Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 22623

 1                           Tuesday, 10 January 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.47 a.m.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.  Now we are back to work

 6     with new facilities.  I hope it's working okay.  Today our start has been

 7     delayed due to late arrival of the accused.

 8             Mr. Karadzic, can I hear from you the reason for that.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Excellencies.

10     Good morning to everyone and Happy New Year.

11             The fact is there was some confusion due to the activities in the

12     Detention Unit.  I was informed that I should get down at 8.30.  However,

13     in the meantime, at 8.00, the others went for a walk while we were locked

14     in, and I was completely helpless because they don't have enough guards

15     to leave one on the floor.  I was unable to leave on time to get prepared

16     to pick up my things.  That was the reason.  There's no other reason.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you for that clarification, Mr. Karadzic.

18             Now the transcript is working.  Very well.

19             There are a few matters I'd like to deal with before we begin

20     today in private session.  Could the Chamber move into private session.

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Page 22624











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Page 22630

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15                           [Open session]

16             JUDGE KWON:  If you could remain seated.  The Chamber will take a

17     break for ten minutes in order to change the courtroom setting.

18                           --- Break taken at 10.09 a.m.

19                           --- On resuming at 10.22 a.m.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Would the witness take the solemn declaration,

21     please.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

23     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, sir.  Please make yourself comfortable.

25             Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

Page 22631

 1             MR. MITCHELL:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 2                           WITNESS:  KDZ045

 3                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 4                           Examination by Mr. Mitchell:

 5        Q.   Good morning, Witness.

 6        A.   Good morning.

 7             MR. MITCHELL:  Can I please have 65 ter 90305 in e-court and not

 8     to be broadcast.

 9        Q.   Witness, as you know, you're testifying here today with

10     protective measures, including a pseudonym.  So without saying your name

11     out loud, can you confirm that that's your name you can see on the screen

12     in front of you?

13        A.   Yes, it's mine.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             MR. MITCHELL:  Can I tender that, please, Mr. President.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that is admitted.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P4089, under seal, Your Honours.

18             MR. MITCHELL:

19        Q.   Witness, do you recall testifying in the case of the

20     Prosecutor versus Radislav Krstic on the 14th of April, 2000?

21        A.   Yes, I remember.

22        Q.   Have you had an opportunity to review that testimony?

23        A.   I did.

24        Q.   I understand there are three corrections to make to that

25     testimony, and I'd like to go through them with you now.

Page 22632

 1             First, at transcript page 2942 to 2943 you testified that you

 2     were not a member of the Bosnian army in July 1995.  Now, it's correct

 3     that you were demobilised from the Territorial Defence in June 1992 after

 4     being injured, but then you were remobilised on the 5th of July, 1995,

 5     after the enclave was attacked.  Is that correct?

 6        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 7        Q.   Second, at transcript page 2945, line 8, the transcript recorded

 8     you as saying that it was about 7.200 kilometres to the free territory to

 9     Tuzla.  Now, you've clarified that it's actually around 100 kilometres

10     from Srebrenica to Tuzla; is that correct?

11        A.   Yes, that's correct, around 100 kilometres.

12        Q.   And the third correction, at transcript page 2950, line 24, you

13     testified that there were around 2.500 to 3.000 Muslim men held on the

14     sports field at Nova Kasaba on 13 July 1995.  Now, after looking at your

15     very first statement of the 19th of July, 1995, you stated that a more

16     accurate estimate is around 2- to 2.500 men; is that right?

17        A.   Yes, correct.  I believe it's more precise to put it at 2- to

18     2.500.

19        Q.   With those three corrections, can you confirm that your testimony

20     in the Krstic case was accurate?

21        A.   Yes, everything I said is accurate.

22        Q.   And if you were asked the same questions today, would your

23     answers be the same?

24        A.   Yes, quite the same.

25             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, I'd like to tender the witness's

Page 22633

 1     Krstic testimony, 65 ter number 22710.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that's admitted.

 3             MR. MITCHELL:  And there are --

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P4090, Your Honours.

 5             MR. MITCHELL:  There are six associated exhibits I would like to

 6     tender.  I'll start off with there's one that we no longer seek to

 7     tender.  That's number 2902.  The witness didn't confirm anything about

 8     that in his prior testimony so we don't seek to tender that.  The

 9     remaining --

10             JUDGE KWON:  Six -- are there any objections, Mr. Robinson?

11             MR. ROBINSON:  No, Mr. President.

12             JUDGE KWON:  They will all be admitted and given number in due

13     course, Mr. Mitchell.

14             MR. MITCHELL:  Thank you, Mr. President.

15             I'd now like to read a summary of the witness's prior testimony.

16             On 11 July 1995, after the fall of Srebrenica, the Muslim women

17     and children went to the UNPROFOR base in Potocari.  The witness

18     testified that the men did not dare to go to Potocari because they didn't

19     trust the Serbs.  Instead, around 13- to 15.000 men and boys and some

20     2- to 300 women went to the village of Susnjari where they formed a large

21     column and started moving through the woods towards Muslim-held

22     territory.  Around a third of the column was armed but the witness

23     himself did not have a weapon.

24             On the morning of 13 July, the column encountered heavy shelling

25     and the witness heard Serb forces calling for their surrender over a loud

Page 22634

 1     speaker, assuring the Muslim men that they would be exchanged in

 2     accordance with the Geneva Conventions.  The witness and around 30 men

 3     who he was with at that time decided to surrender.

 4             After the men surrendered they were taken briefly to

 5     Konjevic Polje and then to a sports field at Nova Kasaba that was full of

 6     Muslim men, some 2- to 2.500 according to the witness's revised estimate

 7     that he confirmed this morning.  At least 100 Bosnian Serb soldiers were

 8     also at the sports field.

 9             About 15 to 20 minutes after the witness arrived at Nova Kasaba,

10     General Ratko Mladic came and addressed the prisoners, after which they

11     were ordered back onto trucks waiting on the road.  The witness's truck

12     which had 119 prisoners onboard drove towards Bratunac and then stopped

13     near a supermarket in the village of Kravica.  The witness saw at least

14     two other trucks behind his.  Throughout that night the witness heard

15     screams, moaning, cries for help, and bursts of gun-fire.  Some of the

16     prisoners in the truck were struck with rifle-butts, while five were

17     taken out of the truck and never returned.  The prisoners received no

18     food and only one bucket of water during this time and the conditions

19     were so hot and stuffy that some prisoners drank their own urine.

20             Around 2 or 3 p.m. on 14 July, the prisoners were driven to a

21     school at Petkovci.  There they were ordered to put their hands behind

22     their heads and run into the school between two lines of Serb soldiers.

23     As they ran into school, the prisoners were kicked, slapped, hit with

24     rifle-butts, and forced to chant phrases such as "Long live the

25     Serb Republic" and "Srebrenica is Serb."

Page 22635

 1             Once inside the school, the witness was taken to a classroom on

 2     the second floor where he saw two badly beaten men covered in blood.  The

 3     witness estimated that around 200 prisoners were held in that classroom

 4     once it was full.  Periodically, prisoners were taken outside and the

 5     witness could hear gun-fire.  After some time, the witness was taken out

 6     into the hallway where he saw a pile of discarded clothing and

 7     identification documents.  He was ordered to take off his shoes and strip

 8     to the waist but allowed to keep his vest on.  His hands were then bound

 9     behind his back with string or rope and he was put into another

10     classroom.

11             Shortly afterwards, the witness and another group of prisoners

12     were told to board a truck.  As he ran down the stairs from the

13     second floor of the school he saw three to four dead bodies lying at the

14     foot of the stairs.  He then climbed onto a truck that was parked with

15     its back right up to the school.  It was now dark outside.  Once the

16     truck was full of Muslim men it drove for 10 to 15 minutes and then

17     stopped.  The witness could hear heavy gun-fire and yelling, and he saw a

18     large lit-up field that was covered with the bodies of dead prisoners who

19     were tied up and lying face down.

20             The witness was ordered off the truck with a group of other

21     prisoners and told to form a row.  One soldier ordered the prisoners to

22     lie down and as they started to comply, the soldiers fired at the

23     witness's backs and heads from close-range.  The witness fell forward

24     over the bodies of prisoners who had already been executed and tried to

25     tuck his head in between the legs of the dead bodies.  As he lay there,

Page 22636

 1     the witness heard bursts of fire as soldiers fired into the heads of

 2     wounded prisoners, and at one point a soldier walked over and actually

 3     kicked the witness with his boot and then said, "He's dead."

 4             After some time, another survivor who was wounded crawled over to

 5     the witness and the witness managed to free this other survivor's hands

 6     which was also tied together.  Together they made their escape, climbing

 7     over a mass of dead bodies and taking cover in a large concrete canal.

 8     There, the other survivor used two rocks to cut through the rope that was

 9     still binding the witness's hands behind his back.  The two survivors hid

10     in the concrete canal until the evening of 15 July when they started

11     moving towards Tuzla.  They reached the free territory on 18 July 1995.

12        Q.   Now, Witness, what I would like to do now is show you four

13     photographs and ask you to describe what is in those photographs to the

14     Court.

15             MR. MITCHELL:  Can I please have 65 ter 14096 in e-court.

16        Q.   Witness, do you recognise what's shown in this photo?

17        A.   Yes, I do.

18        Q.   Can you describe what it is that we're looking at?

19        A.   We are looking at the playground in front of that school and we

20     see the school in Petkovci.

21        Q.   If I can ask the usher to assist you, I would like to ask you to

22     mark a few things on this photograph.  First can you mark the school and

23     put an S on it.

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Now, can you describe to the Court where the trucks were parked

Page 22637

 1     and where the two lines of Serb soldiers were that you ran through.

 2        A.   Yes, I can explain.  So it was right here that the trucks were at

 3     first.  Yes.  And the soldiers were here.  We had to get off these

 4     trucks, walking by the soldiers and entering the school here.

 5        Q.   Thank you, Witness.  If you can just put a number 1 next to where

 6     the trucks were parked.

 7        A.   Yes, I can.

 8        Q.   And a number 2 next to where the two lines of soldiers that

 9     you've drawn.

10        A.   These two here.

11        Q.   And a number 3 next to the mark you made, describing where you

12     entered the school.

13        A.   Over here.

14        Q.   Thank you.  If you can write your witness number, number 045,

15     just in the bottom right-hand corner.

16        A.   [Marks]

17        Q.   And also today's date, the 9th of January --

18             JUDGE KWON:  Is it not the 10th --

19             MR. MITCHELL:

20        Q.   Sorry, 10th of January.

21        A.   Yes.  The year as well?

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please, 2012.

23             THE WITNESS: [Marks]

24             MR. MITCHELL:  Could I tender that, Mr. President?

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, this will be admitted as Exhibit P4091.

Page 22638

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P4097, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 3             MR. MITCHELL:  Can I please have Exhibit P00214 in e-court.

 4        Q.   Witness, do you recognise what's depicted in this photo?

 5        A.   [No interpretation]

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness please

 7     repeat his answer.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Sir, could you kindly repeat your answer.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I certainly can recognise

10     this.  These are the classrooms that we were brought into and the hallway

11     in front.

12             MR. MITCHELL:

13        Q.   If I can ask the usher to assist you again, I would like to get

14     you to mark a few things on this photograph.  Can you mark the classrooms

15     that you just mentioned that you can see on this photograph.

16        A.   Yes, you can just see the doors of these classrooms.  So it was

17     this classroom here, the first one, the one here then, and then the one

18     here.  You can actually just see the corner of that door.

19        Q.   Witness, can you mark those three classrooms with a 1, a 2, and

20     a 3.

21        A.   Yes, I can.

22        Q.   Now, can you see in this photo the place where you saw the pile

23     of discarded clothes and identifications; and if so, can you mark that

24     with a P?

25        A.   Yes, that place can be seen very well.  It was right here by the

Page 22639

 1     metal railing.  I'm going to mark it with a P.

 2        Q.   And just one question about the identifications.  At any time

 3     after you surrendered, when you were at Konjevic Polje, at Nova Kasaba,

 4     at Kravica, at the Petkovci school, did the soldiers ask you for your

 5     personal details, such as your name, your age, your place of birth?

 6        A.   No, never.  No one ever asked us anything, and this was the

 7     fourth time that we were being searched and that our documents were being

 8     taken away.  No one ever asked us anything or registered us anywhere.

 9        Q.   One more thing I'd like you to mark on this photo.  Where were

10     you standing when the Serb soldiers tied your hands behind your back?

11        A.   Here, right by the letter P that I placed here, so it's roughly

12     here.  There was a huge pile of documents there, IDs, health IDs as well,

13     and also some footwear and clothing.

14        Q.   Witness, if you can put your witness number again, 045, in the

15     bottom right-hand corner and today's date.

16        A.   [Marks]

17             MR. MITCHELL:  I'd like to tender that, Mr. President.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that will be admitted.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P4098, Your Honours.

20             MR. MITCHELL:  If I can have now Exhibit P00216 in e-court and

21     the second page, the clean, unmarked version of this photograph.

