Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 23810

 1                           Monday, 30 January 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good afternoon, everyone.  Good afternoon,

 7     Mr. Robinson.

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, good afternoon, Mr. President, everyone.  I

 9     would like to introduce to the Trial Chamber our legal intern from

10     Australia, Marina Stanisavljevic.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Robinson.

12             Mr. Mitchell, I was told by the Registry that we probably need to

13     do a couple of markings, i.e., P4294 and 95 because they were lost.  The

14     time for that will not be counted as Prosecution time.

15             MR. MITCHELL:  Thank you, Mr. President, Good afternoon.  I will

16     go through those two exhibits now.

17                           WITNESS:  JEAN-RENE RUEZ [Resumed]

18                           Examination by Mr. Mitchell:  [Continued]

19        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Ruez.

20        A.   Good afternoon.

21        Q.   Can we please go to 65 ter 3199, page 137 in the hard copy and

22     147 in e-court.

23             Mr. Ruez, this is an image that you marked last week, and

24     unfortunately we need to do the markings again, so I'll just ask you to

25     put on this picture the same markings that were done last week.

Page 23811

 1             If you can first mark the LZ-1 and LZ-2 grave areas on the

 2     left-hand image.

 3        A.   [Marks]

 4        Q.   Then the direction to the school.

 5        A.   [Marks]

 6        Q.   And the third thing is the path that the trucks would take coming

 7     from the school to the LZ-2 site.  If you can --

 8             THE ACCUSED:  Sorry, I don't have anything in my ears.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  You do not hear any interpretation?

10             THE ACCUSED:  Not even original.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Did you turn up the volume?  Now are you hearing me,

12     Mr. Karadzic?

13             THE ACCUSED:  No, nothing.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Now do you hear me, Mr. Karadzic?

15             THE ACCUSED:  Yes.  Yes, now I hear.  The original probably would

16     be -- yes.

17             JUDGE KWON:  So I'll say something in English --

18             THE ACCUSED:  Thank you.

19             JUDGE KWON:  -- and check whether you're hearing the

20     interpretation.

21             THE ACCUSED:  Yes, I hear.  Probably they hear me too.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

23             THE ACCUSED:  Sorry.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  I think we can carry on without having to

25     repeat what has been done.

Page 23812

 1             Yes, please carry on, Mr. Mitchell.

 2             MR. MITCHELL:  That can be tendered, Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  That's Exhibit P4294.  We are going to replace

 4     it.  Yes.

 5             MR. MITCHELL:

 6        Q.   Can we please now go to page 160 in e-court.  It's page 150 in

 7     the hard copy.  And there are two things I'd like you to mark on this,

 8     Mr. Ruez, when it comes up.  The first is the rest area that you

 9     identified.

10        A.   [Marks]

11        Q.   And the second was an area you marked "Exec" or "Execution" area.

12        A.   [Marks]

13             MR. MITCHELL:  And that was P4295, Mr. President.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

15             MR. MITCHELL:

16        Q.   Now, if we can go to page 156 in the hard copy now and 166 in

17     e-court.  And, Mr. Ruez, if you can tell us which site the next series of

18     photos relate to.

19        A.   This is the area of Petkovci with the execution site at the dam,

20     Karakaj dam.

21        Q.   Now, of the Petkovci school and the Petkovci dam, which was the

22     first of those locations that was identified by the investigation?

23        A.   The first site was easy to identify because it is the dam which

24     is a well-known place in this area, and the school was located because of

25     the statements of two persons who survived the execution and who went

Page 23813

 1     through this detention site, the school of Petkovci, which was at a very

 2     close distance and that we could find by asking locally.  It was an easy

 3     thing to find.

 4        Q.   How did you find the dam itself?

 5        A.   From a map, I would think, and in addition to also the request of

 6     aerial imagery.

 7        Q.   Let's go to the next page, page 157 in the hard copy, 167 in

 8     e-court.  If you can briefly describe this photo to us, Mr. Ruez.

 9        A.   So this is a photo taken from a helicopter.  The school is

10     clearly visible on -- on the -- on the picture, and at the bottom it is

11     the road going to the left to the little place named Petkovci, and to the

12     right it goes to the national road that leads to Karakaj, mainly Zvornik,

13     Zvornik.

14        Q.   Now, how far is it from this school to the site at Petkovci dam?

15        A.   It's a close distance of a little bit more than 1 kilometre,

16     maybe 2.

17        Q.   Let's go to the next page, 158 in the hard copy, 168 in e-court.

18     If you can briefly describe what this is.

19        A.   This is a closer view from the facade of the school seen from the

20     road.  It's aim is to show a part of the statement of the witnesses, one

21     at least of them having claimed that soldiers were guarding this area,

22     and when people were inside the classroom were standing up, shots were

23     fired in their direction.

24        Q.   Let's jump over to page 160 in the hard copy and 170 in e-court.

25     If you can tell us what -- what we're looking at in this image.

Page 23814

 1        A.   This is the back of the school.  This is the location described

 2     by the witnesses when they say having stepped out of the vehicle to go

 3     towards the entrance of the school having to run between two rows of

 4     soldiers who were beating them on the way.

 5        Q.   And is there any significance to the steps that we can see in the

 6     middle of the picture?

 7        A.   Yes, because the -- the back of the school is very different from

 8     the front, and this is the description that the witnesses gave, and

 9     mainly the feature they recognised when they were shown the photograph,

10     to identify that this was indeed the relevant location.

11        Q.   Let's jump to page 163 now in the hard copy, 173 in e-court.

12             JUDGE KWON:  In the meantime, Mr. Mitchell, we skipped page 159.

13     Can I ask the significance of the arrow which appears on that page.

14     Could we ask the witness.  Should we upload it, e-court page 169, I take

15     it.

16             THE WITNESS:  Mm-hmm.  Yes.  This was the picture just before the

17     close-up on the entrance of the school.  The arrow points the -- the

18     building, and the following photograph will be a closer shot of the

19     entrance that can also be seen on this larger view of the school.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Let's go back to page 163, e-court 173.

21             Thank you, Mr. Ruez.

22             MR. MITCHELL:

23        Q.   Mr. Ruez, if you can describe what we're looking at here, and in

24     particular what those doors leading off to the right are?

25        A.   Yes.  When -- when we later -- I mean, when we first showed this

Page 23815

 1     picture, if I remember well, first we showed the picture, and the

 2     witness, at least the one I had interviewed, who is the witness KDZ069,

 3     said that once having walked stairs going to the upper floor of the

 4     school, he -- and was in a corridor and he entered the last school room

 5     in this corridor, which is then the last door that can be seen on the

 6     right of the -- this corridor.

 7        Q.   The next page, please, 164 in hard copy, 174 in e-court.  Now,

 8     what does this photo show us?

 9        A.   So this one shows, in fact, the classroom in which the witness

10     was.  He had described a stove.  There was indeed a stove, though the

11     classroom on this picture had been renewed since July 1995, but

12     nevertheless, you could -- there were elements here that were described

13     by him.

14        Q.   At page 165 in the hard copy, 175 in e-court.  If you can tell us

15     what those white circles ...

16        A.   So this is -- though the place was made new, the blackboard,

17     which in fact here is a green board, was still there, and the circles,

18     they mark the holes inside the blackboard, holes that could match shots

19     being fired from the outside towards the inside as the witness described.

20        Q.   And very briefly, the next photo, 166 in the hard copy and 176 in

21     e-court.  Is this a close-up of what we saw in the previous picture?

22        A.   Yes, it's a close-up.

23        Q.   Let's go to page 170 now, page 180 in e-court.  Now, first,

24     Mr. Ruez, if you can tell us what it is we're looking at here and when

25     this photo was taken.

Page 23816

 1        A.   So this is the -- the site to which vehicle after vehicle the

 2     prisoners who were inside the school we just went through were taken to.

 3     It's the plateau of the dam, of the Karakaj dam, which is an artificial

 4     lake from where the waste of an aluminum factory is pumped into.  And at

 5     this plateau at the bottom of the lake is a large, very large, flat area

 6     which was the place where the prisoners were then taken for execution.

 7        Q.   Can you orient us and tell us where's the water in the dam?

 8     Which direction would that be in this picture?

 9        A.   Should I mark the photograph?

10        Q.   I think you can just describe it in this one.

11        A.   The flat area being the plateau at the left of the picture is in

12     fact the wall of the dam, and at the top of this elevation, totally at

13     the end of it, is in fact the top of this barge.  And the line at the

14     right is the dirt road that leads then to the asphalt road, and very

15     close to the junction there is the school.

16        Q.   Page 172 in the hard copy, 82 in e-court, please.  And if you can

17     describe this photo to us, have you starting with the road on the very

18     left of the picture.  Can you tell us where that comes from?

19        A.   The road is the same one than the -- on the previous picture.

20     It's a better view.  It shows in fact the direction from where the trucks

21     were taking the prisoners to this plateau, and with a much, indeed,

22     better view of the size of this plateau.

23        Q.   What's the small inset picture and the blue arrow pointing to?

24     What's the significance of that?

25        A.   On the photograph in the little box is, in fact, the witness

Page 23817

 1     whose code-name I previously gave.  It was a day where we could bring him

 2     back in this area.  We couldn't go inside the school because of the

 3     presence of many people, but we could go back to the plateau.  And this

 4     is the more or less precise point where he was standing to show where he

 5     was roughly at the time he was executed there.

 6        Q.   If you could just read out his code-name again just to make it

 7     clear who we're talking about.

 8        A.   The witness KDZ069.

 9        Q.   Do you recall what year this photo was taken in?

10        A.   I think it was in 1998.

11        Q.   If we go to the next page, please, 173 in the hard copy and 183

12     in e-court.  If you can describe to us first what the feature is in the

13     bottom right foreground of the picture.

14        A.   Yes.  This is a view from another angle of this plateau.  Where

15     the white vehicles are at their right is the direction of the school.  At

16     the right of the vehicles, not behind the vehicles, this is another one

17     leading to the top of the -- of the dam.  And at the right is a concrete

18     ditch.  The goal of this photo is to show a feature described by the two

19     survivors of this spot who managed to crawl out of this plateau and then

20     entered, according to what they said, a ditch, concrete ditch.  This is a

21     ditch.

22        Q.   Next page, please, 174 in hard copy, 184 in e-court.  Now, we can

23     see on this image a black line and two blue arrows.  If you can tell us

24     first what the black line is.

25        A.   The black line is the limit of the -- what I call the plateau.

Page 23818

 1     The red area is indeed the -- the colour of the lake, which is chemical

 2     waste.  The arrows, in fact, mark the -- the direction that the two

 3     survivors claim having taken.  After having crawled inside the ditch,

 4     they crawled into a wooden area, which is a little -- in fact little

 5     wood, just on top of the small hill just in front of the plateau, and

 6     from there they took the direction the following day, the 15, the

 7     direction that is shown by the second blue arrow that goes on top of

 8     another -- of another hill.

 9        Q.   That's the dotted blue arrow.

10        A.   That's the second dotted blue arrow.

11        Q.   And the road that leads out the top of the picture, where does

12     that go to?

13        A.   This one is the road leading to the school.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Could we see the concrete -- concrete ditch on this

15     picture?

16             MR. MITCHELL:

17        Q.   Perhaps if you can mark it --

18        A.   Yes --

19        Q.   -- on this picture, Mr. Ruez.

20        A.   -- I think we do indeed.  The small white line should be the one.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Uh-huh.  Thank you.

22             MR. MITCHELL:  We should save that, Mr. President.

23        Q.   I think if you can initial and date it, Mr. Ruez.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  That will be the next Prosecution

25     exhibit.

Page 23819

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 4300, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

 3             MR. MITCHELL:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 4        Q.   Page 175 in the hard copy, 185 in e-court, please.  Again we can

 5     see two blue arrows in this image, Mr. Ruez.  If you can tell us what

 6     those two arrows represent.

 7        A.   The same situation than on the previous one seen from another

 8     angle.  The arrows show the direction of the escape route of the two

 9     survivors.

10        Q.   The next page, please, 176 in hard copy, 186 in e-court.  If you

11     can tell us what the significance of this particular image is.

12        A.   After the night during which the execution -- execution occurred,

13     the night between the 14 and 15 July, on 15 July, the two survivors who

14     were on the little hill in front of the plateau could overlook the

15     situation, and among the things they describe, they saw a little tractor

16     with a trailer on which the bodies were put on, and this little track

17     took the direction of the road that leads towards the top of the hill,

18     the plateau, but they couldn't see where this little vehicle was going.

19     We know that it was only the very beginning of the collection of bodies

20     on the plateau, since later this -- let's say this small tool was

21     replaced by an excavation on the spot.

22        Q.   Can you mark on this image the direction that the witnesses told

23     you they saw the tractor going.

24        A.   So the tractor was collecting the bodies who were on the

25     execution area and taking them towards the hill.  And probably once

Page 23820

 1     arrived in this curve they lost him from sight, since these ones they

 2     were sitting on top of this hill here.  At one point you cannot see any

 3     more the direction.

 4        Q.   The Chamber has heard evidence from Professor Wright who exhumed

 5     a grave on the plateau itself.  Were there any other areas he -- that

 6     were probed?

 7        A.   Yes.  In order to -- to find the -- the first groups of bodies

 8     collected by this -- this small method, we searched with aerial imagery

 9     all the surroundings and couldn't find anything of particular

10     significance, but the area we were focusing on was the -- what we call

11     the peninsula, and here we could just make very, very small probing

12     because there was a lot of chemical waste dumped on top of it, and this

13     led the process to be unrealistic with -- without really specific means.

