1 Friday, 9 December 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The witness takes the stand]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everyone. Good morning,
7 Mr. Riedlmayer.
8 THE WITNESS: Good morning, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes, sir.
10 THE WITNESS: If the Court permits, I would like to raise a small
11 matter before we again.
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes, by all means.
13 THE WITNESS: When I arrived here, I had expected to testify
14 earlier in the week and I had agreed to give a lecture in Amsterdam on
15 Friday afternoon at 3.00. This is now Friday, and if there is any chance
16 we can finish earlier than that, I could still make it to Amsterdam.
17 Otherwise, I need to notify the organisers. I understand that my first
18 obligation is to the court and to the interests of justice, but I'd like
19 to know whether to notify them to cancel.
20 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Having heard that, we'll reduce the time
21 for lunch break to half an hour from an hour, and we can -- we can
22 conclude at least by 2.30, and I don't think Mr. Karadzic would need all
23 those time. He is going to spend about three hours for your cross, so
24 I'm confident we can conclude around by 2.00.
25 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
1 JUDGE KWON: We'll see.
2 Before we begin and without having to going -- go into private
3 session, I will just term it in general terms, but I wonder, Mr. Tieger,
4 then whether Prosecution is prepared to respond to the motion by the
5 accused which relates to certain Rule 70 conditions. Do you follow?
6 MR. TIEGER: I'm not sure, Mr. President, but in any event, let
7 me -- I -- do you have a time-frame, a particular time-frame in mind and
8 I can get back to the Court shortly on the status and progress of the
9 Prosecution's position on that? But it would be helpful if I knew that
10 you had a particular time-frame in mind rather than --
11 JUDGE KWON: If we would like to deal with it -- we have to deal
12 with it in the absence of the witness. The motion I referred to was
13 filed on 8th of December.
14 MR. TIEGER: Thank you.
15 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
16 Yes, Ms. Sutherland.
17 MS. SUTHERLAND: And, Your Honour, good morning. And I'm
18 certainly not going to take half an hour with the next slide which is
19 what I intimated to you at the end of the session yesterday. I
20 apologise. I was jumping ahead and I thought you meant how long I was
21 going to take to complete Mr. Riedlmayer's testimony -- evidence in
22 chief, that is. And we're also assisted today by Ms. Janet Stewart in
23 Mr. Reid's absence.
24 WITNESS: ANDRAS JANOS RIEDLMAYER [Resumed]
25 Examination by Ms. Sutherland: [Continued]
1 Q. So we will finish where we were -- left off on the last slide of
2 the -- when we were dealing, Mr. Riedlmayer, with some of the
3 characteristics of the destruction.
4 MS. SUTHERLAND: And I if could have 65 ter number --
5 JUDGE KWON: Before that, briefly, I wonder whether Ms. Pelic has
6 been officially introduced?
7 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, she has, Your Honour, but not in open
8 session. So we are assisted also today by Ms. Lena Pelic.
9 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: 65 ter number 23553, please. If we could go to
11 slide number 11, which is page number 11 of e-court, please.
12 Q. Mr. Riedlmayer, what's the significance of the photograph's that
13 we now have in front of us?
14 A. This is a mosque in the town of Kozarac in Prijedor municipality.
15 It's the Mutnik mosque. It's a considerably old and prominent building.
16 As we saw in the slides yesterday, the most prominent landmark is the
17 minaret which you see in the pre-war photograph on the right. The
18 photograph at the left was taken after the war at a 90 degree angle
19 from -- clockwise from the pre-war photo, and you can see the minaret is
20 missing. The building has been completely burned out, and it's also
21 worth noting that this is a building that stands at some distance from
22 the main street on a small rise. So it's not likely to have gotten into
23 the way of other kinds of attacks. I think whatever happened to it
24 happened to it specifically.
25 Q. Were some categories of buildings more heavily damaged or
1 destroyed than others?
2 A. Yes. As I observe in my report, the old and prominent mosques,
3 the ones dating back to the Ottoman and Austrian period and especially
4 the listed monuments, the ones under special legal protection suffered a
5 higher percentage of damage than others did.
6 Q. If we could go to the next slide, please. This is, I think, your
7 first of two examples. Can you describe what's seen in this photograph?
8 A. This is the Aladza mosque in Foca. It was a protected monument.
9 It dates from the 16th century. The photo at left is a pre-war photo.
10 The photo at right was taken in 1996 after the end of the war, and you
11 can see that not only has the mosque been destroyed but the rubble has
12 also been removed. All that is still visible is the outlines of the
13 foundation and that circular pattern in front is the foundation of the
14 ablution fountain which you can see on the right in the pre-war photo.
15 Q. May we go to the next slide. Now, I think there are three slides
16 relating to this example.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Can you describe what's shown in this first slide.
19 A. Yes, this is the mosque of Sultan Mehmed the conqueror on top of
20 a hundred metre high cliff at Kuslat at the southern portion of Zvornik
21 municipality. It is reputing to be one of the oldest mosques in Bosnia
22 and it was a protected monument, listed by legislative protection. This
23 is a pre-war view from the institute for the protection of monuments
24 looking down into the valley.
25 Q. If we can go to the next slide?
1 A. At left is another photo taken before the war by the institute
2 for protection of monuments. You can see the mosque sitting on the
3 cliff. The photo at right was taken in May of 2002. It does not show a
4 mosque. If you look very carefully, the peak at the left of the top of
5 the cliff is where the mosque used to be. During my survey, I passed by
6 here and looked for the mosque, did not see it. I inquired about going
7 up there, and was told that it was a two-hour climb and it would take the
8 rest of the day. So I did not actually go up there but recorded the
9 absence of the mosque.
10 Q. If we could go to the next slide.
11 A. In 2006 I acquired a number of photographs taken at the mosque
12 site by local journalists and this is one of them. It shows that mosque
13 has been very heavily damaged. Parts of the walls, the roof, the minaret
14 are all missing.
15 Q. I want to turn now to new mosques and churches. Were they
16 damaged to the same extent?
17 A. I believe what you're referring to -- and maybe we could go to
18 the next slide. I don't know.
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. I observed, as I also mentioned in my report, that in the areas
21 that I surveyed ranging from Sanski Most in the west to Zvornik in the
22 east, there were a number of mosques and churches that were still under
23 construction on the eve of the war. Some of them were being used
24 informally for overflow crowds on holidays, but they had not been
25 officially inaugurated and registered with the civil authorities yet.
1 In a number of cases there were old mosques and churches next to
2 the newly built ones, and the old ones would be invariably destroyed or
3 heavily damaged while the as yet unregistered, unfinished building
4 usually had only minor damage.
5 This is an example. This is the new mosque in Hrustovo-Kukavice
6 in Sanski Most municipality. You can see there are two projectile
7 impacts on the facade, but otherwise the mosque, its domes, is intact.
8 Next to it at the right is the old mosque which we can see on the next
10 Q. Yes. If we could have the next slide, please.
11 A. This is the old mosque. This is a shot from the other side of
12 the building. So you see there in the rear the rear facade of the new
13 mosque. Next to it is the old mosque. It's completely burned out. On
14 the right is a shot of the interior. I apologise for the quality. It is
15 a bad colour Xerox of a photograph from a museum, but you can see that
16 there is the prayer niche and the pulpit and especially on the pulpit you
17 can see fire damage. This inside shot is immediately between the two
18 windows at right on the inside of the mosque.
19 Q. If we could go to the next slide, please. I think this is the
20 next example.
21 A. Yes. This is a mosque being at Donji Krizevici at Zvornik
22 municipality. As far as I'm aware, and as far as I was told by the
23 Islamic community of Zvornik, this is the only mosque in Zvornik
24 municipality out of more than 30 that survived the war relatively intact.
25 Like the mosque in Sanski Most, it was under construction. It's very
1 visibly a mosque. It has a finished dome, and behind it you can see the
2 beginnings of a minaret under construction. It was clearly visible from
3 the main highway leading from Zvornik and yet it suffered no damage other
4 than graffiti and stolen building materials during the war.
5 Q. What conclusions, if any, do you draw from new -- newer mosques
6 not receiving the same level of damage as the older mosques?
7 A. I think it indicates the fact that there must have been a pattern
8 of going after the mosques that were actually registered. I hesitate to
9 draw far reaching conclusion, that's really the Court's business, but I
10 think it's significant that these mosques that were unregistered but
11 otherwise highly visible were left untouched while the older ones were
12 destroyed almost without exception.
13 Q. You've already surveyed religious libraries and archives of the
14 Muslim and Catholic communities. There's two examples that you wish to
15 show the Court. The next -- if we could have the next slide, please.
16 What is the significance of this first example showing a drawing and a
18 A. The drawing represents the town mosque in Bratunac. It was the
19 headquarters of the Islamic Community in Bratunac municipality, and the
20 reason I'm showing a drawing rather than a photograph is because the
21 photographs taken before the war were taken long enough before the war
22 that they don't show the little annex building to the left of the mosque.
23 The annex building contained the chancery and the archives of the Islamic
24 Community of Bratunac. The photo at the right is one that I took, and I
25 believe what you're seeing there is part of the path that leads up
1 between the mosque which is no longer there and the annex building which
2 is no longer there. The entire site of the town mosque and of the Vakuf
3 building, the endowment building that housed the offices is completely
4 razed. This was taken in 2002.
5 Q. If we could look at the next slide, please.
6 A. This slide shows the town mosque and offices of the Islamic
7 Community of Zvornik. It's in the centre of the marketplace in Zvornik,
8 and the photo at left was taken just before the war. If you look to the
9 left of the mosque is a large tree. This is a linden tree, sometimes
10 known in British English as lime tree. In Bosnian it's known as "lipa,"
11 and it was a custom in Bosnia to plant linden trees next to the entrances
12 of mosques.
13 I point this out because in the photograph at the right you can
14 see the linden tree. Again, we're looking at the mosque from 90 degrees
15 clockwise. You see the linden tree with a deposit of garbage in front of
16 it, and both the mosque and the small building that was next to it that
17 housed the offices of the Islamic Community are gone. It had been used
18 as a parking lot during and after the war. By the time I came in 2002, a
19 court decision had compelled the municipal authorities to put a fence
20 around it.
21 Q. And I want to deal now with what happened to the Muslim and
22 Catholic religious and cultural sites after the buildings were destroyed.
23 What -- what were their main uses of these areas?
24 A. Well, as I indicated in some cases they were used as parking
25 lots, as flea markets, very often as deposits for garbage. Sometimes
1 junked automobiles would be piled on the site. In some cases there would
2 be appropriation for other uses.
3 Q. If we can go through the next three slides. First of all, what
4 does this photograph show?
5 A. This shows another mosque in Zvornik, the Beksuja Dzamija. It
6 was an old mosque in a residential neighbourhood and the mosque is
7 completely gone. You can still see the linden tree. The pre-war photo
8 is very old, but you can see the fragments of a wall and a huge dumpster
9 full of garbage. This was in July, and the smell was rather overbearing.
10 Right to the left of the scene is a large block of flats. So it was a
11 rather odd place to keep the garbage.
12 Q. If the next slide can be shown.
13 A. This is the third mosque in Zvornik. It is the Zamlaz mosque,
14 and you can see it in the pre-war photo. To the right of it is a
15 three-storey building with the characteristic striped pattern next to the
16 windows. You can see that same building on the right of the photo at the
17 right, which was taken in 2002, I believe. The mosque is gone and a
18 block of flats and shops is under construction. This site has been
19 appropriated and turned to commercial uses.
20 Q. If we could go to the --
21 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, Ms. Sutherland. Just, could -- oh,
22 yes. This will do as well. A quick clarification. Probably I have -- I
23 missed something yesterday.
24 Does this number by any chance have any significance? Is it
25 related to cross-reference to some other -- yes.
1 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour. Yes, Your Honour. In order
2 assist the Chamber, Mr. Riedlmayer put the number of the formatted record
3 for that particular mosque. So if you are going to --
4 JUDGE KWON: For example, this is 22.31 --
5 MS. SUTHERLAND: So if you go to Exhibit P4070, which is the
6 formatted records, you will see the same pictures and all of the detail
7 which comes from the survey database. And please correct me if I'm
8 misstating this situation, Mr. Riedlmayer.
9 A. Yes.
10 JUDGE KWON: Formatted record.
11 MS. SUTHERLAND: So we have the --
12 JUDGE KWON: Which we received in CD format.
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, that is uploaded in e-court. What is on the
14 CD-ROM is the survey database, because that is the -- the very, very
15 large records of 381 sites, which is on a particular FileMaker software
16 which is incompatible with e-court. So --
17 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: -- that isn't in e-court but the formatted the
19 records are.
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND:
22 Q. And Mr. Riedlmayer, what's -- what's shown in this photograph,
23 very quickly?
24 A. Yes. This is another Muslim house of worship in a village just
25 outside of Zvornik. It's the shrine at Divic. The photo at left shows
1 how it looked a couple of years before the war. They had just
2 refurbished it and there was a worship ceremony. The photo at right is
3 one that I took. You can see that the shrine has been razed to its
4 foundations, and there is a truck, a lorry dumped on the far end of the
5 foundation, which is where the tombs of the Muslim saints who founded
6 this were located.
