander because I was there at the
19 time. However, I must say, before we continue, our response to their
20 bacchanal in the Drina valley which was inevitable, at least a verbal
21 response, was the magnificent founding assembly of the SDS in September
22 1990 followed by a yet more magnificent Trojcindan Sabor, or convention,
23 when we said that the Drina would never become a border but a windpipe
24 between two lungs."
25 MR. GAYNOR: Stop there please. It's stopped at 10 minutes and
1 40 seconds.
2 Q. First of all, Mr. Witness, in that extract Stanic said:
3 "I was the commander on behalf of the SDS, which enabled me to
4 become the first war commander."
5 Now, is that statement consistent with your understanding of his
6 role in Foca in April 1992?
7 A. His duty was the main person, the number 1 man, and I received
8 the information from my colleague who was a prominent public figure and
9 he told me that he was the commander.
10 Q. Stanic refers to the Drina, and he refers to a statement made at
11 a convention where it was said, "The Drina would never become a border
12 but a windpipe between two lungs." Could you assist us with what you
13 understand that expression to mean?
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I ask that -- I have to
15 intervene with the translation. He didn't say "granica," a border, he
16 said "medja." There is a slight difference in the terminology
17 dividing -- for example, "medja" is used to divide two fields, the
18 boundary line or dividing line, and I'd like the witness to confirm that.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
20 MR. GAYNOR:
21 Q. Now, witness, could you, in any event, explain your understanding
22 of the words used by Stanic and his reference to the windpipe between two
24 A. Well, one part of the lungs was Serbia, the Republic of Serbia,
25 and the other lung; the other part of the lungs, was Drina, which was to
1 become joined with the Serbian Republic; and on the other side, the other
2 lung would be the people from the Serbian Republic, which meant that they
3 would breathe with the same breathing system, the Serbs on the one side
4 and the Serbs on the other side. They would breathe together.
5 MR. GAYNOR: I'd now like to move to 15 minutes and 47 seconds.
6 For the benefit of the interpreters this is in the middle of page 4 in
7 English and the lower portion of page 4 in B/C/S.
8 [Video-clip played]
9 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Host: ... knew what the enemy were
10 up to.
11 "Stanic: Of course. What else could I have ordered because
12 experience taught us that if we choose the first option, we would suffer
13 the same fate as Gorazde. That was the beginning of our outstanding
14 victories. We liberated the town in six days. By the 25th of April, we
15 managed to liberate the whole of the Foca municipality, the largest
16 municipality in Republika Srpska. I submitted my war report to the
17 ministerial council, as it was then called at that time, at the beginning
18 of June. We were active in the Crisis Staff, crisis committee, and later
19 in the army command. I turned over the command to 11 officers headed by
20 Colonel Marko Kovac. Our organisation changed names, it was called
21 Tactical Group Drina, and then the garrison. It changed names several
22 times, but the structure of the battalion remained the same until a year
23 ago. It was very efficient, as everyone knows, in the whole of
24 Republika Srpska territory."
25 MR. GAYNOR: Stopped at 17 minutes, 24 seconds.
1 Q. In that extract, Mr. Witness, Mr. Stanic referred to the
2 liberation of the town and the liberation of the municipality of Foca in
3 April 1992. On the basis of what you observed, what did the liberation
4 of Foca municipality involve?
5 A. Well, it stretched right to Filipovici, Ustikolina, Jabuka up at
6 the top, and those villages there which belonged to the
7 Municipal Assembly of Foca at that time. They weren't taken control of.
8 It was only on the 26th or 27th when that happened. Up until the 25th,
9 all the rest of Foca municipality had been taken.
10 Q. Thank you. And where he talks about -- where he says "We managed
11 to liberate the whole of Foca municipality," what did you understand the
12 liberation process to involve?
13 A. It included the expulsion of the Muslim population from that
14 region, expulsion, killings and incarceration. So it was liberated from
15 the Muslim population of the Municipal Assembly of Foca.
16 Q. Did you say, "The Muslim population of the Municipal Assembly of
18 A. Yes, yes. The Muslim population living in the Municipal Assembly
19 of Foca.
20 Q. Now, Mr. Witness, earlier you identified for the Trial Chamber
21 several members of the Crisis Staff who you saw at Velecevo on the
22 26th of April, 1992. In the interview, Mr. Stanic has referred to the
23 Crisis Staff and to the army command in the takeover of Foca. Could you
24 comment as to what Stanic's words were and whether they were consistent
25 with what you observed in Foca in late April 1992?
1 A. At that period, the Crisis Staff was the body which assigned war
2 assignments. Since -- well, it issued orders and tasks to some units,
3 whether it was the infantry or some other units that existed. So the
4 Crisis Staff was the body that issued commands to take certain territory,
5 places and positions.
6 Q. I'd like to move now to 18 minutes and 50 seconds. This is the
7 middle of page 5 in the B/C/S transcript and the top of page 5 in the
8 English. To play from 18 minutes and 50 seconds to 19 minutes and
9 33 seconds.
10 [Video-clip played]
11 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Stanic: However, I would like to
12 say something about the surroundings of our command, but as far as the
13 Serb sentiments are concerned ..."
14 MR. GAYNOR:
15 Q. For the record, witness, could I ask you to read out the words on
16 the screen in front of you?
17 A. Miroslav Stanic, member of the Main Board of the
18 Serbian Democratic Party, president of the municipal board of Srbinje and
19 the first war commander. So he was a member of the Main Board of the
20 SDS, that's number 1. Then he was president of the municipal board of
21 Srbinje, number 2. And the first war commander, under 3.
22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Witness. That was at 19 minutes and two seconds.
23 MR. GAYNOR: Can we play on, please.
24 [Video-clip played]
25 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Stanic: I can't say who is a
1 bigger Serb or a better Serb. However, regarding their revolutionary
2 fighting spirit, if certain individuals have been in the command at the
3 beginning of the conflict, we would certainly not be sitting here in free
4 Foca, and we would probably have a constant headache from the muezzins'
5 singing from the tops of the minarets and songs such as 'Vino piju age
6 Sarajlije,' a traditional Muslim song."
7 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you. We stopped at 19 minutes and 35 seconds.
8 Q. And there we see Mr. Stanic referring to if other Serbs had been
9 in charge, that one might experience in Foca a constant headache from the
10 muezzin singing from the tops of the minarets, what happened to the
11 minarets in Foca municipality after the Serb takeover?
12 A. They were shelled, the minarets were shelled so that most of the
13 mosques were destroyed or had their minarets destroyed. And I was told
14 that by the refugees who came to the warehouse.
15 Q. Is Mr. Stanic's comment consistent with the conduct of the Serb
16 authorities towards the Muslim population in Foca in April 1992?
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. GAYNOR: Could we move now to another clip. This is at
19 47 minutes and 38 seconds, and this is a speech given by Mr. Stanic to
20 the public, so we will play the introduction to the speech to understand
21 the context in which it was given and then we'll play part of
22 Mr. Stanic's speech. Start now from 47 minutes and 38 seconds. This is
23 on the last page of the transcript, for the benefit of the interpreters.
24 [Video-clip played]
25 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "The Reporter: The atmosphere today
1 in Srbinje was magnificent. With the participation of several thousands
2 of citizens of Srbinje neighbouring municipalities, a meeting of support
3 was organised for Dr. Radovan Karadzic, President of Republika Srpska,
4 and General Ratko Mladic, Chief of the Main Staff of the Republika Srpska
5 army. The name of the meeting was: 'We won't give you our Nemanjics
6 without bloodshed,' a verse from Serbian epic, and it was aimed against
7 the provisions of The Hague Tribunal which had charged them for alleged
8 war crimes. The meeting was organised by the municipal board of the
9 Serbian Democratic Party. Besides the representatives of
10 Srbinje municipality, the following prominent people attended the
11 meeting: Zoran Vujanovic, vice-president of the Serbian Democratic Party
12 of Republike Srpska; Bozidar Vucurevic, mayor of Trebinje municipality;
13 Mirko Mijatovic, deputy of the People's Assembly of Republika Srpska;
14 Dr. Dusko Kornjaca, mayor of Cajnice municipality; and Drago Pejovic,
15 deputy in People's Assembly from Cajnice and others. Miroslav Stanic,
16 president of the Municipal Board of the SDS in Srbinje was the first to
17 greet the participants of the meeting, the citizens of Srbinje and
18 neighbouring municipalities.
19 "Stanic: Dear brothers and sisters, dear guests, I would like to
20 greet you all with a sincere wish that there be no more war, but with
21 firm resolution to be the creators of our happiness and our own future.
22 The younger generations do not remember, but those of us relatively older
23 or very old know full well that we organise meeting of support for
24 Patrice Lumumba, Che Guevara, the Karinthian Slovenes, the
25 Czechoslovakians, the Khmer Rouge and many others whose names are almost
1 unpronounceable. So why not support ourselves today? We want to choose
2 our own leaders. We, the Serbs on the west bank of the Drina River, know
3 full well that our leaders are Dr. Radovan Karadzic and
4 General Ratko Mladic."
5 MR. GAYNOR: Stop there, please. We've stopped at 49 minutes and
6 40 seconds.
7 Q. You heard there Mr. Stanic describe the leaders on the west bank
8 of the Drina River as Dr. Radovan Karadzic and General Ratko Mladic.
9 Could you tell the Trial Chamber who, on the basis of your observations,
10 you understood the Serbs of Foca considered their leaders to be in April
12 A. The Serbs considered as their leader Radovan Karadzic. They saw
13 him as -- or rather, the man number 2 was Ratko Mladic, and that could be
14 seen in various gatherings, rallies. And even before Foca was taken, a
15 colleague of mine who was near another warehouse, he would go on a daily
16 basis to the Municipal Assembly, where there was Miroslav Stanic, and he
17 would get information there which he later conveyed to me. He would
18 describe the situation to me exactly as it was developing. He would tell
19 me what would happen, when, who was their ideological leader, and so on.
20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Witness.
21 MR. GAYNOR: I've no further questions for this witness. There
22 are no associated exhibits to be tendered. I would like to tender the
23 video in evidence.
24 JUDGE KWON: Did you give us the indication as to the time frame
25 of this video, the first interview and this speech?
1 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, from what we have been able to determine, the
2 introduction to the first interview is described as the third anniversary
3 of the Serb takeover of Srbinje, so we would date that as approximately
4 April 1995. The second video, the speech of Mr. Stanic to the crowd, has
5 taken place after the indictment of Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic,
6 which would place it, at the very earliest, in late July 1995, and I
7 don't have any more specific information as to the date of the speech by
9 JUDGE KWON: And you are tendering these video-clips in one go,
10 in one exhibit?
11 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, we can do that. If Your Honours wish to assess
12 the video-clips in the context of the entire video, perhaps Your Honours
13 might wish to admit the entire video. I leave it --
14 JUDGE KWON: We will admit only those parts shown to the Chamber.
15 Mr. Robinson.
16 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President, we object to the portions of
17 the video other than that of the speech because we believe that this is
18 an after-the-fact statement of the third party which you have
19 consistently not admitted. So even though it's oral as opposed to
20 written, this is a 1995 interview, three years after the events, and we
21 believe that it's the same as if it were a written statement taken in
22 1995 from Mr. Stanic. So it's our position that those -- while the
23 witness's answers and the -- it's a third party statement being shown to
24 a witness. He can comment on it, but we don't believe that under your
25 rules it's admissible. Thank you.
1 JUDGE KWON: When we referred to a third party statement, we
2 usually referred to a news clipping or a newspaper article, interview or
3 the statements taken for the purpose of criminal investigation,
4 et cetera. Do you see any difference taken spontaneously or
5 contemporaneously? Take your time.
6 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, there is a difference. There is a
7 difference. Had this been taken in 1992, then we wouldn't be objecting,
8 but it was a contemporaneous -- it was three years after the events. It
9 was reflecting back. The only difference was it was a newscaster instead
10 of some other -- a police officer or investigator from the OTP who was
11 asking someone for their recollection of events which had occurred in the
13 MR. GAYNOR: Mr. President, I've prepared some submissions on the
14 matter if you would care to hear them now.
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
16 MR. GAYNOR: Well, first of all, Mr. Robinson is drawing an
17 equivalence between a statement prepared for the purposes of an
18 investigation or for the purpose of testimony prior to a trial, but if
19 you -- the jurisprudence of the Tribunal is consistent that Rule 92 bis
20 and Rule 92 ter and 92 quater are concerned solely with the admission of
21 statements prepared for a criminal investigation or for criminal
22 proceedings. And the principal decision in which the purpose of Rule
23 92 bis is considered is the decision on interlocutory appeal concerning
24 Rule 92 bis(c) of the 7th of June, 2002, by the Appeals Chamber in the
25 Galic trial, and paragraphs 28 to 31 make it absolutely clear that Rule
1 92 bis was intended to cover documents made in relation to pending or
2 anticipated legal proceedings. Now, Rule 92 ter which was enacted after
3 Rule 92 bis falls into the same category. Your Honours have provided
4 guidelines to the parties in this case. I'm referring to the additional
5 guidelines which were handed down on the 19th of May, 2010, the decision
6 on guidelines for the admission of evidence through witnesses. At
7 paragraph 25 of that order, Your Honours have set down the additional
8 guidelines. Guideline 25(e) concerns the circumstances in which a party
9 may confront a witness with the witness statement or the transcript of
10 prior testimony of another witness from another case before the Tribunal,
11 so 25(E) is concerned exclusively with proceedings before this Tribunal.
12 Of course, those are general guidelines and Your Honours have also taken
13 a consistent position that documents taken by, for example, RS MUP
14 authorities during the war are documents prepared in the course of a
15 criminal investigation and therefore fall within the general prohibition
16 on using a witness to get around the lex specialis of Rule 92 bis, 92 ter
17 or 92 quater.
18 Your Honours' additional guidelines do set out the general rule
19 which is that a party should tender a piece of evidence through a witness
20 who is either the author of that piece or who can speak to its origins
21 and/or content. The tendering party shall demonstrate some nexus between
22 the witness and the document before offering the document into evidence.
23 You've also ruled that there will be no blanket prohibition on the
24 admission of evidence simply on the grounds that the purported author of
25 the evidence has not been called to testify.
1 Now, in this case, there is clearly no prohibition the admission
2 of this evidence simply because the TV interviewer or Mr. Stanic have not
3 been called to testify. The question is whether we have demonstrated,
4 first, that it is relevant and probative. In my submission, it's
5 relevant because it concerns the circumstances of the takeover of Foca in
6 April 1992. It's probative because it advances the Prosecution's case
7 that the takeover was co-ordinated, among others, by the Crisis Staff and
8 the military, and that it advances the Prosecution's case that the
9 purpose of the takeover was to rid Foca of its non-Serb population.
10 Furthermore, the witness was present in Foca at the relevant period. He
11 observed members of the Crisis Staff of Foca attend a meeting on the
12 evening of the 26th of April, 1992, at Velecevo and the -- that evidence
13 corroborates what Stanic said about the takeover of Foca being more or
14 less complete by the 25th of April, 1992. What Stanic says about the
15 co-ordination between the army and the Crisis Staff in the takeover, and
16 also what Stanic says in relation to, you know, ridding Foca of the
17 annoying sound of the muezzin singing from the minaret. So in my
18 submission, the witness is clearly in the right place, and with his
19 career background, he's qualified to comment on military matters, and we
20 have demonstrated a sufficient basis --
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection. He's reading into it.
22 This was not uttered. If Mr. Gaynor is testifying, then it's another
23 matter but that's not what we heard from the witness.
24 MR. GAYNOR: Mr. President, I haven't --
25 JUDGE KWON: Don't intervene while the other party is making its
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And when am I going to
3 cross-examine Mr. Gaynor?
4 JUDGE KWON: No. He's not giving his evidence. Yes, please
6 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Mr. President. In short, the relevant
7 rule governing the admission of this evidence is Rule 99(c). The
8 question is: Is it relevant? Is it probative? And has the Prosecution
9 demonstrated some nexus between the witness and the evidence before
10 offering it into evidence? And in my submission, the answer to those
11 three questions is yes. For that reason, it should be admitted.