22        Q.   Witness, do you recognise what's shown in this photo?

23        A.   Yes, I can recognise this most certainly.  This is the dam in

24     Petkovci where we were executed by the dam -- the plateau, that is.

25        Q.   I'd again like you to mark a few things on this photograph.

Page 22640

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   First can you mark the area where the bodies were?

 3        A.   This entire plateau was full of dead people.  Do I have to mark

 4     all of this?

 5        Q.   If you can just draw a big square around the outside of the area,

 6     that might be easier.

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Now, do you recall where it was that you were shot at; and if you

 9     do remember, can you mark that spot, or roughly that spot, with an A.

10        A.   Well, it was roughly around here.  Let's mark it with an A.

11        Q.   And one last thing, can you see on this photo the concrete canal

12     that you hid in?  And if you can't, can you put an arrow pointing in the

13     direction of where it is.

14        A.   The canal cannot be seen directly from this plateau, but I can

15     draw an arrow indicating the direction in which we got out.  It was here.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Can you put your witness number, 045, in the bottom

17     right-hand corner and the date.

18        A.   [Marks]

19             MR. MITCHELL:  Can I tender that, Mr. President.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Exhibit P4099.

21             MR. MITCHELL:

22        Q.   Now, the last photograph I'd like to show you, Witness, is

23     65 ter number 2913.

24             Do you recognise what we can see in this photo?

25        A.   Yes, I do.  This is the canal that we mentioned a moment ago,

Page 22641

 1     where we sought shelter later on.

 2        Q.   I don't need you to mark anything on this photo, but if you can

 3     describe what the two features at the top of the photo are that are

 4     circled in red.  The first -- the left-hand circle, the building that's

 5     there, can you describe what that is.

 6        A.   Well, I think it was some sort of little house, perhaps some kind

 7     of administration building because we saw a soldier with a rifle in front

 8     of that building and we saw a machine there too.  So it was a building

 9     that was there before the war.  It probably had to do with the dam,

10     perhaps securing the dam.  We saw a soldier there with a rifle.  We got

11     out across this plateau and went down into this canal.  He could not see

12     us from up there.

13        Q.   Witness, when you say "we," without referring to anyone's name,

14     can you tell us who else you're referring to.

15        A.   Well, I am directly referring to the man who got out together

16     with me, who managed to save himself as well.

17        Q.   Can you also describe what is circled -- the right-hand circle at

18     the top of the screen in the very top right-hand corner?

19        A.   These are big lamps that were on throughout the night on

20     lampposts.

21        Q.   Thank you, Witness.  I have no further questions at this stage.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Are you tendering this photo?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, that was tendered as an associated

25     exhibit.

Page 22642

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 2             Sir, as indicated, your testimony in previous case was admitted

 3     in lieu of your examination-in-chief in this case, and now you will be

 4     further asked by Mr. Karadzic in his cross-examination.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.

 8                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Witness.

10        A.   Good day.

11        Q.   I would like us to clarify certain things that are unclear.  I'll

12     try to put questions that are as simple as possible and that will enable

13     you to answer with a simple yes or no.  First of all, I'd like to ask you

14     the following.  The area you are from is a group of villages and hamlets;

15     right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   What is the name of this area and what is the name of your

18     hamlet?  If that is going to threaten your identity, we can move into

19     private session.

20        A.   I cannot say that because this would threaten my identity.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we move into private session.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Before -- we'll go into private session briefly.

23     But in the meantime, please put a pause between your answer and the

24     accused's question so that the interpreters can follow.  Thank you.

25                           [Private session]

Page 22643











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Page 22644

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12                           [Open session]

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we are now in open session, Mr. Karadzic.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19        Q.   Thank you.  After that, this Territorial Defence, or rather, this

20     group, this formation, grew into the 281st Brigade; right?

21        A.   I don't know.  I was no longer a member at that time.  That is

22     probably what the situation was, but I do not remember.

23        Q.   Your participation in the war, has it been recognised, certified?

24        A.   I don't know.

25        Q.   Did you receive certificates for privatisation and other things

Page 22645

 1     on the basis of your participation in the war?

 2        A.   I don't know what happened later.  Perhaps they gave it to us

 3     later after the fall.  I cannot answer that question.

 4        Q.   Are you trying to say that you don't know whether you received

 5     certificates that were being given to combatants, members of the BH army,

 6     and that you don't even know their number?

 7        A.   That's correct, I don't know their number.

 8        Q.   How many certificates did you receive?  Which period of time was

 9     recognised as the period of time that you participated in the war?

10        A.   I don't really understand your question.

11        Q.   Thank you.  For how many months did you get a certificate, and

12     which amount did you get for what specific participation in the war?

13        A.   I don't know how they handed this out.  Perhaps it was recognised

14     later, but at that point in time I was not a member.  I don't know how

15     much I received.  I don't remember.

16        Q.   And what do you say to this, if I say that you received this for

17     all the months of the war?

18        A.   I tell you that I rejoined on the 5th of June, 1995.

19        Q.   Thank you.  And in the meantime, did you have anything to do with

20     the army and this brigade?  Were you in some kind of relationship with

21     them?

22        A.   I personally was not, no.

23        Q.   [No interpretation]

24        A.   [No interpretation]

25        Q.   Who was the commander?

Page 22646

 1        A.   I don't know.

 2        Q.   Who did you receive orders from?

 3        A.   I cannot confirm that directly because I wasn't really involved

 4     in that kind of thing.  The Territorial Defence was protecting our

 5     villages, our families, our children.  That's what we were doing.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, as you can note in the transcript,

 7     your previous question and witness's answers were not reflected in the

 8     transcript.  If necessary, in your opinion, please repeat your question.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We were having technical

10     problems with the microphone.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   My question is:  After demobilisation was the witness recorded as

13     a member of that unit and did he have any kind of relationship as an

14     administrative worker or a record-taker there.  That was the question.

15        A.   No, I worked in the civilian structures and I was not the

16     record-taker in the unit.

17        Q.   Thank you.  I don't know what was in the transcript, but can you

18     please confirm that you did not receive a certificate recognising your

19     entire participation in the war or did you receive, in fact, such a

20     certificate?

21        A.   I did receive a certificate of some sort, but I don't remember

22     the period that it covered or how it was in the beginning.

23        Q.   Thank you.  You say that until the 15th of June you were a member

24     of the Territorial Defence; is that correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 22647

 1        Q.   Is it possible that during that time the commander of that unit

 2     was Becirovic?

 3        A.   I don't recall that and I told you I don't personally know that

 4     man.

 5        Q.   But you lived there throughout that time, and after that, was the

 6     commander Zulfo Tursunovic?

 7        A.   I think so, yes, but as I said I had nothing to do with him or

 8     them.

 9        Q.   All right, then.  Well let's see this, then.  Until the

10     15th of June did you take part in actions conducted by this unit?

11        A.   I never took part in any action.  There were no actions carried

12     out at the time.  All we did was to provide guards around our village.

13     We were just protecting the villages.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

15             MR. MITCHELL:  Just to be clear for the record, can Mr. Karadzic

16     refer to the year as well when he's reading out dates.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Mitchell.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I understood the witness

19     correctly and Mr. Mitchell in the examination-in-chief, the witness was a

20     member of this unit from mid-April until mid-June 1992.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Am I correct?

23        A.   Yes, that's correct.

24        Q.   All right.  Very well.  And where were you wounded?

25        A.   I was wounded by a shell in my left elbow when it fell near our

Page 22648

 1     village, and I can prove that.  I was wounded by a shrapnel from a shell.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  And were there any Serbs in your area, in your

 3     village?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   So you say you didn't participate, and while you were there you

 6     say that the unit was not carrying out any actions?

 7        A.   Well, I didn't participate in any personally nor do I know of any

 8     actions.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we call up 1D4961 in e-court,

10     please.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Your acquaintances, Serbs, did they know that you were a member

13     of this unit?

14        A.   I didn't understand you.  What did -- what do you mean,

15     acquaintances?

16        Q.   Did you have any Serb acquaintances?

17        A.   Yes, I did, many.  When I worked together with them, many of

18     them.  And they were good friends, if I may say so, that I worked with

19     together before the war.

20        Q.   Did they know that you were a member of this unit and did they

21     know your post in the unit?

22        A.   I don't know if they knew or not.  I never had any contact with

23     anyone.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please look at this.  These are notes to the

25     history of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina written by people from the

Page 22649

 1     28th Division unit by unit.  And this is your unit here, the

 2     Territorial Defence which was used to form the 281st Light Brigade.  And

 3     if you look you can see the actions carried out by that brigade.  I'm

 4     just going to note the offensives.

 5             On the 1st of May, a sabotage in the sector of Zutica.  Then on

 6     the 15th of May, participation in the operation of the territory between

 7     Osredak, Orahovica, Viogor, Bojna, Zeleni Jadar, with the unit in

 8     Potocari and Srebrenica.  On the 16th of May, a Chetnik attack was

 9     repelled.  Then on the 22nd, a successful sabotage in the sector of

10     Zutica inflicting losses in forces and material and equipment to the

11     enemy.  And then there was an infantry attack in the sector of Bijelo

12     Polje on the 24th of May.  On the 27th, a sabotage on the enemy

13     electricity lines.  On the 29th of May, participations in fighting in

14     Jasikovaca and Manovici.  On the 3rd of June, successful sabotage in the

15     sector of Visnjica.  On the 7th of June, successful sabotage in the

16     section of Rupovo Brdo.  On the 10th of June, temporarily captured --

17             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic.

18             Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

19             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, I'm wondering if we can get some

20     explanation of exactly what this document is.  The second and third page

21     have an ERN, but the first page doesn't.  Perhaps there is --

22     Mr. Karadzic would like to give some foundation for its use before the

23     witness answers any questions.

24             JUDGE KWON:  But first of all, Mr. Witness, did you confirm that

25     you belonged to 281st East Bosnian Light Brigade?  Was this your unit?

Page 22650

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the beginning it was the

 2     Territorial Defence.  It wasn't the 281st.  Later it was named the

 3     281st Light Brigade.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  I was a bit surprised and confused by the fact that

 5     the first document you put to the witness is the one that is -- hasn't

 6     been translated, Mr. Karadzic, after such a long winter break.

 7             Mr. Mitchell.

 8             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, Mr. Reid's checked and the first

 9     page is actually the preceding page in that ERN range but it's been --

10     the ERN's been cropped from it.  So it does come from our collection.

11             JUDGE KWON:  But you don't have the translation of this?

12             MR. MITCHELL:  No.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies --

14             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- I didn't know that this would be

16     disputed.

17             JUDGE BAIRD:  Yes, Mr. Witness.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19             JUDGE BAIRD:  Yes.  Can you -- were you or were you not a member

20     of the 281st Light Brigade?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, when it was formed later.  I

22     don't know which year.  From 1995 it was the 281st, that's when I was

23     admitted.  But from mid-April, in the beginning of the war in 1992, from

24     the 15th of June 1992, it was not actually the 281st Brigade.  It was

25     called the Territorial Defence of the municipality of Srebrenica.

Page 22651

 1             JUDGE BAIRD:  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Witness, do we agree that in the second paragraph it states

 5     formed from the previous unit of the Suceska TO -- rather, from the

 6     Suceska Brigade and the Lipovac Company and the Kutuzero Company from the

 7     Independent Zeleni Jadar Battalion.  So the TO, a member of which you

 8     were, formed the 281st Brigade later?

 9        A.   [No interpretation]

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat his answer.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   We're not going to move further than the 15th of June --

13             JUDGE KWON:  The interpreters couldn't hear your previous answer.

14     Was it yes, Mr. Witness?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I was a member of the

16     Territorial Defence, as I said, until the 15th of June, 1992.

17                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   On the 7th of June, successful sabotage in the sector of

22     Rupovo Brdo.  On the 10th of June, Rupovo Brdo was temporarily captured.

23     On the 14th of June, successful sabotage against the enemy at

24     Bijela Stijena.  And then it -- I'm not going to read more because from

25     the 15th of June this no longer refers to you.

Page 22652

 1             Did you know that there was so many successful sabotage actions

 2     against Serbs at the Serbian territory in your surroundings that were

 3     executed by your Territorial Defence unit, the Suceska Brigade, the

 4     Lipovac Company, and so on.

 5        A.   Well, I didn't know about many of them.  I did hear of some but I

 6     didn't know of all of them.  These are mostly Muslim villages here so

 7     it's actually the other way around.

 8        Q.   Are you trying to say that your unit was carrying out sabotage

 9     actions against Muslims?

10        A.   No, you didn't understand me.  What we're talking about here is

11     the fact that Suceska was almost entirely Muslim territory, so we're

12     talking about defence here.  But I don't know.  I really cannot confirm

13     anything either way.

14        Q.   But it says here sabotage actions that were successful with

15     losses in manpower and material and equipment on the Serbian side; is

16     that correct?

17        A.   I cannot confirm that.  I had nothing to do with the command nor

18     do I know anything about this.

19        Q.   Thank you.  And what is your profession, sir?

20        A.   I completed the mining and engineering school and I also have

21     high school.

22        Q.   So what is your profession?

23        A.   I am a mining engineering technician (redacted)

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please have 1D497 [as

25     interpreted].

