1 Thursday, 26 January 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everyone.
7 Yes, Mr. Robinson.
8 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, good morning, Mr. President. I would like to
9 introduce Ms. Nora Fredstie, from Norway, who is one of our legal interns
10 who will be joining us this morning. Thank you.
11 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
12 Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
13 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you. Good morning, Your Honours, everyone.
14 WITNESS: TOMASZ BLASZCZYK [Resumed]
15 Further Examination by Mr. Nicholls: [Continued]
16 Q. Good morning, Mr. Blaszczyk.
17 A. Good morning.
18 Q. I would like to quickly finish off with the video we were
19 watching, Mr. Pirocanac's raw footage. We stopped yesterday at 56:23.
20 There are about six more minutes, not much but we will just finish it
22 MR. NICHOLLS: If we could start playing, please.
23 [Video-clip played]
24 MR. NICHOLLS: We stopped at 57:08.1.
25 Q. Now, Mr. Blaszczyk, all I want to ask you is: Where are we now?
1 We just passed the stadium. We can see this mosque. When we left off
2 yesterday we saw an aerial view of Srebrenica. This photo corresponds to
3 B on page 74 of your map book -- of your road book, excuse me. Could you
4 just tell me where we are at this point, which direction are Mr. Petrovic
5 and Mr. Borovcanin travelling.
6 A. We are leaving -- Mr. Petrovic and Mr. Borovcanin, they are
7 leaving Srebrenica. They are heading towards Potocari and Bratunac. In
8 fact, they just passed the stadium in Srebrenica. They are on the edge
9 of Srebrenica. This settlement is called Vidikovac or Gostilj.
10 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you. Keep playing.
11 [Video-clip played]
12 MR. NICHOLLS:
13 Q. Stopping now at 59:13.3. It's a bit blurry, but we can see the
14 white barrier that says "UN" on it. Just to orient us, still heading now
15 from Srebrenica to Potocari, where are we right now?
16 A. We are right now in front of the UN DutchBat, and we passed
17 Potocari. We passed bus compound. We saw the bus compound on the
18 right-hand side. We saw the Feros building and now we are in front of UN
19 DutchBat, the main gate.
20 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you. We can play, please.
21 [Video-clip played]
22 MR. NICHOLLS: Stop, please.
23 Q. All right. This is just about at the end. Do you know where
24 this video is from? Do you remember this now?
25 A. According to Mr. Petrovic Pirocanac, it was recorded on the
1 Serbian side already this -- this footage, and I didn't find this
2 location. In fact, I didn't look for this location at all.
3 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you. Just for completeness, let's play to
4 the end. It's another minute or so, and then we'll have seen the entire
5 raw footage.
6 [Video-clip played]
7 MR. NICHOLLS: Stop. We can stop.
8 Thank you, Your Honours, that concludes this part of my direct.
9 I would tender the road book, 03931, and the CD presentation, the 360
10 interactive, which Mr. Blaszczyk has demonstrated, 03932.
11 JUDGE KWON: The last part of in the road book is mosque Azemina.
12 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE KWON: Have we heard about it?
14 MR. NICHOLLS: I didn't have him describe it. I stopped at the
15 location --
16 JUDGE KWON: What significance does it have? Is it one of the
17 cultural monuments listed in the indictment?
18 MR. NICHOLLS: It's not listed, Your Honours, in Schedule D.
19 However, the video shows that on the 14th of July, it was intact after
20 all the combat was over and afterwards it was destroyed. So I think --
21 JUDGE KWON: Uh-huh, now I understand. Thank you. Any
23 MR. ROBINSON: No, Mr. President.
24 JUDGE KWON: That will be all admitted.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 03931 will be Exhibit P4270,
1 and 65 ter 03932 will be Exhibit P4271.
2 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.
3 Q. Mr. Blaszczyk, I'd like to switch gears completely now and as
4 quickly, as briefly as we can, go over what you can tell us about the way
5 the so-called Drina Corps collection of VRS documents came into
6 possession of the OTP; okay?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Are you familiar with that process?
9 A. Yes, I am familiar.
10 Q. First of all, can you just describe what the Drina Corps
11 collection is and how large it is, what we mean when we say the
12 Drina Corps collection.
13 A. Drina Corps collection, Your Honour, this is archive of
14 Drina Corps. This document from archive from Drina Corps we call it
15 Drina Corps collection. The archive was seized by Serbian MUP and
16 members of MOD, I mean the Serbian RS MUP and the members of MOD of RS,
17 on the territory of Republika at that time, Serbia and Montenegro, and
18 the collection was handed over to the OTP on the 13 of December, 2004,
19 and arrive, in fact, the collection arrived to The Hague it was January
21 The collection containing about 350.000 pages of documents, as
22 far as I remember about 360 maps, and more than 3.500 -- about
23 3.500 photographs.
24 The document -- the documents from the collection are documents
25 from Drina Corps units from Drina Corps -- are documents from Drina Corps
1 and also documents from Drina Corps units.
2 Q. Thank you. And can you just tell us briefly how did the
3 Office of the Prosecutor first hear about this collection and that it was
4 going to be made available to us hopefully?
5 A. First we received this information from the liaison office from
6 The Hague, from Mr. Trifun Jovicic, that the collection was seized or
7 obtained by the members of MUP of RS and MOD on 9 December 2004. And on
8 our request, the collection was taken to the premises of RS MUP in
9 Banja Luka and kept over there. And then after few days, after some
10 negotiations or after some discussion with us, the collection was
11 transported to our field office in Banja Luka. It was on the 13 of
12 December 2004, and after checking or repacking the collection to other
13 boxes, the entire collection was taken first to Zagreb field office on
14 the 17 December 2004. At that time, at this time on this stage I was
15 present in Zagreb. I was waiting for the collection to arrive from
16 Banja Luka, and when the truck containing the documents arrived to
17 Banja Luka, we unloaded the truck. We repacked again the documents
18 from -- from one boxes to another boxes. I made a kind of initial review
19 of these documents, very rough, really, because it was -- as I said,
20 there were 350.000 pages, and we repacked to another 55 boxes and we sent
21 this collection to -- to The Hague. And the collection was processed in
22 The Hague starting from January 2005.
23 Q. Thank you. Let me just show you a few documents relating to
25 MR. NICHOLLS: Could I have 03372, please. That's the
1 65 ter number. While it's coming up I'll say this is a
2 Ministry of Defence document from the Republika Srpska dated
3 8 December 2004. It's signed by Milovan Stankovic.
4 JUDGE KWON: I was told nothing has been uploaded on that number.
5 MR. NICHOLLS: May I check, Your Honour? It's my mistake. It's
6 my mistake, Your Honour. I'm sorry. 03772.
7 Q. Now, we don't need to go through these documents in too much
8 detail, Mr. Blaszczyk, because I think they're fairly self-explanatory,
9 but can you just tell us what this is?
10 A. This is decision of Republika Srpska Ministry of Defence signed
11 by Minister of Defence Milovan Stankovic appointing the commission --
12 JUDGE KWON: Could you speak into the microphone for the benefit
13 of interpreters.
14 THE WITNESS: My apologies, Your Honour. This is document --
15 this is decision signed by Minister of Defence of RS Milovan Stankovic at
16 that time appointing the commission for taking over sealing and handing
17 over the archive material of the Army of Republika Srpska located in
18 Serbia and Montenegro. And this decision is -- this decision the -- the
19 members of the commission are listed.
20 MR. NICHOLLS: May I tender that, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
22 THE REGISTRAR: P4272, Your Honours.
23 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you. I'd like to bring up another document,
24 03773. This document is dated 8 December. It's from the General Staff
25 of the Army of Republika Srpska, order for an official trip. Can you
1 please -- same thing, Mr. Blaszczyk, tell us what this is and what it's
3 A. This is document signed by the head of Main Staff of VRS. It's
4 ordered for the commission -- the trip ordered for the commission in
5 charge of taking over and handing over the records of the
6 Army of Republika Srpska located in Serbia also the same people are
7 listed as the previous documents.
8 Q. Okay. These are preparations for obtaining the archive?
9 A. This is correct. The document is dated 8 December 2004, the day
10 before the -- the trip took place.
11 MR. NICHOLLS: May I tender that, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P4273, Your Honours.
14 MR. NICHOLLS: 03374, please, a similar document, this time from
15 the Republika Srpska Ministry of Defence. It's entitled "Approval of
16 official trip abroad."
17 Q. Same question, just if you could tell us briefly what this is
19 A. This is decision of approval of the official trip abroad for the
20 members of the commission appointed before by minister of defence.
21 MR. NICHOLLS: May I tender that, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE KWON: Exhibit P4274.
23 MR. NICHOLLS:
24 Q. Next document 03775, also from 8 December 2004. This one from
25 8 December 2004, RS General Staff.
1 What do we have here, Mr. Blaszczyk?
2 A. This is record of receipt of receiving of archive material. It
3 was -- in fact this, record was prepared on the 8th of December, 2004,
4 but it was signed by the members of the commission as the people who
5 received the material and signed by the member of Army of Serbia and
6 Montenegro who handed over this archive to this commission. And it was
7 signed on 9 December 2004.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MR. NICHOLLS: May I tender that, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE KWON: Yes. That will be admitted as Exhibit P4275.
11 MR. NICHOLLS: Now, if I could have, please, 03768. This is a
12 document from the Republika Srpska Ministry of the Interior again about
13 these archives.
14 Q. Could you just tell us a little bit about this report,
15 Mr. Blaszczyk, signed by Dragi Milosevic.
16 A. This is the report stated 10 January 1995, signed by
17 Dragi Milosevic. Dragi Milosevic at that time, as far as I remember, was
18 the head of criminal administration of RS MUP. He described in this
19 document -- or he put the information how -- how the archive was
20 received, how -- how they come to information about this archive and how
21 the archive was transported to -- to Banja Luka.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 MR. NICHOLLS: May I tender that, Your Honours?
24 JUDGE KWON: Yes. That will be admitted as Exhibit P4276.
25 MR. NICHOLLS:
1 Q. Now, just to make it clear, when these archives arrived in
2 Banja Luka, they were then transported by our staff from our field office
3 in Banja Luka to our field office in Zagreb, and that's where you joined
4 the process and took part in cataloguing and bringing the material back
5 to The Hague; is that right?
6 A. It's correct. The first material was taken to Banja Luka in --
7 in the cases or cages used by army. There were 16 boxes, big boxes, and
8 when the material was taken to our field office in -- in Banja Luka, we
9 repacked -- I mean my colleagues from the field office repacked the
10 documents to another boxes and it was sent to Zagreb on the
11 17 December 2004. I was present at this moment in Zagreb. I was waiting
12 for the material.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MR. NICHOLLS: Could I have 03769, please.
15 Q. Can you just tell us what this document is before we go through
16 the next few pages.
17 A. This is declaration of -- this is receipt signed by our -- our
18 investigator, field investigator, OTP investigator Finn Tollefsen. This
19 is receipt for the 16 boxes which were received from -- from minister of
20 defence and minister of interior containing the material -- that seized
21 material, the Drina Corps collection.
22 But I would like to explain something. On the bottom of this
23 page, my colleague from the field office he mentioned here that the boxes
24 were repacked into 24 cardboard boxes. In fact he made small mistake
25 because, in fact, the entire collection was repacked to -- into
1 23 cardboard boxes, and these 24 cardboard boxes contains another
2 material seized and also handed over by RS MUP to OTP but day after, on
3 the 14 December 2004.
4 Q. Okay. And that additional box and that additional seizure, did
5 it have anything to do with the Drina Corps collection?
6 A. No. This material handed over to the OTP on 14 December 2004,
7 this is totally different material not connected to Drina Corps
8 collection. This is material seized by RS MUP in one of the location in
9 Serbia, I believe in Bijeljina. Mostly there were tapes, video-tapes and
10 audiotapes --
11 Q. All right.
12 A. -- but not at all connected with Drina Corps.
13 Q. All right. Why were the big boxes received from the RS MUP
14 repacked into smaller cardboard boxes before going to Zagreb?
15 A. It was -- these big boxes they were boxes used for ammunition
16 for -- for keeping ammunition, weapon, and they were military boxes. We
17 decided to repack these boxes into cardboard boxes. Also big one,
18 unfortunately, in the -- in Banja Luka field office and this is why we
19 had to repack it again in Zagreb because it was -- this -- the material
20 was too heavy to keep them in these cardboard boxes.
21 Q. Can we go to the next page --
22 JUDGE KWON: What does that EOD or EOP means?
23 A. Explosive ordnance --
24 JUDGE KWON: Disposal.
25 THE WITNESS: Disposal, yes.
1 JUDGE KWON: I think, yes.
2 THE WITNESS: This means that the boxes were checked by UFOR team
3 whether there is -- there are no unexploded material planted in.
4 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
5 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honour. If we could go to the
6 next page quickly.
7 Q. What is this here?
8 A. This is confirmation signed by head of the office, our office in
9 Zagreb, Thomas Osorio at that time. And he's confirming here that on the
10 17th December 2004 the Zagreb office, ICTY office, received 24 cardboard
11 boxes from the ICTY office in Banja Luka, and it's also Thomas Osorio put
12 here information here that these boxes were inspected and repacked into
13 27 boxes.
14 Q. Twenty-seven or 57?
15 A. Sorry, 57.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 Could we go to the next page, please.
18 Same question, can you tell us what we see here as part of our
20 A. Yes, this is -- this is the record of how we repack the boxes,
21 the 20 -- in fact, 23 boxes which we received from -- from Banja Luka
22 field office containing the Drina Corps collection because, as I said
23 before, these 24 boxes contained at that time this -- another material
24 seized in other operation by RS MUP.
25 Q. Could we go to the next page and then the next page, please.
1 A. It's the second --
2 Q. Please go ahead.
3 A. Oh --
4 Q. If we go back a page, you can explain.
5 A. This is the second page of -- of the same document.
6 Q. Next page, please. Okay, this is a UN ICTY cargo manifest that's
7 got part of it redacted. Can you just tell us what this is and why the
8 one part was redacted out?
9 A. Yes, this is UN ICTY cargo manifest prepared for the person
10 who -- who transported this material to The Hague, and this redacted part
11 of this -- this -- this document, this is redacted because this UN ICTY
12 cargo manifest contains also another material not related to the
13 evidence, not related to the Drina Corps collection.
14 Q. Is it personal effects of the --
15 A. As well --
16 Q. -- staff member?
17 A. Yes, as well personal belongings.
18 Q. And finally, could we go to the next page. Can you just tell us
19 what this is and what the different signatures mean.
