Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 24051

 1                           Thursday, 2 February 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.10 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.  I apologise for the delay.

 7     There was some problem.

 8             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.  Good

10     morning, Your Excellencies.  Good morning to all.

11                           WITNESS:  JEAN-RENE RUEZ [Resumed]

12                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:  [Continued]

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Ruez.  Please help us

14     understand a few more facts and shed light on them.  In the transcript of

15     January 26, on page 23709, from lines 1 through 5, you said:

16              [In English] "I was initially in a team investigating the siege

17     of Sarajevo, and in July 1995, as soon as the enclave fell, I was tasked

18     to go in the area and start investigation that was connected with the

19     press rumours about the disappearance of thousands of men, and I never

20     stopped working on this investigation till my departure in April 19 --

21     2001."

22             [Interpretation] So you investigated Sarajevo before the fall of

23     Srebrenica, and you were there before the fall of Srebrenica; isn't that

24     right?

25        A.   Not exactly right.  I was in the team investigating Sarajevo, but

Page 24052

 1     we did not go in the field to conduct any investigation, as long as -- as

 2     far as I am concerned, before the month of October or November 1995 where

 3     I was during three weeks not working on the Srebrenica case since I was

 4     with the Sarajevo team in Sarajevo.

 5        Q.   On page 23977, from 19 through 25, you say:

 6             "The goal of the investigation I was in charge of was to

 7     determine the fate of some 8.000 missing after the fall of UN safe area

 8     Srebrenica.  Therefore, the investigation, that is to say started 11th of

 9     July, 12.00, approximately 12.00.  Knowing about the general frame of the

10     war, its causes and all the rest, it is indeed something helpful in order

11     to have what one can tell the big picture, but it was certainly not any

12     of the goals of the specific investigation."

13        A.   Yes, that is correct with one additional precision is that at the

14     time, the precise number was not known.  This number came once the ICRC

15     book on all the missing -- missing persons from former Yugoslavia went

16     out, and this number of 8.000 was then determined since it was the rough

17     number of those declared missing from precisely the July 1995 event.  For

18     the rest, I don't feel the need to change anything.

19        Q.   [Interpretation] But the investigation started on the 11th of

20     July.  That remains.  How many times was this figure changed?  How many

21     duplicates were there, that Red Cross list, and how many corrections were

22     made to that effect?

23        A.   Regarding the bit about investigations started on 11th July, I

24     already provided previously an answer on this, so I have to repeat.  It's

25     not that the investigation started on 11th July.  The investigation --

Page 24053

 1     the starting points of the events under investigation are the events that

 2     started from 11th July and all the dates after 11th July.  So in this

 3     case, mainly between 11th July and 17 July.  This is the -- the -- these

 4     are the dates of the -- of the events under investigation, knowing that

 5     the end date 7 July is a date that we learned only later on, because the

 6     17th of July is the end of the burial process of the people who had been

 7     executed on the location determined by the investigation.

 8             For the rest, you had some questions.  Let me return to them.

 9             Yeah, the book of the Red Cross, the ICRC book.  I don't know how

10     many -- how many of these -- of this list how many samples have been

11     spread.  I have no idea.  How many times it might have changed, I don't

12     know if there has been any change later on.  We had an expert of -- in

13     demography who testified during the trial of Krstic.  He would be the one

14     who could provide all the details about the list of those declared

15     missing from July 1995.  Yes, this is it.

16        Q.   Thank you.  So on page 23977, what it says there would not be

17     correct, right, what it says between lines 19 and 25, namely that the

18     investigation started at midday on the 11th of July; right?

19        A.   No.  Again, what I said is that I arrived together with one

20     additional investigator in Tuzla area.  I think it was 20 July.  So this

21     is the starting date of the investigation, but the events under

22     investigation are the events that happened in the enclave at -- starting

23     at 11th July around 12.00 -- around 12.00 being the bombing that

24     sparkled, in fact, the flight of the population since they realised there

25     would be no air-strikes.  So this is the starting point.

Page 24054

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you.  Tell us, please, who was the chief

 2     investigator of the UN from the very beginning?

 3        A.   What do you mean chief investigator of the UN?

 4        Q.   Were you the chief investigator at that point in time?  Was

 5     somebody else the chief investigator before you?

 6        A.   No.  I have started the investigation as an investigation -- as

 7     an investigator who was part of another team, but all the other members

 8     of that team continued their work on Sarajevo.  So I was the only

 9     permanent member of this non-existing team.  For a while I was assisted

10     by colleagues who were in other teams but who, to help me during specific

11     missions, went with me during these missions, then returned after the

12     mission to their usual activity, and the team started to look a little

13     bit as a real team.  At the end of the year 1996 when after one and a

14     half year, at least a legal advisor was tasked to assist me in this

15     activity.  And also beginning of 1996, one investigator was detached from

16     his team to assist me also full time, and later, I don't remember what

17     date that was, I turned from investigator to -- to team leader.  So that

18     was the beginning of the real team for Srebrenica.  That was in -- that

19     was in 1997, I think.  Before that there was no -- no dedicated team for

20     the Srebrenica case within the OTP.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us when these rumours started, when you

22     heard them for the first time, the rumours that had to be checked then?

23        A.   I call these rumours because they were not based on -- on

24     facts -- I mean facts.  They were based on testimonies collected by

25     journalists, but there was not at the very beginning possibility of

Page 24055

 1     corroboration.  This is why I named these things rumours, but it was

 2     press articles in several if not all the newspapers at that -- at that

 3     time, that due to the experience some of these journalists had from

 4     Vukovar to Srebrenica, they had a personal opinion that these missing

 5     persons were not somewhere in detention.  This is what the families of

 6     these victims believed until -- until at least mid-2006 but that they --

 7     these persons were most certainly dead.

 8        Q.   When was it the first time that you heard this information or

 9     rumours?  When was the first time that you, as a team -- or, rather, the

10     UN was intrigued by this figure of 8.000?  If it wasn't on the 11th of

11     July at midday, 12.00, as you said on page 23977, when was it then?

12        A.   For sure it couldn't be on the 11th.  When, I could not say.  I

13     don't have the souvenir of this press articles, but it was in the

14     following date.  It was most certainly as soon as the people arrived, so

15     as soon as the 16th the decision to send someone there was done very

16     quickly.

17             No, I'm wrong, because -- no, it's after the -- it should be the

18     14, once the final evacuation was conducted and the people already

19     arrived in Bosnian-held territory.  Anyhow, around these dates.

20        Q.   Did you hear that these rumours started in 1993?  Or more

21     specifically, are you aware of the fact that Izetbegovic disclosed to his

22     associates that Clinton had said to him that NATO could not go to war

23     unless the Serbs were to enter Srebrenica and slaughter 5.000 Muslims?

24     His associate said that they did not want to sacrifice 5.000 Muslims.

25     Were you aware of the fact that this story goes back to 1993?

Page 24056

 1        A.   Not at all.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  All right.  Do you know the name of Tim Butcher?

 3        A.   Never heard.

 4        Q.   On the 24th of July, were you in Tuzla?

 5        A.   Yes, I was.

 6        Q.   I hope that we're going to get the text by the end of the

 7     examination.  Please take a look at what Tim Butcher wrote from Tuzla in

 8     his newspaper, the "Daily Telegraph" on the 24th of July:

 9              [In English] "After five days of interviews, the United Nations

10     chief investigator into alleged human rights abuses during the fall of

11     Srebrenica has not found any first-hand witnesses of atrocities."

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

13             MR. MITCHELL:  If Mr. Karadzic is reading from the article, maybe

14     we could get it and put it on the ELMO so that we can all see it.

15             JUDGE KWON:  My assumption was that he didn't get it so far, but

16     do you have a copy of that article, Mr. Karadzic?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You're right.  Our team is trying

18     to get a hold of that article and download it, and I believe we'll

19     receive it.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   I would like to know who the chief UN investigator was in Tuzla

22     on the 24th of July.  Was it you?

23        A.   Yes, it was me.

24        Q.   Is his report correct, namely that on the 24th of July, there are

25     no first-hand witnesses?

Page 24057

 1        A.   No, his report is uncorrect for the simple reason that though we

 2     had indeed already accessed interesting -- very interesting witnesses by

 3     then, I would never have told that to this journalist whose name I -- I

 4     don't know and I probably maybe even never met.  I don't know if he says

 5     that he met me when I said that, but it's his -- his assessment that at

 6     that time we had no witnesses.

 7             There were several reports from some journalists reporting about

 8     even the missions we were doing later in 1996 and who were writing things

 9     that had more or less nothing to do with what we were doing.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know the name of Hubert Wieland?

11        A.   No, I don't know this name.

12        Q.   You don't know that he was the personal representative of the

13     High Commissioner for Human Rights and that he was present in Tuzla at

14     the time?  You were not aware of his presence or of his team?  And you

15     didn't know that he was doing something over there, too; right?

16        A.   No, I was not.  And -- I was not.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Once we've received the text, we're going to see what

18     it says there.  Do you agree -- actually, do you agree, did you know that

19     the High Commissioner for Human Rights sent a mission there?

20        A.   No.  The High Commissioner for Human Rights has a specific

21     mission.  The ICTY has another mission, and I was not connected with this

22     High Commissioner.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Tell me, please.  This is what I'd be interested in.

24     How did this happen -- or, rather, what happened with this figure, these

25     figures, because that is of crucial importance here, the numbers game.

Page 24058

 1     How did this figure change?  On the 24th of July, the High Commissioner

 2     for Human Rights and his representative do not have this information, and

 3     they say that they talked to a vast number of refugees who arrived in

 4     Tuzla.

 5        A.   I'm sorry, I missed maybe something.  I don't see any -- what

 6     should I do now?  What number should I comment?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

 8             MR. MITCHELL:  I also don't see any basis for the suggestion that

 9     the High Commissioner for Human Rights didn't have this information.  I

10     think Mr. Karadzic simply asked if Mr. Ruez knew who this person was.  I

11     think if there's going to be any more questions along this line, we

12     should see the article that he's referring to.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.  Please reformulate your

14     question.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Independently of Mr. Wieland and the High Commissioner for

17     Human Rights who was in Tuzla at the same time and asking questions of

18     the same persons that the OTP was questioning, from those first rumours

19     onwards, how did this number of victims in Srebrenica change?  You can

20     tell us this:  Where does this first information originate from, the

21     first figure of victims in Srebrenica?

22             And you talk about newspapers too.  Were they your source of

23     information or was it the other way round.  Were you and your

24     Prosecutions, the Office of the Prosecutor, their source of information?

25        A.   Okay.  Two questions in here, one being the base number, the ICRC

Page 24059

 1     book of missing persons.  I think it could be quite easy to find from the

 2     ICRC when this book came out with these figures.  As I corrected, when I

 3     talk now from at that time these 8.000, this number was not out by then.

 4     It came out much later.  At that time there was no figure.  It was

 5     thousands of people -- of men were missing.  Thousands of men were

 6     missing, but how many thousands was not known by then.

 7             The other question is if the journalists or the Office of the

 8     Prosecutor informed the other one or all together, the answer is very

 9     simple.  We did never inform the press about anything, but -- and it is

10     at the honour of the press -- I named sometimes the press, due to the

11     lack of investigators in the team, the additional investigation task

12     force.  The reason is that not only did some journalist directly come to

13     us in order to provide information, but also we systematically checked

14     during the -- these years the articles they were writing, because some of

15     them were writing things obviously based on interesting witnesses,

16     systematically adding Witness X who has never been interviewed by the

17     ICTY and reporting important information.  So in that case we would

18     systematically try to get in contact with the witness in order to check

19     if the journalistic view of the declarations of this witness were correct

20     or if they were not.  So all this was a -- I mean, any valid source of

21     information was to be checked at that time.

22        Q.   Thank you.  In the transcript of February 1st, that is to say

23     yesterday, 23998 is the page reference, it says:

24               [In English] [As read] "You mentioned during your testimony

25     that Drazen Erdemovic provides the assessment figure related to Branjevo

Page 24060

 1     Farm.  Do you think that Drazen Erdemovic is reliable and valuable source

 2     for information for what happening -- what was happening in Srebrenica

 3     and who can help D.C. in better understanding of this incident that

 4     occurred there?"

 5             [Interpretation] What is your position?

 6        A.   Position is simple.  Regarding the figure of 1.200, it is

 7     impossible to rely on anyone who would make such an assessment.  The only

 8     option possible is to here, like in many other instances, not only to

 9     exhume the primary grave - this has been done - but also to exhume the

10     nine graves in Cancari valley that we believe are connected with the

11     disturbance of the primary site.  I don't know if yet this is done and

12     the connection's all finalised.  That's the only way to ascertain.  And

13     from there it would also, in addition, not be possible to have a full

14     certainty since the bodies of those who have been slaughtered at the

15     Pilica Dom of Culture have also been transported the day after to the

16     main mass grave of Branjevo Farm.  So the assessment there is 500.  It's

17     done by, in brackets, a serious security officer of the Drina Corps.

18     This one might be a bit more reliable, but again, it's most probably an

19     estimate.  So all these figures out of the exhumation process cannot be

20     considered reliable by no one.  This is a clear fact.

21             There was another question in your -- okay.  I think -- I think I

22     answered.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that the Defence cannot cross-examine

24     Erdemovic, and his statement has been admitted under 92 bis?  You would

25     rather examine him, wouldn't you?  You would not consider him to be fully

Page 24061

 1     credible; right?

 2        A.   Yes, I --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  No.  No.  You don't have to answer the question.

 4             THE WITNESS:  Only corroboration of this -- okay.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Thank you.  When it comes to mass graves, was -- were photos

 7     taken of all of the mass graves together with the bodies that were

 8     discovered in them?

 9        A.   This is something that will have to be covered by both

10     William Haglund and Richard Wright.  I was not -- I had not the

11     possibility to be even once present in 1996 for the full exhumations

12     conducted William Haglund, because meanwhile he was conducting his

13     activities, I was continuously trying to find other sites, but there was

14     on several occasions present during the exhumations conducted by

15     Richard Wright.  And what I saw from it is that indeed absolutely

16     everything was not only photographed but there were films at the end of

17     the day, at the beginning of the day in order to assert nothing had been

18     tampered with during the night.  The sites were also, as in 1996, guarded

19     by military forces.  So I think you will be overwhelmed with photographic

20     documents of all these human remains at the morgue, at the sites, and

21     everything.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Can you try and remember the photo with the highest

23     number of bodies in it?  Which photo contained the highest number of

24     bodies?  Can you remember such a photo?

25        A.   I didn't see all the photos of all the sites that were exhumed.

Page 24062

 1     The sites that contained the most bodies, I think, were secondary graves

 2     with, for some, more than 200 bodies in it.  So -- but I didn't go on

 3     this exhumation.  I would not be able to say.

 4        Q.   However, you had all the photos at your disposal.  All the photo

 5     material was at your disposal; right?  And what was the highest number of

 6     bodies that you count -- that you could count in any single photo?

 7        A.   It's true that I could have accessed all this photographic

 8     material, but I didn't spend, in fact, lose my time going through all

 9     this material since expert -- experts were doing this.  They didn't need

10     at all my assistance, and I had no -- I was not particularly keen to

11     spend my days watching all these things.

12             What I can add to the previous thing is that since I was

13     systematically among the first ones who did the first dig in all these

14     sites, I also took photos of every single of these sites before they were

15     exhumed by the ICTY.

16        Q.   Very well.  However, Mr. Ruez, do you agree with me that 500

17     bodies in one place in a mass grave is a good photo opportunity for any

18     photographer?  How come that in your book there is no single photo

19     depicting over 20 bodies?  Where are all those very impressive photos

20     that were taken?