7 Q. And I want to go to the final two slides. Can you please
8 describe what is shown in the first -- in the first slide?
9 A. This is a village mosque in Novoseoci Sokolac municipality. It's
10 in the Romanija mountains north of Sarajevo. The photo at left is from
11 the invitation to the opening of the mosque. It was rebuilt after having
12 been destroyed in World War II, only in 1990, and at right you can see
13 what the site of the mosque looked like after the war in September of
14 1992. According to information from the Islamic Community, the mosque
15 was destroyed and the villagers driven out.
16 Next slide. These are the remains of the mosque identified as
17 such located at a municipal garbage dump at Ivan Polja about 6 kilometres
18 away from the village. The remains of the mosque were dumped along with
19 tonnes of municipal garbage, and in 2000 an exhumation was carried out on
20 the site by the Institute For Missing Persons and found beneath the
21 rubble of the mosque were the remains of more than 40 residents of
22 Novoseoci who had last seen alive in September of 1992.
23 Q. Do you know the ethnicity of those persons?
24 A. Yes. They -- it was a Muslim village, and they were Muslim
25 residents, and they had been congregants of this mosque.
1 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, that completes the slides. I would
2 tender 65 ter number 23553, please.
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes, it will be admitted.
4 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P4071, Your Honours.
5 MS. SUTHERLAND:
6 Q. Mr. Riedlmayer, after you submitted your expert report, the
7 survey database, and the formatted records, you provided two photographs
8 which you wanted to submit as additional documentation for your expert
9 report. These two photographs relate to sites 17.9 from the formatted
10 records relating to Donja Puharska in the Prijedor municipality; is that
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. Copies of these -- both of those photographs are already exhibits
14 in this case, Exhibit P03564 and P03565. If we could have both of those
15 brought up on the screen.
16 Okay, this is P03564.
17 A. Okay. Would you like me to comment on it?
18 Q. Yes, please.
19 A. Yes. The reason I was pleased to get these two additional
20 photographs which I obtained from the Islamic Community of Prijedor is
21 that when I visited this particular site in 2002, the rubble had already
22 been cleared and all that was left was bare foundations and the damaged
23 house to the right of the mosque. These photos were taken in the late
24 summer of 1992, I believe in September of 1992, and if one looks at them
25 closely, first of all it becomes clear that this was a mosque.
1 Immediately to the left of the house, the shiny white brick is the
2 distinctive covering of the minaret of this mosque. This mosque was the
3 first one in Prijedor municipality to be built with a dome and with this
4 particular kind of modern covering on the minarets.
5 Next slide.
6 Q. Actually, before we move to the next slide, I need to correct the
7 record. This is Exhibit P03565, I just see from the 65 ter number that I
8 can see at the top of the screen. So if we could have Exhibit P03564
9 now, please. Which is 65 ter number 10978.
10 A. Here you have the scene from another angle, and you can see once
11 again the covering of the minaret, and lying on the ground at the right
12 is the conical top of the minaret.
13 Q. Thank you. I've finished with those two exhibits.
14 Mr. Riedlmayer in your report, expert report, in paragraphs 21 to 57,
15 those paragraphs contain your findings. First of all, in relation to the
16 Islamic religious sites, paragraph 26 of the report states that 266 of
17 the 281 mosques surveyed were heavily damaged or destroyed, or put
18 another way, 95 per cent of those buildings were heavily damaged or
20 Taking into account the dropped Schedule D sites, does this
21 percentage change at all?
22 A. I actually did the calculation, and it changes it by less than
23 half a per cent.
24 Q. And I think the -- the figures with the dropped sites, it becomes
25 226 of 239 mosques surveyed, with a total of 94.6 per cent. Is that --
1 is that right?
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. Secondly, in relation to Roman Catholic sites, in paragraph 45 of
4 the report you state that 32 of the 42 Catholic churches surveyed were
5 heavily damaged or destroyed; or put another way, 76 per cent were
6 heavily damaged or destroyed. Again, taking into account the dropped
7 Schedule D sites, does this percentage change at all?
8 A. It changes but very minimally, by about 2 per cent, I believe.
9 Q. And with the new figures with the dropped sites is 26 of 42
10 Catholic churches surveyed where 74.3 per cent were heavily damaged or
11 destroyed; is that right?
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. Did you observe any other patterns with respect to the cultural
14 destruction in the large number of sites you've researched?
15 A. Yes. The pattern of destruction pretty much cover the areas that
16 had come under the control of Bosnian Serb forces in the municipalities
17 that I surveyed. If one mapped the destroyed mosque sites, it was almost
18 possible to draw a territorial map of what areas had been conquered by
19 the Bosnian Serb forces. On the other side of that, there would be
20 damage just beyond the confrontation line and only scattered damage
21 elsewhere, but in the areas that were controlled by Bosnian Serb forces,
22 there were virtually no mosques left intact. There's one famous example
23 of an exception in a municipality that's outside of the scope of the
24 survey, the village of Donja Baljvine in Mrkonjic Grad municipality,
25 where local Serb residents stopped Serb paramilitaries from destroying
1 the mosque.
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Mr. Riedlmayer. I have no further
4 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Ms. Sutherland.
5 Very well. Mr. Karadzic, before you begin, I have to mention
6 that we continue to sit pursuant to Rule 15 bis today as well, and I also
7 note the absence of Mr. Robinson today for the record.
8 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Excellencies. Good
10 morning to everyone.
11 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
12 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Riedlmayer, good morning.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, I think that the cold
14 air is still coming in, not directly at me, but I think it's more than
15 necessary. Perhaps I'm just more sensitive because I am recovering, but
16 I think this should not be happening in December. Perhaps we can arrange
17 to have the overall temperature in the courtroom just a couple of degrees
18 higher. So I would kindly ask for the Registry to see if the temperature
19 can be a bit higher in the courtroom.
20 Q. Mr. Riedlmayer --
21 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
22 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
23 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber will look into the matter.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Riedlmayer, are you a scientist?
1 A. No, I'm not -- not a scientist in that sense. I -- my education
2 is in the social sciences and the humanities, not in the natural
4 Q. And during your schooling, did you ever take any exams in
6 A. I did.
7 Q. So what exactly is your profession?
8 A. I'm an art documentation specialist. This is what I've done for
9 the last 26 years professionally. I have a degree from the school of
10 library and information science, and as I published in the literature of
11 the field, that is my principal profession.
12 Q. Thank you. So you were given the task, and this is something
13 that you talk about in the first paragraph, that your task was to
14 document the damage inflicted on cultural and religious sites in the
15 communities of Bosnian Muslims and Bosnian Croats, meaning Catholics, at
16 least in 14 municipalities. So it was your assignment to document. Was
17 it also your task to document only the Muslim and Croatian religious
18 objects or sites?
19 A. When I received this assignment, like the previous reports I
20 performed for other cases for this Tribunal, I asked for clarification as
21 to whether I should cover only the Bosnian Muslim and Bosnian Croat
22 related sites, or more generally, all cultural heritage, and I was
23 informed that my task was to document the sites that related to the
24 non-Serb communities.
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Sutherland.
1 MS. SUTHERLAND: Excuse the interruption, but Mr. Karadzic
2 referred to 14 municipalities. I'm wondering what report he's reading.
3 Mr. Riedlmayer's report deals with 22 municipalities, and I don't see it
4 in paragraph 1 of that report in any event.
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Probably a mistake. Yes, let's continue.
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: He may be referring to one -- one of the other
7 six reports that Mr. Riedlmayer's done.
8 JUDGE KWON: Mm-hmm.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is the destruction of the
10 cultural heritage in Bosnia and Herzegovina, copyright 2003,
11 Andras Riedlmayer.
12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes. That's another report. Perhaps the
13 Krajisnik report or one of the others.
14 THE WITNESS: That's -- yes, quite likely.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's possible, but I believe that
16 the main things remain unchanged.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Were you told thus not to investigate the damage on Serb
19 religious and cultural heritage, and were you never called upon to
20 testify in a case against Muslim and Croat military and political
22 A. I was told, as I just stated, to document the damage to the
23 cultural and religious heritage of the non-Serb communities and the -- in
24 the context of Bosnia, I did not testify against either Muslim or Croat
25 military or political leaders. However, in the two other cases that I --
1 I'm sorry, the three other cases that I testified on Kosovo, I did
2 include the Serb heritage. I was merely following the instructions that
3 I received.
4 Q. Thank you. So you say that you received instructions from the
5 Prosecution, and then you say the findings and the conclusions in these
6 reports are those of the author. If I understood you correctly, the
7 instructions were just as you stated them; right?
8 A. They were part of the terms of reference of my mission. This is
9 what I was asked to report on. I assume because these are the ones that
10 relate to the charges in this case.
11 Q. Thank you. So you were asked to find and to document buildings
12 that are going to confirm the allegations contained in the indictment; is
13 that correct?
14 A. I wouldn't put it in that manner. I was asked to survey the
15 state of the heritage of the non-Serb communities in these
16 municipalities. It was not prescribed to me whether or not they would
17 confirm or fail to confirm the charges.
18 Q. But in lines 22 and 23 and 24 of page 17, that is precisely what
19 you've said, that you assume that you were given the assignment based on
20 the content of the indictment - is that correct? - and which in that
21 case is in line with the requirements of the indictment; is that correct?
22 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Sutherland.
23 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, Mr. Karadzic is clearly reading
24 from another report. I have a spare copy of the redacted version of
25 Mr. Riedlmayer's report which is --
1 JUDGE KWON: Did he not refer to the transcript of today, page
2 17, lines 22 --
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Precisely, yes.
4 MS. SUTHERLAND: My apologies. I don't know whether Mr. Karadzic
5 wants this copy of the report that's actually in evidence at P4068.
6 JUDGE KWON: Would you like to have one?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that I do have it in
8 English, but I made my notes in the Serbian version, but I do have a copy
9 in English. Thank you.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. All right. Very well. Did this imply an investigation to be
12 carried out about the perpetrators, the circumstances, and the intent?
13 More precisely, what were you able to conclude beyond any reasonable
15 A. The questions of -- of reasonable doubt, I assume, are something
16 for the Court to decide, as are questions of ultimate responsibility.
17 What I was able to conclude was factual and statistical conclusions about
18 the objects, about the buildings and institutions I was asked to report
19 on. What my report does include is interviews with informants, some of
20 whom refer to responsibility questions, but those are not from me. My
21 interviews with them had to do largely with the question of when these
22 objects were destroyed. The things that I was trying to exclude is
23 either buildings that were destroyed before the war or after the war.
24 Much of this investigation occurred several years after the incidents
25 occurred, and therefore it was vital that I find out what the state of
1 these buildings was at the conclusion of the war at least.
2 Q. Thank you. You were able to establish beyond any reasonable
3 doubt that something was demolished or knocked down; is that correct?
4 A. Yes. And in a number of cases I was able, through observation,
5 to establish how the building was destroyed, whether it was the result of
6 blast or fire.
7 Q. Are you an expert who could establish such matters, or did you
8 have access to an expert who would be able to establish these matters?
9 A. No, I am not a trained arson investigator, and I'm not an expert
10 in explosives. However, I would say that I've been at this now for more
11 than a decade, and I have read the professional literature. I have
12 visited and viewed well over a thousand destroyed buildings and have
13 developed a degree of expertise in it. Most of my observations are based
14 on simple common sense. If a building is missing its roof, the walls are
15 charred, and there are bits of burned wood embedded in the masonry, it is
16 an indication that there has been a fire. I don't think one needs to
17 carry out scientific tests to establish that. If there are large holes
18 in the walls and the missing masonry is cast at some distance, that, I
19 think, is a clear sign of explosion, and one does not need to be a
20 military expert.
21 I was very careful in the language I used to refer to blast,
22 because I'm not one to distinguish between different types of munition,
23 but given those limitations, I think I can draw some useful conclusions
24 from my observations.
25 Q. Thank you. Did you then establish the circumstances? For
1 example, earlier we just saw the new mosque in Hrustovo. Did you know or
2 do you know what was going on in Hrustovo?
3 A. That was not part of my investigation. I -- I was out there to
4 establish facts about buildings, not about the whole context of the
6 Q. So you did not determine whether fighting was going on at a
7 particular location or not, and that photograph with a mortar hole is
8 basically not explained, and it's not placed in context; is that correct?
9 A. I was able in many instances to determine things like were there
10 large numbers of bullet holes in a building or whether there were any
11 kind of explosive holes in the building, but, no, I don't know whether or
12 when there was a battle in the area or exactly what happened. I think
13 that is ultimately something to be determined from other sources.
14 Q. Thank you. And you did not establish anything in terms of the
15 perpetrators; is that correct?
16 A. No. That was not my responsibility. The best I could do is
17 establish the time when this happened, and I assume conclusions can be
18 drawn from that.
19 Q. When you say that something is demolished in Serbian territory,
20 then the next step would be to say that this was demolished by the Serbs.
21 Are you able to tell us which Serbs, or at least are you able to tell us
22 whether this was the authorities or somebody else? Did you establish
23 that it was the authorities that were behind these events?
