1 Wednesday, 26 October 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Good afternoon, everyone.
7 How are you, Mr. Atlija?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Good morning,
11 Excellencies -- good afternoon, Excellencies. Good afternoon to all.
12 WITNESS: IVO ATLIJA [Resumed]
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]
15 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Atlija.
16 A. Good afternoon.
17 Q. We broke off when discussing the teacher, so I did not manage to
18 get a satisfactory answer as to what was happening in Brisevo and what
19 the authorities were not supposed to know about; however, if you don't
20 have an answer to that, I would like to ask you why you did not mention
21 him in your first statements. You said that only two Serb women lived
22 there with you, but you did not mention him, you mentioned him only
24 A. I mentioned him later because he worked at Brisevo. He had an
25 apartment in Prijedor and a house in the village of Donji Rasavci. From
1 time to time he came to the house of his wife's father, because he
2 married a woman from Brisevo as well.
3 Q. Thank you. In your statements in the Brdjanin case, 11962 and
4 otherwise, you said that inter-ethnic life was almost idyllic out there.
5 How can you explain that? How can you explain why you were spying on one
6 another when it was so idyllic?
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Sutherland.
8 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I ask Mr. Karadzic not to misstate
9 the evidence. The witness didn't say that.
10 JUDGE KWON: Correct.
11 Mr. Karadzic.
12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Sorry, while I'm on the feet: Mr. Karadzic
13 said, I don't know why you don't mention him in your first statements,
14 and it was in the plural. The witness had only given one statement prior
15 to the statement that Mr. Karadzic took him to on Friday.
16 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that Mr. Atlija made a
18 statement in Croatia as well.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].
20 Q. Could you please help me with that. What was the name, HIC? Is
21 that right?
22 A. I gave my first statement at the Croatian Information Centre.
23 That's what that institution was called at the time.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. And then you gave a statement to this Court or, rather, this
1 Office of the Prosecutor; right?
2 A. I gave my second statement to the commission of the
3 US Department of State. The commission for war crimes. That also
4 happened in Croatia. And at some point in 2000, I believe, I gave a
5 statement to this Court.
6 Q. Thank you. So a total of three statements before your first
7 testimony; right?
8 A. The statement from the Croatian Information Centre was translated
9 into English and used as a basis for the statement I gave to this
10 Tribunal in 2000; whereas the one that I gave to the commission of the
11 US Department of State is something I've never seen since.
12 Q. Thank you. On page 11 of this statement to the
13 Croatian Information Centre, you said that inter-ethnic relations between
14 Serbs and Croats were absolutely fine and that you played football
15 together, and so on and so forth; however, you were asked in the Brdjanin
16 case how come, when villages, Serb, Croat, and Muslim ones, were
17 practically pure, all of them. And you said, Well, we socialised. So
18 your good relations consisted of socialising; right? Otherwise you all
19 lived in your own respective villages; right?
20 A. It is correct that the villages were almost 100 per cent
21 populated by either Serbs or Croats or Muslims. However, until the
22 beginning of these election campaigns and all of these changes in 1990,
23 there weren't any incidents. There weren't any serious incidents. There
24 weren't any major quarrels or disagreements. We played football
25 together. For example, we played music at parties in neighbouring
1 Serb-populated and Muslim-populated villages. We never paid any
2 attention to what their ethnic background was and what their religious
3 affiliation was. We thought that it didn't matter to them either.
4 Certainly it did not matter to us. The first incidents -- actually, what
5 happened was that you could see that people were not as close as they
6 used to be, when these national parties, or whatever they are called,
7 were being established during the election campaigns.
8 And now, what you said about this spying on one another, I never
9 said that. I never said that there was spying on one another. I said in
10 that statement -- or, rather, I wrote in that statement that this
11 teacher - I don't know what the verb I used in the statement was - now,
12 was it "spy"? - but I did not say that it was mutual. I did not say it
13 was both ways, that somebody was spying on us and that we were spying on
14 someone else and that it went that way. No.
15 Q. Thank you. Now, let us try to get the right order, what the
16 sequence of events was. Do you agree that it was in 1989 that the HDZ
17 was founded in Croatia?
18 A. I don't know exactly when it was established in Croatia. I'm
19 here to testify about what happened in Prijedor and in the Prijedor area
20 where I took part, where I felt this on my very own skin. I can say now
21 that I assume that that was the year when the HDZ was established in
22 Croatia, but I don't know the exact date.
23 Q. Thank you. First of all, how far away is the Croatian border
24 from Prijedor as the crow flies?
25 A. I don't know exactly, but it's not far away.
1 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that the HDZ in Croatia won the
2 election on the 20th of April, 1990?
3 A. The HDZ won the elections in Croatia in April 1990 as far as I
4 know, or, rather, as far as I can remember.
5 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that before that the HDZ had entered
6 Bosnia-Herzegovina triumphantly, the Croat areas in Bosnia-Herzegovina,
7 and that even the Bosnian Croats voted in those elections in Croatia?
8 A. I don't know about other parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina. I cannot
9 say because I was not there, simply. However, that was not the case in
10 our area. There was no HDZ, there wasn't any vote in any election in
11 Croatia, at least not we, the Croats of our area. I cannot say anything
12 about other areas because I wasn't there.
13 Q. I wasn't in Western Herzegovina either, but it was in the media.
14 There were these impressive photographs of HDZ rallies with all the
15 insignia from Croatia, with all of President Tudjman's rhetoric; don't
16 you remember all of that?
17 A. I remember that there were HDZ rallies, especially in
18 Western Herzegovina. There were such rallies in other parts of
19 Bosnia-Herzegovina too, but I cannot tell you exactly which month or
20 which year. I can also tell you with certainty that there weren't any
21 rallies that were organised in the area where I was.
22 Q. Thank you. How powerful was the Serb democratic party on the
23 20th of April, 1990, when the HDZ won in Croatia?
24 A. I am not qualified to answer that question. I don't know how
25 powerful the Serb Democratic Party was, and I don't know in what sense
1 you mean this, "powerful."
2 Q. Well, you say that before ethnic relations deteriorated in
3 Prijedor things were fine but then the political parties were
4 established. And can I tell you that the SDA and the HDZ had already
5 been established when the SDS was established. The HDZ was established
6 even a year and a half before in Croatia. So who do you ascribe this to:
7 to the SDS, or these other parties that were the first to be established,
8 that actually set the temperature, if you will, in terms of the campaign?
9 A. I'm going to repeat this once again. I testify here about what
10 happened in Bosnia-Herzegovina; whereas you keep talking to me about when
11 the HDZ was established in Croatia and you compare it to the
12 establishment of the SDS in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Whereas I am here to
13 speak about what I know had happened in Bosnia-Herzegovina. I kindly ask
14 you not to confuse what happened in Croatia and what happened in
15 Bosnia-Herzegovina. I'm not competent to answer questions about Croatia.
16 I cannot.
17 Q. Mr. Atlija, does that mean that you are going to testify only
18 about what you saw yourself personally?
19 A. In my statement, the one that I gave to this Court and the
20 statement I gave to the Croatian Information Centre, I tried to emphasise
21 what it was that I personally experienced, what it was that I personally
22 saw, and what, on the other hand, I heard from persons who experienced
23 this themselves. I always tried to make a distinction in order to avoid
24 any misunderstandings. Also, as far as the media is concerned, now
25 you're asking me about different things from Croatia and you're asking me
1 about the establishment of the HDZ in Croatia and the victory of the HDZ
2 in Croatia and so on and so forth, of course we could all see and hear
3 this in the media; however, as for the events that took place in Croatia,
4 I cannot testify about that. Once again I say, I was in Brisevo, I was
5 in the Prijedor region. I can testify about that, as I've already said.
6 I can tell you exactly what it was that I experienced, what I saw, and
7 what others told me. For example, my mother, who was also there. Also
8 my sister, my relatives, my friends. Whereas what happened in Croatia
9 was quite far away, wasn't it?
10 Q. 01905236 is the page where you promised that you would clearly
11 make a distinction between what you saw yourself and heard yourself and
12 what, on the other hand, you heard about from others. However, I'm
13 asking you whether what happened in Croatia reverberated in
14 Bosnia-Herzegovina; yes or no?
15 A. Again you're putting a question that can have a whole lot of
16 answers. That is an assumption. I assume that all of these events
17 reverberate in Bosnia-Herzegovina; however, I can also tell you that what
18 happens in America or in Bangladesh or China also reverberate in
20 Q. The same kind of reverberation?
21 A. Well, not the same intensity.
22 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, let's come to your question. Your
23 time is limited, Mr. Karadzic.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Well, this was the question: You pointed out in the Stakic trial
1 on the 3rd of July, 5551 to page 5553, you said that Serbs in March 1992
2 were in their own cafes or were returning from the front line and you
3 said: [In English] "They used to say they would never allow that part of
4 Bosnia-Herzegovina -- that part of Bosnia-Herzegovina become Croatian."
5 [Interpretation] Was that part of Bosnia-Herzegovina ever a part
6 of Croatia?
7 A. It is true that these persons who were returning from the
8 Croatian front line were saying this. They were boasting about what they
9 did in Croatia. They said that they would plant onions at the Maksimir
10 football stadium in Zagreb, and so on.
11 Q. That's not what I'm asking you. I'm asking you whether Prijedor
12 was part of Croatia, and was that during the Second World War, during
13 German occupation?
14 A. As far as I know history, Prijedor was officially part of Croatia
15 during the Second World War. But I'm telling you yet again, I'm not here
16 to testify about the Second World War. I was born almost 20 years after
17 the end of the Second World War.
18 Q. Sir, but this is your very own sentence, that the Serbs were
19 saying that they would never allow that part of Bosnia to be a part of
20 Croatia. And that is what you said by way of an accusation. You said
21 that that contributed to a worsening of relations, and I'm asking you
22 whether they had any reason for that. Did you hear Dalibor Brozovic say
23 that Croatia would defend itself at the Drina River?
24 A. What Dalibor Brozovic said and when he said it, I don't know.
25 Q. That will do. That will do. Thank you, I just asked you whether
1 you heard about this.
2 Mr. Atlija, you have already shown your partiality here. I'm
3 just putting a simple question to you: You are accusing the Serbs of
4 raising the temperature there, and I'm asking you whether there was any
5 reason for that.
6 A. If you allow me, I'll answer.
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please continue.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Where I lived and where I worked,
9 they had no reason for that. There were no threats, no military threats,
10 or any other threats by other ethnic communities. That is to say, not
11 from the Muslim community, not from the Croat community. The Croat
12 population in that area, if I can remember the census figures correctly,
13 the census that took place immediately before that, there were about
14 7.000 Croats in the municipality of Prijedor. Compared to the number of
15 Serbs who lived in that municipality, and Muslims as well, that was
16 negligible, that was tiny. So we could not be a threat to anyone.
17 Q. Thank you. Sir, you brought this up, and I'm saying to you now:
18 Before the Second World War, the ratio was even more in favour of the
19 Serbs, but nevertheless the Serbs suffered in Prijedor during the
20 Second World War at the hands of Croats; right?
21 A. What the ethnic composition of the population was before the
22 Second World War is something I don't know. I don't have the
24 Q. Thank you. Thank you.
25 JUDGE KWON: Still I'm struggling to understand the relevance of
1 these questions. Let us move on.
2 THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Sutherland.
4 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, also can Mr. Karadzic please give
5 proper transcript page cites, because I can't find what he's talking
7 JUDGE KWON: It is on page 5553, when the witness asked whether
8 he spoke to any of the Serbs that you knew about why they were carrying
9 arms, and he answered to the effect that here are the explanation that --
10 the most frequent explanation was that they only wanted to successfully
11 defend Yugoslavia and blah, blah.
12 But taken out of the context, the witness will find it very
13 difficult to follow your question. But most of all, I see the -- I doubt
14 the relevance of these line of questions.
15 Let's please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that this line of
17 questioning takes us to the main question.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Mr. Witness, you said that the Serbs took over the power in
20 Prijedor on the 30th of April. Do you know what was the immediate cause
21 for this taking over of power? Or, more specifically, are you aware of
22 the telegrams which were arriving from Sarajevo and concerned the
23 beginning of the attack against the JNA and the Serbs? There were
24 several telegrams, and the last one which was the most explicit arrived
25 on the 29th. Yes or no? If you were not aware, just tell us. Yes or
2 A. No. I'm not aware of any telegrams because simply I did not hold
3 any position nor was I in a situation to know whether anyone received any
4 telegrams or not.
5 Q. Thank you. All right. Do you know that there were long
6 negotiations about dividing the municipality into two or three parts?
7 A. Yes, I heard from my colleagues I was still working with that
8 some negotiations were being conducted. But as for the details whether
9 that concerned division or the not, that is something I couldn't tell
11 Q. Thank you. Is it true that Ljubija used to be a municipality?
12 A. I think it was.
13 Q. Thank you. Do you know that at the time when the Serbs took over
14 the power in Prijedor, the Croats, that is to say, the HDZ, took over the
15 power in Ljubija, the HDZ took over the police station? Is this
16 something you are aware of?
17 A. I don't know where you have this information from. It's not true
18 what you said. The HDZ or the Croats did not take over the police
19 station or the power in Ljubija at any moment. That is not correct.