21             JUDGE MORRISON:  Well, Dr. Karadzic, first of all that supposes

22     that such photographs were taken.  And secondly, it supposes that this

23     witness can go into the mind of the photographer and analyse which

24     photographs they chose to take and which they didn't.  It seems to me

25     you're asking an impossible question again.

Page 24063

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, with all due

 2     respect, the witness said that photos were taken of everything.  If there

 3     is complete photo material, I want to see a photo depicting hundreds of

 4     bodies in one grave.

 5             THE WITNESS:  Although I'm not the one who led these exhumations,

 6     I can provide you a beginning of an answer that will be more developed by

 7     Richard Wright.  The way the exhumation teams operate is that they start

 8     with the top of the grave and then piece by piece discovered since all

 9     these remains are intertwined because they first went through inhumation,

10     burial by heavy equipment, then were dug out by heavy equipment.  So many

11     bodies, you know, were cut in pieces, then loaded on board of trucks,

12     then unloaded and dumped in other big holes.  All this is a mixture of

13     intertwined arms, legs, and so on, so it takes quite a while for the

14     exhumation team to sort out all this and put them in body bags in order

15     to then be matched piece by piece like a puzzle.  All this takes time.

16     And after human remains, the mass grave is slowly emptied until they

17     reach the bottom of it.  So it is more or less technically totally

18     impossible to have a full picture of the entire content of such a grave.

19             What we did in Cancari 12, I did explain it when we showed you

20     the photograph.  The film was not shown, but there is a full film that I

21     took on that spot.  It was not for court purpose when I took it.  It was

22     for education of the incoming exhumators in order to show them the entire

23     process, the security aspect, the logistical aspect, and so on.

24             So on this particular spot I wished to have what you wish now to

25     see, that is indeed a picture of the entire surface of such a grave,

Page 24064

 1     which is not necessarily what was done on the other sites.  So this one

 2     was indeed done specifically for the sake of showing how such a surface

 3     of grave looks like, but it's not the, in brackets, archaeological method

 4     that is in place for these exhumations.  Richard Wright will provide you

 5     all -- all information you need or you wish to know about all these

 6     details.

 7        Q.   Can we now look at image 66 in Mr. Ruez's book.  Thank you.

 8             Mr. Ruez, would this have been a customary way of discovering

 9     bodies and revealing bodies, removing the topsoil before the bodies were

10     recovered?

11        A.   So let me explain you this photograph.  At the left you have a

12     crime scene technician of the OTP.  His name is John Gerns.  I am the one

13     at the right of the picture.  This site is a site that we did not present

14     during the Prosecution phase because this one is, I was told, not part of

15     your indictment, but never mind, I can explain you the method.

16             So this is a Nova Kasaba site.  On this spot we had no

17     archaeologist with us, no forensic expert.  What we did, having learned

18     from the method used by William Haglund during previous missions, the

19     technique on this is indeed to find out what I said, that is multiple

20     remains.  If we find only one part of body or bodies it is not enough.

21     It can be only one grave.  We cannot do an exhumation process based on

22     one body, so we need to show multiple bodies.  So indeed we determined

23     the perimeter of the top of the grave knowing this area from obvious

24     signs like vegetation, for example, on the site.  Grass is growing much

25     quicker thanks to the natural fertiliser in which these men have been

Page 24065

 1     transformed into.

 2             You open the top.  As soon as you begin to find something, you

 3     continue the work with your hands.  So you give what I named the

 4     postmortem massage to the bodies, and you end up finding indeed where is

 5     the head, not confuse shoulders with the behind, taking care, not pushing

 6     too hard on the belly because things could spray at your face and fancy

 7     things like, and I don't describe you also the smell to which you get

 8     accustomed quite quickly.

 9             And once you have underlined the surface of this -- such a grave,

10     this one obviously --

11        Q.   Mr. Ruez --

12             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, no, don't interrupt.  You asked the

13     question.  Please continue, Mr. Ruez.

14             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  A question deserves an answer, as we say.

15             On this one, specifically, we showed the presence of six bodies

16     on this one wearing civilian clothes, hands attached in the back with

17     wire and things like this.  But this one was then later fully exhumed.

18     There were, I think, less than 100 bodies in this one connected with an

19     execution that happened on the meadow in front.  And these ones, the

20     first one in the grave were shot inside the grave.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Thank you.  My time is restricted, so let us focus on the

23     question.  I asked you whether this is how bodies are revealed before

24     they are recovered and removed from the site, and when they are displayed

25     in this way, are photos of the bodies taken?

Page 24066

 1        A.   This one is a primary grave.  It has not been disturbed because

 2     of the, in bracket, little number of bodies in it.  So no use to disturb

 3     such a site, apparently.  So these bodies are complete bodies, though in

 4     the secondary sites it's many -- many are bodies parts.  This is what you

 5     want to know.  Yes.

 6             And after this, we recovered the bodies with the soil we took out

 7     until the full exhumation of the site was conducted.  We didn't take

 8     anybody out of this -- this grave.  This was just to show the presence of

 9     multiple remains.

10        Q.   A little while ago, you told us that there were six bodies in

11     this grave, and all I can see are four bodies.  What about the other two?

12     Where are they?  Where do you see them?

13        A.   On this photograph you have six bodies, but you cannot see

14     because -- you can only see clearly four, because in fact they are on top

15     each of another.  There are additional pictures of this site that we

16     could show, but again this presentation of this site was not done because

17     it's not part of your indictment.

18        Q.   I believe that it is, Mr. Ruez.  However, it was not meant to be

19     presented through you.  Never mind that.  What about these other bodies

20     that you found?  Are they deeper in the grave?  Where are they?

21        A.   Richard Wright is the one who fully exhumed this site.  It's

22     fully documented.  No, it's not Richard Wright.  It's -- hmm.  I don't

23     know.  Anyhow, the person who was the -- who exhumed it will evidence --

24     fully document it.  You will ask him these questions about the set-up of

25     the grave.  All the bodies are positioned during these exhumations with

Page 24067

 1     technical devices.  You will see all this when the time will come to --

 2     to show these things.  I don't know if it already happened or if it will

 3     happen, but I'm not the expert for discussing the content of the graves.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  However, the fact is that we are searching for the

 5     alleged thousands of executed men.  I insist on the photos being shown to

 6     me.  I want to count them, but you can't do that.  Very well.  Never

 7     mind.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

 9             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, this is completely disingenuous.

10     Mr. Karadzic has hundreds, if not thousands, of photos that have been

11     disclosed to him, and --

12             JUDGE KWON:  And he didn't put that question when

13     Professor Wright was here.

14             MR. MITCHELL:  That's correct.  And he should also recall that we

15     actually played the entire video of Cancari 12.  There were photos shown

16     of the Kozluk side.  There are photos of Branjevo in Mr. Ruez's report.

17     I think this whole line of questioning is a waste of time.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Absolutely, yes, Mr. Mitchell.  Thank you.

19             Mr. Karadzic.  Yes, please continue then.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we knew look at photo 246, the

21     one depicting Branjevo.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   You're familiar with this photo; right?  There is no doubt that

24     what we can see are the remains of human bodies in a state of disarray.

25     How many bodies would you say are depicted in this photo approximately?

Page 24068

 1        A.   From the exhumation report, I cannot count.  I never tried to

 2     count this, how many bodies are on the surface of this stack because it's

 3     a stack, so we can really see the surface.  If I remember well, it's 110

 4     bodies that were found in one small portion of the disturbed grave of the

 5     Branjevo Farm.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Tell me, please, before I forget, you testified about

 7     Kravica.  On which one -- which side of the road is the Kravica farm

 8     building as you drive from --

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Karadzic repeat the names of the

10     places.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Could you repeat the direction.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   As you drive from Konjevic Polje towards Bratunac via Kravica, on

14     what side of the road is the farm building?

15        A.   Okay.  Let's make it clear that we are completely away from

16     Branjevo, because we were at the Branjevo Farm.  Now we are at -- at

17     60 kilometres south back to Kravica.  Am I correct?

18        Q.   Yes, you're correct.  I'm just interested in the side of the road

19     where that building is.

20        A.   Okay.  Driving from the intersection of Konjevic Polje towards

21     Bratunac, the building is on the right side of the road.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know how many people were detained at the

23     Nova Kasaba stadium?

24        A.   I don't know, and it would be extremely difficult to know,

25     because at the stadium, as in other places, people were coming in, groups

Page 24069

 1     then were moved out, and this process lasted.  So whatever photograph we

 2     could have would only be an instant photograph.  Even if we had the

 3     ability to count those seen on these instant shots, it's just an instant

 4     shot.  It's not a full video of a full day, for example.  So I don't know

 5     how many people were on these detention sites, the 12 and the

 6     13 July 1995.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  By the "stadium," do you mean the football field,

 8     Mr. Ruez?

 9             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  I understand what he meant.  Football field

10     was talking about stadium.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we go into private session briefly?

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.

24                           [Private session]

25   (redacted)

Page 24070











11  Pages 24070-24071 redacted.  Private session.















Page 24072

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18                           [Open session]

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.  Please continue.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could we zoom in on

21     this rectangle with the bodies.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   In this football pitch, they are sitting.  We heard from witness

24     statements that they are sitting, and they were guarded by several men.

25     Do you agree that that is information we got from witness statements?

Page 24073

 1        A.   Yes.  That is correct.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  These individuals that we see standing apart in the

 3     front, in the foreground, would those be the Serb soldiers, the guards?

 4        A.   No.  Those who are grouped are prisoners.  The guards would be

 5     standing around.  There is no need to have a huge amount of guards on the

 6     left side, no need.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Could you try to assist us.  I'm now counting the

 8     shortest side, one, two, three, four, five, maybe six.  And the longest

 9     side, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten.  Ten, 11

10     at the outside; correct?

11        A.   One, two, three, four, five, till eleven, what?  Centimetres,

12     people, metres?  I don't understand.

13        Q.   Individuals, Mr. Ruez, those who are sitting.  The shortest side

14     of the rectangle.  We can count five to six, and the longest side of the

15     rectangle, we can count 10 to 11 individuals.  Can you count more than I

16     did?  And when you do the arithmetic you get 60 to 70 people.

17        A.   You're counting skills are far better than mine.  I would not

18     even try to do such a counting, but I think any reasonable person who

19     would take a dot as you can see some of them on -- on this photograph,

20     would have a much, much larger number than the one you come up with.  But

21     this type of counting I never attempted and would not even attempt,

22     because it would at the end be, anyhow, extremely fuzzy since it's

23     material more or less impossibility.  I mean, if an assessment could be

24     made -- and we never bothered doing so, since again this is an instant

25     photograph.  It depicts a situation at an unknown, very precise time, but

Page 24074

 1     the situation on this soccer field most certainly changed several times

 2     during that day depending on the arrival and departure of grouped

 3     prisoners.

 4        Q.   You are trying to say that they left in several batches or they

 5     were transported all at once.  Do you have evidence that they were

 6     transported in groups?  And the moment is 1400 hours on the 14th of July.

 7        A.   It is approximately 1400, and it is not the 14 of July.  The

 8     evacuation of all these regroupment spots was --

 9        Q.   Thirteenth.

10        A.   Yes, it is 13.  We do not know about what -- what series of event

11     happened on this spot.  We -- we don't have enough precise information on

12     this.

13        Q.   Can we talk about 1.500 to 2.000 prisoners with this length and

14     breadth of the rectangle?  And we can count the individuals more than

15     clearly.  Can we really talk about 1.500 to 2.000 prisoners?

16        A.   I would not say.  Again, never counted them.  I mean, attempted

17     to count or estimate their number.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Could we now look at that document, the text by

19     Mr. Tim Butcher from "Daily Telegraph," dated 24 July 1995.  Oh, sorry,

20     we have "The New York Times."  1D5028, please.  This is another text, but

21     could we zoom in on it.

22             This text -- this article refers to you; correct?  Do you

23     remember it?  That's after I was brought here.

24        A.   No.  I have no knowledge at all about this article.

25     9 August 2008, no, I've never seen this.  I don't think so.

Page 24075

 1     "New York Times," no.  I don't recall anyhow.

 2        Q.   Did you make any statements after I was arrested and brought

 3     here?  Did you make any statements for the media?

 4        A.   That could be.  I don't remember, but this -- this could be, yes.

 5     I don't remember.

 6        Q.   Could you look at paragraph 2.  Do you agree that this is

 7     premature on your part to say this?

 8        A.   Regarding the 8.000 men, it's certainly not me who puts this

 9     figure out.  I constantly say that this figure is only the figure of

10     those missing, not those assassinated, and we count only for the sake of

11     the criminal investigation the assassinations, not those whose cause of

12     death is unknown.  The unknown causes are always considered as a

13     legitimate combat.  And for the rest, indeed the reconstruction of the

14     scenario, I -- I could have said that, yes, absolutely.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Can we scroll down, please.  Look at this text.  Did

16     you make these statements, or did they make them up?

17        A.   I should read all of it, but the parts I'm already reading, I

18     abide by the words.  Even if they don't necessarily come from my mouth,

19     they are well reproduced, let's say.  Yes, yes, yes.  I go quickly.

20     Aside a few purely stylistic stuff, yes.  Okay.  I retreat nothing from

21     this.

22        Q.   Well, Mr. Ruez, doesn't this make you an unbiased witness or at

23     least detracts from your position as an unbiased witness?

24        A.   It's up to the Court to decide, President Karadzic.

25        Q.   Could we see 1 page further.

Page 24076

 1        A.   Mm-hmm.

 2        Q.   Look what you say here:

 3             [In English] "I signed it -- signed up immediately."

 4             [Interpretation] In reckoning that this is all praiseworthy, did

 5     you display a similar enthusiasm for investigating the suffering of

 6     Serbs, and do you have any findings about that?

 7        A.   The thing is that when you arrive at the OTP, you never know in

 8     which branch you will be working.  As you might know, the organisation is

 9     such that you have teams working on the cases where Serbs were victims,

10     where Bosniaks were victims, where Croats were victims.  You do not

11     select in which of these three branches you will operate.

12             Had I worked on a case where the victims had been Serbs, I would

13     most certainly and without any doubt on my side have put the same energy

14     finding the truth about what had happened to them, but the story was a

15     bit different.  As I had explained, I ended up, nearly at random, ended

16     up being the head of this specific investigation, and I did only this

17     during all my time of presence in -- nearly only this during all my time

18     of presence at the ICTY.

19             JUDGE BAIRD:  Mr. Ruez, having read the document now, do you --

20     does it jog your memory as to whether or not you gave that interview?

21             THE WITNESS:  Yes, yes.  I did absolutely, yes.

22             JUDGE BAIRD:  You did.

23             THE WITNESS:  Yes, yes.  I also will never hide the fact that

24     even during my time here as a -- as a member of the OTP, I gave already

25     at that time many interviewed -- interviews.  I was cleared to do so by

Page 24077

 1     the Prosecution.  I also accompanied the press people, and I -- when I

 2     left the Tribunal, I said I'm leaving the Tribunal, I'm not leaving the

 3     case.  Meaning that since there was still ongoing propaganda denying even

 4     the existence of the crime that was committed, I felt also as my duty to

 5     continue this part of what, for me, is indeed a full part of the activity

 6     once I -- once I have left this place.  And I would never have stopped

 7     until the arrest of both President Karadzic and mainly

 8     General Ratko Mladic, who was, in fact, the real target of the

 9     investigation.

10             JUDGE BAIRD:  Thank you very much.

11             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Mr. Ruez, you've just said that there was a lot of propaganda and

15     denial.  Did you take into account the propaganda of exaggeration, of

16     overblowing?  Did you take into account the propaganda against the Serbs

17     that hyperbolised the numbers?  Did you notice such things going on?

