1 Wednesday, 23 November 2011
2 [Closed session]
11 Pages 21772-21844 redacted. Closed session.
1 [Open session]
2 MR. NICHOLLS: I hope so. I was just going to say: When
3 convenient for Your Honours, we can respond orally to the accused's
4 motion to modify the protective measures for KDZ039. He will be starting
5 tomorrow, so we can respond orally if Your Honours like.
6 JUDGE KWON: I remember having been advised by the interpreters
7 not to speak while there's the noise.
8 Yes, Mr. -- yes, proceed, Mr. Nicholls.
9 MR. NICHOLLS: Just very quickly: First of all, there's an error
10 in the motion, which I pointed out to my friend during the break. The
11 witness only has pseudonym, not pseudonym, image, voice distortion. So
12 we're only talking about a pseudonym. And I asked if that would prompt
13 them to withdraw their motion and it does not. First of all, the
14 motion's very untimely. No reason for it to be -- have been filed at
15 this very late date, 22nd November. I met the witness on Monday and,
16 without having a big conversation with him, asked him if he requested --
17 if he wished for the protective measures to remain in place, and he said
18 that he did. And just for the basic law, the motion fails to identify
19 any exceptional circumstances under Rule 75, either exigent circumstances
20 or identifying any miscarriage of justice, that would warrant the
21 amendment of these -- the change of the protective measures without the
22 witness's consent. And we've looked at it, and the media article cited,
23 my understanding is pre-date, the granting of the protective measures in
24 the prior case, the first case. So it's not a change in circumstance.
25 And I think just the pseudonym is reasonable for this witness, and there
1 hasn't been an adequate showing to amend them.
2 [The witness takes the stand]
3 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Nicholls.
4 Yes, Mr. Robinson.
5 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, thank you, Mr. President. Just to make a
6 brief reply. First of all, I don't really understand what protection is
7 offered by a witness who comes here with no image distortion and no
8 facial distortion and yet requires a pseudonym. And perhaps the best way
9 to resolve this is to ask the witness why he feels he needs a pseudonym,
10 when the public can see who he is, hear his whole story, and hear his
11 voice. And if there's a good reason for it, okay. But this witness has
12 testified -- has made known that he's been a witness in earlier
13 proceedings in this Tribunal, and I don't think that this is the kind of
14 thing that protective measures are designed to protect. So it's -- in
15 our view, it's an unnecessary measure. But if there's some reason why
16 the witness has that his name can't be revealed, then we're opened to
17 revision of that.
18 JUDGE KWON: Did he have the identical protective measure in the
19 previous proceedings? I mean only the pseudonym.
20 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, Your Honour. And that was granted on the
21 basis of what was considered to be necessary at that time. And other
22 than not liking it, there's been no showing of change of circumstances.
23 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
24 WITNESS: EWAN BROWN [Resumed]
25 JUDGE KWON: My apologies, Mr. Brown, for your inconvenience.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's no inconvenience, Your Honour,
2 at all.
3 JUDGE KWON: And it's evident -- it has become evident that we
4 cannot conclude your evidence today and you have to stay overnight again.
5 Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.
6 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]
7 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Brown.
8 A. Good afternoon, Mr. Karadzic.
9 Q. I would like to know whether you used a document or a paragraph
10 from a document, and I'm not interested in the reasons why.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have 65 ter 6732.
12 It may already be a D exhibit. Actually, it's D1921. It has to do with
13 the treatment of civilians in the municipality of Novi Grad.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. While we're waiting for the document, I don't know if I asked you
16 if you knew that these Muslim civilians were offered transport by train
17 which they refused. They spent 17 days at home, and only on the second
18 occasion they accepted to be transported to Doboj. Were you aware of
20 The question is unrelated to the document. Did you know that
21 they were not forced? They initially were offered transport which they
22 refused, and then 17 days later another offer was made which they
23 accepted. Did you know that?
24 A. I'm unaware of whatever negotiations may have gone on in relation
25 to -- to this. I can only go by the documentation that's there. I
1 believe this was a document that was referenced in my report. I would
2 doubt your characteristic that these individuals were somehow offered
3 transportation on -- on cattle trucks as some kind of good thing. It
4 seems pretty quickly after Novi -- or the Muslim areas in Novi were
5 subject to military operations a large number of those people were
6 leaving that municipality.
7 Q. Thank you. Recently we had a Muslim witness from the group who
8 confirmed what I just told you. In any case, have a look at this. Did
9 you refer to the paragraph beginning with "As of 1400 hours, and returns
10 weapons." It is the sixth or seventh row. Sorry, "1500 hours. However,
11 these activities," et cetera. Did you refer to that paragraph?