12 Thank you, Mr. President.
13 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President, maybe Mr. --
14 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
16 MR. ROBINSON: Maybe Mr. Tieger can back me up on this, but it's
17 my recollection that we've already dealt with this identical issue in
18 another instance where video interview after the fact was taken, and I
19 believe that you ruled that that was not admissible, that that was a
20 statement of a third party. I don't know if Mr. Tieger recalls that.
21 MR. TIEGER: Actually do I recall that, Mr. President, because if
22 we are thinking about the same instance, because I believe at that time I
23 had raised a concern that this matter was belatedly raised, and had asked
24 for such matters, such objections, to be raised previously or as early as
25 possible so we could research the matter more fully, and Mr. Robinson
1 raised the same objection. Thereafter, I had the opportunity to go back
2 and see the history behind this objection and discovered that in May of
3 2010, a similar issue had arisen, that is a videotaped interview that was
4 proffered by the Defence and argued by Mr. Robinson that the witness had
5 provided a sufficient nexus to the comments on the interview, that it had
6 confirmed his basic knowledge of the person who was giving the interview
7 and had purported to affirm some of the underlying statements and that
8 document was admitted at Mr. Robinson's instance.
9 So it's true that this was raised before. I had raised concerns
10 about the fact that we didn't have an opportunity to fully look at the
11 back drop to it, and when I did, I found that the opposite was true, that
12 the Defence had taken the contrary position previously when it was a
13 matter -- when it was a document they wanted in. I don't think there is
14 any question but that the factors outlined by Mr. Gaynor are accurate.
15 We -- his position is completely correct with respect to the proffer
17 I would also note that this is the kind of document that would be
18 appropriate, in my submission, for bar table submission by virtue of the
19 fact that we have an executor of SDS policies talking about the reason
20 why those policies were implemented. It's hard to imagine, in fact, more
21 relevant and probative information on its face for the Trial Chamber to
22 consider. So for many reasons, we would assert this document is fully
23 admissible, not the least of which is that that's the position taken by
24 the Defence when this issue was first broached and now that it's a
25 document they don't want in, they have taken a contrary position.
1 JUDGE KWON: Just for food for thought, Mr. Gaynor, do you see a
2 difference between the situation in which the witness confirmed the
3 content of the interview and in the case in which the witness did not?
4 MR. GAYNOR: In my submission, I believe in both cases, the words
5 of Stanic would be admissible. The reason being this: If we had asked a
6 witness, not necessarily this witness, Did you see Mr. Stanic on
7 television, he said, Yes, and we said, What did he say? And the witness
8 then recounted to the best of his memory what the witness had said, that
9 hearsay evidence would be admissible under the Rules of this Tribunal.
10 Now, what we have here is the original recording of Stanic's words, so
11 Your Honours have an opportunity to observe Stanic himself, listen to
12 every single word that he said in the original, which is a far more
13 reliable version of what he said, than simply asking a witness what he
14 had said. For those reasons I believe that whether the witness agrees
15 with what Stanic said is accurate or whether he takes the view that it is
16 inaccurate, it is admissible in both instances.
17 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
18 MR. TIEGER: And, Mr. President, if I could add to that slightly.
19 It may depend on the position of the declarant. So if the declarant, as
20 in this case, is an SDS official outlining the policy of the party as it
21 was pursued, that has its own independent value, that doesn't require,
22 I would say, a witness to affirm his own independent observations of the
23 reflections of that policy on the ground in contrast to another witness
24 who is not so positioned and whose declarations don't, on their own, have
25 such a powerful probative value.
1 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President, can I just make one more
2 small reply. Just thinking about yesterday, you remember when we had the
3 document where this Commander Alagic had been interviewed in 1993 about
4 events in Sanski Most that had taken place in 1991, it was interview by
5 someone in Republika Srpska, and first of all, you chastised Dr. Karadzic
6 for putting the third party statements to a witness. That statement had
7 actually said that the witness was involved in persuading him -- or, it
8 referred directly to the witness's conduct during the events, and you
9 didn't admit it over objection by the Prosecutor because it was a
10 statement of a third party and it was taken after the fact. It wasn't
11 contemporaneous. And that's been basically the rule. We didn't really
12 even complain about that. Now the Prosecution wants to change the rule
13 and have you admit statements of people after the fact that are not
14 contemporaneous and I don't see any basis for changing the rules of the
15 game in mid-stream. How many times have you told Dr. Karadzic, Call this
16 witness, call Prlic, call this one, as a response to when he's putting
17 third party statements to a witness and we asked for them to be admitted.
18 It's time to tell them, Call Stanic. Thank you.
19 MR. GAYNOR: Mr. President, can I make two responses to that,
20 with your leave. First of all, the vast majority of statements put by
21 Mr. Karadzic to witnesses are witness statements taken by investigative
22 authorities. The second point is this, and it may not necessarily apply
23 to the documents Mr. Robinson has just raised, and that is some of these
24 statements put by Mr. Karadzic to witnesses are witnesses taken by RS MUP
25 investigators of Muslim prisoners of war during the conflict, and there
1 has been considerable evidence provided to the Chamber about the
2 interrogation methods used by the RS MUP during the conflict, and such
3 statements may well be inadmissible under Rule 95. But as a general
4 matter, we are not asking the Trial Chamber to change the rules. We are
5 stating that a television interview of a person does not fall within the
6 lex specialis of Rule 92 bis or 92 ter, and it falls within 89(C) 6c and
7 should be considered in accordance with the guidelines that the
8 Trial Chamber has handed down. Thank you, Mr. President.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber wishes to issue a more informed decision
11 on this, and we will put this matter under its advisement. We will come
12 back to this issue in due course.
13 Yes, Mr. Karadzic, are you ready to start your cross-examination?
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, your Excellencies. Good
15 afternoon, your Excellencies, good afternoon to everyone.
16 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
17 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, witness.
18 A. Good afternoon.
19 Q. I would like to cover as quickly as possible the issues you
20 discussed in examination-in-chief. So, Mr. Ostojic, according to you,
21 objected about you being among Ustashas, had his exact words were that
22 were you among Ustashas and balijas. Is it true that Mr. Izetbegovic
23 knew exactly which faith you were of and what ethnicity you were of, and
24 that that did not mean automatically that you were to be among Ustashas?
25 A. I have nothing to do with Izetbegovic.
1 Q. No, no. I meant Ostojic.
2 A. Well, Ostojic said, You went and are now among Ustashas and
3 balijas. And I told him that I was with the JNA and I had nothing to do
4 with the SDS.
5 Q. Let me tell you, do you know that Mr. Ostojic was married to a
6 Muslim woman and that he never ever used the word balija?
7 (redacted) and there was
8 an unpleasant situation. I know that his wife was a Muslim. I also knew
9 who his father was because that's what I learned from my late father.
10 But these are the words that he addressed to me. He personally said that
11 to me.
12 Q. Thank you. We saw that the Crisis Staff, the Serb Crisis Staff,
13 was established on the 3rd of April, 1992. Do you know when the
14 Muslim Crisis Staff was set up in Foca?
15 A. As an active military serviceman, I was never interested in when
16 the SDS Crisis Staff was set up, nor that one of the SDA, or of any other
17 party in Bosnia-Herzegovina or in the former Yugoslavia for that matter.
18 As an active military serviceman, I received orders from the
19 777th Logistics Base in Sarajevo which in turn received its orders from
20 Belgrade. So I was not interested in these things in the least.
21 However, my colleague, who was some 3 kilometres away at another
22 warehouse, up until the 2nd of April, he went on a daily basis to the
23 Municipal Assembly in Foca where there were members of the SDA and SDS
24 party. There was the Crisis Staff there as well, or members of the
25 Crisis Staff were present, mostly it was Stanic, this is what my
1 colleague told me. They tried to calm the tensions and to ensure that a
2 war would not break out and that they would find peaceful solutions to
3 the problems.
4 Q. Thank you. Do you know whether -- do you think that all of those
5 members of the Crisis Staff whose names were on the list shown to you by
6 Mr. Gaynor, do you think that all of them are members of the SDS or
7 perhaps some were not?
8 A. There are still political parties in Bosnia-Herzegovina and the
9 SDS is one of them. Currently, it is possible for somebody of another
10 ethnicity to be a member of the SDS. I can give you an example of
11 Desnica [phoen], who is now a member of the SDA and I know another Serb
12 from Sarajevo who is a member of the SDA. However, at that time I didn't
13 know about these matters, I wasn't interested, and I never heard that
14 somebody of another faith could have joined the SDS or the SDA for that
16 Q. Thank you. What I wanted to ask you is this: Whether all
17 members of the Serb Crisis Staff were necessarily members of the SDS as
18 well, or perhaps there were some Serbs there who were members of another
19 political party. That's what I asked you.
20 A. Well, the Crisis Staffs depended on political parties, and how
21 they envisioned them. There wasn't just the Army of Republika Srpska
22 during the war but there were also people who remained there after the
23 29th of May who used to be active members of the JNA -- or rather, the
24 Army of Yugoslavia and then there were members of the paramilitary
25 formations who used to come from Serbia who were not members of political
1 parties, so it doesn't mean that members of the Crisis Staff were
2 necessarily members of the SDS.
3 Q. Thank you. Do you agree that Foca, before the arrival of Turks
4 and for a while after the Turks arrived, had a different name? Do you
5 know what name it had?
6 A. I don't know. I would probably make a mistake if I were to tell
8 Q. Well, I will give you a proposition. Do you agree that it was
9 called Foca -- Hoca?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And there is a place name, identical place name, in Kosovo. It
12 exists as well?
13 A. Well, that was a transit town in Turkish times. I've heard of
14 that name, but I never really researched it and I really never was
15 interested in the meanings of words and so on.
16 Q. Thank you. You said today that Serbs gave Serb prefix to place
17 names. Are there perhaps Bosnian prefixes that remain, for example,
18 Bosanska Krupa, and so on? So were there places that had in their name
19 Bosnian prefix and that -- were such cases known to you and were they
20 also similarly places where Serbs lived and where Serbs added Serbian
22 A. Yes. It's true. In the old Yugoslavia, there were place names
23 that had prefix "Bosanski" or "Bosnian." And before this war ended, some
24 place names were changed. In cases where Serbs had taken up that
25 territory, they assigned their own names to places based on their own
1 decisions which were published in the Official Gazette and so on.
2 Q. Thank you. Do you agree that during the Austro-Hungarian empire,
3 we and Croatia were part of the same country called Austro-Hungarian
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Do you agree that a number of towns on the Sava River were a
7 single entity, Kostajnica was one town, and then after the
8 Austro-Hungarian empire fell apart, it split into two parts, the Croatian
9 part and Bosnian part. And the same could be said of Brod and Samac and
10 some other places; is that correct?
11 A. Yes, that's correct.
12 Q. Do you distinguish between the commander of the Crisis Staff and
13 commander of the Territorial Defence?
14 A. The commander of the Territorial Defence could exist in a certain
15 territory, whereas the commander of the Crisis Staff could be in charge
16 of several areas, not necessarily just one.
17 Q. Thank you. Do you remember that Mr. Stanic mentioned the
18 following: He said, Had we not done that, we would have experienced the
19 same thing we experienced during World War II? Do you agree that the
20 Serbs and Muslims exterminated each other in World War II and that Foca
21 was a particularly bloody spot during that war, civil war --
22 MR. GAYNOR: Objection, this is irrelevant.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. -- and religious war?
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't think it's irrelevant. On
1 the basis of that, things happened in 1992 on the basis of the experience
2 gained beforehand and the witness -- or rather, Stanic mentioned that.
3 That is what we believe, that this war was a continuation of the
4 Second World War. That is what we fully believe and the witness can say
5 yes or no.
6 JUDGE KWON: In the clip, Mr. Stanic referred to that experience.
7 So for clarification, that question can be asked and answered. Could you
8 answer the question, Mr. Witness?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please repeat that question again.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Is it correct that during the Second World War, the Serbs and
12 Muslims had a terrible experience exterminating each other? What was
13 particularly drastic and bloody was the past of Foca?
14 A. My father, my late father, was a veteran. Foca suffered after
15 the fall of the Drina bridge that had been destroyed. The entire
16 population of Foca fell victim to the Chetniks. Most of these Chetniks
17 came from Montenegro and from Serbia. I can say that the families of
18 Popovic, Dragovic from Foca, who were locals from Foca, they were not in
19 those units, rather they were in the Partizan units. So that statement
20 is not correct. It's not correct that the Serbs and Muslims were
21 slaughtering each other during the war. It was the Chetnik units that
22 were slaughtering the Muslim people. And along with the Muslim people,
23 all of those who were helping them, the Muslim people, or rather, who
24 were against the Chetniks.
25 JUDGE KWON: I allowed you to put that question but if you pursue
1 that line, there is no end. So come to the issues.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, Excellency. I didn't
3 want to establish whose fault it was, but it's a well known thing that
4 the Muslims first sided with the Ustashas, and that was the reason why
5 the Chetniks sought their revenge, and the gentleman, the witness,
6 expanded on this topic. I just wanted to say who did what to the other
7 side without trying to establish who was guilty.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Sir, do you know who Alija Siljak is? During this war and before
10 the war, was he not a citizen of Foca who was in the Ustasha movement of
11 the Croatian rights movement in Zagreb? Was he not the vice-president or
12 something like that?
13 A. Alija Siljak? I was born in Foca. He's a neighbour of mine.
14 His father and his entire family, one brother and several sisters, are
15 die-hard Muslims. Alija was an extremist who went to Croatia, and he
16 says that he's one of the greatest Ustashas. He's a man with a criminal
17 record, and he had nothing in common with his parents. Quite simply, he
18 strayed away from his own people.
19 Q. Thank you. Do you know that during the war in Croatia, and
20 before our war, quite a few young Foca Muslims went to Alija Siljak to
21 take part in combat against Serbs, to train and to bring weapons? If you
22 didn't know anything about it you can say so, just tell us.
23 A. I did not know about that because I was not in Foca at the time.
24 Q. Thank you. Did you know how the negotiations on the
25 transformation of Bosnia were going in order to have the Serbs accept
1 Bosnia's independence and how the negotiations went at the level of the
2 republic and at the level of Foca, and that it was envisaged that there
3 would be two municipalities, one Serb and one Muslim in Foca?
4 A. Since at that time I hardly ever watched the news and followed
5 that, because I was in Pale for a while, but then I was immediately
6 seconded to Filipovici, so I wasn't really interested in this political
7 aspect, whether the division would go this way or that way, or whether
8 things would happen the way they actually did in Sarajevo, that there is
9 this eastern Sarajevo and whatever else. I was not really following all
10 of that.
11 Q. Thank you. Is it not true that to this day, there is a Muslim
12 municipality that is called Foca Ustikolina?
13 A. Yes. There is Ustikolina who is 12 kilometres away from Foca.
14 That is where the population is Muslim, that is to say the population
15 that was expelled from Foca and from around Foca. The real citizens of
16 Foca rebuilt their houses, do not want to have them sold. That's what
17 they have been saying. Quite simply, they want to have their own homes
18 in Foca. Quite a few real Focaks returned to Foca, but only elderly
19 people. Young people haven't returned.
20 Q. Thank you. Do you know or do you not know that gunfire came from
21 the mosques in Foca, sniper fire, and also fire from heavy weaponry?
22 A. This is some information that you received from someone, and that
23 is not correct. My colleague who went every day to attend meetings did
24 not provide that kind of information to me. We were together until the
25 25th of April. The 25th of April. That could not have happened until
1 the 25th of April. In addition to that, all the weapons that people had
2 at their homes were handed over in order to avoid a fight. I, as a unit,
3 I didn't have any snipers. How could the Muslims have snipers or
4 somebody else. If the JNA did not have snipers in that territory, how
5 could somebody else? Well, perhaps they may have gotten them from
6 somewhere but I don't know. I haven't heard about it.