20 A. This -- this is packing list. Also here is the -- listed are the
21 boxes containing the Drina Corps collection and also these two additional
22 boxes containing another material seized by RS MUP. It was on the
23 left-hand side, on the bottom of this page we have the signature of the
24 head of the mission, and I see on the right-hand side this is signature
25 of the member of evidence unit here in The Hague. It means that member
1 of evidence unit received this material on the 4th of January, 2005.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. NICHOLLS: May I tender that, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P4277, Your Honours.
6 MR. NICHOLLS:
7 Q. Now, I want to ask you, just before we finish, did you show any
8 of these Drina Corps documents, documents seized in the Drina Corps
9 collection, which had signatures on them to persons who authenticated
10 their signatures, looking at the original and said, "Yes that's my
11 signature. I remember signing this piece of paper"?
12 A. Yes. Since 2005 we showed a lot of all of these documents, you
13 know, this collection, to many of our witnesses and few of them they
14 recognise, of course, their signature handwritings and even they could
15 remember the contents of the documents.
16 MR. NICHOLLS: Just as an example, I'd like to bring up
17 65 ter 02064. Your Honours, I had not notified this document to be used
18 with the witness. I have notified the Defence and spoken to them about
19 it. So I apologise for not having that listed and thank my friends.
20 JUDGE KWON: Please carry on.
21 MR. NICHOLLS:
22 Q. Now, this is a vehicle work log of -- with the names
23 Dusan Vucetic on it and Lieutenant-Colonel Vujadin Popovic from the
24 Drina Corps collection. It's several pages long, but just looking at
25 this cover page, can you tell us if you recall showing this to
1 Mr. Vucetic and what his reaction was?
2 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
4 MR. ROBINSON: I'm going to object to this testimony more as a
5 matter of principle. You may recall that in the Milosevic case there was
6 an Appeals Chamber decision on the admissibility of Prosecution
7 investigators' evidence in which they held that an investigator, like the
8 one we have testifying here, would not be allowed to testify to what
9 other witnesses had told them because it would circumvent Rule 92 bis.
10 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Do you mean to tender this document
11 through this witness or just are you trying to lay some foundation as to
12 the Drina Corps collection as a whole?
13 MR. NICHOLLS: Well, both, Your Honour. In fact, I would make an
14 offer of proof that Mr. Blaszczyk interviewed this person who
15 authenticated this document by saying, "Yes, that's my signature. That's
16 my name. That's my signature. I wrote on this document." I mean, I
17 think that's perfectly permissible. It is hearsay but it's not
18 circumventing Rule 92 bis for the investigator to say, "I received this
19 document through the RS MUP as part of the Drina Corps collection. I
20 brought it to a person who is named on document, who appears to have
21 written on the document, and they confirmed that, yes, they had written
22 on the document and that their signature was there."
23 JUDGE KWON: How many documents are you trying to tender in that
25 MR. NICHOLLS: Just this one.
1 JUDGE KWON: Do you have anything to add, Mr. Robinson?
2 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, I think this comes squarely within
3 the decision. The proper procedure would be for them to -- to tender
4 that witness's statement under Rule 92 bis or perhaps we would
5 cross-examine that witness if we felt that it was necessary. So while it
6 is -- I recognise that it's one document, it's not an earth-shattering
7 factual issue, but as a matter of principle, I think the Chamber should
8 follow the direction of the Appeals Chamber and not allow the witness to
9 circumvent Rule 92 bis.
10 JUDGE KWON: And I take it you are not challenging the
11 authenticity of this document.
12 MR. ROBINSON: That's correct.
13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. I'll consult my colleagues.
14 MR. NICHOLLS: If I could just add one point, Your Honours. It's
15 a little bit different. This is the interview. I'm not trying to tender
16 the interview. I'm not trying to enter the witness's entire statement or
17 information. It's one discrete point which goes directly to
19 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. I see the point, but ...
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber doesn't think that Mr. Blaszczyk is
22 going to summarise the evidence of the third party, just -- and admitting
23 this document is not in breach of the authority in the view of the
24 Chamber. We'll admit it.
25 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honours. That concludes my direct
2 JUDGE KWON: We'll give a number for that.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P4278, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE KWON: Thank you Mr. Nicholls.
5 Mr. Karadzic, do you have cross-examination for this witness?
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Excellency, though
7 I will try to be as short as possible.
8 Good morning, Your Excellencies. I wish a good morning to
10 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
11 Q. [Interpretation] And good morning to you, Mr. Blaszczyk.
12 A. Good morning.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please pull up in e-court
14 map number 6 from this binder that was admitted into evidence.
15 JUDGE KWON: You mean the map in the road book. Petrovic video.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, the Petrovic video.
17 JUDGE KWON: Do you have the page number, Mr. Karadzic?
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 0618-4127. But this map was dubbed
19 number 6.
20 JUDGE KWON: Page --
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Or my apologies, 73.
22 JUDGE KWON: Page 73.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Mr. Blaszczyk, can we agree that the Srebrenica-Bratunac road is
25 oriented more or less north/south, or south/north, to be more precise?
1 A. Yes, this is correct.
2 Q. Thank you. Was that mosque on this Vitlovac hill which is
3 elevation 553?
4 A. I marked this -- this mosque with number 21. Exactly where we
5 have 21 and this yellow circle with black dot in, this is the mosque, the
6 location of the mosque.
7 Q. Thank you. Then that would not be Vitlovac; correct?
8 A. This is Gostilj, Gostilj, and I know that the locals they are
9 calling this settlement Vidikovac.
10 Q. I see, thank you. We can agree, can we, that the sun -- or,
11 rather, the daylight moves from east via south towards the west. In
12 other words, east, south-east, south, south-west, west; correct?
13 A. Probably, yes. I'm not -- yes. Probably, yes.
14 Q. Even in Bosnia; right?
15 A. Yes, yes, yes.
16 Q. Now I would like you to take a look at this image on page 74. Do
17 you agree, Mr. Blaszczyk, that this mosque does not have a roof, or,
18 rather, a dome as is customary at this elevation? In other words, not
19 even in July was there a dome there or a roof.
20 A. This is correct. On this picture the mosque has no roof.
21 Q. And this is a still from that video; correct.
22 Fifty-seven minutes, 4 seconds; right?
23 A. Yes, Your Honour, this is a still from the video, Petrovic video,
24 on his way back from Zeleni Jadar, Srebrenica to Serbian territory. And
25 if I may point something also that I don't know whether anybody pay
1 attention, but when Mr. Petrovic together with Mr. Borocanac --
2 Borovcanin, sorry, they were driving to Srebrenica on the 14, and there
3 was discussion in the car. They discussed about the mosque. It was --
4 they discussed this mosque.
5 Q. Thank you. We can also agree that on the two visible sides of
6 this building we can see four windows on each side; correct?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. Thank you. Can we now have page 75, please. To me, this does
9 not appear to be the same building. The windows are different.
10 A. Your Honour, definitely it's the same building. I've been there
11 several times. I talked to the owner of the land where the mosque is
12 located and definitely this is the same building. This was only mosque
13 in this area at that time. I know quite well the history of this mosque.
14 I know that this is the first mosque built before the war - I don't
15 remember the year exactly - but built on the private land and I think
16 even paid by the private person. And the son of the man who -- whose
17 land is over there is still living in this house next to the mosque.
18 Q. Thank you. But would you agree, for instance, that on the
19 photograph on the right-hand side, even the one on the left-hand side, it
20 all looks a bit different? Now, if you look at the number of windows,
21 for instance, and the shot was from the right-hand side of the road, in
22 other words, Srebrenica-Bratunac, that's on the right side; correct, of
23 the road?
24 A. Your Honour, yes. This picture is not so very clear. You know,
25 it's not the best quality especially if we play -- this is not very best
1 quality. But I would like to point one -- one situation. That picture A
2 from the page 74, this is the edge of the stadium in Srebrenica, when we
3 are leaving Srebrenica, and I made the picture 1 from the page 75 almost
4 from the same location. Okay. The wall of the stadium is not visible
5 here but the picture is done almost in the same location.
6 And the second picture from the page 75 is done from the
7 direction of Potocari. It's -- it means from another side, from the
8 south -- from the north part of the road. But picture one from the south
9 part of the road. From the north, we have the picture number 2 on the
10 page 75. It may looks little bit different than the footage, the stills
11 from Petrovic video, because this is different direction, different
13 This is my explanation, but definitely it's the same mosque.
14 Q. Thank you. Now, please look at this. If you are on this
15 Srebrenica-Bratunac road, we see on page 74 two sides, two walls of the
16 building, and we can see the same wall -- walls from the same road. In
17 other words, the shot could not have been taken from the north-east. It
18 could have been done either from south-east or from north-west.
19 Now, can we take a look at page 76, please.
20 And may I ask you who was your guide here? Who directed you
21 which way to go?
22 A. I was a guide for myself. I was the guide there. I had no
23 guide. I had interpreter with me, but that's it. It was me who decided
24 where to go and what to see. I -- in spite of having interpreter with
25 me, I'm more familiar with this area than the interpreter.
1 Q. Thank you. Can you see and can you agree that here, too, we see
2 more openings on the wall and their distribution is a bit different?
3 A. Your Honour, this mosque is totally destroyed, in fact. We see
4 only one wall, you know, just a few walls over there, but the inside is
5 burnt, destroyed, blew up, and we have no minaret here. It's totally
6 different shape than it was in July 1995 when Mr. Petrovic recorded this
8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Blaszczyk, but I am wondering about the walls.
9 The walls of this structure, they have more openings than the structure
10 that we saw on that film much so I was wondering whether you were taken
11 to some other location?
12 A. Your Honour, I guarantee that this is the same location recorded
13 by Mr. Petrovic. This is -- what can I say?
14 Q. Thank you. Could we now have page 21, map 5, please.
15 Mr. Blaszczyk, can we agree that the Bratunac-Konjevic Polje
16 road -- or, rather, Kravica-Konjevic Polje road lies more or less in the
17 direction -- or runs from east to west; correct?
18 A. Yes, this is correct.
19 Q. Thank you. Do you agree, then, that in the course of the day, at
20 different parts of the day, the shades or the shadow projected by
21 daylight or by the sun can only be towards the west or north-west, north
22 or north-easterly; correct? In other words, it would be opposite to the
23 side where the sun is, because the sun moves from east to south and then
24 west, and the shadows that would be projected would be on the opposite
25 side towards the north; correct?
1 A. It's correct.
2 Q. Thank you. Could we now have page 46, please.
3 Let's take this -- let's take a look at the photograph at
4 17:53:09. Here it would appear that the sun is north-west, and that's
5 not possible; right?
6 A. I didn't make an experiment. You know, I don't know whether it's
7 possible or not, but also I'm convinced and 100 per cent sure that this
8 is the location I spotted in my book.
9 Q. Thank you. All I'm trying to do is establish the accuracy of
10 this video material and the orientation. Now, if Kravica goes in this
11 direction and Konjevic Polje is in the other direction, then we should
12 have the front left side, the sun -- that should be the sunny side and
13 not the other way round. It couldn't be where it is; correct?
14 Now, if you take at the look at the photograph at the bottom,
15 below, we have the same situation. The sun cannot be more northerly in
16 relation to the Konjevic Polje-Bratunac road. It should be southerly;
18 A. I think not necessarily. Depends, you know, how high the sun was
19 at that time. I think it was about 0400 hours when they stopped in this
20 area. But really --
21 JUDGE KWON: This is a curved road.
22 THE WITNESS: Yes, this is a curved road as well, and it can
23 mislead us a little bit, but to be sure, we should -- should make the
24 same experiment on the spot, you know, on the same hours, the same day,
25 but -- but I am sure that this is not [indiscernible] with you.
1 JUDGE KWON: But can we put it this way probably: Can you tell
2 from this picture Konjevic Polje is in which direction, only from this
4 THE WITNESS: From this image Konjevic Polje is direction -- the
5 west direct, to the west.
6 JUDGE KWON: My question is whether you can tell the exact
8 THE WITNESS: Yeah, but this is curve --
9 JUDGE KWON: You know the road.
10 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I know the road very well. Yes, it is marked
11 here the direction to Konjevic Polje, yes.
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Thank you. Mr. Karadzic, please continue.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Mr. Blaszczyk, irrespective of this curve and how sharp it is,
15 unless it was a hairpin curve, the sun cannot be more northerly or
16 northerly -- west-northerly in relation to the road which runs this way
17 and the shadow should be south -- north-easterly; correct?
18 If it can be of assistance, perhaps we can take a look at
19 page 36.
20 Please look at the bottom right photo, 14:57:19. Can you see how
21 the shadow is projected, how these vehicles project the shadow? It is to
22 the south; correct? And this is a correct orientation. They're going
23 towards Konjevic Polje, and the sun is to the left and forward, and the
24 shadow then would be to the right and backward; correct?
25 A. Knowing the shape of this road, rather, it would be towards east
1 and north, the shadow. But really I cannot comment on it because I
2 should be there just to measure the shadow if it's necessary, but we
3 didn't see at that time that it's necessary at all. The location has
4 been found, the video authenticated by Mr. Petrovic and by other people,
5 by other witnesses. We didn't see any reason why to -- to -- to check
6 additional confirmation that -- about the shadow, for example.
7 Q. Well, you cannot really bribe the sun. It is completely
8 unbiased. So all I'm trying to do is use these materials and see how
9 useful they can be as presented here. My -- it is my suggestion that
10 this orientation, the orientations here shown are not accurately
11 established, and as we can see on the bottom right photograph on page 36,
12 it shows there that Konjevic Polje is forward and the sun projects this
13 shadow to the back and north. However, that's not the case with the
14 other photos; correct?
15 A. Your Honour, as I said, you know, this is not straight road.
16 There are a lot of bends, a lot of curves, and in my book I marked the
17 direction where we are heading Konjevic Polje or Bratunac. It's not
18 necessary is reflect this -- this reflects west and east. I didn't have
19 compass with me. I couldn't say, you know, just ...
20 Q. Thank you. Could we look at page 50, please. The upper left
21 picture you see Kravica and Bratunac are behind, in the background of the
22 picture, and the sun is shining from the direction of the south-west and
23 the shadow falls north-west. This is well determined, well established,
24 and the other cannot be well established.
25 A. Yeah, this -- but this is -- as I said, this is on another bend,
1 you know. It's not -- not in the straight direction to Kravica to
2 Bratunac exactly on the -- on west. This is different location. You're
3 right, but taking into consideration the bend, the curves, it's difficult
4 to say right now without -- without making experiment, you know, how it
5 goes on the spot.
