Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 23892

 1                           Tuesday, 31 January 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.

 7             Yes, Mr. Tieger.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I simply wanted to raise

 9     one scheduling matter and bring it to the Court's attention.  This is a

10     matter that has been discussed with Mr. Robinson and to which the Defence

11     has no objection.

12             As the Court will recall, the two witnesses scheduled to follow

13     Mr. Ruez were Witness Todorovic and KDZ333.  In order to ensure the

14     completion of KDZ333's testimony this week, we have inverted the order.

15     So it will now be following the completion of Mr. Ruez's testimony,

16     KDZ333 and then Witness Todorovic, if the Court has no objection.  As I

17     say, there is no objection from the Defence.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

19             Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

20             MR. MITCHELL:  Thank you, Mr. President.

21                           WITNESS:  WILLIAM HAGLUND [Resumed]

22                           Examination by Mr. Mitchell:  [Continued]

23        Q.   Good morning, Doctor.

24        A.   Good morning.

25        Q.   I want to move now to look at your final site, the Pilica site.

Page 23893

 1     If we can have 65 ter 2452 in e-court and go to page 20.  Doctor, that's

 2     page 8 in the hard copy.

 3             Can you describe what this site was like when you first went

 4     there.

 5        A.   There was just some new vegetation growing over the depression,

 6     sort of a depressed area, with the vegetation being totally different

 7     from the surrounding vegetation, but it was an area that had been dug

 8     previously if you go with some ...

 9        Q.   And what were the first steps that you took to investigate this

10     site?

11        A.   Well, first of all we did a good surface search looking for

12     possible remains, and we did find some, and then we were measuring the

13     grave here, and then we began by doing transverse paths across that,

14     digging down to see if there were remains were there, and we didn't find

15     any until we got to the end, the far end.  This would probably be dug by

16     a big machine, and it ramped down in an incline and then got to the end.

17     That was the end where we found the assemblage remains.

18        Q.   Can we go to page 42 in e-court now.  It's page 30 in the hard

19     copy of the report.  Can we zoom in on the bottom photo.

20             And, Doctor, if you can give us a sense of the size of the grave

21     at this site.

22        A.   At that -- that point it was about -- it was 3 metres deep and

23     you can see the edge of the grave is much higher than the individual

24     standing there, so that was when the grave was pretty much emptied.

25        Q.   And which part of the grave was the assemblage of bodies located

Page 23894

 1     in?

 2        A.   The far end.  That -- when we looked at the original picture.

 3     We're looking at the end right now just -- with the previous photograph

 4     we had people measuring, and it was the furthest away from the roads that

 5     came -- the field roads that came from the farm itself.

 6        Q.   Can you now just briefly summarise your findings for this

 7     particular location.

 8        A.   Yes.  We had 132 minimum count of -- 53 of the individuals we

 9     found were complete, 23 were nearly complete, and then the rest were body

10     parts.  They could be torsos, they could be legs, they could be

11     individual bones, or they could be fragments of bones.

12        Q.   And that -- the number of 132 minimum number of individuals, is

13     that something that was arrived at at the site or later at the morgue?

14        A.   It was at -- it was at the morgue.

15        Q.   Thank you, Doctor.  I have no further questions.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Mitchell.

17             Doctor, your evidence in the previous case was admitted here in

18     lieu of your examination-in-chief in addition to some supplemental

19     questions by Mr. Mitchell, and you'll be cross-examined by Mr. Karadzic.

20             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Excellencies.

22     Good morning to everyone.

23                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

24        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Dr. Haglund.  I should like to ask

25     you for a precise definition of your professional position.  What are you

Page 23895

 1     by occupation?

 2        A.   Well, I'm a forensic anthropologist.  It depends upon where I'm

 3     working.  I was an investigator with the medical examiner's office, so I

 4     did forensic death investigations as well as anthropology.

 5        Q.   Yes.  That is how you replied, that you are a forensic

 6     anthropologist and that you graduated in Washington.  You said that in

 7     the Krstic case on page 3724.  However, on page 9101 in the Tolimir case,

 8     you said that you were a forensic anthropologist and death investigator.

 9             Could you please explain to us more clearly what a death

10     investigator is and how one acquires such a diploma, such a certificate.

11        A.   This wasn't a diploma.  This was -- I -- I actually learned on

12     the job when I worked 15 years with the medical examiner's office.  And

13     the -- what that involves is going to scenes, determining any mal-doings

14     there.  Oftentimes, we'd be working with the police.  Especially on

15     homicides we wouldn't -- the police would do that.  But oftentimes we

16     would go to a person that -- the place where a person had died of a

17     natural death and we would just make sure that there was nothing that was

18     out of place, that of -- for instance, in a suicide we would be looking

19     for notes, we would be doing that, and collecting the medications,

20     et cetera.  We would try to get the -- the amount of time the person had

21     been dead and -- and basically just look -- look through the house and

22     especially the area where the deceased was before we removed the body.

23     And if we had a problem where it was a homicide, then the pathologist

24     would come and take the case from there, and we would stand by and watch.

25        Q.   Thank you, Doctor, but in response to the question what your

Page 23896

 1     occupation is, when asked by Mr. McCloskey, when he asked you what your

 2     profession is, you said, "I'm a forensic anthropologist and death

 3     investigator."  Is that your profession?

 4        A.   Well, that's my degree as an anthropology, but I do death

 5     investigations.  I do assessments of graves.  I set up the -- what's

 6     needed to do these -- these excavations and -- and set up the autopsy

 7     areas, make sure the individuals get to where they need to get, make sure

 8     that we have proper equipment, make sure that we have our -- our

 9     vehicles.  If we were in a place like Rwanda, we need to take almost

10     everything we have or else we wouldn't have it.  We'd have to take our

11     own cars, our own water filtration systems, our own bathrooms.  So doing

12     that kind of thing surrounding what -- what else we -- what else we have

13     to do, but as -- as the person that's directing this, they have to be

14     able to do these ancillary things also, but I am an anthropologist

15     according to my -- according to my college education.

16        Q.   Yes, that's what you do, but I'm trying to find out what your

17     training is.  In the Krstic trial, on page 3724, you said, when asked

18     what your position was, you said, "I was the chief medical investigator."

19        A.   When I worked at the medical examiner's office, yes, and -- you

20     want to know what I did there?  Okay.

21        Q.   No.  I'm interested in the training you got through education.

22     Did you graduate from the medical school?

23             JUDGE MORRISON:  Dr. Karadzic -- Dr. Karadzic, if you wanted to

24     know what the witness's training was, that should have been your first

25     question.  We've now spent 12 minutes to get to the question you really

Page 23897

 1     want to ask.

 2             THE WITNESS:  My schooling from college is anthropology, biology,

 3     a bit of archaeology, and then I went to -- and when the -- for the

 4     medical examiner's office, we would go to state meetings and to police

 5     teaching, and actually, I ended up doing a lot of that teaching, and they

 6     would have to do with the law as far as death investigation.  It had to

 7     do with anatomy.  It had to do with postmortem interval.  It had to do

 8     with an area called taphonomy.  It had to do with all of the kinds of

 9     work we had to do, and in fact, I co-authored a book that's used to train

10     death investigators all over the United States.  You have to know about

11     medications.  You have to know many things.  But I am not a medical

12     physician.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Yes.  With all due respect to you and the Trial Chamber, I'm

15     trying to establish not all the kind of works you did but what you were

16     qualified to do.  Were you the chief medical investigator?

17        A.   I was, but I worked underneath the -- the pathologist, the

18     medical doctors.  I worked for them.

19        Q.   So he was the chief medical examiner, not you; correct?

20        A.   I was not -- I was the chief medical investigator.  The person

21     that runs the medical examiner's offices usually are medical forensic

22     pathologists.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

24             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, perhaps it would be helpful to get

25     a time-frame on these questions, whether we're talking about

Page 23898

 1     Dr. Haglund's role at the ICTY or previously.  I think there's some

 2     confusion there.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 4             Mr. Karadzic.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   I'll come to that.  I'd like to ask you since when have you been

 7     doing -- have you been engaged in forensic investigation?

 8        A.   1979 or 1980.

 9        Q.   In the Tolimir trial, however, on page 9108, Mr. McCloskey said:

10             [In English] "He has been conducting forensic investigations

11     since 1993."

12        A.   I was doing international -- international work on the kinds of

13     topics that we're dealing with here right here in this Chamber since

14     1993, yes.  And that's while I was working -- while I was working with

15     the medical examiner's office, I would go on a foreign investigations in,

16     for instance, Honduras and Guatemala, and also I went to the big grave in

17     Ovcara and did some -- we did some exhumations in -- in part of the

18     rest -- in the -- other part of the country there.  So that was in 1993

19     was the first time that I went out to do this.

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Thank you.  You said that in the Krstic

21     transcript, page 3725, saying that you took leave:

22             [In English] "Well, I took holidays and went on some foreign

23     missions.  In 1993, I was a member of the expert committee and went to

24     Croatia."

25        A.   That's --

Page 23899

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] Who established that committee?

 2        A.   The UN did, and the individuals that were involved in doing it

 3     were done by the Physicians for Human Rights.  They're the one who put

 4     the team together, and I was asked to be on at that team.  I didn't

 5     direct that team, but I learned a lot.

 6        Q.   Could you tell us what this organisation is, doctors for human

 7     rights?

 8        A.   It's Physicians for Human Rights, and they had a forensic part

 9     that they did, but they did much -- they did much.  They, in fact, got a

10     very, very high honorarium for doing the torture of -- getting the first

11     of -- I can't recall but it's -- I'm having memory problems so that's my

12     big problem here, so, but it was -- but they did that.  They look at

13     other situations, and I think now they're involved with -- with Africa,

14     with rapes of women, torture.  They still do the forensic work, the

15     work -- working in Afghanistan right now, and they do a lot of teaching.

16        Q.   Thank you, but who are they?  Who set them up and what kind of

17     institution is it?

18        A.   It's a -- it's -- it's one that they don't earn money.  They

19     collect money from -- from the people -- people give them -- give them

20     funds in order to run their -- it's -- it's -- it's not an industry or

21     anything like that.  It's -- it's called human rights.  They do a lot of

22     things for human rights.  And they'll do publications and lectures and

23     train people -- thing.

24        Q.   Thank you.  So that's a private association of citizens in a

25     certain line of work; correct?

Page 23900

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             JUDGE BAIRD:  [Microphone not activated] ... Doctor, I don't

 3     quite [indiscernible] the Physicians for Human Rights got a high

 4     honorarium for doing the torture.

 5             THE WITNESS:  Not doing the torture.

 6             JUDGE BAIRD:  [Overlapping speakers]

 7             THE WITNESS:  [Overlapping speakers] I'm going to try to remember

 8     what it's called because it was a -- it was an international of -- thing

 9     that you get in Sweden.  They shared that that year because they came up

10     with protocols of dealing with torture and of -- and how to -- you know,

11     talking about laws that should be in -- set in those things and what

12     should happen about that, and actually the UN adopted that also, so ...

13             JUDGE BAIRD:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   When did the UN adopt that protocol and in which document?  Can

17     you help us find it?

18        A.   I -- I don't know when they adopted.  I probably have it at home

19     in my -- my library, but I don't have it in my head.

20        Q.   Thank you.  So nowadays they go around the world to investigate;

21     correct?  And their boss, the director of their pathology department, is

22     Dr. Kirschner; correct?

23        A.   No.  He's just part of the -- they had -- they have various

24     groups working on different kinds of projects, different issues.  One of

25     the -- one of the groups within -- is -- is basically the forensic aspect

Page 23901

 1     of it.  And a lot of what they do is -- is done with compiling

 2     information.  They don't have to go around the world to find a lot of it.

 3     They compile a lot of information and work with organisations like

 4     Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch and things like that.  And

 5     when needed, they would lend their forensic abilities to other

 6     organisations to assist them in what they were doing.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Was Dr. Kirschner there at the time when you

 8     co-operated as director of that pathology department, or is he in that

 9     position still?

10        A.   No.  Dr. Kirschner was very sick at the time he was here and we

11     didn't know it.  He had cancer and he's dead.  I took over his job when

12     he died.  Or when he was very ill and he couldn't work any more then I

13     was asked to take over his job.  So that's when I resigned from the

14     medical examiner's office.  Or that's when I -- actually I resigned from

15     the Tribunal, excuse me.

16        Q.   Thank you.  So we'll get to that.  Tell us, though, how did you

17     get employed by this Tribunal -- or, actually, was it the Tribunal that

18     employed you or the OTP?

19        A.   It was first the Rwanda Tribunal, and Dr. Goldstone had worked

20     very closely at some times with Physician for Human Rights and he knew

21     they had a long reach as far as being able to collect forensic experts to

22     do things, and that's how I was asked to go to Rwanda to do the first

23     assessments, and then when I was done there I came here and did the first

24     assessments in 1995 and early 1996.

25        Q.   So was there a specific document that employed you?  Did

Page 23902

 1     Prosecutor Goldstone officially employ you before you went to Rwanda and

 2     before you did anything there, or was that done subsequently?