24 A. Okay. Well, again, establishing responsibility is not my task as
25 an expert. However, I can make the observation that, for example, in a
1 number of places such as Prijedor, buildings were destroyed at a time
2 when there was -- when the community was under full control of the
3 Bosnian Serb authorities. I'm aware in general outlines of the history
4 of the Bosnian war, so I'm aware of that much.
5 I also know that in a number of locations the destruction of the
6 buildings was carried out after the initial blast or fire by the
7 municipal authorities using the equipment of the municipality to remove
8 the rubble. So in that sense, yes, I can draw a certain limited number
9 of conclusions.
10 JUDGE KWON: Is that what you heard from the people,
11 Mr. Riedlmayer?
12 THE WITNESS: That -- that is what I heard, and as in the example
13 of Novoseoci, I think the facts speak to the removal of the rubble.
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. If you're not able to tell whether this was carried out,
17 supported, or executed by the authorities or the paramilitary forces, am
18 I correct then when I say that you were gathering evidence relating to
19 civil war and not against Serbs? Because if that is the case, then I can
20 support you.
21 A. I am not sure I understand your question, sir.
22 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, rest assured that Mr. Riedlmayer has
23 testified in relation to the fact itself. He didn't testify as to who is
24 responsible at all.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. However, I am concerned about some conclusions and the manner of
4 making the conclusions. For example, you say that new mosques were less
5 damaged than the old ones, and your interpretation is that this is
6 because the old mosques were registered. Is that the only
7 interpretation, or is there some other possible interpretation?
8 A. I am open to other possible interpretations, but I haven't found
10 Q. Since you are knowledgeable about Islam and Islamic culture, do
11 you know that mosques are barracks at the same time as well as
12 recruitment centres and weapons ammunition and explosion depots as well
13 as distribution points for weapons, and that these were mostly old
14 mosques that were being used while new mosques were not in a position to
15 be used for such purposes?
16 A. I have not heard any such thing, but ...
17 Q. For example, when a new mosque was opened in Kakanj in 1990, when
18 the Imam says publicly in a speech that this will not only be a house of
19 worship but also a barracks, you didn't notice things like that, did you?
20 A. Kakanj was not one of the municipalities that I covered, and I'm
21 not aware of, you know, the contents of sermons.
22 Q. Thank you. Who was in power in Baljvine? You said that this was
23 an exception that you noted. You said that the authorities in Baljvine
24 managed to dissuade the paramilitaries from destroying the mosque. Do
25 you know who was in power at the time in Mrkonjic Grad and Baljvine.
1 A. Okay. I did not say that the authorities in Baljvine dissuaded
2 the paramilitaries. It was Serb residents standing up for their
3 neighbours. The information I have comes from a book by Svetlana Broz
4 Croatia who interviewed the residents and included it in her book called:
5 "Good People in an Evil Time."
6 Q. Did you know that the police in Bijeljina, after the paramilitary
7 forces members were arrested in 1992, interrogated them about who
8 destroyed the mosque in Bijeljina and why this was done? There was also
9 some talk about the copper from the mosque, and do you know that the
10 police did carry out an investigation into that matter?
11 A. I'm not aware of the investigation. However, I knew about what
12 happened to the mosque in Bijeljina. In 1992, there was extensive
13 vandalism to mosques, but no mosques were destroyed. The mosques in
14 Bijeljina were destroyed in the spring of 1993 when Bijeljina was fully
15 under control of the Bosnian Serb authorities, I believe, and there was
16 no fighting in the area.
17 Q. You also talked about Brcko and Bijeljina as being under the
18 control of Bosnian Serb forces. Are you familiar with the way the
19 authorities functioned in Bijeljina and Brcko, and are you aware of the
20 efforts of the Serbian authorities to eliminate the paramilitary forces
21 in those towns?
22 A. That was not part of my study.
23 Q. Mr. Riedlmayer, then you cannot say that they were fully under
24 the control of the Serb forces, can you?
25 A. All I know is my background knowledge that at the time the
1 mosques were destroyed that there was no fighting in the area. As I say,
2 my field survey was not meant to investigate all the circumstances of --
3 of the destruction.
4 Q. Thank you. Nevertheless, I'd like us to go back to the question
5 of professionalism and objectivity. Are you interested in the outcome of
6 this trial of mine?
7 A. I am following it as I follow many of the trials at the Tribunal,
8 but I am not here to judge you. That is the job of the Bench.
9 Q. Thank you. However, on the whole, do you have an interest in the
10 outcome of proceedings against Serbs in Serbia? Are you a proper
11 impartial witness?
12 A. I am not a -- I don't have a specific interest that goes against
13 the interests of Serbs. I do have an interest to see that justice is
14 done, and whether it's Serbs or Muslims or Croats or Albanians, I hope
15 that those who are responsible for crimes against humanity and other
16 violations of international law will be prosecuted and punished, but I am
17 no more in favour of sparing a non-Serb suspect than I am in sparing a
18 Serb suspect, and anybody who is charged and turns out to be not proven
19 guilty should be freed, in my opinion.
20 Q. However, until now, you were involved to a great degree in work
21 against Serb structures. I believe that your lecture today also serves
22 that purpose. So far have you been very active in presenting different
23 variants of the Serb guilt? Have you been doing that throughout the
25 A. Okay. Well, to go specifically to the subject of my lecture
1 today, it deals with issues of post-war reconstruction. I don't see how
2 that militates against Serb structures or anything else. I was putting
3 the finishing touches on the lecture yesterday, and there are quite a bit
4 of contents in there that are critical of both Muslims and Croats. The
5 lecture is being delivered at the Meertens Institute of the Royal Dutch
6 Academy of Sciences. It is not part of a political conspiracy of any
8 Q. Thank you. I'm not talking about a conspiracy. I'm talking
9 about freelancers, as it were. Can you confirm that you wrote a short
10 history of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
11 A. I know the document to which you are referring. It was
12 introduced already in the Milosevic case. It is not a formal
13 publication. It was written in 1993 and posted on a web site. It is
14 meant to be a short pamphlet. It's not part of my formal publication
15 record. I tendered into evidence my CV -- or my CV's been tendered into
16 evidence, and in there you will find my formal writings, and I would
17 challenge you to find things in there that are anti-Serb.
18 Q. Tell me this: I'm not only interested in being anti -- in
19 someone being anti-Serb, but also I'm interested in competence as such.
20 Do you know what the social order was in Bosnia-Herzegovina at
21 the time of the Berlin Congress when Austro-Hungary was given the mandate
22 to enter Bosnia? What social order was in place?
23 A. Okay. As it happens, I wrote my senior thesis in college on
24 that. It was many years ago, and it was mainly a work on diplomatic
25 history, but I am aware that in the 1870s, in late Ottoman Bosnia, there
1 were large landowners, and there were "kmets," the equivalent of serfs,
2 who did not own land and who were badly exploited. I know what the
3 social order was. I'm not sure, however, how that relates to my
4 competence in writing an expert report.
5 Q. Can we see 1D04902. That's that text.
6 Let us summarise. So you agree in Bosnia-Herzegovina at the time
7 of the Berlin Congress feudalism was the social order of the day, right?
8 A. Well, feudalism is very specific to Western context, but, yes, it
9 was definitely an inequitable distribution of land, and the vast majority
10 of the people were exploited. This was in the 19th century. The same
11 conditions in Russia.
12 Q. Can we have a look at the next page of this document, please.
13 Do you agree that in Serbia already in 1804, in addition to this
14 liberation movement, there was also a bourgeoise revolution that had been
15 carried out?
16 A. Okay. Well, the 19th century revolutions in the various Balkan
17 countries all were a mixture of peasant revolts and the revolts of the
18 merchant class. Karadjordje, the Serb leader who led the 1804
19 revolution, was himself a wealthy merchant. He was -- he had aspiration
20 that came from his exposure to some of the ideas that were coming out of
21 the French revolution and enlightenment, so -- but again, I don't know
22 what the pertinence is to my report here.
23 Q. Well, we shall see what it is, but I'm sure that you recall
24 Leopold Ranke's well-known writings, especially a paper entitled: "The
25 Serb Revolution of 1804"; right?
1 A. I can't say that I read that. It was not part of my speciality,
3 Q. Thank you. Can we have a look at the second paragraph here where
4 you say that Serbia in 1389 [In English] "... had suffered a humiliating
5 defeat at the hands of the Turks at the famous battle of Kosovo and had
6 been reduced to the status of an Ottoman vassal."
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. [Interpretation] Do you know that at that point in time there was
9 a draw, and France was celebrating the victory of a Christian army and
10 that Serbia survived for another 100 years after that?
11 A. Okay. Well, now that we're back in the 14th century, yes, I know
12 that at the end of the battle both the Serb leader and the Ottoman Sultan
13 were dead and that Serbia did not completely disappear from the map for
14 roughly another 70 or 80 years. However, during that period, it was a
15 vassal state of the Ottoman Empire. I would remind you again, though,
16 that what you are looking at here is a very informal history. It covers
17 the Balkans from the late Roman times to 1993 in a total of about six and
18 a half A4 pages without footnotes. So you can't expect to see elaborate
20 Q. All right. Then we're going to abandon that. You also refer to
21 King Tvrtko. Do you know that King Tvrtko was a Serb King?
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
23 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour. Sorry, I've refrained from
24 objecting, but really, what is the relevance of this to Mr. Riedlmayer's
25 expert report?
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. All right. Let's move on to page 3, paragraph 3. This is what
4 you say there:
5 [In English] "The Muslim Slavs saw no place for themselves in
6 this proposed new order and continued to advocate the old Bosnian ideal
7 of a pluralist multi-confessional society. For obvious reasons, the
8 latter was also deorientation favoured by Austro-Hungarian authorities."
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I'm sorry, but unless this goes an
10 issue relating to Mr. Riedlmayer, then I don't see the relevance.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am trying to show that
12 Mr. Riedlmayer is an activist who is laying a foundation for condemning
13 Serbs on each and every occasion. This paragraph shows that
14 Mr. Riedlmayer believes that the feudal system in Bosnia-Herzegovina,
15 where Christians did not have land or any rights whatsoever, was an ideal
16 of a multi-ethnic and multi-religious society. However, that was slavery
17 for Christians.
18 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, how does it relate to his report? In
19 this regard I need to correct what I have said earlier on. It's
20 transcript page 22. I've forgot the lines. I said that Mr. Riedlmayer
21 didn't testify as to who is responsible at all, but even if as a matter
22 he may have done, however, what I meant was that the Chamber would not
23 rely on Mr. Riedlmayer's evidence in finding who is responsible for
25 This -- I don't see any point of going into this detail about the
1 history of Serbia or Bosnia and Herzegovina, so let's come to the
2 important points, relevant points, Mr. Karadzic.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Then I'm going to skip
4 over all of those periods. However, what is of exceptional importance to
5 me is to see whether this witness is impartial, whether he is a proper
6 witness as such, so I would like us to see how Mr. Riedlmayer speaks
7 about the Serbs during the course of the Second World War.
8 Page 4, please, of this document, paragraph 3. Can we please
9 have page 4, paragraph 3.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. The second paragraph speaks about what Ustasha Croatia was, and
12 what you say at the bottom of this paragraph is that as part of a
13 short-lived all Muslim SS division -- you're probably talking about the
14 Handzar Division. Do you know that that was the most cruel division of
15 all and that they were there for two years?
16 A. I know about the Handzar Division, yes.
17 Q. However, in the very next paragraph you equate Serbia and Croatia
18 in the Second World War; is that right? You say that a similar campaign
19 was carried on under General Nedic, who operated concentration camps for
20 Jews, non-Serbs, and his Serb political opponents; right?
21 A. That is correct. I'm -- by doing that, I'm not equating
22 anything. I'm simply describing what I believe to be a matter of
23 established fact. The Croatian regime under Pavelic had its own
24 particular evils and so did Nedic. It is a fact that there were
25 concentration camps operated by Nedic, and it is a fact that they
1 persecuted Jews as well as Serbo opponents, and the fact is that they
2 collaborated. Like General Petain in France, Nedic was obsessed with the
3 fact that in World War I so much of Serbia's youth had been lost on
4 battle fronts, and his collaboration in large part stemmed from that fear
5 that this slaughter would be related. At the same time just like Petain,
6 he had very right-wing opinions and in many ways sympathised with the far
7 right and with the social ideas of the Nazis. So by saying that I'm not
8 saying he was the same as Pavelic, but certainly both of them were, in
9 their own manner, collaborators.
10 Q. Well, was this camp for Jews that was run by the Serb government,
11 even that kind of government, Nedic's government, where was there a camp
12 of that kind?
13 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, it's not the time for us to discuss
14 those matters. Let's come to the issues that Mr. Riedlmayer discussed in
15 his evidence in chief, please.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Then I kindly ask that we have a
17 document shown. I really have to show how partial Mr. Riedlmayer is, how
18 anti-Serb and partial he is, and these are dangerous things, and they are
19 followed by bombs. First satinisation [as interpreted] and then bombs.
20 And this is only the beginning. So Mr. Riedlmayer has an interest indeed
21 in the outcome of these proceedings.