6 Q. But can a curve be so important that the sun would shine from the
7 right side of the road? From the north side.
8 A. It depends which direction the road leading us. In spite that we
9 are going to the -- to the west, for example, first we can get the road
10 leading us to the north or to the south and then turning again to the
11 west. General direction to Konjevic Polje is west, but the road is --
12 there are a lot of bends and sometimes we are going to the north,
13 sometimes to the south, sometimes to the west.
14 Q. If we look from Kravica, Konjevic Polje is slightly to the
15 north-west, not exactly north; right?
16 A. Yes, yes.
17 Q. Thank you. Did you observe these headbands worn by some people
18 in several cases?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you. Did you notice that some of the fighting men have an
21 armband and one of them even has a band on the shoulder?
22 A. I would like to see the picture, you know, what we're referring
24 Q. Let us look at page 48 for the head, and I will point out the
25 shoulder on the video material. I will state the exact minute.
1 You remember this. It's not only this man. There are several
2 fighters who wear the same.
3 A. Yes. This man is a member of the 1st PJP Company from
4 CJB Zvornik. I'm referring to the man from the picture A.
5 Q. I'm still looking for the reference in the video footage for the
6 armband and the shoulder. Do you remember that, at one point, one of the
7 troops or the policeman told one Muslim young man to take his T-shirt
8 off? How did you understand that?
9 A. Yes, yes. I remember this part.
10 Q. Do you agree that it was a military T-shirt?
11 A. It looked like military T-shirt. You're right.
12 Q. It was not taken from him. He was just told to take it off, and
13 he continued on his way holding the T-shirt in his hand; right?
14 A. The portion we see that the policeman told the man to take --
15 take his T-shirt off, but it was not taken from him, yes. We don't see
16 it on the video.
17 Q. Thank you. Do you agree it was a suggestion for his own benefit
18 to remove any sign of belonging to the military? [It actually benefits
19 that young man. It's for his good.
20 A. In what sense? What kind of benefits could be?
21 Q. So that he be treated as a civilian, not potentially as a fighter
22 who took that T-shirt off a dead Serb. Did that ever cross your mind?
23 A. I think, rather, the man with the military or quasi-military
24 T-shirt could expect that could be treated as a POW at that time and he
25 surrendered to the army and I don't see any reason why not. It would be
1 better for him.
2 And please take into consideration at that time it was July 1995,
3 and it was very, very hot outside. It was sunshine, and sitting on the
4 meadow for a few hours without T-shirt is quite risky for your health.
5 I don't see that it was done on -- the person who asked the young
6 man to took off his T-shirt he meant any benefit for this young man.
7 Q. Do you know, Mr. Blaszczyk, that during three and a half years
8 the Serb population around the enclave was being killed and that it was
9 all done by local men? Both Serbs and Muslims there were local
10 residents. Do you really think that it was not about personal vendettas
11 at least in some cases? Did you find or look for any information about
13 A. Yes. We know that sometimes the Muslim forces also committed the
14 crimes on the Serb population. This is -- we are not disputing it. But
15 I didn't look inside these crimes very carefully because I was involved
16 in another investigation, the Srebrenica investigation, the crimes
17 related to the fall of Srebrenica.
18 Q. All right. But if the Muslim forces had committed crimes,
19 wouldn't it have been better for that young man to take off the T-shirt
20 designating him as a member of those forces that had committed crimes?
21 If it's a complicated question, we'll leave the subject.
22 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, Mr. Blaszczyk answered that question.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Very well, Mr. Blaszczyk. In this video, at 39:35.2 you say --
1 in fact, we see the insignia of the Drina Wolves. However, there is an
2 armband on one of the young men and on another fighter we see a band on
3 the left shoulder. That's at 41:48. Shall we play it or do you remember
4 that section?
5 A. I think I remember. You're referring to the man walking in
6 Srebrenica town; is correct?
7 Q. Yes, there are three of them. One of them is wearing a
8 flak jacket. He has the insignia of Drina Wolves on his arm, and another
9 has a red band on his shoulder, whereas the third one has a headband.
10 The red band is seen on 47:44.
11 A. Yes, I remember, but I would like to see the footage from this
12 part to be sure.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we then play it at 47 --
14 sorry. No, first 39:35. Let's start from that.
15 We can move on.
16 [Video-clip played]
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. He has something on his left arm; right?
19 A. You're referring to the man on the middle?
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. Yes. This is patch of Drina Wolf.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Play it back, please.
23 [Video-clip played]
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Stop here, please.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. What he says about the army fleeing in all directions into the
2 woods, does that refer to the Muslim troops?
3 A. I believe so.
4 Q. However, in response to a question from Mr. Nicholls, who was
5 being shot at, who was in that column, you said the Muslim population. I
6 suppose it was a slip of the tongue. Do you agree that the overwhelming
7 majority of that column of 13- to 15.000 people were soldiers, not
9 A. You mean the properly armed soldiers with uniforms? I don't
10 agree with it.
11 Q. I mean those who are capable of killing regardless of what
12 they're wearing. A person, a man, can wear a ballerina's tutu. If he
13 has a gun and he's trained to use it, he can kill.
14 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, the Chamber will not rely on
15 Mr. Blaszczyk's evidence as to the nature of that column. Please move on
16 to your next topic.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we play another
18 tape, or maybe we'll skip that part where a red band is seen around the
19 arm -- or the shoulder. 44:20. We can play on.
20 [Video-clip played]
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Did you see in the previous passage the armband on the left arm?
23 We can rewind a little.
24 A. You're referring to --
25 JUDGE KWON: Given the difference of 4 seconds, we may go back to
1 44:15 and start. Yes.
2 [Video-clip played]
3 MR. NICHOLLS: I just want to say we've done this before. If
4 Mr. Karadzic can say stop in English when he wants us to stop, that helps
5 Mr. Reid hit the button more quickly and not wait for translation. Sorry
6 to interrupt.
7 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
8 [Video-clip played]
9 THE ACCUSED: Stop.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Do you agree this is a white armband on the left arm?
12 A. This is little bit different. This is Ljubisa Borovcanin. We
13 have his photo also from the day before, from the 13th of July, 1995. He
14 had the same badge. This is the badge of the Special Police Brigade.
15 It's visible also on his left arm on the 13 July 1995 in Potocari. It's
16 much more clear and visible.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
19 MR. NICHOLLS: I just wanted to put on the record, for this
20 discussion we are at 44:22.7.
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes. While leaving this image there, can we upload
22 page 14 of the road book.
23 Mr. Blaszczyk, do you mean this patch?
24 THE WITNESS: Yes. Correct, Your Honour. I mean this one.
25 JUDGE KWON: And the two armbands are identical.
1 THE WITNESS: Yes, I believe. Yes, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Mr. Karadzic.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now see what's at 44:20 --
4 sorry, a moment. 44:20. Yes, that's it. Just a moment. 47:40.
5 [Video-clip played]
6 THE ACCUSED: Stop.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Do you agree this soldier has a red band on his left shoulder?
9 A. Yes, I agree. I see it, everybody see it.
10 Q. Do you agree that those were usual demarcations, usual markings
11 for soldiers in combat to avoid friendly fire?
12 A. Yes. Yes, I know. Could be red, could be white, depends.
13 JUDGE KWON: Today we're not sitting in an extended format, and
14 it's time to take a break if it is convenient.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm just being told about that by
16 my associate. I agree.
17 JUDGE KWON: We'll take a break for 20 minutes and resume at
18 20 to 11.00.
19 --- Recess taken at 10.21 a.m.
20 --- On resuming at 10.44 a.m.
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Did you notice, Mr. Blaszczyk, that Mane Djuric said, and that's
25 at 1.38 -- could we see 1.38 where Pirocanac says he's filming for the
1 police. Do you remember that?
2 A. Can we play this part of the video, please?
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 01:38.1. Rewind just a little so
4 we can hear the words.
5 [Video-clip played]
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We heard him saying he was filming
7 for the police, and I will find the spot where Mane Djuric is speaking.
8 I believe it comes soon. Play on, please.
9 JUDGE KWON: Since -- is it not page 12 of the road book? It
10 says five minutes something.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm not sure, Your Excellencies.
12 It should be closer to the spot where it said he's filming for the
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Do you remember Mane Djuric saying that UNPROFOR should go and
16 see if anyone else wants to leave and that's their job? Do you remember
18 A. I would like to -- to play it again if it's possible.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let's start at 5:55.4. I believe
20 Djuric says that to a Serb, because his words are, "They should go. It's
21 their job."
22 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honours.
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
24 MR. NICHOLLS: I believe if we beginning playing at approximately
25 4:16, we will get there, to the part Mr. Karadzic is looking for.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 [Video-clip played]
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. That's it.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Did you notice that it is Djuric's understanding it was the
6 UNPROFOR's job to go and see if anyone else wants to come and to bring
7 those who want to leave?
8 A. We see the words and we hear Mane Djuric. What is the question?
9 Q. Did you notice that? Did you remark that that was the
10 distribution of jobs?
11 A. I remark what Mane Djuric said, yes.
12 Q. Thank you. Did you check to whom those houses belonged? With so
13 many destroyed houses, were they destroyed at the time or earlier, the
14 ones we saw on the film?
15 A. You are referring to the houses in Potocari or where?
16 Q. All along the road in that area you could see on the film a lot
17 of destroyed houses. Were they destroyed recently relative to the moment
18 we see on the movie or much earlier? To whom those houses belonged?
19 A. As far as I know they were mixed houses, Serbs and Muslims.
20 Q. Thank you. Can we agree that at 1:00 you saw some people going
21 back, coming back? Did you understand that those were Serbs returning to
22 Srebrenica? And later on you saw interviews. Were those people to whom
23 Pirocanac was speaking Serbs?
24 A. Again, can we play this part of the video? I would like to see
25 exactly what you're referring to.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 01.00.
2 JUDGE KWON: No. No. Further, further, at the later part, in
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not 00, but 01.
5 MR. NICHOLLS: We're not clear on the time Mr. Karadzic wants.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 01.00, not 00.13. 01.
7 [Video-clip played]
8 THE ACCUSED: Stop.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. What, in your understanding, do we see here? Who are these
11 people either moving in or coming back?
12 A. I believe they are Serbs, and the area when this was recorded,
13 this is near Bratunac, very near Bratunac, not in Srebrenica.
14 Q. They are returning to Srebrenica because Bratunac was
15 continuously in Serb hands, whereas Srebrenica was not.
16 A. No. Mr. Pirocanac and Mr. Borovcanin are driving towards
17 Bratunac, and these people are walking towards Bratunac.
18 Q. Thank you. What about the interview you did with Mr. Pirocanac?
19 Did he tell you that they were being shot at at the time?
20 Look at page 34 of that interview from 2007. It says they were
21 shooting the whole time.
22 A. I don't remember details on this interview, much details, but
23 there was kind of information from him that there was shooting along the
25 Q. Thank you. Can we see 2352.
1 Do you recall there's a man falling to the ground there? What
2 did you understand? Was that a wounded person or was he wounded at that
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I ask if this interview from
5 2007 is part of the 92 bis package?
6 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, I believe we bis'd his -- just his
7 testimony from the Popovic case, not previous interviews, if that's what
8 Mr. Karadzic is referring to.
9 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Then the Defence would
11 like to tender that if there is no objection.
12 JUDGE KWON: I haven't seen it, Mr. Karadzic.
13 MR. NICHOLLS: Well, I think he needs to ask some questions and
14 give more -- a greater foundation for tendering that entire interview.
15 I -- in principle, I don't think I would object, but at this point he
16 hasn't -- it's not clear to the witness, I think, what the question even
17 was that he was being asked about.
18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. That was my point.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we then upload T0003261. I
20 have the Serbian version here, and I believe we need the English one.
21 JUDGE KWON: Do you have the 65 ter number, Mr. Nicholls?
22 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you. It should be 04761, and unless I'm
23 mistaken, I don't believe we've received a list yet of crossed documents.
24 I apologise if I'm mistaken, but we don't have it, I don't think.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My mistake. I thought that was
1 part of the 92 bis package because it relates to this video material and
2 Mr. Blaszczyk participated in the interview.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. You did attend; correct?
5 A. Yes, correct.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 Can we see page 34. That's page 34 in Serbian at least.
8 Let's look at ZP, Zoran Petrovic, at the top.
9 "We just stopped because they were shooting at us the whole time.
10 We were alone on the road." Do you remember that?
11 A. Yes, this is transcript from this interview, what he said during
12 the interview.
13 Q. Can we see page 15 so that we can correlate it with the video
15 Do you remember that Borovcanin told him:
16 "Hold on to me, stick to me, and you can film anything."
17 And Pirocanac confirmed in this interview that he was under no
18 restriction in his filming.
19 On my page 15, it's the words at the bottom after Mr. Nicholls,
20 JN, [In English] It should start: "Well, I asked him what's going on."
21 [Interpretation] Do you remember he told you that Borovcanin had
22 told him, "Just stick to me"? When he said, "What should I do?"
23 Borovcanin told him there's no problem. He can film anything he likes.
24 A. I can't find this portion in the English version, but let me
25 check Serbian.
1 Q. I think that it may be one page down in English. Yes, Ljubovija
2 bridge. Yes. That's the reference.
3 A. Maybe next page in English version.
4 THE ACCUSED: Please, next page to see.
5 THE WITNESS: May I ask for the next page in English.
6 MR. NICHOLLS: I don't want to interrupt, but what's the
7 question, Judge? He -- he may be able to just answer the question if we
8 get to it, rather than reading out from the interview --
9 JUDGE KWON: So, why don't you just put your question as
10 suggested by Mr. Nicholls, Mr. Karadzic.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. The question was there and Mr. Blaszczyk wanted to see this. Do
13 you remember that in the interview Mr. Pirocanac informed you that
14 Borovcanin and no one else imposed any restrictions? They could film --
15 or, rather, Pirocanac could film whatever he wanted; right?
16 A. I think, yes, but I don't remember the exact word used by
17 Pirocanac in this interview. This is why I would like to check the
18 transcript from the interview.
19 Q. Then it must be two pages up, because it seems that there is more
20 pages in English rather than less. Just a moment, please.
21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not understand the
23 JUDGE KWON: Is it not included in his 92 bis transcript?
24 Probably yes.
25 MR. NICHOLLS: I think so, Your Honour. I can't give a page
1 reference, but he was my witness in at that trial, and I recollect him
2 making that point that, that he was allowed to film.
