1 Friday, 27 January 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everyone. Bonjour, Mr. Ruez.
7 THE WITNESS: Bonjour, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE KWON: Before we begin today, the Chamber will issue a
9 brief oral ruling. On 13th January, 2012, the Chamber ordered that the
10 United Kingdom's motion to reclassify response to invitation to the
11 United Kingdom filed on 10th of January, 2012, be reclassified as public.
12 On 20th of January, 2012, the UK filed the United Kingdom of
13 Great Britain and Northern Ireland's response to the submissions
14 regarding the reclassification of its filing on 5th of January, 2012, in
15 which it requested the Chamber to redact certain portions of its response
16 of 5th of January prior to reclassifying it as public. The Chamber
17 grants the request as contained in paragraph 6 of the UK response of
18 20th of January and orders that the UK may file a public version
19 redacting those portions indicated therein. Further, the unredacted
20 version of the 5th of January response should remain as confidential.
21 Thank you.
22 Yes, Mr. Mitchell, please continue.
23 WITNESS: JEAN-RENE RUEZ [Resumed]
24 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you, Mr. President.
25 Examination by Mr. Mitchell: [Continued]
1 Q. Good morning, Mr. Ruez.
2 A. Good morning.
3 Q. I want to start off by just going back to something we talked
4 about very briefly yesterday. If you can look at page 38 of the book
5 that's in front of you. That's 65 ter 3199. It's page 48 in e-court.
6 And, Mr. Ruez, the transcript yesterday recorded you saying -
7 this was from page T23644:
8 "... this is the view from close to the asphalt road where the
9 Bosnian Serb was present, and the men were on top of the hills ..."
10 Is there something missing from that when you say "close to the
11 asphalt road where the Bosnian Serb was present"?
12 A. Yes, the Bosnian Serb Army.
13 Q. Thank you. Let's move to page 46 now. It's page 56 in e-court.
14 We're going to see another map here, and if you can describe to us
15 where -- where the next location we're going to look at is and if you can
16 locate that for us on this map.
17 A. Yes. So now, as I said, we are entering the spots where
18 executions took place, and this one points a location in the so-called
19 Cerska Valley.
20 Q. Okay. What was the first information you received that made
21 Cerska Valley a place of interest?
22 A. It -- it was a combination of two -- two witnesses. The first
23 one was on 13 July overlooking this area from the top of the hill that I
24 described as being the hill overlooking the intersection of
25 Konjevic Polje, and from there he could see three buses entering this --
1 the entrance of this valley. These three buses were escorted by APCs.
2 And shortly after he lost of sight these buses, there was a small
3 excavator who followed the same track and also entered the valley.
4 Shortly afterwards, he heard intense shooting coming from that direction.
5 This is what the first witness reported. And another one who
6 managed to cross during the night, this area, who had lost his shoes
7 during the trip, walked at one point on sticky material that he
8 identified as being a pool of blood, and he continued his way towards the
9 top of the valley.
10 Q. Okay. If I -- I'll just stop you there and we'll go on and look
11 at some of the photos now. If we go to the next page, please, page 47 in
12 the book and page 40 -- 57 in e-court.
13 Mr. Ruez, before you explain the black arrow, can you orient us
14 on the road that we see on the bottom right-hand side of the picture.
15 A. So totally at the right of the picture is the hill overlooking --
16 the above intersection and also the area that leads towards Nova Kasaba,
17 and in front of that -- the line shows, in fact, the direction of this
18 dirt road that leads to the entrance of Cerska Valley.
19 Q. That's the black arrow.
20 A. This is the black arrow, indeed.
21 Q. And the road on the right-hand side that we can see that curves
22 in and then back out of the picture, where does that road lead to?
23 A. So this one is the road that leads from Konjevic Polje. That
24 would be in direction of the top right, and towards Nova Kasaba, bottom
1 Q. Can we go to the next page, please, 47 -- 48 in the book and 58
2 in e-court.
3 Can you describe what we see on this picture.
4 A. Yes. It is the opposite view seen this time from the beginning
5 of the -- the entrance of Cerska Valley and looking towards the hill
6 which is the one overlooking all this area on which the witness was when
7 he saw these buses entering the valley.
8 Q. Mr. Ruez, I might actually get you to mark on this map where the
9 roads are heading.
10 MR. MITCHELL: If I could ask the usher to assist.
11 THE WITNESS: So this is the direction towards Nova Kasaba. This
12 is the direction towards Konjevic Polje.
13 MR. MITCHELL:
14 Q. How far is Konjevic Polje from this intersection that we see
16 A. Maybe more than 1 kilometre but not so much more.
17 Q. And Nova Kasaba?
18 A. Probably 3, 4. And this one is the direction to Cerska.
19 Q. And how far down this road into the Cerska Valley is the site
20 that we're going to be looking at where the bodies were discovered?
21 A. Maybe 2 kilometres.
22 MR. MITCHELL: Mr. President, if I can tender that --
23 Q. Mr. Ruez, if you can put your initials in the bottom right-hand
24 corner and today's date.
25 A. We are the 27th?
1 Q. 27th, yes.
2 A. [Marks]
3 JUDGE KWON: This will be admitted.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P4280, Your Honours.
5 MR. MITCHELL:
6 Q. Could we go to the next page, please, page 49 in the book, 59 in
8 Mr. Ruez, can you describe what we see on this photo, where this
9 road is leading to.
10 A. This is the dirt road that enters the Cerska Valley, and it's
11 more or less where the first of these three Humvees is located. That one
12 who is overlooking the area loses -- starts to lose the sight of the
14 Q. Do you recall what year this picture was taken in?
15 A. Yes. It was in 1996. We might have a date on one of these
16 pictures. Well, we don't have a date, but --
17 Q. Was this your first trip to the area?
18 A. No, it was not the first trip, because during the first mission
19 in Cerska Valley we didn't find the -- the spot, so we drove along the
20 entire valley filming -- filming everything on the way up and then on the
21 way down. Then the video was shown to a witness who walked in the pool
22 of blood, and he's the one who pinpointed an area where we had a
23 reference point. So on another mission we came back to -- to the place.
24 Thanks to this information, we identified a suspect area, and this is the
25 area that we then probed and found the spot.
1 Q. Can we go to the next photo, please, page 50, and page 60 in
2 e-court. If you can just briefly describe what this is.
3 A. So again this is the -- the dirt road leading to the -- to the
4 suspect spot, and this is to show that it's quite a remote and hidden
5 location. Indeed, totally at this point out of sight of anyone who would
6 be on the opposite side of the valley even on -- on a hill.
7 Q. The next page, please, page 51 in the book and 61 in e-court.
8 Mr. Ruez, I might ask you to mark some things on this photo. If
9 you can just explain what this photo shows.
10 A. So this is the -- the area that we considered as suspect. In
11 fact, initially for the simple reason that on the -- on the right side of
12 this picture -- in fact, this is the direction of the entrance of the
13 valley, and this is the direction of Cerska.
14 Q. So this shot is taken looking back in the direction that you came
16 A. Yes, correct. And what was in fact suspect here was all these
17 branches that were put on the -- on the side of the road and had no
18 specific reason to be there.
19 JUDGE KWON: Could you put number 1 there.
20 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
21 MR. MITCHELL:
22 Q. Okay. Can you put your initials on that and the date.
23 A. [Marks]
24 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. That will be Exhibit P4281.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Instead of 2011, I believe it's
2 MR. MITCHELL: That's correct. Thank you.
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
4 THE WITNESS: Oh, sorry. I didn't realise we had changed the
5 year already.
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please continue.
7 MR. MITCHELL:
8 Q. If we can go to the next page, page 52, 62 in e-court. And if
9 you can orient us on this picture and then describe what this picture
11 A. So this is a better view of the suspect area, but it's seen now
12 reversed. The pen doesn't want to ...
13 So the top is the direction of Cerska this time and the bottom --
14 the vehicles are pointing to drive back to -- towards the entrance.
15 Q. And can you mark on there that suspect area again?
16 A. A bit further here.
17 Q. If you can mark that with a number 1.
18 A. [Marks]
19 Q. Now, is there any significance to the dirt area that we see on
20 the right-hand side of the picture?
21 A. Yes, indeed, there is. In fact, the little excavator who came
22 after the three buses took soil from this area 2 in order to dump the
23 soil on top of the bodies that fell along this slope here.
24 Q. Thank you. If you can initial and date that.
25 A. [Marks]
1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Exhibit P4282.
2 MR. MITCHELL:
3 Q. Can we move to page 53 in the book, 63 in e-court. I won't get
4 to you mark anything on the next picture, Mr. Ruez, but if you can just
5 very quickly tell us what we're looking at now.
6 A. One thing that was not obvious on the previous photographs is
7 that there is a quite steep slope in this area, so the execution area
8 being at the -- at the top where the -- the people are standing and where
9 the vehicle is parked. The bodies then fell along this slope, and the --
10 the soil that is covering this slope is the soil that was taken by the
11 excavator on the disturbed area that we saw on the previous picture.
12 Q. Next page, please, page 54, and 64 in e-court. Now, if you can
13 explain what's happening in this picture, Mr. Ruez.
14 A. Mm-hmm. So on every site we go to and where we suspect we could
15 find bodies, the thing that we do is we probe the area in order to
16 determine the presence of bodies, and always the presence of multiple
17 bodies, so that after that we can now spark an exhumation process, and to
18 do so we need to show the presence of multiple bodies.
19 Q. How do you do a probe?
20 A. The first thing that is done is to use a probe. That is a long
21 metal stick that is planted inside the soil, going at least 1.5 metre
22 deep, and the technique is very basic since after that this probe is
23 taken out of the soil, and you need to sniff the top of it in order to
24 identify the smell as being the smell of dead bodies. This is a process
25 that we call among us "pick and sniff."
1 Q. And what happens after you've done that initial probe? What's
2 the next step in investigating a site?
3 A. So on this one we decided to -- to dig at three locations that we
4 estimated being among the suspect area. So here at this moment you can
5 see three people starting to dig the surface until we -- we hit
7 Q. And is each of those individuals is in a different pit?
8 A. Yes, absolutely. Everyone is doing his part of the work on three
9 different locations on this slope.
10 Q. And this photo was also taken in 1996?
11 A. 1996, yes. I don't remember the month precisely.
12 Q. Could we go to the next photo, please, page 55 in the book, 65 in
13 e-court. Can you describe what we see here?
14 A. So this is the result of the search on the first little trench,
15 and at the bottom of the picture, which is more or less the bottom of the
16 slope, one can see two -- two legs with two feet.
17 Q. Now can we go to the next photo, please, page 56 in the book,
18 66 in e-court. Now, is this in the same pit that we were just looking at
19 or a different pit?
20 A. This is the second pit, the one in the middle, and this is the
21 top of a skull with some hair still attached on it.
22 Q. Did you have someone with you who was identifying these objects
23 as human remains?