7 Q. Do you know who Meho Karisik nicknamed Kemo is?
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. Haven't you heard that he's a general of the
10 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina? At the time he was the Commander-in-Chief of
11 the Patriotic League. Meho Karisik, a famous person, a celebrity, have
12 you not heard of him?
13 A. I heard of him in Sarajevo but I thought that you were not
14 talking about that period, April. I mean Meho Karisik was in Sarajevo,
15 although after that, I mean, after Foca I didn't go to Sarajevo so
16 I cannot say exactly who this man was. I heard the name, though.
17 Q. Thank you. This is what Mr. Karisik said in the "Oslobodjenje"
18 daily on the 3rd of May, 1997, on page 21: Just before the war, I was in
19 Foca twice. Foca had quite a lot of weapons. Why was -- were these
20 weapons not used? We are going to find out later who the culprit was.
21 Secondly, we sent two co-ordinators to Foca in order to carry out
22 military preparations for the war. However the people from Foca said
23 that they knew how to do it without them. Probably they mistrusted
24 military personnel.
25 Now you are saying that there were no weapons in Foca, and the
1 general says that Foca had enough weapons. However, they didn't want to
2 accept these officers. What do you say to that?
3 MR. GAYNOR: Can I object for one moment. The "Oslobodjenje"
4 article that Mr. Karadzic is referring to is not on the list of
5 cross-examination documents referred -- presented to us by the Defence,
6 and if he's going to show it to read large parts of it, perhaps he could
7 show it on the screen to the witness. Thank you.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I respond? I'm reading this
9 from this book that is called "The black Book," and there is a quote from
10 "Oslobodjenje." I didn't really want to bring this up but the witness
11 denied that the Muslims were armed in Foca. Had he not disputed that,
12 I would not have brought this up. When the time comes, we are going to
13 deal with this through another witness. I just wanted to see whether the
14 witness still claims that Foca had been unarmed. A Muslim general says
15 that Foca had been armed.
16 JUDGE KWON: Did you give notice to the Prosecution of the --
17 your potential use of that "Black Book," Mr. Karadzic?
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, no. This is a book that is
19 full of quotations, and it is an accurate quotation. I wouldn't have
20 brought it up had the witness not said something that -- or rather,
21 disputed something that we all knew, or at least I thought we all knew
22 that, we all knew that Foca was armed, and how. I am just reading out to
23 him what the general said in contrast to what he's been saying to us.
24 JUDGE KWON: We are discussing the proper disclosure of material
25 you are going to use in your cross-examination. You should give a proper
1 notice to the other party. Consult Mr. Robinson.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, if the witness is
3 denying something that I did not think he would deny, how do I deal with
4 that? I did not think that that would be denied. It is a generally
5 known thing that Foca was armed.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I answer?
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If someone was armed and if that
9 someone is then attacked by somebody else, how come the one who is armed
10 escapes and then Foca falls within six days? So if I have weapons and if
11 I can defend myself and if I have the right kind of morale in my unit, at
12 any rate there has to be fighting. And one part after the other should
13 be liberated or taken or whatever, so the morale in the SDA was zero
14 compared to the SDS that was carrying out the attacks.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Thank you. We have statements from the SDA where it says the
17 entire leadership had fled, Saja, this well known Saja packed up and
18 left. He left people in the lurch. And if the Muslims had been unarmed,
19 the Serbs would not have needed six days to take over. They would have
20 needed only one day; right?
21 A. Well, maybe. But you know what, well actually you know better
22 than I do, all the Serbs who used to go to school with me who did not
23 want to attack Foca ended up at the KP Dom, the correctional facility.
24 Q. Thank you. Now, today you mentioned that this person said that
25 he had a headache from the prayer coming from the mosque. Do you know
1 that to this day, there is a recommendation issued by Catholic, Orthodox
2 and Islamic religious leaders that bells should not ring too loud and
3 that prayers should not be called to in this very loud manner either,
4 also discussions were held on having a 50/50 balance. However, to this
5 day, for instance, there is this discussion in Bijeljina because to this
6 day the imam in Bijeljina is playing this call to prayer that is too
7 loud. Do you know about that?
8 A. Yes. I know. There is -- there are some situations where the
9 volume is shattering. However, what can we do? People have to come to
10 their senses, and realise that in accordance with their very own religion
11 they should not disturb the other population that lives in the
13 Q. Thank you. Did you know about this incident, or rather, crisis
14 in interethnic relations that broke out in connection with Focatrans
15 before the elections in August and September 1990, when the Serbs lost
16 all rights in Focatrans because that man, Kaliman, the director, did not
17 want to respect their rights? Do you remember that crisis? Did you know
18 about it?
19 A. I knew about it from the media.
20 Q. Thank you. Do you remember, or actually, have you heard about
21 this or were you present when the founding assembly was held in -- of the
22 SDS in Foca and I attended, and Mr. Muhamed Cengic attended as well, he
23 is a native of Foca, and together with the Muslim delegation, I threw
24 flowers into the Drina from the bridge where both Muslims and Serbs had
25 been victims before?
1 A. I did not really follow that so I cannot say.
2 Q. Thank you. Let me not mention the name of the place that you
3 went to from Pale. You were sent to Foca; is that right?
4 A. It was Filipovici that I was assigned to. Not Foca.
5 Q. All right. Was it your understanding that it would have been a
6 good thing for you to be there in a view of your ethnic and religious
8 A. Perhaps that's what they thought but I don't think that that was
9 the thinking of the JNA. On the other hand, this is a purely technical
10 warehouse, and I'm a technical person. So it is only guards that would
11 belong to other parts of the military. As for all the other personnel
12 there, they were technical people.
13 Q. Thank you. When did you actually arrive there in Filipovici?
14 A. I arrived when the order was written up.
15 Q. What date? If that is a delicate matter we can move into private
17 A. It is not delicate at all. On the 15th of January.
18 Q. The 15th of January 1992; right? Did you live in town or did you
19 live at the warehouse?
20 A. I lived at the warehouse.
21 Q. During that time, did you have insight into what was happening in
22 town and in the municipality in general?
23 A. I had no insight until the 2nd of April when in accordance with
24 the orders from our superiors from Sarajevo somebody had to go to Foca.
25 My colleague went, the one who received every -- information every day
1 and, yes, meetings were held and he conveyed all of this to me.
2 Q. Thank you. You mentioned in your statements that it was very
3 difficult to get through to Sarajevo. In the beginning of March, there
4 were roadblocks and so on; right?
5 A. That's right.
6 Q. And you then thought and said that those were the SDS people;
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And what made you think that the SDS had organised the
10 barricades? Where did you get that information from?
11 A. Well, it's not information. It was the actual state of affairs
12 because I was supposed to go back to Filipovici. I didn't go to work,
13 and -- for three days, and when we stopped at the barricade at Trnovo,
14 you knew whose barricade it was. In Miljevina, I had some problems and
15 there were police of -- if it wasn't for the police of the JNA I would
16 have terrible problems. So I knew that there were barricades, people
17 were fleeing towards Montenegro in their private cars, in their firms'
18 cars. They were running to the south.
19 Q. Thank you. Now, these people at the barricades, by the economic
20 school in Sarajevo, you said, and then in other places too, did they have
21 any masks on their faces?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Thank you. Did you know any of them personally?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Thank you. And then you said in your statement of the
1 23rd of December, 1995, which is on page 4 -- or rather, paragraph 4,
2 from April 1996 -- well, you said that you came across the barricades
3 which were erected by the terrorists of the SDS. Is that what you said?
4 A. Well, you could say so, yes.
5 Q. Thank you. Now, do you equate the Serbs were the SDS? Do you
6 think it's one and the same thing?
7 A. No, God forbid.
8 Q. You say that in the same statement -- in the same statement of
9 1995, page 3, paragraph 2, you say there that you came across -- you were
10 stopped at Miljevina by armed SDS people with Chetnik insignia. Did they
11 actually have Chetnik insignia?
12 A. Well, they always did.
13 Q. Thank you. Do you know that at the beginning of April, when the
14 crisis broke out, Professor Koljevic crossed the mountains which were
15 snow-covered, and him and his group were almost shot as -- the
16 vice-president, premier of Republika Srpska, a member of the
17 BH Presidency because they were considered traitors? Did you ever hear
18 about that?
19 A. Yes. Those are the kinds of things that happened in wartime.
20 But you couldn't command all the units so that's what happens. So it's
21 not strange. I don't find it unusual.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honour, I'd like to raise an objection, I did
24 it as fast as I could. A few moments ago, Mr. Karadzic referred to
25 page 4 of the witness's statement of 1996 which is 65 ter 21 -- 22158,
1 and said the witness had referred to barricades under the control of SDS
2 terrorists, I believe he said. Now those words do not appear in the
3 witness's statement. He says barricades at Mojmilo which was under the
4 control of the SDS. Now, I invite Mr. Karadzic to direct us to where he
5 found the words "SDS terrorists." Thank you.
6 JUDGE KWON: Terrorists of the SDS. And witness confirmed in a
7 way that he can say so. Could you give the reference, Mr. Karadzic.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].
9 Q. That, then, is footnote 39, and it says the statement of the 23rd
10 of December, 1995. Page 3, paragraph 1. And the statement goes on. The
11 next statement is the 1996 statement, 00391491 is the page number,
12 paragraph 4, and it refers to the barricades at Trnovo by the Treskavica
13 hotel where they had less problems. And then in Miljevina which is the
14 next bit, it's the 1995 statement, page 3, paragraph 2, that in
15 Miljevina, when they arrived there, they found armed SDS people there,
16 they were called Elezi and they had Chetnik insignias; is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 JUDGE KWON: The issue was whether witness referred to the
19 terminology of terrorists of the SDS. So he's asking for the reference
20 for that.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, it's in that first 1995
22 statement, page 3, paragraph 1. The 23rd of December, 1995, page 3,
23 paragraph 1. 1D04224 is the number.
24 JUDGE KWON: Are you satisfied with that, Mr. Gaynor?
25 MR. GAYNOR: I'll check that, Mr. President, and I'll come back
1 to you if there is any issue. Thank you.
2 JUDGE KWON: Let's continue, Mr. Karadzic.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Did you know that the SDA issued, to its followers, instructions
6 and directives to block the JNA barracks and to attack the JNA barracks?
7 A. No. Because I didn't collaborate with the SDA. I just
8 co-operated with -- well, I wanted to call a meeting between the SDS and
9 the SDA twice, representatives from the warehouse, but I didn't succeed
10 in reconciling the two sides.
11 Q. Thank you. Now, did you happen to note whose barricades in
12 Sarajevo existed, were there only Serb barricades or were there Muslim
13 barricades in Sarajevo too?
14 A. When I was supposed to report for duty in Sarajevo, well, I set
15 out, first of all, towards Trnovo, and I was unsuccessful. The barricade
16 that was there was in the eastern section of Sarajevo, and that was a
17 Serb barricade. The next day, following orders, I was supposed to go
18 across Bascarsija to Pale, but I didn't manage to do that because there
19 was fighting and the tunnel was unsafe. On day three, I tried to go
20 towards Kosmice [phoen] and Trbelic [phoen], but I didn't succeed in
21 doing that either because there was shooting once again. Whether it was
22 from both sides, I can't say, but anyway I went back. On the fourth day,
23 I set out towards Trnovo and that's where I had problems. They asked
24 that the chief of the municipality in Trnovo be replaced so we were
25 stopped. We had a big problem. And the barricades in Trnovo were Serb
1 barricades. In Miljevina there were Serb barricades again. There were
2 no other barricades because I reached the barracks with ten military
4 Q. Thank you. Now, is it true that the Marshal Tito Barracks is
5 located practically in the centre of Sarajevo, between the museum and the
6 railway station and that it is in the Muslim part of Sarajevo, if I can
7 put it that way?
8 A. Well, yes, that is true. That's its location, proper location.
9 However, you can't say that it's the Muslim section of town because
10 behind the barracks, behind the Marshal Tito barracks, there is a
11 monument to Tito, and to the left of that, and you know this full well,
12 there are some apartment houses where there were active military
13 personnel living, high-ranking officers, in fact, and you know that much
14 better than I do.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 JUDGE KWON: If it is convenient, shall we take a break now?
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just ask one more question
18 before we break?
19 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Is it true that you had difficulties, together with Kovacevic, or
22 whoever you were with, to reach the barracks? And is it true that the
23 barracks were blocked by the Muslim forces, the Green Berets and the
24 Patriotic League?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Well, did you have difficulty in reaching the barracks?
2 A. No. The difficulties I had was in Miljevina, whether they would
3 let us through or not. Because in Miljevina, they picked and chose
4 whether they would let you go towards -- on towards Montenegro because
5 people were fleeing. So I arrived there with the military policemen that
6 I mentioned and they were armed, and everybody setting up this blockade,
7 all of us, the Serbs, the Croats and the military police was under my
8 command, and so there would have been an attack and we would have
9 defended ourselves. So they couldn't stop us because they knew that a
10 clash would ensue.
11 Q. Yes. Not even Elezi; right?
12 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Gaynor, did you find that the witness indeed in
13 his statement in December 1995 referred to barricades set up by the SDS
15 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, I did find that reference, thank you,
16 Mr. President.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE KWON: We will take a break for half an hour and resume at
20 --- Recess taken at 3.02 p.m.
21 --- On resuming at 3.37 p.m.
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Witness, is it true that you thought that the military security
1 and military police were surveying you and controlling you?
2 A. I didn't give it much thought.
3 Q. But you said something similar, that you were monitored by the
4 military police in Ustikolina. You say that in your statement of the
5 20th and 21st of April, 1996, on page 00391491, paragraph 2. Did you
6 think that they mistrusted you?
7 A. Well, if I said that in my statement, then quite possibly yes.
8 Q. Thank you. Do you agree that for a whole year before the war
9 broke out, the Muslims and Croats did not do their regular military
10 service, nor did they respond to the call-up for reservists, the
11 mobilisation of reservists and the call-up there?
12 A. As far as I know, in Donja Skladiste, next to me, the lower
13 warehouse, the Muslims were reservists and it was only on the basis of an
14 order from the SDA on the 1st of January, 1992, that they all left the
15 JNA as reservists.
16 Q. Thank you. Did you mind?
17 A. No, because I didn't want to accept duties that weren't the
18 duties of regular soldiers so I just had regular soldiers within my
19 composition, I didn't have any reservists so it didn't effect me much,
20 except for my deputy, he was a reservist and a civilian. All the others
21 were soldiers of different ethnicity. I had Albanians, Macedonians,
22 Serbs from Serbia proper, Serbs from Bosnia and Muslims. It was the
23 regular -- well, they were doing their regular military service which was
24 extended for two or three months.
25 Q. Thank you. Is it true that at one point in time, while you were
1 in Ustikolina, the Muslim reservists left the JNA?
2 A. Yes, they did. They left the JNA, that's quite true, and as far
3 as logistics was concerned, I was linked to the lower barracks so I knew
4 exactly what was going on down there in the barracks, and I was on good
5 terms with the commander who was down there.
6 Q. Thank you. And it was a fuel warehouse, was it not, and other
7 military equipment was stored there as well?
8 A. It was just a fuel warehouse, which following an order given in
9 December from the federal state organs of Yugoslavia, it was transferred
10 for the army, army purposes, for the JNA, and they were -- it was
11 supposed to serve the UN units, supply the UN units in that area. That
12 was the purpose of it.
13 Q. Thank you. May we have D400 briefly on e-court, please. I'd
14 just like to remind you and ask you whether as an officer, you knew that
15 an order was issued to block the barracks of the JNA units. On the
16 12th of April was the first one, the second one on the 22nd of April, and
17 the third one on the 29th of April.