3 THE ACCUSED: And speaking, and -- I think next -- next page.
4 Next page, please.
5 MR. KARADZIC:
6 Q. "I asked him," row 12. [Interpretation] Line 16, please take a
7 look at that:
8 "[In English] And he said: Stick to me. You can film
9 everything. I don't recall he had forbidden me to film anything."
10 A. Yes, I see. And what is the question, please?
11 Q. [Interpretation] So did you establish that he could record or
12 film everything he wanted to film, and do you agree that then all the
13 material was accessible to him and to you?
14 A. We saw what was recorded at that time on this -- from his raw
15 footage and from the broadcasted documentary from Studio B, but we are
16 sure this is not entire material, that a few seconds are still missing.
17 And I can say this material was accessible definitely to Mr. Pirocanac
18 but not entire material to us. We got so kind of the redacted material
19 from him.
20 Q. But wasn't he saying that you had received raw material rather
21 than redacted material, and you agree that Ms. Hajji Vukovic could not
22 offer anything else but what Pirocanac had had? Do you remember that
23 Ms. Hajji Vukovic wrote to the army that she wanted to hand over the
24 material? Do you agree that it had to be this same material?
25 A. Your Honours, as I said, we received a copy of the raw material
1 but this material handed over to us or being even accessible by us -- to
2 us by Mr. Pirocanac was in a redacted version. There are a few sequences
3 that are missing. They are missing the part of Kravica warehouse.
4 They're missing the prisoners kept in the white house in Potocari. This
5 is visible, what we know for sure for 100 per cent because we know the
6 footage from Studio B broadcast. But we believe that there are more
7 materials redacted. We never seen this more material which is redacted
8 from raw material.
9 And Mr. Karadzic mentioned here tape handed over to the security
10 organ of Main Staff, yes, this material is also copy of the raw material
11 but in a redacted version, without part of Kravica, for example, and
12 white house.
13 Q. How many minutes were broadcast by Studio B out of all of this
14 material of Mr. Pirocanac?
15 A. The Studio B broadcasted documentary called "Srebrenica," I
16 think, and entire material -- edited material, this is edited material,
17 they choose only the best picture according to them, you know, that could
18 be showing the TV. It lasted about half an hour, if I'm not mistaken,
19 but I believe it is about half an hour. Including, of course, this
20 missing portion from the raw material. But only a few seconds, just few
21 footage of white house and few footage of warehouse in Kravica.
22 Q. Thank you. On page 34 of this interview, we saw that there's
23 this reference to shooting. Mr. Pirocanac says that he has some
24 20-minute material; right? "In my 28-minute material." And then he was
25 asked whether he had stopped there, you asked him that, and he said, "No,
1 no, they were shooting at us."
2 Do you remember that?
3 A. Yes. If this is in transcript, probably he said that, yeah.
4 Q. Thank you. Except for feelings, do you not have any other basis
5 to establish that there is something is missing; isn't that right? Do
6 you have any proof of anything missing?
7 A. Yes. The first proof is this is broadcast of Studio B that we
8 see the footages which are not included in -- in the raw material, and
9 then also we have a witness who saw entire material, not edited material,
10 in Studio B. I believe it was on the 15th of July, 1995. And he saw
11 more footages, not much more but little bit more. It's not only my
13 Q. But do you agree that Pirocanac made the programme that was
14 broadcast on Studio B and that he played what had been missing, rather,
15 that he had edited it; right?
16 A. Pirocanac, of course, took the part in editing this programme
17 because this is his material, and he added to this programme these
18 two parts missing from -- at least two parts missing from -- from the raw
19 material. But I would say that he didn't include everything what is
20 missing from the raw material in Studio B broadcast. I would not say.
21 Q. Thank you. But you don't have any proof, do you? We would like
22 to make that distinction, what you would say, what you would not say, and
23 what you know for sure.
24 A. Except the statement of the witness who saw entire material, we
25 don't have anything more. We don't have the tape, original tape, with
1 the entire material. We got only the reacted version of raw material and
2 that's it. Studio B broadcast and witness statement.
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 MR. NICHOLLS: Could I have -- I can't find it in my interview.
6 Could I have the passage Mr. Karadzic spoke of on page 37, lines 13 to
7 16, where he says, "On page 34 of this interview," and then he speaks
8 about Mr. Pirocanac allegedly said something about his 20-minute,
9 28-minute material. I'd just like to find that.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. In the Serbian version
11 on page 36 -- or, rather, 34, it says in Bratunac -- Pirocanac is saying:
12 "In Bratunac, somewhere on the right-hand side I filmed this thing that
13 is very important for your work," and so on and so forth, and he says:
14 "In this 28-minute material of mine." And then there is a reference to
15 gunfire being opened at them. So he refers to 28-minute material, not
16 more than that.
17 JUDGE KWON: So we are asking the English page for that,
18 Mr. Karadzic.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We'll find it now. We displayed it
20 a moment ago when it said: "They fired at us."
21 Yes, that's the page. Thank you to the person who found it.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. So he says here that he had 28-minutes material. Isn't that
25 A. To be honest, I quite -- I don't understand what he is talking
1 about because 28-minutes material could be only material from Studio B,
2 because this edited version lasted about half an hour, but his entire raw
3 material it lasted one hour, exactly one hour and one minute maybe, or
4 two minutes.
5 But may I see another page of this interview? The next one,
7 Well, it's difficult to tell, I mean, because this weird number,
8 minutes. It's 28-minutes material, it's only broadcasted material, not
9 entire raw material handed over by Mr. Pirocanac to us. We have one hour
10 of material from him, maybe more. Of course, in redacted version.
11 Q. Thank you. But, Mr. Blaszczyk, you had insight into the rest.
12 Well, all right. We're going to abandon this topic altogether.
13 Did you see the other films that were made by Mr. Pirocanac --
14 or, rather, the other documentaries from Bosnia?
15 A. Yes, I did.
16 Q. For example, did you see this film about Semizovac, near
17 Sarajevo, where the Serbs were totally encircled from the inside and the
18 outside? That was also filmed by Christiane Amanpour for CNN.
19 A. I think not, but during our interview with Mr. Pirocanac, he
20 handed over to us also one recorded documentary by him about the
21 activities of the Special Police Brigade. As far as I remember, it was
22 on Sarajevo front line and from June 1995. I've seen this film.
23 Q. Thank you. It's about the Black Swans, the special Muslim unit
24 called the Black Swans.
25 A. I'm afraid that not. It was -- yeah. It was the film, the movie
1 about -- about day-to-day life of -- of police brigade members in
2 Sarajevo front line, but I don't think it was about Black Swans, not that
3 one. At least I don't remember, but I'm not sure.
4 Q. In this interview, did Mr. Pirocanac inform you about the
5 existence of such documentary films, and did you show any interest in
7 A. I should refer to my interview. I haven't read this interview
8 very carefully recently. I don't remember.
9 Q. It's page 9 in my version, the Serbian version. He is telling
10 you about Christiane Amanpour.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] On the basis of this name perhaps
12 it's going to be easier to find the proper page in English. So perhaps
13 we can move on to page 10. Yes, excellent. Well found. It is exactly
14 what we're looking at now. Oh, sorry, it's in Serbian.
15 Perhaps the next page and perhaps we can find Amanpour there. I
16 mean the next page in English. Yes. From line 15 onwards.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. So he informed you about that. Did you ask for that footage?
19 Did the OTP show any interest whatsoever in that footage?
20 A. I don't remember. We may have this footage here in The Hague,
21 but I don't remember. In fact, I was the investigator involved in the
22 investigation regarding the fall of Srebrenica in -- from July 1995. I
23 was not much interested about the material from the other part of Bosnia
24 at that time, especially this documentary probably is available for
25 another team who -- which -- which conduct an investigation in -- in this
1 part of the Bosnia. But I cannot answer your question.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like us to see 23:52.1 or
4 52, from that film.
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
6 MR. NICHOLLS: Again I'm not objecting, but we still don't have a
7 list of cross-examination documents.
8 JUDGE KWON: This is from the road book film.
9 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm sorry. I thought he had a different one,
10 Your Honour.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The interview is also from the
12 Prosecutor's list. I thought it was part of 92 bis.
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Let us continue.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not 00:23, but 23:52.1.
15 JUDGE KWON: Let us play and then see whether it's the one.
16 [Video-clip played]
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We can stop here for a moment.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Do you know, Mr. Blaszczyk, in what direction these trucks are
21 A. Yes. Your Honour, these trucks are heading towards Kravica and
23 Q. From Konjevic Polje or from Srebrenica?
24 A. These trucks are on the road near Sandici meadow. It means from
25 Konjevic Polje direction towards Bratunac.
1 Q. And in your view, which is the sunny side there?
2 A. I think the sun is on the top according to -- I don't see much,
3 much shadow here.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have what I asked for,
6 22 -- or, rather, 23:52.1.
7 JUDGE KWON: I don't follow the content, Mr. Karadzic, if this is
8 not it. What footage do you refer to?
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] At the Sandici meadow and where
10 Borovcanin is saying they're targeting cars, and then we see a man
11 falling. Sandici, as far as I can tell, it's 23:52.1.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. That's what you spoke of on page 67 of yesterday's transcript.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Maybe 11:20. I'm not sure. No.
15 On page 68 there is this suggestion that someone is shooting, although
16 there is no sound. So I would like us to see that moment when Borovcanin
17 says they're firing at the car.
18 [Video-clip played]
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, let us go on.
20 [Video-clip played]
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I did not notice this pause
22 yesterday. There's something missing. Please let us see whether this is
24 [Video-clip played]
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that it is in this darker
1 part. You can see a man, a Muslim in a leather jacket, and then you hear
2 Borovcanin saying they are targeting the car, and then we see them
3 lifting a man off the road. It must be at 11:20. And he says that on
4 page 68 of yesterday's transcript. That's what it was about.
5 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honours, I believe it's the part -- if I'm
6 right, the part that Mr. Karadzic is looking for, if we start at 23,
7 within about 30 seconds we'll get to the part I think he's talking about,
8 where Mr. Borovcanin talks about cars being targeted.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Nicholls.
10 [Video-clip played]
11 THE ACCUSED: Stop. [Interpretation] Can we see here where
12 Borovcanin says, "Targeting, targeting cars."
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Do you agree, Mr. Blaszczyk, that this is in keeping with what
15 Mr. Pirocanac said on page 34, I believe, that they were being targeted
16 throughout the time?
17 A. Yes, I agree that there was -- along the road there was fighting
18 also with the Muslim forces. Except the civilians, there were soldiers,
19 the people -- there were people -- or, rather, people who had a gun and
20 it was also fighting. We know that the soldiers, the Serbian soldiers,
21 at least one in Sandici meadow was killed. I believe it was on the 13.
22 And by grenade and two or three were wounded. Yeah, I believe, yes.
23 Q. Thank you. Do you remember when Pirocanac said that he had seen
24 Serbs and UNPROFOR members helping people? It's on page 14, 15 of the
25 interview in the Serbian version. Do you remember that he told you that
1 he had seen that?
2 A. I think there is something, but if this is in transcript -- I
3 don't remember exactly the words, but if we look at the transcript and he
4 says in this way, this is true. What he says, of course.
5 Q. Thank you. Do you remember Mr. Pirocanac telling you that
6 Borovcanin went to visit a wounded officer in the hospital? He was in
7 fact a military police.
8 A. Yes, remember, but he wasn't the military police. He was the
9 member of Sekovici Detachment, I think deputy commander of
10 Sekovici Detachment, Cuturic. He was wounded in an incident in Kravica
11 warehouse and he was transport -- he was taken to -- or went to -- to
12 Bratunac health centre. And, yes, I remember Borovcanin went there to --
13 to visit him. But he wasn't military police officer. He was the member
14 of Special Police Brigade, Sekovici Detachment.
15 Q. Thank you. Do you know how many men, how many police officers
16 guarded these prisoners at Kravica? Do you agree that it was about five
17 to six men who guarded several hundred men?
18 A. We never established the number, exactly how many people guarded
19 the prisoners in Kravica warehouse but -- but we know that they were
20 members of -- of Sekovici Detachment, the people who guarded them, who
21 took the part in killings, and some PJP people were -- members were also
22 present in Kravica warehouse, but how many we don't know exactly. I
23 don't know. We never be able to establish this.
24 Q. Thank you. Now, the wounding of this officer, did that precede
25 the shooting of the prisoners? Did you receive information to the effect
1 that the prisoner came up to this person to ask for fire to light his
2 cigarette, and while -- while he was lighting his cigarette, this man
3 pulled out a knife and then tried to stab him and then he shot back, and
4 was it on this occasion and on that -- that the man was wounded and is
5 this when there was shooting?
6 A. I never heard story described in this way how you did. I never
7 heard this story, that somebody stabbed the -- or tried to stab the
8 policeman. No. I know that Cuturic was wounded in Kravica warehouse and
9 they kept prisoners in Kravica warehouses. One of -- I don't remember
10 his name now but one of these also members of Sekovici Detachment of
11 Special Police Brigade, in fact the gun was taken from him and then one
12 of the Muslim men kept in Kravica warehouse killed him with this gun.
13 And then Cuturic tried to get back the gun from the Muslim man and burned
14 his hands, and this is why he was taken to the hospital, to the health
15 centre in Bratunac. But just after that, according to our information,
16 the killings started in Kravica.
17 Q. Thank you. But my learned friend Mr. Nicholls asked you about
18 the return of Borovcanin to Bratunac. Did you understand that he went
19 back there in order to visit this person at the hospital?
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
21 MR. NICHOLLS: I don't think that's quite accurate that I asked
22 about the return of Mr. Borovcanin to Bratunac. I believe what I talked
23 about was the U-turn made on the road and then heading back in the
24 direction of Bratunac before quite reaching Konjevic Polje, just to keep
25 it straight.
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Nicholls.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Yes, but unless I misunderstood, there was the possibility that
4 the suggestion was made that this was because they wanted to go back to
5 Sandici meadow. However -- well, tell us, Mr. Blaszczyk. When was this
6 visit to the hospital? Was it before or after?
7 A. It was after the Kravica incident started. And -- sorry, you
8 meant that -- according to you, Mr. Borovcanin made a U-turn and went
9 towards Sandici and Kravica and Bratunac to visit the wounded officer?
10 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, would you like to discuss with this
11 witness all the substantive matters?
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, no. All I wanted to know is
13 because Mr. Nicholls insisted on their turning around and going back, but
14 looking at the shadows, I don't think that's how it was exactly.
