Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 22538

 1                           Friday, 9 December 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The witness takes the stand]

 4                           [The accused entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.  Good morning,

 7     Mr. Riedlmayer.

 8             THE WITNESS:  Good morning, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, sir.

10             THE WITNESS:  If the Court permits, I would like to raise a small

11     matter before we again.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, by all means.

13             THE WITNESS:  When I arrived here, I had expected to testify

14     earlier in the week and I had agreed to give a lecture in Amsterdam on

15     Friday afternoon at 3.00.  This is now Friday, and if there is any chance

16     we can finish earlier than that, I could still make it to Amsterdam.

17     Otherwise, I need to notify the organisers.  I understand that my first

18     obligation is to the court and to the interests of justice, but I'd like

19     to know whether to notify them to cancel.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Having heard that, we'll reduce the time

21     for lunch break to half an hour from an hour, and we can -- we can

22     conclude at least by 2.30, and I don't think Mr. Karadzic would need all

23     those time.  He is going to spend about three hours for your cross, so

24     I'm confident we can conclude around by 2.00.

25             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

Page 22539

 1             JUDGE KWON:  We'll see.

 2             Before we begin and without having to going -- go into private

 3     session, I will just term it in general terms, but I wonder, Mr. Tieger,

 4     then whether Prosecution is prepared to respond to the motion by the

 5     accused which relates to certain Rule 70 conditions.  Do you follow?

 6             MR. TIEGER:  I'm not sure, Mr. President, but in any event, let

 7     me -- I -- do you have a time-frame, a particular time-frame in mind and

 8     I can get back to the Court shortly on the status and progress of the

 9     Prosecution's position on that?  But it would be helpful if I knew that

10     you had a particular time-frame in mind rather than --

11             JUDGE KWON:  If we would like to deal with it -- we have to deal

12     with it in the absence of the witness.  The motion I referred to was

13     filed on 8th of December.

14             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

16             Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And, Your Honour, good morning.  And I'm

18     certainly not going to take half an hour with the next slide which is

19     what I intimated to you at the end of the session yesterday.  I

20     apologise.  I was jumping ahead and I thought you meant how long I was

21     going to take to complete Mr. Riedlmayer's testimony -- evidence in

22     chief, that is.  And we're also assisted today by Ms. Janet Stewart in

23     Mr. Reid's absence.

24                           WITNESS:  ANDRAS JANOS RIEDLMAYER [Resumed]

25                           Examination by Ms. Sutherland:  [Continued]

Page 22540

 1        Q.   So we will finish where we were -- left off on the last slide of

 2     the -- when we were dealing, Mr. Riedlmayer, with some of the

 3     characteristics of the destruction.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And I if could have 65 ter number --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Before that, briefly, I wonder whether Ms. Pelic has

 6     been officially introduced?

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, she has, Your Honour, but not in open

 8     session.  So we are assisted also today by Ms. Lena Pelic.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  65 ter number 23553, please.  If we could go to

11     slide number 11, which is page number 11 of e-court, please.

12        Q.   Mr. Riedlmayer, what's the significance of the photograph's that

13     we now have in front of us?

14        A.   This is a mosque in the town of Kozarac in Prijedor municipality.

15     It's the Mutnik mosque.  It's a considerably old and prominent building.

16     As we saw in the slides yesterday, the most prominent landmark is the

17     minaret which you see in the pre-war photograph on the right.  The

18     photograph at the left was taken after the war at a 90 degree angle

19     from -- clockwise from the pre-war photo, and you can see the minaret is

20     missing.  The building has been completely burned out, and it's also

21     worth noting that this is a building that stands at some distance from

22     the main street on a small rise.  So it's not likely to have gotten into

23     the way of other kinds of attacks.  I think whatever happened to it

24     happened to it specifically.

25        Q.   Were some categories of buildings more heavily damaged or

Page 22541

 1     destroyed than others?

 2        A.   Yes.  As I observe in my report, the old and prominent mosques,

 3     the ones dating back to the Ottoman and Austrian period and especially

 4     the listed monuments, the ones under special legal protection suffered a

 5     higher percentage of damage than others did.

 6        Q.   If we could go to the next slide, please.  This is, I think, your

 7     first of two examples.  Can you describe what's seen in this photograph?

 8        A.   This is the Aladza mosque in Foca.  It was a protected monument.

 9     It dates from the 16th century.  The photo at left is a pre-war photo.

10     The photo at right was taken in 1996 after the end of the war, and you

11     can see that not only has the mosque been destroyed but the rubble has

12     also been removed.  All that is still visible is the outlines of the

13     foundation and that circular pattern in front is the foundation of the

14     ablution fountain which you can see on the right in the pre-war photo.

15        Q.   May we go to the next slide.  Now, I think there are three slides

16     relating to this example.

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Can you describe what's shown in this first slide.

19        A.   Yes, this is the mosque of Sultan Mehmed the conqueror on top of

20     a hundred metre high cliff at Kuslat at the southern portion of Zvornik

21     municipality.  It is reputing to be one of the oldest mosques in Bosnia

22     and it was a protected monument, listed by legislative protection.  This

23     is a pre-war view from the institute for the protection of monuments

24     looking down into the valley.

25        Q.   If we can go to the next slide?

Page 22542

 1        A.   At left is another photo taken before the war by the institute

 2     for protection of monuments.  You can see the mosque sitting on the

 3     cliff.  The photo at right was taken in May of 2002.  It does not show a

 4     mosque.  If you look very carefully, the peak at the left of the top of

 5     the cliff is where the mosque used to be.  During my survey, I passed by

 6     here and looked for the mosque, did not see it.  I inquired about going

 7     up there, and was told that it was a two-hour climb and it would take the

 8     rest of the day.  So I did not actually go up there but recorded the

 9     absence of the mosque.

10        Q.   If we could go to the next slide.

11        A.   In 2006 I acquired a number of photographs taken at the mosque

12     site by local journalists and this is one of them.  It shows that mosque

13     has been very heavily damaged.  Parts of the walls, the roof, the minaret

14     are all missing.

15        Q.   I want to turn now to new mosques and churches.  Were they

16     damaged to the same extent?

17        A.   I believe what you're referring to -- and maybe we could go to

18     the next slide.  I don't know.

19        Q.   Yes.

20        A.   I observed, as I also mentioned in my report, that in the areas

21     that I surveyed ranging from Sanski Most in the west to Zvornik in the

22     east, there were a number of mosques and churches that were still under

23     construction on the eve of the war.  Some of them were being used

24     informally for overflow crowds on holidays, but they had not been

25     officially inaugurated and registered with the civil authorities yet.

Page 22543

 1             In a number of cases there were old mosques and churches next to

 2     the newly built ones, and the old ones would be invariably destroyed or

 3     heavily damaged while the as yet unregistered, unfinished building

 4     usually had only minor damage.

 5             This is an example.  This is the new mosque in Hrustovo-Kukavice

 6     in Sanski Most municipality.  You can see there are two projectile

 7     impacts on the facade, but otherwise the mosque, its domes, is intact.

 8     Next to it at the right is the old mosque which we can see on the next

 9     slide.

10        Q.   Yes.  If we could have the next slide, please.

11        A.   This is the old mosque.  This is a shot from the other side of

12     the building.  So you see there in the rear the rear facade of the new

13     mosque.  Next to it is the old mosque.  It's completely burned out.  On

14     the right is a shot of the interior.  I apologise for the quality.  It is

15     a bad colour Xerox of a photograph from a museum, but you can see that

16     there is the prayer niche and the pulpit and especially on the pulpit you

17     can see fire damage.  This inside shot is immediately between the two

18     windows at right on the inside of the mosque.

19        Q.   If we could go to the next slide, please.  I think this is the

20     next example.

21        A.   Yes.  This is a mosque being at Donji Krizevici at Zvornik

22     municipality.  As far as I'm aware, and as far as I was told by the

23     Islamic community of Zvornik, this is the only mosque in Zvornik

24     municipality out of more than 30 that survived the war relatively intact.

25     Like the mosque in Sanski Most, it was under construction.  It's very

Page 22544

 1     visibly a mosque.  It has a finished dome, and behind it you can see the

 2     beginnings of a minaret under construction.  It was clearly visible from

 3     the main highway leading from Zvornik and yet it suffered no damage other

 4     than graffiti and stolen building materials during the war.

 5        Q.   What conclusions, if any, do you draw from new -- newer mosques

 6     not receiving the same level of damage as the older mosques?

 7        A.   I think it indicates the fact that there must have been a pattern

 8     of going after the mosques that were actually registered.  I hesitate to

 9     draw far reaching conclusion, that's really the Court's business, but I

10     think it's significant that these mosques that were unregistered but

11     otherwise highly visible were left untouched while the older ones were

12     destroyed almost without exception.

13        Q.   You've already surveyed religious libraries and archives of the

14     Muslim and Catholic communities.  There's two examples that you wish to

15     show the Court.  The next -- if we could have the next slide, please.

16     What is the significance of this first example showing a drawing and a

17     photograph?

18        A.   The drawing represents the town mosque in Bratunac.  It was the

19     headquarters of the Islamic Community in Bratunac municipality, and the

20     reason I'm showing a drawing rather than a photograph is because the

21     photographs taken before the war were taken long enough before the war

22     that they don't show the little annex building to the left of the mosque.

23     The annex building contained the chancery and the archives of the Islamic

24     Community of Bratunac.  The photo at the right is one that I took, and I

25     believe what you're seeing there is part of the path that leads up

Page 22545

 1     between the mosque which is no longer there and the annex building which

 2     is no longer there.  The entire site of the town mosque and of the Vakuf

 3     building, the endowment building that housed the offices is completely

 4     razed.  This was taken in 2002.

 5        Q.   If we could look at the next slide, please.

 6        A.   This slide shows the town mosque and offices of the Islamic

 7     Community of Zvornik.  It's in the centre of the marketplace in Zvornik,

 8     and the photo at left was taken just before the war.  If you look to the

 9     left of the mosque is a large tree.  This is a linden tree, sometimes

10     known in British English as lime tree.  In Bosnian it's known as "lipa,"

11     and it was a custom in Bosnia to plant linden trees next to the entrances

12     of mosques.

13             I point this out because in the photograph at the right you can

14     see the linden tree.  Again, we're looking at the mosque from 90 degrees

15     clockwise.  You see the linden tree with a deposit of garbage in front of

16     it, and both the mosque and the small building that was next to it that

17     housed the offices of the Islamic Community are gone.  It had been used

18     as a parking lot during and after the war.  By the time I came in 2002, a

19     court decision had compelled the municipal authorities to put a fence

20     around it.

21        Q.   And I want to deal now with what happened to the Muslim and

22     Catholic religious and cultural sites after the buildings were destroyed.

23     What -- what were their main uses of these areas?

24        A.   Well, as I indicated in some cases they were used as parking

25     lots, as flea markets, very often as deposits for garbage.  Sometimes

Page 22546

 1     junked automobiles would be piled on the site.  In some cases there would

 2     be appropriation for other uses.

 3        Q.   If we can go through the next three slides.  First of all, what

 4     does this photograph show?

 5        A.   This shows another mosque in Zvornik, the Beksuja Dzamija.  It

 6     was an old mosque in a residential neighbourhood and the mosque is

 7     completely gone.  You can still see the linden tree.  The pre-war photo

 8     is very old, but you can see the fragments of a wall and a huge dumpster

 9     full of garbage.  This was in July, and the smell was rather overbearing.

10     Right to the left of the scene is a large block of flats.  So it was a

11     rather odd place to keep the garbage.

12        Q.   If the next slide can be shown.

13        A.   This is the third mosque in Zvornik.  It is the Zamlaz mosque,

14     and you can see it in the pre-war photo.  To the right of it is a

15     three-storey building with the characteristic striped pattern next to the

16     windows.  You can see that same building on the right of the photo at the

17     right, which was taken in 2002, I believe.  The mosque is gone and a

18     block of flats and shops is under construction.  This site has been

19     appropriated and turned to commercial uses.

20        Q.   If we could go to the --

21             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, Ms. Sutherland.  Just, could -- oh,

22     yes.  This will do as well.  A quick clarification.  Probably I have -- I

23     missed something yesterday.

24             Does this number by any chance have any significance?  Is it

25     related to cross-reference to some other -- yes.

Page 22547

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.  Yes, Your Honour.  In order

 2     assist the Chamber, Mr. Riedlmayer put the number of the formatted record

 3     for that particular mosque.  So if you are going to --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  For example, this is 22.31 --

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  So if you go to Exhibit P4070, which is the

 6     formatted records, you will see the same pictures and all of the detail

 7     which comes from the survey database.  And please correct me if I'm

 8     misstating this situation, Mr. Riedlmayer.

 9        A.   Yes.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Formatted record.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  So we have the --

12             JUDGE KWON:  Which we received in CD format.

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  No, that is uploaded in e-court.  What is on the

14     CD-ROM is the survey database, because that is the -- the very, very

15     large records of 381 sites, which is on a particular FileMaker software

16     which is incompatible with e-court.  So --

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  -- that isn't in e-court but the formatted the

19     records are.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:

22        Q.   And Mr. Riedlmayer, what's -- what's shown in this photograph,

23     very quickly?

24        A.   Yes.  This is another Muslim house of worship in a village just

25     outside of Zvornik.  It's the shrine at Divic.  The photo at left shows

Page 22548

 1     how it looked a couple of years before the war.  They had just

 2     refurbished it and there was a worship ceremony.  The photo at right is

 3     one that I took.  You can see that the shrine has been razed to its

 4     foundations, and there is a truck, a lorry dumped on the far end of the

 5     foundation, which is where the tombs of the Muslim saints who founded

 6     this were located.