24 A. No, not on -- not on this mission, but we showed the pictures,
25 and this is considered as indeed being a soil. For the previous picture
1 you don't need to be an anthropologist to find out that it's legs and
3 Q. We can go to the next page, please, 57 in the book, 67 in
4 e-court. And which of the three pits is this in?
5 A. So this is the one which is the most right from the previous
6 picture, and this is a top of a body with a skull popping out of -- of a
7 jacket, a civilian jacket.
8 Q. How long in length would you estimate that the suspect area was
9 along the edge of the road?
10 A. Approximately 20 metres.
11 Q. Can we go to the next page, please, 58 in the book, 68 in
12 e-court. We're going to see an aerial image entitled "Disturbed earth."
13 There are in fact two images, one dated 5 July 1995 and one dated
14 27 July 1995. Can you explain the significance of this image to your
16 A. This is a picture that we requested after having found this area
17 in order to ascertain the frame date of the creation of site, and on the
18 picture at the left dated 5th of July, the round yellow marking spots the
19 area where we have dug and found the bodies, and on the one at the right
20 dated 27 July, one can clearly see the disturbance at the side of the
21 road where the bodies have been dumped and also the parts that have been
22 disturbed on the right side of the road where the excavator took the soil
23 to cover the bodies.
24 Q. You put the yellow markings on this image; is that correct?
25 A. This is correct.
1 Q. And on the right-hand side, just to orient us, the smaller of the
2 two boxes, which part of the site does that refer to?
3 A. That's the -- the right side of the road when going up to Cerska.
4 It is the area where the excavator took the soil from the hillside to
5 dump it on top of the bodies.
6 Q. So the longer rectangle on the left, that is the suspect area?
7 A. This is the burial area.
8 Q. Can we go to page 59 and -- in the book, 69 in e-court. And if
9 you can talk us through the markings on this photo.
10 A. Mm-hmm. The yellow markers in the middle, they point the size of
11 the -- the location where we did our probing. It was to identify the --
12 the -- where we dug these pits. The yellow -- the yellow arrow at the
13 right of the picture shows the direction to where the bodies fell after
14 having been shot from the opposite side of the road where you can see two
15 persons conducting at this moment a search for the shell casings that we
16 found on the left side of the road. So the shooters were standing at the
17 left and shooting at extremely short distance at people who were lined on
18 the -- on the opposite side and who then fell along this slope. And the
19 yellow arrow at the left points to the area of disturbance where the
20 excavator then took the soil to cover the -- the bodies on the slope.
21 Q. Do the yellow numbered markers that we can see, do they run the
22 full length of the suspect area?
23 A. No, they don't. They only mark the area where we conducted the
24 probe. The actual size of the grave was slightly longer, and our
25 assumption, since there were three buses, was that we had to count
1 approximately 50 people per bus, and it was a right assumption because,
2 if I remember well, the exhumation here uncovered 150 bodies precisely,
3 or 151. I don't remember precisely.
4 Q. And do you recall what year that exhumation was done?
5 A. I would think it was done shortly afterwards.
6 Q. Could we move to the next page.
7 A. It was done that year for sure.
8 Q. Thank you. Now, Mr. Ruez, the next section of your book relates
9 to Nova Kasaba. We're actually going to skip over that and go to the
10 following section. It's page 70 in the book, page 80 in e-court.
11 If you can tell us what the significance of the red dot on this
12 map is. Right in the centre of the map.
13 A. Okay. This one is again the pinpointing of a reported execution
15 Q. And where is that site?
16 A. This one is just at the edge of -- of a river that goes to
17 Drinjaca, the Drinjaca river. Just before Drinjaca river.
18 Q. And do you recall the specific name of this river?
19 A. No, I don't. We always call it Drinjaca, but might be just
20 before Drinjaca.
21 Q. Well, how did you first hear about this site?
22 A. We heard about this site from a witness who was the one who was
23 taken in the hangar at Konjevic Polje and who claimed having then been
24 taken with a group of 16 others in a bus, driven towards this canyon that
25 leads to the Drinjaca river and then going north towards Zvornik where
1 they were then stopped, unloaded, walked down a steep hill, reached
2 the -- the edge of the river when the people, the armed people who were
3 following them, then shot them in the back. And he shot and fell in the
4 water, managed to float away and then gave other reference points, and so
5 on, and managed to survive.
6 Q. Can you see the name of that witness on the sheet in front of
7 you, and if you can, can you read out his witness code.
8 A. He's the witness KDZ065.
9 Q. And you talked about this same witness yesterday in relation to
10 some sites at Konjevic Polje; is that correct?
11 A. Yes. And the name of the river is Jadar, by the way.
12 Q. Can we please go to the next page, page 71 in the book, 81 in
13 e-court. We've seen this photo before. If you can just remind us what
14 that building in the blue circle is, the blue square.
15 A. In the blue square is the hangar of Konjevic Polje in which
16 initially the victim was locked inside, and then put on a bus. On this
17 picture it happens at random that there is a bus exactly there, and then
18 this bus took the direction north, so towards Zvornik, and the canyon
19 starts after the curve at the end of this red arrow.
20 Q. So the red arrow points towards the direction of Zvornik.
21 A. Towards the direction of Zvornik, but it's much before -- much,
22 much before Zvornik. It's just at 2 -- 2 kilometres away from the
24 Q. Can we go to the next page, please. This is page 72 in the book,
25 82 in e-court.
1 Now, Mr. Ruez, next to the red arrow we see in this picture we
2 can see two natural lines. Can you maybe mark on this image those lines
3 and describe what they are.
4 A. So this is the direction -- at the top is the direction from
5 where the bus was coming from. So this is the direction.
6 Q. And that's the direction of Konjevic Polje.
7 A. Yes. This one is the direction of Zvornik. This line here is
8 the road. And this one here is Jadar river.
9 Q. Can you see the site where the witness took you to in this photo?
10 A. It could be just -- just under the picture or more or less --
11 more or less in this area here. That's quite a steep slope leading to
12 the river.
13 Q. If you could just mark that little area with a 1.
14 A. [Marks]
15 Q. And initial and date it.
16 A. [Marks].
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes. That will be Exhibit P4283.
18 MR. MITCHELL:
19 Q. Thank you. Now, can we go to the next page, please, page 73 in
20 the book, 83 in e-court.
21 Can you describe what's on this photo, Mr. Ruez?
22 A. So this is the little convoy that we made in order to bring the
23 witness to -- to the spot, since without his presence this would be
24 totally impossible for us to find, and at this moment we are arriving --
25 nearly arriving at the -- at the spot where the bus unloaded the
2 Q. How far away could you approximate that you were in this photo?
3 A. Maybe 1, maybe 200 metres away.
4 Q. Can we go to the next photo, please. Page 74, page 84 in
6 Can you tell us first who took this photo?
7 A. I took the photo from -- it's an extract from a video that I took
8 from helicopter of the -- the entire -- the entire crime scene areas,
9 70 kilometres long north/south.
10 Q. And can you explain the significance of the red arrow?
11 A. The arrow starts at an area which is a stop for vehicles and
12 where the -- the bus stopped, and the arrow points towards the direction
13 of a small path that goes down this steep slope down to the river.
14 Q. Now, the road we see running through the middle of the picture,
15 which direction does it head out to the left of the picture?
16 A. This is the direction of Zvornik, and this one towards
17 Konjevic Polje.
18 Q. And can you also mark in the river in this picture.
19 A. [Marks]
20 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Exhibit P4284.
21 MR. MITCHELL:
22 Q. Can we go to the next payment, please, 75 in the book and 85 in
24 If you could describe this site to us and tell us whether you
25 found anything at this site.
1 A. So this is the area where the -- the witness told us the
2 execution took place, the prisoners being lined along the river and shot
3 in the back. He -- he recognised -- he knew the one who shot him, and he
4 gave his name in the statement, a policeman from Bratunac.
5 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President.
6 JUDGE KWON: We'll not rely on his evidence of the --
7 MR. ROBINSON: Okay.
8 JUDGE KWON: He's introducing the various sites.
9 MR. ROBINSON: Yes. I think it would be preferable if when
10 answering those questions he didn't make references to the details of the
11 witness's statement but simply pointed out that, We were led to the site
12 by a witness who had been present. I don't think it's necessary to go
13 beyond that.
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes. In order to find why he came to that site. So
15 it's necessary to hear that part, to that extent.
16 MR. ROBINSON: Right. To the extent that it was someone who was
17 present directed him there, but the details of what occurred at the sites
18 is not necessary, as far as we're concerned, and violates the
19 Appeals Chamber jurisprudence.
20 MR. MITCHELL: If I can respond to that.
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Mitchell.
22 MR. MITCHELL: Mr. President, I think it's perfectly proper for
23 Mr. Ruez to give a description of what happened at the sites insofar as
24 it relates to his investigation, how he came to the sites, what
25 particular features he's looking for. So I certainly don't think his
1 evidence should be limited to just a discussion of how the site was
2 found. There will be certain features within those sites that he's
3 looking for.
4 JUDGE KWON: But he's not here to relay what he heard from the
5 witnesses, but we'll hear -- we'll not limit his evidence insofar as it's
6 relevant to familiarise us to the -- with the various sites.
7 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you.
8 JUDGE KWON: Please carry on.
9 MR. MITCHELL:
10 Q. Now, Mr. Ruez, we're going to move to another site now.
11 A. No. No, sorry.
12 Q. Please, if you've got something to add.
13 A. Yes, yes. The question about what we found is extremely
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
16 THE WITNESS: The fact is that we didn't find anything there. We
17 didn't find no human remains, might have fallen in the river like the
18 witness, and we also didn't find shell casings in this area, and the next
19 photo might explain the reason why.
20 MR. MITCHELL:
21 Q. If we can go to the next page, 76 in the book and 86 in e-court.
22 If you can just briefly explain why you took this photo.
23 A. The -- I don't have the -- the date and the year of this
24 submission. It might have been 1998. The interest of this photo is to
25 show that most certainly at some points of the year this -- this river
1 doesn't look at all in the same shape. As one can see, there are big
2 wooden logs stuck at more than 1.5 meter higher than the current flow of
3 the river. So all the evidence we were looking for might have been
4 washed out, washed away by the river.
5 Q. We've going to move now to a new area. If I can get you to go to
6 page 86 in your book, page 96 in e-court. We're skipping over the
7 section on Konjevic Polje.
8 If you can tell us what the next site is that we're going to look
10 A. So this one is in connection with a location we already went
11 through, which is the regroupment spot of the prisoners who surrendered
12 the 13 of July and were taken first to the meadow of -- for -- of
13 Sandici. The red spot indicates the location of an execution site where
14 some of these men from -- from Sandici were taken to.
15 Q. Now, what was the first information you received that led you to
16 investigate this sight at Kravica?
17 A. The -- the first one was a testimony that we collected during the
18 summer 1995 from a man who claimed having been -- having surrendered,
19 being taken to the meadow in Sandici and from there taken by foot in a
20 large group and put inside this warehouse where he could enter what he
21 calls a little guardhouse inside, and the reason why he survived is that
22 when the execution took place there, he could hide under bodies and
23 inside -- inside this -- this guardhouse.
