1 Tuesday, 6 March 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.30 p.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Good afternoon, everyone.
7 Do you have something to raise, Mr. Robinson?
8 MR. ROBINSON: No, Mr. President.
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Will the witness take the solemn declaration,
11 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
12 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
13 WITNESS: DEAN MANNING
14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Manning.
15 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
16 JUDGE KWON: Please be seated.
17 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Mitchell.
19 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon.
20 Examination by Mr. Mitchell:
21 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Manning.
22 A. Good afternoon, sir.
23 Q. Could you please state your full name?
24 A. Your Honours, my full name is Dean Paul Manning, M-a-n-n-i-n-g.
25 Q. What's your current job?
1 A. Your Honours, I'm a member of the Australian Federal Police and
2 I'm the currently the senior police liaison officer based in Dubai in the
3 United Arab Emirates.
4 Q. How long have you been a member of the Australian Federal Police?
5 A. I joined the Australian Federal Police in 1983. I served
6 predominantly in Canberra. I also served with the United Nations in
7 Cyprus, and in 1998 I served here at the Tribunal for six years. I've
8 also worked for United Nations Oil-for-Food inquiry in New York and
9 returned to my police service in 2006.
10 Q. The six years that you were at the Tribunal you were an
11 investigator with the Office of the Prosecutor; is that right?
12 A. Your Honours, for four years I was an investigator with the
13 Srebrenica team, and for two years I was the team leader of the Croatia
14 investigations team, predominantly involved in the Milosevic trial.
15 Q. Can you describe your duties and responsibilities for that four
16 years when you were an investigator on the Srebrenica team.
17 A. Your Honours, I was a senior investigator involved in all aspects
18 of the investigation, including taking witness statements, interviewing
19 suspects, witnesses, and generally obtaining or verifying evidence, but
20 my primary duties was liaison with the Srebrenica exhumations and autopsy
21 project which was occurring in Bosnia. I liaised with the exhumations
22 autopsy team and ultimately assisted the experts in that process in
23 preparing their reports for presentation to the Court, and I also
24 summarised the work of the teams in the field and presented evidence in
25 relation to several trials.
1 Q. Can you describe -- can you describe in a little bit more detail
2 exactly what you did in this role, which sites you went to, which
3 particular items you examined. Give us an idea of that.
4 A. Your Honours, I was tasked with co-ordinating the activities of
5 the investigations team with the exhumation autopsy teams. Those teams
6 were run by experts in their field, and I provided whatever assistance
7 they would require, which also meant monitoring the exhumation process
8 and the work at the mortuary.
9 I visited all the sites connected to Srebrenica, including all
10 the execution points and all the mass graves, either after they'd been
11 exhumed, whilst they were being exhumed, or after. I visited and was
12 present at the -- at the exhumation of 11 mass graves, and over a period
13 of six years I also visited those graves on a regular basis, including
14 when the Bosnian commission for missing persons was exhuming those
16 My role was also to examine the evidence that was being obtained
17 from that process. I examined all the physical artefacts that were
18 recovered from the process in the field and in the mortuary. This
19 included shell casings, blindfolds, ligatures, identification documents,
20 and material that showed a link not only to the identity of the victims
21 but connections to Srebrenica, connections to their killing in 1995, and
22 connections to DutchBat and also items which, as I said, showed
23 identification of the victims but also their religious affiliation, that
24 being Muslim or Islamic religion.
25 Q. Can you tell us what types of experts were engaged by the OTP in
1 this process and the experts that you liaised with.
2 A. The exhumations team was normally headed by an archaeologist,
3 anthropologist, and he or she would have a number of archaeologists,
4 anthropologists at the grave sites. There would also be surveying
5 experts, police photographers, police evidence handling officers. At the
6 mortuary there were anthropologists, forensic dentists, X-ray experts.
7 And during the course of the investigation, we also employed experts such
8 as ballistics examiners who examined the shell cases from the primary and
9 secondary mass graves and were able to make links between those sites.
10 We also -- and I also worked with soil expert who examined soil from the
11 mass graves and the areas connected to executions. We also had cloth,
12 explosives, and DNA experts who examined material from the mass graves
13 and the autopsy process. We also had expert forensics teams examine some
14 of the execution points and an horologist who examined watches found on
15 the bodies within the mass graves. I worked with all those experts. I
16 helped them in providing material and access to sites. I took them to
17 the sites. I took material to them. I reviewed their expert reports and
18 I summarised those expert reports for presentation in court.
19 Q. The ICTY's forensic programme ran from 1996 to 2001; is that
21 A. That's correct, yes.
22 Q. How many mass graves were identified during this period that were
23 suspected to be Srebrenica related?
24 A. Your Honours, there were 43 mass graves directly connected to
25 Srebrenica during that part of the investigation, and I can say that
1 they -- that is a conservative numbering process. Some graves were made
2 up of sub-graves, for instance, Glogova, but we would take a conservative
3 view and number that grave as one large grave. So 43 mass graves in
4 total, including primary and secondary, but that numbering system was
5 somewhat arbitrary.
6 Q. Can you tell us how many of those graves were exhumed by the
8 A. We exhumed all the primary mass graves, 13 mass graves, and
9 another -- in total, I think we exhumed 22 mass graves, some of which
10 were -- had been robbed, such as Cancari Road -- sorry, Zeleni Road,
11 Zeleni Jadar 2 mass grave and Hodzici 1 mass grave, which we believed had
12 not been used.
13 Q. What happened to those other graves that had been identified but
14 not exhumed by the ICTY?
15 A. Your Honours, a decision was taken in 2000, 2001, to hand over
16 responsibilities for the unexhumed graves to the Bosnian commission for
17 missing persons who were then asked by the Tribunal to exhume -- remove
18 the bodies from the graves, and that team was monitored by the
19 independent commission for missing persons -- International Commission
20 for Missing Persons, ICMP, and for part of 2001, the ICTY monitored the
21 exhumation of those graves.
22 Q. Did you personally monitor --
23 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Thank you. Now you can continue.
24 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you.
25 Q. Mr. Manning, did you personally monitor any of those exhumations
1 done by the Bosnian authorities?
2 A. Yes, I did, Your Honours. In fact, I was responsible for
3 drafting the agreement and setting the process into place. It was
4 eventually agreed to by the Prosecutor. I was present at the examination
5 of the Ravnice 1 and 2 mass grave, primary mass grave, with the Bosnian
6 commission for missing persons, with ICMP and with a very small team of
7 ICTY staff. I was also present during the exhumation of Cancari Road 11,
8 and over the next two years I would visit sites as my travel in Bosnia
10 Q. Now, are you aware in addition to the graves that were handed
11 over to the Bosnian authorities by the ICTY, are you aware whether
12 they -- those authorities have located and exhumed any additional graves
13 which are suspected to be Srebrenica related?
14 A. Your Honours, I know that the Bosnian commission and ICMP have
15 continued to not only exhume the graves we handed over but locate further
16 graves which have been connected to Srebrenica, Bljeceva and other areas,
17 and I understand that their work with DNA has provided definitive links
18 to the Srebrenica missing.
19 Q. Now, you have written three reports in 2000, 2001, and 2003 which
20 summarised the findings of the various experts who were engaged by the
21 OTP; is that right?
22 A. That's correct, Your Honours. Those summary reports also
23 included details of my own examinations of the artefacts and sites as
24 well as a combination of the reports which were conducted -- created by
25 the experts and were limited to a certain period of time. So I linked
1 those expert reports from the first exhumation process up until 2001.
2 MR. MITCHELL: Mr. President, those are 65 ter numbers 2478,
3 2479, and 3937, and I'd like to tender them now if I can.
4 JUDGE KWON: Before -- you don't have any objections?
5 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, I actually do have an objection,
6 Mr. President.
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Shall we hear from you first. Mr. Robinson,
9 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President, it's our belief that to admit
10 an expert report through the testimony of a non-expert witness --
11 JUDGE KWON: I'm sorry, what is tendered is an expert report.
12 MR. ROBINSON: Well, it's quoting from expert reports.
13 JUDGE KWON: So, we'll hear from that, yes. Let's continue.
14 Yes, Mr. Robinson.
15 MR. ROBINSON: Anyway, it's our position that to admit either
16 portions of or an entire expert report through another witness violates
17 the provisions Rule 94 bis. You've previously held that Rule 94 bis is
18 lex specialis with respect to reports when deciding that you would not
19 admit any of them under Rule 92 bis, and we think that the same principle
20 would apply. Thank you.
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Can I hear from you, Mr. Mitchell.
22 MR. MITCHELL: Certainly. First, Mr. President, we're not
23 tendering any expert reports through Mr. Manning. Mr. Manning has relied
24 on two types of expert reports as source material for his report. One
25 are the reports of the archaeologists, the anthropologists, and the
1 pathologists who have already testified here at trial and those reports
2 were already in evidence.
3 There's a second set of reports that Mr. Manning has relied on
4 the conclusions from and has cited those conclusions in his report, and I
5 would submit that Mr. Manning relying on those conclusions -- or his
6 evidence relying on those conclusions is admissible for three reasons.
7 First, he has very clearly identified --
8 JUDGE KWON: Could you be more significant as regards the second
9 set of reports.
10 MR. MITCHELL: Yes. I think, Mr. President, there's --
11 JUDGE KWON: Are you referring to 2479?
12 MR. MITCHELL: 2479 is Mr. Manning's report, and in that he cites
13 to a number of underlying reports, the ballistic evidence, the horologist
14 report, the results of the examination of Pilica Dom and the Kravica
15 warehouse, the soil analysis report and the textiles report.
16 JUDGE KWON: In which he participated?
17 MR. MITCHELL: No. They are independent expert reports which
18 reached a conclusion about the particular artefacts they were examining,
19 and Mr. Manning cites to that conclusion.
20 Mr. President, the expert reports are very clearly identified.
21 This was also -- this very issue was litigated in the Popovic case and
22 the Trial Chamber there said that Mr. Manning was entitled to rely on the
23 conclusion of reports that were not before the Trial Chamber, and in
24 these circumstances the fact that the underlying source reports weren't
25 in evidence would ultimately go to the weight of Mr. Manning's evidence,
1 and that was at transcript page 18996 of the Popovic case.
2 The last point I'd like to make is most, if not all, of the
3 conclusions that Mr. Manning's relying on are already recognised as
4 adjudicated facts in this case, and I can point you to adjudicated
5 facts --
6 JUDGE KWON: Just before you -- it's okay. Could you give me by
7 way of example, probably my understanding is that he's also rely -- one
8 of the materials he's relying on is US naval criminal investigative
9 reports. Am I correct?
10 MR. MITCHELL: Yes, correct. He does cite to that report.
11 JUDGE KWON: Or US Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
13 MR. MITCHELL: Correct. So --
14 JUDGE KWON: Let's take the last one --
15 MR. MITCHELL: Certainly.
16 JUDGE KWON: -- of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
17 report. Could you give an example how he's relying on that report in his
19 MR. MITCHELL: Certainly. Mr. Manning, what his role was to send
20 the shell casings away to that bureau to analyse to see if they were
21 matches. They reported back in a report and said the following shell
22 casings indicate they came from the same gun. Mr. Manning has taken
23 those results and interpreted them and said those shell casings came from
24 these. There are match shell casings from particular sites and then he
25 has drawn a conclusion of what that means to have shell casings fired
1 from the same gun coming from a particular site. For example, there are
2 shells fired from the same gun that appear at Orahovac and then at
3 Hodzici Road 3, 4, and 5, but Mr. Manning just simply takes the
4 conclusion that these shell casings match and then he interprets that.
5 But that conclusion that there are matching shell casings is also -- has
6 been recognised as an adjudicated fact as well.
7 JUDGE KWON: I was waiting for the conclusion of French
9 So in a nutshell, Mr. Manning sent all those shell casings he
10 collected to that US institution and he received the report from that
12 MR. MITCHELL: That's correct.
13 JUDGE KWON: And how about the US naval criminal investigative
14 reports on Kravica and Pilica?
15 MR. MITCHELL: Those two sites were processed by the NCIS in
16 1996, and they took two sets of samples from -- from those two particular
17 sites. They took swabs of suspected human remains and swabs of suspected
18 explosive residue. Those samples were provided to the Office of the
19 Prosecutor, and then they were sent away to the Dutch forensic institute
20 for processing to see what results there would be. Mr. Manning describes
21 simply that these samples were taken by the NCIS, they were sent away,
22 they were analysed by the Dutch forensic institute, and then these are
23 the results that came back.
24 JUDGE KWON: A Dutch forensic report and US report the same one?
25 MR. MITCHELL: No, they're different, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE KWON: You talked about this related to Dutch forensic
3 MR. MITCHELL: Correct. There is a report which is just the
4 processing at the site at Pilica Dom, a report about the processing of
5 Kravica warehouse and then there is a completely separate report from the
6 Dutch forensic institute about where they analysed --
7 JUDGE KWON: Just deal with it -- with it one by one. So US
8 report, the US naval and criminal investigative reports on Kravica and
9 Pilica was based upon the material collected during the --
10 MR. MITCHELL: During the on-site investigation in 1996.
11 JUDGE KWON: Very well. How is Dutch forensic report related to
12 the investigation at the ICTY?
13 MR. MITCHELL: The samples that were taken by the, NCIS were
14 given to the Office of the Prosecutor. The Office of the Prosecutor then
15 sent them away to the Dutch forensic institute to be analysed. So
16 those --
17 JUDGE KWON: I'm sorry, you said NCIS were given to the Office of
18 the Prosecutor. What did you mean?
19 MR. MITCHELL: The naval criminal investigative service took
20 those samples in 1996 from those sites and provided the samples to the
21 Office of the Prosecutor, the physical samples of suspected explosive
22 residue and suspected human remains. Then the Office of the Prosecutor
23 sent those samples to the Dutch forensic institute, who came back and
24 said -- for example, at the Pilica Dom I think there were 15 suspected
25 explosive residue samples taken. One of them came back from the
1 Dutch forensic institute as positive. So it's just two -- two different
2 aspects of the one analysis of the same sample.
3 JUDGE KWON: Are there any other reports than those I mentioned
4 that Mr. Manning is relying on?
5 MR. MITCHELL: Mr. President, I think everything Mr. Manning
6 relies on is -- I think, Professor Wright's reports are summarised, so
7 all the six experts --
8 JUDGE KWON: I'm mentioning those evidence which is not in
9 evidence before the Chamber.
10 MR. MITCHELL: He has cited to conclusions by
11 Professor Antony Brown who is the soil expert, and I believe there are
12 two of those reports. He has cited to a Dutch forensic institute report
13 on the explosive residue taken from the Pilica Dom and Kravica warehouse.