 3        A.   That was done subsequently.  In late 1995, about September, I

 4     took a six-week lay -- away from my work at the medical examiner's office

 5     in Washington State and I did the -- Physician for Human Rights paid for

 6     it.  I did a lot of travel and that was paid for by the UN, but I did the

 7     assessments at that point.  And then December 30th, I believe, or 31st,

 8     in 1995 then I was given a contract, and the contract was through the UN

 9     for the Rwanda Tribunal.

10        Q.   And when was it that you were engaged here at this OTP?

11        A.   After the first two large -- the two -- the two exhumations --

12     after the first exhumation, actually, I was asked to come up to The Hague

13     and then go to the former Yugoslavia to start looking at graves that some

14     of the Tribunal individuals were looking for or looking at, and -- and

15     that's -- and then so I was bouncing back and forth between Rwanda and --

16     and the Tribunal, and it wasn't until early July, almost a year from the

17     fall of Srebrenica, that I came back and basically stayed here for the --

18     most of the time and then started doing the exhumations and getting the

19     teams and setting up the facilities we need, basically, things like that.

20        Q.   Thank you.  So what were the first two exhumations after which

21     you were employed, actually?

22        A.   The first exhumation was the Cerska grave which we spoke of

23     yesterday, and then subsequently the next grave was -- was Lazete.  The

24     next day was Nova Kasaba, and then we had to stop for about three weeks

25     because the ordnance sniffing dogs had been taken on vacation and we had

Page 23903

 1     to wait until they come back, because I wouldn't take any people on any

 2     of the scenes without having at least inspected in a way that we would

 3     find out that there were no ordnance on areas, you know, so -- and then

 4     the last of the -- the next one was then Lazete and then the

 5     Branjevo Farm.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  How is that possible?  On behalf of who you or on

 7     whose authority did you work before you were actually employed by this

 8     OTP?

 9        A.   I was working of -- I was being sort of supported by PHR, but I

10     was working with the Tribunal, and I was working with, actually,

11     Mr. Ruez.  Actually, he was the person in charge of the Srebrenica

12     investigations, and those were the graves that they were interested and

13     wanted me to look at, so I accompanied them.  When we were first doing

14     assessments.  I never saw him after we started doing the work.  He was

15     doing his own work.

16        Q.   But you Doctor, sir, I don't see who it was who authorised you to

17     work on these exhumations.  You do two or three exhumations and then only

18     on the basis of that and after that you're employed by the OTP.

19        A.   I was being paid by Rwanda, but I was working here, and then I

20     think the second year and a half I was paid by the Tribunal.  But

21     Dr. Goldstone requested that.  I come up from -- he was -- he was in

22     charge of both Tribunals, and he asked me to come up here and I did so.

23        Q.   We have to clarify that.  Before you were employed here, on the

24     basis of what did you conduct exhumations in Republika Srpska?  On the

25     basis of which document, whose document, which authorised institution?

Page 23904

 1        A.   Well, the authorised institution I worked for was the Tribunal.

 2        Q.   However, you were employed by the International Tribunal after

 3     the exhumations, not before them.

 4        A.   No.  I was employed by either -- by one of the -- one of the --

 5     of the Tribunals from September -- late -- late December 1995 until

 6     mid-1990 -- 1998.

 7        Q.   Do you have that document --

 8        A.   What document is that --

 9        Q.   That --

10        A.   -- my contract?  That's my contract.  I had a contract with them,

11     I guess.  They hired me.  I don't know -- I'm not sure what you're

12     reaching for.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

14             MR. MITCHELL:  Perhaps I can clear up this confusion,

15     Mr. President.  In 1996, the ICTR and ICTY had a single Prosecutor, and I

16     don't know if that will assist Mr. Karadzic in moving on.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, the witness clearly said he was asked

18     by Mr. Goldstone, who at the time was the Prosecutor of this Tribunal.  I

19     think you can move on.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, with all due

21     respect, this witness worked on a private basis without authority and

22     without having proper engagement.  He worked on several exhumations, and

23     I cannot establish --

24             JUDGE KWON:  That's your submission, which is reserved for the

25     later date, but witness clearly said he worked upon the request of

Page 23905

 1     Mr. Goldstone.

 2             THE WITNESS:  I was part of the Tribunal.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Am I right if I say that you were employed by this OTP after a

 5     few exhumations?  Yes or no?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Were you first employed and did you then do the exhumations?  In

 8     this OTP, that is.

 9        A.   After I was -- after I was hired by the UN, yes.  I did

10     exhumations after that.  I did assessments looking at graves prior to

11     that.  At least in the context of the Srebrenica graves.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Tell us, please, did you report to the authorities of

13     Republika Srpska there, and did you receive their consent for doing all

14     of that?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Did you make an offer to them; namely, did you offer

17     them insight into your work?  Did you want to share your findings with

18     them?

19        A.   They never approached us for that.  We allowed them to come to

20     the -- the Cerska grave to visit and they were welcome to do that.

21     Otherwise, there was really no attempt, at least to me, to come, although

22     when we did the Ovcara grave in -- in Croatia of -- the Serbs sent a

23     pathologist and he was able to come over and he watched the autopsies and

24     saw what we did and visited the grave a couple times, and that was fine

25     with us.  We were completely open if somebody would have asked.

Page 23906

 1        Q.   Thank you.  So then, as for these remains that were exhumed in

 2     Republika Srpska, you would hand them over to Mr. Masovic -- or, rather,

 3     the other side; right?

 4        A.   It -- when we -- after the exhumations, we passed them on to the

 5     Bosnians -- Bosnians, and they were in Sarajevo at that time, and

 6     that's -- they -- they -- we returned the remains to them.  They were

 7     their people.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  What was your task?

 9        A.   What was my task?

10        Q.   Yes.

11        A.   Basically -- basically it was to do the -- the exhumations and --

12     and see that the examinations were done and getting a cause of death, and

13     you can see from the reports.  However, being interested in the families

14     and giving the families support, what PHR did, it started a group in

15     Sarajevo and started outreaching to the basic Muslim religious leaders

16     and -- and the -- of the names of the people that ICT -- that ICRC had,

17     the Red Cross --

18             THE ACCUSED:  I do not object, but I don't think the public has

19     any translation.

20             THE WITNESS:  Oh, I'm sorry.  Excuse me.

21             THE ACCUSED:  Serbian translation I didn't hear.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Should you repeat [Overlapping speakers]

23             THE WITNESS:  I'm happy to repeat it, yes.

24             MR. KARADZIC:

25        Q.   You have transcript.  You may [Overlapping speakers]

Page 23907

 1        A.   Yes.  Okay.  As a person that's worked with the dead, actually,

 2     ever since I was in high school, basically because I had an embalmer's

 3     licence at one time, and I dealt with families all the time and I dealt

 4     with families at medical examiner's office and I felt that these families

 5     need -- we did not have to identify individuals.  We just had to reach

 6     the -- the -- what we were looking at as far as identification, as far as

 7     ethnic, you know, things like that, and -- and -- but it was important

 8     for us and -- and a lot of -- because Physician for Human Rights was --

 9     was actually paying a pittance to the people who came over and worked

10     from all over the world, that we wanted to set up an organisation that

11     would start working with the families and start collecting information

12     about when they were last seen, although most of the stuff we got from

13     that was from the Red Cross and then start reaching out to the families

14     and start getting information about the individuals that they were

15     missing and describing their clothes and describing as much as they could

16     about their medical situations and -- and so that -- that went on for --

17     till about 1999.  And during that time, we were able at -- on --

18        Q.   [Interpretation] Thank you.  Thank you.  May I -- we'll get to

19     that.  I was interested in the general assignment, as it were.

20             First of all, let us see who paid the Physicians for Human

21     Rights.  Who paid them, and who paid so little?

22        A.   Physicians for Human Rights, these people -- or human rights

23     people, basically they donated their time.  These were -- these were

24     individuals that Dr. Kirschner had worked with all over the world, and,

25     you know, the anthropologists and archeologists where -- Dr. Clyde Snow

Page 23908

 1     was also involved in that and -- and so we got a lot of people we knew

 2     that -- good pathologists.  But a lot of people they got were as far

 3     as -- archaeologists and anthropologist were from Central and South

 4     America because they had been doing that work since 1983 starting out in

 5     Argentina.

 6        Q.   But they did have some fund.  Who gave them money?  Who paid

 7     them?

 8        A.   I think they got a -- I think they got a -- well, how they get

 9     their money is organisations donate that to them.  They get this money

10     donated, and they had about a million dollars donated and that's how we

11     got our equipment and then -- to Rwanda.

12        Q.   Thank you.  First of all, this general part of the task at hand,

13     please let us take a look at the summary for Nova Kasaba and elsewhere.

14     That is on page 4.  And you say that in July 1995 -- I'll read it out in

15     Serbian so that it can be interpreted.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We do not have the

17     original document.

18             JUDGE KWON:  For the benefit of interpreters and the Bench, it's

19     better to upload that part.  Did you refer to --

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I agree.

21             JUDGE KWON:  -- Nova Kasaba report --

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.

23             JUDGE KWON:  -- which was not touched upon in your

24     examination-in-chief.

25             MR. MITCHELL:  Correct, and we didn't tender the report.

Page 23909

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Very well, let --

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] However, Your Excellencies, this is

 3     becoming part of the case through the Krstic transcript that has been

 4     admitted, so in a way it can get by that way.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We do not prohibit you from dealing with that

 6     part, but let's upload it.  What was the 65 ter number for that?  I take

 7     it it's a report of June 15th --

 8             THE WITNESS:  About that time.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  -- 1998.

10             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 2451, 65 ter 2451.  That should be

13     the number.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have page 4 now.  The

16     summary, it's got to be somewhere.  This must be page 3 then.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Seven?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Summary.  Yes, we've got it in

19     Serbian.  Page 8 in English.

20             THE WITNESS:  I'm unable to read this.  It's sort of blurred.

21     Ah, thank you.  That's helpful.  Yes.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   So this is part of your -- your executive summary where you

24     repeat these assumptions, right, or the prerequisites for your work?  And

25     these assumptions are that approximately 7.000 men and boys went missing

Page 23910

 1     and that the majority are suspected to have been executed.  Was that the

 2     point of departure for your work?

 3        A.   That was -- that was the sort of introduction to what the thing's

 4     about that of -- 7.000 was the number up at that time.  And -- and I

 5     think using the word "execution," probably I shouldn't have done that.

 6     These are deaths, and I'll not there to prove they're executions or not,

 7     I'm just there to talk with the dead people and look at the area and find

 8     out what's going on, and it's up to the -- the Prosecutors to put a

 9     context in there.  I talk for the dead people, not the Tribunal.

10        Q.   Thank you.  So you say that 7.000 was the figure that was bandied

11     about then.  What was the total number of victims that was assumed at the

12     time?

13        A.   Well, it's a continuing thing, you know.  It's going on still,

14     and I know that 6 -- over 6.000 have been identified far, so it's going

15     up, but I could only do so much in one year, so ...

16        Q.   Do you know that at the time the figure of 250- to 300.000 dead

17     Muslims, killed Muslims, was the figure that was bandied about?

18        A.   I'm not aware of that.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Let us, please, look at the second paragraph:

20             "The purpose of the forensic investigation of these graves was to

21     collect evidence for the International Criminal Tribunal," and so on and

22     so forth.

23             So collecting evidence.  And it says here what that evidence is.

24        A.   What that evidence is?  Graves, remains, how the individuals were

25     killed, and all of the things I have in my report.

Page 23911

 1        Q.   And that was done for the Office of the Prosecutor; right?

 2        A.   Yes, it was done for them, but what is in the reports are

 3     basically what the graves and the individuals in the grave and evidence

 4     around the grave, that spoke to us, not -- not the Tribunal.  They got

 5     what they found.  They got what they got, what we actually had observed

 6     and collected.  And they could manipulate that themselves or deal with it

 7     in trials, but that's what these reports are about.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Collecting evidence for the International Tribunal;

 9     wouldn't it have been more correct to say for the Office of the

10     Prosecutor?  Wasn't it the Office of the Prosecutor that had employed you

11     and co-operated with you?

12        A.   Well, I was working for the Tribunal.  The head of the Tribunal

13     asked me, yes, and I worked with the Prosecutor section, yes.  I'd worked

14     with them, yeah.

15        Q.   All right.  You did not work with the Defence, because the

16     Tribunal consists of Chambers, the OTP, and the Defence.  Did you work

17     with the Defence?  Did you co-operate with the Defence?

18        A.   I was never asked to co-operate with the Defence.

19        Q.   Thank you.  In the process of collecting evidence, what did you

20     do with evidence that would work in favour of some Defence?

21        A.   Well, it was all turned over to -- to the Tribunal, actually,

22     so -- that's who I was being employed by, but that's where it went.  I

23     would not have known where to send it to the Defence.

24        Q.   Let us be more specific.  You handed that over to the OTP; right?

25        A.   Yes.  To the -- to the Tribunal.  To the -- to the Prosecutor's

Page 23912

 1     office, yeah.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  For your understanding, OTP is a jargon of the

 4     Tribunal meaning Office of the Prosecutor.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Now, do you think that you had sufficient data, sufficient

 8     information to view things that had happened correctly in order to be

 9     able to rule out prejudice?

10        A.   I'd like to believe I had no prejudice.  I -- like I keep saying,

11     and it maybe seems like simple to you, but we collected information about

12     these graves and the people in them, and the reports are about them, and

13     it can be utilised in the context of the courts.  That's what police do

14     all the time and that, and it's up to the Court and there's -- to deal

15     with this.  Yourself and the Prosecutor.