24 Q. Can you see the name of that witness on the list in front of you,
25 and if you can, can you tell us his witness code.
1 A. Mm-hmm. So this first witness is KDZ071.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 A. The -- the --
4 Q. Please go on.
5 A. The second witness, we could only access him beginning of the
6 following year, after the month of March, when the total process of
7 exchange of prisoners was over. And this particular witness had managed
8 to flee after having survived the execution at Kravica warehouse. He
9 could flee to Zepa. He was taken prisoner in Zepa but not identified as
10 coming from Srebrenica and could tell his story after having been
11 released after the month of March 1996.
12 Q. And what's his witness code, if you can see it there?
13 A. He is the witness KDZ063.
14 Q. Let's go to the next page at page 87 in the book and 97 in
15 e-court. And if you can tell us where this photo is taken from and what
16 the red arrow is pointing to.
17 A. This photograph is taken from the reference point that we named
18 the destroyed house that is along the asphalt road at the Sandici meadow.
19 And from there it gives an idea of the distance towards the Kravica
20 warehouse. The Kravica warehouse is this white spot that is pointed to
21 by the red arrow on the picture, and at the left it is the asphalt road
22 leading towards Bratunac.
23 Q. Let's go to the next photo, page 88, page 98 in e-court. Again,
24 if you can describe this photo to us.
25 A. This one is photo from helicopter that gives a better feeling of
1 the distance. It's a short distance, approximately 1 kilometre by foot
2 or by vehicle from Sandici meadow. But Sandici meadow is just right
3 under the -- this -- this picture, just at the -- at the left of -- the
4 bottom of the road.
5 Q. Can we go to the next page. Page 89 in the book, 99 in e-court.
6 If you can describe this and then orient us on the road that we
7 can see running down the bottom half of the picture.
8 A. At the -- at the right of the blue arrow is the direction of the
9 meadow of Sandici, so the direction of Konjevic Polje. And the arrow
10 points towards the direction of Bratunac. This is the direction the
11 arrow is, the direction of the -- of the prisoners when they arrived at
12 the -- at the warehouse.
13 They arrived in two different groupings. The first group
14 arrived -- small group arrived by buses. It is the one in which the
15 second witness was, the witness KDZ063. And the buses unloaded them in
16 front of the east part of -- sorry, west part of the warehouse.
17 Q. And if -- this is the warehouse within the red box?
18 A. Yes. This is the warehouse complex. It's several buildings, but
19 the building of relevance is the one that is parallel to the roads in the
20 red rectangle.
21 Q. Could we go to the next page, please, page 90 in the book and 100
22 in e-court.
23 We have a split image here.
24 A. Mm-hmm.
25 Q. If you can tell us first what time of year was the image at the
1 top taken.
2 A. The -- the one at the top is the one that is dated at the closest
3 date possible of the events. It's a picture that was taken in January
4 1996. The one at the bottom was taken much later, maybe 1997, maybe even
6 One can see at the bottom a destroyed part of the warehouse is
7 now reconstructed.
8 Q. And the area that you've outlined in the red box, is that the
9 east end -- what you refer to as the east end or the west end of the
11 A. The -- this is the part where the larger group of the people who
12 arrived by foot were taken. So the second -- the second group. And the
13 part that is marked is the east part -- the west part, sorry.
14 Q. Now, in this -- this trip you made --
15 A. Did I say east here? I'm a bit confused at this point.
16 JUDGE KWON: You corrected as west.
17 MR. MITCHELL:
18 Q. We have it in the transcript as "the west end."
19 A. No, it's the east end.
20 JUDGE KWON: You said earlier on the arrow, blue arrow, was from
21 Sandici meadow.
22 THE WITNESS: Yes.
23 JUDGE KWON: I think that's sufficient.
24 THE WITNESS: Okay.
25 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you.
1 THE WITNESS: Okay. I'm a bit lost, I must confess.
2 JUDGE KWON: This is always confusing.
3 MR. MITCHELL:
4 Q. Now, this trip in January 1996, did you do anything at the
5 warehouse? Did you go into the warehouse and do any investigation?
6 A. It was an extremely short mission, because in fact we use the
7 opportunity of a short one-day trip made by Mr. John Shattuck in the
8 area. Mr. Shattuck was Under-Secretary of State for human rights of the
9 US government, and the aim of the mission was to show implementation of
10 Dayton agreement by freedom of movement, the freedom of movement being at
11 that time only for press people, to be honest, but it gave a wonderful
12 opportunity to go with him in order to show him various sites and have a
13 first look at them. So at this particular site, meanwhile Mr. Shattuck
14 was keeping the press people busy for a short interview, I entered the
15 warehouse with a colleague and we scratched a sample of suspect substance
16 that was all over these walls in order to determine if we were in front
17 of an animal slaughterhouse or if indeed this place had been an execution
18 place of human beings, so human blood.
19 Q. And what were the -- the results -- first, did you have those
21 A. Yes. The sample was taken to a Dutch forensic lab, and the
22 result was that the sample was human blood.
23 Q. Could we go to the next page, please, page 91 in the book and 101
24 in e-court. And just very briefly, if you can --
25 A. So this one is the west part, the direction of Bratunac, and this
1 is where the first group on board of buses were taken to. So this one is
2 more open space. There is no -- no door to -- to lock this area, so the
3 people were brought to be sitting at this west end of the warehouse.
4 Q. Can we go to the next page, page 92 in the book and 102 in
5 e-court. The picture in the bottom right is an aerial dated
6 13 July 1995, approximately 1400 hours. If you can describe the
7 significance of what's in the yellow circle.
8 A. Mm-hmm. So this is an aerial surveillance imagery dated 13, and
9 on this one we can see two buses parked at the west part of the warehouse
10 precisely at the location where the -- the second witness declared having
11 been taken to by bus.
12 Q. And can you just tell us -- remind us again which witness that
14 A. The KDZ063.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 JUDGE KWON: How about asking the witness to mark on this aerial
17 image. Which direction is to the -- is the Sandici meadow?
18 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
19 JUDGE KWON: So which way -- which direction is the east?
20 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
21 JUDGE KWON: Why don't we keep this as --
22 THE WITNESS: The reference.
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We'll keep it as next exhibit. Give the
25 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P4285, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE KWON: Could we go back to page 86, e-court 96, I take it.
2 THE ACCUSED: It was what I was --
3 JUDGE KWON: Do you see -- do you see Bratunac and Sandici? Yes,
4 Bratunac is in the east, isn't it?
5 THE WITNESS: Yes.
6 JUDGE KWON: Would you like to correct your -- yes.
7 THE WITNESS: Yes, I reversed the thing. Yes, I totally reversed
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Shall we bring it up? Shall we bring it up,
10 the exhibit we just saw, P4285.
11 Would you like to correct the east and west.
12 THE WITNESS: Yes.
13 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Probably you need to push the
15 THE WITNESS: Yes, I need to push again.
16 JUDGE KWON: But could you wait a minute. Yes. Push it again.
17 Just a second.
18 MR. MITCHELL: Mr. President, perhaps we could go back. I could
19 have Mr. Ruez mark a clean copy if that would be of assistance.
20 JUDGE KWON: Because it's in the transcript, I think I would
21 prefer that he correct this.
22 THE ACCUSED: I'd prefer corrections on that one.
23 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Yes.
24 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
1 THE WITNESS: Okay.
2 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
3 Please continue, Mr. Mitchell.
4 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you.
5 JUDGE KWON: Make sure that we keep this.
6 MR. MITCHELL:
7 Q. If we can go to the next page, please. It's page 93 in the book
8 and 103 in e-court.
9 Mr. Ruez, we've seen this photo before.
10 A. I've not the good one on the screen.
11 Q. It's page 103.
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes, 93 in hard copy.
13 MR. MITCHELL: Ninety-three in hard copy, 103 in e-court.
14 Q. We've seen this picture before. Can you just explain briefly why
15 this is in your book again.
16 A. No, it's the same explanation, so this one is the west. That's
17 where the largest group was taken to, and this is where the witness
18 KDZ071 was taken to.
19 Q. The next page, please, page 94 in the book and 104 in e-court.
20 Can you tell us what date this photo was taken?
21 A. This was in 1996. It was the first mission where we entered the
22 warehouse in order to do a preliminary collection of samples in order to
23 secure what we could collect inside in case any event would prevent us to
24 return and more fully process the place with an expert team, another
25 expert team fully dedicated for that.
1 Q. And which end of the warehouse is this in, if you recall?
2 A. Yes. This is the -- the west part of the warehouse.
3 Q. What are the yellow arrows pointing to?
4 A. They -- they point to locations where samples were taken and that
5 we suspected to be human blood and hair, skin, pieces of skin, things
6 like this.
7 Q. Were these the samples that you referred to earlier that you said
8 were tested?
9 A. No. The -- during the very short entering of this place in
10 January, I didn't even take a photograph of the sample. I just took the
11 sample. It was just to check if we were talking about animal or human
12 blood in this place.
13 Q. But these particular samples here, were they taken and tested, or
14 you're just -- the arrows are just pointing to them?
15 A. No. They were labelled, given ERN numbers and kept just in case
16 we could not return, but this place was later that year fully processed
17 by experts from the US navy service and who have filed a complete report
18 about the hundreds of samples that they took in this -- in this area.
19 Q. The next page, please, page 95 in hard copy, 105 in e-court.
20 Again, is this in the west end of the warehouse?
21 A. Yes. It is still the west end. So the picture is not as good
22 quality as the original one, but you can see on this a lot of blood
23 spills on the wall, as well as black traces that were determined being
24 from explosive residues, confirming the fact that grenades had been also
25 thrown inside the warehouse, not only shots fired.
1 Q. At page 96 in the hard copy and 106 in e-court, please. Now, can
2 you tell us what this is and where it was found?
3 A. So this is a live grenade that was found in -- in the grassy area
4 just in front of the warehouse, in between the asphalt road and the
6 Q. Do you recall when this photo was taken?
7 A. It was taken in 1996. It could be a mission of June 1996.
8 Q. Can we go to the next page, please.
9 A. Sorry, no. There is a date on another picture which was taken
10 during the same mission. It was April 1996.
11 Q. Thank you. Page 97 in the hard copy, 107 in e-court, please.
12 Could you talk us through what this photo shows, what the
13 number 2 is, what the item with the writing on it is, and then the object
14 in the middle?
15 A. This is a grenade handle of -- that was -- when they attached to
16 a grenade, and that is a part that stays behind once the grenade is
17 thrown. The grenade explodes, but the spoon stays. And this spoon was
18 found at the back of the warehouse, so at the north-west part of the
19 warehouse, at the back of the warehouse.
20 Q. And what's the -- the piece of paper in front with the writing on
21 it? Can you briefly explain what that is?
22 A. Yes. This is a sheet that goes together with -- with the piece
23 of evidence in order to label the date and hour it was taken. And as you
24 can see from the agency ICTY, the case number for this specific case,
25 KV-3, Kravica-3, and the name of the person who took the picture.
1 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Mitchell, I note the time. We're going to take
2 a break now.