22 I'm going to abandon this topic, but I would just like to see a
23 document before that, 1D4922, to show that things like this are dangerous
24 and highly detrimental and wrong. 1D4922.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Do you agree, Mr. Riedlmayer, that this is a map of the Yugoslav
2 territories in the Second World War?
3 A. It is.
4 Q. Do you see a difference between Serbia and Croatia? Croatia is
5 an independent state --
6 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, I don't see any relevance in this
7 document. Please move on to your next topic.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, the camp that
9 Mr. Riedlmayer is speaking of is in Belgrade, but it is in the State of
10 Croatia. You see how far the Croatian state goes, and it is under --
11 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, I said it's not relevant. Please move
12 on to your next topic.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this map be admitted simply so
14 that the Trial Chamber can have it as such?
15 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber has given its ruling as to the
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm a bit perplexed. How come I
18 cannot challenge professionalism and credibility?
19 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, are you challenging that the facts
20 that certain mosques referred to by Mr. Riedlmayer were really destroyed?
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What I'm challenging are the
22 implications stemming from certain conclusions made by Mr. Riedlmayer,
23 implications that this has to do with the Serb authorities, an organised
24 state, planning. First of all, I can prove what the foundation for such
25 a basis -- what the basis for such a position is and then how and why it
1 is wrong.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE KWON: I note the time, and the Chamber will have a -- take
4 a break for half an hour and resume at five to 11.00.
5 --- Recess taken at 10.24 a.m.
6 --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger.
8 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President. May I return briefly to a
9 matter the Court raised at the commencement of the session. I will raise
10 it in general terms as the -- as the Chamber did. I am confident we are
11 talking about the same matter, and I wish to advise the Chamber that the
12 Prosecution has -- does not oppose the motion.
13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
14 JUDGE BAIRD: Dr. Karadzic, the Chamber thinks that it should
15 reassure you that the conclusions that could be drawn from the evidence
16 of the witness as to Serb responsibility for the destruction of the
17 mosques would not be considered by the Chamber. As the witness rightly
18 said, the establishment of responsibility is not his task as an expert.
19 The President said it before the break, but we think we should
20 repeat it just so that you are fully apprised of the situation. Thank
22 JUDGE KWON: Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That you, Your Excellencies. Let
24 me wrap up the issue of history with one question.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Is it true, as the last paragraph purports to state, that you
2 wrote that pamphlet with a view to having the embargo on the -- on arms
3 for Muslims lifted?
4 A. Are you still referring to the document you displayed earlier?
5 Q. Yes, the short history of Bosnia.
6 A. Could I please see the last paragraph, because I don't recall it.
7 It's been many years.
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes. 1D4902. Not -- a brief history.
9 THE ACCUSED: 79. Last page, please. Not really. One less.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. It's the third paragraph from the bottom.
12 [In English] "Initiative to lift the arms embargo against
13 Bosnia's government and call for forceful international intervention to
14 end the conflict had been continually blocked in the UN and the other
15 international forums."
16 [Interpretation] Look at the entire paragraph where you speak in
17 favour of the embargo being lifted; i.e., you oppose the positions of all
18 those countries that would like the embargo to stay in place; right?
19 A. That was based on my understanding of Article 51 of Chapter VII
20 of the United Nations Charter, which I believe I cite elsewhere here,
21 which states that the right of self-defence of Member States is by no
22 means denied until such a time as when the Security Council can establish
23 peace and security. I'm paraphrasing, but that's the gist of it. And
24 the fact is that in 1993 and subsequently, the Security Council did not
25 succeed in its task of imposing peace and security, and therefore I
1 believed at the time that the arms embargo was counter-productive.
2 Q. Thank you. However, it seems to me that this arises from your
3 understanding of the interior structure of Bosnia. You say in several
4 places that this is the territory under the occupation of the Bosnian
5 Serbs. Do you not understand that the Bosnian Serbs were the population
6 in Bosnia that was there for the longest period of time and which covered
7 65 per cent of the territory? In other words, they were not in a -- in
8 another's country. They were in their own country, and who were they
9 supposed to be defending themselves from? It was an internal conflict.
10 A. Your Honours, I'm not here to argue the merits of the Bosnian
11 war. There are a number of things in the question that I could take
12 issue on, the figure of 65 per cent of the territory or the rather
13 pointless argument of who was there first, but I don't see how this has a
14 bearing to my testimony.
15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Yes.
16 Mr. Karadzic.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In that case, we'll go back to the
18 report itself. I'll call up several documents which speak to the
19 credibility and partiality, and I hope I'll have your leave to do so.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. In item 1 of your report, background to survey, you say:
22 [In English] "During the conflict in 1992-1995, conflict in
23 Bosnia, there were reports by various parties concerning the widespread
24 destruction of cultural and religious heritage."
25 [Interpretation] Therefore, there were also reports about the
1 destruction of Serb buildings; is that right?
2 A. That is correct.
3 Q. Do you see that there is a link between the destruction of one
4 set of buildings with that of the other set of buildings? Don't you see
5 that there is some sort of a retaliatory nature? You did speak about
6 that in the trial against President Milosevic. Do you make that
7 connection, or do you believe this to be a state plan?
8 A. As I recall from my testimony in the Milosevic case, I pointed
9 out that there were definite instances of tit for tat destruction at
10 specific times and specific places, but it was not the case in most of
11 the municipalities. I can think, for example, of the early phase of the
12 war along the Sava River in the north and south of Mostar in 1992 where
13 you had precisely this kind of thing going on between Croat militias and
14 Serb forces where, for example, in Mostar the two Catholic churches in
15 Mostar were hit by the Serb forces during the 1992 siege, and after that
16 Croat nationalists blew up the Serb cathedral and the old Orthodox
18 Similarly, along the Sava River there were such things, and I
19 would say I saw some traces of this during my survey, although it was not
20 my task for the Tribunal to look at destruction of Serb churches. When I
21 went to localities which had such signs, I recorded them because I was
22 curious for my own research. So, for example, in Bukvik near Brcko there
23 was a burned-out church.
24 Finally in the very end stage of the war, in September/October of
25 1995, there were a number of Serb churches that were attacked in the
1 western part of Bosnia. This is in Sanski Most municipality, mainly, and
2 Kljuc municipality, where the Bosnian Army broke out of the Bihac pocket
3 in the last weeks of the war, and at that point a number of Serb churches
4 were burned, and I indeed have a collection of photos of those and plan
5 to do something with them, but that was not part of my brief for this
7 On the other hand, I would underline that in most places in
8 Bosnia, the destruction was very one-sided, and I would also keep the
9 time sequence in mind.
10 Q. Well, do you recall when Zitomislic as a very old monastery, I
11 think dating back to the 16th century, when Zitomislic - which was a very
12 important place for worship for the Serbs - when it was destroyed?
13 A. As I recall it was destroyed in the early summer of 1992 by Croat
14 forces. I actually wrote something about that.
15 Q. You see, you refer to the context, and that is a good thing.
16 However, did you not notice certain patterns? For instance, you say that
17 the Catholic churches in Western Bosnia and along the Sava were
18 destroyed, and most of the destruction came about in 1991 before the war
19 in Bosnia broke out, and in 1995. Did you notice that this was connected
20 with the outbreak of the conflicts in Croatia and with the onset of
21 refugees both in 1991 and in 1995?
22 A. Well, actually, I would correct that the -- there was a very
23 small amount of destruction in 1991 as the war in Croatia spilled over,
24 but most of the destruction actually happened in 1992. The second wave
25 of destruction happened in 1995, did coincide with the renewed outbreak
1 of fighting in Croatia.
2 Q. Thank you. In contrast to that, you observed, and rightly so,
3 although I'm not sure your interpretation was correct, that the Catholic
4 churches at Pale and along the Drina and Rogatica and at Cajnice, I
5 believe, were not destroyed. Do you agree that this was the case because
6 in that area there were no refugees arriving from Croatia; in other
7 words, there was no fleeing from the Croats, and there were no refugees
8 present whose churches had been destroyed in their native areas?
9 A. It's a two-part question, and I would like to answer part one
11 I believe that the churches at Pale and Rogatica and Cajnice
12 suffered only minor vandalism, in large part because there were hardly
13 any Croats living in that area. In most places where attacks occurred,
14 these occurred in the context of attacks against those communities, and
15 in Cajnice, for example, I think there were no more than a handful of
16 Croats living.
17 The second part you asked about, the refugees, I'm not aware of
18 to what extent refugees prayed -- played a role. As I said, I'm not in
19 the business of tracking down individual perpetrators.
20 Q. Thank you. I would by no means blame it on the refugees.
21 However, the influx of refugees does affect the mind-set and changes the
22 climate, does it not? An influx of refugees with their tragic stories
23 does have an impact on the mood in general. Would you agree?
24 A. No doubt.
25 Q. Thank you. You've just mentioned vandalism and the graffiti. Do
1 you believe that it was the authorities who wrote the graffiti or whether
2 it was done on their orders, and do you think that the emergence of
3 graffiti in the world has anything in any way to do with the authorities?
4 I'm referring to paragraph 42, although there are others where this is
6 A. Okay. I merely noted their presence. The vandalism as such
7 could be quite extensive. For example, in the church in Pale, the saint
8 statues were broken. The same thing was observed at the church in Brcko.
9 In a number of other places, I believe that -- I don't believe it was the
10 authorities that would have done such a thing. On the other hand, I
11 believe it is the responsibility of authorities to prevent and punish
12 such things.
13 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 40, you speak of the removal of the
14 rubble. Do you agree that it was in keeping with the rules of civilian
15 protection that the debris that was the result of the general destruction
16 in town should be removed and the public areas cleared up?
17 A. Well, I won't comment on what the policy was or should have been.
18 On the other hand, I do recall that both in Bijeljina and Banja Luka I've
19 seen videos of how this was carried out. In Bijeljina, for example, you
20 can see the old mosque in town being knocked down by bulldozers when it
21 was still substantially standing, so I don't think it's merely a matter
22 of public safety. It was, I believe, an active participation in the
24 In a number of places, not only in that one village I mentioned,
25 but in big cities, the rubble of the mosques was taken to the municipal
1 refuse dump and buried under tonnes of garbage. Again, if the
2 authorities had any respect for these monuments, they would merely remove
3 the rubble and keep it somewhere to perhaps be used in reconstruction.
4 So that's about as far as I can go in speculating about the authorities'
5 actions just based on what I've collected.
6 Q. Thank you. But when you say that there was a case of a building
7 apparently standing, don't you agree that it should be the expert on the
8 statics that should calculate whether it was innocuous for the general
9 public? Don't you think that it would have been up to them to decide the
11 A. I think we're veering into the realm of speculation, but I do
12 have some experience with architecture, and the simple way of preventing
13 an unstable building from hurting anybody is to put a fence around it.
14 Q. And if there is no chance of having a building reconstructed,
15 would this not have been the reason to remove the rubble?
16 A. Well, in many of these cases the buildings were listed monuments
17 of historical importance. I would believe that in any orderly
18 administration it would have been taken for granted that these sites
19 would be preserved and studied for possible reconstruction.
20 Q. In paragraph 31, you speak of the minarets that were damaged.
21 Did you establish or did you have any sort of information to the effect
22 that the mosques, and specifically minarets, were used as locations for
23 machine-gun emplacements or nests?
24 A. I didn't have any specific information to that effect. However,
25 wherever minarets were still standing, I took careful note to see whether
1 there were bullet holes in them or in the building, and one would expect
2 that if there were battles going on around the building that small arms
3 would be involved. Frankly, I'm not a military expert, but I would think
4 that a minaret would make a very poor position for somebody with a
5 machine-gun. It's a narrow staircase, and usually the balcony is very
6 exposed. So I -- that's about as far as I want to go on that.
7 Q. Thank you. Did you observe, and, if so, what specifically with
8 regard to blasts? You said that in most of the cases the explosives were
9 placed within the interior, right, and that the explosions happened from
10 within the interior of the mosque.
11 A. Actually, I did not say that. I said that the explosives were
12 placed inside the stairwell of the minaret, not inside the mosque. I am
13 sure there are instances where mosques were blown up by explosives from
14 within, but for the most part when you have a building like that, the
15 signs are of, first, fire, and then blasts of the walls, and it's not the
16 same thing as of the blowing up of the minarets. Very often the minarets
17 would be felled in such a way that they would fall across the mosque and
18 smash the walls and the roof. I have a number of examples of that. And
19 I believe the point was the destruction of the mosque. It was not an
20 accidental or coincidental thing.
21 Q. I'm asking you this because it is our position based on the
22 information we got that some of the mosques contained weapons and
23 explosives and, therefore, were destroyed as a result. In some cases the
24 damage was extensive and inflicted on the adjacent structures. Were you
25 able to observe anything of that sort?
1 A. Well, again it's a two-part question. The first part that they
2 contained weapons and explosives, I have not seen evidence of that, and
3 I've certainly not seen any confirmed stories about that. In any case, I
4 was not in a position to investigate that.