18 A. No, I did not know about that.
19 Q. Can we take a look at the document now. You have both versions,
20 Serbian and English. And this is dated the 29th of April. So this is
21 from the minister. The minister of internal affairs elaborating the
22 directive given by Hasanefendic. Is it true that on the 8th April, the
23 command of the Territorial Defence of -- Vukosavljevic [phoen], a Serb
24 was replaced and Hasanefendic, a Muslim, appointed in his place? Is that
1 A. I'm not aware of that. So I can't say either way. I don't know.
2 Q. Can we -- well, take a look at where it says, I am ordering,
3 I hereby order, that paragraph, so your colleagues from the JNA, did they
4 warn you of it, that this order would be issued? And it was given on the
5 12th of April. This is an elaboration at the MUP.
6 A. No they didn't draw my attention to that because in Sarajevo at
7 the command, every day at 8.00 we would report, and it was the duty of
8 the commander down there at the barracks to inform others of the
9 information -- the commander in Sarajevo of the information received. So
10 we had to inform and brief Sarajevo every day on events up until the 22nd
11 of April.
12 Q. But the telephone lines were down after the 22nd of April; is
13 that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you. Were you able to go to Foca and call from Foca, or
16 were those lines down too?
17 A. Well, communication with Foca were operational, but I didn't need
18 to do that because I was on orders from -- it was the commander from
19 Donja, the lower barracks. He was -- he had orders to go and see what
20 was happening and to report back to the commanders in Sarajevo.
21 Q. Thank you. Now, between Filipovici and Foca, the lines were not
22 down, but between Foca and Sarajevo, the communication lines were down;
23 is that right?
24 A. I don't know. I think the switchboard, the exchange, was manned
25 by seven soldiers and an officer, senior officer. Now, what happened to
1 that, I'm not sure. My telephone line was not working to Sarajevo or
2 with Foca. So on the 23rd I wasn't able to call Foca either.
3 Q. Thank you. Now, is it true and correct that in the second half
4 of April, a helicopter arrived and a Muslim officer and another Serb
5 lower-ranking officer brought salaries with them?
6 A. Yes. They brought in the salaries, and they bought some sanitary
7 material because the previous day, the helicopter which was supposed to
8 fly in all these medical supplies was stopped in Foca. Anyway, it
9 wasn't -- the medical supplies were not handed over for the purposes of
10 the JNA. So the next door warehouse to me received very little medical
12 Q. Mr. Hasanefendic came together in that helicopter with another
14 A. Yes, that's right. That's how it was.
15 Q. Is it true that they came in a helicopter because due to
16 roadblocks and wartime operations, one couldn't travel in a car?
17 A. No. It seems that the itinerary that the helicopter was taking
18 and that was Sarajevo-Pale-Foca-Filipovici-Visegrad and then back to Pale
19 and Sarajevo, Rajlovac, dictated that they come in a helicopter. In such
20 situations when one anticipate something it is quicker and more efficient
21 to travel that way. In addition to that, they received an order from
22 Sarajevo, not from just anybody. There were people in charge of security
23 who were there to evaluate whether transport should be made by this means
24 or by some other means.
25 Q. That was on 19th or 20th of April and the order came from the JNA
1 command in Sarajevo, the command of the 2nd Military District; right?
2 A. Yes. That was the 2nd Military District, 777th Logistics Base.
3 Q. Thank you. In your statement, 65 ter 22158, on page 5,
4 paragraph 7, you say that the refugees kept coming into your facility.
5 And that the refugees were threatened by paramilitary groups, not by
6 regular forces. It was you who took in refugees as well as your deputy,
7 Zoran Milicevic. Is this Milicevic a Serb?
8 A. Yes. All soldiers remained faithful to the JNA. My deputy was
9 Zoran, and we took in refugees because there had been an order on the
10 12th of April saying that we could take in refugees. Prior to that, on
11 the 6th of April, I talked to my superior, Zoran Jovanovic,
12 lieutenant-colonel, in Sarajevo, and he told me that he would be sending
13 me a written order stating that I could house refugees. He also said
14 that he would guarantee in case there was an attack on either of the
15 warehouses, that they would react, that they would evacuate us and the
16 refugees. Since I had no fax machine, the order arrived at the lower
17 warehouse. And later on, I had to show this order when some other forces
18 came to take the barracks, and that saved my life.
19 Q. Thank you. Would you please look at the same page where it says
20 that the Muslims on the 6th of April 1992 started fleeing from Foca to
21 Gorazde, quite a number of them stopped in my warehouse, that's your
22 warehouse, so these are the refugees that had fled town and had come to
23 you, right, already on the 6th of April?
24 A. Yes, yes. No, they actually started coming already on the
25 3rd of April, the refugees. And they started inquiring whether they
1 could find shelter with me because they still believed, and this is what
2 the SDA was saying and Alija, they were still saying that they were
3 believing in the JNA. So this is why the people came inquiring whether
4 they could spend a night in the barracks, to which I told them they could
5 stay in the houses that were next to the barracks, and that on the
6 following day they could start doing something. I had received a verbal
7 order from my superiors, based on which I took in refugees, I had to
8 confiscate their weapons first, and if they wanted to leave the warehouse
9 and go to Gorazde because one couldn't travel to Sarajevo any longer, one
10 had to travel via a forest, and as they were leaving I would give them
11 back their weapons. They mostly did not have any rifles, just pistols.
12 Q. So the refugees had some weapons on them and who did they return
13 the weapons to?
14 A. They didn't return the weapons to me. I was duty-bound to take
15 their weapons as they arrived in the warehouse and I kept their weapons
16 while they were staying with me. As they left the warehouse, I would
17 return their weapons to them. It was mostly pistols. You know yourself
18 what one can use a pistol for, only for short-distance firing.
19 Q. Thank you. Do you see the next passage where you say in your
20 statement that the Crisis Staff of the SDA, on the 10th of 11th of April,
21 fled from Foca because their life was in danger there? Do you agree and
22 did you know that the Muslim fighters were quite dissatisfied? They
23 wrote reports to Izetbegovic saying that they had been betrayed, that the
24 elite had run away, leaving them to fight the Serbs.
25 A. President of the Municipal Assembly of Foca, Gojo, who in
1 wartime, in a way, became a commander and was a member of the SDA, he was
2 among the first to flee to Ustikolina. One day, after the landing of the
3 helicopter, I met him for the first time. He came looking for some
4 medical supplies, saying that they had nothing at the health centre in
5 Ustikolina, to which I replied that me and the commander of the other
6 warehouse received basically very little of the medical supplies, which
7 were insufficient for us.
8 Q. Thank you. Do you know that from the -- in the Muslim part of
9 Foca, the hospital was surrounded, that they were firing at the hospital
10 and that the director of the hospital, Dr. Simo Stankovic, informed via
11 Tanjug that there were bullets flying into the hospital, that the
12 surgical ward had been damaged and that the hospital had been practically
13 completely surrounded?
14 A. I was informed about Simo Stankovic from the other commander. I
15 also knew about the case that you described, and when these people came
16 and took all medical supplies from the hospital, I also heard about that.
17 I think that Dr. Simo was almost killed on that occasion and my colleague
18 informed me of all of these events.
19 Q. Thank you. Do you know that on 8 April, in the evening, there
20 was shooting on the Serb houses and that the house of Dr. Kovac, a
21 dentist, was set on fire, Mico Krnojelac, and some other houses owned by
22 Serbs, that the Green Berets took large parts of town under their
23 control, and that all the way up until the KP Dom, the entire territory
24 was fired at?
25 A. I didn't know all these details, but, yes, the commander told me
1 that there was some shooting on some houses near the hospital.
2 Q. Thank you. Were there any Serbs who had sought shelter in your
3 barracks or was it just Muslims?
4 A. Among the first group of refugees, there was a Serb. He was a
5 relative of a school friend of mine, Stojan. His name was Ivan and he
6 was among the first ones to come. He remained there the entire time
7 until the barracks was overrun.
8 Q. Thank you. And did you hear that prior to the conflict erupting,
9 there were a lot of Serbs and Muslims, entire families, who had left Foca
10 and that later on, after the fighting calmed down, the Serb authorities
11 issued a public statement inviting all of them to come back?
12 A. I have heard of that. However, if one wants to be reasonable, if
13 you want to take a reasonable look at it, to return after the territory
14 after having been expelled from there, after the war had taken place
15 there, to return to the place where there were a lot of newcomers from
16 some other areas, regardless of who had control of the area, whether
17 Serbs or Muslims, I wouldn't recommend anyone to come back without there
18 being a stable system in place. And to this day we don't have a stable
19 system in Bosnia, even though it is peaceful.
20 Q. Thank you. So you speak about people who had come from
21 elsewhere. You call them paramilitary formations. Do you have the
22 White Eagles in mind when you say that? Those White Eagles were headed
23 by Desimir Dida and some other people who were not from Foca.
24 A. I speak of people who had come in and taken territory. Dida
25 himself said that he had been tasked with doing that. He said that his
1 order was to take up 65 per cent of the territory and to ensure that it
2 was Serbian. Those people were against the Yugoslav People's Army and
3 they wanted to be paid for their services. They also didn't allow
4 anybody to disobey their orders, otherwise they would kill them.
5 Q. Is it true that you observed, yourself, that they were far more
6 powerful than Krnojelac and some others, and you stated so in your
8 A. Yes, because that same Dida told me in the office that Serbs from
9 Foca were not good fighters, in his view. Only Serbs from Krajina were
10 good fighters. And as for the other Serbs, he used an insult when
11 referring to them, and this is what I stated in my statement.
12 Q. Thank you. Is it true that the SDA Crisis Staff moved to a
13 factory of carpets; is that right? Was there such a factory?
14 A. Where did you find that written?
15 Q. Well, that's something you stated in your statement given on the
16 20th and 21st April, 1996, 003942, paragraph 4.
17 MR. GAYNOR: I think, Mr. Karadzic, he said SDS Crisis Staff, not
18 SDA Crisis Staff on that one.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No. It says here, [In English]
20 "They also told him ..." [No interpretation] [In English] "... was
21 functioning from the factory producing carpets and rugs and they started
22 their own radio station."
23 JUDGE KWON: Let's upload it. What's the 65 ter number?
24 April 21st.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 22158.
1 JUDGE KWON: We don't broadcast the first page.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now see 391492. Three
3 pages further, or four pages further down. Now, that should be
4 paragraph 4.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Which paragraph?
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes. It says, "I was also told by them that
7 Krizni Stab," I take it Crisis Staff SDS, "was functioning from a factory
8 producing carpet and rugs."
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Was that the SDS Crisis Staff in the carpet factory or the SDA
12 A. Based on what I heard, they killed a certain number of people,
13 and they mentioned the names, so unless it was a case of the SDA shooting
14 at their own people, I don't think so. They also said that nobody around
15 the railway station had even a theoretical chance of crossing the bridge.
16 Q. All right. And it begins with the words that the Crisis Staff of
17 the SDA escaped from Foca and then they say that the SDS was actually in
18 the carpet factory. Do you know who was at the carpet factory?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Thank you. Very well. So when the refugees arrived in your
21 base, you were cautious, you were worried that White Eagles could attack
22 them; right?
23 A. I thought somebody could attack them. I was afraid that there
24 would be a situation where the SDA, who was stationed near the fence of
25 the warehouse, could cause some shooting, and on one night there was
1 shooting. So one day I called Suad from the SDA and I told them, We are
2 not going to shoot at you first and make sure you don't shoot at us,
3 otherwise there would be huge problems. Therefore there was never a
4 single incident while the regular army was in place and while the SDA was
5 there up until the 26th of April.
6 Q. So between the 6th of April until the 26th of April, you hosted
7 those refugees and you provided for them?
8 A. I didn't really host them. That was no hosting. Those people
9 slept on tables, under the tables, I couldn't provide food for them,
10 excuse me, because I received my supplies from the lower barracks. These
11 people stayed in the houses that were next to the warehouse and they
12 found food there, but it was important for those people to be able to
13 spend a night safely at the warehouse making sure that nobody was killed
14 and so on.
15 Q. Thank you. Was there nevertheless some shooting in the area,
16 shooting between Muslims and Serbs, in the vicinity of your base?
17 A. Yes. There was shooting. I sent out my deputy, Zoran, when two
18 Serbs were killed in Gornji Grad. So I sent out my deputy, Zoran, to see
19 what the situation was, to talk to people, to check with the SDA
20 representative Suljo, what needed to be done. He did all that together
21 with Vukovic, Drago Vukovic. However, there was yet another shooting
22 after that between them, and two more Serbs were killed in that shooting.
23 So all in all, four men were killed up there. And after the other two
24 were killed, the situation escalated and people didn't really talk
25 rationally any more.
1 Q. Thank you. Did the Serbs suspect refugees of being armed still
2 and did they suspect them of shooting, those refugees who sought shelter
3 with you?
4 A. Which Serbs do you have in mind?
5 Q. Those who were getting killed in the area, those that were
6 involved in shootouts with the SDA.
7 A. No way. Even the representative of the SDS, Pero Mihajlovic or
8 Knezevic, I don't know, anyway, this was the man who co-operated with me.
9 He phoned me and not at a single moment did he suspect the refugees of
10 having done anything. They were fleeing for their lives. So it's the
11 population of Filipovic together with Novi Grad. So it's both. I mean,
12 nobody involved the refugees in anything and they had nothing to do with
13 any of it.
14 Q. However, how did your superior command interpret this, the
15 takeover of this base?
16 A. Well, I stated that quite properly in my report, regardless of
17 which report you're looking at. (redacted)
18 (redacted) that the
19 commander from the lower warehouse had found out that there would be a
20 takeover of Ustikolina within six or seven days. In our report we
21 provided this information to our commander. He said that he would take
22 all necessary measures and issue orders to prevent that. However,
23 unfortunately, on the 22nd April, all communications were cut, telephone,
24 telefax, everything, all communications were Sarajevo, so we did not have
25 any contact at all with our commander or did we know what was going on,
1 and which order we should be receiving or not receiving, because
2 telephones and everything else were taken over, but by who, we don't
4 Q. Thank you. You said in your statement, on the
5 23rd of December 1995, paragraph 4 -- or rather, page 4, paragraph 1,
6 that already on the 25th, the White Eagles, led by this Desimir, Dida,
7 and his brother started attacking the warehouse; is that right?
8 A. Yes. Shells were falling. However, you know full well that in
9 war, it depends on what the co-ordinates given for the shells were. So
10 shells were falling on the village and on the warehouse, and later on
11 there was sniper shooting towards the entrance so I actually had to
12 withdraw my soldier from the entrance.
13 Q. Thank you. In your testimony, in the Krnojelac trial, that was
14 page 3109 to 3110, you say that in the night between the 20th and the
15 25th, the gunfire was getting closer, closer and closer to this
16 warehouse, and that refugees started leaving on the 25th of April during
17 the night. They were going to Gorazde; right?
18 A. Well, yes. That's what I said but it's been so long, so many
19 years, and you keep insisting on each and every minute detail. Well,
20 I guess you're entitled to do that. But anyway, I've already said that
21 from the 3rd onwards refugees started arriving, and some of them stayed
22 for a day or two and others would just spend the night there and then go
23 on to Gorazde. However, on the 25th, when we knew already, this
24 commander who was close to me -- when we knew that the attack against
25 Ustikolina was being prepared, we said, Run because we cannot guarantee
1 anyone's safety or life. And I don't want people to get killed and
2 I don't want it to be my responsibility. And I'm not to be blamed at
4 Q. Thank you. But these were the White Eagles, and in your
5 testimony on page 3112, paragraphs from 2 through 5, you say that at the
6 end they ultimately showed up at the entrance to the warehouse and they
7 were asking for something. They were asking for some negotiations or
9 A. No. During that shooting, a soldier brought this sort of piece
10 of paper, before they broke through by the gate. I had to withdraw my
11 soldier from the gate, and before this break through, the soldier came
12 and since I had deployed all the other soldiers -- I mean, if there were
13 to be an attack, we would respond by way of an attack. He was waving
14 this paper, whatever, he was saying that a fax had arrived because the
15 fax machine started working and he said that that was an order, and
16 I said, Come in through the main gate, try to crawl underneath the main
17 gate, and then after five metres, he was supposed to leave his weapons.