16        Q.   Thank you.  So is it correct that the first assumption was that

17     these were victims from July 1995?

18        A.   I didn't know that until we started finding the connection

19     between who was in the grave and when they went missing and identifying

20     some of them.  Then you get more of the idea of who they are.  But at

21     this time we know most of the people that had been in Srebrenica graves,

22     or a great many, anyway.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Victims from July 1995, were you cautioned of the

24     possibility that there were victims there from other times, and was your

25     task to single out the victims from July 1995?

Page 23913

 1        A.   No, because most of these graves hadn't been added to.  They

 2     were -- bodies were taken out, not more bodies put in or put on other

 3     bodies.  They're not old graves.  And then, of course, I did see, I

 4     think, one or two of the first flyovers from July, and we knew when those

 5     graves were -- were -- at least there was activity around the graves.

 6     But I saw none -- no indication of -- of bodies having been there from

 7     previous wars or previous burials.  At that -- that didn't show up in

 8     what our findings were.

 9             I can explain sort of how you come about that, if you wish.

10             JUDGE KWON:  What did you mean, Doctor, by "flyover"?

11             THE WITNESS:  There was some aerial photography done.  You've

12     probably seen these and I only saw one of two for just the July thing.

13     That's when we were trying to find the graves.  Branjevo Farm is one I

14     saw.  It's ...

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Thank you.  Did you exclude all those victims that might have

17     been pre-dating those July 1995?  In other words, did you determine the

18     time of their death and the time when they were buried?

19        A.   Well, for instance, the -- the one from Branjevo Farm, we knew

20     when the deaths happened.  We saw the dead people out in the field,

21     according to this flyover, and we saw the machinery and that for where

22     the grave ended up being.  But the only way that we could really get an

23     idea on when these people probably died is when we would find some

24     identifications, and maybe they had documents that were very, very recent

25     or that they had been reported to the ICRC, once we had identified them,

Page 23914

 1     that they had disappeared in first -- first of -- part of July in 1995.

 2     It's become much more clear since then, but we had little to go on at

 3     that time, and -- but when you have remains in a grave and you have one

 4     person on the bottom and one person in the middle and another person on

 5     the top and these other people are all wrapped around him because they're

 6     not layered at all, then you know that these people were dumped in that

 7     grave about the same time.

 8        Q.   Could you discern between the victims that pre-dated July 1995 is

 9     one question.  Another question, however, is whether you could discern

10     those victims that died in July 1995 which were killed in combat as

11     opposed to those that were unlawfully murdered.

12        A.   Mm-hmm.  Well, when you look at graves when they're 63 per cent

13     or so blindfolds, people don't fight with their blindfolds on.

14        Q.   Did your hosts tell you that the combatants, even Serbian

15     combatants, let alone the Muslim combatants, used to wear bandannas on

16     their heads or head pieces and that those may not have been blindfolds?

17        A.   Well, it's difficult to see that all these -- all these head

18     wrappings dropped right down below the eyes and they were tied very tight

19     in place for the most part.  They didn't slip.  They weren't hats or

20     bindings on a head.  They didn't go up or didn't go down.  They stayed on

21     the eyes.  They were tied very tight.

22        Q.   When soft tissue disappears from the skull, do they still remain

23     to be firmly tied or could they move up or down?

24        A.   When these bodies are -- are together and there's no space

25     between them, these things won't migrate from where they were.  And, yes,

Page 23915

 1     you're right.  If the remains was on the surface and turned to skeleton

 2     and the head is moved around, or something, by an animal or it rolls down

 3     a hill, yeah, you could -- could lose a blindfold, but not in the graves.

 4     It would be very difficult to do that.  And they were photographed in

 5     situ before we moved them, so ...

 6             But there were often a lot of blindfolds that were -- were -- or

 7     a lot of cloths, rings of cloth with knots in them sometimes loose in the

 8     grave and you will see that in my reports.

 9        Q.   In a grave, can bones be fractured under the burden of all the

10     other bodies and the earth that comes on top of them?

11        A.   No.  I've never run into that before, especially these deep

12     graves.  If something happened on the surface, it's not going to --

13     bodies are, you know, a metre and a half, 2 metres down.  You can drive a

14     tractor over them and that's not going to break any bones, no.

15        Q.   Did anybody tell you, any of your employers or your hosts in

16     Bosnia, that in that area a war had gone on for 44 months and that there

17     was daily fighting during that time?  Did anybody tell that you?

18        A.   Yes, I was aware there had been a war.  Yes, of course.  We all

19     were.  The world knew.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that under our law there is a process

21     that is called sanitisation, which is a process to remove carcass and

22     bodily remains after each battle?

23        A.   I wasn't aware of that, no.

24        Q.   Did you know that the warring parties handed their fallen

25     soldiers over to their families, whereas they buried the enemy soldiers

Page 23916

 1     in mass graves?

 2        A.   Yes.  No doubt that that happens at times, yes.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know that during the first year of war, up to

 4     March 1993, in the territory under the control of the Muslim side there

 5     were over 1.200 people killed and buried in over 50 mass graves?  I'm

 6     talking about Serbs who were buried in mass graves.

 7        A.   I have no doubt about that either.

 8        Q.   Did the hosts then tell you do not investigate this mass grave or

 9     the other mass grave because the bodies that were buried there were

10     killed during the 44 months of the war?  Did they warn you not to do

11     something, not to investigate some place because they belonged to a

12     different period?

13        A.   They didn't -- they didn't mention anything like that.  I was not

14     aware and I'm not surprised that there would be bodies like that.  If we

15     had dug them up, they would probably have uniforms on, and that would be

16     another situation and that would be a different report.

17        Q.   Did you know that according to Muslim sources, up to 85 per cent

18     of their own soldiers never wore uniforms?

19        A.   I have no doubt of that either.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Did they tell you that between 13.000 and 15.000

21     people, Muslims, from Srebrenica after the 11th of July, went in the

22     direction of Tuzla and they were fighting all the time?  Two or 3.000

23     were civilians, the other were combatants, and a lot of them lost their

24     lives while they were trying to break through towards Tuzla.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

Page 23917

 1             MR. MITCHELL:  Can I get a cite for the claim that 2- to 3.000

 2     were civilians and the rest were combatants.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 4             THE ACCUSED:  [Interpretation] Well, if I had time, I would do

 5     that.  However, we heard Mr. Franken who said that between 13.000 and

 6     15.000 set out, and we saw reports of a Muslim intelligence agency in

 7     which it says that 10.000 combatants reached Tuzla, that they had passed

 8     through.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  The question was:  Among those number of people,

10     what's the basis on your part to -- to argue that only 2- or 3.000 were

11     civilians among them?

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The basis is the fact that 10.000

13     were combatants, which was confirmed by the Muslims.  On top of all those

14     who were killed, 10.000 reached Tuzla, and we know that the column

15     consisted of anything between 12.000 and 15.000 people and 10.000 reached

16     Tuzla.

17             JUDGE KWON:  When you would like to quote Mr. Franken, be

18     precise, or just put your case to the witness.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.  I will do that in my

20     closing argument.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   However, I put it to you, sir, based on what we have heard in the

23     proceedings so far, that 13.000 to 15.000 people set out in the direction

24     of Tuzla, that one-third carried weapons, and that the Muslim side

25     registered 10.000 combatants who finally arrived in Tuzla and that some

Page 23918

 1     3.000 were considered to be lost during their breakthrough through the

 2     forest.  Do you know all that?

 3        A.   Vaguely, yes.  Yeah.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know that the Serbs found those bodies in the

 5     forests, in the woods, and that they buried them in mass graves?

 6        A.   I wasn't aware of that.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know, did you hear that in Bare about 600

 8     bodies of people who died from shrapnel was found on the surface?

 9        A.   I am not aware of any of these things, so I can't really comment

10     on them.

11        Q.   Thank you.  If I put it to you that our Zvornik Brigade, which

12     was entrenched and putting up defence, suffered more losses over those

13     three or four days than during the entire length of the war, would you

14     agree that the side that mounted the attack must have suffered even more

15     losses than that?

16        A.   Well, I'm not into battle-field things like that.  I don't -- I

17     could see what happened or not.  I don't know.  I was not there.  I don't

18     know about this.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree with me that the host should have

20     informed you of all the possibilities so that you did not have all those

21     ambiguities that you, yourself, very honestly admitted having?

22        A.   Could you -- could you tell me more when I said that there were

23     these ambiguities that I admitted having?  Can you tell me where that

24     appears or if I could review that?

25        Q.   On page 3759 in the Krstic case, in answering Judge Riad's

Page 23919

 1     question.

 2        A.   What was the context of that?  Could you please tell me that?

 3     Then I might be able to help you.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Let's upload Exhibit P4310, 4310.

 5             Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

 6             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, I think this is a specific line of

 7     questioning that relates to whether the Branjevo Farm had been disturbed

 8     and whether Dr. Haglund was aware at the time that he did the exhumation,

 9     whether that grave had been disturbed or not.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  If doctor sees the transcript page, that will

11     be resolved, naturally.  So -- it's page 37.

12             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  If I could make it a little larger.

13             JUDGE KWON:  We'll come to that.  Hard copy, yes, it's coming.

14             THE WITNESS:  Well, as you see by my report on the Branjevo Farm,

15     the Lazete grave was very, very -- it just shouted at you.  You knew what

16     happened there.  And I really -- really couldn't come to a final

17     determination of what I felt there.  I think I gave a couple

18     possibilities, and I just said I would just wait for further information

19     to come, because I didn't feel that I -- it was ambiguous to me, and I

20     didn't want to say something that -- it's ambiguous.  That's how you --

21     it's ambiguous.  I can't make a call one or the other.  And I gave two

22     possibilities and there were probably other probabilities too.  But

23     everything does not seem clear to me.  Some things are ambiguous.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Thank you.  Well, that's a very fair conclusion on the part of a

Page 23920

 1     scientist.  However, I'm asking you now if you had all the information

 2     about the war that had lasted for 44 months and that in July during the

 3     critical period of time there were a lot of dead who were subsequently

 4     buried in mass graves, would it have been easier for you to deal with

 5     those ambiguities and possibly resolve them?

 6        A.   Well, would I have to -- have to investigate and exhume the grave

 7     and find out what was going on.  Some -- if you see most of these -- of

 8     reports that we're -- we're looking at, I was able to resolve most of the

 9     problems, and I came to conclusions.  Each grave is different.

10        Q.   I would like to call up the two previous pages, 3757, for

11     example, and then 3758.  Do you agree with me, Mr. Haglund, that it is a

12     much easier job for a piece of machinery to split a body, to break a body

13     in parts if that body is in an advanced stage of decomposition?  Much

14     easier, that is, than it would have been for the same machine to do it

15     immediately after the death of that person while the body was still

16     fresh, as it were.

17        A.   Well, with these bodies that are fresh and actually adipocered,

18     they last a long time in damp places like some of these graves were.  A

19     big machine could do that.  Whether it was fleshed, unfleshed, skeletal,

20     all they have to do is just drop that big bucket right down there - it

21     weighs hundreds of pounds - and they would just crush it.  And if you're

22     dealing with bodies that are more -- gone far beyond in decomposition,

23     when you lift them up parts will drop off, if the bodies were in that

24     kind of condition.  So, yes, you have a good point, yeah.  But it wasn't

25     this way in these graves.  They were put in there fresh, and any

Page 23921

 1     decomposition that happened came while they were in the grave.

 2        Q.   Please look.  You are aware that things could have been different

 3     here.  If you look at the page, you can see that from line 7 -- look at

 4     your answer starting at line 7.  And then line 17 --

 5        A.   I'd like to read the paragraph before, if I could here, and then

 6     I'll read down.  Could you put it back, put it down so I could see the

 7     previous question and that -- what's going on there.  Thank you very

 8     much.  It jumped off my screen.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  I note the time.  I take it that we

10     have a printout of this transcript, Mr. Mitchell.  I was wondering why we

11     do not have more legible ones.

12             MR. MITCHELL:  We can upload a better quality version and --

13             JUDGE KWON:  But -- but we'll take a break now.  Why don't we

14     hand over the transcript to the doctor so that he can read during the

15     break.

16             MR. MITCHELL:  Certainly.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, please be

18     mindful of the fact that we have a very important witness here who has

19     produced four reports.  Please look at the time that you have given me

20     irrespective of the fact that I'm a layperson.  I believe that any

21     Defence would have a lot of work here in terms of examining this witness.

22             JUDGE KWON:  I would not spend in the manner as you did.

23             We'll take a break for 20 minutes and resume at quarter to 11.00.

24                           --- Recess taken at 10.24 a.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 10.47 a.m.

Page 23922

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Dr. Haglund, please look at the entire page.  Can we scroll up to

 4     page 25.  You say here that the bodies may have been collected from the

 5     surface with the help of machines; is that correct?

 6        A.   That's correct.

 7        Q.   Do we then agree that you say here:

 8             [In English] "They could have tumbled and maybe been torn apart"?

 9             [Interpretation] Is this something that could have happened if

10     the sanitisation process took place months after those people died?