14        Q.   If you can put a number 1 inside that area that you just

15     described as the peninsula.

16        A.   [Marks]

17             MR. MITCHELL:  If I can tender that, please, Mr. President.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  That will be Exhibit 4301.  Mr. Mitchell, in

19     the previous exhibit, i.e., Exhibit 4300, I was told that the Registry

20     missed the -- Mr. Ruez's initial and today's date, but I think we can do

21     without those things.  If you're okay, we can carry on.

22             MR. MITCHELL:  Probably for completeness we should go back and

23     put them on there.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we?  Shall we upload P4300.  Yes.  We see the

25     markings of -- yes.

Page 23821

 1             THE WITNESS:  Thanks.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Just put your name and the date.  Thank you.

 3             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

 4             JUDGE KWON:  And we keep this.  Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

 5             MR. MITCHELL:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 6        Q.   Page 177 in the hard copy now, and 187 in e-court.  Mr. Ruez, can

 7     you tell us first who's the person we can see in this picture?

 8        A.   The person is William Haglund.

 9        Q.   What are objects that we can see laid out on the square in front

10     of Dr. Haglund?

11        A.   This was our first ground fact -- fact-finding mission of

12     April 1996, and we made a very quick surface collection of items

13     scattered on the -- on this plateau and was a collection mainly at this

14     moment of bones.  It was certain their origin, and the presence of

15     Mr. Haglund enabled us to be sure that these were human bones.

16        Q.   Next page, please, 178 in hard copy, 188 in e-court.  Can you

17     tell us what the object that's circled in yellow is.

18        A.   Yes.  It is a knotted piece of cloth that was also found on this

19     plateau.

20        Q.   Next page, please, 179 in hard copy, 189 in e-court.  If you can

21     describe this?

22        A.   This is again the same piece of cloth.

23        Q.   Page 180 in the hard copy, 190 in e-court.  And can you describe

24     this to us, please?

25        A.   This is the result of a dig that we did on the surface of the

Page 23822

 1     plateau in order to have a possible assessment of what could be found

 2     underneath, since at that time we didn't know that the location had

 3     already been disturbed and the bodies taken away, but that day at -- at a

 4     depth of approximately 1.30 metre, it's quite hot to dig in this rocky

 5     place, but nevertheless we could find what the arrow points to is the --

 6     a piece of skull, of human skull.

 7        Q.   Who identified that as a piece of skull?

 8        A.   To be honest, we did without any pathological skills.  We -- we

 9     could find out it was a human skull.  That was not unconfirmed by the

10     pathologist who later saw the picture.

11        Q.   Next page, please, 181, 191 in e-court.

12        A.   This is the -- the bone we -- we took out of the -- this

13     preliminary dig.

14        Q.   And this was later shown to an anthropologist, is that correct,

15     Mr. Baraybar?

16        A.   Could be.  Maybe.  I would not be sure.  Anyhow, it has been

17     shown in court many times, and it was never challenged that it was not a

18     human skull.

19        Q.   Let's go to the next page, 182, page 192 in e-court.  Can you

20     describe what those objects are and who labelled them?

21        A.   So this was from, I think, even another mission where again, yes,

22     a side -- yes, okay.  Now I remember.  It was during a mission where we

23     collected shell casings on the surface of this plateau, and among also

24     these shell casings, in one area we found a lot of pieces of bones, that

25     we collected some of them, and Jose Baraybar was present with us, and he

Page 23823

 1     sorted them out by name according to the location they occupy in the

 2     human skull.  It's all bits and pieces of skull, which was nevertheless

 3     interesting since one witness overheard one of the killers saying to

 4     another one to stop shooting the people in the head because the spill of

 5     the brain became, after a while, too stinky.  And these bones were found

 6     on the surface of the plateau.

 7        Q.   We see in the top right-hand corner the number 1997.  Is that the

 8     year of this particular mission?

 9        A.   Yes, indeed.  It was in -- in 1997.

10        Q.   Can we look at the next page, please, 183 in the hard copy, 193

11     in e-court.  Can you tell us what is significant about this photo.

12        A.   This is the -- the result of the -- the -- the search of the

13     surface to collect shell casings.  The goal of the -- all these

14     collections of shell casings is designed to later on compare these shell

15     casings with those that could be found either in the primary graves or

16     when transported together with the bodies in the secondary graves.  It's

17     one of the links that allow us later to reconstruct the move of these

18     bodies between execution site, primary grave, and secondary grave.

19        Q.   Are those shell casings in the four plastic bags that we see down

20     the very bottom of this photo?

21        A.   I can't recall precisely if this was the final or if it was still

22     ongoing, but most probably it's the amount that was found still on the

23     surface, indeed, here.

24        Q.   Do you recall roughly how many there -- how many shell casings

25     were recovered from the surface?

Page 23824

 1        A.   From the surface I think it was around a thousand in total.

 2        Q.   Can we look at the next page, please, 184 in hard copy, 194 in

 3     e-court.  Can you explain to us the significance of the area that's

 4     bounded by the yellow dotted line?

 5        A.   This -- this marks roughly the area where we found the shell

 6     casings on the surface.  So one can conclude that this is roughly the --

 7     the size of the execution area.

 8        Q.   Is this also the area where the skull fragments were found?

 9        A.   Not on the total area.  I think there might be some mapping of

10     that that could have been done later by Professor Wright.  I'm not sure,

11     but it was not on the total of the surface.  It was only one part of it.

12     In fact, more at the bottom right of the -- of this -- of this area, if I

13     remember well.

14        Q.   Let's move to another area.  Page 185 in the hard copy, 195 in

15     e-court.  Can you tell us the next series of photos that we're going to

16     look at.

17        A.   Mm-hmm.

18        Q.   What location do they relate to?

19        A.   So this is the -- the third detention centre we found in the area

20     north, which is in connection with also, like all of them, with a nearby

21     execution site.

22        Q.   And what's the name of that site, the detention site first?

23        A.   The detention site is the school of Rocevic.

24        Q.   And the name of the associated execution site?

25        A.   It's the execution site of Kozluk at the edge of the Drina River.

Page 23825

 1        Q.   If we go to page 186 in the hard copy, 196 in e-court.  Can you

 2     describe what we've looking at here, Mr. Ruez.

 3        A.   So this is the school of the area named Rocevic.

 4        Q.   When you took this image, had it been confirmed yet that this was

 5     a detention site?

 6        A.   Honestly, I thought about it and I don't remember precisely.  It

 7     might not be the case that when I took the picture we already had the

 8     certainty that this was indeed the location of detention of those killed

 9     at Kozluk, but since it was the only school nearby, I might have taken

10     it, let's say, in advance.  But anyhow, their testimony is already in

11     records, I believe, I'm not even sure, of the members of the Bosnian Serb

12     Army who were guarding the prisoners in this school.

13        Q.   When you say "testimonies," you're referring to statements --

14        A.   Statements.

15        Q.   -- witness statements?

16        A.   Yes.  So for sure this is indeed the school.

17        Q.   The next page, please, 187 in e-court -- or 187 in hard copy, 197

18     in e-court.  And is this the same school at Rocevic in this image?

19        A.   Yes.  Absolutely, yeah.  It's a better view that shows the size

20     of it.

21        Q.   Does this school also have a gym attached to it?

22        A.   Yes.  You can see the gym bottom left of -- I mean the left of

23     this building.  It's a bit of the same style type of gym.  It is more or

24     less exactly the same type of gym than the one of the school at Orahovac.

25     It's exactly the same style of gym with the wardrobe in front.

Page 23826

 1        Q.   Page 188 in hard copy, 198 in e-court.  This is another map.  If

 2     you can just explain to us the significance of the yellow circle and the

 3     Red Star almost directly beneath it.

 4        A.   The yellow circle symbolises the location of the school, and the

 5     Red Star the position of the execution site, which is at the end of the

 6     dirt road leading from Kozluk to this spot, which is along the bank of

 7     the Drina River.  To go from the school you have first to drive along the

 8     asphalt road towards Kozluk, and inside Kozluk take the turn toward

 9     this -- this area.

10        Q.   How far, just roughly, is it from the Rocevic school to this site

11     at Kozluk?

12        A.   Less than 4 kilometres.

13        Q.   Can we look at the next page, please, 189 in the hard copy, 199

14     in e-court.  Mr. Ruez, can you tell us how you first came to identify

15     this site at Kozluk?

16        A.   We identified the site quite late, because all the processes were

17     ongoing.  The reconstruction of the events, I describe it as one phase,

18     but it's a phase that continued during all the years the investigation

19     lasted, even after my departure.  This one we got information, in fact,

20     from a source who was in a refugee camp in Germany, and the person was

21     still in contact with local friends in Republika Srpska, and the witness

22     in Germany heard that prisoners had been taken and shot at a location

23     name the Ferida pit, because this is an area of gravel that is taken for

24     construction, and the pits have names, and the location was Ferida pit.

25     So we -- the first thing we tried to identify was this area of gravel,

Page 23827

 1     but since we had no contacts with any locals in the area, we found in

 2     fact the place through an imagery request.

 3        Q.   Can we go to the next page, please, 190 in hard copy, 200 in

 4     e-court.  Can you explain what the significance of this photo is?

 5        A.   What happened is that during one of the missions in 2008, I

 6     happened to be at the exhumation site of the secondary gave in the valley

 7     of Cancari, on a site we name -- I mean, it's one of these graves, the

 8     number further in this road.  And at the moment I was there, they

 9     happened, the exhumators happened to find a stack of labels, an

10     embottlement of bottles on which was written Vitinka Kozluk, and the only

11     place we had never been to so far was to make a probe -- check and probe

12     this Ferida pit place.  So we -- the following day we went for a very

13     quick mission to this location because I knew that the Vitinka factory in

14     Kozluk was most certainly the area -- close to the area where we were

15     trying to find the execution site.  So this is, in fact, the labels which

16     then were found in this secondary grave.  They connect to this

17     embottlement factory.

18        Q.   And that was 1998 rather than 2008; is that right?

19        A.   Sorry.  1998, indeed.

20        Q.   Now, what was this factory being used for when you visited the

21     site in 1998?

22        A.   Well, one part of it, or at least just next to it was where the

23     barracks of a unit named the Drina Wolves, which belongs to the

24     Drina Corps.

25        Q.   Can we go to the next page, please, 190 in the hard copy -- 191

Page 23828

 1     in the hard copy, 201 in e-court.

 2        A.   The location is just at the beginning of the dirt road that leads

 3     to the execution site.

 4        Q.   Is this the same factory that we see in this image here?

 5        A.   Yes.  At the left is the factory, and here is the entrance of

 6     this military unit, the Drina Wolves.

 7        Q.   And this photo was taken in 1998; is that correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   How far are the Drina Wolves' barracks from the execution site at

10     Kozluk?

11        A.   It's a one-way road, and the site is at 1 kilometre.

12        Q.   Next page, 192 in hard copy, 202 in e-court.  Now, we're looking

13     at a split aerial image with two images, one dated 5 July 1995, one dated

14     17 July 1995.  And you'd previously mentioned that you made a request for

15     imagery.  Is this what you received in response to that request?

16        A.   Yes, this is the -- the one we were looking for and that enabled

17     us to -- to easily find the spot since, as one can see, the area of

18     disturbance is clearly visible.

19        Q.   Can we go to the next page, please, 193 in hard copy, 203 in

20     e-court.  And can you tell us when this photo was taken and what's

21     significant about it?

22        A.   As I said, when we were present during the exhumation of -- of

23     the secondary grave, there were labels, but there was also a lot of -- of

24     bits and pieces of green glass of bottles, and this is the one spot in

25     all this disturbed area where you can see not only the pieces of bottles

Page 23829

 1     but also on the right is a -- is a shoe, and inside is a -- is still a

 2     human feature inside the shoe.

 3        Q.   Do you recall what year this was taken in?

 4        A.   It was during this just go-and-return mission that we did with

 5     Jan Kruszewski and Professor Wright.

 6        Q.   In 1998?

 7        A.   Probably June, June or where along summer 1998.

 8        Q.   If we can go to the next page, please, 194 in the hard copy, 204

 9     in e-court.  If you can just describe this to us and in particular the

10     object that is next to the yellow tag on the blade of the shovel.

11        A.   Among the items of interest that we could see on the surface of

12     the disturbed area were also shell casings, and in this particular

13     photograph the shell casing is inside the shovel next to the little

14     yellow marker.

15        Q.   And can we go to the next photo, 195 in hard copy, 205 e-court.

16     Is this a close-up of the previous image that we saw?

17        A.   Yes, it is, the same one.

18        Q.   Can we go to 196 in hard copy, 206 in e-court.  And this is the

19     last photo for this site.  If you can describe to us what we see here.

20        A.   Yes.  Whilst we started to dig a little bit, in fact we quickly

21     stopped since we were in fact beginning an exhumation since just under

22     the soil we already found human bones with clothing and ...

23        Q.   I want to play now a video of the Kozluk site.  That's

24     65 ter 40280A.  And as with the videos last week, Mr. Ruez, we'll turn

25     off the sound and ask you to describe what we're looking at.

Page 23830

 1                           [Video-clip played]

 2             THE WITNESS:  So this is one part of the area of disturbance.

 3     That's the -- that's the human remains that were on the previous picture.

 4     In fact, this one we didn't dig it out.  It was just lying on the ground.

 5             MR. MITCHELL:

 6        Q.   For the record, that was around 35 seconds.

 7        A.   The -- the shoe with the sock and the bone inside, also lying on

 8     the ground.