18 However, in the meantime there was this breakthrough by the White Eagles
19 with this vehicle of theirs and then the situation was different. They
20 entered the barracks, and I can tell you about all the rest if you're
22 Q. Thank you. Then they prevailed; right? There were more of them
23 and they prevailed, and you know exactly that it was the White Eagles.
24 What kind of insignia did they have?
25 A. On their vehicle, it said, the Serb guard, Srpska Garda. Dida
1 then said, "We are the White Eagles." They were marked with all sorts of
2 markings and insignia. Five-pointed stars. However, they had no
3 insignia of the JNA. They had all sorts of badges and whatever else.
4 Q. Thank you. Let us see now how this
5 Lieutenant-Colonel Zoran Jovanovic reported to his superiors, the
6 2nd Military District.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D42160, can we have that for a
8 moment, please. Can we have that in e-court. 1D4260.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Now, this is his report. Was there a warehouse in Stojkovici, a
11 JNA warehouse? Please take a look at this, the first sentence.
12 Situation in unit 744, logistics brigade.
13 A. I don't know about Stojkovic. I really wasn't interested in
14 that, to tell you the truth.
15 Q. Thank you. He reports here that this warehouse in Stojkovici was
16 taken by some Muslim colonel, Filipovic, or rather, the forces of the
17 Territorial Defence of the BH. And then this paragraph 3, it says that
18 he received a report that this warehouse in Filipovici was taken, and the
19 commander and nine soldiers were taken to the KP Dom Foca by the
20 Crisis Staff of Foca, their forces. This was preceded by the entry of
21 refugees including armed members of the SDA who probably intended to take
22 the warehouse. Aware of this incursion, SDS formations intervened and
23 placed the warehouse under their control, (redacted)
2 JUDGE KWON: Let us proceed.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Please, do you see this? Now, down here there is yet another
5 reference to Ustikolina, that there were conflicts, I mean it's this
6 fourth paragraph down here. Now, what does it say here in the fifth
7 paragraph, the commander of the 2nd Military District took measures to
8 have the commander and the soldiers returned to the warehouse, and then
9 the next paragraph, that there was fighting. Do you see that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And the combat went on from 12 until 1500 hours, between the SDS
12 and the SDA, and he doesn't know who they are, the SDS and the SDA, and
13 he thinks it's the Serbs and Muslims; right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. So do you see that there was this fear, there was this
16 information that among the refugees there were combatants of the SDA who
17 had sought shelter and that they would take over the warehouse, and that
18 was the reason for the Serbs to break into the warehouse?
19 A. I mean, well, of course, you're entitled to ask whatever you
20 want. Twelve people -- I mean, if all of them were Muslims, those who
21 went to the KP Dom -- since they did not have any weapons because we had
22 frisked them. So they could not have been armed. All the weapons, the
23 pistols, were taken. Only if they threw something over the fence, but
24 there was a soldier who was guarding the fence, two soldiers actually.
25 Now, these 12 people, taking 17 soldiers of mine, who were in the
1 warehouse and that the SDS had to intervene? And my soldiers were combat
2 ready, although they did not have mortars but they had proper side arms.
3 I mean, I really cannot understand any of this. I cannot understand this
4 at all. The 12 men unarmed can take 17 men who are armed and that
5 somebody needs to intervene.
6 Q. Thank you. And what about these people outside the warehouse?
7 Did they know that it was 12 people or could they think that it was all
8 over and that the warehouse could fall into the hands of the SDA? They
9 had no way of knowing, right, how many of them were there?
10 A. Well, they had had no way of knowing, but there has to be some
11 kind of reconnaissance, some kinds of unit that was reconnoitering,
12 although there was a war, that had to have been monitored by some
13 formation. I mean, please. On the 25th, I've already said that I had
14 said everyone should flee, just to save their lives. They should run for
15 their lives, with their children. I mean, I wasn't interested in
16 anything else. I mean, I didn't belong to any one of these formations
17 and I wasn't interested in any of this, and that's when the warehouse was
18 emptied. It was basically children, old men and women who remained. So
19 these 12 men they could not go any further. They were either sick or
20 quite simply they were not capable of doing anything. Anybody could see
21 the columns that were moving on the 26th, that were leaving in the
22 morning. Everybody who could, left. When the attack started, five or
23 six men with women broke into the warehouse. I have no idea who they
24 were. They sought shelter, there and I put them in a hangar and I have
25 no idea who these people are. It was just a question of saving their
1 lives. I wasn't really interested in anything else, to tell you the
3 Q. Thank you. Tell me, is it correct that you say, actually, that
4 they were reinforced with another 50 White Eagles who had come on buses,
5 and they looked through the depot, looking for weapons, ammunition, and
6 soldiers who were guarding the warehouse? That's what you said in your
7 statement of the 23rd of December, 1995, on page 4, paragraph 1. Was
8 that actually the case?
9 A. They came. They searched the entire warehouse. They wanted to
10 torch it. And then I had to say where the refugees were. And then
11 I opened all the safes that I could, and then they found those that had
12 not been opened, and then they went to take weapons, ammunition,
13 everything else. I had already issued an order to the soldiers who were
14 under my command, that they should come in front of the headquarters, and
15 they did come and none of them got killed, whereas the Serb guard or
16 White Eagles they were searching through the warehouse. They took
17 everything they could. They loaded all of that and then they left with
19 Q. Thank you. So what did they load on those vehicles and what type
20 of weapons?
21 A. Well, if I have to say, I guess I have to say, first of all,
22 I did not have any anti-armour. I had infantry weapons, nothing else.
23 Because according to the order that I had received from
24 Commander Jovanovic, in case there were to be any kind of attack,
25 additional units would arrive and they would be supplied logistically
1 from the third warehouse that was close to me, and that I would receive
2 help in troops from the third warehouse. Perhaps it was three BK for
3 infantry weapons, combat sets.
4 Q. The interpreters probably don't know what BK is. It's combat
5 sets, kits.
6 A. Yes, yes. And then you use that for firing.
7 Q. Thank you. Then you and your soldiers were taken away, nine
8 soldiers, it says here, right, your soldiers?
9 A. No. Nine? Seventeen soldiers, not nine soldiers, eight
10 civilians, rather.
11 Q. Ah-hah. Eight civilians, well, there were 17 Muslims who were
12 taken prisoner and taken to Velecevo together with you; right?
13 A. They set out towards Velecevo. They were not there. Actually,
14 they went down to Livade. That's what I found out later, that they
15 returned the soldiers.
16 Q. And you went on. Who went with you to Velecevo?
17 A. My driver, and Dida was in this other car, and two more people
18 who were from the White Eagles. I don't know who they were.
19 Q. And then you say that you saw a map on the table there. Was it
20 on the wall or on the table?
21 A. Both. On the table and on the wall, Vojo Maksimovic arrived
22 then, and he said, I've just come from Belgrade. I don't know about any
23 of this. I saw these topographic maps on the wall, and on the table, and
24 I saw some circles placed around certain locations and I saw red and blue
25 arrows, and I couldn't see any details because I came as a man who was a
2 Q. Thank you. What you saw in that map, did it correspond to what
3 you had heard that 60 per cent of the territory of the municipality of
4 Foca was Serb and that it belonged to the Serb municipality?
5 A. No, I couldn't. Who could do that? I mean, you're taken
6 prisoner and you're looking at details? I just cast a glance there. And
7 after all, it wasn't 60 per cent of Foca, but I told you a moment ago,
8 65 per cent of the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina was supposed to be
9 Serb and they did not want the JNA. Perhaps I did not speak properly but
10 that was their main objective. That is why these people were there
12 Q. Thank you. And did you see on the map that there were two areas,
13 one was green and one was blue, the Serb and Muslim areas?
14 A. No. It depends who marks what area in what colour. Whether the
15 units attacking or combat units, whether red or blue or green. No,
16 I can't say. I said I saw topographical maps on the table. I asked,
17 What's this? And I saw them on the wall. I wasn't an idiot. I didn't
18 want to ask about any details, and nobody would have allowed me to ask
19 about the details anyway.
20 Q. Thank you. Then you mention Ivanic, for example, who told Stanic
21 to see that nobody killed you, and that there would be refugees and
22 soldiers who were held in the school centre, and that they would be
24 A. Yes, that's what Ivanic said. He said I'm a Serb and I have to
25 leave on the 15th of May, otherwise I'll be a POW. And I'll be
1 considered a war criminal unless I leave on the 15th of May. And he
2 said, you mustn't kill this commander here. I'll inform everyone. You
3 have to release the refugees and the soldiers have completed their
4 military service and you have to let them go home. How they are going to
5 get there and what transportation they are going to use is another
6 matter. So Stanic had come out before that and he said that to Stanic,
7 and that was the end of the story.
8 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, bear in mind that you have five
9 minutes left.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I'd like to ask Mr. Robinson
11 to present our views in the matter.
12 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President, if I could just indicate that
13 the examination which is the subject of the 92 ter is approximately two
14 hours and 50 minutes of direct examination.
15 JUDGE KWON: We observed how he spent one hour or more than an
16 hour on what matters.
17 MR. ROBINSON: Well, what has been admitted already as direct
18 examination is far in excess of what you've allowed him, and there was
19 one hour of cross-examination in that case, and that was the case of an
20 individual who had nothing to do with the events in this municipality
21 other than at one specific location, and didn't involve any of the events
22 that Dr. Karadzic has been questioning this witness on. So he ought to
23 at least have the same amount of time as the direct examination which,
24 when added to Mr. Gaynor's half an hour, is about three hours.
25 JUDGE KWON: Number 1, that submission was too late. It should
1 have been raised at the outset. And I don't see any good reason to
2 extend the time. But we will consult.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 MR. KARADZIC: Excellencies, initially we asked for ten hours.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, you have 15 minutes to conclude your
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I just wanted to remind
9 you that initially we had asked for ten hours.
10 JUDGE KWON: I won't repeat our ruling, we gave it to you, in
11 relation to how we come to the conclusion as to the proper time for your
12 cross-examination. Just get on with it, please.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Witness, is it correct that this man Dida was well -- liked to
15 threaten, to say that he would kill the refugees and you, and that he had
16 to be held back by Vlado and Krnojelac, and that Krnojelac said that was
17 an order, that he should leave the refugees alone?
18 A. Dida wanted to kill the refugees at 3.00 a.m., 3.00 at night,
19 because they had failed to pay him something that was due him, and he
20 wanted call up Vojvoda, however, Vlado prevailed, whether it was his
21 cousin or brother or what, not to call him because he would have
22 problems, and then the chief, Milorad, told me that he mustn't do that to
23 the refugees because there would be terrible problems if that were to
25 Q. And he also threatened you, said he would kill you, and he was
1 prevented in doing so, once again, by someone?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. That someone was Krnojelac, wasn't it?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you. And he didn't kill any of the refugees, did he?
6 A. Thanks to Krnojelac, who found a method of dissuading him. He
7 talked to him, he told him not to call up Vojvoda, and he said that --
8 and somehow he managed to send the women and children to the KP Dom and
9 to protect them. How he managed to do that, I don't know, but later on
10 those people left, except for the men, that is. The women and children
11 were allowed to go but not the men. Krnojelac told a young man, I knew
13 Q. So they were sent to the KP Dom for one night to save them from
14 Dida's intentions; is that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Then they ordered the White Eagles to leave Foca; right?
17 A. Yes, on the 15th of May, otherwise they said they would be
18 considered as war criminals, so anybody who didn't leave until the 15th
19 of May -- a United Nations letter came in, and the deadline was extended
20 to the 29th of May, but after the 29th of May everybody remaining in
21 Bosnia would be considered as a criminal of war. That's how the
22 International Tribunal would see them.
23 Q. This man Ivanic, did he link that up to the decision on the JNA's
24 withdrawal from Bosnia, and did he say that after the 15th of May,
25 anybody remaining would not be there legally?
1 A. Yes. That's right. And not only him. There were others in the
2 warehouse, there were some officers, who were from Cacak for instance and
3 from different places, Smederevo, and so on, who left. They left as
4 early as the 10th because they were told from Belgrade to withdraw. So
5 -- and that anybody who failed to withdraw, well, would suffer the fate
6 they would suffer. God help them.
7 Q. Is it true that these White Eagles threatened to set fire to
8 villages? And I think they did set fire to a Serb villages because one
9 of their members was killed, I think, and that they were quite wild and
10 their actions were unforeseeable?
11 A. When they said what their aim was, well, somebody issued orders
12 to them and said that 65 per cent of BH should be Serbian, and then the
13 soldiers linked up and they said, we will see what we are going to do
14 with the village tomorrow because one of our men was killed. And they
15 would send his body to Serbia to be buried there. And then they said
16 those Serbs will pay, they will pay for that. And then there was a
17 village, I'm not sure of the name of the village, but anyway they did set
18 fire to the village, and the people fled to Serbia.
19 Q. Thank you. So they didn't differentiate much between the Serbs
20 and Muslims, Serb houses and homesteads and Muslim households?
21 A. Well, according to the order, they were given the assignment, and
22 they were mercenaries, they were paid to carry out those assignments.
23 All they were interested in was to be paid for their assignments.
24 Q. Thank you. Now, did you manage to learn who the man behind the
25 name Vojvoda was?
1 A. No. He was called Motorola, but who he was and what he was, I
2 have absolutely no idea.
3 Q. Thank you. Now, on the 30th of April, or rather, on the 30th of
4 April, from Ustikolina you went -- moved towards Titograd, Titograd which
5 is now called Podgorica, and then further on to Belgrade; is that right?
6 A. Yes. Although this isn't important for our discussions, I did go
7 to Belgrade, yes, and I fled from Belgrade and went to Macedonia, and
8 from Macedonia I went to Turkey, and from Turkey I returned to Slovenia,
9 but they are all unimportant details as far as you're concerned.
10 Q. Thank you. Yes. But you were interrogated briefly and they were
11 interested in the arming of Muslims, the refugees from Foca and the
12 leaders of the SDA; is that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. They didn't raise an indictment against you, did they?
15 A. No, they did not. And I was supposed to go to court in Sarajevo
16 first but I didn't want to because I'd have to go through Miljevina and
17 then Ivanic ordered me to go to Belgrade, and that's how things were.
18 Q. Thank you. Do you know how many of these Elezi were killed
19 during World War II and how many were killed in this war? You mentioned
20 the Elezi as a separate entity, an entity that didn't want to listen to
21 anyone. So do you know how many of them were killed in World War II and
22 then this recent war?
23 A. I know that the partisans killed quite a lot of the Elezi during
24 World War II because -- and lots of them lost their mind through what had
25 happened, but how many in this war, I don't know. They had their command
1 at the exit to Miljevina. I saw it that night. They were in the
2 restaurant. But they were all prominent citizens in Sarajevo. Vojo
3 Maksimovic knows about that. You know about that. All this situation
4 concerning the Elezi, you were all well aware of that.
5 Q. Thank you. Now, according to your personal experience as an
6 experienced officer, to what extent did personal revenge and the history
7 of families influence the situation and what happened in Foca?
8 A. As far as the families of Foca are concerned, there would never
9 have been a war. There was just a portion of individuals. Let's take
10 Stanic as an example. He co-operated and collaborated very well with the
11 Muslims. He was on good terms with them. He was on excellent terms with
12 my brothers. Take Vojo Maksimovic, he had an excellent relationship with
13 my brother, and as a professor and a family of long standing, Muslim
14 families, Serb families, they got on very well. Just as Blagojevici in
15 the Old Town, get on well with the other Muslim families. No problem
16 there. However, certain number of extremists who -- and I say extremists
17 because they were people who couldn't resolve these problems and reach an
18 agreement by peaceful means, but resorted to fighting which was to
19 nobody's advantage, I think we would have been able to find a peaceful
20 solution. And none of this would have happened. I think there were
21 enough Serbs in Foca, old-standing Foca families, who would have found a
22 solution. Saja, there was Saja, and well, I can exclude him. But the
23 people of Foca know who these people are and which these old families are
24 and so on.