3 MR. MITCHELL: Certainly.
4 JUDGE KWON: If it is convenient.
5 MR. MITCHELL: It is convenient.
6 JUDGE KWON: Before that, can I draw your attention to the
7 pages 78 -- from 78 to 85 in hard copy. Were those sites included in the
8 indictment sites?
9 MR. MITCHELL: Mr. President, there's two sites in this which are
10 not in the indictment, Nova Kasaba and Konjevic Polje, and we skipped
11 over those two sets of photos.
12 JUDGE KWON: Why were they included in the book?
13 MR. MITCHELL: They were included because -- simply because this
14 is an exhibit that was created by Mr. Ruez for the Popovic trial --
15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
16 MR. MITCHELL: -- and we have simply used the same exhibit.
17 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Thank you.
18 We'll take a break for 20 minutes and resume at half past 10.00.
19 --- Recess taken at 10.12 a.m.
20 --- On resuming at 10.33 a.m.
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Robinson.
22 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, thank you, Mr. President. I'd like to
23 introduce one of our legal interns, Nastexo Muxumed, from the
24 United Kingdom, who is joining us this section.
25 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
1 Yes, Mr. Mitchell. Please continue.
2 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 Q. Mr. Ruez, just a couple of extra questions on this photo, page 97
4 in the book. Can you explain what the yellow tag with the number 2 on it
5 is? The yellow object we can see in the -- in the photo.
6 A. Yes. These markers designate the number of the -- of the
7 exhibit, of the piece of evidence.
8 Mr. Prosecutor, I would like to make an additional correction to
9 the directions we were pointing to previously, because the picture was
10 totally reversed from my usual reference points, and I made an additional
11 mistake not only inversing east and west but also therefore inversed
12 south and north. So when I said the back of the warehouse was north, in
13 reality it's opposite. It's south. So the grenade handle found at the
14 back of the warehouse was, in fact, found south-west of the warehouse.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 A. An additional little thing also. When I talk about the spoon of
17 a grenade, the spoon is the French word for it, but I translate it as a
18 spoon, but in English it's a grenade handle.
19 Q. Was this the only grenade handle you found, the one that we can
20 see in this picture?
21 A. No. We found a few of them. Probably four or five of them.
22 Q. Were they concentrated in one area, or were they spread out?
23 A. They were concentrated in the south-west area, underneath two
25 Q. Can we go to the next page, page 98 in the hard copy and 108 in
2 Mr. Ruez, this photo and the next one, which is page 99 in your
3 book, show a hole in the warehouse wall. Were you able to determine what
4 this hole was and what may have caused it?
5 A. There was a statement claiming that shots were fired inside,
6 grenades thrown inside, and even an RPG-style antitank rockets fired
7 inside. So that hole could have been consistent with that, especially on
8 the following picture.
9 Q. Can we go to the following picture, page 99, 109 in e-court.
10 A. Where one can see the fact that some explosion occurred in this
11 wall from inside towards outside. And if indeed this would be caused by
12 such a weapon, it might very well be that it could have been fired from
13 the window that one can see at the -- in the line of sight through this
14 hole, but -- it's just a possible consistency, but I would not say for
15 sure that this was the case.
16 Q. Let's go to the next page, page 100, 110 in e-court. And if you
17 can explain to us the significance of the entrance which the yellow arrow
18 is pointing to.
19 A. So this is the -- the facade, the front facade of the warehouse,
20 and as the witness claimed having been able to hide inside a so-called
21 guardhouse inside, this is the location where we found traces of what was
22 previously a guardhouse inside, and the arrow points to that specific
24 Q. Well, let's go to the next page, page 101, 111 in e-court. If
25 you can describe this to us.
1 A. Yes. The fact is that after the first short entering the
2 warehouse in January, I then had to tell to the witness that there was an
3 inconsistency in his story since we didn't see any -- anything that
4 looked like a guardhouse inside. But the fact is also that on the next
5 mission we had more time, and this was the obvious traces of what is left
6 of what was before the little bulldozer entered the place and cleaned the
7 bodies and most probably destroyed this structure. One can see where it
8 was with the blue little tiles at the bottom and the traces on the wall
9 that show where this structure was constructed inside this warehouse.
10 Q. And can you just tell us the date that this particular photo was
12 A. This one has the date on it. It was the 12 April 1996.
13 Q. Can you also tell us if you can see the witness code of the
14 witness you're talking about. If you can read that out for us.
15 A. Yes. He's the witness KDZ071.
16 Q. Thank you. Can we go to the next page please, 102 in the hard
17 copy, 112 in e-court.
18 Mr. Ruez, I might ask you to mark on the image what the items are
19 we see here, and if you can also tell us where they were found?
20 A. So just in front of the warehouse on the right hand there was an
21 area of rubbish, and we -- we went through this -- all this rubbish and
22 found some items that had been left behind after the -- the cleaning
23 process of the inside on which we can see shell casings, fake teeth,
24 "licna karta" but without name inside, and a collection of bone fragments
25 that were shown to the anthropologist who determined it was pieces of
1 human bones.
2 Q. If you can circle the area of the bone fragments.
3 A. [Marks]
4 Q. Do you recall the name of the anthropologist who made those
6 A. Yes. It was William Haglund.
7 Q. If you can put your initials on that and date it, Mr. Ruez,
9 A. [Marks]
10 JUDGE KWON: Yes. This will be admitted as the next Prosecution
12 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P4286, Your Honours.
13 THE WITNESS: I would not be able to say if the identification
14 was done on the spot during this mission or based on the photograph.
15 MR. MITCHELL:
16 Q. Thank you. Can we go to the next page, please, 103 in the hard
17 copy and 113.
18 Now, this is the same as photo number 91, which we've seen
19 earlier, and this is introducing the other end of the warehouse; is that
21 A. Yes, that is correct. This is the -- the east part of the
22 warehouse. That is more an open space.
23 Q. Can we go to the next page, please, 104 in the hard copy and 114
24 in e-court. Can you describe what we're looking at in this photo.
25 A. This is the east wall of the -- the hangar, the wall that was
1 behind the prisoners.
2 Q. Could we have the next photo, please. Now, this is 105 in the
3 hard copy. If you can tell us what that yellow arrow on the right-hand
4 side of the photo is pointing to?
5 A. So this arrow points to a bloodstain from where I collected a
6 sample. The reason why I had to take this sample is that I discovered
7 after the forensic process that was done by the team of experts in this
8 place during the -- the summer 1996 that they had processed the entire
9 west part of the warehouse but, unfortunately, had forgotten to do the
10 east part. So I returned to the east part just in order to collect at
11 least one sample in order to have the lab determine if this was human
12 blood or not, and it ended up indeed being also human blood.
13 Q. And we can see some other marks on that wall. Were you able to
14 determine what those other marks were?
15 A. The wall is also riddled with obvious bullet holes.
16 Q. Can we go to the next page, 106 in the hard copy, 116 in e-court.
17 Is this just a close-up of the blood sample that we see in the previous
19 A. Yes. This is correct. It's only a close shot of the sample.
20 Q. Could we go to page 107 in the hard copy, please, 117 in e-court.
21 Can you describe what we're looking at here, Mr. Ruez, and the
22 significance of the window that the yellow arrow is pointing to.
23 A. The -- the witness who claims having survived in this east part
24 of the warehouse said having jumped out of -- of a window at the back of
25 the warehouse, and this is the -- the arrow points to the window the
1 witness was referring to. He's the witness KDZ063.
2 Q. Now, did you actually go to the site with this witness, or did he
3 identify it in some other way?
4 A. We unfortunately couldn't return to the site with the witness,
5 but he identified the photograph and said that he jumped through the
6 first window in that part of the warehouse, and this is the -- this is
7 the first one. The closest to the area where the prisoners were sitting
8 when they were shot at.
9 Q. Could we look at page 108 in hard copy and 118 in e-court. If
10 you can tell us what angle we're looking at the warehouse from now.
11 A. So this photo shows the back of the warehouse and the first
12 window is again the one where the witness jumped out. He said that
13 behind was a cornfield. In -- at the time we came there is no more corn,
14 but it was indeed before that a cornfield. One could see the cut corn
15 behind it.
16 Q. Mr. Ruez, can you actually mark the window you're referring to on
17 this photo so we can be clear.
18 A. Took the wrong pen. [Marks]
19 Q. If you can initial and date that as well, please.
20 A. [Marks]
21 MR. MITCHELL: If that can be admitted, Mr. President.
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Exhibit P4287.
23 MR. MITCHELL:
24 Q. Can we look at page 109 in the hard copy now and page 119 in
25 e-court. If you can tell us, Mr. Ruez, which part of the warehouse we're
1 about to see and what, if anything, is significant about this particular
3 A. This is again the east part but seen from the road, so the front
4 facade of this warehouse. Behind this window is the area where the
5 prisoners were sitting, and the goal of this one is to show that the
6 witness I was referring to was most probably not the only one who tried
7 to escape the killers by jumping through a window since we will have a
8 close shot of this one that will indicate that someone also jumped out of
9 this window.
10 Q. Can we go to the next page, 110 in the hard copy and 120 in
11 e-court. And if you can explain what this is.
12 A. So on the previous picture it was not obvious because of the
13 distance, but just underneath this window is a shoe trace on the wall,
14 and one can see that it is a reversed shoe print. So it's not someone
15 who climbed inside, but it is someone who jumped outside. I could point
16 you the location on the previous one now.
17 Q. Yes. If we can go back to page 109, page 119, and if you can
18 mark on that image where that shoe print is.
19 A. [Marks]
20 Q. And initial and date it, please.
21 A. [Marks]
22 JUDGE KWON: That will be Exhibit P4288.
23 MR. MITCHELL:
24 Q. And just to be crystal clear for our records, this is not the
25 window which the witness who you spoke to jumped out of. This is a
1 different window.
2 A. Yes. This one jumped in the wrong direction.
3 Q. Okay. Let's go to page 111 in the hard copy, and 121. If you
4 can just tell us very briefly what this image is.
5 A. This is a still extracted from the video of Zoran Petrovic, one
6 of the pictures that he tried to conceal from the Tribunal. On this one
7 he's just arriving on the spot together with Colonel Borovcanin, and at
8 the moment he arrives, he films for a few seconds before shutting down
9 his camera, and this is the -- the entrance at the front west of the
10 warehouse where one can see a Bosnian Serb soldier just in front at the
11 right hand of the picture and a stack of dead bodies of people who most
12 probably tried to exit the place once the shooting started and who are
13 piled up at the entrance.
14 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next page, 112 in the hard copy and 122 in
15 e-court. And can you explain to us the relationship between these three
17 A. Yes. So at the top is the entrance as it looked like at the time
18 of the events. At the bottom left is the door as it looked like after
19 the events. This destruction matches the part of the story explaining
20 that after the shooting that occurred in several waves was over, a
21 bulldozer entered the location in order to collect the bodies. So the
22 destruction on that door shows the necessity to having enlarged the
23 entrance for this machine to get inside.