14 He's cited to a Dutch forensic institute report on the blood samples
15 collected from those sites and the Grbavci school, a study of watches by
16 Mr. Mark Mills, a Dutch forensic institute textile report on the
17 ligatures and blindfolds, a US Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
18 report on the Kravica warehouse -- sorry, report on shell casings.
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes. That's what -- included in what I mentioned,
21 MR. MITCHELL: The two NCIS reports on the Kravica warehouse and
22 the Pilica Dom.
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
24 MR. MITCHELL: And if I could just mention, Mr. President, most
25 of these conclusions have been recognised as adjudicated facts.
1 JUDGE KWON: Could you give me an example -- examples of
3 MR. MITCHELL: I can give you -- adjudicated fact 1703 says:
4 "Investigation into the cartridges discovered at the grave site
5 revealed that the cartridges found in the grave itself matched with those
6 found along the road at the grave side, indicating that the victims in
7 the grave were shot at the grave site."
8 That's an adjudicated fact about Cerska.
9 And if we go to adjudicated fact 1717, the OTP -- this is about
10 Kravica warehouse:
11 "The OTP sent a team of experts to examine the Kravica warehouse
12 on 30 September 1996. Experts determined the presence of bullet strikes
13 explosive residue, bullets and shell cases, as well as human blood,
14 bones, and tissue adhering to the walls and floor of the building."
15 And there's quite a few of -- facts like that. Number 1721,
16 1788, 1800, 1822, 1855, 1861, 1863, 1879, 1889 -- I think -- 1886,
17 1880 -- and 18 -- I think that's it, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Would you like to reply, Mr. Robinson?
19 Yes, Mr. Mitchell, do you have anything --
20 MR. MITCHELL: Nothing else to add, no.
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Robinson.
22 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, thank you, Mr. President. Well, I would like
23 to apply -- first of all, I would like to call your attention to the
24 scheme of Rule 94 bis which envisions that expert findings will be
25 presented to the Trial Chamber first by way of notice by the Prosecution,
1 and then if the Defence challenges those, then they have the right to
2 test them in court, and that was the basis your Ruling under 92 bis that
3 experts reports wouldn't be admissible so the Defence would have a right
4 to challenge them. So what's being done in this instance takes away our
5 right to challenge those reports, since this witness could do nothing
6 more than repeat the findings of the report. He's not an expert in any
7 of those fields to be able to ask about the basis of those findings. So
8 it's our position that this is the same rationale as you rejected the
9 92 bis experts that you should also reject admitting the findings --
10 JUDGE KWON: I'm sorry, 92 bis expert.
11 MR. ROBINSON: Yes. You said that they were -- you would not
12 allow expert reports or expert testimony to be admitted by way of
13 Rule 92 bis.
14 JUDGE KWON: Now I understand.
15 MR. ROBINSON: I was speaking in a little shorthand. In any
16 event, our first point is essentially by bringing them in through a
17 witness other than the expert they're circumventing Rule 94 bis which is
18 lex specialis. Secondly, I call your attention to the Barney Kelly
19 decision in the Milosevic case about which I know you are very familiar
20 with, and then they said that it was not proper for an investigator to
21 come and repeat the information given to investigators in the field by
22 witnesses, and essentially this is also what's going on here. This
23 investigator is repeating the expert's conclusions, and we think that the
24 decision to allow that would run afoul of the decision in the Milosevic
25 case on the testimony of Barney Kelly.
1 Finally with respect to adjudicated facts, we don't think --
2 although, first of all, we wonder why it's necessary for the Prosecution
3 to introduce evidence when they have adjudicated facts on the very same
4 point. Even if they're allowed to do that, we don't see how that would
5 affect the admissibility. The question is whether evidence from an
6 expert is admissible through the testimony of some other witness, and
7 it's either admissible or it's not, and the question of whether those
8 same pieces of information have been judicially noticed we think is not
9 relevant on the issue of admissibility.
10 Thank you.
11 MR. MITCHELL: Mr. President, if I can respond very briefly.
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Before that, could we agree upon the fact that
13 Mr. Manning is not appearing as an expert?
14 MR. MITCHELL: That's correct. Mr. Manning is not an expert.
15 JUDGE KWON: Okay. Yes, Mr. Mitchell.
16 MR. MITCHELL: Just very briefly. I think the Milosevic decision
17 is very clear - this is the decision of 30 September 2002 - that
18 summarising evidence is admissible, and what the decision says in
19 paragraph 21, that in every case the basic issue is whether the material
20 being summarised is itself admissible. And in this case, I would submit,
21 it's clearly admissible. It's clearly identified by Mr. Manning.
22 The second point I would make is Mr. Manning, while he
23 necessarily refers to the conclusions of these experts, what the purpose
24 of his testimony is is to explain or to put them into context how -- how
25 those conclusion were is reached. So taking the shell casing example,
1 where those shell casings came from, how they were sent, what was asked
2 to be done, and then what those findings mean to say that shell casings
3 from particular sites match; Mr. Manning then interprets that and turns
4 it into -- or puts his own analysis on it and that's what he's presenting
5 to the Court.
6 JUDGE KWON: Let me be clear one thing about -- you are not
7 tendering the report itself, for example, US Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco
8 and Firearms report, or NCIS report, separately.
9 MR. MITCHELL: They're not being tendered at all, Mr. President.
10 Mr. Manning's three reports --
11 JUDGE KWON: He's relying on those reports or he's citing the
12 conclusion --
13 MR. MITCHELL: He's citing to the conclusions of those reports,
14 but we're not tendering the underlying expert reports --
15 JUDGE KWON: How can you [overlapping speakers]
16 MR. MITCHELL: [Overlapping speakers] source material.
17 JUDGE KWON: I'm sorry. I'm overlapping. How would you
18 distinguish from the submission of Mr. Robinson that by doing so we are
19 encroaching the spirit of Rule 94 bis?
20 MR. MITCHELL: Mr. President, I think that Rule applies to the
21 expert reports themselves. I think Mr. Manning is entitled to cite -- so
22 long as it's clearly identified, he's entitled to cite to another
23 document so we know where his report is coming from, and I don't think
24 that is circumventing Rule 94 at all, because we're not seeking to tender
25 those underlying expert reports through him.
1 JUDGE BAIRD: Mr. Mitchell, he's entitled to cite and rely on the
3 MR. MITCHELL: Yes, Your Honour. I believe he's entitled to cite
4 those conclusions, clearly identify where they're coming from and rely on
5 them and explain to them from his own investigative experience and
6 analysis what those conclusions mean.
7 JUDGE KWON: Now, turn to you, Mr. Robinson.
8 MR. ROBINSON: Yes. In rebuttal to that, Mr. President --
9 JUDGE KWON: I'm pausing.
10 MR. ROBINSON: Okay. Sorry.
11 JUDGE KWON: I will hear from you, if anything.
12 MR. ROBINSON: I just wanted to say how can you distinguish the
13 findings from his testimony once -- because his testimony assumes that
14 the findings are true. It goes -- for example, shell casings. It
15 assumes that the shell casings match, before he can go on to explain what
16 the significance of that is. So I don't see how the Prosecutor can make
17 that distinction. There -- the results of the expert report are being
18 assumed to be true; otherwise, his testimony is meaningless. So I think
19 that that's a distinction without a difference in terms of the argument.
20 Anyway, I'm ready to answer any questions you might have.
21 JUDGE KWON: For example, 65 ter number 2478 and 3937 are, in my
22 understanding, summaries of forensic evidence by Dr. Wright, Peccerelli,
23 Clark or Baraybar. As regards those part, given the complexity and
24 technicality or the size themselves, would the Chamber not be assisted by
25 hearing from Mr. Manning as to how to understand or how to read those
1 voluminous evidence in a brief manner?
2 MR. ROBINSON: Absolutely, yes.
3 JUDGE KWON: So you do not oppose to that part?
4 MR. ROBINSON: Given that the evidence has already been admitted
5 from the experts themselves, we don't oppose this witness assisting the
6 Chamber with understanding that evidence, since we've had a chance to
7 test it.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE KWON: Given the timing, the Chamber will take a break now,
10 a bit early break. So we'll break for 25 minutes and resume -- we will
11 resume at 3.35.
12 --- Recess taken at 3.07 p.m.
13 --- On resuming at 3.46 p.m.
14 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson, having considered your submission and
15 the fact that you do not object to the admission of two of the tendered
16 reports, namely 65 ter numbers 2478 and 3937, the Chamber has decided to
17 admit them into evidence. As discussed earlier, they simply refer to and
18 summarises the reports already in evidence in this case which the accused
19 has had an opportunity to challenge through the cross-examination of
20 other experts.
21 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. Thank you.
22 JUDGE KWON: Now, with respect to 65 ter 2479, Mr. Mitchell, the
23 Chamber would like to know if there are any parts of that report that
24 refer to reports or documents already in evidence in this case.
25 MR. MITCHELL: Yes, Mr. President. I think a large -- the vast
1 majority of that report cites to the archaeological, anthropological and
2 pathology reports that are already in evidence. There's only selected
3 portions of that report that cite to these other expert reports.
4 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Mitchell. In that case, the Chamber
5 has decided to admit only those portions of the report which refer to
6 reports and documents already in evidence in this case.
7 With respect to the remaining portions, the Chamber would like
8 the Prosecution to redact those from the report. This, of course,
9 assumes that the redactions would not make the whole report
10 incomprehensible. If they do, the Prosecution should bring that to the
11 Chamber's attention.
12 In addition, the Chamber would allow the Prosecution to discuss
13 with the witness his involvement in obtaining the information and the
14 reports cited in 65 ter 2479. The Prosecution can then consider bringing
15 the person or persons who prepared that information and produced the
16 related reports. This will then enable the accused to challenge the
17 findings in accordance with the Rules.
18 That's the Ruling.
19 Yes, Mr. Robinson.
20 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, thank you, Mr. President, for that Ruling. I
21 just want to point out that in 65 ter number 2478, on pages 5 and 6,
22 there are references to the results of the Netherlands Forensic Institute
23 textile report and then also the ballistics report on page 6. So I would
24 ask that you apply the same Ruling for 2479 to those of 2478.
25 JUDGE KWON: Thank you for that information.
1 The same Ruling will apply to that part as well.
2 Yes, Mr. Mitchell.
3 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 Q. Mr. Manning, I want to ask you very briefly about two additional
5 reports in addition to the three that we've been talking about. In 2005,
6 you reviewed the work the Bosnian authorities and the ICMP and you
7 produced two reports summarising their findings; is that right?
8 A. That's correct, Your Honours.
9 Q. I don't want to get into the details of those two reports, but
10 can you just very briefly describe the process that you went through of
11 reviewing the work of the Bosnians and the ICMP?
12 A. Your Honours, briefly, I was tasked with examining the records
13 from the ICMP exhumations and also the DNA analysis conducted by the
14 laboratories with the intention of identifying those records that they
15 had of identified people which related to mass graves we had identified
16 as being connected to Srebrenica. On the basis of that, I collated the
17 figures and the numbers that they had presented for DNA identifications
18 and linked those to the primary and secondary mass graves that the ICTY
19 were aware were from Srebrenica.
20 Q. And is it correct that this process that you started in 2005 of
21 analysing and reporting on this work has now been taken over by another
22 investigator from the Office of the Prosecutor?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. And can you tell us the name of that other investigator?
25 A. I'm sorry, I don't recall his last name, Dusan.
1 Q. Dusan Janc?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Mr. Manning, I want to move to a different area now and discuss
4 the blindfolds and ligatures.
5 MR. MITCHELL: If we can have 65 ter 16274 in e-court.
6 Q. First --
7 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Before we move on, could we give the
8 number to the reports we -- --
9 MR. MITCHELL: The three reports?
10 JUDGE KWON: We admitted.
11 MR. MITCHELL: Certainly.
12 JUDGE KWON: With that caveat, there's no objection to the
13 admission of those three.
14 MR. ROBINSON: That's correct.
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Shall we give the number.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. 65 ter 02478 will be
17 Exhibit P4502. 65 ter 03937 will be Exhibit P4503. And 65 ter 02479
18 will be P4504.
19 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. And in your notification that you were
20 minded to -- you were alluding that you would tender the other expert
21 reports but it's clear that you're not tendering them now.
22 MR. MITCHELL: Mr. President, I simply listed them in case I used
23 them, but the intention was not to tender them.
24 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Now it's clear. Let's move on. Yes,
25 Mr. Mitchell.
1 MR. MITCHELL:
2 Q. Mr. Manning, can you tell us who made this chart and can you
3 explain to us what it means.
4 A. Your Honours, I produced this chart, this table. The first part
5 of the table is relating to ligatures and the then-exhumed mass graves,
6 and the bottom table, which you can't see completely, is the same sort of
7 table related to blindfolds.
8 Because the blindfolds and ligatures were located not only during
9 the exhumation but at the autopsy and examination of the body, the
10 reports from, for instance, Professor Wright would list a number of
11 blindfolds for a grave but he would acknowledge in his report that that
12 was not a complete listing, and the same for the mortuary, because by the
13 time the bodies had arrived, on occasions the blindfolds or ligatures had
14 either fallen off the body or the body had become disassociated.
15 I physically examined every item that was listed as a blindfold
16 or a ligature or could have been a blindfold or a ligature. I physically
17 examined the item. I then sought the documentation for that item such as
18 a photograph in situ on a body, the associated photographic logs, the
19 evidence logs, the autopsy reports, observations by pathologists, crime
20 scene officers and other experts. And I then made account of the
21 blindfolds, where they were located, from what graves, and produced this
22 table to -- to indicate the conservative numbering of how many blindfolds
23 and how many ligatures were located within the graves, where they were
24 located within the grave and which graves they were located in.
25 Q. Now, the details of each specific blindfold and ligature is in
1 your three reports; is that right? The 2000, 2001, and 2003 reports.
2 A. Yes, Your Honours. Associated with each of those reports was
3 annexes which had the listing of the blindfolds and the ligatures,
4 including the photographic references, including photographs in situ on
5 the body in the mortuary, and also linked to those three reports were the
6 expert reports which included the autopsy and exhumation accounts related
7 to those blindfolds and ligatures.
8 JUDGE KWON: I'm sorry to interrupt you, Mr. Mitchell, again.
9 There's an administrative matter to consult the parties.
10 The Chamber was just approached by other -- other Chamber asking
11 whether we can swap the sitting into, i.e., whether we can sit in the
12 afternoon tomorrow. So is there a problem from the Prosecution?