5 As far as the damage being extensive and inflicted on the
6 adjacent structures, one example is something I showed in court today,
7 the Aladza mosque in Foca, where in 1996 still surrounding buildings had
8 signs of damage from the blast, but I would note that the Aladza mosque
9 in Foca was destroyed some months after the take-over of Foca by the VRS,
10 and so it would amaze me to find that there were still Muslims harbouring
11 weapons in a mosque in a town that was already under the control of their
13 Q. My position is somewhat different when it comes to the strength
14 of the explosion. Do you know that, for instance, the Catholic church in
15 Doboj, when it was destroyed a great many structures around it were
16 destroyed in the process?
17 A. I know that the Catholic church in Doboj was annihilated by a
18 blast. By the time I went to Doboj in 2002, there was no damage to be
19 seen of surrounding houses, but I don't exclude that they existed. I did
20 talk to the parish priest who recounted to me how it was destroyed.
21 Q. It is my thesis, Mr. Riedlmayer, that this was done by
22 unprofessional, inept persons who laid out large amounts of explosives
23 and in an unprofessional way. Do you agree with me that professionals
24 would have gone about doing this differently?
25 A. Well, it's a lot of assumptions, sir. I do know of accounts of
1 destruction elsewhere which was carried out by professionals. For
2 example, the mosques in Banja Luka which were all destroyed during
3 curfew, and according to one account from an informant the Ferhadija
4 mosque in Banja Luka was roped off before it was destroyed, and residents
5 in neighbouring buildings were instructed to open their windows so they
6 wouldn't break. So that would strike me as a more professional approach,
7 I guess.
8 Q. Do you know of a single building which was destroyed in broad
9 daylight and professionally, and do you know of any such heroes who would
10 have boasted of having blown up structures, or was it, in fact, all done
11 clandestinely and at night?
12 A. Except for a small number of instances, I have dates of
13 destruction but not times of day. And that's all I can say with respect
14 to your question.
15 Q. Thank you. Did you hear of anyone boasting of having done as
16 much or of being proud about it, or was that too concealed?
17 A. I did read a lengthy interview published in "Salam" magazine with
18 someone who claimed to be part of a crew destroying a mosque in Prijedor
19 and described how they had orders to do it. They arrived with their
20 tools. They set to work. They put Black Sabbath on the mosque public
21 announcement system, they took out anything that was movable, and then
22 destroyed it. He seemed quite proud of it.
23 I didn't include it in my reports because, first of all, it was
24 an interview with someone with a pseudonym; and secondly, the building
25 wasn't specified; but finally, also, because it had had no real bearing
1 as to the specific monuments in my survey, but since you asked ...
2 Q. But that hero spoke under a pseudonym, did he not?
3 A. Yes, indeed.
4 Q. Thank you. I'm a bit puzzled by the statistics. For instance,
5 you say out of 200 or I don't know how many mosques, 107 were damaged and
6 a high percentage is stated. I'm just looking for it, but you do
7 remember that, don't you?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. I asked you about the statistics for this reason: Had you
10 reviewed only what these 107 mosques, your hit would have been 100
11 per cent; right? Is it not a bit unusual to say out of such and such a
12 number of those reviewed, there is a high percentage? Well, the
13 percentage would even have been higher. In fact, it would have been
14 higher had you gone and looked at only those 107, right?
15 A. I don't understand your point, sir.
16 Q. I'm trying to say that you chose 120, 107 of which were
17 destroyed, and that's a high percentage, but in relation to what?
18 JUDGE KWON: Let us see the passage first.
19 Yes, Ms. Sutherland.
20 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour I was about to ask for a cite,
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise. I will find this.
23 The witness knows this, but I will find it.
24 THE WITNESS: Ah, yes. Paragraph 26, I believe, sir, in the
1 JUDGE KWON: Where you refer to 266 mosques.
2 THE WITNESS: Right.
3 JUDGE KWON: Of these 125.
4 THE WITNESS: Yes.
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Is this the passage you refer to,
6 Mr. Karadzic?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, but this is something that
8 recurs in several -- in several places. I think out of 120, 107 were
9 found to be damaged, but this paragraph, too, states that out of such and
10 such a number of inspected mosques, do you agree that that variable of
11 inspected mosques is quite a flexible term and that it would be difficult
12 to base a conclusion on something like that?
13 A. Well, sir, if you read my report carefully, you will see that I
14 state in an earlier paragraph, and I'm sorry, I don't have the number in
15 front of me, in most of the municipalities we went to, and I'm saying
16 "we" because I had a driver, I managed to survey the great majority of
17 the sites. In almost every municipality I was able to interview the
18 local council of the Islamic Community or the local parish priest who
19 then provide a list of the houses of worship in their area and offer to
20 guide me to them.
21 If there are intact mosques that I somehow missed I would be
22 delighted to hear, but I don't think there were any.
23 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 14, you say that you toured 49 per cent
24 of the localities, and you described 51 per cent on the basis of
25 information from other sources; is that correct?
1 A. That's correct.
2 Q. Thank you. Did you have a Serb guide who could also give you
3 some information, or did you get your information exclusively from the
4 religious communities that were affected?
5 A. No. I got information from a great variety of sources. I got it
6 from the institute for the protection of monuments. As far as Serb
7 sources go, in a number of municipalities I took great care to acquire
8 cadastral -- extracts from the cadastral registers to make sure that the
9 empty site I was looking at had been a mosque or a church. So I did not
10 entirely rely on the religious communities. However, I must say that
11 since they were the primary interested parties, they were, therefore, a
12 particularly forthcoming source.
13 Q. In paragraph 22, you even mention the period which is included in
14 the indictment, and you say that no mosques were found that survived the
15 war. You're talking about 15 per cent and only 5 per cent is being
16 assessed as being only lightly damaged. Is this deliberate that you are
17 referring to the period of the indictment or was this a slip on your
19 A. No. The period of the indictment was part of my terms of
20 reference. I did, as I indicated earlier, make every effort to exclude
21 buildings that had been damaged either before or after the war, but the
22 active period is the period of the war.
23 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 23, you state that mosques with minarets
24 are visible from afar. Are you able to say whether other locations,
25 other buildings like mektebs, mejtefs are also visible from afar, even if
1 they don't have these outside exterior visible attributes? Are they also
2 easy to clearly define and classify by -- by their purpose just like
3 mosques with minarets are?
4 A. Well, sir, as I state in my report mektebs and mesjids, which
5 often don't have minarets, had a lower rate of destruction than did the
6 mosque with the minarets, and I assume that is in large part because they
7 were not easy to identify from the outside. Where they were destroyed, I
8 assume it was either because people went in or people had local
9 knowledge, but I don't want to speculate. I cite examples of a number of
10 these and they're in my database, and you're free to cite specifics and
11 we can talk about them.
12 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 31, you say that it was frequently said
13 that all mosques in the territory controlled by Bosnian Serb forces
14 during the war were completely destroyed, which is not always the case.
15 You listed some municipalities where some buildings not knocked down. In
16 that case could it be assumed, if we're talking about state policy, that
17 people in those municipalities were disobeying the central authorities or
18 that that perhaps was not a state policy at all?
19 A. Again, I don't want to speculate about motives, but first of all
20 I would like to correct something in your question.
21 The point of paragraph 31 that I intended, at least, is to point
22 out that not everything was completely levelled to the ground. "Razed"
23 in English is not merely destroyed. It means the building no longer
24 stands. It's my category "completely destroyed," there's nothing left.
25 And there was a lot of hyperbole after the war where people exaggerated
1 the extent of destruction. In fact, it was relatively uncommon for
2 mosques in smaller villages to be completely levelled to the ground. It
3 did happen. It was -- this was much more often seen in larger
4 settlements. The sole place I know where the -- there is a report of the
5 local population resisting an attempt to destroy a mosque is that village
6 we talked about in Mrkonjic Grad, Baljvine.
7 Q. Thank you. The mosque in Pale was not destroyed either; is that
9 A. I don't have access to my database. I believe it was a lightly
10 damaged building, just vandalised but not destroyed.
11 Q. Thank you. You mentioned Novoseoci today. Do you know when the
12 men from Novoseoci were died or were killed?
13 A. I don't know when they were killed, but I did read testimony. I
14 believe it was in the -- it's listed in my footnotes, it was either
15 Brdjanin or Krajisnik, probably Krajisnik case, which says that they were
16 last seen alive in September of 1992. I believe the story was, and Your
17 Honours may have heard testimony about this already, so there's no point
18 in me trying to summarise it, but as I recall the women and the men were
19 separated. The women were forced to walk across the confrontation line
20 to Sarajevo, and the men were not seen again until their bodies were
21 discovered under the rubble of the mosque at the dump in Ivan Polja.
22 Q. You also used transcripts - is that right? - when you were
23 drafting your report; is that correct?
24 A. Yes. I referred to transcripts at several places. I did not use
25 them extensively, but I did use them from when it was relevant to
1 discussing a particular building such as, for example, Novoseoci.
2 Q. And you were given the transcripts by the Prosecution; is that
4 A. I was not given the transcripts by anyone. I did what much of
5 the public can do. I went to the Tribunal's web site and I used its
6 search engine. It's available to anyone.
7 Q. Thank you. Can you recall the witnesses whose transcripts you
8 used as a source of information?
9 A. No. I merely noted down the passage. I don't remember names.
10 Q. And to which municipalities did the transcripts refer?
11 A. The one example I -- I remember is Novoseoci here but there may
12 be others. Novoseoci is in Sokolac.
13 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 55 you state that some scripts or the
14 library in the old mosque in Janja were destroyed. Do you know that
15 throughout the whole war Janja was inhabited only by Muslims and that
16 they still live there?
17 A. I visited Janja, and I talked to people there, which is how come
18 I know as much as I do about the manuscripts that were destroyed there
19 when the mosque was bulldozed.
20 I also heard from the people I spoke with and in media accounts I
21 read that there were expulsions of people from Janja during the war.
22 There are, as I recall, three entries from my database that deal with
23 Janja. The old mosque in Janja, the new mosque in Janja, and the
24 archives and library of the Islamic Community in Janja, and all three of
25 them were destroyed. I have extensive photographs. So -- including one
1 photograph which was taken while the mosque -- the old mosque, the
2 biggest mosque in town, was being bulldozed. So that helps establish how
3 and when it was done. The photograph came with a date stamp.
4 There was also published information about some of the
5 manuscripts in Janja from a manuscript survey done before the war.
6 Q. Very well. We will complete that with others. In the same
7 paragraph you also refer to Kula Grad in Zvornik. Do you know that
8 Kula Grad was in the hands of the Muslims for a long time, that they
9 turned it into a front, they fired from there, and they could have and
10 perhaps they did evacuate everything that they wanted to evacuate from
12 A. I know that after the fall of Zvornik there was resistance in
13 Kula Grad. I'm not aware of the exact history of the conflict in that
14 particular area, and certainly I don't know of anything that was
16 What I can speak to are the three monuments in Kula Grad. One
17 was the one you were referring to, the shrine of Hasan Kaimija, and I
18 had -- I visited it. I also had extensive photographs from before,
19 during, and after its destruction and reconstruction. And the second
20 monument in Kula Grad was the Kula Grad mosque of which very little was
21 left standing. It was destroyed by a blast. And the third one was the
22 mosque of Avdo Tuhcic, which is on a hill top behind the -- Kula Grad and
23 that, too, was badly damaged in the war and had to be reconstructed
24 after. So that's what I can speak to specifically. I cannot really
25 speak to what kind of fighting happened in that area. It's not what I'm
1 reporting on.
2 Q. Thank you. Can we look at D1606 briefly. Who informed you about
3 Kula Grad? Who was your guide?
4 A. My guide to Kula Grad was, I believe, the chief Imam of -- of
6 Q. He did not inform you that there was an Orthodox church there and
7 that it was no longer there at the time, and he did not inform you that
8 Zvornik got its name after the church bell tower?
9 A. Well, I'm aware of the story mainly because Branko Grujic, the
10 wartime mayor of Zvornik, gave extensive interviews in which he spoke
11 about the medieval Orthodox church that allegedly stood in the citadel
12 and which he was hoping to rebuild.
13 When I went to the citadel, there was already the beginnings of
14 that with a bell tower set up, but the Orthodox church was not destroyed
15 in this war. It disappeared centuries ago. So I don't know what the
16 relevance is to my report.
17 Q. Mr. Riedlmayer, it was frequently restored, and it was frequently
18 knocked down. Did anybody inform you about that?
19 A. I'm not aware of its detailed building history, but do I know
20 that it was not in existence in the late 20th century.
21 Q. Thank you. Can you please look at this document which talks
22 about combat actions from the Zvornik citadel and where a request is made
23 to fire at the Kula because there were attacks and fire coming from the
24 Kula and it was necessary to neutralise that?
25 A. Okay. Well, Your Honours, Kula Grad is actually the old Turkish
1 citadel above Zvornik. Zvornik is on the riverbank of the Drina and goes
2 up the hillside a ways, and then the old fortress, which is in a ruinous
3 state, is on top of the mountain overlooking it. So it is a naturally
4 defensible position. I accept that.
5 The damage, however, the blown up mosque and the damage to the
6 Hasan Kaimija shrine looked very extensive. It didn't look like it had
7 been hit in any kind of crossfire.