 7        Q.   And I want to go to the final two slides.  Can you please

 8     describe what is shown in the first -- in the first slide?

 9        A.   This is a village mosque in Novoseoci Sokolac municipality.  It's

10     in the Romanija mountains north of Sarajevo.  The photo at left is from

11     the invitation to the opening of the mosque.  It was rebuilt after having

12     been destroyed in World War II, only in 1990, and at right you can see

13     what the site of the mosque looked like after the war in September of

14     1992.  According to information from the Islamic Community, the mosque

15     was destroyed and the villagers driven out.

16             Next slide.  These are the remains of the mosque identified as

17     such located at a municipal garbage dump at Ivan Polja about 6 kilometres

18     away from the village.  The remains of the mosque were dumped along with

19     tonnes of municipal garbage, and in 2000 an exhumation was carried out on

20     the site by the Institute For Missing Persons and found beneath the

21     rubble of the mosque were the remains of more than 40 residents of

22     Novoseoci who had last seen alive in September of 1992.

23        Q.   Do you know the ethnicity of those persons?

24        A.   Yes.  They -- it was a Muslim village, and they were Muslim

25     residents, and they had been congregants of this mosque.

Page 22549

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, that completes the slides.  I would

 2     tender 65 ter number 23553, please.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, it will be admitted.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P4071, Your Honours.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 6        Q.   Mr. Riedlmayer, after you submitted your expert report, the

 7     survey database, and the formatted records, you provided two photographs

 8     which you wanted to submit as additional documentation for your expert

 9     report.  These two photographs relate to sites 17.9 from the formatted

10     records relating to Donja Puharska in the Prijedor municipality; is that

11     right?

12        A.   That's correct.

13        Q.   Copies of these -- both of those photographs are already exhibits

14     in this case, Exhibit P03564 and P03565.  If we could have both of those

15     brought up on the screen.

16             Okay, this is P03564.

17        A.   Okay.  Would you like me to comment on it?

18        Q.   Yes, please.

19        A.   Yes.  The reason I was pleased to get these two additional

20     photographs which I obtained from the Islamic Community of Prijedor is

21     that when I visited this particular site in 2002, the rubble had already

22     been cleared and all that was left was bare foundations and the damaged

23     house to the right of the mosque.  These photos were taken in the late

24     summer of 1992, I believe in September of 1992, and if one looks at them

25     closely, first of all it becomes clear that this was a mosque.

Page 22550

 1     Immediately to the left of the house, the shiny white brick is the

 2     distinctive covering of the minaret of this mosque.  This mosque was the

 3     first one in Prijedor municipality to be built with a dome and with this

 4     particular kind of modern covering on the minarets.

 5             Next slide.

 6        Q.   Actually, before we move to the next slide, I need to correct the

 7     record.  This is Exhibit P03565, I just see from the 65 ter number that I

 8     can see at the top of the screen.  So if we could have Exhibit P03564

 9     now, please.  Which is 65 ter number 10978.

10        A.   Here you have the scene from another angle, and you can see once

11     again the covering of the minaret, and lying on the ground at the right

12     is the conical top of the minaret.

13        Q.   Thank you.  I've finished with those two exhibits.

14     Mr. Riedlmayer in your report, expert report, in paragraphs 21 to 57,

15     those paragraphs contain your findings.  First of all, in relation to the

16     Islamic religious sites, paragraph 26 of the report states that 266 of

17     the 281 mosques surveyed were heavily damaged or destroyed, or put

18     another way, 95 per cent of those buildings were heavily damaged or

19     destroyed.

20             Taking into account the dropped Schedule D sites, does this

21     percentage change at all?

22        A.   I actually did the calculation, and it changes it by less than

23     half a per cent.

24        Q.   And I think the -- the figures with the dropped sites, it becomes

25     226 of 239 mosques surveyed, with a total of 94.6 per cent.  Is that --

Page 22551

 1     is that right?

 2        A.   That's correct.

 3        Q.   Secondly, in relation to Roman Catholic sites, in paragraph 45 of

 4     the report you state that 32 of the 42 Catholic churches surveyed were

 5     heavily damaged or destroyed; or put another way, 76 per cent were

 6     heavily damaged or destroyed.  Again, taking into account the dropped

 7     Schedule D sites, does this percentage change at all?

 8        A.   It changes but very minimally, by about 2 per cent, I believe.

 9        Q.   And with the new figures with the dropped sites is 26 of 42

10     Catholic churches surveyed where 74.3 per cent were heavily damaged or

11     destroyed; is that right?

12        A.   That's correct.

13        Q.   Did you observe any other patterns with respect to the cultural

14     destruction in the large number of sites you've researched?

15        A.   Yes.  The pattern of destruction pretty much cover the areas that

16     had come under the control of Bosnian Serb forces in the municipalities

17     that I surveyed.  If one mapped the destroyed mosque sites, it was almost

18     possible to draw a territorial map of what areas had been conquered by

19     the Bosnian Serb forces.  On the other side of that, there would be

20     damage just beyond the confrontation line and only scattered damage

21     elsewhere, but in the areas that were controlled by Bosnian Serb forces,

22     there were virtually no mosques left intact.  There's one famous example

23     of an exception in a municipality that's outside of the scope of the

24     survey, the village of Donja Baljvine in Mrkonjic Grad municipality,

25     where local Serb residents stopped Serb paramilitaries from destroying

Page 22552

 1     the mosque.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Mr. Riedlmayer.  I have no further

 3     questions.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Ms. Sutherland.

 5             Very well.  Mr. Karadzic, before you begin, I have to mention

 6     that we continue to sit pursuant to Rule 15 bis today as well, and I also

 7     note the absence of Mr. Robinson today for the record.

 8             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Excellencies.  Good

10     morning to everyone.

11                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

12        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Riedlmayer, good morning.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, I think that the cold

14     air is still coming in, not directly at me, but I think it's more than

15     necessary.  Perhaps I'm just more sensitive because I am recovering, but

16     I think this should not be happening in December.  Perhaps we can arrange

17     to have the overall temperature in the courtroom just a couple of degrees

18     higher.  So I would kindly ask for the Registry to see if the temperature

19     can be a bit higher in the courtroom.

20        Q.   Mr. Riedlmayer --

21             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

22                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

23             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber will look into the matter.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Mr. Riedlmayer, are you a scientist?

Page 22553

 1        A.   No, I'm not -- not a scientist in that sense.  I -- my education

 2     is in the social sciences and the humanities, not in the natural

 3     sciences.

 4        Q.   And during your schooling, did you ever take any exams in

 5     statistics?

 6        A.   I did.

 7        Q.   So what exactly is your profession?

 8        A.   I'm an art documentation specialist.  This is what I've done for

 9     the last 26 years professionally.  I have a degree from the school of

10     library and information science, and as I published in the literature of

11     the field, that is my principal profession.

12        Q.   Thank you.  So you were given the task, and this is something

13     that you talk about in the first paragraph, that your task was to

14     document the damage inflicted on cultural and religious sites in the

15     communities of Bosnian Muslims and Bosnian Croats, meaning Catholics, at

16     least in 14 municipalities.  So it was your assignment to document.  Was

17     it also your task to document only the Muslim and Croatian religious

18     objects or sites?

19        A.   When I received this assignment, like the previous reports I

20     performed for other cases for this Tribunal, I asked for clarification as

21     to whether I should cover only the Bosnian Muslim and Bosnian Croat

22     related sites, or more generally, all cultural heritage, and I was

23     informed that my task was to document the sites that related to the

24     non-Serb communities.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

Page 22554

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Excuse the interruption, but Mr. Karadzic

 2     referred to 14 municipalities.  I'm wondering what report he's reading.

 3     Mr. Riedlmayer's report deals with 22 municipalities, and I don't see it

 4     in paragraph 1 of that report in any event.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Probably a mistake.  Yes, let's continue.

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  He may be referring to one -- one of the other

 7     six reports that Mr. Riedlmayer's done.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Mm-hmm.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is the destruction of the

10     cultural heritage in Bosnia and Herzegovina, copyright 2003,

11     Andras Riedlmayer.

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes.  That's another report.  Perhaps the

13     Krajisnik report or one of the others.

14             THE WITNESS:  That's -- yes, quite likely.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's possible, but I believe that

16     the main things remain unchanged.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Were you told thus not to investigate the damage on Serb

19     religious and cultural heritage, and were you never called upon to

20     testify in a case against Muslim and Croat military and political

21     leaders?

22        A.   I was told, as I just stated, to document the damage to the

23     cultural and religious heritage of the non-Serb communities and the -- in

24     the context of Bosnia, I did not testify against either Muslim or Croat

25     military or political leaders.  However, in the two other cases that I --

Page 22555

 1     I'm sorry, the three other cases that I testified on Kosovo, I did

 2     include the Serb heritage.  I was merely following the instructions that

 3     I received.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  So you say that you received instructions from the

 5     Prosecution, and then you say the findings and the conclusions in these

 6     reports are those of the author.  If I understood you correctly, the

 7     instructions were just as you stated them; right?

 8        A.   They were part of the terms of reference of my mission.  This is

 9     what I was asked to report on.  I assume because these are the ones that

10     relate to the charges in this case.

11        Q.   Thank you.  So you were asked to find and to document buildings

12     that are going to confirm the allegations contained in the indictment; is

13     that correct?

14        A.   I wouldn't put it in that manner.  I was asked to survey the

15     state of the heritage of the non-Serb communities in these

16     municipalities.  It was not prescribed to me whether or not they would

17     confirm or fail to confirm the charges.

18        Q.   But in lines 22 and 23 and 24 of page 17, that is precisely what

19     you've said, that you assume that you were given the assignment based on

20     the content of the indictment - is that correct? -  and which in that

21     case is in line with the requirements of the indictment; is that correct?

22             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Sutherland.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, Mr. Karadzic is clearly reading

24     from another report.  I have a spare copy of the redacted version of

25     Mr. Riedlmayer's report which is --

Page 22556

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Did he not refer to the transcript of today, page

 2     17, lines 22 --

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Precisely, yes.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  My apologies.  I don't know whether Mr. Karadzic

 5     wants this copy of the report that's actually in evidence at P4068.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Would you like to have one?

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that I do have it in

 8     English, but I made my notes in the Serbian version, but I do have a copy

 9     in English.  Thank you.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   All right.  Very well.  Did this imply an investigation to be

12     carried out about the perpetrators, the circumstances, and the intent?

13     More precisely, what were you able to conclude beyond any reasonable

14     doubt?

15        A.   The questions of -- of reasonable doubt, I assume, are something

16     for the Court to decide, as are questions of ultimate responsibility.

17     What I was able to conclude was factual and statistical conclusions about

18     the objects, about the buildings and institutions I was asked to report

19     on.  What my report does include is interviews with informants, some of

20     whom refer to responsibility questions, but those are not from me.  My

21     interviews with them had to do largely with the question of when these

22     objects were destroyed.  The things that I was trying to exclude is

23     either buildings that were destroyed before the war or after the war.

24     Much of this investigation occurred several years after the incidents

25     occurred, and therefore it was vital that I find out what the state of

Page 22557

 1     these buildings was at the conclusion of the war at least.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  You were able to establish beyond any reasonable

 3     doubt that something was demolished or knocked down; is that correct?

 4        A.   Yes.  And in a number of cases I was able, through observation,

 5     to establish how the building was destroyed, whether it was the result of

 6     blast or fire.

 7        Q.   Are you an expert who could establish such matters, or did you

 8     have access to an expert who would be able to establish these matters?

 9        A.   No, I am not a trained arson investigator, and I'm not an expert

10     in explosives.  However, I would say that I've been at this now for more

11     than a decade, and I have read the professional literature.  I have

12     visited and viewed well over a thousand destroyed buildings and have

13     developed a degree of expertise in it.  Most of my observations are based

14     on simple common sense.  If a building is missing its roof, the walls are

15     charred, and there are bits of burned wood embedded in the masonry, it is

16     an indication that there has been a fire.  I don't think one needs to

17     carry out scientific tests to establish that.  If there are large holes

18     in the walls and the missing masonry is cast at some distance, that, I

19     think, is a clear sign of explosion, and one does not need to be a

20     military expert.

21             I was very careful in the language I used to refer to blast,

22     because I'm not one to distinguish between different types of munition,

23     but given those limitations, I think I can draw some useful conclusions

24     from my observations.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Did you then establish the circumstances?  For

Page 22558

 1     example, earlier we just saw the new mosque in Hrustovo.  Did you know or

 2     do you know what was going on in Hrustovo?

 3        A.   That was not part of my investigation.  I -- I was out there to

 4     establish facts about buildings, not about the whole context of the

 5     conflict.

 6        Q.   So you did not determine whether fighting was going on at a

 7     particular location or not, and that photograph with a mortar hole is

 8     basically not explained, and it's not placed in context; is that correct?

 9        A.   I was able in many instances to determine things like were there

10     large numbers of bullet holes in a building or whether there were any

11     kind of explosive holes in the building, but, no, I don't know whether or

12     when there was a battle in the area or exactly what happened.  I think

13     that is ultimately something to be determined from other sources.

14        Q.   Thank you.  And you did not establish anything in terms of the

15     perpetrators; is that correct?

16        A.   No.  That was not my responsibility.  The best I could do is

17     establish the time when this happened, and I assume conclusions can be

18     drawn from that.

19        Q.   When you say that something is demolished in Serbian territory,

20     then the next step would be to say that this was demolished by the Serbs.

21     Are you able to tell us which Serbs, or at least are you able to tell us

22     whether this was the authorities or somebody else?  Did you establish

23     that it was the authorities that were behind these events?