 9        Q.   That was at 58 seconds.

10        A.   Another shoe.  Stacks of fiber glass also in many locations.  So

11     shell casings.  Many of them were -- when we -- we used a metal detector

12     just on the dirt path that goes along the area of disturbance, and there

13     were quite many of them embedded in the soil there.  At this moment,

14     filmed just next to the yellow markers.  Clothing, shoes.  Shell casing.

15     A shoe with a bone in it.

16             So that's indeed a check by digging just a little bit, but as I

17     said, we would have started an exhumation there.  Though the site had

18     been quite thoroughly disturbed and the bodies taken away, there were

19     still a lot of elements visible even on a very quick check like we did

20     that day.

21             And the location is also and was a cemetery.  So there are also

22     remnants of this cemetery.

23        Q.   Did you find any other headstones like the ones we just saw?

24        A.   We didn't check for that, but here is one of those labels that we

25     found in the secondary grave that we can also see here.  Makes the

Page 23831

 1     connection with the site.

 2        Q.   We're now at around 4 minutes, 15 seconds.  If you can describe

 3     what we're looking at here very briefly and then -- then we'll stop.

 4        A.   So this was a short film I took when we exited this area.  So a

 5     quick walk along the factory and mainly the entrance of the barracks of

 6     the Drina Wolves.

 7             MR. MITCHELL:  Can we stop there, please.  Can I tender that,

 8     Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  That will be admitted as the next Prosecution

10     exhibit.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 4302, Your Honours.

12             MR. MITCHELL:  Could we please go back to 65 ter 3199, page 197

13     in the hard copy, page 207 in the e-court.

14        Q.   And, Mr. Ruez, can you tell us what is the next location that

15     we're going to look at?

16        A.   So the next location is, again, a detention site with a nearby

17     execution site.  It's the detention site of Kula, and the execution site

18     of the Branjevo Farm.

19        Q.   And does the yellow circle on the map here indicate where the

20     Kula school is?

21        A.   Yes.  It's a rough indication of the location of the Kula school.

22        Q.   Can we please go to page 198 in the hard copy, 208 in e-court.

23     Mr. Ruez, can you tell us how did you first come to learn that this

24     school had been used as a detention site?

25        A.   The initial knowledge came from one survivor of -- of this spot.

Page 23832

 1     In fact, there were two of them.  And then it could be found due to the

 2     fact that in this area there -- it's the only one which has a gym

 3     attached to it.

 4        Q.   Can you see the name of that survivor who provided you with the

 5     initial information?  Is his name on the list in front of you?

 6        A.   In fact, both of them, I think, provided the information.

 7        Q.   If you can read out their witness codes, if you can see them in

 8     front of you.

 9        A.   Yes.  Yes.  The witness KDZ333 and KDZ167.

10        Q.   Can we go to the next page, please.  That's 199 in the hard copy,

11     209 in e-court.  Now, what does this photo show, Mr. Ruez?

12        A.   This one shows the -- the gravel road that leads to the school,

13     the point where the buses arrived and off-loaded the prisoners.

14        Q.   Next photo, please.  Number 200 in hard copy and 210 in e-court.

15     Now, what are we looking at in this photo?

16        A.   It's then the little path that leads to the entrance of the --

17     the school, where they went by foot.

18        Q.   Can you actually see the main entrance on this image?

19        A.   No.  It is right after the angle of this first building.

20        Q.   Let's go to the next photo, 201 in hard copy, 211 in e-court.  Is

21     this the main entrance to the school here?

22        A.   Yes.  It's the entrance and also the exit.  This is the location

23     where one of the witnesses, at least one, says that he was lined up with

24     others prior to be taken to the Branjevo Farm.  This is both the entrance

25     and the exit.

Page 23833

 1        Q.   And which witness was that, if you can tell us his code-name.

 2        A.   I would not be able to say which -- which of the two.

 3        Q.   Okay.

 4        A.   Maybe the two.

 5        Q.   Can we go to the next page, please, 202 in hard copy, 212 in

 6     e-court.  We're looking at another photo of the school from the air, and

 7     Mr. Ruez, if you can tell us the significance of the arrow pointing to a

 8     particular location which says, "Water source."

 9        A.   One of the witnesses who was kept inside the gym at one point was

10     tasked with -- I mean, to go and fetch water to bring inside the gym, and

11     he said having been to a very close-by water source from which, when he

12     returned, he saw a bus who arrived very late in the night, and the

13     prisoners were off-loaded off this bus, but since the location was

14     probably already stuffed with people, these ones were executed right on

15     the spot.

16        Q.   Do you recall which of the two witnesses this particular one is?

17        A.   He's the younger of the two.  I don't remember if it was 333 or

18     167, but he's the younger of the two.

19        Q.   Can we go to the next page, please, 203 in the hard copy, 213 in

20     e-court.  What's the feature we're looking at in the centre of this

21     photo?

22        A.   This is the water source.  We're looking around to find the water

23     source.  We found this one, and indeed he later recognised the picture.

24        Q.   Did you go to the location with this particular witness?

25        A.   No.  We didn't go back with the witness to this location.  I

Page 23834

 1     don't think so.

 2        Q.   So how did the witness recognise this particular location?

 3        A.   I think by picture.

 4        Q.   Can we go to the next page, please, 204 in hard copy, 214 in

 5     e-court.  If you can describe what we're looking at here and what the

 6     significance of the orange arrow that's pointing out towards the bottom

 7     of the picture is.

 8        A.   So the -- the orange -- orange arrow, in fact, is the line of

 9     sight that one can have when exiting the location where the water pump

10     is.  So this is when coming from the direction, that direction, that he

11     saw the prisoners who were taken off the bus, which was parked along the

12     gravel road at the -- at the front of the picture and where they were

13     just off-loaded and shot at on the spot.

14        Q.   Can we go to the next page, please, 205 in the hard copy, 215 in

15     e-court.  Just briefly if you can tell us what the structure is we're

16     looking at here and what the significance of the red circle right in the

17     centre of the picture is.

18        A.   In order to check his -- his statement regarding this small

19     execution at -- at the school, we are looking for left traces among which

20     on the facade of the building where this execution allegedly took place

21     there was, for example, one hole in the window.

22        Q.   Next page, please, 206 in hard copy, 216 in e-court.  And again

23     if you can tell us which structure we're looking at and what's

24     significant about this photo.

25        A.   So these are also traces on the -- on the wall of the -- this

Page 23835

 1     school building.

 2        Q.   Can we go to the next page, please, 207 in hard copy, 217 in

 3     e-court.  Now, this is the same -- up in the top left-hand corner, it's

 4     the same as photo number 200 that we saw earlier.  If you can describe

 5     now what the significance of this inset photo down the bottom right-hand

 6     corner is?

 7        A.   Yes.  Though this is again consistent with the angle of the

 8     shooting that the witness describes, and though holes have been filled,

 9     it's obvious that there are still some traces left behind.

10        Q.   Some traces of what exactly?

11        A.   Of holes consistent with bullet holes.

12        Q.   Can we go to the next page, please, 208 in hard copy, 218 in

13     e-court.  This page has two photos on it.  If you can start with the one

14     at the top and tell us what the significance of the area circled in red

15     is.

16        A.   This is the -- this is the area where the people were told having

17     been off-loaded and shot at.  The two areas marked in red are areas where

18     we found a concentration of shell casings embedded in -- in the soil.  So

19     one area on the gravel road and one more close to the possible execution

20     place nearby the school where the little trees are, at the bottom of

21     them, the foot of them.

22        Q.   Do you recall how many shell casings were recovered from these --

23     these two areas?

24        A.   No, I don't.  Not a large number.  Those were only the ones

25     embedded by people who stepped on them.

Page 23836

 1        Q.   Can we go to the next page, please, 209 in hard copy, 219.  We're

 2     looking at another map here.  We can see a yellow circle above Kula and a

 3     red cross next to Branjevo.  Can you explain the relationship between

 4     those two?

 5        A.   The same symbolics then for the other side.  The yellow marker

 6     spots the location of the detention site, so here the school of Kula.

 7     And the red star, the location of the execution side.

 8        Q.   Now, what first led you to investigate the Branjevo Farm?

 9        A.   The first lead to the Branjevo Farm was the statement given by

10     Drazen Erdemovic after he was shipped to The Hague coming from Serbia,

11     and who gave a description of the farm where he and others executed

12     prisoners from 10.00 in the morning through 3.00 in the afternoon on

13     16 July 1995.

14        Q.   Did these statements of the two survivors assist you in your

15     initial investigation at the site?

16        A.   No, because we had the statement of Drazen Erdemovic before

17     April 1996, and aside a very, very short mission that we did with

18     John Shattuck in January, the main mission was in April, and by then we

19     already had the details -- more details, let's say, from the statement of

20     Drazen Erdemovic than we had from the two survivors.

21        Q.   Can we go to the next page, please, 210 in hard copy, 220 in

22     e-court.  Now, if you can describe this image to us, and perhaps mark it

23     and point out, describe what the buildings are that we can see in this

24     image?

25        A.   The prisoners arrived by buses, and the busses were taking this

Page 23837

 1     little access path where they were parking.  The prisoners unloaded,

 2     walked towards this line here.  Those buildings are, in fact, a pigstry

 3     [sic] here.  It's a military farm growing corn and raising pigs.  Here

 4     pigstry.  This is the admin building, and this is a garage.

 5             The -- the execution teams were -- had their rest area, number

 6     one, just behind this garage.  So that's the rest area.

 7        Q.   And can you orient us with the road running along the very top

 8     right of the picture that we can just see.  Where does that road go to?

 9        A.   In fact, it goes nowhere.  It's a dirt road that then if you take

10     it returns to close by an area named Pilica where there only you have

11     national road going from Zvornik at the south towards Bijeljina at the

12     north.  But from the farm you cannot see this -- this asphalt road.  The

13     farm is behind a -- a soft hill.

14        Q.   Can you just put a B next to the area where you marked buses were

15     parked and then initial and date this.

16        A.   [Marks]

17             JUDGE KWON:  Will that be Exhibit P4303?  Yes.  Shall we take a

18     break if it is convenient, Mr. Mitchell?

19             MR. MITCHELL:  Yes, Mr. President.

20             JUDGE KWON:  We'll break for 25 minutes and resume at 4.00.

21                           --- Recess taken at 3.34 p.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 4.05 p.m.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

24             MR. MITCHELL:  Thank you, Mr. President.

25        Q.   Mr. Ruez, I'd like to go back to the Kula school just briefly.

Page 23838

 1     Earlier today, at page 24 I asked whether you had gone to that location

 2     with a particular witness, and you said, "No.  We didn't go back with the

 3     witness to this location.  I don't think so."  And then a little bit

 4     later on, on page 26, I asked you if you recalled how many shell casings

 5     were recovered from two areas at the Kula school, and you didn't recall

 6     the specific number.

 7             What I'd like to do is show you an information report from

 8     20 June 1999, and see if it can assist your recollection on these two

 9     points.

10             MR. MITCHELL:  If I can pass a hard copy to the witness.  This

11     can't be broadcast.  Mr. President, there are copies for the Judges up

12     there as well.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

14             MR. MITCHELL:

15        Q.   Mr. Ruez, just take your time and read through this information

16     report.

17        A.   Yes, yes.  There.

18        Q.   Does this assist you remembering - --

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   -- whether you went to the Kula school with this witness?

21        A.   Yes, sure, indeed.  Absolutely.

22        Q.   And can you tell us what his code is, this particular witness?

23        A.   He's the young one.  He's KDZ333.

24        Q.   Can I just direct you to the top of the second stage.  Does that

25     assist your recollection of how many shell casings were recovered from

Page 23839

 1     this school?

 2        A.   Yes.  Absolutely, yes, yes.

 3        Q.   And if you recall, we saw two areas that you had circled in red,

 4     a rectangular area on the gravel road and a circular area in some trees.

 5     Is that the two areas where these 22 shell casings were recovered from?

 6        A.   The round circle was the one probably where we found the 22 north

 7     of the gravel road.  Yeah.  Well, yes, I mean, that -- these are the

 8     numbers.  Anyhow, the -- this report is much more accurate than whatever

 9     my recollection today of it could be.

10             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, if I could move to add that to our

11     65 ter list and then have it admitted, we'll make a redacted version and

12     have it uploaded into e-court.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  I take it there's no position from the

14     Defence.

15             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, Mr. President, I don't think it's really

16     appropriate to be admitting a witness statement in this fashion.  I think

17     he's read into the record the answers that are necessary, and I think

18     that would be preferable.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE KWON:  We see a point in Mr. Robinson's observation.  We

21     don't need to admit this statement, this report.  It's read into the

22     transcript and the witness confirmed the identity of this witness.

23             MR. MITCHELL:  Thank you, Mr. President.  If I can just put a

24     couple of details in of the report --

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

Page 23840

 1             MR. MITCHELL:  -- on the record.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 3             MR. MITCHELL:  It's an information report of a visit to the

 4     school of Pilica and the Branjevo Farm on 20 June 1999, and the ERN is --

 5     one moment.

 6                           [Prosecution counsel and Case Manager confer]

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  This is not the statement of this --

 8     this witness.  This is a report of Mr. Ruez, and --

 9             MR. MITCHELL:  It's a report by Mr. Ruez of his visit to these

10     sites.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Either is fine.  Let's go -- it's not

12     very important.  Let's continue.

13             MR. MITCHELL:  The ERN of that statement is R1078147 -- R1078149.

14        Q.   Can we please go now to page 211 in the hard copy of the photo

15     book and 221 in e-court.