13 MR. MITCHELL: Mr. President, Mr. Manning has to be on a flight
14 at, I believe, 2.00 p.m. tomorrow, and that's nonnegotiable, so in the
15 event --
16 JUDGE KWON: Unless we are able to finish him today.
17 MR. MITCHELL: Yeah. Hopefully we're able to finish today, but
18 if not, he could only go for, I imagine, a couple of hours at the most in
19 the morning.
20 JUDGE KWON: We have -- given the Ruling we just made, would it
21 be, by any chance, possible on the part of the Defence to conclude the
22 cross-examination by today? But before that, how long would it take for
23 your examination-in-chief?
24 MR. MITCHELL: Mr. President, I think I probably have half an
25 hour left, maybe 45 minutes at the most.
1 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson or Mr. Karadzic?
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am sorry, but indeed there are a
3 great many details that reveal the essence of the matter, and these
4 details have to be presented, and they have to be put to the witness.
5 JUDGE KWON: That doesn't tell us how many hours you need for
6 your cross.
7 Just a second.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE KWON: Whatever the time may be allotted to the Defence,
10 we'll stick to the original plan in terms of sitting. We are sitting
11 tomorrow in the morning.
12 Yes. Let's continue, Mr. Mitchell.
13 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you, Mr. President.
14 Q. So, Mr. Manning, just to be clear, the conclusion of the numbers
15 in this table, the total of 423 ligatures and 448 blindfolds, they're
16 your numbers?
17 A. Yes, very much. If you took the expert reports - particularly
18 Richard Wright, Professor Haglund, Professor Clark and others - if you
19 look at the number of blindfolds and ligatures in those reports, they
20 were not the same and they were not these numbers. These are the result
21 of my examination of -- of all aspects of the exhumation autopsy process
22 over the period 1996 to 2001, 2003.
23 Q. Now, just sticking with your 2000 report for a minute, there are
24 two volumes of photographs that go with that report, is that correct,
25 which show there's a photograph of each blindfold and each ligature?
1 A. That's correct, yes.
2 MR. MITCHELL: Mr. President, I'd like to tender those two
3 volumes. That's 65 ter 23631 and 23632. We move to add them to our
4 65 ter list but they're a composite of four numbers that were already
5 listed on our 65 ter list.
6 JUDGE KWON: Any objections?
7 MR. ROBINSON: No, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes, they will be admitted into evidence.
9 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibits P4505 and 4506 respectively,
10 Your Honours.
11 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
12 MR. MITCHELL: Mr. President, I'd also like to tender the chart
13 that's on the screen in front of us.
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P4507, Your Honours.
16 MR. MITCHELL: If I can have 65 ter 23634 in e-court. And,
17 Mr. President, this is a composite image that we also applied for leave
18 to add to our 65 ter list, and it was incorrectly described in that
19 request. This contains all the photographs from the 2000 report that are
20 in those two volumes. It also contains the photographs from
21 Mr. Manning's two subsequent reports. So this is -- this is a photograph
22 of everything in those three reports. So we'd ask for leave to add that.
23 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson?
24 MR. ROBINSON: No objection.
25 JUDGE KWON: It's granted.
1 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you.
2 JUDGE KWON: And you're going to ask some questions --
3 MR. MITCHELL: I'll ask a couple of questions.
4 Q. Mr. Manning, if you can tell us --
5 JUDGE KWON:
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just ask for something?
7 Could they be numbered in the same way like in these books? They don't
8 have the same numbers, so it's very hard to identify them. So can they
9 have visible numbers, please?
10 JUDGE KWON: At the moment I don't follow, but could you assist
11 us, Mr. Mitchell?
12 MR. MITCHELL: I'm not entirely sure what Mr. Karadzic is asking,
13 if he's asking for the artefact number of each of the photographs or
14 if -- if he wants them numbered 1 through 448. I'm not sure.
15 JUDGE KWON: Why don't you deal with this chart with Mr. Manning
16 first and then see what we can do about it.
17 MR. MITCHELL:
18 Q. First, Mr. Manning, can you tell us who compiled this composite
20 A. I -- I compiled this image.
21 Q. And even though we've just talked about it, can you tell us
22 what's on it? Where are these artefacts from?
23 A. Your Honours, the document itself is -- is a -- a poster-sized
24 image. There's also one for ligatures. It shows a photographic image of
25 each blindfold from each of the primary and the related secondary mass
1 graves. So if you see the first label, it says, "Branjevo Farm, Pilica."
2 There are two blindfolds, two separate blindfolds which were located at
3 the Branjevo military farm. And then each of the images from Cancari
4 Road 12 represent individual blindfolds, et cetera, et cetera, through
5 all the primary and secondary mass graves.
6 Some images show a blindfold within the grave loose. Others show
7 a blindfold on the head after body, either at the mortuary or in the
8 grave, and some show that a blindfold or ligature at the mortuary being
9 photographed after it was cleaned, but each image shows a separate
10 blindfold or ligature.
11 JUDGE KWON: So this is a composite of images that we have
12 already in evidence.
13 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE KWON: What would be the point of this -- having this
16 MR. MITCHELL: Mr. President, if I can answer that. This is
17 actually -- it's additional. It contains some additional images which
18 are not in the books. So, for example, Lazete 1 and Lazete 2C are
19 contained in this composite, but they're not contained in the two
21 JUDGE KWON: The two volumes of -- his report.
22 MR. MITCHELL: Correct. The two volumes just go with the 2000
23 report. This composite image is all three reports. So there's certainly
24 some overlap. Everything that's in those two volumes will be on this
25 image, but because --
1 JUDGE KWON: My question is any images that we have this in
2 composite image should appear in one of the forensic reports somewhere in
3 our evidence.
4 MR. MITCHELL: Many of them will. I couldn't guarantee that all
5 of them would have made their way into a report of the pathologist or the
6 archaeologist, but they certainly would have originated at that time.
7 JUDGE KWON: And you haven't answered my question as to the point
8 of having this composite image --
9 MR. MITCHELL: The point --
10 JUDGE KWON: -- in addition to images that we already have.
11 MR. MITCHELL: The point is simply, Mr. President, these
12 artefacts are the subject of specific challenge in this case, and we want
13 you -- or we'd like to offer you images of every single one of them so
14 you can analyse exactly what they are and reach that determination
15 yourself and this is a way of putting every single blindfold and every
16 single ligature in one place to look at.
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Let's continue. Yes, Mr. Mitchell.
18 MR. MITCHELL: Can we look at 65 ter 23635.
19 Q. You mentioned a similar composite image of ligatures. Is this
20 what you were referring to?
21 A. Yes, this is the same type of image. It represents -- each photo
22 is a single ligature from the mass graves. There's no duplication, if
23 you will.
24 MR. MITCHELL: I'd like to tender those -- those two images,
25 Mr. President.
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Robinson.
2 MR. ROBINSON: We don't object, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE KWON: Very well. They will be admitted.
4 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibits P4508 and P4509 respectively,
5 Your Honours.
6 MR. MITCHELL:
7 Q. And your reports list a number of other artefacts which were
8 recovered from the graves, including identification documents and items
9 of -- are believed to be of religious significance. Can you tell us why
10 you considered it important to detail those particular groups of
12 A. The identification material including the documents, photographs,
13 and artefacts were considered very important to the Tribunal in (a)
14 connecting the mass graves to Srebrenica to July of 1995 and the events
15 following the fall of Srebrenica. They were also very important to
16 hopefully provide identification of the victims, for the forensic process
17 but also for the families of the victims. And I would routinely examine
18 items in the field and at the mortuary, and I would regularly attend the
19 mortuary, examine all those items, physically examine them and examine
20 the documentation with them. I would then decide which items were
21 conveyed to the ICTY either for further examination such as the shell
22 cases, blindfold and ligatures and the watches, or I would organise the
23 return of those items that were appropriate to the Bosnian authorities to
24 PHR, Physicians for Human Rights, who were seeking to identify the
25 bodies. And in the case of the religious items, I examined all the
1 artefacts that were obtained during the several-year process and sought
2 to identify any religious or other groupings for those individuals
3 whose -- who had owned those artefacts. I found a significant number of
4 religious artefacts. The only religion that I could equate to those
5 artefacts was Islam in the majority of cases. There was no items that
6 showed a connection to any other religious group.
7 Q. Now, you describe in various parts of your reports some
8 particular artefacts that were recovered from Glogova, Zeleni Jadar 5 and
9 6, and Ravnice. Can you first tell us a bit about the Ravnice grave and
10 what -- what the artefacts were that were found at that location?
11 A. Your Honours, I was present in the field when the Ravnice grave
12 was first identified. I was also present when it was first exhumed as
13 Ravnice 1, and then I was present the following year when Ravnice 2,
14 which is effectively the same grave, was exhumed. I personally saw the
15 artefacts that were located within the grave amongst the bodies. Those
16 artefacts included items that were indistinguishable from items at the
17 Kravica warehouse which is approximately 8 kilometres away from the
18 Ravnice primary grave. Those items included pieces of the masonry and
19 physical structure of the warehouse, painted pieces of concrete, pieces
20 of metal, pieces of machinery, and in one instance a piece of foam
21 painted lettering which was a positive physical match for a piece of the
22 same signage which was on the Kravica warehouse. So effectively, a piece
23 of a sign had been knocked off the Kravica warehouse and then had been
24 transported to the Ravnice primary mass graves and was within the bodies,
25 a group of bodies.
1 Q. What about the artefacts at Glogova and Zeleni Jadar 5 and 6?
2 A. Again, I was present not only at the Kravica warehouse on
3 numerous occasions, but I was present when Glogova 2 primary mass graves
4 was opened and Glogova 1. I was present when Zeleni Jadar 5 was exhumed
5 and opened, and I was present and located with the team Zeleni Jadar 6.
6 In each of those primary and secondary graves, there were
7 significant numbers of items that were indistinguishable from items at
8 the Kravica warehouse. In effect, there were pieces of the warehouse in
9 the primary mass graves of Glogova 1 and 2, and there were pieces of the
10 warehouse in the secondary mass graves of Zeleni Jadar 5 and 6.
11 Q. Can you tell us then, based on the presence of these particular
12 artefacts, what's the connection or the sequence between the warehouse,
13 Glogova, and the two graves at Zeleni Jadar, Zeleni Jadar 5 and 6?
14 A. The Kravica warehouse is an execution point where a significant
15 number of prisoners were killed. Those -- the bodies of the victims were
16 then transported from the warehouse by heavy machinery. In doing so,
17 that heavy machinery knocked down part of the door and frame and wall of
18 the warehouse. That material was transported with the bodies; in one
19 group to the Ravnice prime mass graves and another group to the Glogova
20 primary mass graves, which is about 8 kilometres from the Kravica
22 Several months later, the primary mass graves of Glogova 1 and 2
23 were opened, and some of the contents, that is the bodies, removed by
24 heavy machinery, and those bodies were then transported to the newly
25 created secondary mass graves along Zeleni Jadar Road, and they were
1 located within Zeleni Jadar 5 and 6, and from my work with the
2 Bosnian commission, I saw similar artefacts in the other Zeleni Jadar
3 graves, 1 to 4, and also at the Ravnice site. They were all effectively
4 connected. One was an execution point. Three were mass primary graves,
5 and the remainder were mass secondary graves.
6 MR. MITCHELL: Can I have 65 ter number 23633 in e-court.
7 Mr. President, this is another exhibit which we asked to add to
8 our 65 ter list. It's a composite book of images and maps, every one of
9 which is individually already on the 65 ter list.
10 JUDGE KWON: Ah, yes.
11 Mr. Robinson.
12 MR. ROBINSON: No objection.
13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Yes, that's granted.
14 MR. MITCHELL:
15 Q. Mr. Manning, have you had an opportunity to review all of the
16 aerials that are in this book?
17 A. I have.
18 Q. Did you -- or can you tell us, did you have an opportunity to
19 review them during your investigation?
20 A. Your Honours, we made great use of the aerial images provided by
21 the US government. We used them to identify the primary and secondary
22 mass graves. I used them on many, many occasions to assist in locating
23 the graves.
24 Q. If we can go to image number 20 in the hard copy, 32 in e-court.
25 Can you tell us what we're looking at in this image?
1 A. Your Honours, this is a composite of two images which have been
2 overlapped. I was responsible for producing the overlapped images and
3 the yellow marking on those images.
4 They show that Zeleni Jadar secondary mass graves from
5 Zeleni Jadar 1 through to 6; and, in fact, Zeleni Jadar 1 should be
6 Zeleni Jadar 1A, and there is Zeleni Jadar 1B. I was present when we
7 located that grave and probed its contents. So effectively, there are
8 seven secondary mass graves in the Zeleni Jadar Road area.
9 Q. Did you personally visit each of these sites?
10 A. I've been to every site. As I say, I was present when 1B was
11 located. I've been present when Zeleni 2 was examined. I've been
12 present when Zeleni Jadar 5 was opened. I've been present at 3 and 4 and
13 examined the area, and I was present at and part of the exhumation of
14 Zeleni Jadar 6.
15 Q. Let's go to the next page, image number 2133 in e-court.
16 You mentioned there should be a Zeleni Jadar 1A and B. If I can
17 get the usher to assist you, if you could describe that in more detail
18 and mark the image if -- if need be.
19 A. Your Honours, this is a single image which is made up of two
20 images side by side. That joint image was provided to the ICTY. I
21 marked the right-hand pane Zeleni Jadar 1. The left-hand pane shows the
22 area on the 7th of September, and you can see that by the 2nd of October
23 two areas had been excavated, one marked Zeleni Jadar 1, and if you look
24 at this area of the map, that is the grave site that we identified and
25 probed and labelled Zeleni Jadar 1B. It hadn't previously been examined
1 because it is believed to be within a heavily mined area. So we mined a
2 path to the area and examined the mass graves. But you can see that on
3 the 7th of September, 1995, there were no mass graves in the area, and by
4 the 2nd of October, 1995, what we now know to be two mass graves had been
6 Q. Are the two graves we see in the right-hand shot, were they
7 opened or closed at the time this was taken?
8 A. Your Honours, I'm not an expert in photo examinations, but from
9 using these images, I believe that Zeleni Jadar 1 is open in -- in that
10 view, and also Zeleni Jadar 1B. And having examined particularly 1B, it
11 had a very small area. It was a trench cut into a flat area, and I
12 believe that this shows the mass graves as they'd been created and
14 Q. Can you mark on the top one 1A, 1B on the bottom where you've
15 circled and then initial and date it with today's date, the 6th of March.
16 A. [Marks]
17 MR. MITCHELL: I'd like to tender that, please.
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes. This image will be admitted as a separate
20 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P4510, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE KWON: While not important, do you have the date of the
22 previous image, Mr. Mitchell, the image 20?