24        A.   Okay.  Well, again, establishing responsibility is not my task as

25     an expert.  However, I can make the observation that, for example, in a

Page 22559

 1     number of places such as Prijedor, buildings were destroyed at a time

 2     when there was -- when the community was under full control of the

 3     Bosnian Serb authorities.  I'm aware in general outlines of the history

 4     of the Bosnian war, so I'm aware of that much.

 5             I also know that in a number of locations the destruction of the

 6     buildings was carried out after the initial blast or fire by the

 7     municipal authorities using the equipment of the municipality to remove

 8     the rubble.  So in that sense, yes, I can draw a certain limited number

 9     of conclusions.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Is that what you heard from the people,

11     Mr. Riedlmayer?

12             THE WITNESS:  That -- that is what I heard, and as in the example

13     of Novoseoci, I think the facts speak to the removal of the rubble.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   If you're not able to tell whether this was carried out,

17     supported, or executed by the authorities or the paramilitary forces, am

18     I correct then when I say that you were gathering evidence relating to

19     civil war and not against Serbs?  Because if that is the case, then I can

20     support you.

21        A.   I am not sure I understand your question, sir.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, rest assured that Mr. Riedlmayer has

23     testified in relation to the fact itself.  He didn't testify as to who is

24     responsible at all.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 22560

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   However, I am concerned about some conclusions and the manner of

 4     making the conclusions.  For example, you say that new mosques were less

 5     damaged than the old ones, and your interpretation is that this is

 6     because the old mosques were registered.  Is that the only

 7     interpretation, or is there some other possible interpretation?

 8        A.   I am open to other possible interpretations, but I haven't found

 9     one.

10        Q.   Since you are knowledgeable about Islam and Islamic culture, do

11     you know that mosques are barracks at the same time as well as

12     recruitment centres and weapons ammunition and explosion depots as well

13     as distribution points for weapons, and that these were mostly old

14     mosques that were being used while new mosques were not in a position to

15     be used for such purposes?

16        A.   I have not heard any such thing, but ...

17        Q.   For example, when a new mosque was opened in Kakanj in 1990, when

18     the Imam says publicly in a speech that this will not only be a house of

19     worship but also a barracks, you didn't notice things like that, did you?

20        A.   Kakanj was not one of the municipalities that I covered, and I'm

21     not aware of, you know, the contents of sermons.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Who was in power in Baljvine?  You said that this was

23     an exception that you noted.  You said that the authorities in Baljvine

24     managed to dissuade the paramilitaries from destroying the mosque.  Do

25     you know who was in power at the time in Mrkonjic Grad and Baljvine.

Page 22561

 1        A.   Okay.  I did not say that the authorities in Baljvine dissuaded

 2     the paramilitaries.  It was Serb residents standing up for their

 3     neighbours.  The information I have comes from a book by Svetlana Broz

 4     Croatia who interviewed the residents and included it in her book called:

 5     "Good People in an Evil Time."

 6        Q.   Did you know that the police in Bijeljina, after the paramilitary

 7     forces members were arrested in 1992, interrogated them about who

 8     destroyed the mosque in Bijeljina and why this was done?  There was also

 9     some talk about the copper from the mosque, and do you know that the

10     police did carry out an investigation into that matter?

11        A.   I'm not aware of the investigation.  However, I knew about what

12     happened to the mosque in Bijeljina.  In 1992, there was extensive

13     vandalism to mosques, but no mosques were destroyed.  The mosques in

14     Bijeljina were destroyed in the spring of 1993 when Bijeljina was fully

15     under control of the Bosnian Serb authorities, I believe, and there was

16     no fighting in the area.

17        Q.   You also talked about Brcko and Bijeljina as being under the

18     control of Bosnian Serb forces.  Are you familiar with the way the

19     authorities functioned in Bijeljina and Brcko, and are you aware of the

20     efforts of the Serbian authorities to eliminate the paramilitary forces

21     in those towns?

22        A.   That was not part of my study.

23        Q.   Mr. Riedlmayer, then you cannot say that they were fully under

24     the control of the Serb forces, can you?

25        A.   All I know is my background knowledge that at the time the

Page 22562

 1     mosques were destroyed that there was no fighting in the area.  As I say,

 2     my field survey was not meant to investigate all the circumstances of --

 3     of the destruction.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Nevertheless, I'd like us to go back to the question

 5     of professionalism and objectivity.  Are you interested in the outcome of

 6     this trial of mine?

 7        A.   I am following it as I follow many of the trials at the Tribunal,

 8     but I am not here to judge you.  That is the job of the Bench.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  However, on the whole, do you have an interest in the

10     outcome of proceedings against Serbs in Serbia?  Are you a proper

11     impartial witness?

12        A.   I am not a -- I don't have a specific interest that goes against

13     the interests of Serbs.  I do have an interest to see that justice is

14     done, and whether it's Serbs or Muslims or Croats or Albanians, I hope

15     that those who are responsible for crimes against humanity and other

16     violations of international law will be prosecuted and punished, but I am

17     no more in favour of sparing a non-Serb suspect than I am in sparing a

18     Serb suspect, and anybody who is charged and turns out to be not proven

19     guilty should be freed, in my opinion.

20        Q.   However, until now, you were involved to a great degree in work

21     against Serb structures.  I believe that your lecture today also serves

22     that purpose.  So far have you been very active in presenting different

23     variants of the Serb guilt?  Have you been doing that throughout the

24     world?

25        A.   Okay.  Well, to go specifically to the subject of my lecture

Page 22563

 1     today, it deals with issues of post-war reconstruction.  I don't see how

 2     that militates against Serb structures or anything else.  I was putting

 3     the finishing touches on the lecture yesterday, and there are quite a bit

 4     of contents in there that are critical of both Muslims and Croats.  The

 5     lecture is being delivered at the Meertens Institute of the Royal Dutch

 6     Academy of Sciences.  It is not part of a political conspiracy of any

 7     sort.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  I'm not talking about a conspiracy.  I'm talking

 9     about freelancers, as it were.  Can you confirm that you wrote a short

10     history of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

11        A.   I know the document to which you are referring.  It was

12     introduced already in the Milosevic case.  It is not a formal

13     publication.  It was written in 1993 and posted on a web site.  It is

14     meant to be a short pamphlet.  It's not part of my formal publication

15     record.  I tendered into evidence my CV -- or my CV's been tendered into

16     evidence, and in there you will find my formal writings, and I would

17     challenge you to find things in there that are anti-Serb.

18        Q.   Tell me this:  I'm not only interested in being anti -- in

19     someone being anti-Serb, but also I'm interested in competence as such.

20             Do you know what the social order was in Bosnia-Herzegovina at

21     the time of the Berlin Congress when Austro-Hungary was given the mandate

22     to enter Bosnia?  What social order was in place?

23        A.   Okay.  As it happens, I wrote my senior thesis in college on

24     that.  It was many years ago, and it was mainly a work on diplomatic

25     history, but I am aware that in the 1870s, in late Ottoman Bosnia, there

Page 22564

 1     were large landowners, and there were "kmets," the equivalent of serfs,

 2     who did not own land and who were badly exploited.  I know what the

 3     social order was.  I'm not sure, however, how that relates to my

 4     competence in writing an expert report.

 5        Q.   Can we see 1D04902.  That's that text.

 6             Let us summarise.  So you agree in Bosnia-Herzegovina at the time

 7     of the Berlin Congress feudalism was the social order of the day, right?

 8        A.   Well, feudalism is very specific to Western context, but, yes, it

 9     was definitely an inequitable distribution of land, and the vast majority

10     of the people were exploited.  This was in the 19th century.  The same

11     conditions in Russia.

12        Q.   Can we have a look at the next page of this document, please.

13             Do you agree that in Serbia already in 1804, in addition to this

14     liberation movement, there was also a bourgeoise revolution that had been

15     carried out?

16        A.   Okay.  Well, the 19th century revolutions in the various Balkan

17     countries all were a mixture of peasant revolts and the revolts of the

18     merchant class.  Karadjordje, the Serb leader who led the 1804

19     revolution, was himself a wealthy merchant.  He was -- he had aspiration

20     that came from his exposure to some of the ideas that were coming out of

21     the French revolution and enlightenment, so -- but again, I don't know

22     what the pertinence is to my report here.

23        Q.   Well, we shall see what it is, but I'm sure that you recall

24     Leopold Ranke's well-known writings, especially a paper entitled:  "The

25     Serb Revolution of 1804"; right?

Page 22565

 1        A.   I can't say that I read that.  It was not part of my speciality,

 2     really.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Can we have a look at the second paragraph here where

 4     you say that Serbia in 1389 [In English] "... had suffered a humiliating

 5     defeat at the hands of the Turks at the famous battle of Kosovo and had

 6     been reduced to the status of an Ottoman vassal."

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] Do you know that at that point in time there was

 9     a draw, and France was celebrating the victory of a Christian army and

10     that Serbia survived for another 100 years after that?

11        A.   Okay.  Well, now that we're back in the 14th century, yes, I know

12     that at the end of the battle both the Serb leader and the Ottoman Sultan

13     were dead and that Serbia did not completely disappear from the map for

14     roughly another 70 or 80 years.  However, during that period, it was a

15     vassal state of the Ottoman Empire.  I would remind you again, though,

16     that what you are looking at here is a very informal history.  It covers

17     the Balkans from the late Roman times to 1993 in a total of about six and

18     a half A4 pages without footnotes.  So you can't expect to see elaborate

19     details.

20        Q.   All right.  Then we're going to abandon that.  You also refer to

21     King Tvrtko.  Do you know that King Tvrtko was a Serb King?

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour.  Sorry, I've refrained from

24     objecting, but really, what is the relevance of this to Mr. Riedlmayer's

25     expert report?

Page 22566

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   All right.  Let's move on to page 3, paragraph 3.  This is what

 4     you say there:

 5             [In English] "The Muslim Slavs saw no place for themselves in

 6     this proposed new order and continued to advocate the old Bosnian ideal

 7     of a pluralist multi-confessional society.  For obvious reasons, the

 8     latter was also deorientation favoured by Austro-Hungarian authorities."

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I'm sorry, but unless this goes an

10     issue relating to Mr. Riedlmayer, then I don't see the relevance.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am trying to show that

12     Mr. Riedlmayer is an activist who is laying a foundation for condemning

13     Serbs on each and every occasion.  This paragraph shows that

14     Mr. Riedlmayer believes that the feudal system in Bosnia-Herzegovina,

15     where Christians did not have land or any rights whatsoever, was an ideal

16     of a multi-ethnic and multi-religious society.  However, that was slavery

17     for Christians.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, how does it relate to his report?  In

19     this regard I need to correct what I have said earlier on.  It's

20     transcript page 22.  I've forgot the lines.  I said that Mr. Riedlmayer

21     didn't testify as to who is responsible at all, but even if as a matter

22     he may have done, however, what I meant was that the Chamber would not

23     rely on Mr. Riedlmayer's evidence in finding who is responsible for

24     destruction.

25             This -- I don't see any point of going into this detail about the

Page 22567

 1     history of Serbia or Bosnia and Herzegovina, so let's come to the

 2     important points, relevant points, Mr. Karadzic.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Then I'm going to skip

 4     over all of those periods.  However, what is of exceptional importance to

 5     me is to see whether this witness is impartial, whether he is a proper

 6     witness as such, so I would like us to see how Mr. Riedlmayer speaks

 7     about the Serbs during the course of the Second World War.

 8             Page 4, please, of this document, paragraph 3.  Can we please

 9     have page 4, paragraph 3.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   The second paragraph speaks about what Ustasha Croatia was, and

12     what you say at the bottom of this paragraph is that as part of a

13     short-lived all Muslim SS division -- you're probably talking about the

14     Handzar Division.  Do you know that that was the most cruel division of

15     all and that they were there for two years?

16        A.   I know about the Handzar Division, yes.

17        Q.   However, in the very next paragraph you equate Serbia and Croatia

18     in the Second World War; is that right?  You say that a similar campaign

19     was carried on under General Nedic, who operated concentration camps for

20     Jews, non-Serbs, and his Serb political opponents; right?

21        A.   That is correct.  I'm -- by doing that, I'm not equating

22     anything.  I'm simply describing what I believe to be a matter of

23     established fact.  The Croatian regime under Pavelic had its own

24     particular evils and so did Nedic.  It is a fact that there were

25     concentration camps operated by Nedic, and it is a fact that they

Page 22568

 1     persecuted Jews as well as Serbo opponents, and the fact is that they

 2     collaborated.  Like General Petain in France, Nedic was obsessed with the

 3     fact that in World War I so much of Serbia's youth had been lost on

 4     battle fronts, and his collaboration in large part stemmed from that fear

 5     that this slaughter would be related.  At the same time just like Petain,

 6     he had very right-wing opinions and in many ways sympathised with the far

 7     right and with the social ideas of the Nazis.  So by saying that I'm not

 8     saying he was the same as Pavelic, but certainly both of them were, in

 9     their own manner, collaborators.

10        Q.   Well, was this camp for Jews that was run by the Serb government,

11     even that kind of government, Nedic's government, where was there a camp

12     of that kind?

13             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, it's not the time for us to discuss

14     those matters.  Let's come to the issues that Mr. Riedlmayer discussed in

15     his evidence in chief, please.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Then I kindly ask that we have a

17     document shown.  I really have to show how partial Mr. Riedlmayer is, how

18     anti-Serb and partial he is, and these are dangerous things, and they are

19     followed by bombs.  First satinisation [as interpreted] and then bombs.

20     And this is only the beginning.  So Mr. Riedlmayer has an interest indeed

21     in the outcome of these proceedings.