16             Mr. Ruez, if you can look at this photo in front of you and

17     explain to us what angle we're looking at it from now.

18        A.   Yes.  So it is -- this photo is taken from the -- the little

19     access path that leads to the farm.  So at the left you can see the --

20     the two pigstry buildings, in front the admin building, and at the right

21     of it the garage, and on the field on the right where the helicopter is

22     parked is the area of the execution field.

23        Q.   And this -- what you describe as the access path, is this the

24     route that the buses took to get into the farm?

25        A.   Yes, absolutely.

Page 23841

 1        Q.   If we go to the next page, please, 212 in the hard copy, 222 in

 2     e-court.  I'll ask you to mark some things on this next image.

 3             If you can first orient us on the road that's running along the

 4     bottom of the picture.

 5        A.   So this is the -- the road coming from Pilica to the farm.  This

 6     is the access road.  Where the vehicles are is also the area where the

 7     buses were coming to.

 8        Q.   If you can put an arrow in the direction of Pilica on that road.

 9        A.   [Marks]

10        Q.   And if you can put a circle around the garage and mark it with a

11     G.

12        A.   [Marks]

13        Q.   And then circle the area where the execution took place.

14        A.   [Marks]

15        Q.   And can you see on this image the area where a grave was exhumed

16     by Dr. Haglund in 1996?

17        A.   [Marks]

18        Q.   If you can initial and date this, please.

19        A.   [Marks]

20        Q.   And do you recall what date this particular photo was taken in?

21        A.   It was taken -- I took it from a helicopter.  It was the day

22     where -- when Madeleine Albright came -- came on this site.  I think this

23     was in 1998, summer 1998.

24        Q.   Any of those buildings that we can see?

25        A.   Sorry, no.  It was much earlier than that, much, much earlier

Page 23842

 1     than that.  That was end of 1996.  End of 1996, probably August 1996.

 2        Q.   Now, the four buildings we can see, the two pigsties, the admin

 3     buildings and the garage that you've described, are they still there

 4     today?

 5        A.   No, not at all.  Now there is a village on this spot.  I returned

 6     there.  It was in 2002 and there was nothing left.  The only thing I

 7     could find on that trip was foundation of one part of the pigstry

 8     buildings.  There is still absolutely nothing left from this place.  Now

 9     it is a village.

10             MR. MITCHELL:  May I tender that, Mr. President.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

12             THE WITNESS:  A settlement of houses.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 4304, Your Honours.

14             MR. MITCHELL:

15        Q.   The next page we'll look at is 213 in the hard copy, 223 in

16     e-court.  Mr. Ruez, if you can tell us which building it is that we can

17     see on the far left of this picture.

18        A.   So this is precisely the area where the prisoners were marching

19     towards.  At the left is the garage, behind which the execution teams had

20     their rest area, and this tree is a tree that one of the witness referred

21     to also in one of the statements, saying that there was this -- this tree

22     just before the -- the area where they had to line up after the -- the

23     rows of bodies of those who had already been killed there.  The tree is

24     something he describes also.

25        Q.   The open area we can see on the right-hand side of the picture,

Page 23843

 1     if -- past the tree, what's the significance of that open area?

 2        A.   This is the execution field now.

 3        Q.   The next page, please, 214 in hard copy, 224 in e-court.  Can you

 4     describe where we are now, where this photo was taken?

 5        A.   So this photo was -- I took it at the moment we went there for a

 6     very short incursion, just to check if the location was the good one, and

 7     in this area here, which is in fact after the garage to the left, here we

 8     are right on the area of the execution, we were beginning to find some --

 9     some shoes and some human bones that were, in fact, along this -- along

10     this line of trees, of bushes.

11        Q.   We're going to look briefly at some of the items you found.  Can

12     we go to the next page, 215 in hard copy, 225 in e-court.  Mr. Ruez, if

13     you can tell us what this item is and where it was found?

14        A.   This was a shoe found in the bushes in the area seen on the

15     previous photograph.

16        Q.   The next page, 216 in hard copy, 226 in e-court.  Again, if you

17     can tell us what those are, what these objects are, and where they were

18     found.

19        A.   These ones were found in the same area, at this tree line and

20     bush line, and these are human bones.  A rib, a piece of pelvis, and

21     another bone.

22        Q.   Who identified them as human bones?

23        A.   They were later identified on -- based on the photographs.

24        Q.   And who was that by?

25        A.   Sorry?

Page 23844

 1        Q.   Who did the identification?

 2        A.   I don't remember to who we showed them.  It could be probably to

 3     Bill Haglund at that time.  It was probably to Mr. Haglund.

 4        Q.   Could we go to the next page, please, 217 in around copy, 227 in

 5     e-court.  What can we see in this photo and where was it found?

 6        A.   So this is also in this line of -- of bushes, and this is a human

 7     skull.

 8        Q.   Go to the next page, please, 218 in the hard copy, 228 in

 9     e-court.  Now, this is an aerial image dated 17 July 1995, the Branjevo

10     state farm.  Mr. Ruez, if you can tell us what the significance of the

11     two dotted yellow lines in the middle left of the picture are?

12        A.   On one of the missions we did on this farm, we made a collection

13     process of finding shell casings on the surface of this area, and this is

14     a rough indication, shorter than the reality of what we found, but to be

15     conservative it is shorter and narrower.  And this is the rough area

16     where we collected shell casings on the surface, knowing that this area

17     had already been used for agricultural purposes and that most probably

18     most of the shell casings were no longer on the surface.

19        Q.   Can we go to the next page, please, 219 in e-court -- 219 in hard

20     copy, 229 in e-court.  Now, Mr. Ruez, we can see two different coloured

21     labels on this image.  Can you explain why there are two different

22     colours?

23        A.   Yes.  In fact, it's a combination of the label -- the yellow

24     ones, I -- I made them with the red arrows showing the direction of the

25     arrival of the buses.  The white ones are the original markings of the

Page 23845

 1     provider, but the orange ones are also the ones of the provider, except

 2     "Excavator digging."  It was not labelled as such.  It might have been

 3     labelled "Heavy equipment," or something like this, but "Probable

 4     bodies," "Piles of earth," and on the top line of "Bodies," this was on

 5     the original picture.

 6        Q.   Let's go briefly to 65 ter 3959.  When it comes up, this is

 7     another -- an aerial image.  My apologies, 3959.  This is an aerial image

 8     dated 17 July 1995.  Can you tell us who put these markings on this

 9     particular image.

10             Is this the original image from the provider which you used to

11     make the orange markings on the photo in the book you've just seen?

12        A.   I'm quite sure that it is, but it's a strange picture, because

13     what is white is black and reversed.  So everything is reversed.  It's

14     like a negative of a picture.  It's completely reversed.  The colours are

15     the opposite.  What is white should be black, and what is black should be

16     white.  So I would not be able to fully confirm it's the original one,

17     because the original ones always have the writing on -- black on white.

18     Here it's -- everything is opposite.  Everything what is black should be

19     white and everything what is white should be black.

20             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, if I could hand the witness a hard

21     copy of the image in the form we received it in.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we put it on the ELMO.

23             MR. MITCHELL:  Yes.  Thank you.

24             THE WITNESS:  I recognise it without any problem.  This is the

25     original one, indeed.

Page 23846

 1             MR. MITCHELL:

 2        Q.   Is this image the basis for the orange markings that are on

 3     page 119 of your book?

 4        A.   Yes, it is.

 5             MR. MITCHELL:  I tender that, Mr. President.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Can you explain the difference between the hard copy

 7     and -- and the one which is in the e-court?

 8             THE WITNESS:  The original one is in the normal black and white

 9     colours.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  I'm asking Mr. Mitchell.

11             THE WITNESS:  Oh, sorry.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Because you were not able to explain this.

13             Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

14             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, I've -- I believe it's -- it's the

15     same image.  It's something to do with, I believe, the way it was scanned

16     in.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Oh, you can scan this one again.

18             MR. MITCHELL:  Yes.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Can I hear from Mr. Robinson, if you have any

20     objection or any observation?

21             MR. ROBINSON:  No, Mr. President.

22             JUDGE KWON:  The original can be scanned again and tendered.

23             MR. MITCHELL:  Yes, Mr. President.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we give the number.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P4305, Your Honours.

Page 23847

 1             MR. MITCHELL:

 2        Q.   If we can go back to 65 ter 3199, page 220 in the hard copy and

 3     230 in e-court.

 4             Again, we have two aerial images.  The one on the left dated

 5     21 September 1995, and the one on the right dated 5 July 1995.  Can you

 6     tell us the significance of the yellow arrow that we can see in the

 7     bottom half of these two images?

 8        A.   The yellow arrow shows the location where on 5th July was nothing

 9     disturbed on the soil, and on the 21st, the area of disturbance where the

10     location of the mass grave can be clearly seen.

11        Q.   Next page, please, 221 in the hard copy and 231 in e-court.  Can

12     you describe what this is in this image?

13        A.   Yes, these are human remains that were on the surface at the time

14     we went there for the very first entrance in the farm, and this was found

15     right at the -- at the end of the grave.  It's something that has

16     obviously been pushed by the -- the heavy machine and left in the -- in

17     the bushes.

18        Q.   I'm going to play a video now of this site, and again we'll turn

19     the sound off and I'll ask you to describe what we're seeing.  It's

20     65 ter 40227A.

21                           [Video-clip played]

22             THE WITNESS:  So it's a helicopter video here over-flying the

23     school of Kula, and following the dirt road that goes towards Pilica to

24     show the distance.  So still following the road.  And then it will arrive

25     at the Branjevo Farm.

Page 23848

 1             And here is the Branjevo Farm.  Here I'm zooming to the area

 2     where the grave is.

 3             Here is -- here are the buildings.

 4             And this is now where the settlement has been built.  And here we

 5     are above the grave.

 6             Now it's from the ground.

 7             MR. MITCHELL:  Now, for the record, we're at 4 minutes.

 8             THE WITNESS:  So these are objects still -- still around on the

 9     surface.  This is the piece of body that has been pushed by the machine

10     that is on the photograph.

11             This is again another date.  It's a mixture of pictures taken

12     from various missions on this spot.

13             This one is filmed by Peter Nicholson.

14             MR. MITCHELL:

15        Q.   What's the building we can see --

16        A.   This is the garage, the tree, and in this direction the way the

17     prisoners were marched towards.  This is the admin buildings.  The

18     pigstry is behind the two.  The garage.  And the area where we will do

19     the shell casing collection.  And this is the execution field, the grave

20     being just after the trees to the left.

21        Q.   And that is at 6 minutes, 2 seconds.

22        A.   The back of the garage.  And the field.  The -- the yellow

23     markers spotting shell casings which were visible on the surface.

24        Q.   Where's this particular bit of footage being shot from?

25        A.   It is the shot on the area that -- that shows not exactly the

Page 23849

 1     size of the execution area because these shell casings have been also

 2     moved around by the heavy equipment that was used to collect the bodies

 3     on the surface, but also by some agricultural machinery that later on was

 4     probably used to -- to seed the field.  So the area where we found the

 5     shell casings is larger than the -- the actual area, but it's still a

 6     very large surface.

 7             This is the area leading towards the grave.

 8             MR. MITCHELL:  I think we can stop there.  My apologies.  If we

 9     can keep playing.  That was at 9 minutes, 11 seconds.

10        Q.   If you can tell us where this bit of footage is, Mr. Ruez.

11        A.   Yes.  This is a bridge under which the witness did hide after

12     having crawled away from the -- the execution site and where he did spend

13     the night.  He described that it was a bridge with a lot of trash

14     underneath and bits of vehicles also.  So the first thing we did show to

15     him before that was already photographs of the area, but when we came

16     back with him, indeed he -- he again confirmed this was the spot.  It's

17     under this bridge.

18        Q.   How far is this bridge from the farm?

19        A.   Not very far away, less than a kilometre.  He is also the witness

20     who the day after saw a truck loaded with -- with dead bodies that drove

21     along the -- the road coming from the direction of where Pilica is.

22        Q.   Can you tell us his witness code?

23        A.   Yes.  KDZ333.

24             MR. MITCHELL:  And can I tender that video, Mr. President.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

Page 23850

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P4306, Your Honours.

 2             MR. MITCHELL:

 3        Q.   Can we please look at page 222 in the hard copy of your book and

 4     232 in e-court.

 5             Mr. Ruez, if you can explain to us what the next site is that

 6     we're going to look at and how you first came to learn of this site.

 7        A.   We -- we learned from this site from only one source, which is

 8     the statement of Drazen Erdemovic, who said that once the execution at

 9     the Branjevo Farm was completed, security officer on the spot told them

10     that there were still some 500 prisoners to be executed nearby at the Dom

11     of Culture in Pilica.

12        Q.   Let's go to the next page, 223 in the hard copy, 233 in e-court.

13     And can you tell us the significance of the two buildings that are

14     pointed out in this image?

15        A.   Drazen Erdemovic, with the team of the 10th Sabotage Detachment

16     went with this security officer to have some drinks in a cafe that was at

17     the opposite side of the road, and on the other side of the road was the

18     location where the people were locked inside and where the other team

19     of -- of killers who came from Bratunac shot the people inside the --

20     this place.

21        Q.   And this is the town or village of Pilica --

22        A.   Yes --

23        Q.   -- that's in this picture?

24        A.   Yes.  This is the village of Pilica where we ended up finding

25     the -- both the cafe and the house of culture of Pilica.

Page 23851

 1        Q.   Can you orient us on the road that runs through the middle of

 2     town.  As it exits out the bottom of the photo, which direction is that?