24 Q. And the August 1997 shot.
25 A. So this one shows the reconstruction of that part of the
1 warehouse, but it was not reconstructed at the identical compared with
2 how it was in July 1995. It is more large now than it was at the time.
3 Q. Okay, well, let's go --
4 JUDGE KWON: Just a couple of questions, Mr. Ruez. You said
5 Mr. Zoran Petrovic, he tried to conceal that part from the Tribunal. Do
6 you remember having said that?
7 THE WITNESS: Yes.
8 JUDGE KWON: What would be your basis to say so?
9 THE WITNESS: Because when he mounted his film for broadcast, he
10 eliminated from that film the part that were the most relevant, those
11 part on which we could see prisoners, the ones in Bratunac, those sitting
12 on the balcony of the white house. And most important of all, he erased
13 from that film the piece of footage that shows the ongoing execution
14 happening when he arrives at the Kravica warehouse.
15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. And my second question is this: You
17 "At the entrance, at the front west of the warehouse where one
18 can see a Bosnian Serb soldier just in front at the right hand the
19 picture and a stack of dead bodies of people who most probably tried to
20 exit the place once the shooting started and who are piled up at the
22 What would be the basis for such observation?
23 THE WITNESS: The basis is that the people were jammed inside
24 that part of the warehouse, and since these bodies are -- are shot
25 outside the warehouse, it can only be because they tried to get out of
1 this place to avoid the shooting.
2 JUDGE KWON: Do you think the door is open on this picture?
3 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is. I would think there was -- there has
4 never been a door. It's an open space.
5 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Mitchell.
6 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Q. If we can go to the next payment, please, 113 in the hard copy
8 and 123 in e-court. And if you can just briefly explain this picture,
9 and we're going to go through a series of pictures quickly here to show
10 the reconstruction of the door.
11 A. Yes. This one is to indicate that once reconstructed, the door
12 is not at the original size it had at the time of the events since a
13 piece of it is now missing. One can clearly see it by comparing the
14 bullet traces on the -- on the original photograph at the time of the
15 events, the one at the top, and how it looked like later on. So a big
16 piece of it is missing.
17 Q. Can we go to the next page, please, 114 in hard copy and 124 in
19 Can you explain the significance of these two lines, the white
20 line and the yellow line.
21 A. Yes. It's -- it's reference point to -- to -- again to then try
22 to check the original size of the door.
23 Q. Next photo, please, 115 in hard copy and 125 in e-court. And if
24 you can briefly explain this one to us?
25 A. Yes. So this one I made in order to determine in fact what were
1 the parts that were -- that were missing.
2 Q. Next page, 116, and 126 in e-court. Does this also relate to
3 the --
4 A. Yes, the same situation. It's to make sure that indeed the
5 picture that we see, the still one, though the size is not the one that
6 we could observe later, is sill indeed the relevant part of the warehouse
7 we are talking about.
8 Q. At page 117, please, 127 in e-court. Can you explain to us the
9 relationship between those two photos.
10 A. Yes. The -- the main interest of the -- of this one is that once
11 the journalist under Colonel Borovcanin arrived on the spot, the picture
12 above shows what's the status of the bullet holes on this warehouse.
13 Since on the video, original video, shots can be heard, there would be
14 two options. It could be any combat going on in the area. It could be
15 what is called a happy fire, but it could also be shots being fired at
16 the prisoners. So when one looks at how the situation was after this
17 video, one can see that there are in fact more holes in the wall than at
18 the moment the first picture during the live events was taken.
19 Q. If we can go to the next page. I think this illustrates it
20 better. Page 118, 128 in e-court. Can you just explain the significance
21 of the red circles in the bottom image?
22 A. The red circles show additional bullet holes, additional holes
23 that were shot at the wall after the photograph of the video taken by
24 Zoran Petrovic. There are three more in this area precisely, there are
25 three more -- four more shots on the wall.
1 Q. We're going to look at some video now of the Kravica warehouse.
2 This is 65 ter 40231, a -- and, Mr. Ruez, we're going to turn off the
3 sound and if you can talk us through what this video shows.
4 [Video-clip played]
5 MR. MITCHELL:
6 Q. Perhaps you can tell us right up front who took this video.
7 A. It could either be me or Peter Nicholson. I don't remember.
8 Q. Who is Peter Nicholson?
9 A. Peter Nicholson was a staff member of the Office of the
10 Prosecutor, and he accompanied me on all the 1996 and mainly also most of
11 the 1997 missions in this area, but he was not, let's say, a purely
12 member of the investigation team. He was doing other things, but he
13 agreed to come on the missions.
14 Q. Okay. Let's -- we stopped the footage briefly at 41 seconds. If
15 we can restart, and then, Mr. Ruez, if you can tell us what we are
16 looking at?
17 A. At this part, I was the one filming. Later on at the warehouse,
18 it was Peter Nicholson. So this one shows the -- showed previously the
19 Sandici meadow with the reference point of the destroyed house, and --
20 this was of the destroyed house, the meadow being in the back.
21 So turning the camera in a way that was more or less the one of
22 the previous video. The asphalt road going -- leading towards the
23 direction of Bratunac and the Kravica warehouse. And here the same view
24 that we had on the still, which is the direction of the warehouse at the
25 end of the white spot in the middle of the picture where I'm zooming on.
1 Again to show the walking distance of the second group.
2 So that's from the helicopter mission. It shows the valley at
3 the left, Bratunac; the right direction, Konjevic Polje. Here is the
4 warehouse complex. It shows the area where the witness who jumped out of
5 the window then escaped going towards the hill behind.
6 Q. Did you do any investigation at the other buildings that are part
7 of this complex?
8 A. Just a visual check, nothing conclusive, and we -- I mean, there
9 was no -- no traces that could indicate something happening then, and no
10 witness information about it also.
11 So this is the facade. Here we are in the process of checking
12 the surroundings for shell casings, grenade holders -- handles.
13 The -- as you can notice, the exit doors have a large
14 concentration of bullet holes.
15 Q. Can you tell us when this footage was taken? We can see that the
16 end door still hasn't been reconstructed.
17 A. I -- no. I don't know for this one. That was -- so it's filmed
18 by Peter Nicholson, because I just saw myself taking pictures.
19 There's the frame that we saw on the -- on the still photo, the
20 frame of the previous guardhouse inside.
21 There were some traces of blood even at the ceiling.
22 Q. And this is the inside of the west end of the warehouse; is that
24 A. Yes. This is right, yes.
25 Q. For the record, we're around 4 minutes, 40 seconds.
1 A. So the place has never suffered any major change. All the traces
2 were left behind, and many years later the same collection process of
3 evidence could have been redone with the same amount of human blood,
4 human skin, human hair, traces of explosives. Everything was left in the
5 same condition years after.
6 So this is the back of the warehouse.
7 Q. We're now at around 5 minutes and 50 seconds on the video.
8 A. So this is the cornfield behind the -- the warehouse. This is a
9 zoom on a shell casing. There were several still scattered around.
10 A shell casing. Another shell casing.
11 So the quality is not really good because at that time we had
12 video cameras without steady shots, so it's always trembling and ...
13 So now again the front of the warehouse. The east part.
14 Q. We're at around 7 minutes, 45 seconds.
15 A. So entering the east part and the prisoners were at the left of
16 it where the -- not in this direction. That was the direction towards
17 the open space. And now it's turning towards the -- the area where the
18 prisoners were, this area here.
19 Q. We might stop there, 8 minutes, 50.
20 MR. MITCHELL: Mr. President, if I can tender that clip.
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes. That will be admitted.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P4289, Your Honours.
23 MR. MITCHELL:
24 Q. Mr. Ruez, that finished the section on the Kravica warehouse.
25 We're going to move now to -- back to your book, 65 ter 3199, and if we
1 can look at page 119 in the hard copy and 129 in e-court. What we're
2 about to see is an aerial image of Bratunac city. And if you can just
3 briefly tell us who put those yellow markings on there, and then I think
4 there's a better photo of Bratunac that we'll take a quick look at.
5 A. So this is an aerial photograph dated 12 July. The interest of
6 it is only to point various locations of relevance.
7 Q. Well, why don't -- why don't we go to page 272 in the hard copy.
8 It's the very back page of the book. 282 in e-court. If we can rotate
9 that to the left. Maybe scroll down a little bit.
10 Okay. If you can explain to us the significance of these sites
11 that are marked here.
12 A. So, this is in order to spot in Bratunac town the main -- the
13 main places of -- of interest and where prisoners were locked into, the
14 locations of the buses, lines of buses that were in various parts of this
15 small town, so under the eyes of everyone. Everyone was aware of what
16 was going on in this small area due to the amount of people jammed on the
18 Q. Sorry, if I stop you there for a moment. What is the basis of
19 your knowledge that this is where the buses were?
20 A. It's a combination of mainly two sources, those who were inside
21 the locations or in lines of buses and also locations that were spotted
22 by the UN soldiers who were kept in Bratunac during these days and who
23 moved, for example, to go to the Bratunac Brigade for some of them who
24 saw buses in front.
25 Q. Okay. We can see on the left of the picture the old school, the
1 hangar, and the Vuk Karadzic school marked there.
2 A. Yes. These are the locations we already went through previously.
3 In addition, it spots the lines of buses in front of the Vihor garage,
4 also in front of the Vuk Karadzic school, a line of bus. Very close to
5 the Hotel Fontana, which is the hotel where during the 12 and -- yeah,
6 the 11th in the evening and the 12th in the morning where the meetings
7 with the so-called representatives of Srebrenica who were called in by
8 General Mladic. An interesting spot also is the location of the office
9 of Miroslav Deronjic, who was the SDS leader, in this -- in this area
10 right in the middle of where the situation took place. And there is
11 one -- one spot that we did not mark because the information was
12 confirmed later. We had information that people had been taken to a
13 place I never talked about, which is the soccer field, and it's only
14 after the guilty plea of Momir Nikolic that we could confirm, since there
15 was no one who survived the situation, that the prisoners were taken to
16 the soccer field and executed there.
17 Q. Perhaps you can just mark for us on this image where the soccer
18 field is.
19 A. [Marks]
20 Q. And just initial and date it.
21 A. [Marks]
22 JUDGE KWON: This is also part of aerial images provided by the
24 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, absolutely. Not exactly provided by the
25 US. In fact, it is aerial imagery that was used by the US forces in the
1 area as a kind of operational map, supportive map. It was not done
2 specifically for our purpose.
3 JUDGE KWON: So it was not taken on the day of 12th of July?
4 THE WITNESS: We have no date for this one.
5 JUDGE KWON: So you marked buses on several places in this.
6 Whether you, or -- I'm not sure whether it was you, but do you see buses
7 on this picture?
8 THE WITNESS: Absolutely not. It's a visual spotting of buses
9 according to the testimonies.
10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
11 MR. MITCHELL: If I can tender that marked image.
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes. That would be next exhibit.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P4290, Your Honours.