23 MR. MITCHELL: We can go back a page in the book.
24 Q. The composite image that you compiled, Mr. Manning, do you know
25 what date is depicted in those two composite images?
1 A. Your Honours, I know from working on this document that those
2 images were produced without the date on them, but they are effectively
3 the same images that you see in the previous -- in the subsequent
4 photographs. When we requested that image, the -- the dates were not
5 included, but they were taken from the other images that you see
6 following that. So ...
7 JUDGE KWON: But you confirm this statement by Mr. Mitchell that
8 this is a composite image that you compiled based upon the images
9 provided to you?
10 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. Yes.
11 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
12 Please continue.
13 MR. MITCHELL: If we can go to page 22 in the hard copy, 34 in
15 Q. In the previous image we were looking at Zeleni Jadar 1A and 1B
16 on the 7th of September, the 2nd of October. And if you can now describe
17 what we can see in this particular image.
18 A. Your Honours, again a split view, and this shows a date range in
19 October of 1995. If you look at the 18th of October on the left-hand
20 pane, you can see, certainly in the hard copy, it looks that the graves
21 are still at least not covered up, still open, and if you look at the
22 right-hand pane on the 20th of October, 1995, you can see that the graves
23 have been covered in. And from examination of these documents
24 previously, I believe that you can see vehicle marks on the soil where
25 heavy machinery has sealed up the graves and flattened the ground in both
1 Zeleni Jadar 1A and 1B.
2 Q. Can you tell us about Zeleni Jadar 2? Was there anything
3 significant about that particular grave?
4 A. Zeleni Jadar 2 was created very, very close to a small stream.
5 In fact, it was on the edge of the stream.
6 Q. Perhaps -- my apologies. Perhaps we could go over to the next
7 page and at page 23 in the hard copy and 35 in e-court.
8 I apologise for interrupting you. If you could then continue
9 your explanation.
10 A. When you -- when you see that image, you can see that the white
11 stripe across the middle of both photographs is, in fact, a dirt roadway.
12 The grave can be clearly seen on the right-hand pane, and if you like,
13 where the tip of the arrow is is the area where the river or small creek
14 is. That mass graves was in an area that I had -- I have seen flooded,
15 and when it was examined by Professor Wright, he found that it contained
16 some human remains, scattered human remains.
17 I went to the site with Dr. Wright, and he advised me that it was
18 his belief that that mass graves had been robbed, that is, that the
19 bodies had been removed, and that it was an indication that there was
20 somewhere a tertiary grave which contained those bodies.
21 MR. MITCHELL: Could we go to image 31 in the hard copy, 44 in
23 Q. And if you can explain what we're looking at in this particular
25 A. Again, this is an image which I created. It shows three separate
1 photographs overlaid. It shows the Hodzici Road or the area we called
2 Hodzici Road, and mass graves 1 through to 7, secondary mass graves.
3 Q. Did you visit all of these seven sites?
4 A. I did. I was present at one stage when the Bosnian commission
5 were exhuming, I think Hodzici 7. I went to each of the sites with
6 Dr. Wright and with other members of the team, and particularly we
7 examined Hodzici 1, which Professor Wright believed to have been dug as a
8 primary -- as a secondary mass graves and not utilised completely as a
10 Q. Professor Wright fully exhumed Hodzici Road 3, 4, and 5; is that
12 A. That's correct, yes.
13 Q. And are you aware of what the results of any subsequent
14 examination of Hodzici Road 1 are?
15 A. It's my understanding that the Bosnian commission and ICMP
16 examined Hodzici Road 1 and, in fact, found a number of bodies within
17 that grave. It had not been completed filled, but they did find a number
18 of bodies connected to Srebrenica in that mass graves.
19 MR. MITCHELL: Can we go to image 42 in the hard copy and 56 in
21 Q. And just to be clear for the record, we're looking at an image
22 with -- a summary image of mass graves for each of the individual graves
23 in this book. There's a series of photos related to each grave; is that
25 A. Yes. In each grave area I've tried to produce a similar document
1 to show not only the aerial image but highlight the area of the graves.
2 In this instance these are the Liplje Road secondary mass graves.
3 Liplje 1 was connected to the dam at Petkovci. And, to my knowledge,
4 another three mass graves connected to Srebrenica have been located in
5 this road, and in fact by the Bosnian Commission for Missing Persons, and
6 in fact I was present when we examined an area with the commission which
7 was later found to be a mass graves.
8 Q. Is it Liplje 1 that's connected to the dam or on another site?
9 A. Sorry, Liplje 2.
10 Q. Now, if we can go to image 48 in the hard copy and 63 in e-court.
11 And if you can explain again what we're looking at here.
12 A. In the same manner, I've tried to highlight to the Court the
13 aerial images which show the secondary mass graves. I'm responsible for
14 those yellow images being placed on the document. The red image was not
15 placed there by myself. And I'm aware that a further mass grave was
16 identified on Cancari Road, and it's numbers Cancari Road 13, and, in
17 fact, it's closer to Cancari Road 1. I'm also aware that the Bosnian
18 commission, when they exhumed these mass graves, named them in a
19 different manner to us. So some of the mass graves on Cancari Road are
20 called Kamenica, et cetera, by the Bosnian commission.
21 Q. Okay. I want to look at one particular example which the
22 Trial Chamber is familiar with, and that's Cancari Road 12, but if I can
23 start off -- if we can go to image 18 in the hard copy and 29 in e-court.
24 And just to lay a little bit of background, in your 2000 report,
25 at page 16, you say that the aerial imagery of Branjevo Farm was first
1 released on the 21st of March, 1996; is that right?
2 A. Yes, that's correct.
3 Q. And the grave was then exhumed later that same year by
4 Dr. Haglund.
5 A. That's correct, Dr. Haglund and his team from PHR exhumed a
6 number of bodies from that primary mass graves.
7 Q. If you can just briefly describe what we're looking at here on
8 image number 18.
9 A. Your Honours, I've -- I've been to the military farm on a number
10 of occasions. If you look at the vertical line which runs from the top
11 third of the document to a group of buildings and roadways, that's --
12 it's now -- it's now destroyed, but it was then a farm. It was, to my
13 knowledge, a pig farm. It consisted of a number of farm buildings. And
14 if you moved to the left of the image, there's trackways and paths of
15 vehicles, and the area marked "Burial area" is in fact the
16 Branjevo military farm primary mass grave exhumed by Professor Haglund,
17 Dr. Haglund.
18 Q. And that marking "Burial area," that was made by the provider; is
19 that right?
20 A. That's correct. It was not made by ICTY.
21 Q. Now, the image has a date of 21st of September, 1995. If we can
22 go to the next page, page 19 in the hard copy, 30 in e-court.
23 We're now looking at an image with the date of 27 September 1995,
24 and if you can describe what we're looking at now.
25 A. Your Honours, it's the same area and you can see more clearly the
1 farm buildings. In the area, if you follow the tracks around, you'll
2 find the tracks are more defined in this image, and from my examination
3 of these images, I believe that the -- the title there indicates that --
4 that there was a disturbance of that mass graves, that the mass graves
5 has been opened and is in the process of being robbed, if you like.
6 Q. And again, those white markings are the conclusion of the
8 A. Yes, they are, and I -- I don't -- I don't see a backhoe or front
9 loader on that image. I see them marked that way. What we used -- what
10 I used this image for was locating the area of the mass graves and the
11 execution point.
12 Q. If we go to image 71 now, 86 in e-court. Is there anything
13 significant about what we're looking at here? Or can you tell us what
14 area this is in?
15 A. This is, if you like, the before photograph of Cancari Road 12
16 secondary mass graves. You can see a line that crosses from the top left
17 to the middle right. Next to that is where the mass graves will be
18 created. But you can see on the 7th of September, 1995, that that grave
19 has not yet been created.
20 Q. Can we go to the next page. And this is an image dated
21 27 September 1995, the same date as the image of Branjevo military farm.
22 And if you can describe what we're looking at here, and perhaps the usher
23 can assist you and you can mark on this image the significant features.
24 A. One significant point is that in these images you would
25 invariably see the tracks of vehicles, and if you follow that line and
1 that line, you can see what are the tracks of vehicles. And when we
2 examined the mass graves, we would find those tracks embedded in the
3 soil. I'm not saying those specific tracks, but we would find tracks
4 which matched imagery.
5 And if you look at this area, you see what looks to be an open
6 pit, which is exactly where Cancari Road 12 secondary grave is located,
7 and it looks to be open and not yet covered up or not yet filled with
9 Q. If you can put a CR12 within that rectangle. There's fine.
10 A. Sorry.
11 Q. And then initial and date it.
12 A. [Marks]
13 MR. MITCHELL: If I can tender that, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes. That will be separately admitted.
15 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P4511, Your Honours.
16 MR. MITCHELL:
17 Q. And if we can go to the next page, 73 in the hard copy and 88 in
18 e-court. We're now looking at an image dated the 2nd of October, 1995.
19 If you can describe what we're looking at.
20 A. Your Honours, I think that you can clearly see that the mass
21 grave has now been filled in, and you can see the vehicle tracks. You
22 can recognise the vehicle tracks from the previous image around the mass
23 graves, and it shows vehicle tracks from a heavy machine which has
24 levelled the mass graves, and you can see those tracks radiating out from
25 the mass graves area. So this is effectively an image after the grave
1 has been filled with bodies and covered up, and then we would use this
2 image to identify that site and then we would uncover that mass graves
3 and exhume the bodies.
4 Q. And this particular grave, Cancari Road 12, was exhumed by
5 Professor Richard Wright in 1998; is that right?
6 A. In 1998, yes.
7 Q. And can you just remind us what was found in Cancari Road 12?
8 Like, were there human remains located there?
9 A. Yes. Yes, there were. I was present at the mortuary when those
10 bodies were examined, and I examined artefacts from those bodies. There
11 were a number of complete and partial human remains located within that
12 secondary mass graves. There were items of identification and items
13 which provided a strong link to Srebrenica and July of 1995, and
14 documents which identified persons missing from Srebrenica.
15 MR. MITCHELL: Mr. President, I'd like to tender that book in its
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes. That will be admitted.
18 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P4512, Your Honours.
19 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you, Mr. Manning. I don't have any further
21 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
22 Given that we took the first break earlier, the Chamber is minded
23 to take the second break at 10 past 5.00 for 25 minutes. So could you
24 start, Mr. Karadzic, now.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Good afternoon,
1 Your Excellencies. Good afternoon to everyone.
2 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
3 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, too, Mr. Manning.
4 A. Good afternoon, Mr. Karadzic.
5 Q. Since there is page 19 that's still fresh in our minds, I'd like
6 us to go back to it so you can mark something on it. I believe it's
7 23633, although I don't know the page number in e-court. We saw it a
8 moment ago. It has just been admitted. It received a new P number,
9 whereas the old 65 ter number is 23633, page 19 in the photo album.
10 MR. MITCHELL: I think it's page 30 in e-court.
11 JUDGE KWON: What was the number of that marked version? It's
12 probably P4510. This one.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have it enlarged, please.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Mr. Manning, you say that you know where the people were buried
16 and where the execution took place. Can you mark the spot of execution.
17 A. I've marked the area in red.
18 Q. And the burial?
19 A. That's the square at the left.
20 Q. Thank you. You mentioned and are familiar with the testimony of
21 Drazen Erdemovic. Do you know that he corrected his testimony recently
22 in this courtroom and he said that he arrived at Branjevo at 11.00 and
23 that at that point in time there were neither prisoners more graves
24 there? Were you shown his testimony by the Prosecution?
25 JUDGE KWON: I'm not sure he corrected the evidence as to be
1 specific as the time when he arrived. But what is your question?
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, he and another
3 witness marked another spot at place of execution.
4 JUDGE KWON: I was referring to the time you referred to, but
5 please be specific in putting questions.
6 Yes, Mr. Robinson.
7 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, at page 25374 of the transcript, he
8 did say that he arrived at approximately 11.00, although he was not
9 certain of the time.
10 JUDGE KWON: It's a bit different connotation. He said -- what
11 Mr. Karadzic said, he corrected his testimony recently and he arrived at
12 Branjevo at 11.00. But -- but I'm not sure if you need to put in all
13 those things. What is your question, Mr. Karadzic? Would you like to
14 keep this image for now? Shall we ask the witness to initial and date
15 this document?
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not just yet, please.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. You were, however, informed, and you mentioned that in the
19 forensic summary of 2000, on page 9, that Erdemovic had said that the
20 executions took place approximately between 10.00 and 3.00 and that some
21 1.200 people were killed. Now we see that he arrived at 11.00.
22 How many sets of mortal remains were found in this location?
23 A. Your Honours, I would have to check the reports specifically,
24 because (a) I can't remember and I want it to be correct, but also the
25 number of victims is much more accurately described by DNA results
1 because there were body parts in that grave and I would be able to check
2 my report from 2000, 2001, but that figure has since changed because of
3 the DNA analysis.
4 Q. Thank you. Do you agree or did you learn that before the alleged
5 executions no grave was dug out?
6 A. I -- I think I understand the question. Prior to July of 1995,
7 the aerial imagery shows that there was no grave in that area, and
8 following the exhumation of that grave, we located -- or, the ICTY
9 located a mass grave in that area.
10 Q. Thank you. Mr. Manning, do you have any experience from some
11 other civil wars, and, if so, which ones?
12 A. No. I was not involved in investigations of war crimes until I
13 came to the Tribunal and began working on the Srebrenica case.
14 Q. Thank you. I will put to you what Erdemovic testified to as one
15 of the alleged perpetrators. He said that between 11.00 and 2.00 or
16 3.00, taking out ten people from the buses at a time and taking them some
17 200 metres away, executing them and returning for the next group of ten,
18 they killed 1.200 people within that limited period. Can you imagine
19 that scene, and can you imagine that heap of victims?
20 JUDGE KWON: I'm not sure you have a -- yes, Mr. Mitchell.
21 MR. MITCHELL: Mr. President, I agree that Mr. Erdemovic said
22 11.00, but I'd like a citation for the 2.00 or 3.00, because my
23 recollection was he said 3.00 or 4.00. So if Mr. Karadzic is going to
24 put this scenario, then it needs to be factually accurate.
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes, absolutely, yes. Mr. Karadzic.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In certain statements he mentioned
2 between 2.00 and 3.00, whereas in others between 3.00 and 4.00, but it
3 may be as Mr. Mitchell wants it.