22             I'm going to abandon this topic, but I would just like to see a

23     document before that, 1D4922, to show that things like this are dangerous

24     and highly detrimental and wrong.  1D4922.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 22569

 1        Q.   Do you agree, Mr. Riedlmayer, that this is a map of the Yugoslav

 2     territories in the Second World War?

 3        A.   It is.

 4        Q.   Do you see a difference between Serbia and CroatiaCroatia is

 5     an independent state --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, I don't see any relevance in this

 7     document.  Please move on to your next topic.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, the camp that

 9     Mr. Riedlmayer is speaking of is in Belgrade, but it is in the State of

10     Croatia.  You see how far the Croatian state goes, and it is under --

11             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, I said it's not relevant.  Please move

12     on to your next topic.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this map be admitted simply so

14     that the Trial Chamber can have it as such?

15             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber has given its ruling as to the

16     relevance.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm a bit perplexed.  How come I

18     cannot challenge professionalism and credibility?

19             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, are you challenging that the facts

20     that certain mosques referred to by Mr. Riedlmayer were really destroyed?

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What I'm challenging are the

22     implications stemming from certain conclusions made by Mr. Riedlmayer,

23     implications that this has to do with the Serb authorities, an organised

24     state, planning.  First of all, I can prove what the foundation for such

25     a basis -- what the basis for such a position is and then how and why it

Page 22570

 1     is wrong.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE KWON:  I note the time, and the Chamber will have a -- take

 4     a break for half an hour and resume at five to 11.00.

 5                           --- Recess taken at 10.24 a.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  May I return briefly to a

 9     matter the Court raised at the commencement of the session.  I will raise

10     it in general terms as the -- as the Chamber did.  I am confident we are

11     talking about the same matter, and I wish to advise the Chamber that the

12     Prosecution has -- does not oppose the motion.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

14             JUDGE BAIRD:  Dr. Karadzic, the Chamber thinks that it should

15     reassure you that the conclusions that could be drawn from the evidence

16     of the witness as to Serb responsibility for the destruction of the

17     mosques would not be considered by the Chamber.  As the witness rightly

18     said, the establishment of responsibility is not his task as an expert.

19             The President said it before the break, but we think we should

20     repeat it just so that you are fully apprised of the situation.  Thank

21     you.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That you, Your Excellencies.  Let

24     me wrap up the issue of history with one question.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 22571

 1        Q.   Is it true, as the last paragraph purports to state, that you

 2     wrote that pamphlet with a view to having the embargo on the -- on arms

 3     for Muslims lifted?

 4        A.   Are you still referring to the document you displayed earlier?

 5        Q.   Yes, the short history of Bosnia.

 6        A.   Could I please see the last paragraph, because I don't recall it.

 7     It's been many years.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  1D4902.  Not -- a brief history.

 9             THE ACCUSED:  79.  Last page, please.  Not really.  One less.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   It's the third paragraph from the bottom.

12             [In English] "Initiative to lift the arms embargo against

13     Bosnia's government and call for forceful international intervention to

14     end the conflict had been continually blocked in the UN and the other

15     international forums."

16             [Interpretation] Look at the entire paragraph where you speak in

17     favour of the embargo being lifted; i.e., you oppose the positions of all

18     those countries that would like the embargo to stay in place; right?

19        A.   That was based on my understanding of Article 51 of Chapter VII

20     of the United Nations Charter, which I believe I cite elsewhere here,

21     which states that the right of self-defence of Member States is by no

22     means denied until such a time as when the Security Council can establish

23     peace and security.  I'm paraphrasing, but that's the gist of it.  And

24     the fact is that in 1993 and subsequently, the Security Council did not

25     succeed in its task of imposing peace and security, and therefore I

Page 22572

 1     believed at the time that the arms embargo was counter-productive.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  However, it seems to me that this arises from your

 3     understanding of the interior structure of Bosnia.  You say in several

 4     places that this is the territory under the occupation of the Bosnian

 5     Serbs.  Do you not understand that the Bosnian Serbs were the population

 6     in Bosnia that was there for the longest period of time and which covered

 7     65 per cent of the territory?  In other words, they were not in a -- in

 8     another's country.  They were in their own country, and who were they

 9     supposed to be defending themselves from?  It was an internal conflict.

10        A.   Your Honours, I'm not here to argue the merits of the Bosnian

11     war.  There are a number of things in the question that I could take

12     issue on, the figure of 65 per cent of the territory or the rather

13     pointless argument of who was there first, but I don't see how this has a

14     bearing to my testimony.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Yes.

16             Mr. Karadzic.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In that case, we'll go back to the

18     report itself.  I'll call up several documents which speak to the

19     credibility and partiality, and I hope I'll have your leave to do so.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   In item 1 of your report, background to survey, you say:

22             [In English] "During the conflict in 1992-1995, conflict in

23     Bosnia, there were reports by various parties concerning the widespread

24     destruction of cultural and religious heritage."

25             [Interpretation] Therefore, there were also reports about the

Page 22573

 1     destruction of Serb buildings; is that right?

 2        A.   That is correct.

 3        Q.   Do you see that there is a link between the destruction of one

 4     set of buildings with that of the other set of buildings?  Don't you see

 5     that there is some sort of a retaliatory nature?  You did speak about

 6     that in the trial against President Milosevic.  Do you make that

 7     connection, or do you believe this to be a state plan?

 8        A.   As I recall from my testimony in the Milosevic case, I pointed

 9     out that there were definite instances of tit for tat destruction at

10     specific times and specific places, but it was not the case in most of

11     the municipalities.  I can think, for example, of the early phase of the

12     war along the Sava River in the north and south of Mostar in 1992 where

13     you had precisely this kind of thing going on between Croat militias and

14     Serb forces where, for example, in Mostar the two Catholic churches in

15     Mostar were hit by the Serb forces during the 1992 siege, and after that

16     Croat nationalists blew up the Serb cathedral and the old Orthodox

17     church.

18             Similarly, along the Sava River there were such things, and I

19     would say I saw some traces of this during my survey, although it was not

20     my task for the Tribunal to look at destruction of Serb churches.  When I

21     went to localities which had such signs, I recorded them because I was

22     curious for my own research.  So, for example, in Bukvik near Brcko there

23     was a burned-out church.

24             Finally in the very end stage of the war, in September/October of

25     1995, there were a number of Serb churches that were attacked in the

Page 22574

 1     western part of Bosnia.  This is in Sanski Most municipality, mainly, and

 2     Kljuc municipality, where the Bosnian Army broke out of the Bihac pocket

 3     in the last weeks of the war, and at that point a number of Serb churches

 4     were burned, and I indeed have a collection of photos of those and plan

 5     to do something with them, but that was not part of my brief for this

 6     report.

 7             On the other hand, I would underline that in most places in

 8     Bosnia, the destruction was very one-sided, and I would also keep the

 9     time sequence in mind.

10        Q.   Well, do you recall when Zitomislic as a very old monastery, I

11     think dating back to the 16th century, when Zitomislic - which was a very

12     important place for worship for the Serbs - when it was destroyed?

13        A.   As I recall it was destroyed in the early summer of 1992 by Croat

14     forces.  I actually wrote something about that.

15        Q.   You see, you refer to the context, and that is a good thing.

16     However, did you not notice certain patterns?  For instance, you say that

17     the Catholic churches in Western Bosnia and along the Sava were

18     destroyed, and most of the destruction came about in 1991 before the war

19     in Bosnia broke out, and in 1995.  Did you notice that this was connected

20     with the outbreak of the conflicts in Croatia and with the onset of

21     refugees both in 1991 and in 1995?

22        A.   Well, actually, I would correct that the -- there was a very

23     small amount of destruction in 1991 as the war in Croatia spilled over,

24     but most of the destruction actually happened in 1992.  The second wave

25     of destruction happened in 1995, did coincide with the renewed outbreak

Page 22575

 1     of fighting in Croatia.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  In contrast to that, you observed, and rightly so,

 3     although I'm not sure your interpretation was correct, that the Catholic

 4     churches at Pale and along the Drina and Rogatica and at Cajnice, I

 5     believe, were not destroyed.  Do you agree that this was the case because

 6     in that area there were no refugees arriving from Croatia; in other

 7     words, there was no fleeing from the Croats, and there were no refugees

 8     present whose churches had been destroyed in their native areas?

 9        A.   It's a two-part question, and I would like to answer part one

10     first.

11             I believe that the churches at Pale and Rogatica and Cajnice

12     suffered only minor vandalism, in large part because there were hardly

13     any Croats living in that area.  In most places where attacks occurred,

14     these occurred in the context of attacks against those communities, and

15     in Cajnice, for example, I think there were no more than a handful of

16     Croats living.

17             The second part you asked about, the refugees, I'm not aware of

18     to what extent refugees prayed -- played a role.  As I said, I'm not in

19     the business of tracking down individual perpetrators.

20        Q.   Thank you.  I would by no means blame it on the refugees.

21     However, the influx of refugees does affect the mind-set and changes the

22     climate, does it not?  An influx of refugees with their tragic stories

23     does have an impact on the mood in general.  Would you agree?

24        A.   No doubt.

25        Q.   Thank you.  You've just mentioned vandalism and the graffiti.  Do

Page 22576

 1     you believe that it was the authorities who wrote the graffiti or whether

 2     it was done on their orders, and do you think that the emergence of

 3     graffiti in the world has anything in any way to do with the authorities?

 4     I'm referring to paragraph 42, although there are others where this is

 5     mentioned.

 6        A.   Okay.  I merely noted their presence.  The vandalism as such

 7     could be quite extensive.  For example, in the church in Pale, the saint

 8     statues were broken.  The same thing was observed at the church in Brcko.

 9     In a number of other places, I believe that -- I don't believe it was the

10     authorities that would have done such a thing.  On the other hand, I

11     believe it is the responsibility of authorities to prevent and punish

12     such things.

13        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 40, you speak of the removal of the

14     rubble.  Do you agree that it was in keeping with the rules of civilian

15     protection that the debris that was the result of the general destruction

16     in town should be removed and the public areas cleared up?

17        A.   Well, I won't comment on what the policy was or should have been.

18     On the other hand, I do recall that both in Bijeljina and Banja Luka I've

19     seen videos of how this was carried out.  In Bijeljina, for example, you

20     can see the old mosque in town being knocked down by bulldozers when it

21     was still substantially standing, so I don't think it's merely a matter

22     of public safety.  It was, I believe, an active participation in the

23     destruction.

24             In a number of places, not only in that one village I mentioned,

25     but in big cities, the rubble of the mosques was taken to the municipal

Page 22577

 1     refuse dump and buried under tonnes of garbage.  Again, if the

 2     authorities had any respect for these monuments, they would merely remove

 3     the rubble and keep it somewhere to perhaps be used in reconstruction.

 4     So that's about as far as I can go in speculating about the authorities'

 5     actions just based on what I've collected.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  But when you say that there was a case of a building

 7     apparently standing, don't you agree that it should be the expert on the

 8     statics that should calculate whether it was innocuous for the general

 9     public?  Don't you think that it would have been up to them to decide the

10     matter?

11        A.   I think we're veering into the realm of speculation, but I do

12     have some experience with architecture, and the simple way of preventing

13     an unstable building from hurting anybody is to put a fence around it.

14        Q.   And if there is no chance of having a building reconstructed,

15     would this not have been the reason to remove the rubble?

16        A.   Well, in many of these cases the buildings were listed monuments

17     of historical importance.  I would believe that in any orderly

18     administration it would have been taken for granted that these sites

19     would be preserved and studied for possible reconstruction.

20        Q.   In paragraph 31, you speak of the minarets that were damaged.

21     Did you establish or did you have any sort of information to the effect

22     that the mosques, and specifically minarets, were used as locations for

23     machine-gun emplacements or nests?

24        A.   I didn't have any specific information to that effect.  However,

25     wherever minarets were still standing, I took careful note to see whether

Page 22578

 1     there were bullet holes in them or in the building, and one would expect

 2     that if there were battles going on around the building that small arms

 3     would be involved.  Frankly, I'm not a military expert, but I would think

 4     that a minaret would make a very poor position for somebody with a

 5     machine-gun.  It's a narrow staircase, and usually the balcony is very

 6     exposed.  So I -- that's about as far as I want to go on that.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Did you observe, and, if so, what specifically with

 8     regard to blasts?  You said that in most of the cases the explosives were

 9     placed within the interior, right, and that the explosions happened from

10     within the interior of the mosque.

11        A.   Actually, I did not say that.  I said that the explosives were

12     placed inside the stairwell of the minaret, not inside the mosque.  I am

13     sure there are instances where mosques were blown up by explosives from

14     within, but for the most part when you have a building like that, the

15     signs are of, first, fire, and then blasts of the walls, and it's not the

16     same thing as of the blowing up of the minarets.  Very often the minarets

17     would be felled in such a way that they would fall across the mosque and

18     smash the walls and the roof.  I have a number of examples of that.  And

19     I believe the point was the destruction of the mosque.  It was not an

20     accidental or coincidental thing.

21        Q.   I'm asking you this because it is our position based on the

22     information we got that some of the mosques contained weapons and

23     explosives and, therefore, were destroyed as a result.  In some cases the

24     damage was extensive and inflicted on the adjacent structures.  Were you

25     able to observe anything of that sort?

Page 22579

 1        A.   Well, again it's a two-part question.  The first part that they

 2     contained weapons and explosives, I have not seen evidence of that, and

 3     I've certainly not seen any confirmed stories about that.  In any case, I

 4     was not in a position to investigate that.