25 Q. Now, do we agree that Sahinpasic, nicknamed Saja, was rather
1 extremist and a fairly well off and able to finance a lot of those SDA
2 operations in Foca?
3 A. Well, I can't say anything for certain but Saja is a man who is
4 interested in money. Money is what he's interested in. And from a
5 green grocer, he grew to become a businessman. And in Sarajevo he had a
6 whole chain of refrigerator trucks, and so on, and you know that arms and
7 drugs yield the greatest profits. You don't need me to tell you that.
8 So just look at him and his situation. He's got a palace now. His
9 brother is a very intelligent man, one of the most intelligent men living
10 in Sarajevo. He -- but he has his own views.
11 Q. Do you agree that Saja was the owner of the paper "Vox," which
12 was published before the war and during the war?
13 A. No. I haven't heard of that, no, to be quite frank.
14 JUDGE KWON: How are these relevant to your case, Mr. Karadzic?
15 You have two minutes to conclude your cross-examination.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, I have to paint
17 the entire picture of the situation in Foca because many witnesses
18 testified to the things that happened to them and that's all. But thanks
19 to the Prosecution, there are a lot of generalised and general things
20 that he has talked about, and I can't discuss these with anybody else but
21 him because it's in his statement.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. And now one last question, witness: Did you know or do you
24 know -- well, it's half my last question: Do you know who Halid Cengic
25 and Hasan Cengic are, men from Foca?
1 A. Halid Cengic was a miller, a deputy miller, but he profiteered,
2 he was a profiteer. The other one I know by sight but I don't know much
3 about him.
4 Q. And Halid Cengic -- Hasan, his son, Hasan Cengic, he's a Muslim
5 priest and a high-ranking official of the SDA, did he appoint from the
6 main quartermaster in Visoko -- do you know that Halid Cengic in
7 August 1990 established the first units of the Patriotic League in
9 A. No, I'm not aware of that. I don't know about that. When I was
10 down there, he was an ordinary manual worker. Now, all this about the
11 SDA, I really don't know. I'm not a member of any party so I really
12 can't say. I have absolutely no idea. I was a member of the
13 League of Communists of Yugoslavia. I was never excluded from the league
14 so I'm -- I remain a member.
15 Q. Did you work in Visoko, in logistics?
16 A. No, I didn't.
17 Q. All right. Thank you.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, we would need
19 more time, not because of the witness but because of the OTP which
20 expands, which broadens the issues with every witness. They give the
21 entire history of the conflict, whereas the witness knows only of one
22 part of it.
23 JUDGE KWON: I think we dealt with these issues. You are minded
24 to tender 1D4260. Should we go into private session briefly?
25 [Private session]
11 Page 18895 redacted. Private session.
4 [Open session]
5 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Gaynor, you have redirect examination?
6 MR. GAYNOR: I do, Mr. President, on simply one point.
7 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
8 Re-examination by Mr. Gaynor:
9 Q. Mr. Witness, the point is the Serb who sought shelter in your
10 barracks. Today at page 47, Mr. Karadzic put a question to you:
11 "Were there any Serbs who had sought shelter in your barracks or
12 was it just Muslims?
13 In your answer you said:
14 "Among the first group of refugees, there was a Serb. He was a
15 relative of a school friend of mine, Stojan. His name was Ivan. And he
16 was among the first ones to arrive. He remained there the entire" --
17 A. Ljuban.
18 Q. That man Ljuban, do you know his surname?
19 A. Blagojevic.
20 Q. Is he still alive?
21 A. I don't know that. He was taken together with -- or rather, when
22 the barracks was taken, he was taken together with us in a car.
23 Q. Did you ever have a conversation with his brother after these
24 events, while you were at KP Dom?
25 A. No. I only saw him for a moment, and he was surprised to see me
1 in Velecevo. That's all there was there. We never saw each other
2 afterwards. I never saw him after the war.
3 Q. Perhaps, could you confirm for me, yes or no, whether there was a
4 Serb who took refuge with the Muslim refugees because he was helping
5 Muslims in Foca?
6 A. Yes, yes.
7 Q. Do you recall what happened to that Serb?
8 A. He was also arrested.
9 Q. Do you know if he is still alive?
10 A. I don't know.
11 MR. GAYNOR: Very well. I won't pursue the matter, Your Honours.
12 No further questions in redirect.
13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, sir. That concludes your evidence at the
14 Tribunal. On behalf of this Chamber, as well as the Tribunal as a whole,
15 I'd like to thank you for your coming to The Hague to give it. Now, you
16 are free to go. Please have a safe journey back home.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The Defence is also very grateful
19 to you.
20 JUDGE KWON: We will rise together. We will take a break for
21 half an hour and resume at 20 past 5.00.
22 [The witness withdrew]
23 --- Recess taken at 4.51 p.m.
24 --- On resuming at 5.25 p.m.
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Robinson.
1 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, thank you, Mr. President. First, we would
2 like to introduce Marko Mrkonjic who has been working as an intern with
3 our Case Managers, and today is his last day with our team so I would
4 like to introduce him to you.
5 Mr. President, the next issue we would like to raise involves the
6 time for cross-examination of this next witness. I'm a little surprised
7 that you thought it was untimely to raise the issue when we were at the
8 end of the allotted time for cross-examination because usually you're
9 telling us you want to wait and see and how things develop, but since --
10 if you prefer to hear the submissions now we would like to ask for more
11 time for cross-examination of this next witness. And I can -- if you're
12 ready to hear that, I can go into that right now.
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Robinson.
14 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, this witness testified in an
15 earlier trial here in the Tribunal and the direct examination took
16 approximately four hours. It's scheduled for another hour of direct
17 examination here today, for a total of five hours, plus he was
18 cross-examined for about one hour and 30 minutes on issues that are not
19 particularly important to Dr. Karadzic because they involved one
20 particular location in the municipality. And so we would ask that you --
21 you have given three hours, which is 60 per cent of the
22 cross-examination, and we basically believe that it's not fair to give
23 Dr. Karadzic less than the amount of the direct examination. For
24 cross-examination you have to not only deal with material in direct but
25 you raise issues of credibility, so in theory you need more time than for
1 direct examination. And I don't see the Prosecution getting graded on
2 performance in terms of the time for direct examination or redirect
3 examination, and it seems somewhat unfair to Dr. Karadzic to give him
4 below the time for direct examination by -- based on performance as
5 opposed to telling him when something is irrelevant and making him move
6 on to another area. Sometimes in my own experience and perhaps
7 Judge Morrison has had the same experience, sometimes you hit gold in the
8 last half hour of your cross-examination and it's, you know -- there can
9 be unproductive cross-examination and productive cross-examination but an
10 accused ought to have the time to be able to explore all the issues
11 raised by the direct examination. So we would ask that you consider
12 increasing the cross-examination time for this witness.
13 I also have another issue with respect to the witness's
14 protective measures and I would ask that we go into private session for
16 JUDGE KWON: Shall we deal with the first issue first?
17 MR. ROBINSON: Okay.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff or Mr. Tieger, would you like to
21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I think it's basically a matter
22 for the Trial Chamber to address the request and I don't really want to
23 make any submission.
24 JUDGE BAIRD: Mr. Robinson, we have listened with interest to
25 your submission, and in particular, the area where you referred to
1 touching gold. Very interesting. At the moment, we are going to let the
2 figure that we have awarded stand, but we shall most certainly consider
3 your submission, and depending on the situation we will get back to you.
4 MR. ROBINSON: Thank you very much.
5 JUDGE MORRISON: There is one issue I've dealt with before and,
6 Dr. Karadzic, I address you. I think it's worth repeating. In the first
7 place, in relation to that which Mr. Robinson said about a nugget of gold
8 in cross-examination, I do confess that I once cross-examined somebody
9 for several hours without effect and my last question to him was that he
10 was lying and he looked at the floor and he looked up at me and he said,
11 Well, just a little bit. So I felt I had got somewhere.
12 But on a much more serious note, it is, and I remind you, it's
13 not the Serbian people who are on trial in this case, it's you. And what
14 I'm about to say is intended to help rather than to be seen as any form
15 of a stricture. While of course we don't know exactly what your case is
16 until we hear it, the thrust of your case should really be focused upon
17 issues of law, in particular those that revolve around command and/or
18 superior responsibility and any allegation of any joint offending.
19 Now, I agree that sometimes it's necessary to challenge factual
20 matters in that regard, but very often it isn't, and especially if the
21 facts are not in reality contested to any significant degree. Questions
22 of historical reasoning and provocation are almost always irrelevant to
23 the case.
24 So try to make your essential legal point first in
25 cross-examination, and then any remaining time can be spent on what might
1 be thought to be secondary issues.
2 That is going to require a different focus on cross-examination
3 than you usually employ, and for that reason, I don't expect you to be
4 able to do it immediately. But my experience over the years, and
5 I suspect Mr. Robinson's, that by dealing with the really central points
6 first, you become a better cross-examiner and the cross-examination is
7 often more effective and productive, and as a byproduct it's usually much
9 MR. ROBINSON: Thank you, Judge Morrison. We have had that same
10 discussion and in Dr. Karadzic's defence, he's told me that as a literary
11 person who is a writer he's used to making a buildup and so it's a
12 different way of working for him, but I think he understands and he's
13 improved quite a bit. I just want to point out to everyone, you don't
14 hear Dr. Karadzic making comments any more. That was a constant source
15 of concern for the Chamber. And he has -- doesn't do that any more and
16 I think that he does quite a good job of learning from these -- advice
17 that he receives from the Chamber. Thank you.
18 JUDGE MORRISON: Every day in court is a learning process,
19 Mr. Robinson, even for judges, so I take that point.
20 JUDGE KWON: We will hear from you on your next point. Shall we
21 go into private session?
22 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, thank you.
23 [Private session]
11 Page 18902 redacted. Private session.
12 [Open session]
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes, let the witness be brought in.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] While we are waiting for the
15 witness, let me ask can we work in the afternoon tomorrow? I need half a
16 day to prepare.
17 JUDGE KWON: Practically, I don't think it's possible. No.
18 [The witness entered court]
19 JUDGE KWON: Good afternoon, sir.
20 Good afternoon, sir. Do you follow the proceedings in the
21 language you understand?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I haven't understood.
23 JUDGE KWON: Do you hear me in the language you understand?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
25 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. If you could take the solemn
1 declaration, please.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
3 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
4 WITNESS: KDZ-239
5 [Witness answered through interpreter]
6 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Please be seated and make yourself
8 Sir, I would like to inform you, on behalf of the Chamber, that
9 you'll be testifying today with the benefit of pseudonym, image and voice
10 distortion. This means that there will be no reference to your real name
11 or information which might reveal your identity to the public or media.
12 The audiovisual record of your testimony, which is broadcast to
13 the public, will have a distorted image, which you can see in front of
14 you on the monitor. Shall we show it to the witness now. Like this.
15 And distorted -- and image and distorted voice to ensure that your
16 identity is protected, and the transcript, while available to the public,
17 will always refer to your pseudonym, which is KDZ-239.
18 Do you understand that, sir?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.
20 JUDGE KWON: And are you -- you are happy with that?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
22 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.
23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Examination by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:
25 Q. Good afternoon, sir, can you hear me?
1 A. Good afternoon.
2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can we briefly have Exhibit 20788 displayed
3 on the screen but not broadcast, please.
4 Q. Sir, the name listed as the first, and the date below there, is
5 this your name and is it your date of birth?
6 A. Yes.
7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this is the pseudonym sheet
8 used in the Krnojelac case, and I request the admittance of this exhibit
9 and it needs to be under seal.
10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. That will be done.
11 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P3334, under seal,
12 Your Honours.
13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
14 Q. Mr. Witness, you testified before this Tribunal in the case
15 against Milorad Krnojelac on the 27th and 28th November, 2000; is that
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did you have an opportunity to review this testimony when you
19 prepared for your testimony in the current case?
20 A. I did.
21 Q. Can you affirm that the testimony accurately reflects the
22 evidence you provided to the Tribunal in the year 2000?
23 A. Yes.
24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, one correction needs to be
25 made, only to the English transcript. In line 2, on page 1187, in a
1 question, there is a reference to a Mr. Kovacic and what he said in
2 relations to Muslims. The question is not about Mr. Kovacic, as it
3 states here in the English transcript, it was about Mr. Karadzic.
4 Q. Is that correct, witness?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Mr. Witness, would you provide that same evidence to the Court if
7 questioned on the same matters here today?
8 A. Yes.
9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, with the one correction I just
10 made I would like to tender this testimony as 65 ter 20783 for admission
11 under Rule 92 ter, and it needs to be under seal because there is a
12 closed session part in it. A public version is uploaded as 65 ter
14 JUDGE KWON: We will admit both versions.
15 THE REGISTRAR: As 65 ter 20783 will be Exhibit P3335, under
16 seal, and the redacted version, 20783A will be Exhibit P3336.
17 JUDGE KWON: The pseudonym sheet we just saw earlier on contains
18 other names, names of other protected witnesses, which can be redacted?
19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The pseudonym sheet here --
20 JUDGE KWON: Shall we up load without broadcasting?
21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, it was without broadcasting and I had
22 actually asked that it be admitted under seal. The references to the
23 other witnesses refer to their names that are from the Krnojelac case,
24 and in the Krnojelac case, the witness basically refers to these numbers.
25 JUDGE KWON: So we may need them --
1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We need them here as well.
2 JUDGE KWON: -- to understand the context.
3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
4 JUDGE KWON: Very well. That will be done. We will leave it at
5 that. Thank you, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.
6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you. With the Court's permission I
7 would now read a brief summary of the witness's evidence as admitted.
8 Witness KDZ-239 lived in Foca and observed the political
9 developments before the outbreak of the conflict and heard speeches by
10 politicians of the SDS such as that Serbs can no longer live with the
12 Shortly after the attack on Foca by Serb forces, the witness was
13 arrested and first detained in the hangar of the former TO warehouse in
14 Livade and then at the Foca KP Dom prison.
15 Among the non-Serbs detained in the various hangars of the TO
16 warehouse in Livade were women and children. While detained at Livade,
17 the witness observed looting and destruction of houses inhabited by
19 While detained in the KP Dom, the witness observed the
20 mistreatment of detainees and noticed the effect the abuse and the living
21 conditions, in particular, the hangar and the coldness, had on the
22 physical and psychological health of the detainees.
23 The detainees were civilians including old and sick people and
25 Due to the living conditions and the lack of proper medical
1 treatment and care, several detainees died in the prison.
2 The witness observed the pattern of interrogations in the
3 administration building of the KP Dom. In particular, in summer 1992, he
4 saw and heard the beatings and killings of detainees.
5 Detainees had to perform forced labour in the KP Dom and outside,
6 and some were hidden from the Red Cross when it came to visit the prison.
7 The witness observed the disappearance of detainees in so-called
9 The witness had contacts with Milorad Krnojelac, the warden of
10 the KP Dom, who told him that the prison staff acted on orders from a
11 superior command. Krnojelac told him that there were detention
12 facilities in all municipalities, and the witness found this confirmed
13 after he was transferred from the Foca KP Dom to the Kula prison in 1993.
14 The witness was detained at the Kula prison for about one year,
15 and he observed that detainees were wounded and killed when being taken
16 out for forced labour.
17 Your Honour, that concludes the summary. And I have now a few
18 questions to ask in addition.
19 Can we please have the transcript of intercept 30532 on the
20 screen, please.
21 Q. And as it is coming up, witness, did you have an opportunity to
22 listen to an intercept when preparing for your testimony?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did you recognise any of the voices?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Whom did you recognise?
2 A. I recognised the voice of Miro Stanic, president of the SDS in
3 Foca, and Mr. Karadzic.
4 Q. And how familiar are you with the voice of Miro Stanic? Did you
5 know him from before the war?