4 JUDGE KWON: You need to be precise, but I don't see the point of
5 putting all those things, but please proceed. Be precise if you'd like
6 to put -- give reference to Mr. Erdemovic's or others' evidence to the
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is my wish for the witness to
9 say whether he took Mr. Erdemovic's words for granted and whether he can
10 accept that during that period 1.200 people were killed, ten at a time,
11 and whether there were 1.200 people who were found in this particular
12 mass grave or related to that mass grave.
13 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, whilst I've heard Mr. Erdemovic's
14 testimony and read it on a number of occasions, my job as an investigator
15 is to corroborate or disprove such statements. That was the process that
16 we undertook for the exhumation/autopsy process.
17 The mass grave at Branjevo military farm had been robbed of a
18 significant number of bodies, yet there was still a significant number of
19 bodies located there. Again, I don't want to give the figure because I
20 don't want to get it wrong, but it was in excess of a hundred bodies, and
21 I can well imagine 1.200 men and boys executed at Branjevo military farm
22 and I can base that on the examination of the grave site and the
23 examination of the numbers of bodies and body parts in the secondary mass
24 graves. Whether it was 1.000 or 1.200, I can accept easily that it was a
25 significant execution point, that the mass grave was full of bodies and
1 that those bodies were then robbed and taken to a significant number of
2 primary -- of secondary mass graves along Cancari Road 12, 11, 10,
3 et cetera.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Thank you, sir. Thank you, Mr. Manning. However, in the Krstic
6 case, on page 3618 of the 26th of May, 2000, you said that the OTP
7 dispatched investigators to the location pointed out by Erdemovic and
9 [In English] "... approximately 500 hundred Muslims had been
10 executed at that location on 16th of July, 1995."
11 JUDGE KWON: Could you repeat the English part. It was -- when
12 you change into English, please put a pause, significant pause, so that
13 we wouldn't miss any part.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. So I'll read out quoting directly from the English version. Page
16 3618, the 26th of May, 2000, the Krstic case:
17 [In English] "The Office of the Prosecutor sent the investigators
18 to that location after Drazen Erdemovic informed Prosecution that
19 approximately 500 Muslims had been executed at that location on the
20 16th of July, 1995."
21 JUDGE KWON: Again, I think I missed some early part of your
22 English. "Office of the Prosecutor sent ..."
23 THE ACCUSED: "... investigators to that location after
24 Drazen Erdemovic informed the Prosecutor that approximately 500 Muslims
25 had been executed at that location on the 16th of July 1995."
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes. What is your question, Mr. Karadzic?
2 MR. MITCHELL: Mr. President, if I can apologise for
3 interrupting. The way that question is phrased is extremely misleading.
4 The previous -- the question that Mr. Manning was asked said: This is a
5 photograph of the Pilica Dom. At the rear of this building was the
6 execution point examined?
7 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
8 MR. MITCHELL: We're talking about a completely different site.
9 JUDGE KWON: Then let us upload that page if you'd like to pose
10 that question.
11 Before we upload that question, I asked you, Mr. Karadzic,
12 whether you would like to keep this image. Would you like to keep this
13 image for now?
14 Yes. Why don't you initial and date this document. We can
15 re-upload it, if necessary.
16 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
17 JUDGE KWON: So we admit it as a separate Defence exhibit.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D2188, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes. What is your -- what is the 65 ter number for
20 Krstic transcript?
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D5177. Page 77.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. However, Mr. Manning, in the forensic summary of 2007, you state
24 that the ICMP identified 104 Srebrenica victims in this grave; correct?
25 Page 5 of the forensic summary.
1 A. Your Honours, without checking that report, I can only say I can
2 accept that.
3 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. You said excess of hundred bodies.
4 THE WITNESS: Yes. And, Your Honours, I make the point that that
5 is the number of bodies identified from the mass grave, not the numbers
6 of bodies within the mass grave. That would be the end result of their
7 examinations. Remembering that in that mass grave there were bodies
8 parts which were very broken up and that might indicate a body part of
9 only a foot or a leg or a hand in that grave, but that would still
10 represent an individual in that grave.
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We have the page in front of us, Mr. Karadzic.
12 Is this the page you referred to?
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This was the testimony, and I
14 believe I've already moved on to the forensic summary of 2007, where it
15 is stated that the ICMP identified 104 people.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Why, Mr. Manning, in your view, out of the alleged 1.200 they
18 were unable to identify more than 104?
19 A. Your Honours, Mr. Karadzic asked if I could well imagine that
20 many number. I can, but the primary mass grave at Branjevo military farm
21 was robbed. The bodies were removed, and the process of identifying the
22 human remains is, I assume, still continuing. Therefore, that there were
23 at least 100 victims identified from that primary mass grave indicates to
24 me that the significant number of bodies removed from that mass grave
25 have either been identified in Cancari Road or some other mass graves.
1 Q. And did you establish the number involved? Did anyone establish
2 the number of victims at the Branjevo Farm, and did you accept that?
3 A. That figure would be most accurate from Mr. Janc's report in that
4 the definitive number of victims from that grave and that execution would
5 be the number identified from the Branjevo military farm primary mass
6 grave and the number of victims identified in the related secondary mass
7 graves along Cancari Road. So if you took their most recent figures,
8 added up four or five or however many secondary graves with the primary
9 grave, you would have an accurate count of the number of identified
10 bodies so far from that execution.
11 Q. Thank you. Tell us, please, do you know that in that area the
12 war went on for some 45 months? Did you know that a differentiation
13 should be made between those who lost their lives during those 45 months
14 from those who were killed in the fighting in July, and finally, those
15 who were unlawfully killed had to be identified, those who were not
16 killed in combat? Did anyone draw your attention to that, that there
17 were different times involved as far as deaths were concerned and burials
18 as well?
19 A. I'm aware that the conflict extended for some particular time. I
20 don't believe there was conflict in the area of Branjevo military farm,
21 but I have absolutely no evidence to indicate that bodies other than
22 those killed following the fall of Srebrenica executed at the
23 Branjevo military farm were placed in the Branjevo military farm mass
24 grave and then removed to secondary graves. Part of the work that we
25 undertook, that the experts undertook, was to identify that the grave we
1 were examining was (a) connected to Srebrenica, and (b) showed no
2 evidence of being an amalgam of other graves or a grave that was used
3 over years. There was no evidence of that in the graves that we
5 Q. Thank you. In the statements of Drazen Erdemovic, did you find
6 the following information: that on that day the guards had informed him
7 that there had been burials there beforehand as well? So it's the
8 plural, "burials."
9 A. I have no recollection of that evidence from Mr. Erdemovic or any
10 other person.
11 Q. Well, Mr. Erdemovic confirmed that here as well in this
12 courtroom, that he had been informed about that, that the guard had told
13 him that there had been burials there earlier on as well.
14 All right. Now I'm going to ask you something else, Mr. Manning.
15 Do you know what the situation was like in Srebrenica during those three
16 and a half years? Do we agree that there was no public transportation
17 there? Do we agree that banks were not operating there?
18 A. Your Honours, I only know of the circumstances in Srebrenica from
19 speaking to witnesses and examining video and photographic records. I
20 know that it was particularly difficult, that there were some records of
21 near starvation, and I completely accept that the normal functions of
22 government would have been either non-existent or barely operating and
23 delivered by the UN in -- in some measure.
24 Q. Thank you. At one point you said, and I can find that if you
25 don't confirm it for me now, that many things complicated the
1 investigation there. Can you enumerate that for us? What were the
2 things that made your work more complicated -- or, rather, establishing
3 the truth in the Srebrenica case?
4 A. The sheer volume of the executions made it a long-term
5 investigation. Perhaps you're referring to the fact that the primary
6 graves were disturbed. Had we simply examined non-robbed, non-disturbed
7 primary graves, we would have had intact bodies, and we would have been
8 able to (a) count them, and (b) probably identify them much more quickly.
9 In trying to hide the graves, the robbing of the graves broke up
10 the bodies, tore the bodies apart and made not only the identification of
11 those people very difficult but significantly increased the number of
12 crime scenes that we had to examine. Had the primary mass graves not
13 been touched, we probably could have exhumed them in a short time of a
14 year or two and worked on the findings from those exhumations and
16 Q. Apart from that, was everything in order? Did you know that
17 experts had serious objections to the correctness and regularity of the
18 investigations there, and even Haglund himself called the 1996
19 investigations a three-ring circus? Also, there were serious objections
20 with respect to Haglund's work, too.
21 A. Your Honours, I'm aware of the allegations against Dr. Haglund.
22 They were dealt with prior to my arrival at the ICTY, and I wasn't part
23 of those issues, but in no way did I see any significant irregularities,
24 any significant criticism of the work that flowed from Dr. Haglund's
25 reports to the Chambers and from the other experts, Professor Wright,
1 Mr. Baraybar, Dr. Clark, et cetera. I don't have first-hand knowledge of
2 the issues that Dr. Haglund faced, but I don't believe that there was
3 dissent thereafter in relation to the exhumation/autopsy process and how
4 it was conducted.
5 Q. For the participants, Mr. Haglund, in the Popovic case, on
6 pages 19065 through -068, said that these investigations from 1996 were a
7 three-ring circus. Do you know, Mr. Manning, that Dr. Snow, who is a
8 highly prominent forensic anthropologist of world renown, said that these
9 things done in 1996 were "sloppy science"?
10 A. I don't recall that specific quote. I was aware of, broadly, the
11 allegations concerning Dr. Haglund. They'd been dealt with before I
12 attended the Tribunal, and I didn't examine them thereafter, so I can't
13 comment on that particular comment except to say that I didn't see
14 evidence of that in my examination of the documents produced by
15 Dr. Haglund and his team, acknowledging that I'm not a forensic expert or
16 an anthropologist.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I see the time
18 Excellency. Should I go on or --
19 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. We'll take a break for --
20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can I just raise two small points in less
23 than a minute. The first point is the Prosecution does not oppose the
24 Defence request to have assistance of defence expert in courtroom for
25 Butler testimony, and the second point is I just want to remind everyone
1 that Mr. Djurdjevic also has to finish tomorrow, the next witness.
2 JUDGE KWON: My information -- that he could remain with us a bit
3 in the morning -- on the morning of Wednesday.
4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
5 JUDGE KWON: But that's changed.
6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No. Tomorrow is Wednesday. I just wanted
7 to mention, because we only spoke today about Mr. Manning to have to
8 conclude tomorrow, but Mr. Djurdjevic as well.
9 JUDGE KWON: But he has to return then, if we cannot finish him
11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Thank you.
13 We'll take a break for 25 minutes and resume at 20 to 6.00.
14 --- Recess taken at 5.13 p.m.
15 --- On resuming at 5.43 p.m.
16 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, while the logistical
17 concerns should not affect the proper time for cross-examination, we will
18 do our utmost to accommodate the situations of the witnesses. For today,
19 if necessary, we'll extend our sitting until up to 7.20 or 7.30,
20 depending on the situation, and tomorrow we decided to sit in an extended
21 format, i.e., 9.00 to 3.00. Then I will hope that that could solve the
23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic. Please continue.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. The Defence will
1 respond to all of this.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Mr. Manning, please do not feel attacked at any point in time.
4 I'm not attacking you or anyone else. I would just like us to do away
5 with all this confusion. And now I'm going to put to you what my thesis
6 is. My thesis is that this was a theatre of war for almost 45 months.
7 People lost their lives there, and these people were buried -- I mean,
8 you would bury those who belonged to the other side in mass graves,
9 whereas you'd bury your own in family graves.
10 Were you informed about these deaths there and that people who
11 lost their lives in combat were buried in mass graves?
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Mitchell.
13 MR. MITCHELL: Mr. President, I'm sorry for interrupting
14 immediately, but first I'd like to clarify "the people lost their lives
15 there," and secondly, Mr. Karadzic was given a chance to cross-examine
16 Erdemovic last week and this was never the case that was put to him, and
17 I think it's inappropriate for now. We tried to push Mr. Karadzic on
18 what his specific case was last week and he wouldn't put a case to
19 Mr. Erdemovic, and to now suggest that the bodies in any of these graves
20 or particularly at Branjevo Farm are combat I think is inappropriate when
21 he didn't put it to that particular witness.
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Mr. Karadzic, you heard Mr. Mitchell's
23 intervention. Yes. Please reformulate in a more precise manner or put
24 one question at a time.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Excellency, may I just
2 Last time I did not want to admit something that Mr. Mitchell
3 wanted to get from me. What he has to --
4 JUDGE KWON: Please proceed. Put one question at a time to the
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Do you know, Mr. Mitchell, did you know that people lost their
9 lives during those 45 months and that the victims of the other side were
10 buried by their adversaries in mass graves through so-called sanitisation
12 JUDGE KWON: You're now referring to the specific Branjevo Farm,
13 do you -- are you?
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, no, no. This entire area that
15 Mr. Manning dealt with, this entire war zone.
16 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, I accept that many people were killed
17 and burials took place, no doubt some mass burials. We saw no evidence
18 that the Srebrenica graves contained bodies from a previous era. We saw
19 no specific evidence that the bodies in the mass graves were not executed
20 and buried within those mass graves which were hidden. They were not, in
21 my view, "asanacija" or a cleansing of the -- of the battleground. They
22 were clandestinely dug primary mass graves which held the bodies of, in
23 many cases, victims who were bound or blindfolded or both and shot.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. We will get to that, Mr. Manning. Tell us now, please, did you
1 ever see executions carried out by shrapnel and were there any victims
2 here that had been killed by shrapnel?
3 A. There was evidence from the chief archaeologist Dr. Wright and
4 from the anthropologist Chris Lawrence and also Dr. Clark at that some
5 bodies, particularly from Glogova 1 and 2, Ravnice, and Zeleni Jadar
6 graves bore shrapnel injury, that they had charring and they were burnt
7 and that the bodies had been disfigured by explosion, and there was some
8 evidence clearly of explosions at Pilica Dom and Kravica warehouse.
9 Q. Let us look at this, Mr. Manning. You said that in addition to
10 Muslim ritual objects, you did not find any of another provenance. For
11 example, you didn't find any Christian objects. Were there any
12 Christians in these graves?
13 A. I didn't -- sorry, the whole team did not find specific evidence
14 of any other religion except Islam within the artefacts located on the
15 bodies and within the graves.
16 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like to show you one of these -- that is
17 2478, 65 ter. So I'd like to show you an example of a Serb buried there.
18 Can you explain that? How else would a Serb be in a mass graves except
19 by way of "asanacija," sanitisation of the terrain?
20 Do you have any explanation? How would a Serb get there? How
21 would a Serb get into a mass grave unless it was a question of
22 sanitisation, not being recognised by Serbs?