 3        A.   At the bottom of the photo is the direction of Zvornik, and at

 4     the top it is the direction of Bijeljina.  The -- the border limit of the

 5     Drina Corps is just at the exit north of this village.

 6        Q.   Can we go to the next page, please, 224 in hard copy --

 7        A.   And on this -- on this picture also there is a bus just in front

 8     of the Dom of Culture, exactly in the position where the people were

 9     taken to go to this Dom of Culture from Bratunac.

10        Q.   We're looking at 224 now in hard copy, 234 in e-court.  What's

11     this building on this photo?

12        A.   So this is how at the time looked the front facade of the Dom of

13     Culture.  The first floor was the office of the mayor and at the ground

14     floor a little telephone communication centre.

15        Q.   Can we go to the next page, please, 225 in hard copy and 235 in

16     e-court.  What is the building in this photo?

17        A.   This is the cafe just in front of the Dom of Culture, the cafe

18     where Erdemovic and the few others of the 10th Sabotage Detachment had

19     their drinks.

20        Q.   In the very left bottom foreground of the picture, is that the

21     edge of the road that we can see?

22        A.   Absolutely, yes.  This is the asphalt road.

23        Q.   Can we go to the next page, please, 226 in hard copy, 236 in

24     e-court.  Can you tell us where this photo was taken from and what you

25     can see.

Page 23852

 1        A.   So on this one, this one is taken from the inside of the cafe.

 2     Through the window you can see the Dom of Culture.  The actual entrance

 3     and exit of the theatre behind this building where the people were locked

 4     into cannot be seen because there is a metal structure that hides the

 5     place.  So Erdemovic could not see precisely what was going on inside,

 6     but he could see that those prisoners who could run out were then shot

 7     in -- in the street.

 8        Q.   In between this cafe and the Dom of Culture that we can see, the

 9     main Zvornik-Bijeljina road is running between those two buildings?

10        A.   Yes.  Just behind the parking spot where the vehicles are seen is

11     the asphalt road.

12        Q.   Can we go to the next page, please, 227 in hard copy, 237 in

13     e-court.  What does this photo show, Mr. Ruez?

14        A.   This one shows the complete structure of this building, and where

15     the soldier is standing in front is a blue door, and that is the entrance

16     door of the -- of the Dom of Culture.

17        Q.   So when you say the complete structure of this building, this

18     is -- this whole building is the Dom of Culture?

19        A.   The entire building is the Dom of Culture.

20        Q.   Can we look at the next page, please, 228 in hard copy, 238 in

21     e-court.  What does this photo show?

22        A.   This one shows on the left the door that leads upstairs to the

23     area where the projectionist who shows films inside the Dom of Culture

24     has to go up to, and the door on the right is the entrance, the main

25     entrance of the Dom of Culture.  And this room, when we arrived, had a

Page 23853

 1     locker on it.  Some -- in fact, it was clear once inside that no one had

 2     been there before us in between the time of the events and the day we --

 3     we enter the room.

 4        Q.   Can we look at the next page, please, 229 in hard copy, 239 in

 5     e-court.  And is this the lock on the door that you just mentioned?

 6        A.   It is the locker on the door, and you can also see in between the

 7     doors that there is an old spider nest.  This place is locked since a

 8     while.

 9        Q.   Do you recall the date of when you first entered the Pilica Dom?

10        A.   Not precisely but it was probably at the end of summer 1996.

11        Q.   Let's go to the next page, 230 in hard copy, 240 in e-court.  Can

12     you describe where we're looking at now and where this photo was taken

13     from?

14        A.   So this is taken from upstairs from the whole of the cabin of the

15     projectionist.  This is the first view of the inside of the Dom of

16     Culture.

17        Q.   Next page, please, 231 in hard copy, 241 in e-court.  Can you

18     tell us who this person is in this photo and what they're doing.

19        A.   So this person is John Gerns, who was together with us on this

20     mission.  We now have a date, end of August 1996.  And I took this

21     picture, and John Gerns was a crime scene technician, and at this moment

22     he's collecting samples on the walls.

23        Q.   What kind of samples is he collecting?

24        A.   Possible blood traces to check if they are human or not, and also

25     traces of substance to check if there are explosive traces or not.

Page 23854

 1        Q.   Were these samples tested?

 2        A.   Same situation then for the first samples that we took at the

 3     Kravica warehouse.  At this moment the goal was to prepare a thorough

 4     forensic mission and only to secure the samples if ever something

 5     happened to the location before we would return there.  So these ones

 6     were just stored and not processed.  Maybe only -- maybe only one to

 7     check if it was indeed the human blood or not, but in this location it's

 8     not the same then in the Kravica warehouse.  There is no possibility this

 9     place would ever have been used as an animal slaughterhouse.  So we were

10     sure it was human.

11        Q.   Let's go to the next page, 232 in the hard copy, 242 in e-court.

12     What does this photo show?

13        A.   This a bloodstain on the wall that we took before the crime scene

14     technician could take his sample.

15        Q.   The next page, 233, 243 in e-court.  And this photo?

16        A.   Same situation.  A bloodstain on the wall before taking the

17     sample.

18        Q.   Next page, 234 in hard copy, 244 in e-court.  Now, what

19     particular part of the Dom of Culture are we looking at here, and what

20     are the marks on the wall?

21        A.   These are the few stairs at the back of this room where the stage

22     is and where most probably the -- the people jammed once the shooting

23     started, and this is an obvious, again, bloodstain on this part of the

24     wall.

25        Q.   And is it correct that a team of forensic experts went back to

Page 23855

 1     this site after your initial visit?

 2        A.   Yes, absolutely.

 3        Q.   And they made a report about their findings from this site?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Now, go to page 235 in hard copy, 245 in e-court.  Can you

 6     describe what we can see in these photos starting with the black marks

 7     that we can see across the bottom half of the photo.

 8        A.   So this is at the back of -- the wall at the back of the room,

 9     the very end of it, and the black traces are traces of grenades that were

10     thrown in and exploded.

11        Q.   And what are the marks on the right of the photo that we can see

12     up towards the top right-hand corner?

13        A.   There are also on this one sprays of blood splashed on the wall.

14        Q.   Can we look at the next page, please, 236 in hard copy and 246 in

15     e-court.  We're looking at an aerial image dated 17 July 1995.  Did you

16     put the yellow markings on this image, Mr. Ruez?

17        A.   Yes, I did.

18        Q.   Can you describe their significance to us.

19        A.   Yes.  The -- the truck was -- was marked on the original one.  I

20     added -- and the truck is parked just in front of the blue door, the main

21     entrance door, and the interest of the traces is that they lead also to

22     the rear door, knowing that any cleaning of the inside would necessitate

23     to take the bodies out, both from the front and also from the rear door.

24        Q.   Now, can you orient us on this?  We can see a road running on the

25     right-hand side of the image from top to bottom.

Page 23856

 1        A.   Mm-hmm.

 2        Q.   Which road is that?

 3        A.   This is the asphalt road leading -- going south at the bottom of

 4     the picture towards Zvornik and to the top towards the north, Bijeljina.

 5     And more or less where the numbering of the picture is, top right, is

 6     where the -- just underneath it's where the cafe is.

 7        Q.   So underneath the number 704.

 8        A.   Yes.  That's the location of the cafe.

 9        Q.   Can we look at the next page, please, 237 in hard copy and 247 in

10     e-court.  Can you describe what this picture is showing and then tell us

11     the significance of the red arrow.

12        A.   The bodies from -- of those who were shot inside the Dom, the

13     assumption at that time was that due to the fact that the witness who did

14     hide under the bridge saw a truck with dead bodies inside take this

15     direction indicated to us that the bodies were probably taken to the

16     Branjevo Farm, and the red arrow shows the direction, in fact the path

17     that would be taken by -- by the trucks who brought the bodies to the

18     Branjevo Farm, the farm being just behind the end of the arrows, just

19     behind the hill.

20        Q.   The starting point of the red arrows, is it the building

21     immediately to the right of that?  Is that the Dom of Culture?

22        A.   It is the Dom of Culture, yes.

23        Q.   I want to show you another video now - it's 65 ter 40235A - and

24     again have you describe what we can see in this video.

25                           [Video-clip played]

Page 23857

 1             THE WITNESS:  So this is the arrival at the Dom.  So here is the

 2     front facade.  The asphalt road pointing in the direction of Bijeljina.

 3     Here again we have the Dom.

 4             MR. MITCHELL:

 5        Q.   Do you recall what year this footage was taken?

 6        A.   Yes, yes.  Now we have a certainty of a date.  It's

 7     23rd August, 1996.

 8        Q.   What's that building we just saw?

 9        A.   I'm sorry.  It was the cafe.  It's a 360-degree turn.  So this is

10     entering the front facade, and here is, in fact -- was a door leading to

11     the inside of the Dom of Culture, but this door had been completely

12     sealed with concrete.

13        Q.   We're at 1 minute, 25, for the record.

14        A.   Here is the entrance for the smaller area that is the com centre,

15     telephone centre.  We didn't do this hole at the hop tight.  It was

16     there.  This is what could be seen from the -- from this little hole.

17             That's the back of the building.  So making a turn.

18             So this is from the -- the cabin of the projectionist, through

19     one of the two -- two holes.  So this is the location from where the --

20     the initial shooting started.

21             That's the staircase going down.  The floor had been cleaned, but

22     the cleaning lady was not very thorough, and on the sides there were

23     still shell casings.

24             Shell casings.  Shell casings.  Also shell casings.

25             So this is from the outside.

Page 23858

 1             The cafe just at the opposite.

 2             MR. MITCHELL:

 3        Q.   The IFOR troops who we just saw, were they anything to do with

 4     your visit?

 5        A.   Yes, absolutely.  They were our escort, this area being part of

 6     the Ivandi [phoen] north, but on the so-called Russian sector.  For this

 7     occasion it was a Russian unit.

 8             So that's at the -- at the outside.  Still rubber gloves,

 9     probably I can expect left over from those who went inside to clean -- to

10     clean the bodies out of -- out of the room.  A shell casing.

11             And then we broke the locker and could get inside.  So this is

12     inside.  It's Peter Nicholson who is filming.  The hole from the

13     projectionist.

14             So I don't describe all the traces.  They are obvious.

15        Q.   What are we looking at now?  This is at 7 minutes.

16        A.   Now it's the stage.

17        Q.   It's 7 minutes, 45 seconds.

18        A.   So we're also looking to see if there was some obvious things

19     underneath the stage.  There are some pieces of "licna karta," IDs.

20        Q.   That's at 8 minutes, 55.

21        A.   Shell casing.  Shell casing.  And a few of the IDs that were

22     found.  Only one had -- if I remember well, only one had a name, clear

23     name on it, with a photograph.  Yeah, this one.  And he was on the

24     missing list of the Red Cross as missing from Srebrenica.

25        Q.   It was at 9 minutes and 40 seconds.

Page 23859

 1             MR. MITCHELL:  I tender that video, Mr. President.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  That will be admitted.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P4307, Your Honours.

 4             MR. MITCHELL:

 5        Q.   Mr. Ruez, when was the last time you went to the Dom of Culture

 6     in Pilica?

 7        A.   Last time was, I think, in 2002.

 8        Q.   And had the site changed at all from what we saw in that footage?

 9        A.   Not at all.  In 2002 we could have returned with a team of

10     forensic experts.  Like the Kravica situation, everything was absolutely

11     still in place.  Only the -- the outside had changed significantly, but

12     the inside, not at all in 2002.

13        Q.   Let's move on to a different area.  We'll skip to page 239 in the

14     hard copy of your book, 249 in e-court.  Can you explain very briefly

15     what this map shows?

16        A.   So this map shows the location of all the mass graves that

17     existed in the area in -- once the exhumation -- the initial inhumation

18     process was finalised.  So that was on 17 July 1995, and this is the

19     situation at the time for the main graves.

20        Q.   Did your investigation indicate that something had happened with

21     those graves in the months after 17 July 1995?

22        A.   The fact is that at the end of the exhumation process conducted

23     by Bill Haglund in 1996, on the main -- the priority was put on the main

24     execution sites.  At the end of the year, only 500 -- about 500 bodies

25     had been collected, recovered, though our assumption according to the

Page 23860

 1     witness testimonies was that we should have found a much, much larger

 2     amount.  So there was even an article in "Newsweek" with the title

 3     "Genocide Without Corpses."  So the question was where the bodies had

 4     been taken, especially since the exhumation of the sites clearly

 5     indicated that the initial mass graves were much larger than the area

 6     where the bodies were found.  So there had been a very clear and obvious

 7     robbery process of all the bodies in all these primary burial sites.

 8        Q.   And how did you first learn of the secondary sites where these

 9     remains had been moved to?

10        A.   Uh-huh.  The first indication came from someone who indicated

11     suspect -- more than suspect spots at the south of the enclave in an area

12     totally remote that is named Zeleni Jadar where this person enabled us,

13     through his indications, to find four secondary mass graves, and

14     additional imagery enabled us to find, in fact, six mass graves at the

15     south of Srebrenica.  Those that we suspected came from the main burial

16     site initially located in Glogova.

17        Q.   After you located the six sites at Zeleni Jadar with imagery, who

18     then took the initiation and discovered other sites?

19        A.   After this discovery and also after the confirmation that despite

20     of what was initially thought from the aerial imagery that the site at

21     the dam had also been tampered with, the analysis of all these pictures

22     that existed, though the significance of them had to be pinpointed in

23     order to understand what could be on the picture, so the US government

24     provided us with several pictures that enables us then to go on the

25     ground and check these locations once after another and check if there

Page 23861

 1     was inside multiple bodies in order to start exhuming them.