Page 22653

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Did you hear about the Muslim society for --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 4             Please let us know, Mr. Mitchell, if in your opinion any

 5     redaction is necessary.

 6             In the meantime, let us continue.

 7             Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

 8             MR. MITCHELL:  I think to the second part of that sentence.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Yes.

10             Mr. Witness, we are in public session, so any testimony that may

11     reveal your identity should be discussed in private session.  Please

12     don't hesitate to go into private session if necessary.

13             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please not broadcast this

15     document, 1D4947.  There is a Serbian and an English version.

16             JUDGE KWON:  I note the time, Mr. Karadzic.  It's time to take a

17     break.

18             We'll take a break for half an hour and resume at quarter to

19     12.00.

20                           --- Recess taken at 11.15 a.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 11.47 a.m.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Witness, you heard about the international association for the

Page 22654

 1     union of peoples?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Did you speak to them, officially or informally?  Did you answer

 4     their questions?

 5        A.   I think I did, but I'm not sure when.

 6        Q.   In which language did you speak to them?

 7        A.   I think in Bosnian.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now see 1D4947 without

10     broadcasting, please.  The Serbian version too, please.  It seems the

11     Serbian version is late.  Could the witness be shown the Serbian version

12     on the ELMO.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Since we are not going to broadcast it, just hand it

14     over to the witness.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see the second page on the

16     ELMO.  It's important because it's translated differently.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   This is the translation of your conversation with that lady - I

19     don't want to mention her name - is that right?  On the first page you

20     see the lady who spoke to you and the date this year.

21        A.   I don't remember this name at all.  I don't know this person.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the next page, please.

23     Could we see the Serbian version in -- on the ELMO, please.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, let us put it on the ELMO.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  It will be fine.

Page 22655

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Could you now tell the Trial Chamber when you've read this,

 3     education and occupation, and if you need to see the previous occupation

 4     we can be in closed session.

 5        A.   Yes, I want a closed session.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, could the Chamber move into private session.

 7                           [Private session]

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 22656











11  Page 22656 redacted.  Private session.















Page 22657

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8                           [Open session]

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please --

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

12             JUDGE KWON:  Should we go back to private session, Mr. Witness?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, please.  I'm sorry,

14     Your Honour.  I would like to clarify this term, to tell you what it's

15     about.  If we can go back into private session again.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Yes.

17                           [Private session]

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 22658

 1                           [Open session]

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

 3             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, this is a CLSS translation of the

 4     English so we'll have that looked at, that particular term.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 6             Mr. Karadzic, you didn't tender the previous document, a note on

 7     the 281st East Bosnian Light Brigade.  Were you minded to tender it?

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Excellency.  Thank you.

 9     I apologise.  But I didn't know the witness would contest his

10     involvement, that's why it was not translated.  But generally speaking,

11     this entire document, the notes about the history of the -- that division

12     would be tendered and I would like to tender this now.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Whether or not the witness would contest the

14     document, the document should be translated, Mr. Karadzic.  We'll mark it

15     for identification.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D1987, under seal.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Beginning with June 1992 until July 1992 you were not summoned

20     into the brigade?

21        A.   No, I was not called up.

22        Q.   Why do you think that was?  There was no need; right?

23        A.   I said a moment ago I had been wounded and I was put back into

24     civilian structures.

25        Q.   All right.  But you were in the civilian structures in 1993,

Page 22659

 1     1994, and in 1995 until July that year.  Why did they call you up only in

 2     July 1995?

 3        A.   I think it was a state of general mobilisation.  Everybody had to

 4     take part.  It was about defending our homes, our families, our lives.

 5        Q.   So on 5 July 1995, the need arose for you to join the brigade.

 6     Were you then a reservist of that brigade?  Were you part of the reserve

 7     force?

 8        A.   No, we were not reservists.  We got involved and took part, each

 9     to the extent of their abilities, in the joint war effort.  There was

10     constant shelling and persistent attacks.

11        Q.   Sorry, I'm waiting for the interpretation and I would like you to

12     do the same.  How far was the separation line from your village?

13        A.   Three, 4 kilometres perhaps.

14        Q.   Were you able to see the Serbs across the line?

15        A.   We certainly did.  They had a strong howitzer, tanks, and Pragas,

16     and they shelled us every day.  My own house was shelled seven or

17     eight times.

18        Q.   How far is your village from the centre of Srebrenica?

19        A.   Could we go into private session, please?

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

21                           [Private session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 22660

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5                           [Open session]

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Did you know about all the things and all the operations carried

 9     out by the Territorial Defence and later by the 281st Brigade in Serbian

10     areas?

11        A.   No, I didn't know that.

12        Q.   Did you know that that brigade, or rather, the

13     Territorial Defence depending on the period, was involved in the attack

14     against Kravica, a Serbian village, on Christmas day, 7th January 1993?

15        A.   I heard about it, but I was not there.  That's sure.

16        Q.   But did they tell you how it happened, what happened, and how

17     many Serbs got killed?

18        A.   I don't know what happened and I don't remember it.

19        Q.   Throughout the war and especially after the proclamation of the

20     protected area, what did that brigade do?  By that time it was already

21     under the command of Zulfo Tursunovic.

22        A.   I don't know what they did.  I had no insight into any of that.

23        Q.   Were there any funerals at the time?  Were there any men from

24     that brigade who got killed before July 1995?

25        A.   There were people getting killed every day, civilians, including

Page 22661

 1     women and children, because we were shelled every day.  The shells were

 2     falling all around indiscriminately.  The Serb troops did not care

 3     whether they were going to kill a man, a woman, a child, or a cow.  The

 4     shelling was day and night and there were civilians, simple people,

 5     getting killed every day.

 6        Q.   We'll leave it to the observers and the Dutch Battalion to talk

 7     about that.  I'm asking you about the fighting men of the 281st Brigade.

 8     In those two and a half years that the protected area existed, what were

 9     the losses of that brigade?  You must have attended some funerals.

10        A.   I don't know.  I don't remember.

11        Q.   Was anyone from the brigade killed?

12        A.   Probably.

13        Q.   Where did they die?

14        A.   I cannot say anything with any certainty.  I know only the people

15     who got killed where I lived from shelling by the Serbian army.

16        Q.   Thank you.  All right.  But you were not called up before July,

17     there was no need because the Serbs had never tried to enter the enclave

18     on your side?

19        A.   They did try many times, but I don't know the dates.  I'm telling

20     you I was part of the civilian structures.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Tell us then, do you know that up until July 1995, or

22     rather, before July 1995, the 28th Division had over 2.000 casualties

23     among its combatants?

24        A.   I don't know.  I cannot confirm that, but I did hear of such

25     figures.  However, I cannot stand by that.

Page 22662

 1        Q.   And do you know that almost all the combatants of the

 2     28th Division lost their lives in Serb villages, just as Serb combatants

 3     lost their lives in Serb villages?

 4        A.   I cannot confirm that and I do not think that is correct.

 5        Q.   Do you know that Zulfo Tursunovic was decorated with the Order of

 6     the Golden Lily?

 7        A.   I don't know.

 8        Q.   Do you know that Zulfo Tursunovic with only four years of

 9     elementary school to his name had quite a career in the military and

10     became a celebrated commander of this brigade?

11        A.   I don't know anything about this.

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14        A.   Yes, I want to move into closed session.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

16                           [Private session]

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 22663











11  Pages 22663-22664 redacted.  Private session.















Page 22665

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17                           [Open session]

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   You said on that occasion that at first humanitarian aid arrived

20     regularly and that it was distributed to the civilian population while

21     the army received humanitarian aid in different ways.  In which ways did

22     the army receive humanitarian aid?

23        A.   I don't know in which ways they received aid nor did I have any

24     insight into their documents.

25        Q.   You also heard that there was some abuse of humanitarian aid,

Page 22666

 1     that that was talked about as well?

 2        A.   I don't know about that.

 3        Q.   Did you say something like that?

 4        A.   I don't remember.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the previous one,

 6     1D4943, can we have that, page 1 again.  The date is the 19th of July,

 7     1995.

 8             Can this please not be broadcast.  Could we please have the next

 9     page.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   When you spoke about misunderstandings between civilian and

12     military structures, did you actually speak about this?

13        A.   I don't remember.  It was a long time ago.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go back to page 1 in Serbian

15     and I don't know about the English.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Look at the bottom.  It says:

18             "I heard -- I heard that there had been some abuse regarding the

19     distribution, but who did that I don't know.  Conflicts between the

20     military and civilian authorities in the (redacted)

21        A.   Sorry, Your Honours.  You are reading this directly and thereby

22     disclosing my identity.

23             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think the question so far put to you does

24     reveal your identity.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, but he's directly

Page 22667

 1     reading out the place that I'm from.  I don't want him to disclose that.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  That will be redacted if he referred to the actual

 3     hamlet where you're from, but I don't think he read out the village name.

 4             Did you read that part and could you answer the question -- what

 5     was the question, Mr. Karadzic?

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This was the question:  Does the

 7     witness remember hearing of any abuse.  And first I asked how the army

 8     received humanitarian aid because that is what the witness had stated,

 9     that they had received some aid in some way.  And I asked whether there

10     had been any abuse of humanitarian aid, and it says here, yes, that he

11     had heard of it but he did not know who was actually involved in this and

12     who had actually committed that.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I claim once again that I don't

14     know who it was.  Possibly there was something, but I don't know anything

15     about that.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

17             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, if we could perhaps redact page 43,

18     line 22, just that last word.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Yes.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Now we have to move to the main event involved because we don't

23     have much time, Mr. Witness, but it's obvious that you had forgotten what

24     it was that you had said at the time.

25        A.   I most certainly have not forgotten.

Page 22668

 1        Q.   You were called in the beginning of July.  Were you the only

 2     person who was called up or was all of the former Territorial Defence

 3     called up?

 4        A.   I believe that everyone was demobilised.

 5        Q.   You mean mobilised?

 6        A.   Yes, mobilised.  That's what I meant, to protect the population,

 7     to be involved in self-defence.

 8        Q.   You went to reinforce the lines there.  What is the name of the

 9     area otherwise?  Is it called the Bandera Triangle?  You're not the only

10     person from there.  There were 5.000, 6.000 of you there, so this does

11     not disclose your identity.

12        A.   I was never in that place.  We had other things to do.

13        Q.   Is that where the lines broke down first or did it happen

14     somewhere else?

15        A.   I think it was elsewhere, by Zeleni Jadar, that they first fell.

16        Q.   Aha.  Thank you.  So you were at the front line when you heard

17     that the lines went down and that the Serbs entered Srebrenica.  When did

18     you hear that, on which day?

19        A.   The 11th, in the evening -- in the afternoon, on that Tuesday.

20        Q.   Now, there was an order issued to leave the village.  Who was it

21     that issued this order to leave the village?

22        A.   I don't know who ordered it, but the news arrived quickly that

23     the entire town had fallen and that we were all supposed to leave and

24     move towards Tuzla.

25        Q.   Was a distinction made in that order between the civilian

Page 22669

 1     population and the military?  What was the order issued to the civilian

 2     population?

 3        A.   I think that there was no order for anyone.

 4        Q.   Is it correct that it had been ordered for you to leave the

 5     village?

 6        A.   Yes, I was told that we had to leave, that we could not stay,

 7     that Srebrenica had fallen.  It was clear that we had to leave.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  And was it stated then where the civilians were

 9     supposed to go and where the soldiers were supposed to go, the

10     able-bodied men?

11        A.   I cannot claim that somebody had said that, but I know that all

12     the able-bodied men, as I have already said, went into the woods, towards

13     Susnjari, whereas the women and children went towards UNPROFOR in

14     Potocari.  They were hoping that UNPROFOR would protect them.

15        Q.   Thank you.  So did you know that your civilian authorities had

16     accepted the fall of the enclave and that weapons were supposed to be

17     surrendered and that everyone was supposed to act in accordance with the

18     decision of the civilian authorities?

19        A.   Could you please repeat that.  Are you referring to 1993 when

20     demilitarisation was carried out?

21        Q.   The 11th of July, 1995, the civilian authorities came and

22     accepted the fall of the enclave and they reached agreements with

23     General Mladic.

24        A.   Please explain this to me.  What kind of civilian authorities?

25     Who acceded to this?  Now you have upset me.  It is not true and I can

Page 22670

 1     never agree with what you're saying now, that someone had accepted that,

 2     that anyone from the civilian structures had accepted that.  These

 3     negotiations that were conducted with Mladic were under duress and duress

 4     only.

 5        Q.   So before you left your village, did Serb soldiers enter your

 6     village?

 7        A.   Yes, correct.  A number of them in my area were already burned

 8     and then we could see that they had entered the village across and that

 9     there were bullets and shells flying and burning.  It was indescribable.

10        Q.   So which date was that?  Are you trying to say that from the

11     north-west the Serb units entered the enclave on the 11th of July?

12        A.   Yes, on the 11th of July towards Buca and the following villages

13     were burned --

14             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not catch the names of the

15     villages.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   But they did not enter your village when you were there; is that

18     correct?