12 A. I'm not sure if I referred specifically to that paragraph. I --
13 I -- it's a large document, and I think the reason I was referring to it
14 was the story that seemed to be -- to be told from there, that there was
15 a dead-line set and that eventually a large number of people were taken
16 from their area of homes and -- and moved out of the municipality. I
17 can't remember if I specifically reference that line or that section.
18 Q. Could we see the bottom of the page in both versions. Can you
19 see that the population was taken to the stadium and that the population
20 was from Blagaj Japra? It all lasted between the 2nd June until the
21 5th of June, which is something that is already on the next side.
22 Searches and the fighting continued throughout that period, and following
23 it the population was returned. Did you take note of that and include it
24 in your report?
25 A. Well, they may have returned for a short space of time, but I
1 don't think it lasted very long, Mr. Karadzic.
2 Q. Mr. Brown, I'm interested only in why or whether you specified
3 reasons why the TO, without consulting the public security sector, did
4 so. It says here the 2nd of June, which is still on the first page in
5 the Serbian, as well as in the English version.
6 Do you know what the reasons were for the TO to execute that
7 operation? There was an order to rein in uncontrolled groups and units
8 which retaliated against the population and destroyed property.
9 Now we can go to the next page in English.
10 Can you see these reasons specified in the second paragraph, and
11 did you cite them?
12 A. I wonder if I can just take a second to read the first and second
13 pages again.
14 Yes. The document seems to indicate, at least here, that a large
15 number were taken, accorded information that the SJB had, that they were
16 taken initially to the stadium. They were released about a number of
17 days later. A significantly large number of people were moved out of the
18 municipality on those trains that we talked about earlier.
19 Q. That is incorrect, Mr. Brown. They were released to go home
20 then, and the train transport occurred at another time. You see here
21 that 120 of them voluntarily joined the army and only 18 were retained by
22 the military police, because there were reasons to suspect they were
23 involved in certain activities. Did you mention that?
24 A. I would have to look at my report. I'm not sure necessarily I
25 did. This is what the document does say, but my point was that
1 irrespective of whether a number of them were released, this group of
2 300 initially, were released back to their homes, within a few days later
3 a significantly large number, in the thousands, were moved out of the
4 municipality. And I believe many, at least even according to this
5 document, although 700 returned, a large number of them didn't return.
6 And then there are references later in the document about the
7 deregistration process which involved thousands more.
8 Q. Sir, let's stay with this. Disbanded on the 5th of June by most
9 of the citizens being released, free to go home. Does it say they were
10 free to go home?
11 A. It says most of the citizens being allowed home. Whether they
12 went home or whether they said home for a week and ended up on the trains
13 a week later, I don't know. This is what the document says, that most
14 were allowed home. I'm not sure that they remained home for very long,
16 Q. Sir, it's up to the Prosecutor to deal with it. I'm simply
17 trying to ascertain whether you used this document appropriately, whether
18 you approached it objectively and made use of it in the correct way.
19 A. I believe I did, Mr. Karadzic.
20 Q. Well, you see, you didn't. Look page 4. It is the 24th or the
21 25th of May, I think that's how we can find it. The 24th of May. It
22 says, During the stay of those Muslim citizens in Blagaj, they were
23 provided health care and food supply. Some food was also received by
24 representatives of the Crisis Staff who said there were -- there was
25 enough food for everyone.
1 Further below, it mentions the period when uncontrolled
2 activities took place in the area of Bosanski Novi and the valley of
3 Japra. The functioning of the public security station in the area was
4 partially or completely made impossible at times. Based on that, the
5 public security station was unable to register the true nature of events.
6 Did you know that there were killings there of policemen?
7 A. I'm not aware of there being killings of policemen, whether it's
8 referenced in this document or elsewhere.
9 Q. Mr. Brown, it was mentioned that the crisis occurred after a
10 funeral of a policeman.
11 A. I don't believe the operations in Novi were somehow sparked off
12 or followed on from the killing of a policeman or, I think, even might
13 make mention of a soldier on page 1. I think this document, at the
14 beginning, highlights that operations were conducted in Bosanski Novi as
15 a result of instructions from a higher level, including Bogdan Subotic's
16 instruction of April, and ARK Crisis Staff decisions on disarmament, that
17 an operation took place in Bosanski Novi. It may well have been that
18 during that there had been retaliatory action, but a large number of
19 people ended up being moved out of that municipality after these
20 operations. That's my point with Novi. It may well have been that some
21 people were initially taken to the -- the sports centre, it may well have
22 been initially that some of them were allowed to return to their homes,
23 but I do not believe, from this document and also the pattern that seemed
24 to occur in other municipalities, that those people were being moved out
25 because of large-scale conflict, protracted large-scale conflict, and
1 were being moved out for their own safety at all. I think the document
2 shows that there was a plan of disarmament, that that plan was put into
3 operation in this case with a significant involvement of the TO, and that
4 the end product was that a large number of people of Muslim ethnicity
5 highlighted in this document left the municipality quite soon after that.