18        A.   Yes, absolutely.  The -- my first concern when I arrived in Tuzla

19     in summer 1995 was indeed the risk of falling in a trap of propaganda on

20     all sides.  So when I said that the recommendation of Mr. Akashi, I

21     didn't know about it, but when he said cautious about the numbers, it's

22     certainly not only about the numbers that we had to be cautious.  We had

23     to be cautious about any type of information we would receive.  The war

24     was still going on, and since a big famous one, we all know that

25     propaganda is a weapon of war.  So this was a risk.

Page 24078

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, is it time for

 2     the break?

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We will very have a break for 30 minutes, and

 4     after which you will have about 40 minutes to conclude your

 5     cross-examination.

 6                           --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

 7                           --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.  Please continue.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could we please have

10     1D5031.  sorry, can I tender the document that's there?  The witness

11     confirmed that he gave that interview, that he did talk to them.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do apologise to Mr. Mitchell for

14     the late notification.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that's admitted.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D2049, Your Honours.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Exhibit 1D5031.  My apologies once

18     again.  And then can we have page 5.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Let us see what this is about first.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If we look at the first page, we

21     can see what it is.  It is a document listing media topics pertaining to

22     Srebrenica.

23             [In English] Could you show the whole page and then next.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Who -- who is the author, or who compiled this?

25             THE ACCUSED:  This is a site that is dealing with Srebrenica,

Page 24079

 1     Srebrenica Historic Project.  [Interpretation] But the quotes are

 2     correct, and all the sources are correctly cited.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Well, my first question is why -- why you do not

 4     provide the original cite, original news clipping, for example,

 5     "Economist."

 6             Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

 7             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, if I can just clarify one thing.

 8     Is the Srebrenica Historic Project, that's the web site run by

 9     Stevan Karganovic; is that correct.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't know who runs it, but I

11     know that it quotes specific texts in specific papers, but we can obtain

12     all of these texts, although we're going to need time for that.  I just

13     wanted to show this witness the last page because it has to do with Tuzla

14     in July 1995.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Let us proceed and see what happens.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Could you please take a look at this.  There's a reference to

18     Mr. Hubert Wieland here, and there is a quote from the "Daily Telegraph"

19     on the 24th of July.

20             JUDGE KWON:  What is the question, Mr. Karadzic?

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   What can you say about this, that on the 24th of July, another UN

23     agency in charge of refugees presented this information; namely, that

24     there aren't any first-hand witnesses.

25        A.   The answer is simple.  As I said, Mr. -- who I don't know -- I

Page 24080

 1     mean, the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights has a mission.  I don't

 2     know what is exactly his mission, but what I can say is we have another

 3     mission.  It was in the frame of a criminal investigation by the ICTY,

 4     and -- I mean, if he did not find any relevant witness, be sure that we

 5     did.  And not only we, because one of the survivors at the Orahovac site

 6     at that time already was given -- was giving, sorry, at that time

 7     interviews even to the press, not only to officials.

 8             I can give you the name of this witness if you wish.

 9        Q.   Perhaps he's protected, but actually, if he spoke to the papers,

10     not really.

11        A.   Yes.  This one did at that time, and even was -- I mean, he

12     was -- he is a protected witness, but at that time he gave interviews

13     with his full name.  I could only give his code-name for sure.

14             JUDGE KWON:  We'll leave it there.

15             Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

16             MR. MITCHELL:  I was going to say, Mr. President, perhaps we

17     shouldn't give his code-name, because that would then link that to who

18     was giving interviews at the time.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Mr. Ruez, do you see the reasons for my concern about this

22     enthusiasm and fanaticism of the policeman who conducted the

23     investigations?  This is a UN agency as well.  That is why I showed you

24     that interview given to "Monitor" and I asked you whether you were

25     enthusiastic not to say fanatical in your approach to this problem.

Page 24081

 1        A.   The lack of any type of evidence from this report is indeed

 2     obvious, but again the mission of this UN High Commissioner and the

 3     mission we had was significantly different.  So I cannot comment on this.

 4     I don't even know if this information came out from the UN or if it is a

 5     report for -- from a journalist who was just not informed about what this

 6     UN commissioner could find out.

 7             There was another person who arrived in the area at the same time

 8     than we did, since we were in the same helicopter flying from Split to

 9     Tuzla.  It was Mr. Mazowiecki.  And Mr. Mazowiecki, he had access to

10     witnesses, including one who claimed having survived a mass execution,

11     and Mr. Mazowiecki, upon return, resigned from his UN mission.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Is this acceptable, Excellencies,

14     this last page?

15             JUDGE KWON:  I don't know what probative value it will have even

16     if it is to be admitted.

17             Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

18             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, I would object to this without some

19     more information about the source of it.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll not admit this.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the interview in the French

22     parliament be admitted, 20506?  That's the 65 ter number.  And the

23     witness confirmed that.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that will be admitted.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D2050, Your Honours.

Page 24082

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   In relation to those questions that had to do with photographs

 4     and numbers, I was quite clumsy in putting them.  I would like to deal

 5     with it more simply now.

 6             Mr. Ruez, you relied on witness statements, especially injured

 7     parties.  You also took into account media accounts.  You were relying on

 8     pathologists' reports.

 9             I wanted to ask you the following:  Did you study the photographs

10     that are available, and did you check by counting the bodies in these

11     photographs the other sources that you had?

12        A.   First of all, we didn't take in account any media reports.  What

13     I said is that one -- when a media report reported an information that

14     could be useful for the investigation, we did ever -- everything we could

15     to check the information, but we never acted.  I mean, we never have used

16     any media account for this investigation aside this aspect.

17             For the rest, in terms of counting bodies or assessing bodies

18     based on photographs, I explained already that those photographs that

19     show groups of people, we never -- I never made any attempt to count.

20     First of all, because it could only bring an assessment of numbers, and

21     the main reason is also that these are instant shots.  So it's impossible

22     to conclude for certain that the situation at an hour, a minute, second,

23     is not going to change completely one hour later.  So no counting for

24     these.

25             Also in terms of counting bodies on photographs, that was

Page 24083

 1     absolutely none of my business.  There were experts in that matter, and

 2     they were not counting the bodies based on photographs but with other

 3     methods that were explained by these experts.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Are we in open session?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   In the Krstic case, on page 501, you spoke about attempts to get

10     to the buses.  Do you have that statement of yours?  501, that's the page

11     reference.

12             Did you receive this information to the effect that there was a

13     race as to who would find a seat on the bus to Kladanj as fast as

14     possible?

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

16             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, I have a hard copy that could be

17     given to the witness.  We're talking about a completely different site

18     now, so --

19             THE WITNESS:  No, in Potocari, I think.  I can answer.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, then very well.  Page -- yes.  Please continue

21     then.

22             THE WITNESS:  Indeed, due to -- we didn't enter these details for

23     this presentation, but indeed due to the ambiance of terror that was

24     generated by the Serb soldiers in Potocari, people there were indeed very

25     eager to get on board of one of the buses that was doing this transfer

Page 24084

 1     towards Kladanj.  The thing -- the thing is that to board the buses, the

 2     people had first to go through a line of Serb soldiers who were

 3     separating the men from the women and the children and took them to the

 4     first detention centre that was the so-called white house from where then

 5     these prisoners were taken to Bratunac.  But indeed due to the crimes

 6     that were committed during the 12 and the 13 in Bratunac, yes, it's true

 7     that the people were extremely in a hurry to leave this place.

 8        Q.   Mr. Ruez, were you there --

 9        A.   Sorry, not in Bratunac, in Potocari.

10        Q.   Were you there, or did you infer that on the basis of the film

11     that you had available?

12        A.   The knowledge we have about the situation in Potocari comes from,

13     let's say, one part of the investigation that focused only on the events

14     in Potocari.  So based not only on the film, which is a very important

15     piece of it since it's images taken on the spot at the time of the

16     events, but also from all the witnesses in the -- in that -- in this

17     location, these being not only the Bosniaks who were evacuated, but also

18     all the UN personnel who was witnessing what was going on there.

19        Q.   So what is the crime that you refer to in Potocari?  What was the

20     reason for this panic?  First of all, do you see this panic on the film

21     itself?

22             JUDGE KWON:  He didn't testify as -- as a crime base witness.

23     Your legal advisor objected to the substantive evidence he was asked

24     about, and now you are inviting him to comment upon what he heard from

25     witnesses.

Page 24085

 1             His evidence in Krstic was not admitted in this trial.  He may

 2     well be allowed to comment upon what he heard from witnesses, but in this

 3     case he didn't.

 4             I don't see the point of your questions, but that said, it's up

 5     to you to ask any questions.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do apologise.  I confused two

 7     witnesses.  I thought that this had been admitted, too, in this case.

 8     But now we're just relying on viva voce, right, what the witness himself

 9     said?

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Then I'm going to move

12     on to another topic.  Please neglect this.

13             1D5026, could we have that, please?  That's a video that was

14     announced by the Prosecution, and then they gave up on it.

15             Could we now view it from 6:04 to 6:44.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Is this part of trial video, Mr. Mitchell?

17             MR. MITCHELL:  Yes, it is.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

19             MR. MITCHELL:  One second, Mr. President.  I'll confirm.

20                           [Prosecution and Case Manager confer]

21             MR. MITCHELL:  Yes, it is.  It's part one of the trial video.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see 8:43 to 8:54.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Can you stop for a moment.

25             Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

Page 24086

 1             MR. MITCHELL:  The transcript of this is on ERN 07047813 in the

 2     trial video took.  It's in the section entitled "Srebrenica town 10 July

 3     1995."

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Do you remember, Mr. Ruez, that from 6:04 to 6:44 this footage

 7     you can see the presence of the Muslim army that is firing from the town

 8     of Srebrenica itself?

 9        A.   I remember indeed these pictures, but for the rest I -- I don't

10     know the name of the man here in the middle of the screen, but, yes, he's

11     one of the commanders of the 28th Division.  Yes, for sure.  The -- this

12     is next to Company Bravo, the UN battalion.  That's the sub-base.  The

13     main base was in Potocari.  This one is in Srebrenica town.  This is just

14     probably just a few -- before Srebrenica town is evacuated with these two

15     directions we have explained.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Do you remember having seen a scene where the Muslim

17     army firing from the town of Srebrenica itself?

18             THE WITNESS:  On the footage at one moment there is indeed a

19     mortar nearby who is firing rounds towards the Serb positions, indeed,

20     yeah, uh-huh.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we now look at 8:43

23     to 8:54, and could this footage also be admitted from 6:04 to 6:44, what

24     the witness confirmed.

25                           [Video-clip played]

Page 24087

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Do you see that this witness speaks of 15.000 inhabitants who are

 3     to defend themselves?  Fifteen thousand inhabitants, and he is cursing

 4     and saying they should defend themselves.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

 6             MR. MITCHELL:  The transcript doesn't say any such thing.  It

 7     says "15.000 inhabitants, fuck," that's it.  Nothing about, "defend

 8     yourselves."

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.  Let's play it again.

10     Let's see whether he says that there are 15.000 inhabitants there.

11             JUDGE MORRISON:  Mr. Karadzic, you described him as a witness.

12     He's not a witness.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, no.  This part of the film

14     displays the following:  This commander, who is trying to organise the

15     defence, as the witness confirmed, says that there are 15.000 inhabitants

16     there, and he is calling for a defence -- or, rather, trying to organise

17     some kind of defence.  We can view this half minute.

18                           [Video-clip played]

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] He says:  "Cowards."

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we have transcript for that.

21                           [Video-clip played]

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can that be seen now?

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Do you see it, Mr. Witness, that he's trying to organise the

25     defence, and he is claiming that there are 15.000 inhabitants there, and

Page 24088

 1     he's calling them cowards because they're not fighting?

 2        A.   I don't understand B/C/S, so I don't have any live -- I mean, I

 3     cannot hear what he's saying.  There is a transcript on it.  I don't know

 4     if the Prosecution considers this transcript as being an official

 5     transcript.  I don't know.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  One clarifying question for you, Mr. Mitchell.  Have

 7     we not admitted the trial video in its entirety?

 8             MR. MITCHELL:  Yes.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  So this part is already in the evidence.

10             MR. MITCHELL:  Correct.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise.  They didn't want to

12     show it.  That's why I thought that I should show it.

13             Can we now look at 1D5207.  And can we start at 44:10.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

15             MR. MITCHELL:  This is also part of the trial video, the first

16     part.

17             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not -- we are not seeing anything.  Yes.  But

18     could you identify the page number of the transcript as well, last four

19     digits?

20             MR. MITCHELL:  As soon as I --

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

22             MR. MITCHELL:  -- see the start of it I'll be able to.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can you display 44:10 to 44:35.

25                           [Video-clip played]

Page 24089

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That is enough.  Thank you.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Do you see how -- I apologise.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Go on, Mr. Mitchell.  You wanted to

 5     say something.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  It won't be necessary.  We saw it already, didn't

 7     we?

 8             MR. MITCHELL:  Yes, Mr. President.  I just wanted to give you the

 9     transcript page.  It ends in 7828.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

11             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Do we agree that the meeting between Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans

14     and General Mladic took place in the evening on the 11th July and that it

15     took place at the Fontana Hotel?

16        A.   Yes, indeed.  This first meeting.

17        Q.   Did you notice that at the end of the day on the 11th of July,

18     Lieutenant Karremans says that there are about 10.000 refugees in his

19     base?

20        A.   At that moment they were not in the base.  Only approximately

21     5.000 could be accommodated in the base, and the number he talks about is

22     the number of those who had arrived on -- in the evening of the 11.  The

23     situation then inflated in terms of numbers.  But again, these numbers

24     are assessments, and since I didn't answer the question regarding the

25     previous footage, my interpretation of what this 28th Division commander

Page 24090

 1     says is that he's referring to the number of able men.  He's not talking

 2     about the women and the children and the elderly and the disabled,

 3     because these ones are not supposed to take weapons to defend themselves.

 4     So this 15.000 will be probably the amount of those who ended up

 5     gathering at the north-west of the enclave east -- west, sorry, yes,

 6     Susnjari -- no, in the location from where then they took off from the

 7     enclave to the woods.

 8        Q.   However, we know the division had about 15.000 men, but he

 9     doesn't say that.  He says 15.000 inhabitants; right?

10        A.   The transcript says "inhabitants," but then the question is does

11     he also counts in this the women, children, and the elderly, claiming

12     that they are cowards and should defend themselves.  I don't think so.

13        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  Do you agree that some order should be

14     installed in the system of numbers relative to Srebrenica?

15        A.   I fully agree with you.  This is why the only number that counts

16     for a criminal case is the number of people who have been assassinated in

17     this extermination of prisoners.  This is the only number that, at the

18     end of the day, counts.

19        Q.   Thank you.  However, when it comes to the so-called deportation,

20     do you agree that it is also necessary to establish how many inhabitants

21     were there, how many arrived in Tuzla, and why they arrived there, whose

22     will was it for them to arrive there?

23        A.   The legal term for this aspect is foreseeable transfer, if I

24     remember well.  The number of these is known more or less, more or less.

25     You had the document of the UN that was numbering these people according

Page 24091

 1     to the numbers in the refugee centres in Tuzla, in and around Tuzla, but

 2     you were right.  Many were accommodated in places where they were not

 3     counted.  So this number is a minimum number.  Then, you know, everything

 4     is -- what's the starting base of the calculation?  You know, you -- you

 5     pulled out a number that was an assessment of 93.  Was this a correct

 6     number?  Was it not a correct number?  All these numbers will, anyhow, be

 7     extremely fuzzy.  We do not count for the criminal case, possible also

 8     disappearances during the trip from Potocari to Kladanj, because it's

 9     impossible to investigate, and the numbers would be too small to enable

10     any serious investigation, though we had indications that this might have

11     happened.