14 MR. MITCHELL:
15 Q. Can we go back now to page 120 in the hard copy, 130 in e-court.
16 Mr. Ruez, this is a picture of the three buildings that we just
17 referred to; is that correct?
18 A. Yes, it is.
19 Q. Do you know, are all those buildings still there today, or --
20 A. I would think so. The only one that could deserve total
21 destruction maybe would be this older hangar, but the rest is most
22 certainly in use. It's -- it's a panorama reconstructed, in fact. When
23 you enter the yard behind the Vuk Karadzic school, this shows roughly
24 what you would see. The back of the main school building at the left,
25 the gym after that, the white -- the white part of it, the side of a gym,
1 the hangar, and the so-called "old school."
2 Q. Some witnesses sometimes refer to a stadium or a playground in
3 Bratunac. Is that the same thing as the soccer field?
4 A. I would think so. I -- I don't know.
5 Q. Okay. Very briefly let's look at the next image, page 121 in
6 hard copy, 131 in e-court.
7 Now, this -- this is an aerial image that doesn't have a date on
8 it. Who removed the date from this image?
9 A. I can't remember, but the reason why probably the date was taken
10 away is because this one was initially used to mark -- well, both the
11 complex -- the school complex area and the line of buses as they were
12 during the night between the 13 and the 14. So though buses can be seen
13 on this photograph, that is of -- therefore probably dated 12 or 13, but
14 the goal was not to show where the buses were on the photo but where they
15 were later once all the prisoners were regrouped in Bratunac.
16 Q. So those -- the three red lines just represent where buses were,
17 not specifically on this image, but on the night of 13 July and the
18 circle is the Vuk Karadzic school complex?
19 A. Yes, absolutely.
20 Q. Let's move to another area, page 122 and 132 in e-court. Can you
21 tell us where the next series of photos relate to.
22 A. So this is the start of the following phase because we went
23 through the execution sites in the area that we call the area south which
24 is, in brackets, the non-organised killing process that occurred during
25 the day of the 13, and now we enter the area north where the really
1 thorough, well-organised extermination takes place during the days of
2 14 July, 15, and 16 July, 1995.
3 Q. Okay. So where's the specific site we're going to look at next?
4 A. The first one is the area of Orahovac where the first convoy of
5 prisoners that left Bratunac town, because one thing we did not say yet
6 is that after the -- the executions of the 13 July all the people who
7 were on the blue spots, the regroupment of prisoners, all of them were
8 then transported to Bratunac town. The reason why at the end of the day
9 of the 13 Bratunac town was completely jammed with these prisoners either
10 in hard facilities or in lines of buses and trucks because all these hard
11 facilities were full. And after around midnight, between 13 and 14 July,
12 the first columns of buses shipped all these prisoners towards the area
13 north where the security officers had the day before spotted detention
14 sites and close-by execution sites.
15 Q. Okay.
16 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President. I'm going to object. I
17 think the testimony is going far beyond the perimeters of the
18 Appeals Chamber decision. This witness is summarising a lot of evidence
19 he -- that has been received by the OTP by witnesses, not testifying to
20 things out of his own knowledge. I think it's legitimate for him to
21 depict any site that he would like to do that and explain to the Chamber
22 in general why he is depicting that site, but to be telling us about
23 exterminations, the involvement of security officers and the like is
24 simply something that should be done by witnesses themselves either
25 through live testimony or admission of their evidence under Rule 92 bis.
1 And under the Milosevic case decision, I think he's going too far.
2 MR. MITCHELL: If I can respond to --
3 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. But could you not simply rely on the
4 Chamber's commitment that it will not rely on this witness to find the
5 substantive matters.
6 MR. ROBINSON: We appreciate that commitment, but I would imagine
7 that you had the same commitment in the Milosevic case and the
8 Appeals Chamber said that the testimony is inadmissible, so it seems to
9 be a matter of admissibility --
10 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson, Mr. Ruez is different from the
11 Barney Kelly case.
12 Yes, Mr. Mitchell.
13 MR. MITCHELL: I was just going to say that, Mr. President. I
14 actually have copies of their decision here because I thought this might
15 come up. This situation is fundamentally different from the Milosevic
16 situation where an investigator was summarising witness statements and
17 then putting them before the Chamber, and there was no intention to bring
18 the underlying statements before the Chamber in this case. And as you've
19 seen, we've made an effort to refer back to the witnesses who Mr. Ruez is
20 relying on, and I think in the Milosevic appeal decision the
21 Appeals Chamber actually said the basic issue was whether the material
22 itself that was being summarised was itself admissible. That was really
23 the issue and whether the Defence would have an opportunity to challenge
24 that underlying evidence. In this case, they certainly will.
25 JUDGE KWON: But in any event, when Mr. Ruez said that the
1 security officers chose that or pointed out the position, I think it was
2 a bit of a stretch. Do you follow?
3 MR. MITCHELL: I do, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We can continue.
5 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you.
6 JUDGE BAIRD: Mr. Mitchell, when you made reference to the
7 exterminations, I think this might be one of the areas.
8 MR. MITCHELL: I take your point, Judge. Thank you.
9 Q. Mr. Ruez, we'll just stick to -- we'll go straight to the site
10 and start talking about some of the findings of your investigation. If
11 we can go to page 123 in the hard copy, 133 in e-court.
12 And before you tell us about this photo, can you describe what
13 was the first -- or the information that first led you to investigate
14 this site.
15 A. So we had a description of a school nearby Zvornik that had a gym
16 and that was close to a railroad line. We had difficulties to identify
17 the area since on the available maps we didn't have the railroad line,
18 but with the assistance of someone in Tuzla, we ended up with a map and
19 could spot this place. After having been there for the first time, we
20 could show the photographs which were identified by the witnesses.
21 Q. And can you just orient us on this specific picture, where the
22 school is, where the gym is, and if there are -- perhaps you can also
23 mark on it the direction of the road we can see just turning out to the
24 bottom left of the photo.
25 A. So this is the -- the school, the road being in front. This is
1 the gym -- labels. The gym. The school. The playground. This is the
2 direction towards the exit site. And this road here leads to the road
3 that goes from Zvornik to Tuzla, the Lasva road.
4 Q. Can you also just mark the playground that you referred to
6 A. [Marks]
7 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. That will be Exhibit P4291.
8 MR. MITCHELL:
9 Q. Now, Mr. Ruez, we can see this is referred to as the
10 Grbavci school. Is that the same as what's known now as the Orahovac
12 A. Yes, correct. We used the names at the early stages because
13 these were the names we had on the maps we had available, but indeed then
14 it changed and all these places are now under the name of Orahovac.
15 Q. Can we go to the next photo, please, 124 in the hard copy, 134 in
16 e-court. Can you explain or describe what we see in this photo and what
17 the significance of that particular fence is that you have labelled.
18 A. Yes. The witnesses told that when they arrived, the busses
19 stopped in front of the gym. They stepped inside by walking along a
20 fence, and before entering they had dropped their belongings on a stack
21 at this entrance. So on this picture you can see the asphalt road being
22 just in front, the school building at the right, the gym at the left and
23 this fence that leads towards the gym. That's one of the characteristics
24 that was later recognised by the witnesses.
25 Q. When you refer to the witnesses, can you see any of their names
1 on that list, and if you can, can you tell us their witness codes?
2 A. Yes. So the witnesses are three of them. KDZ064, the witness
4 Q. And I understand there is one of them who doesn't have a
6 A. Yes. He's Mevludin Oric.
7 Q. Okay. Could we go to the next photo, page 125, page 135 in
8 e-court. Can you tell us first what this photo is and what is the
9 significance of the labels "Entrance" and "Exit."
10 A. When entering the gym, the people step inside through the door
11 that is marked "Entrance." They were then brought to sit in this gym in
12 rows, each row having the back against the previous row, and at the
13 moment they started to bring the people to the execution site the little
14 groups, because it was with the little TAM trucks of little group by
15 little group, they were led through this exit door that leads first to a
16 wardrobe area where they were given a sip of water and getting
17 blindfolded, and then there is another exit door more on the
18 right - you'll see it later - from where they stepped inside the TAM
20 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next photo, page 126, 136 in e-court. And
21 if you can just describe both, what's on this photo and the next one, 126
22 and 127.
23 A. Mm-hmm. The witnesses say that from time to time if there was a
24 bit too much noise inside the warehouse, prisoners communicating each
25 with the others, those guarding them were -- fired shots in the air. So
1 this is a hole in the aluminum ceiling that shows a hole in this ceiling.
2 The arrow points to it.
3 Q. And the next photo, just very briefly, 127?
4 A. That is another shot showing a holes. A hole, a hole.
5 Q. So 128 in hard copy, 138 in e-court. Can you describe again what
6 this is.
7 A. This is a photograph that was used to show to the witnesses to
8 check if it matches the description they made of the line of windows
9 inside this warehouse, for those who were oriented towards these windows,
10 others facing the opposite direction.
11 Q. And did the witnesses confirm that this did match their -- their
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. The next page, please, 129 in the hard copy, 139 in e-court.
15 A. This is a closer shot of one of these windows with holes inside.
16 Q. Page 130, and 140 in e-court, please. And if you can describe to
17 us when this picture comes up -- if we can start with the structure in
18 the top left corner.
19 A. Mm-hmm.
20 Q. If you can describe what that is.
21 A. So this is a photograph with the date on it. It's the
22 11 April 1996. It was our first visit in order to have a -- a thorough
23 search of the place. The first visit was a very short stop during the
24 mission with John Shattuck in January 1996.
25 So on this one, at the top right we can see the structure of the
1 school. And --
2 Q. Perhaps you can actually mark this one. Thank you.
3 A. So this is the exit door of the wardrobe of the gym where the TAM
4 truck was waiting to take the people. That's the vehicle. And then
5 driving out, here is an area of rubbish after the cleaning of the school
6 but that was left there. So we went, as we always do, through the piles
7 of rubbish we come across in these spots.
8 Q. Now, just looking at the door just to the left of where you've
9 written gym, did that change in any day during your subsequent visits to
10 the site?
11 A. Yes. On the following visit to this place, this door was
12 completely sealed. But this one of April 1996 shows that it was not
13 sealed before later.
14 Q. Can you initial this photo and just date it, please.
15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Exhibit P4292.
16 MR. MITCHELL:
17 Q. Now, if we can go to the next page now, 131, 141 in e-court.
18 JUDGE KWON: Shall we take a break now if it is convenient?
19 MR. MITCHELL: It is convenient, Mr. President. Thank you.
20 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. We'll break for half an hour and resume
21 at quarter past 12.00.
22 --- Recess taken at 11.43 a.m.
23 --- On resuming at 12.16 p.m.
24 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Robinson.
25 MR. ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. President. I'd like to introduce
1 Nikola Sarajlic, who is from Republika Srpska, and is working as an
2 intern with our case managers. Thank you.
3 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
4 Yes, Mr. Mitchell.
5 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you, Mr. President.
6 Q. Can we please go to page 131 in your book, 141 in e-court.
7 Mr. Ruez, can you tell us, firstly starting with the big picture,
8 what are the items we're looking at, and where did they come from?