6 And I don't believe they came back, at least not in the period that I
7 looked at.
8 Q. I don't know if I asked you this: Did you know they were offered
9 to go to Banja Luka, which was another Serbian town just like Prijedor?
10 They refused both and put up an ultimatum wanting to go further afield to
11 Europe. Did you take note of that?
12 A. I was not aware of that, Mr. Karadzic. And it strikes me as
13 being somewhat unusual that individuals were being offered to go anywhere
14 other than their homes unless there was a desire or a keen desire to see
15 these people leave. In Bosanski Novi, there didn't -- operations were
16 again one of those municipalities where the operations themselves took --
17 took place quite quickly. They were over quite quickly. This wasn't a
18 long protracted conflict in that municipality in which armed groups were
19 fighting, you know, using significant amounts of weaponry. Operations
20 were finished quite quickly. And it seems to me unusual that you're
21 indicating that people should be offered to go anywhere other than their
22 homes unless there was a desire to see those individuals leave. And
23 that, along with other municipalities at the ARK at this time, I would
24 argue that there was a desire to see these individuals leave and that in
25 controlling the territory that was deemed to be part of the
1 Republika Srpska, there was not a desire to see a large number of
2 individuals who were seen deemed to be against that state in there. I
3 don't know why you would offer so many thousands of people to move to
4 Banja Luka or to other parts of Europe when actually the conflict was
5 over quite quickly. Unless there was a desire to see that those people
6 were not going to remain in that municipality.
7 Q. And if I were to tell you, Mr. Brown, that guerrilla groups and
8 leftover groups in the Sana valley, to a lesser extent Kljuc, but anyway,
9 by the Sana River, Bosanski Novi, Japra, Sanski Most, that these groups
10 existed all the way up until the end of 1994, what do you say to that?
11 Just tell us whether you knew that or not.
12 A. There are references in the 1st Krajina Corps documents after the
13 take-over of municipalities certainly of small groups. Whether they had
14 fled from the areas of conflict, how they were armed, is not always
15 clear. Those groups may well have been there. They don't seem to have
16 significantly curtailed the operations of the 1st Krajina Corps, nor were
17 they launching large attacks on units of the 1st Krajina Corps inside
18 those municipalities after they were taken. Yes, the 1st Krajina Corps
19 did make reference to cleansing operations, continuing to secure
20 territory in those municipalities after the attacks, but I don't see them
21 in any significant numbers nor them curtailing the 1st Krajina Corps.
22 And so I did not see those attacks in -- in Prijedor and Sanski Most and
23 Novi lasting very long, and yet a large number of people left. This is
24 according to their own documents.
25 Q. Mr. Brown, I'm telling you that until the end of 1994 there were
1 people living in dugouts, in the mountains and forests, killing farmers
2 in their fields, and policemen and soldiers in ambushes. It was far away
3 from the front lines, deep behind the backs of the 1st Krajina Corps. Do
4 you accept that or not? Yes or no? I claim it is true. We have
5 documents to support that. And we could already hear such evidence in
6 this courtroom. But do you deny that?
7 A. That may well have been the case, Mr. Karadzic, but what I'm
8 saying is you -- you cannot link those types of small-level operations
9 which may have occurred to somehow the mass removal of individuals from
10 municipalities under the guise that they were being protected in that
11 sort of combat situation. The operations that I saw after the territory
12 such as Prijedor, Sanski Most, Novi, Kljuc, after control was taken,
13 there was -- there may well have been those small incidents of ambushes
14 or groups hiding in woods who'd fled, but that somehow seems different
15 and separate to -- and -- and wasn't the type of combat that would seem,
16 to me at least, to have resulted in large -- thousands of individuals
17 somehow fleeing that type of combat. The operations that took place
18 after those municipalities occurred, if at all, were maybe of that
19 nature, small units, small bands, people hiding out. And I don't see a
20 relationship between that type of activity and what the Krajina Corps may
21 have done against those individuals and the large number of people who
22 had left that municipality at all.
23 Q. Mr. Brown, I'm asking you this: Do you accept that revenge by
24 unfortunate individuals could have had an impact on the general
25 population? Do you have any evidence of the 1st Krajina Corps doing
1 anything to those people? Let's look at page 7, security assessment.