12             So -- but I said several times since the beginning of this

13     testimony the only number that can be considered as relevant for the

14     criminal investigation is the number of people found in graves that we

15     can connect with the place and cause of death.  So people who were in

16     detention and were executed.

17             At this stage, as I said, my knowledge post facto, because I have

18     left the place since 2001, is that at this stage some -- a bit more than

19     6.000 individuals have been identified by name from these graves, and

20     these men were missing from Srebrenica July 1995, not 1992, 1993, 1994.

21     July 1995.

22        Q.   Very well, Mr. Ruez.  We will prove that there were all the

23     different years according to Muslim sources, which we are not going to

24     present today.

25             Are you saying that among those people, among those who were

Page 24092

 1     identified, there is nobody who died in any other day -- any other way,

 2     for example, during combat?  We've already been through that.  We had

 3     people who testified here and who said that they'd seen four or five

 4     people being killed around them, being killed in combat, and still they

 5     are in the database of those who were exhumed from the mass graves.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

 7             MR. MITCHELL:  First, Mr. President, that's a statement.  There

 8     is no question.

 9             And second, I don't think there's any evidence from a witness

10     I've seen that people were killed in combat and were then exhumed from

11     the mass graves, certainty the mass graves that are related or charged in

12     our indictment.

13             THE WITNESS:  I wish to add something on this, if possible.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

15             THE WITNESS:  Several members of 1st Zvornik Brigade have been

16     indicted and trialed at the ICTY, among them Dragan Obrenovic, the second

17     in command of the Zvornik Brigade who pleaded guilty.  Among them also

18     Major Jokic, who was the head of the engineer battalion of the

19     Zvornik Brigade.  Strangely, none of these two most knowledgeable persons

20     about what is called the "cleaning of the terrain" process has ever, ever

21     claimed having even witnessed the fact that bodies had been taken from

22     battle-fields to be reburied in these graves that the Zvornik Brigade has

23     opened and filled.  So I'm honestly quite astonished that such a theory

24     that has never been put up front by all this most knowledgeable persons

25     in charge of such a process comes up as a possibility, because these ones

Page 24093

 1     are not Bosniak or whatever victims.  They are those who committed the

 2     crimes.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   And those who made arrangements with the OTP, at least one of

 5     them who plea bargained, that is?

 6        A.   The one who took his full responsibility, yes.

 7        Q.   Do you know that sanitisation is not carried out by the military

 8     but by the civilian protection?

 9        A.   Maybe, but then to touch one of these sites that were under full

10     control of the army where not even the police could approach would be a

11     very, very strange move from these civilians of civil protection to step

12     on the goods of the army at that time.

13        Q.   How do you explain that Witness 045 mentioned the names of some

14     six or seven people who were killed next to him in combat, they were not

15     executed, and still their DNAs are in the database and we're also charged

16     with their murders?  I was able to check their names against the names of

17     their parents.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

19             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, this was something that I think we

20     addressed either yesterday or the day before.  Witness 045 is the dam

21     survivor.  Here he was talking about bodies who -- or people who were

22     killed in combat prior to him being arrested.  It's a totally separate

23     thing from the execution and burial that he later witnessed at the dam.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  He didn't say that they were found in the mass

25     graves, did he?

Page 24094

 1             MR. MITCHELL:  Not specifically, Mr. President, but he said,

 2     "we're also charged with their murders," which I think the clear

 3     implication is then that they came out of those mass graves, because

 4     Mr. Karadzic is not charged with killings of surface remains which were

 5     recovered from that area.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 7             Now it's time for you to wrap up your cross-examination,

 8     Mr. Karadzic.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I could like to call up just one

10     more photo, but before that, six or seven names that 045 mentioned as

11     people who were killed next to him, they -- they are in the DNA's

12     database as those who were executed, and it will be -- to prove that.

13     I'm asking the witness whether he is aware of such things happening, and

14     we will be able to find as many as up to 40 per cent of those who died in

15     different places, who were killed in different ways.

16             JUDGE KWON:  It's just an argument.  I think it's time to

17     conclude.  Unless you have a specific question, I'll conclude, I'll put

18     your cross-examination to an end.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Photo 260.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   And can you explain on page 57 -- I believe that that was on

22     page 57 when you said that this photo depicts the first layer.  Can you

23     explain the meaning of the first layer?  Is there another layer of soil

24     between the first layer and the second layer?

25        A.   This junk of bodies has the full size of the mound that you can

Page 24095

 1     see on the picture.  So it's not soil.  It's what is left of the human

 2     beings that have been dumped in this large hole.  The entire -- the

 3     entire depth of this initial hole is covered with bodies, with soil mixed

 4     with it and shell casings mixed with it.  So you have here the size of

 5     the grave, and what to say more?  The picture is self-explanatory, I

 6     would think.

 7        Q.   Mr. Ruez, my question was this:  On page 57, you said this was

 8     the first layer.  Here we see a skull that belonged to one of the bodies

 9     above it, and there is about 20 centimetres of soil between the skull and

10     the rest of the remains.  How can you explain this, that there are layers

11     of bodies and there are layers of soil between those layers of bodies.

12     How can this fact be explained unless all those bodies were buried in

13     different stages, in different phases, at different times?

14        A.   This is a question for the archaeologists who dug the bodies out

15     of these graves.  They didn't dug them out, by the way.  They dealt with

16     them like they do with the 2- or 3.000-year-old objects that they find in

17     other type of activities that they normal conduct.  I won't answer this

18     question.

19        Q.   Then you cannot answer the question whether new bodies were added

20     on top of the other bodies in a mass grave at some subsequent times.

21        A.   You know what I think about this theory, so I leave it to

22     scientists to sort it out.

23        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  Thank you.  I apologise for insisting on

24     precision, but I'm sure you will appreciate that as a police officer.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

Page 24096

 1             MR. MITCHELL:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 2                           Re-examination by Mr. Mitchell:

 3        Q.   Mr. Ruez, there's five areas that I'd like to briefly address

 4     with you.  You were asked earlier today some questions about the number

 5     of prisoners at Nova Kasaba on the 13th of July, and Mr. Karadzic

 6     suggested to you at around page 23 of today's transcript that you could

 7     only see 60 to 70 people on that aerial image that was taken at

 8     approximately 1400 hours on the 13th of July.  Do you recall that?

 9        A.   Yes, I do.

10             MR. MITCHELL:  Can I please have Exhibit P168 in e-court.

11        Q.   Mr. Ruez, what you can see -- or if you can take your time and

12     read this document.

13        A.   Mm-hmm, yes.

14        Q.   We can scroll down.

15        A.   Uh-huh.  Yes.

16        Q.   And go over to the next page in English.

17        A.   Yep, crystal clear.

18        Q.   If we can go back to the first page in English now.  And this was

19     a report sent from the IKM or the forward command post of the

20     65th Protection Regiment at 1400 hours on the 13 July.  It states in the

21     very first sentence that there are over 1.000 members of the former

22     28th Division of the so-called BiH Army captured in the area of Dusanovo

23     Kasaba.  And then at least a proposal from the assistant commander for

24     security and intelligence to prohibit access to unauthorised individuals,

25     prohibit traffic for United Nations vehicles and then place these

Page 24097

 1     prisoners indoor or in an area protected from sighting from the ground or

 2     the air.

 3             And my question, Mr. Ruez, is:  Firstly, does this number of

 4     1.000 -- over 1.000 members, is that consistent with the information that

 5     your investigation uncovered?

 6        A.   As I said, it's a very risky game to play with numbers.  I would

 7     easily have added a zero to the assessment done by President Karadzic

 8     based on the photograph, but again, I would not do such a thing.

 9             Having this number officially by the document you are showing is

10     for sure the best way to have an assessment, and at the time and the hour

11     of this document.

12        Q.   And we see at point 3, the proposal from the assistant commander

13     for security and intelligence affairs of the VRS Main Staff was to place

14     these prisoners indoors or in an area protected from sighting from the

15     ground or the air.  Is that what actually happened to these prisoners?

16        A.   Yes, two things happened, one being -- there were -- there were

17     not many places to put the people indoors aside the Kravica warehouse,

18     the little warehouse at the intersection of Konjevic Polje.  But I'm not

19     sure I have to mention that, but then there was the request of transfer

20     of the packets from Bratunac to warehouses north, and that was a

21     communication that Miroslav Deronjic had, and he explained to me what

22     packets meant, and [Overlapping speakers] --

23             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Mitchell, I'm not sure --

24             THE WITNESS:  Prisoners.

25             JUDGE KWON:  I'm sorry to interrupt, Mr. Ruez.  I'm not sure

Page 24098

 1     whether this arises from the cross-examination.  You can move on to your

 2     next topic.

 3             MR. MITCHELL:  I will, Mr. President.

 4        Q.   The next area I'd like to ask you about, Mr. Ruez, is yesterday

 5     at transcript page 24047, you were asked about an aerial image of

 6     Branjevo Farm that's dated 17 July 1995.  This is one of the images in

 7     your book.  Page 219 in the hard copy.  And what -- what you said about

 8     this image was the process is ending at this moment.  There are still

 9     bodies left on the surface.  The grave is not closed yet, but this

10     inhumation was completed according to the Engineer Unit's log.

11     Inhumation was completed that day.

12             Do you recall that?

13        A.   Yes, I do.

14        Q.   If I look at 65 ter 2158, and it's page 17 in the English and

15     page 137 in the B/C/S.

16             Do you recognise what this document is?

17        A.   No, I don't.

18        Q.   Well, if you can look at --

19        A.   I mean, I know it's probably the document I was referring to, but

20     I'm not hundred per cent sure.  I would think so, yes.  The work at

21     Branjevo, the work with the ULT, the ULT being a digger.  Yes, that's the

22     document.

23        Q.   So is this points 2, 3, and 5 that we can see that are related to

24     what we can see on the aerial image?

25        A.   The 2 and 3, yes.  Sorry, the 5 also, yes, yeah.

Page 24099

 1        Q.   Mr. Ruez, yesterday and also today you were asked some questions

 2     about the estimate of 1.200 prisoners killed at Branjevo Farm, and that

 3     was based on the estimation of Drazen Erdemovic.  And yesterday at

 4     transcript 23998, Mr. Karadzic said to you:

 5             "Could you get anything more objective and impartial than

 6     Drazen Erdemovic?  Could you not deal with it more scientifically, if you

 7     will?"

 8             Do you recall that series of questions?

 9        A.   Yes, I do.  The answer was not fully complete, but I do.

10        Q.   Can I go to 65 ter 23953.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I ask for an explanation?

12     What's this BG 2 and LT?

13             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  I will allow the witness to explain it

14     if he knows.  BGH-700 and ULT 220.

15             THE WITNESS:  The two are heavy equipment diggers, front loader.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

17                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

18             JUDGE KWON:  The --

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It doesn't have anything to do with

20     the number of victims; right?  These figures are not related to the

21     number of victims.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, it's not an appropriate comment.

23             I'm told that the Registry can't --

24             THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]

25             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, Mr. Karadzic.  The Registry told me

Page 24100

 1     that it can't open the document you referred to by that number.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excuse me.  I just wanted a

 3     complete answer.  What are these references and names, these acronyms and

 4     numbers?

 5             MR. MITCHELL:  I can respond to that.  Mr. Karadzic is no doubt

 6     aware that the evidence of the excavator driver who drove the BGH-700 is

 7     actually in evidence in this case, Cvijetin Ristanic.  The platoon

 8     commander of the Engineering Company, Dejan Lazarevic, his testimony is

 9     also in evidence.

10             JUDGE KWON:  By way of 92 bis, you mean?

11             MR. MITCHELL:  Correct.  And those two witnesses give a full

12     explanation of the burials at Branjevo Farm.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm still not satisfied.  Is this

15     number something related --

16             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- to the brand, the type, or the

18     number of victims?

19             JUDGE KWON:  I find your intervention even obstructive this time.

20             Yes, Mr. Mitchell.  Please continue.

21             MR. MITCHELL:  Thank you, Mr. President.  The 65 ter number I

22     wanted was 23593.

23        Q.   Mr. Ruez, this is a document that you haven't seen before.  It's

24     entitled "Update to the Summary of Forensic Evidence ...," and it's dated

25     the 13th of January, 2012.

Page 24101

 1             If I can go to page 40 in e-court.  And just look at the very

 2     first sentence there which gives an explanation at the data that we're

 3     about to see.

 4             "The table below presents the total number of individuals

 5     identified per mass execution site - primary and corresponding secondary

 6     graves linked to these sites."

 7             If we can go then to the next page and scroll down to the bottom.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  How about leaving it to Mr. Dusan Janc when he

 9     comes?  Is Mr. Ruez capable of commenting on his evidence?

10             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, I can leave it to when Mr. Janc

11     comes, but I think this number provided by Drazen Erdemovic was

12     specifically challenged, and --

13             JUDGE KWON:  Why don't you proceed then.  Move on to your next

14     topic, please.

15             MR. MITCHELL:  Certainly.

16        Q.   Mr. Ruez, I'd like to deal briefly with the issue of combat

17     casualties, and if I can refer to transcript page 24024, lines 8 to 10.

18     Yesterday Mr. Karadzic suggested to you that the combat casualties in the

19     Bare area had been buried in the graves that you investigated.  Do you

20     recall that series of questions?

21        A.   Yes, I do.  And initially I didn't know that he was talking about

22     the area north of Kravica.  I thought he was talking about an area much

23     closer to -- I mean, to an eventual possibility, though it was not the

24     case.  It was an area where the Sapna thumb is, so in the area of

25     Orahovac.  But I didn't relies at that point he was talking about the

Page 24102

 1     surface remains at Bare who had been buried by no one before

 2     Elizabeth Rehn came with a team to collect surface remains which are not

 3     connected with our criminal investigation.

 4        Q.   So to be crystal clear, those remains were still on the surface

 5     in 1996, and obviously were not buried in the graves that you

 6     investigated.

 7        A.   Yes, absolutely, and I even think that after this first process

 8     there were still bodies on the -- on the surface in this area.

 9        Q.   Did your investigation find any evidence that on 13, 14, 15, 16,

10     or 17 July the Bosnian Serb forces or civil protection went into these

11     areas where surface remains were found in 1996 and collected some surface

12     remains and left some behind?

13        A.   No one among all those we talked during the investigation, no one

14     ever came up with such an information, though indeed it would have been

15     of the interest of the Serb side to bring such an information if it would

16     be a valid one so in order to create a haze around the origin the bodies

17     that could still be found, knowing that the goal of the entire

18     disturbance operation was to hide the bodies so that they would never be

19     found.  It's, in my eyes, absolute nonsense to claim that additional

20     bodies have been put in these graves.  It doesn't make any sense to me.

21             MR. MITCHELL:  Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  I have no further questions.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I ask for a small

23     clarification?

24             JUDGE KWON:  Before you put the question, on what item do you

25     like to ask a question?

Page 24103

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] On the existence of a separate

 2     grave for Bare as the witness claimed and I denied, a special separate

 3     grave for those fallen; and secondly, regarding exaggeration and

 4     inflation of numbers.  We saw that on the video footage where somebody

 5     says, yes, there are exaggerations concerning the number of prisoners.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  No, Mr. Karadzic.  You dealt with those issued and

 7     nothing arises from the re-examination of Mr. Mitchell.

 8                           Questioned by the Court:

 9             JUDGE KWON:  I have one question, Mr. Ruez.  Shall we upload

10     Exhibit P4269, which is a panorama montage of Kravica warehouse from the

11     clips of Mr. Petrovic's video.