 5             As far as the damage being extensive and inflicted on the

 6     adjacent structures, one example is something I showed in court today,

 7     the Aladza mosque in Foca, where in 1996 still surrounding buildings had

 8     signs of damage from the blast, but I would note that the Aladza mosque

 9     in Foca was destroyed some months after the take-over of Foca by the VRS,

10     and so it would amaze me to find that there were still Muslims harbouring

11     weapons in a mosque in a town that was already under the control of their

12     adversaries.

13        Q.   My position is somewhat different when it comes to the strength

14     of the explosion.  Do you know that, for instance, the Catholic church in

15     Doboj, when it was destroyed a great many structures around it were

16     destroyed in the process?

17        A.   I know that the Catholic church in Doboj was annihilated by a

18     blast.  By the time I went to Doboj in 2002, there was no damage to be

19     seen of surrounding houses, but I don't exclude that they existed.  I did

20     talk to the parish priest who recounted to me how it was destroyed.

21        Q.   It is my thesis, Mr. Riedlmayer, that this was done by

22     unprofessional, inept persons who laid out large amounts of explosives

23     and in an unprofessional way.  Do you agree with me that professionals

24     would have gone about doing this differently?

25        A.   Well, it's a lot of assumptions, sir.  I do know of accounts of

Page 22580

 1     destruction elsewhere which was carried out by professionals.  For

 2     example, the mosques in Banja Luka which were all destroyed during

 3     curfew, and according to one account from an informant the Ferhadija

 4     mosque in Banja Luka was roped off before it was destroyed, and residents

 5     in neighbouring buildings were instructed to open their windows so they

 6     wouldn't break.  So that would strike me as a more professional approach,

 7     I guess.

 8        Q.   Do you know of a single building which was destroyed in broad

 9     daylight and professionally, and do you know of any such heroes who would

10     have boasted of having blown up structures, or was it, in fact, all done

11     clandestinely and at night?

12        A.   Except for a small number of instances, I have dates of

13     destruction but not times of day.  And that's all I can say with respect

14     to your question.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Did you hear of anyone boasting of having done as

16     much or of being proud about it, or was that too concealed?

17        A.   I did read a lengthy interview published in "Salam" magazine with

18     someone who claimed to be part of a crew destroying a mosque in Prijedor

19     and described how they had orders to do it.  They arrived with their

20     tools.  They set to work.  They put Black Sabbath on the mosque public

21     announcement system, they took out anything that was movable, and then

22     destroyed it.  He seemed quite proud of it.

23             I didn't include it in my reports because, first of all, it was

24     an interview with someone with a pseudonym; and secondly, the building

25     wasn't specified; but finally, also, because it had had no real bearing

Page 22581

 1     as to the specific monuments in my survey, but since you asked ...

 2        Q.   But that hero spoke under a pseudonym, did he not?

 3        A.   Yes, indeed.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  I'm a bit puzzled by the statistics.  For instance,

 5     you say out of 200 or I don't know how many mosques, 107 were damaged and

 6     a high percentage is stated.  I'm just looking for it, but you do

 7     remember that, don't you?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   I asked you about the statistics for this reason:  Had you

10     reviewed only what these 107 mosques, your hit would have been 100

11     per cent; right?  Is it not a bit unusual to say out of such and such a

12     number of those reviewed, there is a high percentage?  Well, the

13     percentage would even have been higher.  In fact, it would have been

14     higher had you gone and looked at only those 107, right?

15        A.   I don't understand your point, sir.

16        Q.   I'm trying to say that you chose 120, 107 of which were

17     destroyed, and that's a high percentage, but in relation to what?

18             JUDGE KWON:  Let us see the passage first.

19             Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour I was about to ask for a cite,

21     please.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise.  I will find this.

23     The witness knows this, but I will find it.

24             THE WITNESS:  Ah, yes.  Paragraph 26, I believe, sir, in the

25     English.

Page 22582

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Where you refer to 266 mosques.

 2             THE WITNESS:  Right.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Of these 125.

 4             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Is this the passage you refer to,

 6     Mr. Karadzic?

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, but this is something that

 8     recurs in several -- in several places.  I think out of 120, 107 were

 9     found to be damaged, but this paragraph, too, states that out of such and

10     such a number of inspected mosques, do you agree that that variable of

11     inspected mosques is quite a flexible term and that it would be difficult

12     to base a conclusion on something like that?

13        A.   Well, sir, if you read my report carefully, you will see that I

14     state in an earlier paragraph, and I'm sorry, I don't have the number in

15     front of me, in most of the municipalities we went to, and I'm saying

16     "we" because I had a driver, I managed to survey the great majority of

17     the sites.  In almost every municipality I was able to interview the

18     local council of the Islamic Community or the local parish priest who

19     then provide a list of the houses of worship in their area and offer to

20     guide me to them.

21             If there are intact mosques that I somehow missed I would be

22     delighted to hear, but I don't think there were any.

23        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 14, you say that you toured 49 per cent

24     of the localities, and you described 51 per cent on the basis of

25     information from other sources; is that correct?

Page 22583

 1        A.   That's correct.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Did you have a Serb guide who could also give you

 3     some information, or did you get your information exclusively from the

 4     religious communities that were affected?

 5        A.   No.  I got information from a great variety of sources.  I got it

 6     from the institute for the protection of monuments.  As far as Serb

 7     sources go, in a number of municipalities I took great care to acquire

 8     cadastral -- extracts from the cadastral registers to make sure that the

 9     empty site I was looking at had been a mosque or a church.  So I did not

10     entirely rely on the religious communities.  However, I must say that

11     since they were the primary interested parties, they were, therefore, a

12     particularly forthcoming source.

13        Q.   In paragraph 22, you even mention the period which is included in

14     the indictment, and you say that no mosques were found that survived the

15     war.  You're talking about 15 per cent and only 5 per cent is being

16     assessed as being only lightly damaged.  Is this deliberate that you are

17     referring to the period of the indictment or was this a slip on your

18     part?

19        A.   No.  The period of the indictment was part of my terms of

20     reference.  I did, as I indicated earlier, make every effort to exclude

21     buildings that had been damaged either before or after the war, but the

22     active period is the period of the war.

23        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 23, you state that mosques with minarets

24     are visible from afar.  Are you able to say whether other locations,

25     other buildings like mektebs, mejtefs are also visible from afar, even if

Page 22584

 1     they don't have these outside exterior visible attributes?  Are they also

 2     easy to clearly define and classify by -- by their purpose just like

 3     mosques with minarets are?

 4        A.   Well, sir, as I state in my report mektebs and mesjids, which

 5     often don't have minarets, had a lower rate of destruction than did the

 6     mosque with the minarets, and I assume that is in large part because they

 7     were not easy to identify from the outside.  Where they were destroyed, I

 8     assume it was either because people went in or people had local

 9     knowledge, but I don't want to speculate.  I cite examples of a number of

10     these and they're in my database, and you're free to cite specifics and

11     we can talk about them.

12        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 31, you say that it was frequently said

13     that all mosques in the territory controlled by Bosnian Serb forces

14     during the war were completely destroyed, which is not always the case.

15     You listed some municipalities where some buildings not knocked down.  In

16     that case could it be assumed, if we're talking about state policy, that

17     people in those municipalities were disobeying the central authorities or

18     that that perhaps was not a state policy at all?

19        A.   Again, I don't want to speculate about motives, but first of all

20     I would like to correct something in your question.

21             The point of paragraph 31 that I intended, at least, is to point

22     out that not everything was completely levelled to the ground.  "Razed"

23     in English is not merely destroyed.  It means the building no longer

24     stands.  It's my category "completely destroyed," there's nothing left.

25     And there was a lot of hyperbole after the war where people exaggerated

Page 22585

 1     the extent of destruction.  In fact, it was relatively uncommon for

 2     mosques in smaller villages to be completely levelled to the ground.  It

 3     did happen.  It was -- this was much more often seen in larger

 4     settlements.  The sole place I know where the -- there is a report of the

 5     local population resisting an attempt to destroy a mosque is that village

 6     we talked about in Mrkonjic Grad, Baljvine.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  The mosque in Pale was not destroyed either; is that

 8     correct?

 9        A.   I don't have access to my database.  I believe it was a lightly

10     damaged building, just vandalised but not destroyed.

11        Q.   Thank you.  You mentioned Novoseoci today.  Do you know when the

12     men from Novoseoci were died or were killed?

13        A.   I don't know when they were killed, but I did read testimony.  I

14     believe it was in the -- it's listed in my footnotes, it was either

15     Brdjanin or Krajisnik, probably Krajisnik case, which says that they were

16     last seen alive in September of 1992.  I believe the story was, and Your

17     Honours may have heard testimony about this already, so there's no point

18     in me trying to summarise it, but as I recall the women and the men were

19     separated.  The women were forced to walk across the confrontation line

20     to Sarajevo, and the men were not seen again until their bodies were

21     discovered under the rubble of the mosque at the dump in Ivan Polja.

22        Q.   You also used transcripts - is that right? - when you were

23     drafting your report; is that correct?

24        A.   Yes.  I referred to transcripts at several places.  I did not use

25     them extensively, but I did use them from when it was relevant to

Page 22586

 1     discussing a particular building such as, for example, Novoseoci.

 2        Q.   And you were given the transcripts by the Prosecution; is that

 3     correct?

 4        A.   I was not given the transcripts by anyone.  I did what much of

 5     the public can do.  I went to the Tribunal's web site and I used its

 6     search engine.  It's available to anyone.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Can you recall the witnesses whose transcripts you

 8     used as a source of information?

 9        A.   No.  I merely noted down the passage.  I don't remember names.

10        Q.   And to which municipalities did the transcripts refer?

11        A.   The one example I -- I remember is Novoseoci here but there may

12     be others.  Novoseoci is in Sokolac.

13        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 55 you state that some scripts or the

14     library in the old mosque in Janja were destroyed.  Do you know that

15     throughout the whole war Janja was inhabited only by Muslims and that

16     they still live there?

17        A.   I visited Janja, and I talked to people there, which is how come

18     I know as much as I do about the manuscripts that were destroyed there

19     when the mosque was bulldozed.

20             I also heard from the people I spoke with and in media accounts I

21     read that there were expulsions of people from Janja during the war.

22     There are, as I recall, three entries from my database that deal with

23     Janja.  The old mosque in Janja, the new mosque in Janja, and the

24     archives and library of the Islamic Community in Janja, and all three of

25     them were destroyed.  I have extensive photographs.  So -- including one

Page 22587

 1     photograph which was taken while the mosque -- the old mosque, the

 2     biggest mosque in town, was being bulldozed.  So that helps establish how

 3     and when it was done.  The photograph came with a date stamp.

 4             There was also published information about some of the

 5     manuscripts in Janja from a manuscript survey done before the war.

 6        Q.   Very well.  We will complete that with others.  In the same

 7     paragraph you also refer to Kula Grad in Zvornik.  Do you know that

 8     Kula Grad was in the hands of the Muslims for a long time, that they

 9     turned it into a front, they fired from there, and they could have and

10     perhaps they did evacuate everything that they wanted to evacuate from

11     there?

12        A.   I know that after the fall of Zvornik there was resistance in

13     Kula Grad.  I'm not aware of the exact history of the conflict in that

14     particular area, and certainly I don't know of anything that was

15     evacuated.

16             What I can speak to are the three monuments in Kula Grad.  One

17     was the one you were referring to, the shrine of Hasan Kaimija, and I

18     had -- I visited it.  I also had extensive photographs from before,

19     during, and after its destruction and reconstruction.  And the second

20     monument in Kula Grad was the Kula Grad mosque of which very little was

21     left standing.  It was destroyed by a blast.  And the third one was the

22     mosque of Avdo Tuhcic, which is on a hill top behind the -- Kula Grad and

23     that, too, was badly damaged in the war and had to be reconstructed

24     after.  So that's what I can speak to specifically.  I cannot really

25     speak to what kind of fighting happened in that area.  It's not what I'm

Page 22588

 1     reporting on.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Can we look at D1606 briefly.  Who informed you about

 3     Kula Grad?  Who was your guide?

 4        A.   My guide to Kula Grad was, I believe, the chief Imam of -- of

 5     Zvornik.

 6        Q.   He did not inform you that there was an Orthodox church there and

 7     that it was no longer there at the time, and he did not inform you that

 8     Zvornik got its name after the church bell tower?

 9        A.   Well, I'm aware of the story mainly because Branko Grujic, the

10     wartime mayor of Zvornik, gave extensive interviews in which he spoke

11     about the medieval Orthodox church that allegedly stood in the citadel

12     and which he was hoping to rebuild.

13             When I went to the citadel, there was already the beginnings of

14     that with a bell tower set up, but the Orthodox church was not destroyed

15     in this war.  It disappeared centuries ago.  So I don't know what the

16     relevance is to my report.

17        Q.   Mr. Riedlmayer, it was frequently restored, and it was frequently

18     knocked down.  Did anybody inform you about that?

19        A.   I'm not aware of its detailed building history, but do I know

20     that it was not in existence in the late 20th century.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please look at this document which talks

22     about combat actions from the Zvornik citadel and where a request is made

23     to fire at the Kula because there were attacks and fire coming from the

24     Kula and it was necessary to neutralise that?

25        A.   Okay.  Well, Your Honours, Kula Grad is actually the old Turkish

Page 22589

 1     citadel above Zvornik.  Zvornik is on the riverbank of the Drina and goes

 2     up the hillside a ways, and then the old fortress, which is in a ruinous

 3     state, is on top of the mountain overlooking it.  So it is a naturally

 4     defensible position.  I accept that.

 5             The damage, however, the blown up mosque and the damage to the

 6     Hasan Kaimija shrine looked very extensive.  It didn't look like it had

 7     been hit in any kind of crossfire.