2 You also did not take that into account. The SDS put forth its
3 positions. Do you accept that there were cases of revenge and that
4 uncontrolled elements in the society represented a danger to the same
5 society rather than that danger being posed by the 1st Krajina Corps?
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 7 in the Serbian version,
7 please. Chapter 4 in the English. Can we locate that?
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Have you read this, and did you take it into account? Doesn't it
10 become clear that no one here is afraid of the 1st Krajina Corps but that
11 people were afraid of individuals who were out of control, who used the
12 guerrilla attacks as an excuse for personal vendetta?
13 A. Which part of the document are you referring to, Mr. Karadzic, on
14 this -- on this page?
15 Q. Let's say item 1. And then item 1. We can do without the
16 Serbian version. Then look at the second part of item 2. Disarmament by
17 forceful means of all individuals, groups, and paramilitary formations in
18 olive drab and camouflage fatigues. Do you see here what the position
19 was of the civilian authorities? Did you point that out in your report?
20 A. I'm not sure I referenced specifically this chapter. I did make
21 mention in the report to the issue of paramilitaries. There are some
22 references in the Krajina Corps documents to uncontrolled elements, and
23 there are references to revenge attacks, a number of references to that.
24 But I don't see --
25 Q. Please leave your buts for the Prosecution. They will have their
1 redirect. You did know about this, but did you take it into account?
2 Item 5, for example.
3 JUDGE KWON: No. As I indicated many times to you, Mr. Karadzic,
4 do not interrupt the witness when he's answering the question, please.
5 Yes, Mr. Brown.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But I -- I -- I didn't see that --
7 that those revenge attacks were the -- the reason why those
8 municipalities or operations in those municipalities were undertaken. It
9 may well have been that there were incidents of revenge attacks. This
10 document seems to note, reference something at the beginning. There are
11 other Krajina Corps documents indicating that there were revenge attacks.
12 But Bosanski Novi, the operations that were take -- that took place
13 there, were planned and, as I said last week, seemed to follow a pattern
14 that can be documented.
15 And in many cases the attacks involved not paramilitary groups or
16 out-of-control groups, but formed units of the corps. The 43rd Brigade
17 in Prijedor, the 5th Kozara Brigade in Prijedor, elements of them, at
18 least, the 6th Brigade in Sanski Most, the 1st Brigade in Kljuc, parts of
19 the 30th Division in other areas, Kotor Varos Light Brigade in
20 Kotor Varos. These were not renegade, out-of-control units.
21 And if you look, for example, yesterday the document on
22 Sanski Most, you can see a clear chain from the decision on the
23 15th and the 16th of April down to the ARK Crisis Staff, the Sanski Most
24 Crisis Staff responding to the request of the ARK for disarmament
25 operations, Crisis Staff documents requesting that Colonel Basara and
1 Colonel Ancic, who is the TO commander, were to conduct operations and a
2 plan --
3 Q. I must interrupt you. I'm kindly asking you this. I'm not
4 interested in you repeating your report. Please answer my specific
5 questions. Did you rely on this document?
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let's look at item 5 and show it to
7 the witness. I'm sorry, I need to control my witness and my examination.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Did you take note of item 5? You're simply retelling your
10 findings, and we already have them.
11 A. Item 5 says what it says. As I said to you yesterday, there are
12 other references in the Krajina Corps documents saying that you should
13 apply the Geneva Conventions or treat prisoners humanely. But as I said
14 also, I did not see members of the 1st Krajina Corps being held to
15 account for any of the noted crimes in the documents that were flagged up
16 to me.
17 JUDGE KWON: That will be all for today, Mr. Karadzic. We'll
18 continue tomorrow. We're sitting in the afternoon tomorrow, and resuming
19 at 2.15.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Before we adjourn, please, take
21 into account the number of paragraphs and references as well as the
22 number of documents and the importance of them. This is a miniature
23 indictment pertaining to the Krajina, and I'll need much more time to
24 deal with it.
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
1 MR. NICHOLLS: I just wanted to say, since the witness is
2 here - obviously I -- we can't communicate with him - if he could be
3 given some idea of the amount of time remaining so that he knows what's
4 going on with his life in the next -- tomorrow, so he can make plans.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber has decided to give you the whole
7 session tomorrow, the first session. That means you will have another
8 extra hour to finish your cross-examination.
9 We are now adjourned.
10 [The witness stands down]
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.53 p.m.,
12 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 24th day
13 of November, 2011, at 2.15 p.m.