15 What I would like to know is: How did Mr. Blaszczyk learn when
16 they went to the hospital for this visit.
17 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, we talked to Mr. Borovcanin. You have
18 the statement of Mr. Borovcanin. We talked to his driver, we talked to
19 Pirocanac as well. And yes, yes, we got this information from the
20 witnesses. And also we talked to other members of Special Police Brigade
21 who participated, who were present during these events in Kravica.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. When was this visit to the hospital? Was it before they left for
24 Konjevic Polje or after they returned?
25 A. It was after they returned, definitely after they made the
1 U-turn, and we have the last footage from the raw material of Pirocanac
2 is recorded in Sandici meadow. Then we have redacted version few
3 seconds -- about 22 seconds where we believe the incident in Kravica was
4 recorded, and after that Mr. Borovcanin returned to -- to -- went to
5 Bratunac hospital to see Cuturic.
6 And, Your Honour, if you notice, this is also in the raw material
7 that Mr. Borovcanin is talking on the radio and talking with one of his
8 soldiers and members of Special Police Brigade call -- his calling him
9 by -- by nickname Oficir. This nickname Oficir, it was the nickname of
10 Cuturic, the soldier who was wounded in the Kravica warehouse incident.
11 I think this is conversation on the way back from -- when they made the
12 final U-turn.
13 Q. So they made that U-turn to go to the hospital. So at the time
14 when there was this Kravica incidence -- incident, they were in
15 Konjevic Polje, Borovcanin and Pirocanac; correct?
16 A. No, sir. This is not correct. They made a U-turn. They stopped
17 at Sandici. They went towards Kravica, and they stopped in Kravica. In
18 the meantime when they were approaching Kravica, Pirocanac recorded these
19 events in Kravica, this few footage, we know, and after stopping in
20 Kravica, Borovcanin went to Bratunac.
21 Q. But Pirocanac told you that he did not stop at Kravica, that he
22 filmed this from the car; is that correct?
23 A. I should look at his interview, but we talked to Mr. Borovcanin.
24 We talked to his driver, and we know that they stopped in Kravica. And
25 also we -- we have the statement, I believe, other members of
1 Sekovici Detachment who were at that place there.
2 Q. However, from the video we can see that it was shot from a moving
3 car, don't we?
4 A. Yes, it's correct. This is the footage shot from the moving car
5 when they approaching -- approaching Kravica warehouse from Sandici
6 meadow, when they were driving from Sandici meadow toward Kravica
7 warehouse. Where they stopped exactly, I think it was pointed to us by
8 the driver of Mr. Borovcanin, where they stopped the car in Kravica
9 warehouse. I should refer to his statement but -- yes.
10 Q. However, both Pirocanac and his film show that they did not stop
11 and that the film was made while they were moving; correct?
12 A. I think that Pirocanac raw material and Pirocanac footage showing
13 us that -- that they were moving towards Kravica because he recorded
14 incident in Kravica where they are -- were approaching Kravica warehouse.
15 We don't see on this footage that they stopped the car, but doesn't mean
16 that they didn't stop the car.
17 JUDGE KWON: Just one second. For clarification, Mr. Blaszczyk,
18 did you say or did you not that you knew why they made a U-turn, the
19 reason for their U-turn?
20 THE WITNESS: No, no, I don't know.
21 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Karadzic. Please continue. Do
22 you think you can conclude your cross-examination before the break?
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] When do we go on break?
24 JUDGE KWON: At noon.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll do my best. I'm not sure, but
1 I'll do my best.
2 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. But you did know that after their return they went to the
5 hospital. Now, where was Borovcanin when he spoke with Oficir on the
7 A. He was on the way to Sandici meadow when they made their U-turn.
8 I believe I remember.
9 JUDGE KWON: The question was when he spoke with Oficir on the
11 THE WITNESS: Where he was, yes.
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes, where.
13 THE WITNESS: I think it was before Sandici meadow, approaching
14 Sandici meadow from the area of Pervani, Lolici. Still driving that few
15 hundred metres from Sandici meadow from direction of Konjevic Polje.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Thank you. Did you see, although there was no mention made of
18 that, that the church in Srebrenica was roofless and did you know that it
19 had been turned into an sty, a pigsty, a stable, as it were, and a public
21 A. No, I didn't know it.
22 Q. It can be seen, although I won't show it now because it wasn't
23 commented upon by the person who filmed it, but we do have it on film if
24 we should need it. Just a moment, bear with me, please.
25 Did you see the entire footage that Pirocanac could offer you?
1 A. You're referring to the raw material handed over by him to us?
2 Q. Yes, and also whatever was broadcast on Studio B?
3 A. Yes, I've seen both.
4 Q. Thank you. Do you know that Studio B was in sharp opposition to
5 President Milosevic and that they were also political and ideological
6 opponents of ours, of Bosnian Serbs?
7 A. I didn't got the details, but I know it was a kind of -- they
8 called this Studio B as independent television in Belgrade at that time.
9 Q. Thank you. Now I would like to move to this other topic and
10 touch upon the Drina Corps collection. Can you tell us, please, whether
11 you agree that that is state property, that archive.
12 A. What do you mean state property? Right now or ...
13 Q. To put it differently, was it unlawful that for several years
14 these archives were in private hands and they were kept in an
15 inappropriate place?
16 A. Well, I wouldn't say that the archive was in the private hands.
17 I would say that was under the supervision -- rather, say that it was
18 under the supervision of the 1st Army of Bosnia -- the Serbs' Army of
19 Bosnia-Herzegovina, VRS, and then ended up in the barracks of Serbia and
20 Montenegro army in Gornji Milanovac.
21 Q. Was that lawful or unlawful?
22 A. According to the information we received from Serbia and
23 Montenegro authorities on our request, the authorities of this country
24 didn't know -- at least the higher officials didn't know that the archive
25 was transported to the territory of Serbia and ended up in -- in the
1 barracks, military barracks.
2 Q. Did you investigate why this -- these records were unlawfully
3 taken out of Republika Srpska and stored in Serbia?
4 A. Well, yes. We know -- yeah. We suspect -- no, and we are pretty
5 sure why it was taken to the Serbia across the river, because in
6 Bosnia-Herzegovina the archive was not secure, let's say. If the archive
7 would be in Bosnia-Herzegovina, it would be available to the ICTY. In
8 the past, several premises of the army of VRS were searched by ICTY. It
9 was Zvornik, Bratunac, and Drina Wolves barracks and we seized at that
10 time some documents. It is visible that we are looking for the documents
11 at least from the period of July 1995. And it was well known for
12 everybody that ICTY is interested to -- to have the archive of
13 Main Staff, archive of Drina Corps, of the units which -- at least
14 participated in -- in operation in Srebrenica in July 1995. And this is
15 our assumption and I think this is justified assumption that this is why
16 the archive was transported to or moved to the Serbia territory where
17 ICTY had no access or the international forces had no access to Serbia
19 Q. Thank you. So it is your view that there was some unlawful
20 private reasons for these archives to be moved. Did you establish what
21 the reason was for this -- these archives to re-surface?
22 A. We know that the archive was moved to the territory of Serbia and
23 Montenegro in 1999, I think in spring 1999, and then disappeared
24 somewhere. According to our witness -- our witnesses, because we tried
25 to locate this archive. We talked to many of the witnesses who had
1 contact with the archives as -- when the archive was available -- was
2 still in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and we got this information that the archive
3 was transported to -- had been transported to Serbia and Montenegro.
4 And why this archive was discovered or handed over to us in this
5 particular time a few years later in 2004, in December, I don't know.
6 According to the information we received from authorities of RS in
7 Bosnia-Herzegovina, they came to know about this archive through their
8 own channels in -- that the archive is located in the barracks in
9 Gornji Milanovac, and they are transportation this archive to
11 Q. Thank you. Was that in any way related to the agreement, plea
12 agreements that were made by some accused here at The Hague, this fact
13 that it suddenly came to the knowledge where these archives were?
14 A. No, this is not the case.
15 Q. Very well. We will establish that when we compare the dates when
16 one of the accused made a plea agreement. But do you know that one of
17 the accused actually participated in this removal of the archives and
18 then later on he reached a plea agreement here with the Prosecution?
19 A. Yes, this is correct, but this accused participated or just to
20 the part of -- in this action of removing this archive from the territory
21 of Bosnia-Herzegovina to the Serbia and Montenegro. He was not aware
22 where the archive was taken out from the place in -- in Mali Zvornik, in
23 fact. This was -- the first archive was placed in Mali Zvornik. This is
24 across the river from Zvornik, on the territory of Serbia and Montenegro
25 at the time. But he was not aware where the archive ended up, in fact.
1 Q. Did you establish, as you established that he took part in the
2 removal of the archives, did you also establish whether he had any role
3 in the discovery of these documents and their return?
4 A. He had no role of -- of this action of returning these documents
5 to -- to the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina. But when the archive was
6 placed in Mali Zvornik, I think between -- if I could remember, between
7 1998 and 1999, this person had access to this archive, and he collected
8 few documents from this archive and he handed over these documents over
9 to the ICTY, to the OTP. But he didn't play any role in returning this
10 entire archive from territory of Serbia Montenegro to Bosnia-Herzegovina
11 in December 2004.
12 Q. How did you establish that? Couldn't he tell his friends where
13 the archives were or inform them about everything else, what was -- what
14 measures were to be taken and which were not? So did you exclude that
15 possibility or is there -- does it exist? Does the possibility exist?
16 A. No. I exclude this possibility.
17 Q. How did you exclude it?
18 A. This person had been interviewed by OTP several times and the
19 subject of archive was touched with him also several times. And we never
20 proved, we never got any piece of information that this person could
21 be -- could be involved in returning this archive to the territory of --
22 to RS and at that time this person served his sentence, I believe. He
23 was sentenced already by this Tribunal and he was in The Hague or
24 wherever he was in gaol.
25 Q. Did you receive any evidence that he participated? You got
1 evidence that he did not -- did you maybe get evidence that he did not
2 participate, but it was not in your interest to have it presented?
3 A. No, we didn't receive any evidence that he participated in it and
4 I -- no. We don't have -- we didn't have a piece of evidence just saying
5 that he could participate in this -- this returning of the archive.
6 Q. Did you find evidence that he was not involved? Did you rule it
7 out using the regular methods?
8 A. I -- I don't understand why we should take into consideration
9 that he was involved in this returns of this archive. What we could, we
10 sent request to the Serbia and Montenegro. We sent also request to the
11 authorities of RS asking about the path or the way how the archive was --
12 where it was hidden exactly and how it was possible that was taken to the
13 territory of Serbia and Montenegro and how it was possible that it was
14 returned to RS.
15 Q. The Defence would like to know all that, too, but you said
16 yourself that the said person was involved in handling the archive. It
17 seized certain documents illegally and transported the rest to Serbia or
18 was involved in its transportation to Serbia. Now, what I want to know
19 is what was the interest in making the archive disappear and then
20 suddenly returning it. If you don't know, it doesn't matter, but did you
21 rule out that this party had a vested interest and was involved in the
22 return of the archive, just as it was involved earlier in its
24 JUDGE KWON: Asked and answered, and it's your statement. What
25 is your question?
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I asked, but Mr. Blaszczyk answered
2 a question I didn't put. I asked if he ruled out the possibility by
3 usual means, usual methods.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Was the Defence team of any of the accused involved or present in
6 this hand-over of documentation? Just answer with a yes or no, please.
7 A. If this is the question, no.
8 Q. Thank you. Was a representative of Republika Srpska present in
9 Zagreb when this hand-over to you was done, or repackaging maybe?
10 A. No. The archive was transported by UN car with UN escort to --
11 directly to our office in Zagreb. Nobody was present from RS side.
12 Q. Thank you. This documentation was repacked at least twice,
13 perhaps three times; correct?
14 A. Yes, correct.
15 Q. Thank you. Are you sure that you have received all the
17 A. I'm sure that we haven't received all documents.
18 Q. I see. And are you sure that no documents were subsequently
19 added? In other words, did you receive a protocol and were you able to
20 compare to make sure that the documents you were receiving were recorded
21 contemporaneously either as incoming or outgoing?
22 A. No. We never received such documentation.
23 Q. Thank you. So you cannot rule out the possibility that some of
24 the documents that could affect one or more accused have been concealed
25 before the hand-over to you?
1 A. Yes, you're right, we cannot rule out.
2 Q. You also cannot rule out the possibility that some exculpatory
3 documents, exculpatory to other accused, were also removed before the
4 hand-over to you?
5 A. We cannot exclude possibility that some documents were removed
6 from the archive. What kind of documents they will be, we don't know.
7 We know for sure that we are still lacking of documents from security
8 department or security branch of VRS. We are quite lacking the documents
9 of -- logistic documents relating to July period, let's say, 1995. Some
10 operational documents are missing. What else, we don't know.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Blaszczyk.
12 I'm finished, Your Excellencies.
13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Mr. Nicholls.
14 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.
15 Re-examination by Mr. Nicholls:
16 Q. Just one topic, Mr. Blaszczyk. There were some questions
17 about -- quite a few questions about where the U-turn was made, how you
18 know where the U-turn was made when Mr. Borovcanin and Mr. Petrovic were
19 travelling on the 13th of July in the vicinity of Sandici/Konjevic Polje.
20 I want to just try to keep this clear, play some of the video again. It
21 won't take long.
22 MR. NICHOLLS: Could we go to 14:30, please, and this will be
23 relevant to map book page 36. You can play from 14:30.
24 [Video-clip played]
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we get a time reference, the
1 time of day when this was filmed?
2 JUDGE KWON: Do we have time reference at all?
3 MR. NICHOLLS: There's no -- he can see as well as we can when
4 the counter appears and when it doesn't, so I'd rather just keep playing
5 it at this point.
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
7 [Video-clip played]
8 MR. NICHOLLS: [Interpretation] We've stopped at 15:01.1.
9 Q. Mr. Blaszczyk, this photo corresponds -- this still corresponds
10 just about perfectly with picture D on page 36 of the road book which
11 you've marked as position on map 10. Now, which direction is
12 Mr. Borovcanin and Mr. Pirocanac travelling at this time and where are
14 A. Mr. Borovcanin and Mr. Pirocanac, they are following with their
15 car these two APCs we see on this footage. They are driving towards the
16 direction of Konjevic Polje. They're slowly moving towards the direction
17 of Konjevic Polje.