23 A. I'm sorry, I believed you were going to show me something, but I
24 don't know of any Serb victim who was confirmed to be in a Srebrenica
25 mass grave.
1 Q. Can we take a look at Lazete 1, page 17. 523. Please take a
2 look at that. 523, Nusret Zimic with a traffic licence for a particular
3 vehicle, and then there's another one, 523, Gojko Polic. That's what it
4 says. Obviously they did not recognise him and they buried him during
5 the sanitisation of the terrain.
6 Do you have any information about that? Do you know how come a
7 Serb was part of this execution, if there was one, and how come there was
8 a Serb in a Srebrenica unit?
9 A. Your Honours, the document Mr. Karadzic is --
10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Just a second. We can collapse B/C/S.
11 That's the second item in the number Lazete 1, 523, ID document,
12 something, yes.
13 THE WITNESS: The document is one that I produced, and what it
14 shows is that on the body, Lazete 1, 523, there was found an
15 identification document titled "Registration number," and the name on
16 that document was Polic, Gojko. That doesn't indicate that that
17 individual was in the grave. It indicates that document was in the grave
18 in the possession of a victim.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. And how would the victim have that if it were a Tuzla licence or
22 A. Well, firstly, I don't know why that person would have that
23 identification document, but I need to correct myself. Without checking
24 the complete number, in those -- in that time, the numbering system was
25 somewhat different so that item 523 might have been a document loose in
1 the grave rather than on a body. In later instances, I would know from
2 the number. We would need to check that, but this indicates to me that
3 that document was found in the Lazete 2 mass grave.
4 JUDGE KWON: What does that the highlight or emboldened
5 characters mean?
6 THE WITNESS: Why are some of the entries emboldened?
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
8 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, I don't actually know, and I'm not
9 quite sure if that's an artefact of the --
10 JUDGE KWON: If you show the upper part of it. Is that, "The
11 highlighted entries indicate names located in part or whole in the ICRC
12 list of missing from Srebrenica."
13 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. I do recall now. So the
14 emboldened is entries that are located in the ICRC missing list; that is,
15 an individual listed as missing from Srebrenica or the closest match to
16 that name that we could find.
17 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
18 Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Mr. Manning, could you please take a look at this, line 3,
21 Lenjinac Husein. He has a cheque-book and a personal ID. Over those
22 three years, had a bank been working in Srebrenica and could people pay
23 by using cheques?
24 A. I don't know, but I suspect not.
25 Q. You thank you. Please take a look at 514. Again this is a bank
2 A. Yes, I accept that.
3 Q. Please look at 567. It is a health insurance card, and health
4 insurance did not function. Everything had to be paid for. In
5 Srebrenica there was no health insurance.
6 A. Your Honours, I -- I think Mr. Karadzic is referring to 582, and
7 I accept that. If I may, I've examined these documents and seen that
8 some of the documents relate to periods well preceding the fall of
9 Srebrenica. Some documents went back clearly to the individual's
10 grandfather or family, and I assume that this individual who was born
11 in -- I'm sorry, I notice that there are very old individuals within the
12 grave, and I recall some of the documentation was 10 and 20, and 30 and
13 40 years old.
14 JUDGE KWON: Item 567 also has health insurance card,
15 Mr. Manning.
16 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Thank you. Have a look at 634, please, identification card from
19 Rogatica. A man from Rogatica participated in the fighting. He was
20 killed and buried when the terrain was being cleared. Do you have any
21 proof that things were different, because people from Rogatica didn't
22 flee to Srebrenica. The fate of Rogatica was different.
23 A. Your Honours, I can't comment on -- I can't comment on -- on that
24 only to say that that individual was located within a mass grave which we
25 clearly identified to be connected to the fall of Srebrenica and which
1 contained the bodies of victims who were bound and, in some cases,
2 blindfolded and executed.
3 Q. Thank you. Mr. Manning, do you know that POWs couldn't hold on
4 to their passports? Have a look at the last entry on this page. It
5 refers to passport 641. I think the layout I have is somewhat different.
6 Have a look at 641, passport number 2511 -- it's the eighth entry from
7 the bottom.
8 A. Yes, I see that entry and I've examined those items. The
9 majority of the bodies we found in the graves had some form of
10 identification, normally wallets. That was a very common instance.
11 Q. Thank you. Above that entry there is someone with an ID card and
12 a military ID. The number is 637; isn't that right?
13 A. That's correct, yes.
14 Q. Thank you. We don't have to have a look at the next page. I'm
15 already looking at the following page. Just a moment, please.
16 648, for example, a medical report. Let's see the date. Who is
17 the doctor who drafted this? Have these documents been kept?
18 A. I can't answer that. That's something that the ICTY could
20 In -- in the Lazete grave, many of those documents were handed
21 over to PHR, Physicians for Human Rights, and they worked very heavily on
22 trying to identify the victims, but you would have to ask the ICTY if
23 they still hold that item. There is a photograph.
24 Q. Thank you. You confirmed that you found Dutch newspapers dated
25 April 1995 on one of the victims; isn't that correct?
1 A. That's correct. We found a number of items connected to the
2 Dutch Battalion.
3 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us why would someone have a Dutch
4 newspaper on him or herself for three and a half months and take this
5 newspaper with him or her if that person was captured into captivity?
6 What sort of an explanation could you provide for this? What is the
8 A. Your Honours, to my knowledge some of those newspapers were cut
9 into small squares. We assumed that they were used as cigarette paper,
10 and the photographs of those items would show you that they were small
11 pieces of newsprint. As to why they kept them, I can't answer.
12 Q. Thank you. But you did not say that these were cut-outs. You
13 said that there was a Dutch newspaper that was found. The date on the
14 newspaper was April. You saw the date. You saw the month. So it was a
15 whole newspaper; isn't that correct?
16 A. No, I'm sorry, that's not correct, although that's not to say
17 that there was not a complete page among the tens of thousands of
18 artefacts. But I specifically recall a Dutch newspaper cut in, what I
19 assumed, to be cigarette-paper size.
20 Q. Could we please see page 19. Just a minute. The matter is a
21 religious one. No. It's lower down. 471. Silver engraved -- a silver
22 cigarette box. You also came across silver pocket watches, and so on and
23 so forth; isn't that correct?
24 A. That's correct, yes.
25 Q. Thank you. Now let's have a look at what you put under the
1 column "Religious Artefacts." You have prayer beads and then there is a
2 triangular cotton bag. Do you know what the purpose of that bag is? Did
3 your hosts in Bosnia inform you of the customs of war in our country?
4 A. I'm not sure I understand the question.
5 Q. For example, did they tell you what a Muslim fighter, what a
6 Serbian fighter, would have on themselves, what they would do, what sort
7 of customs they had, amulets, religious inscriptions, other sort of
8 ribbons? Did anybody tell you about such things? Takbirs?
9 A. I'm not sure I discussed it at length, but I did some research as
10 to what the items we located within the grave were. I found out what a
11 muska was and that these items of small copies of the Koran or small
12 paragraphs from the Koran were routinely carried by people of the Muslim
13 faith, and I saw those sort of documents and pieces of material within
14 the mass graves.
15 Q. Thank you. And now on the next page we have prayer beads.
16 That's clear, although you find prayer beads in almost all religions;
17 isn't that correct?
18 A. Yes. I would accept that, to my knowledge, Christian and Muslim
19 religious people have prayer beads.
20 Q. Thank you. Now let us have a look at the following: There are
21 these pouches or -- do you know that these things are used to keep ritual
22 objects, religious inscriptions, religious artefacts, and so on and so
24 A. Yes. And where we could identify what the text was or the
25 artefact was, we would indicate it. And as I said, the only religion
1 that we could confirm was Islam.
2 Q. Thank you. Can we have a look at the following page. I'm not
3 sure it's the same one. Is that page 12? We saw the reference to the
4 Koran. You confirmed that.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What page is this.
6 JUDGE KWON: The previous page, if you are referring to
7 "Miniature Koran in red plastic box." Previous page.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, and we went back to the
9 previous page. Could we see page 20 now. Could we see the following
10 page. Could we see the following page, please.
11 Could I see the number, please, the ERN number.
12 JUDGE KWON: Do you have B/C/S version, Mr. Karadzic, in front of
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I have the B/C/S version.
15 JUDGE KWON: Why don't you upload both then.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see page 20 in the Serbian
17 version now.
18 JUDGE KWON: Lazete 2C.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Please have a look at it. 471, a pocket watch, was found, a
21 silver pocket watch on a chain; isn't that correct?
22 A. Your Honours, I can see the B/C/S version, but I remember from
23 the English version, yes, and it was engraved "Tunnel Krizevci 5/3/1991."
24 Q. Krizevci, yes. It's page 19 in the English version.
25 JUDGE KWON: The page we were looking at just before, yes.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we please see the
2 following page.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Have a look at this. The following page in the Serbian, please.
5 That's it in the Serbian version.
6 Have a look at how many passports there were with these people.
7 There were driving licenses, a number of letters, and at least three
8 passports, a bank receipt, a bank document from the Sarajevo
9 agricultural -- the Sarajevo Economic Bank and so on and so forth.
10 Mr. Manning, did you know that a POW couldn't have a passport on
11 himself and that the detainees in the detention unit here similarly don't
12 have their passports on them?
13 A. I would accept that. However, our investigation, witness
14 statements, the exhumations work, indicated that these individuals had
15 been captured and executed in possession of those documents. I don't
16 know why they were not removed. There was a consistency in all the
17 graves that the majority of the victims had some identification material
18 with them or some personal, small personal effects. I believe that
19 Nova Kasaba 99 was the only grave in which we found significant
20 belongings, some bags, but the majority of them had what they had on
22 Q. Thank you. Do you know that accusations were levelled against
23 Serbian policemen or troops or individuals, according to which after
24 people were captured they would take the passports and other valuables
25 from these captives? So how can we reconcile these two claims? How can
1 we reconcile this claim with the fact that people had, well, both
2 passports and valuables on them?
3 A. Your Honours, if I give an example from Kravica warehouse. The
4 survivor who may have given evidence to the Chamber indicated he was
5 captured or gave himself up. He was held on Sandici meadow. He was then
6 taken the approximate kilometre to Kravica warehouse where the execution
7 took place. He didn't indicate, from my recollection, that he was
8 thoroughly searched.
9 Other accounts from survivors indicate the same thing. And I do
10 accept that accounts during the war indicate that prisoners and others
11 would have material removed from them. In this instance, the bodies were
12 found with their identification documents and minor artefacts in their
13 possession in the majority of cases.
14 Q. Thank you. First of all, Mr. Manning, let me ask you whether you
15 agree with the following: Did you find out that up -- that the killing
16 in Kravica took place after an incident? Goods or items weren't listed
17 or taken. The detainees were kept, and after the incident these people
18 were killed. Were you aware of this fact?
19 A. I'm aware that the men were taken to the warehouse and detained
20 there and they were executed there en masse, and I'm aware, although I
21 wasn't part of that investigation, of an individual who had - and I'm
22 trying to remember - either tried to grab a weapon or taken a weapon or
23 attempted to take a weapon and that's when the executions commenced, but
24 I wasn't involved in that part of the investigation. It was after I
1 Q. Thank you. For your information, he was killed although he went
2 to light up a cigarette. They weren't treated as POWs, Mr. Manning.
3 They were being kept, and this is how had happened?
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the following page.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Mr. Manning, do you know that Islamic fighters, even our Serbian
7 fighters, wear ribbons, ritual ribbons, around their heads, and the
8 Muslims have ribbons on which you have the Tegbir inscription from the
9 Koran or their mother's embroider their ribbons. These ribbons are
10 called mother's halal, and they are used by these soldiers when they go
11 to war. Were you aware of this fact?
12 A. No, I wasn't.
13 Q. That's why I'm asking you about this. Did the hosts, the local
14 people provide you with information on everything over there? Please
15 have a look at how these ribbons were used, these ribbons that were
16 sometimes used as blindfolds. Sometimes you refer to them as ribbons
17 that might be used as blindfolds. Have a look at what they look like.
18 The fourth and the fifth from the bottom with the serrated edge, and then
19 it says another one with a serrated edge. 394, pink cotton ribbon, and a
20 blue ribbon for hats.
21 Can you imagine anyone who wants to shoot people and then
22 prepares all these ribbons that he could blindfold the person without
23 tying up that person's hands?
24 A. Your Honours, the items that Mr. Karadzic is referring to, I
25 examined each and every one of them. I believe that the items
1 represented here are blindfolds. In no way was there evidence that any
2 of those items were (a) marked with any Islamic text, or (b) produced as
3 a scarf or a ribbon. The majority of the items were scrap cloth,
4 particularly looking as if they had been used in a process, an industrial
5 process, perhaps covering furniture, perhaps items of clothing. They
6 were scraps of cloth, and they were tied in many, many instances around
7 the head of the individuals.
8 I did not see anything that would indicate to me or to the
9 experts who examined the blindfolds that they were in any way (a) a
10 religious item, and (b) used as a headscarf or covering. They were
11 scraps of cloth which were not, what I would consider, being produced by
12 mothers for their sons. They were also tied, in the instances that I
13 saw, very strongly around the head of the individuals, and in a
14 significant number of the items I found what I believed to be human hair,
15 clumps of hair, caught in the knot. And I also would refer to testimony
16 of survivors, for instance, from Orahovac, who indicated that they were
17 blindfolded, and also I believe from memory at the dam at Petkovci. But
18 certainly in Orahovac, and I'm not sure if the Chamber has heard from
19 that witness.
20 Q. Thank you. Whose hair would be tied up with a ribbon used by a
22 A. In the instances that I saw, I saw bodies in some of the graves
23 which still had some of their hair on their skulls, and you could see
24 that that hair was caught up in the knot of the blindfold. And I'm not
25 an expert on human hair, but when I examined the blindfolds, I saw what I
1 believe to be human hair within the knots and I'm assuming that that's
2 the human hair from the head which that blindfold was on.
3 Q. Is it correct that there were satin and velvet ribbons, these
4 ribbons of very expensive material? Dr. Christopher Lawrence confirmed
5 here before this Court that the material used was fairly expensive. Did
6 you have any such information?
7 MR. MITCHELL: Mr. President, if I could just get a cite for
8 that. I don't recall Mr. Lawrence giving that evidence.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If you don't remember, we'll find
10 it, but I'm familiar with this case, and I'm sure you're familiar with it
11 better than I am. He said that. He confirmed that it was rather
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Is it true that there was shiny material that was used, satin and
16 A. Your Honours, I don't remember velvet, and I wouldn't say the
17 material was satin. One of the experts described the material as having
18 a sheen, that being somewhat shiny, and I accept that, but as I said
19 before, that material that could be referred to as shiny was in -- in
20 such a distinct pattern that you could see it had been cut from a -- from
21 a square of cloth, and the inside of that cloth had been used for
22 something else, and the scalloping around the edge of the cloth indicated
23 that the middle of the square of cloth had been cut out. So this
24 material, whether it be shiny or expensive was an off-cut from another
25 process. It was scrap material in many cases.