9 A. So, as I said there was this pile of rubbish in the courtyard --
10 playground, sorry, and going through the items we found inside we lined
11 up those of relevance, which were strips of cloth since the witnesses
12 told us that they were blindfolded before leaving the gym, as well as a
13 certain number of shell casings and also a few live ammunition that were
14 found there and that I handed for destruction.
15 Q. And is that the shell casings we can see in the inset picture in
16 the top right-hand corner?
17 A. Yes. These are the shell casings we found there.
18 Q. Next page, please, 132 in hard copy, 142 in e-court. If you can
19 just briefly describe what this photo shows, Mr. Ruez.
20 A. So this one shows various type of cloth, including some, but they
21 are attached to -- it's a piece of track from a tank or a bulldozer or
22 whatever, heavy machine.
23 Q. And we can see a date in the bottom right-hand corner of the
24 photo. Can you tell us what that date is?
25 A. Yes. It is the date of this mission, 11 of April, 1996.
1 Q. Next photo, please. 133 in hard copy, 143 in e-court. If you
2 can describe each of these photos starting with the one in the top
3 left-hand corner with the number 2.
4 A. All of them are examples of various types of cloth that were
5 found in the area with labels on them so that -- to identify them further
6 once they are turned into evidence.
7 Q. And these all came from that pile of rubbish in the playground in
8 the Orahovac school?
9 A. Yes. All those we found that day came from this pile of rubbish.
10 Q. Now, was any of the strips of cloth that you recovered from the
11 school analysed in any way?
12 A. Yes. I -- after this process since there were many, I made a
13 collection of the various obvious types by texture and colour, and all
14 those were sent to the forensic lab in order to be later on compared with
15 the same type of cloth that would be found in other areas or mainly those
16 found later in the mass graves.
17 MR. MITCHELL: And, Mr. President, just for the record,
18 Mr. Manning will be discussing those findings in a little more detail in
19 his evidence.
20 Q. Can we go to the next page, 134, and 144 in e-court. And
21 firstly, can you tell us when this photo was taken, what year?
22 A. So this one was taken not that same year, because this is how it
23 looked like after the April mission. So I can't remember precisely
24 the -- the date of this one, but it's at least the following season.
25 Q. And what's significant about it?
1 A. Only thing is that at this point it could not be able to match
2 the testimony of the witnesses, since they claimed having exited the gym
3 through this door. At this moment there had we not been in the place
4 before, it would be hard to think that someone could get out of this
6 Q. We're going to look at a short video now of the school, and again
7 same as last time, we won't have any sound, and if you can describe to us
8 what we're seeing in this video. It's 65 ter 40232A.
9 [Video-clip played]
10 MR. MITCHELL:
11 Q. If you can start off by telling us who took the video and when it
12 was taken?
13 A. I took the video, and it was in 1998. So here is the school
14 first seen from above. This one is not from 1998. It's the first
15 entrance in January 1996. The very first moment we could step inside for
16 a very short moment, just more or less get in and get out. It was during
17 the mission with John Shattuck. So that's where the people entered the
18 gym, the windows on the right, the door at the left from where -- this is
19 the entrance. This is the exit. And at that time there were still
20 cloths inside the gym. That's the -- the rubbish pile was most certainly
21 created after that. Here is already the garbage.
22 So now -- now this one is the one of the April mission. It's a
23 mixture of various different moments. This is the April mission. So
24 these are the shell casings seen on the previous photograph. At this
25 moment Peter Nicholson who filmed the video was counting them. That's
1 why it stays a bit long on -- on the picture.
2 Empty ammunition boxes, some gas canisters, and cloth.
3 MR. MITCHELL: I'd like to tender at that clip, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes. This will be admitted as Exhibit P4293.
5 MR. MITCHELL:
6 Q. Let's move on from the Orahovac school and go to page 135 of your
7 book, 145 in e-court. If you can just describe what's on this picture
8 and explain how you first came to find those two sites marked as
9 Execution site 1 and Execution site 2.
10 A. So on these two photographs that make only one, this
11 Grbavci school is labelled as being totally at the left of the picture --
12 Q. Mr. Ruez, if you want to mark this picture, please do so.
13 A. Everything is already marked on it. The arrow points to the
14 Grbavci school that is just at the limit of the frame at the left. On
15 top is the -- the straight line is the railroad, and more at the bottom
16 the asphalt road leading at approximately 800 metres to a left turn of a
17 small piece of dirt road that leads under the railroad, which is at a
18 height of a bit less than 3 metres, with a little tunnel underneath that
19 leads to the execution site, the first one that was used, the site 1, the
20 second site being, in fact, in front just at the edge of the road.
21 Finding this place could only be done with aerial imagery,
22 because it's -- the site is quite well hidden behind this railroad. None
23 of the witnesses could -- could have helped us finding it. Two of them
24 were talking about a distance of drive of a bit more than five minutes.
25 One of them said 20 minutes, but it's clear that the assessment of time
1 at such moments is quite difficult for these people, so we had no real
2 idea of the distance.
3 Q. Why don't we just bought there for a moment. We'll move to the
4 next photo, and then if you can continue your explanation. This is --
5 actually, we'll skip over one. Go to page 137 in the hard copy, 147 in
7 If you can continue your explanation.
8 A. So it's through an imagery request that we could spot precisely
9 where we had to orient ourselves, and as you can see on these two
10 photographs, the road to the school is marked on the left, the railroad,
11 and in this specific area at the 27 July one can see two areas of obvious
12 disturbance of soil. The one labelled LZ-2 is at the execution site 1
13 which is the one behind the railroad, bottom right; and the one at the
14 top is labelled LZ, 1 but in fact it's the execution site number 2.
15 Q. LZ refers to Lazete; is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And why are these sites called Lazete?
18 A. Because the name Orahovac came later and on the map we had at
19 that time, the area around Grbavci school was labelled as being Lazete.
20 This is why we gave it the code-name LZ, like Lazete.
21 Q. Let's go to the next page, page 138 in hard copy, 148 in e-court.
22 This is labelled LZ-2. If you can just briefly explain the significance
23 of the area that the yellow arrow is pointing to?
24 A. LZ-2 is in fact execution site 1 since the execution started with
25 those who were taken first out of the gym. Under this railroad which is,
1 as I said, on an elevation nearly 3 metres high is an underpass that then
2 leads to this open area. At the left a wood and at the right a field. I
3 don't remember what it was called or something like this. So it's in
4 this open space that the execution began.
5 Q. Let's go to the next page, 139 in hard copy, 149 in e-court. And
6 can you just tell us again, is this the LZ-1 or the LZ-2 site we're
7 looking at here?
8 A. This is LZ-2.
9 Q. And what are the yellow markers we can see on the ground?
10 A. So this being a preliminary mission in order to assess the site
11 and determine if there disturbance seen on the picture had indeed a
12 direct relationship with the events that we were looking into, we made a
13 surface check of this area of disturbance, and these markers spot various
14 items being in relation with the case.
15 Q. We'll look at a few of those items in more detail now. Can we go
16 to the next page, 140 in hard copy, and 150 in e-court.
17 If you can describe what the object next to the number 25 tag is
18 and what the basis of your knowledge is about this object.
19 A. We -- we were on this mission in company of Bill Haglund, and he
20 is the one who told us what these items, for most of them, were. This
21 one is a human femur, the number 25.
22 Q. Next photo, please, 141 in hard copy, 151 in e-court.
23 A. The 32 is a human jaw.
24 Q. And that was identified by Dr. Haglund?
25 A. Absolutely.
1 Q. Next page, please, 142 and 152 in e-court. What's the item just
2 in front of the number 17 tag?
3 A. This is a shell casing.
4 Q. Next photo, 143, page 153 in e-court.
5 JUDGE KWON: Excuse me, Mr. Mitchell.
6 MR. MITCHELL: Yes.
7 JUDGE KWON: Could we see page 137 briefly again. That's the
8 aerial image. So on this photo Grbavci school should be above the photo.
9 THE WITNESS: Yes. Above. Top right. Direction top right.
10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. I was confused with this direction of
11 the arrows, so it -- it didn't move that way. The other way round.
12 THE WITNESS: No, because where the arrow is they never went.
13 But there was no space to put the arrow at the top right because of the
14 marking of two areas of disturbed earth, but I will mark one reference
15 point. The way the vehicles, the little trucks brought the people is
16 this one. To site 1. And at the final stage, it was the site 2. Site 1
17 being Lazete 2, and site 2 being Lazete 1. But at the time we didn't
18 know about the real chronology of the events. The first assuming was
19 that they first used the most easy place, which is the Lazete 1 and then
20 the more remote one, but in reality it's totally reversed. The survivors
21 all talk about Lazete 2 which is the first execution site and there is
22 actually no survivors from the site -- the second site.
23 JUDGE KWON: Could you mark the arrow in order to know the
24 direction at the end of that line, yes. No, on the left side. You
25 marked the direction. The head of an arrow. No. "To school." Thank
2 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
3 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Shall we mark it as the next exhibit?
4 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P4294, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
6 MR. MITCHELL:
7 Q. Mr. Ruez, you just said the survivors all talk about Lazete 2.
8 Are they the three names that you provided earlier?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Thank you. Can we go back to --
11 JUDGE KWON: My apologies. I was told that the Registry just
12 lost the image. Could you kindly do the marking again.
13 THE WITNESS: Redoing it, no problem. [Marks]
14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
15 MR. MITCHELL:
16 Q. Let's go back to page 143 in the hard copy and 153 in e-court.
17 And if you can just describe the object to the right of the number 43
19 A. Yes. It's cloth, one knotted and one being a piece of clothing.
20 Q. And this is again at the LZ-2 site.
21 A. It is LZ-2, yes.
22 Q. And next photo, please, 143 -- 144 in hard copy, 154 in e-court.
23 A. This is just a larger view of -- of items we have shown, one
24 shell casing, the piece of cloth, just to show how the items are spread
25 due to the use of all this heavy equipment. The items on the surface are
1 spread all over the place.
2 Q. Next photo, please, 145 and 155 in e-court. First, is this still
3 the LZ-2 site?
4 A. Yes, it is.
5 Q. Now, what's the significance of the area that's marked by the
6 yellow tape in this photo?
7 A. So this area is most probably the one the witnesses are referring
8 to as a rest area for the soldiers who were executing the prisoners.
9 It's where they were reloading their guns.
10 Q. And did you go to the site with any of the three survivors?
11 A. With one of them we -- we went, and this is where we had the
12 confirmation that without aerial imagery, we would never have found the
13 spot even with the witness, since we walked along the asphalt road and he
14 passed by the site without recognising nothing, because from the road
15 you -- you could not see anything there. So we had to then orient him
16 right on the spot so that he could retake his bearings.
17 Q. Can you see his witness code on that list in front of you, the
18 particular individual you went there with?
19 A. Yes. KDZ064.
20 Q. Thank you. Can we go to the next page, please, 146 and 156 in
21 e-court. Now, can you tell us what the object in this photo is and where
22 it was found?