 2        Q.   Let's look at a few of those images briefly.  Can we go to the

 3     next page, 240 in the hard copy and 250 in e-court.  Can you tell us

 4     which site this is we're looking at?

 5        A.   So this one is LZ-2, which is the first of the -- first execution

 6     site of Orahovac with one picture showing the situation dated 7 September

 7     where we already had the disturbance, but then on a following picture

 8     dated 27, one can clearly see that the disturbance doesn't look any

 9     longer the same than on 27.  So something had happened on this site

10     between the 7th and the 27th.

11        Q.   If we can go to the next page, 241 in the hard copy, 251 in

12     e-court.  If you can tell us which site this is.

13        A.   It's the -- the same Orahovac place but this is LZ-1 and same

14     situation.  The disturbance doesn't look any longer the same between the

15     7th and 27th September.

16        Q.   Next page, 242 in the hard copy, 252 in e-court.  And can you

17     explain again this image?

18        A.   Exactly the same situation but for the Petrovic dam where the

19     disturbance caused by the creation of the grave shows in a different way

20     between the 7th September and the 27th.

21        Q.   And are we -- here we're looking at the flat area in front of the

22     dam?

23        A.   Yes.  This is the plateau.

24        Q.   Can we go to the next page, please, 243 in the hard copy, 253 in

25     e-court.  Now we're looking at disturbed earth at Kozluk with another

Page 23862

 1     split image, the left dated 7 September 1995, the right dated 27

 2     September 1995.

 3        A.   Uh-huh.  It's exactly the same situation again but this time for

 4     the Kozluk site.  This is also the reason why on all these sites we could

 5     probably find so easily human remains, human bones scattered on the

 6     surface, since all this process of removing the bodies with heavy

 7     equipment, then they spill out certain number of items.  So this one is

 8     the disturbance of Kozluk.

 9        Q.   Can we go to the next page, please, 244 in the hard copy, 254 in

10     e-court.  This is a single image at the Branjevo Farm, dated 27 September

11     1995.  Now the heading that says "Newly excavated trench" and the

12     identification of a backhoe and a front loader, they were put there by

13     the provider; is that correct?

14        A.   Absolutely, yes.  All these marks and the blowups on the yard of

15     the farm, all this is labelled by the provider.

16        Q.   And what's significant about this particular image?

17        A.   We already knew the very precise location of the mass grave, and

18     on this one, one can very clearly see where the location is but now it is

19     open again, and inside the yard is also -- it's very fuzzy on the one we

20     have here, but one can see, indeed, a backhoe and also a front loader.

21        Q.   Can we go to next page, please, 245 in hard copy, 255 in e-court.

22     Can you tell us which particular site this exhumation is taking place at?

23        A.   Yes.  This one is at the Branjevo Farm, and this is a perfect

24     example of the end result we could have at the end of 1996 since the

25     large hole seen on the photograph is the size of the initial mass grave,

Page 23863

 1     but it's only on the spot where the three colleagues are standing that a

 2     pile of -- a stack of about 100 bodies was left.  It was the open thing

 3     that was left in this huge mass grave.

 4        Q.   Can we look at the next page, 246 in hard copy and 256 in

 5     e-court.  Is this the stack of bodies that you just referred to?

 6        A.   Yes.  This was the stack of bodies that was left at the

 7     Branjevo Farm.

 8        Q.   Can we look at the next page, 247 in hard copy, 257 in e-court.

 9        A.   This is one of the aerial photographs of Glogova, which is --

10     which comes in a series of -- that could show the entire evolution of

11     this very important site since this site is the grave for not only the

12     bodies coming from the Kravica warehouse but also the bodies of those who

13     were executed in Bratunac town and also of those who were killed along

14     the side of the road when they surrendered, and all of them were taken to

15     Glogova.  And this particular photograph dated 30 October shows in fact

16     the disturbance process when -- ongoing since a front loader is still

17     inside one of these mass graves because it's an area of a cluster of

18     several mass graves.

19        Q.   And that conclusion that we can see a front loader on the image,

20     that's -- that conclusion was made by the provider again?

21        A.   Yes.  The labelling "Front loader" is done by the provider.

22        Q.   The next page, please, 248 in the hard copy, 258 in e-court.  If

23     you can briefly describe this and the significance of the yellow arrow we

24     can see pointing to the south.

25        A.   In fact this one depicts only the -- the move of the bodies taken

Page 23864

 1     from Glogova and shipped to the opposite side of the UN safe area, at the

 2     south of it at Zeleni Jadar.

 3        Q.   And there's other witnesses who talk more about the connections

 4     between those two graves, or those two series of graves.

 5        A.   The connection is done by the results of forensics

 6     post-exhumation since a lot of the possibilities exist to then connect

 7     the primary sites to -- with the secondary sites, i.e., extremely obvious

 8     items, soil analysis, shell casing comparison, various methods that will

 9     be entered into detail by another person, Dean Manning.

10        Q.   Let's look at the next page, 249 in the hard copy, and 259 in

11     e-court.  If you can describe what we can see here on this image.

12        A.   This shows the area we named Zeleni Jadar.  It's totally south of

13     the former enclave, and this shows, in fact, the way these sites have

14     been spread along this small road, scattered in a clear intent that if

15     one is found, we would certainly not be able to find the other ones

16     because this is an extremely remote area, and many of these locations

17     are, in fact, at the edge of a previous confrontation line with a lot of

18     mine fields also in this -- in this area.

19        Q.   Can we go to the next page, please, 250 in the hard copy, and 260

20     in e-court.  Who is the person we can see in this photo, if you recall?

21        A.   Sure.  This is William Haglund, and we were doing what we call a

22     probe on one of these suspect sites in Zeleni Jadar and could confirm the

23     presence of human remains.  Here we see a man.

24        Q.   And this is the Zeleni Jadar 4 site; correct?

25        A.   Correct.  This is Zeleni Jadar 4.

Page 23865

 1        Q.   And can we go to the next page, please, 251 in the hard copy, 261

 2     in e-court.  We can see seven yellow and black circles in this map to the

 3     west of Zvornik.  Can you explain what these seven circles represent?

 4        A.   These ones are part of suspect sites that we -- we probed each of

 5     them in 2007, so this is a cluster along the stretch of road that was the

 6     former road going from Zvornik towards Tuzla.  It was then a dirt -- a

 7     dirt road, remote, out of the normal way to go out to Zvornik.  And all

 8     those were probed positive and were later exhumed.  The bodies of these

 9     ones are the ones coming from Orahovac.

10        Q.   And when you say you probed them in 2007, is that the right year

11     or is it --

12        A.   Oh, sorry.  1997.  1997.

13        Q.   And what are these seven locations known as?

14        A.   Yes.  It's the Hodzici Road, so HZ.  The code sign should be HZ.

15        Q.   Can we go to the next page, 252 in hard copy, and 262 in e-court.

16     Are these the same seven sites we were just talking about?

17        A.   Yes.  Yes.  Yes.  Again, it shows how -- how spread these --

18     these places are, the goal of being clearly to scatter all these remains

19     in order to make sure that even if one of these sites could be found, the

20     magnitude of the crime would not be fully understood since there would be

21     a lot of missing bodies.

22        Q.   Look at the next page, 253 in hard copy, 263 in e-court.  This

23     map shows four yellow and black circles just below the location Liplje.

24     Can you explain this?

25        A.   These ones are also in the area close to Zvornik.  We also probed

Page 23866

 1     these sites and exhumation.  It was in 1997 again, the probing, and the

 2     exhumation again enabled the experts to connect these sites with those of

 3     the -- the prisoners executed at the dam.

 4        Q.   Can we go to the next page, page 254 in hard copy and 264 in

 5     e-court.  Are these the four sites that you were just describing?

 6        A.   Yes, these are the sites.

 7        Q.   Is this area near Liplje, was that inhabited when you went there

 8     and did probes on these locations?

 9        A.   All the places where secondary graves are located are all -- were

10     at that time all totally inhabited, yes.

11        Q.   Can we go to the next page.  It's a map showing nine yellow

12     circles in the area of Cancari.

13        A.   The Cancari valley is a long -- is a long -- in the middle has a

14     long dirt road.  It's about 8 kilometres long, the valley.  And these

15     spots on this map pinpoint locations of -- a chain of secondary graves,

16     and these ones are the ones coming from the Branjevo -- Branjevo Farm.

17        Q.   Are they all from the Branjevo Farm or are some of them from

18     another location?

19        A.   These ones are only from the Branjevo Farm.  On the -- the

20     entrance of the valley there are three -- three more coming from Kozluk.

21        Q.   Can we go to the next page, 256.  And, Mr. Ruez, just further up

22     the page, on page 56, at line 9, where you said all the places where

23     secondary graves were located were at that time totally inhabited; is

24     that correct?  So people were living round about the locations?

25        A.   There was no one living around the locations.  The locations were

Page 23867

 1     all in areas where the houses were totally destroyed, not habited.

 2        Q.   So that's uninhabited; correct?

 3        A.   Uninhabited, yes.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  We're looking at page 256.  If you can describe what

 5     we're looking at in this image.

 6        A.   So this is a picture taken in 1998, and it shows the Cancari

 7     valley.  At the moment, in fact, the valley becomes a bit larger, but all

 8     the houses you can see on this, some of them have already been partially

 9     reconstructed, but in 1995 and early 1996, no one was living at all in

10     these places.  It would have been much too dangerous to live there before

11     the total end of the conflict.

12        Q.   We can see a road running from the bottom of the picture right up

13     through the middle.  Can you orient us on that?  Which direction if you

14     go out the bottom of the picture?  Where is that?

15        A.   At the bottom of the picture, this dirt road goes to the Drina

16     valley.  So once you are at the Drina valley, if you go south, you would

17     go towards Nova Kasaba; and if you go north, you go to Zvornik.

18        Q.   Let's go to the next page, 257, 267 in e-court.  And these are

19     the Cancari Road sites that you've been talking about?

20        A.   Yes.  So the -- the Drina valley being out of the pictures on the

21     right hand.  The first sites where, I mean, maybe three, maybe four, I

22     cannot be sure, are coming from the Kozluk area.  This is from one of

23     these that we went immediately to Kozluk after having found the labels

24     and the broken glass and all the others are the Branjevo farm of interest

25     of the picture, again, to show how spread these sites are along this --

Page 23868

 1     this valley.

 2        Q.   If we look at the next page -- or actually skip the next page and

 3     go to page 259 and 269 in e-court.  Can you describe what this is that's

 4     in this photo?

 5        A.   Mm-hmm.  So this is a helicopter view of the set-up of an

 6     exhumation of the secondary mass grave compared with the aerial imagery.

 7        Q.   And the next -- the next page, please, 260 in hard copy and 270

 8     in e-court.  And which site is it that we're looking at here?

 9        A.   This is Cancari 12, site number 12, and this is a photograph of

10     the first layer of a mass grave.  We -- we wished to have this first

11     layer, which is not necessarily even normal way the exhumation is

12     conducted, but in order to have a visual assessment of how -- how the

13     full surface of such a grave would look like.

14             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, I have about maybe 5 to 10 minutes

15     left.  I am not sure what time the next break was scheduled for.

16             JUDGE KWON:  I think we can continue to quarter to 6.00.

17             MR. MITCHELL:  Thank you.

18        Q.   Let's go to page 264 in the hard copy and 274 in e-court.  Can

19     you explain first what we're looking at here, and second, what date this

20     image was taken on?

21        A.   So this picture is -- is an extract of the video V550, the video

22     filmed by Zoran Petrovic.  The video is -- his video is dated 12 July.

23     And this is at the moment he enters Srebrenica town and where one can see

24     that the central mosque in the centre of Srebrenica town was the main --

25     two main religious buildings, one being a church, the other one being the

Page 23869

 1     mosque.

 2        Q.   So this is the mosque in the centre of Srebrenica town?

 3        A.   Yes.  As it was after the take-over of the Bosnian Serb Army, the

 4     day after.

 5        Q.   Let's look at the next page, 265 in hard copy, 275 in e-court.

 6     And first if you can tell us what date this photo was taken.

 7        A.   This photo was -- I took it in April 1996.  The date is on it.

 8     It was 16 or 18 April 1996.

 9        Q.   And what does it show?

10        A.   It shows the same mosque than the one on the previous photograph.

11        Q.   And how are you able to tell that that's the same mosque as the

12     one we saw on the previous photo?

13        A.   It's clearly obvious since it is exactly at the same location,

14     centre town, and the only items you could recognise on this one since it

15     has been totally blown up is one part of the roof and one piece of the

16     minaret.

17        Q.   If we can go to the next page, 266, page 276 in e-court.  And

18     again if you can tell us the date of this photo and what's significant

19     about it?

20        A.   I don't remember precisely the date but, it was at least one year

21     after since each time I would return I would retake a picture to see the

22     slow destruction of the monument, and this one -- on this one we can see

23     that only one large piece of concrete is still there.

24        Q.   Can we go to the next page.  This is 267 in the hard copy and 277

25     in e-court.  Is this just a close-up of the previous image that we were

Page 23870

 1     looking at?

 2        A.   It's only a close-up, yes.

 3        Q.   Can we look at the next page, please, 269 -- my apologies, 268 in

 4     the hard copy, and 278 in e-court.  Do you recall when --

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm wondering whether this is

 6     something that the witness should be able to answer and know.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  We'll hear from the witness, Mr. Karadzic.