1 Q. Please have a look at the entry 470, which is entry number 8 from
2 the bottom. It says, "Pink satin-like material - patterned." And in
3 many cases the edges were scalloped or serrated. Do you know what this
4 means when you say it was scalloped or serrated?
5 JUDGE KWON: Before you answer. Mr. Mitchell.
6 MR. MITCHELL: Your Honour, just to be fair. Dr. Lawrence did
7 say -- he was asked about a particular piece of fabric [overlapping
8 speakers] expensive.
9 JUDGE KWON: He answered yes somewhat.
10 MR. MITCHELL: Correct. At transcript 22474.
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes, I located it.
12 THE WITNESS: Yes. The scalloped edges was the pattern and how
13 it was described. It was roughly cut. It wasn't sewn. And I liken it,
14 if you take a handkerchief and place it over a glass tightly held, if you
15 cut a line around the glass, the remaining material that you have would
16 have an irregular scalloped pattern where the material was bunched up,
17 and that's what we saw in those scalloped-edge pieces of material, and
18 they were not embroidered finished, they were off -cuts.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Well, let's go through these things here and see what it says.
21 Have a look at 470. Does it say pink satin-like material with a pattern?
22 A. Yes, it does.
23 Q. Thank you. Was there embroidered material? I don't know how
24 this is going to be interpreted.
25 A. Some of the blindfolds had an embroidered flour pattern in them.
1 It was a small three- or four-lobed flower which had been sewn by machine
2 into the material, and I think it had holes in the flower. And that was
3 repeated across the material. And again, those -- the majority of those
4 strips of cloth appeared to be the off-cut of a process, that they were
5 the bits left behind when something else was produced, the scrap
7 Q. How did you establish that? After that much time being in the
8 country itself, how were you able to establish that?
9 A. If you examine the blindfolds, and there are photographs within
10 my report and in other reports, when the blindfolds were examined at the
11 mortuary, they would be cleaned, photographed, and in some instances the
12 blindfolds would be pulled out in the shape of a square and you could see
13 that they were clearly the leftover from some process.
14 We examined the blindfolds, the cloth, and Dr. Maljaars examined
15 them, and there are photographs that show the blindfold in that state, in
16 that frame with the inside missing, in many instances.
17 Q. Mr. Manning, did you know that a warrior carries the presence of
18 a female, be it a mother or sister? Let's look at 23632, 65 ter,
19 photograph number 4.
20 Did you know that people carried something with them like a
21 mother's halal? If your mother presented you with one, if you were
22 killed in combat, you go straight to heaven. Were you aware of that?
23 A. No, not specifically.
24 Q. Let's look at photograph number 4 from 65 ter 23632. Volume 2.
25 Volume number 2. The ERN number is 0705-2817. Page 9 in e-court.
1 Have a look at this. Are you trying to say that a Serb soldier
2 would have a scarf like this in his equipment and used it when necessary?
3 A. No. I'm saying that that was a blindfold, and it was put on the
4 victim's head prior to execution. This was one of the pieces of cloth
5 that we found and identified as a blindfold, or it could be a ligature,
6 if I look at the number, but I believe it's a blindfold.
7 Q. Are you familiar with the culture of Serbs and Muslims and the
8 way they live? If so, would you ascribe this particular colour and
9 design to Serbs or Muslims?
10 A. I don't see anything that would indicate a religious affinity in
11 that piece of cloth.
12 Q. Thank you. Do you know what colours are sported by Serb women as
13 opposed to Muslim women, and how would you explain a Serb soldier having
14 something like this at hand?
15 A. I'm not aware of the colours sported by Serb women as opposed to
16 Muslim women, and I'm not aware that this blindfold was carried by a Serb
18 Q. Thank you. Can we have a look at photograph 61, which is at
19 page 64 in e-court in hard copy. Page 64, photograph 61. The ERN number
20 is 2874.
21 Did you see some fighters, including Serb fighters, wearing
22 scarves or bands around their heads on any photographs or footage?
23 A. If we're talking about the conflict if Bosnia, yes, and I believe
24 some of the members of the Serb forces who entered Srebrenica had
25 headscarves. I think black. This individual in the image is from the
1 Lazete -- Lazete 2 mass grave and is a blindfold on his head.
2 Q. Is this a soldier, Mr. Manning, and what is on his chest and
3 around his waist?
4 A. I don't know if he's a soldier. I assume he's of military age.
5 He may very well have been a soldier. Without checking the autopsy
6 reports, I can't say specifically. It looks like clothing. It looks
7 like trousers. If it was military clothing or equipment, it would be
8 noted on the autopsy report.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have a look at page 91?
11 Sorry, page 94, photograph 91.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. While we are waiting for it, could you explain how Serb soldiers
14 had these objects on them, the ones that you termed blindfolds? Page 94,
16 If you were familiar with our customs, would you ascribe this
17 item to a Serb or a Muslim; in other words, if that person was given it
18 by a Serb woman or a Muslim woman?
19 A. I can't answer that question other than to say that that item was
20 found in a mass grave. I believe it to be a blindfold.
21 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, your question was whether witness
22 could explain how Serb soldiers had these objects on them, the ones you
23 term blindfolds like this. Is it your case that Serb soldiers always
24 carried with them the object that can be used, properly used, as
25 blindfolds? Not in this colour.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I assert, Your Excellency, that
2 they never did. It was not common to Serbs.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Mr. Manning, can you tell us how come one of these alleged
5 blindfolds was found in the pocket of a victim?
6 A. I can't tell you that. I can assume, and there is some evidence
7 from the survivors that they took their blindfolds off, and I assume that
8 that's what happened, but I can't -- and without a specific reference, I
9 can't answer that.
10 Q. Do you want me to find it? Do you remember specifying that a
11 blindfold was found in a person's pocket?
12 A. I can accept that -- I don't recall that, but I can accept that.
13 And as I say, I can only assume why.
14 Q. If I told you that religious objects were not to be shown to
15 nonbelievers or stepped on, would you see it as something familiar? Does
16 it ring a bell?
17 A. Your Honours, I currently work within the Middle East. I'm
18 familiar with the people of the region, particularly the Islamic people.
19 In some cases that religious imperative may be applied. In my time in
20 Bosnia I did not find -- and I do not mean to be disrespectful, I did not
21 find the Bosnian Muslims to be particularly religious or to be
22 particularly ardent about such things, but I'm not an expert on
23 Bosnian Muslim religious practices.
24 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, just for -- purely for planning
25 purpose, I'd like to inquire of you how much more time do you need to
1 conclude your cross-examination.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd need another hour, I'm afraid.
3 JUDGE KWON: In that case, we will take a break for five minutes
4 and resume 10 to 7.00.
5 --- Recess taken at 6.43 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 6.50 p.m.
7 JUDGE KWON: For the remainder of this session, we'll be sitting
8 pursuant to Rule 15 bis.
9 Yes. Mr. Karadzic, we'll sit up to, if necessary, 7.20 or 7.30,
10 but I expect you to conclude before then.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll do my best, Your Excellency.
12 Can we have page 103.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. I'll show you just one more. Page 103. Photograph number 100.
15 Zoom in, please.
16 Can you see the jagged edge and the pattern? Could you provide
17 any other explanation other than this being a religious item? We can
18 zoom in. You can see that it has a clear pattern. How do you explain
20 A. Your Honour, this is what I've been discussing. A great majority
21 of the blindfolds were exactly the same as this material in different
22 colours, and I've always assumed that they came from the same source,
23 that they're scrap material.
24 And, Mr. Karadzic, the scalloping on the edges of the blindfold
25 are quite clear. You can see that they are cut edges. They haven't been
1 embroidered. They haven't been end-stitched. If you would have spread
2 this blindfold out, you would see that it formed the outside of a square
3 piece of cloth, and the material in the middle of that cloth has been cut
4 away. And if you found that material, you'd find that the scalloped
5 edges matched and this is a piece of cloth that was repeated in this form
6 across many of the graves in startling similarity.
7 Q. And how do you know that, Mr. Manning, and is what you are saying
8 the only explanation? Are other explanations possible?
9 A. I have physically examined each and every one of these items.
10 I've seen the shape that -- that if you were to spread that blindfold
11 out, you would see the same shape that you see in Dr. Maljaars' report
12 and the photographs that I produced. It is clearly an off-cut of some
13 other process, but what's more striking is that many, many, many other
14 blindfolds were exactly the same construction, and they were tied around
15 the heads of individuals who had been executed. In some instances the
16 same material was used as a ligature.
17 Q. We'll get to that. Are you trying to say, Mr. Manning, that
18 these extensions, these tassels of sorts, are not identical and at equal
19 distances and that they were created randomly?
20 A. That's correct, yes.
21 Q. That they are identical and equidistant or not?
22 A. No. As I said before, they are off-cuts, and those scalloped
23 edges are irregular, and it is my belief and I've produced exactly the
24 same pattern that the material was bunched together, it was cut off, and
25 that's the scrap that's left. It is not embroidered. It is not
1 equidistant. They are not tassels. It is not in any way, in my view, a
2 religious artefact. And, in fact, this particular type of blindfold was
3 in pink, blue, and I can't recall the third colour. It certainly wasn't
4 Islamic green, and none of the blindfolds or cloth ligatures that I saw
5 had any Islamic writing references or material on them whatsoever.
6 Q. Mr. Manning, if you were in the Middle East, would you be able to
7 notice that Christians and Jews there prefer darker colours and
8 monochromatic clothing, whereas Muslims, and especially Muslim women,
9 choose coloured patterns and lighter colours?
10 A. Your Honours, I don't think I can speak particularly well on that
11 matter. The Arab women that I know of in the region predominantly wear
12 black -- black abayas. Some of the men wear white. Some of the men
13 where colours. Some of them have different headdresses. They are like
14 all of us, different people and different clothing requirements.
15 Q. Thank you. Can we agree that you found the so-called blindfolds
16 which did not have a knot; that is to say, that were in a single piece?
17 A. Some of the blindfolds had been broken up, had been damaged. If
18 I could not establish that there was a blindfold, i.e., it was the same
19 shape as the head, it was a round circle of cloth bound in a knot, I
20 would not accept it as a blindfold. And the photos you see of -- of
21 blindfolds which have been spread out like this were in our examination
22 of them at the mortuary, that they were cleaned, photographed, and spread
23 out, the knot removed, to -- to show that, in this case, the similarity
24 with other cloths.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have look at 65 ter 2478,
2 although it does have a P number. I won't dwell on this any longer. I
3 won't show any more photographs since I have no time. Page 24 in hard
4 copy. In the English version it may be different, but -- well, 24 in the
5 Serbian, and we'll manage with the other one.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. The top of the page, 596. A band, a cloth band, without a knot,
8 pale in colour. How come it was without a knot?
9 JUDGE KWON: Two pages ahead.
10 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, accepting --
11 JUDGE KWON: It says, "Discoloured strip of cloth - minus knot."
12 Bottom of the page probably. That may be it.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 596, yes.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Is it sewn or is it this circle? You said you used to find these
16 circles made of cloth.
17 A. Your Honour, I would probably need to check the autopsy report
18 and the photograph, but I note that I've indicated that it is on the head
19 of the individual and it may be that the knot has fallen away and is in
20 the body bag. It may be that the knot has simply rotted away, but I
21 indicated on these documents where the blindfold or ligature was found.
22 In this instance, I've said it was on the person's head. Clearly there's
23 a photograph and a record of that appearing as a blindfold. And if you
24 look further up that column, you see that I've indicated item 580 was
25 located within the grave. So in this instance we have a blindfold which
1 doesn't have a knot, one of the many hundreds, that is on someone's head.
2 But, again, if I could see the photograph of the item or the autopsy
3 report that would help me recall.
4 Q. Can we have the next page in English, please, and please take a
5 look at this. Look at all the kinds of bandannas you can find here
6 without a knot, embroidered with floral embroidery, and a few are green.
7 A few are green, Mr. Manning. There are some made of satin. Please look
8 at your very own paper here.
9 How did you rule this out? How did you rule out something that
10 you had not even been informed about, namely this possibility that these
11 were gifts from women and ritual artefacts? How could a Serb soldier
12 have this many embroidered cloths?
13 A. Your Honours, my -- my view is that the blindfolds and cloth
14 ligatures that were the same, which matched, appeared to come from a
15 manufacturing process. I don't know, and I assume that if I had an
16 intention to blindfold a significant number of people, I would go to a
17 clothing factory, and I would grab a great handful of cloths and I would
18 use those as blindfolds. And I note some of the items that I've listed
19 there were used opportunistically, a piece of handkerchief, a piece of
20 clothing, a piece of pants. And I've indicated on this document the
21 condition of those items and, more importantly, where they were located.
22 If I've identified the item as a blindfold, it is because there is a
23 photograph of an item on a body and an autopsy report that indicates
24 that, or the blindfold is located within the grave and is in such -- and
25 is documented, and is of such similar construction and shape and has
1 human hair in the knot that it was considered to be a blindfold.
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Mitchell.
3 MR. MITCHELL: Mr. President, the LZ01-596, the discoloured strip
4 of cloth minus the knot, we do actually have a photograph of it here on
5 the -- it's on that large composite. So if there's any further questions
6 on it, we can actually bring that up and the witness can look at it.
7 JUDGE KWON: Would you like to see the picture, Mr. Karadzic?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
10 MR. MITCHELL: It might be better to give the witness the hard
11 copy. The one in e-court isn't particularly good resolution.
12 JUDGE KWON: Can we not -- yes. We don't have any difficulty
13 giving the hard copy to the witness. But why don't we upload it at the
14 same time. What's the e-court number?
15 MR. MITCHELL: Mr. President, it was Exhibit 4508. It's in the
16 far right-hand column, and it's the seventh photo down.
17 JUDGE KWON: 4508.
18 MR. MITCHELL: Yes.
19 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I just need the reference
20 to the body number again, LZ-2.
21 JUDGE KWON: LZ01 --
22 MR. MITCHELL: 596.
23 THE WITNESS: The image has an arrow on it indicating the
24 blindfold in situ on the individual's head; that is, placed on the
25 individual's head. We could check the autopsy report, but normally that
1 arrow would indicate a bullet hole corresponding through the skull with a
2 hole through the blindfold. In this instance, you can see the blindfold
3 adhering to the victim's head, covering his eyes.