18 Q. Now, we won't repeat your testimony but you established that by
19 the houses and the topography and the sequence of the video; is that
21 A. Yes, this is correct.
22 MR. NICHOLLS: Keep playing, please.
23 [Video-clip played]
24 MR. NICHOLLS: Sorry. We stopped at 16:27.
25 Q. The previous footage we saw was from outside the car. We're now
1 in the car moving; is that right?
2 A. Yes, it's correct.
3 Q. Keep playing, please.
4 [Video-clip played]
5 MR. NICHOLLS:
6 Q. We're now at 16:28.12 -- sorry, 16:32.3.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't have a counter on my
8 screen. I can't understand why I don't see the time.
9 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm speaking, Mr. Karadzic, of the red counter in
10 the bottom right on the Sanction presentation.
11 Q. Now, this still corresponds to photos -- to photo A on page 38 of
12 the map book which you've marked as map -- as position on map 11,
13 2.000 metres from Sandici meadow on the road leading from Konjevic Polje
14 towards Sandici and Bratunac.
15 Can you tell us -- look at this. Where are we now in this video?
16 A. As you said, we are about 2.000 metres from Sandici meadow, and
17 the car is approaching Sandici meadow. In a few minutes they will be in
18 Sandici meadow, near Sandici meadow. This is area called Pervani, Lolici
20 Q. So what we're seeing now, is this before or after the U-turn that
21 was made?
22 A. It was after U-turn they made, and this is first footage recorded
23 by Mr. Pirocanac when they made U-turn. Where exactly they made U-turn
24 we don't know because as we saw the footage previously, the Pervani,
25 these two APCs, the footage was recorded about 100 metres -- 1.000 metres
1 from this place towards Konjevic Polje.
2 Q. And this is the location where we see the reference of
3 Mr. Borovcanin and Oficir, if we keep playing another minute.
4 [Video-clip played]
5 MR. NICHOLLS: Stopped at 16:48.0.
6 Q. So map position 11, which is shown -- described on page 38 of the
7 map book. Is this where the discussion is taking place with Borovcanin
8 and Oficir?
9 A. Yes, it's correct.
10 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you. No further questions.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just one question. Was this the
12 first contact between Borovcanin and his unit?
13 THE WITNESS: What do you mean between Borovcanin and his unit?
14 Borovcanin was the commanding officer of the police forces in this area.
15 I don't believe --
16 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, we can read the transcript if
18 MR. NICHOLLS: I was just going to say that doesn't arise from my
20 JUDGE KWON: No. But this is not the part that you referred to
21 as his -- as his receiving reports as to the wound -- the wounding of
22 Oficir, is it?
23 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. This is Oficir. His name -- his
24 real name is Cuturic. I think Rade Cuturic. He was the man who was
25 wounded in Kravica warehouse, in this incident in Kravica warehouse, but
1 later on as we see --
2 JUDGE KWON: Not here.
3 THE WITNESS: No, no, no. No. He was wounded later on during --
4 when the Kravica started from the shooting of and killing of one of the
5 Serb policemen over there.
6 JUDGE KWON: According to your evidence, Mr. Borovcanin made a
7 stop at Sandici still after having heard his -- Oficir was wounded.
8 THE WITNESS: No, Your Honour. I think they're talking about
9 totally different events now. There is not conversation about his wounds
10 here. I believe that Oficir, Cuturic, is still in good shape here, when
11 they have conversation on the radio.
12 JUDGE KWON: Do you remember the second portion of Sandici
13 Mr. Pirocanac took before they arrived in the Kravica warehouse?
14 THE WITNESS: Yes.
15 JUDGE KWON: When they were at Sandici for the second time --
16 THE WITNESS: Yes, understand.
17 JUDGE KWON: -- had Mr. Borovcanin have heard about Oficir's
19 THE WITNESS: Could hear. Could hear.
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes, that was my --
21 THE WITNESS: It happened near this time.
22 JUDGE KWON: -- question. I'm sorry, I overlapped.
23 THE WITNESS: Yes, my fault. My apologies.
24 JUDGE KWON: Yes, could hear. Thank you.
25 That concludes your evidence, Mr. Blaszczyk. Thank you for your
1 testimony again. Now you are free to go, but could you bear with me.
2 There's a very brief short ruling the Chamber wishes to issue now.
3 Immediately after the recent filing of the "Sixth Order on Chart
4 of Protective Measures for Witnesses," it was brought to the Chamber's
5 attention that the protective measures in place for two of the witnesses
6 referred to in the chart, KDZ494 and KDZ515, have been augmented in other
7 proceedings, and that the protective measures for KDZ555 have been
8 varied, also in other proceedings. The Chamber recalls the Prosecution's
9 obligation to "immediately inform the Chamber and the accused when there
10 is a variation of the protective measures in place for any of the
11 witnesses in the chart." The Chamber therefore orders that Prosecution
12 provide accurate information as to the protective measures currently in
13 place for witnesses KDZ494, KDZ515, and KDZ555, no later than Monday, 30
14 January 2012. The Chamber takes this opportunity to reiterate that it is
15 absolutely crucial for the Prosecution to keep an accurate record to all
16 variations to protective measures of witnesses in this case and to inform
17 the Chamber accordingly.
18 We'll take a break now for half an hour and resume at 1 -- 10 to
20 [The witness withdrew]
21 --- Recess taken at 12.20 p.m.
22 --- On resuming at 12.52 p.m.
23 [The witness entered court]
24 JUDGE KWON: Good afternoon, Mr. Ruez. Could you make the solemn
1 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
2 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
3 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Please make yourself comfortable.
4 WITNESS: JEAN-RENE RUEZ
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Mitchell.
6 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Examination by Mr. Mitchell:
8 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Ruez.
9 A. Good afternoon.
10 Q. Could you please state and spell your full name.
11 A. My name is Jean-Rene Ruez, R-u-e-z.
12 Q. Before we start, can you just describe what that material is in
13 front of you?
14 A. This is a book that was handed to me by the Prosecution and that
15 has all the photographs related to events I'm supposed to talk about.
16 Q. And the other sheet of paper?
17 A. It's the list of the main witnesses with their code-name.
18 MR. MITCHELL: Mr. President, we've provided Mr. Ruez with the
19 pseudonyms of the witnesses who he will be referring to in the course of
20 his evidence.
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Thank you.
22 MR. MITCHELL:
23 Q. Mr. Ruez, what is your current profession?
24 A. I am -- I am chief superintendent in the French national police.
25 Q. And going back about 15 years, you worked for the Office of the
1 Prosecutor from the 7th of April, 1995, to the 7th of April 2001; is that
3 A. That is correct.
4 Q. And for part of that time you were the team leader for the
5 Srebrenica investigation?
6 A. Yes, I was.
7 Q. Okay. We'll come to that in a minute, but if you can just
8 briefly outline for us your educational background and then your career
9 in the French police force.
10 A. Yes. I joined the police as a superintendent in 1986. I worked
11 for the judicial police until I joined the Tribunal in April 1995, so
12 until 2001, and after that I took a leave of absence for two years and
13 then worked for the directorate of an international corporation first in
14 Paris. And since 2008, I am working for -- as a police attache in a
15 French embassy abroad.
16 Q. Is it correct that you also did a year of military service at
17 some stage?
18 A. Yes. I was a reserve officer. I did my military service as an
19 officer in 1980.
20 Q. And you've also completed a law degree; is that correct?
21 A. Yes, absolutely. That was in 1985.
22 Q. Now, coming to when you joined the Office of the Prosecutor in
23 April 1995, how did that come about? How was it that you came to join
24 the Tribunal?
25 A. There was an appeal for volunteers, and I applied in 1994 and was
1 recruited in 1995. I was initially in a team investigating the siege of
2 Sarajevo, and in July 1995, as soon as the enclave fell, I was tasked to
3 go in the area and start investigation that was connected with the press
4 rumours about the disappearance of thousands of men. And I never stopped
5 working on this investigation until my -- my departure in April 2001.
6 Q. When did you first go to the area of Srebrenica after you heard
7 those press rumours?
8 A. I was sent there -- I think I arrived in Tuzla area in -- on or
9 about 20 July 1995.
10 Q. And what did you do there?
11 A. The first step was to find out what had happened, so by
12 interviewing witnesses who came from that area, from the Srebrenica area.
13 Q. Can you briefly outline for us the phases that the investigation
14 went through in the following years up to your departure in April 2001?
15 A. I often compare this investigation to the construction of a
16 house, where you need first to have foundations, then build the walls and
17 at the end build the roof. So the first phase was to reconstruct the
18 events in their chronology, so by interviewing witnesses who escaped from
19 the area, including the top witnesses who claimed having survived mass
20 executions, but also the UN personnel who were in the enclave as well as
21 collecting all open sources on the topic including videos.
22 The second phase, the construction of the walls, is to
23 corroborate or infirm [sic] the declarations of these witnesses, so by
24 finding the locations we're talking about, so mainly detention sites.
25 Also then the execution sites, the initial burial spots of the ones that
1 we call the primary mass graves, and since these graves had been
2 disturbed, also find and identify them as such the secondary mass graves.
3 Once this could be achieved then came the final phase, the roof,
4 meaning the identification of the perpetrators by a process of conducting
5 searches in military facilities in order to collect documentation, but
6 also recover all the available intercepts, communication intercepts that
7 were done during the time of the events, and also getting into an
8 interview process of the military personnel suspected to be involved as
9 well as police personnel.
10 So at the end, once these phases are completed, the heating
11 system can be activated, which is indictments and bringing to justice
12 these indictees and the trial phase.
13 Q. You mentioned searches in military facilities. I want to ask you
14 briefly about two of them. First the Bratunac Brigade. Can you describe
15 to us how the Office of the Prosecutor first came across that site.
16 A. We came across the Bratunac Brigade in the early stages, in 1996,
17 but the situation was at that time absolutely not ripe enough to be able
18 to conduct any search in this location. So, alike the Zvornik Brigade,
19 who were the two -- the two brigades most likely to be suspect, this
20 search could only be done in 1998.
21 Q. Did you seize anything when you went to the Bratunac Brigade in
23 A. We took most of the records from the headquarters, but we quickly
24 found out through the military analysis of all what was captured there
25 that the -- the main archives connected with July 1995 were missing.
1 Q. And what about the initial search in 1996? Did you seize
2 anything at all when you went there then?
3 A. Yes. At that time, we -- we searched a container that was
4 outside of the HQ and seized a bunch of blue helmets which were located
5 there and that had been taken from the UN soldiers when the enclave was
6 taken over by the Bosnian Serb Army.
7 Q. And final question on this area. What was the security situation
8 like in those early years, 1995, 1996, 1997?
9 A. The security situation was - how could I say? - volatile. For
10 sure I mean the peace was officially implemented, but nevertheless, all
11 the military structures of those involved in the summer 1995 events were
12 still around, as well as the local political personnel and also the
14 Q. Can I turn your attention now to the book of photos that's in
15 front of you. What is this book, Mr. Ruez?
16 A. It's the book with all the photographs we are going to go through
18 Q. Who took these photos, and who selected them for this book?
19 A. I took most of them, as well as did the maps which are in them.
20 This is a selection that was made for previous trials and then has been
21 expurged of some which are less relevant for this case, but I didn't do
22 the selection for this trial.
23 Q. Okay. If we can turn to photo 1 in the book. That's page 11 in
24 e-court. Or map number 1. Sorry, it's 65 ter 3199.
25 Mr. Ruez, we're looking at a map that's covering the area from
1 Zeleni Jadar in the south up to Kula in the north. Is this map to scale?
2 A. Yes, it is to scale. The scale is bottom right. This map shows,
3 in fact, the entire -- entire area where the events took place from north
4 to south. It's more or less the size of the area of responsibility of
5 the Drina Corps.
6 Q. And just around where that blue box is in the bottom right-hand
7 corner, you see a faint grey line in the same area. Can you tell us what
8 that is?
9 A. Yes. This is the area where the UN safe area of Srebrenica was
11 Q. Can we please go to the next page, photo 2, page 12, in e-court.
12 Mr. Ruez, if you can explain what's in this photograph and which
13 direction we're looking at it from?
14 A. Mm-hmm. So this photograph shows the -- part of the Srebrenica
15 town seen from the south, coming from Zeleni Jadar towards Srebrenica
16 town. So how to see, but it is a stretched town in between two -- two
18 Q. How far is it from Potocari to Srebrenica?
19 A. Approximately 5K.
20 Q. And do you recall when this photo was taken?
21 A. The one at the left --
22 Q. It's photo number 2?
23 A. Yes, photo number 2 and maybe also number 3, they were not taken
24 on the same mission, but the one on the right, the number 3, is 1998.
25 It's a photograph that I took from a helicopter that shows the centre of
1 the town.
2 Q. If I can stop you there. Why don't we go to the next page, photo
3 number 3, page 13 in e-court.
4 A. That's another view of the town to -- to show the same thing.
5 Q. So as we can see in the top, heading towards the top right-hand
6 corner of the picture, the town is disappearing into the distance. What
7 direction that?
8 A. This is the direction of Potocari and then Bratunac.
9 Q. Okay. If we can turn to the next page, photo number 4.
10 Actually, the next two pages in your book are maps. If you can explain
11 what we're looking at in this map and what the significance of the green
12 arrow is.
13 A. So this map shows the situation that happened at moment of the
14 fall of the enclave, 11 July 1995. A large group of people decided to
15 leave the -- the enclave, and they took the direction of the north of the
16 safe area, an area named Susnjari, where they gathered waiting for the
17 night and with the intent then to -- to cross the line and flee the area.
18 Q. And what's the basis of your knowledge that people went to that
20 A. This is based on the interviews of those who took the -- who were
21 among those who took the decision to -- not to stay but attempted to
22 leave the area. This group is assessed to be approximately made of
23 15.000 people, at least a third of them being the members of the
24 28th Division, which was the military unit inside the enclave and still
25 military equipped despite of official demilitarisation of the place. The
1 rest being unarmed [Realtime transcript read in error "armed"] civilians
2 for most of them.
3 Q. Okay. And if you can explain to us briefly what that grey shaded
4 line is and the yellow lettered dots that we can see.
5 A. The -- the grey line is the, in brackets, boundary of this safe
6 area, which had no official boundary but it was a de facto boundary. And
7 the yellow dots spot the observation points of the UN force inside the
9 Q. Can we go to the next map, page 5 in the book and page 15 in
11 A. So this -- this situation -- this map shows the other course of
12 action that was taken by those who stayed inside the enclave when it
13 fell. And this mass of people decided to find some security by getting
14 close to the UN base that was located in Potocari.