20 Q. All right. We'll come to that. So that means you also did not
21 hear how the Crisis Staff in Prijedor advised the minority Serbs to
22 accept these authorities, to be loyal, and to remain quiet? You didn't
23 hear that?
24 A. No.
25 Q. And were you reading your local newspapers, the "Glas" and the
1 "Kozarski Vijesnik"?
2 A. Occasionally I read the "Kozarski Vjesnik."
3 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Tieger, I forgot to mention
4 that we will continue to sit pursuant to Rule 15 bis today in the absence
5 of Judge Morrison, who will join us tomorrow.
6 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. You also said that permits were necessary for non-Serbs to move
10 around. Did the Serbs need these passes as well?
11 A. Whether the Serbs needed any passes is something I do not know,
12 but I don't think the Serbs needed them.
13 Q. Yes, you said that differently in the Stakic trial. You said
14 that you didn't know. And in the Zupljanin trial you said that they did
15 not need them. Is that so?
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now please see 65 ter 35042.
17 And in that document the ERN number is 0401-0279.
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, can the witness be allowed the
19 opportunity to answer Mr. Karadzic's question if he wishes to.
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes, whether -- I'm not sure whether the witness
21 answered the last question.
22 Do you remember that? Did you say differently in the Stakic
23 trial that you didn't know, and in the Zupljanin trial you said that they
24 did not need them? Can you answer the question?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can remember, and I'll tell you
1 why I said so. In the first instance I said that I was not sure, and I
2 repeat it now that I'm not sure, but I think they did not need them,
3 because I heard from Serbs later on various answers to this question. If
4 they were armed and uniformed and were carrying rifles, then they didn't
5 need any passes. And they were almost all armed and uniformed.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. You said that in the year 2000 in the Stakic trial, and it is on
8 page 5659. However, you actually said you didn't know. And in the
9 Zupljanin case, in 16082, you said that they didn't need passes.
10 Please have a look at this document.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please zoom in. I don't
12 think that we have the appropriate translation and I don't think that
13 this is it.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Mr. Atlija, these are Croatian intercepts. The Croatian secret
16 service was listening. And please have a look at the last sentence,
17 which says: "Major Raskovic is the head of the press centre and
18 Major Celjenac threatened that he would have him shot if he did not write
19 and say what he told me and if he went around without any documents."
20 So can you see that it was very strict and that Serbs also had to
21 carry documents on them.
22 A. This document was never presented to me. I never saw anything
23 like this. This is the first time I see it. But let me repeat once
24 again: If the locals from Ljubija who were Serbs travelled to Prijedor,
25 no passes were requested. They would just board the bus and travel to
1 Prijedor. And for us non-Serbs it was not like that.
2 Q. How come that in 2002 you didn't know that and in 2010 and 2011
3 you do? How come that your memory is fresher now than it was in 2002?
4 A. My memory is always fresh, Mr. Karadzic, as much as it can be.
5 And if I didn't know something, I always said that I didn't know or that
6 I wasn't sure. But please allow me, I also talk to people. I sometimes
7 have a chance to collect a piece of information or two so that if
8 sometimes I'm not certain about something, I may be certain about that in
9 future. I may find the right answer.
10 Q. Please now tell us which Serb told you that Serbs did not need
11 any passes?
12 A. I never explicitly asked, for example, Mr. Zoran Pejic, a Serb
13 from Ljubija, Do you need a pass in order to travel to Prijedor? But I
14 will tell you now that I'm not sure how many times, 10 or 20 or more, I
15 was present when, for example, Mr. Zoran Pejic, or a Serb whose nickname
16 was Steven, I don't remember his name, or Rade Zekanovic, for example, or
17 let me not try to remember all the names, when they travelled to
18 Prijedor, they would simple board the bus and go to Prijedor. They went
19 wherever they liked or they would just go into their car and drive
20 wherever they wanted to go.
21 Q. How do you know they weren't carrying a pass in their pocket?
22 A. I did not inspect their pockets. But if someone who was not a
23 Serb wanted to travel to Prijedor or somewhere at the time, it was a
24 procedure that took hours. You couldn't simply come to the bus station,
25 board the bus, and travel somewhere.
1 Q. Thank you. We'll bring another witness to testify about that, as
2 you not know what they were carrying in their pockets.
3 So you had a chance to see the incident in Hambarine. Is it
4 correct that the war in Bosnia began, let me not say on the 3rd of March
5 when the Croatian forces attacked Brod or when they attacked Kupres on
6 the 3rd of April, but could we say that the war began on the 6th of April
7 in Bosnia?
8 A. I never said anywhere that I saw the incident in Hambarine. I
9 emphasised that I heard about the incident in Hambarine. And secondly,
10 the answer to the second part of your question: I think that the war in
11 Bosnia began when the Serbian military and paramilitary formations razed
12 to the ground the village of Ravno in Eastern Herzegovina. I don't know
13 what the date of that incident was.
14 Q. Ah-ha. So that was while Croatia was still in Yugoslavia, so it
15 was a conflict with the Yugoslav People's Army; correct? In 1991?
16 A. I have told you that unfortunately I do not know the date so I
17 cannot give you the correct answer.
18 Q. All right. So I shouldn't ask you anything about Hambarine;
19 right? You did not see that; correct?
20 A. You may ask me whatever you like, but I emphasised in my
21 statement that I did not see the incident at Hambarine but that I heard
22 about it. Let me repeat again: I emphasise that if you have read my
23 statement, the statement never says in any place that I saw personally
24 this incident.
25 Q. It took place on the 22nd of May; correct?
1 A. Yes, I think it took place in May 1992.
2 Q. Thank you. Do you know that there was an ultimatum by the police
3 that the murders of the reservists should surrender themselves? They
4 included Aziz Aliskovic, who was a policeman. Had you heard that this
5 ultimatum had been issued first and that the dead-line was moved several
7 A. The ultimatum was broadcast on the then-Radio Prijedor. However,
8 I do not agree with your formulation, who were the murderers, or whatever
9 you call them, as I do not know. And I stressed that in my statement. I
10 just know what I heard about the incident, that there was a shootout at
11 the checkpoint in Hambarine, that some people were injured. I even think
12 that no one was killed, but I'm not sure. This time I really cannot tell
13 you whether anyone was killed and on what side. I heard the ultimatum on
14 the radio because it was broadcast all the time, and they wanted
15 Aziz Aliskovic in the first place. That is correct.
16 Q. Thank you. If I tell you that there were six lads in a car - two
17 Croats and four Serbs - and that two Serbs were dead, two were seriously
18 wounded, and two were slightly wounded, so of the six people everyone was
19 hit, as I told you, does that sound familiar?
20 A. As I told you, I heard about the shootout, I heard about the
21 incident, I heard that there were injured people. I don't know if anyone
22 was dead. I'm not happy to hear that someone was, if someone was, but I
23 cannot tell you anything more with certainty because I wasn't there.
24 Q. Thank you. Did you say, because you do say that you saw the
25 attack, you say, "I saw the attack from a tall tree together with
1 Milan Buzuk," and you say that you heard about the ultimatum and so on.
2 Didn't you put it that way in your statement given to the OTP on page 5/6
3 on the 20th of October, 2000?
4 A. Mr. Karadzic, when I said that we were watching the attack on
5 Hambarine, that was something else. That was the attack which followed
6 after the ultimatum. We were on a hill-top, that is correct, we were on
7 a hill-top and we climbed a tree so that we would see better. Brisevo is
8 at an attitude of around 495 metres, almost 500 metres. These are the
9 highest hills and you can see well Prijedor and the surrounding area from
10 these hills. So that we could see the attack on Hambarine well in part.
11 But this is not about the incident. You are trying to represent that I
12 said somewhere that I saw directly the incident.
13 Q. I said the attack on Hambarine. And how far is Brisevo from
15 A. As the crow flies, it's a couple of kilometres. If you drive
16 along the road through the hills and valleys, then it's more. It's
17 perhaps about ten kilometres or so. But as the crow flies, it's just a
18 couple of kilometres.
19 Q. Do you mean two, three, four?
20 A. I think around two or three kilometres.
21 Q. Thank you. You then said that they shot at the Serbs as well;
23 A. I said that one could hear shooting from the direction of
24 Hambarine at the soldiers who were attacking Hambarine. It was just
25 infantry weapons, not heavy weapons, but one could hear the shooting;
1 that's correct.
2 Q. Thank you. As for the men who were in Hambarine, did they have a
3 choice? Were they asked to surrender their weapons and for Aliskovic to
4 surrender himself, and did they have a choice or did they decide to turn
5 Hambarine into a battle-field?
6 A. I think that the Serb side decided to turn Hambarine into a
7 battle-field, and this incident was a good excuse for the beginning. If
8 they only wanted Aziz Aliskovic and a couple of murderers, as you say, it
9 could have been resolved in another way, rather than razing a village to
10 the ground, killing many people, and just driving away many others.
11 Q. I'm not asking you that. And what you are saying is not true.
12 Something else is true. And please answer my questions. I'm asking you
13 this: whether they had any choice. And let us move on to Kozarac. Did
14 Kozarac have a choice? Was an ultimatum issued to Kozarac to surrender
15 their weapons, and was it only after that that an attack occurred? You
16 also talked about that.
17 A. As for an ultimatum for Kozarac, I didn't talk about that because
18 I don't know that. And I talked about the attack on Kozarac because you
19 can see it also, but the distance is much greater than the one to
21 Q. Thank you.
22 A. And if you would allow me: As for your question whether they had
23 any choice and whether a condition was set that they should surrender
24 their weapons, why would the Serbs have the right to put conditions to
25 others to surrender their weapons or do anything else or they would be
1 forced to do that? Why?
2 Q. Well, sir, because they were killing soldiers and civilians
3 because they wanted war. Is it clear to you that they were not attacked
4 up until the end of May? If it was the goal of the Serbs to attack them,
5 they could have attacked them on the 6th of April. Why didn't they
6 attack them? So let's leave that aside.
7 A. Mr. Karadzic, we could also say the Serbs could have attacked
8 them on the 1st of October, the 23rd of November. It's no answer, it's
9 no reason for an attack. Whether they attacked them in May or in April
10 or in June, I don't see any sense in that.
11 Q. All right. It's a sophism, so let's leave that aside. Were
12 aware of the strength of the 5th Kozara Brigade?
13 A. Before the war I was, myself, a reservist of the
14 5th Kozarac Brigade so I knew what the numerical strength in the
15 organisation and the composition of the brigade was.
16 Q. Did you respond to the -- when you were called for mobilisation
17 from the brigade, in June, I think?
18 A. No, I did not respond to these call-ups.
19 Q. Can you confirm that the fighting for Kozarac lasted between
20 seven and eight days? You spoke about that in the Stakic case on 5558 to
21 5559, pages of the transcript.
22 A. We were able to see from Brisevo what was generally going on in
23 Kozarac, that there was shooting, that houses were burning. We were able
24 to see, yes, that it went on for about seven, eight days.
25 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour.
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: What the witness actually said was: "We could
3 see houses burning and this went on for days, I think seven or eight
4 days." In the Stakic transcript at page 5558 to 5559.
5 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now have a look at
7 65 ter 18474.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Did you know whether there were any armed units in Ljubija,
10 non-Serb paramilitary units?
11 A. I don't know that there were any non-Serb paramilitary units in
12 Ljubija. The only military or paramilitary unit I knew existed in
13 Ljubija was under the command of Slobodan and Djoko Taranjac, who were
15 Q. Thank you. Look at this document, please, dated 18 May 1992. It
17 "In the local communes of Ljubija and Donja Ljubija, a unit the
18 size of a platoon armed mostly with rifles and sniper rifles, in the area
19 of Rizmanovici, Hambarine, and Biscani, there's a unit the size of a
20 company armed with rifles, mortars, and recoilless guns. In Carakovo, a
21 unit the size of a platoon armed mostly with rifles."
22 So do you see that before all these incidents armed units existed
23 in these local communes?
24 A. I first see this document now on display, written by the chief of
25 public security Drljaca, if I can recognise the signature. But at that
1 time I did not see these reports and I did not know anything about this
2 at the time.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I tender this document.
4 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Sutherland.
5 MS. SUTHERLAND: No objection, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE KWON: It will be admitted.
7 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D1816, Your Honours.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. You say that on 27 May the first attack on Brisevo occurred, and
11 it was a Croat, Nikola Juric, who was behind that attack.
12 A. I never said that Mr. Nikola Juric was behind any attack. I'm
13 asking you again not to put words in my mouth.
14 Q. It says, statement to the Croatian Information Centre made in
15 January 1993.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D04471.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. You say, on page 7:
19 [In English] "... a delegation of men from Brisevo went to
20 Rasavci and to ask why they were being attacked. The Serbs told them it
21 was a warning and that they should surrender all weapons, especially
22 Bofors. The person behind all these was a Croat called Nikola Juric."
23 A. I never said Nikola Juric was behind the attack. The attack was
24 not organised or led by Nikola Juric. And as far as we were able to
25 learn later, Nikola Juric deliberately provided wrong information.