 8             What is the question, Mr. Mitchell?

 9             MR. MITCHELL:

10        Q.   My first question is:  Do you recall what date this particular

11     image was taken?

12        A.   Not the date, but the year was 1998.

13        Q.   And my second question is:  What is the yellow arrow pointing to?

14        A.   The yellow arrow that I added pinpoints the location where before

15     was the mosque, the central mosque of Srebrenica.  This is at this stage

16     being transformed into a parking lot.

17        Q.   Next page, please, 269 in the hard copy, 279 in e-court.

18        A.   This is another mosque of Srebrenica that is on the way going or

19     returning to Zeleni Jadar.

20        Q.   And what date was this photo taken?

21        A.   At some point in 1997.

22        Q.   Well, this is a separate mosque from the one in the centre of

23     town; is that right?

24        A.   Yes, yes.  It's one of -- in total there were three mosques, but

25     I didn't specifically photograph all of them.  This one happened to be on

Page 23871

 1     the road to Zeleni Jadar.  This is why we could also see what was

 2     happening with -- with that one.  But I only take -- took the pictures in

 3     1997 of this one.

 4        Q.   Now, do you recall if this mosque can be seen on any footage from

 5     July 1995?

 6        A.   No.  No.  We don't have footage of it before -- these photographs

 7     of 1997 where it is obviously destroyed, not by combat.

 8        Q.   And the next two pages, we don't need to bring them up, but

 9     pages 270 and 271, are they just photographs of this same mosque from

10     different angles?

11        A.   Yes.

12             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, I'd like to move to tender

13     Mr. Ruez's book now.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We haven't admitted it yet.  Yes.

15             MR. MITCHELL:  No.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that will be admitted.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P4308, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE KWON:  And does that conclude your examination-in-chief,

19     Mr. Mitchell?

20             MR. MITCHELL:  It does.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Then we are going to hear Mr. Haglund's evidence.

22             MR. MITCHELL:  Yes, that's correct.

23                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

24             JUDGE KWON:  He's a live witness, Mr. Jean-Rene Ruez, so you are

25     not tendering any associate exhibits.

Page 23872

 1             MR. MITCHELL:  That's correct.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Well, then, Mr. Ruez, before we hear your

 3     cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic, we'll -- you will be interposed, as I

 4     indicated to you.  Probably your cross-examination will start sometime

 5     tomorrow.

 6             We'll adjourn till quarter past, but before that I'm going to

 7     issue a brief oral ruling.

 8             This is with respect to Prosecution's response to motion to

 9     exclude Sarajevo evidence filed on 23rd of January, 2012.

10             The Chamber is of the view that Prosecution's request for an

11     extension of time to respond to the accused's motion to exclude Sarajevo

12     evidence should be granted.  Accordingly, the Prosecution should file its

13     response by no later than three working days after it has received the

14     Rule -- Rule 70 provider's final position.  As a result, the Chamber

15     shall defer its consideration of the accused's motion until it receives

16     the Prosecution's response.

17             Yes.  We will resume at quarter past 6.00.

18                           [The witness stands down]

19                           --- Recess taken at 5.46 p.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 6.18 p.m.

21                           [The witness entered court]

22             JUDGE KWON:  Could the witness take the solemn declaration,

23     please.

24             THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

25     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 23873

 1                           WITNESS:  WILLIAM HAGLUND

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Please make yourself comfortable.

 3             Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

 4             MR. MITCHELL:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5                           Examination by Mr. Mitchell:

 6        Q.   Good evening, Doctor.  Can you please state your full name and

 7     spell your surname.

 8        A.   Yes.  William D. Haglund, H-a-g-l-u-n-d.

 9        Q.   What is your profession?

10        A.   I'm a forensic anthropologist.

11        Q.   Can I please have 65 ter 11142 in e-court.  Doctor, is this a

12     copy of your CV that you can see on the screen in front of you?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   We can see down the bottom of the first page that you were the

15     senior forensic advisor to the Office of the Prosecutor in 1996; is that

16     correct?

17        A.   That's correct.

18        Q.   What did that role entail?

19        A.   The role entailed that I crafted the overall policy for the

20     Tribunal as far as doing the forensic exhumations and getting the

21     material that we needed to do the work, bring in anthropologists,

22     archaeologists, pathologists, supportive people like autopsy staff,

23     evidence people, and to do assessments of various graves that the

24     Tribunal was interested in having exhumed.

25             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, can I tender that CV.

Page 23874

 1             JUDGE KWON:  That will be admitted.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P4309, Your Honours.

 3             MR. MITCHELL:

 4        Q.   Doctor, you oversaw the exhumation and examination of remains

 5     from sites of Cerska, Lazete 2 and Pilica; is that correct?

 6        A.   That's correct, yes.

 7        Q.   And you wrote a report on each of those sites?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And you testified as an expert witness about those reports in the

10     Krstic trial, the Popovic trial, and the Tolimir trial.

11        A.   That's correct.

12        Q.   Now, you've also testified at the ICTR; is that correct?

13        A.   That's correct.

14        Q.   In the Kayishema trial and the Rutaganda case.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Now, your evidence was relied on by the Trial Chamber in the

17     Kayishema case but it was not relied on by the Chamber in the Rutaganda

18     case due to some criticisms of our scientific method.  Can you briefly

19     explain to the Chamber that those criticisms were?

20        A.   Well, I think the perspective of the individual that did the

21     criticising came from a Canadian and American perspective and they had

22     not worked in other countries very much.  That's basically, I think, the

23     problem.

24        Q.   Can --

25        A.   But the other thing is that I didn't think that the remains were

Page 23875

 1     really connected to the Amgar garage, because we went through the garage

 2     and the garage grounds and we could find no bodies there.  They were

 3     outside the range of the -- of the actual garage itself and its -- its

 4     surrounding fenced-in area.

 5        Q.   And just for the record, I can direct Your Honours to paragraphs

 6     256 and 257 of the Rutaganda trial judgement, which is dated

 7     6 December 1999.

 8             Now, moving back to your work at the ICTY, do you recall

 9     testing -- testifying about your Cerska, Pilica and Lazete 2 reports --

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   -- in the Krstic trial?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And that was on the 29th of May, 2000?

14        A.   Mm-hmm.

15        Q.   Now, have you had an opportunity to review that testimony?

16        A.   Yes.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I?  May I intervene?  I would

18     like to say something on behalf of our interpreters.  I feel that they're

19     struggling, because no breaks are made between questions and answers.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Karadzic.  Now you understand you

21     need to put a pause when you're cross-examining the witnesses from the

22     region.

23             Yes, Doctor, please put a pause between question and answer.

24     Thank you.  Let us carry on.

25             MR. MITCHELL:

Page 23876

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Doctor, can you confirm that the transcript that you

 2     reviewed accurately reflects your evidence in the Krstic case?

 3        A.   That's correct.

 4        Q.   And if you were asked the same questions on the same topics

 5     today, would your answers be the same?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             MR. MITCHELL:  I'd like to tender the Krstic testimony now,

 8     65 ter 3225.  And there are a number of associated exhibits listed in our

 9     notification.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Any objections, Mr. Robinson?

11             MR. ROBINSON:  No, Mr. President.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Shall we give the number for the Krstic

13     transcript.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour, that's Exhibit P4310.

15             JUDGE KWON:  And all the other associate exhibits will be

16     admitted -- and be given numbers in due course.

17             MR. MITCHELL:  Thank you.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

19             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, at this time I'd also like to

20     tender Dr. Haglund's Cerska report, which has 65 ter numbers 2441 through

21     to 2445.  It's a five-volume report.  I'd also like to tender

22     Dr. Haglund's Lazete 2 report which has 65 ter numbers 2446 through to

23     2450.  That's another five-volume report.  And Dr. Haglund's Pilica

24     report, which is 65 ter 2452 to 2455.  That's a four-volume report.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Doctor.

Page 23877

 1             THE WITNESS:  I must say that when I did read the Krstic

 2     testimony that there were -- there were some spelling problems, and I

 3     think one year was bad.  So there are some problems with it.

 4             MR. MITCHELL:

 5        Q.   Do you recall the year that was incorrect in that testimony?

 6        A.   Yeah.  They said the exhumations were done in 1995 rather than

 7     1996.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Any objections, Mr. Robinson?

10             MR. ROBINSON:  No, Mr. President.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  They will all be admitted.

12             MR. MITCHELL:

13        Q.   I'd now like to read a summary of Dr. Haglund's testimony from

14     the Krstic case.

15             In 1996, Dr. Haglund oversaw the exhumation and examination of

16     human remains from Srebrenica-related mass graves at Cerska, Lazete 2,

17     and Pilica, which is also known as the Branjevo Military Farm.

18             The first site, at Cerska, was a primary undisturbed mass grave

19     located on an embankment by the side of a dirt road.  It contained the

20     bodies of 150 males, 149 of whom died of gunshot wounds.  Forty-eight

21     ligatures were recovered from the grave, 24 of which were still in place.

22     The individuals with ligatures were randomly disbursed throughout the

23     grave.  Based on his examination of the site, including the presence of

24     cartridges along the opposite side of the road to the grave, Dr. Haglund

25     concluded that the victims were lined up along the side of the road and

Page 23878

 1     shot and then either fell or were rolled down the embankment.  Dirt was

 2     then taken from the opposite side of the road and used to cover up the

 3     bodies.

 4             The second site, known as Lazete 2, was located in a field behind

 5     a raised railway track underpass.  The field was accessed by a small,

 6     rural road which passed through the railway underpass.  Dr. Haglund

 7     located two deposits of bodies at this site which were designated as

 8     Lazete 2A and Lazete 2B.  Due to the unseasonably rainy weather, he was

 9     unable to determine whether these two deposits were located in two

10     separate pits or in one large trench.  Lazete 2A was an undisturbed

11     primary grave which contained 112 relatively complete male bodies, plus

12     one set of remains on the surface.  Lazete 2B was a disturbed primary

13     grave which contained a minimum number of 52 individuals.  This gave a

14     minimum number of 165 individuals for the site of whom 158 died of

15     gunshot wounds.  A total of 104 blindfolds were also recovered from these

16     remains.

17             The third site, known as Pilica, or the Branjevo Military Farm,

18     was a very large grave measuring 28 metres long, 5 metres wide, and

19     3 metres deep.  Only 14 per cent of the grave was occupied by human

20     remains which amounted to a minimum number of 132 individuals.

21     Seventy-seven of these individuals had their hands bound behind their

22     backs, including one individual who had an artificial leg.

23             Dr. Haglund also explained the procedure once the exhumed remains

24     reached the morgue.  There, the remains were photographed and passed

25     through a fluoroscope to identify any projectiles.  The pathologist would

Page 23879

 1     then conduct an autopsy during which clothing was removed as well as

 2     evidence to be processed by the evidence technicians and photographers.

 3     Forensic anthropologists would also assist in the reconstruction of

 4     damaged bones and the determination of sex, age, and the minimum number

 5     of individuals.

 6             Lastly, Dr. Haglund testified about the findings of an expert

 7     panel that was convened by the Office of the Prosecutor to look into

 8     criticisms of his work and that of the chief forensic pathologist during

 9     the 1996 season.  The expert panel found that the criticisms of

10     Dr. Haglund's work did not jeopardise its scientific validity.  However,

11     the panel found that the chief pathologist had acted inappropriately by

12     changing the cause of death in some autopsy reports without consulting

13     the pathologist who had conducted the autopsy.  Dr. Haglund recalled that

14     the panel considered that the Office of the Prosecutor had handled this

15     situation appropriately by taking all of the autopsy reports back to the

16     original pathologist for review and verification of the conclusions.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Please slow down.

18             MR. MITCHELL:

19        Q.   Dr. Haglund, I have some additional questions on this last topic

20     which I just talked about.

21             MR. MITCHELL:  If I can have 65 ter 23521 in e-court.

22     Mr. President, we made an application to add this to our 65 ter list in

23     our notification.

24             MR. ROBINSON:  We don't object to that, Mr. President.

25             MR. MITCHELL:

Page 23880

 1        Q.   Doctor, is this the --

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  French interpretation has been just

 3     completed.  Please carry on.

 4             MR. MITCHELL:  My apologies.

 5        Q.   Doctor, is this the report of the expert panel that you discussed

 6     in your Krstic testimony?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Can I go to page 7 in e-court in both the English and the B/C/S.

 9     Doctor, I want to read to you the conclusion which this panel made about

10     your work and then get your comment on it, if -- if any.  It's the first

11     paragraph under the heading that says "Findings":

12              "The responses of the witnesses did not indicate any actual

13     wrongdoing on the part of Dr. Haglund nor anything regarding the

14     exhumations that jeopardised their scientific validity.  The pathologists

15     who were working in the morgue made no complaints about the exhumation of

16     the bodies or the conduct of the anthropologists who were working in the

17     morgue or at the grave sites.

18             Then the second last sentence:

19             "There was very little real evidence the pace of the exhumations

20     adversely affected the overall scientific quality.  Along with the

21     pathologists, the most experienced archeologist stated the recovery of

22     bodies had been done adequately under difficult circumstances."

23             Doctor, do you have any disagreement with those conclusions?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   I want to move now to a few questions regarding Dr. Kirschner.

Page 23881

 1     If you can just briefly tell us who Dr. Kirschner was?

 2        A.   Dr. Kirschner at that time was the head of the -- of the forensic

 3     part of the Physicians for Human Rights.  He was a well-known pathologist

 4     out of Chicago.