15 Q. Thank you. We're going to look at a short video now. It's
16 65 ter 40063, and we just have a short excerpt of that.
17 Mr. Ruez, we're going to play this without sound, and if you can
18 just describe to us what we're seeing as we watch this video.
19 [Video-clip played]
20 THE WITNESS: So this is a helicopter film showing how the area
21 looks like. This is filmed coming from south to north, so from
22 Zeleni Jadar towards Srebrenica town. The -- the road that one can see
23 is the -- the road that the Bosnian Serb Army took to enter the area.
24 So this is the overflying of the Srebrenica town, embedded
25 between these hills.
1 MR. MITCHELL:
2 Q. And which direction are we looking in?
3 A. From south to north. So at this moment flying above centre town
4 in the direction of Potocari, and then it continues on a straight line
5 nearly towards Bratunac. This is the centre town. And now flying
6 towards Potocari.
7 This is the building of the UN base, the Bravo Company. And this
8 is the direction of Potocari and totally at the distance would be
10 MR. MITCHELL: Can I tender at that clip, please, Mr. President.
11 It's 65 ter 40063A.
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes. That will be admitted.
13 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P4279, Your Honours.
14 THE PROSECUTOR:
15 Q. Mr. Ruez, just one transcript clarification. At page 68, line 4,
16 you were talking about the column of 15.000 people in Susnjari and you
17 said that at least a third of them being the members of the
18 28th Division. "The rest being armed civilians for the most of them."
19 Is that what you said?
20 A. No, it is not. What I said is that the rest of them were for
21 most of them unarmed civilians.
22 Q. Can we please go back to 65 ter 3199 and go to page 14 in
23 e-court. That's photo number 4. My apologies. Page 16 in e-court and
24 photo 6.
25 JUDGE KWON: Shall we switch to e-court.
1 MR. MITCHELL:
2 Q. Mr. Ruez, can you tell us what this black and white image is and
3 where the investigation got it from.
4 A. This is an aerial photograph provided by the US showing the
5 location of Potocari on which I did put the yellow markings in order to
6 identify the -- mainly -- the mostly locations witnesses refer to.
7 Q. Who put the date on that?
8 A. The date was on the initial photograph we received through the
9 US State Department.
10 Q. And does this apply to the other aerial images we're going to
11 look at, that the header and the date come from the provider?
12 A. Yes. All -- all what will be on inside white frames will be on
13 the -- is on the initial photograph provided by the US.
14 Q. Can we please go to the next page, photo 7, page 17 in e-court.
15 Now, starting with the object circled in white in the middle of
16 the photo, can you describe what that is?
17 A. Yes. This is the -- the place that we always refer to as the
18 white house. This is a detention site, I think the detention site in
19 Potocari. During the deportation of the population, there was a line of
20 soldiers who were separating the men from their families, and these men
21 were taken to this location, and from there, group after groups put on
22 board of buses to be taken in detention at Bratunac town.
23 Q. And what's the basis of your knowledge?
24 A. Several persons who ended up surviving went through this place.
25 The selection process was done under the eyes -- the separation process,
1 sorry, under the eyes of the UN soldiers. We also have video footage of
2 the men who were identified by name later on and who were marched
3 towards -- towards this location.
4 This location was also visited by UN military observer,
5 Major Kingori from Kenya, who entered this location together with
6 General Mladic who was on the spot that day.
7 Q. Thank you. Can you just orient us on this picture. The --
8 starting with the road down the very bottom in the left-hand corner.
9 Where is this road coming from?
10 A. At the bottom of the picture, the road is coming from Srebrenica
11 towards Potocari, leading to this big building which was a battery
12 factory before the war, and then the road continues towards Bratunac
14 Q. And that's up in the top right-hand corner of the photo.
15 A. Yes. It's the blue box.
16 Q. Can we please go to page 18 in e-court. It's photo number 8.
17 And, Mr. Ruez, if you can firstly tell us what this is and then
18 what time of year this photo was taken.
19 A. This photo shows the -- it's another view of the so-called
20 white house. It is the first picture of it that I could take from the
21 ground. It was a mission done in wintertime, as you can see, in
22 January 1996.
23 Q. If we can go to the next page, photo 9, and page 19, in e-court.
24 We're going to see a split image.
25 Mr. Ruez, if you can explain the significance of this split
2 A. Yes. Before we could access the photograph on the top, we had no
3 material evidence that could confirm the testimonies saying that there
4 were prisoners in this house that was so full that, as Major Kingori
5 said, the people are sitting on top each of another, and also the balcony
6 was used to store these men.
7 The photo at the bottom shows the location where the men are
8 filmed at the top, and the picture at the top is one of the ones we named
9 "the lost pictures." There was a Serb journalist from Studio B on the --
10 in the area when the enclave fell. We could access his footage, that is
11 labelled V550 by the Prosecution, but in which Zoran Petkovic, the
12 journalist, did initially cut off all the bits that could assist the
13 Tribunal to better understand the situation and all those that were
14 connected with ongoing crimes or future crimes were erased by him.
15 Q. Now, that reference to V550, that's an ERN number; is that
16 correct? That's the Prosecution's ERN number?
17 A. The V550?
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. Yes, it's the Prosecution number of the entire footage of
20 Zoran Petrovic without -- I mean, with the cuts.
21 Q. Thank you. If we can go to page 10. That's page 20 in e-court.
22 And this is another map. And now we can see a black arrow pointing from
23 Potocari towards Bratunac. What does this arrow show?
24 A. This arrow shows the direction taken by the men who were
25 separated and taken to the white house during 12 and 13 July, who were
1 taken to Bratunac town.
2 Q. Thank you. Can we please go to the next page, photo 11, and
3 page 21 in e-court.
4 If you can describe what this aerial image shows.
5 A. This one shows the first detention spot where the prisoners were
6 taken to, which is, in fact, the Vuk Karadzic school complex in Bratunac
8 Q. What's the specific name of that building that's circled in blue?
9 A. This is a hangar that is just behind the school. This is the
10 location where one of the survivors was taken to.
11 Q. And how did you first come to learn about this hangar?
12 A. Several witnesses talked about the school area, and when we went
13 there, we also found this hangar that seemed to match with the
14 description made by one survivor and who confirmed the fact that this was
15 indeed the place he had been kept inside when we showed him the
17 Q. If we can go to the next page. I think it's photo 12. The next
18 one, sorry. Number 13, page 23 in e-court.
19 If you can describe what this structure is?
20 A. This is a ground view of the hangar we were talking about.
21 Q. Are there other buildings of significance to the investigation
22 that are located nearby to this hangar?
23 A. Yes. I think we'll go through them at a later stage, but there
24 are three buildings of relevance just in this place; the first one being
25 the Vuk Karadzic school, next to it a gym, and at the right of this
1 photograph is another building that is named the older school, which is a
2 technical school. All these places having been used for detaining
3 prisoners. Since these places were full, many of them stayed during the
4 night on board of buses and trucks that were lined in several locations
5 in Bratunac town.
6 Q. We'll come to that later. Do you recall when this photo was
8 A. Yes. It's visible at the bottom right of the picture I have. I
9 don't know if it is visible on the screen, but it is in June 1996.
10 Q. Can we move to the map on page 14, page 24 in e-court.
11 Mr. Ruez, what we see now is a map with a black arrow pointing
12 from the Susnjari area towards Konjevic Polje. What does this indicate?
13 A. This is the direction of flight of those who fled the area. They
14 started the journey during the night between the 11 and the 12. Most of
15 the 28th Division left first, the civilians following behind. It was a
16 long column since they first went through an opening made in a minefield,
17 and this column stretched along this area of hills.
18 Q. If I can just stop you there. What is this terrain like? Can
19 you describe that to us? Between Susnjari and Konjevic Polje.
20 A. We could have a feeling of how it looks like when we saw the
21 video from helicopter. It's -- it's a hilly area in this location, and
22 this column in fact walked behind a hill line all along the road that
23 goes from Bratunac towards the -- the west direction, Konjevic Polje.
24 Q. Okay. Can we go to the next page, page 15, page 25 in e-court.
25 If you can describe the significance of the yellow arrow that we see
1 towards the top of the picture.
2 A. As I just said, in fact, you can see at the bottom first the
3 road, the asphalt road that goes from Bratunac to Konjevic Polje, and the
4 column of those who were fleeing went behind this -- this hill so to be
5 out of sight of the military forces that were along this road. So behind
6 the hills towards the direction of Konjevic Polje. That was during the
7 12th July.
8 Q. Can we please go to the next page. Photo 16, page 26 in e-court.
9 If you can explain first the arrow pointing towards Nova Kasaba, what
10 that means.
11 A. Mm-hmm. So this is the last hill before arriving at the
12 intersection of Konjevic Polje where the asphalt road turns to the south
13 in direction of Nova Kasaba and to the north direction Zvornik. So this
14 is the place where this column intended to cross the asphalt road.
15 The -- the big army group at the front was successful doing that on the
16 evening of the 12th July, but those who were behind did not make this
17 crossing because of military reinforcements, and so all this large group
18 was trapped behind and for many of them were blocked on top of this big
19 hill on the -- on the photograph, those others being far behind, not
20 having even reached this spot by the end of the 12.
21 Q. What's the name of the area where this hill is that we can see on
22 the left? If you recall.
23 A. It's -- I don't know if it has a specific name. We call it the
24 hill overlooking Konjevici, Konjevici being the area where the village
25 Konjevic Polje is.
1 Q. And where exactly -- which direction would the Konjevic Polje
2 intersection be in?
3 A. It's at the west of Bratunac at approximately 15 kilometres
4 from -- from Bratunac.
5 Q. And on this photo can you see the actual intersection?
6 A. On this one that is on the screen, no, because it is -- it would
7 be just at the -- at the right of the photograph.
8 Q. So is the black arrow that is pointing towards the Konjevic Polje
9 intersection, is that pointing in the right direction or is the
10 intersection actually the other way?
11 A. No. In fact, the -- it points towards the intersection, but by
12 continuing to the left where it is written "Konjevic Polje intersection,"
13 this goes to Bratunac, and at Konjevic Polje you have another direction
14 that goes towards Zvornik. We will see that more clearly on the
15 following photograph, 17.
16 Q. If we can go to the next photograph. It's page 27 in e-court.
17 And if you can explain to us firstly what this group of houses is that we
18 see on the right. What's that called?
19 A. So this view is the one one has when being on the hill, not on
20 the top but at the bottom of the hill, where you can see on the right the
21 asphalt road going towards the north, the top of the picture, would lead
22 to go towards Zvornik --
23 Q. Sorry, if I can stop you there. What about the road going to the
24 right of the picture? Where does that take you to?
25 A. The bottom right is the direction of Bratunac.
1 Q. And to the left?
2 A. And the bottom left is the direction of Nova Kasaba. The arrow,
3 the yellow arrow points the direction that was one of the spearhead of
4 the column. It is crossing this asphalt road and going then to --
5 continuing to the east towards the valley of Cerska.
6 Q. Well, we'll come to the Cerska Valley shortly. If we can go to
7 the next page, page 18, page 28 in e-court. This is a map called
8 "Prisoners of war, regroupment sites, 13 July 1995."
9 Can you explain what aspect of the investigation this map relates
11 A. So on 13 July the two processes are finalised, one being the
12 capture of the prisoners, the situation I described, for example, in
13 Potocari. Then you also have the end of the deportation process that was
14 during the 12 and the 13, where the people were shipped towards
15 Muslim-held territory at Kladanj. That is completely at the left of the
16 photograph -- of the map. So in the west direction. Where another
17 process of separation of men who had managed to get on board of buses
18 took place. And you mainly have that day a massive surrender process of
19 all those who were among this -- this column of men fleeing towards
20 Konjevic Polje and who in the morning of the following days, or the 13,
21 surrendered massively to the Serb forces who were all along this asphalt
22 road going along from Bratunac to Nova Kasaba. So this map shows the
23 main spots where these prisoners were initially kept that day.
24 Q. Thank you. Now, what's the first of those sites that we're going
25 to look at in the following pages?
1 A. So the first one is on page 19.
2 Q. If we can go over one more page. That's page 29 in e-court. I
3 think we can see the blue dot on the very far left of the picture.
4 A. Mm-hmm.
5 Q. Is that the first site that we're going to look at?
6 A. Yes. This spot is just at the -- at the east of the line of
7 Kladanj, which is the separation line between RS and BiH, and the men who
8 were separated at this final spot before reaching the Muslim-held
9 territory were taken to an elementary school which is named the Luke
11 Q. Now, how did you first become aware that men had been held at the
12 Luke school?
13 A. This information came from one man who had been taken to this
14 location and who further survived the events and could testify about
16 Q. Is his name on that list in front of you, and if so, would you
17 able to read out his pseudonym?
18 A. Yes. He is the witness KDZ070.
19 Q. Thank you. If we can go to page 20 in the book, page 30 in
21 Mr. Ruez, if you can explain to us what this building is that we
22 see here.
23 A. Mm-hmm. So this building along the road that leads, if we would
24 continue this road, leads to the direction of Kladanj. So the men came
25 from this road and were taken to this small building which is the
1 elementary school of Luke.
2 Q. How did you find the school?
3 A. We drove to this area together with the witness I was referring
5 Q. And what year was that, if you recall?
6 A. I'm not sure but it was quite late. It was -- it might be in
7 1998, I'm not hundred per cent sure. It could be 1997.
8 Q. Now, in the Srebrenica trial video which the Trial Chamber has
9 seen, there's footage of a drop-off point in Luke where the people were
10 dropped off the buses and walked to Kladanj. How far is this school from
11 that drop-off point?
12 A. Maybe 1 kilometre.
13 Q. If we can go to the next page, page 21 in the hard copy, 31 in
14 e-court. What are we looking at in this photo?
15 A. This is a rear view of this little building that shows the
16 position that the witness designated to me when he explained that
17 initially the group in which he was was sitting in between the two trees
18 at the left of the photograph before being taken inside the school.
19 Q. So just to be clear, this is a photo of the school. That's the
20 school building on the left of the photo?
21 A. Absolutely.
22 Q. Thank you. Can we go to the next page, page 22, page 32 in
24 And what does this photo show?
25 A. This photograph shows the classroom that he describes where he
1 was held together with others and where he was beaten.
2 MR. MITCHELL: Mr. President, that might be a good place to stop.
3 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
4 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Mitchell, given that we should adjourn tomorrow
5 at 1.15, so with the indulgence of the staff, we may go today until
6 quarter past 2.00 if parties do not object. Half an hour more.