1 Q. [Interpretation] You mean to the Serbs? The Serb forces?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you know how many Croats joined the Serbs in suppressing this
4 armed insurgency?
5 A. I don't know what kind of armed insurgency you're asking. Just
6 now you asked me about the attack on Brisevo and now you're talking about
7 the suppression of an armed insurgency.
8 Q. Let's call it crisis. This crises from end May to end July, how
9 many Croats were part of the Serb forces and part of the Serb
10 administration and the Serb leadership? How many Croats wanted to avoid
11 war and join the Serbs in these efforts? Some of them, by the way,
12 called them traitors in public; do you know that?
13 A. Now you're talking about a crisis. What happened in Brisevo was
14 not a crisis. It was terror against civilian population. It was killing
15 and massacres.
16 Q. It's up to the Trial Chamber to decide that at the end. I'm
17 asking you for now: Do you know that many Croats took the side of the
18 Serbs, such as this man Juric who you say provided wrong information to
19 the Serbs?
20 A. It's not true that many Croats were on the Serb side. There were
21 very few. What you're saying about large number of Serbs -- of Croats is
22 not true. A few of them responded to your mobilisation call-ups, went to
23 war in Croatia, and took part in these events in the area of Prijedor.
24 Q. Is it true that you said you had no weapons at first and then you
25 said you had ten to 11 hunting rifles, plus one to two pistols? You said
1 that in your statement to the OTP in 2000, pages 6 and 7. Is that
3 A. I said that at the time when the Serb units attacked Brisevo we
4 had no weapons because the weapons had been returned before that. Those
5 were the weapons of the former Territorial Defence, several M-48 rifles
6 and some hunting weapons that were properly licensed and in legal
7 possession of the people and a couple of pistols. But all that had been
8 surrendered to the then-Serb authorities or para-authorities. And the
9 attack happened after the weapons were returned. Only when the Serb
10 forces were absolutely sure that there's not a single rifle, not a single
11 pistol, not a single bullet in our village, that's when we were attacked.
12 Q. We'll see about that now. In another case, at the Croatian
13 Information Centre on the 30th of January, 1D04471, you said that you had
14 the following: five M-48 rifle, one M-47 automatic rifle, one M-48 that
15 you had obtained at the black-market --
16 A. Unlicensed.
17 Q. -- five pistols and, whatchamacallthem, carbines; right? You
18 varied your statements.
19 A. I did not vary my statements. I'll say it once again. All those
20 weapons had been returned before the attack. All the M-48s, five rifles,
21 one Russian automatic rifle, et cetera, they were returned to the
22 Taranjac brothers who led the Serb authorities then, and the hunting
23 rifles and pistols that were properly licensed were handed in in May
24 after that mortar attack. They were handed in to the Serb authorities in
1 Q. You say that first attack was a warning. In fact, you say this:
2 "There was no damage done."
3 JUDGE KWON: Before you answer, Mr. Atlija, yes, Ms. Sutherland.
4 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I'd simply ask Mr. Karadzic not to
5 misquote the witness's evidence. In his statement he says the village
6 had ... and then lists a number of weapons, and then says they were all
7 returned. They were handed over. And that's on page 7 of the English
9 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I'm just saying that he
11 said they had that many weapons. I don't have the whole statement before
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Did you say there was no damage done after that first shelling?
15 A. There was no damage to property and nobody was hurt, fortunately.
16 Q. Thank you. Further on you say that they asked you to return the
17 Bofors and you said whoever is found to have weapons will go to jail;
19 A. I believe what I said is this: The Serbian military authorities
20 from Rasavci sent us a message asking for these Bofor s that we never
21 had. And then they said they would come to our village, and with one of
22 the locals they will go door to door searching houses, and whoever is
23 found to have a weapon in the house will be taken to jail and his house
24 burned down. There was no talk about the Bofors anymore.
25 Q. Still you said that to the -- in the statement to the Croatian
1 Information Centre, 04471, and on page 7 you said the owner of whatever
2 weapon is found would be taken to jail. But as time passes, you
3 intensify your accusations against the Serbs, Mr. Atlija, isn't that
5 A. That's not true. I'm not adding to any accusations against the
6 Serbs. I'm not accusing anyone in general when I'm talking about this
7 attack on Brisevo. I mean the Serbian authorities and the Serb
8 paramilitaries who organised this, but I'm not accusing the Serbs as a
9 whole. I never accuse anyone as a whole.
10 Q. In 1993 you say the owner of whatever weapon is found will go to
11 jail and now you say they would be killed. How come your memory has
12 changed so much?
13 A. In 1993 I had no opportunity of saying anything to anyone. You
14 probably misquoted. You misquoted probably by accident. But I don't
15 have the statement before me now, and I can't read it.
16 Q. On the 30th of January, 1993, did you give a statement to the
17 Croatian Information Centre?
18 A. Yes, I did. You're right. I made a slip, not you.
19 Q. So you did speak to someone in 1993?
20 A. Yes, yes, I did. I thought the date was wrong, but it's not.
21 You are right. It was on the 30th of January, 1993.
22 Q. And then you skipped some time and go straight on to
23 24th of June. But let's go back a little. Do you remember the
24 30th of April , who attacked Prijedor? Do you know about that attack and
25 who was attacking?
1 A. 30th April, you mean 1992?
2 Q. No, 30th of May.
3 A. The 30th of May, 1992, we were able to hear shooting in Prijedor
4 from Brisevo. Later on, talking to other people we learned more. We
5 were able to hear that a small group of armed men led by Slavko Ecimovic
6 from Carakovo, or Zeger, tried to attack either the whole of Prijedor or
7 to take a part of Prijedor. I can't tell, but they were defeated,
8 captured, and killed. Slavko Ecimovic was taken to Omarska camp and
9 killed there. And after the revenge, his whole family, civilians were
10 killed, his wife, his brother, the brother's wife who was pregnant.
11 Q. Did you see that? Did you see those things you are saying?
12 A. I will answer. His children were brought to Rade -- by
13 Rado Zekanovic, a policeman, to Brisevo. All this is very viable,
14 Mr. Karadzic.
15 Q. We'll ask other witnesses about that. I want you to testify
16 about what you've seen. You did not see on TV the HDZ marching in
17 triumph throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina, and you are telling us about
18 things that you heard about.
19 A. Well, then ask me specific questions. I'm telling you what I
20 saw, but you keep trying to get me to give you answers that would suit
21 you. I'm telling you about what I lived through. And if that is not
22 convenient, I'm so sorry.
23 Q. So you don't know anything about the 30th of May, the
24 31st of May, the 1st of June? You don't know about that fighting, or you
25 don't know much. Tell us what you know.
1 A. If you want me to emphasise this, I'll emphasise it. We were
2 able to hear shooting in Prijedor from Brisevo. We were not able to see
3 it because Prijedor is a town not so close to Brisevo, so we can't see
4 what goes on there. But it's true we could hear the shooting.
5 Q. Then you talk about the next crisis, or attack, as you wish, in
6 Brisevo on the 24th of June, 1992; correct? 24 of June?
7 A. Brisevo was attacked on the 24th of July.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we look, please, at 1D4473.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Here's what it looks like seen through the eyes of the military
11 intelligence service, the 6th Partisan Brigade. I believe it's from
12 Sanski Most. Extremists, Muslim extremists are coming; preparations are
13 going on against the Serbian people for conspiracy; groups of extremists
14 are pulling out of populated areas into wooded areas; and they use
15 dugouts, they conduct training there. By night they bring food and other
16 stuff. More numerous groups are in Kurevo forest. Around
17 100 Green Berets.
18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters do not have a reference.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. In Brisevo, up to 15; in Carakovo, up to 30 extremists. And in
21 the wider area of Stara Rijeka mine, about 50 extremists, Green Berets.
22 And it says, Block enemy forces in certain places, including Atlija
23 village. Block the enemy forces and prevent them from withdrawing.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see the next page.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. The units should be given combat sets. Support to be given by a
2 mortar platoon 120 millimetres from Javorik area. Prepare them for
3 firing on Brisevo and Kurevo. Number 9, it is strictly prohibited to
4 open fire unless necessary, that is, until the enemy appears. This is
5 Colonel Basara who was rather well spoken about in this courtroom even.
6 Are you deceiving me, Mr. Atlija, or did you not know about the
7 existence of such information?
8 A. I'm not deceiving anyone, Mr. Karadzic, least of all this
9 Honourable Court. But I'm more and more inclined to believe that these
10 documents do not tell the truth. They were no military units in Brisevo.
11 I was living there at the time, and I can guarantee there were no
12 military units at the time in Brisevo except when the members of your
13 5th Krajina and 6th Kozara Brigade arrived. What this says here, it's
14 strictly prohibited to open fire until necessary, what did they consider
15 necessary? Fire was opened against women and children and men. Not a
16 single woman, child, or man was killed in Brisevo carrying weapons or
17 wearing a uniform, so you cannot convince me now that there were any
18 military units in Brisevo that offered resistance to the 6th Krajina and
19 5th Kozara Brigade.
20 Q. Did you not say that soldiers came to the village and asked who
21 was firing at them, and you said that no one was firing from there, and
22 they said all right and that there was no reason for you to worry, and
23 they just; isn't that right?
24 A. We were hiding in the basement, since it was made of concrete,
25 and we were hiding from all the shelling. Soldiers came with insignia.
1 My father and Pero Dimac left the basement, and they were shouting,
2 Why -- they were shouting, Who is firing at us? And my father answered,
3 No one is firing. See, we have no weapons. And they asked, Who is in
4 the basement? And --
5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness start
6 answering again. He is speaking too fast for interpretation.
7 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Atlija, could you repeat your answer again.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were hiding in the basement
9 because there was shelling. Ten or 12 soldiers came wearing military
10 police insignia with red bands around their sleeves. My father and
11 Pero Dimac went to the soldiers, and the soldiers were shouting, Why are
12 you firing at us? And my father answered that none of us were firing,
13 that they were the only ones who were shooting, and he said that we have
14 no weapons anyway. They asked him who is in the basement, and his answer
15 was that there were only a few women in the basement. The soldiers said
16 that he could go home, that there was no need for him to go on hiding.
17 Unfortunately he did what they said, and was killed in front of the
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted.
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D1817, Your Honours.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Mr. Witness, in the neighbouring locations that are referred to
24 here, Carakovo, Kurevo Brdo, Suma, et cetera, were there any [Realtime
25 transcript read in error "my"] military units there, were there any
1 dugouts and trenches or, rather, bunkers? Yes or no or you didn't know?
2 Just say freely whatever you want.
3 A. I always speak freely. And I'm not saying what I want, I'm
4 saying what I know. We did not know because our movement was highly
5 restricted, and I did not move about these mentioned villages.
6 Q. All right. At that point in time you didn't know that. Did you
7 find out later on? Because many of the things you are testifying about
8 here are things that you found out later on. Did you hear about the
9 infrastructure and the forces in Kurevo later?
10 A. I don't know what kind of infrastructure you're talking about.
11 But I did know, I heard later on, that from Ljubija this was organised by
12 the Taranjac brothers, or, rather, the unit that they commanded, that a
13 few times they went to carry out the so-called mopping up of Kurevo and
14 then firing could be heard from there. Personally I was not there. I
15 did not go deep into that forest at Kurevo Brdo. I could not see for
16 myself whether there were any dugouts or bunkers there.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could a correction please be made
19 here on page 28, line 20. It says "my military units." And it is not
20 "my military units." These are not my military units. These are
21 military units that belong to these local communes, Croat and Muslim
23 Very well.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Now you say that this was restricted for you, and let's see what
1 you said. They came and they were looking for certain people; right?
2 They wanted to see -- they were asking to see -- there was a Croat there,
3 a Croat; right, Baja Bijekic? Among those who had come, there was
4 Dragan Vikic, Radola Dulavic [phoen], Baja Bjegic [phoen], who was also a
5 Croat, and you say that the others were Serbs. And they were looking for
6 Jozo Buzuk, Juro Jakara, Jago Ivandic; is that right? However, they were
7 not there, so they were also looking for Joso Vajicic [phoen],
8 Vinko Mila, Vlado Marasic [phoen].
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise to the interpreters.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. They were not at home. These Croats who they were looking for,
12 they were not looking for just any Croats. They were looking for the
13 Croats that you mentioned in this statement; right?
14 A. Now you are talking about villagers who were taken to camps.
15 This was before the attack on Brisevo.
16 Q. The 24th of June, you say that they came and they were looking
17 for certain people; right?
18 A. That's right. They found some of them at their homes and they
19 picked them up in the van or bus that they came in. As for others, they
20 asked about them in front of the store in Brisevo.
21 Q. Thank you. However, they were not at home. And you say that
22 your moment was restrictive; right?
23 A. That's right. Brisevo is 9 square kilometres. So if movement
24 was restricted, that does not mean that everyone just had to be sitting
25 at their homes. They could go to the store or they could go into the
1 fields where people were still involved in agricultural work.
2 Q. You also say that some persons were told to report to the police
3 regularly; right? Were you told to report to the police?