12             Probably you remember that I put a question to you.  It's

13     transcript page T23775, and I reminded you there that you said:

14             "At the entrance, at the front west of the warehouse where one

15     can see a Bosnian Serb soldier just in front at the right hand, the

16     picture and a stack of dead bodies or people, who most probably tried to

17     exit the place once the shooting started and who are piled up at the

18     entrance."

19             You remember that testimony you gave?

20        A.   I remember very well, but the strange thing is that on the screen

21     we never had this full picture.  We only had the one-third totally at the

22     right.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, this is a composite, but you have --

24        A.   I made the composite, so indeed I know this picture quite well,

25     but it was not the one we had on the screen.  We couldn't see the bus

Page 24104

 1     also.  It's --

 2             JUDGE KWON:  So, Mr. Mitchell, could you tell me the page

 3     number -- page number of the close-up of the west side?  Yes, it's

 4     page 111 and onwards.

 5             And I also asked you as to the door, and you said, I quote:

 6             "I would think there has never been a door.  It's an open space."

 7             Do you remember having said that?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  If I were to put to you now that there used to be a

10     door and it was closed at the time and what it looked -- what looked like

11     windows on this picture were actually metal door handle.

12        A.   No.  No way.  No, no.  What we see at the back is one of the

13     windows that leads to the outside at the back of the warehouse.  This is

14     a full open space.  The frame of this door -- I mean door opening, sorry,

15     was found at the Glogova, the mass grave site, as well as a piece of

16     concrete that matches a missing part of this warehouse.  But there was no

17     door, especially not at this moment where the bodies are piled in the

18     front but also more deep inside or the entire place at this moment was

19     certainly covered with bodies.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Before going further with the witness,

21     Mr. Mitchell, Mr. Tieger, do you have position in relation to this issue

22     as to the door?

23             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, as you know, this was a topic of

24     much conjecture in the last case, and I think we didn't contest the

25     Defence's position that there was a door.  I'm not sure I would go as far

Page 24105

 1     as to say that we agree there's a door, but if I can confer and maybe

 2     come back to you after the next break.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 4             So you heard the position of the Prosecution, but if you were --

 5     I were to tell you that there was a door which was closed at the time,

 6     would that -- would your observation or conclusion be different from what

 7     you said earlier on?

 8        A.   No.  I would not change my position.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  And further, yesterday's transcript

10     page 23993, and you said that when Mr. Petrovic and Borovcanin arrived,

11     the killing was still ongoing.  Do you remember having said that?

12        A.   Yes.

13             JUDGE KWON:  What would be your basis for saying so?

14        A.   The interrogation we had when we -- when we saw the footage is

15     that shooting could be heard.  So the question was where -- what does

16     this shooting mean?  It should be combat -- combat -- sounds of combat.

17     It could be also what is named happy fire.  We know at some -- at least

18     on one side where soldiers were firing in the air between executions and

19     yelling and enjoying.  And the third option could be that the execution

20     here was not over, that we were -- since we know it happened in several

21     waves, that people were called to get out and so on.  So this is why

22     there was a need to compare this photograph and its interest also with

23     the appearance of this facade as close possible after the events.  This

24     was an opportunity that occurred in January 1996 since before that it was

25     totally impossible to access the -- this area, and this is the reason why

Page 24106

 1     I ended up counting the bullet holes on the facade in order to see

 2     whatever difference could be seen.  And the conclusion is that aside

 3     thinking that someone later had fun shooting on this wall, at the moment

 4     of this film additional shots were fired here.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Unless my colleagues have -- yes, you

 6     have a question.

 7             JUDGE BAIRD:  Dr. Ruez, I'd like to take you back to the door one

 8     more time.  And just look at that body on the top in the blue.

 9        A.   Mm-hmm.

10             JUDGE BAIRD:  The way it is sort of suspending there, could this

11     be suspending there unless there was something behind it?

12        A.   I could not say.  The picture is not clear enough.  I think one

13     possibility to sort out the debate would be to find the photographs of

14     door -- the door frame -- the frame of the entrance which was most

15     certainly photographed when it was found inside the mass grave and check

16     if there are these device on it that enable a door to be attached in that

17     location.  If there is none, end of debate.  If there is, unfortunately,

18     debate would still be open, because the picture is not clear enough.  But

19     for me, what is seen at the back of this photograph is in no way a door

20     handle.  It is the window at the back of the warehouse.

21             JUDGE BAIRD:  Thank you.

22             JUDGE MORRISON:  Yes, that was the question I was going to ask,

23     whether or not from your memory there was a window in that location.

24        A.   We could check -- yes.  Let's take the page 113, please, of the

25     book.

Page 24107

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Would you like to mark it?

 2        A.   So again as I explained --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 4             Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

 5             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, I should put on the record I've

 6     looked back at our position in Popovic, and we did actually agree with

 7     the Defence that those doors were closed.  That was our position, and we

 8     will take the same position here.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

10        A.   End of debate.

11             JUDGE KWON:  And having heard that, your conclusion would not be

12     different from what you're saying?

13        A.   No.  No, no, no.  For me there is absolutely no door on this, no

14     door.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

16             JUDGE BAIRD:  If there were doors, would your conclusion be

17     different?  That's the question.  If there was ...

18        A.   If there was a door?

19             JUDGE BAIRD:  Yes.

20        A.   If I'm proven that there is a door, I will have to accept that I

21     made a very wrong assessment.  But based on the knowledge I have and

22     based on the photographs I have just right now and have the eyes, knowing

23     that there were objects also in there that could change indeed the aspect

24     of the thing, knowing also that the angle of that is slightly different,

25     for me there is no doubt.  I have the evidence right under my eyes at the

Page 24108

 1     moment I'm speaking with you.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  But the Chamber would be benefitted from hearing

 3     you, but why don't you proceed to explain to us why you believe that the

 4     door -- there was no door and that what we see here are actually -- were

 5     actually windows.

 6        A.   For the simple reason that the hole here is the door at the back

 7     of the warehouse, and that you have here the same light coming from the

 8     back.  There is the same window here and here.  The only difference is

 9     that here, on the -- at the time of the events there was something that I

10     could be totally unable to identify that was blocking part of this

11     window.  On the other part of the warehouse, for example, there were

12     parts of vehicles and things.  I mean, the witness escaped from the other

13     part of the warehouse, if I remember well, climbed on some object there.

14     So during the evacuation of the bodies inside, the bulldozer most

15     certainly grabbed everything on its way.  So these objects probably then

16     disappeared, at least they were not present when we stepped in -- for the

17     full mission in -- later in 1996.  During this short incursion in January

18     1996, as I explained, we took one sample and had to leave.  It was not a

19     crime scene analysis mission.  It was a get-in, get-out.

20             JUDGE KWON:  What is seen in the bottom picture, i.e., the

21     picture taken at either 1996 or 1997?

22        A.   The bottom is a -- it was 1996, I think, I mean, but later, not

23     January.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Is a window, is it?

25        A.   Yes, it is a window, absolutely.

Page 24109

 1             JUDGE KWON:  But it's not seen on the footage which can be seen

 2     in Petrovic video, or it's different.

 3        A.   No.  The Petrovic video is the picture on the top.  The picture I

 4     took here is the same -- the same opening.  But as I explained, you know,

 5     in fact when it was destroyed it broke all this part.  So due to the

 6     angle here now it looks much smaller, but it's a question of -- of angle,

 7     in fact.  The door was -- compared with this it was not this full size.

 8     This part here is missing, and here it's missing, so --

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

10        A.   But this is in relation with this.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Could you initial this and date it on this image.

12     Technical question:  Shall we admit it as a Chamber evidence or

13     Prosecution evidence?

14             MR. MITCHELL:  We're happy to have it admitted as a Prosecution

15     exhibit.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We'll do so.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P4340, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Then that concludes your evidence, Mr. Ruez.  Just a

19     second.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE KWON:  My -- my colleagues want to confirm whether you have

22     any question with respect to this point, Mr. Karadzic.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Fortunately, it's not dance music.

24     Then we would have to dance.

25                           Further Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

Page 24110

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] May I ask you, Mr. Ruez, do you believe these

 2     three, four bullet traces are in the same position on both sides,

 3     especially the vertical axis?

 4        A.   Yes, I do.

 5        Q.   Don't you see that the angle is a bit different?  And there's one

 6     more bullet hole.

 7        A.   Yes, absolutely.  I went through the explanation of this, yes.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Were you present during the interview conducted by Mr. Blaszczyk

11     with Zoran Petrovic?

12        A.   No.  I have, unfortunately, never met Zoran Petrovic.

13        Q.   Do you agree that this upper photograph is a freeze from the film

14     shown on public TV?

15        A.   Yes.  I froze it.

16        Q.   So it's not confidential.  It's in the public domain?

17        A.   What is in the public domain?

18        Q.   I think, Mr. Ruez, you said on the first day that you had not

19     received everything from Mr. Petrovic, and you mentioned precisely the

20     part around Kravica, but don't you see now that all this has been

21     broadcast?

22             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Mr. Karadzic, you were allowed to

23     ask specific questions with respect to the point of the door.  If you do

24     not have any further questions, we'll stop here.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not on this, Your Excellency.

Page 24111

 1     Thank you.  And thank you, Judges, for making clear certain things that

 2     the Defence should have done.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

 4             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, if I could seek leave to put one

 5     question to the witness on this topic.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 7                           Further Re-examination by Mr. Mitchell:

 8        Q.   Mr. Ruez, if you accept that there are doors in this image and

 9     that they're closed, does that in any way change your assessment of what

10     happened on the inside of the warehouse?

11        A.   In no way.

12             MR. MITCHELL:  Thank you.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Well, that really concludes your evidence,

14     Mr. Jean-Rene Ruez.  On behalf of my colleagues and the Tribunal as a

15     whole, I would like to thank you for coming to The Hague again, and

16     please have a safe journey back home.

17             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

18             JUDGE KWON:  We'll rise all together.  We'll have a break for an

19     hour, but before that, Mr. Tieger.

20             MR. TIEGER:  Yes.  Thank you, Mr. President.  Before we break, I

21     would just ask for the Court to consider the possibility of some extended

22     sitting today to complete the witness who we -- you will recall that we

23     inverted the order of the witnesses in order to complete by the end of

24     this week.  The upcoming witness, I'm just concerned about the -- our

25     ability to do so without a little additional time beyond the next

Page 24112

 1     session.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  How much time did we allot for the next witness for

 3     Mr. Karadzic's cross-examination?

 4             MR. MITCHELL:  I believe we have got half an hour and

 5     Mr. Karadzic has one and a half, so we need two hours.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  The next witness is --

 7             MR. MITCHELL:  KDZ333.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  -- KDZ333.  We'll ask around whether it is feasible.

 9             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I also express my position?

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In addition to the fact that we

13     work four days a week, we work long hours, and now we're supposed to

14     extend those long hours even further.  I should like to ask you to kindly

15     take into account that nobody in this courtroom, apart from some

16     occasional assistant, is 25 any longer.  I certainly am not, and this is

17     extremely exhausting for me.

18             JUDGE KWON:  We'll consider the issue and come back to you at the

19     next session.

20             We'll take a break for an hour.

21             Thank you, Mr. Ruez.

22                           [The witness withdrew]

23                           --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.31 p.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 1.33 p.m.

25                           [The witness entered court]

Page 24113

 1             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber has ordered that the witness have the

 2     additional protective measures of voice distortion on a temporary basis.

 3             Could the witness take the solemn declaration, please.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 5     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 6                           WITNESS:  KDZ333

 7                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 8                           Questioned by the Court on Protective Measures:

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, sir.  Please be seated and make yourself

10     comfortable.

11        A.   Thank you.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Could we move into private session briefly.  There

13     are a couple of matters to be dealt with.  First, I was informed, that,

14     Mr. Witness, you wanted to have your -- private session already, please.

15                           [Private session]

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 24114











11  Pages 24114-24118 redacted.  Private session.















Page 24119

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15                           [Open session]

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

17             MR. MITCHELL:  Thank you.

18                           Examination by Mr. Mitchell:

19        Q.   Good afternoon, Witness.

20        A.   Good afternoon.

21        Q.   May I please have 65 ter 90310 in e-court and not to be

22     broadcast.

23             Witness, as you know, you're testifying here today with a

24     pseudonym, so without saying your name out loud, can you confirm that

25     that's your name on the screen in front of you?

Page 24120

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             MR. MITCHELL:  I can tender that, Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Exhibit P4341.

 4             MR. MITCHELL:

 5        Q.   Witness, do you recall testifying in the case of

 6     Prosecutor v. Radislav Krstic on the 14th of April, 2000?

 7        A.   Yes.  Yes.

 8        Q.   Have you had an opportunity to review that testimony?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Can you confirm that it's accurate?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And if you were asked the same questions today, would your

13     answers be the same?

14        A.   Yes.

15             MR. MITCHELL:  I'd like to tender the witness's Krstic testimony,

16     65 ter 3247, and the three associated exhibits.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Any objections, Mr. Robinson?

18             MR. ROBINSON:  No, Mr. President.

19             JUDGE KWON:  The transcript and three associated exhibits will be

20     admitted into evidence.  They will be -- the 92 ter transcript will be

21     Exhibit P4342, and the others will be given numbers in due course by the

22     Registry.

23             MR. MITCHELL:  I'd now like to read a summary of the witness's

24     evidence.

25             On 11 July 1995, after the fall of Srebrenica, the witness and

Page 24121

 1     his family left their home.  The witness's family went to Potocari, and

 2     the witness went to Jaglici as he was afraid of being killed by Serb

 3     soldiers.  There were around 10- to 15.000 people at Jaglici who decided

 4     to head to Tuzla.  The witness left on the afternoon of 12 July but was

 5     captured by Serb soldiers near Nova Kasaba at around 7.00 a.m. on

 6     13 July.

 7             He was taken first to the elementary school in Nova Kasaba.  Then

 8     at around 2.00 p.m., he was taken to a football pitch just outside

 9     Nova Kasaba where he saw 1.500 to 2.000 Muslim men sitting in rows

10     surrounded by armed Serb soldiers.  After a while General Mladic came to

11     the football pitch and told the Muslim men that they would be exchanged

12     and ordered that a list of their names be made.  While Mladic was

13     present, one prisoner was beaten and shot to death by the Serb soldiers,

14     but Mladic did not respond in any way.

15             In the late afternoon, buses came and drove the prisoners to

16     Bratunac.  Near Sandici, the witness saw a group of men surrounded by

17     Serb soldiers.  Further on, near Kravica, the witness saw a hangar on the

18     right of the road with four or five dead bodies at the entrance.  He also

19     heard shooting from behind the hangar.  The bus stopped for the night in

20     Bratunac.  The witness heard shooting throughout the night and four or

21     five people were taken off the bus and never came back.

22             On 14 July, the prisoners remained on the bus in Bratunac.  That

23     afternoon, a soldier told the prisoners they were going to be exchanged

24     and then the bus, along with four or five others, drove north to the

25     school in Pilica.  When the buses arrived at the Pilica school, the

Page 24122

 1     prisoners were ordered to enter the school gym which later filled up

 2     completely.  The witness also saw people sitting and standing on the

 3     stairs leading to the first floor of the school.  Later that night, the

 4     witness and four other men volunteered to get water.  They took buckets

 5     and went outside, past the football field and a tower to a water point

 6     with two fountains.

 7             As the men started to fill up the buckets, the witness heard a

 8     bus approach the school followed by the sound of shooting and people

 9     crying for help.  The guard ordered them to return to the gym as quickly

10     as possible.

11             The next day, 15 July, Serb soldiers took jewellery, watches and

12     money from the men in the gym.  That night, men were also taken out of

13     the gym and some did not return.