 8        Q.   But you're not a military expert, are you?

 9        A.   I don't claim to be.

10        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 74 here, you talk about Mr. Besic's map,

11     and I'm interested whether you explored also that side of our civil war,

12     the hostility directed against religious symbols, or were you just

13     looking for evidence of Serbian guilt?

14        A.   Exactly what was the question?  How is the destruction of

15     religious buildings a separate category from the destruction of religious

16     symbols?  I am not sure what you're aiming at.

17        Q.   My question refers to this:  Did you explore or investigate that

18     received our civil war, or were you just looking for evidence of Serbian

19     guilt?

20        A.   I believe we went through this territory already, where I

21     discussed that the terms of reference for my survey had to do with the

22     destruction of non-Serb cultural sites, that I nevertheless remain

23     interested professionally and as a researcher in what happened to the

24     cultural heritage of all communities in Bosnia, and, so, yes, I'm aware.

25     I did not do a field survey for the Tribunal on it because I was not

Page 22590

 1     asked to.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Did you draft any texts about the damage of Serb

 3     religious and cultural heritage, incidentally?  Did you ever publish

 4     anything about that?

 5        A.   Yes.  As a matter of fact, I wrote a small essay on Zitomislic,

 6     and with respect to Serb heritage in Kosovo and now Bosnia, I've

 7     published a number of things.  I've not yet published anything more

 8     detailed about damage to Serb cultural property in Bosnia, but it is my

 9     intention to include it in a more general account of cultural damage

10     during the war, which I may work up into a web site or an article or

11     perhaps even a book.

12        Q.   Thank you.  I believe that perhaps I can create confusion here

13     because I have a different text printed up, but I'm interested whether

14     you'll stand by or abandon the assertion that monuments of major cultural

15     and historic significance were intended for destruction.  Did you

16     establish that, and did you establish on whose intention they were to be

17     destroyed?

18        A.   Okay.  Well, the major monuments, and here I'm referring to the

19     ones that had actually been designated for legal protection within the

20     former Yugoslav system, as I described, were damaged at a higher rate.

21     Whether that speaks to intent or otherwise I will leave to the Court to

22     decide, but it is a statistical fact.  There were no world heritage sites

23     in Bosnia before the war.  There has been one added since then, the

24     reconstructed bridge at Mostar, but, yes, there was cultural heritage of

25     major significance destroyed such as the Aladza mosque, which apparently

Page 22591

 1     was under consideration for a designation for UNESCO protection.  So the

 2     answer in short, yes, there were significant cultural losses and not just

 3     to the local communities and that the buildings of greater historical or

 4     cultural importance were disproportionally damaged.

 5        Q.   Do you have an explanation for that?  An example would be that

 6     older buildings are in more densely populated urban areas, perhaps, where

 7     the antagonisms are greater.

 8        A.   Not necessarily.  I showed at least one example of such a

 9     building, the mosque at Kuslat, which was certainly far from any urban

10     area and virtually inaccessible.  I can think of others such as the

11     mosque at Ustikolina which is in a tiny village and was reputed to be the

12     oldest mosque in Bosnia and was totally destroyed.  So not necessarily.

13     I think if one had to speculate about an explanation about why such

14     things attracted more attention is perhaps because they were better known

15     and, therefore, attractive in -- in the bad sense.

16        Q.   And the Ustikolina mosque that you say is the oldest, when was

17     that built?

18        A.   It was originally built in the late 15th century.  Dates such as

19     1449 are mentioned, but it's likely that the actual structure that we

20     have was erected later.  It's been repaired a number of times over

21     history.  The most vulnerable elements of mosques are the minarets, which

22     can be hit by lightning or damaged otherwise, and so they're the ones

23     that are most often replaced.  I've seen a picture of the mosque from the

24     19th century where it had a rather short wooden minaret and then it got a

25     stone one again.

Page 22592

 1             So all of these buildings which are in continuous use are living

 2     structures, and the most you can say for many of them is that there is a

 3     known date of foundation, but only a percentage of the building is

 4     actually that old.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  I'm asking that because in paragraph 27, a mistake

 6     slipped that in the early 1400s --

 7        A.   Where?

 8        Q.   Paragraph 27.  [In English] Close to half, 46 per cent of the 281

 9     mosques surveyed for this report from the Ottoman era early 14 --

10     1400s --

11        A.   Okay.  What that designates is the era of Ottoman rule in Bosnia,

12     not the era of the earliest mosque.  The Ottomans entered Bosnia in the

13     first decades of the 1400s.

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Do you remember the year?

15        A.   Well at different times and at different years, the 1420s and

16     1430s they got involved in a local civil war among Bosnian nobles.  Then

17     they occupied part of the Drina valley.  The last part of Bosnia to fall

18     to Ottoman rule was in the north-western corner around Bihac, and that

19     wasn't until almost a century after the first Turkish entrance.

20        Q.   Thank you.  So the time of the incursions is different from the

21     time when Bosnia was actually mastered; right?

22        A.   Well, there were already established Turkish administrations in

23     Bosnia by the late 15th century.  They didn't wait until Bihac fell to

24     establish Ottoman rule in Bosnia.  All I'm saying is that Bosnia did not

25     fall at once.  It fell in pieces.

Page 22593

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know -- or, rather, were you informed as to

 2     what the attitude of the authorities were -- was towards the destruction

 3     of buildings, any buildings, these included, that were in areas outside

 4     combat areas?  Did you know about orders regarding protection, also the

 5     prosecution of perpetrators?

 6        A.   I'm aware of an order that was reprinted in a book called,

 7     "Moja Odbrana," "My Defence," which was published while you were still a

 8     fugitive.  It dates from May of 1993, and it was produced by

 9     Mr. Milosevic during his trial.  So I am aware of that one.

10             I am not aware of prosecutions of persons responsible for

11     destroying mosques and Catholic churches.  However, I wait to be

12     enlightened.

13        Q.   Thank you.  D106, can we take a brief look at that.

14             Let me ask you in the meantime.  In what I have here, you said

15     that the Serb authorities built a church in Divic.  Do you agree that

16     it's not the authorities that build churches, it is the believers that

17     build churches?

18        A.   The believers build churches if they have permits from the

19     authorities.  They don't build them at any spot that they don't own.  And

20     furthermore, at least in this case, I believe the authorities were

21     brought to court by the Islamic Community and it was decided that the

22     authorities were indeed at fault.  This is a decision of the human rights

23     chamber.  However, it took years to enforce it.

24        Q.   Is this the document that you meant when I ordered that patrols

25     be reinforced and that places of worship be secured?  That was in 1993;

Page 22594

 1     right?

 2        A.   I believe so, yes.  The 12 May 1993 document.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  D1736.  Can we now have a look at that, please?

 4     Please take a look at this.  The local authorities in Kljuc condemned

 5     over the radio what had happened, and they're talking about

 6     investigations and perpetrators, and this has to do with the destruction

 7     of the mosque, and you see when that happened at 3.00 at night, 3.05, as

 8     a matter of fact?

 9        A.   Is there a date on this?

10        Q.   I think that this is 1992.  I cannot see the date.  The 1st of

11     July, 1992.

12        A.   With reference to the 12th May document, I think it's worth

13     pointing out that at the time that document was issued in the aftermath

14     of the destruction of the major mosque in the centre of Banja Luka, the

15     Arnaudija and the Ferhadija, which were blown up on the -- around the 8th

16     of May.  What I recall, again from the Milosevic trial, is the fact that

17     with respect to Banja Luka your order may have been issued, but there

18     were other mosques in Banja Luka still standing at the time, and in the

19     subsequent months they were destroyed one by one until in December there

20     were none left standing, and so I was wondering about the effectiveness

21     of such an order.

22        Q.   Well, I've been wondering that myself, but do you remember that I

23     called that an act of terrorism, and I asked for it to be treated as

24     terrorism?

25        A.   Well, I think the order speaks for itself without me having

Page 22595

 1     having to comment on it.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Can we have a look at 65 ter 17851.  Please take a

 3     look at this.  This is the 23rd of June, General Talic, the commander of

 4     the 1st Krajina Corps is writing this.  It's a military secret, official,

 5     keep permanently.  He is issuing an order to make sure that no places of

 6     worship are desecrated.  Also, fire may be opened on religious buildings

 7     only if the forces are being engaged from such building.  Also, he is

 8     prohibiting the mistreatment of religious officials.  Do you agree that

 9     this is an appropriate measure, an appropriate order issued by the corps

10     commander?

11        A.   It looks like the kind of order that would be issued by a

12     responsible commander, yes.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

15             JUDGE KWON:  Were you minded to tender the Djeneral Jankovic's

16     order which you showed --

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that has already been

18     admitted, D106.

19             JUDGE KWON:  No.  It was yours, though.  I was referring to

20     1D1606, related to Kula Grad.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I thought that that had been

22     admitted.

23             JUDGE KWON:  I have to turn to the registrar.

24                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is D1606.

Page 22596

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Yes.  We'll admit this 1st Krajina Corps

 2     document.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D1979, Your Honours.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we now have a look

 5     at 65 ter 17848.  Sorry, can we just have the next page?  Actually, this

 6     one too.  Can we see who all the addressees are?  Oh, all right.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Please look at this.  On the 3rd of August yet again there is

 9     this order banning the destruction of religious buildings.

10              "We warn all unit commanders to prevent such irresponsible acts.

11     Failure to abide by my order represents a criminal act and shall be dealt

12     with accordingly. "

13             That is the 3rd of August.  Can we have the next page now to see

14     who this was sent to.  It was sent, basically, to each and every unit.

15             The first page it says "Military secret.  Strictly confidential.

16     Keep permanently."  So it's not propaganda.  It's not an act of

17     propaganda.  It is strictly confidential, it is a secret, and it is

18     rather strict.

19             So his first order dated the 23rd of June, obviously had not

20     yielded fruit everywhere.  Or rather, Mr. Riedlmayer, do you agree that a

21     building can be destroyed by someone who is not in the military and that

22     General Talic is not in charge of persons who are not under his command?

23        A.   Okay.  Again, it's a two-part question.  Certainly a building can

24     be destroyed by persons not in the military.  And as to what the limit is

25     of Talic's command responsibility, that I would leave up to the Court.

Page 22597

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Exhibit D1980.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Well, now I have to deal with the question of your partiality.  I

 6     do not do that happily, but I have to do it nevertheless.  Is it correct

 7     that on various occasions you expressed your regret, for instance,

 8     because Serbia had not been found guilty of genocide in Bosnia?

 9        A.   I was a witness for the Bosnian side in the International Court

10     of Justice, and in fact as I recall the ruling of the Court was that

11     Serbia was in breach of the Genocide Convention for failing to prevent or

12     punish genocide in Bosnia.

13             As to your question of whether I had expressed regret, whether --

14     that the judgement didn't go further, I don't recall the specific

15     instances, but I would agree that yes, I wished that the judgement had

16     gone further.

17        Q.   Thank you.  1D4903.  Can we have a look at that?  It seems that

18     it was at a very early stage that you took a very critical view of the

19     United Nations and Western statesmen as well because of their

20     understanding of the Bosnian crisis; right?

21        A.   Yes.  I don't see the date, but --

22             JUDGE KWON:  We can zoom in.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   1994.  December 1994?

25        A.   Oh, yes.  And this is the time when the Secretary-General was

Page 22598

 1     given an award at Harvard, and I made some critical statements where I'm

 2     quoted as saying:

 3             "The UN protection force cannot even act to protect itself, let

 4     alone ensure the protection of safe areas, the delivery of aid, or the

 5     position -- policing of weapons exclusion zones.

 6             "I think it's a very bad precedent to honour somebody for failing

 7     so conspicuously."

 8             I would stand by that quote, and I believe later on the

 9     Secretary-General himself had admitted that the United Nations had,

10     indeed, failed in its mission in Bosnia.  I don't think there's anything

11     controversial about this at all.

12        Q.   And do you remember that this very same Secretary-General said

13     that those protected areas had become armed strongholds of the Muslim

14     army and that they had been abused?

15        A.   I'm not aware that he said that, but he might very well have.

16        Q.   Thank you.  1D4905.  Can we have a look at that.

17        A.   Yes, I remember this.  There was a petition circulated calling

18     for the arrest of fugitives.  I did not write the petition, but I am

19     among the signatories.  So are, I believe, thousands of other people.

20     And if you look at the English or the Bosnian, you will see it says:

21             "We, the undersigned, feel that it is the moral duty of our

22     governments to order their troops in Bosnia to immediately arrest

23     Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic who have been charged by the

24     International War Crimes Tribunal at The Hague with genocide and crimes

25     against humanity."

Page 22599

 1             Again, I think that is simply a statement of fact.  The Tribunal

 2     did charge you and General Mladic, and it was the duty of Member States

 3     of the United Nations to execute the warrants of the Tribunal.  I don't

 4     see anything prejudicial about that.

 5        Q.   And how many such petitions have you signed altogether for other

 6     accused persons?

 7        A.   I don't remember.  I -- I know I may have signed more than one.

 8        Q.   Whose arrest?  Do you know how many people were indicted here?

 9     Do you know how many people were fugitives?  Whose arrest did you ask

10     for?

11        A.   Well, obviously yours, sir, and Mr. Mladic.  You were the two

12     most prominent fugitives from the Tribunal for the longest of times.

13     Most of the others were not on the run as long and were not a public

14     issue in the same way that you were.

15        Q.   Thank you.  On page 9 of this document we can see your signature,

16     so could we have a look, please.  Isn't that right?