4 A. Some were sent messages to the effect that they should come for
5 an interview. And whoever went never returned. Rado Zekanovic, a
6 policeman, asked Nedo Mlinar, a local person, about me and
7 Emilko Vidakovic; however, I did not report to the police station in
8 Ljubija and neither did Emilko. Fortunately I did not report to them.
9 Q. Thank you. You say that on the 15th of July there was this
10 quarrel with the soldiers there, and you describe this incident involving
11 a few drunken soldiers; right? Their car broke down and then they asked
12 for help, these Croats came, they offered them brandy, they got drunk,
13 and they quarrelled; right?
14 A. That is not right, Mr. Karadzic. These men who came to help,
15 because they were asked to help get the vehicle out, they were offered a
16 drink, they refused, and then they were forced to drink. They were
17 beaten, mistreated, and Milan Ivandic was cut with a screwdriver in the
19 Q. Thank you. Further on you said -- I have to skip some of these
20 things. So you heard about this incident as well and you did not see
21 anything. Who told you about this incident?
22 A. We heard about it from Milan Ivandic's brothers who were
23 participants. Unfortunately they were all killed later, Milan and his
24 two brothers.
25 Q. At one point you say that Milan Buzuk said that to you, and in
1 another place you say that it was his brother or your brother who told
2 you about that. Who said that to you exactly?
3 A. My brother was not there at any point in time. Milan Buzuk was
4 also present. Pejo Ivandic, Stipo Ivandic, Milan Ivandic. Milan Ivandic
5 was stabbed in the leg or foot. Stipo and Pejo, or his brothers, they
6 were present, and Milan Buzuk is a neighbour.
7 Q. Thank you. This lake, how far away is it from you?
8 A. You mean from the house where I lived?
9 Q. Yes, in Brisevo?
10 A. A couple of hundred metres is -- from the road that goes from
11 Brisevo to Rasavci.
12 Q. And in June you went swimming in that lake; right?
13 A. Now we're talking about the lake in Stara Rijeka?
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. Officially it belongs to Stara Rijeka. That is further away,
16 perhaps two and a half kilometres, not only a couple of hundred metres.
17 Q. So you could go to that lake and swim; it wasn't that your
18 movement was all that restricted?
19 A. If you think that two or three kilometres of freedom of movement
20 is sufficient for proper living, that is your own view. But from my
21 point of view, that is highly restrictive movement.
22 Q. So on the 24th of July in the morning, at what time did this
23 attack start, this July attack against Brisevo?
24 A. Around 3.30 in the morning. That's when the first shells
1 Q. Thank you. However, in the Zupljanin case you said that it was
2 around 4.30. 16095 is the page reference. But that doesn't really
4 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, you need to think about wrapping up
5 your cross-examination in about five minutes.
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour.
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Sutherland.
8 MS. SUTHERLAND: I don't know whether it was -- Mr. Karadzic may
9 have misspoke when the question was: "And in June you went swimming in
10 that lake; right?" If he wants to put that -- the month to Mr. Atlija
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation]
13 The question was whether in June and July, before ever this
14 attack on the 24th of July, they went swimming. And his answer was that,
15 yes, they did go swimming.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Isn't that right?
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, I cannot wrap up
19 in five minutes.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I've already answered that you
21 could get to the lake.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].
23 Q. Thank you. And you did go swimming.
24 JUDGE KWON: After having spent so much time on marginally
25 important, irrelevant questions, you can't complain about shortage of
1 your time. You have five minutes, Mr. Karadzic.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, I kindly ask that
3 you ask the Prosecution not to put marginal things into their statements.
4 I don't know what marginal is. I don't know what can be a basis for a
5 conviction. Why do they bring in such an ambitious witness who saw one
6 single killing? And that was something that happened when a man was
7 allegedly told to run and he started running and we have lots and lots of
8 information that is hearsay, twice removed. So it's not my problem.
9 JUDGE KWON: I would put questions instead of making submissions,
10 Mr. Karadzic. Please continue.
11 By the way, you have re-examination, Ms. Sutherland?
12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Not at this stage, Your Honour.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Further on you say that there were Chetniks, there are lots of
15 them. Do you call all Serbs Chetniks or were these really Chetniks that
16 you recognised by something?
17 A. I don't call all Serbs Chetniks. And I said that I do not accuse
18 or condemn an entire people or nation. I do not consider them all to be
19 the same. However, there were quite a few of them with cockades from the
20 Second World War, there were those with insignia of the White Eagles,
21 there were those with crosses with the four Serb Ss, and most of them
22 wore insignia and uniforms of the former JNA.
23 Q. Thank you. After that you talked to many families of victims;
25 A. Practically all of them.
1 Q. For what purpose?
2 A. Mr. Karadzic, these are people I spent my entire life with. And
3 it was only natural that I wanted to find out and express my condolences.
4 Quite simply to organise ourselves for the future, how to survive, what
5 do we do, how we get out of the area, who was still alive, who was
6 killed, how to bury the dead, which was not easy at all, and so on.
7 Q. Thank you. Then you collected this information from them and you
8 included this information in your statements; right? And this indirect
9 information comes from these conversations with families; right?
10 A. I tried to point out, Mr. Karadzic, what I saw myself and what I
11 stated on the basis of what I found out from conversations with third
12 persons, family members or others.
13 Q. Pero Dimac, you say, was told to run into the forest and then
14 they fired at him. And that's the only killing you saw; right?
15 A. That's the only killing I saw. And he was not told to run into
16 the forest. He was told in which direction he should run. He didn't
17 manage to take two steps. They shot him in the back of the head.
18 Q. You were nearby and you heard what they said to him?
19 A. I wasn't even 15 metres away from the spot.
20 Q. Well, you were very afraid of the Serbs if you were only
21 15 metres away from them; right?
22 A. Well, I did not have a choice. I had no opportunity to run
23 further. And, by the way, may I say that I do not fear anyone but God.
24 Q. Thank you. You said that you made your statements to groups of
25 your 12 -- 12 of your friends and then you tried to adjust these
1 statements, stream-line them?
2 A. We weren't streamlining anything. After giving statements to the
3 Croatia Information Centre, with these 12 or so survivors from Brisevo,
4 we read this statement together once again. Quite simply I wanted to
5 hear their view, I wanted to be as objective as possible, because no
6 matter how objective I tried to be when making a statement, there is
7 bound to be some subjectivity as well.
8 Q. You wanted this to be a collective thing? You wanted to be
9 rendered equal, you wanted to inform them and they inform you; right?
10 A. No, it's not a collective thing. Quite simply I wanted to hear
11 their views. Whenever one reads a statement, one can find things. When
12 we read this transcript afterwards, we will see that there will be typing
13 errors, small errors in the actual wording, and so on.
14 Q. Look at 2002 --
15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the page
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Now, look at 1196, what your answer was. I think this is the
19 Stakic case. I'm going to read it out in English so that the
20 interpretation is more correct:
21 [In English] "A great deal of what you said in that statement was
22 based upon what you had been told by other people and not your own
23 personal knowledge; correct?
24 "A. It's true that there are parts that are based on information
25 I received from other people, but in my statements here, I tried to
1 separate what I personally saw and experienced and what I heard from
2 somebody else."
3 [Interpretation] You say that you met with this group, whether
4 they were in Zagreb, these 12 people; correct?
5 A. Yes, at the time we were all in Zagreb. And as I said, and as I
6 said in the Stakic case, I'm trying, when giving statements and when I'm
7 questioned, to emphasise what I heard or saw personally and what I heard
8 from somebody else or learned from another source, and I'm doing it now.
9 JUDGE KWON: If you could give the page number again in the
10 Stakic case.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 119 --
12 JUDGE KWON: Transcript page.
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I think Mr. Karadzic is quoting
14 from the Brdjanin case if it starts "119."
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Sorry, it's from 2002. It's
16 1D4470, as I have it. And we have it under the "1D" number. Yes, you
17 are right, it's Ackerman. He is the Defence attorney. I apologise, it
18 is Brdjanin. Yes.
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: What page number?
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes. It's time for you to come to your last
21 question, Mr. Karadzic.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted.
23 JUDGE KWON: What are you talking about, Mr. Karadzic? Brdjanin
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. We also have the following
1 page where there is talk about the casualties in Brisevo, where the
2 witness said that a total of 68 persons were killed, and so on.
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, that's included in his Stakic
4 transcript. But can Mr. Karadzic just give me the page number of the
5 Brdjanin transcript that he just cited to a moment ago. The interpreters
6 didn't catch the transcript page. He started to say "119" and didn't
7 finish the page number.
8 JUDGE KWON: Do you have it, Mr. Karadzic?
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 11966. 11967. Page 40, under
10 1D4470. In e-court it's page 40. 1D4470, if you want a 1D. And the
11 transcript is 11966 and 11967.
12 JUDGE KWON: I take it there's no objection from you,
13 Ms. Sutherland.
14 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, yes. There's no point.
15 Mr. Karadzic just read to the witness what he said in the Brdjanin case.
16 The question and answer were read into the record, so I don't know why he
17 would need these two pages as an exhibit.
18 JUDGE KWON: But I don't see any harm in admitting those two
19 pages to understand the context.
20 We'll admit it.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Very well, Your Honour.
22 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit D1818, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic, your last question.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Atlija, you said that you were present during almost all
1 exhumations. When did these exhumations take place?
2 A. I think that they took place in nineteen -- I think that it was
3 the first -- the casualties who were buried in the Grosica [phoen]
4 cemetery, between Midar [phoen] and Stara Rijeka, who were exhumed. And
5 then later the casualties who were buried in the places where they were
6 killed, in fields, forests, and gardens, they were exhumed later on. I
7 don't know exactly, but I think it could have been in 1998.
8 Q. Ah-ha. So the first one took place when?
9 A. I don't know the exact year. I can't think of the exact date.
10 Q. And you say you saw or somebody told you that traces of teeth
11 could be seen on the breasts of one of the casualties; correct?
12 A. That is not correct, Mr. Karadzic. That was not during
13 exhumation. That was during the burial of the casualties when they had
14 recently been killed. And I think this was Kaja Komljen who was lying in
15 a field undressed.
16 Q. Witness, I will tell you now, because I believe we will need to
17 call you again, there will be reasons for that, you are an activist who
18 interviewed people, collected information, experience of other people,
19 the positions of other people, and then you presented that here in -- on
20 various occasions in the statements which you gave in Croatia and to the
21 Americans and also the statement to the OTP and on the several occasions
22 when you testified. So what you saw was one murder and you do not know
23 whether there were any units there but you interviewed all casualties,
24 witnesses, and you prepare yourself to be a witness activist?
25 A. No, that's not correct, Mr. Karadzic. I'm not anyone's activist.
1 I did not do any explicit interviews with anyone. I have other concerns.
2 I have to take care about my life and the life of my own family. And as
3 for the idea that you want to call me again, no problem. Whenever you
4 want me, I will place myself at the disposal of this Court.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't think that we have
7 exhausted the questioning of this witness, even though I'm an amateur,
8 for me everything that is included in a statement is dangerous for me
9 because I don't know what the Trial Chamber will focus its attention on,
10 so I would kindly ask Mr. Robinson now to say what are the reasons to
11 re-call this witness, and that will be our next motion.
12 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Karadzic.
13 Yes, Ms. Sutherland, you do not have any re-examination?
14 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Ms. Sutherland.
16 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President, before you do excuse the
17 witness, I just have one matter that I wish to bring to the Chamber's
18 attention. I think it can be done in the presence of the witness because
19 I also would be asking you to ask the witness a question about it.
20 You know that we filed our 60th motion for finding of disclosure
21 violation concerning disclosures that were made last week just prior to
22 the commencement of the cross-examination concerning a letter written by
23 the Prosecutor on behalf of seeing that the witness not be repatriated to
24 Bosnia from the country where he was living. Yesterday we received
25 another four documents, and today we have filed a supplement to that
1 motion which attaches the four documents for further consideration by the
2 Trial Chamber.
3 In addition, there's a reference to yet another document which
4 has not yet been provided to us concerning the Prosecution's efforts on
5 behalf of this witness, and so we have decided that in view of, number
6 one, the lack of complete disclosure and, number two, the lack of time,
7 that we would address that issue after the Chamber ruled, either by
8 asking that the witness be re-called or by submitting a motion for
9 admission of those documents through the bar table.
10 So I wanted to make the Chamber aware of those circumstances.
11 Thank you.
12 Excuse me, and the one thing I did -- I want just to ask the
13 witness, if the Chamber would agree, is whether or not the fact of the
14 identity of the country where he is currently residing is something that
15 should be kept confidential or whether he would have no objection to that
16 being made part of the public record. We filed our annexes all under
17 seal at this time just so that the witness could have the option of
18 telling us whether that's a matter he prefers to be confidential, but we
19 would appreciate if the Chamber could find that out from the witness.
20 Thank you.
21 JUDGE KWON: And other than that, you do not have any questions
22 to be posed to the witness in -- with respect to that matter?
23 MR. ROBINSON: No, Mr. President, I don't think we have the
24 complete information yet that would allow us to put proper questions to
25 the witness on the issue.