4 If you -- if you see it's where the cursor is now.
5 JUDGE KWON: Is that the one?
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, that's the one, Your Honour.
7 I believe -- you can see that this is an image at the mortuary. The
8 white underneath the body is a body bag. These photos were take when the
9 body first arrived at the mortuary, before the body was cleaned up, but
10 the pathologist would look at that body and examine that blindfold and
11 report on that blindfold when he or she examined the body, noting the
12 blindfold and the injuries to the skull.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Could you please indicate which one that is, and where does it
15 say 956? Can we identify that?
16 A. [Marks]
17 Q. There is no arrow there, the one that you referred to. And let
18 us see whether that is a ribbon that is not tied but is braided or sewn.
19 A. I've circled the arrow on that photograph, and without examining
20 the cleaned-up version of that blindfold, I can't tell you the
22 MR. MITCHELL: Mr. President, this is one of the ones. Lazete 1
23 is in Mr. Manning's second or third report. These images of LZ1 are not
24 contained in those -- in the two volumes.
25 JUDGE KWON: If necessary, you can find the original picture.
1 MR. MITCHELL: Yes. We can find the original and then maybe
2 tender it.
3 JUDGE KWON: Or disclose it to the Defence.
4 MR. MITCHELL: Certainly.
5 JUDGE KWON: The Defence should have it by --
6 MR. MITCHELL: They should already have it but we can find it and
7 offer it into evidence.
8 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Could you initial and date it.
9 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE KWON: This will be next Defence exhibit.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D2189, Your Honours.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Let us now deal with what was done here. You said today at one
14 point in time that the Prosecutor -- rather, the investigation from the
15 OTP agreed with the findings. What about the Defence, the Serb side, as
16 a party concerned? Did they agree to anything, and did they take any
17 part in this investigation?
18 A. If -- if I understand the last part of your question, the
19 exhumation and autopsy process was conducted by predominantly the ICTY.
20 We very deliberately excluded nationals from any of the entities being
21 involved in that process. We had no Serbs or Muslims involved -- sorry,
22 Bosnian Serbs or Muslims involved in that exhumation/autopsy process, and
23 I believe that ICMP had some staff from the other entities, but Serb
24 judicial officials or Bosnian judicial officials and investigators were
25 excluded from the exhumation site and the autopsy examination process.
1 Q. After that, you or the Tribunal or the OTP, did you hand over the
2 investigation to the Muslim side from 2001 or whatever it was that you
4 A. Yes. We handed over responsibility for the mass graves to the
5 Bosnian Commission for Missing People -- Persons, and they continued the
6 recovery of the bodies, and the Bosnian court is conducting
7 investigations into Srebrenica. The Office of the Prosecutor handed over
8 investigative files.
9 Q. Thank you. Do you know that out there in Bosnia there is a lot
10 of dispute involved in the work of that commission? The Serb side is
11 challenging all of it, and the Muslim side is interested in portraying
12 things in order to say that the number of victims is as big as possible?
13 A. I'm aware there's a conflict. The number of missing from
14 Srebrenica is being defined by the independent
15 International Commission for Missing Persons, but I'm not up-to-date on
16 the conflict between the various entities.
17 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that you observed that in each and
18 every grave the degree of degradation or decay of the bodies varied to a
19 large degree at that?
20 A. Yes. Most of the graves showed a variance in degrees of
21 decomposition. Perhaps less so at Orahovac 1 because of the condition of
22 the grave, but some bodies in the same grave were completely skeletonised
23 and others were predominantly fleshed.
24 Q. In one and the same grave?
25 A. Yes. For instance, in the Kozluk mass grave, the bodies that
1 were away from the other individuals tended to be completely
2 skeletonised. The ones within the mass of bodies were -- tended to be
3 fleshed. I'm not an expert, but I understand why. And we saw that in
4 various graves. If the body was nearer to the surface, had access to
5 oxygen or the soil conditions were such, the body would decompose
7 Q. I take that into account, that you're not an expert, but tell me,
8 is that the only explanation?
9 A. Yes, it is.
10 Q. But you see, here it is experts who said that that is not the
11 only explanation possible but that there are other explanations that are
12 possible, too.
13 Now I'm asking you about the blindfolds. Are your explanations
14 the only ones, and how did you rule out all others?
15 A. If I can, you asked me if that was the own explanation. Taking a
16 view of the total evidence available, that's the only explanation. Had
17 the bodies come from different time periods and different graves or had
18 been left on the surface to decompose, there would have been evidence of
19 that. If you took the bodies in a mass grave, some were skeletonised,
20 some were fleshed, they were within the same grave, and there was no
21 evidence that they had been buried in a separate incident, separated by
22 months, years.
23 And as to my examination of the blindfolds, every single
24 blindfold that I identified had previously been identified by one of the
25 experts, archaeologists and anthropologists, as a blindfold. I sought to
1 confirm that was documented and was consistent, and if I found a
2 blindfold that did not have a photograph showing it in situ or did not
3 have a complete record, then would I discount that blindfold, because I
4 took a very conservative view of only including items that we could
5 definitively prove the process and the location of.
6 Q. How is it that you established that there is no proof that there
7 were burials in stages, and did you receive any explanation to the effect
8 as to where persons were buried over those 45 months?
9 A. I'm not an archaeologist. I'm not an expert. The experts that I
10 spoke to described the graves to me. They showed me the construction of
11 the graves. They showed me how there was evidence when a grave was
12 disturbed, which is how they know that a primary grave was robbed. But
13 even as a layman I could see that. If there was evidence which showed
14 that there had been multiple burial incidents, that would be obvious in
15 the soil, in the make-up of the grave, in the position of the bodies, in
16 the soil and vegetation that was collected with the bodies. There would
17 be evidence of that difference. And in some instances we found
18 vegetation with the bodies, which is consistent with middle of summer in
19 Bosnia, in that region. Had they been killed at a different time of
20 year, we would expect to see evidence of that. Had they been infested by
21 insects because they were on the surface for months, we would expect to
22 see that. We would find that evidence. I've spoken to the experts.
23 That's my understanding of their process, and as a layman, I saw that
24 within the graves.
25 Q. Thank you. So now you are not conveying your own expert insight
1 but, rather, what others said to you; is that right?
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes. He confirmed that he's not an expert, and
3 you're still putting the questions, inviting him to tell us what he heard
4 from experts. It's about time to conclude, Mr. Karadzic.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. I'll do my best to
6 finish fairly soon.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Tell me, do you know that fighters used to put ribbons on their
9 sleeves and elsewhere on the left and right, and do you know that the
10 ribbons that you saw on a hand were perhaps not ligatures but a ribbon
11 that was used to mark soldiers?
12 A. I'm vaguely aware that some soldiers would use that practice.
13 I'm not aware of it being used predominantly in Bosnia. The ligatures
14 were tightly bound around the wrists of the individuals. They were in
15 the cloth ligatures. They were in the figure of an eight. They bound
16 the hands of the individual, and that individual could not move their
17 arms. I don't believe that they were armbands.
18 Q. Well, we saw in those photographs of yours, Mr. Manning, we saw
19 ribbons at different levels, if you look at the hands and arms. We can
20 look at that, but there's not much time today.
21 Did you see that there were remnants of a ribbon at different
22 levels on a hand or arm?
23 A. No. We didn't find what you would describe as ribbons around the
24 arm or the forearm or the upper arm of individuals. We found cloth
25 ligatures binding both hands, or we found wire ligatures binding both
1 hands, or we found a figure-eight ligature binding one hand and clearly
2 in a shape of a figure-eight where both hands had been passed through
3 that cloth.
4 Q. Tell us, please, the last topic and the last question, do you
5 know people who work at ICMP, Rifet Kasetovic, Zlatan Sabanovic?
6 A. I believe Rifet Kasetovic may be someone I know. I'm not
7 familiar with the other name, but I said before that people from Bosnia,
8 Serbia, Croatia, are employed at ICMP.
9 Q. But this one, Kasetovic is the director, and Sabanovic is also a
10 high official. What about Director Edin Jasaragic does that name ring a
12 A. It does not, Your Honour, but I would accept that Mr. Kasetovic
13 was the director. It rings a memory. Probably the director of the
14 Bosnian commission for missing people rather than the
15 International Commission for Missing Persons.
16 Q. I don't have time to ask you about the other prominent Muslims in
17 that institution. Let me ask you this: Do you know that recently they
18 came out with some corrections and they said that 500 were still living,
19 and then they said that 70 were included there, although they were not
20 victims, and then during the last week or two they came up with the
21 following thesis: That some amputees were include among the dead for no
22 reason whatsoever. There was no justification for that. These people
23 are still living.
24 Were you aware of that?
25 JUDGE KWON: Before you answer, Mr. Manning. Yes, Mr. Mitchell.
1 MR. MITCHELL: Mr. President, I have about three objections to
2 that. One, it's assuming a lot of things that aren't in evidence. Two,
3 if the reference to 500 is a reference to Mirsad Tokaca, that's got
4 nothing to do with ICMP. And three, this reference to during the last
5 week or two, they came up with the thesis, again there's no basis for
6 that in this case. And if Mr. Karadzic wants to put that case to
7 Mr. Manning, I think we need to see some kind of foundation for it, or he
8 can save it and put it to Dr. Parsons, who will be here in the next
9 couple of weeks.
10 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic. Could you break down and ask one
11 question at a time with specific and precise reference, if necessary.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated]
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Do you know, Mr. Manning, that to this day the number has not
16 been established and that as time goes by the number is decreasing?
17 A. No. If I understand you to mean ICMP's DNA analysis, I'm aware
18 that it has been increasing. I would expect it to increase as they
19 continue their investigation, but if I may, to answer your previous
20 question, I deliberately do not examine the court proceedings and
21 testimony before I'm going to be a witness, so I'm not aware of any of
22 those claims against ICMP or the Bosnian commission.
23 Q. Have you heard of the Bosnian commission saying that by mistake
24 some amputees were included in the number of the victims who were dead,
25 whereas these persons are still alive?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Last question. How do you explain this: that at the so-called
3 execution sites -- or, rather, in the graves that are there, there are
4 hundreds and even thousands of shell casings? Does that not indicate
5 that those were the places from where fire was opened and that these were
6 perhaps even trenches, that these were combat positions?
7 A. No. In the majority of cases, there's no evidence of a battle
8 being fought in the remote areas where the execution points were, and the
9 evidence from the experts, which I saw myself, was that the shooters
10 stood in a particular area, fired at the victims, and the rounds ejected
11 in a specific area which was either into the grave or collected up when
12 the grave was made or when the grave was robbed.
13 Q. In the graves and just by the graves, did you find any shell
14 casings? In the graves, too, casings of a large calibre?
15 A. We predominantly found 762 -- 7.62 rounds. We found some shotgun
16 pellets. We found some small-arms rounds. We found one shell case
17 associated with a body at Nova Kasaba 99. We found parts of grenades,
18 and we found what I believe was a part of a rocket propelled grenade
19 within the various graves.
20 Q. How do you explain the fact that there were cases of
21 large-calibre shells in those graves? Who targeted those sites? How did
22 you draw the conclusion that this was a firing position, that there was a
23 fire position from which large-calibre weapons were used to open fire?
24 A. Your Honours, there was one shell case from an
25 anti-aircraft-style weapon found associated with one body in a shallow
1 grave which we assumed was a gun emplacement. It was the only incident
2 that I can recall of that.
3 The other shell cases, and I physically saw evidence, and I'm
4 aware after having fired the same sort of weapon, that an AK-47 will
5 eject in a certain direction. It will eject to the left of the weapon
6 and the shells will normally land in that direction. When you examine
7 where the shell cases were found, they indicated the shooters were
8 standing in a particular location. Those shell cases were generally
9 ejected to a certain area, and then we would find shell cases amongst the
10 bodies within the grave, in the clothing, within the fill of the grave,
11 perhaps pushed into the grave by heavy machinery, and then transported
12 from one site, the primary grave or execution point, to the secondary
14 Q. Sir --
15 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic --
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My last question.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. In the forensic summary, May 2000, page 67, it says that 1.031
19 shell cases were found, and in many places there were tens -- there was a
20 ten or a dozen of them. You found more shell cases than bullets. You
21 found 90 bullet cartridges but you found more shell cases. So my claim
22 is that this wasn't properly investigated and that fire was opened from
23 large-calibre weapons from those positions and trenches were then used in
24 order to bury bodies.
25 A. The shell cases referred to, Your Honours, were predominantly
1 7.62 rounds. They were small shell cases. It's probably the case that a
2 shell case could be a large shell case from an anti-aircraft or tank or
3 similar. That's not what we found. That's not what I was describing.
4 And again, briefly, the archaeologists would establish that it was a
5 rectangular grave with a lamp built by a heavy machine. It was not a
6 fighting trench. That would be very clear. I did not see or read or
7 talk to anyone who indicated that they were defensive trenches in any
9 Q. Are you saying that an ordinary bullet cartridge --
10 JUDGE KWON: We have a stop, otherwise you cannot enter the
12 If absolutely necessary, we can continue, but I am wondering
13 about the quality -- by the line of questioning. I think you exhausted
14 the topic.
15 Do you have re-examination, Mr. Mitchell?
16 MR. MITCHELL: I'd like five minutes, but I don't want to be the
17 difference between keeping the witness here overnight. So --
18 JUDGE KWON: We need to stop here. We can't go -- given the
19 Dutch transportation.
20 MR. MITCHELL: If we need to finish here, then I have nothing
22 JUDGE KWON: Or we can continue tomorrow morning for ten minutes.
23 MR. MITCHELL: No. I'll have nothing.
24 JUDGE KWON: Did you mean to put last question? But I think
25 you -- we need to stop.
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. I was only asking why bullet cartridges were being described as
3 shell cases.
4 A. Your Honours, ballistics expert perhaps would use a different
5 term. A shell case can refer to a small round, it can refer to a big
6 round. It's the casing left over. The bullet is the head. The casing
7 would hold the ammunition, the explosive. It is still correct to call it
8 a shell casing, a bullet shell casing.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.
10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you all, and in particular, thank you,
11 Mr. Manning.
12 Am I being heard?
13 MR. ROBINSON: Can I just offer a special thank to
14 Judge Lattanzi, who has had a particularly long day.
15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Manning, for your coming to The Hague
16 to give your evidence, and I thank all the staff for their kind
18 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE KWON: We will resume tomorrow morning at 9.00.
20 [The witness withdrew]
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.36 p.m.,
22 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 7th day
23 of March, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.