11        A.   The one flyover picture I saw were the bodies in the field, and

12     they were moved to the grade, which was a bit aways.  I had -- I think

13     they were moved by a machine, and I think they were scooped up off the

14     ground, and they rolled and some of them got cut apart and some got put

15     in that pile.  Now I know there are secondly and tertiary graves where

16     parts of those individuals were not in that first grave, that group of

17     individuals, but bodies that had been removed from that grave ended up in

18     secondary and tertiary graves and part of those individuals belong to the

19     people that were -- in the -- what part that I was able to -- we were --

20     out team was able to -- exhumed.

21        Q.   I may not have been very precise.  This is my assumption:  There

22     was fighting.  Some of those who died in fighting were discovered only

23     through you four weeks later, and then machines were used to collect the

24     bodies from the surface.  If a body that was collected in such a way from

25     the surface and you, yourself, mentioned the fact that there may have

Page 23923

 1     been mechanical collection from the surface, would it have been easier

 2     for such a body to be torn apart by such a machine a month after the

 3     death than it would have been for such a body to be torn apart if it was

 4     scooped by the machine immediately after the death?

 5        A.   The same.

 6        Q.   But you said that a body in an advanced state of decomposition

 7     is -- is easier to disintegrate, to tear apart, than a fresh body.

 8        A.   Yeah.  Usually if it's -- if it's decomposed, yeah.

 9        Q.   Now, another possibility.  Can we rule out the possibility that

10     one sanitisation drive from one battle-field collected some bodies whole

11     and tore some other bodies apart, depositing them in one location,

12     whereas another group of bodies were collected elsewhere and placed in a

13     different grave?

14        A.   That's a possibility, but I think we know now that that's not

15     true, because all the buses brought those people out the same day, but

16     that's not part of my report.  This is stuff that I learned afterwards I

17     didn't know about.

18        Q.   And who told you that, and how do you know that there were no

19     people buried there beforehand?  I'm talking in principle.  I'm not

20     talking about any particular grave site.  How do you know that in each

21     sanitisation bodies are not added to an existing grave?

22        A.   I'm sure it does happen.  If the bodies were out, you know, say,

23     like, three weeks or so that you said, I think we'd see some difference.

24     In a deep grave like that we would have been able to tell there was

25     something going on.  If one pile was in -- torn apart but wasn't -- they

Page 23924

 1     were -- they were sort of save underneath that amount of dirt and they

 2     were doing -- going through adipocere and not regular decomposition that

 3     you would on the surface, and I think if we'd seen another part of the

 4     grave that -- that looked really different than the one we did and it was

 5     that deep, we would have some questions about that.  But, of course, we

 6     didn't run into any other -- other groups of bodies down there, only at

 7     that one.  And I'm saying in general also, so ...

 8        Q.   Thank you.  But regarding Lazete 1 and Lazete 2, within Lazete 2A

 9     and B show certain differences.  Did anyone ever give you the task to

10     determine which grave sites would be related to sanitisation and which

11     ones would be related to executions?

12        A.   Well, in -- in the Lazete grave, once that grave was opened, they

13     got to the atmosphere, and I think that they could have -- they would

14     have -- they would have decomposed a bit more and faster because of that,

15     but if you look at the bodies still in there, they're in pretty good

16     condition.  It's just the parts that were pulled off and fell off that

17     were different.

18        Q.   Is there a single grave where the degree of decomposition is

19     approximately the same across the grave?  In other words, is it the case

20     that there is a large range in terms of decomposition?

21        A.   Yeah, there is a difference in the decomposition.  The bodies

22     that are in the mass, where the mass grave is, the bodies are together,

23     they retain fluids from the bodies and -- and they're, like, sealed

24     together.  But when you go around the periphery of the grave, one part of

25     the body may be sticking into that mass and maybe the legs or the head or

Page 23925

 1     one part will be sticking out all by themselves.  They'll be more

 2     decomposed than the ones in the mass themselves.  But throughout I found

 3     when these graves were in piles pretty much the people within the pile

 4     are going to be pretty much the same decomposition as -- or preservation

 5     throughout that mass.

 6             I could show you pictures of those things, those kind of things,

 7     okay.

 8        Q.   Is that the only explanation, or is it one of the possible

 9     explanations?

10        A.   That's when they're all dumped in together and--- at one time,

11     yeah.  I, offhand -- I'm not sure I'm clear on what -- what the question

12     is, but they pretty main -- they maintain pretty well.  I mean they're --

13     they happened in the Katyn graves.  After some 1993 they were doing --

14     they did some exhumations, and those bodies are still -- have saponified

15     tissue on them.  It's amazing.

16        Q.   You're talking about Katyn in Poland.

17             [No interpretation]

18             JUDGE KWON:  Could you repeat the question.  We didn't have the

19     interpretation.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Concerning variations in the degree of decomposition, is the only

22     explanation the one you just gave, that bodies were in a pile and that

23     different conditions apply, or is it just one of the possible

24     explanations?

25        A.   That's one of the possible explanations.  In -- in dry -- in a

Page 23926

 1     really dry desert, for instance, like in Iraq, you have bodies that have

 2     been in for a year or two, and they may be of -- they're -- they'll maybe

 3     get more like mummified because there's not a lot of -- I just happened

 4     to do one grave that they were -- they were sort of laying in a single

 5     layer, but they were mummified and they were rather deep.  And when you

 6     talk about the Cerska grave, although -- and you can see that was a

 7     shallow grave, a lot of those bodies are partially decomposed and the

 8     bones are free and defleshed and some parts of the bodies are still

 9     there.  It would depend upon if other bodies had been laying on top of

10     them -- for protecting them from the heat and the sun and the warmed up

11     gravel that was around them.  So, yes, there are different environments

12     where these -- where various different kinds of things happen to the

13     remains as far as decomposition.

14        Q.   I'm sorry, I'm waiting for the interpretation.  When we take into

15     account the grave -- was it Pilica where you found that the grave is 28

16     metres long and only 14 per cent of it was filled with bodies; is that

17     correct?

18        A.   Yes.  Of just the floor.  It was of the floor of the grave, yeah.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Now, in your opinion, that's a primary grave; right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Let us now try to establish what happened there.  How did it come

22     about that a grave 28 metres long of a regular shape was dug and then

23     only 14 per cent of it is used?  More precisely, did anyone warn you that

24     somebody -- did somebody tell you that it could have been a trench that

25     was later almost accidentally used to bury people?

Page 23927

 1        A.   I've not heard anything like that, no.

 2        Q.   But you know that there was combat there and the positions

 3     shifted.

 4        A.   I'm not aware of the -- of the combat situation in -- in the war.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Mitchell.

 6             MR. MITCHELL:  Can I clarify?  Is Mr. Karadzic citing to

 7     something in the trial, or is it his position that there was combat in

 8     Pilica, because I don't think we've heard any evidence that there was

 9     combat anywhere near this location.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Mr. Karadzic, what did you mean by "there"?

11     Did you mean that there was combat in the Branjevo Military Farm?

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm saying the entire area is

13     criss-crossed with trenches, and I'm asking the witness if he has an

14     explanation how come a big grave like that was dug and then only 14

15     per cent of it is used?  Did he take into account the possibility that it

16     was once a trench that was then opportunistically used to bury people.

17             JUDGE KWON:  We heard the answer from the doctor.  Please move

18     on, Mr. Karadzic.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Do you agree that this one mass grave, although we couldn't

21     really call it a mass grave because there was only one body of an elderly

22     gentleman was there, used to be a trench, and do you remember you found

23     shell cases of a large calibre there from bullets that he probably fired

24     himself?

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Before you answer, Dr. Haglund.

Page 23928

 1             Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

 2             MR. MITCHELL:  Which grave are we talking about now?  The body of

 3     one elderly gentleman --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. --

 5             Mr. MITCHELL:  -- there, used to be a trench.

 6             THE WITNESS:  Nova Kasaba, is that what you're talking about?

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Yes.

 9        A.   I don't know how that man died.  He had -- well, I know how --

10     his -- he had a -- a blunt trauma to his head, and he was buried in a --

11     in a very shallow grave.  I have no idea of who put him there or if he

12     was connected to the other three graves that we have at -- at that time.

13        Q.   Did you go there or did somebody give you this information?  Were

14     you there at the time of the exhumation?

15        A.   Yes, of course.  I was gone during one when the -- there was

16     another grave found there that had six individuals in.  One had 7, one

17     had 19, 1 person in one grave, and then there were 6 in another grave.  I

18     think I was at the autopsy area that day, but I was informed about all

19     the stuff when I came back the next day.  And I can see the photographs

20     and things like that.

21        Q.   Thank you.  We've heard testimony here from a man who attended

22     the exhumation that that particular grave used to be a trench and has all

23     the characteristic of a trench.  I'm asking you now, do you accept the

24     possibility that trenches, once captured --

25             JUDGE KWON:  You are wasting time by not giving precise

Page 23929

 1     reference.

 2             Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

 3             MR. MITCHELL:  I was going to ask for a citation and also just

 4     for Mr. Karadzic's reference, point out if he's referring to

 5     Mr. Baraybar, there are two sets of Nova Kasaba graves.  So those two

 6     sets of graves shouldn't be confused.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Mitchell.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   I think this is Nova Kasaba 4 that I'm talking about, and you

10     spoke about that in the Krstic trial, page 3765.  In Nova Kasaba 4, you

11     saw 19 bodies.  And in another one, you found one.  It could be Kasaba 4.

12     I think one body was found there.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have the transcript, Doctor, with you?

14             THE WITNESS:  Of the --

15             JUDGE KWON:  The Krstic trial.  It's 3765.

16             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

17             MR. KARADZIC:

18        Q.   "Who had no determined cause of death.  Skeletal remains which is

19     explainable because of the relatively superficial nature of the body

20     compared to the depth of the ones that were fleshed at the same site."

21        A.   Yes.  He could have been in there longer.  He could have been

22     found decomposed somewhere and put in that shallow grave.  I don't know.

23     All I know is he had, I think, blunt trauma to the head, and he was

24     skeletalised.

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Did they inform you that he was buried in a

Page 23930

 1     trench and shell casings of a large calibre were found next to his body,

 2     and they could have been fired only by the man himself?

 3        A.   I -- I don't recall that at all.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Please look at this:  The Trial Chamber put very

 5     interesting questions to you in the Krstic case.  Look at page 3769.

 6     Judge Wald asked you whether they were placed that way, and you say --

 7     sorry?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Let us find the page.

 9             THE WITNESS:  3765 --

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 3773 should be the page and goes on

11     at 3774.

12             THE WITNESS:  Three.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Bottom of the page.

14             THE WITNESS:  And this is 377?

15             THE ACCUSED:  3773.  [Interpretation] We can move on to the next

16     page now.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Your answer was not heard here, but Judge Wald wonders how it is

19     possible for somebody to be hit by 20 bullets if that was an execution.

20     How long does a man keep standing after being hit by a high velocity

21     bullet from an automatic weapon?

22        A.   Still I'm looking at 3773, and I'm trying to find that --

23             JUDGE KWON:  Then why don't we rely on the e-court.  Let -- let

24     us show the doctor the bottom of page 3773.  You see Judge Wald's

25     question.

Page 23931

 1             THE WITNESS:  Yes, okay.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  And if you're done with this page, let us know so we

 3     can move to the next page.

 4             Next page.

 5             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  Mm-hmm.  May I stand up just a second?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  I beg your pardon?

 7             THE WITNESS:  Could I stand up for just a second, here?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, of course.

 9             THE WITNESS:  The people that shot these people that were lined

10     up along the other side of the road--

11             JUDGE KWON:  If you could speak to the microphone.  Yes, that

12     would be sufficient.

13             THE WITNESS:  They did that spray-type shooting.  They stood with

14     automatic weapons across from him with these people facing forward for

15     the most part, and just spraying those people with shots.  That's why so

16     many of them were -- some of them were shot 20 times.  And they could be

17     shot again in the grave but some of them were probably still alive when

18     they hold them in.  So, yes, he could have 20 shots on him.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Let's look at the text to the bottom of the page.  Is it the case

22     that in Cerska, the grave about which Judge Wald was asking, the victims

23     fell down a slope, according to what you determined?

24        A.   They either fell over the slope or had been rolled over after

25     they fell.  Maybe some of them fell in a row.  They were rolled over each

Page 23932

 1     other, rolled down the incline.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Let's follow your answer from page 22 and now we can

 3     move to the next page.  From line 22, sorry.

 4             This is your first answer; right?

 5        A.   Mm-hmm.

 6        Q.   Were you aware that there had been or could have been

 7     opportunistic killing and opportunistic grave robbing and manipulation of

 8     graves and tampering by people who didn't know what was where?

 9        A.   And where is this statement he's asking us.  I guess our question

10     is ...

11        Q.   I'm putting my question, and if you don't -- if you answer, I

12     don't have to call up that passage.  Were you aware that there could have

13     been opportunistic killing there and that bodies may have been buried at

14     different times?

15        A.   Well, they were buried by machines that dug the graves, and there

16     was one big smear.  I didn't see any differences.  There were tracks

17     going over there and they were continuous, so ... I think it happened

18     around the same time.  It could have been separate episodes but around

19     the same time.

20        Q.   Look at your answer to Judge Wald's question starting at line 5,

21     and your answer begins at line 9, and then let's read till the bottom of

22     the page.