19        A.   Yes.  As I told you, were we supposed to wait to be slaughtered,

20     just like all the others were slaughtered?  Everybody was withdrawing,

21     pulling out of the villages and we could see from a distance of

22     500 metres that the village was burning.

23        Q.   Can we look at this statement of yours that you gave to The Hague

24     investigators -- just one moment.  Let's see what number that is.  In the

25     first interview with the investigators you said that there was an order

Page 22671

 1     that civilians should go to Potocari and that the soldiers should go

 2     towards Jaglici and Susnjari.  Is that what you stated or should we look

 3     for your statement?

 4        A.   Probably it's the way I said it there.  I don't know who issued

 5     the order, though.

 6        Q.   And the units were lined up then in Susnjari.  Is that correct?

 7        A.   Nobody would be able to line up 14- or 15.000 troops.  It was

 8     just a question of people grouping in order for them to be able to move

 9     ahead.  Simply groups were formed, a column.

10        Q.   And this grouping, was that something that was done according to

11     the brigades because there were brigades in your area; isn't that right?

12        A.   I don't know anything about that.

13        Q.   Did you group together with fighters of the 281st or the 282nd or

14     the 284th Brigade?

15        A.   I have to say again -- can you imagine a chaotic situation,

16     everything is burning, ammunition is flying around, and can you see in

17     that situation how 14- or 15.000 people would make up groups?  I really

18     don't know anything about that.

19        Q.   And who commanded you from Susnjari onwards at that time, who was

20     in command?

21        A.   I don't know.  I don't think that there was any command.

22        Q.   In your statement of the 16th of August, 1995 --

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is 65 ter 3246, 3246, can we

24     look at it briefly and, please, it should not be broadcast.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 22672

 1        Q.   But you said on page 1 that you think that the command in

 2     Srebrenica issued the order and that in Lehovici the women separated from

 3     the men, the women and children.  Is that what you said?

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at the next page,

 5     please.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it could not have happened in

 7     Lehovici.  I don't know how it was translated, but the separation was

 8     done on the hill in the woods above Lehovici.  But in the translation it

 9     says that this was done in Lehovici.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Well, let's look at what it says here in the second paragraph.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this please not be broadcast.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   "There was an order to go to Susnjari.  The women were to go to

15     Potocari.  I believe that the order came from the Bosnian government

16     command in Srebrenica.  The women and the men walked together until we

17     reached the village of Lehovici where we split apart."

18             Is that correct?

19        A.   Yes, we separated after that village.  I don't know anything

20     about this command.  I cannot really say anything about that.

21        Q.   And then you say that there were 13- to 15.000 men there,

22     one-third of whom were armed.  Is it correct that at the front of the

23     column were the men who were armed?  Is that correct?

24        A.   I don't know.  I didn't really see anyone.  Probably that's how

25     it was.  I was towards the end of the column.

Page 22673

 1        Q.   And do you know that you said that one-third of them was armed?

 2        A.   Yes, I think so.

 3        Q.   And did you say that the sappers were going -- walking in front

 4     of the column, going ahead of the column.  Do you recall saying that?

 5        A.   No, I don't recall saying that.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  And were there any other columns there or was this

 7     the only column that was formed in Susnjari?

 8        A.   Well, I cannot confirm anything.  If you imagine a mass of

 9     15.000 people and everyone looking to save themselves.  I don't know if

10     there were any other columns.  We just all went forward en masse trying

11     to get through.

12        Q.   Did anybody there have any kind of leadership or command role?

13        A.   I don't know about that.

14        Q.   And did you state that Ejub Golic took over certain duties

15     pertaining to the column?

16        A.   All I heard after the major ambush in the night of the 12th and

17     the 13th, that there were some 50 to 80 people who were wounded in that

18     creek.  I heard him.  I didn't know him myself, I didn't see him, but I

19     heard from people who were there that this Golic had ordered that the

20     wounded be taken up to the hill.  And I saw some 40 to 50 people

21     definitely in the course of the night who had been seriously wounded, I

22     saw them on the hill, Kamenicko hill.

23        Q.   Thank you.  And did you know that the commander of the 281st,

24     Zulfo Tursunovic, was in the column?

25        A.   Probably he was, but I didn't see him.

Page 22674

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Were these serious attacks that were carried out

 2     against the column by the Serbian army?

 3        A.   They were serious throughout that whole period.  There was

 4     shelling, howitzer fire from the area of Kravica, from the asphalt road,

 5     all along that asphalt road towards Konjevic Polje, day and night.

 6        Q.   And how was that, were there any casualties?

 7        A.   Many casualties.  I just mentioned that only in the night of the

 8     12th to the 13th I saw 40 to 50 people who were seriously wounded who

 9     were brought to that hill.  I don't know what happened to those people

10     later.  I didn't hear about that from anyone, and those people were never

11     seen again.

12        Q.   Were they just wounded?  Nobody was killed?

13        A.   There were so many killed that nobody could carry them out from

14     the creek, no one could save these people.  Definitely a large number

15     were killed.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that nevertheless you were aware that a

17     part of the 281st Brigade numbering about 1.000 fighters and

18     500 civilians, that's what the brigade comprised, and you stated that in

19     your statement 1D4943, page 2.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters did not catch the date.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Did you bury the people who had -- killed in the fighting in

23     these -- Potoci?

24        A.   Well, it's a bit of a silly question if I may say that.  How

25     could we have time to bury anyone when you don't even know what will

Page 22675

 1     happen to you in the next minute?  We didn't even have time to look at

 2     anyone.

 3        Q.   Who buried these people?

 4        A.   Nobody ever did unless they were found later or the Serbs

 5     gathered them and put them in mass graves.  All the rest are probably

 6     still there in those woods.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  These are the sad consequences of civil war, but, all

 8     right, we have to establish the truth.

 9        A.   I can never agree with what you are saying, that it was a civil

10     war.  It was never a civil war.  It was an attack on the Muslim

11     population.

12        Q.   Well, all right.  Let's see if you said that the brigade had

13     1.000 soldiers and 500 civilians.  This is in the second paragraph

14     some -- line 10 to 12 from the top.  Is that correct?

15             "We lined up in brigades and I was with our brigade, the 281st,

16     which then had 1.000 soldiers and 500 civilians ..."

17             And you are telling us that you had nothing to do with the

18     brigade.  But here in the statement, an early one in 1995, you said that

19     you had lined up together with your brigade and probably all the others

20     stood with their own brigade.

21        A.   Well, it's been 17 or 18 years since then.  I cannot recall

22     everything that I said, but I say again, I ask you to imagine a mass of

23     15.000 men and how it would be possible to line them up.  I'm not saying

24     that they didn't fall into groups, but there was no proper lining up.

25        Q.   So you were together with the men of the 281st Brigade, together

Page 22676

 1     in a group.  Perhaps you did not line up, but somebody did command you on

 2     that route.  It was a military breakthrough.

 3        A.   No, I wouldn't agree with you.  There was nobody in command.  Of

 4     course we grouped together.  I knew my men, my relatives, my neighbours,

 5     so we all grouped like that in the brigades.  As for any kind of command,

 6     I don't know anything about that.

 7        Q.   A little bit further down you say that Golic was the battalion

 8     commander and later it was said that he was Naser's deputy and that he

 9     dealt with pulling out the wounded and the dead were not taken out at

10     all?

11        A.   Well, I didn't see anybody taking the dead out of Potok.  All I

12     saw -- and like I say, only the wounded were taken to the hill, but I did

13     here that Golic took over.  I personally did not know him.

14        Q.   Thank you.  And your group, your brigade, how much did it cover?

15     How many kilometres did it cover in the course of those two days?

16        A.   If we say that we left on the 11th in the evening, up to

17     40 kilometres, I think, by the 13th.  This was the 11th, the 12th, and

18     the 13th in the morning.  30 -- I don't know exactly, but it's somewhere

19     in the range of 30 to 40 kilometres on different terrain.

20        Q.   And during those 40 kilometres that you covered, how much of that

21     time were you exposed to attacks?

22        A.   We have to clarify something.  That section from Susnjari, some

23     15 or 20 kilometres, this was the free territory.  So from Susnjari to

24     Konjevic Polje -- or, rather, to Kravica, we were exposed to attacks the

25     entire time.  When we joined this route we were exposed to shelling and

Page 22677

 1     attacks.  The biggest ambush took place on the 12th in the evening, just

 2     as it was getting dark, at about 8.00 perhaps.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  So this was direct combat contact, an ambush, use of

 4     fire-arms; is that correct?

 5        A.   Yes, we were attacked.  We were shelled.  It was night.  The

 6     shells started to fall.  I don't really know exactly what was going on.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  You say here that those who were killed or people who

 8     were missing from your village --

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we just briefly move to private

10     session, please.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

12                           [Private session]

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 22678











11  Page 22678 redacted.  Private session.















Page 22679

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16                           [Open session]

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   When exactly did you surrender?

19        A.   I think it was on the 13th in the morning -- I'm not sure, but

20     between 11.00 and 12.00.  It was a Thursday.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Then you were transported by trucks to Kravica;

22     right?

23        A.   Since that relative of mine - I don't want to mention his

24     name - was badly wounded in the head, on that morning of the 13th, we

25     were shelled in the woods all the time, and we heard them calling us to

Page 22680

 1     surrender all the time.  And there was this white APC shuttling from

 2     Bratunac to Konjevic Polje all the time with a UN flag and that's where

 3     the voice [Realtime transcript read in error "boys"] came from, calling

 4     us to surrender, that we would all be treated by the Geneva Convention,

 5     that we should carry our dead to the -- our wounded to the road and

 6     surrender.  But when we came down we were beaten by the soldiers

 7     immediately.  We gave them -- we handed over our wounded and all our

 8     belongings, our ID papers, little books, whatever we had.  And we were

 9     transported to Zvornik.  We carried other wounded towards Konjevic Polje.

10             I never heard what became of that relative of mine.  He was found

11     and identified in 1998.

12        Q.   Before that you saw some people committing suicide in panic, as

13     many as 40 of them.  40 such bodies were found.

14        A.   I saw some incidents like that, but certainly not that many.

15     There were 40 people lying in the creek dead or wounded.  What was going

16     on, I don't know.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see 65 ter 3246, page 4,

18     please.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   But you did see suicides; right?

21        A.   No.  I think I saw one, one person committing suicide, no more.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

23             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, just a transcript correction at

24     page 57, line 1, the first four words I don't think were what the witness

25     said.  So maybe that could be clarified with him.

Page 22681

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] How come in the transcript it's not

 2     part of the question it's part of the answer.

 3             MR. MITCHELL:  I heard the interpreter say "that's where the

 4     voice came from."

 5             JUDGE KWON:  I take that to be the case.  That will be corrected

 6     later on.

 7             Yes, let's continue.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Let us look at page 4, what you said about those suicides, that

10     they activated a grenade between them and there were dead bodies all

11     around.  It's in paragraph 1.

12             "Two men activated a grenade, killed each other with automatic

13     rifles.  They were brothers.  They shot at each other and fell to the

14     ground.  A group of four to five people took each other by the hand

15     and -- joined hands and detonated a grenade between them.  There were so

16     many bodies and blood everywhere that every 4 or 5 metres there was

17     another body.  It was very hot and flies gathered around the bodies.  The

18     smell was terrible.  I could not look at the bodies anymore.  I saw about

19     40 bodies in total ..." et cetera.

20        A.   I don't know that there were that many suicides.  I saw that many

21     bodies, but in the end, I heard that Serb soldiers were involved.  They

22     wore some different insignia.  They engaged in wrong-doing, mixing with

23     the column.

24        Q.   You said the Serb soldiers mingled with the column and did

25     something?

Page 22682

 1        A.   Yes, they used tear gas and caused panic in the crowd.

 2        Q.   Do you know it was just a rumour and the Serb soldiers did not

 3     mix with the column?  How did you allow such panic to overcome you from

 4     pure rumours?

 5        A.   Those were not just rumours.  There were Serb soldiers within the

 6     column.  We were cut off.  We were the tail of the column and we were cut

 7     off from the body of the column, and I heard that there were Serb

 8     soldiers who infiltrated our group.

 9        Q.   How many combatants made it to Tuzla, to the best of your

10     knowledge?

11        A.   I never knew the exact figure.

12        Q.   What would you say if I told you that the State Security Service,

13     the Muslim State Security Service from Tuzla, reported that 10.000 troops

14     from the 28th Division made it through and still more were coming?

15        A.   I can tell you quite responsibly that that's not true.  It never

16     came close to that figure.

17        Q.   How can you know if you never made it there?

18        A.   I don't understand.  What do you mean I did not make it to Tuzla?

19        Q.   I'm saying that 10.000 fighting men from the 28th Division made

20     it to Tuzla and the State Security Service reports that number, saying

21     that still more were coming.  How do you know that the State Security

22     Service did not see those men?

23        A.   I'd like to see a list of those 10.000 men.  I'm telling you with

24     full responsibility that this document is not accurate.

25        Q.   We'll find it in a moment.  It's a report about incoming

Page 22683

 1     fighters.  Let's go back to that moment when you were put onto several

 2     trucks.  How many trucks?