8 Q. But you're not a military expert, are you?
9 A. I don't claim to be.
10 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 74 here, you talk about Mr. Besic's map,
11 and I'm interested whether you explored also that side of our civil war,
12 the hostility directed against religious symbols, or were you just
13 looking for evidence of Serbian guilt?
14 A. Exactly what was the question? How is the destruction of
15 religious buildings a separate category from the destruction of religious
16 symbols? I am not sure what you're aiming at.
17 Q. My question refers to this: Did you explore or investigate that
18 received our civil war, or were you just looking for evidence of Serbian
20 A. I believe we went through this territory already, where I
21 discussed that the terms of reference for my survey had to do with the
22 destruction of non-Serb cultural sites, that I nevertheless remain
23 interested professionally and as a researcher in what happened to the
24 cultural heritage of all communities in Bosnia, and, so, yes, I'm aware.
25 I did not do a field survey for the Tribunal on it because I was not
1 asked to.
2 Q. Thank you. Did you draft any texts about the damage of Serb
3 religious and cultural heritage, incidentally? Did you ever publish
4 anything about that?
5 A. Yes. As a matter of fact, I wrote a small essay on Zitomislic,
6 and with respect to Serb heritage in Kosovo and now Bosnia, I've
7 published a number of things. I've not yet published anything more
8 detailed about damage to Serb cultural property in Bosnia, but it is my
9 intention to include it in a more general account of cultural damage
10 during the war, which I may work up into a web site or an article or
11 perhaps even a book.
12 Q. Thank you. I believe that perhaps I can create confusion here
13 because I have a different text printed up, but I'm interested whether
14 you'll stand by or abandon the assertion that monuments of major cultural
15 and historic significance were intended for destruction. Did you
16 establish that, and did you establish on whose intention they were to be
18 A. Okay. Well, the major monuments, and here I'm referring to the
19 ones that had actually been designated for legal protection within the
20 former Yugoslav system, as I described, were damaged at a higher rate.
21 Whether that speaks to intent or otherwise I will leave to the Court to
22 decide, but it is a statistical fact. There were no world heritage sites
23 in Bosnia before the war. There has been one added since then, the
24 reconstructed bridge at Mostar, but, yes, there was cultural heritage of
25 major significance destroyed such as the Aladza mosque, which apparently
1 was under consideration for a designation for UNESCO protection. So the
2 answer in short, yes, there were significant cultural losses and not just
3 to the local communities and that the buildings of greater historical or
4 cultural importance were disproportionally damaged.
5 Q. Do you have an explanation for that? An example would be that
6 older buildings are in more densely populated urban areas, perhaps, where
7 the antagonisms are greater.
8 A. Not necessarily. I showed at least one example of such a
9 building, the mosque at Kuslat, which was certainly far from any urban
10 area and virtually inaccessible. I can think of others such as the
11 mosque at Ustikolina which is in a tiny village and was reputed to be the
12 oldest mosque in Bosnia and was totally destroyed. So not necessarily.
13 I think if one had to speculate about an explanation about why such
14 things attracted more attention is perhaps because they were better known
15 and, therefore, attractive in -- in the bad sense.
16 Q. And the Ustikolina mosque that you say is the oldest, when was
17 that built?
18 A. It was originally built in the late 15th century. Dates such as
19 1449 are mentioned, but it's likely that the actual structure that we
20 have was erected later. It's been repaired a number of times over
21 history. The most vulnerable elements of mosques are the minarets, which
22 can be hit by lightning or damaged otherwise, and so they're the ones
23 that are most often replaced. I've seen a picture of the mosque from the
24 19th century where it had a rather short wooden minaret and then it got a
25 stone one again.
1 So all of these buildings which are in continuous use are living
2 structures, and the most you can say for many of them is that there is a
3 known date of foundation, but only a percentage of the building is
4 actually that old.
5 Q. Thank you. I'm asking that because in paragraph 27, a mistake
6 slipped that in the early 1400s --
7 A. Where?
8 Q. Paragraph 27. [In English] Close to half, 46 per cent of the 281
9 mosques surveyed for this report from the Ottoman era early 14 --
10 1400s --
11 A. Okay. What that designates is the era of Ottoman rule in Bosnia,
12 not the era of the earliest mosque. The Ottomans entered Bosnia in the
13 first decades of the 1400s.
14 Q. [Interpretation] Do you remember the year?
15 A. Well at different times and at different years, the 1420s and
16 1430s they got involved in a local civil war among Bosnian nobles. Then
17 they occupied part of the Drina valley. The last part of Bosnia to fall
18 to Ottoman rule was in the north-western corner around Bihac, and that
19 wasn't until almost a century after the first Turkish entrance.
20 Q. Thank you. So the time of the incursions is different from the
21 time when Bosnia was actually mastered; right?
22 A. Well, there were already established Turkish administrations in
23 Bosnia by the late 15th century. They didn't wait until Bihac fell to
24 establish Ottoman rule in Bosnia. All I'm saying is that Bosnia did not
25 fall at once. It fell in pieces.
1 Q. Thank you. Did you know -- or, rather, were you informed as to
2 what the attitude of the authorities were -- was towards the destruction
3 of buildings, any buildings, these included, that were in areas outside
4 combat areas? Did you know about orders regarding protection, also the
5 prosecution of perpetrators?
6 A. I'm aware of an order that was reprinted in a book called,
7 "Moja Odbrana," "My Defence," which was published while you were still a
8 fugitive. It dates from May of 1993, and it was produced by
9 Mr. Milosevic during his trial. So I am aware of that one.
10 I am not aware of prosecutions of persons responsible for
11 destroying mosques and Catholic churches. However, I wait to be
13 Q. Thank you. D106, can we take a brief look at that.
14 Let me ask you in the meantime. In what I have here, you said
15 that the Serb authorities built a church in Divic. Do you agree that
16 it's not the authorities that build churches, it is the believers that
17 build churches?
18 A. The believers build churches if they have permits from the
19 authorities. They don't build them at any spot that they don't own. And
20 furthermore, at least in this case, I believe the authorities were
21 brought to court by the Islamic Community and it was decided that the
22 authorities were indeed at fault. This is a decision of the human rights
23 chamber. However, it took years to enforce it.
24 Q. Is this the document that you meant when I ordered that patrols
25 be reinforced and that places of worship be secured? That was in 1993;
2 A. I believe so, yes. The 12 May 1993 document.
3 Q. Thank you. D1736. Can we now have a look at that, please?
4 Please take a look at this. The local authorities in Kljuc condemned
5 over the radio what had happened, and they're talking about
6 investigations and perpetrators, and this has to do with the destruction
7 of the mosque, and you see when that happened at 3.00 at night, 3.05, as
8 a matter of fact?
9 A. Is there a date on this?
10 Q. I think that this is 1992. I cannot see the date. The 1st of
11 July, 1992.
12 A. With reference to the 12th May document, I think it's worth
13 pointing out that at the time that document was issued in the aftermath
14 of the destruction of the major mosque in the centre of Banja Luka, the
15 Arnaudija and the Ferhadija, which were blown up on the -- around the 8th
16 of May. What I recall, again from the Milosevic trial, is the fact that
17 with respect to Banja Luka your order may have been issued, but there
18 were other mosques in Banja Luka still standing at the time, and in the
19 subsequent months they were destroyed one by one until in December there
20 were none left standing, and so I was wondering about the effectiveness
21 of such an order.
22 Q. Well, I've been wondering that myself, but do you remember that I
23 called that an act of terrorism, and I asked for it to be treated as
25 A. Well, I think the order speaks for itself without me having
1 having to comment on it.
2 Q. Thank you. Can we have a look at 65 ter 17851. Please take a
3 look at this. This is the 23rd of June, General Talic, the commander of
4 the 1st Krajina Corps is writing this. It's a military secret, official,
5 keep permanently. He is issuing an order to make sure that no places of
6 worship are desecrated. Also, fire may be opened on religious buildings
7 only if the forces are being engaged from such building. Also, he is
8 prohibiting the mistreatment of religious officials. Do you agree that
9 this is an appropriate measure, an appropriate order issued by the corps
11 A. It looks like the kind of order that would be issued by a
12 responsible commander, yes.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?
15 JUDGE KWON: Were you minded to tender the Djeneral Jankovic's
16 order which you showed --
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that has already been
18 admitted, D106.
19 JUDGE KWON: No. It was yours, though. I was referring to
20 1D1606, related to Kula Grad.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I thought that that had been
23 JUDGE KWON: I have to turn to the registrar.
24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is D1606.
1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Yes. We'll admit this 1st Krajina Corps
3 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D1979, Your Honours.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we now have a look
5 at 65 ter 17848. Sorry, can we just have the next page? Actually, this
6 one too. Can we see who all the addressees are? Oh, all right.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Please look at this. On the 3rd of August yet again there is
9 this order banning the destruction of religious buildings.
10 "We warn all unit commanders to prevent such irresponsible acts.
11 Failure to abide by my order represents a criminal act and shall be dealt
12 with accordingly. "
13 That is the 3rd of August. Can we have the next page now to see
14 who this was sent to. It was sent, basically, to each and every unit.
15 The first page it says "Military secret. Strictly confidential.
16 Keep permanently." So it's not propaganda. It's not an act of
17 propaganda. It is strictly confidential, it is a secret, and it is
18 rather strict.
19 So his first order dated the 23rd of June, obviously had not
20 yielded fruit everywhere. Or rather, Mr. Riedlmayer, do you agree that a
21 building can be destroyed by someone who is not in the military and that
22 General Talic is not in charge of persons who are not under his command?
23 A. Okay. Again, it's a two-part question. Certainly a building can
24 be destroyed by persons not in the military. And as to what the limit is
25 of Talic's command responsibility, that I would leave up to the Court.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Exhibit D1980.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Well, now I have to deal with the question of your partiality. I
6 do not do that happily, but I have to do it nevertheless. Is it correct
7 that on various occasions you expressed your regret, for instance,
8 because Serbia had not been found guilty of genocide in Bosnia?
9 A. I was a witness for the Bosnian side in the International Court
10 of Justice, and in fact as I recall the ruling of the Court was that
11 Serbia was in breach of the Genocide Convention for failing to prevent or
12 punish genocide in Bosnia.
13 As to your question of whether I had expressed regret, whether --
14 that the judgement didn't go further, I don't recall the specific
15 instances, but I would agree that yes, I wished that the judgement had
16 gone further.
17 Q. Thank you. 1D4903. Can we have a look at that? It seems that
18 it was at a very early stage that you took a very critical view of the
19 United Nations and Western statesmen as well because of their
20 understanding of the Bosnian crisis; right?
21 A. Yes. I don't see the date, but --
22 JUDGE KWON: We can zoom in.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. 1994. December 1994?
25 A. Oh, yes. And this is the time when the Secretary-General was
1 given an award at Harvard, and I made some critical statements where I'm
2 quoted as saying:
3 "The UN protection force cannot even act to protect itself, let
4 alone ensure the protection of safe areas, the delivery of aid, or the
5 position -- policing of weapons exclusion zones.
6 "I think it's a very bad precedent to honour somebody for failing
7 so conspicuously."
8 I would stand by that quote, and I believe later on the
9 Secretary-General himself had admitted that the United Nations had,
10 indeed, failed in its mission in Bosnia. I don't think there's anything
11 controversial about this at all.
12 Q. And do you remember that this very same Secretary-General said
13 that those protected areas had become armed strongholds of the Muslim
14 army and that they had been abused?
15 A. I'm not aware that he said that, but he might very well have.
16 Q. Thank you. 1D4905. Can we have a look at that.
17 A. Yes, I remember this. There was a petition circulated calling
18 for the arrest of fugitives. I did not write the petition, but I am
19 among the signatories. So are, I believe, thousands of other people.
20 And if you look at the English or the Bosnian, you will see it says:
21 "We, the undersigned, feel that it is the moral duty of our
22 governments to order their troops in Bosnia to immediately arrest
23 Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic who have been charged by the
24 International War Crimes Tribunal at The Hague with genocide and crimes
25 against humanity."
1 Again, I think that is simply a statement of fact. The Tribunal
2 did charge you and General Mladic, and it was the duty of Member States
3 of the United Nations to execute the warrants of the Tribunal. I don't
4 see anything prejudicial about that.
5 Q. And how many such petitions have you signed altogether for other
6 accused persons?
7 A. I don't remember. I -- I know I may have signed more than one.
8 Q. Whose arrest? Do you know how many people were indicted here?
9 Do you know how many people were fugitives? Whose arrest did you ask
11 A. Well, obviously yours, sir, and Mr. Mladic. You were the two
12 most prominent fugitives from the Tribunal for the longest of times.
13 Most of the others were not on the run as long and were not a public
14 issue in the same way that you were.
15 Q. Thank you. On page 9 of this document we can see your signature,
16 so could we have a look, please. Isn't that right?
17 A. Well, let me find it.
18 Q. The last one before the fine print.
19 A. Oh, yes, I see it. It's there.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted?
22 JUDGE KWON: Are you tendering the previous document as well
23 about picketing?
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, that would be fine.