14             On the morning of 16 July 1995, the prisoners were told that the

15     young men were to be exchanged.  As the witness left the gym, his hands

16     were tied together behind his back.  Three buses were parked outside the

17     gym and the witness climbed onto the second bus.  Once these three buses

18     were full, they drove toward a meadow where the witness saw many dead

19     bodies.  He then watched as men were taken off the first bus in groups of

20     ten, escorted by three or four soldiers to the meadow where the other

21     dead bodies were and then shot individually and killed.

22             The witness's bus was next.  He was in the third group that was

23     taken from the bus.  He walked to the meadow where the other bodies were

24     and was ordered to stop.  There, a group of ten Serb soldiers shot at the

25     prisoners from automatic rifles and an M-84 machine-gun.  The witness

Page 24123

 1     threw himself face down on the ground as they opened fire and another

 2     dead prisoner fell across his head.

 3             The witness then heard soldiers being given an order to shot

 4     people individually.  He was shot in the back, but the bullet passed

 5     under his left armpit and through his shirt and he was only scratched.

 6             The witness testified that groups of prisoners continued to be

 7     brought to that meadow and killed for approximately four more hours into

 8     the afternoon.

 9             That evening a vehicle arrived and unloaded more bodies at the

10     site.  The witness spent the night in the killing field and the next day

11     under a bridge.  From his hiding place, he heard the sounds of machines

12     working all day.  He met an older man, and they escaped together but

13     eventually turned themselves in when they became exhausted.  The witness

14     was then taken to the Batkovic camp and finally released on

15     26 December 1995.

16        Q.   Witness, I have a few additional questions for you.

17             If I can have 65 ter 2750 in e-court.

18             Witness, do you recognise what this photo is?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Can you tell the Court what it is?

21        A.   That is the warehouse where I saw four or five dead men at the

22     entrance in Kravica.

23        Q.   I'm going to ask the usher to assist you.  If you can just mark

24     on this picture where exactly you saw those four or five bodies.

25        A.   [Marks]

Page 24124

 1        Q.   And can you write -- can you put your witness code, KDZ333.  If

 2     you can write that.  That's KDZ333 just in the bottom right-hand corner.

 3        A.   [Marks]

 4        Q.   And today's dated, the 2nd of the 2nd 2012.

 5        A.   [Marks]

 6             MR. MITCHELL:  I'd like to tender that, Mr. President.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  That will be the next Prosecution Exhibit.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P4346, Your Honours.

 9             MR. MITCHELL:  Can I have 65 ter 2946 in e-court now.

10        Q.   Do you recognise what's shown in this photo?

11        A.   That's the school in Pilica.

12        Q.   I'd like you to mark a few things on this photo again.  The first

13     thing, can you mark the road that the buses arrived on and where they

14     parked when they reached the school.

15        A.   They took this road here.  They parked here, and then we got in

16     through this entrance and then we were detained here in this hall.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the last sentence.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Could you repeat the last sentence.

19             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] That's where I went to get water.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Could you get -- put number 2 for that -- for the

21     place you went to fetch water.

22             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  And number 1 for your place in the cell or

24     room you were in.

25             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

Page 24125

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 2             MR. MITCHELL:

 3        Q.   If you can write your witness code on that again, KDZ333, and

 4     then today's date.

 5        A.   [Marks]

 6             JUDGE KWON:  This will be Exhibit P4347.

 7             MR. MITCHELL:  I'd like then to go to Exhibit P4308, page 209 in

 8     e-court.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  209 in e-court.  199 in hard copy.

10                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

11             JUDGE KWON:  The Registry was not able to keep the image that was

12     marked before.  Could the witness --

13             MR. MITCHELL:  I can go through it again, Mr. President.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

15             MR. MITCHELL:

16        Q.   My apologies, Witness.  If you can mark on this image again the

17     road where the buses came and when they parked.

18        A.   [Marks]

19        Q.   Where you entered the gym.

20        A.   [Marks]

21        Q.   And then put a number 2 where the water point?

22        A.   [Marks]

23        Q.   And you've put a number 1 on top of the gym; is that right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Can you put your witness code on this again and then today's

Page 24126

 1     date.  It's KDZ333.

 2        A.   [Marks]

 3             MR. MITCHELL:  And once this is saved, if I can go to 4308,

 4     page 209 in e-court.

 5        Q.   Witness, do you recognise what's in this photo?

 6        A.   The other side of the school.  So when we were where the water

 7     was when the bus was heard, it came here.

 8        Q.   One moment.  The usher will come and help you.  Okay.  If you can

 9     mark where the buses came.

10        A.   Roughly here, this side.  That's where the bus came.  I couldn't

11     see.  It was dark already.  We were where the water was, down there, a

12     bit lower.  Then here this is where gunfire was heard, where people were

13     being killed.  Here, behind the school.

14        Q.   And for the record, the witness has marked a line on the left

15     where the buses were, a circle where the prisoners were, and the marking

16     on the far right is the water point.

17             If you can put your witness code, KDZ333, and then the date.

18        A.   [Marks]

19             MR. MITCHELL:  If I can tender that, please.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  This will be Exhibit P4348.

21             MR. MITCHELL:  If we can then go to page 213 of this document in

22     e-court.

23        Q.   Witness, do you recognise what's in this photo?

24        A.   Yes.  That's the well where the water was, where I went to get

25     water.

Page 24127

 1        Q.   Can we go to page 222 in e-court now.  Do you recognise what's in

 2     this photo?

 3        A.   Yes.  That's the farm where people were being killed.

 4        Q.   I want you to mark a few things on this image.  First, can you

 5     mark the road where the buses came from the school and into the farm.

 6        A.   They took this road, and they stopped here.  So they took people

 7     out of the buses, brought them here, and they killed them there, in this

 8     area.

 9        Q.   Can you put a number 1 next to the line that the buses came in on

10     and then a number 2 next to the line where the people were taken into the

11     field.

12        A.   [Marks]

13        Q.   And a number 3 next to the circle where the people were killed.

14        A.   [Marks]

15        Q.   And then your -- if you can put your witness code, KDZ333, and

16     today's date.

17        A.   [Marks]

18             MR. MITCHELL:  And can I tender that, please.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  P4349.

20             MR. MITCHELL:  I have one last question.  If we can go into

21     private session briefly.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

23                           [Private session]

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 24128

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6                           [Open session]

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Sir, your previous testimony given in the Krstic

 8     trial was admitted here in lieu of your examination-in-chief.  You will

 9     be further asked by Mr. Karadzic in his cross-examination.  In answering

10     the question, please bear in mind that you need to put a pause between

11     the question and answer because both of you will be speaking the same

12     language.

13             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Witness.

17        A.   Good afternoon.

18        Q.   I do apologise, because I have to ask you the following:  Should

19     I consider that everything you said is correct and reliable?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Thank you.  We have to pause, both of us.  Tell us, please, did

22     you have veterans' service recognised?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Thank you.  From which date to which date?

25        A.   I think from 1992 until 1995.

Page 24129

 1        Q.   The 17th of April, 1992, until which date 1995?

 2        A.   I don't know exactly which date.

 3        Q.   The 17th of April is correct, isn't it?

 4        A.   I think so.

 5        Q.   Where did you become a soldier of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

 6     first of all the Territorial Defence and then the Army of

 7     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 8        A.   In Srebrenica.

 9        Q.   In which -- in which village in?

10        A.   Suceska.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Well, this puzzles me a bit, on the basis of your

12     previous statements, I have this information to the effect that you were

13     in a different municipality until the 25th of April; is that correct?

14        A.   A different municipality?

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we briefly go into private

16     session?

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

18                           [Private session]

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 24130

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13                           [Open session]

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   And then you were a soldier of the Territorial Defence of

16     Suceska, which later became -- or, rather, grew into the

17     281st Light Brigade?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Is it true that the commander of that brigade was -- you tell me

20     who.

21        A.   Zulfo.

22        Q.   Zulfo Tursunovic; right?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Was he a trained officer?

25        A.   I don't think so.

Page 24131

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Have you given a few statements in

 2     Bosnia-Herzegovina, first once in Bosnia-Herzegovina, then to the

 3     investigators of the OTP, then to the state commission, and then once

 4     again to the investigators of the OTP?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   How did it come about that in your statements given to Bosnian

 7     authorities you failed to mention you had been an active soldier?

 8        A.   They did not ask me.  And it was not my duty, strictly speaking,

 9     to give them a statement at all.

10        Q.   Very well.  And when you were giving a statement to the OTP

11     investigators, was the interview attended by anyone else from the

12     BH Army?

13        A.   How do you mean?

14        Q.   Who was present at that interview?

15        A.   I wouldn't be able to tell you exactly.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see 65 ter 22378 without

17     broadcasting.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Do you see the last line here listing the present:

20             [In English] "Names of all persons present during interview."

21             [Interpretation] You don't have to read, but do you see this

22     line?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   In which capacity -- in fact, did you provide this statement

25     requesting protective measures?  Has your request for protective measures

Page 24132

 1     been standing all this time?

 2        A.   I don't know.

 3        Q.   Did you give a statement here as a suspect or as a victim?

 4        A.   Where [as interpreted] was this statement given?

 5        Q.   20th of August, 1996.  You speak English.  Look at it.  It will

 6     be clear.

 7        A.   I don't remember this.

 8        Q.   Did you give your statement as a suspect or as a victim?  Did

 9     anyone tell you you were a suspect?

10        A.   Suspected of what?

11        Q.   Just asking.  So you spoke to them as a victim.

12        A.   Of course a victim.

13        Q.   In what capacity were these two men present at the interview?

14        A.   I don't know who these people are.

15        Q.   Did you have a consultation with any official in

16     Bosnia-Herzegovina related to providing a statement?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   What was your position at the time?  You were rather young,

19     weren't you, when you joined the army?

20        A.   Yes.  I was holding a position on the front line.  We were on the

21     front line.

22        Q.   Thank you.  When Srebrenica became a protected area, elderly men

23     were demobilised and then the brigade was diminished from 1 .400 to

24     several hundred soldiers.

25        A.   I don't know.

Page 24133

 1        Q.   Do you know that those who were older were then demobilised when

 2     Srebrenica became a protected area?

 3        A.   When that happened, there was no army.  All the weapons were

 4     taken away.  It became a protected area.

 5        Q.   And this brigade of -- commanded by Zulfo Tursunovic did not

 6     exist during the protected area period?

 7        A.   It did not.

 8        Q.   And who prevented then the UNPROFOR from entering the so-called

 9     Bandera Triangle that was controlled by this brigade?

10        A.   I wouldn't know.

11        Q.   How were you equipped while you were in the unit, if you had any

12     equipment in terms of weapons, equipment, boots, ammunition?

13        A.   We were not.  I didn't have a weapon.  I didn't have a uniform.

14     I didn't have anything.

15        Q.   What were you wearing on the front line, your own clothes?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Are you aware of the actions and operations carried out by this

18     unit from the enclave before the protected area period and during that

19     period?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   I'm waiting for the interpretation, just so you know why I'm

22     making a pause.

23             Were you part of that unit on January 23rd?

24        A.   23rd January.  Yes.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Did you take part in the attack by that unit against

Page 24134

 1     Kravica on Christmas Day 1993?

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Okay.

 3             MR. MITCHELL:  Just to clarify the 23 January reference, perhaps

 4     that should have a year.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] January 1993.  It's the year 1993,

 6     the whole year.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Let's continue.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   How come you were absent from the unit on the day of that attack?

10        A.   I just didn't go into action anywhere.  I don't know.  I didn't

11     even know about that operation.

12        Q.   Did you find out later about that operation in Kravica and the

13     attack against the Serbs on Christmas Day 1993?

14        A.   I heard about it later.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know about other operations before the

16     protected area period and during that period?  Did you know about the

17     operations undertaken within the area of Srebrenica?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   You didn't take part in any of these attacks?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   Did you receive any commendation as a soldier?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   Your military service as a war veteran was recognised from day

24     one to the last day; right?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 24135

 1        Q.   This 281st Bosnian Light Brigade, how many platoons and companies

 2     did it have?

 3        A.   I don't know.

 4        Q.   In what battalion did you serve?

 5        A.   I don't know the exact name.

 6        Q.   Who was your commander?

 7        A.   I know Zulfo was the chief commander.  I don't know any others.

 8        Q.   You don't know who your direct commander was of your platoon,

 9     company, battalion?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   You don't know any commanding officer or commander apart from

12     Zulfo Tursunovic?

13        A.   I know that Naser was in Srebrenica, and who else was there, I

14     don't know exactly.

15        Q.   Who gave you your daily assignments in the field?

16        A.   Nobody.  We had to go to the front line every day.  We had to be

17     there every day and that's it.

18        Q.   And where was the line?

19        A.   On the hill behind the village.

20        Q.   All right.  Well, we'll skip that then.  You didn't hear about

21     those excursions into Visnjica in June 1995, the attack on the Serbian

22     village of Visnjica, the killing and burning of civilians?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   Can we go into private session for a minute?

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

Page 24136

 1                           [Private session]

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11                           [Open session]

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We are now in open session, Mr. Karadzic.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Let's go straight to July 1995.  You were still recorded as a

16     member of the 281st Brigade and that's why your veteran status was

17     recognised.  Is it the case that in the Tolimir case you were shown a

18     document drafted by the commander of the 3rd Corps of the BH Army and a

19     brief by General Delic dated 16 June?

20             1D5023 is the document I'd like to call up.

21             Until then, Witness, you mentioned Jaglici.  Is that close to

22     Susnjari?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Before moving into the breakthrough, did everyone rejoin their

25     brigade in Susnjari?

Page 24137

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   Look at this, please.  This is 16 July 1995, Rasim Delic, army

 3     commander.

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Could we see page 3.  Could we zoom in on item 3 for the witness.

 6     It says:

 7              "The units of the 28th Division are pulling out of Srebrenica

 8     and fighting their way out.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  [Overlapping speakers] Yes.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] English page 4.

11             JUDGE KWON:  We have it, Mr. Karadzic.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Towards the top, number 3.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   "Units of the 28th Division are pulling out of Srebrenica and

15     fighting their way out.  They have remained compact.  They have scored

16     success after success in the temporarily occupied territory.  They have

17     inflicted great losses on the aggressor.  So far, they have eight

18     Chetniks in captivity alive.  Units of the 28th Division have linked up

19     with the infiltrated units of the 2nd Corps.  Their joint forces have

20     continued fighting in the temporarily occupied territory.  It's expected

21     they will fully link up with these units.  Activities are underway to

22     exploit the successor units carrying out the breakthrough."

23             So your commander says that you have restructured, that you are

24     still compact, and that there was fighting by you together with the units

25     of the 2nd Corps.  Was there any fighting on your way?

Page 24138

 1        A.   Not that I have seen.  From Jaglici to Kasaba where I was taken

 2     prisoner, I did not see any fighting anywhere.  We were just beaten by

 3     the Serb soldiers.

 4        Q.   Were these serious attacks by the Serbian troops?

 5        A.   Of course they were.  They shelled us the whole time.

 6        Q.   Is it true that in one place you saw about 300 dead soldiers of

 7     the BH Army?  Don't you think that some Serb troops were also killed on

 8     that occasion?

 9        A.   No.  It was an ambush.

10        Q.   Are you sure that 300 fighting men were killed, and do you know

11     at least one of those names?

12        A.   I don't know any names.  Those were not fighters.  Those were

13     civilians.  I didn't see any soldiers with rifles there.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see 1D -- can this document

15     be admitted first.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

17             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, again the citation to, You saw 300

18     dead soldiers of the BH Army, can I have a citation to that?  It doesn't

19     match what I'm looking at in his prior statements.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  I'm asking Mr. Karadzic for the citation.  Can

21     I ask the witness whether he saw about 300 dead soldiers or civilians.

22             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] Yes.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the previous document be

24     admitted?