23        A.   Yep.  Okay.

24        Q.   [In English] But one question --

25        A.   Yes, I said it may have happened at different times, yeah, you're

Page 23933

 1     right, you're correct.  I'm sorry.

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we see the bottom of the page.

 3             You say you are sure they did not intend to leave body parts and

 4     that was your impression.  Can we see the next page?

 5        A.   That is true.  And the reason they didn't -- for instance, in the

 6     Lazete grave, that area, that drainage, driving those big machines there

 7     destroyed all the brush and grass.  All there was was mud, and it was a

 8     continuos big area of mud.  And we found that the graves alongside there,

 9     alongside the embankment going up into a small forest, when people came

10     back, the people -- the people driving the trucks likely weren't the

11     individuals that did the killing.  They wouldn't know, and even if they

12     took somebody back there that had been there, that surface was -- the

13     extent of that surface of area that -- the potential grave, they wouldn't

14     know exactly where those bodies were.  It would look similar to them.

15     They would get close to them, but they didn't know, but they're digging

16     in there blindly.  That's why they leave things behind.  And that's why

17     they missed some things.  They missed Lazete 2A, and they miss this one,

18     the Branjevo Farm grave, when the graves were being robbed.

19        Q.   So as we can see at the very beginning of this page, all of that

20     is your impression; right?  And please take a look at your answer to the

21     next question starting from line 5.

22             [In English] "Many -- I think there is many, many possible

23     reasonable explanations we could make."

24             [Interpretation] Is that your position?

25        A.   Yes.  It could be done at night.  It could be done with

Page 23934

 1     individuals who are not familiar with the graves.  They didn't know the

 2     extent of the graves.  There are -- yeah.  There's not a single answer to

 3     these questions.  It's dependent upon the -- it's --

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Just as that is uncertain, there is also the

 5     possibility of opportunistic killings; right?  3775 is the page

 6     reference.

 7              [In English] "There has subsequently been another Nova Kasaba

 8     grave that has been exhumed, and I'm not sure how many individuals.  I

 9     believe it was less than hundred.  I am not sure, but I think my

10     experience with homicides basically is oftentimes, although there may be

11     some systematic approach to some killings, some are more opportunistic

12     and you have a smaller group rather than a larger group.  It's as simple

13     as that."

14        A.   Yep.

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Is that right?

16        A.   That's what I said, yes.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Now can we establish the following:  A grave of 28

18     metres, Pilica, was it dug first and were people brought there then and

19     executed, or was the execution carried out first and were they then

20     brought to that grave?

21        A.   That's a question I cannot answer.  I don't know an answer,

22     excuse me.

23        Q.   But then it is quite unclear why -- or, rather, how this

24     happened.  Why would somebody dig a big grave and have a small execution,

25     or if they already carried out an execution somewhere out in the field,

Page 23935

 1     then they brought the victims there to -- to at that grave.  Isn't that a

 2     bit perplexing?  Would you agree?

 3        A.   Well, no I don't.  I can't answer that because I don't know an

 4     answer.  I haven't talked with these people.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Let us take a look at your report Lazete 2 from the

 6     introduction onwards.  In Serbian it's page 13.

 7             Is it correct that Lazete 2 was investigated already on the

 8     14th and 15th of April, 1996?

 9        A.   Page 13 of Lazete, what you said?

10             JUDGE KWON:  I think it's first page of executive summary.

11             THE WITNESS:  Oh, okay.  Fine.

12             JUDGE KWON:  The last sentence --

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The introduction.  It says,

14     Chapter II, "Introduction," and then --

15             THE WITNESS:  Is this is on beginning page or page 13, because

16     page 13 is a ...

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In Serbian, it's page 13.  There is

18     the introduction first and then the third paragraph says preliminary

19     investigation at Lazete 2.

20        Q.   Yes.

21        A.   That was prior to exhumations.  This was when I was -- I came at

22     that time to look at the site.  There was -- the only digging that was

23     done was we found an individual who was lying on the surface, and so we

24     sort -- it was a skeleton, and we bagged him up and put him in a -- in

25     a -- above where we thought the grave was and buried him so he would be

Page 23936

 1     there when we came back, because the animals would -- there was a lot of

 2     dogs and things around that -- we just want to protect that remains but

 3     we photographed where we got it from, et cetera.  But we did not -- I had

 4     not much idea what was going on there until we opened up the grave.  That

 5     was just sort of an assessment.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, the original English version says

 7     "Preliminary reconnaissance."

 8             THE WITNESS:  Oh, I'm sorry.  It says "preliminary investigation"

 9     here in the translation, "istraga."  I'm sorry, so it's a mistranslation

10     and this is an official translation of that.  However, all right.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   How many times was Lazete investigated, re-dug?  And what

13     happened in April, is that authorised or unauthorised?  According to our

14     legal system that would have been unauthorised digging.  Who was it that

15     gave the order to have this carried out?

16        A.   We didn't -- all we did was bury a gentleman there, and I wasn't

17     exhuming graves at that point.  I do know we did -- when we did the

18     exhumation in that part where the bodies had been robbed from, as I told

19     you it was very wet and it was a very deep grave, and the water caused

20     some collapse into that area where that robbed grave was, Lazete 2B, and

21     it was dangerous, and so I made everybody get out of that grave, and we

22     filled it up, and then when the grave in front between the road and

23     the -- the Ovcara -- or Lazete 1 grave was done, I had marked in my

24     report there were still bodies that -- there was one body -- I knew

25     because the legs were sticking out, and so then they noted that and then

Page 23937

 1     they went back in and dug that and got, I think, 19 people out that we

 2     had to leave in there because of the danger of continuing the exhumation.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  So in April of 1996, this was carried out, the first

 4     probes.  Then the first visit by Physicians for Human Rights was on the

 5     19th of August, 1996, and that's when the first exhumations took place.

 6     Were you interrupted by the rain then?

 7        A.   Yes.  I comment on that in my report.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  And then at the end of 2001, the investigation at

 9     that particular grave was done or ended; right?

10        A.   I'm not quite sure what it was.  I think it was probably around

11     that time.  If you say it's 2001 and you have seen the report, you're

12     correct.  I have no idea.  I knew it was a few years later.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please take a look at the next page.  It

14     says that this started on the 26th of August and went on until the

15     1st of September.  The post-mortems were carried out in the temporary

16     morgue in Kalesija under the supervision of Dr. Robert Kirschner, the

17     director of the international forensics programme of the organisation

18     called Physicians for Human Rights.  So he was the director of that

19     programme; right?

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could we please have a

21     page reference when this kind of material is quoted?  Thank you.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Have you found it?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   So he was the director, and as I had asked, and I was told that

Page 23938

 1     he was not.

 2        A.   He was the director but he wasn't around most of the time when he

 3     would ask some -- one of the pathologists to be the director at that time

 4     when he was gone, but of -- I think he was there at that time, because

 5     this -- I'm not sure if he was there at the time.  I didn't keep track of

 6     his calendar.  I know he had to go back and forth to the United States

 7     and other places, an so -- but he officially was the director of the

 8     autopsy and the pathologist.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  For the Registrar, it's page ending with 1643.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   When was this report submitted?

12        A.   This report was submitted June 15, 1998.  Is that what you're

13     saying?

14             JUDGE KWON:  He said Lazete 2.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   But it was concluded by mid-September.  Wasn't it handed in at

17     the end of September 1996?

18        A.   No, it wasn't.  After I got done with that, I had 25 volumes of

19     -- or 12 or 25 volumes to write, put together, and it took me a year and

20     a half to get those, and I prioritised those four graves that were being

21     done first -- or excuse me, the trials were going on where these

22     particular things were upon.  The Ovcara grape was the first one that I

23     did.  So that's why some of these things lingered for a long time.  It's

24     just that I can only stay up 14, 15 hours a day and work on these things,

25     and I only had one helper to do that, so ...

Page 23939

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Please take a look at the next sentence then that is

 2     repeated very often when the final conclusions are being drawn up about

 3     the cause of death.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could we please have a

 5     reference.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Let's find the reference and then go on.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] It's the same page that you

 8     mentioned a moment ago.

 9        A.   Page 2 of the report, yeah.

10        Q.   "Autopsies, examinations of victims began on August 26."  That's

11     the beginning.

12             JUDGE KWON:  We just -- further down.

13             THE WITNESS:  I see that, yes.

14             JUDGE KWON:  For the benefit of the interpreters.  Yes.  Carry

15     on.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   It says that:

18             "Finalisation of cause and manner of death as well as editing of

19     final autopsy reports was facilitated by ICTY legal advisor

20     Peter McCloskey.  The pathology summary was written by forensic

21     pathologist Page Hudson, M.D.  Other contributing authors to this report

22     are noted in the Acknowledgements (Section) IX, Volume I of this report."

23             Mr. Haglund, in several of your reports you acknowledge

24     Mr. McCloskey for his active participation in the establishment of

25     conclusion on the cause and manner of death as well as editing final

Page 23940

 1     autopsy reports; isn't that right?

 2        A.   Yes.  I had to put that in there because I wanted people to be

 3     aware that he didn't make changes at anything.  He just went around the

 4     world to see the particular pathologists.  I had done particular cases,

 5     had them look it over, and if there was a change to -- made these

 6     pathologists made the change, not McCloskey.

 7        Q.   I saw that in your testimony in the Tolimir case.  However, do

 8     you agree that -- this, that you are acknowledging him for is not really

 9     courier's work.  That is a very fundamental way of participating in the

10     work, and of course the OTP must find this embarrassing.  So he did take

11     part in this endeavour and was acknowledged by you, duly acknowledged;

12     right?

13        A.   When I mean finalisation, he got the -- if there was a change or

14     anything done -- this was up in the air at the time there was this

15     investigation going on.  He finalised it by taking it all to the doctors

16     and having them look at the papers, make sure they were comfortable with

17     it.  If they weren't, they changed it.  That was the finalisation.  I

18     don't mean he did anything to finalise it, but he carried all the things

19     around the word being a finalisation to this, basically.  I didn't mean

20     that he signed anything or determined cause of death for anyone or

21     anything like that, no.  Maybe I mis-worded this in a way that don't make

22     sense to some people, but it made sense to me.

23        Q.   Thank you.  It makes sense to the Defence, too, but we just have

24     to have this established if that's the way it was.

25             Please look at Serbian page 79.  I don't know what the English

Page 23941

 1     page would be.  It's before the blindfolds or the ligatures.

 2        A.   Is this in the same case that we're looking at here, the

 3     Lazete -- Lazete.

 4        Q.   Yes, yes.

 5        A.   Okay, and I'm looking now, just before -- what part?  Could you

 6     please tell me again.  I'm [indiscernible] [overlapping speakers]

 7     blindfolds.  Okay, I'll -- I'll --

 8        Q.   In Serbian I have page 79, number 3, Lazete 2, external

 9     examination.

10        A.   Okay.  Let me get here and I'll find it here.

11        Q.   Number 3, external examination.

12        A.   I will find it.

13        Q.   Two pages before the one that we see now in Serbian.  Two pages

14     before this graph that we see.  [Overlapping speakers] This is 8, number

15     8.  This is 7 and 8.  Eight in Serbian, 7 in English.  Could we have 3?

16        A.   Okay.  I have it.  I have it.  It's my problem.

17             JUDGE KWON:  What's the page number?

18             THE WITNESS:  Forty-nine, I think that's where we are talking

19     about [overlapping speakers]

20             JUDGE KWON:  Are we looking at the right page on the monitor?

21             THE WITNESS:  Page 48 is where the blindfolds are.  That was the

22     blindfolds.  Is that what you wanted or what?

23             JUDGE KWON:  I think he refers to the previous page.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, no.  It's not the right page in

25     English.  Number 3.  Yes, yes.  This is it.  Number 3.

Page 23942

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Page 48.

 2             THE WITNESS:  Yeah.  Forty-eight, right there.  So what is the --

 3     what is the question there about that?

 4             JUDGE KWON:  And for the record, in e-court page 61, probably.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   So your answer given to Judge Wald in response to her question

 8     about the possibility of different times of burial, please take a look at

 9     this.  If we look at this range of decomposition or degradation, does

10     that also open that possibility, if you will?

11        A.   I want to look at her question if I could and see my answer.  Are

12     we still around 3775 or ... could you tell me where Judge Wald asked that

13     question, what page it would be on the testimony?

14             JUDGE KWON:  Her question started from 3773.

15             THE WITNESS:  Yeah.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Continuing to 37 --

17             THE WITNESS:  Right.

18             JUDGE KWON:  76.

19             THE WITNESS:  Right.  I just want to know what particular page

20     we're looking at.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 3775.

23             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

24             MR. MITCHELL:  Correct.

25             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

Page 23943

 1             MR. KARADZIC:

 2        Q.   [No interpretation]

 3             [In English] "Yes, that's very interesting.  They may have

 4     appeared at different times.  I have no idea."

 5             [Interpretation] That was your answer.

 6        A.   It would have been a short-term time, but yeah.

 7        Q.   What about this conclusion from paragraph number 3, external

 8     examinations?  Does it provide a range in decomposition, and is that your

 9     answer to Judge Wald too?

10        A.   That -- yeah, there was that range, especially in -- not so much

11     in Lazete 2A, but in 2B, yes, there was a lot of differential

12     decomposition.  There were bones.  There were bodies that were

13     semi-saponified.  There was -- there was a range, but that was because of

14     the opening of the grave.