7 MR. MITCHELL: It's fine from our end, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson.
9 MR. ROBINSON: That's fine, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Ruez, would it be okay with you as well?
11 THE WITNESS: Perfectly okay.
12 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
13 MR. MITCHELL:
14 Q. If we can go it page 23 in the book, page 33 in e-court. If you
15 can tell us what next site is that we're going look at.
16 A. This is another area where prisoners were initially regrouped in
17 the area of Nova Kasaba where there are two main spots of initial
19 Q. Can we please go to the next page, 24 in the book, 34 in e-court.
20 Now, this is another aerial image. It says "Buses at facility,
21 Nova Kasaba, 13 July 1995." Now, this image also has a time on it. Can
22 you explain what that wavy line in front of the time means.
23 A. The wavy line indicates that it's an approximate time,
24 approximately 2.00 p.m.
25 Q. And what's the significance of this site in the photo? What's
1 its significance to the investigation?
2 A. So it is a location that was the base of the 65th Protection
3 Regiment of the Bosnian Serb Army. Dutch soldiers were kept inside, and
4 this is how we know that it was also used as a detention site, and in
5 front of them one can also see the presence of three buses.
6 Q. And just to clarify, did you put those yellow markings on this
8 A. Yes, I did.
9 Q. Can we please go to the next page, page 25, page 35 in e-court.
10 And if you can describe what we can see in this photo.
11 A. This is a photograph taken from the road at that goes from
12 Nova Kasaba, in fact, to -- more to the south, to a little town named
13 Milici, and this is a ground view of the building we could see on the
14 aerial imagery.
15 Q. Page 28 and page 38 in e-court, please. We're looking at another
16 aerial image here.
17 Mr. Ruez, can you explain what, if anything, is significant about
18 this particular image.
19 A. That's at page 28. Okay. It is a close shot of what is in fact,
20 but we will see it better on other pictures, a football pitch. It's a
21 football pitch squared by a tree line all around. And the grey areas,
22 one rectangle and one thin rectangle at the left of this football pitch
23 are groups of people which, in fact, are the prisoners who have
24 surrendered in this area and have been brought to this soccer field of
25 Nova Kasaba.
1 Q. Whose conclusion is that at the top of the image where it says
2 "People at football field"? Was that your conclusion or was that put on
3 there by the provider?
4 A. It was put on the picture by the provider, and it matches
5 testimonies that we have on the spot, and it also matches the
6 observations that we could have on the spot when figuring out the size of
7 these dots compared with the size a man would have on this aerial
9 Q. Can we please go --
10 JUDGE KWON: So is the right direction to the -- to
11 Konjevic Polje?
12 THE WITNESS: Absolutely, sir.
13 JUDGE KWON: And left being to Bratunac.
14 THE WITNESS: No. The left towards Nova Kasaba. The
15 intersection being at the right towards Konjevic Polje and then it's in
16 Konjevic Polje that --
17 JUDGE KWON: Can you see page 27, e-court 37?
18 MR. MITCHELL:
19 Q. Mr. Ruez, it's correct that the football field we see here is
20 located on the Konjevic Polje-Milici road?
21 A. Yes. Before Milici and before Nova Kasaba. Nova Kasaba is at
22 the left of the road maybe 1 -- 1 kilometre left.
23 Q. And if you kept following the photo we're looking at now,
24 photo 27, if you followed that road down where it exits out the bottom
25 right, where would that lead you to?
1 A. That would lead to the intersection of Konjevic Polje.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 A. And then turning right towards Bratunac and going straight would
4 go towards Zvornik.
5 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
6 MR. MITCHELL:
7 Q. Now, if we can go to page 29, 39 in e-court.
8 JUDGE KWON: What bus convoy does this refer to then? Can you go
9 back to page 27.
10 THE WITNESS: So the buses that can be seen on the road are
11 buses --
12 JUDGE KWON: It's moving from -- they are moving from where to
14 THE WITNESS: Two options. Either are they moving at this
15 moment, because it's the 13th, still evacuating people from the enclave
16 towards Kladanj. In that case they would be full of people, but we
17 cannot see. And the other option, they return empty from Kladanj towards
18 Srebrenica to continue -- to continue the deportation process.
19 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Can you go back to page 23.
20 MR. MITCHELL: That's page 33 in e-court.
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please. So the football pitch is the bigger
23 THE WITNESS: Yes. The small circle is the 26 -- 56th Protection
25 JUDGE KWON: 65th.
1 THE WITNESS: 65th, and the big circle is the football pitch.
2 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Mitchell.
3 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 Q. If we can go back to page 29, page 39 in e-court. If you can
5 briefly describe this photo to us, or first can you orient us on this
6 road that we can see running up the middle.
7 A. Mm-hmm.
8 Q. As the road heads out the top of the picture, where does that go
10 A. At the top it goes to Nova Kasaba, and at the bottom towards the
11 intersection of Konjevic Polje.
12 Q. And what's the -- the area we see on the right-hand side of the
14 A. So this is a helicopter photograph -- photograph taken from a
15 helicopter of the same football pitch we could see on the aerial imagery.
16 Q. Thank you. If we could go to the next photo now, 30, and page 40
17 in e-court. What does this photo show, Mr. Ruez?
18 A. On -- this photo it was taken in April 1996. The man on the
19 photo is, in fact, dog handlers of the Bosnian Serb Army. It shows how
20 it was at the early stages. The interest of them is to make sure that
21 the grey zones marked as people are indeed not vegetation as one
22 defendant previously implied this would be. There are no trees or
23 whatsoever on this football pitch.
24 Q. Thank you. If we can go to page 31 now, page 41 in e-court. And
25 this is another map we're about to see, and we can see a blue dot near
1 Konjevic Polje. Can you describe what the next site we're going to look
2 at is?
3 A. So this is an additional regroupment site in this area which is
4 precisely located at the intersection of Konjevic Polje.
5 Q. And how did you learn of this particular site?
6 A. Mainly through one witness who was taken to that spot and later
7 survived to report about what happened to him.
8 Q. Can you see his witness code on that list in front of you?
9 A. Yes. He is KDZ065. 065.
10 Q. Can we please go to the next page. It's page 32, number 42 in
11 e-court. Mr. Ruez, this is another aerial image dated 27 July 1995. Can
12 you explain the significance of the blue circle in the very centre of the
14 A. So this is an aerial photograph of a military facility just --
15 just at the very short distance, I mean, let's say, 400 or 500 metres
16 away from the intersection. It is the first spot where the witness I
17 just referred to was taken. He was taken initially to the guardhouse of
18 this unit, which is the 5th Engineer Battalion of the Bosnian Serb Army,
19 and from there he was taken to a few other spots of this -- in this
20 facility but which are not relevant to enter into detail on this one.
21 Q. Did you go to the site with this witness?
22 A. Yes, indeed. We redo -- we redid the circuit that he was made to
23 do that day.
24 Q. If we can go to the next page, photo 33, page 43 in e-court. If
25 you can explain what this building is that we can see in the photo.
1 A. Mm-hmm. This is the ground view of the entrance of the
2 5th Engineer Battalion with the little guardhouse at the left of the
4 Q. Next page, please, page 34, page 44 in e-court. If you can
5 describe this photo to us, Mr. Ruez.
6 A. Yes. So from the 5th Engineer Battalion, the witness and a group
7 of people with who he was surrendering were taken to what he names a
8 warehouse at the intersection. When we came with him, there was no
9 more -- no longer any warehouse but it's replaced by a gas station. But
10 from a photograph I took in April 1996, we will see it on another
11 picture, this one is from April 1997, but at that time the hangar was
12 still there and it is indeed the one where he was taken to.
13 Q. And you said this is at the intersection. Which intersection is
14 this, just to be clear?
15 A. It is the intersection of Konjevic Polje.
16 Q. So the road leading to the right of the picture goes in which
18 A. The road to the right where the blue line is goes to the right to
19 Bratunac. Once at the intersection to the left to Nova Kasaba and to the
20 top towards Zvornik.
21 Q. If we can go to the next page, page 35, 45 in e-court. And if
22 you can briefly describe to us what this building on the left of the
23 photo is.
24 A. So this is the so-called hangar in -- at the intersection of
25 Konjevic Polje.
1 Q. And just to be clear, this initial visit, the witness wasn't with
2 you at this time; is that right?
3 A. Yes, correct. He was not with us. It was the -- I mean,
4 whether -- I didn't take this picture for the sake of this demonstration.
5 It was someone -- a picture that I found later on but where the hangar is
7 Q. Okay. Let's move to another site, page 36 in your book, page 46
8 in e-court. Now, which site are the next series of photos related to?
9 A. So this is the main site of gathering of prisoners during the day
10 of 13 July. It's the so-called Sandici area. There were a few spots of
11 surrendering in this place, but all these prisoners were taken initially
12 to Sandici meadow.
13 Q. Well, let's move to the next page, page 37, 47 in e-court. And
14 if you can explain just briefly what significance of these two yellow
15 markings are.
16 A. Mm-hmm. This is -- this photograph is to show precisely where a
17 scene of the video V550 was shot and on which one can see people in the
18 surrender process coming from the top of this hill. On the V550 you can
19 see them coming at the top of the hill in the yellow rectangle at the
20 right and also visible on the video the electric pylon which is circled
21 in yellow.
22 Q. And that V550 is the Zoran Petrovic footage; is that correct?
23 A. This is correct.
24 Q. Could we please go to next page, page 38, 48 in e-court. Now
25 there's two photos on this page. Could you explain to us what we're
1 looking at in these two images.
2 A. So this is the view from close to the asphalt road where the
3 Bosnian Serb was present, and the men were on the top of the hills, and
4 they took the path that can be seen on the photograph at the right, the
5 path down in order to surrender at this -- at this spot.
6 Q. When were these photos taken, if you recall?
7 A. These ones were most certainly taken in 1996, summer 1996.
8 Q. If we can go to the next page, page 39, page 49 in e-court. If
9 you can briefly explain what we're looking at here.
10 A. So this is the direction those who were coming downhill, this is
11 the spot they were reaching. We call it the destroyed house. We refer
12 it as such in the following photographs. And they were marching at the
13 left to go towards the left of this building. It is also visible on the
14 Zoran Petrovic video.
15 Q. And was this photo also taken in the summer of 1996?
16 A. I would think so. Anyhow, this location did not change in the
17 following years, I mean, at least this part of the location, aside the
18 grass growing. So this is why I think it might be 1996, because there is
19 still not so much vegetation there.
20 Q. Can we please go to the next page, page 51 in e-court, page 41 in
21 the book. And we're looking at another aerial image which labelled
22 "Group of people, Sandici, 13 July 1995," and a time of 1400 hours. Can
23 you explain what we're looking at here?
24 A. The yellow dotted line is the path --
25 JUDGE KWON: Can we see the next page. You said 41,
1 Mr. Mitchell.
2 THE WITNESS: Yeah, 41.
3 MR. MITCHELL: Yes, Mr. President.
4 THE WITNESS: The yellow dotted line is the path that the
5 surrendering people took to come downhill towards the asphalt road,
6 passing next to the house I refer to as being the so-called destroyed
7 house, and taken to the meadow on the opposite side of the asphalt road,
8 seen perfectly clear in the Zoran Petrovic video. And the spotted
9 destroyed houses are spotted because also referred to by surviving
10 witnesses who said that these are the houses where the wounded were taken
12 MR. MITCHELL:
13 Q. And can you confirm who put those yellow markings on this image?
14 A. I put the yellow markings, the white boxes being the one of the
16 Q. Can we go to the next page, please, page 42, page 52 in e-court.
17 If you can explain what we can see in this image.
18 A. In fact, we see the same thing than on the previous one but a
19 closer shot, with this grey zone representing the group of people who
20 were assembled on this meadow at that hour.
21 Q. Next page, please, page 43 in the book, page 53 in e-court.
22 My first question, Mr. Ruez, is who took this photo and when?
23 A. I took this photo but in 1998. By then there was a corn field on
24 this spot, but we had processed this meadow in 1996 - there is a video of
25 it - where we collected a certain number of items, including identity
1 documents of people whom -- who ended up being missing, on the missing
2 list from Srebrenica.
3 Q. And what's -- sorry. What's the significance of the yellow
4 markings we can see on the photo?
5 A. The marking spots approximately the area where the people that
6 can be seen on the aerial imagery were sitting. In fact, I made it
7 smaller than it is on the picture, but it's an assessment of more or less
8 where they were sitting.
9 Q. Can we go to the next page, please, number 44, page 54 in
11 If you can explain the significance of this inset image that we
12 can see there.
13 A. The insert is a still -- still photograph extracted from the
14 video of Mr. Petrovic where --
15 Q. And --
16 A. -- where a group of soldiers close up on this group of prisoners,
17 and the precise location where this close shot refers to is the area
18 squared in yellow on the -- on the photograph.
19 Q. How did you determine that that was the exact area where that
20 piece of footage from Zoran Petrovic was taken?
21 A. It's easier to figure out when seeing the video, because on the
22 video one can see the people passing by the destroyed house, crossing the
23 asphalt road, going up through the little path -- that is just under the
24 yellow square. And by being on the ground, you can without any mistake
25 spot the location where the men on the still photograph were at this
1 moment sitting.
2 Q. Can we please go to page 45, page 55 in e-court.
3 Mr. Ruez, we've talked about the Luke school earlier. Can you
4 explain the significance of the red dot on this map that we can see just
5 above Vlasenica?
6 A. Yes. So now we are entering in another phase. That means that
7 after having run through the detention -- first detention site, then we
8 are hitting the execution sites.
9 The prisoner who was taken to Luke school claims having then been
10 taken on board of a little truck, driven towards the direction of
11 Vlasenica, then the truck went in the direction of the north. It's also
12 an area of little hills. We brought him to this area, but the places
13 more or less all look a bit the same, especially that he had no precise
14 reference point and it was night, so we never found, in fact, the place
15 where he claims having been -- of having been able to escape prior being
17 Q. So this red dot is just an approximation of the area he said he
18 was taken to?
19 A. Yes, it's a purely approximate area, just somewhere north of
21 Q. And can you take a look at that list of witness codes in front of
22 you and just tell us again the witness code --
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. -- of that individual.
25 A. He is KDZ070.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MR. MITCHELL: Mr. President, that might be an appropriate place
3 to stop.
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes. The hearing is adjourned until tomorrow, 9.00.
5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.14 p.m.,
6 to be reconvened on Friday, the 27th day
7 of January, 2012, at 9.00.