 5        Q.   And what is his role in Bosnia in 1996?

 6        A.   Well, he should have been in -- in the country more than he was.

 7     That was the number one problem.  But we had 33 pathologists from various

 8     countries, and some of them I already knew, and they would take over

 9     his -- his place when he wasn't there as far as seeing that things were

10     done right in the autopsy area in that -- where we took the bodies.

11        Q.   So he was the chief forensic pathologist?

12        A.   That's correct.

13        Q.   Can I move to page 10 now of this report in both English and

14     B/C/S.  And we can see that this is the opinion and comments by

15     Dr. Vincent DiMaio.  Can you tell the Court who Dr. Vincent DiMaio is?

16        A.   Yes.  He is a very well-known pathologist from Texas, Dallas,

17     Texas, and I think he was head of this committee.

18        Q.   We can see in the very stop paragraph on this page that

19     Dr. Kirschner's conduct was considered to be unacceptable.  You're aware

20     of that; correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And if I can direct you now to the third paragraph on that page

23     which states:

24              "While Dr. Kirschner's actions had the potential to invalidate

25     or at least taint the autopsy reports, the Tribunal prevented this by

Page 23882

 1     submitting the reports back to the original physicians for their

 2     certification of cause and manner of death.  Therefore, the panel feels

 3     no permanent injury to the validity of the reports was effected by the

 4     actions of Dr. Kirschner."

 5             Now, are you aware of these steps that were taken by the Office

 6     of the Prosecutor?

 7        A.   Yes.  Basically all -- what many -- what happened was there was a

 8     sort -- sort of irregular how the pathologist would sign the final cause

 9     of death.  Some people would give the number of bullets and some people

10     would just say multiple gunshot wounds, and I think that Dr. Kirschner

11     was trying to get it more in that multiple gunshot wound thing and so

12     that's how he changed some of those things.  That's ...

13        Q.   And do you recall who on behalf of the Office of the Prosecutor

14     was involved in taking the reports back to the original physicians to

15     certify the cause and manner of death?

16        A.   Yes.  I think that was -- Mr. McCloskey did that.

17        Q.   That's Peter McCloskey?

18        A.   Yes.  Peter McCloskey, yes.

19        Q.   Could I go to page --

20             JUDGE KWON:  Could you wait.

21             Yes.

22             MR. MITCHELL:  Thank you.

23        Q.   Can I go to page 8 now in both English and B/C/S.  And this is

24     the last questions I want to ask you on this topic.  I want to read you

25     the first recommendation of the panel and then I'll see if you have any

Page 23883

 1     comment on it:

 2             "The evidence of war crimes is overwhelming at each site.  A few

 3     problems of administration or temporary lapses from a scientific ideal

 4     could not jeopardise the overall quality of the evidence and its

 5     interpretation at autopsy.  Any prosecution of war crimes in Yugoslavia

 6     will be on firm scientific grounds.  There are literally hundreds of war

 7     crime remains that were removed and interpreted by very scientifically

 8     sound methods."

 9             Doctor, could you have any comment on that recommendation?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   Do you agree with that?

12        A.   I agree with that, yes.

13        Q.   Let's move now to your --

14             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Mitchell, instead of responding to answer the

15     question in a, so to speak, partial manner, could I ask the doctor what

16     happened with respect to the issue that you just dealt with, in just --

17     in a comprehensive manner so that the Bench can understand what -- what

18     this is about.

19             MR. MITCHELL:  Certainly.  The report itself goes into a lot of

20     detail, Mr. President.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

22             MR. MITCHELL:  But, of course, Dr. Haglund's available to

23     explain.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

25             Doctor.

Page 23884

 1             THE WITNESS:  Well, the question is how things were rectified as

 2     far as Dr. Kirschner was concerned?

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 4             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  And how the commission was formed and what --

 6             THE WITNESS:  The commission was formed by the Tribunal, and they

 7     were both anthropologists and pathologists there.  They were surprised

 8     when they talked to me that there weren't more complaints when you have

 9     people from all over the world and they do things different, but of --

10     but it was the changing of what doctors had written on their report, on

11     this numbering things of the number of gunshot wounds, et cetera, and

12     that was, I think, that was the problem that Dr. Kirschner had with this

13     but not asking these people.  People would come in for two weeks and go

14     away.  They were -- they were donating their time, and so they may be two

15     weeks -- they could get -- they're good pathologists, and they had to get

16     back to work.  They couldn't stay here for all the time, whereas in 1995,

17     they started paying people money.  These people were volunteering.  We

18     paid their way, paid for their food, paid for place to stay, but they

19     were donating their time.  They didn't get paid like everybody did after

20     1995.  They volunteered.  So -- and I --

21             JUDGE KWON:  Could you give us some examples how the numbers were

22     changed?

23             THE WITNESS:  Okay.  Let's say a person had been shot 15 times,

24     and then somebody else was shot 2 times, and somebody else was shot 4

25     times and 5 times.  So when you're trying to put that in a -- trying to

Page 23885

 1     summarise things, it's better to say single gunshot wound or multiple

 2     gunshot -- gunshot wounds, and that was what Dr. Kirschner was trying to

 3     get around.

 4             JUDGE BAIRD:  [Microphone not activated] Thank you, Doctor.  If a

 5     person received two gunshot wounds, could that be classified as multiple?

 6             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

 7             JUDGE BAIRD:  Yes?

 8             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please carry on.

10             MR. MITCHELL:

11        Q.   To round this off, Doctor, you've talked about -- that was the

12     issue with Dr. Kirschner?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   There were also some allegations about you?

15        A.   Oh, yes.

16        Q.   Perhaps you'd briefly expand on that?

17        A.   There were three or four people, I think, that had.  I think the

18     biggest concern that some people had that they thought that there was so

19     many -- maybe you could -- should only take out two bodies a day, or

20     three bodies a day or -- and they're used to working with skeletal

21     remains, and yes, when you're dealing with skeletal remains it's going to

22     take a while because you have to deal with 206 bones and you have to

23     clean all off and move them, but when you have bodies in the conditions

24     we had, they were most the part complete remains and they -- they were

25     all -- in a lot of times they were all connected together.  It was just

Page 23886

 1     to get them out from the pile of bodies that they were integrated with

 2     and covered partially with another body, et cetera, and -- and it is --

 3     and it also depends upon how the bodies are scattered.  If -- like in the

 4     Cerska grave, when we had 30 metres by 6 metres, and you had 150 people,

 5     sometimes they rolled upon each other, but you had enough room to get --

 6     there's enough room to get several -- two -- a two-person team to go in

 7     and start working on exposing those remains where you could move them.

 8     If you're in a very small area then you can't do that.  So those were

 9     problematic things we just run into doing graves all the time.

10             And if you have bodies that are fleshed and total and they're at

11     the bottom of the grave when you get there, you could take out 20 a day

12     or 40 a day.  The -- the problem with that is -- is the mapping, because

13     we map where the head is, where the shoulders were, where the elbows,

14     where the hands were, where the knees were, where the hips were, where

15     the feet were.  But if you have somebody doing a total station, and

16     electronically doing that, if you have a good person running that, in

17     three minutes they have it done, and then basically what you have to do

18     is get the body so they can lift it, put it in a bag, number it and take

19     it out of the grave.

20        Q.   And so the criticisms of you were primarily related to just the

21     speed at which the exhumations had been done.

22        A.   Yeah.  I think three or four people thought that was bad, so --

23     but they were used to working in -- mostly with skeletal remains and --

24     and it did take a long time, so ...

25        Q.   Let's move to --

Page 23887

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  I think now you can proceed.

 2             MR. MITCHELL:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 3        Q.   Doctor, we're going to move now to look at your findings for the

 4     Cerska site.  If I can have Exhibit P00209 in e-court.  Doctor, this is a

 5     photo of the Cerska site that you were shown in the Krstic case.  And

 6     what I'd like to ask you to do is if you could briefly explain to the

 7     Court what your conclusions are about what happened at this site, and if

 8     you want to mark the image, that may be helpful as well.

 9        A.   Well, you can't see a whole lot of the image.  It's really dark

10     on one side.  I hope there's another slide that shows that side, because

11     this is -- but basically it was a winding road going up the

12     Cerska Valley, a gravel road.  The -- the hillside had been cut when they

13     made the road originally, and we found this area where there was new

14     growth coming up.  It had just probably grown a year and it was on like

15     the others, and we found that that actually was a grave.  It was a

16     30-metre long grave and 6 metres down an incline.  There were groups of

17     shell casings that come from automatic rifles when they're spit out and

18     they'll go into piles if person stands in the same -- same place on the

19     opposite side of the road next to where the road had been cut and -- and

20     the victims were lined up along the far side of the grave.  It would be

21     on the -- the -- where you see the vegetation, lined up there, and then

22     they were shot in a sort of a spray pattern.  People were -- the killers

23     were -- with automatic weapon, they were just shooting around and so they

24     could just sort of spray.  That's what the pathologists call it, that

25     pattern.

Page 23888

 1             Then at some point the bodies either fell or were rolled over the

 2     side of the embankment, and then they had a machine, and they took more

 3     gravel -- gravelly soil off from the side of the embankment that had been

 4     cut when they made the road and then they had covered up the bodies in a

 5     sort of a superficial way, and that was -- the soil was made of small

 6     pebbles, and it wasn't very much piled on top of the bodies, so the

 7     bodies, when we got there, they -- a lot of them were partially

 8     skeletalised.  They heated up in the sun, and it was -- and the -- with

 9     the rocks in there also made it like that, and so this grave had a lot of

10     skeletal exposure.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Doctor, I want to turn your attention now to the

12     Lazete 2 site.  If we can have 65 ter 2458 in e-court.  We're going to

13     see a diagram of your exhumations at the Lazete 2 site.  And if I can ask

14     you to mark some things on this diagram.

15        A.   Up here by the grave.  It's hard to see.

16        Q.   If you could explain or talk us through your exhumation of this

17     site, and if you need to mark anything, please do so.

18        A.   Well, there's a road down here, and where the railroad comes

19     through there's a little road that goes along here.  It goes under that

20     railroad.

21             This is an area that's coming down from hills, and this is a

22     drainage area.  This whole area is a drainage area.  In fact, there had

23     been a lot of movement of big machinery over this area, so it was really

24     all mud because we got into the rainy season.

25             Going up this area here is where the actual grave was.  So we

Page 23889

 1     started doing trenches across this way, this way, and then finally we

 2     found -- we ran into -- we did that at equidistant, and then we found

 3     where the graves, the remains were.  They were all -- the depth was about

 4     2.5 to 3 metres.

 5             This is Lazete A, and this is Lazete B.  This A had not been

 6     disturbed.  People come back to dig a grave, but they weren't the ones

 7     who put the bodies in the grave, and they just started digging in this

 8     one area here and did their business, which wasn't very good, and I hope

 9     that we get to see some photograph here.

10             There was, I believe, a hundred and -- there was 132 in that one

11     grave.

12        Q.   Doctor, if --

13        A.   There was a hundred -- yes, okay.

14        Q.   Can you just tell us what you're looking at at the moment?

15        A.   Well, when I find it, I'll let you know.  The A, B -- the A grave

16     was an undisturbed grave.  The B grave was a disturbed grave where bodies

17     had been removed and taken somewhere else.

18        Q.   Can you tell us what is that binder -- I'm sorry.  One second.

19     What is that binder that you've got in front of you?

20        A.   It has from the reports, just the first volume of the reports.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22        A.   This grave A had 112 individuals, and grave B had a residual,

23     sometimes not very many complete bodies of 52 individuals in that grave.

24     And then there were 98 separately documented ones from the B grave that

25     were just pieces.  There would be bones, fractured bones, maybe an arm,

Page 23890

 1     maybe a leg and -- but minimal number there was 52 individuals.  So all

 2     told, we had 164 individuals from both graves and one -- when we'd done

 3     the assessment, we found one surface remains, and we had just put it

 4     shallowly and buried it there, and so there were 165 remains that we took

 5     from that site.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Where can we find in your report of that

 7     explanation?

 8             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Could you tell us the page numbers.

10             THE WITNESS:  The -- actually, just the numbers on that are from

11     page -- it's -- it's part of the introduction.  It's executive summary.

12     It's ix, 9.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Just for the record, the diagram we are

14     looking at, we can find it at page 20 of his report.

15             THE WITNESS:  Yes, the diagram, the diagram.  Yes, it's

16     different, yes.

17             MR. MITCHELL:

18        Q.   Doctor, if I can just ask you to -- the road that you marked on

19     there, can you put an A next to that, the letter A.

20        A.   This road?

21        Q.   Yes.

22        A.   [Marks]

23        Q.   And the main road to the right of the picture, put a B next to

24     that.

25        A.   Yes.  And there's also another grave down here also, but it was

Page 23891

 1     flooded.  We didn't want to take this one.  This was the less flooded

 2     that we had.

 3        Q.   And if you can put a letter C next to the arrow on the very

 4     left-hand side that you described as the drainage area.

 5        A.   Yeah.

 6        Q.   And the robbing area you marked with a small X; is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 8        Q.   Can you please initial this and put today's date on it, which is

 9     the 30th of January.

10        A.   [Marks]

11             MR. MITCHELL:  Can I tender that, please, Mr. President.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that will be admitted.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P4339, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE KWON:  I think that's it for today, given the time.

15             MR. MITCHELL:  Yes.  Thank you.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Doctor, we'll adjourn for today and resume tomorrow

17     at 9.00.

18             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

19             JUDGE KWON:  The hearing is now adjourned.

20                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.,

21                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 31st day

22                           of January, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.