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Mr. Atlija, can you answer the question?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you mean the question about the
3 country in which I reside currently, I can answer that I live in the
4 Federal Republic of Germany.
5 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Then that concludes the evidence of
6 yours, Mr. Atlija. On behalf of our Chamber and the Tribunal as a whole,
7 I would like to thank you for your coming to The Hague to give it. Now
8 you are free to go.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 JUDGE KWON: But we'll rise all together. We'll take a break and
11 then we are going to hear the evidence of a protected witness. But
12 before that I take it there are some -- several administrative matters to
13 deal with in the absence of the witness. We'll take a break for
14 25 minutes and resume at quarter past 4.00.
15 [The witness withdrew]
16 --- Recess taken at 3.48 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 4.20 p.m.
18 JUDGE KWON: As indicated, there are a few matters to deal with.
19 First, let us deal with the -- start with a minor issue. It's
20 related to the motion for extension of time to respond to Rule 92 quater
21 motion. Mr. Robinson, could you confirm whether the Defence has now been
22 provided with the 15th of September, 2011, confidential decision in the
23 Tolimir case?
24 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President, we have been provided with
25 that. Thank you.
1 JUDGE KWON: And I take it then you are going to respond 14 days
2 as of today?
3 MR. ROBINSON: We'd appreciate that. I think we can get it in
4 considerably sooner than that, but to sense a matter of principle, if we
5 can have 14 days from the time we received it, it would be good.
6 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. It is so ordered.
7 And I -- there's a motion pending with respect to the protective
8 measures for the next witness, but we'll give the -- our ruling when the
9 witness is brought in in private session.
10 Other than that, there's a matter you wish to raise with the --
11 with respect to the witness after the next one.
12 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. I don't necessarily need to
13 raise it with you. I just wanted to alert you that we filed a written
14 61st notice of our -- 61st motion for a finding of disclosure violation
15 with respect to that witness, so I don't believe that it's any need to
16 discuss it at this moment. But if you could look at that, and perhaps it
17 can be responded to in the normal course, but we're asking that the
18 witness's testimony be excluded. And that was also the relief that we
19 asked for with this last witness, and you took the motion under
20 advisement. So if you proceed in the same manner, there may be no need
21 for you to re-rule on the motion before the witness is heard.
22 JUDGE KWON: I am afraid the Chamber hasn't seen your motion
23 today. Is it related to Mr. Mevludin Sejmenovic?
24 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President, it's a similar issue to that
25 with the last witness. We received just yesterday a disclosure from the
1 Prosecution that it had intervened in his residence situation by writing
2 a letter to a government, and based on that we've asked the Chamber to
3 make a finding that that what a violation of Rule 68 not to have
4 disclosed it to us earlier and asked for remedies, including exclusion of
5 the evidence of the witness and order for further disclosure.
6 JUDGE KWON: Was that the only motion that you want -- intended
7 to raise in relation to that witness?
8 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE KWON: I was told that you are minded to raise an issue
11 with respect to the way in which the witness should give his evidence.
12 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, that's also correct, and I'm sorry, I
13 completely forgot about that. We are also asking that that witness
14 testify viva voce. And if you like to be -- have me be heard on that
15 now, I'm prepared to.
16 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please.
17 MR. ROBINSON: Okay. So you have, as the 92 ter evidence, a
18 720-page transcript of the witness's testimony in the Stakic case which
19 covers subjects from A to Z. You told Dr. Karadzic last week that it's
20 not necessary in his cross-examination for him to rehearse with every
21 witness all of the different aspects to the conflict, and that's exactly
22 what this testimony by the Prosecution does. And we believe that, first
23 of all, the time you allocated for cross-examination based on that scope
24 of 92 ter evidence is very inadequate. It was four days of testimony,
25 and you've given Dr. Karadzic five hours for cross-examination. And we
1 believe that it would be more fair that the Prosecution be required to
2 lead the witness viva voce, since it has not chosen to limit the 92 ter
3 materials, and therefore the proportion of cross-examination that you
4 will allow will be more in line with the topics and the scope of the
5 witness's testimony, and that the Prosecution can then tailor its
6 viva voce examination to those matters which are truly necessary.
7 Thank you.
8 JUDGE KWON: Can I hear the view on this on the Prosecution.
9 Yes, Mr. Tieger.
10 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Mr. President. Essentially the position taken
11 by Mr. Robinson is unfounded for a number of reasons. It's factually
12 inaccurate. He doesn't assert a legitimate basis for denying the
13 admissibility of this transcript under 92 ter. And, in fact, the
14 Trial Chamber has dealt with the issue in any event. First, the citation
15 to the number of pages is extremely misleading. As the Court may already
16 be aware and as Mr. Robinson should be aware, the size of the transcript
17 was swelled enormously by the practice in that Chamber of reading out the
18 entirety of every document referred to. And as it happens, the number of
19 subjects covered by this witness, who focuses on the municipality of
20 Prijedor, is no greater than, in fact, is significantly less than that
21 covered by any number, in fact quite a number of other witnesses whose
22 evidence has properly been admitted under 92 ter.
23 Secondly, the breadth, the alleged breadth of a statement is not
24 a basis for denying admissibility under 92 ter, and it presents no reason
25 for doing so. As it happens, the Court has dealt with the alleged
1 breadth of the statement by providing a large number of cross-examination
2 hours to deal with the issues raised. Notwithstanding the fact that
3 there were days and days and days of cross-examination which are fully
4 encompassed in the amalgamated statement. This -- the amalgamated -- not
5 the amalgamated statement, in the 92 ter statement. This was a testimony
6 given before a Chamber in this Tribunal in a single case. It was
7 appropriate in that case, and it's quite appropriate in this case. It
8 would be wholly contrary to the letter and spirit of 92 ter to reject the
9 submission of the entirety of that transcript, including the extremely
10 lengthy cross-examination, without a redaction or reduction on the basis
11 of the representations made by Mr. Robinson, particularly when the Court
12 has allotted quite a number of hours for cross-examination and therefore
13 dealt with any concerns about the alleged breadth of the statement.
14 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger, you referred to the practice of that
15 Chamber. Bearing that in mind, and also given that this witness is
16 purely, if I can say so, a crime-based witness, could you not have
17 produced a succinct statement as an amalgamated statement instead of
18 tendering those 734 pages of lengthy transcript, which we should still
19 read every page of them and summarise them?
20 MR. TIEGER: The point, Mr. President -- the point on that is, I
21 mean, the documents that are appropriate can be and would be referred to
22 in an amalgamated statement in any event. They would just be referred
23 to, as they typically are, by ERN number. In this case, the length of
24 the statement is increased by the fact that you can, instead of turning
25 to the underlying document, you can see it in the transcript itself. I
1 don't think that that increases the work of the Chamber.
2 Given the -- and given the witness's position, it would have been
3 conceivable and maybe even extremely tempting for the Prosecution in the
4 Stakic case and for the Prosecution producing an amalgamated statement to
5 go into vast detail about the work of the republic assembly, the issues
6 addressed there, the interactions between participants at that level, the
7 objectives expressed by the Bosnian Serbs, and so on, but that is not
8 part of the testimony in the Stakic case, which moves rather rapidly
9 through the back-drop events - once the listing of the documents is
10 excluded - into the events, into the crime-based events.
11 So not surprisingly there are references to what was happening in
12 Prijedor prior to the attack on the Muslim civilian population, including
13 arming of Serbs and so on, but that has never been considered an improper
14 basis for the submission of a 92 ter statement. And it simply -- it's
15 simply not the case that the testimony in the Stakic case represents some
16 lengthy foray into marginal matters. And to suggest that the length of
17 the transcript indicates that is not accurate. And that's what I'm
18 trying to indicate.
19 JUDGE KWON: I tend to agree with the observation that the size
20 of the Rule 92 ter statement itself is not an obstacle for its admission,
21 but you also agree that the -- it is entirely in the discretion of the
22 Trial Chamber whether or not to admit -- or to admit the Rule 92 ter
23 statement; is it not?
24 MR. TIEGER: Well, I think there are discretionary matters
25 affecting that. I don't think it can be can or should be done
1 arbitrarily. I don't think the Court means to do that. What I'm
2 indicating to the Court is that the Prosecution has abided fully by the
3 letter and spirit of 92 ter in this case. I don't believe that such a
4 motion by Mr. Robinson would have been made if he was as familiar with
5 the transcript as I am from parsing it out. I think it's a reaction to
6 the number of pages. I think that simply means that documents which
7 normally don't consume that -- which normally aren't contained in, but
8 referred to instead, as in this Chamber, we don't read out the entirety
9 of the documents, and anyone following the transcript would be expected
10 then to go to the underlying document.
11 This is -- it is not the case here that the Prosecution has
12 improperly exploited the terms of 92 ter to include material that should
13 not be by the Court and unfairly places a burden on the participants. It
14 is the case that it simple provided the Court with a transcript that was
15 acceptable in another case and that is fully in harmony, in fact, if not
16 lesser in scope than many, many 92 ter statements or packages that have
17 previously been admitted by this Chamber. And that's why I focused on
18 the potentially misleading aspect of the number of pages, because
19 otherwise I think it would be completely apparent that this is a 92 ter
20 submission that is wholly in keeping with the practice of this Chamber
21 and the letter and spirit of 92 ter.
22 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President, if I could just reply
24 JUDGE KWON: Let me put just one question to Mr. Tieger before I
25 give the floor to you, Mr. Robinson.
1 In light of that specific practice before the previous Chamber,
2 how long would it take if the witness is led live for your
3 examination-in-chief? If you can answer the question.
4 MR. TIEGER: I don't think I'm in a position to say,
5 Mr. President, but far -- certainly longer than -- and, I would submit,
6 unfairly longer than is -- than clearly than would be consumed by the
7 92 ter, the submission, and with a degree of --
8 JUDGE KWON: But it would be shorter than five hours which we
9 allocated for the time for the cross-examination?
10 MR. TIEGER: Well, first of all, Mr. President, I would -- I
11 don't -- well, you're asking me to make a representation on -- based on
12 work that I have not yet undertaken. I'm more than satisfied that the
13 five-hour allocation is completely appropriate, in fact, generous, given
14 the inclusion of the lengthy cross-examination in the 92 ter submission.
15 And I'm also fully confident that any practitioner, even one who deems
16 himself to be amateurish, could cover all the issues raised by this
17 92 ter submission in the five hours allotted, even if he chose to tread
18 over the same ground covered by the previous cross-examination.
19 THE COURT: Thank you, Mr. Tieger.
20 Yes, Mr. Robinson.
21 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President, the one thing that I noticed
22 about this transcript in particular, apart from its length, was that it
23 wasn't limited very well to what the witness himself had experienced.
24 Unlike most of the other witnesses that we've had 92 ter statements.
25 There's a lot of discussion about politics, about the background of these
1 events, and I think that distinguishes it, more so than the length, from
2 other examinations that we had. And if we hadn't already heard from
3 Mr. Donia and Mr. Treanor and other witness, perhaps this would be a good
4 witness to ventilate all of those issues with, but my point is that at
5 this stage of the trial, to have all of those issues as part of the
6 direct examination, I think, would be wasteful and unfair given the
7 limitation on the cross-examination time.
8 And finally, with respect to the cross-examination that was done
9 on behalf of Dr. Stakic, Dr. Karadzic hasn't found that to be
10 particularly useful and particularly germane to the issues that he wishes
11 to raise, and it certainly wasn't successful, as Dr. Stakic is serving a
12 very long sentence. So he doesn't feel that he ought to be bound or in
13 any way restricted as a result of that cross-examination that was done.
14 Thank you.
15 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
16 Yes, Mr. Tieger.
17 MR. TIEGER: And I have to respectfully dispute the accuracy of
18 that submission, Mr. President. There is not, to the contrary, a great
19 deal of time or focus on politics and background. In fact, there's,
20 given the witness's position, probably less than one might expect. And
21 nothing resembling the kind of focus -- I mean, the reference of
22 Dr. Donia is extremely misleading because there's nothing resembling that
23 kind of focus. The witness talks principally about what he observed in
24 Prijedor and not about the general back-drop or context of the issues
25 that may or may not have given rise to the ultimate conflict. And to the
1 extent he comments on politics, it's focused on very concrete, specific
2 events in Prijedor, and moves through them very expeditiously.
3 But if that's Mr. Robinson's problem, if would have been far more
4 appropriate to advise the Prosecution that it -- he -- that the Defence
5 objects to very specific portions, to notify us what those portions were
6 so we could make a determination specifically of whether the
7 representation is accurate and make a determination of whether or not
8 those could or should be properly redacted. This wholesale submission is
9 belated and quite inappropriate and is an attempt to make generalised
10 representations that are inaccurate, in our submission, and translate
11 them into an attack on the entire statement, without giving the
12 Prosecution an opportunity to look at, examine, and dispute, or respond
13 to, the individualized concerns.
14 We continue to stand by our position that this was a quite
15 appropriate submission. It does not contain the broad generalised
16 political discussions that Mr. Robinson seems to be complaining about.
17 But in any event, to focus on that now without notice to us is
18 inappropriate and we should move forward with the -- with the submission.
19 If the Court ultimately determines that the number of hours
20 allocated for cross are -- turn out to be inadequate, given issues that
21 the accused properly or fairly was unable to cover, the Court can
22 respond, but that will, in my submission, not be the case.