17        A.   Well, let me find it.

18        Q.   The last one before the fine print.

19        A.   Oh, yes, I see it.  It's there.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted?

22             JUDGE KWON:  Are you tendering the previous document as well

23     about picketing?

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, that would be fine.

25             JUDGE KWON:  No, it's up to you.

Page 22600

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Fine.  Fine.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll admit both the documents.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, document 1D4903 shall be given

 4     Exhibit D1981, and document 1D4905 shall be given Exhibit D1982.  Thank

 5     you.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D4907.  Can we have a look at

 7     that, please?

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   You have a co-operation with the Kosovo government, don't you,

10     working on their independence, and you're working on cultural heritage in

11     that context; right?

12        A.   I'm engaged in something called the Kosovo Cultural Heritage

13     Project which reconstructed some damaged cultural monuments in Kosovo.  I

14     was also engaged in aid to the Kosovo national library.  It's all part of

15     the public record.  I had nothing to do with Kosovo's declaration of

16     independence.  And this interview with Dr. Shukriu was her thanking me

17     for the engagement with reconstruction in Kosovo and with documenting the

18     destruction in Kosovo.

19             I would remind you that I also documented the destruction of Serb

20     cultural heritage in Kosovo and was at various points in contact with the

21     Serbian Orthodox church trying to work on Serb heritage in Kosovo.

22        Q.   Thank you.  This conversation took place within her preparations

23     for the fourth round of technical talks with Serbia, right, as is stated

24     here?

25        A.   Well, what is stated is that, yeah, the first paragraph, that she

Page 22601

 1     was preparing for the fourth round.  I did not participate in the

 2     negotiations at all.  I happened to be in Kosovo on a very short visit of

 3     48 hours, and I had an interview that lasted maybe 15 minutes which

 4     included snapping of pictures and the giving of thanks.  It's -- if -- if

 5     I had been part of the negotiations, it would be a different deal.  Most

 6     of my meetings in Kosovo had to do with the cultural heritage authorities

 7     who are using the database that I also submitted in the Milosevic case as

 8     one of the bases for their inventory of cultural heritage monuments in

 9     Kosovo.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Exhibit D1983.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Before the break, can we briefly look at 1D4909.  It's a short

15     document.

16             This is translation from English, so the original should be

17     somewhere.  I'm going read it to you then.  It says here:

18             "Contact Washington.  Let your voice be heard as well."

19             And there's a reference here to -- actually, I'm going to read it

20     out:

21             "If we do not raise our voice in protest, that will mean that we

22     are helping Western leaders get away with their new 'policy' towards

23     Bosnia and ignore all --"

24             JUDGE KWON:  If you do not have the English translation, please

25     let us know what this document is about first.

Page 22602

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is an action over the internet

 2     aimed at supporting the Muslim side in Bosnia.  It also contains

 3     Mr. Riedlmayer's letter to President Clinton, and that is what is

 4     important for me.  That's on page 3.  Can we move on to page 3 and that

 5     the gentleman, the witness, is going to recall that he did write this

 6     letter.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Riedlmayer -- I'm sorry.  Ms. Sutherland.

 8     My apologies.

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I was about to say that there is

10     this document in English, so if Your Honours were minded to rise early,

11     then the Defence could get the English of this document.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  I think it's time to a break now.  We'll

13     break for half an hour and resume at 1.00.

14                           --- Recess taken at 12.28 p.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.

16             JUDGE KWON:  For this session, the Chamber is sitting pursuant to

17     Rule 15 bis in the absence of Judge Morrison and Judge Lattanzi, who are

18     away due to urgent personal reasons.

19             Before -- no.  Let's continue.  Mr. Karadzic.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Although I'd like Judge Lattanzi to

21     be here so that I could wish her a pleasant upcoming holiday, still I can

22     say that I will finish within a half hour.

23             Can we look at 1D4909.  Do we have the translation?

24             JUDGE KWON:  Has it been uploaded?

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I wasn't able to locate it, but

Page 22603

 1     clearly Mr. Riedlmayer wrote it in English.  So it must have been the

 2     document from which the translation was done, but it's --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  The Defence can't locate it.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Do you recognise it, Mr. Riedlmayer?

 6             THE WITNESS:  I recognise it.  I also recognise that there are

 7     some issues with the translation.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Can we have page 2 and then 3.  Do you recall that this is a

11     letter of yours addressed to President Clinton?

12        A.   Yes, I do recall it.

13        Q.   Can we have page 3, and I'll read the relevant paragraph.  I

14     quote:

15             "Lifting sanctions -- lifting the arms sanction would help

16     persuade the aggressor that time is no longer on their side.  The

17     government of Bosnia, who has been internationally recognised, has agreed

18     to every peace plan presented to them regardless of how painful or unfair

19     it may have been.  The extremists from Pale rejected every plan offered

20     by the international community."

21             Who was it that provided this sort of information to you,

22     Mr. Riedlmayer?  If I were to tell you that I agreed to four out of the

23     five offered plans; whereas, the Muslims rejected the Cutileiro Plan

24     which could have helped prevent the war, do you -- would you agree in

25     that case that somebody must have grossly misinformed you?

Page 22604

 1             JUDGE KWON:  One question at a time.  Let us stop here and then

 2     let us ask Mr. Riedlmayer to answer the question.

 3             THE WITNESS:  Okay.  This was a very long time ago, Your Honour,

 4     and I'm working from memory, but at the time I was reading the news, and

 5     I was referring to plans like the Vance-Owen Plan, which was rejected.

 6             I would also, Your Honour, point out that over time all of us

 7     have opinions, engage in discourse of various sorts, including political

 8     discourse.  I was writing this as a citizen of the United States to my

 9     elected representatives.  That does not in itself render me incapable of

10     writing a factual and objective and professional report.

11             The views I held at that time - I think in those circumstances

12     we're talking about the summer of 1995 - I think were appropriate to the

13     times.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know that the Muslim side had rejected the

16     already accepted Lisbon agreement, as well as the nearly accepted

17     Owen-Stoltenberg Plan?

18        A.   Well, my understanding, as far as my memory serves me, is that

19     the Bosnian government at first hesitated then finally was pressured to

20     accept the Owen-Stoltenberg Plan, whereupon the Republika Srpska

21     parliament turned it down.

22             JUDGE KWON:  How about the Lisbon agreement?

23             THE WITNESS:  The Lisbon agreement came very early in these

24     developments, and there are all kinds of controversies about why the

25     Bosnian government refused to sign it.  I no longer remember the exact

Page 22605

 1     details, but it was more than two years before this letter.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Let me correct you, the Serbian parliament accepted

 4     the Owen-Stoltenberg Plan, whereas the Bosnian or Muslim parliament

 5     rejected it.  But let us look at this paragraph.  So far UNPROFOR and the

 6     Contact Group have indeed become insignificant in the effort of arriving

 7     at the resolution of the conflict in Bosnia.  The only thing that

 8     Karadzic and his highwaymen are still afraid of is that their victims may

 9     somehow find a way to get hold of defence assets or funds.

10             First of all, do you know that my government at the time was

11     among the highest educated governments in Europe at the time?  Among them

12     were various professors and highly qualified professionals from different

13     walks of life.

14        A.   This is the -- exactly the problem with the translation that I

15     was referring to.  My original text said -- referred to outlaws.  Okay.

16     "Outlaw" is a very specific term in English.  It can be used in the broad

17     sense to mean everything from highwaymen to bandits, but it also has the

18     connotation of anyone who acts outside of the law.  So you have things

19     like outlaw governments and outlaw organisations.

20             I would remind you, sir, that the Bosnian government was a member

21     state of the United Nations.  It enjoyed international recognition,

22     whereas your government was -- had a Foreign Minister, but as far as I

23     know was not recognised formally even by Serbia.  And secondly, that it

24     was in defiance of a long list of United Nations Resolutions.  I would

25     posit that it was acting outside of the law.

Page 22606

 1             All that being said, this was something specific to the period

 2     and long before I was ever asked to act as an expert witness for this

 3     Tribunal.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that the Bosnian government can exist and

 5     be as such only if it is composed of the legitimate representatives of

 6     three peoples and not two and that we were that third part of the

 7     government?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, we are not coming to that.  Please

 9     continue.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   One more question.  Do you know that throughout the war the

13     Muslim side in Bosnia did receive arms?

14        A.   I wouldn't be surprised, but it's -- it's not something that is

15     within my expertise.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Since I've read the portions, shall we leave it at

17     that, or should I tender the document, Your Honours?

18             JUDGE KWON:  We can admit it with the understanding that the

19     English translation will be uploaded in due course.

20                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

21             JUDGE KWON:  For safety, we'll mark it for identification.

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And the English original, Your Honour, not the

23     English translation.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, it's not the English translation.  It's the

25     original.

Page 22607

 1             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, you may recall since you sat on the

 2     Karadzic says that this same document was produced in the Karadzic

 3     case so the English one --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  You must be referring to Mr. Milosevic case.

 5             THE WITNESS:  I meant in the Milosevic case, sorry.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  No doubt the Prosecution will be able to

 7     locate it.

 8             THE WITNESS:  Yeah.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the exhibit number would be D1984,

11     marked for identification.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 1D4910.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   You established, didn't you -- well, this is the same situation

16     as with the previous document.  This is a Serbian translation, and there

17     is the Serbian original.

18             You established an organisation called Bosnia Action Coalition,

19     did you not?  Or you were perhaps its member.

20        A.   I was a member.

21        Q.   If we don't have the translation -- do you recall that you gave

22     an interview to this organisation then and that this is the interview we

23     are looking at right now?

24        A.   I recall -- do you have the date on this?

25        Q.   We'll look for it.  There isn't one on the translation itself.

Page 22608

 1        A.   I have a vague recall of this because it was such a long time

 2     ago.  I was interviewed about Dayton and its consequences, I believe.  Is

 3     that the document?

 4        Q.   Yes.  Can we have page 2.  You spoke quite disparagingly of all

 5     the US politicians and Western European politicians.  Power played a key

 6     role in discouraging the Clinton Administration from taking an active

 7     role.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters note:  We don't have a

 9     reference.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Do you recall that?  You referred to the Powell doctrine?

12             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Why don't we zoom it a bit further.

13     Probably bottom half.  For the benefit of the interpreters.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  The part where it starts "In

15     the course of the conflict..."  Could we have the bottom two thirds

16     enlarged.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   It reads here:

20             "In the US, General Colin Powell, as the Chief of Joint Staff,

21     played a key role in the Clinton Administration.  'To play a key role, we

22     are dealing with deserts and not mountains,' General Powell insisted."

23             You refer to this as the Powell doctrine.  And further down you

24     say:

25             "President Clinton, already affected by General Powell's

Page 22609

 1     successful counter-attack in trying to allow the homosexuals to be in the

 2     army and unsure of his moral authority when it comes to the army, refused

 3     to --"

 4             In this particular paragraph, you are very critical of

 5     President Clinton, are you not?

 6        A.   I am.

 7        Q.   Can we have page 8.  Do you know, Mr. Riedlmayer, that the Serbs

 8     consider the Muslims to be the Serbs and that we are proud of the fact

 9     the greatest Muslim figures such as Mesa Selimovic and before him Hasan

10     Rebac, Osman Djikic, et cetera, were Serbs?  Do you know that we consider

11     them to be Serb?

12        A.   I know that there are some Muslims who identify as Serbs.  I also

13     know that Serb nationalists insist that Muslims are as -- Serbs who have

14     converted to Islam.  Similarly, Croat nationalists insist that all

15     Muslims are really Croats.  I think what matters for people is what they

16     think of themselves as being rather than what someone else chooses to

17     insist that they are.

18        Q.   I agree, but we are proud of the fact that some of the most

19     creative individuals of the Muslim faith preserved their Serb roots, but

20     look at what you say here.  How do you respond to the accusations that

21     you're trying to simplify this conflict and present it as a conflict

22     between the Serb bad guys and their helpless victims, and this is your

23     answer:

24             "This is a demeaning way of formulating the situation.  First of

25     all, this is not a conflict between a nation -- a victim and a aggressor

Page 22610

 1     nation.  It is a conflict of ideologies.  Serb nationalists, led by

 2     Karadzic, believe in a racial and ethnically pure state.  To achieve this

 3     they expelled and killed all those who were deemed not to have been of

 4     thoroughbreds, of pure Serb blood.  They considered it a crime for

 5     non-Serb individuals to marry with Serbs or have sexual relations with

 6     them, and such progeny of mixed marriages - 20 to 30 per cent of the

 7     people in Bosnia - were branded as half-castes who needed to be

 8     eliminated," et cetera.

 9             What prompted you to present such a position in this interview?

10        A.   Okay.  I would have to see the English to see whether it was

11     exactly in these words.  I would say that it is not a stand I would take

12     today.  It's simply the information I had then and the information I have

13     now are not the same.

14             Obviously this was an act of advocacy, and I own up to it at the

15     time that's how I felt, but I would repeat once again that, you know,

16     this has been a process of over two decades now, and in the process we

17     all learn something.

18        Q.   Thank you.  So would you agree that you did not see for yourself

19     that there existed a single piece of legislation which was

20     discriminatory, either in political or in racial terms, if I can put it

21     that way, although we and the Muslims are of the same race, and in our

22     view we are of the same ethnicity as well.

23        A.   Well, I am not familiar with the entire legislative corpus of

24     your government.  I know that the accusation made in this that mixed

25     marriages were prohibited was wrong.  It was based on misreporting.