23 A. So this one was found on the so-called rest area among a few
24 others of these. It's a little -- it's a packaging of -- of rounds,
1 Q. Do you recall what type of ammunition the packaging is for?
2 A. It is written on the box. It's for 7.62 calibre ammunition.
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We can turn it around and zoom it further so
4 that ...
5 We can zoom in.
6 MR. MITCHELL: We could zoom maybe a bit more.
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes. 7.62, I see, yes.
8 THE WITNESS: It's the most common calibre in use by all the --
9 the small weaponry in use by the former JNA and all the army forces down
11 MR. MITCHELL:
12 Q. Let's go to the next photo, 147 in hard copy, 157 in e-court.
13 And again if you can describe what this object is and where it was found.
14 A. So this -- this one was found at the -- at the top of this
15 so-called rest area. One witness overheard the killers say when they
16 switched from one side to another, Take the ammunition box. And this one
17 was empty and left behind, obviously. It was just at the edge of the
18 wooden area at the top of this rest area.
19 Q. Let's go to the next photo, 148 and page 158 in e-court. And if
20 you can just describe.
21 A. So this is a metal box that contains more than 1.000 rounds
22 inside packaged -- inside smaller packets of paper packets, the ones that
23 we found, for example, on this rest area.
24 Q. And this is the same box we saw in the previous photo; is that
1 A. The -- the box that we saw on the round, the small white one, is
2 one of the many who are inside such an aluminum box.
3 Q. But the box immediately before this box on it's side -- perhaps
4 we can go back one page to 147. So this is the same box?
5 A. Oh, yes, yes. This is how we found it, and then I flipped it
6 over to take the photo of what it is.
7 Q. If we can go back to 148 and just zoom in on the box so we can
8 see the calibre of ammunition it contained.
9 If you could just read that out for the record, Mr. Ruez.
10 A. So 1200 -- it's maybe 86 or 66 - I don't read it very well - of
11 7.62, then it's in Cyrillic, but it's millimetre. It's the calibre of
12 ammunition. And the serial number of the box at the bottom.
13 Q. Let's go to the next photo, page 149 in hard copy, 159 in
14 e-court. And if you can -- well, firstly, this isn't a box that was
15 found at that site, is it?
16 A. No, not at all. We found it in a completely different location
17 where we were looking for possible -- possible burial place in a cave
18 where we didn't find any body, but we found an ammunition dump among
19 which was this metal and -- first wooden box, metal box inside and then
20 the little paper boxes, and I used this photograph in order to explain
21 how the packaging is. So the metal box we found is the same style of
22 metal box containing ammunition. On this one it's more even easy to
23 read, and inside are these smaller boxes that contain the rounds.
24 Q. So this is just purely an example?
25 A. That's purely an example to show how this packaging is made.
1 Q. Could we go to the next page, 150 in hard copy and 160 in
2 e-court. And this is the LZ-2 site again; is that correct?
3 A. Yes, it is correct.
4 Q. And if you can just explain the significance of the red arrow --
5 or the orange arrow.
6 A. So in fact again these -- the execution site is here. The -- the
7 rest area we were talking about is here, and this is the underpass that
8 leads from the school to the site, but once the execution here was over,
9 the witnesses said once the -- the entire meadow was full of bodies.
10 This was something for us later important, because when we found the site
11 on the opposite side, it's impossible to figure out that the site could
12 be covered with bodies because it's much too big, but this site, the
13 site 1 that witnesses talk about indeed has the sizes of -- due to the
14 amount of people who were later found could cover the entire area. So
15 after this execution was completed, the killers returned through this
16 underpass to hit the other side of the railroad line that is sandwiched
17 between the railroad line and the asphalt road.
18 Q. Thank you. Can you initial and date this, please.
19 A. [Marks]
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes. This will be the next exhibit.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P4295, Your Honours.
22 MR. MITCHELL:
23 Q. Let's go to the next photo, 151 in hard copy, 161 in e-court.
24 The next page, please, 161.
25 Can you briefly describe this to us, Mr. Ruez. And perhaps to
1 orient us, if you can put an arrow in the direction of where the LZ-2 is,
2 the LZ-2 site.
3 A. Yes. On the right is the railroad line that goes towards
4 Zvornik. One of the survivors, after having left the execution site 1,
5 went above this railroad line and walked until he saw the lights and
6 recognised the Zvornik area.
7 Underneath is the underpass, the site 1 being a -- LZ-2 being
8 here. So going underneath. This is the road to the school. So this is
9 the -- the last execution site. Those who were still in the school were
10 taken and just shot on this open area here.
11 Q. That's the area with the yellow circle?
12 A. Yes, the area with the yellow circle. This house did not exist
13 in that location during the summer 1995. It was constructed after.
14 Q. Could you also mark on this photo the direction the trucks took
15 to get to the LZ-2 site.
16 A. [Marks]
17 Q. Thank you. Can you initial and date this, please.
18 A. [Marks]
19 JUDGE KWON: Exhibit P4296.
20 MR. MITCHELL:
21 Q. Next page, please, 152 in hard copy and 162 in e-court. We're
22 going to see an aerial shot or photo taken from the air of these two
23 sites. If you can just orient us on this picture again.
24 A. So the -- the school being -- being at the left, bottom left.
25 Direction of the trucks towards the execution site, and then Lazete 1.
1 So on this one it's much clearer to see the situation, knowing that those
2 who survives in this place, except the one who walked the railroad, the
3 others they did hid through this direction, through the forest.
4 Q. Can you initial and date that one, please.
5 A. [Marks]
6 JUDGE KWON: Exhibit 4297.
7 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you, Mr. President.
8 Q. If we can go to the next page, 153 in hard copy and 163 in
9 e-court, and we'll just move briefly through the next three photos,
10 Mr. Ruez, and come to a video that shows much of the same material?
11 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
12 JUDGE KWON: There's some technical problems, but we can save the
13 image from video. We can carry on, Mr. Mitchell.
14 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you, Mr. President.
15 Q. Can we look at the next page, 153. It's 163 in e-court.
16 Mr. Ruez, if you can just briefly tell us what we can see in this photo?
17 A. So this is a rubbish dump site very close by of the Lazete 2 area
18 through which, as we always do, we went through in order to see if there
19 was any link with the previous site.
20 Q. Let's have a look at the next photo, 154, and 164 in e-court. If
21 you can very briefly tell us what this is.
22 A. So this is a part of the content of the -- the rubbish dump site.
23 We are in the beginning of the process of going through it.
24 In this place here, in fact it's mainly socks, hats. I mean,
25 personal belongings, let's call them like this. These ones. Clothing.
1 And more interesting also is these ones, but on the video I think you
2 wanted to show -- we can see more.
3 Q. We'll get to the video in a moment.
4 A. This is cloth, blindfold size.
5 MR. MITCHELL: Is it possible to save that, or are there
7 Q. Mr. Ruez, if you could initial and date. Thank you.
8 A. [Marks]
9 JUDGE KWON: This will be Exhibit P4298.
10 THE WITNESS: The same type of -- the same colour of -- as the
11 ones that were found at Grbavci school.
12 Q. Let's look at the next page, 155 and 165 in e-court. The yellow
13 arrow on the right points to that dump site that we just saw on the
14 previous two photos; is that right?
15 A. Yes, that's right. The dump site is precisely here.
16 JUDGE KWON: I don't think we need to mark -- keep this
18 MR. MITCHELL: No. We won't take this one, Mr. President.
19 Q. I'd like to show you a video now, Mr. Ruez, and as with the last
20 two, we'll turn off the sound and just have you describe what we're
21 looking at. This is 65 ter 40226A.
22 [Video-clip played]
23 THE WITNESS: So, again, an aerial view of the school and then
24 the road leading to the execution site at the left of it. So we turn
25 around in order to -- to show the distance between the school and the
1 site, but we measured the distance with a true metre. And I think I
2 remember it, it was 800 metres.
3 So here the turn left, going through the underpass, the railroad.
4 So now seen from the ground. The LZ-2.
5 MR. MITCHELL:
6 Q. Do you recall when this video was taken?
7 A. Yes. It was the -- hmm. It was during this first -- this first
8 mission, so I think we had the date on the photos, if I'm not wrong.
9 Q. We can come back to that. If you --
10 A. Probably it was April. It was the mission of April.
11 Q. If you could just continue with the --
12 A. April 1996. Mm-hmm.
13 Q. If you could continue with the description of the image?
14 A. So that's the beginning of a dig. And this specific mud is
15 created by the decomposition of the bodies. It's green-ish. Makes a
16 clear difference with the normal soil. It's the decomposition that makes
17 the mud be so greenish. A shell casing, clothing. The initial dig was,
18 as you can imagine, not very easy because of the mud, the rain. So we
19 couldn't go really deep in this one, but there were enough items all
20 around to be quite certain that there were multiple bodies underneath. A
22 Q. Do you recall who this is in the footage at the moment?
23 A. Yes. This is Bill Haglund with yellow clothing and the red
24 rubber gloves. Bill was on these preliminary missions, and it is thanks
25 to his presence that the exhumation process could start at the very early
1 stage, as soon as 1996.
2 That is the area of rubbish where the dump site was found.
3 Behind these bushes one can see the road line -- the railroad, sorry.
4 And that's now the result of the search done in this -- on this
5 site. So at this moment we are describing the items. So these are
6 socks. Describing and counting. Hats. And pieces of cloth. I think
7 there were some 110 pieces left in the dump site. Some of them being
8 without -- without further technical expertise that was done by the lab,
9 but clearly obviously the same ones than those at the Grbavci school, but
10 the connections were made later also with the grave and so on.
11 Dean Manning will be the one unfolding all this.
12 Ammunition, some live, some used. It's a canister of something.
13 Some personal items. Some photographs.
14 MR. MITCHELL: I'd like to tender that video, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes. That will be Exhibit P4299.
16 MR. MITCHELL: Mr. President, we're going to move to a completely
17 new site now. I can start if you'd like, or we can start with a fresh
18 site on Monday.
19 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Let's adjourn for today.
20 Mr. Ruez, in order to accommodate the next witness, I was told
21 that Prosecution has decided to interpose his evidence during your
22 testimony, so I apologise on -- on behalf -- for your inconvenience.
23 On Monday we'll start in the afternoon, i.e., quarter past 2.00,
24 and we'll hear evidence of Mr. Haglund. Is that correct?
25 MR. MITCHELL: Mr. President, what might be easier is Dr. Haglund
1 has to leave by the end of Tuesday, so I can finish Mr. Ruez's direct and
2 then have Dr. Haglund and then Mr. Ruez's cross just so it doesn't get
3 too chopped up.
4 JUDGE KWON: Very well, if that suits you. I take it there's no
5 position from the Defence.
6 MR. ROBINSON: No, that's fine.
7 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. We'll do so.
8 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 JUDGE KWON: The hearing is adjourned.
10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.10 p.m.
11 to be reconvened on Monday, the 30th day
12 of January, 2012, at 2.15 p.m.