23 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Tieger.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE KWON: We have heard -- we have heard the submissions of
1 the parties, and we'll now issue our oral ruling on the accused's
3 The Chamber notes the exceptionally voluminous amount of
4 Rule 92 ter evidence sought for admission with this witness, i.e., 734
5 pages of transcript and 31 associated exhibits covering seven scheduled
6 incidents. As a matter of fact, this led the Chamber to grant five hours
7 of cross-examination to the accused. In light of this submission heard
8 today, the Chamber considers that hearing this witness live is more
9 appropriate in terms of effective trial management. For a purely
10 crime-based witness such as this one, there was no need to present the
11 Chamber with nine days of testimony. This is typically a witness for
12 whom a much shorter statement could and should have been prepared by the
13 Prosecution if it is tendered pursuant to Rule 92 ter.
14 Thus, the Chamber orders that Mr. Mevludin Sejmenovic be heard
15 live, subject to the following decision in relation to the motion
16 referred to by Mr. Robinson.
17 Then shall we bring in the next witness.
18 Yes, Mr. Robinson.
19 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President, there's one other issue that I
20 notified your staff that I wanted to raise and that is to move to admit a
21 public version or public redacted version of an exhibit that was
22 previously admitted under seal. And I was wondering if this is a
23 convenient time to do that, or I can do that at some other time if you
24 don't want to hear it now.
25 JUDGE KWON: Could it not be done in writing, Mr. Robinson?
1 MR. ROBINSON: It could be done in writing, but I also would like
2 to read for the public record the portion that was excluded because you
3 ordered that the broadcast be redacted at the time and so it was never
4 actually made part of the public testimony of the witness.
5 JUDGE KWON: But public motion is part of public -- part of
6 the --
7 MR. ROBINSON: It is, but it would be preferable, in our view, to
8 be put in the same position as if we would have been had the document
9 been allowed to be public at the time. But if you feel that it's a waste
10 of time, then I will do it in writing.
11 JUDGE KWON: Rather than it's a waste of time, but I'm minded
12 more in saving time. So if you could file it in writing, I would
13 appreciate it.
14 MR. ROBINSON: Very well. Yes.
15 JUDGE KWON: Do we need to go into private session in order to
16 bring in the witness? But we need to draw the curtain.
17 [The witness takes the stand]
18 JUDGE KWON: Good afternoon, madam.
19 Good afternoon. Before you make the solemn declaration, there is
20 a matter I want to deal with in private session.
21 Could the Chamber move into private session.
22 [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]
23 THE REGISTRAR: We are now in private session, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber will now issue its oral ruling on the
25 accused's motion to modify protective measures. Witness KDZ080, filed on
1 18th of October, 2011, wherein the accused requests that the Chamber
2 rescind the protective measures of pseudonym, image and voice distortion
3 granted to the witness in the Brdjanin case because of public statements
4 made by the witness since then.
5 On 25th October, the Prosecution filed its response, attaching a
6 declaration from the Prosecution investigator who met with the witness on
7 21st of October. The witness informed the investigator that for a number
8 of reasons, including the current political situation in Bosnia and
9 Herzegovina, she did not agree to the recision of her protective
11 The Chamber first notes that pursuant to Rule 75(I), it consulted
12 with the sole judge remaining at the Tribunal from the Brdjanin case who
13 opined that recision of the protective measures were not warranted in the
14 present circumstances.
15 The Chamber also recalls that under Rule 75(J) the Chamber may
16 order the recision of protective measures, absent the consent of the
17 witness, in exceptional circumstances and "on the basis of a compelling
18 showing of the exigent circumstances or where a miscarriage of justice
19 would otherwise result."
20 The Chamber has carefully examined the Prosecution investigator's
21 declaration, as well as the information contained in Appendix B to the
22 response, and considers that exceptional circumstances have not been
23 shown. On the contrary, in light of the information provided about the
24 increased inter-ethnic tensions in Prijedor over the last few months, the
25 Chamber finds that the continuation of the protective measures of
1 pseudonym, image and voice distortion a warranted.
19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE KWON: Sorry, but can you move back to private session
23 [Private session]
3 [Open session]
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we are now in open session.
5 Yes, madam witness, could you kindly make the solemn declaration.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
7 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
8 WITNESS: KDZ080
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Please make yourself comfortable.
11 Since I take it that you are well aware of the fact of the
12 protective measures, I will not repeat the explanation. Do you agree?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I agree.
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
15 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
16 Examination by Ms. Edgerton:
17 Q. Witness, can you hear me in a language you understand?
18 A. I can.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MS. EDGERTON: Then could we please have 65 ter number 90289
21 called up on the screen, please. 90289.
22 Q. Do you see a document on the computer monitor in front of you?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you see your name on the document?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Is it correctly spelled?
2 A. It is.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MS. EDGERTON: Could we just have that as a Prosecution exhibit,
5 please, under seal.
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P3690 under seal, Your Honours.
8 MS. EDGERTON:
9 Q. Now, witness, you recall, do you, testifying at this Tribunal in
10 the cases of Prosecutor versus Kvocka et al. in 2000 and
11 Prosecutor versus Brdjanin et al. in 2003?
12 A. I remember that well.
13 Q. And on 21 and 22 October of this year, did representatives of
14 this Tribunal read back to you a statement amalgamating or consolidating
15 parts of that testimony into one document?
16 A. I recall that. Yes, that's true.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MS. EDGERTON: And for the record, that's 65 ter number 90288.
19 Q. Now, as a result of hearing that statement read back to you, you
20 identified a number of paragraphs where you wanted to make some
21 corrections; is that the case?
22 A. It is.
23 Q. I'll read those corrections out to you now, and perhaps you could
24 tell me at the conclusion whether I've covered all the changes you wish
25 to make.
1 First of all, in paragraph 8 you noted that the name
2 "Omer Marjanovic" should instead read "Omer Kerenovic."
3 And in that same paragraph, the name "Sead Mehmedagic" should be
4 changed to read "Esad Mehmedagic."
5 In paragraph 10, to your second answer, "They were taken to
6 Omarska concentration camp and they have not been heard of until this
7 day," you wanted to add: "Their mortal remains were found in mass graves
8 and later buried by their families."
9 In paragraph 27, instead of "and held three fingers crying," that
10 should read "and held three fingers cheering."
11 The last sentence of paragraph 37 should read "they cheered"
12 instead of "they cry out."
13 The last sentence of paragraph 41 should read "war songs" instead
14 of "war cries."
15 At paragraph 46, instead of the name "Said or Sead Burazerovic,"
16 it should be "Smail Burazerovic."
17 In paragraph 61, in your first answer, you wish to delete the
18 words "and took us out to shoot us."
19 And in paragraph 79 there was a typographical correction: The
20 word "Zazine," Z-a-z-i-n-e, should actually read "Cazin."
21 Have I covered all the important corrections you identified?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And after noting these corrections on the 22nd of October, you
24 signed that statement; correct?
25 A. Correct.
1 Q. With those corrections, are you satisfied the statement that you
2 signed is accurate to the best of your recollection?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And if I was to ask you the same questions that you were asked
5 during the Kvocka and Brdjanin trials, would you give the same answers?
6 A. Yes.
7 MS. EDGERTON: Could then the witness's amalgamated statement
8 90288 be the next Prosecution exhibit, please, under seal.
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P3691 under seal, Your Honours.
11 MS. EDGERTON:
12 Q. I'll just read a brief summary of that written evidence.
13 The witness is from the town of Prijedor. She will testify about
14 the Serb take-over of the town and the discriminatory measures against
15 non-Serbs which followed, including their forced removal by Serb forces.
16 The witness was then arrested in June 1992 and taken to Omarska camp
17 where she was held until August of that year. She gives evidence of her
18 observations and experiences in the camp and the serious maltreatment of
19 non-Serbs detained there.
20 She speaks of numbers of prisoners being beaten, humiliated, and
21 killed, including persons she recognised. This witness and others would
22 start their day counting the number of dead bodies which had been thrown
23 on the lawn around the "White House." The witness describes the living
24 conditions for women detained at Omarska and how female detainees were
25 physically and sexually assaulted by camp personnel. She talks about the
1 camp personnel, outlining its structure, and gives evidence of a visit to
2 the camp in July of 1992 by a delegation that included Radoslav Brdjanin,
3 Stojan Zupljanin, and others.
4 In August 1992, the witness was transferred to the camp at
5 Trnopolje where she also describes the conditions and situation. In
6 order to ultimately be able to leave Serb-held Prijedor, the witness had
7 to sign a document by which she pledged all her possessions to the
8 autonomous region of the Krajina.
9 And that's the summary of the written evidence, Your Honour. And
10 having concluded that, I'd like to tender those associated exhibits not
11 already entered into evidence, 65 ter 13442 and 13650. Those are the two
12 referred to in the statement which have not already been received as
13 exhibits by Your Honours.
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes, those two exhibits will be admitted.
15 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P3692 and P3693 respectively,
16 Your Honour.
17 MS. EDGERTON: I may have to address Your Honour with respect to
18 one of those, that it might be -- need to be under seal, but I'll just
19 have to take a look at the document in the next couple of minutes, if
20 that's all right.
21 JUDGE KWON: That's fine, yes, Ms. Edgerton.
22 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you. That concludes the
24 JUDGE KWON: Shall we go into private session briefly.
25 [Private session]
22 [Open session]
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes, madam witness, your previous evidence,
24 testimony, has been admitted in the form of a written statement, as you
25 have heard. So now you are -- you will be further examined --
1 cross-examined by Mr. Karadzic.
2 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
3 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
4 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Are we now in public session?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we are now in open session.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Good afternoon, Mrs. Witness.
11 A. Good afternoon.
12 Q. Can I start with your assertion that you were turned back from
13 work on the 30th of April. Where you work, do guards dismiss people from
14 the kind of position you occupied? In other words, were you dismissed or
15 were you just turned back?
16 A. I have described the event.
17 Q. [In English] Microphone, microphone.
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic?
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think the witness did not have a
20 microphone on.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What do you mean?
22 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
23 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, do you not hear the response of the
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Correct.
1 JUDGE KWON: I don't understand. Probably the technician can
2 look into the matter.
3 THE ACCUSED: I think it's been resolved.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I start speaking?
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Go ahead, please.
7 A. I described that incident in my previous testimony, I believe it
8 was the Kvocka et al. case. On the night of the 29th of April, 1992, the
9 Serbs took over the town. They toppled the legally elected authorities
10 and took control of all important institutions, including the one where I
11 worked. The first working day after that, I went to work as usual, but
12 outside the building there was a group of armed people who asked me where
13 I was going. I said, To work. They produced the list that they had.
14 And when I told them my name and surname, they said I was no longer
15 working there. They did not dismiss me, they just communicated to me
16 that I was not working there any longer.
17 Q. I will try to make my questions as precise as possible, and I
18 would appreciate it if you would give me the briefest possible answers,
19 preferably "yes" or "no."
20 As of what day were you discharged from your position?
21 A. I never got an official document from which I could see when I
22 was terminated officially.
23 Q. So formally you have not been dismissed to this day?
24 A. Well, formally speaking, I did not get it on paper.
25 Q. Do you know that everyone was told during that crisis to go back
1 home for their own safety?
2 A. Only non-Serbs. Only citizens of non-Serb ethnicity were turned
3 back from work. The Serbs continued to live and work normally.
12 A. After the take-over, persons of Serb ethnicity continued to work
13 in the institution where I had worked.
14 Q. You said "almost all." I would like to know what goes beyond
15 this "almost."
16 A. I don't know.
17 Q. Were you suspected --
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
19 MS. EDGERTON: Could I have a redaction at lines 2 and 3 on
20 page 63, please. And if we do that, it's okay to leave the question
21 immediately above in public session.
22 JUDGE KWON: Shall we go into private session briefly.
23 [Private session]
11 Pages 20389-20390 redacted. Private session.
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: We are now in open session, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE KWON: Would you like to put your question again,
13 Mr. Karadzic?
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, certainly.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. What were you questioned about?
17 A. Well, if it weren't tragic, it would truly be comical. There
18 were two interrogators, Nenad Babic and Nenad Tomdzic [phoen], that were
19 putting questions to me. For example, one of the questions was whether I
20 voted in the elections in favour of a sovereign independent
21 Bosnia-Herzegovina. (redacted)
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Did they ask you where you were staying at the time? Did they
7 ask you about the regularity of the referendum?
8 A. I don't remember that they went into that kind of detail. They
9 probably asked me. I don't know. Well, if they knew where I was
10 meeting, they were probably following me. Of course, I stayed at my
12 Q. Ah-ha, let us see what you said to the expert commission on the
13 7th of March, 1994. That was on page 3. Let me just see what I have
14 here. 1D04486. On page 3, you said that they asked you about that,
15 whether you were aware of the referendum for independent
16 Bosnia-Herzegovina had been rigged. Did they ask you that?
17 A. Probably, yes, you've just jogged my memory, yes.
18 Q. Thank you. In your municipality, who was in charge of declaring
19 referendums and votes, regular or irregular?
20 A. According to the law that was then in force, it was always the
21 president of the court that was the chairman of the elections commission.