Page 22611

 1     Since then I've learned that in fact, like all misreporting, this had

 2     some facts behind it, namely that people in mixed marriages were

 3     encouraged to emigrate, which is not the same, I admit, but this was the

 4     state of my knowledge at the time.  As I recall, this was still before

 5     the end of the war, around October, while the negotiations were going on

 6     in Dayton.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  If I were to tell you that in my office there were

 8     Muslims and individuals from Muslim families who enjoyed the highest of

 9     my trust, and if I told you that one of my closest associates came from a

10     mixed marriage, would that shed any light or dissuade you from this

11     misconception?

12        A.   Well, I already told you that I -- I have retreated from this,

13     disavowed that misconception of many years ago.

14        Q.   Thank you.  If what I've read out is not sufficient for Their

15     Honours, it may be admitted or I leave it in the hands of the Chamber,

16     though I believe what the witness said is sufficient.

17             JUDGE KWON:  We'll mark it for identification pending English

18     translation likewise.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D1985, marked for identification, Your

20     Honours.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 1D4923.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   This is titled "Spiritual Genocide."  It is taken off the web

24     site of the Serbian Orthodox Church.

25             Can we have 8, 7, 5 -- page 7.  I've called this up not because

Page 22612

 1     of the text but because of the images.  Can we have the images enlarged,

 2     please.

 3             Does this look any better than what you've shown us, or does it

 4     look the same?

 5        A.   It looks like a church that has been blown up.  I'm aware of the

 6     book, and I'm aware of the pictures in the book.

 7        Q.   This is a basilica, as you can see.  It was built in 1853.

 8             Can we have the bottom image now.

 9        A.   Okay.

10        Q.   Let me read this out for you:

11             "The church of the holy martyr of George, known as

12     Donja Sopotnica, among the people, was built by Stejpan Herceg in 1446.

13     Between 1529 and 1531, this --"

14             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, what it's relevance of these questions

15     and this material?  Move on to your next topic.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, I wanted to show

17     what the situation was like on the other side.  This is a very old

18     church, Stjepan Herceg --

19             JUDGE KWON:  No.  It is not one of his topics.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we have the next

21     page just for a moment.  I will not be reading out any of the text, but

22     just let us look at what this was like.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Move on to your next topic.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we can 1D4924, and I'll tender

25     this.

Page 22613

 1             JUDGE KWON:  No.  I will not allow that.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not this document, but another

 3     document, 1D4924.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  According to your list, it says "Places of Orthodox

 5     Worship Damaged in Former Yugoslavia," which has nothing to do with this

 6     witness's evidence, Mr. Karadzic.  Let's come to your last questions,

 7     Mr. Karadzic.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Excellency, it is my case

 9     that out -- that people fled these locations and that the chaos of the

10     civil war encourages these developments in and of itself.  So I am

11     offering this not as tu quoque but as a way of giving you a better

12     understanding of the motives behind certain events in a civil war and

13     that certain events are not the result of the actions of authorities but

14     happen in and of themselves.  If you, however, do not wish to admit the

15     document, I will withdraw it.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  The Chamber is unanimous in that view.  Please

18     move on to your last topic, Mr. Karadzic.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Actually, Excellencies, I could

20     actually finish now.  I would like to thank Mr. Riedlmayer.  I would like

21     to wish him a safe trip, and would I like to wish him happy holidays as

22     well as happy holidays to the whole Chamber as well as to all the

23     parties.  I would like to wish everybody the best and my wishes for happy

24     holidays.

25             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

Page 22614

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I have a few matters, Your Honour.

 3                           Re-examination by Ms. Sutherland:

 4        Q.   Mr. Riedlmayer, this morning Mr. Karadzic said at transcript page

 5     35:

 6             "Do you see that there is a link between the destruction of one

 7     set of buildings with that of the other set of buildings?  Don't you see

 8     here that there is a retaliatory nature?"

 9             And then you provided an answer which included the fact that you

10     said:

11             "I would underline that in most places in Bosnia the destruction

12     was very one-sided, and I would keep this time sequence in mind."

13             Now, you recall the first slide that was shown this morning was

14     of the Mutnik mosque in Kozarac and that's slide 11, P04071.  While

15     that's coming up, do you know what happened to the Serb Orthodox church

16     in Kozarac?

17        A.   As far as I know, it survived the war entirely intact.

18        Q.   So if we can just go to slide 11 to familiarise ourselves with

19     what we saw this morning.  And then if I could have Exhibit P00550.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If this is permitted, then I should

21     be allowed to tender a document about the Serbian heritage.

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:

23        Q.   Mr. Riedlmayer, is that the --

24        A.   That is the old church in Kozarac, yes, the old Serbian church in

25     Kozarac.

Page 22615

 1        Q.   And do you know how far the distance between the Mutnik

 2     mosque and this mosque -- this church?

 3        A.   Not very far.

 4        Q.   The second matter I wish to deal with is at transcript page 42

 5     today, Mr. Karadzic asked you whether you knew of any heroes that would

 6     have boasted of having blown up structures.  I want to play you a short

 7     video-clip of a speech given by the Drina Corps commander,

 8     General Milenko Zivanovic on the 12th of July, 1995.

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And, Your Honour, this video is 65 ter number

10     40583, and the transcript of the excerpt that's going to be shown is from

11     65 ter number 03099 and it starts on page -- the bottom of page 16 and

12     goes on to page 17.  And the video is subtitled, Your Honour.  And the

13     time-code for the video is 00:38:34.1.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And we stopped at -- the time code is

16     00:39:32.5.

17        Q.   Mr. Riedlmayer, are you aware of whether any mosques were

18     destroyed in Srebrenica after the town was taken by Bosnian Serb forces

19     in July 1995?

20        A.   Yes, I covered Srebrenica for a previous trial, and I went to

21     Srebrenica to do a survey.  Srebrenica had a total of five mosques, all

22     of which were destroyed after the town.  You can see the intact minaret

23     in the Petrovic video as the Serb troops come into the town, and then in

24     the subsequent days you see pictures of several of them damaged or blown

25     up, and by the time I got there all of them had been reduced to ruins.

Page 22616

 1     The one in the market square across from the Serbian church had been

 2     completely levelled and it had junked cars on top.  The oldest mosque,

 3     the Bijela Dzamija, only had fragments of walls remaining.  The same was

 4     true of the mosque at the northern entrance of Srebrenica and the

 5     headquarters of the Srebrenica Islamic Community at the Petric Mahala

 6     mosque, that mosque was completely destroyed.  Only rubble remained.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, Mr. Riedlmayer.  All the destruction

 8     of cultural monument referred to in the indictment are limited to 1992;

 9     correct?  In Schedule D.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I think there may be some dates in

11     1993 also.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have an objection to this.  I

13     asked --

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, it is 1992, but it was in reference

15     to a question that Mr. Karadzic put.

16             JUDGE KWON:  So this video relates to 1995.

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour, correct.

18             JUDGE KWON:  I would like you to move on to another topic.

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes.  I don't seek to admit the document -- the

20     video.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:

23        Q.   Mr. Riedlmayer, the third issue I want to take you to is --

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Sorry, if I can just correct the transcript.  At

25     page 76, line 15, the 65 ter number which I said was 40582 for the video.

Page 22617

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just state for the transcript

 2     that this was not prompted by my question.  I asked about terrorists and

 3     General Zivanovic is talking about combat, about assault, and I was

 4     asking whether they were clandestinely or openly demolishing --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  No, it's not helpful.  We'll move on.

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 7        Q.   Mr. Riedlmayer at transcript page 55 today, Mr. Karadzic asked

 8     you if you were informed as to what the attitude of these authorities

 9     were towards the destruction of buildings, any buildings that were in

10     areas outside combat areas.  Do you recall anything said by Serb

11     authorities in Prijedor about the destruction of buildings, religious

12     buildings in particular?

13        A.   Yes.  I recall an interview by Simo Drljaca, who was the police

14     chief of Prijedor and, I believe, had some authority over other parts of

15     the Bosanska Krajina region, and he said with their mosques it's not

16     enough to break the minarets.  You've got to shake the foundation.  That

17     way they, meaning the Muslims, will leave and never come back.  They

18     cannot rebuild.

19        Q.   And finally, at transcript page 47, Mr. Karadzic put to you that

20     the mosque in Pale was not destroyed either, and you just said that you

21     didn't have access to your survey database.  If Mr. Usher could -- or

22     Ms. Usher, sorry, could assist.  This is a hard copy printout of your

23     survey database, and I've marked with a yellow Post-it Note the Pale

24     municipality where it begins.  If you could very quickly --

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Once again I must --

Page 22618

 1     [overlapping speakers].

 2        Q.   -- review your survey database records for Pale and inform --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 4             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.  What is your objection?

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I was not talking about the

 6     villages in the municipality of Pale.  I was talking about the actual

 7     town of Pale.  I know that all sorts of things happened in the villages,

 8     but I was talking about Pale the town itself where the Catholic church

 9     and the mosque remained intact.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:

11        Q.   Mr. Riedlmayer, can you just confirm --

12             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:

14        Q.   -- after reviewing your records, please.

15             THE WITNESS:  There's an entry --

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             THE WITNESS:  -- for the Catholic church.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Could you hold on.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE KWON:  Since you didn't limit your question to the town

21     specifically, we'll allow Ms. Sutherland to pursue that line of question.

22             Please continue, Ms. Sutherland.

23             THE WITNESS:  Okay.  The entries for Pale are all for villages

24     except for the Catholic church which is in the town.  I didn't have

25     specific information on the mosque in Pale.  As you may recall from my

Page 22619

 1     database and from my report, I was careful to include only sites for

 2     which I had photographs and/or multiple corroborating information, but I

 3     have heard that the mosque in Pale was vandalised but not destroyed.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 5        Q.   And the records in your survey database in relation to Pale?

 6        A.   So I have several villages, Praca where the mosque was completely

 7     destroyed at site level.  It was an old mosque dating from the 16th

 8     century.  And mosques in villages such as Podvitez and Bogovici.  And in

 9     the town of Pale, of course, the Catholic church, where the votive

10     statues of saints on the main and side alters were smashed, but there was

11     no structural damage to the church.

12             So that's the limit of Pale municipality -- oh, no, here's also

13     in Praca, next to the mosque that was destroyed, there was a mausoleum

14     that was only lightly damaged.  So that's the limit of the coverage for

15     Pale of my survey.  I must say that this request to cover Pale came in

16     April of 2009 and I was not able to make site visits to these places, so

17     all of this is based on photographic documentation.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Mr. Riedlmayer.  I have no further

19     questions.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Well, thank you.  That concludes your evidence,

21     Mr. Riedlmayer.  On behalf the Chamber and the Tribunal as a whole, I'd

22     like to thank you for your coming again to the Tribunal to give it.

23             THE WITNESS:  Thank you very much, Your Honour, and thank you for

24     making sure that I left in time.

25             JUDGE KWON:  And I would like to thank you in particular for your

Page 22620

 1     indulgence.  Please have a safe journey back home, and you may be excused

 2     now.

 3             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

 4                           [The witness withdrew]

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, just one matter.  The document

 6     D01736, the Kljuc radio document that Mr. Karadzic showed and you asked

 7     is there a date on the document -- Mr. Riedlmayer asked if there was a

 8     date on the document, and Mr. Karadzic said the 1st of July, 1992.  In

 9     fact, the document is undated.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, thank you.

11             Mr. -- yes.

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I'm sorry, I should have mentioned yesterday

13     afternoon that the redacted report and redacted formatted records were

14     uploaded and in e-court available.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I have noted it.  Thank you.

16             Before we adjourn, Mr. Tieger, I was informed that the Chamber

17     has received a courtesy copy about the motion for an extension of time

18     for disclosure.  Probably it will be of benefit to have the response

19     from -- from the Defence.  If you could orally explain it -- raise it now

20     so that Mr. Karadzic could understand.

21             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Mr. President.  As the motion indicates, the

22     Prosecution completed the searches and is prepared to -- as disclosed is

23     prepared to disclose the relevant materials that resulted from the

24     searches of the accessible databases and archives.  During the course of

25     that effort -- so in that sense as indicated in the motion we responded

Page 22621

 1     to and complied with the Trial Chamber's directive.

 2             During the course of doing so, however, we observed that there

 3     were references to certain documents that had not turned up in the search

 4     and considered the possibility that such documents may exist in locations

 5     that were not known to or accessible to the Prosecution, and therefore

 6     have proposed an additional search which would ensure the fullest

 7     possible compliance with the Trial Chamber's order and minimise the risk

 8     of any inadvertent oversight of materials that may exist.  To do so,

 9     however, requires a labour intensive and time-consuming manual search,

10     and then the scanning of documents for electronic searching.  In light of

11     those factors, we estimate that that additional process would not be

12     completed until January 31st of next year and therefore seek an extension

13     to complete that aspect of the proposed process.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, do you follow?

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I do, and I would prefer that

16     Mr. Robinson deal with that, but we accepted that because there is no

17     other way.  There's no other solution.  And then after that, hopefully we

18     will get adequate time in order to be able to review that material.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  The finding that this is -- request is

20     reasonable, it is so granted, Mr. Tieger.

21             Unless there are any other matters to be raised, the hearing is

22     now adjourned, and we will resume -- one more.  We will resume on the

23     10th January, Mr. Tieger, and on which date we will start with the

24     videolink at 8.00?

25             MR. TIEGER:  We have been working toward that particular date,

Page 22622

 1     Mr. President, and of course we'll advise the Chamber if there are any

 2     complications arising.  We hope not and anticipate it would be on the

 3     10th.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I'm glad to hear that,

 6     because the 9th of January is Republika Srpska Republic Day, so I'm glad

 7     that we will not be in session on that day.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  I wish everybody a very Happy New Year.  We will see

 9     you next year.

10                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.50 p.m.,

11                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 10th day

12                           of January, 2012, at 8.00 a.m.