 3        A.   I was not able to count the trucks.  I saw two trucks in

 4     Konjevic Polje standing and they took us to Kasaba, to the playground.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  How many people fit onto one truck?

 6        A.   I don't know about the other trucks.  I know only about that one

 7     truck.  When Ratko Mladic addressed us in Kasaba and told his soldiers to

 8     put them back onto the truck and we arrived in Kravica, somebody said we

 9     should count ourselves.  We then counted 119 on our truck.  I don't know

10     about the others.

11        Q.   And you were all taken there and remained on the truck that whole

12     night?

13        A.   They started provoking us, interrogating us, hitting us with

14     their rifle-butts.  Those were tarp-covered trucks.  People from our

15     truck were begging for water, panic reigned on the truck.  Can you

16     imagine the heat, the temperature --

17        Q.   We'll come to that.  You remained on the truck the whole night?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   With all the others?

20        A.   No, I believe five men were taken off the truck that night.

21        Q.   But the other trucks were there and the people on them remained

22     on board all night?

23        A.   I don't know how many were taken off the other trucks, but I was

24     able to see a little, peeping through the tarpaulin, that there were

25     two trucks behind us and they remained there until the morning.

Page 22684

 1        Q.   You said that they were looking for specific people and you said

 2     you recognised one Grujic?

 3        A.   Excuse me, Your Honour, could we go back into private session.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 5                           [Private session]

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25                           [Open session]

Page 22685

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Your assertion that you didn't have enough time is

 2     not acceptable at all, after having spent almost an hour on trifle

 3     issues.  I was struggling to understand the relevance.  I was about to

 4     ask a question about that to Mr. Robinson.  You have just five -- exactly

 5     five minutes.  The Judges discussed it and we are not minded to extend

 6     your time at all.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can only regret it, that this

 8     witness remains not cross-examined.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   They were looking for a specific man, Simo.  Were they looking

11     for people in order to save them or to take their revenge on them?  How

12     did you understand it?

13        A.   I think they were looking for revenge, but I don't really know

14     anything about it.

15        Q.   Thank you.  In the process of capturing, you say you were not

16     listed, but they did take your ID papers away?

17        A.   We took our IDs from our pockets and threw them onto a huge heap.

18     No list was made.

19        Q.   I'm a bit confused.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see P4098.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   What were those classrooms with the door just 1, 1 and a half

23     metre away?

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see P4098.  It doesn't

25     have to be broadcast, although it's encrypted.

Page 22686

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   How can a classroom fit there?  How can this be a door leading to

 3     the classroom?

 4        A.   I'm stating with full responsibility, and I stand by it, that

 5     those were classrooms.  I don't know what the width was, I couldn't

 6     measure it, but I am asserting this is a school and those were

 7     classrooms.

 8        Q.   Well, they would have to be 100 metres long because it's only

 9     2 metres between the doors?

10        A.   I'm not going to argue whether it's 2 or 3 metres.  All I know is

11     this is a school and these are classrooms.

12        Q.   I'm interested in the moment of the execution itself.  You say

13     you walked from the trucks.  How long did you walk?  How far was the

14     execution site from the trucks?

15        A.   We did not walk from the trucks.  When we were brought by the

16     trucks and when we were ordered to get off and line up again, it could

17     have been only 5 to 10 metres away from the bodies of the people who had

18     been brought there earlier and already killed.  We did not walk anywhere.

19        Q.   How large were the groups, five by five?  Was that what you said?

20        A.   I seem to have heard them saying "Five men get off the truck,"

21     and then the shooting started immediately.

22        Q.   What kind of trucks were those?

23        A.   You're really asking too much.  I'm trying to explain to you how

24     afraid I was when we got there.  The truck, the back of the truck was

25     covered by the tarpaulin down to the step.  But those were military

Page 22687

 1     trucks, a Dietz maybe was the type.  It was night-time.  I think that

 2     those were military trucks.

 3        Q.   If they entered the school using that path, the track, they must

 4     have been small trucks.  It couldn't have been a big truck.

 5        A.   I couldn't agree.  I said I don't know what kind of trucks

 6     exactly those were, what type, but I think with a 90 per cent certainty

 7     those were military trucks.

 8        Q.   So you were taken off the trucks five by five.  And how long an

 9     interval could it have been between the groups?  One group of five would

10     walk 5 to 10 metres and would be executed?

11        A.   I'm really shattered by what I hear from you.  You see all those

12     bodies on that plateau.  I myself was shot at, unconscious.  I don't know

13     how long I lay there.  I don't know how long the execution lasted.

14        Q.   I'm sorry.  This is not against you.  This is my challenging of

15     inaccuracies and imprecisions.  If it took so much time for five by five

16     people to be executed, some things remain very unconvincing to me.  There

17     are 20 groups, five people each.  How long does it take?

18        A.   You are insulting me now.  I'm telling you, they -- the shooting

19     was constant.  It could have lasted all night.  I would be honestly

20     ashamed to ask questions like that.  A thousand people were lying there.

21        Q.   I don't know.  There were many victims.  I don't know if you were

22     one of them.  There are many contradictions and it would take a while to

23     clear them all up.

24             You say you saw a dam from a distance, you saw soldiers, and you

25     saw some people from -- from the hill when you managed to get away a bit?

Page 22688

 1        A.   I did.  It was not a great distance.  It was only 200 metres --

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, now put your last question.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Oh, last question.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Mr. Witness, did you have a voluminous correspondence with the

 6     Netherlands and another country, as did the OTP on your behalf, in order

 7     to extend your stay in that country or prevent the repatriation of

 8     yourself and your numerous family members?  Were many letters sent on

 9     your behalf by the OTP and you yourself to two different countries and in

10     one of them you managed to secure residence for yourself and for your

11     many family members --

12        A.   [No interpretation]

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We did not hear the

14     answer.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Interpreters did not hear your answer.  Could you

16     repeat it.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I don't know.  I may have

18     asked for that.  Certainly there were requests.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   There were requests and there was their initiative too.  There

21     are over 20 letters there; right?

22        A.   No, I wouldn't agree with that.  I am not aware of that.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I would like to

24     tender that entire bundle --

25             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Mitchell.

Page 22689

 1             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, I think Mr. Karadzic should take a

 2     look at -- a careful look at those letters.  There are two people with

 3     the same name and different birth-dates and I think it's a combination of

 4     those two that gives rise to the total of around 20.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I received that from you, from the

 6     OTP, in relation to this witness, this entire bundle.  I did not check

 7     the date of birth, but it is certain that part of the letters pertain to

 8     this witness.  I kindly ask the Trial Chamber to allow us to tender this

 9     once we've made a distinction on the basis of date of birth and father's

10     name so that we see which documents pertain to the other witness.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could we please move into closed

12     session.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

14             And what's the 65 ter number for that, Mr. Karadzic?

15                           [Private session]

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 22690

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8                           [Open session]

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Just to clarify this briefly.  Did you have any binoculars when

12     you were watching that and when you were counting the people on the dam?

13        A.   Again I apologise --

14             JUDGE KWON:  No, just a second --

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- you are insulting --

16             JUDGE KWON:  You don't need to answer, Mr. Witness.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellency --

18             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic --

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- let me just explain why --

20             JUDGE KWON:  -- if there are matters unexamined with respect to

21     witness, it's totally your fault, Mr. Karadzic.  We are cutting you off

22     now.

23             Mr. Mitchell, do you have any re-examination?

24             MR. MITCHELL:  No, Mr. President.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 22691

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may, could I just explain why

 2     I asked this?  Mr. Ruez as investigator --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic --

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- could not without any

 5     binoculars --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, you can make submissions later on.

 7             Well, sir, that concludes your evidence.  On behalf of this

 8     Chamber and the Tribunal as a whole, I would like to thank you for your

 9     coming to The Hague again to give it.  Now you are free to go.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I ask for this document to be

12     admitted as well once we've found it, the state security document,

13     stating the number of people who got out --

14             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

15             We'll rise all together, Mr. Witness, given that it is now time

16     for break.  Just before that, what state security document are you

17     referring to, Mr. Karadzic?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The state security of Tuzla

19     provided information immediately after the column got through about the

20     arrival of 10.000 soldiers, and that is what I wanted to tender.

21             JUDGE KWON:  You will have another opportunity to tender that

22     document.

23             We'll take a break now for an hour and resume at quarter past

24     2.00.

25                           --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.11 p.m.

Page 22692

 1                           [The witness withdrew]

 2                           [The witness entered court]

 3                           --- On resuming at 2.18 p.m.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Would the witness take the solemn declaration,

 5     please.

 6             THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

 7     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, sir.

 9             Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

10             MR. MITCHELL:  Thank you, Mr. President.

11                           WITNESS:  JOHN CLARK

12                           Examination by Mr. Mitchell:

13        Q.   Good afternoon, Doctor.

14        A.   Good afternoon.

15        Q.   Could you please state your full name.

16        A.   John Clark.

17        Q.   Before we start, can you just briefly describe what those

18     documents are that are in front of you at the moment.

19        A.   These are reports I've prepared for the work I did in Bosnia and

20     in Croatia.  I could list them if you want, though.  They are related to

21     the Srebrenica grave-sites, related to Paklenik Cave, Ivan Polje, and

22     Vlasenica.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Doctor, what is your current profession?

24        A.   I'm a forensic pathologist and I'm based at the University of

25     Glasgow, which is in Scotland.  I've been a forensic pathologist for

Page 22693

 1     about 25 years approximately.

 2             MR. MITCHELL:  Could I please have 65 ter 11139 in e-court.

 3        Q.   Dr. Clark, yesterday you provided the OTP with an updated copy of

 4     your CV.  Can you confirm that this is the updated CV that you can see in

 5     front of you?

 6        A.   Yes, it is.

 7             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, I'd just like to tender that CV

 8     now.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P4102, Your Honours.

11             MR. MITCHELL:

12        Q.   Dr. Clark, you were the chief forensic pathologist for the

13     Office of the Prosecutor in 1999, 2000, and 2001.  Is that correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Can you briefly describe your role as the chief forensic

16     pathologist?

17        A.   I was the person effectively in charge of the mortuary, which was

18     looking at the remains which had been exhumed from grave-sites.  So in

19     that role I was looking after particularly other pathologists, but an

20     overall monitoring of all the other people in the mortuary as well.  I

21     helped to recruit these various teams, and my other role having -- I was

22     carried out large numbers of post mortem examinations myself, but at the

23     end of the work, it was then my role to bring together all the reports,

24     the individual reports, which had been produced and to compile them into

25     meaningful reports available for the courts such as these documents which

Page 22694

 1     I have here.

 2        Q.   Well, I'd like to ask you just about six of those reports that

 3     you wrote.  You wrote three reports about the examination of

 4     Srebrenica-related remains; is that correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And you also wrote three reports about remains from

 7     Paklenik Cave, Ivan Polje and Vlasenica?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, I'd like to tender those six

10     reports at this stage.  The Vlasenica report, which is 65 ter 11138,

11     should be under seal.  There's a redacted version, which has

12     65 ter 11138A, which can be tendered publicly.  The reason for that is

13     the unredacted report refers to a witness who has protective measures in

14     this case and describes his evidence in enough detail that it would be

15     very easy to match the name in Dr. Clark's report with his testimony.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Any objections?

17             MR. ROBINSON:  No, Mr. President.

18             JUDGE KWON:  In order to give the proper number, in what order

19     are you tendering those reports?

20             MR. MITCHELL:  The first one is the 1999 Srebrenica report, which

21     is 65 ter 2407 --

22             JUDGE KWON:  So we'll do it one by one.  That will be admitted

23     as ...?

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P4103, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

Page 22695

 1             MR. MITCHELL:  Then Dr. Clark's 2000 Srebrenica report,

 2     65 ter 2430.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Exhibit P4104.

 4             MR. MITCHELL:  Dr. Clark's 2001 Srebrenica report, which is

 5     65 ter 03445.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Exhibit P4105.

 7             MR. MITCHELL:  The Paklenik Cave and Ivan Polje main report,

 8     which is 65 ter 11135.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Exhibit P4106.

10             MR. MITCHELL:  The Paklenik Cave and Ivan Polje supplementary

11     report, which is 65 ter 11136.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Exhibit 4107.

13             MR. MITCHELL:  And lastly is the Vlasenica report, which is 11138

14     for the under seal version --

15             JUDGE KWON:  The confidential version will be admitted as

16     Exhibit P4108 and the public redacted version will be admitted as

17     Exhibit P4109.

18             MR. MITCHELL:  Thank you, Mr. President.

19        Q.   Dr. Clark, do you recall testifying about your 1999 Srebrenica

20     report in the Krstic case on the 30th and 31st of May 2000?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Have you had an opportunity to recently review that testimony?

23        A.   I have.  I've looked through it all, yes.

24        Q.   Can you confirm that it accurately reflects your evidence in that

25     case?

Page 22696

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And if you were asked the same questions today, would your

 3     answers be the same?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, I'd now like to tender Dr. Clark's

 6     Krstic testimony, that's 65 ter 03223.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Any objection, Mr. Robinson?