22 Q. So it was the court, then, that had the last say; right?
23 A. No, not the court. The president of the elections commission.
24 It was the president of the court who was ex officio chairman of the
25 elections commission. It was a commission. It wasn't one man.
1 Q. And if somebody would complain, who would have the final say?
2 A. I don't know what the second instance was. I really cannot
3 remember anymore. It's been a long time. It was probably some central
4 commission either in Sarajevo or somewhere else. I really wouldn't want
5 to go into that now.
6 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, if it is convenient, the Chamber will
7 take a break now for 25 minutes.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 JUDGE KWON: We'll resume at ten to 6.00.
10 When we resume, madam witness, please bear that in mind for the
11 benefit of having complete interpretation, please put a pause between the
12 question and answer.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.
14 JUDGE KWON: 25 minutes.
15 --- Recess taken at 5.26 p.m.
16 --- On resuming at 5.53 p.m.
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
18 THE ACCUSED: Thank you, Excellency.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Talking about the take-over of Prijedor, you said that the
21 non-Serbs were ordered to wear a band around their sleeve; is that
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. Were the Serbs also wearing bands around their sleeves?
25 A. I didn't notice that.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 35042, please.
2 Your Honours, is the page which we have shown with the same
3 number acceptable, 0401279 [as interpreted], which was shown to the
4 previous witness?
5 JUDGE KWON: Let's deal with it at a later stage. Why don't we
6 concentrate on this witness now.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 0401-0276. Could I now have that,
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Now I'm going to give you an interpretation of a conversation or
11 some radio communication, and all of this was intercepted by the Croatian
12 secret service, they were listening in to all of that.
13 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Edgerton.
14 MS. EDGERTON: We've not been notified on this document,
15 Your Honour. So actually at this point an interpretation of a
16 communication is something I'd object to.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, this is a document that the
18 Prosecution put into the system. But these people in Croatia were not
19 carrying this verbatim. This is the essence, and I can read it out to
20 you, although you can read it yourself.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. So on the 30th of May, 1992 --
23 JUDGE KWON: There's an objection from the Prosecution, then you
24 should wait for the ruling.
25 There was no notice in relation to the previous witness either,
1 Ms. Edgerton. Are you in the position to answer that question? I
2 checked the notice. I didn't see that 65 ter number. Mr. Robinson can
3 help us, probably.
4 MR. ROBINSON: Actually, Mr. President, I can't, because I'm not
5 involved in that aspect of it. Perhaps I can check for a minute with
6 Dr. Karadzic and our Case Manager. Excuse me.
7 [Defence counsel confer]
8 I'm informed that there was no notice of either of those two
10 JUDGE KWON: If you could tell us the reason why you were not
11 able to notify of this document and then why it is necessary and relevant
12 to use this one with respect to this witness, Mr. Karadzic?
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, we are dead tired.
14 There isn't enough of us. And I noticed that at the very last moment
15 some kind of racial stigma is suggested. It doesn't have to be admitted,
16 but I just wanted to put this to the witness to show what all of this was
18 JUDGE KWON: But you said you wanted to tender the part you
19 showed to the previous witness. So it is not your intention to tender
20 this into evidence with respect to this witness?
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, yes, but if it cannot be
22 admitted, it doesn't matter. Then I'd just like to show it to the
23 witness. That it's not a question of racism, that it's a practical
24 thing, to mark friends as opposed to foes.
25 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber does not see sufficient reason to allow
3 you to put this document to the witness. Move on. Please move on to
4 another topic, Mr. Karadzic.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President. I think that's fair,
7 and we're not complaining about that, but I just think it's also an
8 opportune time for me to advise you that we're going to have problems
9 like this in the future. Even as of today we lost one team member
10 because of the reduction in our funding from an issue which has been
11 pending before the president and is not yet resolved. So we have
12 17 per cent less people to do the job right now that -- and particularly
13 the Case Manager job, which includes translations and uploading exhibits.
14 In addition, we have 150 hours for each employee, and all of us
15 regularly work between 225 and 250 hours per month. So the tasks that
16 are required of us by the Chamber, including giving notice of potential
17 exhibits and submitting documents in advance for translation, are very
18 difficult for us to accomplish. We'll do our best, but that's the
20 JUDGE KWON: I appreciate your evaluation that our decision was
21 fair and you're not complaining about it. Let's proceed.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. So you said that there was a take-over of power in the
25 municipality of Prijedor. Do you know that what was almost agreed upon
1 before that was to have two municipalities established, a Serb
2 municipality and a Muslim municipality?
3 A. I don't know.
4 Q. Thank you. Do you know that Mr. Cehajic went to the left bank of
5 the Sava river and tried to establish a municipality and the police in
6 Ljubija was supposed to be the Muslim MUP?
7 A. This is the first I hear of that.
8 Q. Thank you. Do you know what the main reason was for the
9 take-over on the 30th of April?
10 A. I don't.
11 Q. All right. Have you heard of the 12th of April and then the
12 17th or 18th of April, but the most important one was the 29th of April,
13 rather, that a telegram arrived on that date from the Ministry of Defence
14 and the Ministry of the Interior to start attack against the Serbs and
15 the JNA?
16 A. This is the first I hear of that.
17 Q. Thank you. Then did you hear the Serb side stating what they
18 think they should do and what others should do?
19 A. The local radio was under the control of the Serb government, and
20 the releases were terrible. They were horrifying as far as non-Serbs are
21 concerned. One of them said that the inhabitants of Prijedor who are
22 non-Serbs should put white flags on the windows and terraces of their
24 Q. We'll get to that, thank you. This is already May, right? The
25 30th of May up until the 9th of June. Now, I'm asking you when the Serb
1 side took over in Prijedor, do you remember, do you know? Did they
2 encourage the Muslim and Croat side to establish their own government in
3 their own parts of town?
4 A. No, I've never heard of this.
5 Q. Thank you. At one point you say on the 30th of May Prijedor was
6 attacked. Who was it that attacked Prijedor on the 30th of May?
7 A. I heard this. I heard that one group of people that could not
8 reconcile themselves to Prijedor becoming a Serb town and to having Serb
9 iconography all over the place, I'm referring to flags and everything
10 else, allegedly they tried to take Prijedor back to the situation that
11 prevailed before the take-over. I heard about that incursion by this
12 group of people, as you said.
13 Q. Oh, so it's a group, not a unit?
14 A. No, a very small group. Too small to oppose the armed Serb
15 paramilitaries and army in Prijedor.
16 Q. How many Serbs were killed then?
17 A. I don't know, believe me. You could not believe that radio, that
18 Serb radio, that broadcast information as suited the newly established
19 Serb authorities. Quite simply, the climate that was being created was
20 that all non-Serbs were a threat to the new Serb authorities.
21 Q. I'm afraid, madam witness, that it was the Serb people who were
22 under threat and it wasn't the Serb authority that was issuing threats.
23 And the Serbs took over because an attack was being prepared. Let us see
24 what you say in point 13. I think this is from the amalgamated
1 [In English] "After the attack on Prijedor on 30th of May, was
2 your neighbourhood then cleansed?
3 [Interpretation] That was in the Kvocka trial. And you said:
4 [In English] "It was on the 30th of May, and it began with
5 arrests taking place in my neighbourhood."
6 [Interpretation] What happened first, madam, the attack or the
8 A. Even before the attack, people who were taken away for
9 questioning. Very often I experienced my apartment being searched, my
10 identity papers checked, and so on.
11 Q. Can you please tell us whether you know that Prijedor was
12 attacked from four or five directions?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Thank you. Do you know that the groups, as you call them,
15 reached the centre and that they almost took over the building of the
16 radio, the MUP, and other institutions?
17 A. No, it's impossible that such a small group could take hold of
18 all important places and institutions in the town.
19 Q. Thank you. You know, when you talked about that in previous
20 trials, that you were marked as an extremist; is that correct?
21 A. Probably.
2 Q. Thank you. Would you agree with me that there were almost 50.000
3 Muslims in Prijedor?
4 A. I do not know the exact figures. I really don't. How many
5 Muslims there were.
6 Q. If one-fourth of them were underaged, that leaves 40.000 people,
7 and 20.000 of them would be women. Why were you the one who was singled
8 out as an extremist among them?
9 A. Well, I wonder, myself.
10 Q. Thank you. You said that it was an army with various kinds of
11 uniforms and insignia, that they were multicoloured army. What can you
12 say about that? Would you call all Serbs Chetniks or did you really
13 notice somebody who deserved to be labelled "Chetnik"?
14 A. I do not call all Serbs Chetniks. I said that among the multiple
15 colours of the uniforms there were uniforms with the Chetnik insignia.
16 Q. Thank you. In the Kvocka trial, page 4733 and 4733/34, you
17 talked about the bands, and you said that for the non-Serb population it
18 was very difficult, and you said if you wanted to go out to buy something
19 you needed to put a white band on your arm, and on the windows of houses
20 people needed to hang white flags or just white linen.
21 Do you know that it was broadcast on Radio Prijedor that those
22 who would not be fighting and in houses that no one would shoot from they
23 should mark their houses with white linen?
24 A. It wasn't like that.
25 Q. Do you know that that was the broadcast or not?
1 A. I don't know that it was formulated like that, with shooting, no.
2 Q. Thank you. Why some Muslims were not suspect at all and some
4 A. I don't know who made this assessment.
5 Q. Can you tell us whether it was correct that there was a certain
6 number of the Muslims and the Croats who went along well with the Serbs
7 and that the others called them traitors?
8 A. Very few. And who dared speak about traitors in the first place
9 at the time?
10 Q. Maybe they did that later. But would you agree with me that
11 there were many Muslims and Croats who agreed with the Serbian side about
12 the future of Bosnia and Prijedor?
13 A. I don't know. It's possible, but I wouldn't know.
16 MS. EDGERTON: Can we go into private session, please,
17 Your Honour.
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
19 [Private session]
11 Pages 20403-20405 redacted. Private session.
24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: We are now in open session, Your Honours.
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. So my question is this: Do you know that the Prijedor
3 authorities Keraterm, and once it became too small, then Omarska as well,
4 were considered by these authorities as investigation centres which were
5 used for investigations before it would be decided what to do with the
7 A. Mr. Karadzic, in investigation centres people are not tortured,
8 maltreated, and murdered. Investigation centres are something completely
10 Q. Thank you.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please have a look at P2772.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Leaving that investigation centre for Trnopolje was on the
14 3rd of August; correct?
15 A. Yes. Departure from the concentration camp Omarska to another
16 concentration camp called Trnopolje took place exactly on that day.
17 Q. Thank you. Can you please have a look at this document, which
18 says that 1446 persons were processed, for which valid documentation
19 exists and where there are elements of criminal liability, and that
20 others were transferred to a camp in Trnopolje where there are Muslims
21 who found shelter there, fleeing from the combat operation in the
22 territory of the municipality. The camp is secured by members of the
23 Army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Would you agree with
24 this official report?
25 A. I absolutely do not agree. Nothing is true there.
1 Q. If I tell you that 59 per cent of those who had been detained and
2 questioned were released and 41 per cent were sent to Manjaca and that
3 those who were sent to Manjaca is the number which makes up 41 per cent,
4 what would you say?
5 A. I do not agree with that. I would not go into this analytical
6 assessment of the percentages.
7 Oh, what is it now? I don't hear anything. We have a technical
8 problem. The microphone, it's a problem. It just stops at a certain
9 second it stops, I have no signal, and then again, once again, I have no
10 signal. I absolutely do not hear my own voice.
11 Q. If I may say, you do not have to hear your own voice. It's
12 better, because it might make you tired, if I can help you.
13 A. Thank you for your professional help.
14 Q. It's important that you hear the interpretation.
15 A. I don't hear interpretation. I absolutely do not hear
17 Q. Do you hear my voice through the head phones?
18 A. I hear your voice but again it's stopped. I can't hear you, I
19 can't hear the interpretation.
20 JUDGE KWON: We'll pause, but --
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear the Judge, yes, I can
22 hear the Judge and the interpreter clearly.
23 JUDGE KWON: I don't think we are missing any part of your
24 statement so that's -- that may be related to the protective measure of
25 distortion of your voice. So as long as you have no problem in hearing
1 us and hearing Mr. Karadzic's question, we can proceed.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right. Thank you.
3 JUDGE KWON: Thank you very much.
4 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Have you answered my question?
7 A. Well, I would like to read it, but I'm not sure if I need to.
8 You haven't asked me. I do not agree with this. I said that clearly. I
9 don't agree with your percentages, how many people were questioned, how
10 many were transferred, where. I cannot answer that.
11 Q. Thank you. Do you deny that 1446 persons were sent to Manjaca?
12 A. I don't know. I know that some people went to Manjaca, but I
13 don't know the exact number. It would be ridiculous if I would try to
14 juggle figures here with you. It would really be something not serious
15 if I were to mention any figures. Some prisoners were sent to Manjaca.
16 This is what I know. And some were sent to the camp in Trnopolje.
17 Q. Thank you. Madam, we have information about the numbers which
18 arrived to Manjaca so that the number is indisputable.
19 Can you tell us what was the specific difference, why were you
20 taken in and not somebody else? What was the "differentia
21 specifika [phoen]" for some people to be transferred to Trnopolje and
22 others to be transferred to Manjaca?