15        Q.   If I were to tell you, Mr. Haglund, that as a physician I would

16     want to have a distinction made between a sanitisation grave and a grave

17     that was the result of an execution, does that become one of the possible

18     explanations of these differences in Lazete A and B?  So that is to say

19     burials after sanitising of the terrain, what you describe, these

20     different changes now, and on the other hand, a grave after a possible

21     execution.  Would that be one of the possible explanations as well?

22        A.   I never considered that.  I've always thought it was about the

23     same time period but that, you know, there might be a little change.  I'm

24     not sure.  That -- that I do not know.  But now with identifications

25     being made we -- we know when these people disappeared.

Page 23944

 1        Q.   Let me ask you about these identifications?

 2        A.   Let me -- let me-- let me just also say the people that went in

 3     when it was drier, they feel that that was one trench and there were

 4     piles of bodies put in and then they were covered up and then another

 5     part of the trench would be filled.  Now, I think that was probably their

 6     idea and I don't -- you've already interviewed that individual who was in

 7     charge of doing the second exhumation.  He was from Guatemala.

 8        Q.   Let us take a look at this.  This is the sequence.  There is an

 9     exhumation, bodies are handed over to Amor Masovic.  They are taken for a

10     postmortem either to Kalesija or Visoko; right?

11        A.   They -- they went -- I think at Kalesija.  It was just by -- it's

12     a short way out of Sarajevo, or next to the -- where the US Army base was

13     where we had it done, so -- and -- and then I would think that the 2002

14     would be done at -- at another facility which I had never seen, so they'd

15     actually made another -- we were working in a destroyed clothing factory

16     or -- and they -- they were able with much more funding to have a real

17     stabilised place.  That's why their -- that's why there's probably

18     difference.  I wasn't -- didn't think about that, but that's what

19     happened I'm sure.

20        Q.   What would have stopped Amor Masovic from placing on the table in

21     the meantime the corpses that he already has in Tuzla, any corpses that

22     he wanted to place on that table?

23        A.   What table would that have been?  He had no -- he had no

24     connection to our bodies till we turned them over when we were doing it

25     in 1996.  I'm not quite sure.  And then when they did the other

Page 23945

 1     autopsies, they would have done the autopsies before they released them

 2     to Masovic.  I'm not quite sure what you're trying to ask me.

 3        Q.   When was the identification carried out?  On the basis of DNA;

 4     right?

 5        A.   Some of them were done probably in the late -- more towards the

 6     late end of 1990.  Probably didn't start doing DNA, because I took the

 7     DNA samples to the United States.  It would have been -- we didn't get

 8     identifications till 1996.  Probably 1997, 1998, sort of.  These were

 9     difficult identifications.  They were done by mitochondrial DNA, which

10     is, you know, more of a problematic thing, and -- but the other

11     identifications that have been done by the group ICMP, and it's a --

12     actually a real DNA lab, they had two great big storage areas with about

13     4.000 bodies in each one, and they were -- they still are doing -- these

14     are the people -- I don't know if they're near Tuzla.  I think they're

15     near Tuzla that -- where they have their -- their laboratories and areas

16     where they do -- go over the skeletons and try to put pieces together.

17     Now they can do that with the DNA.  So I -- I -- I don't -- Masovic

18     really had nothing -- I don't know if he -- I had no idea what he was

19     involved with.  I first met him and we made a deal, or we made an

20     understanding of how these things would be transferred to the -- to the

21     Bosnians and -- but what they did, I don't know, because I didn't go back

22     there for a long time.

23        Q.   Thank you.  If I put it to you that they were identified --

24     actually, the remains of a person who died in 1982 were also identified,

25     and if I told you this, what would you say to that?  How is that

Page 23946

 1     possible?

 2        A.   Let me see.

 3        Q.   No.  This is not something that you wrote.  I'm putting this to

 4     you, and I'm telling you that a person was identified who died of natural

 5     causes in 1982, and you didn't do that, of course, what would you say to

 6     that?  What would be your comment?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Before you answer, Dr. Haglund.

 8             Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

 9             MR. MITCHELL:  Again, is this a hypothetical question or is it

10     based on the evidence in the case?  And if it is, I'd like a cite.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We will submit the exhibit when we

13     talk about ICMP findings.  I'm now just asking the witness, because he

14     was convinced that the bodies were not being manipulated when they were

15     handed over to the Bosnian government, and I'm putting it to him that a

16     person who died of natural causes in 1982 was identified as one of the

17     victims of the incident that happened in July 1995.  Did you know that?

18        A.   I'm not aware of that at all, but I know that some exhumations

19     were done in cemeteries and could have been picked up there, but I don't

20     know.  We really don't have an answer to that.  Interesting thing to

21     think about, but ...

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

23             Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

24             MR. MITCHELL:  And I think if that's the foundation of the

25     question, then we'd actually like to see that exhibit now, if possible.

Page 23947

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I intend to disclose it in a more

 3     systematised -- systematic form, and I'm now asking the witness whether

 4     he is aware of that.  I'm going to present it when we discuss ICMP

 5     findings.  I'm just asking the witness whether he was aware of such a

 6     possibility, yes or no.

 7             Can we go to the following page.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We heard the witness's answer.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   The following page.  Summary number 8 -- number 8, summary of

11     postmortem findings.

12        A.   Okay.  Summary.

13        Q.   [In English] Number 8.  [Interpretation] I'll apologise.  Let's

14     stick to bullet point 5 before we move on.  Go back to 5 for a moment,

15     please.

16             Could you discern and were you informed about the custom that

17     even Serbs and especially Muslims wore bandannas?  Could you discern

18     between a bandanna and a blindfold?  Could you discern between any piece

19     of cloth worn around the head and a blindfold?

20        A.   Well, I don't know.  I'd have to review all the clothing.  I

21     don't -- I don't recall having seen hats on any of these individuals, but

22     I -- so I couldn't answer that.  I saw things on -- blindfolds on people,

23     and then I saw other people's -- other cloth, the same kinds of cloth,

24     the same shape that, if you took the blindfold off and held it out it

25     would be the same shape.  I just assumed that they were blindfolds next

Page 23948

 1     to people.

 2        Q.   However, if the hosts had informed you of that and if they had

 3     shown you photos of combatants with pieces of cloth around their

 4     foreheads, that would have been of some help to you; right?

 5        A.   Possibly.  I don't know.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  And now can we go to bullet point 8.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Two pages further.

 8             THE WITNESS:  The pathology summary is what you're looking at, I

 9     think.  Or are we looking more in the -- in the -- I'm not sure if we're

10     looking in the report or if we're looking in the --

11             JUDGE KWON:  We have it before us, "Pathology summary."  He

12     confirmed.

13             THE WITNESS:  [Overlapping speakers] [indiscernible] what

14     document we're looking at here.  Okay.  So what -- the question is?

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Well, it says here the bodies were from Srebrenica.  Were you

17     told that or was there a way for you, yourself, to establish that they

18     were all from Srebrenica?

19        A.   Yes, through the Red Cross.  They were last seen in Srebrenica

20     alive and not after that by the people that were there.  And that was in

21     the documents usually, I think, that ICRC got.  They wanted to know where

22     the person was last seen alive, et cetera.

23        Q.   However, they were not identified at the time; right?  So you

24     were in no position to tell who was who.  Nobody was; right?

25        A.   Well, they were not different than any other graves that I

Page 23949

 1     assumed and wrote that they were part of the Srebrenica people.  That's

 2     where these people were all disappearing at the same time, and like that

 3     other information with the flyovers and things like that, we knew when

 4     the graves were made, so -- it's a good question though.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  In any case, if new bodies were added to a grave, to

 6     any grave, then the previous one underneath was already overgrown with

 7     grass; right?

 8        A.   You mean if you opened up a grave afterwards to put more people

 9     in or -- you're talking about putting more people in the grave after the

10     first grave's done and grass has grown over the top, is that what you're

11     saying?  Okay.  And you're saying that got dug up again and the grass got

12     on top of the ones previously there -- I'm not sure I quite understand.

13        Q.   In response to the Judge's question, you responded that burials

14     may have taken place at various times.  For example, if somebody buried

15     bodies in 1993 or 1994 -- 1994, could that grave already be overgrown

16     with grass by 1995, and in that case would it have been identified as an

17     undisturbed grave at that time?

18        A.   No.  You'd have to get in the grave to find out if it was a

19     disturbed grave.  You know, the grass grows very fast, and if -- if -- I

20     see -- I can't recall any of -- well, actually, the Cerska grave, there

21     was a lot of plants that had grown up.  You can tell that they were very

22     young compared to the other area outside of the grave area, but it had

23     grown up at the same time, so it was consistent with one burial.

24        Q.   Can we now look at -- for the missing body parts and can you

25     please look at the paragraph before that in your report.  It would be on

Page 23950

 1     page 58.  In e-court it would be on page 71.

 2        A.   Page 58.

 3        Q.   It sayings here that pathologist description often concerned

 4     missing body parts, but this did not say whether the grave comprised the

 5     remains of at least one bone.  Wouldn't this indicate a rather

 6     superficial approach to the task at hand to a rather not precise approach

 7     to the job?

 8        A.   Yes.  The -- I think you're saying that the pathologist would

 9     have -- of -- of -- name missing parts or body parts differently than any

10     other anthropologist did, and the anthropologist went through and got

11     them all together and looked at what the pathologist had -- had done and

12     they made it all one -- one approach, and so that they took care of that,

13     actually.  I can say that.  Last line.  And it's presented in the

14     appendix of the book.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Now can we look at page 61 of your report?  I don't

16     know what the corresponding page this would be in e-court.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Seventy-four.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Number 2, digging or disturbance of the grave and removal of the

20     body parts between primary burial and the forensic excavation.  It says

21     here:

22             "Disturbance of the grave between primary burial and final

23     exhumation process at least for shallow graves is traditionally the

24     result of scavengers or exposure of the grave due to erosion.  The

25     activities of humans may also result in loss of body parts.  Lastly,

Page 23951

 1     bones can disappear during the period of burial during -- due to

 2     diagenesis (bone deterioration)."

 3             That is your conclusion; right?

 4        A.   We didn't run into any bone deterioration in any of the graves

 5     that we were in.  I mean, the bones that were buried were in good

 6     condition for the most part.  Albeit they were fractured and things like

 7     that and -- but we did see any.  That was a general response to shallow

 8     grave question.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  You have listed all the reasons in this paragraph.

10     However, had you known that combat had taken place here and that bodies

11     were buried in different times, would you agree that sanitisation may

12     have fallen under the category "human activity"?

13        A.   Now you're talking about sanitisation, about removing remains or

14     something like that?

15        Q.   That's cleaning the former combat ground and removing casualties

16     from the site after combat.

17        A.   None of those graves that we did, that never came to my mind.

18     There were no -- I don't think that there was anything to lead me to

19     believe that had happened.

20        Q.   Did you exclude that possibility?  Is there a way to exclude such

21     a possibility?

22        A.   Are you thinking that there was a battle and parties of both

23     sides were buried in this grave?  Is that -- are you talking about that

24     or -- I'm not really sure.  Or are you talking about one battle and

25     people in it and somebody tried to remove them because they're their

Page 23952

 1     people and that was the only side that was buried?  I don't understand

 2     the -- not quite.  If you could delineate that for me a bit, clarify

 3     that.

 4        Q.   I'm going to put the Defence case to you:  During combat, the

 5     side that controls the area buries its own victims with dignity in the

 6     presence of their families, whereas the victims that had fallen on the

 7     enemy's side were buried in mass graves.  That's how we discovered 50

 8     Serb mass graves in the area that we liberated in March 1993.

 9             And now my question:  Do you know that the enemy soldiers, the

10     enemy victims that are left behind in your own territory, do you know

11     that after every combat they are buried?  And when we're talking about

12     grave disturbance due to human activity, would that be one of such human

13     activities that would lead to the disturbance of a grave?  Can you

14     exclude that as a possible cause?

15        A.   Well, I certainly don't know if every combat individual is

16     buried.  Yes.  A disturbance would certainly have -- activities would

17     lead to disturbance of a grave, but of -- I really feel confident of

18     saying these are non-combats when they have -- blindfolded and their

19     hands tied behind their backs and they're all intermixed and it happened

20     in the same kind of time period.  So, no, it -- it may pertain to some

21     situations, but it certainly wasn't any situations I was involved in the

22     graves of.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, your time is up, and I have to ask how

24     much time would you need to conclude your cross-examination.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I would be happy with an

Page 23953

 1     entire session but somehow I'm not hopeful.  I don't think you'll give me

 2     as long as that.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Dr. Haglund, let me put this on behalf of the

 4     accused whether I'm correctly representing him or not.  For the purpose

 5     of convenience, let's suppose a secondary grave.  Would you exclude a

 6     possibility that the Serbs, when the -- burying the bodies of those

 7     victims brought the -- the other bodies who died at the field,

 8     battle-field, and buried together at the same time?

 9             THE WITNESS:  Well, that's a possibility that people could be put

10     in another grave if they're --

11             JUDGE KWON:  At the same grave.

12             THE WITNESS:  At the same grave.  That's possible, yeah.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  We'll --

14             THE WITNESS:  I'm not sure it -- it deals with these particular

15     graves, but yeah -- yeah, I'm sure that people do that, yeah.  Yeah.