6 A. Yes. I knew him well.
7 Q. And you said that he was the president of the SDS in Foca. Do
8 you know who had this position -- do you know who had this position
9 before Mr. Stanic became the president?
10 A. Yes. It was Mr. Petko Cancar.
11 Q. And looking at the intercept transcript that we have here in
12 front of you, there is in the lower part of the B/C/S version, there is a
13 reference to problems in relation to Momcilo Mandic. Do you know what
14 the problems with Mr. Mandic were in January 1992?
15 A. Yes. It was a purely private problem of Mr. Mandic's, and
16 I don't think that at that point in time it had anything to do with
17 politics. At that time he was minister of justice in Republika Srpska.
18 However --
19 Q. Thank you. Let me interrupt you here. That's actually
20 sufficient. We do not need to go into details, more details, right now.
21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can we please have the next page in both
23 In the lower part in the B/C/S, and in the English in the middle,
24 there is a reference, Dr. Karadzic is asking, "Can they introduce
25 independence in Foca?" And, "No,"-- and Stanic says, "No, they won't.
1 The journalist from the 'Spiegel' were here yesterday." And he says, "So
2 we told them we will never allow that." And then he also says, "We have
3 formed a Serb municipality and you have that information."
4 Q. Mr. Witness, do you know what this refers to?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Can you tell us?
7 A. Yes. It has to do with the decision of the SDS of BH to
8 establish a Serb Municipality of Foca.
9 Q. Yes. Thank you.
10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I request this to be MFIed
11 according to the procedure here. It's at the moment MFIed.
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
13 THE REGISTRAR: That will be MFI P3337.
14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can we please have Exhibit 65 ter 01412 on
15 the screen. And as it is coming up, it is a radio report of 14 April
16 1992, with Velibor Ostojic reporting from Foca. If you can zoom in in
17 the B/C/S on the upper part?
18 Q. Sir, when you reviewed this short report when preparing for your
19 testimony, did you find a mistake in there related to the location
20 mentioned here as Ladja?
21 A. Could that question please be repeated?
22 Q. When you look at the reference here, it is -- it says here in
23 this document, it says, in the middle, "It is continuing in Donje Polje
24 with several pockets of activity towards Ladja and Celovina." What does
25 Ladja refer to?
1 A. I think that it hasn't been recorded properly. I think the
2 proper recording would be Aladza.
3 Q. And Aladza, is that a neighbourhood?
4 A. Yes. What is meant here is a neighbourhood called Aladza but
5 then there is also this mosque in this neighbourhood called Aladza
7 Q. Mr. Witness, can you help us with the sky-scraper Mr. Ostojic is
8 talking about here? He speaks about a sky-scraper with a sniper nest.
9 Do you know where it is situated and who was living there in this
11 A. Yes. This sky-scraper was between the Aladza local commune and
12 the local commune of Donje Polje. Both Muslims and Serbs lived in it.
13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I would like to have this
14 document admitted.
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes, that will be admitted.
16 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P3338, Your Honours.
17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I would now like to have
18 Exhibit 65 ter 17234 be brought up on the screen. And as it is coming
19 up, it is a certificate dated 4th June 1992, referring to the decision of
20 the Presidency of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina to establish
21 war commissions in municipalities and the certificate refers to
22 Professor Dr. Maksimovic being appointed to state commissioner for the
23 Foca municipality.
24 Q. Witness, this is a document where someone signs on behalf of the
25 president of the Presidency, Dr. Radovan Karadzic. If you look at the
1 signature, can you read who is signing for Dr. Karadzic?
2 A. I think it was Nikola Koljevic that signed it. Nikola Koljevic,
3 in Cyrillic. For the president.
4 Q. Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Do you know Vojislav Maksimovic?
5 A. Yes, I know him well.
6 Q. Was he from Foca?
7 A. Yes. He was born in the village of Cvilin, and a bigger town
8 close to that village is Ustikolina. He was held in high regard in that
9 local commune. The majority of the population there was Muslim,
10 70 per cent. He was held in very high regard as a citizen and professor.
11 What was depressing for people from that location, from that area, were
12 Mr. Maksimovic's statements at the SDS meeting in Gorazde.
13 Q. What did he say there that depressed the people?
14 A. He said, by way of his own rhetoric, that in the previous war the
15 Drina flowed bloody, and in this war the Cehotina river would flow bloody
16 too, and that indeed came true.
17 Q. It states further here in the certificate, it says this
18 certificate shall supersede the authority previously vested in
19 Velibor Ostojic who had been given new tasks and duties.
20 Sir, do you know Velibor Ostojic also from Foca?
21 A. Yes. I know him, not as well as Maksimovic, but I do know him.
22 He was born in Celebici, 45 kilometres away from Foca. It's almost at
23 the border with Montenegro.
24 Q. Yes. Thank you.
25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I would like to have this
1 document admitted.
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
3 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P3339, Your Honours.
4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
5 Q. Mr. Witness, in the testimony in the Krnojelac case, you gave
6 quite a lot of details on the prison staff and we do not need to repeat
7 all these details. I would just like to show you one exhibit, and this
8 is number 1 -- 65 ter 14942, and can this be please on the screen. We
9 have here a decision of the Executive Board of the Foca municipality
10 related to work obligation and it is signed by Mr. Mladjenovic, who -- he
11 signs here for -- as president of the Executive Board. Do you know
12 Mr. Mladjenovic, and do you know whether he held such a position?
13 A. Yes. I know Mr. Mladjenovic. He was a professor at a school.
14 As for this position, president of the Executive Board, he held that in
15 the joint assembly of the Muslims and Serbs in Foca that had been
16 constituted on the 25th of December, 1990.
17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Looking at point 3 in this document, could
18 we please zoom in a bit on the B/C/S in particular so that the witness
19 can see it. And it says here, the Crisis Staff of the Serb Municipality
20 of Foca and the command of the JNA unit shall engage the workers from the
21 previous item if needed and required by the circumstances.
22 Q. Sir, this work obligation, how does it relate to the KP Dom
23 staff? Do you know that?
24 A. Yes. All of them, guards, policemen, it's synonymous, who worked
25 in the previous system were assigned to work there. It's called work
1 obligation here. But that does not rule out going to the front line.
2 It's a group of some 37 to 40 previous employees, people who worked as
3 policemen, that is.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I would like to have this admitted,
6 Your Honour.
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
8 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P3340, Your Honours.
9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
10 Q. Mr. Witness, you mentioned that Mr. Krnojelac and other prison
11 authorities referred to the superior command and that they would just
12 execute the orders of that superior command. As a reference, it is in
13 page 1172 of the transcript.
14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can we please, in this context, have
15 65 ter 07332 on the screen. And as it is coming up, it is a request by
16 the commander, Miro Stanic, of the command of the tactical group Foca of
17 8 May 1992, to make available rooms in the KP Dom for prisoners of war.
18 Q. Sir, can you remind us from when people were detained in the
19 KP Dom? I mean in the war situation, not before the war.
20 A. People who were detained were kept in building 1 and building 2.
21 Those were the numbers assigned to these buildings.
22 Q. And can you tell us since when, from when onwards were people
23 detained in the KP Dom?
24 A. I was transferred to the KP Dom in the evening on the
25 17th of April, 1992. As they were bringing us in, I found quite a few
1 people there from Donje Polje for the most part. This is a Muslim area
2 that is the closest to KP Dom.
3 Q. Thank you very much. It refers here in this document to
4 prisoners of war. Were you and the many other detainees in the KP Dom
5 prisoners of war?
6 A. No, no. Civilians only. They took us prisoner at our places of
7 work, in the streets, in our homes. Some people were hiding in the
8 woods, and then they found them there and brought them to the KP Dom. At
9 any rate, no one was there who had been at the front line.
10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I would like to have this
11 document admitted.
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
13 THE REGISTRAR: P3341, Your Honours.
14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can we please have Exhibit 65 ter 07665 on
15 the screen? And as it is coming up, it's a response by Mr. Krnojelac
16 complying with this request basically.
17 Q. Mr. Witness, did anything change at that time for the detainees?
18 You mentioned it was starting in April and now we have the 8th of May.
19 Does anything change at that time?
20 A. No. On the contrary, things got worse.
21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can we briefly have document P01141 on the
22 screen. It's already an exhibit in evidence, Your Honour.
23 And we have here a decision of the minister of justice,
24 Mr. Mandic, appointing Milorad Krnojelac on the 17th of July, 1992, to be
25 the warden.
1 Q. Witness, did the conditions for the detainees in any way change
2 from mid-July 1992?
3 A. No. The bad situation escalated in every way, in terms of our
4 health and survival.
5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can we please have Exhibit 65 ter 16261 on
6 the screen.
7 JUDGE KWON: In the meantime, we can admit 7665.
8 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P3342, Your Honours.
9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
10 Q. As it is here now, there is another decision of Mr. Mandic dated
11 16 December 1992, appointing Savo Todovic to acting deputy warden, and we
12 do not go into details on Savo Todovic -- it says here "Todorovic."
13 I can't read the B/C/S. There is a mistake at least in the English.
14 What does it say in the B/C/S in relation to the name of the lawyer from
15 Foca being appointed deputy warden?
16 A. Todovic, Savo.
17 Q. Yes, thank you.
18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the name is misspelled here in
19 this document.
20 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. That's noted.
21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
22 Q. And now, giving the date December 1992, did Todovic's position
23 vis-à-vis the detainees change at that time, in any way?
24 A. No. Well, this was post festum. I mean the decision came after
25 his de facto appointment.
1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I request the admission of this
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes, that will be admitted as Exhibit P3343.
4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
5 Q. Mr. Witness in your previous testimony you gave a great many
6 details on the detainees in the KP Dom and their fate. We do not go into
7 this detail again.
8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: But can we please have Exhibit 65 ter 06929
9 on the screen. And it is here already in the B/C/S. It is a note by
10 Krnojelac to the Crisis Staff of the -- of 15 May 1992, forwarding a
11 release request of a detainee Enes Zekovic.
12 Q. Sir, do you know this detainee? Was he indeed detained there and
13 then released?
14 A. Yes, yes.
15 Q. Who was he and why was he there detained?
16 A. Like everyone else, except he was a Muslim and probably he had a
17 different kind of political affiliation. He used to work for the
18 municipality of Foca before the war.
19 Q. Do you know why you were detained there?
20 A. The reasons were the same for most of us civilians, detainees.
21 Just because we were Muslims, because we had a different faith. And a
22 number also had a different political affiliation. However, an enormous
23 number of people who happened to be there were not interested in politics
24 at all or political parties. There were sick people there. They were
25 not interested in anything. They could not really orient themselves.
1 There were really quite a few people like that.
2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I request the admission of this
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes, that will be admitted.
5 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P3344, Your Honours.
6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can we please have Exhibit 65 ter 14848 on
7 the screen. And as it is coming up, it's only partly readable, but it is
8 a list of persons to be released from KP Dom, from May 1992.
9 Q. And Mr. Witness, do you know these people or some of them, and
10 were they in fact released?
11 A. Yes. I know them. And for a longish period of time, they were
12 there. The camp was officially opened on the 18th and then until the
13 5th of May, well that would be the period that they spent there. And as
14 we can see, all of them are elderly people, exhausted, full of fear.
15 They were there for a while. But when they were released, when they were
16 allowed to go home, as it says there, they were supposed to report every
17 day to the public security station of Foca.
18 Q. And at the end, it says here that they have been operatively
19 processed. We don't have the English right now here but it says so in
20 the last line. Do you know what that means "operatively processed"?
21 A. What I see on the screen is what it says down here, reasons are
22 the illness and age of all the mentioned persons, ah, yes, it does say
23 operatively processed. It's barely legible. That means that they were
24 interrogated by the police in the KP Dom.
25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I request the admission of this
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
3 THE REGISTRAR: That will be MFI P3345, Your Honours.
4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I just was told the English is
5 there now so you have an English version now in e-court.
6 JUDGE KWON: We take your word. That will be admitted.
7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you. I thought you had it.
8 Thank you. I would now like to have Exhibit 65 ter 14742 on the
9 screen, and I hope it's now there in both languages. It's another list
10 of persons to be released.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could this please be enlarged a
13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
14 Q. Yes, so we have now both languages and it is a list of people to
15 be released without interrogation, dated the 9th of May, 1992. Do you
16 know these people listed here?
17 A. Yes. I know all of them. For a long time I lived in Miljevina,
18 for over 15 years with my family. So I knew people well. And I could
19 deal with them one by one. But I would immediately like to deal with
20 person number 13.
21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, we need to go into private
22 session for that.
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes. May the Chamber move into private session.
24 [Private session]
17 [Open session]
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we are in open session.
19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
20 Q. And the other people listed here, do you know whether they are --
21 were in fact released and are alive or not?
22 A. I'm not sure that all of them were in KP Dom, that all of them
23 were brought there. I don't remember the person under number 13, but I
24 know that Subasic, Mirsad was there. He was a young man, around 25 years
25 old, and also it's not Dzanko Senad but rather two brothers, Elmedin and
1 Eldin. They were also younger people and I saw them in the KP Dom. As
2 for the others, I'm not sure. What I'm sure about though is that none of
3 them are alive nowadays and haven't been alive for a long time.
4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I would like to have this document admitted,
5 Your Honours.
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
7 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P3346, Your Honours.
8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: One more document, I would like to have
9 65 ter 14944 be brought on to the screen. And as it is coming up, it is
10 an order by commander Marko Kovac dated the 7th September 1992, related
11 to the arrest of suspects and their release.
12 Q. Do you know what this order is related to?
13 A. This is an order of the commander of the Foca Brigade,
14 Colonel Marko Kovac, who ordered the administration of KP Dom, how they
15 were to release people, under what conditions, and whom they could
17 Q. And to what type of detainees would that relate? Do you know
19 A. Yes. This pertained exclusively to civilians.
20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I request the admission of this
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
23 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P3347, Your Honours.
24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
25 Q. Sir, in your testimony, you only very briefly described the
1 situation of the detainees in Kula prison and you refer to people getting
2 wounded and killed while doing work outside of the prison, and it's at
3 the end of the testimony in chief at 1285. And you refer to a particular
4 incident in January 1994 when several people were taken out very early in
5 the morning for work and two got killed.
6 Mr. Witness, do you remember the persons, the two persons, that
7 were killed?
8 A. Yes, yes. I can say that -- I can say the names of those people,
9 or I can tell you where they were from.
10 Q. Please tell us the names and also where they were from.
11 A. One of those who were killed was Mesudin Smaic. And the other
12 was a younger person from the village of Grapska. I can't remember his
13 first or last name. However, he was an artisan, and he worked at the
14 chicken farm in Kula because in Kula, I found a number of prisoners from
15 Doboj, Banja Luka, Grapska, from the camps around Sarajevo and Pale. And
16 this is what confirmed the statement of Milorad on the 10th of June when
17 he talked to me, namely that there were camps throughout
18 Bosnia-Herzegovina under the control of Serb forces. At the end, he told
19 me, We don't know what to do now.
20 Q. And this person Mesudin Smaic, where -- when did he arrive in the
21 Kula prison, and how?
22 A. Mesudin Smaic and his brother Hasudin Smaic arrived after a
23 complete ethnic cleansing in the municipality of Rogatica. They arrived
24 in a larger group, in two or three buses. They entered the compound of
25 the Kula camp. There were a number of elderly people there, women and
1 some five or six children.
2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this concludes the
3 examination-in-chief. I request the admission of the associated exhibits
4 listed in the first table of the appendix to the 92 ter notification.
5 Some of them need to be under seal, and I have indicated this in the
6 notification. There is one particular document, and that is item 23242,
7 the schedule C to the Krnojelac indictment. It is tendered only for
8 reference purpose, as the witness refers to this throughout his testimony
9 to identify particular victims. It would be easier if that would just be
10 admitted for reference purposes.
11 JUDGE KWON: Do you have any objection, Mr. Robinson?
12 MR. ROBINSON: No, Mr. President.
13 JUDGE KWON: I think we admitted the pseudonym sheet already.
14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, that's correct.