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  No, Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

10             That will be admitted into evidence.

11             MR. MITCHELL:  And there are --

12             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P4110, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

14             MR. MITCHELL:  And there are 23 associated exhibits,

15     65 ter 03224 --

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I note them.  Are there any objections,

17     Mr. Robinson?

18             MR. ROBINSON:  No, Mr. President.

19             JUDGE KWON:  They will all be admitted.

20             MR. MITCHELL:  Thank you.

21             I'd now like to read a summary of Dr. Clark's evidence.

22             In 1999 Dr. Clark oversaw the examination of human remains that

23     were exhumed from Srebrenica-related mass graves at Kozluk, Nova Kasaba,

24     Konjevic Polje, and Glogova.  He describes the examination process at the

25     mortuary and explained how his team dealt with the following four issues

Page 22697

 1     that were encountered during these examinations.  The first issue was

 2     determining whether damage to skeletonised remains had occurred before or

 3     after death.  Dr. Clark testified that where the damage was caused by

 4     gun-shot, this was generally assumed to have occurred in life as there

 5     were huge numbers of gun-shot injuries and it was not believable that all

 6     these people died in an obscure and undetected way and then were

 7     systematically shot after death.

 8             The second issue arose from the expectation that many bodies had

 9     suffered post mortem damage as a result of being piled on top of each

10     other and compacted in graves.  Dr. Clark testified that as a result of

11     this expectation, crushing-type injuries such as fractures to the ribs

12     and pelvis were generally interpreted as having occurred after death.  He

13     accepted that this presumption may have resulted in some genuine

14     ante mortem blunt-force injuries being missed.

15             The third issue was proving that damage to bone was a gun-shot

16     injury and not something else.  A gun-shot injury was only deemed to be

17     proven where there was a typical gun-shot entrance in the bone, a typical

18     gun-shot fragmentation pattern in a bone or where a bullet or part of a

19     bullet was located in the body.  Dr. Clark testified that as a result of

20     relying on only these three categories the number of gun-shot injuries

21     may well have been underestimated.

22             The fourth issue related to the determination of cause of death

23     in skeletonised remains.  For example, where there was evidence of a

24     gun-shot injury to the head or chest, Dr. Clark testified that it was

25     reasonable to imply that this gun-shot was the cause of death.  However,

Page 22698

 1     where the only evidence of gun-shot injury was to an arm or a leg, such

 2     an injury was not necessarily fatal and the cause of death would be left

 3     as unascertained.

 4             Dr. Clark then summarised his team's findings from the 1999

 5     season as follows.  From the Kozluk site, 292 bodies and 233 body parts

 6     were examined.  All were male and a significant number had physical

 7     disabilities or signs of chronic disease.  Blindfolds were associated

 8     with 44 bodies and ligatures with 140 bodies.  Definite gun-shot injury

 9     was present in 89 per cent of those bodies.

10             From the Nova Kasaba site, 55 bodies and two body parts were

11     examined.  The victims were all male and there were gun-shot injuries in

12     87 per cent of the bodies.  From the Konjevic Polje site, 12 bodies were

13     examined.  One was female and the rest appeared to be male, all showed

14     evidence of gun-shot injury.  From the Glogova site, sub-graves 2 to 6,

15     90 bodies and 154 body parts were examined.  All were male and most had

16     been shot.  There was also evidence that at least one person died from a

17     pointed object penetrating his skull.

18             Lastly, Dr. Clark stated that while the possibility could not be

19     entirely excluded, there was nothing to suggest that these bodies were

20     combat casualties.  He noted the presence of blindfolds and ligatures,

21     the fact that some bodies had significant disabilities, the patterns of

22     gun-shot wounds to the back and single shots to the head, the absence of

23     large numbers of wounded that would be expected in a combat situation,

24     and the fact that nearly all of the observed injuries were caused by

25     gun-shots when studies have shown that the most common injuries in battle

Page 22699

 1     are caused by shrapnel or other projectiles.

 2        Q.   Dr. Clark, I have a few additional questions for you.  In the

 3     Krstic case you testified in detail about the mortuary procedures that

 4     were in place in the 1999 season.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Did those same mortuary procedures apply for 2000 and the 2001

 7     season?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   You also described the four issues or limitations on pathology

10     evidence that were encountered in 1999.  Again, were those limitations

11     also in place in the 2000 and 2001 season?

12        A.   Yes, they applied in both these seasons, yes.

13        Q.   And your observations about --

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the speakers please

15     be asked to slow down.  Thank you.

16             MR. MITCHELL:  Yes.

17        Q.   Your observations about whether the bodies you examined in 1999

18     were combat casualties, again, do those observations apply to the bodies

19     you examined in 2000 and 2001?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Now, I have a couple of specific questions about the injuries

22     that you observed on these bodies.  In your Krstic testimony you talked

23     about the three different categories of gun-shot injury, the clear

24     bullet-hole, the fragmentation pattern, or the presence of a bullet or

25     part of a bullet.  Can you describe for the Court how a shrapnel injury

Page 22700

 1     appeared different to those three categories of gun-shot injury, in

 2     particular the gun-shot that was evidenced by a fragmentation pattern of

 3     the bone.

 4        A.   Yes.  A gun-shot injury of a high-velocity bullet going through

 5     bone typically causes a hole and shattering the bone round about and in a

 6     lot of cases that is what we saw.  Shrapnel tends to cause much more

 7     irregular damage to a bone and perhaps over a larger area, perhaps the

 8     whole of a lower leg or a large part of the pelvis.  The injuries were

 9     much more irregular.  And we also based it very much on the finding not

10     of bullet fragments but of shrapnel fragments.  So we -- quite a lot of

11     cases in which we found shrapnel and we found very irregular damage to

12     the bone and we interpreted that as shrapnel damage.

13        Q.   And were there particular sites where you observed this shrapnel

14     damage on the bodies?

15        A.   Do you mean grave-sites?

16        Q.   Yes.

17        A.   Yes.  We only saw that in Glogova, one of the Glogova graves.  A

18     number in Zeleni Jadar, and there were also -- we also found shrapnel in

19     Paklenik Cave.

20        Q.   And that's Zeleni Jadar 6; is that correct?

21        A.   Yes, yes.  But in none of the other sites, Kozluk, Ravnice,

22     Lazete, no shrapnel at all in any of these sites.

23        Q.   My second question relates to something that you wrote in your

24     2000 Srebrenica report.  I don't need to bring it up, but at page 12 of

25     that report you talked about the devastating effect that was caused by

Page 22701

 1     the cavitation effect.  Can you explain what the cavitation effect is?

 2        A.   Well, what that means is that normally a low-power bullet will

 3     cause damage just by simply the physical hole that it produces in tissue.

 4     So it's just the physical hole of the bullet going through and if that

 5     happens to go through the heart or the brain, it causes damage just in

 6     that track.  With high-velocity weapons, such as were used here, these

 7     bullets travelled at -- with tremendous amount of energy in them and when

 8     they hit something solid in the body they are slowed down greatly and

 9     they give off a tremendous amount of energy to the tissue round about.

10     So not only do you get the physical hole where the bullet is going

11     through but you get this huge release of energy into the tissues round

12     about.  It causes disruption of the immediate tissues round about and

13     that is called cavitation.

14        Q.   Does cavitation also damage bones or only the --

15        A.   Yes, it will have the same effect on bones as on the other

16     tissues.

17        Q.   I'd like to take you now --

18             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Yes, now you can proceed.

19             MR. MITCHELL:  Thank you.

20        Q.   Dr. Clark, I'd like to ask you just a few questions about your

21     Paklenik Cave findings.

22             MR. MITCHELL:  If I can bring up the report with 65 ter number

23     11135.  I think it was P4106.  And if we can go to page 11 in both

24     English and B/C/S, I believe.  Sorry, if we can find the section in the

25     B/C/S with the header "Cause of Death" --

Page 22702

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Probably next page.

 2             MR. MITCHELL:

 3        Q.   And, Dr. Clark, can you briefly explain your findings as to the

 4     cause of death for the 73 men who you examined from this site.

 5        A.   Well, we give the cause of death as listed there.  The largest

 6     number, that's 27, we give the cause of death as gun-shot injury to the

 7     trunk.  Then 19 as gun-shot injury to the head.  Then gun-shot injuries

 8     which really covered more than one part of the body, it was in six.

 9     Gun-shot injury to the limbs was two.  And head injury, which is either

10     gun-shot that -- which really couldn't prove too much or was blunt force

11     injury and then a small number.  And then 15 was -- were unascertained,

12     we could not determine the cause of death in these people.

13        Q.   Okay.  If I can now bring up P4107, that's your supplementary

14     report for the Paklenik Cave site.  It was 65 ter 11136.

15             Doctor, can you explain what the supplementary report is and how

16     it relates to the findings about cause of death in the main Paklenik Cave

17     report that we just looked at.

18        A.   Yes.  The background to this is that in the mortuary we were

19     dealing with whole bodies -- some whole bodies.  But there were also

20     large numbers of small parts of bodies.  We looked at all these in turn,

21     but we neither had the facilities, the time, or the space to try and

22     match up body parts to larger parts of bodies.  So we might have dealt

23     with a whole body missing the head and in a separate area there was a

24     skull, but we really did not have the facilities to try and match these

25     cases up.  And we gave our causes of death on that basis.

Page 22703

 1             After our work, the bodies were handed over to the

 2     Bosnian Commission for Missing Persons, whose main work was to try and

 3     identify bodies as much as possible.  They then could take quite a lot of

 4     time over these remains, and that was a specific role, and they were able

 5     to then see that that isolated skull there we think belongs to that rest

 6     of that body there.  Or that lower leg there we think belongs to that.

 7     That was brought to my attention.  I looked at all these in turn and went

 8     over it with them and agreed with the matching --

 9        Q.   If I could stop you there for one second.

10             MR. MITCHELL:  If we can go over to the second page of this

11     report.

12        Q.   And then, Doctor, if you could keep explaining maybe with

13     reference to the chart that we will see on the second page of this

14     report.

15        A.   So having been able to now bring a skull and associate it with

16     the rest of the body -- and it may have been the case that the rest of

17     the body when we looked at initially had no gun-shot injuries and we

18     called it unascertained as the cause of death, now the skull being

19     attached to that body, the skull with the gun-shot injury, we were able

20     now to see that this person died from a gun-shot injury.  And that's what

21     I've tabulated in that page there, where we've associated the cases up.

22        Q.   What about the first body part or the first body there,

23     PK/020B --

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   -- is that different from the other cases in any way?

Page 22704

 1        A.   Yes, that was different and I was going to come on to that.  That

 2     is something I've done myself when I was reviewing all the cases for the

 3     report.  This is long since -- after the mortuary operations have

 4     finished, reviewing, going through all the files, I came across this case

 5     which was carried out by another pathologist.  He had given the cause of

 6     death as unascertained.  I looked at the primary evidence in his

 7     description of the report and in fact describes a bullet-hole in one of

 8     the ribs.  And I've taken it upon myself to now say that that was the

 9     cause of death.  It is the only case I did that for, but I thought that

10     was justified because he actually had described the bullet-hole in the

11     chest but for some reason had given the cause of death as unascertained.

12     Not quite sure why he did that, but that is what that refers to.

13        Q.   Thank you, Doctor.  I have no further questions at this stage.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Mitchell.

15             Mr. Karadzic.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, good day.  Good

17     afternoon.

18                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

19        Q.   [Interpretation] First of all, I would like to express my

20     gratitude for meeting with the Defence.  That was kind.  And I hope that

21     that will help us to complete this cross-examination in a pleasant manner

22     and without any problems and I would like to thank you once again.

23             I would like us to confirm as briefly as possible some of the

24     things that we agreed on during the interview.  Right now in front of me

25     I have your report from 1999 of graves from Srebrenica.  And on page 3

Page 22705

 1     the limitations of pathological evidence.  And I wanted to ask you, from

 2     the point of view of a pathologist, the main purpose of an autopsy was to

 3     examine bodies in order to establish possible injuries and where possible

 4     determine the cause of death.  And then you speak about the period of

 5     time the body was in the ground and so on and so forth.

 6             Do we agree or not that other than what was said here in the

 7     first sentence, a pathologist would not be able to determine with

 8     certainty the manner of death, the time of death, the time of burial, the

 9     time that the body spent from the time of death to the time of burial,

10     and also the distance from which shots were fired?

11        A.   There's a lot of questions in that.  I think I could answer it by

12     summarising that you're right that from bodies from a mass grave like

13     this I was not able to say that these were people who died three years

14     beforehand, four years beforehand, five years beforehand.  I could tell

15     that they had clearly been dead for some time because the bodies were

16     decomposed, but it's difficult to be much more specific than that.  They

17     could have been -- even the bodies from the one grave could have been

18     dead for different periods of time.  That's a possibility.

19             I'm trying to remember the other questions.  They were -- yeah,

20     the manner of death is not a phrase that I use.  I always think the

21     manner of death is for courts to decide.  I determine the cause of death,

22     whether this is gun-shot or a head injury or whatever.  How that came to

23     be I think is for other people to judge.  So we talk about cause of

24     death.