25 JUDGE KWON: No, it's up to you.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Fine. Fine.
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll admit both the documents.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, document 1D4903 shall be given
4 Exhibit D1981, and document 1D4905 shall be given Exhibit D1982. Thank
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D4907. Can we have a look at
7 that, please?
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. You have a co-operation with the Kosovo government, don't you,
10 working on their independence, and you're working on cultural heritage in
11 that context; right?
12 A. I'm engaged in something called the Kosovo Cultural Heritage
13 Project which reconstructed some damaged cultural monuments in Kosovo. I
14 was also engaged in aid to the Kosovo national library. It's all part of
15 the public record. I had nothing to do with Kosovo's declaration of
16 independence. And this interview with Dr. Shukriu was her thanking me
17 for the engagement with reconstruction in Kosovo and with documenting the
18 destruction in Kosovo.
19 I would remind you that I also documented the destruction of Serb
20 cultural heritage in Kosovo and was at various points in contact with the
21 Serbian Orthodox church trying to work on Serb heritage in Kosovo.
22 Q. Thank you. This conversation took place within her preparations
23 for the fourth round of technical talks with Serbia, right, as is stated
25 A. Well, what is stated is that, yeah, the first paragraph, that she
1 was preparing for the fourth round. I did not participate in the
2 negotiations at all. I happened to be in Kosovo on a very short visit of
3 48 hours, and I had an interview that lasted maybe 15 minutes which
4 included snapping of pictures and the giving of thanks. It's -- if -- if
5 I had been part of the negotiations, it would be a different deal. Most
6 of my meetings in Kosovo had to do with the cultural heritage authorities
7 who are using the database that I also submitted in the Milosevic case as
8 one of the bases for their inventory of cultural heritage monuments in
10 Q. Thank you.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Exhibit D1983.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Before the break, can we briefly look at 1D4909. It's a short
16 This is translation from English, so the original should be
17 somewhere. I'm going read it to you then. It says here:
18 "Contact Washington. Let your voice be heard as well."
19 And there's a reference here to -- actually, I'm going to read it
21 "If we do not raise our voice in protest, that will mean that we
22 are helping Western leaders get away with their new 'policy' towards
23 Bosnia and ignore all --"
24 JUDGE KWON: If you do not have the English translation, please
25 let us know what this document is about first.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is an action over the internet
2 aimed at supporting the Muslim side in Bosnia. It also contains
3 Mr. Riedlmayer's letter to President Clinton, and that is what is
4 important for me. That's on page 3. Can we move on to page 3 and that
5 the gentleman, the witness, is going to recall that he did write this
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Riedlmayer -- I'm sorry. Ms. Sutherland.
8 My apologies.
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I was about to say that there is
10 this document in English, so if Your Honours were minded to rise early,
11 then the Defence could get the English of this document.
12 JUDGE KWON: Very well. I think it's time to a break now. We'll
13 break for half an hour and resume at 1.00.
14 --- Recess taken at 12.28 p.m.
15 --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.
16 JUDGE KWON: For this session, the Chamber is sitting pursuant to
17 Rule 15 bis in the absence of Judge Morrison and Judge Lattanzi, who are
18 away due to urgent personal reasons.
19 Before -- no. Let's continue. Mr. Karadzic.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Although I'd like Judge Lattanzi to
21 be here so that I could wish her a pleasant upcoming holiday, still I can
22 say that I will finish within a half hour.
23 Can we look at 1D4909. Do we have the translation?
24 JUDGE KWON: Has it been uploaded?
25 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I wasn't able to locate it, but
1 clearly Mr. Riedlmayer wrote it in English. So it must have been the
2 document from which the translation was done, but it's --
3 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
4 MS. SUTHERLAND: The Defence can't locate it.
5 JUDGE KWON: Do you recognise it, Mr. Riedlmayer?
6 THE WITNESS: I recognise it. I also recognise that there are
7 some issues with the translation.
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Can we have page 2 and then 3. Do you recall that this is a
11 letter of yours addressed to President Clinton?
12 A. Yes, I do recall it.
13 Q. Can we have page 3, and I'll read the relevant paragraph. I
15 "Lifting sanctions -- lifting the arms sanction would help
16 persuade the aggressor that time is no longer on their side. The
17 government of Bosnia, who has been internationally recognised, has agreed
18 to every peace plan presented to them regardless of how painful or unfair
19 it may have been. The extremists from Pale rejected every plan offered
20 by the international community."
21 Who was it that provided this sort of information to you,
22 Mr. Riedlmayer? If I were to tell you that I agreed to four out of the
23 five offered plans; whereas, the Muslims rejected the Cutileiro Plan
24 which could have helped prevent the war, do you -- would you agree in
25 that case that somebody must have grossly misinformed you?
1 JUDGE KWON: One question at a time. Let us stop here and then
2 let us ask Mr. Riedlmayer to answer the question.
3 THE WITNESS: Okay. This was a very long time ago, Your Honour,
4 and I'm working from memory, but at the time I was reading the news, and
5 I was referring to plans like the Vance-Owen Plan, which was rejected.
6 I would also, Your Honour, point out that over time all of us
7 have opinions, engage in discourse of various sorts, including political
8 discourse. I was writing this as a citizen of the United States to my
9 elected representatives. That does not in itself render me incapable of
10 writing a factual and objective and professional report.
11 The views I held at that time - I think in those circumstances
12 we're talking about the summer of 1995 - I think were appropriate to the
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Thank you. Did you know that the Muslim side had rejected the
16 already accepted Lisbon agreement, as well as the nearly accepted
17 Owen-Stoltenberg Plan?
18 A. Well, my understanding, as far as my memory serves me, is that
19 the Bosnian government at first hesitated then finally was pressured to
20 accept the Owen-Stoltenberg Plan, whereupon the Republika Srpska
21 parliament turned it down.
22 JUDGE KWON: How about the Lisbon agreement?
23 THE WITNESS: The Lisbon agreement came very early in these
24 developments, and there are all kinds of controversies about why the
25 Bosnian government refused to sign it. I no longer remember the exact
1 details, but it was more than two years before this letter.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Thank you. Let me correct you, the Serbian parliament accepted
4 the Owen-Stoltenberg Plan, whereas the Bosnian or Muslim parliament
5 rejected it. But let us look at this paragraph. So far UNPROFOR and the
6 Contact Group have indeed become insignificant in the effort of arriving
7 at the resolution of the conflict in Bosnia. The only thing that
8 Karadzic and his highwaymen are still afraid of is that their victims may
9 somehow find a way to get hold of defence assets or funds.
10 First of all, do you know that my government at the time was
11 among the highest educated governments in Europe at the time? Among them
12 were various professors and highly qualified professionals from different
13 walks of life.
14 A. This is the -- exactly the problem with the translation that I
15 was referring to. My original text said -- referred to outlaws. Okay.
16 "Outlaw" is a very specific term in English. It can be used in the broad
17 sense to mean everything from highwaymen to bandits, but it also has the
18 connotation of anyone who acts outside of the law. So you have things
19 like outlaw governments and outlaw organisations.
20 I would remind you, sir, that the Bosnian government was a member
21 state of the United Nations. It enjoyed international recognition,
22 whereas your government was -- had a Foreign Minister, but as far as I
23 know was not recognised formally even by Serbia. And secondly, that it
24 was in defiance of a long list of United Nations Resolutions. I would
25 posit that it was acting outside of the law.
1 All that being said, this was something specific to the period
2 and long before I was ever asked to act as an expert witness for this
4 Q. Thank you. Do you know that the Bosnian government can exist and
5 be as such only if it is composed of the legitimate representatives of
6 three peoples and not two and that we were that third part of the
8 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, we are not coming to that. Please
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. One more question. Do you know that throughout the war the
13 Muslim side in Bosnia did receive arms?
14 A. I wouldn't be surprised, but it's -- it's not something that is
15 within my expertise.
16 Q. Thank you. Since I've read the portions, shall we leave it at
17 that, or should I tender the document, Your Honours?
18 JUDGE KWON: We can admit it with the understanding that the
19 English translation will be uploaded in due course.
20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
21 JUDGE KWON: For safety, we'll mark it for identification.
22 MS. SUTHERLAND: And the English original, Your Honour, not the
23 English translation.
24 JUDGE KWON: Yes, it's not the English translation. It's the
1 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, you may recall since you sat on the
2 Karadzic says that this same document was produced in the Karadzic
3 case so the English one --
4 JUDGE KWON: You must be referring to Mr. Milosevic case.
5 THE WITNESS: I meant in the Milosevic case, sorry.
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes. No doubt the Prosecution will be able to
7 locate it.
8 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the exhibit number would be D1984,
11 marked for identification. Thank you.
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 1D4910.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. You established, didn't you -- well, this is the same situation
16 as with the previous document. This is a Serbian translation, and there
17 is the Serbian original.
18 You established an organisation called Bosnia Action Coalition,
19 did you not? Or you were perhaps its member.
20 A. I was a member.
21 Q. If we don't have the translation -- do you recall that you gave
22 an interview to this organisation then and that this is the interview we
23 are looking at right now?
24 A. I recall -- do you have the date on this?
25 Q. We'll look for it. There isn't one on the translation itself.
1 A. I have a vague recall of this because it was such a long time
2 ago. I was interviewed about Dayton and its consequences, I believe. Is
3 that the document?
4 Q. Yes. Can we have page 2. You spoke quite disparagingly of all
5 the US politicians and Western European politicians. Power played a key
6 role in discouraging the Clinton Administration from taking an active
8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note: We don't have a
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Do you recall that? You referred to the Powell doctrine?
12 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Why don't we zoom it a bit further.
13 Probably bottom half. For the benefit of the interpreters.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. The part where it starts "In
15 the course of the conflict..." Could we have the bottom two thirds
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. It reads here:
20 "In the US, General Colin Powell, as the Chief of Joint Staff,
21 played a key role in the Clinton Administration. 'To play a key role, we
22 are dealing with deserts and not mountains,' General Powell insisted."
23 You refer to this as the Powell doctrine. And further down you
25 "President Clinton, already affected by General Powell's
1 successful counter-attack in trying to allow the homosexuals to be in the
2 army and unsure of his moral authority when it comes to the army, refused
3 to --"
4 In this particular paragraph, you are very critical of
5 President Clinton, are you not?
6 A. I am.
7 Q. Can we have page 8. Do you know, Mr. Riedlmayer, that the Serbs
8 consider the Muslims to be the Serbs and that we are proud of the fact
9 the greatest Muslim figures such as Mesa Selimovic and before him Hasan
10 Rebac, Osman Djikic, et cetera, were Serbs? Do you know that we consider
11 them to be Serb?
12 A. I know that there are some Muslims who identify as Serbs. I also
13 know that Serb nationalists insist that Muslims are as -- Serbs who have
14 converted to Islam. Similarly, Croat nationalists insist that all
15 Muslims are really Croats. I think what matters for people is what they
16 think of themselves as being rather than what someone else chooses to
17 insist that they are.
18 Q. I agree, but we are proud of the fact that some of the most
19 creative individuals of the Muslim faith preserved their Serb roots, but
20 look at what you say here. How do you respond to the accusations that
21 you're trying to simplify this conflict and present it as a conflict
22 between the Serb bad guys and their helpless victims, and this is your
24 "This is a demeaning way of formulating the situation. First of
25 all, this is not a conflict between a nation -- a victim and a aggressor
1 nation. It is a conflict of ideologies. Serb nationalists, led by
2 Karadzic, believe in a racial and ethnically pure state. To achieve this
3 they expelled and killed all those who were deemed not to have been of
4 thoroughbreds, of pure Serb blood. They considered it a crime for
5 non-Serb individuals to marry with Serbs or have sexual relations with
6 them, and such progeny of mixed marriages - 20 to 30 per cent of the
7 people in Bosnia - were branded as half-castes who needed to be
8 eliminated," et cetera.
9 What prompted you to present such a position in this interview?
10 A. Okay. I would have to see the English to see whether it was
11 exactly in these words. I would say that it is not a stand I would take
12 today. It's simply the information I had then and the information I have
13 now are not the same.
14 Obviously this was an act of advocacy, and I own up to it at the
15 time that's how I felt, but I would repeat once again that, you know,
16 this has been a process of over two decades now, and in the process we
17 all learn something.
18 Q. Thank you. So would you agree that you did not see for yourself
19 that there existed a single piece of legislation which was
20 discriminatory, either in political or in racial terms, if I can put it
21 that way, although we and the Muslims are of the same race, and in our
22 view we are of the same ethnicity as well.
23 A. Well, I am not familiar with the entire legislative corpus of
24 your government. I know that the accusation made in this that mixed
25 marriages were prohibited was wrong. It was based on misreporting.
1 Since then I've learned that in fact, like all misreporting, this had
2 some facts behind it, namely that people in mixed marriages were
3 encouraged to emigrate, which is not the same, I admit, but this was the
4 state of my knowledge at the time. As I recall, this was still before
5 the end of the war, around October, while the negotiations were going on
6 in Dayton.
7 Q. Thank you. If I were to tell you that in my office there were
8 Muslims and individuals from Muslim families who enjoyed the highest of
9 my trust, and if I told you that one of my closest associates came from a
10 mixed marriage, would that shed any light or dissuade you from this
12 A. Well, I already told you that I -- I have retreated from this,
13 disavowed that misconception of many years ago.