15 JUDGE KWON: And there are some photo documentation which is
16 referred to as 65 ter number 11289.
17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
18 JUDGE KWON: I'm not sure if that has been uploaded in e-court.
19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, it has been uploaded in e-court.
20 JUDGE KWON: I couldn't see it. Could you check it now?
21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: At least the ones that are --
22 JUDGE KWON: Shall we upload it [overlapping speakers] ...
23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, it's a huge documentation and only a
24 few photos are --
25 JUDGE KWON: I get the signal from Mr. Reid now.
1 I take it there should be no problem, but in relation to 16183,
2 I'm afraid whether the witness had said anything in relation to this
3 document. All I can read from the transcript was just the witness was
4 shown this document.
5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I thought he has commented on this, but we
6 can, of course, show it to him now briefly.
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes, let's do that.
8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, and it cannot be broadcast.
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can we please have 16183 on the screen. And
11 it is an ICRC document.
12 Q. Sir, if you look at this document, is it -- this relates to you.
13 Don't read anything from it, in particular not the name. It's related to
14 your detention time. Can you please comment on this? It's referring to,
15 in particular, the details on Kula.
16 A. I have before me a certificate of the International Committee of
17 the Red Cross, which speaks of the period of my detention in the camps in
18 Foca and Kula. Is this enough for you? I can also tell you that there
19 are some items that are not correct there.
20 JUDGE KWON: That's sufficient, sir. We will admit it under
22 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P3348, under seal, Your Honours.
23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, that concludes the
25 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Other associated exhibits will be admit
1 the and given numbers in due course and some should remain under seal, as
3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE KWON: Sir, you will be further asked by Mr. Karadzic in
5 his cross-examination.
6 Yes, Mr. Karadzic, can you start?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, your Excellencies, thank you.
8 JUDGE KWON: Have in mind the Chamber is of the view that at the
9 moment three hours would be sufficient for your cross.
10 MR. ROBINSON: Not all today. I think seeing the witness looking
11 at his watch he can be assured that he won't be here for another three
12 hours today.
13 JUDGE KWON: We will adjourn at 7.00, sir, and then we will
14 continue tomorrow morning.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If we may briefly go into private
16 session, please.
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
18 [Private session]
7 [Open session]
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we are now in open session.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Witness, while it's still fresh in our minds, I would like to
11 clarify a couple of points from today's examination-in-chief. I would
12 kindly ask you, and I'm also reminding myself, to make breaks between
13 question and answer because everything we say is being interpreted and we
14 speak the same language so it could present a problem.
15 A. I shall try.
16 Q. On page 79 of today's transcript, you said that you heard that
17 the Serb side or some official said that the Serbs could not live with
18 the Muslims. Did you say that indeed?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. As a member of the SDA and a member of the municipal board, were
21 you familiar with negotiations that we had at the level of the republic
22 and the level of the municipality, the negotiations between the SDS and
23 the SDA?
24 A. Partially. I don't know which aspect interests you.
25 Q. Do you agree that the starting platform of the SDA and the SDS,
1 when it came to preservation of Yugoslavia, was identical, and that that
2 was the basis for our coalition? We wanted to topple the communist
3 regime and to --
4 A. In which period of time do you say that these political parties
5 had these views?
6 Q. Before the elections.
7 JUDGE KWON: If I could give you a tip, as to how you can put a
8 pause between the question and answer, it's to watch the transcript,
9 which is moving, and when it stops, it means Mr. Karadzic's question has
10 been translated. And then when the transcript stops, then you can start
11 answering. Bear that in mind. Thank you. Do you understand? Do you
12 follow? Yes.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
14 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. I'm now referring to the period of time before the elections when
18 we agreed on the post-elections coalition and when, on the 15th of
19 January, we formed a joint assembly and joint government. Do you
20 remember that the SDA and the SDS both supported the preservation of
22 A. Yes, in the sense that within Yugoslavia, there should also be
24 Q. Then it's not true, witness, that the Serbs did not want to live
25 with the Muslims. The truth is that they didn't want to live with the
1 Muslims outside of Yugoslavia in a single unitarian Bosnia dominated by
2 Muslims; isn't that right?
3 A. That's not correct.
4 Q. Didn't we ask you to remain with us in Yugoslavia?
5 A. Yes. But not in the rump Yugoslavia. Don't forget,
6 Mr. Karadzic, or rather, you know this full well, that there are three
7 nations living in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Muslims, Serbs and Croats, and
8 that all of them need to find their own space in the country where they
10 Q. Do you remember that in June and July, there was a process
11 underway of an agreement, historic agreement, between Muslims and Serbs,
12 proposed by a man from Foca, Adil Zulfikarpasic, and professor of
13 philosophy, Filipovic? It was also supported by Mr. Izetbegovic. For
14 two months we spoke of how Serbs should give up on all regionalisations
15 and that Muslims and Bosnia should remain in Yugoslavia even in the rump
17 A. No. I don't remember any such agreement.
18 Q. Should I conclude, then, that you do not know all that well some
19 general facts about the politics in Bosnia and Herzegovina?
20 A. It wasn't my primary focus, the politics. Something else was.
21 However, I knew the basic principles that applied to Bosnia and
22 Herzegovina once Slovenia seceded and then Croatia. There was a
23 referendum and people stated in large numbers that they wanted to live in
24 an independent sovereign Bosnia-Herzegovina with three constituent
25 peoples, Muslims, Croats and Serbs, together with the others.
1 Q. Witness, I'm interested in knowing whether I should devote
2 attention to your general statements, sweeping statements, when you say
3 that the Serbs said that they couldn't live with the Muslims. Now, if we
4 call upon you to remain in Yugoslavia with us, in any variant, then that
5 is not true, it doesn't mean that we can't live with you, it's that you
6 didn't want to live with us.
7 A. Mr. Karadzic, no. What I said is a fact, and it was broadcast
8 over the local radio station, Serbian radio station in Foca, that the
9 time had come for the Serbs to settle accounts with the balijas once and
10 for all, and that the Serbs would no longer allow their ribs to be
11 broken. They will no longer allow their children to be circumcised, and
12 that the things that the hodzas did would no longer be allowed. And that
13 was broadcast over the radio.
14 Q. Now, witness, do you know about the Islamic Declaration by
15 Mr. Izetbegovic as being the basis for a future Bosnia, and do you agree
16 that the introduction of sharia law would have been unavoidable under
17 that declaration?
18 A. What declaration do you have in mind? What Islamic Declaration
19 are you referring to? When it was written, you mean?
20 Q. It was written in 1970 and Mr. Izetbegovic was tried because of
21 it in 1983, but he didn't want to give it up but published it again later
22 when I said that he should renounce it publicly. So are there two
23 Islamic Declarations or only one, the Islamic Declaration of
24 Mr. Izetbegovic?
25 A. Yes, only one Islamic Declaration. He never wrote another one, a
1 second Islamic Declaration, that you have just mentioned.
2 Q. Now, would you agree that Momcilo Mandic, on the
3 6th of January, 1992, was not the minister of justice in Republika Srpska
4 but the assistant minister of the interior in the joint government, the
5 joint ministry?
6 A. What date in January did you mention? What year was that?
7 Q. The document that was put to you on page 81 of the transcript
8 today bears the date of the 6th of January, 1992. And you identified the
9 collocutor, or rather, co-signatory, or rather, the person that was
10 mentioned that it was the minister of justice in Republika Srpska. Now,
11 do you agree that on the 6th of January, 1992, Republika Srpska was not
12 in existence so he was the assistant of the minister for crime in the
13 joint government?
14 A. No, I can't confirm that. I think he occupied the post that
15 I stated earlier on.
16 Q. Thank you. Now, would you agree -- you say -- you mentioned the
17 20th of December or somewhere thereabouts, that the Serbian Ministry
18 of -- municipality of Foca was constituted. Do you agree that it was
19 just proclaimed but came into existence and started working only in April
20 1992? Would that be right?
21 A. Let's go back for a moment to the date when the joint multi-party
22 assembly was constituted, of the Muslims and Serbs, because they were the
23 two leading ethnic groups in Foca, and that was the 25th of December,
24 1990. A year after that date it says over there -- or we see that the
25 Serbian Municipality of Foca was constituted. So the date is the same
1 but it's one year later, with all its bodies and organs.
2 Q. And would it be true that this joint municipality continued to
3 work and function right up to the 6th or 7th of April?
4 A. Yes. In formal terms, but objectively speaking, this did not
5 happen because there was constant obstruction by the Serb representatives
6 in the municipal authorities and agencies, and they carried out these
7 obstructions quite consciously, and this served the Serbian Democratic
8 Party to arm itself and prepare itself for an aggression because
9 unfortunately that's what happened. There was an aggression in April and
10 May in Bosnia-Herzegovina in a large number of municipalities during
11 those two months. And that is something that only a people who had a lot
12 of weapons could have carried out.
13 Q. Witness, may I ask you to stick to what you know 100 per cent,
14 what you witnessed yourself. Now, tell me this: This meeting in Gorazde
15 that you say Mr. Vojislav Maksimovic, a university professor, a member of
16 the academy of science said that Cehotina would flow bloody, was that
17 make meeting a public rally?
18 A. Yes, it was a public rally of the SDS.
19 Q. Was it the pre-electoral meeting?
20 A. I'm not quite sure whether it was representing the SDS parties or
21 whether it was the pre-electoral meeting because there were two rounds;
22 first of all, in Bosnia-Herzegovina you presented yourself to the people
23 as a party, and then the pre-election campaign started up.
24 Q. Thank you. Now, do you know that Mr. Vojislav Maksimovic,
25 although he was on the list, he wasn't a member of the SDS right up until
1 the spring of 1991, although he was on that ticket, but before that he
2 was not in the party, he was president of the cultural society called
4 A. No, I don't know about that and I doubt what you're saying.
5 Q. Very well. Now, what you're saying, that this eminent
6 professor - and you say he was a distinguished professor - this drastic
7 sentence of his, did anybody publish that, publicise that?
8 A. Well, yes, the media did. It was in the media.
9 Q. Well, can you help the Prosecution out and get us a copy of that?
10 A. Well, it's up to the Prosecution to do that.
11 Q. Thank you. Now, on page 86 of today's transcript, mention was
12 made of work obligations. Do you agree that a work obligation is
13 something that was prescribed by law, the law on total national defence
14 and social self protection, and that when there is imminent danger of
15 war, those who are not up at the front must do something, do some work,
16 and the local authorities decided what the work obligation would be?
17 A. That was what it was like in the previous system, and I can't
18 remember that this document existed in the multi-party system.
19 Q. However, do you remember that all the laws that existed in the
20 old Yugoslavia in the SFRY, and were not changed and they continued to be
21 in force, so there was no legal vacuum so to speak?
22 A. Yes, that's true, most of them did continue to live on.
23 Q. Thank you. Now, can you tell us what was the army into which on
24 the 8th of May Mr. Miro Stanic was commander of the tactical group of
25 Foca? What army was that? The tactical group Foca, what army was that
1 in, part of?
2 A. They had an army, that is to say they set up the Crisis Staff,
3 and they recruited people from the SDS, from your party, and these people
4 were called, referred to, as the Serb territorials to begin with.
5 Q. Thank you. Now, do you know when the Army of Republika Srpska
6 came into being, of which I was the Supreme Commander, or rather the
8 A. I think that was in May 1992. I'm sorry, 1991.
9 Q. 1991, you say?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Very well. You're probably tired. It was 1992 when the decision
12 was made and then the army was formed afterwards. How could it have been
13 in 1991 when we still had a joint state?
14 A. Well, Mr. Karadzic, we have the attack by the Serb forces at the
15 beginning of April. Let me explain the situation to the Prosecution.
16 First of all, there was the Territorial Defence, and then from the
17 Territorial Defence -- or rather, it was transformed to become the
18 Army of Republika Srpska. Do you agree with that?
19 Q. Thank you. Just as from the Territorial Defence of the Muslim
20 forces and Croatian forces, the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina was formed,
21 right, in similar fashion?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, on the 8th of May, 1992, yes, the 8th of May, 1992, would
24 you agree that the Territorial Defence, by law, the law governing total
25 national defence and social self protection, was a formation which
1 belonged to the municipality, and the president of the municipality was
2 the political leader, the Supreme Commander, of that unit which was --
3 had this municipal character?
4 A. Mr. Karadzic, that was the case in previous documents. That's
5 what was stipulated there. But let me remind you that in Foca, and the
6 population of Foca already in May had been expelled -- it says in the
7 reports that the Serb forces took control of the whole of Foca
8 municipality by the end -- already by the end of April, and were moving
9 towards Gorazde, whereas your -- you mention the 8th of May.
10 Q. Thank you. Witness, let's clear this matter up. When you say
11 Serb forces, do you mean that they were forces composed of Serbs, or do
12 you consider that to be the Army of Republika Srpska?
13 A. Well, I mean it to be the Army of Republika Srpska.
14 Q. And the Army of Republika Srpska, did it exist before the
15 20th of May, 1992?
16 A. Well, all right, Mr. Karadzic, we are just confusing the two.
17 The Territorial Defence became the Army of Republika Srpska. This is
18 just a formal transformation. And the role of your Territorial Defence,
19 or as they were often referred to as the Serb territorials, it's the same
20 thing, the same thing as the Army of Republika Srpska as it became known
21 later on. And that's what it says in the Crisis Staff documents as well.
22 Q. Thank you. Now, witness, just a little patience. Legally
23 speaking, we have to determine whether the Law on Total National Defence
24 was changed or was the Territorial Defence the army of each municipality
25 until it was changed, and the president of the municipality, by
1 ex officio, was the president of the National Defence council, and the
2 commander of the Territorial Defence was his tactical commander?
3 A. Well, I can't con firm that.
4 Q. Can you deny it, then?
5 A. I would be closer to denying it than to confirming it because
6 according to the previous system, and the documents in the previous
7 system is one thing, and as soon as the municipal assembly of Foca was
8 formed, the Serbs carried out an obstruction. They failed to adopt an
9 agenda, nothing could get done, the whole system was paralysed. So
10 you're going very far away in saying that the Territorial Defence as a
11 joint structure had been established.
12 Q. Thank you. Do you know when the Crisis Staff of the SDA was
13 formed and when the SDS Crisis Staff was set up?
14 A. My answer would be that I don't know that exactly. I don't know
15 when the Crisis Staff was set up. I was wondering that when I was
16 captured. Now, in your document, it says quite decidedly that the
17 Crisis Staff was formed on 3 April and that it was composed of 15
18 members. Perhaps we could demonstrate that and have it shown on our
20 Q. Thank you. Now, tell us, please, how many arrested Muslims were
21 there in April, in the month of April, in those clashes? How many
22 Muslims were arrested?
23 A. Well, the figure we arrived at was that in the KP Dom of Foca
24 there were between 600 and 650 civilians incarcerated.
25 Q. Thank you. And how many Muslims lived in Foca municipality?
1 A. The number of Muslims was about 21,500 or 52 per cent of the
3 Q. Thank you. And you don't know why you were arrested although you
4 were questioned? What were you questioned about?
5 A. I was interrogated formally. I was asked whether I had any
6 weapons, nothing more than that.
7 Q. You said a moment ago that you were asked when the Crisis Staff
8 was established. Were there any other questions?
9 A. The group that captured me asked me that, but the police later
10 on, the police that came to the KP Dom to interrogate the prisoners, just
11 asked me whether I was in possession of any weapons, and before that they
12 had searched my flat. So it was just an official matter to call me in
13 for an interrogation. They already knew that I didn't.
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Mr. Karadzic, and Mr. Witness, we will stop
15 here and continue tomorrow morning at 9.00.
16 In the meantime, while you are giving your evidence, you are not
17 supposed to discuss about your testimony with anybody else.
18 Do you understand that, sir?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
20 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Please have a nice evening. 9.00
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.59 p.m.,
23 to be reconvened on Friday, the 16th day
24 of September 2011, at 9.00 a.m.