25             We dealt with time of burial.

Page 22706

 1             And the last point you raise, which is slightly different but

 2     I'll answer it anyway, the distance from which shots were fired.  Yes,

 3     that is very -- that was very difficult for us in decomposed bodies.  The

 4     normal situation in a normal fresh body, if you like, is that we

 5     determined distance of fire because of marks, soot or flame or whatever,

 6     on the skin.  Of course we have no skin or tissues in these bodies so it

 7     becomes impossible to say whether these shots were fired from 2 feet or

 8     200 feet.  I think that answers most of your questions.

 9        Q.   Thank you, Dr. Clark.  You are trying to say, isn't it right,

10     that without soft tissue it's not possible to determine the reaction,

11     vital reaction, to an injury and to establish whether the injury was

12     caused before or after death?

13        A.   Yes, exactly.  As you will know yourself, that signs of an injury

14     to a body are usually swelling, redness, bleeding.  That indicates that

15     something has occurred in life.  That is in soft tissues.  When these

16     soft tissues are missing, then that evidence is gone.  So really all

17     we're basing our -- the examination was largely based on bones.  Now,

18     bones don't bleed, bones don't swell, bones don't go red, certainly not

19     initially, so it -- we had -- we didn't have that advantage of the soft

20     tissues to tell us about whether they had occurred before or after death.

21     But I think we've probably covered that issue already.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Yesterday we established during the interview that

23     you had certain information from investigators who had looked at the

24     bodies before they reached the mortuary.  And we established that you did

25     not have sufficient information, you had the elementary facts, and would

Page 22707

 1     you agree that you were not informed, first of all, about the combat that

 2     lasted for 44 months and about the possibility of death in combat from

 3     April 1992 to July 1995.  Is that correct?

 4        A.   I wasn't aware of that specific fact.  You're correct in that we

 5     had limited information -- we were provided with limited information

 6     about the bodies in the grave.  That does have its advantage in that we

 7     can look at the findings objectively and not be biased by what we think

 8     we should be finding.  So some extent, really, all we knew was that these

 9     were bodies thought to be in graves, thought to be related to the

10     Srebrenica incident.  We were given little detail other than that.

11             If it's put to me:  Could all these bodies have been related to a

12     massacre from Srebrenica at one period of time, I would say yes.

13     Equally, if it's put to me that at least some of these bodies could have

14     been from an earlier incident, put into the same grave, I cannot

15     completely exclude that.  Hopefully that answers that question.

16             Just to go back to the -- you said that the investigators had

17     seen the bodies before they reached the mortuary.  I'm not sure how

18     much -- how true that is.  The investigators would have been at the

19     grave-site, but they certainly would not have made any detailed

20     examination of the bodies at all.

21        Q.   I agree with that, absolutely.  But you -- they saw the

22     distribution of bodies, the grave.  They were present during the

23     investigative operations that preceded the pathologist's work, your work,

24     in the mortuary; is that correct?

25        A.   I'm sorry, the investigators saw the distribution of the bodies.

Page 22708

 1     I'm not entirely sure what the question ... or do you think that I saw

 2     the distribution of the bodies in the -- I did not.

 3        Q.   Yes, yes.  Perhaps I wasn't clear.  You were not present during

 4     the exhumation; that was attended by the investigators, and some of the

 5     things that they knew, they informed you about.  Is that correct?

 6        A.   Occasionally I did visit the exhumation site just on a -- for a

 7     brief period to see it.  But I didn't look at the bodies in any great

 8     detail there and I was not given particularly detailed information by any

 9     investigators at that time.

10        Q.   Thank you.  You were thus not informed about combat continuing

11     there for 44 months, but you were proceeding on the assumption that all

12     the casualties were related to events from July 1995; is that correct?

13        A.   I think that's fair, yes.  I was not informed about combats prior

14     to that incident.

15        Q.   Thank you.  And your hosts didn't inform you about our legal

16     obligations regarding the "asanacija," the clearing of terrain, after

17     every battle.  In English I think the term is "mopping-up."  It's

18     clearing the terrain from human and animal remains whereby these remains

19     are buried in separate locations.  Nobody informed you about this being

20     one of the obligations throughout the whole war; is that right?

21        A.   That's right.  I didn't -- I wasn't aware of that, no.

22        Q.   Thank you.  And nobody asked you to try to tell the difference

23     between people who had died during the 44 months before July 1995 and

24     those who died in July 1995; is that right?

25        A.   That's right, yes.

Page 22709

 1        Q.   And also the casualties from July 1995, regarding those

 2     casualties you were not asked to try to establish the difference in the

 3     cause of death in terms of whether this was an execution or whether the

 4     person had been killed in battle?

 5        A.   That question has been put to me in the courts and has been

 6     covered in previous testimonies about -- the question whether these

 7     people could have been killed in battle.  In short, it is possible that

 8     some -- some of these victims could have been killed in such a situation

 9     in a battle, if by "battle" we're meaning two sets of men firing at each

10     other with weapons, that is entirely possible.

11        Q.   Thank you.  And ligatures are something that rule out that

12     possibility and you noticed that there were people who had their hands

13     tied or who were tied together, which would rule out the context of a

14     battle?

15        A.   Yes, this -- these were some of the factors.  It's got a number

16     of factors that would go against the idea of combat casualties.

17     Certainly it's difficult to believe that people who had their hands tied

18     together would be soldiers firing.  We found a substantial number of

19     people with blindfolds in a number of the grave-sites, two grave-sites in

20     particular.  So these were certainly two factors which went against a

21     combat situation.  There were others which we can go into if you wish.

22        Q.   Thank you.  I hope that we will get to that.  However, in the

23     course of the interview you agreed that it was difficult to understand

24     why somebody whose hands were not tied but did have a blindfold would not

25     pull down the blindfold, why they would still keep the blindfold on.  Is

Page 22710

 1     that right?

 2        A.   Physically it would have been possible to -- if their hands were

 3     not tied to pull the blindfold down.  There may have been other pressure

 4     put on them not to do so, of course.

 5        Q.   Did your hosts inform you about the custom of Islamic fighters to

 6     wear a cotton band around their head as a symbol of their devotion to the

 7     faith and God, and we do have film footage of that and it's already been

 8     admitted.  If we have time, we will try to show that, showing that many

 9     of the fighters did have such a band, ribbon, tied around their head even

10     at the time of death?

11        A.   That has never been put to me beforehand, before yesterday.  It

12     has to be said against that these blindfolds, I still call them

13     blindfolds, the vast majority were still around people's eyes.  They were

14     remarkably similar from person to person, both in material, how they were

15     tied, and in their size.  And in a substantial number of them, the

16     bullet-hole -- there were actually bullet-holes going through the

17     blindfold, which clearly meant that -- clearly meant that they were

18     wearing the blindfold when a shot entered the head round about the region

19     of the eyes.

20        Q.   If I received a correct translation, did you say a large number

21     or a number of?  From what I can remember from your findings is that the

22     hole in the fabric did correspond to a wound in the eye and that this did

23     not really occur too often, that there were only a few such cases.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can see that Mr. Mitchell is on

25     his feet.

Page 22711

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Before you answer, Dr. Clark.

 2             Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

 3             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, my recollection of that footage

 4     which I believe we're talking about, the footage that was shown to

 5     Dr. Lawrence, wasn't admitted.  There was a question mark over its

 6     provenance, so I'm not sure if Mr. Karadzic was mistaken or he wished to

 7     show it to this witness.  But I just wanted to make that clear.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  We'll leave it to the accused.

 9             Yes, where were we?  Do you remember the question or shall I --

10             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  No, no, I was --

11             JUDGE KWON:  -- yes, please.

12             THE WITNESS:  -- about to answer it.

13             I can't remember the exact numbers, but it was probably within

14     single figures.  It was probably less than 10 or 12 that -- in which the

15     bullet was actually through the blindfold, the bullet-hole in the

16     blindfold.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Thank you.  A good part of the dilemmas, would you agree with me,

19     while making the conclusions were the result of the restricted nature of

20     the assumptions, assumptions that all the victims were from July 1995 and

21     would you agree that these assumptions make it difficult to reach

22     conclusions about the different degrees of putrefaction, degradation of

23     the bodies, as well as other matters that the pathologists had a hard

24     time fitting in?

25        A.   Yes, I would agree that there was the general assumption that

Page 22712

 1     these bodies all related to the same incidents.  If you're putting it to

 2     me now - and it's never been put to me before - that at least some of

 3     these bodies could have been from other incidents prior to Srebrenica,

 4     that is possible.  We were basing the fact that different bodies in the

 5     same grave showed different levels of decomposition on the fact that --

 6     local factors in the grave.  Perhaps one was near a much wetter part of

 7     the grave, others were more compacted together in the centre of the

 8     grave, matters like that, we -- I was thinking that was probably the

 9     explanation.  And that may be true, that may be the answer.  But I'm

10     willing to accept that an alternative possibility for some of them could

11     be that they were put in a grave at a different time or they were from a

12     different period of time.

13        Q.   Thank you.  And had the hosts correctly informed you about the

14     44 months of combat, it would have been easier for the pathologists to

15     resolve all these dilemmas.  Would you agree?

16        A.   I would have still -- it wouldn't have solved it because I would

17     have remained that that was a possibility but was not necessarily the

18     true answer.

19        Q.   Thank you.  We also agreed during the interview that you were not

20     informed about the religious and cultural features of burial such as that

21     the Muslims do not bury their dead in a casket but wrap them in cotton,

22     if possible white, if not whatever is available.  Because there was some

23     cases where a body in a grave was actually wrapped in some kind of

24     shroud, fabric.  Is that correct?

25        A.   There were -- well, it's not correct because there were not, in

Page 22713

 1     fact, any of the bodies from the Srebrenica sites which were wrapped in

 2     blankets or anything.  You're correct that during -- in 1999 we did find

 3     bodies wrapped in blankets, but that was from the -- from Prijedor,

 4     Prijedor area, and was not in the Srebrenica sites.  So there were --

 5     none of the bodies from the Srebrenica sites were wrapped in any

 6     wrappings.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Mitchell, I noted that you were on foot.  You

 8     wanted the reference for this --

 9             MR. MITCHELL:  I did, Mr. President, but --

10             JUDGE KWON:  That has been clarified --

11             MR. MITCHELL:  -- I think the witness has dealt with that

12     adequately.  Thank you.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Unfortunately I was

15     guided by the first notification, so I prepared all 11 reports by

16     Dr. Clark that the Prosecution referred to -- actually, each paper that

17     he did.  So I also prepared the reports on Prijedor and Sanski Most,

18     which now is actually superfluous.  So I apologise about the confusion

19     about the locations.  I agree that this could have happened over there in

20     the Krajina.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Speaking about the post mortem skeletal changes, fractures, and

23     so on, you took into account that many of those post mortem injuries and

24     changes could have been caused because of the weight of the body, the

25     weight of other bodies, the markings caused by machinery and so on and so

Page 22714

 1     forth.  And if now we took as a possibility that during asanation certain

 2     graveyards were topped up rather than new ones being dug, would that

 3     digging up and filling up of graves in a subsequent asanation also

 4     contribute to fractures of older skeletons?

 5        A.   Yes, that could apply.  I mean very much we lent on the side of

 6     non-gun-shot injuries being post mortem injuries.  We went that side

 7     rather than trying to interpret fractures as having occurred in life.

 8     That probably meant that we left -- that we missed some genuine

 9     fractures, but we thought it safer to err on the post mortem side.  So

10     you're correct that re-opening a grave would be one way of damaging

11     skeletons or damaging bodies already in a grave.

12        Q.   Thank you.  I think that we also agreed that in a large number of

13     cases it was not possible to establish beyond a reasonable doubt from the

14     point of view of a pathologist whether the death was the result of an

15     execution.  Is that correct?

16        A.   It depends what you mean by "execution."  Some people would

17     regard execution as a person being shot from close range, typically the

18     back of the head or the side of the head.  That would be one

19     interpretation of "execution."  I would argue that a group of men at some

20     distance away, many feet away, being shot at could equally be execution.

21     And certainly some of the findings -- well, a lot of the findings from

22     these grave-sites could fit with that situation.  We did find a number of

23     bodies in which the -- really the only finding was a single gun-shot

24     injury to the back of the head.  That would certainly -- was quite

25     suggestive of a close-range shot.  But as I say that I think of the

Page 22715

 1     situation of a group of men who are not free and who are being fired at

 2     from a distance could explain a lot of findings in a lot of the other

 3     bodies.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] ERN 284009284 [as interpreted].

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   This is your report from 1999.  I've just seen on that page that

 8     you talk about finding a large number of layers of clothing, three pairs

 9     of trousers, three coats, for example, on some of the bodies.  Some --

10     there were some cases that in some graves there were people who were

11     dressed in several layers of clothing.  Is that correct?

12        A.   That's correct.  I don't recall it being a large number of

13     people, but certainly there were some bodies with a remarkable amount of

14     clothing on them.

15        Q.   Thank you.  To the best of your recollection - and you confirmed

16     that in the interview - the month of July in our region is very, very

17     hot; right?