25             JUDGE KWON:  I remember having seen a similar document, but in

Page 24139

 1     any event, we'll admit this.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D5051, Your Honours.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D5012, please.

 4             I apologise to Mr. Mitchell.  If the witness had confirmed I

 5     would not have called up the document, it would have saved some time.

 6             MR. MITCHELL:  I've found the citation now, Mr. President.  It's

 7     in another statement.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   This is your statement which you provided on the 20th of July,

11     one week after the events; right?

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

13             MR. MITCHELL:  This is probably something the witness can deal

14     with, but I think Mr. Karadzic should take another look at the date.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could this not be broadcast.  First

16     of all, it should be changed.  20th July, 2006.  I apologise.  And now

17     can we go to the next page, page2.  In Serbian it is the third paragraph.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   It says here:

20             "From there, we set out in the direction of Pobudska Kamenica

21     where we joined up with one part of the first group, the Chetniks

22     surrounded us and opened fire at us, and there were over 300 killed and a

23     significant number of wounded. "

24             What happened to those who were killed?

25        A.   They just stayed there.

Page 24140

 1        Q.   And what about the wounded?  Did you manage to save them?

 2        A.   Yes.  I believe that they started carrying them, but there was

 3     another round of shelling and they were left behind after that.

 4        Q.   So it is possible that some of those wounded also died?

 5        A.   Yes I suppose so, yes.

 6        Q.   Do you know who buried them and where?

 7        A.   Nobody.

 8        Q.   Did General Mladic have those wounded in mind when he said that

 9     he would send somebody out to assist them?

10        A.   I suppose so.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D2052 under seal, Your Honours.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   After leaving Susnjari, you split into two groups.  How come you

17     went in the direction of Jaglici or whatever the name of that place is?

18        A.   Well, I heard from -- from other people that they were heading

19     towards Susnjari and that they were proceeding towards Tuzla from there.

20        Q.   And you heard that on the 10th or the 11th of July?

21        A.   It was on the 11th of July that I heard that.

22        Q.   And then on the 11th of July, you set out at what time?

23        A.   In the afternoon.  It was already dark when I arrived there.

24        Q.   And what about the civilians?  What were they supposed to do?

25        A.   They were supposed to head towards Potocari.

Page 24141

 1        Q.   Did some members of your family go to Potocari?

 2        A.   Yes.  My father, my brother, my wife, everybody went there.

 3        Q.   How old was your father at that time?

 4        A.   Fifty.

 5        Q.   And your brother?

 6        A.   Fifteen.

 7        Q.   You stated that you did not dare go to Potocari, that you were

 8     afraid.  Was that because you were a soldier?

 9        A.   No, I was not a soldier.  They would have killed me like they did

10     everybody else who went there.

11        Q.   How come you were not a soldier?  You were recognised as a

12     soldier from the 17th of April until 1995.

13        A.   It was a protected area, so that was recognised but it was not up

14     to me.  It was not my doing.

15        Q.   So you split into two groups.  Who commanded?  Who issued the

16     order to split the column into two a groups?

17        A.   I don't know who did that.  When I joined them it was already

18     dark.  There was a huge field full of people, some 15.000 people, and I

19     heard shouts that we should form a column.  I spent the entire night

20     there, and then we set out on the following day.  I don't know exactly

21     who it was who ordered us to form columns, how that came about.

22        Q.   And what about the other column?  Did they also attack and

23     suffered losses?

24        A.   What column are you talking about?  It was one and only column.

25        Q.   However, in your statement you said that you joined up the other

Page 24142

 1     part of the column.

 2        A.   I don't understand what you're asking me.

 3        Q.   Can we see the statement again.  And then the second page again.

 4             You say here that there were markings telling you that the fields

 5     were mined.  Who placed those marks?  Was it Tursunovic who ordered

 6     somebody to do that?

 7        A.   I don't know.

 8        Q.   It says here:

 9             "By Kamenica where we gathered together with some people from the

10     first group, and that's where they were attacked by the Chetniks."

11             In other words, there were two groups; right?  And you joined

12     near Kamenica.

13        A.   It's a misunderstanding.  A group that headed out before me

14     stopped there and rested there.  We caught up with them, and that's when

15     we were surrounded, where fire was opened at us from an ambush.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Is it true that Zulfo Tursunovic was at the head of

17     the column together with armed men and that the back of the column was

18     secured by Golic?

19        A.   As far as that is concerned, I did not see Zulfo Tursunovic, and

20     I never heard about him while I was there.

21        Q.   Okay.  We have clarified that.  We can move on.  You said that on

22     the 11th, you were told that able-bodied men should go to Jaglici; right?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   How were you dressed?  How were you equipped?  Did you wear

25     layers?  Was it in keeping with the season of the year or differently?

Page 24143

 1     Did you wear a uniform?  Did you have several trousers, pairs of

 2     trousers, on you?

 3        A.   I -- I put on what I had.  I could not go shopping before I set

 4     out.

 5        Q.   Was it hot?

 6        A.   Of course it was hot.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  How many ambushes did you encounter, and how many

 8     times were you attacked by artillery?

 9        A.   As soon as we set out from Jaglici we hit an and bush, and as far

10     as shelling's concerned, that lasted all the time.  There was a major

11     ambush near Kamenica where we suffered about 300 dead and a significant

12     number of injured, and then the fourth time where I was captured near

13     Kasaba.

14        Q.   You say that some people were killed by the falling trees; is

15     that correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   You say that the ambush near Kamenica was the second ambush and

18     that it happened around 6.00 in the afternoon.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat his answer.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Could you repeat your last answer, because your

21     answer was so quick the interpreters couldn't hear that.

22             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] Yes, that was in the evening.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   It was the second ambush, and the first one was somewhere else.

25        A.   It was not a major ambush.  They just opened fire at us.  They

Page 24144

 1     came close to us and they opened fire.

 2        Q.   Did many people die as a result of artillery fire, the constant

 3     artillery fire?

 4        A.   Yes.  Well, I was in the column.  I could see dead people lying

 5     around in the forest.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Please bear with me.  I would like to skip a few

 7     things.  I simply have to do that because of the time.

 8             Help us understand.  You continued walking towards Nova Kasaba;

 9     is that correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And then on the 13th in the morning you were captured.

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Please make a break.  I'll do the same.  How many of you were

14     there when you were captured?

15        A.   Ten.

16        Q.   And you also saw some dead people in that place.

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And then you were taken to the school in Nova Kasaba; right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And then some 20 minutes later you were given some water; right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   There were no UN soldiers anywhere near?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   The Serbian soldiers took care of your wounded.  They tended to

25     their wounds; right?

Page 24145

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And then you were sent to the football pitch.  When was that?

 3        A.   In the afternoon.

 4        Q.   Around 2.00 it says here; right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   How long did you stay at the football pitch?

 7        A.   We stayed there until the evening, perhaps an hour.

 8        Q.   When did General Mladic appear?

 9        A.   I don't know exactly when.  When I arrived there, perhaps an hour

10     or an hour and a half later he came.

11        Q.   Between 3.00 and 4.00; right?

12        A.   I'm not sure.

13        Q.   Very well.  And how long was his speech, General Mladic's speech?

14        A.   I don't know exactly.

15        Q.   He said, did he not, that you were not criminals, that you would

16     be exchanged?  Did he or somebody else mention an offer for you to join

17     Fikret Abdic?

18        A.   He did not say that we were not criminals.  He said that they

19     were not criminals.  And as for Fikret Abdic, I never heard that.

20        Q.   And then Mladic said that he wanted to send patrols through the

21     forest to collect the wounded and to bury the dead according to the

22     instructions of their families; is that correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   At the end of his speech did Mladic ask for a list of the

25     detainees to be made?

Page 24146

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   What happened to the list?

 3        A.   I believe that he took it with him.

 4        Q.   Very well.  How many of you were there at the football stadium?

 5        A.   I believe that there must have been about 2- or 3.000 people.

 6        Q.   The number keeps growing, Witness.  So far there was about 1.500.

 7     All of a sudden there's 2- to 3.000.

 8        A.   I'm not sure.

 9        Q.   So their names could be listed so quickly that Mladic could take

10     it with him.

11        A.   No.  It didn't happen that fast, and I didn't claim for a fact

12     that he did.  I said that I believed that he did.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And can we now look at the

14     booklet -- or, rather, Mr. Ruez's book.  I believe that what I want to

15     show the witness is 242.

16             [In English] May I ask the Prosecution to lend me once again?

17             JUDGE KWON:  That's Exhibit 4308.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, no, no.  This is not the right

19     one.  I'm interested in the stadium, the -- the football pitch in

20     Nova Kasaba.  That's what I want.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Page 26 to 30.  Probably you wanted to see page 28.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Excellency.  Thank you.

23     Twenty-eight.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Thank you.  Is this the football pitch we're talking about?

Page 24147

 1        A.   I think so.

 2        Q.   Where were you in this group, in which part of the group?

 3        A.   I believe somewhere in the middle.

 4        Q.   And who are the people standing in front of the group?

 5        A.   You believe -- you mean here in the -- at the front of the

 6     picture?

 7        Q.   Yes.

 8        A.   I don't know exactly.

 9        Q.   Are these detainees or Serbian soldiers?

10        A.   I'm not sure.

11        Q.   And when you started walking, did you start walking all together?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   Where did you go from here?

14        A.   We were loaded onto buses and then in the direction of

15     Konjevic Polje.

16        Q.   You said that you saw some four or five buses; is that right?

17        A.   Yes, it is.

18        Q.   Thank you.  We no longer need the photo.

19             You say that you were transported to Bratunac; right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   You did not have a seat on the bus.  You had to stand; right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   You were standing in the middle of the bus; right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   What was the time?

Page 24148

 1        A.   Perhaps an hour before dark.

 2        Q.   Do you remember whether the driver switched on the lights on the

 3     bus?

 4        A.   I can't remember.  I don't think so.

 5        Q.   What about the lights in the bus?  Were they on?

 6        A.   No, I don't remember.

 7        Q.   How tall are you, Witness?

 8        A.   5.5 foot.

 9        Q.   Five feet.

10        A.   Yes, feet.

11        Q.   5.5.  Okay.  And you say that the bus was full.  How could you

12     see something through the window of such a full bus as you were standing

13     in the middle?

14        A.   Well, you know how high the windows on the bus are, you can see

15     through them when you're sitting down.

16        Q.   But you weren't sitting down?

17        A.   That's true.  I was not sitting down.  I had an even better view

18     standing up.

19        Q.   So you're saying that when you are standing you can see further

20     away than when you are sitting down.  From that angle you can see better

21     than from a lower angle as --

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And there were other people to the right and to the left of you;

24     right?

25        A.   The other people were sitting down.  They had seats.

Page 24149

 1        Q.   Only you were standing?

 2        A.   No, not only me.  Between the rows in the aisle people were

 3     standing, and the others were sitting down.  All the seats were occupied.

 4        Q.   You say that at the time you were departing you saw some people

 5     sitting on the Sandici meadow surrounded by soldiers.

 6        A.   Right.

 7        Q.   And in view of the season, how -- what could have been the time?

 8        A.   I don't know exactly.  It wasn't dark yet.

 9        Q.   Do you know when the killing in the co-operative at Kravica

10     happened?

11        A.   I don't know.

12        Q.   But are you sure that you saw four or five?  Sorry, we have to

13     make pauses between questions or answers.

14             But you are sure that in the place you marked you saw four or

15     five bodies.

16        A.   I'm sure about that.

17        Q.   However, in your 2004 statement, you say that you had to keep

18     your head down on the bus.

19        A.   Correct.  That's right, but I still managed to see, because I

20     looked where we were going, where they were taking us.

21        Q.   Can you tell us anything about mutual fighting between you, by

22     accident or intentionally, among Muslim soldiers?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   You never even heard of it?

25        A.   No.

Page 24150

 1        Q.   Did you see or hear about any suicides?

 2        A.   Suicides, I'm not sure.  I think some happened, but I'm not sure.

 3        Q.   So you were on the bus, and you arrived at Bratunac, and you

 4     remained on the bus through the night.  That's what you say.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   At what points did the civilian protection give you water?

 7        A.   We only received water in Kasaba when we were in the schoolhouse,

 8     and we also got water in Bratunac but not while we were standing there

 9     but at a different location.  When the bus stopped they give us water.

10     In fact, they threw a hose through the window.  Not everyone got water,

11     but they pumped water through that hose.

12        Q.   You say that on that bus there was no driver and no guards during

13     that night.

14        A.   That's right.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Those men who were guarding you at the football pitch

16     were younger soldiers, and none of them wore the white police belt, and

17     there were 15 to 20; correct?

18        A.   Which football field?

19        Q.   I skipped a bit.  Before you arrived to Bratunac, at the school

20     house?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   When did you set out from Bratunac and what day of the week was

23     it?

24        A.   I think it was the 14 -- the 14th.

25        Q.   What time did you leave Bratunac?

Page 24151

 1        A.   I think it was in the afternoon.

 2        Q.   And you headed towards Zvornik.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Was it the same bus?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Was it the same number?  Did it remain the same number of people

 7     on that bus?  All the same people?

 8        A.   No.  Those who were taken out that night never returned.

 9        Q.   But the number of buses remained the same?

10        A.   I think so.  I'm not sure.

11        Q.   And those were buses owned by the Boksit mine?

12        A.   I'm not sure if all of them belonged to the Boksit mine, but one

13     did.

14        Q.   What time did you arrive at Pilica?

15        A.   We got there before dark, at dusk, late afternoon.

16        Q.   Can you tell the Trial Chamber where the POW prison in Batkovic

17     was.  And if you are going from Bratunac towards Batkovic, would you have

18     to go the same way, just not turn off towards Pilica?

19        A.   I don't know exactly.  I think the same road goes that way except

20     you have to make a turn to Pilica.

21        Q.   Could you help me with line 15.  You said you were not sure that

22     all the buses belonged to the Boksit mine, but one you were sure did

23     because you saw it.

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   How large were these buses?  Were they regular buses?

Page 24152

 1        A.   No, it was double one, like an accordion, joint between two parts

 2     of the bus.

 3        Q.   One of those.

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And then you arrived and you were taken to the gym.

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Somebody shot at the ceiling there; right?

 8        A.   Yes, Serb soldiers.

 9        Q.   It was a volley of automatic gunfire, right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And anyone who did not see the shooter could only hear the

12     shooting; right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Already on the 15th the atmosphere changed somewhat.

15     Was it a different shift or the same, because they started asking for

16     your jewellery, watches, money, valuables.

17        A.   I think it was a different set of people.

18        Q.   They also took away your razors, knives, everything.

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   At that point you were given to know that those among you who had

21     relatives or friends abroad could make a phone call and tell them that

22     they could pay ransom and buy your freedom?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Weren't you also told that you could join Fikret Abdic?

25        A.   I don't remember that.

Page 24153

 1        Q.   While I'm looking for a reference, could you tell the

 2     Trial Chamber who Fikret Abdic was?

 3        A.   I heard the name.  I have no clue.

 4        Q.   May I be of assistance?  Is it the case that Fikret Abdic was

 5     also a Muslim leader but of a different orientation than

 6     Alija Izetbegovic and opposed to him?

 7        A.   I don't know.  I was not involved or interested in politics.

 8        Q.   But you know this much:  Was Fikret Abdic a Muslim leader?

 9        A.   I have no idea.

10        Q.   Is he a Muslim?

11        A.   Probably.  How do I know?

12        Q.   Let's look at 65 ter 22379.  That's the statement we've just

13     looked at, page 4.

14             May I see the Serbian version of page 4.  That's a passage where

15     it says you were offered to join Fikret Abdic.  Sorry, my mistake.  Could

16     we see 1D5012.  1D5012.