16             JUDGE KWON:  We'll take a break for half an hour and resume at

17     quarter to 1.00.

18             Mr. Karadzic, you will have up to half an hour to conclude.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             JUDGE KWON:  And do you have some re-examination, Mr. Mitchell?

21             MR. MITCHELL:  Not at the moment.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Then we may continue with Mr. Ruez, albeit briefly.

23             MR. MITCHELL:  Correct.  He's -- I believe he's ready.  He's here

24     and ready whenever Dr. Haglund concludes.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

Page 23954

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I hope you know how old I am,

 2     Your Honours.  It would be easier for me to continue with Mr. Haglund

 3     until the end of today's day and then continue with Mr. Ruez tomorrow.

 4     This pace is really killing me.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Let me consult my colleagues.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Time is precious.  We will continue with Mr. Ruez's

 8     evidence.

 9             Half an hour.

10                           --- Recess taken at 12.15 p.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 12.45 p.m.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.  Please continue.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Do you agree with me that in the case of graveyards in

16     Nova Kasaba, the autopsy report is somewhat lacking in terms of the

17     description of injuries and traumas?  To be more precise, only diagnosis

18     were given without any descriptions that might be verifiable and based on

19     which an expert anywhere until the world could draw the same conclusions?

20        A.   There were hundreds and hundreds of slides taken, and basically

21     the autopsy information could be looked at by somebody else and they

22     could compare those photographs with what the pathologist had to say.

23     These are not ten-page, you know, pathology reports.  These are hitting

24     the high points, what they needed.

25        Q.   However, do you agree with me that an autopsy report everywhere

Page 23955

 1     in the world should lead to the same conclusions?  An autopsy report

 2     based on a postmortem which was done by the book, descriptions based on

 3     facts and based on the scientific procedure should lead to the same

 4     conclusion by any expert anywhere in the world; right?

 5        A.   Yeah, I would think so.

 6        Q.   However, in Nova Kasaba all we see are diagnosis and not the

 7     findings; i.e., there's no description of the procedure which ultimately

 8     led to those diagnoses.

 9        A.   They put down a cause of death.  You're right.  People could look

10     at the photographs and see the -- we're talking about gunshot wounds for

11     the most part.  You can see these on the slides that we took of -- of the

12     gunshots, and they're all categorised and are here at the Tribunal.

13        Q.   However, the Defence needs to check that.  The conclusions cannot

14     be verified based on what the pathologists have provided us with.

15        A.   You'd have to take that up --

16             JUDGE KWON:  Excuse me.  I'm sorry.

17             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Mitchell.

19             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, I think it was clear before.

20     Nova Kasaba is not in the indictment, and so this line of questioning has

21     little -- little purpose.  It's obviously relevant, but there are far

22     more relevant things that could be dealt with.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  He was informed of that factor, but we cannot

24     exclude that line of questioning because it may relate to the credibility

25     of his expert report in general.  But given the limited time, I'm a bit

Page 23956

 1     disappointed, Mr. Karadzic, not to raise more direct and relevant issues

 2     with this witness.

 3             Yes, please carry on, Mr. Karadzic.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Just one more question regarding Nova Kasaba, although I don't

 6     know to what extend it's not admitted, because it's in the transcript

 7     from Krstic.

 8             Is it true that only six ligatures were tied behind the back?

 9        A.   If that says it, it's probably correct.

10        Q.   I would like to draw your attention just to a few more things

11     from the grave known as Pilica.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes?

13             MR. MITCHELL:  If we are going to deal with Nova Kasaba, then we

14     should be accurate.  The report actually says 27 of the 33 victims

15     recovered from the Nova Kasaba graves had their hands bound behind their

16     back, and that's VIII in the executive summary.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Now we are moving to Pilica.  Very well.

18             Yes, please continue, Mr. Karadzic, but be precise when --

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  I just want to say that it

20     follows from pathology findings that only 6 were tied behind the back.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   However, Mr. Haglund, did you encounter any cases where the

23     ligature is only on one hand?

24        A.   I don't recall.  I'd have to -- I'd have to look at the -- at

25     the -- the report, because it's been a long time since -- to remember all

Page 23957

 1     this.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Let us look at Pilica.  Section D.  Section D.

 3     Pilica; A, use of territory; B, distribution of remains; C, the nature

 4     and condition of remains; and D is the cover over the grave.

 5             It says --

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters would appreciate a reference.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Let us find out the proper page and then continue.

 8     What page do you have?

 9             THE WITNESS:  61.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, what page do you have in your version?

11     Are we looking at the correct page?  No.  It's Branjevo Farm.

12             Yes?  What's its P number or ...

13             MR. MITCHELL:  The 65 ter is 2452, and I think we're being

14     directed to page 61 in the hard copy.  I'm not sure what that is in

15     e-court.

16             JUDGE KWON:  We will find out.  Are you referring to this page,

17     Mr. Karadzic, "The Grave Fill"?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I believe that's it.  It is.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, page 74 in e-court.  What is your question?

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Look at the conclusions, or, rather, the bases [In English] that

22     these observations would suggest.  [Interpretation] Can you read this?

23             JUDGE KWON:  We all can read it, and what is your question,

24     Mr. Karadzic?

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 23958

 1        Q.   Does this also suggest the possibility of phased burial wherein a

 2     number of bodies was placed in the grave first and others were added

 3     later?  You should also look at the previous paragraph which mentions

 4     partial fill, partial human remains, et cetera.  Does this also indicate

 5     that burial was carried out in stages, that the grave was opened and

 6     reopened a number of times?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Well, don't -- I find it difficult to follow your

 8     question, how it follows from this passage.  Why don't you reformulate

 9     your question.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Mr. Haglund, D, the first paragraph under the sub-heading D says

12     that except for localised areas, [In English] Just a moment:

13             [As read] " ... grave filled from which partial human remains

14     were recovered and from the field directly associated with the major body

15     assemblage.  Other soil excavation -- excavated from the original grave

16     space was not permeated with the order of decomposition.  Soil -- a soil

17     sample collected from the [indiscernible] below zone was more like the

18     surface soil."

19             [Interpretation] How do you explain that this was certainly

20     unusual and that you observed it?

21             Let me try to assist you.  Let's move on to the summary of

22     possible scenarios.  Can we look for the summary of possible scenarios.

23     It's four, five pages further.

24        A.   Page 64.

25        Q.   Look at the first scenario, which says that dismemberment,

Page 23959

 1     disarticulation of individuals occurred as they were scraped off the

 2     field by machine for transportation to the grave.  Where was the

 3     execution carried out so that they had to be collected and transported?

 4        A.   Well, according to flyover, they were being shot out in a field

 5     on the road from this farm.

 6        Q.   And that's where they were buried, too; right?

 7        A.   No.  They were buried down -- down the field from that area

 8     around the corner where the grave had been dug.

 9        Q.   That very long grave that was not utilised more than 14 per cent,

10     that's the one; right?

11        A.   There was 14 per cent of the floor of the grave covered with

12     bodies.  It didn't mean -- it doesn't say that there weren't other bodies

13     in it.  There were bodies removed from it.  We know that now.

14        Q.   But you never found anywhere any trace that something else was

15     there in the other part of that grave, and you found there was no

16     evidence that something else had been there.

17        A.   I believe some of the body parts that we found were found in

18     other graves.  They made these piles, I think, now when I look at the two

19     possible scenarios and more information that I have now.  There were

20     other piles of bodies in the grave, and they were cleaned out very well.

21     They had taken everything down below the floor.  And I don't know where

22     all that dirt went, but I think they used -- that soil just went down and

23     down and down and down, and I think what they did is just filled up what

24     they took out, and they filled it up by pushing soil from the field in

25     there, fresh soil.  I just think that but I don't know for sure.

Page 23960

 1        Q.   Let us look at the rest of the first scenario.  If we could

 2     scroll down.  You say this scenario does not suggest subsequent

 3     disturbance of the grave after the first burial.  It also does not

 4     explain the additional number of victims that were allegedly killed in

 5     Pilica, nor does it explain why such a large space had been prepared for

 6     the grave.  This conclusion sounds reasonable to me.

 7             Right?  Is this conclusion consistent with what you found?

 8        A.   No.  It was consistent with the second scenario.  I did not know

 9     that at the time.

10        Q.   Ah-ha.  You know that now, but at the time you write this, you

11     didn't know that.

12        A.   That's right.  That's why I put two possible scenarios there.

13     That none of them say that it's true one way or another.  There's two

14     possible scenarios.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Can we see the second scenario.  This scenario would

16     account for recovery of a single undisturbed body assemblage and body

17     parts.  It would also explain dismemberment in presence of the kinds of

18     body parts as well as their extremely jumbled orientations in the body

19     assemblage.  It could also explain the suggestion of additional

20     disturbance at the grave site subsequent to primary burial and the

21     absence of many of the additional victims suggested to have been killed

22     at Pilica.  These are alleged to have been killed at Pilica, these

23     additional victims, or has it been established that they had been killed

24     in Pilica?

25        A.   I wouldn't know if they were all killed there.  Some of them

Page 23961

 1     were.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  And now in this summary of conclusions, which I

 3     believe is the next page, Chapter VII.  You talk again about different

 4     bases of decomposition, the interaction of many factors.  Now that we

 5     know some bodies were dismembered, that there was a surface layer and

 6     various degrees of decomposition, we cannot rule out the possibility that

 7     all the bodies, all the corpses, were buried there, too, can we?  Is that

 8     true?  Different scenarios are possible; correct?

 9        A.   I just say it's not definite -- not a definite -- that I didn't

10     have enough definite information to make this decision.

11        Q.   Thank you.  How did this misunderstanding in your team occur --

12     or, rather, this difference of opinions between you and Dr. Kirschner?

13     Who and why made the decision that Kirschner's final procedure with the

14     findings should be corrected?

15        A.   Well, I -- that was something that Dr. Kirschner did.  I have no

16     idea.  I -- I think he did it to -- to make it easier to put the

17     information out to people.  He didn't generally change much, but I -- I

18     don't know.  I never had this conversation with him.

19        Q.   Thank you.  But there was some misunderstanding, some tensions

20     occurred, and you said here in the examination-in-chief that some of

21     those tensions arose because Dr. Kirschner, as the chief pathologist,

22     finalised the findings of other pathologists and then an intervention was

23     made to change that; correct?

24        A.   I don't think there was tensions at that time, and I think the

25     people, they -- some of the pathologists actually filled out our forms,

Page 23962

 1     and then they did some of their own reports, or we never got those, but

 2     we got what they had done for our -- our needs at that time.

 3        Q.   Do you agree that in this finding about Pilica 2 you acknowledged

 4     Mr. McCloskey for his contribution in finalising the conclusions and

 5     findings?

 6        A.   I think we had this conversation already.  I don't know what else

 7     I can add to this comment.

 8        Q.   We discussed it in connection with the different graves and grave

 9     sites, and in this one, too, you acknowledge Mr. McCloskey; right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Do you stand by what you said in the Tolimir case?

12        A.   Every -- every one of these cases had to be reviewed, all of

13     these cases that we did, so I'd have the same statement in -- in each of

14     these, that McCloskey would be in there, because he did finalise -- get

15     these things finalised by going around the world.  We had to take all

16     these autopsy findings to each person that had originally wrote them.

17        Q.   I would now like to know about this misunderstanding that

18     occurred.  It did occur.  There was some objections to your work, and

19     Mr. McCloskey suggested in this case or in some other case that some of

20     your junior colleagues had complaints.  Were they really younger

21     colleagues, or were they four or five experienced professionals who

22     had --

23        A.   Experienced professionals had nothing much to say.  It was some

24     other people that -- they had worked really hard and [indiscernible] if

25     you have a hundred people that are doing things, everybody is not happy.

Page 23963

 1     So, that's fine.  They can complain.  They can do and say what they want

 2     to say.  The majority of the people had nothing to say at all but that

 3     things were done very well and these were people who were much more

 4     experienced.  So --  and oftentimes these people did very good work, so

 5     they can complain if they like.

 6        Q.   I will disregard what was not admitted in Rwanda, but did this

 7     committee, this panel conducting the investigation in San Antonio, or

 8     this inquiry, was it related to you or Dr. Kirschner?

 9        A.   It was Dr. Kirschner.  This thing was basically about

10     Dr. Kirschner but there were some of these other complaints so they

11     tossed them into this thing, which is fair.

12        Q.   These complaints about your work, weren't they at the source?

13        A.   The source of this beating in Texas with these people?  That's

14     what you're asking?  No.  It was the autopsy questions that -- and the

15     signing, the changing of -- of some of the wording of pathologists.  But

16     since there was some complaints about me, four or five out of a hundred

17     people, they tossed them in too.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, it's time to wrap up your

19     cross-examination.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Could we see 1D5021.  Are you familiar with this person,

22     C.E. Moore, C. Elliott Moore who wrote this letter?

23        A.   I know Elliott very well, yeah.

24        Q.   Do you see that he's voicing complaints against you and

25     Dr. Kirschner alike, which would suggest he's not taking either side?

Page 23964

 1        A.   Well, that's fine.

 2        Q.   Do you see all the objections he has in your case, as well as

 3     saying that Dr. Snow and others resigned from Physicians for

 4     Human Rights?  Could we see page 2.  The last box at the bottom.

 5        A.   Yeah, well they could do that if they were in a snit.  They could

 6     do that, absolutely.