23 A. I did not determine that. How can I know what the people who
24 decided about the fate of camp inmates used as a criterion? It was
25 destiny that wanted me to survive. (redacted)
4 Q. Thank you. We'll come to that if we have time. I'm a little
5 confused by some of these things; once you were outside a SUP building,
6 another time you were outside the court before you were taken away.
7 A. I passed by the court to get to the SUP, to the public security
8 station, because the two buildings are close by. And to get to the SUP
9 building, I had to pass by the court building. And I was picked up from
10 outside the public security station before I was taken away.
11 Q. In your statements you referred to the legality of institutions
12 of Republika Srpska and Bosnia-Herzegovina. Do you believe that the
13 referendum on the independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina was legal, lawful,
14 and that it succeeded in a legal way?
15 A. I believe it was legal. It was conducted legally and most of the
16 electorate, the majority of the electorate in Bosnia-Herzegovina voted
17 for living in an independent Bosnia-Herzegovina.
18 Q. What kind of majority was required?
19 A. If I remember well, because it was a long time ago, 64 per cent
20 of the electorate voted for living in a sovereign independent
22 JUDGE KWON: Let's of move on to other topics.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Let me just say that even if that were true, it would be
25 insufficient. Only 64 per cent turned out, and 62, 63 per cent voted.
1 So it was a forcible carving of Bosnia-Herzegovina, forcible possession?
2 A. I don't agree with you on that either.
3 Q. You said - and I'll tell you where - in your statement from 1995,
4 and I'll give you the number in a second. 1D04484. Page 11. You said
5 that at the time court marshals were in place.
6 A. You know what I meant. You find yourself in the camp without any
7 charges brought against you. And whatever you're asked by the
8 interrogators, you have to confirm, you have to agree to. Always under
9 duress and usually with the application of torture and physical abuse.
10 Now, who ordered these executions and this treatment, I don't
11 know. But obviously people had to do it. But when you don't know what
12 you're accused of, what you're tried for, let alone having a chance to
13 defend yourself, and you'd have no idea what they wrote in the minutes
14 because you never get to see it. Whatever -- what are you going to call
15 it except court marshal?
16 Q. Have you ever been before the court?
17 A. I don't know. The courts were functioning at the time. Why
18 didn't they bring us detainees before the court and try us under law like
19 trials go on in this courtroom here.
20 Q. Do you agree that there is a preliminary proceeding like here, a
21 preliminary proceeding before the trial, and sometimes the trial doesn't
22 even happen?
23 A. Of course not, everywhere, and even in the former
24 Bosnia-Herzegovina, you know what the pre-indictment proceedings are
25 like. You have a criminal report, you get to see it, you know what you
1 are being suspected of, you have a right to a defence, you are remanded
2 in custody, you have the right to appeal. All that ceased to exist in
3 Omarska camp. That just did not exist.
4 Q. Let's be precise. Do you know how prisoners of war are normally
5 treated? Do you have to show them the formal decision to investigate, or
6 do you just capture them and then decide who's a criminal and who's a
7 prisoner of war?
8 A. There are conventions and rules even concerning prisoners of war
9 that govern the treatment of POWs. You don't torture them.
10 Q. We are now looking at the legal side of things. You were not
11 tried for anything or convicted. You were interrogated and released.
12 A. I was kept in the concentration camp of Omarska for about two
13 months and then I was taken to another camp, Trnopolje. It's not a
14 remand prison. It's a camp. And I told in previous trials how I lived
15 there, what I lived through, how I was treated.
16 Q. Leave that alone. We're looking at the legal side of things.
17 A. It has nothing to do with anything legal. It's a camp,
18 Mr. Karadzic. Understand that. It's a concentration camp. All the
19 rules are forgotten there. The domestic legislation, international
20 legislation, all that was forgotten.
21 Q. Were you charged, brought before the court, and is it the case
22 that the longest prison -- longest remand period is six months in our
24 A. That has nothing to do with anything. What kind of remand are
25 you talking about? Can you understand that I had no idea why I was
1 detained, I never saw anything in writing. Just watched the torture
2 there. I watched people disappearing. The abuse, the torture. And I
3 was just waiting when they would come --
4 Q. Let's stick to my question. I'm asking you: Is the maximum
5 remand in our country six months?
6 A. It was then.
7 Q. You stayed a bit longer than a month in Omarska and five days in
8 Trnopolje; correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you know that in books written by people you know Trnopolje is
11 called salvation?
12 A. No, it was no salvation to me. I'm speaking from my point of
13 view and from my experience.
14 Q. It's written in a book that you he must know well.
15 A. Everybody has the write to write what they feel, the way they
16 feel. I thought at the time, and I hoped, actually, that perhaps that
17 could be the path to freedom. However, once I arrived there I was afraid
18 over there as well.
19 Q. Madam, but you stayed there for five days and then you left;
21 A. That's right.
22 Q. Thank you. Now, could we please have a look at this. You say,
23 and you said that in the Kvocka case -- I just have to find the footnote.
24 In the Kvocka case, you said that a Chetnik used a knife to carve a cross
25 on the forehead of a person, (redacted) Tell me, what did he carve and
2 A. As far as I can remember, I corrected that statement. It wasn't
3 on the forehead of this person but on the cheek of that person
4 (redacted) A man walked in there who was not part of the prison
5 staff. When I said "staff," he wasn't a guard. He wasn't the chief. He
6 wasn't among the camp structures, as it were. On that day, a man arrived
7 who wore a uniform and a cap with a cockade and he took a knife out of
8 his boot. He walked up to (redacted) who was sitting in the
9 corner of the restaurant, and he carved a cross in her cheek with that
10 knife. I have already stated this and I remember that scene very well.
11 Q. Thank you. In this case --
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
13 MS. EDGERTON: This is actually one of the things that we did
14 discuss earlier, Your Honour. If we could go into private session,
15 quickly, please.
16 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
17 [Private session]
10 [Open session]
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. So this is one statement. A cross on the forehead. (redacted)
19 A. No, no. No way. No way, not on the breast. That is some
20 mistake. On the cheek. On the face.
21 Q. Did you correct that in "Oslobodjenje"?
22 A. I don't know. I didn't read that article in "Oslobodjenje."
23 Really, I don't know how that could have been written that way. I
24 haven't read it. This is the first time I hear that that is what was
25 written there, believe me. On the face. Quite clearly. I am stating
1 that very clearly. On the face, on the cheek.
2 Q. A moment ago, you said that you remember that very clearly, and
3 now we see that there are three variants.
4 A. Well, the cheek is part of the face, isn't it? So there's just
5 one variant.
6 Q. I don't have time to deal with these discrepancies any longer.
7 But, all right, just a moment, please.
8 When you spoke about the killing of Mehmedalija Sarajlic --
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. -- you said that you only recognised his body among the others;
11 is that right?
12 A. Yes, yes. He had a light coloured suit that he wore all the time
13 in the camp until he was liquidated.
14 Q. However, in your statement given to the commission of experts,
15 you said that you had heard that he had been killed but that you had not
16 seen his body.
17 A. I just agree with what I said here before the Court and what is
18 stated in the transcripts from my previous testimonies.
19 Q. This statement that you gave to the commission of American
20 experts, are you withdrawing it altogether?
21 A. I don't know. I haven't read it, so I cannot say anything,
22 whether there are any mistakes there or not.
23 Q. You talk about calls during the night and so on.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. About things that you heard of. However, you did not see these
1 things; right?
2 A. Which things? I don't understand. Would you please repeat your
4 Q. Well, Zeljko Meakic, called Jadranka, not to mention her last
5 name, and:
6 [In English] "... all out which eventually became a nightly
8 [Interpretation] You say:
9 [In English] "During this period" -- [no interpretation] "...
10 didn't see or hear anything to make her believe that anyone was punished
11 for any of those things to prisoner in camp."
12 [Interpretation] And you say that there were persons who had been
13 killed. Which killing did you see actually?
14 A. I saw many killings. I saw many persons being killed, very many.
15 Also tortures.
16 Q. Leave tortures aside now. Which killings?
17 A. I cannot remember the first and last names of the persons who
18 were killed, but my day in Omarska started with a counting of these dead
19 people who were thrown out in front of the "White House" on the lawn in
20 front of the "White House."
21 Q. Who can confirm that, madam?
22 A. Confirm what?
23 Q. What you're saying now.
24 A. The skeletons from mass graves can confirm that. Do you
25 understand that? Many mass graves were found in which camp inmates from
1 Omarska were found and identified, so this is confirmed by the skeletons,
2 the skeletons of these persons that were found in mass graves. And
3 unfortunately many people have not been found yet, although it's been a
4 long time since.
5 Q. Thank you. Could you describe to us every killing that you saw
6 and what happened?
7 A. Well, for the most part --
8 Q. No, no, no. You say, on such and such a date, such and such a
9 thing happened. Tell us all of that like a real witness.
10 A. Oh, like a real one, right? Let me tell you, sometimes a bullet
11 was a gift, a reward, in Omarska. Before killing people, they beat them
12 horribly with various objects.
13 Q. Lady, I really have no time. I would like to listen to all you
14 have. And if you had really lived through all you claim you've lived, I
15 would feel great sympathy. But just tell me, describe a murder that you
16 saw with your own eyes. It happened this and this, this person was ...
17 and then you give us name and surname, and so and so shot him.
18 A. In Omarska people mostly succumbed to the injuries of the awful
19 torture and beatings with iron and wooden objects of all sorts. People
20 were mostly killed by rifle or pistol bullets, but people died for the
21 most part because they couldn't stand this torture. It was not as easy
22 as just taking a gun and killing someone. Before that the person was
23 tortured and abused in all sorts of ways, and succumbs.
24 Q. So you didn't see a single murder?
25 A. I've seen many.
1 Q. Describe one.
2 A. They torture a man, they beat him.
3 MS. EDGERTON: If I may, Your Honour, I'm sorry, but I didn't
4 want to go any further. I'd like to please go into private session and
5 ask for another redaction.
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Could the Chamber move into private is
8 [Private session]
15 [Open session]
16 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, may I know if I
18 get any more time tomorrow and how much? There is a large topic that
19 still have to go through and I've barely touched upon several other
20 subjects, especially where personalities and specific incidents are
21 concerned. I need, if not a whole session, then at least an hour.
22 JUDGE KWON: I think so, but I will let you know in a couple of
23 minutes. In the meantime, please continue.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. It's -- this is certainly safe to say. Was your position and
2 your institution of municipal nature?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. So if a Muslim municipality had been formed, the same institution
5 would have existed in it?
6 A. How could I know that?
7 Q. Well, in Sarajevo, which has ten municipalities, does every
8 municipality have that same kind of institution?
9 A. But they're not Muslim institutions.
10 Q. I'm saying that when a municipality exists, it has that
12 A. It does.
13 Q. Do you know that it had been offered to the Muslims and Croats
14 working in state administration to pledge an oath to the Serb authorities
15 or to move to a Muslim municipality?
16 A. Where?
17 Q. In Prijedor, Muslims and Croats received an offer to make an oath
18 that they will enforce the laws of the -- of Republika Srpska, and some
19 did, whereas others were waiting for a Muslim municipality to be formed.
20 Do you know that there was this oath of loyalty, a solemn declaration?
21 A. I don't know anything about that, but one woman inmate told us
22 that she had signed some sort of document on loyalty. She was working in
23 that -- in a centre in Sarajevo, and she was still brought to the camp.
24 Another woman didn't sign and was brought to the camp too. So I don't
25 know if it had anything to do with it, this signing of loyalty.
1 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, we will adjourn for today here, and
2 you'll have 25 minutes tomorrow to conclude your cross-examination.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 JUDGE KWON: We'll resume tomorrow at quarter past 2.00.
5 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, sorry.
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Sutherland.
7 MS. SUTHERLAND: If I can just raise something in relation to the
8 supplemental motion that was filed in the break. We would ask that the
9 appendixes still remain confidential because the address of the witness
10 is in there and also security concerns on matters which are normally
11 dealt with in confidential filings.
12 JUDGE KWON: And with respect --
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: And also for the 61st motion as well, if those
14 appendices could also be put under seal.
15 MR. ROBINSON: Actually, Mr. President, we would be happy to
16 redact any address. But in terms of the other information, we don't
17 think it should be under seal.
18 JUDGE KWON: We'll take a look into.
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: But, sorry, Your Honour, at the moment they're a
20 public document, until you rule otherwise.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE KWON: I meant that we'll put it under seal provisionally
23 and we'll take a look, further look.
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE KWON: And with respect to Mr. Robinson's request to lift
1 the confidentiality of the Chamber's ruling, with respect to this
2 witness, we agree that this can be -- the confidentiality of the ruling
3 can be lifted. But except for the last passage which relates to the
4 warning to the witness, so, i.e., the -- from my transcript page -- on
5 page -- line 21 of page 52 to 24 -- and line 24, transcript page 53, can
6 be public.
7 Very well. I always forget to mention the audio/video part as
8 well. The hearing is now adjourned.
9 [The witness stands down]
10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.,
11 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 27th day of
12 October, 2011, at 2.15 p.m.