17             Did you state the -- to the state commission in Tuzla in charge

18     of collecting information about war crimes, did you make a statement?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Then help me find the passage in this statement where it says you

21     were offered to join Fikret Abdic.  The penultimate paragraph, page 3 in

22     Serbian, please.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

24             MR. MITCHELL:  The passage Dr. Karadzic is looking for is the

25     bottom paragraph on page 3, in English as well.

Page 24154

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   "It's true that the Chetniks asked us if any of us wanted to join

 3     Fikret Abdic, but I don't know if anybody accepted that."

 4             Is that right?

 5        A.   I don't remember this, but it's possible.

 6        Q.    You say that somebody asked for 200 Deutschmark from those who

 7     wanted to be taken to Sarajevo.

 8        A.   To Sarajevo.

 9        Q.   Read this.  You say maybe this happened in other rooms; correct?

10     Page 3, after the words "Fikret Abdic," you say it's true that offer was

11     made, but you don't remember anyone saying they charged 200 marks in

12     exchange for transportation to Sarajevo.  You say it may have happened in

13     other rooms.

14        A.   I don't remember that.

15        Q.   Did you -- do you remember this offer to join Fikret Abdic?

16        A.   They were only making fun of us and taunting us.

17        Q.   Did you know that Fikret Abdic had an agreement signed with the

18     Serbs in 1993?  Why would that be a taunt, and why would they be making

19     fun of you?

20             JUDGE KWON:  He said he didn't know Mr. Abdic.

21             We'll have a break now for 15 minutes and continue more, only for

22     15 minutes.  That's all we can make for today.  And for the remainder of

23     the hearing of today, only Judge Baird and myself will be sitting

24     pursuant to 15 bis.  We'll take a break for 15 minutes.

25             MR. ROBINSON:  Also, Mr. President, I'll have to excuse myself.

Page 24155

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Well noted.  Thank you.

 2                           --- Break taken at 3.16 p.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 3.29 p.m.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Witness, is it true that when you arrived, five volunteers took

 8     buckets and went down to the fountain to get water?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   However, in another place you said that three of you volunteered,

11     took tubs and went to a nearby brook.

12        A.   Brook?  What brook?  Where did you find a brook?

13        Q.   2379.  I believe that's the documents, page 4.  It's a statement

14     given to OTP investigators.  1D5012.  On page 3 you say that six of you

15     volunteered to carry three tubs and to go to the brook.

16        A.   It looked to me like a brook from up there where this water was,

17     this sort of pond.

18        Q.   So you were volunteers to get water?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   To whom did you bring that water?

21        A.   The prisoners detained in the gym, the Muslims.

22        Q.   Thank you.  How do you explain this difference, this discrepancy

23     in the statements?

24        A.   Which discrepancy?

25        Q.   Let's look at what you said here.  You said at one point that you

Page 24156

 1     took three tubs and in another place you said it was five buckets.  Once

 2     you went to the fountain, and in another place you went to a brook.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And that makes no difference to you; right?

 5        A.   It's possible that I went to fetch water twice.  Maybe I went

 6     once before that.  I don't know.

 7        Q.   Then you saw some buses arrive.  One or more?

 8        A.   I heard the sound.

 9        Q.   You saw the sound.  You didn't see it.

10        A.   No.  It was dark.

11        Q.   You also heard shooting, but you didn't -- thank you for your

12     patience and your efforts, interpreters.  Interpreters are really finding

13     the two of us difficult.

14             But you did not see the killing again.  You only heard the

15     shooting.

16        A.   Correct.

17        Q.   Did some people provide information about family who are prepared

18     to pay ransom for them?

19        A.   Yes, a few.  They were take away.

20        Q.   And never returned?

21        A.   It was where they executed people on that farm, on that meadow.

22        Q.   We don't have time, so we have to skip passages.  People's hands

23     were tied.

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Could we briefly see P4347.  Are you saying that before this

Page 24157

 1     building, five buses parked in this space?

 2        A.   Five buses.

 3        Q.   Does this space fit five buses?

 4        A.   I'm not sure there were five.  You mean when they were taking us

 5     for the execution or when we arrived?

 6        Q.   When you arrived.

 7        A.   I don't know.  We didn't get off the bus all of us at once.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Karadzic repeat the number.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the witness be allowed a

10     possibility to mark something with blue pen.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Karadzic repeat the exhibit number.

12             JUDGE KWON:  I think you would like the witness to mark on this

13     exhibit.  No.  Could you repeat the number then.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 4349, P4349.  It was admitted

15     earlier today.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   You were taken in groups of ten; right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Can you show us the place where you were standing.

21        A.   When they were killing us, when -- what do you mean where I was

22     standing?

23        Q.   Yes.  Where you were standing.  Use the blue pen and mark the

24     place where you were standing.

25        A.   I don't know exactly where.  It was somewhere around here in the

Page 24158

 1     field.

 2        Q.   What was that, a field?  Was it a field or a shrubbery?

 3        A.   I believe it was a shrubbery.  That was a wheat field.

 4        Q.   But there was no wheat.

 5        A.   It was either wheat or grass, but whatever it was, it was cut.

 6        Q.   So groups of ten were walking.  They were executed, and then they

 7     would return to fetch the other group of ten.

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And how long did that last?

10        A.   The whole day.

11        Q.   According to you, it started at 4.00 in the afternoon, and how

12     long did it last?

13        A.   Until nightfall.

14        Q.   And you say that your hands were tied.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   In the back?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   However, the bullet passed between your body and your arm.

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Can you explain how is it possible for a bullet to pass between

21     the body and the arm if your hands are tied behind your body?

22        A.   It passed through my jacket, between the body and the arm.

23        Q.   Very well.  And then when the shooting started, you hid under a

24     haystack; right?

25        A.   That's where I was lying all the time.  Another dead body fell on

Page 24159

 1     top of me.  I stayed there the whole day, and in the evening I tried to

 2     save myself, but there was full moon and I couldn't, so I left the place

 3     sometime in the morning.

 4        Q.   Did you not state that you spent the night in a haystack in the

 5     stubble field?

 6        A.   There were no haystacks.  There was just some dry grass and the

 7     whole field was full of dead bodies.

 8        Q.   Where was the haystack?

 9        A.   There was no haystack.  There was just dry grass scattered all

10     over the field.

11        Q.   Witness, where did you hide and below what?

12        A.   I was in that field, in that stubble field.  There was only

13     grass.  It was scattered all over the field.  There were no haystacks,

14     nothing that I could crawl into and hide beneath.

15        Q.   Was this a wheat field, and was the wheat still there?

16        A.   I'm not sure whether it was a wheat field or a grass field, but

17     it was sown already.  It was harvested already.

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  It was harvested

19     already.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   But there was so much of that that you could stay there a long

22     time fully covered in that grass?

23        A.   No.  It wasn't -- I wasn't fully covered.  Only my head was

24     covered underneath the dry grass.

25        Q.   Thank you.  I am sorry, Witness, to say that your story overlaps

Page 24160

 1     with some other stories by those who allegedly survived the execution.

 2        A.   It is not an allegation.  It is something that happened, although

 3     you say that it didn't happen.

 4        Q.   What I'm saying is that you were not there.

 5        A.   Well, you were there then, I'm sure of that.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

 7             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, that's not a proper way for

 8     Mr. Karadzic to put his case to the witness.  If he's going to put his

 9     case, then be specific.  We've heard all week what his case about

10     Branjevo Farm is, and I think under Rule 90(H) he should just come right

11     out and put it to the witness now.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   I'm putting to the witness that nobody said that the execution

14     happened there.  I am claiming that there is a centre for the education

15     of witnesses in the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and that the stories

16     coincide.  Some people say, Somebody fell on top of me, I heard what

17     people were saying, then I was wandering around the Serb territory for

18     some 15 days and so on and so forth.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Mitchell.  I'll hear from you first.

20             MR. MITCHELL:  Again, that's not a proper way to put his case,

21     saying that nobody has said an execution happened there.  We've heard a

22     lot of evidence that an execution happened there.  So if that's

23     Mr. Karadzic's case, then he should put it that way, but he shouldn't say

24     that nobody else has said that.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  If it is your case that the witness made up

Page 24161

 1     this story, you should put that to the witness, Mr. Karadzic.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   I'm saying, Witness, that people said in this courtroom that the

 4     execution didn't happen here in this place.  And I'm putting it to you

 5     that you were educated to describe events and that you were educated by

 6     the same people who educated other witnesses, that you made things up.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  I don't remember the witness -- other witness said

 8     the execution did not take place at this place, but I'll allow you to

 9     proceed, and I'll ask the witness to answer that question.

10             Yes.  Sir, could you answer the question.

11             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] Me?

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please.  Were you educated to describe events

13     in this way?

14             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] What can I tell him?  He knows it

15     only too well that things happened there, that I was there, that I was

16     brought over there.  My hands were tied.  This is the execution place.

17     Nobody can tell me that it didn't happen.  It did.  When you say that it

18     didn't happen, I really don't know how to respond.

19             JUDGE BAIRD:  Mr. Witness, I must say this:  Dr. Karadzic is

20     putting his case to you.  He is putting his case to you.  So if when you

21     heard what he puts to you, you agree, you can say yes, you agree.  If you

22     disagree, you can say no, you disagree, but he is entitled to put his

23     case to you.

24             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] Yes.  I don't agree with what he

25     says.  Of course I don't.

Page 24162

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Very well.  And then when the bullet passed between

 3     your body and your arm, in other words, the bullet missed you, then you

 4     were covered with something, and then you wandered for the next 15 days

 5     around Republika Srpska.

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And then you were captured or you surrendered and you were taken

 8     to Batkovic, to the detention camp there; right?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And then on the way to Batkovic guards stopped to have a drink

11     and the public gave you some food and some water.

12        A.   That was not on the road to Batkovic.  When I was captured, we

13     were on the bus.  They did whatever they did, and then they stopped for a

14     drink and the public gave us a drink as well, but that was not on the way

15     to Batkovic.  That was on the way to Karakaj.

16        Q.   Thank you.  In Batkovic you were registered.  Did the Red Cross

17     register you as a prisoner of war, as a former soldier of the BH Army?

18        A.   We were registered.  I don't know how we were registered.

19        Q.   How did you declare yourself?  Where did they put your name?

20        A.   A detainee, I suppose.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Did you have to work for the next two or three

22     months?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Nobody ill-treated you; right?

25        A.   Yes.  Well, to some extent.

Page 24163

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to call up 1D5029.  It

 2     should not be broadcast.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  In the meantime, we will keep this exhibit, as is,

 4     marked again by the witness.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D23, Your Honours.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   While we are waiting for the document to appear, do you know that

 8     those who were taken to work there received a lot of food, plenty of

 9     food, that everybody volunteered and everybody wanted to work?

10        A.   Yes.  You couldn't survive on what we were give -- given at the

11     camps.  I also went to work.

12        Q.   You volunteered; right?

13        A.   Yes, I did.

14        Q.   1D5029 is the document that I called up.  It should not be

15     broadcast.  Is this your site?

16        A.   No, it's not.

17        Q.   This is not your site?

18        A.   No.  This is something that I found on the computer.

19        Q.   And the YouTube does not have what it says here?

20        A.   I believe you will find this on YouTube, but this is not my site.

21        Q.   But who's statement is this that DutchBat extracted organs from

22     the population in Srebrenica?

23        A.   This is something that I found on the computer and the person who

24     stated that, his body parts were extracted.  I know him.  He is my

25     relative, and as for the rest, I have nothing to do with this.  This is

Page 24164

 1     not my site.

 2        Q.   What body part was taken from him?

 3        A.   I don't know, he says a kidney.

 4        Q.   A kidney?

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go to the following page.

 6             It seems that the two pages are not together.  First of all, can

 7     this be admitted?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  I don't know what probative value it has at all.

 9     The witness says it's not his page.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It says here that it is, and that

11     this is his story about Dutch soldiers.  I don't know whether he created

12     it or not, but it doesn't really make a difference.

13             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] I just found it on the computer,

14     and the person who made it look like this is my page, it's impossible.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes --

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at 1D53.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

18             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, if this isn't going to be admitted,

19     then I don't have any comment.

20             JUDGE KWON:  No.  We'll not admit this.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D5030 is the document I'm looking

22     for.  It should not be broadcast.  Can this be enlarged.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Is this you?

25        A.   This is really funny.  This is a funny photo.  You can do

Page 24165

 1     something like that.  Anybody can do that.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  No.  But you didn't answer the question if it's you.

 3             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] Yes.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?  And if you

 5     wish to reconsider your previous decision, it will be useful.

 6             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] This is a photo from my Facebook

 7     page, I believe.

 8             MR. MITCHELL:  I don't see what possible relevance this is.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  I was about to ask the question to Mr. Karadzic.

10     What was the relevance of this photo?

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, this is a well-equipped

12     soldier.  This is what we see.

13             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, if that's the purpose for why it's

14     being admitted then it needs a lot more foundation about when it was

15     taken, what it's meant to depict.  The photo is just in a vacuum at the

16     moment and means nothing.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Probably Mr. Witness can help us.  When was this

18     photo taken, Mr. Witness?

19             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] Perhaps five months ago.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Five months ago?

22        A.   What are you asking me?

23        Q.   What year?

24        A.   Last year.

25        Q.   In a forest with a helmet with the military equipment?  Isn't

Page 24166

 1     that a photo from the war?

 2        A.   I thought you were an educated man.  Now I can see you're not.

 3     This is a funny photo of the kind that people publish on their Facebook

 4     pages.  Anybody can do that.  I don't know what else -- what else to say.

 5        Q.   I am not sorry that I am not educated to you as Facebook, but

 6     this looks like a military presentation.

 7        A.   Yes, it looks like it but it's not what you think it is.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  All right.  We'll admit this for whatever purpose

 9     and it's for you to prove that it was taken at the time, a long time ago.

10     Yes.  We'll give the number.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D2054 under seal, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, it's about time to conclude.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let me see if I have any other

14     questions.  Just give me a minute, please.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Correction.  The exhibit should be 2054 under

16     seal.

17             JUDGE KWON:  The picture we saw is the one when you play chess

18     online, and it's a profile that you are using on Facebook.

19             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] Yes.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   When it comes to the conduct of the policemen who captured you,

22     why didn't you say anything about that in your OTP statement, that lovely

23     human conduct?  Why did you keep that a secret?

24        A.   What do you mean I didn't say anything about that?  You will find

25     it in my statement.

Page 24167

 1        Q.   But the detail regarding the cigarettes that you were given, you

 2     didn't say anything about that to the OTP investigators, did you?

 3        A.   Yes, I did.

 4        Q.   Thank you, Witness.  I really don't know what to put to you as my

 5     last question.  I simply don't have enough time.

 6        A.   Can I ask you something?

 7        Q.   No.  When I am released from the prison then you will be able to

 8     ask me.

 9        A.   I hope you will never be released.

10        Q.   So this is in your best interest, is it not?  Can I ask you, do

11     you know me personally, Witness?  Did we ever meet?

12        A.   No, we did not.

13        Q.   However, it is in your best interest for me not to be released

14     from prison?

15        A.   Well, in view of the number of crimes that were committed, you

16     shouldn't be released.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have any re-examination.

19             MR. MITCHELL:  No, I don't.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Well, first, I'd like to thank the staff for their

21     kind understanding and indulgence.  I appreciate it very much.

22             And, sir, that concludes your evidence, and on behalf of my

23     colleagues and the Tribunal, I would like to thank you for coming to

24     The Hague again to give it.  Now you're free to go.

25             The hearing is adjourned, and we will resume on Tuesday at 9.00.

Page 24168

 1                           [The witness withdrew]

 2                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.57 p.m.,

 3                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 7th day

 4                           of February, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.