 7        Q.   [No interpretation]

 8             [In English] "The removal of the remains went very fast, almost

 9     too fast.  For in some cases not all of the skeletal elements (hands and

10     feet, for example) that went with the person being removed did not get

11     into the right body bag because of crowding within the burials ...,"

12     [Interpretation] and so on.

13             [Interpretation] So we see that this is another way with regard

14     to speed and the placing of body parts into wrong bags, there could have

15     occurred an impression that they were dismembered; right?

16        A.   Well, we didn't pull feet off of the bodies to put them in bags.

17     There were extra feet, and if they -- when they got to the autopsy area,

18     that was sorted out.  So I'm not aware of this particular one.  I don't

19     recall it, but ...

20        Q.   Can we have the next page.  Look at the top:

21             [In English]"These may account for the non-associated hands and

22     feet as well as other skeletal elements that were recovered later in the

23     excavation.  Agree with C.C. Snow ... that on a good day, only 20 bodies

24     should be removed at that time a time."

25             [Interpretation] How many bodies were removed from these graves

Page 23965

 1     on a daily basis?

 2        A.   Well, I'd have to look at it.  I have every one -- every report

 3     has the numbers of bodies released, taken out every day.  So I can't

 4     remember all these.  It was many, many days.

 5        Q.   Can we have a look at what it says down there.  Can we actually

 6     look at the bottom of the page.  We don't really have much time, so let's

 7     see the bottom of the page.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  I said you had half an hour and then you reserve

 9     this question to the last moment.  Come to your last question.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   So do you see this here:

12             [In English] Why was the San Antonio inquiry done in the first

13     place?"

14             [Interpretation] Do you see that?

15        A.   Where is this now?  I'm --

16        Q.   The last box on this page.

17             [In English] "Why was the San Antonio inquiry done in the first

18     place?"

19        A.   Is this the -- is this the inquiry itself or is that in my report

20     or what?  Where is it?

21             JUDGE KWON:  He introduced -- this is a letter from Dr. Moore,

22     the second to one of the attorneys, Defence attorneys, at the Tribunal

23     whose name is Meek and Ostojic.  Would you like to see the first page

24     [overlapping speakers]

25             THE WITNESS:  [Overlapping speakers] Yeah, I would like that --

Page 23966

 1             JUDGE KWON:  This was shown to you but probably you didn't see.

 2     It is not part of your report.

 3             THE WITNESS:  Yeah, okay.  That's -- I was confused.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Why don't we show the first page to the doctor.

 5     This was shown to you when Mr. Karadzic asked you about Dr. Moore in the

 6     second.

 7             THE WITNESS:  Oh, yes, okay.  And this is in part of their

 8     report, I see.  Okay.  Okay.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Do you see this that on the last page some experts established

11     that this was a case of sloppy science, and that was said in relation to

12     this work in Bosnia.  Could you please have the last page displayed

13     because we don't have time.  Namely Dr. Snow established [In English]

14     meant by sloppy science.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

16             THE WITNESS:  That's his opinion.  He wasn't there.  And the

17     people -- some of the people that complained, complained to him.  That's

18     the way things were.  There weren't that many complaints.  And it wasn't

19     sloppy.  If you read this whole thing here, they say under the conditions

20     we were working on, it was pretty much very good.  To read the whole

21     thing that they wrote in Texas.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

23             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, I just want to clarify.  It may

24     have been a translation error, but what Mr. Karadzic put that experts had

25     established that this was a case of sloppy science whether --

Page 23967

 1             JUDGE KWON:  We can read this document.

 2             MR. MITCHELL:  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Your last question, Mr. Karadzic.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Mr. Haglund, can we take it this way, that what you testified in

 6     the Tolimir case also reflects your position.

 7        A.   I would assume so.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, since I don't

 9     have enough time, may I tender the Tolimir transcript, at least the

10     cross-examination, if not the entire transcript?  You will find it

11     useful, because the Trial Chamber put quite a few questions as well.

12             JUDGE KWON:  My answer is no, but I have to consult my

13     colleagues, but in order to put -- tender that part, you should have

14     shown to the witness or asked the same question.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But the witness said that he

17     assumes that what he said was correct.  He accepted that to be his own

18     statement.

19             JUDGE KWON:  That's not a proper way to admit the transcript.

20             Yes, Mr. --

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I tender this last document

22     now?

23             JUDGE KWON:  No.  Call Dr. Moore, Mr. Karadzic.

24             Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

25             MR. MITCHELL:  I don't have any questions, Mr. President, but I

Page 23968

 1     would like to tender the San Antonio report.  I overlooked that during my

 2     direct examination.  That was --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Was it not tendered?

 4             MR. MITCHELL:  No.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  No position.  That will be admitted.

 6             MR. MITCHELL:  Thank you.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P4338, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Well, that concludes your evidence,

 9     Dr. Haglund.  On behalf of my colleagues and the Tribunal, I'd like to

10     thank you for your coming to The Hague again to give it.

11             THE WITNESS:  Thank you very much.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Now you're free to go.

13             THE WITNESS:  Okay.  Fine.  And I appreciated your questions.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Haglund.

15                           [The witness withdrew]

16             JUDGE KWON:  I take it Mr. Ruez is waiting, or is it practicable

17     to continue with Mr. Ruez, Mr. Mitchell?

18             MR. MITCHELL:  He's here --

19             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

20             MR. MITCHELL:  -- I'm told, so he's available.

21             JUDGE KWON:  While he's being brought in, the Chamber will issue

22     a brief oral ruling.  In the meantime, let's bring in the witness.

23             The Chamber will now issue an oral ruling.

24             On 17th of January, 2012, during the testimony of

25     Witness Pyers Tucker, the Chamber admitted associated exhibit at P4230, a

Page 23969

 1     summary of three intercepted conversation from March 1993, between,

 2     number one, General Mladic and the accused; number two, Vinko Pandurevic

 3     and General Milovanovic; and number three General Mladic and

 4     Vinko Pandurevic.  In the relevant portion of his amalgamated statements

 5     discussing Exhibit P4230, Mr. Tucker says "I have been told this is the

 6     record of three conversations produced by Croatian intelligence services"

 7     and then proceeds to discuss how the intercepted conversation relate to a

 8     meeting he had on the 11th of March, 1993, with General Morillon,

 9     Branko Grujic and Vinko Pandurevic.

10             The Chamber recalls its previous rulings that intercepts are a

11     special category of evidence which, before being admitted, requires

12     further evidence about their authenticity and reliability from sources

13     such as the relevant intercept operator or a participant in the

14     intercepted conversation.  The Chamber considers that summaries of

15     intercepts such as those in P4230 fall into the same category and

16     therefore that Exhibit P4230 was not sufficiently authenticated for it to

17     be admitted through Pyers Tucker.  The Chamber thus reconsiders its

18     decision of 17th of January, 2012, to admit P4230 and orders that the

19     documents be marked for identification as MFI P4230.

20                           [The witness takes the stand]

21             JUDGE KWON:  My apologies, Mr. Ruez, for your inconvenience.  For

22     the remainder of today's session of, i.e., 15 minutes, we'll hear some

23     part of -- the introductory part of Mr. Karadzic's cross-examination.

24                           WITNESS:  JEAN-RENE RUEZ [Resumed]

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

Page 23970

 1                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Ruez.

 3        A.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  This rudimentary knowledge of the Serbian language,

 5     is that thanks to some special connection with Serbs and Serbian women,

 6     more particularly?

 7        A.   No.  In fact, "dobar dan" is probably the only word I learned

 8     during my six years of mission in Bosnia and Republika Srpska.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  For starters, let me ask you -- actually, I'll be

10     going to and fro because my time is short.

11             You said that on the basis of photographs, aerial images, that

12     is, it was concluded that something had been tampered with or not; right?

13        A.   This is right.

14        Q.   And now from this exhibit, and I forget the number, could we get

15     this aerial image 242?

16             JUDGE KWON:  Can you -- in Mr. Ruez's book.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Mr. Ruez, does this give enough reason to conclude that between

20     the 7th and 27th of September something had happened there?

21        A.   Yes, absolutely.

22        Q.   In your view, which part had been tampered with, the one that

23     runs parallel to this line?

24             JUDGE KWON:  Well, we can ask the witness to mark on the image.

25     Yes.

Page 23971

 1             THE WITNESS:  It is the entire size of the primary mass grave

 2     that is seen being disturbed on this photograph.  If we compare the left

 3     one with the right one, you can see that the lines or the stripes here on

 4     the photograph are not the same than these ones, but the most specific

 5     thing is that you have this little -- little pile here that is the push

 6     of the heavy equipment which is not visible on the left part.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Thank you.  None of the rest had been touched; right?

 9        A.   It -- it might have been touched, since when heavy equipment

10     rolls over the surface it leaves also some traces.

11        Q.   Is this the same angle?

12        A.   Yes, it is.

13        Q.   Is the lighting the same?  Were the weather conditions the same?

14        A.   I could not say.

15        Q.   Thank you.  What about the structure on the left-hand photograph?

16     Is it different from -- I mean, the overall surface on the left-hand

17     photograph, is it the same or is it somewhat different in relation to the

18     one on the right-hand photograph, namely the parts that had not been

19     tampered with?

20        A.   The fact is that when we say the angle is more or less the same,

21     it's not exactly the same.  These type of platforms don't necessarily

22     overfly an area with the same angle.  So indeed the line of vegetation at

23     the left is slightly different.

24        Q.   What about the structure of the surface on the left hand?  Does

25     it not look different, the overall surface and its structure when you

Page 23972

 1     compare it to the one on the right?

 2        A.   Yes, it is.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?  Although

 5     it's already been admitted but its been marked.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  We'll admit it as the next Defence exhibit.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 2045, Your Honours.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Can we look at picture number 177.  Was this your first mission

11     in April 1996?

12        A.   Yes, it was.

13        Q.   This bone collection, was it collected from the surface or had it

14     been dug out?

15        A.   The collection was made on the surface.

16        Q.   And the things that look darker, were they not dug out?  Was all

17     of this simply found on the surface?

18        A.   All what is on this picture was found on the surface.

19        Q.   Thank you.  What else was included in your first mission in

20     April 1996?

21        A.   The list was quite long, but do you mean during the entire

22     mission or only during the moment we went at the -- at the dam?

23        Q.   The entire visit to Bosnia in April 1996.  How did it come about?

24     What was its objective?  What were its goals, and what are the goals that

25     were achieved?

Page 23973

 1        A.   Okay.  The -- the goal of the April mission was purely dedicated

 2     to locate and have a first look at the most important places that we

 3     could attempt to spot thanks to the information coming from the witness

 4     statements that we took during the summer 1995.  So it included the -- to

 5     go to the Orahovac area both at the school and at the execution sites.

 6     It included the dam.

 7        Q.   Could I please ask you to pause at this point, because I'd like

 8     to divide this question up because I put three questions in one.  There

 9     was a visit to Bosnia in April in 1996.  Who decided that this visit

10     should take place?

11        A.   I did prepare and organise the entire mission of 1990 -- of April

12     1995, as I did for all the missions we conducted in Bosnia, but mainly in

13     Republika Srpska.

14        Q.   Thank you.  At that point in time, what was your job?  What was

15     your position?

16        A.   At that time, I had the position of an investigator.  There was

17     no specific team dedicated to the Srebrenica investigation.

18        Q.   Where were you an investigator?  Where were you employed?

19        A.   I was employed at the OTP, the Office of the Prosecutor.

20        Q.   From when?

21        A.   I started to work at the OTP 7 of April, 1995.

22        Q.   Thank you.  And who gave you this task, or did you, yourself,

23     have this freedom to seek your own missions, if you will?

24        A.   In a way I had the freedom to select whatever mission.  I was

25     informed of this one by another employee at the OTP whose name is

Page 23974

 1     Jean-Pierre Gejjy, Golf-Echo-Juliette-Juliette-Yankee, and who informed

 2     me about this mission following a meeting he had at the -- with the

 3     Prosecutor and the main assistants of the Prosecutor.

 4        Q.   And that was an official mission; right?

 5        A.   Like all the missions we conducted in any -- in any case.

 6        Q.   Were there also people who came and who were not on a mission

 7     from the OTP or who were not employed by the OTP?

 8        A.   No.  For the first mission I left with one investigator from

 9     another team, one interpreter.  We received the assistance on the spot of

10     a second interpreter, and later in August, another investigator came.  So

11     we were in fact three people during the summer 1995 on the ground in the

12     Tuzla area to start the -- the collection of statements among the 25.000

13     refugees who were in this zone.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Can we briefly take a look at 188 from this album,

15     and then I'll be done.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Could you please tell the Chamber what this thickest blue/grey

19     line is that separates Nezuk from Petkovci, for instance, to the best of

20     your knowledge?

21        A.   The grey line symbolises the location of the confrontation area.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Given the proceeding which will take place after

23     this, we will adjourn for today.  We continue tomorrow at 9.00.  Thank

24     you for your understanding.

25             The hearing is adjourned.

Page 23975

 1                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,

 2                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 1st day

 3                           of February, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.