18        A.   Yes, yes, I've experienced it.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Did your hosts also inform you of the custom to mark

20     soldiers as protection against friendly fire with an armband or a band

21     worn around the leg?

22        A.   No, I was not aware of that.

23        Q.   In almost all of your findings on some people IDs, money,

24     valuables, watches, gold jewellery were found, whereas nothing was found

25     on the bodies that were tied, for instance.  Did you notice that

Page 22716

 1     distinction?

 2        A.   It's true that we found on quite a number of people possessions

 3     as you've listed.  Certainly by no means all of them and large numbers of

 4     people had no possessions.  I think you're referring to the bodies that

 5     were tied as being one of the -- in the grave-site in Glogova which there

 6     were 12 men who were tied together and who had absolutely no possessions

 7     at all.  Well, that was -- all I can say is that they didn't have any

 8     possessions.  Some people had some possessions and who weren't in that

 9     grave and some people didn't have anything at all.  I don't know what to

10     read into that.  So in other words the people -- the bodies in the

11     Glogova grave L were not the only bodies in all of these graves to have

12     no possessions.

13        Q.   Thank you, Doctor.  But we have a lot of information and we've

14     heard a lot of testimony, especially from victims, that a person who had

15     been previously captured would have all his identification papers and

16     possessions taken away from them.  That is customary even during peace

17     time.  In some cases, razors and lighters and watches were found.  Is

18     that right?

19        A.   I'm not particularly aware of that and I don't really see it's my

20     place to comment on that side of things.  As I say, I wasn't aware that

21     all possessions were taken away from people, but I'm willing to

22     believe that -- if that's put to me, I'm willing to accept that.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Now I would like to touch upon another topic.  The

24     question that you explained to us kindly with those ninth parts, 11 and

25     nine-ninths [as interpreted] of the volume of the body.  Would you also

Page 22717

 1     explain to the Trial Chamber how much of the body is taken up by

 2     one-ninth in a human?

 3        A.   Yes, I wasn't entirely sure what you were meaning initially, but

 4     I know now.  This is something that we discussed yesterday.  It was

 5     really to get -- it's how people estimate the particular size of a part

 6     of the body and it's typically used in people who've suffered burns to

 7     estimate what size of the -- what part of the body -- extent of the body

 8     has been burnt.  It's called the rule of nines.  It divides the body into

 9     11 nine per cents.  And it becomes a way to estimate.

10             To go through it, the head is taken as 9 per cent.  Each arm is

11     taken as 9 per cent.  The front of the trunk is taken as two nines.  The

12     back is taken as two nines.  And each leg is taken as two nines.  And if

13     you total all that, it comes to 99 per cent.  It's a means of estimating

14     the extent of burning or other damage to the surface of the body.  I

15     think what you can see from that is the largest body surface is the

16     trunk, which is from the neck to the pelvis, and then the next largest

17     areas are the legs, in body surface.

18        Q.   Thank you, Doctor.  It's not only with burn victims.  We could

19     apply the same rule - and I believe you applied it - to determine the

20     distribution of gun-shot wounds on the bodies, starting with the body,

21     the trunk, arms and legs, and then also the side from which the shot

22     came; correct?

23        A.   Yes, that's right.  I think it's fair to say that if -- if

24     somebody -- if a person's being fired at randomly, then the greatest

25     likelihood of what part of the body is being struck will be the trunk

Page 22718

 1     because it's the biggest part of the body and then after that would be

 2     the legs because, again, that's a sizeable part of the body.  Now, in

 3     some of the cases that we did -- in fact, a substantial number of cases

 4     that we did, the gun-shots were fairly evenly distributed around the body

 5     in that fashion.  In some grave-sites, however, it was not and that the

 6     bulk of the shots appeared to be to the trunk and there were relatively

 7     few to the legs, which goes against a sort of random distribution.  So

 8     that's one observation.

 9             You talked about the direction of fire.  This is -- really means

10     the relative position of the firer and the victim.  We can -- although

11     it's quite difficult in skeletonised bodies, we can tell to some extent

12     because when a bullet goes through a bone, the entrance side has a

13     characteristic pattern and the exit when it comes out the other side of

14     the body has another characteristic pattern and this is best seen in the

15     skull.  So by and large, for the majority of cases we were able to see if

16     somebody had a gun-shot injury in the head, we could tell whether this

17     was coming from behind them or from the side or from the front.  It

18     became more difficult to see these things in the trunk, just because of

19     the nature of the bones, and equally it was quite difficult to see it in

20     the limbs, the arms and the legs.

21             From all of that and with these limitations, it has to be said

22     that the majority of shots to these people did come from behind,

23     particularly the head injuries, the majority were shots from behind.

24        Q.   Thank you.  We agreed yesterday that if one party is running away

25     from the other, it is more likely they will be hit in the back; right?

Page 22719

 1        A.   Yes.  Yes, that's right.

 2        Q.   What you just said about the hierarchy of body parts, in Kozluk

 3     you found exactly the same, 23 per cent in the head, 37 in the trunk,

 4     then 11 per cent were hit in the legs, et cetera.  Trunk, legs, head,

 5     arms, does that correspond to random fire?  Does the distribution of

 6     wounds, in other words, correspond to a pattern of random fire?

 7        A.   Yes, it probably -- it would do.  The head is probably

 8     over-representative -- over-represented, but the trunk and the legs would

 9     generally match random fire.

10        Q.   Here in one paragraph you say that you were surprised about the

11     legs to some extent, that there were more shot in the legs than in the

12     head, 27 per cent compared to 23.  Correct?  It's the second paragraph

13     below the table.

14        A.   Yes, yes.  Yes.

15        Q.   Thank you.  The direction from which the bullet came is easier to

16     determine with the wound in the head than in other body parts; correct?

17        A.   That's true, yes.

18        Q.   Is it possible to determine the distance from which the shot came

19     with any certainty?

20        A.   No, and I've already explained that, that it was virtually

21     impossible for us to say whether a shot had been fired from very close

22     range or from a hundred metres away.

23        Q.   Thank you.  I noticed - and we discussed it yesterday during the

24     interview - that your pathologists had difficulty explaining why there

25     was a considerable number of bullets still in some bodies, whereas the

Page 22720

 1     weapons concerned had a high-velocity projectile and they were rather

 2     restricted by the assumption that all the bodies were related to

 3     July 1995 and that the bullets were fired at close range.  So they

 4     concluded that perhaps the bullet had first gone through another body.

 5     If the shot came from more than 300 metres, is the likelihood the bullet

 6     would remain in the body higher than if the distance was smaller?

 7        A.   Again, I think there's a mixture of comments and questions there.

 8     What we found in quite a lot of the bodies was fragmented bullets, which

 9     is what you would expect if a bullet hits the body, it hits bone or

10     something else, and breaks up.  That's a normal reaction to the bullet.

11     And we indeed found that -- these bullet fragments in a large number of

12     people.  In a smaller proportion of people, sometimes in addition to the

13     fragments, we found a whole bullet, solid bullet, completely undamaged.

14     Now, normally a bullet, a high-velocity bullet, if it doesn't strike

15     bone, it will go in one side of the body and out the other undamaged.

16             So you're right, it was a little unusual to find completely

17     intact bullets in some of these bodies.  The explanation could be that

18     they were shot from a long distance away, a distance whereby this bullet

19     was losing its energy and once it got into the body really didn't have

20     the power to go much further.  We're talking about hundreds of metres for

21     that.

22             The other possibility is that the bullet was fired from a closer

23     range, but before it entered that victim it had lost a lot of its energy

24     through something else and so just stayed in the body.  And that could

25     have been because it had been fired, gone through another person, perhaps

Page 22721

 1     through the soft tissue of another person, lost a bit of its energy, and

 2     not gone much further.  It's difficult to know just why that would have

 3     occurred.  It didn't have to go through another person.  It could have

 4     gone through other tissues or other material perhaps and lost some of its

 5     energy there before entering that body.

 6             Just because a bullet was found with a body doesn't always

 7     mean -- did not always mean that it was always associated with that body.

 8     It may have been in the grave the bullets could move, particularly a

 9     whole body -- a whole bullet might fall from one body to another.  And

10     that's a possibility.  It probably didn't occur a great deal of time, but

11     that would be a possibility.

12             So I don't really know the full explanation why we got intact

13     bullets in some bodies, but there are possible explanations.

14        Q.   Thank you, Dr. Clark.  If we now take into account this segment

15     of the report about Kozluk concerning distribution, where distribution is

16     consistent with random fire with many hits in the legs, most of them in

17     the trunk but in second place are the legs, and also the numerous cases

18     where whole bullets were still found in the body even if they had gone

19     through another body before that which would reduce their velocity, could

20     we exclude then the possibility that the victims got killed by fire from

21     a distance higher than 300 metres or does that remain a possibility?

22        A.   No, I think that that does remain a possibility.  I wouldn't like

23     to be too precise about 300 metres, it's of that order, but that would

24     certainly have to be a possibility, yes.

25        Q.   Thank you.  In several cases you found prior injuries.  First of

Page 22722

 1     all, there were many fractures that were very old and completely healed

 2     and there were also injuries very close to the time of death, had been

 3     treated by immobilisation and other measures.  Is that correct?

 4        A.   If we take that in turn, you're correct that in a number of

 5     bodies that we did find old fractures, broken arms, broken legs, clearly

 6     from probably years earlier, completely healed, nothing to do with the

 7     death.  As to more recent injuries, I can recall only two cases, in fact,

 8     in which we found evidence of an injury which had been bandaged and

 9     clearly -- it was a gun-shot injury, both cases were in the legs, the leg

10     had been bandaged and splinted, which clearly indicated an injury in the

11     days, hours, days prior to death.  But I think that was only two cases

12     and they were both from, I think, Nova Kasaba.  So it certainly was not a

13     common feature at all to find people with recent injuries, either recent

14     healing injuries or bandaged injuries or whatever.  The vast majority of

15     people had shots which appeared to have killed them with no indication at

16     all of injuries in the few days prior to that.

17        Q.   Thank you.  In these two cases we must conclude that victims had

18     been exposed to some kind of fire sometime before death, and in that

19     interval somebody treated the wounds?

20        A.   Yes, that's correct, yes.

21        Q.   Is the number of those old fractures unusual for this population?

22        A.   Probably not.  I'm sure if you looked at any population of

23     different ages you would find quite a lot of people who had old injuries,

24     old fractures.  So I wouldn't have thought that this was anything

25     particularly special.  We're talking about the very old injuries, the old

Page 22723

 1     fractures.

 2        Q.   Would a fracture two or three years old qualify as old?

 3        A.   Yes.  I would qualify an old fracture as one which is healed and

 4     the two ends of bone have come together again and the person can walk and

 5     do everything as normal.

 6        Q.   Do you agree that the callus, which is the bone mass that heals,

 7     does not have a specific appearance and it cannot be determined whether

 8     the bone was fractured by explosion, projectile, or in another way?

 9        A.   Yes, just to clarify, callus refers to the healing process of a

10     bone.  If you fracture a bone in life, cells and fluid and tissues build

11     up round about it over the following days and weeks and gradually these

12     tissues become harder and form new bone and that's called callus and

13     that's visible.  As the process goes on further, then that disappears and

14     all you're left with is a bone which perhaps has a slight angle to it to

15     indicate an old fracture.  So that's what callus here is.  Whether

16     that -- for an old fracture it's difficult to say what caused it, whether

17     it was a road accident or a fall or what would be very difficult to say.

18        Q.   But an old war injury is also not to be excluded, an injury two

19     or three years old, without the soft tissue you cannot rule that

20     possibility out; right?

21        A.   If it's an old war injury like an old bullet injury, then the

22     fracture is likely to be much more irregular because there would be more

23     damage to the bone.  It would still be difficult to distinguish that

24     from, say, a bad fracture caused in a road accident or other -- or some

25     other form of accident.  So it's possible that some of the quite large,

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 1     old fractures could have been from war injuries, but these were not at

 2     all common.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  In Nova Kasaba 4, 19; 6, two; and in 7, one; and then

 4     8, only part of a body -- actually, you've already answered that.  Do you

 5     know that there was fierce fighting near Nova Kasaba.  Six times or so it

 6     fell into the hands of either party.  Would that have helped you, if you

 7     would know that Nova Kasaba was of special strategic importance for both

 8     sides and that there was quite a bit of fighting involved therefore?

 9        A.   I didn't know that.  I don't think it would have been of any

10     difference to our findings.  We just record the findings.  If it was put

11     to me that could these deaths have occurred three months beforehand for

12     the Srebrenica, I would say yes.  If it was put to me alternatively,

13     could these all have been from -- related to the Srebrenica massacre, I

14     would say equally, yes, they could be.  So I don't think if we knew that

15     beforehand would have made any difference in the slightest.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I see now the hour,

17     Your Excellencies.  Do we have to finish for today?

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, it has rather been a long day for our first day

19     of the year.  If you have more to continue, then we'll continue tomorrow

20     morning.  We'll adjourn for today.

21                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

22             JUDGE KWON:  We'll resume tomorrow morning at 9.00.

23                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.44 p.m.,

24                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 11th day of

25                           January, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.