14 Q. Thank you. If what I've read out is not sufficient for Their
15 Honours, it may be admitted or I leave it in the hands of the Chamber,
16 though I believe what the witness said is sufficient.
17 JUDGE KWON: We'll mark it for identification pending English
18 translation likewise.
19 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D1985, marked for identification, Your
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 1D4923.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. This is titled "Spiritual Genocide." It is taken off the web
24 site of the Serbian Orthodox Church.
25 Can we have 8, 7, 5 -- page 7. I've called this up not because
1 of the text but because of the images. Can we have the images enlarged,
3 Does this look any better than what you've shown us, or does it
4 look the same?
5 A. It looks like a church that has been blown up. I'm aware of the
6 book, and I'm aware of the pictures in the book.
7 Q. This is a basilica, as you can see. It was built in 1853.
8 Can we have the bottom image now.
9 A. Okay.
10 Q. Let me read this out for you:
11 "The church of the holy martyr of George, known as
12 Donja Sopotnica, among the people, was built by Stejpan Herceg in 1446.
13 Between 1529 and 1531, this --"
14 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, what it's relevance of these questions
15 and this material? Move on to your next topic.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, I wanted to show
17 what the situation was like on the other side. This is a very old
18 church, Stjepan Herceg --
19 JUDGE KWON: No. It is not one of his topics.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we have the next
21 page just for a moment. I will not be reading out any of the text, but
22 just let us look at what this was like.
23 JUDGE KWON: Move on to your next topic.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we can 1D4924, and I'll tender
1 JUDGE KWON: No. I will not allow that.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not this document, but another
3 document, 1D4924.
4 JUDGE KWON: According to your list, it says "Places of Orthodox
5 Worship Damaged in Former Yugoslavia," which has nothing to do with this
6 witness's evidence, Mr. Karadzic. Let's come to your last questions,
7 Mr. Karadzic.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Excellency, it is my case
9 that out -- that people fled these locations and that the chaos of the
10 civil war encourages these developments in and of itself. So I am
11 offering this not as tu quoque but as a way of giving you a better
12 understanding of the motives behind certain events in a civil war and
13 that certain events are not the result of the actions of authorities but
14 happen in and of themselves. If you, however, do not wish to admit the
15 document, I will withdraw it.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes. The Chamber is unanimous in that view. Please
18 move on to your last topic, Mr. Karadzic.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Actually, Excellencies, I could
20 actually finish now. I would like to thank Mr. Riedlmayer. I would like
21 to wish him a safe trip, and would I like to wish him happy holidays as
22 well as happy holidays to the whole Chamber as well as to all the
23 parties. I would like to wish everybody the best and my wishes for happy
25 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Sutherland.
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: I have a few matters, Your Honour.
3 Re-examination by Ms. Sutherland:
4 Q. Mr. Riedlmayer, this morning Mr. Karadzic said at transcript page
6 "Do you see that there is a link between the destruction of one
7 set of buildings with that of the other set of buildings? Don't you see
8 here that there is a retaliatory nature?"
9 And then you provided an answer which included the fact that you
11 "I would underline that in most places in Bosnia the destruction
12 was very one-sided, and I would keep this time sequence in mind."
13 Now, you recall the first slide that was shown this morning was
14 of the Mutnik mosque in Kozarac and that's slide 11, P04071. While
15 that's coming up, do you know what happened to the Serb Orthodox church
16 in Kozarac?
17 A. As far as I know, it survived the war entirely intact.
18 Q. So if we can just go to slide 11 to familiarise ourselves with
19 what we saw this morning. And then if I could have Exhibit P00550.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If this is permitted, then I should
21 be allowed to tender a document about the Serbian heritage.
22 MS. SUTHERLAND:
23 Q. Mr. Riedlmayer, is that the --
24 A. That is the old church in Kozarac, yes, the old Serbian church in
1 Q. And do you know how far the distance between the Mutnik
2 mosque and this mosque -- this church?
3 A. Not very far.
4 Q. The second matter I wish to deal with is at transcript page 42
5 today, Mr. Karadzic asked you whether you knew of any heroes that would
6 have boasted of having blown up structures. I want to play you a short
7 video-clip of a speech given by the Drina Corps commander,
8 General Milenko Zivanovic on the 12th of July, 1995.
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: And, Your Honour, this video is 65 ter number
10 40583, and the transcript of the excerpt that's going to be shown is from
11 65 ter number 03099 and it starts on page -- the bottom of page 16 and
12 goes on to page 17. And the video is subtitled, Your Honour. And the
13 time-code for the video is 00:38:34.1.
14 [Video-clip played]
15 MS. SUTHERLAND: And we stopped at -- the time code is
17 Q. Mr. Riedlmayer, are you aware of whether any mosques were
18 destroyed in Srebrenica after the town was taken by Bosnian Serb forces
19 in July 1995?
20 A. Yes, I covered Srebrenica for a previous trial, and I went to
21 Srebrenica to do a survey. Srebrenica had a total of five mosques, all
22 of which were destroyed after the town. You can see the intact minaret
23 in the Petrovic video as the Serb troops come into the town, and then in
24 the subsequent days you see pictures of several of them damaged or blown
25 up, and by the time I got there all of them had been reduced to ruins.
1 The one in the market square across from the Serbian church had been
2 completely levelled and it had junked cars on top. The oldest mosque,
3 the Bijela Dzamija, only had fragments of walls remaining. The same was
4 true of the mosque at the northern entrance of Srebrenica and the
5 headquarters of the Srebrenica Islamic Community at the Petric Mahala
6 mosque, that mosque was completely destroyed. Only rubble remained.
7 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, Mr. Riedlmayer. All the destruction
8 of cultural monument referred to in the indictment are limited to 1992;
9 correct? In Schedule D.
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I think there may be some dates in
11 1993 also.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have an objection to this. I
13 asked --
14 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, it is 1992, but it was in reference
15 to a question that Mr. Karadzic put.
16 JUDGE KWON: So this video relates to 1995.
17 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour, correct.
18 JUDGE KWON: I would like you to move on to another topic.
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes. I don't seek to admit the document -- the
21 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
22 MS. SUTHERLAND:
23 Q. Mr. Riedlmayer, the third issue I want to take you to is --
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Sorry, if I can just correct the transcript. At
25 page 76, line 15, the 65 ter number which I said was 40582 for the video.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just state for the transcript
2 that this was not prompted by my question. I asked about terrorists and
3 General Zivanovic is talking about combat, about assault, and I was
4 asking whether they were clandestinely or openly demolishing --
5 JUDGE KWON: No, it's not helpful. We'll move on.
6 MS. SUTHERLAND:
7 Q. Mr. Riedlmayer at transcript page 55 today, Mr. Karadzic asked
8 you if you were informed as to what the attitude of these authorities
9 were towards the destruction of buildings, any buildings that were in
10 areas outside combat areas. Do you recall anything said by Serb
11 authorities in Prijedor about the destruction of buildings, religious
12 buildings in particular?
13 A. Yes. I recall an interview by Simo Drljaca, who was the police
14 chief of Prijedor and, I believe, had some authority over other parts of
15 the Bosanska Krajina region, and he said with their mosques it's not
16 enough to break the minarets. You've got to shake the foundation. That
17 way they, meaning the Muslims, will leave and never come back. They
18 cannot rebuild.
19 Q. And finally, at transcript page 47, Mr. Karadzic put to you that
20 the mosque in Pale was not destroyed either, and you just said that you
21 didn't have access to your survey database. If Mr. Usher could -- or
22 Ms. Usher, sorry, could assist. This is a hard copy printout of your
23 survey database, and I've marked with a yellow Post-it Note the Pale
24 municipality where it begins. If you could very quickly --
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Once again I must --
1 [overlapping speakers].
2 Q. -- review your survey database records for Pale and inform --
3 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
4 Yes, Mr. Karadzic. What is your objection?
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I was not talking about the
6 villages in the municipality of Pale. I was talking about the actual
7 town of Pale. I know that all sorts of things happened in the villages,
8 but I was talking about Pale the town itself where the Catholic church
9 and the mosque remained intact.
10 MS. SUTHERLAND:
11 Q. Mr. Riedlmayer, can you just confirm --
12 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
13 MS. SUTHERLAND:
14 Q. -- after reviewing your records, please.
15 THE WITNESS: There's an entry --
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 THE WITNESS: -- for the Catholic church.
18 JUDGE KWON: Could you hold on.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE KWON: Since you didn't limit your question to the town
21 specifically, we'll allow Ms. Sutherland to pursue that line of question.
22 Please continue, Ms. Sutherland.
23 THE WITNESS: Okay. The entries for Pale are all for villages
24 except for the Catholic church which is in the town. I didn't have
25 specific information on the mosque in Pale. As you may recall from my
1 database and from my report, I was careful to include only sites for
2 which I had photographs and/or multiple corroborating information, but I
3 have heard that the mosque in Pale was vandalised but not destroyed.
4 MS. SUTHERLAND:
5 Q. And the records in your survey database in relation to Pale?
6 A. So I have several villages, Praca where the mosque was completely
7 destroyed at site level. It was an old mosque dating from the 16th
8 century. And mosques in villages such as Podvitez and Bogovici. And in
9 the town of Pale, of course, the Catholic church, where the votive
10 statues of saints on the main and side alters were smashed, but there was
11 no structural damage to the church.
12 So that's the limit of Pale municipality -- oh, no, here's also
13 in Praca, next to the mosque that was destroyed, there was a mausoleum
14 that was only lightly damaged. So that's the limit of the coverage for
15 Pale of my survey. I must say that this request to cover Pale came in
16 April of 2009 and I was not able to make site visits to these places, so
17 all of this is based on photographic documentation.
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Mr. Riedlmayer. I have no further
20 JUDGE KWON: Well, thank you. That concludes your evidence,
21 Mr. Riedlmayer. On behalf the Chamber and the Tribunal as a whole, I'd
22 like to thank you for your coming again to the Tribunal to give it.
23 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much, Your Honour, and thank you for
24 making sure that I left in time.
25 JUDGE KWON: And I would like to thank you in particular for your
1 indulgence. Please have a safe journey back home, and you may be excused
3 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
4 [The witness withdrew]
5 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, just one matter. The document
6 D01736, the Kljuc radio document that Mr. Karadzic showed and you asked
7 is there a date on the document -- Mr. Riedlmayer asked if there was a
8 date on the document, and Mr. Karadzic said the 1st of July, 1992. In
9 fact, the document is undated.
10 JUDGE KWON: Yes, thank you.
11 Mr. -- yes.
12 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry, I should have mentioned yesterday
13 afternoon that the redacted report and redacted formatted records were
14 uploaded and in e-court available.
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes, I have noted it. Thank you.
16 Before we adjourn, Mr. Tieger, I was informed that the Chamber
17 has received a courtesy copy about the motion for an extension of time
18 for disclosure. Probably it will be of benefit to have the response
19 from -- from the Defence. If you could orally explain it -- raise it now
20 so that Mr. Karadzic could understand.
21 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Mr. President. As the motion indicates, the
22 Prosecution completed the searches and is prepared to -- as disclosed is
23 prepared to disclose the relevant materials that resulted from the
24 searches of the accessible databases and archives. During the course of
25 that effort -- so in that sense as indicated in the motion we responded
1 to and complied with the Trial Chamber's directive.
2 During the course of doing so, however, we observed that there
3 were references to certain documents that had not turned up in the search
4 and considered the possibility that such documents may exist in locations
5 that were not known to or accessible to the Prosecution, and therefore
6 have proposed an additional search which would ensure the fullest
7 possible compliance with the Trial Chamber's order and minimise the risk
8 of any inadvertent oversight of materials that may exist. To do so,
9 however, requires a labour intensive and time-consuming manual search,
10 and then the scanning of documents for electronic searching. In light of
11 those factors, we estimate that that additional process would not be
12 completed until January 31st of next year and therefore seek an extension
13 to complete that aspect of the proposed process.
14 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, do you follow?
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I do, and I would prefer that
16 Mr. Robinson deal with that, but we accepted that because there is no
17 other way. There's no other solution. And then after that, hopefully we
18 will get adequate time in order to be able to review that material.
19 JUDGE KWON: Very well. The finding that this is -- request is
20 reasonable, it is so granted, Mr. Tieger.
21 Unless there are any other matters to be raised, the hearing is
22 now adjourned, and we will resume -- one more. We will resume on the
23 10th January, Mr. Tieger, and on which date we will start with the
24 videolink at 8.00?
25 MR. TIEGER: We have been working toward that particular date,
1 Mr. President, and of course we'll advise the Chamber if there are any
2 complications arising. We hope not and anticipate it would be on the
4 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I'm glad to hear that,
6 because the 9th of January is Republika Srpska Republic Day, so I'm glad
7 that we will not be in session on that day.
8 JUDGE KWON: I wish everybody a very Happy New Year. We will see
9 you next year.
10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.50 p.m.,
11 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 10th day
12 of January, 2012, at 8.00 a.m.